"On the subject of slander" by John Ringo

[Lynn McGuire]

"On the subject of slander" by John Ringo

https://www.facebook.com/notes/john-ringo/on-the-subject-of-slander/10155634795822055/

Wow !

Lynn

[Dimensional Traveler]

Post by Lynn McGuire
"On the subject of slander" by John Ringo
https://www.facebook.com/notes/john-ringo/on-the-subject-of-slander/10155634795822055/
Wow !

"Stephen King is not a psychotic clown… (Wait, hold that thought…)"

LOL

[Ninapenda Jibini]

Post by Lynn McGuire
"On the subject of slander" by John Ringo
https://www.facebook.com/notes/john-ringo/on-the-subject-of-sland
er/10155634795822055/
Wow !

He needs to be careful of he'll be covered in Steisand Effect.

[Dorothy J Heydt]

Post by Ninapenda Jibini

Post by Lynn McGuire
"On the subject of slander" by John Ringo
https://www.facebook.com/notes/john-ringo/on-the-subject-of-sland
er/10155634795822055/
Wow !

He needs to be careful of he'll be covered in Steisand Effect.

I know nothing about John Ringo except that he had the audacity
to edit Randall Garrett's Lord Darcy stories.

Granted that this does not bias me in his favor; still, a lot of
people on this planet are not sex monsters and he's probably not
either.

I wonder, however, why he chose to reply at such length, rather
than simply saying "Nonsense."

[h***@gmail.com]

Post by Dorothy J Heydt
I know nothing about John Ringo except that he had the audacity
to edit Randall Garrett's Lord Darcy stories.

I believe that was Eric Flint.

[Ninapenda Jibini]

On Wednesday, June 20, 2018 at 3:15:04 PM UTC+10, Dorothy J

Post by Dorothy J Heydt
I know nothing about John Ringo except that he had the audacity
to edit Randall Garrett's Lord Darcy stories.

I believe that was Eric Flint.

So does Amazon.

https://www.amazon.com/Lord-Darcy-Randall-Garrett/dp/0743435486

[Dorothy J Heydt]

Post by h***@gmail.com

Post by Dorothy J Heydt
I know nothing about John Ringo except that he had the audacity
to edit Randall Garrett's Lord Darcy stories.

I believe that was Eric Flint.

If that is the case, I apologize to both of them.

[Ninapenda Jibini]

Post by Dorothy J Heydt

Post by Ninapenda Jibini

Post by Lynn McGuire
"On the subject of slander" by John Ringo
https://www.facebook.com/notes/john-ringo/on-the-subject-of-sla
nd er/10155634795822055/
Wow !

He needs to be careful of he'll be covered in Steisand Effect.

I know nothing about John Ringo except that he had the audacity
to edit Randall Garrett's Lord Darcy stories.

He seems to do a lot of things for Baen other than just writing.

Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Granted that this does not bias me in his favor; still, a lot of
people on this planet are not sex monsters and he's probably not
either.

To the extent I care (which isn't much, since it's not my circus,
nor my monkeys), I'm far, far more inclined to take his word for
it than that he's worked up over. Given the current atmosphere in
the entire convention subculture, the accusations don't pass the
laugh test.

But the truth won't matter on the internet. If he acts like he's
protesting too much, those who want him to be guilty of something
will be that much more convinced that he is. (And there's peer
reviewed research that says that the most you refute bullshit,
especially when you provide objective evidence, the more convinced
those who believe it are that it's true.)

Post by Dorothy J Heydt
I wonder, however, why he chose to reply at such length, rather
than simply saying "Nonsense."

As he says in the post, he's pissed. And as described, he would
have a libel case (though he calls it slander). But actually
filing the lawsuit, he'll learn *all* about the Streisand Effect.
He'll end up doing far more damage to his reputation himself than
the accusations ever could, because he'll spread the word far and
wide. You and I would never have heard about it without his post.

[Quadibloc]

Post by Dorothy J Heydt
I know nothing about John Ringo except

I'm not inclined to criticize you for the one thing you thought you knew not
being so: I had no idea who edited the Lord Darcy stories recently.

Have you heard of David Weber? He is most famous for what is now a fairly
lengthy series of books of space opera that owe a considerable amount of their
inspiration to Horatio Hornblower - acknowledged by naming their protagonist
Honor Harrington.

Those books are Mil-Sf, and their chief attraction to some fans is their
detailed descriptions of space battles.

John Ringo has co-authored some books with David Weber, and also written some as
a guest author in spin-off books about his characters.

John Ringo specializes more in blood-and-guts in his own works, handled by the
same publisher.

Also, he is infamous for getting some things "out of his system" in a (probably,
but not perhaps obviously enough) somewhat tongue-in-cheek book about a very
capable soldier who rescues hostages from terrorists... and offends against as
many sacred cows of political correctness as he can while doing it.

At this point, you know enough about him to realize why some people may not like him.

John Savard

[Dorothy J Heydt]

Post by Quadibloc

Post by Dorothy J Heydt
I know nothing about John Ringo except

I'm not inclined to criticize you for the one thing you thought you knew not
being so: I had no idea who edited the Lord Darcy stories recently.
Have you heard of David Weber? He is most famous for what is now a fairly
lengthy series of books of space opera that owe a considerable amount of their
inspiration to Horatio Hornblower - acknowledged by naming their protagonist
Honor Harrington.

Yes, I read several of the early ones back in the day (that day
being, when we had more book money). Hal read them first, and
told me all the funny bits. So I read some of them myself, and
discovered, alas, that the funny bits could be compared to way
too few plums in an otherwise dry and near-endless cake composed
mostly of what my son calls spaceship porn.

But I have read ALL of Horatio Hornblower, who was a much better
writer.

Post by Quadibloc
Those books are Mil-Sf, and their chief attraction to some fans is their
detailed descriptions of space battles.

So I must assume.

Post by Quadibloc
John Ringo has co-authored some books with David Weber, and also written some as
a guest author in spin-off books about his characters.
John Ringo specializes more in blood-and-guts in his own works, handled by the
same publisher.
Also, he is infamous for getting some things "out of his system" in a (probably,
but not perhaps obviously enough) somewhat tongue-in-cheek book about a very
capable soldier who rescues hostages from terrorists... and offends against as
many sacred cows of political correctness as he can while doing it.
At this point, you know enough about him to realize why some people may not like him.

To the extent that one can legitimately dislike a person solely
on the basis of what someone else has just told one about his
work, yes.

[Quadibloc]

Post by Dorothy J Heydt

Post by Quadibloc
At this point, you know enough about him to realize why some people may not like him.

To the extent that one can legitimately dislike a person solely
on the basis of what someone else has just told one about his
work, yes.

I didn't ask you to dislike him yourself without any direct knowledge of him,
merely to understand why he is controversial.

John Savard

[Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha]

On Wednesday, June 20, 2018 at 10:30:07 AM UTC-6, Dorothy J

In article

Post by Quadibloc
At this point, you know enough about him to realize why some
people may not like him.

To the extent that one can legitimately dislike a person solely
on the basis of what someone else has just told one about his
work, yes.

I didn't ask you to dislike him yourself without any direct
knowledge of him, merely to understand why he is controversial.

Except that we have only your account as to why he is controversial.

And 99.9999% of the time, you're full of shit.
--
Terry Austin

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.

[Dimensional Traveler]

Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha

On Wednesday, June 20, 2018 at 10:30:07 AM UTC-6, Dorothy J

In article

Post by Quadibloc
At this point, you know enough about him to realize why some people may not like him.

To the extent that one can legitimately dislike a person solely
on the basis of what someone else has just told one about his
work, yes.

I didn't ask you to dislike him yourself without any direct
knowledge of him, merely to understand why he is controversial.

Except that we have only your account as to why he is controversial.
And 99.9999% of the time, you're full of shit.

Wait, there has been an instance when he _wasn't_ full of shit?

[Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha]

Post by Dimensional Traveler

Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha

On Wednesday, June 20, 2018 at 10:30:07 AM UTC-6, Dorothy J

In article

Post by Quadibloc
At this point, you know enough about him to realize why some
people may not like him.

To the extent that one can legitimately dislike a person
solely on the basis of what someone else has just told one
about his work, yes.

I didn't ask you to dislike him yourself without any direct
knowledge of him, merely to understand why he is
controversial.

Except that we have only your account as to why he is
controversial.
And 99.9999% of the time, you're full of shit.

Wait, there has been an instance when he _wasn't_ full of shit?

Stopped clock, etc.

And he *occasionally* does talk about actual science fiction, in
context, and isn't as full of shit as many others here.
--
Terry Austin

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.

[Richard Hershberger]

Post by Dorothy J Heydt
But I have read ALL of Horatio Hornblower, who was a much better
writer.

The Admiralty was repeatedly struck by the literary merits of his dispatches.

But seriously, I had pretty much the same reaction to the Honor Harrington books. I think I read the first two, responding to both with 'meh.' I probably wouldn't have tried the second were the series not so popular.

Richard R. Hershberger

[Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha]

On Wednesday, June 20, 2018 at 12:30:07 PM UTC-4, Dorothy J

Post by Dorothy J Heydt
But I have read ALL of Horatio Hornblower, who was a much
better writer.

The Admiralty was repeatedly struck by the literary merits of
his dispatches.
But seriously, I had pretty much the same reaction to the Honor
Harrington books. I think I read the first two, responding to
both with 'meh.' I probably wouldn't have tried the second were
the series not so popular.

The first couple of them were pretty good for what they are, which is
light space opera. But he got too popular too quickly, and it ceased
to be possible to edit him. By about book 4 or so, it was 400,000
word stream of consciousness info-dumps.

(I'm currently reading one of the Starfire books he wrote with Steve
White. I'd forgotten how bloated the info-dumps in those were, so
that tendency goes *way* back.)
--
Terry Austin

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.

[Dorothy J Heydt]

.....But he got too popular too quickly, and it ceased
to be possible to edit him.

Oh dear, that almost always spells trouble. That was (one of
the) problem with late Heinlein. He could write coarse graffiti
on the bathroom wall and somebody would publish it because his
*name* would sell it.

[Lynn McGuire]

Post by Dorothy J Heydt

.....But he got too popular too quickly, and it ceased
to be possible to edit him.

Oh dear, that almost always spells trouble. That was (one of
the) problem with late Heinlein. He could write coarse graffiti
on the bathroom wall and somebody would publish it because his
*name* would sell it.

Heinlein did do that.

Lynn

[Dorothy J Heydt]

Post by Lynn McGuire

Post by Dorothy J Heydt

.....But he got too popular too quickly, and it ceased
to be possible to edit him.

Oh dear, that almost always spells trouble. That was (one of
the) problem with late Heinlein. He could write coarse graffiti
on the bathroom wall and somebody would publish it because his
*name* would sell it.

Heinlein did do that.

Depending on your interpretation of what I just typed, yeah.

On graffiti on the bathroom wall: I took Alan Dundes's folklore
class once, and he spent a reasonable but not unreasonable amount
of time on bathroom-wall graffiti. How they were folklore within
the meaning of the definition, showing multiple record and
variation. That they were generally obscene and/or insulting was
just a characteristic of that kind of folklore.

What interested me is that I've been in an awful lot of public
bathrooms, of the female variety, and I virtually never saw any
of the kind of stuff Dundes described. What I saw on the walls
of women's bathrooms were sometimes political, sometimes feminist
(yes, the categories overlap a lot), and a large part asking for
help/advice on some topic, which would be answered at length. As
if the bathroom wall were a group Dear Abby. There was one long,
long thread on the subject of whether tampons caused toxic schock
and why; I won't give details in mixed company, but the thread
was about three feet long, everyone giving her separate opinion
(sometimes REPEATEDLY) and coming to no conclusion. In fact, it
was a lot like USENET. An interesting gender-based distinction,
and I wish I'd mentioned it to Dundes. (He died quite a while ago,
died as he had lived, in the midst of a discussion in a graduate
seminar.)

