Discussion:
A criticism of post-apocalyptic fiction
Add Reply
Lynn McGuire
2017-04-12 21:40:14 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
A criticism of post-apocalyptic fiction from
http://www.ttgnet.com/journal/2017/04/11/tuesday-4-april-2017-2/

Lynn



"I read a lot of post-apocalyptic fiction. Most of it uses any of
several recurring memes, all of which make for a good (and
easy-to-write) story, but none of which are particularly realistic.
Here, in no particular order, are several of those memes:

Zombies

There is no such thing as a zombie. Enough said. Serious preppers may
tell you they’re preparing for a Zombie Apocalypse, but they aren’t
serious. That’s just shorthand for preparing for any eventuality.

Walking Home

The protagonist of these stories is often stranded hundreds or even
thousands of miles from home and loved ones, and proceeds to walk home.
He or they have many violent encounters, but always come through pretty
much unscathed. Using just what they have in their (usually outrageously
heavy) backpacks, they make it home after weeks or even months of
walking, conveniently finding everything they need to make the trip.

Some of these treks are more realistic than others, notably Franklin
Horton’s Borrowed World series and Angery American’s Home series, but
ultimately all of them are fantasies. The reality is that if the S
really HTF and you find yourself more than two or three days’ walk away
from home, you’re not going to make it unless you start that trek before
the majority of people realize what’s happened.

For example, if I were writing such a scenario and had Barbara stranded
down in Winston-Salem, 60 miles or so from home, I’m not going to have
her walk home. She’s in excellent shape for a woman her age, but even so
it’s just not practical. Instead, I’d have her walk some and hitch rides
when possible. Her trip back home won’t take weeks, let alone months.
Instead, she’ll leave the moment the Event occurs and arrive back home
in a day, if not later the same day. Better yet, she’d just drive home,
making the normal 1.5 hour trip in, oh, 1.5 hours.

Destruction of Electronics

The two best-known books based on this meme are David Crawford’s Lights
Out and William R. Forstchen’s One Second After. Both are better-written
than average for this genre. The problem is, their scenario is very
unlikely. There are two mechanisms for such an event:

o a Carrington-class solar storm (coronal mass ejection), which would
damage long transmission lines, transformers, and any AC equipment that
was connected, but not unconnected electronics, such as automobiles,
cell phones, pacemakers, etc. etc. The aftermath would be hideously bad,
but would not destroy all electronics, let alone electric motors and so
on. Note that a CME is predictable, and that the world would have
probably several days’ warning to take measures to minimize damage.

o a high-altitude nuclear electromagnetic pulse (HEMP or just EMP) event
would have extremely severe consequences, but the extent and level of
severity are unknowable, simply because it’s never happened. There are
simply so many variables that making even a rough prediction is
impossible. It’s safe to bet that a major EMP event would do incredible
damage to our electric power grid and any electric/electronic devices
connected to it, as well as many unconnected devices such as cell phones
and other portable electronics. As to vehicles, the common meme is that
all of them would be damaged beyond usability with the exception of
diesels and elderly gasoline vehicles, those made in 1980 or before,
which use carburetors and distributors rather than fuel-injection. In
reality, modern diesels would actually be as much (or as little)
affected as modern gasoline engines. My guess is that a significant
percentage of EFI gasoline engines would be unaffected, other than
perhaps requiring the battery to be disconnected and then reconnected to
cause the vehicle computer(s) to reboot. Those vehicle computers are
generally very well protected, in what amounts to Faraday cages.

Rawles’ Golden Hordes

In his books, Rawles was one of the first authors other than Pournelle
and Niven to predict ravening hordes of refugees flowing out of the
cities and into rural areas, where they’d overwhelm the locals. That’s
possible, of course, depending on the type of disaster that occurs. In a
financial collapse or similar widespread disaster, we’d probably see the
converse: people migrating from rural areas to the large cities, because
that’s where government disaster relief efforts would be concentrated.
Rural areas would be the last to get any such relief efforts, if indeed
they received any help at all.

Even in a worst-case scenario, such as terrorists setting off dirty
bombs in large cities, mass migrations to rural areas are unlikely. Most
ordinary people in the cities will wait too long before deciding to
evacuate, by which time it will be impossible to do so. Look what less
than an inch of snow did to Atlanta in 2014. Interstates literally
turned into parking lots, even though the event had been forecast well
in advance. A dirty bomb attack or similar event that occurred with no
notice would clog highways even faster. Accidents, disabled vehicles,
and all of the other things that happen in such circumstances would make
roads impassable, starting with the interstates and other main highways,
but quickly clogging even 2-lane roads.

What Rawles and others ignore is what I call the tenth-value distance.
How many miles of road is sufficient to cut the number of people down to
10% of the original number? That TVD obviously varies with the specifics
for an area. For the Triad and Charlotte populations trying to evacuate
towards Sparta, I estimated the TVD at 10 miles. In other words, if
100,000 people set out from the Triad heading towards Sparta, after 10
miles that’d be down to 10,000, after 20 miles down to 1,000, and so on.
After the 60 miles to Sparta, that original number of people would be
down to (0.1)e6, or one one-millionth of the original number. Call it
one tenth of a person would reach Sparta.

That’s the good news, at least for Sparta residents if not Triad
residents. The bad news is that the TVD applies to average people. The
TVD for really bad people–one percenter motorcycle gangs, inner-city
gangs, and so on–is much higher. Yeah, we’d see groups of them up here,
but there are plenty of Good Old Boys here, most of whom grew up hunting
and shooting. Gang members who decide to come up here to rob, rape, and
pillage would find themselves dead pretty quickly.

Bugging Out

The concept of bugging out is hugely popular in PA fiction, but the
reality is that it almost never makes sense to bug out except in a
disaster that’s very localized. If a train wreck dumps toxic chemicals
near your home or a huge wildfire is approaching, yes it makes sense to
bug out, but the idea of a very localized disaster with everywhere
outside the immediate area unaffected is, by definition, not an
apocalyptic scenario. In a widespread catastrophe, leaving your home and
going out on the road is simply stupid. At home, you have all of your
supplies and you are surrounded by people you’ve known for years.
Hunkering down preserves those advantages; bugging out gives up all of
them in exchange for the uncertainties of the road. Even if you have a
well-stocked bugout location, getting there is by no means certain. And
even if you do get there, there’s a good chance you’ll find it looted
and perhaps occupied by squatters. Hunkering down is far safer, even if
you’re in a suburb of a larger city. Making a run for it is not far from
suicidal.

