Discussion:
will the real James Nicoll stand up ?
(too old to reply)
Lynn McGuire
2018-06-13 01:43:42 UTC
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Hi James,

Ok, which quote is correct ?

“The problem with defending the purity of the English language is that
English is about as pure as a cribhouse whore. We don’t just borrow
words; on occasion, English has pursued other languages down alleyways
to beat them unconscious and rifle their pockets for new vocabulary.”

https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/694108-the-problem-with-defending-the-purity-of-the-english-language

"english doesn't borrow from other languages. english follows other
languages down dark alleys, knocks them over and goes through their
pockets for loose grammar."
http://www.azquotes.com/author/49717-James_Nicoll

BTW, my second favorite of your quotes on the azquotes site is “Ben Bova
seems to work very hard at working in new discoveries into his Glum
Future but alas, his future is glum and not that well written.”. I
agree to the former but not the latter.

Thanks,
Lynn
Garrett Wollman
2018-06-13 01:58:00 UTC
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In article <pfpssj$o2m$***@dont-email.me>,
Lynn McGuire <***@gmail.com> wrote:

>https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/694108-the-problem-with-defending-the-purity-of-the-english-language

> http://www.azquotes.com/author/49717-James_Nicoll

The Wikiquote page, <https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/James_Nicoll>,
includes a citation to the precise original article.

-GAWollman

--
Garrett A. Wollman | "Act to avoid constraining the future; if you can,
***@bimajority.org| act to remove constraint from the future. This is
Opinions not shared by| a thing you can do, are able to do, to do together."
my employers. | - Graydon Saunders, _A Succession of Bad Days_ (2015)
James Nicoll
2018-06-13 03:48:19 UTC
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In article <pfpssj$o2m$***@dont-email.me>,
Lynn McGuire <***@gmail.com> wrote:
>Hi James,
>
>Ok, which quote is correct ?
>
>“The problem with defending the purity of the English language is that
>English is about as pure as a cribhouse whore. We don’t just borrow
>words; on occasion, English has pursued other languages down alleyways
>to beat them unconscious and rifle their pockets for new vocabulary.”
>
>https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/694108-the-problem-with-defending-the-purity-of-the-english-language
>
>"english doesn't borrow from other languages. english follows other
>languages down dark alleys, knocks them over and goes through their
>pockets for loose grammar."
> http://www.azquotes.com/author/49717-James_Nicoll
>
>BTW, my second favorite of your quotes on the azquotes site is “Ben Bova
>seems to work very hard at working in new discoveries into his Glum
>Future but alas, his future is glum and not that well written.”. I
>agree to the former but not the latter.

The first. The second is from a tshirt someone did.
--
My reviews can be found at http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/
My Dreamwidth at https://james-davis-nicoll.dreamwidth.org/
My patreon is at https://www.patreon.com/jamesdnicoll
Lynn McGuire
2018-06-13 17:36:54 UTC
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On 6/12/2018 10:48 PM, James Nicoll wrote:
> In article <pfpssj$o2m$***@dont-email.me>,
> Lynn McGuire <***@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Hi James,
>>
>> Ok, which quote is correct ?
>>
>> “The problem with defending the purity of the English language is that
>> English is about as pure as a cribhouse whore. We don’t just borrow
>> words; on occasion, English has pursued other languages down alleyways
>> to beat them unconscious and rifle their pockets for new vocabulary.”
>>
>> https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/694108-the-problem-with-defending-the-purity-of-the-english-language
>>
>> "english doesn't borrow from other languages. english follows other
>> languages down dark alleys, knocks them over and goes through their
>> pockets for loose grammar."
>> http://www.azquotes.com/author/49717-James_Nicoll
>>
>> BTW, my second favorite of your quotes on the azquotes site is “Ben Bova
>> seems to work very hard at working in new discoveries into his Glum
>> Future but alas, his future is glum and not that well written.”. I
>> agree to the former but not the latter.
>
> The first. The second is from a tshirt someone did.

