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[tor dot com] Fighting Erasure: Women SF Writers of the 1980s, Part I
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James Nicoll
2018-08-07 14:31:30 UTC
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Fighting Erasure: Women SF Writers of the 1980s, Part I

https://www.tor.com/2018/08/07/fighting-erasure-women-sf-writers-of-the-1980s-part-i/
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Lynn McGuire
2018-08-07 18:46:55 UTC
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Post by James Nicoll
Fighting Erasure: Women SF Writers of the 1980s, Part I
https://www.tor.com/2018/08/07/fighting-erasure-women-sf-writers-of-the-1980s-part-i/
I did read _The Clan of the Cave Bear_ and stopped at that. It did have
some startling moments such as when they were attacking the cave bear
with wooden spears and it was knocking the heads off guys.

Lynn
Dorothy J Heydt
2018-08-07 18:53:44 UTC
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Post by James Nicoll
Post by James Nicoll
Fighting Erasure: Women SF Writers of the 1980s, Part I
https://www.tor.com/2018/08/07/fighting-erasure-women-sf-writers-of-the-1980s-part-i/
I did read _The Clan of the Cave Bear_ and stopped at that. It did have
some startling moments such as when they were attacking the cave bear
with wooden spears and it was knocking the heads off guys.
You did well to stop. There was a thread a while ago in which we
discussed the tawdry, tacky, smarmy plot elements in the whole
series, which is basically a Harlequin romance on steroids with
Stone Age trimmings, and in which the plot consists almost
entirely of the lover and his lass being kept apart by ongoing
misunderstandings for as long as possible.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Leif Roar Moldskred
2018-08-07 19:58:42 UTC
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[SNIP] which is basically a Harlequin romance on steroids with
Stone Age trimmings, and in which the plot consists almost
entirely of the lover and his lass being kept apart by ongoing
misunderstandings for as long as possible.
I'm imagining a stage set with a large central firepit, a few piles of
smilodon furs and seven or eight cave entrances in the background, at
least one of which contains a cave bear.
--
Leif Roar Moldskred
p***@hotmail.com
2018-08-07 20:29:19 UTC
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Post by Leif Roar Moldskred
[SNIP] which is basically a Harlequin romance on steroids with
Stone Age trimmings, and in which the plot consists almost
entirely of the lover and his lass being kept apart by ongoing
misunderstandings for as long as possible.
I'm imagining a stage set with a large central firepit, a few piles of
smilodon furs and seven or eight cave entrances in the background, at
least one of which contains a cave bear.
Of course, the other caves all contain goats.

Peter Wezeman
anti-social Darwinist
Kevrob
2018-08-07 21:21:19 UTC
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Post by Leif Roar Moldskred
[SNIP] which is basically a Harlequin romance on steroids with
Stone Age trimmings, and in which the plot consists almost
entirely of the lover and his lass being kept apart by ongoing
misunderstandings for as long as possible.
I'm imagining a stage set with a large central firepit, a few piles of
smilodon furs and seven or eight cave entrances in the background, at
least one of which contains a cave bear.
Of course, the other caves all contain goats.
Goat a good prize. Zonkalar like goat. Like goat cheese,
like goat milk. Like roast goat.

Kevin R
(channeling Zonkalar)
Dorothy J Heydt
2018-08-07 22:46:31 UTC
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Post by Kevrob
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Post by Leif Roar Moldskred
[SNIP] which is basically a Harlequin romance on steroids with
Stone Age trimmings, and in which the plot consists almost
entirely of the lover and his lass being kept apart by ongoing
misunderstandings for as long as possible.
I'm imagining a stage set with a large central firepit, a few piles of
smilodon furs and seven or eight cave entrances in the background, at
least one of which contains a cave bear.
Of course, the other caves all contain goats.
Goat a good prize. Zonkalar like goat. Like goat cheese,
like goat milk. Like roast goat.
Beat cave bear all hollow.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Kevrob
2018-08-08 01:30:03 UTC
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Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Kevrob
Goat a good prize. Zonkalar like goat. Like goat cheese,
like goat milk. Like roast goat.
Beat cave bear all hollow.
..and as you've told us, they are nifty "lawn mowers."

see: https://xkcd.com/1282/

Kevin R
Dorothy J Heydt
2018-08-08 02:07:01 UTC
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Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Kevrob
Goat a good prize. Zonkalar like goat. Like goat cheese,
like goat milk. Like roast goat.
Beat cave bear all hollow.
..and as you've told us, they are nifty "lawn mowers."
see: https://xkcd.com/1282/
Awwwww.