Evil FEMA/DHS

PA authors love to cast FEMA/DHS as evil jackbooted thugs. The reality
is that they’re mostly ordinary people. In a catastrophe, they’ll being
doing their best to do their jobs. Sure there’ll be some petty
bureaucrats drunken with power who make things for refugees worse than
they might have been, and yes the realities of having to care for
thousands or tens of thousands of people will require them to enforce
strict rules, but the idea that FEMA/DHS will end up running
concentration camps, let alone death camps, is ridiculous. They won’t be
trying to make people miserable, let alone enslave them.

Not that things wouldn’t be miserable despite their best efforts. Even
if the country mobilized every resource available, the state and federal
governments simply don’t have sufficient resources to deal with even a
regional disaster, let alone one that’s nationwide. There simply isn’t
enough spare food sitting around to feed everyone, or pure water, or
spare electrical generation capacity, or drugs, or anything else.
Everything would be in extremely short supply, and conditions in such
refugee camps would soon become unspeakably bad. But don’t blame that on
FEMA/DHS. Just resolve to do what it takes to take care of yourself and
your family and friends, because if there is a large scale catastrophe
the last place you want to be is anywhere near a refugee camp.

Breakdown of Law

Another common meme is WROL (without rule of law). The idea that the
government becomes utterly incapable of enforcing even fundamental laws
like those against rape, robbery, and murder. Since they can’t or won’t
enforce such fundamental laws, plucky preppers have to do it themselves.
These preppers have no fear of ever facing charges for shooting people
out of hand and so on, because the government isn’t there any more.
Don’t count on it. State and local law enforcement may be overwhelmed
initially, and in fact probably would be. But they’ll still be there,
and when things begin to settle down they’re likely to show up at your
door and ask you some hard questions about that pile of bodies
surrounding your house. The metric will be “were these the actions of a
reasonable man?” Law enforcement, particularly in rural areas and small
towns, will tend to sympathize with ordinary people who were forced to
use lethal force to defend themselves, but that’s about as far as it
will go.

Isolated Cabins

PA novelists often fantasize about a family living in their retreat, a
self-sufficient homestead miles from their nearest neighbors. In
reality, such a site would be about as dangerous as living in a central
city. Maybe more so. Isolating yourself geographically from bad events
makes sense superficially, but only for as long as it takes you to
consider the implications. Being miles from your nearest neighbor
doesn’t mean the bad guys won’t find you. It just means the nearest help
is miles away. The bad guys, if they have the common sense of a turnip,
will ambush you, snipe you, and otherwise pick at you piecemeal until
they’ve eliminated your ability to defend yourself, which was pretty
limited to begin with. You’re on your own. No one is coming to help you.
You and your family will die alone, and the bad guys will eat everything
you have stored away and then move to the next isolated cabin and do it
again.

It’s far better to put yourself in a small-town/rural setting where you
have friends and neighbors. Not just for a common defense, but to share
skills, knowledge, and other resources. I know a lot about a lot, but I
don’t know everything about everything, and some or many of the things I
know nothing about may turn out to be critical. That’s why Barbara and I
chose to move where we did. There are a lot of people around here who
have useful/critical skills, and by becoming part of the community we
are preparing to share our own skills in the expectation that others
will do the same.

So I’m preparing for none of those scenarios because none of them are
very likely. Which brings me to the final common meme in PA novels, but
this one actually does make sense.

