Discussion:
Human ruled galaxy.
(too old to reply)
The Zygon
2018-03-05 04:38:34 UTC
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I once read a science fiction story of the last two human beings in the universe. The blew themselves up as well as a military force consisting of the other technologically advanced species of the galaxy which was hunting them.

It turns out that human beings had built and lost a galaxy spanning empire a number of times. Each time the other species had united against humanity a number of times, each time fighting to mutual destruction. But this time, when they rebelled they other species won and decided to eliminate humanity. There was a hint in the story that they had sometime before tried the half-measure of restricting humans to one system, but the humans had broken out and set about to reconquer the galaxy. Unfortunately, I cannot recall the author or story name.

While posting in another thread, I recaled how, in my youth, I used to love stories in which humans ruled the galaxy. Anyone recalls any good stories of this type?
D B Davis
2018-03-05 05:26:13 UTC
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The Zygon <***@gmail.com> wrote:
> I once read a science fiction story of the last two human beings in the
> universe. The blew themselves up as well as a military force consisting
> of the other technologically advanced species of the galaxy which was
> hunting them.
>
> It turns out that human beings had built and lost a galaxy spanning
> empire a number of times. Each time the other species had united against
> humanity a number of times, each time fighting to mutual destruction.
> But this time, when they rebelled they other species won and decided to
> eliminate humanity. There was a hint in the story that they had sometime
> before tried the half-measure of restricting humans to one system, but
> the humans had broken out and set about to reconquer the galaxy.
> Unfortunately, I cannot recall the author or story name.
>
> While posting in another thread, I recaled how, in my youth, I used
> to love stories in which humans ruled the galaxy. Anyone recalls any
> good stories of this type?

Asimov wrote a story that almost meets your criteria. Although the rest
of the galaxy desperately wants to speciecide humanity in "Hostess"
(Asimov) in the end its the humans who ultimately prevail.
Do humans have to rule the whole galaxy? Terrans rule a big chunk of
the galaxy in "We Who Stole the Dream" (Tiptree). Terrans and Taurans
rule /separate/ chunks of the the galaxy in _The Forever War_
(Haldeman). Terrans and Sirans rule /separate/ chunks of the galaxy in
_Wasp_ (Russell). Humans rule a chunk of the galaxy in _Who Goes Here_
(Shaw).

Thank you,

--
Don
James Nicoll
2018-03-05 15:04:26 UTC
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In article <***@crcomp.net>, D B Davis <***@crcomp.net> wrote:
>
>The Zygon <***@gmail.com> wrote:
>> I once read a science fiction story of the last two human beings in the
>> universe. The blew themselves up as well as a military force consisting
>> of the other technologically advanced species of the galaxy which was
>> hunting them.
>>
>> It turns out that human beings had built and lost a galaxy spanning
>> empire a number of times. Each time the other species had united against
>> humanity a number of times, each time fighting to mutual destruction.
>> But this time, when they rebelled they other species won and decided to
>> eliminate humanity. There was a hint in the story that they had sometime
>> before tried the half-measure of restricting humans to one system, but
>> the humans had broken out and set about to reconquer the galaxy.
>> Unfortunately, I cannot recall the author or story name.
>>
>> While posting in another thread, I recaled how, in my youth, I used
>> to love stories in which humans ruled the galaxy. Anyone recalls any
>> good stories of this type?
>
>Asimov wrote a story that almost meets your criteria. Although the rest
>of the galaxy desperately wants to speciecide humanity in "Hostess"
>(Asimov) in the end its the humans who ultimately prevail.
> Do humans have to rule the whole galaxy? Terrans rule a big chunk of
>the galaxy in "We Who Stole the Dream" (Tiptree). Terrans and Taurans
>rule /separate/ chunks of the the galaxy in _The Forever War_
>(Haldeman). Terrans and Sirans rule /separate/ chunks of the galaxy in
>_Wasp_ (Russell). Humans rule a chunk of the galaxy in _Who Goes Here_
>(Shaw).
>

My guess would be Ben Bova's 1966 "Stars, Won't You Hide Me?", collected in
FORWARD IN TIME. Although it could also be ROCKETS IN URSA MAJOR and INTO
DEEPEST SPACE by Hoyle.

--
My reviews can be found at http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/
My Dreamwidth at https://james-davis-nicoll.dreamwidth.org/
My patreon is at https://www.patreon.com/jamesdnicoll
Dorothy J Heydt
2018-03-05 14:31:51 UTC
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In article <da287717-da3f-4d29-adf5-***@googlegroups.com>,
The Zygon <***@gmail.com> wrote:
>I once read a science fiction story of the last two human beings in the
>universe. The blew themselves up as well as a military force consisting
>of the other technologically advanced species of the galaxy which was
>hunting them.
>
>It turns out that human beings had built and lost a galaxy spanning
>empire a number of times. Each time the other species had united
>against humanity a number of times, each time fighting to mutual
>destruction. But this time, when they rebelled they other species won
>and decided to eliminate humanity. There was a hint in the story that
>they had sometime before tried the half-measure of restricting humans to
>one system, but the humans had broken out and set about to reconquer the
>galaxy. Unfortunately, I cannot recall the author or story name.

There are several, but the best is Michael Shaara's "All The Way
Home." Here's the quoted line:

"Great were the Antha, so reads the One Book of history, greater
perhaps than any of the Galactic Peoples . . ."

The first humans exploring outside the Solar System are met by
aliens who explain that the Antha had conquered the galaxy, and
ruled it so cruelly that the other species had risen against
them and, they'd thought, wiped them out. Only to see them
recover and conquer again. This happened several times. The
aliens explain this, and then kill the human explorers as
painlessly as they can contrive. And then say to one another,
"Oh dear, they're doing it again."

>While posting in another thread, I recaled how, in my youth, I used to
>love stories in which humans ruled the galaxy. Anyone recalls any good
>stories of this type?

This has been answered downthread.

--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
D B Davis
2018-03-05 15:36:54 UTC
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Dorothy J Heydt <***@kithrup.com> wrote:
> In article <da287717-da3f-4d29-adf5-***@googlegroups.com>,
> The Zygon <***@gmail.com> wrote:

<snip>

>>While posting in another thread, I recaled how, in my youth, I used to
>>love stories in which humans ruled the galaxy. Anyone recalls any good
>>stories of this type?
>
> This has been answered downthread.
>

All of this alien talk in the group as of late made me question the
existence of humanity in sf stories. Does humanity actually appear in
Herbert's _Dune_ franchise or Asimov's _Foundation_ franchise? Or, are
the characters in those stories just anthromorphic aliens?
Early RAH seems on-the-level, so humanity no doubt appears in his
juveniles such as _Citizen of the Galaxy_. Other than that, if the word
"Terran" is absent from the story it seems prudent to treat the story as
yet another anthromorphic alien account.
My current read, the serialization of _World of Null-A_ (Van Vogt)
is nearly completed. If my interpretation is correct, it posits a galaxy
full of humans and humanoid null-As.

Thank you,

--
Don
Dorothy J Heydt
2018-03-05 16:15:48 UTC
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In article <***@crcomp.net>, D B Davis <***@crcomp.net> wrote:
>
>Dorothy J Heydt <***@kithrup.com> wrote:
>> In article <da287717-da3f-4d29-adf5-***@googlegroups.com>,
>> The Zygon <***@gmail.com> wrote:
>
><snip>
>
>>>While posting in another thread, I recaled how, in my youth, I used to
>>>love stories in which humans ruled the galaxy. Anyone recalls any good
>>>stories of this type?
>>
>> This has been answered downthread.
>>
>
>All of this alien talk in the group as of late made me question the
>existence of humanity in sf stories. Does humanity actually appear in
>Herbert's _Dune_ franchise or Asimov's _Foundation_ franchise? Or, are
>the characters in those stories just anthromorphic aliens?

Well, Asimov deliberately put his Galactic Empire in a Galaxy
inhabited only by humans. This was because John Campbell, who
published the stories one by one, had his prejudices. He
expanded his belief that Northern Europeans were the best of the
human race, to a fondness for stories in which humans were the
best of the life-forms in the universe. Not wishing to go with
that meme, Asimov wrote of a Galaxy in which there were nobody
*but* humans.

Campbell also published the original _Dune_, but I don't know
whether Herbert also deliberately chose to write only about
humans, or even whether his humans were really human. They
certainly acted like it.

> Early RAH seems on-the-level, so humanity no doubt appears in his
>juveniles such as _Citizen of the Galaxy_. Other than that, if the word
>"Terran" is absent from the story it seems prudent to treat the story as
>yet another anthromorphic alien account.

If you *want* to.


--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Dimensional Traveler
2018-03-06 02:31:40 UTC
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On 3/5/2018 8:15 AM, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
> In article <***@crcomp.net>, D B Davis <***@crcomp.net> wrote:
>>
>> Dorothy J Heydt <***@kithrup.com> wrote:
>>> In article <da287717-da3f-4d29-adf5-***@googlegroups.com>,
>>> The Zygon <***@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> <snip>
>>
>>>> While posting in another thread, I recaled how, in my youth, I used to
>>>> love stories in which humans ruled the galaxy. Anyone recalls any good
>>>> stories of this type?
>>>
>>> This has been answered downthread.
>>>
>>
>> All of this alien talk in the group as of late made me question the
>> existence of humanity in sf stories. Does humanity actually appear in
>> Herbert's _Dune_ franchise or Asimov's _Foundation_ franchise? Or, are
>> the characters in those stories just anthromorphic aliens?
>
> Well, Asimov deliberately put his Galactic Empire in a Galaxy
> inhabited only by humans. This was because John Campbell, who
> published the stories one by one, had his prejudices. He
> expanded his belief that Northern Europeans were the best of the
> human race, to a fondness for stories in which humans were the
> best of the life-forms in the universe. Not wishing to go with
> that meme, Asimov wrote of a Galaxy in which there were nobody
> *but* humans.
>
> Campbell also published the original _Dune_, but I don't know
> whether Herbert also deliberately chose to write only about
> humans, or even whether his humans were really human. They
> certainly acted like it.
>
Those are humans in 'Dune'. There is an official timeline that extends
back to Earth. The events in the timeline are described as viewed by
the people of Dune's time, with descriptions like "The Imperial House
moved from London to Washington after the first use of atomics in war"
but it leaves no doubt that the people in 'Dune' are at least the
descendants of Earth humans.

There was also a throwaway line in one of the later books where some
Bene Geserrit (sp?) is thinking to herself "If only the Ixians knew the
name of their planet came from the ancient symbol for the number 9".


--
Inquiring minds want to know while minds with a self-preservation
instinct are running screaming.
The Zygon
2018-03-06 06:45:49 UTC
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> >> <snip>
> >>
> >>>> While posting in another thread, I recaled how, in my youth, I used to
> >>>> love stories in which humans ruled the galaxy. Anyone recalls any good
> >>>> stories of this type?
> >>>
> >>> This has been answered downthread.
> >>>
> >>
> >> All of this alien talk in the group as of late made me question the
> >> existence of humanity in sf stories. Does humanity actually appear in
> >> Herbert's _Dune_ franchise or Asimov's _Foundation_ franchise? Or, are
> >> the characters in those stories just anthromorphic aliens?
> >
> > Well, Asimov deliberately put his Galactic Empire in a Galaxy
> > inhabited only by humans. This was because John Campbell, who
> > published the stories one by one, had his prejudices. He
> > expanded his belief that Northern Europeans were the best of the
> > human race, to a fondness for stories in which humans were the
> > best of the life-forms in the universe. Not wishing to go with
> > that meme, Asimov wrote of a Galaxy in which there were nobody
> > *but* humans.
> >
> > Campbell also published the original _Dune_, but I don't know
> > whether Herbert also deliberately chose to write only about
> > humans, or even whether his humans were really human. They
> > certainly acted like it.
> >
> Those are humans in 'Dune'. There is an official timeline that extends
> back to Earth. The events in the timeline are described as viewed by
> the people of Dune's time, with descriptions like "The Imperial House
> moved from London to Washington after the first use of atomics in war"
> but it leaves no doubt that the people in 'Dune' are at least the
> descendants of Earth humans.
>
> There was also a throwaway line in one of the later books where some
> Bene Geserrit (sp?) is thinking to herself "If only the Ixians knew the
> name of their planet came from the ancient symbol for the number 9".
>
>
> --
> Inquiring minds want to know while minds with a self-preservation
> instinct are running screaming.

They are descendants of humans. But some of them are _arguably_ not human.
larry
2018-03-26 04:37:07 UTC
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On 2018-03-06, The Zygon <***@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >> <snip>
>> >>
>> >>>> While posting in another thread, I recaled how, in my youth, I used to
>> >>>> love stories in which humans ruled the galaxy. Anyone recalls any good
>> >>>> stories of this type?
>> >>>
>> >>> This has been answered downthread.
>> >>>
>> >>
>> >> All of this alien talk in the group as of late made me question the
>> >> existence of humanity in sf stories. Does humanity actually appear in
>> >> Herbert's _Dune_ franchise or Asimov's _Foundation_ franchise? Or, are
>> >> the characters in those stories just anthromorphic aliens?
>> >
>> > Well, Asimov deliberately put his Galactic Empire in a Galaxy
>> > inhabited only by humans. This was because John Campbell, who
>> > published the stories one by one, had his prejudices. He
>> > expanded his belief that Northern Europeans were the best of the
>> > human race, to a fondness for stories in which humans were the
>> > best of the life-forms in the universe. Not wishing to go with
>> > that meme, Asimov wrote of a Galaxy in which there were nobody
>> > *but* humans.
>> >
>> > Campbell also published the original _Dune_, but I don't know
>> > whether Herbert also deliberately chose to write only about
>> > humans, or even whether his humans were really human. They
>> > certainly acted like it.
>> >
>> Those are humans in 'Dune'. There is an official timeline that extends
>> back to Earth. The events in the timeline are described as viewed by
>> the people of Dune's time, with descriptions like "The Imperial House
>> moved from London to Washington after the first use of atomics in war"
>> but it leaves no doubt that the people in 'Dune' are at least the
>> descendants of Earth humans.
>>
>> There was also a throwaway line in one of the later books where some
>> Bene Geserrit (sp?) is thinking to herself "If only the Ixians knew the
>> name of their planet came from the ancient symbol for the number 9".
>>
>>
>> --
>> Inquiring minds want to know while minds with a self-preservation
>> instinct are running screaming.
>
> They are descendants of humans. But some of them are _arguably_ not human.


Spice is a terrible mistress.

--
After investigation, believe that which you have yourselves
tested and found reasonable, and which is for your good
and that of others.
Gautama.
Johnny1A
2018-03-27 04:31:19 UTC
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On Sunday, March 25, 2018 at 11:37:09 PM UTC-5, larry wrote:
> On 2018-03-06, The Zygon <***@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> >> <snip>
> >> >>
> >> >>>> While posting in another thread, I recaled how, in my youth, I used to
> >> >>>> love stories in which humans ruled the galaxy. Anyone recalls any good
> >> >>>> stories of this type?
> >> >>>
> >> >>> This has been answered downthread.
> >> >>>
> >> >>
> >> >> All of this alien talk in the group as of late made me question the
> >> >> existence of humanity in sf stories. Does humanity actually appear in
> >> >> Herbert's _Dune_ franchise or Asimov's _Foundation_ franchise? Or, are
> >> >> the characters in those stories just anthromorphic aliens?
> >> >
> >> > Well, Asimov deliberately put his Galactic Empire in a Galaxy
> >> > inhabited only by humans. This was because John Campbell, who
> >> > published the stories one by one, had his prejudices. He
> >> > expanded his belief that Northern Europeans were the best of the
> >> > human race, to a fondness for stories in which humans were the
> >> > best of the life-forms in the universe. Not wishing to go with
> >> > that meme, Asimov wrote of a Galaxy in which there were nobody
> >> > *but* humans.
> >> >
> >> > Campbell also published the original _Dune_, but I don't know
> >> > whether Herbert also deliberately chose to write only about
> >> > humans, or even whether his humans were really human. They
> >> > certainly acted like it.
> >> >
> >> Those are humans in 'Dune'. There is an official timeline that extends
> >> back to Earth. The events in the timeline are described as viewed by
> >> the people of Dune's time, with descriptions like "The Imperial House
> >> moved from London to Washington after the first use of atomics in war"
> >> but it leaves no doubt that the people in 'Dune' are at least the
> >> descendants of Earth humans.
> >>
> >> There was also a throwaway line in one of the later books where some
> >> Bene Geserrit (sp?) is thinking to herself "If only the Ixians knew the
> >> name of their planet came from the ancient symbol for the number 9".
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >> Inquiring minds want to know while minds with a self-preservation
> >> instinct are running screaming.
> >
> > They are descendants of humans. But some of them are _arguably_ not human.
>
>
> Spice is a terrible mistress.
>

Indeed so. Paul Atreides himself called it a 'poison' in _Dune_. It's a poison that will quadruple your lifespan if you haved a steady supply of it, but kill you quickly if you try to stop using it, or have your supply cut off.

The prescience it can endow is also a terrible thing, in the old sense of the word. Look at the fate Paul Atreides met in trying to deal with it, and what Leto II had to go through, and put the human race through, to succeed in dealing with that same challenge.
The Zygon
2018-03-28 05:18:03 UTC
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On Tuesday, March 27, 2018 at 12:31:22 AM UTC-4, Johnny1A wrote:
> On Sunday, March 25, 2018 at 11:37:09 PM UTC-5, larry wrote:
> > On 2018-03-06, The Zygon <***@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >> >> <snip>
> > >> >>
> > >> >>>> While posting in another thread, I recaled how, in my youth, I used to
> > >> >>>> love stories in which humans ruled the galaxy. Anyone recalls any good
> > >> >>>> stories of this type?
> > >> >>>
> > >> >>> This has been answered downthread.
> > >> >>>
> > >> >>
> > >> >> All of this alien talk in the group as of late made me question the
> > >> >> existence of humanity in sf stories. Does humanity actually appear in
> > >> >> Herbert's _Dune_ franchise or Asimov's _Foundation_ franchise? Or, are
> > >> >> the characters in those stories just anthromorphic aliens?
> > >> >
> > >> > Well, Asimov deliberately put his Galactic Empire in a Galaxy
> > >> > inhabited only by humans. This was because John Campbell, who
> > >> > published the stories one by one, had his prejudices. He
> > >> > expanded his belief that Northern Europeans were the best of the
> > >> > human race, to a fondness for stories in which humans were the
> > >> > best of the life-forms in the universe. Not wishing to go with
> > >> > that meme, Asimov wrote of a Galaxy in which there were nobody
> > >> > *but* humans.
> > >> >
> > >> > Campbell also published the original _Dune_, but I don't know
> > >> > whether Herbert also deliberately chose to write only about
> > >> > humans, or even whether his humans were really human. They
> > >> > certainly acted like it.
> > >> >
> > >> Those are humans in 'Dune'. There is an official timeline that extends
> > >> back to Earth. The events in the timeline are described as viewed by
> > >> the people of Dune's time, with descriptions like "The Imperial House
> > >> moved from London to Washington after the first use of atomics in war"
> > >> but it leaves no doubt that the people in 'Dune' are at least the
> > >> descendants of Earth humans.
> > >>
> > >> There was also a throwaway line in one of the later books where some
> > >> Bene Geserrit (sp?) is thinking to herself "If only the Ixians knew the
> > >> name of their planet came from the ancient symbol for the number 9".
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> --
> > >> Inquiring minds want to know while minds with a self-preservation
> > >> instinct are running screaming.
> > >
> > > They are descendants of humans. But some of them are _arguably_ not human.
> >
> >
> > Spice is a terrible mistress.
> >
>
> Indeed so. Paul Atreides himself called it a 'poison' in _Dune_. It's a poison that will quadruple your lifespan if you haved a steady supply of it, but kill you quickly if you try to stop using it, or have your supply cut off.
>
> The prescience it can endow is also a terrible thing, in the old sense of the word. Look at the fate Paul Atreides met in trying to deal with it, and what Leto II had to go through, and put the human race through, to succeed in dealing with that same challenge.

Did they do what they did because the had the ability? Or because the _Atreides (sp?) morality_ forced them to address the awful fate they saw for humanity. One of the books also suggested that Paul could have done what Leto did, but could not bring himself to make so great a sacrifice.
Johnny1A
2018-03-31 03:55:41 UTC
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On Wednesday, March 28, 2018 at 12:18:06 AM UTC-5, The Zygon wrote:
> On Tuesday, March 27, 2018 at 12:31:22 AM UTC-4, Johnny1A wrote:
> > On Sunday, March 25, 2018 at 11:37:09 PM UTC-5, larry wrote:
> > > On 2018-03-06, The Zygon <***@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > >> >> <snip>
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >>>> While posting in another thread, I recaled how, in my youth, I used to
> > > >> >>>> love stories in which humans ruled the galaxy. Anyone recalls any good
> > > >> >>>> stories of this type?
> > > >> >>>
> > > >> >>> This has been answered downthread.
> > > >> >>>
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >> All of this alien talk in the group as of late made me question the
> > > >> >> existence of humanity in sf stories. Does humanity actually appear in
> > > >> >> Herbert's _Dune_ franchise or Asimov's _Foundation_ franchise? Or, are
> > > >> >> the characters in those stories just anthromorphic aliens?
> > > >> >
> > > >> > Well, Asimov deliberately put his Galactic Empire in a Galaxy
> > > >> > inhabited only by humans. This was because John Campbell, who
> > > >> > published the stories one by one, had his prejudices. He
> > > >> > expanded his belief that Northern Europeans were the best of the
> > > >> > human race, to a fondness for stories in which humans were the
> > > >> > best of the life-forms in the universe. Not wishing to go with
> > > >> > that meme, Asimov wrote of a Galaxy in which there were nobody
> > > >> > *but* humans.
> > > >> >
> > > >> > Campbell also published the original _Dune_, but I don't know
> > > >> > whether Herbert also deliberately chose to write only about
> > > >> > humans, or even whether his humans were really human. They
> > > >> > certainly acted like it.
> > > >> >
> > > >> Those are humans in 'Dune'. There is an official timeline that extends
> > > >> back to Earth. The events in the timeline are described as viewed by
> > > >> the people of Dune's time, with descriptions like "The Imperial House
> > > >> moved from London to Washington after the first use of atomics in war"
> > > >> but it leaves no doubt that the people in 'Dune' are at least the
> > > >> descendants of Earth humans.
> > > >>
> > > >> There was also a throwaway line in one of the later books where some
> > > >> Bene Geserrit (sp?) is thinking to herself "If only the Ixians knew the
> > > >> name of their planet came from the ancient symbol for the number 9".
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >> --
> > > >> Inquiring minds want to know while minds with a self-preservation
> > > >> instinct are running screaming.
> > > >
> > > > They are descendants of humans. But some of them are _arguably_ not human.
> > >
> > >
> > > Spice is a terrible mistress.
> > >
> >
> > Indeed so. Paul Atreides himself called it a 'poison' in _Dune_. It's a poison that will quadruple your lifespan if you haved a steady supply of it, but kill you quickly if you try to stop using it, or have your supply cut off.
> >
> > The prescience it can endow is also a terrible thing, in the old sense of the word. Look at the fate Paul Atreides met in trying to deal with it, and what Leto II had to go through, and put the human race through, to succeed in dealing with that same challenge.
>
> Did they do what they did because the had the ability? Or because the _Atreides (sp?) morality_ forced them to address the awful fate they saw for humanity. One of the books also suggested that Paul could have done what Leto did, but could not bring himself to make so great a sacrifice.

