Discussion:
Modern positive SF
(too old to reply)
Jaimie Vandenbergh
2018-02-19 17:26:16 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
I can think of various pretty upbeat fantasy books in the last decade,
but not much in SF. It tends towards the grimdark and meathook. Or
perhaps my purchasing habits do, in which case I'd like more cheer.

Anyone? Space opera if possible. Pref not YA, but I'll take it. All I
can think of -

Sea Wasps's Grand Central Arena books
Mitch Benn's _Terra_ and _Terra's World_
Bujold's Vorkosiverse, generally.
Erm...
That's it.

Cheers - Jaimie
--
"You know how dumb the average person is? Well, by definition,
half of 'em are dumber than THAT." - J.R. "Bob" Dobbs
James Nicoll
2018-02-19 17:43:33 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Jaimie Vandenbergh
I can think of various pretty upbeat fantasy books in the last decade,
but not much in SF. It tends towards the grimdark and meathook. Or
perhaps my purchasing habits do, in which case I'd like more cheer.
Anyone? Space opera if possible. Pref not YA, but I'll take it. All I
can think of -
Sea Wasps's Grand Central Arena books
Mitch Benn's _Terra_ and _Terra's World_
Bujold's Vorkosiverse, generally.
Is the Vorkosiverse upbeat? It seems to me like there's Beta and then
a vast number of oligarchies and autocracies.

KB Spangler's Stoneskin was comparatively upbeat.
--
My reviews can be found at http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/
My Dreamwidth at https://james-davis-nicoll.dreamwidth.org/
My patreon is at https://www.patreon.com/jamesdnicoll
J. Clarke
2018-02-19 17:46:48 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by James Nicoll
Post by Jaimie Vandenbergh
I can think of various pretty upbeat fantasy books in the last decade,
but not much in SF. It tends towards the grimdark and meathook. Or
perhaps my purchasing habits do, in which case I'd like more cheer.
Anyone? Space opera if possible. Pref not YA, but I'll take it. All I
can think of -
Sea Wasps's Grand Central Arena books
Mitch Benn's _Terra_ and _Terra's World_
Bujold's Vorkosiverse, generally.
Is the Vorkosiverse upbeat? It seems to me like there's Beta and then
a vast number of oligarchies and autocracies.
KB Spangler's Stoneskin was comparatively upbeat.
While it's gotten slow and repetitive of late, I don't find anything
grimdark about the Honorverse--mostly it's Manticore kicking butt and
taking names, most of which deserve to be taken.
m***@sky.com
2018-02-19 18:19:04 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by James Nicoll
Post by Jaimie Vandenbergh
I can think of various pretty upbeat fantasy books in the last decade,
but not much in SF. It tends towards the grimdark and meathook. Or
perhaps my purchasing habits do, in which case I'd like more cheer.
Anyone? Space opera if possible. Pref not YA, but I'll take it. All I
can think of -
Sea Wasps's Grand Central Arena books
Mitch Benn's _Terra_ and _Terra's World_
Bujold's Vorkosiverse, generally.
Is the Vorkosiverse upbeat? It seems to me like there's Beta and then
a vast number of oligarchies and autocracies.
KB Spangler's Stoneskin was comparatively upbeat.
--
My reviews can be found at http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/
My Dreamwidth at https://james-davis-nicoll.dreamwidth.org/
My patreon is at https://www.patreon.com/jamesdnicoll
Barrayar is moving in the cultural direction of Beta colony as fast as it can, partly in pursuit of technological progress for military survival, and partly through the influence of Cordelia Naismith and her proteges.
Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
2018-02-19 17:26:25 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by James Nicoll
Post by Jaimie Vandenbergh
I can think of various pretty upbeat fantasy books in the last
decade, but not much in SF. It tends towards the grimdark and
meathook. Or perhaps my purchasing habits do, in which case I'd
like more cheer.
Anyone? Space opera if possible. Pref not YA, but I'll take it.
All I can think of -
Sea Wasps's Grand Central Arena books
Mitch Benn's _Terra_ and _Terra's World_
Bujold's Vorkosiverse, generally.
Is the Vorkosiverse upbeat? It seems to me like there's Beta and
then a vast number of oligarchies and autocracies.
The good guys always win, and they do so by being good guys.
--
Terry Austin

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.
David Johnston
2018-02-19 20:09:11 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by James Nicoll
Post by Jaimie Vandenbergh
I can think of various pretty upbeat fantasy books in the last decade,
but not much in SF. It tends towards the grimdark and meathook. Or
perhaps my purchasing habits do, in which case I'd like more cheer.
Anyone? Space opera if possible. Pref not YA, but I'll take it. All I
can think of -
Sea Wasps's Grand Central Arena books
Mitch Benn's _Terra_ and _Terra's World_
Bujold's Vorkosiverse, generally.
Is the Vorkosiverse upbeat? It seems to me like there's Beta and then
a vast number of oligarchies and autocracies.
Yes it is. The mere existence of non-democratic polities (and there are
other democratic polities than Beta, they just don't get as much screen
time as Barrayar and Cetaganda) doesn't make a setting grimdark. If it
did Star Trek would be grimdark.
Ahasuerus
2018-02-19 22:20:18 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by David Johnston
Post by James Nicoll
Post by Jaimie Vandenbergh
I can think of various pretty upbeat fantasy books in the last decade,
but not much in SF. It tends towards the grimdark and meathook. Or
perhaps my purchasing habits do, in which case I'd like more cheer.
Anyone? Space opera if possible. Pref not YA, but I'll take it. All I
can think of -
Sea Wasps's Grand Central Arena books
Mitch Benn's _Terra_ and _Terra's World_
Bujold's Vorkosiverse, generally.
Is the Vorkosiverse upbeat? It seems to me like there's Beta and then
a vast number of oligarchies and autocracies.
Yes it is. The mere existence of non-democratic polities (and there are
other democratic polities than Beta, they just don't get as much screen
time as Barrayar and Cetaganda) doesn't make a setting grimdark. If it
did Star Trek would be grimdark.
I assume it depends on how you define "grimdark" --
https://www.tor.com/2015/11/02/is-it-grimdark-or-is-it-horror/ has a few
definitions. I also don't think the postulated society's form of
government determines whether a setting is "grimdark". An anarchist or
monarchist author may think that a democracy fosters "grimdarkness" and
vice versa.
Quadibloc
2018-02-20 02:04:23 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Well, I know what I mean when I claim it's harder to find science fiction
that portrays a positive future these days.

Of course stories will tend to be about conflict, where people get hurt, to be exciting.

But will a story set in the future be in a future where, except for the
machinations of the antagonist, humanity has been successful:
thermonuclear war has been avoided, freedom has been maintained, there is
cultural continuity with the present day... or not?

This isn't a sine qua non for not being grimdark, but it is a type of
setting that used to be common, and is now so rare as to be almost non-existent.

That needs an explanation.
Quadibloc
2018-02-21 16:11:43 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Quadibloc
But will a story set in the future be in a future where, except for the
thermonuclear war has been avoided, freedom has been maintained, there is
cultural continuity with the present day... or not?
This isn't a sine qua non for not being grimdark, but it is a type of
setting that used to be common, and is now so rare as to be almost non-existent.
Here, my concern isn't just with how enjoyable the story is to read, as a story.

Instead, if it isn't apparent, I'm bringing in external issues; what the reduced
prevalence of stories of this type means about authors' perceptions of readers'
optimism about the future. If people don't find a future of progress instead of
one of disaster, or the recovery from disaster, believable, that is worrisome
from the point of view of someone sharing the real world with those readers.

John Savard
Greg Goss
2018-02-19 22:15:36 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by James Nicoll
Post by Jaimie Vandenbergh
I can think of various pretty upbeat fantasy books in the last decade,
but not much in SF. It tends towards the grimdark and meathook. Or
perhaps my purchasing habits do, in which case I'd like more cheer.
Anyone? Space opera if possible. Pref not YA, but I'll take it. All I
can think of -
Sea Wasps's Grand Central Arena books
Mitch Benn's _Terra_ and _Terra's World_
Bujold's Vorkosiverse, generally.
Is the Vorkosiverse upbeat? It seems to me like there's Beta and then
a vast number of oligarchies and autocracies.
It was much worse, and it's getting much better, extremely fast.
CHANGE is upbeat.

Miles arbitrates a murder in Mountains of Mourning, and visits the
area a dozen years later. We can see the changes for the ordinary
members of the society.
--
We are geeks. Resistance is voltage over current.
Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)
2018-02-22 12:47:59 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by James Nicoll
Post by Jaimie Vandenbergh
I can think of various pretty upbeat fantasy books in the last decade,
but not much in SF. It tends towards the grimdark and meathook. Or
perhaps my purchasing habits do, in which case I'd like more cheer.
Anyone? Space opera if possible. Pref not YA, but I'll take it. All I
can think of -
Sea Wasps's Grand Central Arena books
Mitch Benn's _Terra_ and _Terra's World_
Bujold's Vorkosiverse, generally.
Is the Vorkosiverse upbeat? It seems to me like there's Beta and then
a vast number of oligarchies and autocracies.
It seems fairly upbeat to me; oh, there's a couple books with some
REALLY cringeworthy events in them (both Miles and Mark go through some
nasty wringers) but overall the good guys win, the bad guys lose, and
the prices paid for winning aren't usually so huge as to turn "win" into
a technicality.
--
Sea Wasp
/^\
;;;
Website: http://www.grandcentralarena.com Blog:
http://seawasp.dreamwidth.org
Lynn McGuire
2018-02-23 02:24:33 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by James Nicoll
Post by Jaimie Vandenbergh
I can think of various pretty upbeat fantasy books in the last decade,
but not much in SF. It tends towards the grimdark and meathook. Or
perhaps my purchasing habits do, in which case I'd like more cheer.
Anyone? Space opera if possible. Pref not YA, but I'll take it. All I
can think of -
Sea Wasps's Grand Central Arena books
Mitch Benn's _Terra_ and _Terra's World_
Bujold's Vorkosiverse, generally.
Is the Vorkosiverse upbeat? It seems to me like there's Beta and then
a vast number of oligarchies and autocracies.
    It seems fairly upbeat to me; oh, there's a couple books with some
REALLY cringeworthy events in them (both Miles and Mark go through some
nasty wringers) but overall the good guys win, the bad guys lose, and
the prices paid for winning aren't usually so huge as to turn "win" into
a technicality.
Hey, Miles got new legs and several inches increase in height out of
just one of his misadventures. And Mark got some cute nicknames such as
Howl, Gorge, Grunt and Killer in one of his misadventures.

_A Civil Campaign_ is just about the funniest thing that I have ever
read. The house dinner with the target and a few friends such as Simon
Illyan has me rolling on the floor every time. After all, shouldn't one
always use military ground war concepts to stalk XXXXX romance a widow ?

https://www.amazon.com/Civil-Campaign-Lois-McMaster-Bujold/dp/0671578855/

Lynn
Ted Nolan <tednolan>
2018-02-19 18:01:03 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Jaimie Vandenbergh
I can think of various pretty upbeat fantasy books in the last decade,
but not much in SF. It tends towards the grimdark and meathook. Or
perhaps my purchasing habits do, in which case I'd like more cheer.
Anyone? Space opera if possible. Pref not YA, but I'll take it. All I
can think of -
Sea Wasps's Grand Central Arena books
Mitch Benn's _Terra_ and _Terra's World_
Bujold's Vorkosiverse, generally.
Erm...
That's it.
Lee & Miller's "Liaden" books are pretty much all life affirming and fun.
This is not to say bad things don't happen to good people sometimes, but
that's not the trend of the universe. Some are space opera, some are not.

Sutherland's Alexis Carew books are good generally upbeat milsf. Again,
that's not to say people get out unscathed, even Alexis, but it's definitely
not a "and the cause they were fighting for was evil and then they all died"
series.

The "Duchy of Terra" books by Stewart. Granted it starts out with earth
being conquored, but that turns out not to be particularly onerous.

Henwick's _A Name Among The Stars_. Sort of E.C. Tubb crossed with Ilona
Andrews without Earl's unbroken streak of bad luck.