Doubling Up

What Rawles calls “doubling up” essentially means sharing not just your
skills but your living space with others who have complementary skills
and supplies. In a critical situation, when you’re surrounded by
potential threats, you need trusted people above all. You and your wife
aren’t enough. Even if you invite your extended family to stay with you
during an emergency, that’s probably not enough people. There’ll be
loads of work to do and not enough people to do it all. Finding
additional trustworthy people to be part of your group should be your
highest priority."
Cryptoengineer
2017-04-13 02:58:10 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Lynn McGuire
A criticism of post-apocalyptic fiction from
http://www.ttgnet.com/journal/2017/04/11/tuesday-4-april-2017-2/
Lynn
"I read a lot of post-apocalyptic fiction. Most of it uses any of
several recurring memes, all of which make for a good (and
easy-to-write) story, but none of which are particularly realistic.
Zombies
There is no such thing as a zombie. Enough said. Serious preppers may
tell you they’re preparing for a Zombie Apocalypse, but they
aren’t serious. That’s just shorthand for preparing for any
eventuality.
Walking Home
The protagonist of these stories is often stranded hundreds or even
thousands of miles from home and loved ones, and proceeds to walk
home. He or they have many violent encounters, but always come through
pretty much unscathed. Using just what they have in their (usually
outrageously heavy) backpacks, they make it home after weeks or even
months of walking, conveniently finding everything they need to make
the trip.
Some of these treks are more realistic than others, notably Franklin
Horton’s Borrowed World series and Angery American’s Home series,
but ultimately all of them are fantasies. The reality is that if the S
really HTF and you find yourself more than two or three days’ walk
away from home, you’re not going to make it unless you start that
trek before the majority of people realize what’s happened.
For example, if I were writing such a scenario and had Barbara
stranded down in Winston-Salem, 60 miles or so from home, I’m not
going to have her walk home. She’s in excellent shape for a woman
her age, but even so it’s just not practical. Instead, I’d have
her walk some and hitch rides when possible. Her trip back home
won’t take weeks, let alone months. Instead, she’ll leave the
moment the Event occurs and arrive back home in a day, if not later
the same day. Better yet, she’d just drive home, making the normal
1.5 hour trip in, oh, 1.5 hours.
Destruction of Electronics
The two best-known books based on this meme are David Crawford’s
Lights Out and William R. Forstchen’s One Second After. Both are
better-written than average for this genre. The problem is, their
o a Carrington-class solar storm (coronal mass ejection), which would
damage long transmission lines, transformers, and any AC equipment
that was connected, but not unconnected electronics, such as
automobiles, cell phones, pacemakers, etc. etc. The aftermath would be
hideously bad, but would not destroy all electronics, let alone
electric motors and so on. Note that a CME is predictable, and that
the world would have probably several days’ warning to take measures
to minimize damage.
o a high-altitude nuclear electromagnetic pulse (HEMP or just EMP)
event would have extremely severe consequences, but the extent and
level of severity are unknowable, simply because it’s never
happened. There are simply so many variables that making even a rough
prediction is impossible. It’s safe to bet that a major EMP event
would do incredible damage to our electric power grid and any
electric/electronic devices connected to it, as well as many
unconnected devices such as cell phones and other portable
electronics. As to vehicles, the common meme is that all of them would
be damaged beyond usability with the exception of diesels and elderly
gasoline vehicles, those made in 1980 or before, which use carburetors
and distributors rather than fuel-injection. In reality, modern
diesels would actually be as much (or as little) affected as modern
gasoline engines. My guess is that a significant percentage of EFI
gasoline engines would be unaffected, other than perhaps requiring the
battery to be disconnected and then reconnected to cause the vehicle
computer(s) to reboot. Those vehicle computers are generally very well
protected, in what amounts to Faraday cages.
Rawles’ Golden Hordes
In his books, Rawles was one of the first authors other than Pournelle
and Niven to predict ravening hordes of refugees flowing out of the
cities and into rural areas, where they’d overwhelm the locals.
That’s possible, of course, depending on the type of disaster that
occurs. In a financial collapse or similar widespread disaster, we’d
probably see the converse: people migrating from rural areas to the
large cities, because that’s where government disaster relief
efforts would be concentrated. Rural areas would be the last to get
any such relief efforts, if indeed they received any help at all.
Even in a worst-case scenario, such as terrorists setting off dirty
bombs in large cities, mass migrations to rural areas are unlikely.
Most ordinary people in the cities will wait too long before deciding
to evacuate, by which time it will be impossible to do so. Look what
less than an inch of snow did to Atlanta in 2014. Interstates
literally turned into parking lots, even though the event had been
forecast well in advance. A dirty bomb attack or similar event that
occurred with no notice would clog highways even faster. Accidents,
disabled vehicles, and all of the other things that happen in such
circumstances would make roads impassable, starting with the
interstates and other main highways, but quickly clogging even 2-lane
roads.
What Rawles and others ignore is what I call the tenth-value distance.
How many miles of road is sufficient to cut the number of people down
to 10% of the original number? That TVD obviously varies with the
specifics for an area. For the Triad and Charlotte populations trying
to evacuate towards Sparta, I estimated the TVD at 10 miles. In other
words, if 100,000 people set out from the Triad heading towards
Sparta, after 10 miles that’d be down to 10,000, after 20 miles down
to 1,000, and so on. After the 60 miles to Sparta, that original
number of people would be down to (0.1)e6, or one one-millionth of the
original number. Call it one tenth of a person would reach Sparta.
That’s the good news, at least for Sparta residents if not Triad
residents. The bad news is that the TVD applies to average people. The
TVD for really bad people–one percenter motorcycle gangs, inner-city
gangs, and so on–is much higher. Yeah, we’d see groups of them up
here, but there are plenty of Good Old Boys here, most of whom grew up
hunting and shooting. Gang members who decide to come up here to rob,
rape, and pillage would find themselves dead pretty quickly.
Bugging Out
The concept of bugging out is hugely popular in PA fiction, but the
reality is that it almost never makes sense to bug out except in a
disaster that’s very localized. If a train wreck dumps toxic
chemicals near your home or a huge wildfire is approaching, yes it
makes sense to bug out, but the idea of a very localized disaster with
everywhere outside the immediate area unaffected is, by definition,
not an apocalyptic scenario. In a widespread catastrophe, leaving your
home and going out on the road is simply stupid. At home, you have all
of your supplies and you are surrounded by people you’ve known for
years. Hunkering down preserves those advantages; bugging out gives up
all of them in exchange for the uncertainties of the road. Even if you
have a well-stocked bugout location, getting there is by no means
certain. And even if you do get there, there’s a good chance
you’ll find it looted and perhaps occupied by squatters. Hunkering
down is far safer, even if you’re in a suburb of a larger city.
Making a run for it is not far from suicidal.
Evil FEMA/DHS
PA authors love to cast FEMA/DHS as evil jackbooted thugs. The reality
is that they’re mostly ordinary people. In a catastrophe, they’ll
being doing their best to do their jobs. Sure there’ll be some petty
bureaucrats drunken with power who make things for refugees worse than
they might have been, and yes the realities of having to care for
thousands or tens of thousands of people will require them to enforce
strict rules, but the idea that FEMA/DHS will end up running
concentration camps, let alone death camps, is ridiculous. They
won’t be trying to make people miserable, let alone enslave them.
Not that things wouldn’t be miserable despite their best efforts.
Even if the country mobilized every resource available, the state and
federal governments simply don’t have sufficient resources to deal
with even a regional disaster, let alone one that’s nationwide.
There simply isn’t enough spare food sitting around to feed
everyone, or pure water, or spare electrical generation capacity, or
drugs, or anything else. Everything would be in extremely short
supply, and conditions in such refugee camps would soon become
unspeakably bad. But don’t blame that on FEMA/DHS. Just resolve to
do what it takes to take care of yourself and your family and friends,
because if there is a large scale catastrophe the last place you want
to be is anywhere near a refugee camp.
Breakdown of Law
Another common meme is WROL (without rule of law). The idea that the
government becomes utterly incapable of enforcing even fundamental
laws like those against rape, robbery, and murder. Since they can’t
or won’t enforce such fundamental laws, plucky preppers have to do
it themselves. These preppers have no fear of ever facing charges for
shooting people out of hand and so on, because the government isn’t
there any more. Don’t count on it. State and local law enforcement
may be overwhelmed initially, and in fact probably would be. But
they’ll still be there, and when things begin to settle down
they’re likely to show up at your door and ask you some hard
questions about that pile of bodies surrounding your house. The metric
will be “were these the actions of a reasonable man?” Law
enforcement, particularly in rural areas and small towns, will tend to
sympathize with ordinary people who were forced to use lethal force to
defend themselves, but that’s about as far as it will go.
Isolated Cabins
PA novelists often fantasize about a family living in their retreat, a
self-sufficient homestead miles from their nearest neighbors. In
reality, such a site would be about as dangerous as living in a
central city. Maybe more so. Isolating yourself geographically from
bad events makes sense superficially, but only for as long as it takes
you to consider the implications. Being miles from your nearest
neighbor doesn’t mean the bad guys won’t find you. It just means
the nearest help is miles away. The bad guys, if they have the common
sense of a turnip, will ambush you, snipe you, and otherwise pick at
you piecemeal until they’ve eliminated your ability to defend
yourself, which was pretty limited to begin with. You’re on your
own. No one is coming to help you. You and your family will die alone,
and the bad guys will eat everything you have stored away and then
move to the next isolated cabin and do it again.
It’s far better to put yourself in a small-town/rural setting where
you have friends and neighbors. Not just for a common defense, but to
share skills, knowledge, and other resources. I know a lot about a
lot, but I don’t know everything about everything, and some or many
of the things I know nothing about may turn out to be critical.
That’s why Barbara and I chose to move where we did. There are a lot
of people around here who have useful/critical skills, and by becoming
part of the community we are preparing to share our own skills in the
expectation that others will do the same.
So I’m preparing for none of those scenarios because none of them
are very likely. Which brings me to the final common meme in PA
novels, but this one actually does make sense.
Doubling Up
What Rawles calls “doubling up” essentially means sharing not just
your skills but your living space with others who have complementary
skills and supplies. In a critical situation, when you’re surrounded
by potential threats, you need trusted people above all. You and your
wife aren’t enough. Even if you invite your extended family to stay
with you during an emergency, that’s probably not enough people.
There’ll be loads of work to do and not enough people to do it all.
Finding additional trustworthy people to be part of your group should
be your highest priority."
Thanks, that was interesting and sane.