It's complicated. Paul saw the Golden Path, yes, but rejected it both because he found it personally repellent and morally horrific. He didn't want to go through what Leto II went through, and he didn't want to do that to the human race, either.

Instead, Paul tried to select the time line forward that was most peaceful, that looked 'best', in the conventional sense. He had tried, and failed, to prevent 'his' own Jihad, because the price of doing so had been too high for him (murder/suicide of his friends, his mother, and himself, more or less), but he hoped to break the endless Jihad cycle going back into prehistory.

(In Herbert's world, the periodic religious jihads and nomadic barbarian invasions that overwhelm civilization ever so often, all the way back to the stone age, are actually a _feature_ of human nature, they exist to prevent genetic stagnation.)

What Paul didn't realize, or didn't perceive, was that his 'better' time line eventually ended in the extinction of the human race in some kind of enormous conflagration at which Herbert only hints. All we know is that it involved hunter-killer machines and other horrors, in the far-distant future. In fact, that's the _default_. Most choices lead there one way or another, the Golden Path is the exit route.

Leto II had a different moral perspective, in part because he was raised Fremen, while Paul never fully embraced the Fremen mindset, and in part because, along with the prescience, Leto II also had the 'ancestral memories', giving him a vastly superior range of perspectives and understanding. He followed the time lines down to their end, recognized what the options were, and had the Fremen/immortal ruthlessness necessary to carry out the least bad one.

Though in fact it's not clear that Paul even _could_ have done it. When Leto goes through the transformation process to become the sandworm-Leto, he is able to do it and survive in part because of the vast knowledge he has from the ancestral memory, of things like biochemistry and so forth, to let him adjust the fine details and make the transformation work. He muses during it that his body had so much mélange in it now that it was only by constant, deliberate self-control of his cellular chemistry that he was avoiding instant death by overdose. He had the knowledge of thousands of scientists, thousands of Bene Gesserit ancestors, hordes of Fremen ancestors, to give him the necessary skills and abilities.

Paul didn't have that, so it's not certain he could have successfully made the transformation.
Quadibloc
2018-03-31 06:36:45 UTC
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On Friday, March 30, 2018 at 9:55:44 PM UTC-6, Johnny1A wrote:

> (In Herbert's world, the periodic religious jihads and nomadic barbarian
> invasions that overwhelm civilization ever so often, all the way back to the
> stone age, are actually a _feature_ of human nature, they exist to prevent
> genetic stagnation.)

Although I read some of the Dune novels, this is the sort of thing that explains
why I could not relate to them.

After the apparent hero, in the first novel, wins a degree of improved freedom
for the people of dry Arrakis... what I would have wanted to see was progress to
a proper Campbellian universe.

One where...

People once again are free to have computers,

so that they can explore the galaxy at lesser expense...

and a way is found to synthesize spice, so that everyone can afford eternal
youth...

and the Bene Gesserit are destroyed, leading to a secular galaxy, although there
will be religious people as well, who have rediscovered the Holy Bible and now
follow genuine Christianity, not this bizarre counterfeit hybrid of Roman
Catholicism and Islam that they had inflicted on humanity!

And of course they are replaced by a ruling council of hyper-intelligent Fabian
Socialists who will make quite sure that there is never another war or barbarian
invasion _ever_, just continuous peace, prosperity, and technological progress,
galaxy without end, amen.

John Savard
The Zygon
2018-03-31 08:20:24 UTC
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On Saturday, March 31, 2018 at 2:36:48 AM UTC-4, Quadibloc wrote:
> On Friday, March 30, 2018 at 9:55:44 PM UTC-6, Johnny1A wrote:
>
> > (In Herbert's world, the periodic religious jihads and nomadic barbarian
> > invasions that overwhelm civilization ever so often, all the way back to the
> > stone age, are actually a _feature_ of human nature, they exist to prevent
> > genetic stagnation.)
>
> Although I read some of the Dune novels, this is the sort of thing that explains
> why I could not relate to them.
>
> After the apparent hero, in the first novel, wins a degree of improved freedom
> for the people of dry Arrakis... what I would have wanted to see was progress to
> a proper Campbellian universe.
>
> One where...
>
> People once again are free to have computers,
>
> so that they can explore the galaxy at lesser expense...
>
> and a way is found to synthesize spice, so that everyone can afford eternal
> youth...
>
> and the Bene Gesserit are destroyed, leading to a secular galaxy, although there
> will be religious people as well, who have rediscovered the Holy Bible and now
> follow genuine Christianity, not this bizarre counterfeit hybrid of Roman
> Catholicism and Islam that they had inflicted on humanity!
>
> And of course they are replaced by a ruling council of hyper-intelligent Fabian
> Socialists who will make quite sure that there is never another war or barbarian
> invasion _ever_, just continuous peace, prosperity, and technological progress,
> galaxy without end, amen.
>
> John Savard

The Bene Gesserit were secular. It was secular cult.
Johnny1A
2018-04-01 18:50:24 UTC
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On Saturday, March 31, 2018 at 3:20:26 AM UTC-5, The Zygon wrote:
> On Saturday, March 31, 2018 at 2:36:48 AM UTC-4, Quadibloc wrote:
> > On Friday, March 30, 2018 at 9:55:44 PM UTC-6, Johnny1A wrote:
> >
> > > (In Herbert's world, the periodic religious jihads and nomadic barbarian
> > > invasions that overwhelm civilization ever so often, all the way back to the
> > > stone age, are actually a _feature_ of human nature, they exist to prevent
> > > genetic stagnation.)
> >
> > Although I read some of the Dune novels, this is the sort of thing that explains
> > why I could not relate to them.
> >
> > After the apparent hero, in the first novel, wins a degree of improved freedom
> > for the people of dry Arrakis... what I would have wanted to see was progress to
> > a proper Campbellian universe.
> >
> > One where...
> >
> > People once again are free to have computers,
> >
> > so that they can explore the galaxy at lesser expense...
> >
> > and a way is found to synthesize spice, so that everyone can afford eternal
> > youth...
> >
> > and the Bene Gesserit are destroyed, leading to a secular galaxy, although there
> > will be religious people as well, who have rediscovered the Holy Bible and now
> > follow genuine Christianity, not this bizarre counterfeit hybrid of Roman
> > Catholicism and Islam that they had inflicted on humanity!
> >
> > And of course they are replaced by a ruling council of hyper-intelligent Fabian
> > Socialists who will make quite sure that there is never another war or barbarian
> > invasion _ever_, just continuous peace, prosperity, and technological progress,
> > galaxy without end, amen.
> >
> > John Savard
>
> The Bene Gesserit were secular. It was secular cult.

Though one of Herbert's points in the Dune stories, too, is that religion isn't going away in the future. Neither is power politics, or family rivalries, or intellectual pretensions, or the profit motive, or employer vs. employee tension, or any of the other elements of human affairs we've known in the past.

You might say that the Dune stories are partly a deconstruction or denial or the H.G. Wells vision of the future that informed much Campbellian SF. (Thogh Campbell himself had a far more nuanced view of that than he gets credit for.)
The Zygon
2018-04-04 06:13:28 UTC
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On Sunday, April 1, 2018 at 2:50:27 PM UTC-4, Johnny1A wrote:
> On Saturday, March 31, 2018 at 3:20:26 AM UTC-5, The Zygon wrote:
> > On Saturday, March 31, 2018 at 2:36:48 AM UTC-4, Quadibloc wrote:
> > > On Friday, March 30, 2018 at 9:55:44 PM UTC-6, Johnny1A wrote:
> > >
> > > > (In Herbert's world, the periodic religious jihads and nomadic barbarian
> > > > invasions that overwhelm civilization ever so often, all the way back to the
> > > > stone age, are actually a _feature_ of human nature, they exist to prevent
> > > > genetic stagnation.)
> > >
> > > Although I read some of the Dune novels, this is the sort of thing that explains
> > > why I could not relate to them.
> > >
> > > After the apparent hero, in the first novel, wins a degree of improved freedom
> > > for the people of dry Arrakis... what I would have wanted to see was progress to
> > > a proper Campbellian universe.
> > >
> > > One where...
> > >
> > > People once again are free to have computers,
> > >
> > > so that they can explore the galaxy at lesser expense...
> > >
> > > and a way is found to synthesize spice, so that everyone can afford eternal
> > > youth...
> > >
> > > and the Bene Gesserit are destroyed, leading to a secular galaxy, although there
> > > will be religious people as well, who have rediscovered the Holy Bible and now
> > > follow genuine Christianity, not this bizarre counterfeit hybrid of Roman
> > > Catholicism and Islam that they had inflicted on humanity!
> > >
> > > And of course they are replaced by a ruling council of hyper-intelligent Fabian
> > > Socialists who will make quite sure that there is never another war or barbarian
> > > invasion _ever_, just continuous peace, prosperity, and technological progress,
> > > galaxy without end, amen.
> > >
> > > John Savard
> >
> > The Bene Gesserit were secular. It was secular cult.
>
> Though one of Herbert's points in the Dune stories, too, is that religion isn't going away in the future. Neither is power politics, or family rivalries, or intellectual pretensions, or the profit motive, or employer vs. employee tension, or any of the other elements of human affairs we've known in the past.
>
> You might say that the Dune stories are partly a deconstruction or denial or the H.G. Wells vision of the future that informed much Campbellian SF. (Thogh Campbell himself had a far more nuanced view of that than he gets credit for.)

Although I enjoyed most of the Dube books, I did not like the Dube future one little bit. History tells us that some of that stuff will go away, though we don't know which, or how. For one thing, the the West we don't anymore have families with private armies fighting private wars. We don't have theocracies.

Religion may be the last of humanity's social curses to die. But theism will probably die long before religion.
David DeLaney
2018-04-04 09:28:12 UTC
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On 2018-04-04, The Zygon <***@gmail.com> wrote:
> For one thing, the the West we don't anymore have families with private
> armies fighting private wars.

No; now we have corporations and governments with them. Both of which can bre
likened in some ways to various dysfunctional classes of family...

> We don't have theocracies.

Tchk. Not as entire Western nations, no ... but there are some out there, as
well as whole bunches of little tiny enclaves where someone has set himself
(always himself, sigh) up as a theocratic local lord, usually with multi-
fornication rights to boot. They would grow if they could, to absorb all
around them, and need not to be forgotten about.

> Religion may be the last of humanity's social curses to die. But theism will
> probably die long before religion.

We appear to have a built-in tendency to anthropomorphize. If we get rid of
that entirely, I think we count as posthuman...

Dave, people are gonna act like people. this is the MAJOR flaw with just about
every utopia, they're built to work with beings that don't actually act like
people in some ways
--
\/David DeLaney posting thru EarthLink - "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
my gatekeeper archives are no longer accessible :( / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.
m***@sky.com
2018-04-04 17:40:32 UTC
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On Wednesday, April 4, 2018 at 7:13:30 AM UTC+1, The Zygon wrote:
> On Sunday, April 1, 2018 at 2:50:27 PM UTC-4, Johnny1A wrote:
> > On Saturday, March 31, 2018 at 3:20:26 AM UTC-5, The Zygon wrote:
> > > On Saturday, March 31, 2018 at 2:36:48 AM UTC-4, Quadibloc wrote:
> > > > On Friday, March 30, 2018 at 9:55:44 PM UTC-6, Johnny1A wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > (In Herbert's world, the periodic religious jihads and nomadic barbarian
> > > > > invasions that overwhelm civilization ever so often, all the way back to the
> > > > > stone age, are actually a _feature_ of human nature, they exist to prevent
> > > > > genetic stagnation.)
> > > >
> > > > Although I read some of the Dune novels, this is the sort of thing that explains
> > > > why I could not relate to them.
> > > >
> > > > After the apparent hero, in the first novel, wins a degree of improved freedom
> > > > for the people of dry Arrakis... what I would have wanted to see was progress to
> > > > a proper Campbellian universe.
> > > >
> > > > One where...
> > > >
> > > > People once again are free to have computers,
> > > >
> > > > so that they can explore the galaxy at lesser expense...
> > > >
> > > > and a way is found to synthesize spice, so that everyone can afford eternal
> > > > youth...
> > > >
> > > > and the Bene Gesserit are destroyed, leading to a secular galaxy, although there
> > > > will be religious people as well, who have rediscovered the Holy Bible and now
> > > > follow genuine Christianity, not this bizarre counterfeit hybrid of Roman
> > > > Catholicism and Islam that they had inflicted on humanity!
> > > >
> > > > And of course they are replaced by a ruling council of hyper-intelligent Fabian
> > > > Socialists who will make quite sure that there is never another war or barbarian
> > > > invasion _ever_, just continuous peace, prosperity, and technological progress,
> > > > galaxy without end, amen.
> > > >
> > > > John Savard
> > >
> > > The Bene Gesserit were secular. It was secular cult.
> >
> > Though one of Herbert's points in the Dune stories, too, is that religion isn't going away in the future. Neither is power politics, or family rivalries, or intellectual pretensions, or the profit motive, or employer vs. employee tension, or any of the other elements of human affairs we've known in the past.
> >
> > You might say that the Dune stories are partly a deconstruction or denial or the H.G. Wells vision of the future that informed much Campbellian SF. (Thogh Campbell himself had a far more nuanced view of that than he gets credit for.)
>
> Although I enjoyed most of the Dube books, I did not like the Dube future one little bit. History tells us that some of that stuff will go away, though we don't know which, or how. For one thing, the the West we don't anymore have families with private armies fighting private wars. We don't have theocracies.
>
> Religion may be the last of humanity's social curses to die. But theism will probably die long before religion.

I have been reading Fukuyama's Political Order and Political Decay (https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B00KDB2JP0/ref=dp-kindle-redirect?_encoding=UTF8&btkr=1) Although he resolutely refuses to predict anything, a lot of what he says could be turned into predictions. He reckons that humans are hardwired to favour family and friends, and so organisations including governments are always at risk of deviating from the path of fair and objective decisions towards favoring and employing friends and family. Families fighting private wars? perhaps not. Political dynasties? always a risk.

PS - he reckons the US Civil service was subject to mass political preferment and other favouritism for longer than the UK civil service, which I think explains to me why Heinlein was much more critical of the civil service than somebody with a UK background of the same era might be.
Quadibloc
2018-04-04 17:54:33 UTC
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On Wednesday, April 4, 2018 at 12:13:30 AM UTC-6, The Zygon wrote:
> But theism will probably die long before religion.

Belief in God will die before religion does?

Or did you mean "theocracy" instead of "theism"?

John Savard
Juho Julkunen
2018-03-31 14:57:23 UTC
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In article <5e43b128-7152-49d7-8532-***@googlegroups.com>,
***@ecn.ab.ca says...
>
> On Friday, March 30, 2018 at 9:55:44 PM UTC-6, Johnny1A wrote:
>
> > (In Herbert's world, the periodic religious jihads and nomadic barbarian
> > invasions that overwhelm civilization ever so often, all the way back to the
> > stone age, are actually a _feature_ of human nature, they exist to prevent
> > genetic stagnation.)
>
> Although I read some of the Dune novels, this is the sort of thing that explains
> why I could not relate to them.
>
> After the apparent hero, in the first novel, wins a degree of improved freedom
> for the people of dry Arrakis... what I would have wanted to see was progress to
> a proper Campbellian universe.
>
> One where...
>
> People once again are free to have computers,
>
> so that they can explore the galaxy at lesser expense...
>
> and a way is found to synthesize spice, so that everyone can afford eternal
> youth...
>
> and the Bene Gesserit are destroyed, leading to a secular galaxy, although there
> will be religious people as well, who have rediscovered the Holy Bible and now
> follow genuine Christianity, not this bizarre counterfeit hybrid of Roman
> Catholicism and Islam that they had inflicted on humanity!

But the people of _Dune_ universe have the Holy Bible. The Orange
Catholic Bible, based on shared universal truths, rather than the
bizarre counterfeit hybrid of Judaism and Caesar cult "Christians"
inflicted on humanity.

--
Juho Julkunen
Robert Carnegie
2018-04-01 01:42:37 UTC
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On Saturday, 31 March 2018 15:57:09 UTC+1, Juho Julkunen wrote:
> In article <5e43b128-7152-49d7-8532-***@googlegroups.com>,
> ***@ecn.ab.ca says...
> >
> > On Friday, March 30, 2018 at 9:55:44 PM UTC-6, Johnny1A wrote:
> >
> > > (In Herbert's world, the periodic religious jihads and nomadic barbarian
> > > invasions that overwhelm civilization ever so often, all the way back to the
> > > stone age, are actually a _feature_ of human nature, they exist to prevent
> > > genetic stagnation.)
> >
> > Although I read some of the Dune novels, this is the sort of thing that explains
> > why I could not relate to them.
> >
> > After the apparent hero, in the first novel, wins a degree of improved freedom
> > for the people of dry Arrakis... what I would have wanted to see was progress to
> > a proper Campbellian universe.
> >
> > One where...
> >
> > People once again are free to have computers,
> >
> > so that they can explore the galaxy at lesser expense...
> >
> > and a way is found to synthesize spice, so that everyone can afford eternal
> > youth...
> >
> > and the Bene Gesserit are destroyed, leading to a secular galaxy, although there
> > will be religious people as well, who have rediscovered the Holy Bible and now
> > follow genuine Christianity, not this bizarre counterfeit hybrid of Roman
> > Catholicism and Islam that they had inflicted on humanity!
>
> But the people of _Dune_ universe have the Holy Bible. The Orange
> Catholic Bible, based on shared universal truths, rather than the
> bizarre counterfeit hybrid of Judaism and Caesar cult "Christians"
> inflicted on humanity.

The word "catholic" is confusing. Literally, it means
"for everyone". So in real history, you get multiple factions
of religion calling themselves "catholic".

I forget if it comes up, or if it would, but in second millennium
Ireland, "Orange" and "Catholic" were opposite sides, and, at that
time, without ambiguity AFAIK.
Quadibloc
2018-04-01 02:41:26 UTC
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I'm assuming that since Islam and Christianity are compounded in this
faith, the union of opposites was indeed intended by the author in the
name of the Orange Catholic Bible. Hinduism, Buddhism, and
Zoroastrianism escaped being thrown into the mix only due to being less
immediately familiar to the typical English-language reader.
Juho Julkunen
2018-04-01 03:45:15 UTC
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In article <4aafec04-67e4-4891-b306-***@googlegroups.com>,
***@ecn.ab.ca says...
>
> I'm assuming that since Islam and Christianity are compounded in this
> faith, the union of opposites was indeed intended by the author in the
> name of the Orange Catholic Bible. Hinduism, Buddhism, and
> Zoroastrianism escaped being thrown into the mix only due to being less
> immediately familiar to the typical English-language reader.

All religions with more than a million followers were represented in
the Comission of Ecumenical Translators that produced the O.C. Bible.
And the followers of the Fourteen Sages were hardly the only faith
around.

It might be valuable to remember that the events of _Dune_ take place
some 20 000 years from present day. I don't think one can point to very
many religions that have survived unchanged for that long.

--
Juho Julkunen
J. Clarke
2018-04-01 03:49:33 UTC
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On Sat, 31 Mar 2018 19:41:26 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc
<***@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:

>I'm assuming that since Islam and Christianity are compounded in this
>faith, the union of opposites was indeed intended by the author in the
>name of the Orange Catholic Bible. Hinduism, Buddhism, and
>Zoroastrianism escaped being thrown into the mix only due to being less
>immediately familiar to the typical English-language reader.

Read it again Quadi. You missed something.
Johnny1A
2018-04-01 18:47:03 UTC
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On Saturday, March 31, 2018 at 1:36:48 AM UTC-5, Quadibloc wrote:
> On Friday, March 30, 2018 at 9:55:44 PM UTC-6, Johnny1A wrote:
>
> > (In Herbert's world, the periodic religious jihads and nomadic barbarian
> > invasions that overwhelm civilization ever so often, all the way back to the
> > stone age, are actually a _feature_ of human nature, they exist to prevent
> > genetic stagnation.)
>
> Although I read some of the Dune novels, this is the sort of thing that explains
> why I could not relate to them.
>
> After the apparent hero, in the first novel, wins a degree of improved freedom
> for the people of dry Arrakis... what I would have wanted to see was progress to
> a proper Campbellian universe.

:lol:

One of Herbert's _points_ was that the Campbellian universe popular in SF was an illusion, a mirage.

There are plentiful hints, even in the first novel, that the situation is not what it looks like, and that Paul's apparent triumph is actually not necessarily good.


> One where...
>
> People once again are free to have computers,
>
> so that they can explore the galaxy at lesser expense...
>
> and a way is found to synthesize spice, so that everyone can afford eternal
> youth...
>
> and the Bene Gesserit are destroyed, leading to a secular galaxy, although there
> will be religious people as well, who have rediscovered the Holy Bible and now
> follow genuine Christianity, not this bizarre counterfeit hybrid of Roman
> Catholicism and Islam that they had inflicted on humanity!

Most of which is impossible in the Dune universe (or reality), because that's not how it works. That was part of Herbert's point.

Computer, for ex, eventually do become acceptable to use again, and the Bene Gesserit used them in secret even during the proscribed period. But contra that 'prequels', the Butlerian Jihad was never _really_ about computers in the first place, as such. Leto II makes that clear, and he was there, in a sense.

Someone asked Herbert once what the point of his first three Dune novels was, and he said, "Beware of heroes."
The Zygon
2018-04-04 06:07:48 UTC
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On Sunday, April 1, 2018 at 2:47:06 PM UTC-4, Johnny1A wrote:
> On Saturday, March 31, 2018 at 1:36:48 AM UTC-5, Quadibloc wrote:
> > On Friday, March 30, 2018 at 9:55:44 PM UTC-6, Johnny1A wrote:
> >
> > > (In Herbert's world, the periodic religious jihads and nomadic barbarian
> > > invasions that overwhelm civilization ever so often, all the way back to the
> > > stone age, are actually a _feature_ of human nature, they exist to prevent
> > > genetic stagnation.)
> >
> > Although I read some of the Dune novels, this is the sort of thing that explains
> > why I could not relate to them.
> >
> > After the apparent hero, in the first novel, wins a degree of improved freedom
> > for the people of dry Arrakis... what I would have wanted to see was progress to
> > a proper Campbellian universe.
>
> :lol:
>
> One of Herbert's _points_ was that the Campbellian universe popular in SF was an illusion, a mirage.
>
> There are plentiful hints, even in the first novel, that the situation is not what it looks like, and that Paul's apparent triumph is actually not necessarily good.
>
>
> > One where...
> >
> > People once again are free to have computers,
> >
> > so that they can explore the galaxy at lesser expense...
> >
> > and a way is found to synthesize spice, so that everyone can afford eternal
> > youth...
> >
> > and the Bene Gesserit are destroyed, leading to a secular galaxy, although there
> > will be religious people as well, who have rediscovered the Holy Bible and now
> > follow genuine Christianity, not this bizarre counterfeit hybrid of Roman
> > Catholicism and Islam that they had inflicted on humanity!
>
> Most of which is impossible in the Dune universe (or reality), because that's not how it works. That was part of Herbert's point.
>
> Computer, for ex, eventually do become acceptable to use again, and the Bene Gesserit used them in secret even during the proscribed period. But contra that 'prequels', the Butlerian Jihad was never _really_ about computers in the first place, as such. Leto II makes that clear, and he was there, in a sense.
>
> Someone asked Herbert once what the point of his first three Dune novels was, and he said, "Beware of heroes."