Probably about the first three of R. M. Meluch's "Merrimack" books.
Unfortunately they kind of fell apart after that.
--
------
columbiaclosings.com
What's not in Columbia anymore..
D B Davis
2018-02-19 18:16:37 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Post by Jaimie Vandenbergh
I can think of various pretty upbeat fantasy books in the last decade,
but not much in SF. It tends towards the grimdark and meathook. Or
perhaps my purchasing habits do, in which case I'd like more cheer.
Anyone? Space opera if possible. Pref not YA, but I'll take it. All I
can think of -
Sea Wasps's Grand Central Arena books
Mitch Benn's _Terra_ and _Terra's World_
Bujold's Vorkosiverse, generally.
Erm...
That's it.
Lee & Miller's "Liaden" books are pretty much all life affirming and fun.
This is not to say bad things don't happen to good people sometimes, but
that's not the trend of the universe. Some are space opera, some are not.
Sutherland's Alexis Carew books are good generally upbeat milsf. Again,
that's not to say people get out unscathed, even Alexis, but it's definitely
not a "and the cause they were fighting for was evil and then they all died"
series.
The "Duchy of Terra" books by Stewart. Granted it starts out with earth
being conquored, but that turns out not to be particularly onerous.
Henwick's _A Name Among The Stars_. Sort of E.C. Tubb crossed with Ilona
Andrews without Earl's unbroken streak of bad luck.
Probably about the first three of R. M. Meluch's "Merrimack" books.
Unfortunately they kind of fell apart after that.
It's hard for me to get a handle on what precisely Jaimie means by
"positive." Allow me to ask the group a couple of questions.
Doesn't a story need conflict in order to engage readers? And
doesn't conflict imply that there's going to be negative elements to the
story?
_Area 51: Black Tuesday_ (Mayer) doesn't fit Jaimie's space opera
criteria. It may even be YA, who knows? In the story a group of time
traveling heroes save the Earth from a dark force.
Fictional senior White House personnel make a brief appearance in
the story. The author does't grind a political axe. The White House
personnel are not caricatures of any real life politicians.
The dark force has always been there in the past and will always be
there in the future. In this story it gets subdued for a while. Although
the story fails the space opera criteria, is it positive enough?

Thank you,

--
Don
Jaimie Vandenbergh
2018-02-19 19:26:47 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by D B Davis
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Post by Jaimie Vandenbergh
I can think of various pretty upbeat fantasy books in the last decade,
but not much in SF. It tends towards the grimdark and meathook. Or
perhaps my purchasing habits do, in which case I'd like more cheer.
Anyone? Space opera if possible. Pref not YA, but I'll take it. All I
can think of -
Sea Wasps's Grand Central Arena books
Mitch Benn's _Terra_ and _Terra's World_
Bujold's Vorkosiverse, generally.
Erm...
That's it.
Lee & Miller's "Liaden" books are pretty much all life affirming and fun.
This is not to say bad things don't happen to good people sometimes, but
that's not the trend of the universe. Some are space opera, some are not.
Sutherland's Alexis Carew books are good generally upbeat milsf. Again,
that's not to say people get out unscathed, even Alexis, but it's definitely
not a "and the cause they were fighting for was evil and then they all died"
series.
The "Duchy of Terra" books by Stewart. Granted it starts out with earth
being conquored, but that turns out not to be particularly onerous.
Henwick's _A Name Among The Stars_. Sort of E.C. Tubb crossed with Ilona
Andrews without Earl's unbroken streak of bad luck.
Probably about the first three of R. M. Meluch's "Merrimack" books.
Unfortunately they kind of fell apart after that.
It's hard for me to get a handle on what precisely Jaimie means by
"positive."
I'm defining it more by being "not grimdark meathook futures", "not
perpetual war universes", "not a murdering antihero", "not a hopeless
post-apocalyptic setting", "not a dystopia with a gloating, evil
government" and "no looming cosmic horror that will engulf everything".
Like most Reynolds, Stross, Jeter, Banks, Baxter, Hamilton,... of recent
years. And anything that Lynn enjoys reading, or apparently most YA SF
these days.
Post by D B Davis
Allow me to ask the group a couple of questions.
Doesn't a story need conflict in order to engage readers? And
doesn't conflict imply that there's going to be negative elements to the
story?
Sure - but it can have negative elements without being entirely grim and
awful except for perhaps the protagonist.
Post by D B Davis
_Area 51: Black Tuesday_ (Mayer) doesn't fit Jaimie's space opera
criteria. It may even be YA, who knows? In the story a group of time
traveling heroes save the Earth from a dark force.
Fictional senior White House personnel make a brief appearance in
the story. The author does't grind a political axe. The White House
personnel are not caricatures of any real life politicians.
The dark force has always been there in the past and will always be
there in the future. In this story it gets subdued for a while. Although
the story fails the space opera criteria, is it positive enough?
Maybe! I've not read it.

Cheers - Jaimie
--
Once I drove so fast that my friend, who was pregnant, started having
Lorentz contractions.

"Ahah," you might ask, "but how far apart were they?" - Adam Fineman, rgrn
David Johnston
2018-02-19 18:05:55 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Jaimie Vandenbergh
I can think of various pretty upbeat fantasy books in the last decade,
but not much in SF. It tends towards the grimdark and meathook. Or
perhaps my purchasing habits do, in which case I'd like more cheer.
Anyone? Space opera if possible. Pref not YA, but I'll take it. All I
can think of -
Sea Wasps's Grand Central Arena books
Mitch Benn's _Terra_ and _Terra's World_
Bujold's Vorkosiverse, generally.
Erm...
That's it.
Cheers - Jaimie
The Lost Fleet series by "Jack Campbell"
The Liaden series starts out romancey but gets more science fictioney
later.
1***@compuserve.com
2018-02-19 18:14:19 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by David Johnston
Post by Jaimie Vandenbergh
I can think of various pretty upbeat fantasy books in the last decade,
but not much in SF. It tends towards the grimdark and meathook. Or
perhaps my purchasing habits do, in which case I'd like more cheer.
The Liaden series starts out romancey but gets more science fictioney
later.
Ah, does it? I got _Fledgling_ from the Baen Free Library, then bought a couple more, and ever since then my Kindle has been offering almost exclusively romance books in its advertising...

Can you recommend a good science fictiony Liaden book?

JimboCat
--
In the good old days, the complaints about how everything is going to hell were much more sophisticated and erudite than they are today.
Ted Nolan <tednolan>
2018-02-19 18:25:09 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by 1***@compuserve.com
Post by David Johnston
Post by Jaimie Vandenbergh
I can think of various pretty upbeat fantasy books in the last decade,
but not much in SF. It tends towards the grimdark and meathook. Or
perhaps my purchasing habits do, in which case I'd like more cheer.
The Liaden series starts out romancey but gets more science fictioney
later.
Ah, does it? I got _Fledgling_ from the Baen Free Library, then bought a
couple more, and ever since then my Kindle has been offering almost
exclusively romance books in its advertising...
Can you recommend a good science fictiony Liaden book?
Well, set aside what your kindle offers -- did you like the books you
mentioned? The worldview and approach to character are pretty consistent
across the setting.

You could consider the Crystal Duology perhaps. There is certainly nothing
approaching "hard sf" in the Liaden setting, but lots of space travel, battles
and collapsing universes there. (Also a bit of romance, crazy scholors
and cats). The most recent books have cloning, emergent AIs, mind control,
space battles and rugs.
--
------
columbiaclosings.com
What's not in Columbia anymore..
1***@compuserve.com
2018-02-21 20:30:32 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Post by 1***@compuserve.com
Post by David Johnston
Post by Jaimie Vandenbergh
I can think of various pretty upbeat fantasy books in the last decade,
but not much in SF. It tends towards the grimdark and meathook. Or
perhaps my purchasing habits do, in which case I'd like more cheer.
The Liaden series starts out romancey but gets more science fictioney
later.
Ah, does it? I got _Fledgling_ from the Baen Free Library, then bought a
couple more, and ever since then my Kindle has been offering almost
exclusively romance books in its advertising...
Can you recommend a good science fictiony Liaden book?
You could consider the Crystal Duology perhaps.
Ah, prequels: yes, that might serve me well.
I did like the Pride and Prejudice in Spaaaaccceee of _Local Custom_ and also the dork-to-superhero of _Scout's Progress_ and of _Fledgling_ but
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
lots of space travel, battles
and collapsing universes there. (Also a bit of romance, crazy scholors
and cats). The most recent books have cloning, emergent AIs, mind control,
space battles and rugs.
all sounds good. Once I finish what's already in the queue, that is...

JimboCat
--
"We must go forth and crush every world view that doesn't believe
in tolerance and free speech," - David Brin
Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)
2018-02-22 12:50:30 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by 1***@compuserve.com
Post by David Johnston
Post by Jaimie Vandenbergh
I can think of various pretty upbeat fantasy books in the last decade,
but not much in SF. It tends towards the grimdark and meathook. Or
perhaps my purchasing habits do, in which case I'd like more cheer.
The Liaden series starts out romancey but gets more science fictioney
later.
Ah, does it? I got _Fledgling_ from the Baen Free Library, then bought a couple more, and ever since then my Kindle has been offering almost exclusively romance books in its advertising...
Can you recommend a good science fictiony Liaden book?
Fledgling seems SF enough to me, certainly. The earlier ones have more
action-adventure in them, if that's what you mean. Read them in
publication order, at least that's what I'm doing, and Fledgling is a
LONG way down that list. Try _Agent of Change_.
--
Sea Wasp
/^\
;;;
Website: http://www.grandcentralarena.com Blog:
http://seawasp.dreamwidth.org
Lynn McGuire
2018-02-23 02:12:48 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On 2/22/2018 6:50 AM, Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor) wrote:
...
Post by 1***@compuserve.com
Can you recommend a good science fictiony Liaden book?
    Fledgling seems SF enough to me, certainly. The earlier ones have
more action-adventure in them, if that's what you mean. Read them in
publication order, at least that's what I'm doing, and Fledgling is a
LONG way down that list. Try _Agent of Change_.
+1,000,000

Lynn
1***@compuserve.com
2018-02-23 17:41:59 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)
Fledgling seems SF enough to me, certainly. The earlier ones have more
action-adventure in them, if that's what you mean. Read them in
publication order, at least that's what I'm doing, and Fledgling is a
LONG way down that list. Try _Agent of Change_.
I've read _Agent of Change_, but it's not my favorite. I think _Fledgling_ is so far.

http://korval.com/publication-list/correct-reading-order/ gives some advice, possibly useful, in choosing a reading order.

I'm going for the pre-ist prequels next, _Crystal Soldier_ and _Crystal Dragon_. Probably.

But it's weird how they're numbered. _Crystal Soldier_ is "Liaden Universe Book 9" and _Crystal Dragon_ is "book 2", but they are 1 and 2 respectively in internal chronology, and they are 9 and 10 in order as written (might not be identical to order as published).

I can't make sense out of that. Maybe (confusingly) CS is the 9th book published and CD is book 2 of the CS/CD duology?

JimboCat
--
"If you run into an asshole in the morning, you ran into an asshole. If you run into assholes all day long, _you're_ the asshole." - Raylan Givens
Ted Nolan <tednolan>
2018-02-23 17:56:46 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by 1***@compuserve.com
Post by Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)
Fledgling seems SF enough to me, certainly. The earlier ones have more
action-adventure in them, if that's what you mean. Read them in
publication order, at least that's what I'm doing, and Fledgling is a
LONG way down that list. Try _Agent of Change_.
I've read _Agent of Change_, but it's not my favorite. I think
_Fledgling_ is so far.
I think AOC might have been the first written, and is a bit rough.
Post by 1***@compuserve.com
http://korval.com/publication-list/correct-reading-order/ gives some
advice, possibly useful, in choosing a reading order.
You won't do wrong to read in publication order.
Post by 1***@compuserve.com
I'm going for the pre-ist prequels next, _Crystal Soldier_ and _Crystal Dragon_. Probably.
But it's weird how they're numbered. _Crystal Soldier_ is "Liaden
Universe Book 9" and _Crystal Dragon_ is "book 2", but they are 1 and 2
respectively in internal chronology, and they are 9 and 10 in order as
written (might not be identical to order as published).
Well, they are definitely one story, and should be read (IMHO) back-to-back.
--
------
columbiaclosings.com
What's not in Columbia anymore..
Lynn McGuire
2018-02-23 19:31:00 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Post by 1***@compuserve.com
Post by Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)
Fledgling seems SF enough to me, certainly. The earlier ones have more
action-adventure in them, if that's what you mean. Read them in
publication order, at least that's what I'm doing, and Fledgling is a
LONG way down that list. Try _Agent of Change_.
I've read _Agent of Change_, but it's not my favorite. I think _Fledgling_ is so far.
I think AOC might have been the first written, and is a bit rough.
...