Thanks !

Lynn
James Nicoll
2018-06-13 18:35:24 UTC
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In article <pfrknp$79l$***@dont-email.me>,
Lynn McGuire <***@gmail.com> wrote:
>On 6/12/2018 10:48 PM, James Nicoll wrote:
>> In article <pfpssj$o2m$***@dont-email.me>,
>> Lynn McGuire <***@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Hi James,
>>>
>>> Ok, which quote is correct ?
>>>
>>> “The problem with defending the purity of the English language is that
>>> English is about as pure as a cribhouse whore. We don’t just borrow
>>> words; on occasion, English has pursued other languages down alleyways
>>> to beat them unconscious and rifle their pockets for new vocabulary.”
>>>
>>>
>https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/694108-the-problem-with-defending-the-purity-of-the-english-language
>>>
>>> "english doesn't borrow from other languages. english follows other
>>> languages down dark alleys, knocks them over and goes through their
>>> pockets for loose grammar."
>>> http://www.azquotes.com/author/49717-James_Nicoll
>>>
>>> BTW, my second favorite of your quotes on the azquotes site is
>“Ben Bova
>>> seems to work very hard at working in new discoveries into his Glum
>>> Future but alas, his future is glum and not that well written.”. I
>>> agree to the former but not the latter.
>>
>> The first. The second is from a tshirt someone did.
>
>Thanks !
>
Interestingly, while the Red Chinese government (at least, one of its
minor educational functionaries) was kind enough to ask if they could
use the correct, attributed, version in an ESL text, David Weber just
appropriated the knock-off version for one of his books. I used to get
annoyed when people monetized my material without as much as a by your
leave but now I use it as a brown M&M.
--
My reviews can be found at http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/
My Dreamwidth at https://james-davis-nicoll.dreamwidth.org/
My patreon is at https://www.patreon.com/jamesdnicoll
Lynn McGuire
2018-06-13 18:51:59 UTC
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On 6/13/2018 1:35 PM, James Nicoll wrote:
> In article <pfrknp$79l$***@dont-email.me>,
> Lynn McGuire <***@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On 6/12/2018 10:48 PM, James Nicoll wrote:
>>> In article <pfpssj$o2m$***@dont-email.me>,
>>> Lynn McGuire <***@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Hi James,
>>>>
>>>> Ok, which quote is correct ?
>>>>
>>>> “The problem with defending the purity of the English language is that
>>>> English is about as pure as a cribhouse whore. We don’t just borrow
>>>> words; on occasion, English has pursued other languages down alleyways
>>>> to beat them unconscious and rifle their pockets for new vocabulary.”
>>>>
>>>>
>> https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/694108-the-problem-with-defending-the-purity-of-the-english-language
>>>>
>>>> "english doesn't borrow from other languages. english follows other
>>>> languages down dark alleys, knocks them over and goes through their
>>>> pockets for loose grammar."
>>>> http://www.azquotes.com/author/49717-James_Nicoll
>>>>
>>>> BTW, my second favorite of your quotes on the azquotes site is
>> “Ben Bova
>>>> seems to work very hard at working in new discoveries into his Glum
>>>> Future but alas, his future is glum and not that well written.”. I
>>>> agree to the former but not the latter.
>>>
>>> The first. The second is from a tshirt someone did.
>>
>> Thanks !
>>
> Interestingly, while the Red Chinese government (at least, one of its
> minor educational functionaries) was kind enough to ask if they could
> use the correct, attributed, version in an ESL text, David Weber just
> appropriated the knock-off version for one of his books. I used to get
> annoyed when people monetized my material without as much as a by your
> leave but now I use it as a brown M&M.

Ah, that sucks. My experience in mainland China is fairly different.
They and the Russians cracked the password security on my software and
now I have a thousand users there. One of them did pay though.

Missile p0rn forever ! (much better than pike and flintlock p0rn).