Of the first three, I liked only _Due_. For me, the series did not pick up again until the _God Emperor of Dune_. How did you rate them, personally?
The Zygon
2018-03-31 08:18:30 UTC
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On Friday, March 30, 2018 at 11:55:44 PM UTC-4, Johnny1A wrote:
> On Wednesday, March 28, 2018 at 12:18:06 AM UTC-5, The Zygon wrote:
> > On Tuesday, March 27, 2018 at 12:31:22 AM UTC-4, Johnny1A wrote:
> > > On Sunday, March 25, 2018 at 11:37:09 PM UTC-5, larry wrote:
> > > > On 2018-03-06, The Zygon <***@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > >> >> <snip>
> > > > >> >>
> > > > >> >>>> While posting in another thread, I recaled how, in my youth, I used to
> > > > >> >>>> love stories in which humans ruled the galaxy. Anyone recalls any good
> > > > >> >>>> stories of this type?
> > > > >> >>>
> > > > >> >>> This has been answered downthread.
> > > > >> >>>
> > > > >> >>
> > > > >> >> All of this alien talk in the group as of late made me question the
> > > > >> >> existence of humanity in sf stories. Does humanity actually appear in
> > > > >> >> Herbert's _Dune_ franchise or Asimov's _Foundation_ franchise? Or, are
> > > > >> >> the characters in those stories just anthromorphic aliens?
> > > > >> >
> > > > >> > Well, Asimov deliberately put his Galactic Empire in a Galaxy
> > > > >> > inhabited only by humans. This was because John Campbell, who
> > > > >> > published the stories one by one, had his prejudices. He
> > > > >> > expanded his belief that Northern Europeans were the best of the
> > > > >> > human race, to a fondness for stories in which humans were the
> > > > >> > best of the life-forms in the universe. Not wishing to go with
> > > > >> > that meme, Asimov wrote of a Galaxy in which there were nobody
> > > > >> > *but* humans.
> > > > >> >
> > > > >> > Campbell also published the original _Dune_, but I don't know
> > > > >> > whether Herbert also deliberately chose to write only about
> > > > >> > humans, or even whether his humans were really human. They
> > > > >> > certainly acted like it.
> > > > >> >
> > > > >> Those are humans in 'Dune'. There is an official timeline that extends
> > > > >> back to Earth. The events in the timeline are described as viewed by
> > > > >> the people of Dune's time, with descriptions like "The Imperial House
> > > > >> moved from London to Washington after the first use of atomics in war"
> > > > >> but it leaves no doubt that the people in 'Dune' are at least the
> > > > >> descendants of Earth humans.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> There was also a throwaway line in one of the later books where some
> > > > >> Bene Geserrit (sp?) is thinking to herself "If only the Ixians knew the
> > > > >> name of their planet came from the ancient symbol for the number 9".
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >> --
> > > > >> Inquiring minds want to know while minds with a self-preservation
> > > > >> instinct are running screaming.
> > > > >
> > > > > They are descendants of humans. But some of them are _arguably_ not human.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Spice is a terrible mistress.
> > > >
> > >
> > > Indeed so. Paul Atreides himself called it a 'poison' in _Dune_. It's a poison that will quadruple your lifespan if you haved a steady supply of it, but kill you quickly if you try to stop using it, or have your supply cut off.
> > >
> > > The prescience it can endow is also a terrible thing, in the old sense of the word. Look at the fate Paul Atreides met in trying to deal with it, and what Leto II had to go through, and put the human race through, to succeed in dealing with that same challenge.
> >
> > Did they do what they did because the had the ability? Or because the _Atreides (sp?) morality_ forced them to address the awful fate they saw for humanity. One of the books also suggested that Paul could have done what Leto did, but could not bring himself to make so great a sacrifice.
>
> It's complicated. Paul saw the Golden Path, yes, but rejected it both because he found it personally repellent and morally horrific. He didn't want to go through what Leto II went through, and he didn't want to do that to the human race, either.
>
> Instead, Paul tried to select the time line forward that was most peaceful, that looked 'best', in the conventional sense. He had tried, and failed, to prevent 'his' own Jihad, because the price of doing so had been too high for him (murder/suicide of his friends, his mother, and himself, more or less), but he hoped to break the endless Jihad cycle going back into prehistory.
>
> (In Herbert's world, the periodic religious jihads and nomadic barbarian invasions that overwhelm civilization ever so often, all the way back to the stone age, are actually a _feature_ of human nature, they exist to prevent genetic stagnation.)
>
> What Paul didn't realize, or didn't perceive, was that his 'better' time line eventually ended in the extinction of the human race in some kind of enormous conflagration at which Herbert only hints. All we know is that it involved hunter-killer machines and other horrors, in the far-distant future. In fact, that's the _default_. Most choices lead there one way or another, the Golden Path is the exit route.
>
> Leto II had a different moral perspective, in part because he was raised Fremen, while Paul never fully embraced the Fremen mindset, and in part because, along with the prescience, Leto II also had the 'ancestral memories', giving him a vastly superior range of perspectives and understanding. He followed the time lines down to their end, recognized what the options were, and had the Fremen/immortal ruthlessness necessary to carry out the least bad one.
>
> Though in fact it's not clear that Paul even _could_ have done it. When Leto goes through the transformation process to become the sandworm-Leto, he is able to do it and survive in part because of the vast knowledge he has from the ancestral memory, of things like biochemistry and so forth, to let him adjust the fine details and make the transformation work. He muses during it that his body had so much mélange in it now that it was only by constant, deliberate self-control of his cellular chemistry that he was avoiding instant death by overdose. He had the knowledge of thousands of scientists, thousands of Bene Gesserit ancestors, hordes of Fremen ancestors, to give him the necessary skills and abilities.
>
> Paul didn't have that, so it's not certain he could have successfully made the transformation.

Leto once referred to himself as a committee or collective or some such thing.
Juho Julkunen
2018-03-05 17:36:32 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
In article <***@crcomp.net>, ***@crcomp.net says...
>
> Dorothy J Heydt <***@kithrup.com> wrote:
> > In article <da287717-da3f-4d29-adf5-***@googlegroups.com>,
> > The Zygon <***@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
> >>While posting in another thread, I recaled how, in my youth, I used to
> >>love stories in which humans ruled the galaxy. Anyone recalls any good
> >>stories of this type?
> >
> > This has been answered downthread.
> >
>
> All of this alien talk in the group as of late made me question the
> existence of humanity in sf stories. Does humanity actually appear in
> Herbert's _Dune_ franchise or Asimov's _Foundation_ franchise? Or, are
> the characters in those stories just anthromorphic aliens?

People in Dune are definitely human. One key conceit in _Dune_ is
genetic memory, and characters that can unlock it have inherited
memories going back to historic times on Old Earth. In _Dune Messiah_
Paul explicitly compares his body count to Hitler and Genghis Khan.
(His is higher.)

I don't think there are any intelligent aliens in _Dune_ or the sequels
(unless you count some human offshoots), though I think the notion is
floated that the sandworms might be the bioengineered product of some
unknown agency.

--
Juho Julkunen
The Zygon
2018-03-06 01:36:51 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
> > <snip>
> >
> > >>While posting in another thread, I recaled how, in my youth, I used to
> > >>love stories in which humans ruled the galaxy. Anyone recalls any good
> > >>stories of this type?
> > >
> > > This has been answered downthread.
> > >
> >
> > All of this alien talk in the group as of late made me question the
> > existence of humanity in sf stories. Does humanity actually appear in
> > Herbert's _Dune_ franchise or Asimov's _Foundation_ franchise? Or, are
> > the characters in those stories just anthromorphic aliens?
>
> People in Dune are definitely human. One key conceit in _Dune_ is
> genetic memory, and characters that can unlock it have inherited
> memories going back to historic times on Old Earth. In _Dune Messiah_
> Paul explicitly compares his body count to Hitler and Genghis Khan.
> (His is higher.)
>
> I don't think there are any intelligent aliens in _Dune_ or the sequels
> (unless you count some human offshoots), though I think the notion is
> floated that the sandworms might be the bioengineered product of some
> unknown agency.
>
> --
> Juho Julkunen

There are intelligent aliens in _Dune_. The Guild Masters may have been human, but are not any more. I think that it could be reasonably argued that the shape shifters were not human.

In the series as a whole there are other less controversially non-human species.
J. Clarke
2018-03-06 03:01:00 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On Mon, 5 Mar 2018 17:36:51 -0800 (PST), The Zygon
<***@gmail.com> wrote:

>> > <snip>
>> >
>> > >>While posting in another thread, I recaled how, in my youth, I used to
>> > >>love stories in which humans ruled the galaxy. Anyone recalls any good
>> > >>stories of this type?
>> > >
>> > > This has been answered downthread.
>> > >
>> >
>> > All of this alien talk in the group as of late made me question the
>> > existence of humanity in sf stories. Does humanity actually appear in
>> > Herbert's _Dune_ franchise or Asimov's _Foundation_ franchise? Or, are
>> > the characters in those stories just anthromorphic aliens?
>>
>> People in Dune are definitely human. One key conceit in _Dune_ is
>> genetic memory, and characters that can unlock it have inherited
>> memories going back to historic times on Old Earth. In _Dune Messiah_
>> Paul explicitly compares his body count to Hitler and Genghis Khan.
>> (His is higher.)
>>
>> I don't think there are any intelligent aliens in _Dune_ or the sequels
>> (unless you count some human offshoots), though I think the notion is
>> floated that the sandworms might be the bioengineered product of some
>> unknown agency.
>>
>> --
>> Juho Julkunen
>
>There are intelligent aliens in _Dune_. The Guild Masters may have been human, but are not any more. I think that it could be reasonably argued that the shape shifters were not human.
>
>In the series as a whole there are other less controversially non-human species.

There are? Other than sandworms and the other fauna of Arrakis? I
would not advise suggesting that to a Reverend Mother while she held a
Gom Jabbar at your neck.
Quadibloc
2018-03-06 06:36:32 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On Monday, March 5, 2018 at 8:01:02 PM UTC-7, J. Clarke wrote:
> On Mon, 5 Mar 2018 17:36:51 -0800 (PST), The Zygon
> <***@gmail.com> wrote:

> >In the series as a whole there are other less controversially non-human species.

> There are? Other than sandworms and the other fauna of Arrakis? I
> would not advise suggesting that to a Reverend Mother while she held a
> Gom Jabbar at your neck.

What about those whale things that use spice so they can pilot FTL spacecraft?

John Savard
The Zygon
2018-03-06 06:59:21 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
> > >In the series as a whole there are other less controversially non-human species.
>
> > There are? Other than sandworms and the other fauna of Arrakis? I
> > would not advise suggesting that to a Reverend Mother while she held a
> > Gom Jabbar at your neck.
>
> What about those whale things that use spice so they can pilot FTL spacecraft?
>
> John Savard

Exactly. They cannot even breathe a normal atmosphere.
J. Clarke
2018-03-06 11:30:54 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On Mon, 5 Mar 2018 22:59:21 -0800 (PST), The Zygon
<***@gmail.com> wrote:

>
>> > >In the series as a whole there are other less controversially non-human species.
>>
>> > There are? Other than sandworms and the other fauna of Arrakis? I
>> > would not advise suggesting that to a Reverend Mother while she held a
>> > Gom Jabbar at your neck.
>>
>> What about those whale things that use spice so they can pilot FTL spacecraft?
>>
>> John Savard
>
>Exactly. They cannot even breathe a normal atmosphere.

How does that make them nonhuman?
J. Clarke
2018-03-06 11:30:27 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On Mon, 5 Mar 2018 22:36:32 -0800 (PST), Quadibloc <***@ecn.ab.ca>
wrote:

>On Monday, March 5, 2018 at 8:01:02 PM UTC-7, J. Clarke wrote:
>> On Mon, 5 Mar 2018 17:36:51 -0800 (PST), The Zygon
>> <***@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> >In the series as a whole there are other less controversially non-human species.
>
>> There are? Other than sandworms and the other fauna of Arrakis? I
>> would not advise suggesting that to a Reverend Mother while she held a
>> Gom Jabbar at your neck.
>
>What about those whale things that use spice so they can pilot FTL spacecraft?

What "whale things"? FTL spacecraft are piloted by Guild navigators.
Apparently long term immersion in a melange-rich environoment does
things to them, but Herbert never described them as "whale things" or
to my recollection detailed what, exactly it does other than let them
see far enough ahead in time to navigate.
Juho Julkunen
2018-03-06 13:13:50 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
In article <***@4ax.com>, jclarke.873638
@gmail.com says...
>
> On Mon, 5 Mar 2018 22:36:32 -0800 (PST), Quadibloc <***@ecn.ab.ca>
> wrote:
>
> >On Monday, March 5, 2018 at 8:01:02 PM UTC-7, J. Clarke wrote:
> >> On Mon, 5 Mar 2018 17:36:51 -0800 (PST), The Zygon
> >> <***@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >> >In the series as a whole there are other less controversially non-human species.
> >
> >> There are? Other than sandworms and the other fauna of Arrakis? I
> >> would not advise suggesting that to a Reverend Mother while she held a
> >> Gom Jabbar at your neck.
> >
> >What about those whale things that use spice so they can pilot FTL spacecraft?
>
> What "whale things"? FTL spacecraft are piloted by Guild navigators.
> Apparently long term immersion in a melange-rich environoment does
> things to them, but Herbert never described them as "whale things" or
> to my recollection detailed what, exactly it does other than let them
> see far enough ahead in time to navigate.

In _Dune_, we see two Guild navigators who look just like ordinary
people, and can walk about freely. Their most notable feature is the
blue-on-blue eyes of a Spice addict, which they conceal with contact
lenses.

Paul considered Guild as a possible career option in his exile,
suggesting Guild recruits suitably gifted individuals from the common
pool of humanity.

_Dune Messiah_ introduced one elongated Guild steersman with webbed
hands, swimming in a tank filled with pale orange gas. His appearance
is probably from some combination of prolonged exposure to melange and
spending his life in space. That doesn't make him nonhuman.

The creature from the movie is the creature from the movie.

--
Juho Julkunen
The Zygon
2018-03-07 01:15:38 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On Tuesday, March 6, 2018 at 8:13:34 AM UTC-5, Juho Julkunen wrote:
> In article <***@4ax.com>, jclarke.873638
> @gmail.com says...
> >
> > On Mon, 5 Mar 2018 22:36:32 -0800 (PST), Quadibloc <***@ecn.ab.ca>
> > wrote:
> >
> > >On Monday, March 5, 2018 at 8:01:02 PM UTC-7, J. Clarke wrote:
> > >> On Mon, 5 Mar 2018 17:36:51 -0800 (PST), The Zygon
> > >> <***@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > >> >In the series as a whole there are other less controversially non-human species.
> > >
> > >> There are? Other than sandworms and the other fauna of Arrakis? I
> > >> would not advise suggesting that to a Reverend Mother while she held a
> > >> Gom Jabbar at your neck.
> > >
> > >What about those whale things that use spice so they can pilot FTL spacecraft?
> >
> > What "whale things"? FTL spacecraft are piloted by Guild navigators.
> > Apparently long term immersion in a melange-rich environoment does
> > things to them, but Herbert never described them as "whale things" or
> > to my recollection detailed what, exactly it does other than let them
> > see far enough ahead in time to navigate.
>
> In _Dune_, we see two Guild navigators who look just like ordinary
> people, and can walk about freely. Their most notable feature is the
> blue-on-blue eyes of a Spice addict, which they conceal with contact
> lenses.
>
> Paul considered Guild as a possible career option in his exile,
> suggesting Guild recruits suitably gifted individuals from the common
> pool of humanity.
>
> _Dune Messiah_ introduced one elongated Guild steersman with webbed
> hands, swimming in a tank filled with pale orange gas. His appearance
> is probably from some combination of prolonged exposure to melange and
> spending his life in space. That doesn't make him nonhuman.
>
> The creature from the movie is the creature from the movie.
>
> --
> Juho Julkunen

That is why I said "arguably" non-human when referring to the Guild Masters. I meant that one could reasonable argue such. I think that the book is ambiguous.
Dimensional Traveler
2018-03-07 02:55:30 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On 3/6/2018 5:15 PM, The Zygon wrote:
> On Tuesday, March 6, 2018 at 8:13:34 AM UTC-5, Juho Julkunen wrote:
>> In article <***@4ax.com>, jclarke.873638
>> @gmail.com says...
>>>
>>> On Mon, 5 Mar 2018 22:36:32 -0800 (PST), Quadibloc <***@ecn.ab.ca>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Monday, March 5, 2018 at 8:01:02 PM UTC-7, J. Clarke wrote:
>>>>> On Mon, 5 Mar 2018 17:36:51 -0800 (PST), The Zygon
>>>>> <***@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>> In the series as a whole there are other less controversially non-human species.
>>>>
>>>>> There are? Other than sandworms and the other fauna of Arrakis? I
>>>>> would not advise suggesting that to a Reverend Mother while she held a
>>>>> Gom Jabbar at your neck.
>>>>
>>>> What about those whale things that use spice so they can pilot FTL spacecraft?
>>>
>>> What "whale things"? FTL spacecraft are piloted by Guild navigators.
>>> Apparently long term immersion in a melange-rich environoment does
>>> things to them, but Herbert never described them as "whale things" or
>>> to my recollection detailed what, exactly it does other than let them
>>> see far enough ahead in time to navigate.
>>
>> In _Dune_, we see two Guild navigators who look just like ordinary
>> people, and can walk about freely. Their most notable feature is the
>> blue-on-blue eyes of a Spice addict, which they conceal with contact
>> lenses.
>>
>> Paul considered Guild as a possible career option in his exile,
>> suggesting Guild recruits suitably gifted individuals from the common
>> pool of humanity.
>>
>> _Dune Messiah_ introduced one elongated Guild steersman with webbed
>> hands, swimming in a tank filled with pale orange gas. His appearance
>> is probably from some combination of prolonged exposure to melange and
>> spending his life in space. That doesn't make him nonhuman.
>>
>> The creature from the movie is the creature from the movie.
>>
>> --
>> Juho Julkunen
>
> That is why I said "arguably" non-human when referring to the Guild Masters. I meant that one could reasonable argue such. I think that the book is ambiguous.
>
Human descendant.

--
Inquiring minds want to know while minds with a self-preservation
instinct are running screaming.
Michael F. Stemper
2018-03-08 00:24:04 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On 2018-03-06 07:13, Juho Julkunen wrote:
> In article <***@4ax.com>, jclarke.873638
> @gmail.com says...

>> What "whale things"? FTL spacecraft are piloted by Guild navigators.
>> Apparently long term immersion in a melange-rich environoment does
>> things to them, but Herbert never described them as "whale things" or
>> to my recollection detailed what, exactly it does other than let them
>> see far enough ahead in time to navigate.
>
> In _Dune_, we see two Guild navigators who look just like ordinary
> people, and can walk about freely. Their most notable feature is the
> blue-on-blue eyes of a Spice addict, which they conceal with contact
> lenses.

I'd like to read the text myself. I just skimmed through the book, but
wasn't able to find this passage. It's when the Guild meets with the
Padishah Emperor, right? I remember that as just being "Guild
representatives" rather than "Guild navigators", but my memory could
be going.

--
Michael F. Stemper
The FAQ for rec.arts.sf.written is at:
http://leepers.us/evelyn/faqs/sf-written
Please read it before posting.
D B Davis
2018-03-08 03:40:30 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Michael F. Stemper <***@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 2018-03-06 07:13, Juho Julkunen wrote:
>> In article <***@4ax.com>, jclarke.873638
>> @gmail.com says...
>
>>> What "whale things"? FTL spacecraft are piloted by Guild navigators.
>>> Apparently long term immersion in a melange-rich environoment does
>>> things to them, but Herbert never described them as "whale things" or
>>> to my recollection detailed what, exactly it does other than let them
>>> see far enough ahead in time to navigate.
>>
>> In _Dune_, we see two Guild navigators who look just like ordinary
>> people, and can walk about freely. Their most notable feature is the
>> blue-on-blue eyes of a Spice addict, which they conceal with contact
>> lenses.
>
> I'd like to read the text myself. I just skimmed through the book, but
> wasn't able to find this passage. It's when the Guild meets with the
> Padishah Emperor, right? I remember that as just being "Guild
> representatives" rather than "Guild navigators", but my memory could
> be going.
>

Although the novel doesn't specifically mention blue-on-blue eyes, it's
a given for anyone who uses spice. The "whale things" only appear in
Dune's 1984 Hollywood treatment. The "whale things" crash diet to become
skinny for the 2000 treatment. This excerpt begins near the bottom of
page 475 in MMPB:

"There's a massed armada of the Great Houses in space over
Arrakis right now," the Emperor said. "I've but to say the word
and they'll --"
"Oh, yes," Paul said, "I almost forgot about them." He
searched through the Emperor's suite until he saw the faces of
the two Guildsmen, spoke aside to Gurney. "Are those the Guild
agents, Gurney, the two fat ones dressed in gray over there?"
"Yes, m'Lord."
"You two," Paul said, pointing. "Get out of there immediately
and dispatch messages that will get that fleet on its way home.
After this, you'll ask my permission before --"
"The Guild doesn't take your orders!" the taller of the two
barked. He and his companion pushed through to the barrier
lances, which were raised at a nod from Paul. The two men
stepped out and the taller leveled an arm at Paul, said:
"You may very well be under embargo for your --"
"If I hear any more nonsense from either of you," Paul
said, "I'll give the order that'll destroy all spice production
on Arrakis . . . forever."
"Are you mad?" the tall Guildsman demanded. He fell back half
a step.
"You grant that I have the power to do this thing, then?"
Paul asked.
The Guildsman seemed to stare into space for a moment, then:
"Yes, you could do it, but you must not."
"Ah-h-h," Paul said and nodded to himself. "Guild navigators,
both of you, eh?"
"Yes!"
The shorter of the pair said: "You would blind yourself, too,
and condemn us all to slow death. Have you any idea what it means
to be deprived of the spice liquor once you're addicted?"
"The eye that looks ahead to the safe course is closed
forever," Paul said.
"The Guild is crippled. Humans become little isolated clusters
on their isolated planets. You know, I might do this thing out of
pure spite . . . or out of ennui."
"Let us talk this over privately," the taller Guildsman said.
"I'm sure we can come to some compromise that is --"
"Send the message to your people over Arrakis," Paul said.
"I grow tired of this argument. If that fleet over us doesn't
leave soon there'll be no need for us to talk." He nodded toward
his communications men at the side of the hall.
"You may use our equipment."
"First we must discuss this," the tall Guildsman said.
"We cannot just --"
"Do it!" Paul barked. "The power to destroy a thing is the
absolute control over it. You've agreed I have that power. We
are not here to discuss or to negotiate or to compromise. You
will obey my orders or suffer the immediate consequences!"
"He means it," the shorter Guildsman said. And Paul saw the
fear grip them. Slowly the two crossed to the Fremen
communications equipment.

Isn't there always a shorter and a taller one in these types of
situations?