I would like to point out that the level of "roughness" in AOC would be
considered a polished work by many other authors.

Lynn
Ted Nolan <tednolan>
2018-02-23 19:45:17 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Post by 1***@compuserve.com
Post by Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)
Fledgling seems SF enough to me, certainly. The earlier ones have more
action-adventure in them, if that's what you mean. Read them in
publication order, at least that's what I'm doing, and Fledgling is a
LONG way down that list. Try _Agent of Change_.
I've read _Agent of Change_, but it's not my favorite. I think _Fledgling_ is so far.
I think AOC might have been the first written, and is a bit rough.
...
I would like to point out that the level of "roughness" in AOC would be
considered a polished work by many other authors.
Lynn
Oh yes. It's professional work for sure, just not as good as they later got.
--
------
columbiaclosings.com
What's not in Columbia anymore..
Jaimie Vandenbergh
2018-02-19 19:27:46 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On Mon, 19 Feb 2018 11:05:55 -0700, David Johnston
Post by David Johnston
Post by Jaimie Vandenbergh
I can think of various pretty upbeat fantasy books in the last decade,
but not much in SF. It tends towards the grimdark and meathook. Or
perhaps my purchasing habits do, in which case I'd like more cheer.
Anyone? Space opera if possible. Pref not YA, but I'll take it. All I
can think of -
Sea Wasps's Grand Central Arena books
Mitch Benn's _Terra_ and _Terra's World_
Bujold's Vorkosiverse, generally.
Erm...
That's it.
Cheers - Jaimie
The Lost Fleet series by "Jack Campbell"
Really? I read the first couple and it all failed my "perpetual war
universe" test. Which I realise I didn't mention in my OP.

Cheers - Jaimie
--
"Power corrupts, but we need the electricity."
Ted Nolan <tednolan>
2018-02-19 19:31:11 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Jaimie Vandenbergh
On Mon, 19 Feb 2018 11:05:55 -0700, David Johnston
Post by David Johnston
Post by Jaimie Vandenbergh
I can think of various pretty upbeat fantasy books in the last decade,
but not much in SF. It tends towards the grimdark and meathook. Or
perhaps my purchasing habits do, in which case I'd like more cheer.
Anyone? Space opera if possible. Pref not YA, but I'll take it. All I
can think of -
Sea Wasps's Grand Central Arena books
Mitch Benn's _Terra_ and _Terra's World_
Bujold's Vorkosiverse, generally.
Erm...
That's it.
Cheers - Jaimie
The Lost Fleet series by "Jack Campbell"
Really? I read the first couple and it all failed my "perpetual war
universe" test. Which I realise I didn't mention in my OP.
I don't think it's a big spoiler to say it's about finding a way out of
perpetual war.
--
------
columbiaclosings.com
What's not in Columbia anymore..
David Johnston
2018-02-19 20:03:22 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Jaimie Vandenbergh
On Mon, 19 Feb 2018 11:05:55 -0700, David Johnston
Post by David Johnston
Post by Jaimie Vandenbergh
I can think of various pretty upbeat fantasy books in the last decade,
but not much in SF. It tends towards the grimdark and meathook. Or
perhaps my purchasing habits do, in which case I'd like more cheer.
Anyone? Space opera if possible. Pref not YA, but I'll take it. All I
can think of -
Sea Wasps's Grand Central Arena books
Mitch Benn's _Terra_ and _Terra's World_
Bujold's Vorkosiverse, generally.
Erm...
That's it.
Cheers - Jaimie
The Lost Fleet series by "Jack Campbell"
Really? I read the first couple and it all failed my "perpetual war
universe" test. Which I realise I didn't mention in my OP.
<shrug> He ends the war. He averts the transition from republic into
empire. The Lost Fleet series and especially the spinoff Lost Stars
series is about taking a nightmarish reality and fixing it.
Robert Carnegie
2018-02-19 22:15:08 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by David Johnston
Post by Jaimie Vandenbergh
On Mon, 19 Feb 2018 11:05:55 -0700, David Johnston
Post by David Johnston
Post by Jaimie Vandenbergh
I can think of various pretty upbeat fantasy books in the last decade,
but not much in SF. It tends towards the grimdark and meathook. Or
perhaps my purchasing habits do, in which case I'd like more cheer.
Anyone? Space opera if possible. Pref not YA, but I'll take it. All I
can think of -
Sea Wasps's Grand Central Arena books
Mitch Benn's _Terra_ and _Terra's World_
Bujold's Vorkosiverse, generally.
Erm...
That's it.
Cheers - Jaimie
The Lost Fleet series by "Jack Campbell"
Really? I read the first couple and it all failed my "perpetual war
universe" test. Which I realise I didn't mention in my OP.
<shrug> He ends the war. He averts the transition from republic into
empire. The Lost Fleet series and especially the spinoff Lost Stars
series is about taking a nightmarish reality and fixing it.
Albeit with significant casualties amongst the good guys -
but, war is hell, ain't it?
m***@sky.com
2018-02-19 18:33:31 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Jaimie Vandenbergh
I can think of various pretty upbeat fantasy books in the last decade,
but not much in SF. It tends towards the grimdark and meathook. Or
perhaps my purchasing habits do, in which case I'd like more cheer.
Anyone? Space opera if possible. Pref not YA, but I'll take it. All I
can think of -
Sea Wasps's Grand Central Arena books
Mitch Benn's _Terra_ and _Terra's World_
Bujold's Vorkosiverse, generally.
Erm...
That's it.
Cheers - Jaimie
--
"You know how dumb the average person is? Well, by definition,
half of 'em are dumber than THAT." - J.R. "Bob" Dobbs
If you are persuaded by https://accordingtohoyt.com/2012/03/21/what-is-human-wave-science-fiction-3/ you could try Sarah Hoyt's SF, such as her "Good Man"/Darkship series. I think "Through Fire" is the best, and could probably be read stand-alone - it's heavily based on the French Revolution.

If you haven't tried any of Christopher Nuttall's various series, it's worth trying one, just because if you like it there's so much out there to read. Ringo and Taylor's "Looking Glass" series is no longer very new (2005), but great fun.

I think Drake's RCN series is life-affirming despite some nasty situations, because the characters surmount these. First hit is free via download links at http://www.baen.com/with-the-lightnings.html This is heavily based on Patrick O'Brian's Aubrey/Maturin sea stories.
Bill Gill
2018-02-20 14:16:07 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by m***@sky.com
Post by Jaimie Vandenbergh
I can think of various pretty upbeat fantasy books in the last decade,
but not much in SF. It tends towards the grimdark and meathook. Or
perhaps my purchasing habits do, in which case I'd like more cheer.
Anyone? Space opera if possible. Pref not YA, but I'll take it. All I
can think of -
Sea Wasps's Grand Central Arena books
Mitch Benn's _Terra_ and _Terra's World_
Bujold's Vorkosiverse, generally.
Erm...
That's it.
Cheers - Jaimie
--
"You know how dumb the average person is? Well, by definition,
half of 'em are dumber than THAT." - J.R. "Bob" Dobbs
If you are persuaded by https://accordingtohoyt.com/2012/03/21/what-is-human-wave-science-fiction-3/ you could try Sarah Hoyt's SF, such as her "Good Man"/Darkship series. I think "Through Fire" is the best, and could probably be read stand-alone - it's heavily based on the French Revolution.
If you haven't tried any of Christopher Nuttall's various series, it's worth trying one, just because if you like it there's so much out there to read. Ringo and Taylor's "Looking Glass" series is no longer very new (2005), but great fun.
I think Drake's RCN series is life-affirming despite some nasty situations, because the characters surmount these. First hit is free via download links at http://www.baen.com/with-the-lightnings.html This is heavily based on Patrick O'Brian's Aubrey/Maturin sea stories.
Indeed I did like the "Looking Glass" series. In fact
that is the only thing by either of them that I can stand.

Bill
Default User
2018-02-19 20:59:06 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Jaimie Vandenbergh
I can think of various pretty upbeat fantasy books in the last decade,
but not much in SF. It tends towards the grimdark and meathook. Or
perhaps my purchasing habits do, in which case I'd like more cheer.
Have you read Leckie's "Ancillary" books? If so, where do they fall and
if not acceptable what are the specific problems. This would help sort
out your preferences.


Brian
Jaimie Vandenbergh
2018-02-23 00:09:00 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On Mon, 19 Feb 2018 20:59:06 +0000 (UTC), "Default User"
Post by Default User
Post by Jaimie Vandenbergh
I can think of various pretty upbeat fantasy books in the last decade,
but not much in SF. It tends towards the grimdark and meathook. Or
perhaps my purchasing habits do, in which case I'd like more cheer.
Have you read Leckie's "Ancillary" books? If so, where do they fall and
if not acceptable what are the specific problems. This would help sort
out your preferences.
Unfortunately not - although they are in my dangerously large strategic
book reserve, I've not grokked the content by osmosis yet.

Cheers - Jaimie
--
Love is a snowmobile racing across the tundra and then suddenly it
flips over, pinning you underneath. At night, the ice weasels come.
- Nietzsche (via Groening)
Lynn McGuire
2018-02-20 02:18:11 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Jaimie Vandenbergh
I can think of various pretty upbeat fantasy books in the last decade,
but not much in SF. It tends towards the grimdark and meathook. Or
perhaps my purchasing habits do, in which case I'd like more cheer.
Anyone? Space opera if possible. Pref not YA, but I'll take it. All I
can think of -
Sea Wasps's Grand Central Arena books
Mitch Benn's _Terra_ and _Terra's World_
Bujold's Vorkosiverse, generally.
Erm...
That's it.
Cheers - Jaimie
Really upbeat, how about _Agent to the Stars_ by John Scalzi:
https://www.amazon.com/Agent-Stars-John-Scalzi/dp/0765357003/

Going down then up, there is _We Are Legion (We Are Bob) (Bobiverse)
(Volume 1)_ by Dennis Taylor:
https://www.amazon.com/We-Are-Legion-Bob-Bobiverse/dp/1680680587/

And of course, there is _The Martian_ by Andy Weir which I consider to
be very upbeat. Ride on, Captain Blondebeard !
https://www.amazon.com/Martian-Andy-Weir/dp/0553418025/

Lynn
Bill Gill
2018-02-20 14:17:27 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Lynn McGuire
And of course, there is _The Martian_ by Andy Weir which I consider to
be very upbeat.  Ride on, Captain Blondebeard !
AMEN!

Too bad he couldn't keep it up in his new book.