pt
David Johnston
2017-04-13 03:17:48 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Lynn McGuire
A criticism of post-apocalyptic fiction from
http://www.ttgnet.com/journal/2017/04/11/tuesday-4-april-2017-2/
Lynn
"I read a lot of post-apocalyptic fiction. Most of it uses any of
several recurring memes, all of which make for a good (and
easy-to-write) story, but none of which are particularly realistic.
Zombies
There is no such thing as a zombie. Enough said. Serious preppers may
tell you they’re preparing for a Zombie Apocalypse, but they aren’t
serious. That’s just shorthand for preparing for any eventuality.
Which is kind of missing the point. Zombies are stand-ins for a laundry
list of fears among which are infectious disease, angry mobs, collapse
of social order, loss of cognitive faculty and poor people. Zombies
don't exist but many of the things they represent do.
Don Kuenz
2017-04-13 20:55:12 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by David Johnston
Post by Lynn McGuire
A criticism of post-apocalyptic fiction from
http://www.ttgnet.com/journal/2017/04/11/tuesday-4-april-2017-2/
Lynn
"I read a lot of post-apocalyptic fiction. Most of it uses any of
several recurring memes, all of which make for a good (and
easy-to-write) story, but none of which are particularly realistic.
Zombies
There is no such thing as a zombie. Enough said. Serious preppers may
tell you they're preparing for a Zombie Apocalypse, but they aren't
serious. That's just shorthand for preparing for any eventuality.
Which is kind of missing the point. Zombies are stand-ins for a laundry
list of fears among which are infectious disease, angry mobs, collapse
of social order, loss of cognitive faculty and poor people. Zombies
don't exist but many of the things they represent do.
More grist for the mill:

Fear of the Walking Dead: The American Police State Takes Aim
https://www.rutherford.org/publications_resources/john_whiteheads_commentary/fear_of_the_walking_dead_the_american_police_state_takes_aim

In Kansas, Governor Sam Brownback has declared October
"Zombie Preparedness Month" in an effort to help the public
prepare for a possible zombie outbreak.
In New York, researchers at Cornell University have
concluded that the best place to hide from the walking
dead is the northern Rocky Mountains region. ...
Here's the curious thing, however: while zombies may be
the personification of our darkest fears, they embody the
government's paranoia about the citizenry as potential
threats that need to be monitored, tracked, surveilled,
sequestered, deterred, vanquished and rendered impotent. ...
The zombie exercises appear to be kitschy and fun
-government agents running around trying to put down a zombie
rebellion-but what if the zombies in the exercises are us, the
citizenry, viewed by those in power as mindless, voracious,
zombie hordes?

Thank you,

--
Don Kuenz KB7RPU
Sjouke Burry
2017-04-13 06:07:23 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Lynn McGuire
A criticism of post-apocalyptic fiction from
http://www.ttgnet.com/journal/2017/04/11/tuesday-4-april-2017-2/
Lynn
"I read a lot of post-apocalyptic fiction. Most of it uses any of
several recurring memes, all of which make for a good (and
easy-to-write) story, but none of which are particularly realistic.
to take measures to minimize damage.
CUT
Post by Lynn McGuire
o a high-altitude nuclear electromagnetic pulse (HEMP or just EMP) event
would have extremely severe consequences, but the extent and level of
severity are unknowable, simply because it’s never happened. There are
simply so many variables that making even a rough prediction is
impossible. It’s safe to bet that a major EMP event would do incredible
damage to our electric power grid and any electric/electronic devices
connected to it, as well as many unconnected devices such as cell phones
and other portable electronics. As to vehicles, the common meme is that
all of them would be damaged beyond usability with the exception of
diesels and elderly gasoline vehicles, those made in 1980 or before,
which use carburetors and distributors rather than fuel-injection. In
reality, modern diesels would actually be as much (or as little)
affected as modern gasoline engines. My guess is that a significant
percentage of EFI gasoline engines would be unaffected, other than
perhaps requiring the battery to be disconnected and then reconnected to
cause the vehicle computer(s) to reboot. Those vehicle computers are
generally very well protected, in what amounts to Faraday cages.
Cut