Thank you,

--
Don
Juho Julkunen
2018-03-08 11:43:37 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
In article <***@crcomp.net>, ***@crcomp.net says...
>
> Michael F. Stemper <***@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On 2018-03-06 07:13, Juho Julkunen wrote:
> >> In article <***@4ax.com>, jclarke.873638
> >> @gmail.com says...
> >
> >>> What "whale things"? FTL spacecraft are piloted by Guild navigators.
> >>> Apparently long term immersion in a melange-rich environoment does
> >>> things to them, but Herbert never described them as "whale things" or
> >>> to my recollection detailed what, exactly it does other than let them
> >>> see far enough ahead in time to navigate.
> >>
> >> In _Dune_, we see two Guild navigators who look just like ordinary
> >> people, and can walk about freely. Their most notable feature is the
> >> blue-on-blue eyes of a Spice addict, which they conceal with contact
> >> lenses.
> >
> > I'd like to read the text myself. I just skimmed through the book, but
> > wasn't able to find this passage. It's when the Guild meets with the
> > Padishah Emperor, right? I remember that as just being "Guild
> > representatives" rather than "Guild navigators", but my memory could
> > be going.
> >
>
> Although the novel doesn't specifically mention blue-on-blue eyes, it's
> a given for anyone who uses spice. The "whale things" only appear in

Second to last chapter, near the end:

"The taller of the two, though, held a hand to his left eye. As the
Emperor watched, someone jostled the Guildman's arm, the hand moved,
and the eye was revealed. The man had lost one of his masking contact
lenses, and the eye stared out a total blue so dark as to almost be
black."

--
Juho Julkunen
D B Davis
2018-03-10 01:46:53 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Juho Julkunen <***@hotmail.com> wrote:
> In article <***@crcomp.net>, ***@crcomp.net says...
>>
>> Michael F. Stemper <***@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > On 2018-03-06 07:13, Juho Julkunen wrote:
>> >> In article <***@4ax.com>, jclarke.873638
>> >> @gmail.com says...
>> >
>> >>> What "whale things"? FTL spacecraft are piloted by Guild navigators.
>> >>> Apparently long term immersion in a melange-rich environoment does
>> >>> things to them, but Herbert never described them as "whale things" or
>> >>> to my recollection detailed what, exactly it does other than let them
>> >>> see far enough ahead in time to navigate.
>> >>
>> >> In _Dune_, we see two Guild navigators who look just like ordinary
>> >> people, and can walk about freely. Their most notable feature is the
>> >> blue-on-blue eyes of a Spice addict, which they conceal with contact
>> >> lenses.
>> >
>> > I'd like to read the text myself. I just skimmed through the book, but
>> > wasn't able to find this passage. It's when the Guild meets with the
>> > Padishah Emperor, right? I remember that as just being "Guild
>> > representatives" rather than "Guild navigators", but my memory could
>> > be going.
>> >
>>
>> Although the novel doesn't specifically mention blue-on-blue eyes, it's
>> a given for anyone who uses spice. The "whale things" only appear in
>
> Second to last chapter, near the end:
>
> "The taller of the two, though, held a hand to his left eye. As the
> Emperor watched, someone jostled the Guildman's arm, the hand moved,
> and the eye was revealed. The man had lost one of his masking contact
> lenses, and the eye stared out a total blue so dark as to almost be
> black."
>

You are correct. That appears on page 465 of my MMPB. We learn that the
Guildmen are actually navigators on page 475, when they admit as much.
There you have it. The blue-on-blue eyes of a Spice addict with the
prescience of a navigator.
Paul's ace-in-the-hole is that he sees further into the future. He
sees the future at least up to the point where it becomes cloudy when he
fights Feyd.

Thank you,

--
Don
Michael F. Stemper
2018-03-08 23:23:51 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On 2018-03-07 21:40, D B Davis wrote:
> Michael F. Stemper <***@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On 2018-03-06 07:13, Juho Julkunen wrote:
>>> In article <***@4ax.com>, jclarke.873638
>>> @gmail.com says...
>>
>>>> What "whale things"? FTL spacecraft are piloted by Guild navigators.
>>>> Apparently long term immersion in a melange-rich environoment does
>>>> things to them, but Herbert never described them as "whale things" or
>>>> to my recollection detailed what, exactly it does other than let them
>>>> see far enough ahead in time to navigate.
>>>
>>> In _Dune_, we see two Guild navigators who look just like ordinary
>>> people, and can walk about freely. Their most notable feature is the
>>> blue-on-blue eyes of a Spice addict, which they conceal with contact
>>> lenses.
>>
>> I'd like to read the text myself. I just skimmed through the book, but
>> wasn't able to find this passage. It's when the Guild meets with the
>> Padishah Emperor, right? I remember that as just being "Guild
>> representatives" rather than "Guild navigators", but my memory could
>> be going.
>>
>
> Although the novel doesn't specifically mention blue-on-blue eyes, it's
> a given for anyone who uses spice. The "whale things" only appear in
> Dune's 1984 Hollywood treatment. The "whale things" crash diet to become
> skinny for the 2000 treatment. This excerpt begins near the bottom of
> page 475 in MMPB:
>
> "There's a massed armada of the Great Houses in space over
> Arrakis right now," the Emperor said. "I've but to say the word
> and they'll --"
> "Oh, yes," Paul said, "I almost forgot about them." He
> searched through the Emperor's suite until he saw the faces of
> the two Guildsmen, spoke aside to Gurney. "Are those the Guild
> agents, Gurney, the two fat ones dressed in gray over there?"

[...]

> "Are you mad?" the tall Guildsman demanded. He fell back half
> a step.
> "You grant that I have the power to do this thing, then?"
> Paul asked.
> The Guildsman seemed to stare into space for a moment, then:
> "Yes, you could do it, but you must not."
> "Ah-h-h," Paul said and nodded to himself. "Guild navigators,
> both of you, eh?"
> "Yes!"

That's definitive.

> Isn't there always a shorter and a taller one in these types of
> situations?
>
> Thank you,

No, thank you for taking the time to type that all in.

--
Michael F. Stemper
This sentence no verb.
Paul Colquhoun
2018-03-08 04:53:02 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On Wed, 7 Mar 2018 18:24:04 -0600, Michael F. Stemper <***@gmail.com> wrote:
| On 2018-03-06 07:13, Juho Julkunen wrote:
|> In article <***@4ax.com>, jclarke.873638
|> @gmail.com says...
|
|>> What "whale things"? FTL spacecraft are piloted by Guild navigators.
|>> Apparently long term immersion in a melange-rich environoment does
|>> things to them, but Herbert never described them as "whale things" or
|>> to my recollection detailed what, exactly it does other than let them
|>> see far enough ahead in time to navigate.
|>
|> In _Dune_, we see two Guild navigators who look just like ordinary
|> people, and can walk about freely. Their most notable feature is the
|> blue-on-blue eyes of a Spice addict, which they conceal with contact
|> lenses.
|
| I'd like to read the text myself. I just skimmed through the book, but
| wasn't able to find this passage. It's when the Guild meets with the
| Padishah Emperor, right? I remember that as just being "Guild
| representatives" rather than "Guild navigators", but my memory could
| be going.


I think that the scene is on page 441 in my paperback edition. They
are with the Emperor during the final battle when Paul uses nukes to
breach the wall and rides sandworms in to capture the Emperor's starship.


--
Reverend Paul Colquhoun, ULC. http://andor.dropbear.id.au/
Asking for technical help in newsgroups? Read this first:
http://catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html#intro
The Zygon
2018-03-07 01:04:43 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On Tuesday, March 6, 2018 at 6:30:33 AM UTC-5, J. Clarke wrote:
> On Mon, 5 Mar 2018 22:36:32 -0800 (PST), Quadibloc <***@ecn.ab.ca>
> wrote:
>
> >On Monday, March 5, 2018 at 8:01:02 PM UTC-7, J. Clarke wrote:
> >> On Mon, 5 Mar 2018 17:36:51 -0800 (PST), The Zygon
> >> <***@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >> >In the series as a whole there are other less controversially non-human species.
> >
> >> There are? Other than sandworms and the other fauna of Arrakis? I
> >> would not advise suggesting that to a Reverend Mother while she held a
> >> Gom Jabbar at your neck.
> >
> >What about those whale things that use spice so they can pilot FTL spacecraft?
>
> What "whale things"? FTL spacecraft are piloted by Guild navigators.
> Apparently long term immersion in a melange-rich environoment does
> things to them, but Herbert never described them as "whale things" or
> to my recollection detailed what, exactly it does other than let them
> see far enough ahead in time to navigate.

I think the "whale things" may be referring to one of the depictions in one of the Dune mini-series.
Michael R N Dolbear
2018-03-05 22:27:52 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
"D B Davis" wrote in message news:***@crcomp.net...

Dorothy J Heydt <***@kithrup.com> wrote:
> In article <da287717-da3f-4d29-adf5-***@googlegroups.com>,
> The Zygon <***@gmail.com> wrote:

<snip>

>>While posting in another thread, I recaled how, in my youth, I used to
>>love stories in which humans ruled the galaxy. Anyone recalls any good
>>stories of this type?

> This has been answered downthread.

"The Road Not Taken" is obviously heading that way, so how about
"Herbig-Haro"?

Both Harry Turtledove.

--
Mike D
Dimensional Traveler
2018-03-06 02:33:56 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On 3/5/2018 2:27 PM, Michael R N Dolbear wrote:
>
> "D B Davis"  wrote in message news:***@crcomp.net...
>
> Dorothy J Heydt <***@kithrup.com> wrote:
>> In article <da287717-da3f-4d29-adf5-***@googlegroups.com>,
>> The Zygon  <***@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
>>> While posting in another thread, I recaled how, in my youth,  I used to
>>> love stories in which humans ruled the galaxy.  Anyone recalls any good
>>> stories of this type?
>
>> This has been answered downthread.
>
> "The Road Not Taken" is obviously heading that way, so how about
> "Herbig-Haro"?
>
> Both Harry Turtledove.
>
There was a sequel to 'The Road Not Taken', set after humans had gone
out, conquered everything and then, because none of the aliens were
really a challenge, proceeded to have a massive civil war that destroyed
their empire. :)

--
Inquiring minds want to know while minds with a self-preservation
instinct are running screaming.
Robert Woodward
2018-03-06 05:49:32 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
In article <p7kumd$94g$***@dont-email.me>,
Dimensional Traveler <***@sonic.net> wrote:

> On 3/5/2018 2:27 PM, Michael R N Dolbear wrote:
> >
> > "D B Davis"  wrote in message news:***@crcomp.net...
> >
> > Dorothy J Heydt <***@kithrup.com> wrote:
> >> In article <da287717-da3f-4d29-adf5-***@googlegroups.com>,
> >> The Zygon  <***@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > <snip>
> >
> >>> While posting in another thread, I recaled how, in my youth,  I used to
> >>> love stories in which humans ruled the galaxy.  Anyone recalls any good
> >>> stories of this type?
> >
> >> This has been answered downthread.
> >
> > "The Road Not Taken" is obviously heading that way, so how about
> > "Herbig-Haro"?
> >
> > Both Harry Turtledove.
> >
> There was a sequel to 'The Road Not Taken', set after humans had gone
> out, conquered everything and then, because none of the aliens were
> really a challenge, proceeded to have a massive civil war that destroyed
> their empire. :)

"The Road Not Taken" was a prequel to that story (which was
"Herbig-Haro")

--
"We have advanced to new and surprising levels of bafflement."
Imperial Auditor Miles Vorkosigan describes progress in _Komarr_.
—-----------------------------------------------------
Robert Woodward ***@drizzle.com
The Zygon
2018-03-06 01:29:01 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
>
> <snip>
>
> >>While posting in another thread, I recaled how, in my youth, I used to
> >>love stories in which humans ruled the galaxy. Anyone recalls any good
> >>stories of this type?
> >
> > This has been answered downthread.
> >
>
> All of this alien talk in the group as of late made me question the
> existence of humanity in sf stories. Does humanity actually appear in
> Herbert's _Dune_ franchise or Asimov's _Foundation_ franchise? Or, are
> the characters in those stories just anthromorphic aliens?
> Early RAH seems on-the-level, so humanity no doubt appears in his
> juveniles such as _Citizen of the Galaxy_. Other than that, if the word
> "Terran" is absent from the story it seems prudent to treat the story as
> yet another anthromorphic alien account.
> My current read, the serialization of _World of Null-A_ (Van Vogt)
> is nearly completed. If my interpretation is correct, it posits a galaxy
> full of humans and humanoid null-As.
>
> Thank you,
>
> --
> Don

I like your post. Good question.
J. Clarke
2018-03-06 02:58:30 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On Mon, 5 Mar 2018 15:36:54 +0000 (UTC), D B Davis <***@crcomp.net>
wrote:

>
>Dorothy J Heydt <***@kithrup.com> wrote:
>> In article <da287717-da3f-4d29-adf5-***@googlegroups.com>,
>> The Zygon <***@gmail.com> wrote:
>
><snip>
>
>>>While posting in another thread, I recaled how, in my youth, I used to
>>>love stories in which humans ruled the galaxy. Anyone recalls any good
>>>stories of this type?
>>
>> This has been answered downthread.
>>
>
>All of this alien talk in the group as of late made me question the
>existence of humanity in sf stories. Does humanity actually appear in
>Herbert's _Dune_ franchise or Asimov's _Foundation_ franchise? Or, are
>the characters in those stories just anthromorphic aliens?

The chief commandment of the Orange Catholic Bible is "Thou shalt not
make a machine in the likeness of a human mind." The Gom Jabbar was a
test of humanity.

If the characters in the Dune novels were not human, they certainly
_believed_ that they were.

> Early RAH seems on-the-level, so humanity no doubt appears in his
>juveniles such as _Citizen of the Galaxy_. Other than that, if the word
>"Terran" is absent from the story it seems prudent to treat the story as
>yet another anthromorphic alien account.

I think one would be hard pressed to sell the idea of any Heinlein
being about "anthropomorphic aliens".

> My current read, the serialization of _World of Null-A_ (Van Vogt)
>is nearly completed. If my interpretation is correct, it posits a galaxy
>full of humans and humanoid null-As.
>
>Thank you,
The Zygon
2018-03-06 06:52:17 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
> >
> ><snip>
> >
> >>>While posting in another thread, I recaled how, in my youth, I used to
> >>>love stories in which humans ruled the galaxy. Anyone recalls any good
> >>>stories of this type?
> >>
> >> This has been answered downthread.
> >>
> >
> >All of this alien talk in the group as of late made me question the
> >existence of humanity in sf stories. Does humanity actually appear in
> >Herbert's _Dune_ franchise or Asimov's _Foundation_ franchise? Or, are
> >the characters in those stories just anthromorphic aliens?
>
> The chief commandment of the Orange Catholic Bible is "Thou shalt not
> make a machine in the likeness of a human mind." The Gom Jabbar was a
> test of humanity.
>
> If the characters in the Dune novels were not human, they certainly
> _believed_ that they were.
>
> > Early RAH seems on-the-level, so humanity no doubt appears in his
> >juveniles such as _Citizen of the Galaxy_. Other than that, if the word
> >"Terran" is absent from the story it seems prudent to treat the story as
> >yet another anthromorphic alien account.
>
> I think one would be hard pressed to sell the idea of any Heinlein
> being about "anthropomorphic aliens".
>
> > My current read, the serialization of _World of Null-A_ (Van Vogt)
> >is nearly completed. If my interpretation is correct, it posits a galaxy
> >full of humans and humanoid null-As.
> >
> >Thank you,

The Gom Jabber was not a test of humanity in a genetic sense. It was a test as to whether a person had the impulse control to act rationally in the face of a severe temptation to do otherwise. It was a test of character.
J. Clarke
2018-03-06 11:33:44 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On Mon, 5 Mar 2018 22:52:17 -0800 (PST), The Zygon
<***@gmail.com> wrote:

>
>> >
>> ><snip>
>> >
>> >>>While posting in another thread, I recaled how, in my youth, I used to
>> >>>love stories in which humans ruled the galaxy. Anyone recalls any good
>> >>>stories of this type?
>> >>
>> >> This has been answered downthread.
>> >>
>> >
>> >All of this alien talk in the group as of late made me question the
>> >existence of humanity in sf stories. Does humanity actually appear in
>> >Herbert's _Dune_ franchise or Asimov's _Foundation_ franchise? Or, are
>> >the characters in those stories just anthromorphic aliens?
>>
>> The chief commandment of the Orange Catholic Bible is "Thou shalt not
>> make a machine in the likeness of a human mind." The Gom Jabbar was a
>> test of humanity.
>>
>> If the characters in the Dune novels were not human, they certainly
>> _believed_ that they were.
>>
>> > Early RAH seems on-the-level, so humanity no doubt appears in his
>> >juveniles such as _Citizen of the Galaxy_. Other than that, if the word
>> >"Terran" is absent from the story it seems prudent to treat the story as
>> >yet another anthromorphic alien account.
>>
>> I think one would be hard pressed to sell the idea of any Heinlein
>> being about "anthropomorphic aliens".
>>
>> > My current read, the serialization of _World of Null-A_ (Van Vogt)
>> >is nearly completed. If my interpretation is correct, it posits a galaxy
>> >full of humans and humanoid null-As.
>> >
>> >Thank you,
>
>The Gom Jabber was not a test of humanity in a genetic sense. It was a test as to whether a person had the impulse control to act rationally in the face of a severe temptation to do otherwise. It was a test of character.

That is NOT what the Bene Gesserit say when administering it. You can
argue until you are blue in the face but that does not alter the fact
as presented in the books.

Look, if you want books about nonhumans there are plenty out
there--C.J. Cherryh among others has produced quite a lot of them, but
arguing that characters who the author has stated, in the text of the
books, are "human" is pointless and makes you look like a troll.
h***@gmail.com
2018-03-06 13:04:22 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On Tuesday, March 6, 2018 at 10:33:49 PM UTC+11, J. Clarke wrote:
> On Mon, 5 Mar 2018 22:52:17 -0800 (PST), The Zygon
> <***@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >
> >> >
> >> ><snip>
> >> >
> >> >>>While posting in another thread, I recaled how, in my youth, I used to
> >> >>>love stories in which humans ruled the galaxy. Anyone recalls any good
> >> >>>stories of this type?
> >> >>
> >> >> This has been answered downthread.
> >> >>
> >> >
> >> >All of this alien talk in the group as of late made me question the
> >> >existence of humanity in sf stories. Does humanity actually appear in
> >> >Herbert's _Dune_ franchise or Asimov's _Foundation_ franchise? Or, are
> >> >the characters in those stories just anthromorphic aliens?
> >>
> >> The chief commandment of the Orange Catholic Bible is "Thou shalt not
> >> make a machine in the likeness of a human mind." The Gom Jabbar was a
> >> test of humanity.
> >>
> >> If the characters in the Dune novels were not human, they certainly
> >> _believed_ that they were.
> >>
> >> > Early RAH seems on-the-level, so humanity no doubt appears in his
> >> >juveniles such as _Citizen of the Galaxy_. Other than that, if the word
> >> >"Terran" is absent from the story it seems prudent to treat the story as
> >> >yet another anthromorphic alien account.
> >>
> >> I think one would be hard pressed to sell the idea of any Heinlein
> >> being about "anthropomorphic aliens".
> >>
> >> > My current read, the serialization of _World of Null-A_ (Van Vogt)
> >> >is nearly completed. If my interpretation is correct, it posits a galaxy
> >> >full of humans and humanoid null-As.
> >> >
> >> >Thank you,
> >
> >The Gom Jabber was not a test of humanity in a genetic sense. It was a test as to whether a person had the impulse control to act rationally in the face of a severe temptation to do otherwise. It was a test of character.
>
> That is NOT what the Bene Gesserit say when administering it. You can
> argue until you are blue in the face but that does not alter the fact
> as presented in the books.
>
You really might want to reread the books if you think that test was determining if somebody was genetically human
The Zygon
2018-03-07 01:12:46 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On Tuesday, March 6, 2018 at 8:04:29 AM UTC-5, ***@gmail.com wrote:
> On Tuesday, March 6, 2018 at 10:33:49 PM UTC+11, J. Clarke wrote:
> > On Mon, 5 Mar 2018 22:52:17 -0800 (PST), The Zygon
> > <***@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > >
> > >> >
> > >> ><snip>
> > >> >
> > >> >>>While posting in another thread, I recaled how, in my youth, I used to
> > >> >>>love stories in which humans ruled the galaxy. Anyone recalls any good
> > >> >>>stories of this type?
> > >> >>
> > >> >> This has been answered downthread.
> > >> >>
> > >> >
> > >> >All of this alien talk in the group as of late made me question the
> > >> >existence of humanity in sf stories. Does humanity actually appear in
> > >> >Herbert's _Dune_ franchise or Asimov's _Foundation_ franchise? Or, are
> > >> >the characters in those stories just anthromorphic aliens?
> > >>
> > >> The chief commandment of the Orange Catholic Bible is "Thou shalt not
> > >> make a machine in the likeness of a human mind." The Gom Jabbar was a
> > >> test of humanity.
> > >>
> > >> If the characters in the Dune novels were not human, they certainly
> > >> _believed_ that they were.
> > >>
> > >> > Early RAH seems on-the-level, so humanity no doubt appears in his
> > >> >juveniles such as _Citizen of the Galaxy_. Other than that, if the word
> > >> >"Terran" is absent from the story it seems prudent to treat the story as
> > >> >yet another anthromorphic alien account.
> > >>
> > >> I think one would be hard pressed to sell the idea of any Heinlein
> > >> being about "anthropomorphic aliens".
> > >>
> > >> > My current read, the serialization of _World of Null-A_ (Van Vogt)
> > >> >is nearly completed. If my interpretation is correct, it posits a galaxy
> > >> >full of humans and humanoid null-As.
> > >> >
> > >> >Thank you,
> > >
> > >The Gom Jabber was not a test of humanity in a genetic sense. It was a test as to whether a person had the impulse control to act rationally in the face of a severe temptation to do otherwise. It was a test of character.
> >
> > That is NOT what the Bene Gesserit say when administering it. You can
> > argue until you are blue in the face but that does not alter the fact
> > as presented in the books.
> >
> You really might want to reread the books if you think that test was determining if somebody was genetically human

Do you recall that "the beast Raban" was described by the Bene Gesserit as not being human in the sense that the God Jabbar tests? He was clearly human in the genetic sense.
Dimensional Traveler
2018-03-07 02:52:20 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On 3/6/2018 5:12 PM, The Zygon wrote:
> On Tuesday, March 6, 2018 at 8:04:29 AM UTC-5, ***@gmail.com wrote:
>> On Tuesday, March 6, 2018 at 10:33:49 PM UTC+11, J. Clarke wrote:
>>> On Mon, 5 Mar 2018 22:52:17 -0800 (PST), The Zygon
>>> <***@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> <snip>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> While posting in another thread, I recaled how, in my youth, I used to
>>>>>>>> love stories in which humans ruled the galaxy. Anyone recalls any good
>>>>>>>> stories of this type?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> This has been answered downthread.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> All of this alien talk in the group as of late made me question the
>>>>>> existence of humanity in sf stories. Does humanity actually appear in
>>>>>> Herbert's _Dune_ franchise or Asimov's _Foundation_ franchise? Or, are
>>>>>> the characters in those stories just anthromorphic aliens?
>>>>>
>>>>> The chief commandment of the Orange Catholic Bible is "Thou shalt not
>>>>> make a machine in the likeness of a human mind." The Gom Jabbar was a
>>>>> test of humanity.
>>>>>
>>>>> If the characters in the Dune novels were not human, they certainly
>>>>> _believed_ that they were.
>>>>>
>>>>>> Early RAH seems on-the-level, so humanity no doubt appears in his
>>>>>> juveniles such as _Citizen of the Galaxy_. Other than that, if the word
>>>>>> "Terran" is absent from the story it seems prudent to treat the story as
>>>>>> yet another anthromorphic alien account.
>>>>>
>>>>> I think one would be hard pressed to sell the idea of any Heinlein
>>>>> being about "anthropomorphic aliens".
>>>>>
>>>>>> My current read, the serialization of _World of Null-A_ (Van Vogt)
>>>>>> is nearly completed. If my interpretation is correct, it posits a galaxy
>>>>>> full of humans and humanoid null-As.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thank you,
>>>>
>>>> The Gom Jabber was not a test of humanity in a genetic sense. It was a test as to whether a person had the impulse control to act rationally in the face of a severe temptation to do otherwise. It was a test of character.
>>>
>>> That is NOT what the Bene Gesserit say when administering it. You can
>>> argue until you are blue in the face but that does not alter the fact
>>> as presented in the books.
>>>
>> You really might want to reread the books if you think that test was determining if somebody was genetically human
>
> Do you recall that "the beast Raban" was described by the Bene Gesserit as not being human in the sense that the God Jabbar tests? He was clearly human in the genetic sense.
>
It helps if you remember that the Bene Gesserit were trying to breed a
superior human with messianic, religious goals. The Gom Jabber was part
of weeding out failures in that program. So the BG's definition of
"human" in that context is suspect.