Bill
m***@sky.com
2018-02-20 18:59:42 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Bill Gill
Post by Lynn McGuire
And of course, there is _The Martian_ by Andy Weir which I consider to
be very upbeat.  Ride on, Captain Blondebeard !
AMEN!
Too bad he couldn't keep it up in his new book.
Bill
I thought the worldbuilding in "Artemis" was excellent. Couldn't stand the protagonist, though I could see it led to a sort of consistency (very bright girl with zero self-discipline growing up with a bad crowd gives you somebody with a LOT of practice thinking up clever tricks to dig themselves out of holes)
Jaimie Vandenbergh
2018-02-23 00:51:59 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On Mon, 19 Feb 2018 20:18:11 -0600, Lynn McGuire
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by Jaimie Vandenbergh
I can think of various pretty upbeat fantasy books in the last decade,
but not much in SF. It tends towards the grimdark and meathook. Or
perhaps my purchasing habits do, in which case I'd like more cheer.
Anyone? Space opera if possible. Pref not YA, but I'll take it. All I
can think of -
Sea Wasps's Grand Central Arena books
Mitch Benn's _Terra_ and _Terra's World_
Bujold's Vorkosiverse, generally.
Erm...
That's it.
Cheers - Jaimie
https://www.amazon.com/Agent-Stars-John-Scalzi/dp/0765357003/
Scalzi I don't seem to get on with, but you're right about it being a
cheerful book.
Post by Lynn McGuire
Going down then up, there is _We Are Legion (We Are Bob) (Bobiverse)
https://www.amazon.com/We-Are-Legion-Bob-Bobiverse/dp/1680680587/
Read and enjoyed, along with sequals.
Post by Lynn McGuire
And of course, there is _The Martian_ by Andy Weir which I consider to
be very upbeat. Ride on, Captain Blondebeard !
https://www.amazon.com/Martian-Andy-Weir/dp/0553418025/
And a third good shout. I apologise for the "and anything that Lynn
enjoys" in my reply to Don earlier! I was picking on your fascination
with the dystopic genre, and shouldn't have thought your choices so
narrow.

Cheers - Jaimie
--
"Machines take me by surprise with great frequency." - Alan Turing
Lynn McGuire
2018-02-23 02:32:22 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Jaimie Vandenbergh
On Mon, 19 Feb 2018 20:18:11 -0600, Lynn McGuire
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by Jaimie Vandenbergh
I can think of various pretty upbeat fantasy books in the last decade,
but not much in SF. It tends towards the grimdark and meathook. Or
perhaps my purchasing habits do, in which case I'd like more cheer.
Anyone? Space opera if possible. Pref not YA, but I'll take it. All I
can think of -
Sea Wasps's Grand Central Arena books
Mitch Benn's _Terra_ and _Terra's World_
Bujold's Vorkosiverse, generally.
Erm...
That's it.
Cheers - Jaimie
https://www.amazon.com/Agent-Stars-John-Scalzi/dp/0765357003/
Scalzi I don't seem to get on with, but you're right about it being a
cheerful book.
Post by Lynn McGuire
Going down then up, there is _We Are Legion (We Are Bob) (Bobiverse)
https://www.amazon.com/We-Are-Legion-Bob-Bobiverse/dp/1680680587/
Read and enjoyed, along with sequals.
Post by Lynn McGuire
And of course, there is _The Martian_ by Andy Weir which I consider to
be very upbeat. Ride on, Captain Blondebeard !
https://www.amazon.com/Martian-Andy-Weir/dp/0553418025/
And a third good shout. I apologise for the "and anything that Lynn
enjoys" in my reply to Don earlier! I was picking on your fascination
with the dystopic genre, and shouldn't have thought your choices so
narrow.
Cheers - Jaimie
You are welcome.

BTW, I don't even limit myself to SF. I am reading the Mitch Rapp and
Jack Reacher series at the moment also. Now that is definitely GUCC's
revenge fiction !

Speaking of dystopic books, with all of the flu going around, I am
temped to reread Konkoly's most excellent _The Jakarta Pandemic" again.
We have had several Sundays since the first of the year at my 2,500
member church where 1/4 of the people are not showing up due to flu or fear.
https://www.amazon.com/Jakarta-Pandemic-Perseid-Collapse/dp/1495907376/

Lynn
Dorothy J Heydt
2018-02-20 02:29:50 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Jaimie Vandenbergh
I can think of various pretty upbeat fantasy books in the last decade,
but not much in SF. It tends towards the grimdark and meathook. Or
perhaps my purchasing habits do, in which case I'd like more cheer.
Anyone? Space opera if possible. Pref not YA, but I'll take it. All I
can think of -
Sea Wasps's Grand Central Arena books
Mitch Benn's _Terra_ and _Terra's World_
Bujold's Vorkosiverse, generally.
Erm...
That's it.
Wrede's Frontier Magic trilogy.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Bill Gill
2018-02-20 14:14:32 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Jaimie Vandenbergh
I can think of various pretty upbeat fantasy books in the last decade,
but not much in SF. It tends towards the grimdark and meathook. Or
perhaps my purchasing habits do, in which case I'd like more cheer.
Anyone? Space opera if possible. Pref not YA, but I'll take it. All I
can think of -
Sea Wasps's Grand Central Arena books
Mitch Benn's _Terra_ and _Terra's World_
Bujold's Vorkosiverse, generally.
Erm...
That's it.
Wrede's Frontier Magic trilogy.
Great trilogy, but it is fantasy, not SF.

Wrede is a great writer, if she could just get her books
out a little bit faster. Her current WIP has been in progress
for years now.

Bill
Bill Gill
2018-02-20 14:21:45 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Jaimie Vandenbergh
I can think of various pretty upbeat fantasy books in the last decade,
but not much in SF. It tends towards the grimdark and meathook. Or
perhaps my purchasing habits do, in which case I'd like more cheer.
Anyone? Space opera if possible. Pref not YA, but I'll take it. All I
can think of -
Sea Wasps's Grand Central Arena books
Mitch Benn's _Terra_ and _Terra's World_
Bujold's Vorkosiverse, generally.
Erm...
That's it.
Cheers - Jaimie
I just recently found "The Wrong Stars" by Tim Pratt. It is
Space Opera. Pratt says so in his postscript. Previously
he has written fantasy. But this one is a pretty good start
on a new SF series.

Bill
Scott Lurndal
2018-02-20 14:37:45 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Jaimie Vandenbergh
I can think of various pretty upbeat fantasy books in the last decade,
but not much in SF. It tends towards the grimdark and meathook. Or
perhaps my purchasing habits do, in which case I'd like more cheer.
Anyone? Space opera if possible. Pref not YA, but I'll take it. All I
can think of -
Sea Wasps's Grand Central Arena books
Mitch Benn's _Terra_ and _Terra's World_
Bujold's Vorkosiverse, generally.
Erm...
That's it.
Jack Campbell's _Pillars of Reality_ lost colony series, and
the follow-on series are generally upbeat.
Steve Coltrin
2018-02-20 14:43:32 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
begin fnord
Post by Jaimie Vandenbergh
I can think of various pretty upbeat fantasy books in the last decade,
but not much in SF. It tends towards the grimdark and meathook. Or
perhaps my purchasing habits do, in which case I'd like more cheer.
Anyone? Space opera if possible.
_The Long Way to a Small, Angry Planet_? I don't know, I fell into a
boredom coma twenty pages in.
--
Steve Coltrin ***@omcl.org Google Groups killfiled here
"A group known as the League of Human Dignity helped arrange for Deuel
to be driven to a local livestock scale, where he could be weighed."
- Associated Press
James Nicoll
2018-02-20 15:50:03 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Steve Coltrin
begin fnord
Post by Jaimie Vandenbergh
I can think of various pretty upbeat fantasy books in the last decade,
but not much in SF. It tends towards the grimdark and meathook. Or
perhaps my purchasing habits do, in which case I'd like more cheer.
Anyone? Space opera if possible.
_The Long Way to a Small, Angry Planet_? I don't know, I fell into a
boredom coma twenty pages in.
The second one is better but not only does it have the same issues
with basic thermo as the first one, it's considerably grimmer. The
story is about how someone escapes a crapsack world.
--
My reviews can be found at http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/
My Dreamwidth at https://james-davis-nicoll.dreamwidth.org/
My patreon is at https://www.patreon.com/jamesdnicoll
a425couple
2018-02-21 17:42:45 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Jaimie Vandenbergh
I can think of various pretty upbeat fantasy books in the last decade,
but not much in SF. It tends towards the grimdark and meathook. Or
perhaps my purchasing habits do, in which case I'd like more cheer.
Anyone? Space opera if possible. Pref not YA, but I'll take it. All I
can think of -
Sea Wasps's Grand Central Arena books
----
Flynn and Spoor's "Boundary" and it's follow-ups
qualify imho.
Lynn McGuire
2018-02-21 20:57:02 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by a425couple
Post by Jaimie Vandenbergh
I can think of various pretty upbeat fantasy books in the last decade,
but not much in SF. It tends towards the grimdark and meathook. Or
perhaps my purchasing habits do, in which case I'd like more cheer.
Anyone? Space opera if possible. Pref not YA, but I'll take it. All I
can think of -
Sea Wasps's Grand Central Arena books
----
Flynn and Spoor's "Boundary" and it's follow-ups
qualify imho.
+1

Books 4 and 5 do trend to YA though (_Castaway XXXXX_).

Lynn
Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)
2018-02-22 12:54:02 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by a425couple
Post by Jaimie Vandenbergh
I can think of various pretty upbeat fantasy books in the last decade,
but not much in SF. It tends towards the grimdark and meathook. Or
perhaps my purchasing habits do, in which case I'd like more cheer.
Anyone? Space opera if possible. Pref not YA, but I'll take it. All I
can think of -
Sea Wasps's Grand Central Arena books
----
Flynn and Spoor's "Boundary" and it's follow-ups
qualify imho.
That's Flint, not Flynn; otherwise, thanks! :)
--
Sea Wasp
/^\
;;;
Website: http://www.grandcentralarena.com Blog:
http://seawasp.dreamwidth.org
Ahasuerus
2018-02-22 14:06:55 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)
Post by a425couple
Post by Jaimie Vandenbergh
I can think of various pretty upbeat fantasy books in the last decade,
but not much in SF. It tends towards the grimdark and meathook. Or
perhaps my purchasing habits do, in which case I'd like more cheer.
Anyone? Space opera if possible. Pref not YA, but I'll take it. All
I can think of -
Sea Wasps's Grand Central Arena books
Flynn and Spoor's "Boundary" and it's follow-ups
qualify imho.
That's Flint, not Flynn; otherwise, thanks! :)
So many Baen books/authors in this thread. Are there any Baen books
that would qualify as "grimdark" or "meathook"?
Robert Woodward
2018-02-22 17:36:28 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Ahasuerus
Post by Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)
Post by a425couple
Post by Jaimie Vandenbergh
I can think of various pretty upbeat fantasy books in the last decade,
but not much in SF. It tends towards the grimdark and meathook. Or
perhaps my purchasing habits do, in which case I'd like more cheer.
Anyone? Space opera if possible. Pref not YA, but I'll take it. All
I can think of -
Sea Wasps's Grand Central Arena books
Flynn and Spoor's "Boundary" and it's follow-ups
qualify imho.
That's Flint, not Flynn; otherwise, thanks! :)
So many Baen books/authors in this thread. Are there any Baen books
that would qualify as "grimdark" or "meathook"?
Some of David Drake's books might: A few Hammer's Slammers titles; the
collections _All the Way to the Gallows_, _Grimmer than Hell_, and
_Night & Demons_ (which appears to be horror).
--
"We have advanced to new and surprising levels of bafflement."
Imperial Auditor Miles Vorkosigan describes progress in _Komarr_.
—-----------------------------------------------------
Robert Woodward ***@drizzle.com
Ted Nolan <tednolan>
2018-02-22 17:44:22 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Robert Woodward
Post by Ahasuerus
Post by Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)
Post by a425couple
Post by Jaimie Vandenbergh
I can think of various pretty upbeat fantasy books in the last decade,
but not much in SF. It tends towards the grimdark and meathook. Or
perhaps my purchasing habits do, in which case I'd like more cheer.
Anyone? Space opera if possible. Pref not YA, but I'll take it. All
I can think of -
Sea Wasps's Grand Central Arena books
Flynn and Spoor's "Boundary" and it's follow-ups
qualify imho.
That's Flint, not Flynn; otherwise, thanks! :)
So many Baen books/authors in this thread. Are there any Baen books
that would qualify as "grimdark" or "meathook"?
Some of David Drake's books might: A few Hammer's Slammers titles; the
collections _All the Way to the Gallows_, _Grimmer than Hell_, and
_Night & Demons_ (which appears to be horror).
Some of Laumer is pretty grim. "Test to Destruction" forex.
--
------
columbiaclosings.com
What's not in Columbia anymore..
Ahasuerus
2018-02-22 20:16:08 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Post by Robert Woodward
Post by Ahasuerus
Post by Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)
Post by a425couple
Post by Jaimie Vandenbergh
I can think of various pretty upbeat fantasy books in the last decade,
but not much in SF. It tends towards the grimdark and meathook. Or
perhaps my purchasing habits do, in which case I'd like more cheer.
Anyone? Space opera if possible. Pref not YA, but I'll take it. All
I can think of -
Sea Wasps's Grand Central Arena books
Flynn and Spoor's "Boundary" and it's follow-ups
qualify imho.
That's Flint, not Flynn; otherwise, thanks! :)
So many Baen books/authors in this thread. Are there any Baen books
that would qualify as "grimdark" or "meathook"?
Some of David Drake's books might: A few Hammer's Slammers titles; the
collections _All the Way to the Gallows_, _Grimmer than Hell_, and
_Night & Demons_ (which appears to be horror).
Some of Laumer is pretty grim. "Test to Destruction" forex.
Hm, and the Flandry universe is not exactly upbeat. I guess I should
have excluded classic reprints.
Mike Van Pelt
2018-02-22 23:50:51 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Ahasuerus
Hm, and the Flandry universe is not exactly upbeat. I guess
I should have excluded classic reprints.
Yeah... I loved the Trader Team stories; Flandry is later in the
same universe's history. Flandry keeps just barely staving off
the inevitable horrid bloody collapse of civilization for just a
little bit longer, but it's clear his efforts are doomed in the
not too distant future.