Lynn
Dorothy J Heydt
2018-06-13 18:56:20 UTC
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In article <pfro5c$7tp$***@reader1.panix.com>,
James Nicoll <***@panix.com> wrote:
>Interestingly, while the Red Chinese government (at least, one of its
>minor educational functionaries) was kind enough to ask if they could
>use the correct, attributed, version in an ESL text, David Weber just
>appropriated the knock-off version for one of his books. I used to get
>annoyed when people monetized my material without as much as a by your
>leave but now I use it as a brown M&M.

Okay, please define "brown M&M" in this context?

--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Leo Sgouros
2018-06-13 19:18:26 UTC
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On Wednesday, June 13, 2018 at 2:15:07 PM UTC-5, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
> In article <pfro5c$7tp$***@reader1.panix.com>,
> James Nicoll <***@panix.com> wrote:
> >Interestingly, while the Red Chinese government (at least, one of its
> >minor educational functionaries) was kind enough to ask if they could
> >use the correct, attributed, version in an ESL text, David Weber just
> >appropriated the knock-off version for one of his books. I used to get
> >annoyed when people monetized my material without as much as a by your
> >leave but now I use it as a brown M&M.
>
> Okay, please define "brown M&M" in this context?
>
> --
> Dorothy J. Heydt
> Vallejo, California
> djheydt at gmail dot com

Well, I recognize it a s Van Halen thing. But you didn't ask me :-)
James Nicoll
2018-06-13 19:44:05 UTC
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In article <***@kithrup.com>,
Dorothy J Heydt <***@kithrup.com> wrote:
>In article <pfro5c$7tp$***@reader1.panix.com>,
>James Nicoll <***@panix.com> wrote:
>>Interestingly, while the Red Chinese government (at least, one of its
>>minor educational functionaries) was kind enough to ask if they could
>>use the correct, attributed, version in an ESL text, David Weber just
>>appropriated the knock-off version for one of his books. I used to get
>>annoyed when people monetized my material without as much as a by your
>>leave but now I use it as a brown M&M.
>
>Okay, please define "brown M&M" in this context?

To quote snopes:

"Van Halen's standard performance contract contained a provision calling
for them to be provided backstage with a bowl of M&Ms from which all the
brown candies has been removed."

The clause is buried in the middle of the technical specifications of
the show. If there are brown M&Ms, that means the contract was not
actually conformed to, which means the stage may not meet the act's
demanding technical needs.

If I see someone using the t-shirt quote in their book, that tells me
something about them. Same if I see them using the inspirational poster
where it's attributed to Pratchett.
--
My reviews can be found at http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/
My Dreamwidth at https://james-davis-nicoll.dreamwidth.org/
My patreon is at https://www.patreon.com/jamesdnicoll
Lawrence Watt-Evans
2018-06-13 20:32:23 UTC
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On Wed, 13 Jun 2018 19:44:05 +0000 (UTC), ***@panix.com (James
Nicoll) wrote:

>In article <***@kithrup.com>,
>Dorothy J Heydt <***@kithrup.com> wrote:
>>In article <pfro5c$7tp$***@reader1.panix.com>,
>>James Nicoll <***@panix.com> wrote:
>>>Interestingly, while the Red Chinese government (at least, one of its
>>>minor educational functionaries) was kind enough to ask if they could
>>>use the correct, attributed, version in an ESL text, David Weber just
>>>appropriated the knock-off version for one of his books. I used to get
>>>annoyed when people monetized my material without as much as a by your
>>>leave but now I use it as a brown M&M.
>>
>>Okay, please define "brown M&M" in this context?
>
>To quote snopes:
>
>"Van Halen's standard performance contract contained a provision calling
>for them to be provided backstage with a bowl of M&Ms from which all the
>brown candies has been removed."
>
>The clause is buried in the middle of the technical specifications of
>the show. If there are brown M&Ms, that means the contract was not
>actually conformed to, which means the stage may not meet the act's
>demanding technical needs.