Lawn mowers that can climb hills.

Like this one.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albany_Hill
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Scott Lurndal
2018-08-08 13:29:07 UTC
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Post by Kevrob
Post by p***@hotmail.com
Post by Leif Roar Moldskred
[SNIP] which is basically a Harlequin romance on steroids with
Stone Age trimmings, and in which the plot consists almost
entirely of the lover and his lass being kept apart by ongoing
misunderstandings for as long as possible.
I'm imagining a stage set with a large central firepit, a few piles of
smilodon furs and seven or eight cave entrances in the background, at
least one of which contains a cave bear.
Of course, the other caves all contain goats.
Goat a good prize. Zonkalar like goat. Like goat cheese,
like goat milk. Like roast goat.
And goat tacos! Yum!
Lynn McGuire
2018-08-08 16:19:13 UTC
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Post by Scott Lurndal
Post by Kevrob
Post by p***@hotmail.com
Post by Leif Roar Moldskred
[SNIP] which is basically a Harlequin romance on steroids with
Stone Age trimmings, and in which the plot consists almost
entirely of the lover and his lass being kept apart by ongoing
misunderstandings for as long as possible.
I'm imagining a stage set with a large central firepit, a few piles of
smilodon furs and seven or eight cave entrances in the background, at
least one of which contains a cave bear.
Of course, the other caves all contain goats.
Goat a good prize. Zonkalar like goat. Like goat cheese,
like goat milk. Like roast goat.
And goat tacos! Yum!
Yes, goat on a stick !

Lynn
Ted Nolan <tednolan>
2018-08-08 16:53:51 UTC
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Post by Scott Lurndal
Post by Kevrob
Post by p***@hotmail.com
Post by Leif Roar Moldskred
[SNIP] which is basically a Harlequin romance on steroids with
Stone Age trimmings, and in which the plot consists almost
entirely of the lover and his lass being kept apart by ongoing
misunderstandings for as long as possible.
I'm imagining a stage set with a large central firepit, a few piles of
smilodon furs and seven or eight cave entrances in the background, at
least one of which contains a cave bear.
Of course, the other caves all contain goats.
Goat a good prize. Zonkalar like goat. Like goat cheese,
like goat milk. Like roast goat.
And goat tacos! Yum!
No potato?

https://joelx.com/35-funniest-latvian-jokes/7926/
--
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Kevrob
2018-08-08 17:45:08 UTC
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Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Post by Scott Lurndal
Post by Kevrob
Post by p***@hotmail.com
Post by Leif Roar Moldskred
[SNIP] which is basically a Harlequin romance on steroids with
Stone Age trimmings, and in which the plot consists almost
entirely of the lover and his lass being kept apart by ongoing
misunderstandings for as long as possible.
I'm imagining a stage set with a large central firepit, a few piles of
smilodon furs and seven or eight cave entrances in the background, at
least one of which contains a cave bear.
Of course, the other caves all contain goats.
Goat a good prize. Zonkalar like goat. Like goat cheese,
like goat milk. Like roast goat.
And goat tacos! Yum!
No potato?
https://joelx.com/35-funniest-latvian-jokes/7926/
Use potato shells to make your goat "tacos," perhaps?

https://www.tasteofhome.com/recipes/taco-potato-shells/

They are using ground beef, presumably because they ate
the last of the goat.

The Jamaicans do wonderful things with goat.