Good stories, but kind of depressing.

I wish there were more of Adzel, David, and Chee-Lan, even if
that meant there was less Flandry.
--
Mike Van Pelt | "I don't advise it unless you're nuts."
mvp at calweb.com | -- Ray Wilkinson, after riding out Hurricane
KE6BVH | Ike on Surfside Beach in Galveston
Dorothy J Heydt
2018-02-23 00:03:05 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Mike Van Pelt
Post by Ahasuerus
Hm, and the Flandry universe is not exactly upbeat. I guess
I should have excluded classic reprints.
Yeah... I loved the Trader Team stories; Flandry is later in the
same universe's history. Flandry keeps just barely staving off
the inevitable horrid bloody collapse of civilization for just a
little bit longer, but it's clear his efforts are doomed in the
not too distant future.
Poul wrote a couple of stories set *after* the fall of the Terran
Empire, but I forget their titles.

There's also "Day of Burning," aka "Supernova," in which it is
explained how the Merseians came to hate Terrans in the first
place.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Stephen Harker
2018-02-23 06:42:09 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Mike Van Pelt
Post by Ahasuerus
Hm, and the Flandry universe is not exactly upbeat. I guess
I should have excluded classic reprints.
Yeah... I loved the Trader Team stories; Flandry is later in the
same universe's history. Flandry keeps just barely staving off
the inevitable horrid bloody collapse of civilization for just a
little bit longer, but it's clear his efforts are doomed in the
not too distant future.
Poul wrote a couple of stories set *after* the fall of the Terran
Empire, but I forget their titles.
The book _The Long Night_ contains several: "A Tragedy of Errors"
(Galaxy, 1967), "The Sharing of Flesh" (Galaxy, 1968) and "Starfog"
(Analog, 1967). It also has a chronology of Technic civilisation (as of
1983) which does not list other post-Empire, but there are may be some
written after that date.
--
Stephen Harker ***@netspace.net.au
http://sjharker.customer.netspace.net.au/
p***@hotmail.com
2018-02-24 23:58:45 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Mike Van Pelt
Post by Ahasuerus
Hm, and the Flandry universe is not exactly upbeat. I guess
I should have excluded classic reprints.
Yeah... I loved the Trader Team stories; Flandry is later in the
same universe's history. Flandry keeps just barely staving off
the inevitable horrid bloody collapse of civilization for just a
little bit longer, but it's clear his efforts are doomed in the
not too distant future.
Poul wrote a couple of stories set *after* the fall of the Terran
Empire, but I forget their titles.
These include _The Sharing of Flesh_, _Starfog_, and _Let the Spacemen
Beware_.

Peter Wezeman
anti-social Darwinist
Robert Carnegie
2018-02-23 07:39:41 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Mike Van Pelt
Post by Ahasuerus
Hm, and the Flandry universe is not exactly upbeat. I guess
I should have excluded classic reprints.
Yeah... I loved the Trader Team stories; Flandry is later in the
same universe's history. Flandry keeps just barely staving off
the inevitable horrid bloody collapse of civilization for just a
little bit longer, but it's clear his efforts are doomed in the
not too distant future.
My ill-informed impression is that the Empire is doomed
"only because Flandry's inner monologue tells us so and
only because the Empire doesn't have a sufficient number
of Flandrys to keep saving the day." I don't remember
if they tried cloning...
Post by Mike Van Pelt
Good stories, but kind of depressing.
I wish there were more of Adzel, David, and Chee-Lan, even if
that meant there was less Flandry.
--
Mike Van Pelt | "I don't advise it unless you're nuts."
mvp at calweb.com | -- Ray Wilkinson, after riding out Hurricane
KE6BVH | Ike on Surfside Beach in Galveston
Joy Beeson
2018-02-23 02:45:41 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On Thu, 22 Feb 2018 09:36:28 -0800, Robert Woodward
Post by Robert Woodward
Some of David Drake's books might: A few Hammer's Slammers titles; the
collections _All the Way to the Gallows_, _Grimmer than Hell_, and
_Night & Demons_ (which appears to be horror).
_Lacey and his Friends_ is grimdark, but Lacey gets a bit nicer at the
end. The title is inappropriate; the point of the stories is that
Lacey has no friends.
--
Joy Beeson
joy beeson at comcast dot net
http://wlweather.net/PAGEJOY/
m***@sky.com
2018-02-22 18:57:54 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Ahasuerus
Post by Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)
Post by a425couple
Post by Jaimie Vandenbergh
I can think of various pretty upbeat fantasy books in the last decade,
but not much in SF. It tends towards the grimdark and meathook. Or
perhaps my purchasing habits do, in which case I'd like more cheer.
Anyone? Space opera if possible. Pref not YA, but I'll take it. All
I can think of -
Sea Wasps's Grand Central Arena books
Flynn and Spoor's "Boundary" and it's follow-ups
qualify imho.
That's Flint, not Flynn; otherwise, thanks! :)
So many Baen books/authors in this thread. Are there any Baen books
that would qualify as "grimdark" or "meathook"?
I haven't read it and I think it's urban fantasy, but Larry Correia has a series explicitly called the Grimnoir Chronicles - http://www.baen.com/hard-magic-book-i-of-the-grimnoir-chronicles.html
Wolffan
2018-02-23 10:28:39 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by m***@sky.com
Post by Ahasuerus
Post by Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)
Post by a425couple
Post by Jaimie Vandenbergh
I can think of various pretty upbeat fantasy books in the last decade,
but not much in SF. It tends towards the grimdark and meathook. Or
perhaps my purchasing habits do, in which case I'd like more cheer.
Anyone? Space opera if possible. Pref not YA, but I'll take it. All
I can think of -
Sea Wasps's Grand Central Arena books
Flynn and Spoor's "Boundary" and it's follow-ups
qualify imho.
That's Flint, not Flynn; otherwise, thanks! :)
So many Baen books/authors in this thread. Are there any Baen books
that would qualify as "grimdark" or "meathook"?
I haven't read it and I think it's urban fantasy, but Larry Correia has a
series explicitly called the Grimnoir Chronicles -
http://www.baen.com/hard-magic-book-i-of-the-grimnoir-chronicles.html
It’s not urban fantasy. There’s a _Reason_ why some people ('Travelers')
can teleport (and always have grey eyes) and why some (‘Heavies’ or
‘Brutes’) can play with gravity and density and others (‘Cogs’) can
make machines which can do Really Neat Things. And there are a lot of other
special talents. There are no werewolves, vampires, elves, anything of that
kind; there are zombies, but not urban fantasy zombies, they’re raised by
one of the special talents, they’re in constant pain from whatever killed
them, and they hang around forever unless killed again. The protagonist is a
Heavy, and he and his two brothers saw action with the American Expeditionary
Force in France in their alt-WWI against the Kaiser’s zombies. (There
won’t be an alt-WWII of the type we had; Ferdinand von Zeppelin was a Cog
and was Really Good with airships, Nikola Tesla was another Cog and, among
other things, invented Really Good electric weapons of mass destruction.
What’s left of the Kaiser’s zombies are locked up in Dead City, a.k.a.
Berlin, and it’s a really bad idea for non-zombies to go there. And Adolf
Hitler tried to pull a coup in Munich and was shot by veterans of the War who
really didn’t want another one, the last one was bad enough, thanks. And,
oh, Japan owns the Pacific.)

In any case. the protag finds out the Reason, and spends the rest of the
trilogy trying to do something about it. There are airships, and Lewis guns,
and heavily modified Browning Automatic Rifles (John Moses Browning is a Cog;
guess what he specializes in) and Tesla super weapons, and pirates in
airships, and corrupt Feds, lots of zombies, and a baddie which eats all life
on various versions of Earth.
David Johnston
2018-02-23 11:07:31 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by m***@sky.com
Post by Ahasuerus
Post by Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)
Post by a425couple
Post by Jaimie Vandenbergh
I can think of various pretty upbeat fantasy books in the last decade,
but not much in SF. It tends towards the grimdark and meathook. Or
perhaps my purchasing habits do, in which case I'd like more cheer.
Anyone? Space opera if possible. Pref not YA, but I'll take it. All
I can think of -
Sea Wasps's Grand Central Arena books
Flynn and Spoor's "Boundary" and it's follow-ups
qualify imho.
That's Flint, not Flynn; otherwise, thanks! :)
So many Baen books/authors in this thread. Are there any Baen books
that would qualify as "grimdark" or "meathook"?
I haven't read it and I think it's urban fantasy, but Larry Correia has a series explicitly called the Grimnoir Chronicles - http://www.baen.com/hard-magic-book-i-of-the-grimnoir-chronicles.html
What it really is, is: "superhero". But dark and gritty pulpy superhero.
Kevrob
2018-02-23 13:03:20 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by David Johnston
Post by m***@sky.com
I haven't read it and I think it's urban fantasy, but Larry Correia has a series explicitly called the Grimnoir Chronicles - http://www.baen.com/hard-magic-book-i-of-the-grimnoir-chronicles.html
What it really is, is: "superhero". But dark and gritty pulpy superhero.
The cognate comic book superhero trope is "grim and gritty."*

Kevin R

* It's essentially a call-back to the comics' heroes roots
in the pulps: Kane/Finger BATMAN is their version of THE SHADOW
or THE SPIDER, toned down by the editors for the kids. Bats loses
more and more of the "scary creature of the night" schtick after
teaming with Robin, becoming a bad sci-fi comic in the post-Code
50s, then recovering some as the "World's Greatest Detective"
under the 1960s editorship of Julie Schwartz. TV Batman operates
in broad daylight with camp replacing spooky. Schwartz has
mysteriousness reinjected by O'Neill and Adams and others as the
1970s start, going so far as to exile Dick Grayson to Hudson U.
and his own backup strip. "Grim & gritty" is turned to 11 by
Frank Miller, who had been illustrating a similar version of
Marvel's DAREDEVIL. Roger McKenzie wrote the early Miller issues
and got the "dark" ball rolling.
Lynn McGuire
2018-02-23 19:24:13 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by m***@sky.com
Post by Ahasuerus
Post by a425couple
Post by Jaimie Vandenbergh
I can think of various pretty upbeat fantasy books in the last decade,
but not much in SF. It tends towards the grimdark and meathook. Or
perhaps my purchasing habits do, in which case I'd like more cheer.
Anyone? Space opera if possible. Pref not YA, but I'll take it. All
I can think of -
Sea Wasps's Grand Central Arena books
Flynn and Spoor's "Boundary" and it's follow-ups
qualify imho.
    That's Flint, not Flynn; otherwise, thanks! :)
So many Baen books/authors in this thread. Are there any Baen books
that would qualify as "grimdark" or "meathook"?
I haven't read it and I think it's urban fantasy, but Larry Correia
has a series explicitly called the Grimnoir Chronicles -
http://www.baen.com/hard-magic-book-i-of-the-grimnoir-chronicles.html
What it really is, is: "superhero".  But dark and gritty pulpy superhero.
Batman level of dark and gritty. Maybe darker.