[Kevrob]

Post by Dorothy J Heydt

Post by Lynn McGuire

Post by Dorothy J Heydt

.....But he got too popular too quickly, and it ceased
to be possible to edit him.

Oh dear, that almost always spells trouble. That was (one of
the) problem with late Heinlein. He could write coarse graffiti
on the bathroom wall and somebody would publish it because his
*name* would sell it.

Heinlein did do that.

Depending on your interpretation of what I just typed, yeah.
On graffiti on the bathroom wall: I took Alan Dundes's folklore
class once, and he spent a reasonable but not unreasonable amount
of time on bathroom-wall graffiti. How they were folklore within
the meaning of the definition, showing multiple record and
variation. That they were generally obscene and/or insulting was
just a characteristic of that kind of folklore.
What interested me is that I've been in an awful lot of public
bathrooms, of the female variety, and I virtually never saw any
of the kind of stuff Dundes described. What I saw on the walls
of women's bathrooms were sometimes political, sometimes feminist
(yes, the categories overlap a lot), and a large part asking for
help/advice on some topic, which would be answered at length. As
if the bathroom wall were a group Dear Abby. There was one long,
long thread on the subject of whether tampons caused toxic schock
and why; I won't give details in mixed company, but the thread
was about three feet long, everyone giving her separate opinion
(sometimes REPEATEDLY) and coming to no conclusion. In fact, it
was a lot like USENET. An interesting gender-based distinction,
and I wish I'd mentioned it to Dundes. (He died quite a while ago,
died as he had lived, in the midst of a discussion in a graduate
seminar.)

Could it be that those who own public spaces were more intent
on keeping the distaff facilities clean and repainted, while
those set aside for the "gents" would sometimes make one consider
the severity of local laws against public urination?

Note: I am not suggesting women are "cleaner" in public
bathrooms. I have 5 sisters. I've heard stories.......

I had a summer job making bathroom stalls back in the 1970s.
The quest for surfaces that would not allow ink to set on them
was a holy grail for some of the company engineers. We made
both walls covered in Formica, and ones made of steel, and
graffiti-writers could always scratch their message into the surface,
when it resisted ink.

Kevin R

[Lynn McGuire]

Post by Kevrob

Post by Dorothy J Heydt

Post by Lynn McGuire

Post by Dorothy J Heydt

.....But he got too popular too quickly, and it ceased
to be possible to edit him.

Oh dear, that almost always spells trouble. That was (one of
the) problem with late Heinlein. He could write coarse graffiti
on the bathroom wall and somebody would publish it because his
*name* would sell it.

Heinlein did do that.

Depending on your interpretation of what I just typed, yeah.
On graffiti on the bathroom wall: I took Alan Dundes's folklore
class once, and he spent a reasonable but not unreasonable amount
of time on bathroom-wall graffiti. How they were folklore within
the meaning of the definition, showing multiple record and
variation. That they were generally obscene and/or insulting was
just a characteristic of that kind of folklore.
What interested me is that I've been in an awful lot of public
bathrooms, of the female variety, and I virtually never saw any
of the kind of stuff Dundes described. What I saw on the walls
of women's bathrooms were sometimes political, sometimes feminist
(yes, the categories overlap a lot), and a large part asking for
help/advice on some topic, which would be answered at length. As
if the bathroom wall were a group Dear Abby. There was one long,
long thread on the subject of whether tampons caused toxic schock
and why; I won't give details in mixed company, but the thread
was about three feet long, everyone giving her separate opinion
(sometimes REPEATEDLY) and coming to no conclusion. In fact, it
was a lot like USENET. An interesting gender-based distinction,
and I wish I'd mentioned it to Dundes. (He died quite a while ago,
died as he had lived, in the midst of a discussion in a graduate
seminar.)

Could it be that those who own public spaces were more intent
on keeping the distaff facilities clean and repainted, while
those set aside for the "gents" would sometimes make one consider
the severity of local laws against public urination?
Note: I am not suggesting women are "cleaner" in public
bathrooms. I have 5 sisters. I've heard stories.......
I had a summer job making bathroom stalls back in the 1970s.
The quest for surfaces that would not allow ink to set on them
was a holy grail for some of the company engineers. We made
both walls covered in Formica, and ones made of steel, and
graffiti-writers could always scratch their message into the surface,
when it resisted ink.
Kevin R

People have been defacing bathroom walls for many millennia.

Lynn

[Kevrob]

Post by Lynn McGuire
People have been defacing bathroom walls for many millennia.

Oh, yes. Graffiti was reportedly found in the baths when they
excavated Vesuvius, if I remember articles i read about it correctly.

Kevin R

[Kevrob]

Post by Lynn McGuire
People have been defacing bathroom walls for many millennia.

....when they excavated Vesuvius,

Meaning Pompeii & Herculaneum, of course.

Kevin R

[Dimensional Traveler]

Post by Kevrob

Post by Lynn McGuire
People have been defacing bathroom walls for many millennia.

....when they excavated Vesuvius,

Meaning Pompeii & Herculaneum, of course.

The Romans would not have surprised in Vulcan wrote graffiti.

[Dorothy J Heydt]

Post by Kevrob

Post by Lynn McGuire
People have been defacing bathroom walls for many millennia.

....when they excavated Vesuvius,

Meaning Pompeii & Herculaneum, of course.

Oh, gosh, imagine digging down into Vesuvius and finding grafitti
on its walls, presumably written by the sylphs or salamanders who
once dwelt there. There's got to be a story in that somewhere.

(I miss rec.arts.sf.composition, where this idea would have
spawned an interesting thread.)

[Lawrence Watt-Evans]

Post by Kevrob

Post by Lynn McGuire
People have been defacing bathroom walls for many millennia.

Oh, yes. Graffiti was reportedly found in the baths when they
excavated Vesuvius, if I remember articles i read about it correctly.

Oh, there was graffiti all over Pompeii! It was election season, for
one thing, so there were a lot of campaign slogans -- and sarcastic
replies from people supporting the opponent -- written on walls all
over the city.

There was graffiti boasting of sexual prowess, and scatalogical
graffiti (I remember one basically translated as, "I produced the
biggest shit of my life here!"), and romantic graffiti, and lots of
other sorts.

There's earlier surviving Roman graffiti, including in the catacombs
of Rome itself. The earliest known depiction of Jesus of Nazareth is
a graffito in the catacombs, from about twenty years before Vesuvius
went off -- it shows a man kneeling at the foot of a cross, and nailed
to the cross is a man with the head of an ass. It's captioned,
"Alexandrios worships his god." Can't remember whether the caption is
in Latin or Greek.

I'm trying to remember whether I've heard of graffiti over 2,100 years
old (not counting cave paintings), and drawing a blank. I'm sure it
existed.

[Dorothy J Heydt]

Post by Lawrence Watt-Evans

Post by Kevrob

Post by Lynn McGuire
People have been defacing bathroom walls for many millennia.

Oh, yes. Graffiti was reportedly found in the baths when they
excavated Vesuvius, if I remember articles i read about it correctly.

Oh, there was graffiti all over Pompeii! It was election season, for
one thing, so there were a lot of campaign slogans -- and sarcastic
replies from people supporting the opponent -- written on walls all
over the city.
There was graffiti boasting of sexual prowess, and scatalogical
graffiti (I remember one basically translated as, "I produced the
biggest shit of my life here!"), and romantic graffiti, and lots of
other sorts.
There's earlier surviving Roman graffiti, including in the catacombs
of Rome itself. The earliest known depiction of Jesus of Nazareth is
a graffito in the catacombs, from about twenty years before Vesuvius
went off -- it shows a man kneeling at the foot of a cross, and nailed
to the cross is a man with the head of an ass. It's captioned,
"Alexandrios worships his god." Can't remember whether the caption is
in Latin or Greek.

And underneath it is written, "Alexandros is faithful." I can't
remember in what language it is either, but the article I read
said it was misspelled. I read this LONG ago.

[J. Clarke]

Post by Dorothy J Heydt

Post by Lawrence Watt-Evans

Post by Kevrob

Post by Lynn McGuire
People have been defacing bathroom walls for many millennia.

Oh, yes. Graffiti was reportedly found in the baths when they
excavated Vesuvius, if I remember articles i read about it correctly.

Oh, there was graffiti all over Pompeii! It was election season, for
one thing, so there were a lot of campaign slogans -- and sarcastic
replies from people supporting the opponent -- written on walls all
over the city.
There was graffiti boasting of sexual prowess, and scatalogical
graffiti (I remember one basically translated as, "I produced the
biggest shit of my life here!"), and romantic graffiti, and lots of
other sorts.
There's earlier surviving Roman graffiti, including in the catacombs
of Rome itself. The earliest known depiction of Jesus of Nazareth is
a graffito in the catacombs, from about twenty years before Vesuvius
went off -- it shows a man kneeling at the foot of a cross, and nailed
to the cross is a man with the head of an ass. It's captioned,
"Alexandrios worships his god." Can't remember whether the caption is
in Latin or Greek.

And underneath it is written, "Alexandros is faithful." I can't
remember in what language it is either, but the article I read
said it was misspelled. I read this LONG ago.

There's a wikipedia entry:
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexamenos_graffito>

[Lawrence Watt-Evans]

On Sat, 23 Jun 2018 11:08:25 -0400, J. Clarke

Post by J. Clarke

Post by Dorothy J Heydt

Post by Lawrence Watt-Evans

Post by Kevrob

Post by Lynn McGuire
People have been defacing bathroom walls for many millennia.

Oh, yes. Graffiti was reportedly found in the baths when they
excavated Vesuvius, if I remember articles i read about it correctly.

Oh, there was graffiti all over Pompeii! It was election season, for
one thing, so there were a lot of campaign slogans -- and sarcastic
replies from people supporting the opponent -- written on walls all
over the city.
There was graffiti boasting of sexual prowess, and scatalogical
graffiti (I remember one basically translated as, "I produced the
biggest shit of my life here!"), and romantic graffiti, and lots of
other sorts.
There's earlier surviving Roman graffiti, including in the catacombs
of Rome itself. The earliest known depiction of Jesus of Nazareth is
a graffito in the catacombs, from about twenty years before Vesuvius
went off -- it shows a man kneeling at the foot of a cross, and nailed
to the cross is a man with the head of an ass. It's captioned,
"Alexandrios worships his god." Can't remember whether the caption is
in Latin or Greek.

And underneath it is written, "Alexandros is faithful." I can't
remember in what language it is either, but the article I read
said it was misspelled. I read this LONG ago.

<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexamenos_graffito>

Huh. My Early Christian Art professor placed it earlier than anyone
in the Wikipedia entry.

[Juho Julkunen]

Post by Lawrence Watt-Evans
I'm trying to remember whether I've heard of graffiti over 2,100 years
old (not counting cave paintings), and drawing a blank. I'm sure it
existed.

Egyptians drew on walls a lot, not all of it sanctioned by authorities.
There's a rather famous piece of Egyptian graffiti of erotic nature
from about 3500 ago.

[Greg Goss]

Post by Lawrence Watt-Evans
I'm trying to remember whether I've heard of graffiti over 2,100 years
old (not counting cave paintings), and drawing a blank. I'm sure it
existed.