--
Inquiring minds want to know while minds with a self-preservation
instinct are running screaming.
Robert Carnegie
2018-03-07 03:41:37 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On Wednesday, 7 March 2018 02:52:15 UTC, Dimensional Traveler wrote:
> On 3/6/2018 5:12 PM, The Zygon wrote:
> > On Tuesday, March 6, 2018 at 8:04:29 AM UTC-5, ***@gmail.com wrote:
> >> On Tuesday, March 6, 2018 at 10:33:49 PM UTC+11, J. Clarke wrote:
> >>> On Mon, 5 Mar 2018 22:52:17 -0800 (PST), The Zygon
> >>> <***@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> <snip>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> While posting in another thread, I recaled how, in my youth, I used to
> >>>>>>>> love stories in which humans ruled the galaxy. Anyone recalls any good
> >>>>>>>> stories of this type?
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> This has been answered downthread.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> All of this alien talk in the group as of late made me question the
> >>>>>> existence of humanity in sf stories. Does humanity actually appear in
> >>>>>> Herbert's _Dune_ franchise or Asimov's _Foundation_ franchise? Or, are
> >>>>>> the characters in those stories just anthromorphic aliens?
> >>>>>
> >>>>> The chief commandment of the Orange Catholic Bible is "Thou shalt not
> >>>>> make a machine in the likeness of a human mind." The Gom Jabbar was a
> >>>>> test of humanity.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> If the characters in the Dune novels were not human, they certainly
> >>>>> _believed_ that they were.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> Early RAH seems on-the-level, so humanity no doubt appears in his
> >>>>>> juveniles such as _Citizen of the Galaxy_. Other than that, if the word
> >>>>>> "Terran" is absent from the story it seems prudent to treat the story as
> >>>>>> yet another anthromorphic alien account.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I think one would be hard pressed to sell the idea of any Heinlein
> >>>>> being about "anthropomorphic aliens".
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> My current read, the serialization of _World of Null-A_ (Van Vogt)
> >>>>>> is nearly completed. If my interpretation is correct, it posits a galaxy
> >>>>>> full of humans and humanoid null-As.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Thank you,
> >>>>
> >>>> The Gom Jabber was not a test of humanity in a genetic sense. It was a test as to whether a person had the impulse control to act rationally in the face of a severe temptation to do otherwise. It was a test of character.
> >>>
> >>> That is NOT what the Bene Gesserit say when administering it. You can
> >>> argue until you are blue in the face but that does not alter the fact
> >>> as presented in the books.
> >>>
> >> You really might want to reread the books if you think that test was determining if somebody was genetically human
> >
> > Do you recall that "the beast Raban" was described by the Bene Gesserit as not being human in the sense that the God Jabbar tests? He was clearly human in the genetic sense.
> >
> It helps if you remember that the Bene Gesserit were trying to breed a
> superior human with messianic, religious goals. The Gom Jabber was part
> of weeding out failures in that program. So the BG's definition of
> "human" in that context is suspect.

...in that many of us would fail their test. They're distinguishing
human beings from mere animals.

<http://dune.wikia.com/wiki/Gom_Jabbar> mostly contradicts both
my recollection that the name is "gom jabbar" in lower case, and
my supposition that the name meant a thing to jab somebody with!
Peter Trei
2018-03-08 15:31:01 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On Tuesday, March 6, 2018 at 10:41:40 PM UTC-5, Robert Carnegie wrote:
> On Wednesday, 7 March 2018 02:52:15 UTC, Dimensional Traveler wrote:
> > On 3/6/2018 5:12 PM, The Zygon wrote:
> > > On Tuesday, March 6, 2018 at 8:04:29 AM UTC-5, ***@gmail.com wrote:
> > >> On Tuesday, March 6, 2018 at 10:33:49 PM UTC+11, J. Clarke wrote:
> > >>> On Mon, 5 Mar 2018 22:52:17 -0800 (PST), The Zygon
> > >>> <***@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> <snip>
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>> While posting in another thread, I recaled how, in my youth, I used to
> > >>>>>>>> love stories in which humans ruled the galaxy. Anyone recalls any good
> > >>>>>>>> stories of this type?
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> This has been answered downthread.
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> All of this alien talk in the group as of late made me question the
> > >>>>>> existence of humanity in sf stories. Does humanity actually appear in
> > >>>>>> Herbert's _Dune_ franchise or Asimov's _Foundation_ franchise? Or, are
> > >>>>>> the characters in those stories just anthromorphic aliens?
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> The chief commandment of the Orange Catholic Bible is "Thou shalt not
> > >>>>> make a machine in the likeness of a human mind." The Gom Jabbar was a
> > >>>>> test of humanity.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> If the characters in the Dune novels were not human, they certainly
> > >>>>> _believed_ that they were.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>> Early RAH seems on-the-level, so humanity no doubt appears in his
> > >>>>>> juveniles such as _Citizen of the Galaxy_. Other than that, if the word
> > >>>>>> "Terran" is absent from the story it seems prudent to treat the story as
> > >>>>>> yet another anthromorphic alien account.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> I think one would be hard pressed to sell the idea of any Heinlein
> > >>>>> being about "anthropomorphic aliens".
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>> My current read, the serialization of _World of Null-A_ (Van Vogt)
> > >>>>>> is nearly completed. If my interpretation is correct, it posits a galaxy
> > >>>>>> full of humans and humanoid null-As.
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> Thank you,
> > >>>>
> > >>>> The Gom Jabber was not a test of humanity in a genetic sense. It was a test as to whether a person had the impulse control to act rationally in the face of a severe temptation to do otherwise. It was a test of character.
> > >>>
> > >>> That is NOT what the Bene Gesserit say when administering it. You can
> > >>> argue until you are blue in the face but that does not alter the fact
> > >>> as presented in the books.
> > >>>
> > >> You really might want to reread the books if you think that test was determining if somebody was genetically human
> > >
> > > Do you recall that "the beast Raban" was described by the Bene Gesserit as not being human in the sense that the God Jabbar tests? He was clearly human in the genetic sense.
> > >
> > It helps if you remember that the Bene Gesserit were trying to breed a
> > superior human with messianic, religious goals. The Gom Jabber was part
> > of weeding out failures in that program. So the BG's definition of
> > "human" in that context is suspect.
>
> ...in that many of us would fail their test. They're distinguishing
> human beings from mere animals.
>
> <http://dune.wikia.com/wiki/Gom_Jabbar> mostly contradicts both
> my recollection that the name is "gom jabbar" in lower case, and
> my supposition that the name meant a thing to jab somebody with!

[spoilers below]

Just to be picky, the Gom Jabbar was simply a tool which killed people.
One use was as the penalty for failing the BG 'test of humanity' which
was a box which cause pain to an inserted hand.

The GJ is used, without the box, by Alia to kill Baron Harkonnen.

pt
The Zygon
2018-03-09 03:57:47 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On Thursday, March 8, 2018 at 10:31:05 AM UTC-5, Peter Trei wrote:
> On Tuesday, March 6, 2018 at 10:41:40 PM UTC-5, Robert Carnegie wrote:
> > On Wednesday, 7 March 2018 02:52:15 UTC, Dimensional Traveler wrote:
> > > On 3/6/2018 5:12 PM, The Zygon wrote:
> > > > On Tuesday, March 6, 2018 at 8:04:29 AM UTC-5, ***@gmail.com wrote:
> > > >> On Tuesday, March 6, 2018 at 10:33:49 PM UTC+11, J. Clarke wrote:
> > > >>> On Mon, 5 Mar 2018 22:52:17 -0800 (PST), The Zygon
> > > >>> <***@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > >>>
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>> <snip>
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>>> While posting in another thread, I recaled how, in my youth, I used to
> > > >>>>>>>> love stories in which humans ruled the galaxy. Anyone recalls any good
> > > >>>>>>>> stories of this type?
> > > >>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>> This has been answered downthread.
> > > >>>>>>>
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>> All of this alien talk in the group as of late made me question the
> > > >>>>>> existence of humanity in sf stories. Does humanity actually appear in
> > > >>>>>> Herbert's _Dune_ franchise or Asimov's _Foundation_ franchise? Or, are
> > > >>>>>> the characters in those stories just anthromorphic aliens?
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>> The chief commandment of the Orange Catholic Bible is "Thou shalt not
> > > >>>>> make a machine in the likeness of a human mind." The Gom Jabbar was a
> > > >>>>> test of humanity.
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>> If the characters in the Dune novels were not human, they certainly
> > > >>>>> _believed_ that they were.
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>>> Early RAH seems on-the-level, so humanity no doubt appears in his
> > > >>>>>> juveniles such as _Citizen of the Galaxy_. Other than that, if the word
> > > >>>>>> "Terran" is absent from the story it seems prudent to treat the story as
> > > >>>>>> yet another anthromorphic alien account.
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>> I think one would be hard pressed to sell the idea of any Heinlein
> > > >>>>> being about "anthropomorphic aliens".
> > > >>>>>
> > > >>>>>> My current read, the serialization of _World of Null-A_ (Van Vogt)
> > > >>>>>> is nearly completed. If my interpretation is correct, it posits a galaxy
> > > >>>>>> full of humans and humanoid null-As.
> > > >>>>>>
> > > >>>>>> Thank you,
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> The Gom Jabber was not a test of humanity in a genetic sense. It was a test as to whether a person had the impulse control to act rationally in the face of a severe temptation to do otherwise. It was a test of character.
> > > >>>
> > > >>> That is NOT what the Bene Gesserit say when administering it. You can
> > > >>> argue until you are blue in the face but that does not alter the fact
> > > >>> as presented in the books.
> > > >>>
> > > >> You really might want to reread the books if you think that test was determining if somebody was genetically human
> > > >
> > > > Do you recall that "the beast Raban" was described by the Bene Gesserit as not being human in the sense that the God Jabbar tests? He was clearly human in the genetic sense.
> > > >
> > > It helps if you remember that the Bene Gesserit were trying to breed a
> > > superior human with messianic, religious goals. The Gom Jabber was part
> > > of weeding out failures in that program. So the BG's definition of
> > > "human" in that context is suspect.
> >
> > ...in that many of us would fail their test. They're distinguishing
> > human beings from mere animals.
> >
> > <http://dune.wikia.com/wiki/Gom_Jabbar> mostly contradicts both
> > my recollection that the name is "gom jabbar" in lower case, and
> > my supposition that the name meant a thing to jab somebody with!
>
> [spoilers below]
>
> Just to be picky, the Gom Jabbar was simply a tool which killed people.
> One use was as the penalty for failing the BG 'test of humanity' which
> was a box which cause pain to an inserted hand.
>
> The GJ is used, without the box, by Alia to kill Baron Harkonnen.
>
> pt

Correct. The test was about how he responded to the pain.
J. Clarke
2018-03-07 03:04:01 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On Tue, 6 Mar 2018 17:12:46 -0800 (PST), The Zygon
<***@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Tuesday, March 6, 2018 at 8:04:29 AM UTC-5, ***@gmail.com wrote:
>> On Tuesday, March 6, 2018 at 10:33:49 PM UTC+11, J. Clarke wrote:
>> > On Mon, 5 Mar 2018 22:52:17 -0800 (PST), The Zygon
>> > <***@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >
>> > >
>> > >> >
>> > >> ><snip>
>> > >> >
>> > >> >>>While posting in another thread, I recaled how, in my youth, I used to
>> > >> >>>love stories in which humans ruled the galaxy. Anyone recalls any good
>> > >> >>>stories of this type?
>> > >> >>
>> > >> >> This has been answered downthread.
>> > >> >>
>> > >> >
>> > >> >All of this alien talk in the group as of late made me question the
>> > >> >existence of humanity in sf stories. Does humanity actually appear in
>> > >> >Herbert's _Dune_ franchise or Asimov's _Foundation_ franchise? Or, are
>> > >> >the characters in those stories just anthromorphic aliens?
>> > >>
>> > >> The chief commandment of the Orange Catholic Bible is "Thou shalt not
>> > >> make a machine in the likeness of a human mind." The Gom Jabbar was a
>> > >> test of humanity.
>> > >>
>> > >> If the characters in the Dune novels were not human, they certainly
>> > >> _believed_ that they were.
>> > >>
>> > >> > Early RAH seems on-the-level, so humanity no doubt appears in his
>> > >> >juveniles such as _Citizen of the Galaxy_. Other than that, if the word
>> > >> >"Terran" is absent from the story it seems prudent to treat the story as
>> > >> >yet another anthromorphic alien account.
>> > >>
>> > >> I think one would be hard pressed to sell the idea of any Heinlein
>> > >> being about "anthropomorphic aliens".
>> > >>
>> > >> > My current read, the serialization of _World of Null-A_ (Van Vogt)
>> > >> >is nearly completed. If my interpretation is correct, it posits a galaxy
>> > >> >full of humans and humanoid null-As.
>> > >> >
>> > >> >Thank you,
>> > >
>> > >The Gom Jabber was not a test of humanity in a genetic sense. It was a test as to whether a person had the impulse control to act rationally in the face of a severe temptation to do otherwise. It was a test of character.
>> >
>> > That is NOT what the Bene Gesserit say when administering it. You can
>> > argue until you are blue in the face but that does not alter the fact
>> > as presented in the books.
>> >
>> You really might want to reread the books if you think that test was determining if somebody was genetically human
>
>Do you recall that "the beast Raban" was described by the Bene Gesserit as not being human in the sense that the God Jabbar tests? He was clearly human in the genetic sense.

So you want to define "human" in a way different from the one that the
author of the book defined it? Maybe you should try writing your own
books in which you can define terms any way you want to then.
Bill Dugan
2018-03-07 14:55:10 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On Tue, 06 Mar 2018 22:04:01 -0500, J. Clarke
<***@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Tue, 6 Mar 2018 17:12:46 -0800 (PST), The Zygon
><***@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>On Tuesday, March 6, 2018 at 8:04:29 AM UTC-5, ***@gmail.com wrote:
>>> On Tuesday, March 6, 2018 at 10:33:49 PM UTC+11, J. Clarke wrote:
>>> > On Mon, 5 Mar 2018 22:52:17 -0800 (PST), The Zygon
>>> > <***@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> >
>>> > >
>>> > >> >
>>> > >> ><snip>
>>> > >> >
>>> > >> >>>While posting in another thread, I recaled how, in my youth, I used to
>>> > >> >>>love stories in which humans ruled the galaxy. Anyone recalls any good
>>> > >> >>>stories of this type?
>>> > >> >>
>>> > >> >> This has been answered downthread.
>>> > >> >>
>>> > >> >
>>> > >> >All of this alien talk in the group as of late made me question the
>>> > >> >existence of humanity in sf stories. Does humanity actually appear in
>>> > >> >Herbert's _Dune_ franchise or Asimov's _Foundation_ franchise? Or, are
>>> > >> >the characters in those stories just anthromorphic aliens?
>>> > >>
>>> > >> The chief commandment of the Orange Catholic Bible is "Thou shalt not
>>> > >> make a machine in the likeness of a human mind." The Gom Jabbar was a
>>> > >> test of humanity.
>>> > >>
>>> > >> If the characters in the Dune novels were not human, they certainly
>>> > >> _believed_ that they were.
>>> > >>
>>> > >> > Early RAH seems on-the-level, so humanity no doubt appears in his
>>> > >> >juveniles such as _Citizen of the Galaxy_. Other than that, if the word
>>> > >> >"Terran" is absent from the story it seems prudent to treat the story as
>>> > >> >yet another anthromorphic alien account.
>>> > >>
>>> > >> I think one would be hard pressed to sell the idea of any Heinlein
>>> > >> being about "anthropomorphic aliens".
>>> > >>
>>> > >> > My current read, the serialization of _World of Null-A_ (Van Vogt)
>>> > >> >is nearly completed. If my interpretation is correct, it posits a galaxy
>>> > >> >full of humans and humanoid null-As.
>>> > >> >
>>> > >> >Thank you,
>>> > >
>>> > >The Gom Jabber was not a test of humanity in a genetic sense. It was a test as to whether a person had the impulse control to act rationally in the face of a severe temptation to do otherwise. It was a test of character.
>>> >
>>> > That is NOT what the Bene Gesserit say when administering it. You can
>>> > argue until you are blue in the face but that does not alter the fact
>>> > as presented in the books.
>>> >
>>> You really might want to reread the books if you think that test was determining if somebody was genetically human
>>
>>Do you recall that "the beast Raban" was described by the Bene Gesserit as not being human in the sense that the God Jabbar tests? He was clearly human in the genetic sense.
>
>So you want to define "human" in a way different from the one that the
>author of the book defined it? Maybe you should try writing your own
>books in which you can define terms any way you want to then.

He's defining "human" in a way different from the one the Bene
Gesserit use. It's not clear they speak for the author.
Dorothy J Heydt
2018-03-07 14:40:10 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
In article <dbb43af9-4613-403a-8d11-***@googlegroups.com>,
The Zygon <***@gmail.com> wrote:
>On Tuesday, March 6, 2018 at 8:04:29 AM UTC-5, ***@gmail.com wrote:
>> On Tuesday, March 6, 2018 at 10:33:49 PM UTC+11, J. Clarke wrote:
>> > On Mon, 5 Mar 2018 22:52:17 -0800 (PST), The Zygon
>> > <***@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >
>> > >
>> > >> >
>> > >> ><snip>
>> > >> >
>> > >> >>>While posting in another thread, I recaled how, in my youth,
>I used to
>> > >> >>>love stories in which humans ruled the galaxy. Anyone recalls
>any good
>> > >> >>>stories of this type?
>> > >> >>
>> > >> >> This has been answered downthread.
>> > >> >>
>> > >> >
>> > >> >All of this alien talk in the group as of late made me question the
>> > >> >existence of humanity in sf stories. Does humanity actually appear in
>> > >> >Herbert's _Dune_ franchise or Asimov's _Foundation_ franchise? Or, are
>> > >> >the characters in those stories just anthromorphic aliens?
>> > >>
>> > >> The chief commandment of the Orange Catholic Bible is "Thou shalt not
>> > >> make a machine in the likeness of a human mind." The Gom Jabbar was a
>> > >> test of humanity.
>> > >>
>> > >> If the characters in the Dune novels were not human, they certainly
>> > >> _believed_ that they were.
>> > >>
>> > >> > Early RAH seems on-the-level, so humanity no doubt appears in his
>> > >> >juveniles such as _Citizen of the Galaxy_. Other than that, if the word
>> > >> >"Terran" is absent from the story it seems prudent to treat the story as
>> > >> >yet another anthromorphic alien account.
>> > >>
>> > >> I think one would be hard pressed to sell the idea of any Heinlein
>> > >> being about "anthropomorphic aliens".
>> > >>
>> > >> > My current read, the serialization of _World of Null-A_ (Van Vogt)
>> > >> >is nearly completed. If my interpretation is correct, it posits a galaxy
>> > >> >full of humans and humanoid null-As.
>> > >> >
>> > >> >Thank you,
>> > >
>> > >The Gom Jabber was not a test of humanity in a genetic sense. It
>was a test as to whether a person had the impulse control to act
>rationally in the face of a severe temptation to do otherwise. It was a
>test of character.
>> >
>> > That is NOT what the Bene Gesserit say when administering it. You can
>> > argue until you are blue in the face but that does not alter the fact
>> > as presented in the books.
>> >
>> You really might want to reread the books if you think that test was
>determining if somebody was genetically human
>
>Do you recall that "the beast Raban" was described by the Bene Gesserit
>as not being human in the sense that the God Jabbar tests? He was
>clearly human in the genetic sense.


You have to remember that _Dune_ was one of those stories that
somebody tailored to fit Campbell's whims. He had written an
editorial (or several) about how many traditional coming-of-age
rituals were designed to test whether a child was human enough to
be allowed to become an adult. They all involved enduring
something that could kill you. Circumcision as an adult threatens
your ability to reproduce. Tattooing punctures your skin and
risks infection. Filing down your teeth to sharp points risks
tooth loss and inability to eat. Et cetera. So Herbert put in
the gom jabbar because he thought Campbell would like it.

--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
D B Davis
2018-03-08 04:37:48 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Dorothy J Heydt <***@kithrup.com> wrote:
> In article <dbb43af9-4613-403a-8d11-***@googlegroups.com>,
> The Zygon <***@gmail.com> wrote:
>>On Tuesday, March 6, 2018 at 8:04:29 AM UTC-5, ***@gmail.com wrote:
>>> On Tuesday, March 6, 2018 at 10:33:49 PM UTC+11, J. Clarke wrote:
>>> > On Mon, 5 Mar 2018 22:52:17 -0800 (PST), The Zygon
>>> > <***@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> >
>>> > >
>>> > >> >
>>> > >> ><snip>
>>> > >> >
>>> > >> >>>While posting in another thread, I recaled how, in my youth,
>>I used to
>>> > >> >>>love stories in which humans ruled the galaxy. Anyone recalls
>>any good
>>> > >> >>>stories of this type?
>>> > >> >>
>>> > >> >> This has been answered downthread.
>>> > >> >>
>>> > >> >
>>> > >> >All of this alien talk in the group as of late made me question the
>>> > >> >existence of humanity in sf stories. Does humanity actually appear in
>>> > >> >Herbert's _Dune_ franchise or Asimov's _Foundation_ franchise? Or, are
>>> > >> >the characters in those stories just anthromorphic aliens?
>>> > >>
>>> > >> The chief commandment of the Orange Catholic Bible is "Thou shalt not
>>> > >> make a machine in the likeness of a human mind." The Gom Jabbar was a
>>> > >> test of humanity.
>>> > >>
>>> > >> If the characters in the Dune novels were not human, they certainly
>>> > >> _believed_ that they were.
>>> > >>
>>> > >> > Early RAH seems on-the-level, so humanity no doubt appears in his
>>> > >> >juveniles such as _Citizen of the Galaxy_. Other than that, if the word
>>> > >> >"Terran" is absent from the story it seems prudent to treat the story as
>>> > >> >yet another anthromorphic alien account.
>>> > >>
>>> > >> I think one would be hard pressed to sell the idea of any Heinlein
>>> > >> being about "anthropomorphic aliens".
>>> > >>
>>> > >> > My current read, the serialization of _World of Null-A_ (Van Vogt)
>>> > >> >is nearly completed. If my interpretation is correct, it posits a galaxy
>>> > >> >full of humans and humanoid null-As.
>>> > >> >
>>> > >> >Thank you,
>>> > >
>>> > >The Gom Jabber was not a test of humanity in a genetic sense. It
>>was a test as to whether a person had the impulse control to act
>>rationally in the face of a severe temptation to do otherwise. It was a
>>test of character.
>>> >
>>> > That is NOT what the Bene Gesserit say when administering it. You can
>>> > argue until you are blue in the face but that does not alter the fact
>>> > as presented in the books.
>>> >
>>> You really might want to reread the books if you think that test was
>>determining if somebody was genetically human
>>
>>Do you recall that "the beast Raban" was described by the Bene Gesserit
>>as not being human in the sense that the God Jabbar tests? He was
>>clearly human in the genetic sense.
>
>
> You have to remember that _Dune_ was one of those stories that
> somebody tailored to fit Campbell's whims. He had written an
> editorial (or several) about how many traditional coming-of-age
> rituals were designed to test whether a child was human enough to
> be allowed to become an adult. They all involved enduring
> something that could kill you. Circumcision as an adult threatens
> your ability to reproduce. Tattooing punctures your skin and
> risks infection. Filing down your teeth to sharp points risks
> tooth loss and inability to eat. Et cetera. So Herbert put in
> the gom jabbar because he thought Campbell would like it.
>

Here's a copy-and-paste from a PDF. (This thread exemplifies why both a
print and an ebook version of the same story works best for me.) This
excerpt appears on page 9 of my MMPB:

"What's in the box?"
"Pain."
He felt increased tingling in his hand, pressed his lips
tightly together. How could this be a test? he wondered. The
tingling became an itch.
The old woman said; "You've heard of animals chewing off a
leg to escape a trap? There's an animal kind of trick. A human
would remain in the trap, endure the pain, feigning death that
he might kill the trapper and remove a threat to his kind."
The itch became the faintest burning. "Why are you doing this?"
he demanded.
"To determine if you're human. Be silent."