Specifically, it may not be SAFE, for them or the audience; they use a
lot of current and produce very high volumes of sound and prefer to
not be deafened or electrocuted, or to have their equipment damaged by
improper voltages or sonic shock.

>If I see someone using the t-shirt quote in their book, that tells me
>something about them. Same if I see them using the inspirational poster
>where it's attributed to Pratchett.

I hadn't seen the Pratchett version, but it doesn't surprise me.



--
My webpage is at http://www.watt-evans.com
My latest novel is Stone Unturned: A Legend of Ethshar.
See http://www.ethshar.com/StoneUnturned.shtml
David DeLaney
2018-06-18 07:59:34 UTC
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On 2018-06-13, Lawrence Watt-Evans <***@gmail.com> wrote:
> ***@panix.com (James Nicoll) wrote:
>>If I see someone using the t-shirt quote in their book, that tells me
>>something about them. Same if I see them using the inspirational poster
>>where it's attributed to Pratchett.
>
> I hadn't seen the Pratchett version, but it doesn't surprise me.

I'm pretty much assuming that in a couple of centuries it'll end up either
from Shakespeare or from John Lennon.

Dave, especially if the Legion of Superheroes is involved
--
\/David DeLaney posting thru EarthLink - "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
my gatekeeper archives are no longer accessible :( / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.
t***@gmail.com
2018-06-18 11:34:18 UTC
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On Monday, June 18, 2018 at 3:59:40 AM UTC-4, David DeLaney wrote:
> On 2018-06-13, Lawrence Watt-Evans <***@gmail.com> wrote:
> > ***@panix.com (James Nicoll) wrote:
> >>If I see someone using the t-shirt quote in their book, that tells me
> >>something about them. Same if I see them using the inspirational poster
> >>where it's attributed to Pratchett.
> >
> > I hadn't seen the Pratchett version, but it doesn't surprise me.
>
> I'm pretty much assuming that in a couple of centuries it'll end up either
> from Shakespeare or from John Lennon.
>
> Dave, especially if the Legion of Superheroes is involved
>

Heywaitaminute - doesn't it have to be Mark Twain or Booker T Washington?
- Tony, sadly still temporarily using google groups
Kevrob
2018-06-18 23:06:52 UTC
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On Monday, June 18, 2018 at 7:34:21 AM UTC-4, ***@gmail.com wrote:
> On Monday, June 18, 2018 at 3:59:40 AM UTC-4, David DeLaney wrote:
> > On 2018-06-13, Lawrence Watt-Evans <***@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > ***@panix.com (James Nicoll) wrote:
> > >>If I see someone using the t-shirt quote in their book, that tells me
> > >>something about them. Same if I see them using the inspirational poster
> > >>where it's attributed to Pratchett.
> > >
> > > I hadn't seen the Pratchett version, but it doesn't surprise me.
> >
> > I'm pretty much assuming that in a couple of centuries it'll end up either
> > from Shakespeare or from John Lennon.
> >
> > Dave, especially if the Legion of Superheroes is involved
> >
>
> Heywaitaminute - doesn't it have to be Mark Twain or Booker T Washington?
> - Tony, sadly still temporarily using google groups

That's Booker T Washington & the MGs. Book `em for your next
Klordny party, you won't regret it. They bring the frunt!

Kevin R
Robert Woodward
2018-06-14 05:53:32 UTC
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Raw Message
In article <pfrs65$mej$***@reader1.panix.com>,
***@panix.com (James Nicoll) wrote:

> In article <***@kithrup.com>,
> Dorothy J Heydt <***@kithrup.com> wrote:
> >In article <pfro5c$7tp$***@reader1.panix.com>,
> >James Nicoll <***@panix.com> wrote:
> >>Interestingly, while the Red Chinese government (at least, one of its
> >>minor educational functionaries) was kind enough to ask if they could
> >>use the correct, attributed, version in an ESL text, David Weber just
> >>appropriated the knock-off version for one of his books. I used to get
> >>annoyed when people monetized my material without as much as a by your
> >>leave but now I use it as a brown M&M.
> >
> >Okay, please define "brown M&M" in this context?
>
> To quote snopes:
>
> "Van Halen's standard performance contract contained a provision calling
> for them to be provided backstage with a bowl of M&Ms from which all the
> brown candies has been removed."
>
> The clause is buried in the middle of the technical specifications of
> the show. If there are brown M&Ms, that means the contract was not
> actually conformed to, which means the stage may not meet the act's
> demanding technical needs.
>
> If I see someone using the t-shirt quote in their book, that tells me
> something about them. Same if I see them using the inspirational poster
> where it's attributed to Pratchett.

I was curious on which Weber title you were referring to, so I searched.
What I found was a Weber sharecropping title where the t-shirt quote
appeared on a t-shirt.

--
"We have advanced to new and surprising levels of bafflement."
Imperial Auditor Miles Vorkosigan describes progress in _Komarr_.
‹-----------------------------------------------------
Robert Woodward ***@drizzle.com
Michael R N Dolbear
2018-06-14 22:21:59 UTC
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Raw Message
"James Nicoll" wrote in message news:pfro5c$7tp$***@reader1.panix.com...

In article <pfrknp$79l$***@dont-email.me>,
Lynn McGuire <***@gmail.com> wrote:
>On 6/12/2018 10:48 PM, James Nicoll wrote:
>> In article <pfpssj$o2m$***@dont-email.me>,
>> Lynn McGuire <***@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Hi James,
>>>
>>> Ok, which quote is correct ?
>>>
>>> “The problem with defending the purity of the English language is
>>> that
>>> English is about as pure as a cribhouse whore. We don’t just
>>> borrow
>>> words; on occasion, English has pursued other languages down alleyways
>>> to beat them unconscious and rifle their pockets for new
>>> vocabulary.”
>>>
>>>
>https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/694108-the-problem-with-defending-the-purity-of-the-english-language
>>>
>>> "english doesn't borrow from other languages. english follows other
>>> languages down dark alleys, knocks them over and goes through their
>>> pockets for loose grammar."
>>> http://www.azquotes.com/author/49717-James_Nicoll
>>>
>>> BTW, my second favorite of your quotes on the azquotes site is
>“Ben Bova
>>> seems to work very hard at working in new discoveries into his Glum
>>> Future but alas, his future is glum and not that well written.”.
>>> I
>>> agree to the former but not the latter.
>>
>> The first. The second is from a tshirt someone did.
>
>Thanks !

>Interestingly, while the Red Chinese government (at least, one of its
minor educational functionaries) was kind enough to ask if they could
use the correct, attributed, version in an ESL text, David Weber just
appropriated the knock-off version for one of his books. I used to get
annoyed when people monetized my material without as much as a by your
leave but now I use it as a brown M&M.

Are you claiming the second version as your copyright directly or as a
derivative work by someone else?