Emp HAS been seen, with nuclear air burst tests, blowing out electricity
networks (on Hawaii islands as I seem to remember).
Checking....... Yes Google for: emp damage Hawaii
And that was unintentional.
Had the altitude been much higher, it would have caused severe damage.
J. Clarke
2017-04-13 09:34:02 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by Lynn McGuire
A criticism of post-apocalyptic fiction from
http://www.ttgnet.com/journal/2017/04/11/tuesday-4-april-2017-2/
Lynn
"I read a lot of post-apocalyptic fiction. Most of it uses any of
several recurring memes, all of which make for a good (and
easy-to-write) story, but none of which are particularly realistic.
to take measures to minimize damage.
CUT
Post by Lynn McGuire
o a high-altitude nuclear electromagnetic pulse (HEMP or just EMP) event
would have extremely severe consequences, but the extent and level of
severity are unknowable, simply because it?s never happened. There are
simply so many variables that making even a rough prediction is
impossible. It?s safe to bet that a major EMP event would do incredible
damage to our electric power grid and any electric/electronic devices
connected to it, as well as many unconnected devices such as cell phones
and other portable electronics. As to vehicles, the common meme is that
all of them would be damaged beyond usability with the exception of
diesels and elderly gasoline vehicles, those made in 1980 or before,
which use carburetors and distributors rather than fuel-injection. In
reality, modern diesels would actually be as much (or as little)
affected as modern gasoline engines. My guess is that a significant
percentage of EFI gasoline engines would be unaffected, other than
perhaps requiring the battery to be disconnected and then reconnected to
cause the vehicle computer(s) to reboot. Those vehicle computers are
generally very well protected, in what amounts to Faraday cages.
Cut
Emp HAS been seen, with nuclear air burst tests, blowing out electricity
networks (on Hawaii islands as I seem to remember).
For certain values of "blowing out". A few traffic signals stopped
woirking and a few street lights burned out. Maybe it was due to the EMP,
maybe it was coincidence.
Post by Lynn McGuire
Checking....... Yes Google for: emp damage Hawaii
And that was unintentional.
Had the altitude been much higher, it would have caused severe damage.
What leads you to believe that this is the case?
Greg Goss
2017-04-13 12:06:56 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Lynn McGuire
Walking Home
The protagonist of these stories is often stranded hundreds or even
thousands of miles from home and loved ones, and proceeds to walk home.
He or they have many violent encounters, but always come through pretty
much unscathed. Using just what they have in their (usually outrageously
heavy) backpacks, they make it home after weeks or even months of
walking, conveniently finding everything they need to make the trip.
Some of these treks are more realistic than others, notably Franklin
Horton’s Borrowed World series and Angery American’s Home series, but
ultimately all of them are fantasies. The reality is that if the S
really HTF and you find yourself more than two or three days’ walk away
from home, you’re not going to make it unless you start that trek before
the majority of people realize what’s happened.
For example, if I were writing such a scenario and had Barbara stranded
down in Winston-Salem, 60 miles or so from home, I’m not going to have
her walk home. She’s in excellent shape for a woman her age, but even so
it’s just not practical. Instead, I’d have her walk some and hitch rides
when possible. Her trip back home won’t take weeks, let alone months.
Instead, she’ll leave the moment the Event occurs and arrive back home
in a day, if not later the same day. Better yet, she’d just drive home,
making the normal 1.5 hour trip in, oh, 1.5 hours.
In Lucifer's Hammer, Tim Hamner makes it to his observatory quite
early after the event. They don't let him in, though they offer to
accept his companion.
--
We are geeks. Resistance is voltage over current.
Greg Goss
2017-04-13 12:11:28 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Lynn McGuire
Even in a worst-case scenario, such as terrorists setting off dirty
bombs in large cities, mass migrations to rural areas are unlikely. Most
ordinary people in the cities will wait too long before deciding to
evacuate, by which time it will be impossible to do so. Look what less
than an inch of snow did to Atlanta in 2014.
A better example might be Houston in the run-up to hurricane Rita in
2005. My MIL got caught in that, but managed to make it to the
airport on minor roads.
--
We are geeks. Resistance is voltage over current.
James Nicoll
2017-04-13 13:36:24 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Greg Goss
Post by Lynn McGuire
Even in a worst-case scenario, such as terrorists setting off dirty
bombs in large cities, mass migrations to rural areas are unlikely. Most
ordinary people in the cities will wait too long before deciding to
evacuate, by which time it will be impossible to do so. Look what less
than an inch of snow did to Atlanta in 2014.
A better example might be Houston in the run-up to hurricane Rita in
2005. My MIL got caught in that, but managed to make it to the
airport on minor roads.
In 1979 Mississauga evacuated 200,000 people on short notice, a feat that
got newly elected Mayor Hazel McCallion reelected every election until
her retirement in 2014. "Did not allow disaster to kill significant
fraction of constituency" is apparently a popular platform. It was
the largest peacetime evacuation in North American history until New
Orleans in 2005 and of course handled with far more efficiency and
humanity than an American evacuation could be, due to differing
emergency doctrines.