There's a graffitti in one of the releiving spaces above the King's
chamber in Khufu's pyramid, basically bragging that this team of
builders is better than that team, or some such.

I've seen claims that this was a 19th century forgery, but that was
likely on a site trying to prove that traditional pyramidology is
bogus.

[Dimensional Traveler]

Post by Lynn McGuire

Post by Kevrob

Post by Dorothy J Heydt

Post by Lynn McGuire

.....But he got too popular too quickly, and it ceased
to be possible to edit him.

Oh dear, that almost always spells trouble.  That was (one of
the) problem with late Heinlein.  He could write coarse graffiti
on the bathroom wall and somebody would publish it because his
*name* would sell it.

Heinlein did do that.

Depending on your interpretation of what I just typed, yeah.
On graffiti on the bathroom wall: I took Alan Dundes's folklore
class once, and he spent a reasonable but not unreasonable amount
of time on bathroom-wall graffiti.  How they were folklore within
the meaning of the definition, showing multiple record and
variation.  That they were generally obscene and/or insulting was
just a characteristic of that kind of folklore.
What interested me is that I've been in an awful lot of public
bathrooms, of the female variety, and I virtually never saw any
of the kind of stuff Dundes described.  What I saw on the walls
of women's bathrooms were sometimes political, sometimes feminist
(yes, the categories overlap a lot), and a large part asking for
help/advice on some topic, which would be answered at length.  As
if the bathroom wall were a group Dear Abby.  There was one long,
long thread on the subject of whether tampons caused toxic schock
and why; I won't give details in mixed company, but the thread
was about three feet long, everyone giving her separate opinion
(sometimes REPEATEDLY) and coming to no conclusion.  In fact, it
was a lot like USENET.  An interesting gender-based distinction,
and I wish I'd mentioned it to Dundes.  (He died quite a while ago,
died as he had lived, in the midst of a discussion in a graduate
seminar.)

Could it be that those who own public spaces were more intent
on keeping the distaff facilities clean and repainted, while
those set aside for the "gents" would sometimes make one consider
the severity of local laws against public urination?
Note: I am not suggesting women are "cleaner" in public
bathrooms.  I have 5 sisters.  I've heard stories.......
I had a summer job making bathroom stalls back in the 1970s.
The quest for surfaces that would not allow ink to set on them
was a holy grail for some of the company engineers.  We made
both walls covered in Formica, and ones made of steel, and
graffiti-writers could always scratch their message into the surface,
when it resisted ink.
Kevin R

People have been defacing bathroom walls for many millennia.

Since before there were bathrooms, even!

[Robert Carnegie]

Post by Dimensional Traveler

Post by Lynn McGuire

Post by Kevrob

Post by Dorothy J Heydt

Post by Lynn McGuire

.....But he got too popular too quickly, and it ceased
to be possible to edit him.

Oh dear, that almost always spells trouble.  That was (one of
the) problem with late Heinlein.  He could write coarse graffiti
on the bathroom wall and somebody would publish it because his
*name* would sell it.

Heinlein did do that.

Depending on your interpretation of what I just typed, yeah.
On graffiti on the bathroom wall: I took Alan Dundes's folklore
class once, and he spent a reasonable but not unreasonable amount
of time on bathroom-wall graffiti.  How they were folklore within
the meaning of the definition, showing multiple record and
variation.  That they were generally obscene and/or insulting was
just a characteristic of that kind of folklore.
What interested me is that I've been in an awful lot of public
bathrooms, of the female variety, and I virtually never saw any
of the kind of stuff Dundes described.  What I saw on the walls
of women's bathrooms were sometimes political, sometimes feminist
(yes, the categories overlap a lot), and a large part asking for
help/advice on some topic, which would be answered at length.  As
if the bathroom wall were a group Dear Abby.  There was one long,
long thread on the subject of whether tampons caused toxic schock
and why; I won't give details in mixed company, but the thread
was about three feet long, everyone giving her separate opinion
(sometimes REPEATEDLY) and coming to no conclusion.  In fact, it
was a lot like USENET.  An interesting gender-based distinction,
and I wish I'd mentioned it to Dundes.  (He died quite a while ago,
died as he had lived, in the midst of a discussion in a graduate
seminar.)

Could it be that those who own public spaces were more intent
on keeping the distaff facilities clean and repainted, while
those set aside for the "gents" would sometimes make one consider
the severity of local laws against public urination?
Note: I am not suggesting women are "cleaner" in public
bathrooms.  I have 5 sisters.  I've heard stories.......
I had a summer job making bathroom stalls back in the 1970s.
The quest for surfaces that would not allow ink to set on them
was a holy grail for some of the company engineers.  We made
both walls covered in Formica, and ones made of steel, and
graffiti-writers could always scratch their message into the surface,
when it resisted ink.
Kevin R

People have been defacing bathroom walls for many millennia.

Since before there were bathrooms, even!

Or walls! No, wait.

[Dimensional Traveler]

Post by Robert Carnegie

Post by Dimensional Traveler

Post by Lynn McGuire

Post by Kevrob

Post by Dorothy J Heydt

Post by Lynn McGuire

.....But he got too popular too quickly, and it ceased
to be possible to edit him.

Oh dear, that almost always spells trouble.  That was (one of
the) problem with late Heinlein.  He could write coarse graffiti
on the bathroom wall and somebody would publish it because his
*name* would sell it.

Heinlein did do that.

Depending on your interpretation of what I just typed, yeah.
On graffiti on the bathroom wall: I took Alan Dundes's folklore
class once, and he spent a reasonable but not unreasonable amount
of time on bathroom-wall graffiti.  How they were folklore within
the meaning of the definition, showing multiple record and
variation.  That they were generally obscene and/or insulting was
just a characteristic of that kind of folklore.
What interested me is that I've been in an awful lot of public
bathrooms, of the female variety, and I virtually never saw any
of the kind of stuff Dundes described.  What I saw on the walls
of women's bathrooms were sometimes political, sometimes feminist
(yes, the categories overlap a lot), and a large part asking for
help/advice on some topic, which would be answered at length.  As
if the bathroom wall were a group Dear Abby.  There was one long,
long thread on the subject of whether tampons caused toxic schock
and why; I won't give details in mixed company, but the thread
was about three feet long, everyone giving her separate opinion
(sometimes REPEATEDLY) and coming to no conclusion.  In fact, it
was a lot like USENET.  An interesting gender-based distinction,
and I wish I'd mentioned it to Dundes.  (He died quite a while ago,
died as he had lived, in the midst of a discussion in a graduate
seminar.)

Could it be that those who own public spaces were more intent
on keeping the distaff facilities clean and repainted, while
those set aside for the "gents" would sometimes make one consider
the severity of local laws against public urination?
Note: I am not suggesting women are "cleaner" in public
bathrooms.  I have 5 sisters.  I've heard stories.......
I had a summer job making bathroom stalls back in the 1970s.
The quest for surfaces that would not allow ink to set on them
was a holy grail for some of the company engineers.  We made
both walls covered in Formica, and ones made of steel, and
graffiti-writers could always scratch their message into the surface,
when it resisted ink.
Kevin R

People have been defacing bathroom walls for many millennia.

Since before there were bathrooms, even!

Or walls! No, wait.

Depends, are we talking artificial, built, walls or natural walls of caves?

[Kevrob]

Post by Dimensional Traveler

Post by Robert Carnegie
Or walls! No, wait.

Depends, are we talking artificial, built, walls or natural walls of caves?

Whoever rented Lascaux didn't get their security deposit back!

Kevin R

[Dorothy J Heydt]

Post by Dimensional Traveler

Post by Lynn McGuire

Post by Kevrob

Post by Dorothy J Heydt

Post by Lynn McGuire

.....But he got too popular too quickly, and it ceased
to be possible to edit him.

Oh dear, that almost always spells trouble.  That was (one of
the) problem with late Heinlein.  He could write coarse graffiti
on the bathroom wall and somebody would publish it because his
*name* would sell it.

Heinlein did do that.

Depending on your interpretation of what I just typed, yeah.
On graffiti on the bathroom wall: I took Alan Dundes's folklore
class once, and he spent a reasonable but not unreasonable amount
of time on bathroom-wall graffiti.  How they were folklore within
the meaning of the definition, showing multiple record and
variation.  That they were generally obscene and/or insulting was
just a characteristic of that kind of folklore.
What interested me is that I've been in an awful lot of public
bathrooms, of the female variety, and I virtually never saw any
of the kind of stuff Dundes described.  What I saw on the walls
of women's bathrooms were sometimes political, sometimes feminist
(yes, the categories overlap a lot), and a large part asking for
help/advice on some topic, which would be answered at length.  As
if the bathroom wall were a group Dear Abby.  There was one long,
long thread on the subject of whether tampons caused toxic schock
and why; I won't give details in mixed company, but the thread
was about three feet long, everyone giving her separate opinion
(sometimes REPEATEDLY) and coming to no conclusion.  In fact, it
was a lot like USENET.  An interesting gender-based distinction,
and I wish I'd mentioned it to Dundes.  (He died quite a while ago,
died as he had lived, in the midst of a discussion in a graduate
seminar.)

Could it be that those who own public spaces were more intent
on keeping the distaff facilities clean and repainted, while
those set aside for the "gents" would sometimes make one consider
the severity of local laws against public urination?
Note: I am not suggesting women are "cleaner" in public
bathrooms.  I have 5 sisters.  I've heard stories.......
I had a summer job making bathroom stalls back in the 1970s.
The quest for surfaces that would not allow ink to set on them
was a holy grail for some of the company engineers.  We made
both walls covered in Formica, and ones made of steel, and
graffiti-writers could always scratch their message into the surface,
when it resisted ink.
Kevin R

People have been defacing bathroom walls for many millennia.

Since before there were bathrooms, even!

Yeah, if there happened to be anything available to deface. I'm
not sure how you would deface a bush.

[Dimensional Traveler]

Post by Dorothy J Heydt

Post by Dimensional Traveler

Post by Lynn McGuire

Post by Kevrob

Post by Dorothy J Heydt

Post by Lynn McGuire

.....But he got too popular too quickly, and it ceased
to be possible to edit him.

Oh dear, that almost always spells trouble.  That was (one of
the) problem with late Heinlein.  He could write coarse graffiti
on the bathroom wall and somebody would publish it because his
*name* would sell it.

Heinlein did do that.

Depending on your interpretation of what I just typed, yeah.
On graffiti on the bathroom wall: I took Alan Dundes's folklore
class once, and he spent a reasonable but not unreasonable amount
of time on bathroom-wall graffiti.  How they were folklore within
the meaning of the definition, showing multiple record and
variation.  That they were generally obscene and/or insulting was
just a characteristic of that kind of folklore.
What interested me is that I've been in an awful lot of public
bathrooms, of the female variety, and I virtually never saw any
of the kind of stuff Dundes described.  What I saw on the walls
of women's bathrooms were sometimes political, sometimes feminist
(yes, the categories overlap a lot), and a large part asking for
help/advice on some topic, which would be answered at length.  As
if the bathroom wall were a group Dear Abby.  There was one long,
long thread on the subject of whether tampons caused toxic schock
and why; I won't give details in mixed company, but the thread
was about three feet long, everyone giving her separate opinion
(sometimes REPEATEDLY) and coming to no conclusion.  In fact, it
was a lot like USENET.  An interesting gender-based distinction,
and I wish I'd mentioned it to Dundes.  (He died quite a while ago,
died as he had lived, in the midst of a discussion in a graduate
seminar.)