Kevin R
David DeLaney
2018-08-08 11:23:48 UTC
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Post by p***@hotmail.com
Post by Leif Roar Moldskred
[SNIP] which is basically a Harlequin romance on steroids with
Stone Age trimmings, and in which the plot consists almost
entirely of the lover and his lass being kept apart by ongoing
misunderstandings for as long as possible.
I'm imagining a stage set with a large central firepit, a few piles of
smilodon furs and seven or eight cave entrances in the background, at
least one of which contains a cave bear.
Of course, the other caves all contain goats.
Occasionally during the performance there are interludes of Bugs-Bunny-like
enterings from one cave and exitings through another, repeatedly.

Dave, and need I say it? "pursued by a bear"

ps: at one point an extremely anachronistic toy train chugs out of one opening
and into another. there is a pause, after which the actors visibly decide to
ignore it and continue.
--
\/David DeLaney posting thru EarthLink - "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
my gatekeeper archives are no longer accessible :( / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.
Dorothy J Heydt
2018-08-07 20:31:57 UTC
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Post by Leif Roar Moldskred
[SNIP] which is basically a Harlequin romance on steroids with
Stone Age trimmings, and in which the plot consists almost
entirely of the lover and his lass being kept apart by ongoing
misunderstandings for as long as possible.
I'm imagining a stage set with a large central firepit, a few piles of
smilodon furs and seven or eight cave entrances in the background, at
least one of which contains a cave bear.
Take that as a metaphor, and you're pretty much right.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Dimensional Traveler
2018-08-07 21:29:35 UTC
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Post by James Nicoll
Fighting Erasure: Women SF Writers of the 1980s, Part I
https://www.tor.com/2018/08/07/fighting-erasure-women-sf-writers-of-the-1980s-part-i/
I did read _The Clan of the Cave Bear_ and stopped at that.  It did have
some startling moments such as when they were attacking the cave bear
with wooden spears and it was knocking the heads off guys.
I'm confused by Jean Auel being on such a list. As I recall she had a
serious stroke that stopped her from writing for a long time but she did
eventually finish the Earth's Children series.
--
Inquiring minds want to know while minds with a self-preservation
instinct are running screaming.
Kevrob
2018-08-07 21:52:12 UTC
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Post by James Nicoll
Fighting Erasure: Women SF Writers of the 1980s, Part I
https://www.tor.com/2018/08/07/fighting-erasure-women-sf-writers-of-the-1980s-part-i/
I did read _The Clan of the Cave Bear_ and stopped at that.  It did have
some startling moments such as when they were attacking the cave bear
with wooden spears and it was knocking the heads off guys.
I'm confused by Jean Auel being on such a list. As I recall she had a
serious stroke that stopped her from writing for a long time but she did
eventually finish the Earth's Children series.
An actual case of a real "brain eater!"

Kevin R
Dorothy J Heydt
2018-08-07 22:47:17 UTC
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Post by James Nicoll
Post by Dimensional Traveler
Post by James Nicoll
Fighting Erasure: Women SF Writers of the 1980s, Part I
https://www.tor.com/2018/08/07/fighting-erasure-women-sf-writers-of-the-1980s-part-i/
Post by Dimensional Traveler
I did read _The Clan of the Cave Bear_ and stopped at that.  It did have
some startling moments such as when they were attacking the cave bear
with wooden spears and it was knocking the heads off guys.
I'm confused by Jean Auel being on such a list. As I recall she had a
serious stroke that stopped her from writing for a long time but she did
eventually finish the Earth's Children series.
An actual case of a real "brain eater!"
They happen. Consider Laumer's stroke and Heinlein's
arteriosclerosis.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Joe Bernstein
2018-08-08 17:01:39 UTC
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Post by James Nicoll
Fighting Erasure: Women SF Writers of the 1980s, Part I
https://www.tor.com/2018/08/07/fighting-erasure-women-sf-writers-of-the-1980s-part-i/
So, um, after this do you do the 1990s? The 2000s? The 2010s -
which may by then have ended?

And then go backward?

I'm aware of Joanna Russ's <How to Suppress Women's Writing>, have
read about half of it, and know that some of the strategies she
describes are still used.

But I'm skeptical that for writers of the 1990s and beyond *enough*
of those strategies have been applied in a gendered *enough* way that
it's meaningful to describe women, but not men, as "fighting erasure".