Lessons learned include "it helps if you don't assume the evacuees are
a ravening mob of criminals", and "have as many 400-series highways
adjacent as possible". And a surprisingly high fraction of evacuees
had relatives outside the affected zone they could stay with.
--
My reviews can be found at http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/
My Livejournal at http://www.livejournal.com/users/james_nicoll
My patreon is at https://www.patreon.com/jamesdnicoll
William Hyde
2017-04-13 19:05:57 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by James Nicoll
Post by Greg Goss
Post by Lynn McGuire
Even in a worst-case scenario, such as terrorists setting off dirty
bombs in large cities, mass migrations to rural areas are unlikely. Most
ordinary people in the cities will wait too long before deciding to
evacuate, by which time it will be impossible to do so. Look what less
than an inch of snow did to Atlanta in 2014.
A better example might be Houston in the run-up to hurricane Rita in
2005. My MIL got caught in that, but managed to make it to the
airport on minor roads.
In 1979 Mississauga evacuated 200,000 people on short notice, a feat that
got newly elected Mayor Hazel McCallion reelected every election until
her retirement in 2014. "Did not allow disaster to kill significant
fraction of constituency" is apparently a popular platform. It was
the largest peacetime evacuation in North American history until New
Orleans in 2005 and of course handled with far more efficiency and
humanity than an American evacuation could be, due to differing
emergency doctrines.
Lessons learned include "it helps if you don't assume the evacuees are
a ravening mob of criminals", and "have as many 400-series highways
adjacent as possible". And a surprisingly high fraction of evacuees
had relatives outside the affected zone they could stay with.
A young couple I knew drove to my parent's house (about 20 miles) and stayed a couple of days. About as undramatic as things could get.

William Hyde
larry
2017-04-19 23:53:49 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by James Nicoll
Lessons learned include "it helps if you don't assume the evacuees are
a ravening mob of criminals", and "have as many 400-series highways
adjacent as possible". And a surprisingly high fraction of evacuees
had relatives outside the affected zone they could stay with.
In that we were a fifteen minute walk from the bleve we
took the strongly worded advice and stormstayed, with
my family across the creek, and m'lady with her family on
the other side of Toronto.
Peter Trei
2017-04-20 12:58:33 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by larry
Post by James Nicoll
Lessons learned include "it helps if you don't assume the evacuees are
a ravening mob of criminals", and "have as many 400-series highways
adjacent as possible". And a surprisingly high fraction of evacuees
had relatives outside the affected zone they could stay with.
In that we were a fifteen minute walk from the bleve we
took the strongly worded advice and stormstayed, with
my family across the creek, and m'lady with her family on
the other side of Toronto.
Could you unpack that a little? 'Stormstayed' == 'Shelter in place'?? (ie,
at home)?? Bleve? all that comes to mind is 'Boiling Liquid Explosive
Vapor Event' (ie, what happens when an LNG tank ruptures). Near Toronto?
When was this?

pt
Greg Goss
2017-04-21 13:58:33 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Peter Trei
Post by larry
Post by James Nicoll
Lessons learned include "it helps if you don't assume the evacuees are
a ravening mob of criminals", and "have as many 400-series highways
adjacent as possible". And a surprisingly high fraction of evacuees
had relatives outside the affected zone they could stay with.
In that we were a fifteen minute walk from the bleve we
took the strongly worded advice and stormstayed, with
my family across the creek, and m'lady with her family on
the other side of Toronto.
Could you unpack that a little? 'Stormstayed' == 'Shelter in place'?? (ie,
at home)?? Bleve? all that comes to mind is 'Boiling Liquid Explosive
Vapor Event' (ie, what happens when an LNG tank ruptures). Near Toronto?
When was this?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1979_Mississauga_train_derailment
--
We are geeks. Resistance is voltage over current.
Peter Trei
2017-04-21 14:59:04 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Greg Goss
Post by Peter Trei
Post by larry
Post by James Nicoll
Lessons learned include "it helps if you don't assume the evacuees are
a ravening mob of criminals", and "have as many 400-series highways
adjacent as possible". And a surprisingly high fraction of evacuees
had relatives outside the affected zone they could stay with.
In that we were a fifteen minute walk from the bleve we
took the strongly worded advice and stormstayed, with
my family across the creek, and m'lady with her family on
the other side of Toronto.
Could you unpack that a little? 'Stormstayed' == 'Shelter in place'?? (ie,
at home)?? Bleve? all that comes to mind is 'Boiling Liquid Explosive
Vapor Event' (ie, what happens when an LNG tank ruptures). Near Toronto?
When was this?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1979_Mississauga_train_derailment
OK, I didn't know about that one.

Stormstayed seems to be roughly equivalent to 'snowbound'.

pt
Richard Hershberger
2017-04-13 13:52:12 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Greg Goss
Post by Lynn McGuire
Even in a worst-case scenario, such as terrorists setting off dirty
bombs in large cities, mass migrations to rural areas are unlikely. Most
ordinary people in the cities will wait too long before deciding to
evacuate, by which time it will be impossible to do so. Look what less
than an inch of snow did to Atlanta in 2014.
A better example might be Houston in the run-up to hurricane Rita in
2005. My MIL got caught in that, but managed to make it to the
airport on minor roads.
I wonder if the minor roads strategy would work as well today. I take minor country roads on my daily commute. It works great. I could make the same trip on major roads, and absent any traffic problems that would be quicker. But those routes routinely have traffic backups. My favored route essentially never does for mere volume. The downside is that a tree limb coming down will shut down the road, and if the limb came down due to wider weather, my dinky country road will be at the bottom of the county's to-do list and it might take three days before they clear it. On the other hand, I have multiple alternate routes. There are a lot of dinky country roads.

The thing is, these roads don't go in straight lines. You can't just pick one that seems to be going in the direction you want to go and assume it will get you there. Back in the day you had to have either local knowledge or a good map. Nowadays, most people have GPS in one form or another. The upshot is that if everyone is trying to make it to the airport today, those minor roads won't just be limited to locals and people with good maps.

Of course if we are talking a proper post-apocalyptic scenario, GPS will be the first thing to go. Those of us with paper maps will be laughing our asses off as we fight off the zombies trying to take them from us.