During my own modest career as a professional writer my editor, or
rather my editor's whims, the type of story s/he was likely to buy, was
always uppermost in my mind. That's the way of it when you will write
for food and you're desperate for dough.
Did Campbell, perchance, ever say anything about testing our own
politicians with a box of pain? You know, just in case David Icke is
correct? (Among a great many other things, Icke outed the Queen Mother
as "seriously reptilian.")

Thank you,

--
Don
The Zygon
2018-03-07 01:09:14 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
>
> >
> >> >
> >> ><snip>
> >> >
> >> >>>While posting in another thread, I recaled how, in my youth, I used to
> >> >>>love stories in which humans ruled the galaxy. Anyone recalls any good
> >> >>>stories of this type?
> >> >>
> >> >> This has been answered downthread.
> >> >>
> >> >
> >> >All of this alien talk in the group as of late made me question the
> >> >existence of humanity in sf stories. Does humanity actually appear in
> >> >Herbert's _Dune_ franchise or Asimov's _Foundation_ franchise? Or, are
> >> >the characters in those stories just anthromorphic aliens?
> >>
> >> The chief commandment of the Orange Catholic Bible is "Thou shalt not
> >> make a machine in the likeness of a human mind." The Gom Jabbar was a
> >> test of humanity.
> >>
> >> If the characters in the Dune novels were not human, they certainly
> >> _believed_ that they were.
> >>
> >> > Early RAH seems on-the-level, so humanity no doubt appears in his
> >> >juveniles such as _Citizen of the Galaxy_. Other than that, if the word
> >> >"Terran" is absent from the story it seems prudent to treat the story as
> >> >yet another anthromorphic alien account.
> >>
> >> I think one would be hard pressed to sell the idea of any Heinlein
> >> being about "anthropomorphic aliens".
> >>
> >> > My current read, the serialization of _World of Null-A_ (Van Vogt)
> >> >is nearly completed. If my interpretation is correct, it posits a galaxy
> >> >full of humans and humanoid null-As.
> >> >
> >> >Thank you,
> >
> >The Gom Jabber was not a test of humanity in a genetic sense. It was a test as to whether a person had the impulse control to act rationally in the face of a severe temptation to do otherwise. It was a test of character.
>
> That is NOT what the Bene Gesserit say when administering it. You can
> argue until you are blue in the face but that does not alter the fact
> as presented in the books.
>
> Look, if you want books about nonhumans there are plenty out
> there--C.J. Cherryh among others has produced quite a lot of them, but
> arguing that characters who the author has stated, in the text of the
> books, are "human" is pointless and makes you look like a troll.

C J Cherryh is my favorite portrayer of alien psychologies. She has great power to evoke alien and she quite cleverly does not always resolve the incomprehensible elements in her stories. She hints at things and leaves it to the imagination of the reader to fill in a reality behind the hint.
The Zygon
2018-03-08 00:52:43 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On Tuesday, March 6, 2018 at 6:33:49 AM UTC-5, J. Clarke wrote:
> On Mon, 5 Mar 2018 22:52:17 -0800 (PST), The Zygon
> <***@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >
> >> >
> >> ><snip>
> >> >
> >> >>>While posting in another thread, I recaled how, in my youth, I used to
> >> >>>love stories in which humans ruled the galaxy. Anyone recalls any good
> >> >>>stories of this type?
> >> >>
> >> >> This has been answered downthread.
> >> >>
> >> >
> >> >All of this alien talk in the group as of late made me question the
> >> >existence of humanity in sf stories. Does humanity actually appear in
> >> >Herbert's _Dune_ franchise or Asimov's _Foundation_ franchise? Or, are
> >> >the characters in those stories just anthromorphic aliens?
> >>
> >> The chief commandment of the Orange Catholic Bible is "Thou shalt not
> >> make a machine in the likeness of a human mind." The Gom Jabbar was a
> >> test of humanity.
> >>
> >> If the characters in the Dune novels were not human, they certainly
> >> _believed_ that they were.
> >>
> >> > Early RAH seems on-the-level, so humanity no doubt appears in his
> >> >juveniles such as _Citizen of the Galaxy_. Other than that, if the word
> >> >"Terran" is absent from the story it seems prudent to treat the story as
> >> >yet another anthromorphic alien account.
> >>
> >> I think one would be hard pressed to sell the idea of any Heinlein
> >> being about "anthropomorphic aliens".
> >>
> >> > My current read, the serialization of _World of Null-A_ (Van Vogt)
> >> >is nearly completed. If my interpretation is correct, it posits a galaxy
> >> >full of humans and humanoid null-As.
> >> >
> >> >Thank you,
> >
> >The Gom Jabber was not a test of humanity in a genetic sense. It was a test as to whether a person had the impulse control to act rationally in the face of a severe temptation to do otherwise. It was a test of character.
>
> That is NOT what the Bene Gesserit say when administering it. You can
> argue until you are blue in the face but that does not alter the fact
> as presented in the books.
>
> Look, if you want books about nonhumans there are plenty out
> there--C.J. Cherryh among others has produced quite a lot of them, but
> arguing that characters who the author has stated, in the text of the
> books, are "human" is pointless and makes you look like a troll.

Paul was tested. They knew both his mother and father, who were both human. Do you imagine that they thought that some alien was substituted for the human child?
J. Clarke
2018-03-08 02:38:12 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On Wed, 7 Mar 2018 16:52:43 -0800 (PST), The Zygon
<***@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Tuesday, March 6, 2018 at 6:33:49 AM UTC-5, J. Clarke wrote:
>> On Mon, 5 Mar 2018 22:52:17 -0800 (PST), The Zygon
>> <***@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> >
>> >> >
>> >> ><snip>
>> >> >
>> >> >>>While posting in another thread, I recaled how, in my youth, I used to
>> >> >>>love stories in which humans ruled the galaxy. Anyone recalls any good
>> >> >>>stories of this type?
>> >> >>
>> >> >> This has been answered downthread.
>> >> >>
>> >> >
>> >> >All of this alien talk in the group as of late made me question the
>> >> >existence of humanity in sf stories. Does humanity actually appear in
>> >> >Herbert's _Dune_ franchise or Asimov's _Foundation_ franchise? Or, are
>> >> >the characters in those stories just anthromorphic aliens?
>> >>
>> >> The chief commandment of the Orange Catholic Bible is "Thou shalt not
>> >> make a machine in the likeness of a human mind." The Gom Jabbar was a
>> >> test of humanity.
>> >>
>> >> If the characters in the Dune novels were not human, they certainly
>> >> _believed_ that they were.
>> >>
>> >> > Early RAH seems on-the-level, so humanity no doubt appears in his
>> >> >juveniles such as _Citizen of the Galaxy_. Other than that, if the word
>> >> >"Terran" is absent from the story it seems prudent to treat the story as
>> >> >yet another anthromorphic alien account.
>> >>
>> >> I think one would be hard pressed to sell the idea of any Heinlein
>> >> being about "anthropomorphic aliens".
>> >>
>> >> > My current read, the serialization of _World of Null-A_ (Van Vogt)
>> >> >is nearly completed. If my interpretation is correct, it posits a galaxy
>> >> >full of humans and humanoid null-As.
>> >> >
>> >> >Thank you,
>> >
>> >The Gom Jabber was not a test of humanity in a genetic sense. It was a test as to whether a person had the impulse control to act rationally in the face of a severe temptation to do otherwise. It was a test of character.
>>
>> That is NOT what the Bene Gesserit say when administering it. You can
>> argue until you are blue in the face but that does not alter the fact
>> as presented in the books.
>>
>> Look, if you want books about nonhumans there are plenty out
>> there--C.J. Cherryh among others has produced quite a lot of them, but
>> arguing that characters who the author has stated, in the text of the
>> books, are "human" is pointless and makes you look like a troll.
>
>Paul was tested. They knew both his mother and father, who were both human. Do you imagine that they thought that some alien was substituted for the human child?

Do you imagine that I care what you think at this point? Learn to let
it go.
The Zygon
2018-03-08 05:02:24 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On Wednesday, March 7, 2018 at 9:38:16 PM UTC-5, J. Clarke wrote:
> On Wed, 7 Mar 2018 16:52:43 -0800 (PST), The Zygon
> <***@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >On Tuesday, March 6, 2018 at 6:33:49 AM UTC-5, J. Clarke wrote:
> >> On Mon, 5 Mar 2018 22:52:17 -0800 (PST), The Zygon
> >> <***@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> ><snip>
> >> >> >
> >> >> >>>While posting in another thread, I recaled how, in my youth, I used to
> >> >> >>>love stories in which humans ruled the galaxy. Anyone recalls any good
> >> >> >>>stories of this type?
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> This has been answered downthread.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >
> >> >> >All of this alien talk in the group as of late made me question the
> >> >> >existence of humanity in sf stories. Does humanity actually appear in
> >> >> >Herbert's _Dune_ franchise or Asimov's _Foundation_ franchise? Or, are
> >> >> >the characters in those stories just anthromorphic aliens?
> >> >>
> >> >> The chief commandment of the Orange Catholic Bible is "Thou shalt not
> >> >> make a machine in the likeness of a human mind." The Gom Jabbar was a
> >> >> test of humanity.
> >> >>
> >> >> If the characters in the Dune novels were not human, they certainly
> >> >> _believed_ that they were.
> >> >>
> >> >> > Early RAH seems on-the-level, so humanity no doubt appears in his
> >> >> >juveniles such as _Citizen of the Galaxy_. Other than that, if the word
> >> >> >"Terran" is absent from the story it seems prudent to treat the story as
> >> >> >yet another anthromorphic alien account.
> >> >>
> >> >> I think one would be hard pressed to sell the idea of any Heinlein
> >> >> being about "anthropomorphic aliens".
> >> >>
> >> >> > My current read, the serialization of _World of Null-A_ (Van Vogt)
> >> >> >is nearly completed. If my interpretation is correct, it posits a galaxy
> >> >> >full of humans and humanoid null-As.
> >> >> >
> >> >> >Thank you,
> >> >
> >> >The Gom Jabber was not a test of humanity in a genetic sense. It was a test as to whether a person had the impulse control to act rationally in the face of a severe temptation to do otherwise. It was a test of character.
> >>
> >> That is NOT what the Bene Gesserit say when administering it. You can
> >> argue until you are blue in the face but that does not alter the fact
> >> as presented in the books.
> >>
> >> Look, if you want books about nonhumans there are plenty out
> >> there--C.J. Cherryh among others has produced quite a lot of them, but
> >> arguing that characters who the author has stated, in the text of the
> >> books, are "human" is pointless and makes you look like a troll.
> >
> >Paul was tested. They knew both his mother and father, who were both human. Do you imagine that they thought that some alien was substituted for the human child?
>
> Do you imagine that I care what you think at this point? Learn to let
> it go.

We are not having a private conversation. I don't much care for your opinions either. You debate as a person who has a personal catechism which he parrots and not good comprehension of what others say. But this thread has been viewed by over 100 people. Do you not care what they think either.

Show that you have an intelligent response to the question I asked. That is, if the testers already knew that Paul had two human parents, why would they be testing to see whether he is genetically human?

The response is not for me. I don't care what you think either. But the over 100 people who have viewed posts in this thread, may.
J. Clarke
2018-03-08 12:37:56 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On Wed, 7 Mar 2018 21:02:24 -0800 (PST), The Zygon
<***@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Wednesday, March 7, 2018 at 9:38:16 PM UTC-5, J. Clarke wrote:
>> On Wed, 7 Mar 2018 16:52:43 -0800 (PST), The Zygon
>> <***@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> >On Tuesday, March 6, 2018 at 6:33:49 AM UTC-5, J. Clarke wrote:
>> >> On Mon, 5 Mar 2018 22:52:17 -0800 (PST), The Zygon
>> >> <***@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> >
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> ><snip>
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >>>While posting in another thread, I recaled how, in my youth, I used to
>> >> >> >>>love stories in which humans ruled the galaxy. Anyone recalls any good
>> >> >> >>>stories of this type?
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> This has been answered downthread.
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >All of this alien talk in the group as of late made me question the
>> >> >> >existence of humanity in sf stories. Does humanity actually appear in
>> >> >> >Herbert's _Dune_ franchise or Asimov's _Foundation_ franchise? Or, are
>> >> >> >the characters in those stories just anthromorphic aliens?
>> >> >>
>> >> >> The chief commandment of the Orange Catholic Bible is "Thou shalt not
>> >> >> make a machine in the likeness of a human mind." The Gom Jabbar was a
>> >> >> test of humanity.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> If the characters in the Dune novels were not human, they certainly
>> >> >> _believed_ that they were.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> > Early RAH seems on-the-level, so humanity no doubt appears in his
>> >> >> >juveniles such as _Citizen of the Galaxy_. Other than that, if the word
>> >> >> >"Terran" is absent from the story it seems prudent to treat the story as
>> >> >> >yet another anthromorphic alien account.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> I think one would be hard pressed to sell the idea of any Heinlein
>> >> >> being about "anthropomorphic aliens".
>> >> >>
>> >> >> > My current read, the serialization of _World of Null-A_ (Van Vogt)
>> >> >> >is nearly completed. If my interpretation is correct, it posits a galaxy
>> >> >> >full of humans and humanoid null-As.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >Thank you,
>> >> >
>> >> >The Gom Jabber was not a test of humanity in a genetic sense. It was a test as to whether a person had the impulse control to act rationally in the face of a severe temptation to do otherwise. It was a test of character.
>> >>
>> >> That is NOT what the Bene Gesserit say when administering it. You can
>> >> argue until you are blue in the face but that does not alter the fact
>> >> as presented in the books.
>> >>
>> >> Look, if you want books about nonhumans there are plenty out
>> >> there--C.J. Cherryh among others has produced quite a lot of them, but
>> >> arguing that characters who the author has stated, in the text of the
>> >> books, are "human" is pointless and makes you look like a troll.
>> >
>> >Paul was tested. They knew both his mother and father, who were both human. Do you imagine that they thought that some alien was substituted for the human child?
>>
>> Do you imagine that I care what you think at this point? Learn to let
>> it go.
>
>We are not having a private conversation. I don't much care for your opinions either. You debate as a person who has a personal catechism which he parrots and not good comprehension of what others say. But this thread has been viewed by over 100 people. Do you not care what they think either.

ROF,L. You're the one who won't accept the Bene Gesserit definition
of "human" as being valid and instead want to make all those humans
nonhuman based on your own criteria.

As for being viewed by over 100 other people, no, I don't care what
they think. They have no power to influence my life other than by
posting here, so why should I?

>Show that you have an intelligent response to the question I asked.

The intelligent response to your posts is to killfile you as an
annoyance.

> That is, if the testers already knew that Paul had two human parents, why would they be testing to see whether he is genetically human?

Well the obvious one is that the issue only arises if there are
creatures in the Dune universe that can appear to be "genetically
human" but are not.
>
>The response is not for me.

Yes, child, it is.

> I don't care what you think either.

So we've established that I don't care what you think and you don't
care what I think, there is no actual basis for meaningful
communication here.

<plonk>
Dorothy J Heydt
2018-03-08 02:32:52 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
In article <7e0e0374-160a-4f44-af5b-***@googlegroups.com>,
The Zygon <***@gmail.com> wrote:
>On Tuesday, March 6, 2018 at 6:33:49 AM UTC-5, J. Clarke wrote:
>> On Mon, 5 Mar 2018 22:52:17 -0800 (PST), The Zygon
>> <***@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> >
>> >> >
>> >> ><snip>
>> >> >
>> >> >>>While posting in another thread, I recaled how, in my youth, I used to
>> >> >>>love stories in which humans ruled the galaxy. Anyone recalls any good
>> >> >>>stories of this type?
>> >> >>
>> >> >> This has been answered downthread.
>> >> >>
>> >> >
>> >> >All of this alien talk in the group as of late made me question the
>> >> >existence of humanity in sf stories. Does humanity actually appear in
>> >> >Herbert's _Dune_ franchise or Asimov's _Foundation_ franchise? Or, are
>> >> >the characters in those stories just anthromorphic aliens?
>> >>
>> >> The chief commandment of the Orange Catholic Bible is "Thou shalt not
>> >> make a machine in the likeness of a human mind." The Gom Jabbar was a
>> >> test of humanity.
>> >>
>> >> If the characters in the Dune novels were not human, they certainly
>> >> _believed_ that they were.
>> >>
>> >> > Early RAH seems on-the-level, so humanity no doubt appears in his
>> >> >juveniles such as _Citizen of the Galaxy_. Other than that, if the word
>> >> >"Terran" is absent from the story it seems prudent to treat the story as
>> >> >yet another anthromorphic alien account.
>> >>
>> >> I think one would be hard pressed to sell the idea of any Heinlein
>> >> being about "anthropomorphic aliens".
>> >>
>> >> > My current read, the serialization of _World of Null-A_ (Van Vogt)
>> >> >is nearly completed. If my interpretation is correct, it posits a galaxy
>> >> >full of humans and humanoid null-As.
>> >> >
>> >> >Thank you,
>> >
>> >The Gom Jabber was not a test of humanity in a genetic sense. It was
>a test as to whether a person had the impulse control to act rationally
>in the face of a severe temptation to do otherwise. It was a test of
>character.
>>
>> That is NOT what the Bene Gesserit say when administering it. You can
>> argue until you are blue in the face but that does not alter the fact
>> as presented in the books.
>>
>> Look, if you want books about nonhumans there are plenty out
>> there--C.J. Cherryh among others has produced quite a lot of them, but
>> arguing that characters who the author has stated, in the text of the
>> books, are "human" is pointless and makes you look like a troll.
>
>Paul was tested. They knew both his mother and father, who were both
>human. Do you imagine that they thought that some alien was substituted
>for the human child?

No. See upthread where I talked about Campbell's idea about how
people used to test near-adults for his definition of "human",
that is, able to behave in ways befitting humans and not mere
animals.

--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
The Zygon
2018-03-08 03:21:45 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On Wednesday, March 7, 2018 at 10:00:03 PM UTC-5, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
> In article <7e0e0374-160a-4f44-af5b-***@googlegroups.com>,
> The Zygon <***@gmail.com> wrote:
> >On Tuesday, March 6, 2018 at 6:33:49 AM UTC-5, J. Clarke wrote:
> >> On Mon, 5 Mar 2018 22:52:17 -0800 (PST), The Zygon
> >> <***@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> ><snip>
> >> >> >
> >> >> >>>While posting in another thread, I recaled how, in my youth, I used to
> >> >> >>>love stories in which humans ruled the galaxy. Anyone recalls any good
> >> >> >>>stories of this type?
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> This has been answered downthread.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >
> >> >> >All of this alien talk in the group as of late made me question the
> >> >> >existence of humanity in sf stories. Does humanity actually appear in
> >> >> >Herbert's _Dune_ franchise or Asimov's _Foundation_ franchise? Or, are
> >> >> >the characters in those stories just anthromorphic aliens?
> >> >>
> >> >> The chief commandment of the Orange Catholic Bible is "Thou shalt not
> >> >> make a machine in the likeness of a human mind." The Gom Jabbar was a
> >> >> test of humanity.
> >> >>
> >> >> If the characters in the Dune novels were not human, they certainly
> >> >> _believed_ that they were.
> >> >>
> >> >> > Early RAH seems on-the-level, so humanity no doubt appears in his
> >> >> >juveniles such as _Citizen of the Galaxy_. Other than that, if the word
> >> >> >"Terran" is absent from the story it seems prudent to treat the story as
> >> >> >yet another anthromorphic alien account.
> >> >>
> >> >> I think one would be hard pressed to sell the idea of any Heinlein
> >> >> being about "anthropomorphic aliens".
> >> >>
> >> >> > My current read, the serialization of _World of Null-A_ (Van Vogt)
> >> >> >is nearly completed. If my interpretation is correct, it posits a galaxy
> >> >> >full of humans and humanoid null-As.
> >> >> >
> >> >> >Thank you,
> >> >
> >> >The Gom Jabber was not a test of humanity in a genetic sense. It was
> >a test as to whether a person had the impulse control to act rationally
> >in the face of a severe temptation to do otherwise. It was a test of
> >character.
> >>
> >> That is NOT what the Bene Gesserit say when administering it. You can
> >> argue until you are blue in the face but that does not alter the fact
> >> as presented in the books.
> >>
> >> Look, if you want books about nonhumans there are plenty out
> >> there--C.J. Cherryh among others has produced quite a lot of them, but
> >> arguing that characters who the author has stated, in the text of the
> >> books, are "human" is pointless and makes you look like a troll.
> >
> >Paul was tested. They knew both his mother and father, who were both
> >human. Do you imagine that they thought that some alien was substituted
> >for the human child?
>
> No. See upthread where I talked about Campbell's idea about how
> people used to test near-adults for his definition of "human",
> that is, able to behave in ways befitting humans and not mere
> animals.
>
> --
> Dorothy J. Heydt
> Vallejo, California
> djheydt at gmail dot com

This is precisely what I understood from the book.
Kevrob
2018-03-09 21:36:32 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On Wednesday, March 7, 2018 at 7:52:46 PM UTC-5, The Zygon wrote:
> On Tuesday, March 6, 2018 at 6:33:49 AM UTC-5, J. Clarke wrote:
> > On Mon, 5 Mar 2018 22:52:17 -0800 (PST), The Zygon
> > <***@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > >
> > >> >
> > >> ><snip>
> > >> >
> > >> >>>While posting in another thread, I recaled how, in my youth, I used to
> > >> >>>love stories in which humans ruled the galaxy. Anyone recalls any good
> > >> >>>stories of this type?
> > >> >>
> > >> >> This has been answered downthread.
> > >> >>
> > >> >
> > >> >All of this alien talk in the group as of late made me question the
> > >> >existence of humanity in sf stories. Does humanity actually appear in
> > >> >Herbert's _Dune_ franchise or Asimov's _Foundation_ franchise? Or, are
> > >> >the characters in those stories just anthromorphic aliens?
> > >>
> > >> The chief commandment of the Orange Catholic Bible is "Thou shalt not
> > >> make a machine in the likeness of a human mind." The Gom Jabbar was a
> > >> test of humanity.
> > >>
> > >> If the characters in the Dune novels were not human, they certainly
> > >> _believed_ that they were.
> > >>
> > >> > Early RAH seems on-the-level, so humanity no doubt appears in his
> > >> >juveniles such as _Citizen of the Galaxy_. Other than that, if the word
> > >> >"Terran" is absent from the story it seems prudent to treat the story as
> > >> >yet another anthromorphic alien account.
> > >>
> > >> I think one would be hard pressed to sell the idea of any Heinlein
> > >> being about "anthropomorphic aliens".
> > >>
> > >> > My current read, the serialization of _World of Null-A_ (Van Vogt)
> > >> >is nearly completed. If my interpretation is correct, it posits a galaxy
> > >> >full of humans and humanoid null-As.
> > >> >
> > >> >Thank you,
> > >
> > >The Gom Jabber was not a test of humanity in a genetic sense. It was a test as to whether a person had the impulse control to act rationally in the face of a severe temptation to do otherwise. It was a test of character.
> >
> > That is NOT what the Bene Gesserit say when administering it. You can
> > argue until you are blue in the face but that does not alter the fact
> > as presented in the books.
> >
> > Look, if you want books about nonhumans there are plenty out
> > there--C.J. Cherryh among others has produced quite a lot of them, but
> > arguing that characters who the author has stated, in the text of the
> > books, are "human" is pointless and makes you look like a troll.
>
> Paul was tested. They knew both his mother and father, who were both human. Do you imagine that they thought that some alien was substituted for the human child?