Could it be that those who own public spaces were more intent
on keeping the distaff facilities clean and repainted, while
those set aside for the "gents" would sometimes make one consider
the severity of local laws against public urination?
Note: I am not suggesting women are "cleaner" in public
bathrooms.  I have 5 sisters.  I've heard stories.......
I had a summer job making bathroom stalls back in the 1970s.
The quest for surfaces that would not allow ink to set on them
was a holy grail for some of the company engineers.  We made
both walls covered in Formica, and ones made of steel, and
graffiti-writers could always scratch their message into the surface,
when it resisted ink.
Kevin R

People have been defacing bathroom walls for many millennia.

Since before there were bathrooms, even!

Yeah, if there happened to be anything available to deface. I'm
not sure how you would deface a bush.

Humans are inventive in things like that, I'm sure they found a way.
(Assuming of course that simply using their leaves to clean certain
parts of the anatomy don't count.)

[Greg Goss]

Post by Dorothy J Heydt

Post by Dimensional Traveler

Post by Lynn McGuire
People have been defacing bathroom walls for many millennia.

Since before there were bathrooms, even!

Yeah, if there happened to be anything available to deface. I'm
not sure how you would deface a bush.

The disappointing book six of the "Clan of the Cave Bear" five book
series spends about a third of its content describing every outlined
handprint or thumbprint in a series of caves probably Lascaux. I see
a difference between graffitti art and simple tagging.

[Dorothy J Heydt]

... book six of the "Clan of the Cave Bear" five book series ...

Ouch.

[Dimensional Traveler]

... book six of the "Clan of the Cave Bear" five book series ...

Ouch.

IIRC there was a long gap between books 4 and 5 because of author health
issues (a stroke I seem to recall). The tone of the series changed a
bit at that point.

[Peter Trei]

Post by Dimensional Traveler

... book six of the "Clan of the Cave Bear" five book series ...

Ouch.

IIRC there was a long gap between books 4 and 5 because of author health
issues (a stroke I seem to recall). The tone of the series changed a
bit at that point.

I think I only read the first book. I’m told it moved towards being soft core erotica later on, which may or may not have been an improvement.

There was a funny, on target, and very unauthorized X-rated ‘Cherry Poptart’ takeoff on it called ‘Cave of the Bare Clan’.

Pt

[Dimensional Traveler]

Post by Peter Trei

Post by Dimensional Traveler

... book six of the "Clan of the Cave Bear" five book series ...

Ouch.

IIRC there was a long gap between books 4 and 5 because of author health
issues (a stroke I seem to recall). The tone of the series changed a
bit at that point.

I think I only read the first book. I’m told it moved towards being soft core erotica later on, which may or may not have been an improvement.

Fem porn but ya.

[Moriarty]

Post by Peter Trei

Post by Dimensional Traveler

... book six of the "Clan of the Cave Bear" five book series ...

Ouch.

IIRC there was a long gap between books 4 and 5 because of author health
issues (a stroke I seem to recall). The tone of the series changed a
bit at that point.

I think I only read the first book. I’m told it moved towards being soft core erotica later on

Sort of. There were more graphically described sex scenes in later volumes but IMHO they weren't frequent enough to get an 'erotica' tag. Not just sex scenes, but *bad* sex scenes where you read on in fascination to see whether or not Jonadalar would find Ayla's nodule, which he inexplicably kept losing.

Post by Peter Trei
, which may or may not have been an improvement.

Not. The first was easily the best of the bunch, at least of the four that I read.

-Moriarty

[Dorothy J Heydt]

Post by Dimensional Traveler

... book six of the "Clan of the Cave Bear" five book series ...

Ouch.

IIRC there was a long gap between books 4 and 5 because of author health
issues (a stroke I seem to recall). The tone of the series changed a
bit at that point.

I think I only read the first book. I’m told it moved towards being
soft core erotica later on, which may or may not have been an
improvement.

"Category romance" would be more like it. I got as far as volume
two, IIRC, during which the protagonist and her lover had some
sort of trivial misunderstanding and it kept them apart for THE
ENTIRE BOOK.

[Ninapenda Jibini]

In article

On Sunday, June 24, 2018 at 5:13:00 PM UTC-4, Dimensional

Post by Dimensional Traveler

... book six of the "Clan of the Cave Bear" five book
series ...

Ouch.

IIRC there was a long gap between books 4 and 5 because of
author health issues (a stroke I seem to recall). The tone of
the series changed a bit at that point.

I think I only read the first book. I’m told it moved towards
being soft core erotica later on, which may or may not have been
an improvement.

"Category romance" would be more like it. I got as far as
volume two, IIRC, during which the protagonist and her lover had
some sort of trivial misunderstanding and it kept them apart for
THE ENTIRE BOOK.

If it was typical of such hack writing, if it hadn't, there
wouldn't have *been* a book. At most, perhaps, a short story, and a
boring one at that.

[Dorothy J Heydt]

Post by Ninapenda Jibini

In article

On Sunday, June 24, 2018 at 5:13:00 PM UTC-4, Dimensional

Post by Dimensional Traveler

... book six of the "Clan of the Cave Bear" five book
series ...

Ouch.

IIRC there was a long gap between books 4 and 5 because of
author health issues (a stroke I seem to recall). The tone of
the series changed a bit at that point.

I think I only read the first book. I’m told it moved towards
being soft core erotica later on, which may or may not have been
an improvement.

"Category romance" would be more like it. I got as far as
volume two, IIRC, during which the protagonist and her lover had
some sort of trivial misunderstanding and it kept them apart for
THE ENTIRE BOOK.

If it was typical of such hack writing, if it hadn't, there
wouldn't have *been* a book. At most, perhaps, a short story, and a
boring one at that.

Category romance is as capable of turning into A Much Too Long
Volume as any other genre.

ObSF: Robert Jordan.

[Ninapenda Jibini]

Post by Dorothy J Heydt

Post by Ninapenda Jibini

In article

On Sunday, June 24, 2018 at 5:13:00 PM UTC-4, Dimensional

Post by Dimensional Traveler

... book six of the "Clan of the Cave Bear" five book
series ...

Ouch.

IIRC there was a long gap between books 4 and 5 because of
author health issues (a stroke I seem to recall). The tone
of the series changed a bit at that point.

I think I only read the first book. I’m told it moved
towards being soft core erotica later on, which may or may not
have been an improvement.

"Category romance" would be more like it. I got as far as
volume two, IIRC, during which the protagonist and her lover
had some sort of trivial misunderstanding and it kept them
apart for THE ENTIRE BOOK.

If it was typical of such hack writing, if it hadn't, there
wouldn't have *been* a book. At most, perhaps, a short story,
and a boring one at that.

Category romance is as capable of turning into A Much Too Long
Volume as any other genre.

Indeed. But not by having trivial misunderstandings *be* trivial.
Which is what I actually said.

[Greg Goss]

Post by Dorothy J Heydt

Post by Peter Trei

Post by Dimensional Traveler

... book six of the "Clan of the Cave Bear" five book series ...

Ouch.

IIRC there was a long gap between books 4 and 5 because of author health
issues (a stroke I seem to recall). The tone of the series changed a
bit at that point.

I think I only read the first book. I’m told it moved towards being
soft core erotica later on, which may or may not have been an
improvement.

"Category romance" would be more like it. I got as far as volume
two, IIRC, during which the protagonist and her lover had some
sort of trivial misunderstanding and it kept them apart for THE
ENTIRE BOOK.

Well, geography kept them apart for more than half of it.

[Moriarty]

Post by Greg Goss

Post by Dorothy J Heydt

Post by Peter Trei

Post by Dimensional Traveler

... book six of the "Clan of the Cave Bear" five book series ...

Ouch.

IIRC there was a long gap between books 4 and 5 because of author health
issues (a stroke I seem to recall). The tone of the series changed a
bit at that point.

I think I only read the first book. I’m told it moved towards being
soft core erotica later on, which may or may not have been an
improvement.

"Category romance" would be more like it. I got as far as volume
two, IIRC, during which the protagonist and her lover had some
sort of trivial misunderstanding and it kept them apart for THE
ENTIRE BOOK.

Well, geography kept them apart for more than half of it.

I think Dorothy meant book 3, that was the one where the idiotic misunderstanding led to our heroes being tragically kept apart for most of the book and the heroine nearly marrying someone else. Fortunately they figured it out and had bad caveman sex to make up, leaving the third party tragically jilted at the altar (ok, it was probably more of a rock).

As you say, in book 2 they didn't even meet up until about halfway through.

-Moriarty

[Dorothy J Heydt]

Post by Moriarty

Post by Greg Goss

Post by Dorothy J Heydt

Post by Dimensional Traveler

... book six of the "Clan of the Cave Bear" five book series ...

Ouch.

IIRC there was a long gap between books 4 and 5 because of author health
issues (a stroke I seem to recall). The tone of the series changed a
bit at that point.

I think I only read the first book. I’m told it moved towards being
soft core erotica later on, which may or may not have been an
improvement.

"Category romance" would be more like it. I got as far as volume
two, IIRC, during which the protagonist and her lover had some
sort of trivial misunderstanding and it kept them apart for THE
ENTIRE BOOK.

Well, geography kept them apart for more than half of it.

I think Dorothy meant book 3, that was the one where the idiotic
misunderstanding led to our heroes being tragically kept apart for most
of the book and the heroine nearly marrying someone else. Fortunately
they figured it out and had bad caveman sex to make up, leaving the
third party tragically jilted at the altar (ok, it was probably more of
a rock).
As you say, in book 2 they didn't even meet up until about halfway through.

Okay, I bet you're right and it was book 3. It's been a LONG
time and I would go to the gallows before reading it again.

What sticks with me, now more than anything else, is the
statemeent that _don_ is Cro-Magnon for "mother." It's
Indo-European (many, many millennia later) for "river."

[Quadibloc]

Post by Dorothy J Heydt
during which the protagonist and her lover had some
sort of trivial misunderstanding and it kept them apart for THE
ENTIRE BOOK.

I could see that happening in a Victorian comedy of manners. But in a book about
primitive cave people? One would think they would have a more direct approach to
life.

John Savard

[Dorothy J Heydt]

Post by Quadibloc

Post by Dorothy J Heydt
during which the protagonist and her lover had some
sort of trivial misunderstanding and it kept them apart for THE
ENTIRE BOOK.

I could see that happening in a Victorian comedy of manners. But in a book about
primitive cave people? One would think they would have a more direct approach to
life.

In life, they probably did. In the twentieth century, the author
was writing a category romance and had to figure out some way of
keeping hero and heroine (or H&H, as they say in the trade) apart
till Chapter Last. Misunderstandings that neither party dares to
speak about (because the misunderstanding would vanish like snow
in August) are frequently used.

I did read a romance once in which H&H were separated by the New
Madrid earthquake, when the river ran backwards, and the
misunderstanding consisted of each thinking the other was dead.
Unfortunately, the earthquake was over in the first chapter, and
the rest of it was deadly dull.

[Moriarty]

Post by Dorothy J Heydt

Post by Quadibloc

Post by Dorothy J Heydt
during which the protagonist and her lover had some
sort of trivial misunderstanding and it kept them apart for THE
ENTIRE BOOK.

I could see that happening in a Victorian comedy of manners. But in a book about
primitive cave people? One would think they would have a more direct approach to
life.

In life, they probably did. In the twentieth century, the author
was writing a category romance and had to figure out some way of
keeping hero and heroine (or H&H, as they say in the trade) apart
till Chapter Last. Misunderstandings that neither party dares to
speak about (because the misunderstanding would vanish like snow
in August) are frequently used.