Richard R. Hershberger
Greg Goss
2017-04-13 14:56:50 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Richard Hershberger
Post by Greg Goss
Post by Lynn McGuire
Even in a worst-case scenario, such as terrorists setting off dirty
bombs in large cities, mass migrations to rural areas are unlikely. Most
ordinary people in the cities will wait too long before deciding to
evacuate, by which time it will be impossible to do so. Look what less
than an inch of snow did to Atlanta in 2014.
A better example might be Houston in the run-up to hurricane Rita in
2005. My MIL got caught in that, but managed to make it to the
airport on minor roads.
I wonder if the minor roads strategy would work as well today. I take minor country roads on my daily commute. It works great. I could make the same trip on major roads, and absent any traffic problems that would be quicker. But those routes routinely have traffic backups. My favored route essentially never does for mere volume. The downside is that a tree limb coming down will shut down the road, and if the limb came down due to wider weather, my dinky country road will be at the bottom of the county's to-do list and it might take three days before they clear it. On the other hand, I have multiple alternate routes. There are a lot of dinky country roads.
The thing is, these roads don't go in straight lines. You can't just pick one that seems to be going in the direction you want to go and assume it will get you there. Back in the day you had to have either local knowledge or a good map. Nowadays, most people have GPS in one form or another. The upshot is that if everyone is trying to make it to the airport today, those minor roads won't just be limited to locals and people with good maps.
She asked the hotel concierge, who asked a few staff and a couple of
taxi drivers for directions. (The MIL had a rental car based at the
airport.)
Post by Richard Hershberger
Of course if we are talking a proper post-apocalyptic scenario, GPS will be the first thing to go. Those of us with paper maps will be laughing our asses off as we fight off the zombies trying to take them from us.
I have a couple of map books of my city from when I arrived in 2005.
However, my city has had major rebuilding, especially in my corner of
it, since then. I think it was 800,000 then and 1.2M now. And the
artery routings in my corner have suffered additional re-arranging due
to the shutdown of the biggest non-freeway artery in my quadrant due
to airport expansion. The 12 year old map book is almost irrelevant
for anything in the outer half (ring) of the city.
--
We are geeks. Resistance is voltage over current.
Peter Trei
2017-04-13 16:52:28 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Richard Hershberger
Post by Greg Goss
Post by Lynn McGuire
Even in a worst-case scenario, such as terrorists setting off dirty
bombs in large cities, mass migrations to rural areas are unlikely. Most
ordinary people in the cities will wait too long before deciding to
evacuate, by which time it will be impossible to do so. Look what less
than an inch of snow did to Atlanta in 2014.
A better example might be Houston in the run-up to hurricane Rita in
2005. My MIL got caught in that, but managed to make it to the
airport on minor roads.
I wonder if the minor roads strategy would work as well today. I take minor country roads on my daily commute. It works great. I could make the same trip on major roads, and absent any traffic problems that would be quicker. But those routes routinely have traffic backups. My favored route essentially never does for mere volume. The downside is that a tree limb coming down will shut down the road, and if the limb came down due to wider weather, my dinky country road will be at the bottom of the county's to-do list and it might take three days before they clear it. On the other hand, I have multiple alternate routes. There are a lot of dinky country roads.
When my neighborhood was cut off by downed trees and branches after a major
overnight icestorm a few years back, we were clear and could get out by noon;
not because of waiting for 'them' to clear it, but because most of us on that
road own chainsaws.
Post by Richard Hershberger
The thing is, these roads don't go in straight lines. You can't just pick one that seems to be going in the direction you want to go and assume it will get you there. Back in the day you had to have either local knowledge or a good map. Nowadays, most people have GPS in one form or another. The upshot is that if everyone is trying to make it to the airport today, those minor roads won't just be limited to locals and people with good maps.
I have two gps systems in my car - one built in, and one in my phone. But I
also have a printed road atlas in the trunk. Don't you?
Post by Richard Hershberger
Of course if we are talking a proper post-apocalyptic scenario, GPS will be the first thing to go. Those of us with paper maps will be laughing our asses off as we fight off the zombies trying to take them from us.
GPS satellites are up at 20,200 km. They're a *lot* further from an EMP nuke
blast than the ground is, and in the wrong direction to boot. The satellites
are probably going to be fine, for a while at least, as will GPS devices
not connected to long wires.

My phone one will be much less useful unless I've downloaded maps off the web,
but the car one uses a DVD.

pt
Quadibloc
2017-04-13 17:53:54 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Peter Trei
Post by Richard Hershberger
The downside is that a tree limb coming down will shut down the road, and
if the limb came down due to wider weather, my dinky country road will be
at the bottom of the county's to-do list and it might take three days
before they clear it. On the other hand, I have multiple alternate routes.
There are a lot of dinky country roads.
When my neighborhood was cut off by downed trees and branches after a major
overnight icestorm a few years back, we were clear and could get out by noon;
not because of waiting for 'them' to clear it, but because most of us on that
road own chainsaws.
The difference between a dinky country road and a dinky city road is that the
former may not _be_ part of a neighborhood where a lot of people live.

One can't really expect a farmer to keep the roads running beside his property
clear all the time, as the boundary of a quarter section is a lot of road.

John Savard
Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
2017-04-13 18:08:41 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
On Thursday, April 13, 2017 at 10:52:30 AM UTC-6, Peter Trei
On Thursday, April 13, 2017 at 9:52:14 AM UTC-4, Richard
Post by Richard Hershberger
The downside is that a tree limb coming down will shut down
the road, and if the limb came down due to wider weather, my
dinky country road will be at the bottom of the county's
to-do list and it might take three days before they clear it.
On the other hand, I have multiple alternate routes. There
are a lot of dinky country roads.
When my neighborhood was cut off by downed trees and branches
after a major overnight icestorm a few years back, we were
clear and could get out by noon; not because of waiting for
'them' to clear it, but because most of us on that road own
chainsaws.
The difference between a dinky country road and a dinky city
road is that the former may not _be_ part of a neighborhood
where a lot of people live.
One can't really expect a farmer to keep the roads running
beside his property clear all the time, as the boundary of a
quarter section is a lot of road.
You've clearly never known a farmer in snow country, with a snow
plow for his tractor. The road running by a quarter section only is
a qarter mile, generally speaking.
--
Terry Austin