It's inconvenient for me to work with your articles, thanks to their
.com address, so I haven't yet, but sooner or later hope to make a
direct comparison. Find some letter of the alphabet small enough
that you picked essentially all the women, look at their careers -
and then look at essentially all the men and their careers. I
suspect that for the 1970s the differences would not be huge, and
that for the 1990s they'd actually be pretty small.

Joe Bernstein
--
Joe Bernstein <***@gmail.com>
James Nicoll
2018-08-08 17:54:59 UTC
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Post by James Nicoll
Post by James Nicoll
Fighting Erasure: Women SF Writers of the 1980s, Part I
https://www.tor.com/2018/08/07/fighting-erasure-women-sf-writers-of-the-1980s-part-i/
So, um, after this do you do the 1990s? The 2000s? The 2010s -
which may by then have ended?
And then go backward?
The 1980s, during which time I will do the research for the 1990s (rather
than the usual marathon to assemble the master list of names) and the 1960s.
I hope to alternate 1960s and 1990s.
Post by James Nicoll
I'm aware of Joanna Russ's <How to Suppress Women's Writing>, have
read about half of it, and know that some of the strategies she
describes are still used.
But I'm skeptical that for writers of the 1990s and beyond *enough*
of those strategies have been applied in a gendered *enough* way that
it's meaningful to describe women, but not men, as "fighting erasure".
A: By documenting them, I fight erasure.

B: I am not preventing anyone from doing the same for men.

C: My name for the series was In Numbers Too Great to Ignore.

D: I get a lot of pushback for this series. Weirdly, never for any
series of reviews that focuses on sets dominated by men.

E: It's odd how many "must read" lists are dominated by books by men.
Sometimes surprisingly mediocre books by men. In what world is any
book by Paul di Filippo of greater significance than, oh, The Haunting,
Dawn, or A Door Into Ocean?
Post by James Nicoll
It's inconvenient for me to work with your articles, thanks to their
.com address, so I haven't yet, but sooner or later hope to make a
direct comparison. Find some letter of the alphabet small enough
that you picked essentially all the women, look at their careers -
and then look at essentially all the men and their careers. I
suspect that for the 1970s the differences would not be huge, and
that for the 1990s they'd actually be pretty small.
Well, I await actual evidence.
--
My reviews can be found at http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/
My Dreamwidth at https://james-davis-nicoll.dreamwidth.org/
My patreon is at https://www.patreon.com/jamesdnicoll
Joe Bernstein
2018-08-08 21:14:29 UTC
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Post by James Nicoll
Post by James Nicoll
Post by James Nicoll
Fighting Erasure: Women SF Writers of the 1980s, Part I
https://www.tor.com/2018/08/07/fighting-erasure-women-sf-writers-of-the-1980s-part-i/
So, um, after this do you do the 1990s? The 2000s? The 2010s -
which may by then have ended?
And then go backward?
The 1980s, during which time I will do the research for the 1990s
(rather than the usual marathon to assemble the master list of names)
and the 1960s. I hope to alternate 1960s and 1990s.
See below.
Post by James Nicoll
Post by James Nicoll
I'm aware of Joanna Russ's <How to Suppress Women's Writing>, have
read about half of it, and know that some of the strategies she
describes are still used.
But I'm skeptical that for writers of the 1990s and beyond *enough*
of those strategies have been applied in a gendered *enough* way that
it's meaningful to describe women, but not men, as "fighting erasure".
A: By documenting them, I fight erasure.
B: I am not preventing anyone from doing the same for men.
Of course you aren't.
Post by James Nicoll
C: My name for the series was In Numbers Too Great to Ignore.
Obviously a better name for the 1970s forward. Becomes problematic
for the 1960s and earlier, for which the title actually being used
is significantly more appropriate.
Post by James Nicoll
D: I get a lot of pushback for this series. Weirdly, never for any
series of reviews that focuses on sets dominated by men.
This group appears to me to have two or three regular posters who can
reasonably be identified as women. I'm one of the younger regular
posters, and I'm rapidly aging out of things. Golly gosh, what can
we reasonably expect of such an audience?