Lynn
David Johnston
2018-02-23 20:54:45 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by m***@sky.com
Post by Ahasuerus
Post by a425couple
Post by Jaimie Vandenbergh
I can think of various pretty upbeat fantasy books in the last decade,
but not much in SF. It tends towards the grimdark and meathook. Or
perhaps my purchasing habits do, in which case I'd like more cheer.
Anyone? Space opera if possible. Pref not YA, but I'll take it. All
I can think of -
Sea Wasps's Grand Central Arena books
Flynn and Spoor's "Boundary" and it's follow-ups
qualify imho.
    That's Flint, not Flynn; otherwise, thanks! :)
So many Baen books/authors in this thread. Are there any Baen books
that would qualify as "grimdark" or "meathook"?
I haven't read it and I think it's urban fantasy, but Larry Correia
has a series explicitly called the Grimnoir Chronicles -
http://www.baen.com/hard-magic-book-i-of-the-grimnoir-chronicles.html
What it really is, is: "superhero".  But dark and gritty pulpy superhero.
Batman level of dark and gritty.  Maybe darker.
Lynn
X-Men level really.
Lynn McGuire
2018-02-23 02:35:58 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Ahasuerus
Post by Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)
Post by a425couple
Post by Jaimie Vandenbergh
I can think of various pretty upbeat fantasy books in the last decade,
but not much in SF. It tends towards the grimdark and meathook. Or
perhaps my purchasing habits do, in which case I'd like more cheer.
Anyone? Space opera if possible. Pref not YA, but I'll take it. All
I can think of -
Sea Wasps's Grand Central Arena books
Flynn and Spoor's "Boundary" and it's follow-ups
qualify imho.
That's Flint, not Flynn; otherwise, thanks! :)
So many Baen books/authors in this thread. Are there any Baen books
that would qualify as "grimdark" or "meathook"?
Anything that Larry Correia writes. Several of John Ringo's books
qualify also. I am not sure where to put _Ghost_.

https://www.amazon.com/International-Monster-Hunter-Larry-Correia/dp/1439132852/

Lynn
Jaimie Vandenbergh
2018-02-23 00:10:05 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by a425couple
Post by Jaimie Vandenbergh
I can think of various pretty upbeat fantasy books in the last decade,
but not much in SF. It tends towards the grimdark and meathook. Or
perhaps my purchasing habits do, in which case I'd like more cheer.
Anyone? Space opera if possible. Pref not YA, but I'll take it. All I
can think of -
Sea Wasps's Grand Central Arena books
----
Flynn and Spoor's "Boundary" and it's follow-ups
Second point to Sea Wasp :) Already got'em though.

Cheers - Jaimie
--
"If I'd been the Green Goblin, I'd have got a big bath and lured
Spiderman into it, and being a spider he wouldn't have been able
to climb out. Muahahaha." -- Paul Clark, urs
Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)
2018-02-22 12:46:08 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Jaimie Vandenbergh
I can think of various pretty upbeat fantasy books in the last decade,
but not much in SF. It tends towards the grimdark and meathook. Or
perhaps my purchasing habits do, in which case I'd like more cheer.
Anyone? Space opera if possible. Pref not YA, but I'll take it. All I
can think of -
Sea Wasps's Grand Central Arena books
Mitch Benn's _Terra_ and _Terra's World_
Bujold's Vorkosiverse, generally.
Erm...
That's it.
Cheers - Jaimie
Have you read the Liaden books? I've been reading them recently and
despite all sorts of disastrous events in one or another, they're upbeat
in a way that strongly reminds me of James Schmitz' work.
--
Sea Wasp
/^\
;;;
Website: http://www.grandcentralarena.com Blog:
http://seawasp.dreamwidth.org
Mike Van Pelt
2018-02-22 23:45:33 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)
Have you read the Liaden books? I've been reading them recently and
despite all sorts of disastrous events in one or another, they're upbeat
in a way that strongly reminds me of James Schmitz' work.
Really? Hm... I'll have to check them out, then. I kind of had
a negative feeling about them for some reason; no idea why.
Schmitz is one of my old favorites.
--
Mike Van Pelt | "I don't advise it unless you're nuts."
mvp at calweb.com | -- Ray Wilkinson, after riding out Hurricane
KE6BVH | Ike on Surfside Beach in Galveston
Default User
2018-02-23 02:56:09 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Mike Van Pelt
Post by Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)
Have you read the Liaden books? I've been reading them recently and
despite all sorts of disastrous events in one or another, they're
upbeat in a way that strongly reminds me of James Schmitz' work.
Really? Hm... I'll have to check them out, then. I kind of had
a negative feeling about them for some reason; no idea why.
Schmitz is one of my old favorites.
I read some of the short story collections a while back. What I don't
care for is the whole clan duty/balance stuff.


Brian
Mike Van Pelt
2018-02-23 22:16:10 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Default User
Post by Mike Van Pelt
Post by Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)
Have you read the Liaden books? I've been reading them recently and
despite all sorts of disastrous events in one or another, they're
upbeat in a way that strongly reminds me of James Schmitz' work.
Really? Hm... I'll have to check them out, then. I kind of had
a negative feeling about them for some reason; no idea why.
Schmitz is one of my old favorites.
I read some of the short story collections a while back. What I don't
care for is the whole clan duty/balance stuff.
Ah. Something I heard or read about the Liaden stories must
have gone into that, and triggered the "meh. fantasy." filter
in my brain.

I get the Baen podcast, and they're currently running the
audiobook of "Alliance of Equals". I listened to the first
couple of those a few months ago, and lost interest.
--
Mike Van Pelt | "I don't advise it unless you're nuts."
mvp at calweb.com | -- Ray Wilkinson, after riding out Hurricane
KE6BVH | Ike on Surfside Beach in Galveston
Ted Nolan <tednolan>
2018-02-23 23:16:28 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Default User
Post by Mike Van Pelt
Post by Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)
Have you read the Liaden books? I've been reading them recently and
despite all sorts of disastrous events in one or another, they're
upbeat in a way that strongly reminds me of James Schmitz' work.
Really? Hm... I'll have to check them out, then. I kind of had
a negative feeling about them for some reason; no idea why.
Schmitz is one of my old favorites.
I read some of the short story collections a while back. What I don't
care for is the whole clan duty/balance stuff.
It's a different way to organize society than we use, but it doesn't
seem outside the normal human range. We even have the concept
of "hats" which is a diluted version.
--
------
columbiaclosings.com
What's not in Columbia anymore..
Gene Wirchenko
2018-02-25 00:35:59 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On 23 Feb 2018 23:16:28 GMT, ***@loft.tnolan.com (Ted Nolan
<tednolan>) wrote:

[snip]
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
It's a different way to organize society than we use, but it doesn't
seem outside the normal human range. We even have the concept
of "hats" which is a diluted version.
What is that concept, please?

Sincerely,

Gene Wirchenko
Michael R N Dolbear
2018-02-25 00:53:02 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
<tednolan>) wrote:

[snip]
Post by Gene Wirchenko
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
It's a different way to organize society than we use, but it doesn't
seem outside the normal human range. We even have the concept
of "hats" which is a diluted version.
What is that concept, please?
http://www.pcwrede.com/the-hat-lecture/
--
Mike D
Gene Wirchenko
2018-02-25 04:41:03 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On Sun, 25 Feb 2018 00:53:02 -0000, "Michael R N Dolbear"
Post by Gene Wirchenko
[snip]
Post by Gene Wirchenko
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
It's a different way to organize society than we use, but it doesn't
seem outside the normal human range. We even have the concept
of "hats" which is a diluted version.
What is that concept, please?
http://www.pcwrede.com/the-hat-lecture/
Thank you.

Sincerely,

Gene Wirchenko
Ted Nolan <tednolan>
2018-02-25 08:24:38 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Gene Wirchenko
On Sun, 25 Feb 2018 00:53:02 -0000, "Michael R N Dolbear"
Post by Gene Wirchenko
[snip]
Post by Gene Wirchenko
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
It's a different way to organize society than we use, but it doesn't
seem outside the normal human range. We even have the concept
of "hats" which is a diluted version.
What is that concept, please?
http://www.pcwrede.com/the-hat-lecture/
Thank you.
Sincerely,
Gene Wirchenko
And somewhat, though not exactly, related, but classic:

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x3svl22
--
------
columbiaclosings.com
What's not in Columbia anymore..
Dorothy J Heydt
2018-02-25 15:10:34 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Post by Gene Wirchenko
On Sun, 25 Feb 2018 00:53:02 -0000, "Michael R N Dolbear"
Post by Gene Wirchenko
[snip]
Post by Gene Wirchenko
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
It's a different way to organize society than we use, but it doesn't
seem outside the normal human range. We even have the concept
of "hats" which is a diluted version.
What is that concept, please?
http://www.pcwrede.com/the-hat-lecture/
Thank you.
Sincerely,
Gene Wirchenko
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x3svl22
Hm. I got a black featureless window for about a second, and
then that went away; I now have a plain white screen, and the URL
has added ?retry to it.

What was it supposed to be?
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Ted Nolan <tednolan>
2018-02-25 17:16:57 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Post by Gene Wirchenko
On Sun, 25 Feb 2018 00:53:02 -0000, "Michael R N Dolbear"
Post by Gene Wirchenko
[snip]
Post by Gene Wirchenko
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
It's a different way to organize society than we use, but it doesn't
seem outside the normal human range. We even have the concept
of "hats" which is a diluted version.
What is that concept, please?
http://www.pcwrede.com/the-hat-lecture/
Thank you.
Sincerely,
Gene Wirchenko
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x3svl22
Hm. I got a black featureless window for about a second, and
then that went away; I now have a plain white screen, and the URL
has added ?retry to it.
What was it supposed to be?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bugs%27_Bonnets

I hate dailymotion, but Warner has made sure that many classic shorts
are not on youtube.
--
------
columbiaclosings.com
What's not in Columbia anymore..
Dorothy J Heydt
2018-02-25 05:44:53 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Gene Wirchenko
[snip]
Post by Gene Wirchenko
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
It's a different way to organize society than we use, but it doesn't
seem outside the normal human range. We even have the concept
of "hats" which is a diluted version.
What is that concept, please?
http://www.pcwrede.com/the-hat-lecture/
And of course she said it much better than I did.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Robert Carnegie
2018-02-25 15:28:32 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Gene Wirchenko
[snip]
Post by Gene Wirchenko
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
It's a different way to organize society than we use, but it doesn't
seem outside the normal human range. We even have the concept
of "hats" which is a diluted version.
What is that concept, please?
http://www.pcwrede.com/the-hat-lecture/
Her regular readers, I take it, will not have spent the two paragraphs
that I did wondering if "the submission process" is a sex thing.
Dorothy J Heydt
2018-02-25 16:36:04 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by Gene Wirchenko
[snip]
Post by Gene Wirchenko
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
It's a different way to organize society than we use, but it doesn't
seem outside the normal human range. We even have the concept
of "hats" which is a diluted version.
What is that concept, please?
http://www.pcwrede.com/the-hat-lecture/
Her regular readers, I take it, will not have spent the two paragraphs
that I did wondering if "the submission process" is a sex thing.
Well, no. She originally posted it, IIRC, on
rec.arts.sf.composition, which is not (as some have mistaken it
to be) a music site.