Yeah but in this particular case ("The Mammoth Hunters" by Jean M Auel for those who came in late) the H&H are kept apart not only by them not taking five minutes to compare notes, but also by every single other person in tribe knowing precisely what was going on and NOT SAYING A THING! The whole wretched trainwreck was made worse by the author constantly describing the tribe as "forthright", "blunt" and other synonyms.

-Moriarty

[Moriarty]

Post by Moriarty

Post by Dorothy J Heydt

Post by Quadibloc

Post by Dorothy J Heydt
during which the protagonist and her lover had some
sort of trivial misunderstanding and it kept them apart for THE
ENTIRE BOOK.

I could see that happening in a Victorian comedy of manners. But in a book about
primitive cave people? One would think they would have a more direct approach to
life.

In life, they probably did. In the twentieth century, the author
was writing a category romance and had to figure out some way of
keeping hero and heroine (or H&H, as they say in the trade) apart
till Chapter Last. Misunderstandings that neither party dares to
speak about (because the misunderstanding would vanish like snow
in August) are frequently used.

Yeah but in this particular case ("The Mammoth Hunters" by Jean M Auel for those who came in late) the H&H are kept apart not only by them not taking five minutes to compare notes, but also by every single other person in tribe knowing precisely what was going on and NOT SAYING A THING! The whole wretched trainwreck was made worse by the author constantly describing the tribe as "forthright", "blunt" and other synonyms.

And for anyone who hasn't read the book and has no intention of doing so, I recommend you read Crystal Starr Light's review on goodreads:

https://www.goodreads.com/review/show/271283632?book_show_action=true&from_review_page=1

It's also recommended for those who HAVE read it. In fact, she has written a review of all six books in the series and they're all a hoot.

This is how her review describes the misunderstanding Dorothy and I are banging on about:

"But none of those elements really compare to the most horrible thing that nearly destroyed all the good things this book had going for it. What did the most destruction to the goodness of this book was one of the absolute stupidest, most inane, childish, disgusting, vapid, retarded Big Misunderstandings in the world of Big Misunderstandings.

I can live with the info-dumping (even if it is terribly boring, distracting to the "plot", and way above the knowledge of the characters). I can even enjoy the really bad sex scenes in a MST3K way (if you enjoy reading about Jondalar's "manhood" and Ayla's "petals", this is your book). But when an author resorts to having her characters act like lobotomized chimpanzees in order to drive a plot that should have been wrapped up in no more than a chapter and probably more like a paragraph...I draw the line!"

...

"You know what's even worse? (Yes, I did say "worse".) I *MAYBE* could understand this happening if they were in a vacuum. But there is a whole TRIBE of people around them. And you know what?

THEY DON'T FRAKKIN' BOTHER TO SAY ANYTHING TO THIS COUPLE!!

All these supposedly "open" and "blunt" Mamutoi in the previous book (and even earlier in this book) SUDDENLY really respect private thoughts and REFUSE TO CLARIFY A SITUATION THAT WOULD TAKE TWO SECONDS TO CLEAR UP!!"

-Moriarty

[Ted Nolan <tednolan>]

Post by Moriarty

Post by Moriarty

Post by Dorothy J Heydt

Post by Quadibloc

Post by Dorothy J Heydt
during which the protagonist and her lover had some
sort of trivial misunderstanding and it kept them apart for THE
ENTIRE BOOK.

I could see that happening in a Victorian comedy of manners. But in a book about
primitive cave people? One would think they would have a more direct approach to
life.

In life, they probably did. In the twentieth century, the author
was writing a category romance and had to figure out some way of
keeping hero and heroine (or H&H, as they say in the trade) apart
till Chapter Last. Misunderstandings that neither party dares to
speak about (because the misunderstanding would vanish like snow
in August) are frequently used.

Yeah but in this particular case ("The Mammoth Hunters" by Jean M Auel

for those who came in late) the H&H are kept apart not only by them not
taking five minutes to compare notes, but also by every single other
person in tribe knowing precisely what was going on and NOT SAYING A
THING! The whole wretched trainwreck was made worse by the author
constantly describing the tribe as "forthright", "blunt" and other
synonyms.
And for anyone who hasn't read the book and has no intention of doing
https://www.goodreads.com/review/show/271283632?book_show_action=true&from_review_page=1
It's also recommended for those who HAVE read it. In fact, she has
written a review of all six books in the series and they're all a hoot.
"But none of those elements really compare to the most horrible thing
that nearly destroyed all the good things this book had going for it.
What did the most destruction to the goodness of this book was one of
the absolute stupidest, most inane, childish, disgusting, vapid,
retarded Big Misunderstandings in the world of Big Misunderstandings.
I can live with the info-dumping (even if it is terribly boring,
distracting to the "plot", and way above the knowledge of the
characters). I can even enjoy the really bad sex scenes in a MST3K way
(if you enjoy reading about Jondalar's "manhood" and Ayla's "petals",
this is your book). But when an author resorts to having her characters
act like lobotomized chimpanzees in order to drive a plot that should
have been wrapped up in no more than a chapter and probably more like a
paragraph...I draw the line!"
...
"You know what's even worse? (Yes, I did say "worse".) I *MAYBE* could
understand this happening if they were in a vacuum. But there is a whole
TRIBE of people around them. And you know what?
THEY DON'T FRAKKIN' BOTHER TO SAY ANYTHING TO THIS COUPLE!!
All these supposedly "open" and "blunt" Mamutoi in the previous book
(and even earlier in this book) SUDDENLY really respect private thoughts
and REFUSE TO CLARIFY A SITUATION THAT WOULD TAKE TWO SECONDS TO CLEAR
UP!!"
-Moriarty

Maybe an update of the old Upton Sinclair quote:

"It is difficult to get a man to understand something,
when his salary depends upon his not understanding it!"

"It is diffult to get protagonists to understand something when
the plot depends upon their not understanding it."

[Dorothy J Heydt]

Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>

Post by Moriarty

Post by Moriarty

Post by Dorothy J Heydt

Post by Quadibloc

Post by Dorothy J Heydt
during which the protagonist and her lover had some
sort of trivial misunderstanding and it kept them apart for THE
ENTIRE BOOK.

I could see that happening in a Victorian comedy of manners. But in a book about
primitive cave people? One would think they would have a more direct approach to
life.

In life, they probably did. In the twentieth century, the author
was writing a category romance and had to figure out some way of
keeping hero and heroine (or H&H, as they say in the trade) apart
till Chapter Last. Misunderstandings that neither party dares to
speak about (because the misunderstanding would vanish like snow
in August) are frequently used.

Yeah but in this particular case ("The Mammoth Hunters" by Jean M Auel

for those who came in late) the H&H are kept apart not only by them not
taking five minutes to compare notes, but also by every single other
person in tribe knowing precisely what was going on and NOT SAYING A
THING! The whole wretched trainwreck was made worse by the author
constantly describing the tribe as "forthright", "blunt" and other
synonyms.
And for anyone who hasn't read the book and has no intention of doing
https://www.goodreads.com/review/show/271283632?book_show_action=true&from_review_page=1
It's also recommended for those who HAVE read it. In fact, she has
written a review of all six books in the series and they're all a hoot.
"But none of those elements really compare to the most horrible thing
that nearly destroyed all the good things this book had going for it.
What did the most destruction to the goodness of this book was one of
the absolute stupidest, most inane, childish, disgusting, vapid,
retarded Big Misunderstandings in the world of Big Misunderstandings.
I can live with the info-dumping (even if it is terribly boring,
distracting to the "plot", and way above the knowledge of the
characters). I can even enjoy the really bad sex scenes in a MST3K way
(if you enjoy reading about Jondalar's "manhood" and Ayla's "petals",
this is your book). But when an author resorts to having her characters
act like lobotomized chimpanzees in order to drive a plot that should
have been wrapped up in no more than a chapter and probably more like a
paragraph...I draw the line!"
...
"You know what's even worse? (Yes, I did say "worse".) I *MAYBE* could
understand this happening if they were in a vacuum. But there is a whole
TRIBE of people around them. And you know what?
THEY DON'T FRAKKIN' BOTHER TO SAY ANYTHING TO THIS COUPLE!!
All these supposedly "open" and "blunt" Mamutoi in the previous book
(and even earlier in this book) SUDDENLY really respect private thoughts
and REFUSE TO CLARIFY A SITUATION THAT WOULD TAKE TWO SECONDS TO CLEAR
UP!!"
-Moriarty

"It is difficult to get a man to understand something,
when his salary depends upon his not understanding it!"
"It is diffult to get protagonists to understand something when
the plot depends upon their not understanding it."

By George, he's got it.

[Dorothy J Heydt]

Post by Moriarty

Post by Moriarty

Post by Dorothy J Heydt

Post by Quadibloc

Post by Dorothy J Heydt
during which the protagonist and her lover had some
sort of trivial misunderstanding and it kept them apart for THE
ENTIRE BOOK.

I could see that happening in a Victorian comedy of manners. But in a book about
primitive cave people? One would think they would have a more direct approach to
life.

In life, they probably did. In the twentieth century, the author
was writing a category romance and had to figure out some way of
keeping hero and heroine (or H&H, as they say in the trade) apart
till Chapter Last. Misunderstandings that neither party dares to
speak about (because the misunderstanding would vanish like snow
in August) are frequently used.

Yeah but in this particular case ("The Mammoth Hunters" by Jean M Auel

for those who came in late) the H&H are kept apart not only by them not
taking five minutes to compare notes, but also by every single other
person in tribe knowing precisely what was going on and NOT SAYING A
THING! The whole wretched trainwreck was made worse by the author
constantly describing the tribe as "forthright", "blunt" and other
synonyms.
And for anyone who hasn't read the book and has no intention of doing
https://www.goodreads.com/review/show/271283632?book_show_action=true&from_review_page=1

Okay. Yeah. That about covers it.

Post by Moriarty
It's also recommended for those who HAVE read it. In fact, she has
written a review of all six books in the series and they're all a hoot.
"But none of those elements really compare to the most horrible thing
that nearly destroyed all the good things this book had going for it.
What did the most destruction to the goodness of this book was one of
the absolute stupidest, most inane, childish, disgusting, vapid,
retarded Big Misunderstandings in the world of Big Misunderstandings.
I can live with the info-dumping (even if it is terribly boring,
distracting to the "plot", and way above the knowledge of the
characters). I can even enjoy the really bad sex scenes in a MST3K way
(if you enjoy reading about Jondalar's "manhood" and Ayla's "petals",
this is your book). But when an author resorts to having her characters
act like lobotomized chimpanzees in order to drive a plot that should
have been wrapped up in no more than a chapter and probably more like a
paragraph...I draw the line!"
...
"You know what's even worse? (Yes, I did say "worse".) I *MAYBE* could
understand this happening if they were in a vacuum. But there is a whole
TRIBE of people around them. And you know what?
THEY DON'T FRAKKIN' BOTHER TO SAY ANYTHING TO THIS COUPLE!!
All these supposedly "open" and "blunt" Mamutoi in the previous book
(and even earlier in this book) SUDDENLY really respect private thoughts
and REFUSE TO CLARIFY A SITUATION THAT WOULD TAKE TWO SECONDS TO CLEAR
UP!!"

Ayup.

Category romance cubed.

[Dorothy J Heydt]

Post by Moriarty

Post by Dorothy J Heydt

Post by Quadibloc

Post by Dorothy J Heydt
during which the protagonist and her lover had some
sort of trivial misunderstanding and it kept them apart for THE
ENTIRE BOOK.

I could see that happening in a Victorian comedy of manners. But in a book about
primitive cave people? One would think they would have a more direct approach to
life.