I got pushback for long posts about John Crowley and Charles Williams,
but not for long posts about Poul Anderson. Seems to me there's a
set dominated by men somewhere in there, but maybe I'm getting my
math wrong.

I tend to thrive as a big fish in small ponds. One reason Korean
dramas attract me is that in many ways they're a small pond, despite
considerable international interest. One major *reason* they're a
small pond is that they tend to be understood, by most observers, as
"soap operas" of interest only to (un-edified) women. Amazing what
that'll do to an art form. Similarly, note the proportion of
scholarly interest vs. sales in regard to science fiction versus
fantasy, and in fantasy, to secondary world fantasy versus "urban"
fantasy. Of course both these generic distinctions significantly
correlate with gender.
Post by James Nicoll
E: It's odd how many "must read" lists are dominated by books by men.
Sometimes surprisingly mediocre books by men. In what world is any
book by Paul di Filippo of greater significance than, oh, The Haunting,
Dawn, or A Door Into Ocean?
This is, perhaps, a bit too much erasure. <A Door into Ocean> is
distinctively Joan Slonczewski's title, and I suppose it might be
safe to assume that by <Dawn> you mean Octavia Butler's rather than
Eleanor Porter's, Molly Garret Bang's, or for that matter Theodore
Dreiser's. But I'm not sure it's as safe to assume that <The
Haunting> is Margaret Mahy's, as against Joan Lowery Nixon's,
Lynne Ewing's, P. C. Doherty's, Robin Popp's, or for that matter
Alan Titchmarsh's - and given that title, probably most of those are
speculative, unlike the alternative <Dawn>s.

Looks like I *have* read something by Paul Di Filippo, but I didn't
remember having done so. Since I not only haven't read any of the
books you mention (regardless of the authors) but haven't read
anything much by Slonczewski, Butler, or Mahy, I can't speculate on
how I'd rank them. I'm not generally much for "must read", though.
So I think the proper response for me is to compare authors I've done
Novels of on, or the equivalent. And there I find Crowley, Geoff
Ryman, and Michael Flynn, all men, versus James Tiptree, Martha Wells,
Winifred Ehle and Kay Kenyon; in my book logs, existing or not,
posted or not, and completed or not, Kevin Brockmeier, Lord Byron,
Anthony Hope, Charles Stross and Charles Dickens versus Frances
Burney, Maria Edgeworth, Sarah Burney, Maureen McHugh, Shannon Hale
and Melissa Marr. Pretty much a wash.

I do have a "must watch" list for K-dramas. Of those seven shows,
the writers are 1) Hong Jung-Eun and Hong Mi-Ran, 2) Kim Young-Hyun,
3) Kim In-Young and So Hyun-Kyung, 4) Park Yeon-Seon, 5) Hwang Eun-
Kyung and Choi Soo-Jin, 6) Kim Do-Woo, and 7) Jun Ho-Sung. It looks
like Jun of 7) is a man; the rest are women. But this actually *over*-
represents male scriptwriters given the gender balance of this
profession in South Korea today. Separately, I picked three of the
twenty-two dramas in the 1996 series of "Hometown Legends" as
something like must-watch, for those who can do without translation;
two of those were written by men, the third by a woman; however, of
the series as a whole, a greater majority were written by men.
Post by James Nicoll
Post by James Nicoll
It's inconvenient for me to work with your articles, thanks to their
.com address, so I haven't yet, but sooner or later hope to make a
direct comparison. Find some letter of the alphabet small enough
that you picked essentially all the women, look at their careers -
and then look at essentially all the men and their careers. I
suspect that for the 1970s the differences would not be huge, and
that for the 1990s they'd actually be pretty small.
Well, I await actual evidence.
When I get a chance. I'm presently busy taking advantage of slack
time in the library to re-watch Korean dramas that I can only get to
on DVD. Once the regular quarter starts in late September, that'll
go on hold and I'll be a bit more mobile to places where I can get
past the .com.

Joe Bernstein
--
Joe Bernstein <***@gmail.com>
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