Fear of a possible mutation that would create an "abomination"* is
what I remember, but I read Frank Herbert's "DUNE" at least 45 years ago.

They did wind up with something other than they had expected, so
they tested Paul and put him at risk of his life. Jessica was
supposed to have produced a daughter, who could be used in the BG's
breeding program.

Kevin R

* http://dune.wikia.com/wiki/Abomination
Juho Julkunen
2018-03-10 01:17:25 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
In article <b51959b9-a2d6-4b68-86c8-***@googlegroups.com>,
***@my-deja.com says...
>
> On Wednesday, March 7, 2018 at 7:52:46 PM UTC-5, The Zygon wrote:

> >
> > Paul was tested. They knew both his mother and father, who were both human. Do you imagine that they thought that some alien was substituted for the human child?
>
> Fear of a possible mutation that would create an "abomination"* is
> what I remember, but I read Frank Herbert's "DUNE" at least 45 years ago.

The abominations weren't the result of a mutation, but circumstance. It
referred to children with awakened "other memories". Their undeveloped
psyches left them vulnerable to being taken over by strong
personalities from the past. Those personalities didn't tend to be the
nicest ones, and the stored memories gave them extensive experience and
skills to draw on. From Bene Gesserit point of view they were dangerous
because they were unpredictable and uncontrollable.

They created Kwisatz Haderach quite deliberately. Once they succeeded,
they spent the rest of their existance trying to prevent another one,
as it turned out Paul wasn't that controllable either.

(Leto II, of course, was an abomination by BG views.)

--
Juho Julkunen
Dimensional Traveler
2018-03-10 02:59:36 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On 3/9/2018 5:17 PM, Juho Julkunen wrote:
> In article <b51959b9-a2d6-4b68-86c8-***@googlegroups.com>,
> ***@my-deja.com says...
>>
>> On Wednesday, March 7, 2018 at 7:52:46 PM UTC-5, The Zygon wrote:
>
>>>
>>> Paul was tested. They knew both his mother and father, who were both human. Do you imagine that they thought that some alien was substituted for the human child?
>>
>> Fear of a possible mutation that would create an "abomination"* is
>> what I remember, but I read Frank Herbert's "DUNE" at least 45 years ago.
>
> The abominations weren't the result of a mutation, but circumstance. It
> referred to children with awakened "other memories". Their undeveloped
> psyches left them vulnerable to being taken over by strong
> personalities from the past. Those personalities didn't tend to be the
> nicest ones, and the stored memories gave them extensive experience and
> skills to draw on. From Bene Gesserit point of view they were dangerous
> because they were unpredictable and uncontrollable.
>
> They created Kwisatz Haderach quite deliberately. Once they succeeded,
> they spent the rest of their existance trying to prevent another one,
> as it turned out Paul wasn't that controllable either.
>
> (Leto II, of course, was an abomination by BG views.)
>
Paul wasn't supposed to be the Kwisatz Haderach. He was supposed to be
the she who would be the _mother_ of the Kwisatz Haderach. That had
something to do with Paul's "uncontrollability", though given what he
turned out to be capable of one suspects the intended Kwisatz Haderach
wouldn't have been any more pliable by the BG.

--
Inquiring minds want to know while minds with a self-preservation
instinct are running screaming.
Juho Julkunen
2018-03-10 03:07:55 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
In article <p7vhmo$opv$***@dont-email.me>, ***@sonic.net says...
>
> On 3/9/2018 5:17 PM, Juho Julkunen wrote:
> > In article <b51959b9-a2d6-4b68-86c8-***@googlegroups.com>,
> > ***@my-deja.com says...
> >>
> >> On Wednesday, March 7, 2018 at 7:52:46 PM UTC-5, The Zygon wrote:
> >
> >>>
> >>> Paul was tested. They knew both his mother and father, who were both human. Do you imagine that they thought that some alien was substituted for the human child?
> >>
> >> Fear of a possible mutation that would create an "abomination"* is
> >> what I remember, but I read Frank Herbert's "DUNE" at least 45 years ago.
> >
> > The abominations weren't the result of a mutation, but circumstance. It
> > referred to children with awakened "other memories". Their undeveloped
> > psyches left them vulnerable to being taken over by strong
> > personalities from the past. Those personalities didn't tend to be the
> > nicest ones, and the stored memories gave them extensive experience and
> > skills to draw on. From Bene Gesserit point of view they were dangerous
> > because they were unpredictable and uncontrollable.
> >
> > They created Kwisatz Haderach quite deliberately. Once they succeeded,
> > they spent the rest of their existance trying to prevent another one,
> > as it turned out Paul wasn't that controllable either.
> >
> > (Leto II, of course, was an abomination by BG views.)
> >
> Paul wasn't supposed to be the Kwisatz Haderach. He was supposed to be
> the she who would be the _mother_ of the Kwisatz Haderach. That had
> something to do with Paul's "uncontrollability", though given what he
> turned out to be capable of one suspects the intended Kwisatz Haderach
> wouldn't have been any more pliable by the BG.

BG probably planned to be in place to guide his development, and
Jessica's disobedience threw them, but that seems like one of those
plans that was always going to backfire.

--
Juho Julkunen
D B Davis
2018-03-10 04:30:00 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Juho Julkunen <***@hotmail.com> wrote:
> In article <b51959b9-a2d6-4b68-86c8-***@googlegroups.com>,
> ***@my-deja.com says...
>>
>> On Wednesday, March 7, 2018 at 7:52:46 PM UTC-5, The Zygon wrote:
>
>> >
>> > Paul was tested. They knew both his mother and father, who were both
>> > human. Do you imagine that they thought that some alien was substituted
>> > for the human child?
>>
>> Fear of a possible mutation that would create an "abomination"* is
>> what I remember, but I read Frank Herbert's "DUNE" at least 45 years ago.
>
> The abominations weren't the result of a mutation, but circumstance. It
> referred to children with awakened "other memories". Their undeveloped
> psyches left them vulnerable to being taken over by strong
> personalities from the past. Those personalities didn't tend to be the
> nicest ones, and the stored memories gave them extensive experience and
> skills to draw on. From Bene Gesserit point of view they were dangerous
> because they were unpredictable and uncontrollable.
>
> They created Kwisatz Haderach quite deliberately. Once they succeeded,
> they spent the rest of their existance trying to prevent another one,
> as it turned out Paul wasn't that controllable either.
>
> (Leto II, of course, was an abomination by BG views.)
>

Alia, an accidental abomination, happens when Jessica drinks the Waters
of Life while she's pregnant. The Waters of Life are drunk as part of
the ceremony for Jessica to take over from Reverend Mother Ramallo.
For me, this is about enjoying every exquisite detail of the story
with fellow fans. It's not intended as pedantic. In that spirit, here's
yet another copy-and-paste from the pertinent pdf. (If this keeps up,
the whole darned story will eventually get posted to usenet. And then a
netkook will nark on me for a ToS violation. LOL.)

"The Reverend Mother tells me she cannot survive another hajra,"
Stilgar said. "We have lived before without a Reverend Mother, but
it is not good for people to seek a new home in such straits."
Now, the throng stirred, rippling with whispers and currents
of disquiet.
"That this may not come to pass," Stilgar said, "our new
Sayyadina Jessica of the Weirding, has consented to enter the rite
at this time. She will attempt to pass within that we not lose the
strength of our Reverend Mother."

...

They touched!
It was like an ultimate simpatico, being two people at once: not
telepathy, but mutual awareness.
With the old Reverend Mother!
But Jessica saw that the Reverend Mother didn't think of herself
as old. An image unfolded before the mutual mind's eye: a young girl
with a dancing spirit and tender humor.
Within the mutual awareness, the young girl said, "Yes, that is
how I am."
Jessica could only accept the words, not respond to them.
"You'll have it all soon, Jessica," the inward image said.
This is hallucination, Jessica told herself.
"You know better than that," the inward image said. "Swiftly
now, do not fight me. There isn't much time. We . . . " There came a
long pause, then; "You should've told us you were pregnant!"
Jessica found the voice that talked within the mutual awareness.
"Why?"
"This changes both of you! Holy Mother, what have we done?"
Jessica sensed a forced shift in the mutual awareness, saw
another mote-presence with the inward eye. The other mote darted
wildly here, there, circling. It radiated pure terror.
"You'll have to be strong," the old Reverend Mother's
image-presence said.
"Be thankful it's a daughter you carry. This would've killed a
male fetus. Now ... carefully, gently ... touch your
daughter-presence. Be your daughter-presence. Absorb the fear ...
soothe ... use your courage and your strength ... gently now ...
gently."
The other whirling mote swept near, and Jessica compelled
herself to touch it.
Terror threatened to overwhelm her.
She fought it the only way she knew: "I shall not fear. Fear is
the mind killer ... "
The litany brought a semblance of calm. The other mote lay
quiescent against her.
Words won't work, Jessica told herself.
She reduced herself to basic emotional reactions, radiated love,
comfort, a warm snuggling of protection.
The terror receded.

Thank you,

--
Don
Paul Colquhoun
2018-03-08 04:42:17 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On Tue, 06 Mar 2018 06:33:44 -0500, J Clarke <***@gmail.com> wrote:
| On Mon, 5 Mar 2018 22:52:17 -0800 (PST), The Zygon
| <***@gmail.com> wrote:


|>The Gom Jabber was not a test of humanity in a genetic sense. It was a
|>test as to whether a person had the impulse control to act rationally
|>in the face of a severe temptation to do otherwise. It was a test of
|>character.
|
| That is NOT what the Bene Gesserit say when administering it. You can
| argue until you are blue in the face but that does not alter the fact
| as presented in the books.


Page 14 of my "Dune" paperback, during Paul's Gom Jabbar test, says:

"The old woman said: 'You've heard of animals chewing off a leg to
escape a trap? There's an animal kind of trick. A human would remain
in the trap, endure the pain, feigning death that he might kill the
trapper and remove a threat to his kind.'"

Page 15

"'Why are you doing this?' he demanded.
'To determine if you are human. Be silent.'"

Page 16

"'We Bene Gesserit sift people to find the humans.'"

Reverend Mother Gaius Helen Mohiam plainly tells Paul that they look
through the genetic people to find those that meet their criteria for
human.


| Look, if you want books about nonhumans there are plenty out
| there--C.J. Cherryh among others has produced quite a lot of them, but
| arguing that characters who the author has stated, in the text of the
| books, are "human" is pointless and makes you look like a troll.


--
Reverend Paul Colquhoun, ULC. http://andor.dropbear.id.au/
Asking for technical help in newsgroups? Read this first:
http://catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html#intro
The Zygon
2018-03-08 04:55:09 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On Wednesday, March 7, 2018 at 11:48:29 PM UTC-5, Paul Colquhoun wrote:
> On Tue, 06 Mar 2018 06:33:44 -0500, J Clarke <***@gmail.com> wrote:
> | On Mon, 5 Mar 2018 22:52:17 -0800 (PST), The Zygon
> | <***@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> |>The Gom Jabber was not a test of humanity in a genetic sense. It was a
> |>test as to whether a person had the impulse control to act rationally
> |>in the face of a severe temptation to do otherwise. It was a test of
> |>character.
> |
> | That is NOT what the Bene Gesserit say when administering it. You can
> | argue until you are blue in the face but that does not alter the fact
> | as presented in the books.
>
>
> Page 14 of my "Dune" paperback, during Paul's Gom Jabbar test, says:
>
> "The old woman said: 'You've heard of animals chewing off a leg to
> escape a trap? There's an animal kind of trick. A human would remain
> in the trap, endure the pain, feigning death that he might kill the
> trapper and remove a threat to his kind.'"
>
> Page 15
>
> "'Why are you doing this?' he demanded.
> 'To determine if you are human. Be silent.'"
>
> Page 16
>
> "'We Bene Gesserit sift people to find the humans.'"
>
> Reverend Mother Gaius Helen Mohiam plainly tells Paul that they look
> through the genetic people to find those that meet their criteria for
> human.
>
>
> | Look, if you want books about nonhumans there are plenty out
> | there--C.J. Cherryh among others has produced quite a lot of them, but
> | arguing that characters who the author has stated, in the text of the
> | books, are "human" is pointless and makes you look like a troll.
>
>
> --
> Reverend Paul Colquhoun, ULC. http://andor.dropbear.id.au/
> Asking for technical help in newsgroups? Read this first:
> http://catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html#intro

No, she said that they sift people. They don't do that by just examining genes. They use the gom jabbar to test for those who are truly human beings, and not just animals. The dichotomy is between humans and animals. Not humans and aliens.
David DeLaney
2018-03-14 19:58:12 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On 2018-03-06, J Clarke <***@gmail.com> wrote:
> Look, if you want books about nonhumans there are plenty out
> there--C.J. Cherryh among others has produced quite a lot of them, but
> arguing that characters who the author has stated, in the text of the
> books, are "human" is pointless and makes you look like a troll.

I'll just note quietly that Brust's Dragaerans consider _themselves_ human,
and refer to those who we might take to be the humans in the setting as
"Easterners". While at the same time the Easterners consider themselves
human, and the Dragaerans "elfs". Both as shown by the author.

Dave, and what about Valerians, or the ship persons in Ancillary {Foo}?
--
\/David DeLaney posting thru EarthLink - "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
my gatekeeper archives are no longer accessible :( / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.
Greg Goss
2018-03-06 03:11:42 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
D B Davis <***@crcomp.net> wrote:


>All of this alien talk in the group as of late made me question the
>existence of humanity in sf stories. Does humanity actually appear in
>Herbert's _Dune_ franchise or Asimov's _Foundation_ franchise? Or, are
>the characters in those stories just anthromorphic aliens?

In one of the early Foundation stories, a visiting researcher comments
on a competitor's claim that humanity's origin on the third planet of
a minor star in the Sirius sector is not something he finds
convincing. I think that the reader is expected to find it truly
convincing.
--
We are geeks. Resistance is voltage over current.
Jack Bohn
2018-03-06 04:42:46 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Greg Goss wrote:

>D B Davis <***@crcomp.net> wrote: 
>
>>All of this alien talk in the group as of late made me question the 
>>existence of humanity in sf stories. Does humanity actually appear in 
>>Herbert's _Dune_ franchise or Asimov's _Foundation_ franchise? Or, are 
>>the characters in those stories just anthromorphic aliens? 
>
>In one of the early Foundation stories, a visiting researcher comments 
>on a competitor's claim that humanity's origin on the third planet of
>a minor star in the Sirius sector is not something he finds 
>convincing.  I think that the reader is expected to find it truly 
>convincing. 

Depending on what additional stories yon include in the Foundation series, _Pebble in the Sky_ makes it explicit. _The Stars Like Dust_ mentions a historical document, but that may be considered an alien-analog document, like in Star Trek:"The Omega Glory."

--
-Jack
Johnny1A
2018-03-08 05:00:19 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On Monday, March 5, 2018 at 9:36:59 AM UTC-6, D B Davis wrote:
> Dorothy J Heydt <***@kithrup.com> wrote:
> > In article <da287717-da3f-4d29-adf5-***@googlegroups.com>,
> > The Zygon <***@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
> >>While posting in another thread, I recaled how, in my youth, I used to
> >>love stories in which humans ruled the galaxy. Anyone recalls any good
> >>stories of this type?
> >
> > This has been answered downthread.
> >
>
> All of this alien talk in the group as of late made me question the
> existence of humanity in sf stories. Does humanity actually appear in
> Herbert's _Dune_ franchise or Asimov's _Foundation_ franchise? Or, are
> the characters in those stories just anthromorphic aliens?
> Early RAH seems on-the-level, so humanity no doubt appears in his
> juveniles such as _Citizen of the Galaxy_. Other than that, if the word
> "Terran" is absent from the story it seems prudent to treat the story as
> yet another anthromorphic alien account.

>
> Thank you,
>
> --
> Don

I'm not sure what you mean, but the humans of the Foundation stories are specifically descended from Earthmen. They've forgotten which star Earth orbits, and even the name, for the most part, after 20,000 years, but they they're definitely 100% _H. sapiens_.

Ditto _Dune_. It's another story set tens of thousands of years in the future, but the human race is the human race. Leto II can _remember_ Earth, all the way back to the prehistoric past.
The Zygon
2018-03-08 05:12:38 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On Thursday, March 8, 2018 at 12:00:21 AM UTC-5, Johnny1A wrote:
> On Monday, March 5, 2018 at 9:36:59 AM UTC-6, D B Davis wrote:
> > Dorothy J Heydt <***@kithrup.com> wrote:
> > > In article <da287717-da3f-4d29-adf5-***@googlegroups.com>,
> > > The Zygon <***@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > <snip>
> >
> > >>While posting in another thread, I recaled how, in my youth, I used to
> > >>love stories in which humans ruled the galaxy. Anyone recalls any good
> > >>stories of this type?
> > >
> > > This has been answered downthread.
> > >
> >
> > All of this alien talk in the group as of late made me question the
> > existence of humanity in sf stories. Does humanity actually appear in
> > Herbert's _Dune_ franchise or Asimov's _Foundation_ franchise? Or, are
> > the characters in those stories just anthromorphic aliens?
> > Early RAH seems on-the-level, so humanity no doubt appears in his
> > juveniles such as _Citizen of the Galaxy_. Other than that, if the word
> > "Terran" is absent from the story it seems prudent to treat the story as
> > yet another anthromorphic alien account.
>
> >
> > Thank you,
> >
> > --
> > Don
>
> I'm not sure what you mean, but the humans of the Foundation stories are specifically descended from Earthmen. They've forgotten which star Earth orbits, and even the name, for the most part, after 20,000 years, but they they're definitely 100% _H. sapiens_.
>
> Ditto _Dune_. It's another story set tens of thousands of years in the future, but the human race is the human race. Leto II can _remember_ Earth, all the way back to the prehistoric past.

Many of the early stories with clones have the clone remembering all that the original knew. The first I read - and I have read that it is the first such story - was _The Monster_ by A E Van Vogt. Frank Herbert's idea is a variation on that idea. Children a not clones, but the genetic material transfers the memories to them, in a fashion similar to clones.

Now that cloning is a reality for animals and we have such a much better understanding of the process, I don't see the idea of persistent memory in more recent stories involving cloning.
Dorothy J Heydt
2018-03-08 05:21:30 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
In article <6f0b73ed-1524-47b8-b6f5-***@googlegroups.com>,
The Zygon <***@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>Many of the early stories with clones have the clone remembering all
>that the original knew. The first I read - and I have read that it is
>the first such story - was _The Monster_ by A E Van Vogt. Frank
>Herbert's idea is a variation on that idea. Children are not clones, but
>the genetic material transfers the memories to them, in a fashion
>similar to clones.
>
>Now that cloning is a reality for animals and we have such a much better
>understanding of the process, I don't see the idea of persistent memory
>in more recent stories involving cloning.

If you want clones with their originals' memories, you have to
rec-create the originals' life experiences. See _Cyteen._

--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
The Zygon
2018-03-08 05:56:32 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On Thursday, March 8, 2018 at 12:45:05 AM UTC-5, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
> In article <6f0b73ed-1524-47b8-b6f5-***@googlegroups.com>,
> The Zygon <***@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >Many of the early stories with clones have the clone remembering all
> >that the original knew. The first I read - and I have read that it is
> >the first such story - was _The Monster_ by A E Van Vogt. Frank
> >Herbert's idea is a variation on that idea. Children are not clones, but
> >the genetic material transfers the memories to them, in a fashion
> >similar to clones.
> >
> >Now that cloning is a reality for animals and we have such a much better
> >understanding of the process, I don't see the idea of persistent memory
> >in more recent stories involving cloning.
>
> If you want clones with their originals' memories, you have to
> rec-create the originals' life experiences. See _Cyteen._
>
> --
> Dorothy J. Heydt
> Vallejo, California
> djheydt at gmail dot com

I read _Cyteen_. Did she recover previous memories? I do not recall that. It is on my reread list.
Dorothy J Heydt
2018-03-08 06:12:53 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
In article <ac9cc42a-6d7a-49a2-a64a-***@googlegroups.com>,
The Zygon <***@gmail.com> wrote:
>On Thursday, March 8, 2018 at 12:45:05 AM UTC-5, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
>> In article <6f0b73ed-1524-47b8-b6f5-***@googlegroups.com>,
>> The Zygon <***@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >
>> >Many of the early stories with clones have the clone remembering all
>> >that the original knew. The first I read - and I have read that it is
>> >the first such story - was _The Monster_ by A E Van Vogt. Frank
>> >Herbert's idea is a variation on that idea. Children are not clones, but
>> >the genetic material transfers the memories to them, in a fashion
>> >similar to clones.
>> >
>> >Now that cloning is a reality for animals and we have such a much better
>> >understanding of the process, I don't see the idea of persistent memory
>> >in more recent stories involving cloning.
>>
>> If you want clones with their originals' memories, you have to
>> rec-create the originals' life experiences. See _Cyteen._
>>
>> --
>> Dorothy J. Heydt
>> Vallejo, California
>> djheydt at gmail dot com
>
>I read _Cyteen_. Did she recover previous memories?

She re-created previous memories by re-living her predecessor's
life as exactly as her handlers could reconstruct it.

For example, when Ari I was seven, her mother died. When Ari II
was seven, her foster-mother was suddenly sent away to a distant
station, whence she never returned.

Later on, she would remark that she had the illusion of memory.


--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
David DeLaney
2018-03-14 20:03:28 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On 2018-03-08, Dorothy J Heydt <***@kithrup.com> wrote:
> The Zygon <***@gmail.com> wrote:
>>Now that cloning is a reality for animals and we have such a much better
>>understanding of the process, I don't see the idea of persistent memory
>>in more recent stories involving cloning.
>
> If you want clones with their originals' memories, you have to
> rec-create the originals' life experiences. See _Cyteen._

Also see Bujold's Barrayar series, particularly I think _Memory_?