In life, they probably did. In the twentieth century, the author
was writing a category romance and had to figure out some way of
keeping hero and heroine (or H&H, as they say in the trade) apart
till Chapter Last. Misunderstandings that neither party dares to
speak about (because the misunderstanding would vanish like snow
in August) are frequently used.

Yeah but in this particular case ("The Mammoth Hunters" by Jean M Auel
for those who came in late) the H&H are kept apart not only by them not
taking five minutes to compare notes, but also by every single other
person in tribe knowing precisely what was going on and NOT SAYING A
THING! The whole wretched trainwreck was made worse by the author
constantly describing the tribe as "forthright", "blunt" and other
synonyms.

Heh. Keep in mind, I recall very few details of that book.
However, it is not unlikely that the forthright tribesmen thought
H&H were entirely wrong for each other, and if only everybody
kept quiet, they'd eventually find somebody more suitable.

And they may have had something there.

In Real Life (tm) one frequently finds people (usually,
middle-aged to elderly women) who *know* what's good for the
young lovers, who are too young and foolish to realize it.
Sometimes they're right; sometimes they're wrong.

[Greg Goss]

Post by Dimensional Traveler

... book six of the "Clan of the Cave Bear" five book series ...

Ouch.

IIRC there was a long gap between books 4 and 5 because of author health
issues (a stroke I seem to recall). The tone of the series changed a
bit at that point.

I think I only read the first book. I’m told it moved towards being soft core erotica later on, which may or may not have been an improvement.

The second book had maybe five or six explicit sex scenes, which would
be, what, 2 to 5% of the book? I actually read the second book first,
then went back and read the first. I read the third in hardcover (I
hate hate hate heavy books, but wasn't willing to wait the extra
year.) and each of the other in the five-book set as they were
available. I didn't find book six till I was replacing the set in
epub.

There was a funny, on target, and very unauthorized X-rated ‘Cherry Poptart’ takeoff on it called ‘Cave of the Bare Clan’.
Pt

[Quadibloc]

... book six of the "Clan of the Cave Bear" five book series ...

Ouch.

Wasn't there a fourth and a fifth book of the Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy
trilogy?

So it's happened before.

John Savard

[Greg Goss]

Post by Quadibloc

... book six of the "Clan of the Cave Bear" five book series ...

Ouch.

Wasn't there a fourth and a fifth book of the Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy
trilogy?

They lampshaded it themselves. Something like "Book five of the
increasingly inaccurately named Hitchhiker's Guide Trilogy." on the
cover.

Post by Quadibloc
So it's happened before.
John Savard

[Robert Carnegie]

Post by Greg Goss

Post by Quadibloc

... book six of the "Clan of the Cave Bear" five book series ...

Ouch.

Wasn't there a fourth and a fifth book of the Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy
trilogy?

They lampshaded it themselves. Something like "Book five of the
increasingly inaccurately named Hitchhiker's Guide Trilogy." on the
cover.

Post by Quadibloc
So it's happened before.
John Savard

That was only a "trilogy" in the sense of being
three books, anyway. Until there were more.

I don't know if Douglas Adams was joking when, as I think
I was told, he said on BBC radio's "Book Club", that to
get the first book published they told him to just stop
wherever he was in the story. It was based on the radio
scripts of course, but jumbled up, I think.

The third book involves material that has also been
released as _Doctor Who and the Krikkitmen_, and an
interview with the AI computer that reminds me of another
"Doctor Who" story, "The Face of Evil".

[Ninapenda Jibini]

Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Yeah, if there happened to be anything available to deface. I'm
not sure how you would deface a bush.

You have to wipe your ass with *something*.

[William Hyde]

Post by Ninapenda Jibini

Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Yeah, if there happened to be anything available to deface. I'm
not sure how you would deface a bush.

You have to wipe your ass with *something*.

But you must - and I can't stress this enough - use a bush that is not on fire. Especially if it is talking to you.


William Hyde

[Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha]

On Sunday, June 24, 2018 at 8:48:59 PM UTC-4, Ninapenda Jibini

Post by Ninapenda Jibini

Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Yeah, if there happened to be anything available to deface.
I'm not sure how you would deface a bush.

You have to wipe your ass with *something*.

But you must - and I can't stress this enough - use a bush that
is not on fire. Especially if it is talking to you.

For more reasons than one, I should think. Though any one would be
sufficient.
--
Terry Austin

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.

[Dorothy J Heydt]

Post by William Hyde

Post by Ninapenda Jibini

Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Yeah, if there happened to be anything available to deface. I'm
not sure how you would deface a bush.

You have to wipe your ass with *something*.

But you must - and I can't stress this enough - use a bush that is not
on fire. Especially if it is talking to you.

If you're in that kind of environment, use sand.

ObSF: _Dune_.

[Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha]

In article

On Sunday, June 24, 2018 at 8:48:59 PM UTC-4, Ninapenda Jibini

Post by Ninapenda Jibini

Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Yeah, if there happened to be anything available to deface.
I'm not sure how you would deface a bush.

You have to wipe your ass with *something*.

But you must - and I can't stress this enough - use a bush that
is not on fire. Especially if it is talking to you.

If you're in that kind of environment, use sand.
ObSF: _Dune_.

I'd rather use the real world solution from desert dwellers, which to
use the left hand.

I've *had* sand in my nethers.
--
Terry Austin

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.

[Dorothy J Heydt]

Post by Lynn McGuire
People have been defacing bathroom walls for many millennia.

Oh, undoubtedly. And I have no information on when public
restrooms started being divided by biological gender. Nor do I
know whether anybody ever did a proper study of grafitti in men's
vs. women's restrooms. I can only speak to my own experience vs.
what I heard from Prof. Dundes.

[Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha]

On Friday, June 22, 2018 at 3:45:05 PM UTC-4, Dorothy J Heydt

Post by Dorothy J Heydt

Post by Lynn McGuire

Post by Dorothy J Heydt

.....But he got too popular too quickly, and it ceased
to be possible to edit him.

Oh dear, that almost always spells trouble. That was (one
of the) problem with late Heinlein. He could write coarse
graffiti on the bathroom wall and somebody would publish it
because his *name* would sell it.

Heinlein did do that.

Depending on your interpretation of what I just typed, yeah.
On graffiti on the bathroom wall: I took Alan Dundes's folklore
class once, and he spent a reasonable but not unreasonable
amount of time on bathroom-wall graffiti. How they were
folklore within the meaning of the definition, showing multiple
record and variation. That they were generally obscene and/or
insulting was just a characteristic of that kind of folklore.
What interested me is that I've been in an awful lot of public
bathrooms, of the female variety, and I virtually never saw any
of the kind of stuff Dundes described. What I saw on the walls
of women's bathrooms were sometimes political, sometimes
feminist (yes, the categories overlap a lot), and a large part
asking for help/advice on some topic, which would be answered
at length. As if the bathroom wall were a group Dear Abby.
There was one long, long thread on the subject of whether
tampons caused toxic schock and why; I won't give details in
mixed company, but the thread was about three feet long,
everyone giving her separate opinion (sometimes REPEATEDLY) and
coming to no conclusion. In fact, it was a lot like USENET.
An interesting gender-based distinction, and I wish I'd
mentioned it to Dundes. (He died quite a while ago, died as he
had lived, in the midst of a discussion in a graduate seminar.)

Could it be that those who own public spaces were more intent
on keeping the distaff facilities clean and repainted, while
those set aside for the "gents" would sometimes make one
consider the severity of local laws against public urination?
Note: I am not suggesting women are "cleaner" in public
bathrooms. I have 5 sisters. I've heard stories.......

I've worked in enough places with public restrooms to assure that
both genders are equally capable of shitting in the trash can
instead of the toilet.

Apparently, at a clothing store, one is grateful if they shit in
the *bathroom* at all, rather than a changing room. Or the middle
of an aisle.
--
Terry Austin

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.

[Kevrob]

Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
I've worked in enough places with public restrooms to assure that
both genders are equally capable of shitting in the trash can
instead of the toilet.
Apparently, at a clothing store, one is grateful if they shit in
the *bathroom* at all, rather than a changing room. Or the middle
of an aisle.

One bookstore customer I had to deal with had a young, perhaps
"developmentally disabled" child with her. The little darling
wandered out of Mama's eyeline, decided she needed to go potty,
and extruded digested organic matter on the bottom shelf of
a 6' stretch of technical books. The owner was livid, once
he heard about it. I thank whatever printer's devils may exist
that I was not tasked with inventorying the contaminated tomes
for insurance purposes.

Now, this was a child, and children may be forgiven much,
but Mother sure guessed wrong about whether this would be
one of Little Angel's "good days" for an outing!

Kevin R

[Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha]

On Friday, June 22, 2018 at 6:24:44 PM UTC-4, Jibini Kula

Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
I've worked in enough places with public restrooms to assure
that both genders are equally capable of shitting in the trash
can instead of the toilet.
Apparently, at a clothing store, one is grateful if they shit
in the *bathroom* at all, rather than a changing room. Or the
middle of an aisle.

One bookstore customer I had to deal with had a young, perhaps
"developmentally disabled" child with her. The little darling
wandered out of Mama's eyeline, decided she needed to go potty,
and extruded digested organic matter on the bottom shelf of
a 6' stretch of technical books. The owner was livid, once
he heard about it. I thank whatever printer's devils may exist
that I was not tasked with inventorying the contaminated tomes
for insurance purposes.
Now, this was a child, and children may be forgiven much,
but Mother sure guessed wrong about whether this would be
one of Little Angel's "good days" for an outing!

Did the little shit(er) draw pictures in it? Did Mummy take photos
with her phone so she could hang up the artwork on the refrigerator?
--
Terry Austin

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.

[Dorothy J Heydt]

Post by Kevrob

Post by Dorothy J Heydt

Post by Lynn McGuire

Post by Dorothy J Heydt

.....But he got too popular too quickly, and it ceased
to be possible to edit him.

Oh dear, that almost always spells trouble. That was (one of
the) problem with late Heinlein. He could write coarse graffiti
on the bathroom wall and somebody would publish it because his
*name* would sell it.

Heinlein did do that.

Depending on your interpretation of what I just typed, yeah.
On graffiti on the bathroom wall: I took Alan Dundes's folklore
class once, and he spent a reasonable but not unreasonable amount
of time on bathroom-wall graffiti. How they were folklore within
the meaning of the definition, showing multiple record and
variation. That they were generally obscene and/or insulting was
just a characteristic of that kind of folklore.
What interested me is that I've been in an awful lot of public
bathrooms, of the female variety, and I virtually never saw any
of the kind of stuff Dundes described. What I saw on the walls
of women's bathrooms were sometimes political, sometimes feminist
(yes, the categories overlap a lot), and a large part asking for
help/advice on some topic, which would be answered at length. As
if the bathroom wall were a group Dear Abby. There was one long,
long thread on the subject of whether tampons caused toxic schock
and why; I won't give details in mixed company, but the thread
was about three feet long, everyone giving her separate opinion
(sometimes REPEATEDLY) and coming to no conclusion. In fact, it
was a lot like USENET. An interesting gender-based distinction,
and I wish I'd mentioned it to Dundes. (He died quite a while ago,
died as he had lived, in the midst of a discussion in a graduate
seminar.)

Could it be that those who own public spaces were more intent
on keeping the distaff facilities clean and repainted, while
those set aside for the "gents" would sometimes make one consider
the severity of local laws against public urination?

I don't think allowing a three-foot-long thread on the side of a
bathroom stall to accumulate over a period of months indicates a
preferential desire to keep the ladies' rooms extra clean.