--
Mike D
James Nicoll
2018-06-15 00:44:43 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
In article <***@mid.individual.net>,
Michael R N Dolbear <***@physics.org> wrote:
>
>"James Nicoll" wrote in message news:pfro5c$7tp$***@reader1.panix.com...
>
>In article <pfrknp$79l$***@dont-email.me>,
>Lynn McGuire <***@gmail.com> wrote:
>>On 6/12/2018 10:48 PM, James Nicoll wrote:
>>> In article <pfpssj$o2m$***@dont-email.me>,
>>> Lynn McGuire <***@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Hi James,
>>>>
>>>> Ok, which quote is correct ?
>>>>
>>>> “The problem with defending the purity of the English
>language is
>>>> that
>>>> English is about as pure as a cribhouse whore. We
>don’t just
>>>> borrow
>>>> words; on occasion, English has pursued other languages down alleyways
>>>> to beat them unconscious and rifle their pockets for new
>>>> vocabulary.”
>>>>
>>>>
>>https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/694108-the-problem-with-defending-the-purity-of-the-english-language
>>>>
>>>> "english doesn't borrow from other languages. english follows other
>>>> languages down dark alleys, knocks them over and goes through their
>>>> pockets for loose grammar."
>>>> http://www.azquotes.com/author/49717-James_Nicoll
>>>>
>>>> BTW, my second favorite of your quotes on the azquotes site is
>>“Ben Bova
>>>> seems to work very hard at working in new discoveries into his Glum
>>>> Future but alas, his future is glum and not that well
>written.”.
>>>> I
>>>> agree to the former but not the latter.
>>>
>>> The first. The second is from a tshirt someone did.
>>
>>Thanks !
>
>>Interestingly, while the Red Chinese government (at least, one of its
>minor educational functionaries) was kind enough to ask if they could
>use the correct, attributed, version in an ESL text, David Weber just
>appropriated the knock-off version for one of his books. I used to get
>annoyed when people monetized my material without as much as a by your
>leave but now I use it as a brown M&M.
>
>Are you claiming the second version as your copyright directly or as a
>derivative work by someone else?

The t shirt was inspired by my quotation.
--
My reviews can be found at http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/
My Dreamwidth at https://james-davis-nicoll.dreamwidth.org/
My patreon is at https://www.patreon.com/jamesdnicoll
Greg Goss
2018-06-15 13:27:07 UTC
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Raw Message
***@panix.com (James Nicoll) wrote:

>I used to get
>annoyed when people monetized my material without as much as a by your
>leave but now I use it as a brown M&M.

I'm not familiar with the metaphor, but I enjoyed the "It's THAT kind
of a party, is it?" ad that they introduced 'em with.
--
We are geeks. Resistance is voltage over current.
David DeLaney
2018-06-18 07:56:55 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On 2018-06-13, Lynn McGuire <***@gmail.com> wrote:
> Ok, which quote is correct ?
>
> ???The problem with defending the purity of the English language is that
> English is about as pure as a cribhouse whore. We don???t just borrow
> words; on occasion, English has pursued other languages down alleyways
> to beat them unconscious and rifle their pockets for new vocabulary.???
>
[...]
>
> "english doesn't borrow from other languages. english follows other
> languages down dark alleys, knocks them over and goes through their
> pockets for loose grammar."
> http://www.azquotes.com/author/49717-James_Nicoll

Neither one, actually, but the former is far closer. The actual quote used, for
some reason, the word "riffle". Google thinks it was "on rec.arts.sf-lovers, 15
May 1990".

Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting thru EarthLink - "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
my gatekeeper archives are no longer accessible :( / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.
d***@gmail.com
2018-08-07 02:39:27 UTC
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Raw Message
On Tuesday, June 12, 2018 at 9:43:49 PM UTC-4, Lynn McGuire wrote:
> Hi James,
>
> Ok, which quote is correct ?
>
> “The problem with defending the purity of the English language is that
> English is about as pure as a cribhouse whore. We don’t just borrow
> words; on occasion, English has pursued other languages down alleyways
> to beat them unconscious and rifle their pockets for new vocabulary.”
>
> https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/694108-the-problem-with-defending-the-purity-of-the-english-language
>
> "english doesn't borrow from other languages. english follows other
> languages down dark alleys, knocks them over and goes through their
> pockets for loose grammar."
> http://www.azquotes.com/author/49717-James_Nicoll
>
<snip>
> Thanks,
> Lynn

I always enjoyed the above quote. It reminded me of another quote:

"There is no such thing as legitimate English. English is the product of attempts by Norman men-at-arms to make dates with Saxon barmaids, and is no more legitimate than any of the other products." (quoted from memory, so possibly not perfectly accurate.)

(H. Beam Piper, from _The Other Human Race_, the 2nd Fuzzy novel).
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