The topic of that now-defunct group, if anybody needs to know,
was about the process of writing F/SF, and the subsequent process
of trying to sell it.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
D B Davis
2018-02-25 17:22:22 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by Gene Wirchenko
[snip]
Post by Gene Wirchenko
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
It's a different way to organize society than we use, but it doesn't
seem outside the normal human range. We even have the concept
of "hats" which is a diluted version.
What is that concept, please?
http://www.pcwrede.com/the-hat-lecture/
Her regular readers, I take it, will not have spent the two paragraphs
that I did wondering if "the submission process" is a sex thing.
This part seems like a good spot to park my own two cents. Although the
"hat" concept was already known to me, the hint of sexual content (no
matter how non-existent) trolls me just enough to actually click on
Wrede's link nonetheless. [1]
"All hat, no cowboy" turns the concept of "hats" upside down. It
denotes someone who physically wears a cowboy hat but doesn't know how
to act like a cowboy because they don't know the first thing about
being a real cowboy. It's someone who sort of "talks the talk" but
can't "walk the walk."
Disclosure: neither the cowboy hat nor the cowboy persona work for
me personally. But if it works for others, so be it.
A California congress critter named Maxine Walters, is sometimes
seen wearing a gaudy cowboy hat. She seems to wear it as a sort of
"look at me" prop. Walters' hat is good for the lulz, if nothing else.
A few months ago the world's most famous Reality TV troll tweeted
Walters. She took the tweet as giving her rock star status. So the
political hacks on the opposite side of the aisle made snide remarks
about how Walters wears no cowboy hat. They said she wears an a$$hat.

*** rimshot ***

Note.

1. "The Logic of Empire" (RAH) talks about the sex-as-a-troll to pull
you in, to hook you, gambit. And "confession magazine" makes yet
another appearance.

Jones called the day that Wingate got his revised
manuscript back from his ghost writer. "Listen to this, Sam,"
he pleaded. "Look, what the dirty so-and-so has done to my
book. Look. '- I heard again the crack of the overseer's whip.
The frail body of my mate shook under the lash. He gave one
cough and slid slowly under the waist-deep water, dragged
down by his chains.' Honest, Sam, did you ever see such
drivel? And look at the new title: '/I Was a Slave on Venus/.'
It sounds like a confession magazine.
Jones nodded without replying. "And listen to this,"
Wingate went on, "'- crowded like cattle in the enclosure,
their naked bodies gleaming with sweat, the women slaves
shrank from the -' Oh, hell, I can't go on!"
"Well they did wear nothing but harnesses."
"Yes, yes - but that has nothing to do with the case.
Venus costume is a necessary concomitant of the weather.
There's no excuse to leer about it. He's turned my book
into a damned sex show. And he had the nerve to defend
his actions. He claimed that social pamphleteering is
dependent on extravagant language."

Thank you,

--
Don
J. Clarke
2018-02-25 17:28:02 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by D B Davis
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by Gene Wirchenko
[snip]
Post by Gene Wirchenko
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
It's a different way to organize society than we use, but it doesn't
seem outside the normal human range. We even have the concept
of "hats" which is a diluted version.
What is that concept, please?
http://www.pcwrede.com/the-hat-lecture/
Her regular readers, I take it, will not have spent the two paragraphs
that I did wondering if "the submission process" is a sex thing.
This part seems like a good spot to park my own two cents. Although the
"hat" concept was already known to me, the hint of sexual content (no
matter how non-existent) trolls me just enough to actually click on
Wrede's link nonetheless. [1]
"All hat, no cowboy" turns the concept of "hats" upside down. It
denotes someone who physically wears a cowboy hat but doesn't know how
to act like a cowboy because they don't know the first thing about
being a real cowboy. It's someone who sort of "talks the talk" but
can't "walk the walk."
I've not heard "all hat, no cowboy" before. The way I alwasy heard it
was "all hat, no cows" for someone who makes a big show of being a
rancher but doesn't actually own a ranch.
Post by D B Davis
Disclosure: neither the cowboy hat nor the cowboy persona work for
me personally. But if it works for others, so be it.
A California congress critter named Maxine Walters, is sometimes
seen wearing a gaudy cowboy hat. She seems to wear it as a sort of
"look at me" prop. Walters' hat is good for the lulz, if nothing else.
A few months ago the world's most famous Reality TV troll tweeted
Walters. She took the tweet as giving her rock star status. So the
political hacks on the opposite side of the aisle made snide remarks
about how Walters wears no cowboy hat. They said she wears an a$$hat.
*** rimshot ***
Note.
1. "The Logic of Empire" (RAH) talks about the sex-as-a-troll to pull
you in, to hook you, gambit. And "confession magazine" makes yet
another appearance.
Jones called the day that Wingate got his revised
manuscript back from his ghost writer. "Listen to this, Sam,"
he pleaded. "Look, what the dirty so-and-so has done to my
book. Look. '- I heard again the crack of the overseer's whip.
The frail body of my mate shook under the lash. He gave one
cough and slid slowly under the waist-deep water, dragged
down by his chains.' Honest, Sam, did you ever see such
drivel? And look at the new title: '/I Was a Slave on Venus/.'
It sounds like a confession magazine.
Jones nodded without replying. "And listen to this,"
Wingate went on, "'- crowded like cattle in the enclosure,
their naked bodies gleaming with sweat, the women slaves
shrank from the -' Oh, hell, I can't go on!"
"Well they did wear nothing but harnesses."
"Yes, yes - but that has nothing to do with the case.
Venus costume is a necessary concomitant of the weather.
There's no excuse to leer about it. He's turned my book
into a damned sex show. And he had the nerve to defend
his actions. He claimed that social pamphleteering is
dependent on extravagant language."
Thank you,
Ted Nolan <tednolan>
2018-02-25 01:11:25 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Gene Wirchenko
[snip]
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
It's a different way to organize society than we use, but it doesn't
seem outside the normal human range. We even have the concept
of "hats" which is a diluted version.
What is that concept, please?
Sincerely,
Gene Wirchenko
If you are refereeing your kid's Little League game, you are wearing your
Referee Hat, not your Dad Hat, and are expected to be totally unbiased
in your calls. There may even be a slight expecation that you are a little
harder on his team.

If I am wearing my Boss Hat, I may have to fire you even though we are
friends.
--
------
columbiaclosings.com
What's not in Columbia anymore..
Robert Woodward
2018-02-25 05:47:51 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Post by Gene Wirchenko
[snip]
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
It's a different way to organize society than we use, but it doesn't
seem outside the normal human range. We even have the concept
of "hats" which is a diluted version.
What is that concept, please?
Sincerely,
Gene Wirchenko
If you are refereeing your kid's Little League game, you are wearing your
Referee Hat, not your Dad Hat, and are expected to be totally unbiased
in your calls. There may even be a slight expecation that you are a little
harder on his team.
If I am wearing my Boss Hat, I may have to fire you even though we are
friends.
Also, an example specific to r.a.sf.w, Terry Austin appears to have a
Troll hat by his computer that he puts on when he is bored with a thread.
--
"We have advanced to new and surprising levels of bafflement."
Imperial Auditor Miles Vorkosigan describes progress in _Komarr_.
‹-----------------------------------------------------
Robert Woodward ***@drizzle.com
Wolffan
2018-02-25 13:28:47 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Robert Woodward
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Post by Gene Wirchenko
[snip]
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
It's a different way to organize society than we use, but it doesn't
seem outside the normal human range. We even have the concept
of "hats" which is a diluted version.
What is that concept, please?
Sincerely,
Gene Wirchenko
If you are refereeing your kid's Little League game, you are wearing your
Referee Hat, not your Dad Hat, and are expected to be totally unbiased
in your calls. There may even be a slight expecation that you are a little
harder on his team.
If I am wearing my Boss Hat, I may have to fire you even though we are
friends.
Also, an example specific to r.a.sf.w, Terry Austin appears to have a
Troll hat by his computer that he puts on when he is bored with a thread.
Surely you mean ‘Terry Austin has a troll-hat which he never takes off’.
Dorothy J Heydt
2018-02-25 15:11:28 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Robert Woodward
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Post by Gene Wirchenko
[snip]
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
It's a different way to organize society than we use, but it doesn't
seem outside the normal human range. We even have the concept
of "hats" which is a diluted version.
What is that concept, please?
Sincerely,
Gene Wirchenko
If you are refereeing your kid's Little League game, you are wearing your
Referee Hat, not your Dad Hat, and are expected to be totally unbiased
in your calls. There may even be a slight expecation that you are a little
harder on his team.
If I am wearing my Boss Hat, I may have to fire you even though we are
friends.
Also, an example specific to r.a.sf.w, Terry Austin appears to have a
Troll hat by his computer that he puts on when he is bored with a thread.
You may have a point there. I like Terry, but only when he's
being (so to speak) the real Terry.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Dorothy J Heydt
2018-02-25 05:43:01 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Gene Wirchenko
[snip]
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
It's a different way to organize society than we use, but it doesn't
seem outside the normal human range. We even have the concept
of "hats" which is a diluted version.
What is that concept, please?
Well, to me it means separate duties whereof any individual can
have several of, to exercise by turns. E.g., a writer has a
writing hat (note: the hats have no physical existence), which
she "wears" while writing. After the writing is done, or
optionally between spells of writing, she puts on the editor hat
and fixes spelling, punctuation, details of style. Then she puts
on the secretary's hat and mails out the manuscript. While
wearing the secreatary's hat, she does not worry about whether
the thing will sell; her only task is to get the thing into the
mail. After that she resumes the writer's hat and starts on the
next project.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
J. Clarke
2018-02-25 06:43:08 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Gene Wirchenko
[snip]
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
It's a different way to organize society than we use, but it doesn't
seem outside the normal human range. We even have the concept
of "hats" which is a diluted version.
What is that concept, please?
Your former college roomate, who is now the captain of the ship in
which you are serving, may converse with you wearing his ex-roomate
hat, which means that he's your friend, or his captain's hat, which
means that he's your boss. Just to take one example.

For a current science fictional example, in "The Orville" the Captain
and the Executive Officer are divorced from each other, so they may
interact using their Captain and XO hats, or they may interact using
their ex-spouses hats.
Wolffan
2018-02-25 13:30:18 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by J. Clarke
Post by Gene Wirchenko
[snip]
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
It's a different way to organize society than we use, but it doesn't
seem outside the normal human range. We even have the concept
of "hats" which is a diluted version.
What is that concept, please?
Your former college roomate, who is now the captain of the ship in
which you are serving, may converse with you wearing his ex-roomate
hat, which means that he's your friend, or his captain's hat, which
means that he's your boss. Just to take one example.
For a current science fictional example, in "The Orville" the Captain
and the Executive Officer are divorced from each other, so they may
interact using their Captain and XO hats, or they may interact using
their ex-spouses hats.
From the little I saw of the first and only episode which I watched, mostly
they wear their immature brat hats.
Dorothy J Heydt
2018-02-25 15:14:45 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by J. Clarke
Post by Gene Wirchenko
[snip]
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
It's a different way to organize society than we use, but it doesn't
seem outside the normal human range. We even have the concept
of "hats" which is a diluted version.
What is that concept, please?
Your former college roomate, who is now the captain of the ship in
which you are serving, may converse with you wearing his ex-roomate
hat, which means that he's your friend, or his captain's hat, which
means that he's your boss. Just to take one example.
For a current science fictional example, in "The Orville" the Captain
and the Executive Officer are divorced from each other, so they may
interact using their Captain and XO hats, or they may interact using
their ex-spouses hats.
Consider the stories by O'Brien in which the Captain can never
take off his Captain's hat except with his friend the Doctor.
And how Darwin went along on the Beagle so that the Captain
thereof could have somebody along with whom he could take off the
Captain hat. It was partly ship's discipline and partly the
class system. But each of these appears to be a situation where
the Captain has only one hat, the Captain hat, which he can never
remove except among his peers, of whom on shipboard he has either
one or none.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
D B Davis
2018-02-25 18:20:04 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by J. Clarke
Post by Gene Wirchenko
[snip]
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
It's a different way to organize society than we use, but it doesn't
seem outside the normal human range. We even have the concept
of "hats" which is a diluted version.
What is that concept, please?
Your former college roomate, who is now the captain of the ship in
which you are serving, may converse with you wearing his ex-roomate
hat, which means that he's your friend, or his captain's hat, which
means that he's your boss. Just to take one example.
For a current science fictional example, in "The Orville" the Captain
and the Executive Officer are divorced from each other, so they may
interact using their Captain and XO hats, or they may interact using
their ex-spouses hats.
Consider the stories by O'Brien in which the Captain can never
take off his Captain's hat except with his friend the Doctor.
And how Darwin went along on the Beagle so that the Captain
thereof could have somebody along with whom he could take off the
Captain hat. It was partly ship's discipline and partly the
class system. But each of these appears to be a situation where
the Captain has only one hat, the Captain hat, which he can never
remove except among his peers, of whom on shipboard he has either
one or none.
ITYM O'Brian. As you know, the captain who can doff his hat in the
company of the good doctor also appears in the Star Trek franchise.
Sherlock Holmes doesn't command. Does he ever truly take off his
deerstalker hat, even when he's alone with Dr Watson?