You have to remember, the only times I've ever been in a men's
room are when the local SCA branch holds an event in a Boy Scout
facility in El Cerrito. Quite aside from the fact that females
have to sit down for both functions, there have always been a
great number of ladies who want to get into somewhere private in
order to change clothes. So from time to time we'd get one of
the gentlemen to check the men's room out, report it to be
currently uninhabited, and let a few ladies inside to get dressed
while he chivalrously stood guard at the door. I don't recall ever
seeing *any* graffiti in either facility.

[Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha]

Post by Dorothy J Heydt

.....But he got too popular too quickly, and it ceased
to be possible to edit him.

Oh dear, that almost always spells trouble.

Most certainly.

Post by Dorothy J Heydt
That was (one of
the) problem with late Heinlein. He could write coarse graffiti
on the bathroom wall and somebody would publish it because his
*name* would sell it.

Also most certainly.

I'm told Weber has since gotten much better on the stream-of-
consiousness wordiness, but a) it wasn't *that* interesting to begin
with and b) fool me once, shame on you . . .
--
Terry Austin

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.

[Ted Nolan <tednolan>]

Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha

Post by Dorothy J Heydt

.....But he got too popular too quickly, and it ceased
to be possible to edit him.

Oh dear, that almost always spells trouble.

Most certainly.

Post by Dorothy J Heydt
That was (one of
the) problem with late Heinlein. He could write coarse graffiti
on the bathroom wall and somebody would publish it because his
*name* would sell it.

Also most certainly.
I'm told Weber has since gotten much better on the stream-of-
consiousness wordiness, but a) it wasn't *that* interesting to begin
with and b) fool me once, shame on you . . .

"gotten much better" is subject to multiple interpretations there.
If you mean it happens much more often and to greater length, then yes.

[Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha]

Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>

Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha

Post by Dorothy J Heydt

.....But he got too popular too quickly, and it ceased
to be possible to edit him.

Oh dear, that almost always spells trouble.

Most certainly.

Post by Dorothy J Heydt
That was (one of
the) problem with late Heinlein. He could write coarse
graffiti on the bathroom wall and somebody would publish it
because his *name* would sell it.

Also most certainly.
I'm told Weber has since gotten much better on the stream-of-
consiousness wordiness, but a) it wasn't *that* interesting to
begin with and b) fool me once, shame on you . . .

"gotten much better" is subject to multiple interpretations
there. If you mean it happens much more often and to greater
length, then yes.

I will cheerfully take your word for it, since it doesn't matter
who you interpret it, I'm still not going to read any mroe Honor
Harrington stuff.
--
Terry Austin

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.

[Quadibloc]

Post by Dorothy J Heydt
I wonder, however, why he chose to reply at such length,

When I read his reply, I think I can understand why.

It's one thing when someone chooses to insult him; he can ignore that. But
apparently that to which he was replying also managed to insult his *daughter*.

This shows the presence of old-school virtues that do him credit.

John Savard

[h***@gmail.com]

Post by Quadibloc

Post by Dorothy J Heydt
I wonder, however, why he chose to reply at such length,

When I read his reply, I think I can understand why.
It's one thing when someone chooses to insult him; he can ignore that. But
apparently that to which he was replying also managed to insult his *daughter*.

Displaying your level of reading comprehension yet again...

Post by Quadibloc
This shows the presence of old-school virtues that do him credit.

Meh.

[Quadibloc]

Post by h***@gmail.com
Displaying your level of reading comprehension yet again...

Ah. I skimmed over it too fast? So the young lady who kept a child she had out of
wedlock and wasn't his groupie wasn't his daughter either?

John Savard

[h***@gmail.com]

Post by Quadibloc

Post by h***@gmail.com
Displaying your level of reading comprehension yet again...

Ah. I skimmed over it too fast? So the young lady who kept a child she had out of
wedlock and wasn't his groupie wasn't his daughter either?

If that's what you think happened skimmed it is far to generous a term for what you've done with the article...

[Juho Julkunen]

Post by h***@gmail.com

Post by Quadibloc

Post by h***@gmail.com
Displaying your level of reading comprehension yet again...

Ah. I skimmed over it too fast? So the young lady who kept a child she had out of
wedlock and wasn't his groupie wasn't his daughter either?

If that's what you think happened skimmed it is far to generous a term for what you've done with the article...

On the subject of slander, Quadibloc just implied Ringo is in an
incestuous marriage with his daughter. Fitting for the thread, I
suppose.

[James Nicoll]

Post by Juho Julkunen
On the subject of slander, Quadibloc just implied Ringo is in an
incestuous marriage with his daughter. Fitting for the thread, I
suppose.

Libel, surely?

Just for the record, while it is both legal and apparently something
the relevent authorities get a lot of questions about for cousins to
marry in Canada, parents marrying their kids is right out, even out
in the Bountiful west.

[David DeLaney]

Post by James Nicoll

Post by Juho Julkunen
On the subject of slander, Quadibloc just implied Ringo is in an
incestuous marriage with his daughter. Fitting for the thread, I suppose.

Libel, surely?
Just for the record, while it is both legal and apparently something
the relevent authorities get a lot of questions about for cousins to
marry in Canada, parents marrying their kids is right out, even out
in the Bountiful west.

Given who posted the implication, I must inquire whether Cafilnoria law covers
the case where said child is actually a vat-girl?

Dave, leaving the implications of THAT dangling merrily

[Dorothy J Heydt]

Post by David DeLaney

Post by James Nicoll

Post by Juho Julkunen
On the subject of slander, Quadibloc just implied Ringo is in an
incestuous marriage with his daughter. Fitting for the thread, I suppose.

Libel, surely?
Just for the record, while it is both legal and apparently something
the relevent authorities get a lot of questions about for cousins to
marry in Canada, parents marrying their kids is right out, even out
in the Bountiful west.

Are we discussing the case of Woody Allen, who married his
ex-wife's adopted daughter, to the disgust of the entire rest of
the family?

Post by David DeLaney
Given who posted the implication, I must inquire whether Cafilnoria law covers
the case where said child is actually a vat-girl?
Dave, leaving the implications of THAT dangling merrily

Please note that there are not ANY vat-children yet. Not even in
California, (and I'm wondering whether your misspelling was a set
of typoes or deliberate).

Reminds me of a line in C. S. Lewis somewhere, quoting St. Thomas
Aquinas to the effect of "The question of whether fauns, dryads,
and melusines have souls can be tabled until we find out whether
there are any." And adding that the question was not entirely
moot in the early Middle Ages, since the Merovingian line was
supposedly descended from a melusine.

But since you ask, no, to the best of my knowledge there is no
California law covering the marriage of a person who had no
parents. I do not anticipate the matter coming up in the
Assembly any time soon, either.

[D B Davis]

Post by Dorothy J Heydt

Post by David DeLaney

Post by James Nicoll

Post by Juho Julkunen
On the subject of slander, Quadibloc just implied Ringo is in an
incestuous marriage with his daughter. Fitting for the thread, I suppose.

Libel, surely?
Just for the record, while it is both legal and apparently something
the relevent authorities get a lot of questions about for cousins to
marry in Canada, parents marrying their kids is right out, even out
in the Bountiful west.

Are we discussing the case of Woody Allen, who married his
ex-wife's adopted daughter, to the disgust of the entire rest of
the family?

Post by David DeLaney
Given who posted the implication, I must inquire whether Cafilnoria law covers
the case where said child is actually a vat-girl?
Dave, leaving the implications of THAT dangling merrily

Please note that there are not ANY vat-children yet. Not even in
California, (and I'm wondering whether your misspelling was a set
of typoes or deliberate).
Reminds me of a line in C. S. Lewis somewhere, quoting St. Thomas
Aquinas to the effect of "The question of whether fauns, dryads,
and melusines have souls can be tabled until we find out whether
there are any." And adding that the question was not entirely
moot in the early Middle Ages, since the Merovingian line was
supposedly descended from a melusine.
But since you ask, no, to the best of my knowledge there is no
California law covering the marriage of a person who had no
parents. I do not anticipate the matter coming up in the
Assembly any time soon, either.

Reincarnation is the premise of _Cloud Atlas_ (Mitchell). It calls its
vat girls "fabricants." They "graduate" after twelve stars of service.
Why twelve years? Are the vat girls physically worn out by then or
does their clientele crave virgin meat?
Implanted microchips are called "souls" in the Mitchell. "A Soul's
value is the Dollar therein." And "art imitates life:"

We Calculated How Much Your Soul Is Actually Worth
http://www.businessinsider.com/how-much-is-your-soul-worth-2013-9

✍

Thank you,

[J. Clarke]

On Thu, 21 Jun 2018 09:25:28 -0500, David DeLaney

Post by David DeLaney

Post by James Nicoll

Post by Juho Julkunen
On the subject of slander, Quadibloc just implied Ringo is in an
incestuous marriage with his daughter. Fitting for the thread, I suppose.

Libel, surely?
Just for the record, while it is both legal and apparently something
the relevent authorities get a lot of questions about for cousins to
marry in Canada, parents marrying their kids is right out, even out
in the Bountiful west.

Given who posted the implication, I must inquire whether Cafilnoria law covers
the case where said child is actually a vat-girl?
Dave, leaving the implications of THAT dangling merrily

This might come up in a future Jurassic Park movie (just saw the
current one, there is a vat-girl).

[Juho Julkunen]

Post by James Nicoll

Post by Juho Julkunen
On the subject of slander, Quadibloc just implied Ringo is in an
incestuous marriage with his daughter. Fitting for the thread, I
suppose.

Libel, surely?

According to my understanding of these things, yes, but I was echoing
the subject line. Who am I to question John Ringo on the matter.

[Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha]

In article

On Wednesday, June 20, 2018 at 5:26:11 PM UTC+10, Quadibloc

On Wednesday, June 20, 2018 at 12:54:45 AM UTC-6,

Post by h***@gmail.com
Displaying your level of reading comprehension yet again...

Ah. I skimmed over it too fast? So the young lady who kept a
child she had out of wedlock and wasn't his groupie wasn't
his daughter either?

If that's what you think happened skimmed it is far to generous
a term for what you've done with the article...

On the subject of slander, Quadibloc just implied Ringo is in an
incestuous marriage with his daughter. Fitting for the thread, I
suppose.

Libelous (same mistake Ringo made - slander is verbal, libel is
written).

Good luck convincing a jury that Quaddie is credible enough to damage
*anyone*' reputation. As Ringo notes, one has to prove damages to win
more than a token.
--
Terry Austin

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.

[Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha]

Post by Quadibloc

Post by Dorothy J Heydt
I wonder, however, why he chose to reply at such length,

When I read his reply, I think I can understand why.
It's one thing when someone chooses to insult him; he can ignore
that. But apparently that to which he was replying also managed
to insult his *daughter*.

Wife, O Illiterate Moron. The daughter in question is hers, and not
his. As explained very, very clearly in the post.

Post by Quadibloc
This shows the presence of old-school virtues that do him
credit.

Assuming his account is accurate (and there's no reason not to).

But he's still going to do his own reputation mroe damage than what
he's replying to, in all likelyhood.
--
Terry Austin

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.

[Dimensional Traveler]

Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha

Post by Quadibloc

Post by Dorothy J Heydt
I wonder, however, why he chose to reply at such length,

When I read his reply, I think I can understand why.
It's one thing when someone chooses to insult him; he can ignore
that. But apparently that to which he was replying also managed
to insult his *daughter*.

Wife, O Illiterate Moron. The daughter in question is hers, and not
his. As explained very, very clearly in the post.

Post by Quadibloc
This shows the presence of old-school virtues that do him
credit.