Dave, things can go wackily wrong
--
\/David DeLaney posting thru EarthLink - "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
my gatekeeper archives are no longer accessible :( / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.
Quadibloc
2018-03-18 21:03:47 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
And, of course, "The Boys from Brazil".
Jack Bohn
2018-03-05 15:38:41 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Dorothy J Heydt wrote:

In article <da287717-da3f-4d29-adf5-***@googlegroups.com>, 

The Zygon  <***@gmail.com> wrote: 

>>It turns out that human beings had built and lost a galaxy spanning 
>>empire a number of times.  Each time the other species had united 
>>against humanity a number of times, each time fighting to mutual 
>>destruction.  But this time, when they rebelled they other species won 
>>and decided to eliminate humanity.  There was a hint in the story that 
>>they had sometime before tried the half-measure of restricting humans to 
>>one system, but the humans had broken out and set about to reconquer the 
>>galaxy.   Unfortunately, I cannot recall the author or story name. 

>There are several, but the best is Michael Shaara's "All The Way 
>Home."

That was the one I was going to pull down the _Galactic Empires_ anthology to find. The Zygon might like those books; two volumes edited by Brian W. Adliss, or a combined edition. (I see the title is also used by anthologies by Gardner Dozois in '08 and Neil Clarke in '17 with more contemporary stories, and an anthology/omnibus/ebook collection of eight novels (it's probably easier per word to write a novel than a short story these days) plus a Asimov/Greenberg/Waugh anthology _Intergalactic Empires_, because why limit yourself.

There was a story in Bradbury's _The Illustrated Man_, probably "The City", about a city on an alien planet that knew humans (it detected "the sour zmell of milk" on their breath) anx trapped them, I don't remember why, but I have my suspicions.

Fredric Brown's "Letter to a Phoenix" and James Blish's "Writings of the Rat" have cycles of galactic conquests.

--
-Jack
Dorothy J Heydt
2018-03-05 16:17:34 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
In article <074871b4-4b1d-4cfa-940c-***@googlegroups.com>,
Jack Bohn <***@gmail.com> wrote:
>Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
>
>In article <da287717-da3f-4d29-adf5-***@googlegroups.com>, 
>
>The Zygon  <***@gmail.com> wrote: 
>> 
>>>It turns out that human beings had built and lost a galaxy spanning 
>>>empire a number of times.  Each time the other species had united 
>>>against humanity a number of times, each time fighting to mutual 
>>>destruction.  But this time, when they rebelled they other species won 
>>>and decided to eliminate humanity.  There was a hint in the story that 
>>>they had sometime before tried the half-measure of restricting humans to 
>>>one system, but the humans had broken out and set about to reconquer the 
>>>galaxy.   Unfortunately, I cannot recall the author or story name. 
>
>>There are several, but the best is Michael Shaara's "All The Way 
>>Home."
>
>That was the one I was going to pull down the _Galactic Empires_
>anthology to find.

I have it saved to a small file, because otherwise I can never remember
its title. :)

--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Ted Nolan <tednolan>
2018-03-05 16:27:57 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
In article <***@kithrup.com>,
Dorothy J Heydt <***@kithrup.com> wrote:
>In article <da287717-da3f-4d29-adf5-***@googlegroups.com>,
>The Zygon <***@gmail.com> wrote:
>>I once read a science fiction story of the last two human beings in the
>>universe. The blew themselves up as well as a military force consisting
>>of the other technologically advanced species of the galaxy which was
>>hunting them.
>>
>>It turns out that human beings had built and lost a galaxy spanning
>>empire a number of times. Each time the other species had united
>>against humanity a number of times, each time fighting to mutual
>>destruction. But this time, when they rebelled they other species won
>>and decided to eliminate humanity. There was a hint in the story that
>>they had sometime before tried the half-measure of restricting humans to
>>one system, but the humans had broken out and set about to reconquer the
>>galaxy. Unfortunately, I cannot recall the author or story name.
>
>There are several, but the best is Michael Shaara's "All The Way
>Home." Here's the quoted line:
>
>"Great were the Antha, so reads the One Book of history, greater
>perhaps than any of the Galactic Peoples . . ."
>
>The first humans exploring outside the Solar System are met by
>aliens who explain that the Antha had conquered the galaxy, and
>ruled it so cruelly that the other species had risen against
>them and, they'd thought, wiped them out. Only to see them
>recover and conquer again. This happened several times. The
>aliens explain this, and then kill the human explorers as
>painlessly as they can contrive. And then say to one another,
>"Oh dear, they're doing it again."
>
>>While posting in another thread, I recaled how, in my youth, I used to
>>love stories in which humans ruled the galaxy. Anyone recalls any good
>>stories of this type?
>
>This has been answered downthread.
>

It seems to me there are fewer than you might think, especially after you
eliminate the "humans only" settings like "Foundation".

Smith's "Civilization" was explicitly multi-species, and Anderson's "Terran
Empire" did rule over non-humans, but was by no means a galaxy wide power.
Campbell liked wily human stories, but they didn't usually involve making
humans paramount, just getting them out of a bad jam. Per van Vogt, we
might be the race to rule the sevagram, but not just yet.
--
------
columbiaclosings.com
What's not in Columbia anymore..
Dimensional Traveler
2018-03-06 02:25:58 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On 3/4/2018 8:38 PM, The Zygon wrote:
> I once read a science fiction story of the last two human beings in the universe. The blew themselves up as well as a military force consisting of the other technologically advanced species of the galaxy which was hunting them.
>
> It turns out that human beings had built and lost a galaxy spanning empire a number of times. Each time the other species had united against humanity a number of times, each time fighting to mutual destruction. But this time, when they rebelled they other species won and decided to eliminate humanity. There was a hint in the story that they had sometime before tried the half-measure of restricting humans to one system, but the humans had broken out and set about to reconquer the galaxy. Unfortunately, I cannot recall the author or story name.
>
> While posting in another thread, I recaled how, in my youth, I used to love stories in which humans ruled the galaxy. Anyone recalls any good stories of this type?
>
I remember a golden age short story with a background of recurring human
conquest of most of the galaxy, revolts by aliens driving humans back to
one planet or a small sector, followed by humans breaking out again.
After a couple of cycles of this the aliens figured out the best way to
avoid this was to not interact with humans anymore. AT ALL. Leave the
dangerous monkeys alone and they won't come out to conquer us. This
works for some long number of generations with humans forgetting about
aliens and humans becoming legendary boogie-men to the aliens. Until
some new, curious species wants to know what all they fuss is about
humans. So they capture one and put him in a cage to study. Finally
the human, after many years of weakening the bars of his cage by
secretly spitting on them (I did say MANY years), waits until a space
rocket lands nearby and breaks out, hijacking the ship and running back
to tell the rest of humanity about the bad aliens out there! The story
ends with an observer from an "older, wiser" race telling the scientists
of the younger, curious race (paraphrasing) "This is why we don't fuck
with the humans."

--
Inquiring minds want to know while minds with a self-preservation
instinct are running screaming.
Dorothy J Heydt
2018-03-06 02:33:33 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
In article <p7ku7h$7bk$***@dont-email.me>,
Dimensional Traveler <***@sonic.net> wrote:
>On 3/4/2018 8:38 PM, The Zygon wrote:
>> I once read a science fiction story of the last two human beings in
>the universe. The blew themselves up as well as a military force
>consisting of the other technologically advanced species of the galaxy
>which was hunting them.
>>
>> It turns out that human beings had built and lost a galaxy spanning
>empire a number of times. Each time the other species had united
>against humanity a number of times, each time fighting to mutual
>destruction. But this time, when they rebelled they other species won
>and decided to eliminate humanity. There was a hint in the story that
>they had sometime before tried the half-measure of restricting humans to
>one system, but the humans had broken out and set about to reconquer the
>galaxy. Unfortunately, I cannot recall the author or story name.
>>
>> While posting in another thread, I recaled how, in my youth, I used
>to love stories in which humans ruled the galaxy. Anyone recalls any
>good stories of this type?
>>
>I remember a golden age short story with a background of recurring human
>conquest of most of the galaxy, revolts by aliens driving humans back to
>one planet or a small sector, followed by humans breaking out again.
>After a couple of cycles of this the aliens figured out the best way to
>avoid this was to not interact with humans anymore. AT ALL. Leave the
>dangerous monkeys alone and they won't come out to conquer us. This
>works for some long number of generations with humans forgetting about
>aliens and humans becoming legendary boogie-men to the aliens. Until
>some new, curious species wants to know what all they fuss is about
>humans. So they capture one and put him in a cage to study. Finally
>the human, after many years of weakening the bars of his cage by
>secretly spitting on them (I did say MANY years), waits until a space
>rocket lands nearby and breaks out, hijacking the ship and running back
>to tell the rest of humanity about the bad aliens out there! The story
>ends with an observer from an "older, wiser" race telling the scientists
>of the younger, curious race (paraphrasing) "This is why we don't fuck
>with the humans."

Heh. I thought this was going to turn out to be "All the Way
Home" again, until it didn't. I haven't read the one you
describe, but I'd like to.


--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Chris Buckley
2018-03-06 03:07:39 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On 2018-03-06, Dorothy J Heydt <***@kithrup.com> wrote:
> In article <p7ku7h$7bk$***@dont-email.me>,
> Dimensional Traveler <***@sonic.net> wrote:
>>On 3/4/2018 8:38 PM, The Zygon wrote:
>>> I once read a science fiction story of the last two human beings in
>>the universe. The blew themselves up as well as a military force
>>consisting of the other technologically advanced species of the galaxy
>>which was hunting them.
>>>
>>> It turns out that human beings had built and lost a galaxy spanning
>>empire a number of times. Each time the other species had united
>>against humanity a number of times, each time fighting to mutual
>>destruction. But this time, when they rebelled they other species won
>>and decided to eliminate humanity. There was a hint in the story that
>>they had sometime before tried the half-measure of restricting humans to
>>one system, but the humans had broken out and set about to reconquer the
>>galaxy. Unfortunately, I cannot recall the author or story name.
>>>
>>> While posting in another thread, I recaled how, in my youth, I used
>>to love stories in which humans ruled the galaxy. Anyone recalls any
>>good stories of this type?
>>>
>>I remember a golden age short story with a background of recurring human
>>conquest of most of the galaxy, revolts by aliens driving humans back to
>>one planet or a small sector, followed by humans breaking out again.
>>After a couple of cycles of this the aliens figured out the best way to
>>avoid this was to not interact with humans anymore. AT ALL. Leave the
>>dangerous monkeys alone and they won't come out to conquer us. This
>>works for some long number of generations with humans forgetting about
>>aliens and humans becoming legendary boogie-men to the aliens. Until
>>some new, curious species wants to know what all they fuss is about
>>humans. So they capture one and put him in a cage to study. Finally
>>the human, after many years of weakening the bars of his cage by
>>secretly spitting on them (I did say MANY years), waits until a space
>>rocket lands nearby and breaks out, hijacking the ship and running back
>>to tell the rest of humanity about the bad aliens out there! The story
>>ends with an observer from an "older, wiser" race telling the scientists
>>of the younger, curious race (paraphrasing) "This is why we don't fuck
>>with the humans."
>
> Heh. I thought this was going to turn out to be "All the Way
> Home" again, until it didn't. I haven't read the one you
> describe, but I'd like to.

"Danger--Human" by Gordon R. Dickson. It's been collected several times.

Chris
The Zygon
2018-03-06 06:43:56 UTC
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Raw Message
On Monday, March 5, 2018 at 9:25:56 PM UTC-5, Dimensional Traveler wrote:
> On 3/4/2018 8:38 PM, The Zygon wrote:
> > I once read a science fiction story of the last two human beings in the universe. The blew themselves up as well as a military force consisting of the other technologically advanced species of the galaxy which was hunting them.
> >
> > It turns out that human beings had built and lost a galaxy spanning empire a number of times. Each time the other species had united against humanity a number of times, each time fighting to mutual destruction. But this time, when they rebelled they other species won and decided to eliminate humanity. There was a hint in the story that they had sometime before tried the half-measure of restricting humans to one system, but the humans had broken out and set about to reconquer the galaxy. Unfortunately, I cannot recall the author or story name.
> >
> > While posting in another thread, I recaled how, in my youth, I used to love stories in which humans ruled the galaxy. Anyone recalls any good stories of this type?
> >
> I remember a golden age short story with a background of recurring human
> conquest of most of the galaxy, revolts by aliens driving humans back to
> one planet or a small sector, followed by humans breaking out again.
> After a couple of cycles of this the aliens figured out the best way to
> avoid this was to not interact with humans anymore. AT ALL. Leave the
> dangerous monkeys alone and they won't come out to conquer us. This
> works for some long number of generations with humans forgetting about
> aliens and humans becoming legendary boogie-men to the aliens. Until
> some new, curious species wants to know what all they fuss is about
> humans. So they capture one and put him in a cage to study. Finally
> the human, after many years of weakening the bars of his cage by
> secretly spitting on them (I did say MANY years), waits until a space
> rocket lands nearby and breaks out, hijacking the ship and running back
> to tell the rest of humanity about the bad aliens out there! The story
> ends with an observer from an "older, wiser" race telling the scientists
> of the younger, curious race (paraphrasing) "This is why we don't fuck
> with the humans."
>
> --
> Inquiring minds want to know while minds with a self-preservation
> instinct are running screaming.

Thanks for the reminder! I remember this story. Thanks. I cannot remember the last time I thought about this story.

It reminds me in the story collection _Limits_ by Larry Niven. It is collection of stories dedicated to the notion that human beings refuse to accept limits. They seem always eager to identify them - then defy them.
Scott Lurndal
2018-03-06 14:21:40 UTC
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Dimensional Traveler <***@sonic.net> writes:
>On 3/4/2018 8:38 PM, The Zygon wrote:
>> I once read a science fiction story of the last two human beings in the universe. The blew themselves up as well as a military force consisting of the other technologically advanced species of the galaxy which was hunting them.
>>
>> It turns out that human beings had built and lost a galaxy spanning empire a number of times. Each time the other species had united against humanity a number of times, each time fighting to mutual destruction. But this time, when they rebelled they other species won and decided to eliminate humanity. There was a hint in the story that they had sometime before tried the half-measure of restricting humans to one system, but the humans had broken out and set about to reconquer the galaxy. Unfortunately, I cannot recall the author or story name.
>>
>> While posting in another thread, I recaled how, in my youth, I used to love stories in which humans ruled the galaxy. Anyone recalls any good stories of this type?
>>
>I remember a golden age short story with a background of recurring human
>conquest of most of the galaxy, revolts by aliens driving humans back to
>one planet or a small sector, followed by humans breaking out again.
>After a couple of cycles of this the aliens figured out the best way to
>avoid this was to not interact with humans anymore. AT ALL. Leave the
>dangerous monkeys alone and they won't come out to conquer us. This
>works for some long number of generations with humans forgetting about
>aliens and humans becoming legendary boogie-men to the aliens. Until
>some new, curious species wants to know what all they fuss is about
>humans. So they capture one and put him in a cage to study. Finally
>the human, after many years of weakening the bars of his cage by
>secretly spitting on them (I did say MANY years), waits until a space
>rocket lands nearby and breaks out, hijacking the ship and running back
>to tell the rest of humanity about the bad aliens out there! The story
>ends with an observer from an "older, wiser" race telling the scientists
>of the younger, curious race (paraphrasing) "This is why we don't fuck
>with the humans."

_With Friends like These_, A.D. Foster.
tu160
2018-03-06 03:04:56 UTC
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On Sunday, March 4, 2018 at 9:38:41 PM UTC-7, The Zygon wrote:
> I once read a science fiction story of the last two human beings in the universe. The blew themselves up as well as a military force consisting of the other technologically advanced species of the galaxy which was hunting them.
>
> It turns out that human beings had built and lost a galaxy spanning empire a number of times. Each time the other species had united against humanity a number of times, each time fighting to mutual destruction. But this time, when they rebelled they other species won and decided to eliminate humanity. There was a hint in the story that they had sometime before tried the half-measure of restricting humans to one system, but the humans had broken out and set about to reconquer the galaxy. Unfortunately, I cannot recall the author or story name.
>
> While posting in another thread, I recaled how, in my youth, I used to love stories in which humans ruled the galaxy. Anyone recalls any good stories of this type?

Birthright: The Book of Man by Mike Resnick
The Zygon
2018-03-06 06:54:03 UTC
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On Monday, March 5, 2018 at 10:05:03 PM UTC-5, tu160 wrote:
> On Sunday, March 4, 2018 at 9:38:41 PM UTC-7, The Zygon wrote:
> > I once read a science fiction story of the last two human beings in the universe. The blew themselves up as well as a military force consisting of the other technologically advanced species of the galaxy which was hunting them.
> >
> > It turns out that human beings had built and lost a galaxy spanning empire a number of times. Each time the other species had united against humanity a number of times, each time fighting to mutual destruction. But this time, when they rebelled they other species won and decided to eliminate humanity. There was a hint in the story that they had sometime before tried the half-measure of restricting humans to one system, but the humans had broken out and set about to reconquer the galaxy. Unfortunately, I cannot recall the author or story name.
> >
> > While posting in another thread, I recaled how, in my youth, I used to love stories in which humans ruled the galaxy. Anyone recalls any good stories of this type?
>
> Birthright: The Book of Man by Mike Resnick

Yes. That book (series) changed my attitude towards the notion of a human ruled galaxy.
Anthony Nance
2018-03-07 19:26:22 UTC
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Raw Message
The Zygon <***@gmail.com> wrote:
> I once read a science fiction story of the last two human beings in the universe. The blew themselves up as well as a military force consisting of the other technologically advanced species of the galaxy which was hunting them.
>
> It turns out that human beings had built and lost a galaxy spanning empire a number of times. Each time the other species had united against humanity a number of times, each time fighting to mutual destruction. But this time, when they rebelled they other species won and decided to eliminate humanity. There was a hint in the story that they had sometime before tried the half-measure of restricting humans to one system, but the humans had broken out and set about to reconquer the galaxy. Unfortunately, I cannot recall the author or story name.
>
> While posting in another thread, I recaled how, in my youth, I used to love stories in which humans ruled the galaxy. Anyone recalls any good stories of this type?
>


I really enjoyed Glen Cook's The Dragon Never Sleeps, but in case
it matters on your end, the humans ruling the galaxy aren't portrayed
in super favorable terms.

I am mentioning Dickson's Childe Cycle (aka Dorsai stories), but
only tentatively so, since it has been a long time, and I'm not
sure there are any non-humans in those stories.

Not written, so just a question from/for my own curiosity:
Do humans rule the Star Wars universe?

Tony
Dorothy J Heydt
2018-03-07 20:12:48 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
In article <p7pecu$lcu$***@dont-email.me>,
Anthony Nance <***@math.ohio-state.edu> wrote:
>The Zygon <***@gmail.com> wrote:
>> I once read a science fiction story of the last two human beings in
>the universe. The blew themselves up as well as a military force
>consisting of the other technologically advanced species of the galaxy
>which was hunting them.
>>
>> It turns out that human beings had built and lost a galaxy spanning
>empire a number of times. Each time the other species had united
>against humanity a number of times, each time fighting to mutual
>destruction. But this time, when they rebelled they other species won
>and decided to eliminate humanity. There was a hint in the story that
>they had sometime before tried the half-measure of restricting humans to
>one system, but the humans had broken out and set about to reconquer the
>galaxy. Unfortunately, I cannot recall the author or story name.
>>
>> While posting in another thread, I recaled how, in my youth, I used
>to love stories in which humans ruled the galaxy. Anyone recalls any
>good stories of this type?
>>
>
>
>I really enjoyed Glen Cook's The Dragon Never Sleeps, but in case
>it matters on your end, the humans ruling the galaxy aren't portrayed
>in super favorable terms.
>
>I am mentioning Dickson's Childe Cycle (aka Dorsai stories), but
>only tentatively so, since it has been a long time, and I'm not
>sure there are any non-humans in those stories.
>
>Not written, so just a question from/for my own curiosity:
>Do humans rule the Star Wars universe?

They appear to rule the Empire. All its minions are human to
twelve points of classification. Diversity is reserved for the
Rebels.

But I haven't seen any of the newer films, so I may be wrong
here.

--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Dimensional Traveler
2018-03-07 20:39:15 UTC
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Raw Message
On 3/7/2018 11:26 AM, Anthony Nance wrote:
> The Zygon <***@gmail.com> wrote:
>> I once read a science fiction story of the last two human beings in the universe. The blew themselves up as well as a military force consisting of the other technologically advanced species of the galaxy which was hunting them.
>>
>> It turns out that human beings had built and lost a galaxy spanning empire a number of times. Each time the other species had united against humanity a number of times, each time fighting to mutual destruction. But this time, when they rebelled they other species won and decided to eliminate humanity. There was a hint in the story that they had sometime before tried the half-measure of restricting humans to one system, but the humans had broken out and set about to reconquer the galaxy. Unfortunately, I cannot recall the author or story name.
>>
>> While posting in another thread, I recaled how, in my youth, I used to love stories in which humans ruled the galaxy. Anyone recalls any good stories of this type?
>>
>
>
> I really enjoyed Glen Cook's The Dragon Never Sleeps, but in case
> it matters on your end, the humans ruling the galaxy aren't portrayed
> in super favorable terms.
>
> I am mentioning Dickson's Childe Cycle (aka Dorsai stories), but
> only tentatively so, since it has been a long time, and I'm not
> sure there are any non-humans in those stories.
>
> Not written, so just a question from/for my own curiosity:
> Do humans rule the Star Wars universe?
>
No. It isn't stated in the movies but in books that were considered
canon pre-Mouse it was stated that The Empire was a pro-human racist
government trying to establish human rule of the galaxy.


--
Inquiring minds want to know while minds with a self-preservation
instinct are running screaming.
The Zygon
2018-03-08 01:13:25 UTC
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Raw Message
On Wednesday, March 7, 2018 at 2:26:25 PM UTC-5, Anthony Nance wrote:
> The Zygon <***@gmail.com> wrote:
> > I once read a science fiction story of the last two human beings in the universe. The blew themselves up as well as a military force consisting of the other technologically advanced species of the galaxy which was hunting them.
> >
> > It turns out that human beings had built and lost a galaxy spanning empire a number of times. Each time the other species had united against humanity a number of times, each time fighting to mutual destruction. But this time, when they rebelled they other species won and decided to eliminate humanity. There was a hint in the story that they had sometime before tried the half-measure of restricting humans to one system, but the humans had broken out and set about to reconquer the galaxy. Unfortunately, I cannot recall the author or story name.
> >
> > While posting in another thread, I recaled how, in my youth, I used to love stories in which humans ruled the galaxy. Anyone recalls any good stories of this type?
> >
>
>
> I really enjoyed Glen Cook's The Dragon Never Sleeps, but in case
> it matters on your end, the humans ruling the galaxy aren't portrayed
> in super favorable terms.
>
> I am mentioning Dickson's Childe Cycle (aka Dorsai stories), but
> only tentatively so, since it has been a long time, and I'm not
> sure there are any non-humans in those stories.
>
> Not written, so just a question from/for my own curiosity:
> Do humans rule the Star Wars universe?
>
> Tony

The Dragon Never Sleeps is one of my top 10 books. The book seems perfect for a sequel. But that was never written. Even a prequel would have been great.
Quadibloc
2018-03-08 06:35:18 UTC
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In several of the movies, it appeared that they did when the Empire, rather
than the Republic or the Rebellion, was ruling the far-away galaxy in question.

So it wasn't a galaxy that was always ruled by humans, but one that was
occasionally ruled by a regime that, in addition to being tyrannical, was human-dominated.

When the galaxy was free, it was also more egalitarian.

As for the rest of the Universe, there's no indication the Star Wars
civilization had the means to go beyond their galaxy.

How they even managed to have any humans in their galaxy, then, given that humans evolved here on Earth, in a different galaxy from theirs, is something I put down to artistic license.
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