Thank you,

--
Don

Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)
2018-02-24 00:15:09 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Default User
Post by Mike Van Pelt
Post by Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)
Have you read the Liaden books? I've been reading them recently and
despite all sorts of disastrous events in one or another, they're
upbeat in a way that strongly reminds me of James Schmitz' work.
Really? Hm... I'll have to check them out, then. I kind of had
a negative feeling about them for some reason; no idea why.
Schmitz is one of my old favorites.
I read some of the short story collections a while back. What I don't
care for is the whole clan duty/balance stuff.
Oh, I love that. It's one of the drivers of the way things work. Though
I don't think starting with a short story collection would be the right
way to encounter it; I'd start with a novel. As before, _Agent of
Change_ is my recommendation, partly because that's the first written.
--
Sea Wasp
/^\
;;;
Website: http://www.grandcentralarena.com Blog:
http://seawasp.dreamwidth.org
Default User
2018-02-24 17:08:35 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)
Post by Default User
I read some of the short story collections a while back. What I
don't care for is the whole clan duty/balance stuff.
Oh, I love that. It's one of the drivers of the way things work.
Though I don't think starting with a short story collection would be
the right way to encounter it; I'd start with a novel. As before,
_Agent of Change_ is my recommendation, partly because that's the
first written.
I should clarify that I read several of the novels years ago. I
stopped, and was left with a remembrance that I didn't like the series,
but didn't exactly recall why. Read the collections reminded me.


Brian
Jaimie Vandenbergh
2018-02-23 00:11:57 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On Thu, 22 Feb 2018 07:46:08 -0500, "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)"
Post by Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)
Post by Jaimie Vandenbergh
I can think of various pretty upbeat fantasy books in the last decade,
but not much in SF. It tends towards the grimdark and meathook. Or
perhaps my purchasing habits do, in which case I'd like more cheer.
Anyone? Space opera if possible. Pref not YA, but I'll take it. All I
can think of -
Sea Wasps's Grand Central Arena books
Mitch Benn's _Terra_ and _Terra's World_
Bujold's Vorkosiverse, generally.
Erm...
That's it.
Cheers - Jaimie
Have you read the Liaden books? I've been reading them recently and
despite all sorts of disastrous events in one or another, they're upbeat
in a way that strongly reminds me of James Schmitz' work.
That's about three votes for those. Tagged for near-future purchase, as
are a couple of other things noted in the thread, plus continuing to
read the Lost Fleet series after all. Thanks to everyone so far - more
suggestions welcome!

Cheers - Jaimie
--
"You could say that Apple charges for incremental upgrades while
Microsoft charges for excremental ones" -- Daniel James, uk.c.h
Lynn McGuire
2018-02-23 04:30:59 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Jaimie Vandenbergh
I can think of various pretty upbeat fantasy books in the last decade,
but not much in SF. It tends towards the grimdark and meathook. Or
perhaps my purchasing habits do, in which case I'd like more cheer.
Anyone? Space opera if possible. Pref not YA, but I'll take it. All I
can think of -
Sea Wasps's Grand Central Arena books
Mitch Benn's _Terra_ and _Terra's World_
Bujold's Vorkosiverse, generally.
Erm...
That's it.
Cheers - Jaimie
I would also like to nominate Sarah Hoyt's Good Man series. It is space
opera with a large side of romance.
https://www.amazon.com/DarkShip-Thieves-Sarah-Hoyt/dp/1439133174/

Sarah Hoyt's shape changer series is also very well done but it is not
space opera, it is urban fantasy.
https://www.amazon.com/Night-Shifters-Sarah-Hoyt/dp/1476736510/

Jack McDevitt's Alex Benedict series is also very good space opera. So
is his Academy series but it stretched back over two decades.
https://www.amazon.com/Talent-War-Jack-McDevitt/dp/0441012175/

Ben Bova's Star Quest series was not bad either. The only real down
side is the constant mention of climate change flooding the Earth. I
have yet to read the fourth book in the series though. And there is
also his Grand Tour of the Solar system series.
https://www.amazon.com/New-Earth-Star-Quest-Trilogy/dp/0765368072/

Markos Kloos's Frontline series is excellent. His depictions of the
North American continent in 2108 with more than one billion inhabitants
is quite sobering. His space travels and battles among the stars are
awesome.

https://www.amazon.com/Terms-Enlistment-Frontlines-Marko-Kloos/dp/1477809783/

Joe Haldeman's Marsbound trilogy is ok space opera, not great.
https://www.amazon.com/Marsbound-Joe-Haldeman/dp/B0073N5WUK/

Lynn
Lynn McGuire
2018-02-23 04:34:28 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Jaimie Vandenbergh
I can think of various pretty upbeat fantasy books in the last decade,
but not much in SF. It tends towards the grimdark and meathook. Or
perhaps my purchasing habits do, in which case I'd like more cheer.
Anyone? Space opera if possible. Pref not YA, but I'll take it. All I
can think of -
Sea Wasps's Grand Central Arena books
Mitch Benn's _Terra_ and _Terra's World_
Bujold's Vorkosiverse, generally.
Erm...
That's it.
Cheers - Jaimie
Hey, _Terra_ looks like an inverted version of _The Star Beast_, one of
my favorite top ten books of all times. Maybe ...
https://www.amazon.com/Terra-Mitch-Benn/dp/0575132094/

Lynn
larry
2018-02-24 13:38:05 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Jaimie Vandenbergh
I can think of various pretty upbeat fantasy books in the last decade,
but not much in SF. It tends towards the grimdark and meathook. Or
perhaps my purchasing habits do, in which case I'd like more cheer.
Anyone? Space opera if possible. Pref not YA, but I'll take it. All I
can think of -
Sea Wasps's Grand Central Arena books
Mitch Benn's _Terra_ and _Terra's World_
Bujold's Vorkosiverse, generally.
Erm...
That's it.
Cheers - Jaimie
Graydon Saunders - the Commonweal
Leonard Richardson - Constellation Games
Nathan Lowell - the Share series
--
After investigation, believe that which you have yourselves
tested and found reasonable, and which is for your good
and that of others.
Gautama.
Jaimie Vandenbergh
2018-02-24 14:32:11 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by larry
Post by Jaimie Vandenbergh
I can think of various pretty upbeat fantasy books in the last decade,
but not much in SF. It tends towards the grimdark and meathook. Or
perhaps my purchasing habits do, in which case I'd like more cheer.
Anyone? Space opera if possible. Pref not YA, but I'll take it. All I
can think of -
Sea Wasps's Grand Central Arena books
Mitch Benn's _Terra_ and _Terra's World_
Bujold's Vorkosiverse, generally.
Erm...
That's it.
Cheers - Jaimie
Graydon Saunders - the Commonweal
*waggles hand* It's a bit of a post-apocalyptic scenario, though in a
rebuilding bucolic sort of state. They are great books though.
Post by larry
Leonard Richardson - Constellation Games
Nathan Lowell - the Share series
Noted - never heard of these ones.

Cheers - Jaimie
--
Love is a snowmobile racing across the tundra and then suddenly it
flips over, pinning you underneath. At night, the ice weasels come.
- Nietzsche (via Groening)
Dorothy J Heydt
2018-02-24 15:52:48 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Jaimie Vandenbergh
Post by larry
Post by Jaimie Vandenbergh
I can think of various pretty upbeat fantasy books in the last decade,
but not much in SF. It tends towards the grimdark and meathook. Or
perhaps my purchasing habits do, in which case I'd like more cheer.
Anyone? Space opera if possible. Pref not YA, but I'll take it. All I
can think of -
Sea Wasps's Grand Central Arena books
Mitch Benn's _Terra_ and _Terra's World_
Bujold's Vorkosiverse, generally.
Erm...
That's it.
Cheers - Jaimie
Graydon Saunders - the Commonweal
*waggles hand* It's a bit of a post-apocalyptic scenario, though in a
rebuilding bucolic sort of state. They are great books though.
But upbeat in the sense that the Commonweal(s) survive while
surrounded by really awful stuff continually attacking it, by
grounding itself on democracy, a strong feeling that everybody
must do *something* to be useful, another strong feeling that you
must not brag about yourself,* and an underlying principle that
if, after a genuinely fair trial, you are demonstrated to be a
danger to your fellow people (several species thereof), the
Commonweal will reluctantly kill you.

_____
*which, on reflection, causes me to wonder how anybody ever
manages to run for public office. By acclamation, maybe? The MP
for the Creeks, in the second volume, is the kind of
representative we should all have representing us.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
larry
2018-02-24 23:30:27 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Jaimie Vandenbergh
Post by larry
Post by Jaimie Vandenbergh
I can think of various pretty upbeat fantasy books in the last decade,
but not much in SF. It tends towards the grimdark and meathook. Or
perhaps my purchasing habits do, in which case I'd like more cheer.
Anyone? Space opera if possible. Pref not YA, but I'll take it. All I
can think of -
Sea Wasps's Grand Central Arena books
Mitch Benn's _Terra_ and _Terra's World_
Bujold's Vorkosiverse, generally.
Erm...
That's it.
Cheers - Jaimie
Graydon Saunders - the Commonweal
*waggles hand* It's a bit of a post-apocalyptic scenario, though in a
rebuilding bucolic sort of state. They are great books though.
But upbeat in the sense that the Commonweal(s) survive while
surrounded by really awful stuff continually attacking it, by
grounding itself on democracy, a strong feeling that everybody
must do *something* to be useful, another strong feeling that you
must not brag about yourself,* and an underlying principle that
if, after a genuinely fair trial, you are demonstrated to be a
danger to your fellow people (several species thereof), the
Commonweal will reluctantly kill you.
_____
*which, on reflection, causes me to wonder how anybody ever
manages to run for public office. By acclamation, maybe? The MP
for the Creeks, in the second volume, is the kind of
representative we should all have representing us.
I think the Peace selects the Members of Parliament.
Probably not true of the local government, gerefan.
--
After investigation, believe that which you have yourselves
tested and found reasonable, and which is for your good
and that of others.
Gautama.
Bill Dugan
2018-02-24 17:02:39 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by larry
Post by Jaimie Vandenbergh
I can think of various pretty upbeat fantasy books in the last decade,
but not much in SF. It tends towards the grimdark and meathook. Or
perhaps my purchasing habits do, in which case I'd like more cheer.
Anyone? Space opera if possible. Pref not YA, but I'll take it. All I
can think of -
Sea Wasps's Grand Central Arena books
Mitch Benn's _Terra_ and _Terra's World_
Bujold's Vorkosiverse, generally.
Erm...
That's it.
Cheers - Jaimie
Graydon Saunders - the Commonweal
The Commonweal books are upbeat in the sense that sympathetic
protagonists end up winning, although sometimes at great cost.
However, the Commonweal is a small part of a world which is generally
pretty grimdark, it's in serious danger of being overwhelmed by
outside actors, and even inside the Commonweal there's a real risk of
encountering a relic of the Bad Old Days that will kill you or your
loved ones in an unpleasant way.
Post by larry
Leonard Richardson - Constellation Games
Nathan Lowell - the Share series
Loading...