Assuming his account is accurate (and there's no reason not to).
But he's still going to do his own reputation mroe damage than what
he's replying to, in all likelyhood.

Ringo does kind of acknowledge that with his comment that the post might
cost him some book sales.

[Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha]

Post by Dimensional Traveler

Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha

On Tuesday, June 19, 2018 at 11:15:04 PM UTC-6, Dorothy J

Post by Dorothy J Heydt
I wonder, however, why he chose to reply at such length,

When I read his reply, I think I can understand why.
It's one thing when someone chooses to insult him; he can
ignore that. But apparently that to which he was replying also
managed to insult his *daughter*.

Wife, O Illiterate Moron. The daughter in question is hers, and
not his. As explained very, very clearly in the post.

This shows the presence of old-school virtues that do him
credit.

Assuming his account is accurate (and there's no reason not
to).
But he's still going to do his own reputation mroe damage than
what he's replying to, in all likelyhood.

Ringo does kind of acknowledge that with his comment that the
post might cost him some book sales.

I don't think he has any comprehension of who widespread the damage
will be, nor how long lasting.
--
Terry Austin

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.

[Dimensional Traveler]

Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha

Post by Dimensional Traveler

Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha

On Tuesday, June 19, 2018 at 11:15:04 PM UTC-6, Dorothy J

Post by Dorothy J Heydt
I wonder, however, why he chose to reply at such length,

When I read his reply, I think I can understand why.
It's one thing when someone chooses to insult him; he can
ignore that. But apparently that to which he was replying also
managed to insult his *daughter*.

Wife, O Illiterate Moron. The daughter in question is hers, and
not his. As explained very, very clearly in the post.

This shows the presence of old-school virtues that do him
credit.

Assuming his account is accurate (and there's no reason not
to).
But he's still going to do his own reputation mroe damage than
what he's replying to, in all likelyhood.

Ringo does kind of acknowledge that with his comment that the
post might cost him some book sales.

I don't think he has any comprehension of who widespread the damage
will be, nor how long lasting.

Few people ever do. It is extremely easy to underestimate the human
capacity for petty vendettas over nothing.

[Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha]

Post by Dimensional Traveler

Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha

Post by Dimensional Traveler

Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha

On Tuesday, June 19, 2018 at 11:15:04 PM UTC-6, Dorothy J

Post by Dorothy J Heydt
I wonder, however, why he chose to reply at such length,

When I read his reply, I think I can understand why.
It's one thing when someone chooses to insult him; he can
ignore that. But apparently that to which he was replying
also managed to insult his *daughter*.

Wife, O Illiterate Moron. The daughter in question is hers,
and not his. As explained very, very clearly in the post.

This shows the presence of old-school virtues that do him
credit.

Assuming his account is accurate (and there's no reason not
to).
But he's still going to do his own reputation mroe damage
than what he's replying to, in all likelyhood.

Ringo does kind of acknowledge that with his comment that the
post might cost him some book sales.

I don't think he has any comprehension of who widespread the
damage will be, nor how long lasting.

Few people ever do. It is extremely easy to underestimate the
human capacity for petty vendettas over nothing.

And even easier to completely miss even well known demonstrations
of stupid ideas, i.e., the Streisand Effect, no matter how many
there are.

I believe that, at the time he wrote and posted that, he was just
so pissed off he wasn't entirely rational. Hopefully, for his sake,
he'll come to his senses before he does something irreversible.
--
Terry Austin

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.

[h***@gmail.com]

Post by Dimensional Traveler

Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha

Post by Quadibloc

Post by Dorothy J Heydt
I wonder, however, why he chose to reply at such length,

When I read his reply, I think I can understand why.
It's one thing when someone chooses to insult him; he can ignore
that. But apparently that to which he was replying also managed
to insult his *daughter*.

Wife, O Illiterate Moron. The daughter in question is hers, and not
his. As explained very, very clearly in the post.

Post by Quadibloc
This shows the presence of old-school virtues that do him
credit.

Assuming his account is accurate (and there's no reason not to).
But he's still going to do his own reputation mroe damage than what
he's replying to, in all likelyhood.

Ringo does kind of acknowledge that with his comment that the post might
cost him some book sales.

I believe there he's referring to making people aware that he and his wife are vanilla rather than his response giving the claim more publicity which other people are referencing.

[D B Davis]

Post by Lynn McGuire
"On the subject of slander" by John Ringo
https://www.facebook.com/notes/john-ringo/on-the-subject-of-slander/10155634795822055/
Wow !

My current non-fictional read is _The Art of Dramatic Writing_ (Egri).
The book back's blurb promises that it applies equally well to the short
story, novel, and screenplay.
This excerpt from Ringo's op-ed reminds me of the Egri:

... MIRIAM AND I DO NOT
PRACTICE A BDSM LIFESTYLE. Furthermore, I HAVE NEVER BEEN IN A BDSM
RELATIONSHIP. Nor do I go to BDSM parties. Nor do I 'master'. Thus
there would have been no reason to 'entice underage girls' back to my
room for 'Ghost LAARP' since I don't wield a whip nor take one.
'But what about Ghooooost?!' both my fans and detractors wail. IT'S
CALLED RESEARCH. The character that wanted to be written was BDSM
borderline necro (inside term in scene.) I had to find out WHAT THAT
MEANT. So I did RESEARCH. One of my main sources was a former Harvard
professor of abnormal psychology who has written books and professional
papers on the subject. Thus all the stuff (both praised and derided)
about safety. Because it MATTERS when you're doing BDSM and it was
something my 'source' hammered in every call we had.

The acronyms BDSM and LAARP mean absolutely nothing to me (thank
God). The part about Ringo's research rings true in the Egri, which says
it like this:

According to science, a single thistle needs ten thousand
inches of root to support a thirty- or forty-inch stem. You
can guess how many thousands of facts a dramatist must unearth
to support a single character.

✍

Thank you,

[Peter Trei]

Post by D B Davis
The acronyms BDSM and LAARP mean absolutely nothing to me (thank
God). The part about Ringo's research rings true in the Egri, which says
According to science, a single thistle needs ten thousand
inches of root to support a thirty- or forty-inch stem. You
can guess how many thousands of facts a dramatist must unearth
to support a single character.

On BDSM I'll leave you in the dark, since you seem a sensitive soul.
LAARP is almost certainly not a reference to the Los Angeles Atmospheric
Reclamation Project, but rather a typo for 'LARP' - 'Lince Action Role Play'

Imagine a bunch of people playing D&D, but playing the characters themselves
instead of using minifigs. Sometimes done at cons, but more often by organized
groups who meetup for weekends at private estates and forests. Both my daughters
LARP, usually as NPCs (Player characters have more autonomy, but have to pay
for the privilege).

Most LARPs are aimed at adults, but non-prurient.

pt.

[Juho Julkunen]

Post by Peter Trei
LAARP is almost certainly not a reference to the Los Angeles Atmospheric
Reclamation Project, but rather a typo for 'LARP' - 'Lince Action Role Play'

And 'lince', of coarse, is a typo for 'live'.

[Dorothy J Heydt]

Post by Peter Trei
Imagine a bunch of people playing D&D, but playing the characters themselves
instead of using minifigs. Sometimes done at cons, but more often by organized
groups who meetup for weekends at private estates and forests. Both my daughters
LARP, usually as NPCs (Player characters have more autonomy, but have to pay
for the privilege).
Most LARPs are aimed at adults, but non-prurient.

DunDraCon hosts a number of LARPs, limited only by the amount of
space available for them. (The Committee has been searching for
years for a larger hotel than the one we've got; we'd prefer to
stay with the Mariott chain, which has been very good to us, and
it's got to be within the greater San Francisco Bay region. So
far, no luck.)

Here's a set of rules for making LARPS safe and fun, originally
devised by a LARP publisher and slightly revised for specific
DunDraCon purposes some years ago.

Post by Peter Trei
These are the basic rules from Mind's Eye Theatre regarding how
the players should behave towards one another. This particular
set are paraphrased from the Oblivion book published by White Wolf.
The Only Rules That Matter
1. It's only a game.
Even if everything goes into hell in a handbasket and your
character can never be played again, it's still only a game.
Don't take things too seriously, as it will spoil everyone's fun.
If the line between the player and the character starts to blur,
the players needs to step back a bit and take some time off. The
Storyteller and other players should constantly be on the watch
for this.
2. No touching.
No touching means no touching. None. Ever. There's simply too
much of a chance that someone will get excited in the heat of combat
or some other stressful situation and proceed to hurt themselves
or someone else, however accidentally. This rule also applies
to running, jumping,swinging on chandeliers through sheets of
plate glass and other overly energetic behaviours that can result
in injuring someone. The core of the game is imagination. If the
players can imagine themselves as someone who's been dead for 20
years, it's within their power to imagine running when you're
really walking.
3. No weapons.
This is a rule strongly enforced by convention security. Props
are a wonderful thing; however, real weapons or anything that even
looks like a real weapon (sword canes, peace-bonded claymores, rabid
trained attack gerbils, matte-black painted waterguns or sword-shaped
toothpicks from a martini) are forbidden. There are too many
paranoid people who will see a prop gun and mistake it for a real
one, or see a costume dagger and will start screaming for the police.
Plus there is the ever constant danger of 'someone could get hurt'.
Leave the real thing at home, no matter how much it fits the character.
If you bring it, it's inevitable that the one time you unsheathe it
to show it off, some idiot will come pelting around the corner and
neatly skewer himself on it.
4. No drugs or drinking.
Drugs and alcohol deter from the imagination the live action
thrives on.Why go through all the trouble of creating another
person to inhabit if the player will only wander out of the
persona in a haze? Also those impaired by drugs or alcohol
represent a danger to those others in the game, both in character
and out. Not to mention the legal issue.
5. Remember, not everyone is playing.
While freaking the mundanes is part of the fun, the game can be
unnerving to those just passing by in the hall on the way to their
own games. Players must be considerate of nonplayers in their
vicinity and allow access to anyone if the gameplay is in a public
area. Gameplay should not block access to anything from anyone.
Nor is it permissible to randomly grab a passerby as a 'midnight
snack' when all they wanted to do is go play another session of
Warhammer. Gameplay should not be so loud as to disturb those
around to the point of calling security. Explaining to a policeman
at 3 AM that a player wasn't really beating up anyone on the
lawn, he was just dragging the other's soul down to the Void, is
often an exercise in futility, no matter how tolerant the hotel is
to the convention.
A. The Pacific Room, which has recently been made available for
LARPS, is accessed through the restaurant. The rule about not
unduly freaking the mundanes goes double here, where people are
not only not playing, they are eating. Let the doors be shut
upon you before you let your plots and your characterizations
unfold.
B. The general DunDraCon rule against wearing masks, which you
can find on the back page of the program book, is bent slightly
for LARPs. You can wear masks, where appropriate, inside the
LARP room; when leaving the LARP room for any purpose, you must
doff your mask and your characterization as you pass through the
door.
Most of the LARPers will be aware of these rules, or a variation
thereof. The GMs should most definitely be aware and will be on
the lookout for instances when these rules are broken. However,
with a 20 to 50 person game running as far as the convetion grounds
will take them, there is always the possibility something will be
missed.

This is probably much more information about penguins
^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^HLARPS than most of us care to have. However,
you may note that, slightly modified, the rules apply to any
form of con-going.

[Lawrence Watt-Evans]

Post by D B Davis
The acronyms BDSM and LAARP mean absolutely nothing to me (thank
God).

"Bondage & discipline/sado-masochism" and "Live Action Adult Role
Play."

LAARP is relatively obscure and of recent origin, but I'm surprised
BDSM wasn't familiar to you.