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.
Peter Trei
2017-04-13 19:44:35 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
On Thursday, April 13, 2017 at 10:52:30 AM UTC-6, Peter Trei
On Thursday, April 13, 2017 at 9:52:14 AM UTC-4, Richard
Post by Richard Hershberger
The downside is that a tree limb coming down will shut down
the road, and if the limb came down due to wider weather, my
dinky country road will be at the bottom of the county's
to-do list and it might take three days before they clear it.
On the other hand, I have multiple alternate routes. There
are a lot of dinky country roads.
When my neighborhood was cut off by downed trees and branches
after a major overnight icestorm a few years back, we were
clear and could get out by noon; not because of waiting for
'them' to clear it, but because most of us on that road own
chainsaws.
The difference between a dinky country road and a dinky city
road is that the former may not _be_ part of a neighborhood
where a lot of people live.
One can't really expect a farmer to keep the roads running
beside his property clear all the time, as the boundary of a
quarter section is a lot of road.
You've clearly never known a farmer in snow country, with a snow
plow for his tractor. The road running by a quarter section only is
a qarter mile, generally speaking.
Hmm... lets clarify. A 'quarter section' is a quarter of a *square mile*,
and is half a mile on a side. Its true that you won't be more than a quarter
mile from the next intersection, in one direction or the other.

Out were quarter sections are used, there are a generally a lot fewer trees
than in New England.

I describe my area as 'exurban'. Not really, really rural, but far more so
than your standard 'suburb':

https://www.google.com/maps/@42.5531286,-71.864185,672m/data=!3m1!1e3

pt
Dorothy J Heydt
2017-04-13 20:11:33 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Peter Trei
GPS satellites are up at 20,200 km. They're a *lot* further from an EMP nuke
blast than the ground is, and in the wrong direction to boot. The satellites
are probably going to be fine, for a while at least, as will GPS devices
not connected to long wires.
But will anybody be able to receive their signals?
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Peter Trei
2017-04-13 20:40:19 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Peter Trei
GPS satellites are up at 20,200 km. They're a *lot* further from an EMP nuke
blast than the ground is, and in the wrong direction to boot. The satellites
are probably going to be fine, for a while at least, as will GPS devices
not connected to long wires.
But will anybody be able to receive their signals?
That's unclear. A GPS receiver is a radio receiver, usually connected directly
to an antenna. But the induced EMP signal depends on the length of the
conductor, and a GPS antenna can be very short.

pt
J. Clarke
2017-04-14 03:06:37 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Peter Trei
Post by Richard Hershberger
Post by Greg Goss
Post by Lynn McGuire
Even in a worst-case scenario, such as terrorists setting off dirty
bombs in large cities, mass migrations to rural areas are unlikely. Most
ordinary people in the cities will wait too long before deciding to
evacuate, by which time it will be impossible to do so. Look what less
than an inch of snow did to Atlanta in 2014.
A better example might be Houston in the run-up to hurricane Rita in
2005. My MIL got caught in that, but managed to make it to the
airport on minor roads.
I wonder if the minor roads strategy would work as well today. I take minor country roads on my daily commute. It works great. I could make the same trip on major roads, and absent any traffic problems that would be quicker. But those routes routinely have traffic backups. My favored route essentially never does for mere volume. The downside is that a tree limb coming down will shut down the road, and if the limb came down due to wider weather, my dinky country
road will be at the bottom of the county's to-do list and it might take three days before they clear it. On the other hand, I have multiple alternate routes. There are a lot of dinky country roads.
Post by Peter Trei
When my neighborhood was cut off by downed trees and branches after a major
overnight icestorm a few years back, we were clear and could get out by noon;
not because of waiting for 'them' to clear it, but because most of us on that
road own chainsaws.
Post by Richard Hershberger
The thing is, these roads don't go in straight lines. You can't just pick one that seems to be going in the direction you want to go and assume it will get you there. Back in the day you had to have either local knowledge or a good map. Nowadays, most people have GPS in one form or another. The upshot is that if everyone is trying to make it to the airport today, those minor roads won't just be limited to locals and people with good maps.
I have two gps systems in my car - one built in, and one in my phone. But I
also have a printed road atlas in the trunk. Don't you?
Post by Richard Hershberger
Of course if we are talking a proper post-apocalyptic scenario, GPS will be the first thing to go. Those of us with paper maps will be laughing our asses off as we fight off the zombies trying to take them from us.
GPS satellites are up at 20,200 km. They're a *lot* further from an EMP nuke
blast than the ground is, and in the wrong direction to boot. The satellites
are probably going to be fine, for a while at least, as will GPS devices
not connected to long wires.
Further, the GPS satellites _are_ military hardware and are part of the
system that provides a nuclear deterrent. I doubt that an EMP is going to
do much to them.
Post by Peter Trei
My phone one will be much less useful unless I've downloaded maps off the web,
but the car one uses a DVD.
My car one has its maps loaded from a flash drive.
Post by Peter Trei
pt
Gene Wirchenko
2017-04-13 19:01:44 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
On Thu, 13 Apr 2017 06:52:12 -0700 (PDT), Richard Hershberger
<***@gmail.com> wrote:

[snip]
Post by Richard Hershberger
Of course if we are talking a proper post-apocalyptic scenario, GPS
will be the first thing to go. Those of us with paper maps will be
laughing our asses off as we fight off the zombies trying to take them
from us.

I work part-time inventory counting. I also drive for the
company. I look for alternative routes since British Columbia is
rather mountainous. I use Google Maps in advance, because often,
paper maps of the sort made for tourists have the advantage of being
free but do not include many backroads.

There is a place on Highway 97 about midway between 100 Mile
House and Williams Lake that is infamous for accidents. The hgiway is
the only main road in the area. I have found two alternative routes
(suitable for non-snow use) that I hope I never have to try. (Why I
looked was because of a very severe accident where a man nearly had a
shoulder ripped off.)

Sincerely,

Gene Wirchenko
Greg Goss
2017-04-15 01:42:26 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Gene Wirchenko
I work part-time inventory counting. I also drive for the
company. I look for alternative routes since British Columbia is
rather mountainous. I use Google Maps in advance, because often,
paper maps of the sort made for tourists have the advantage of being
free but do not include many backroads.
I bought a used obscure hybrid car in the winter of early 2007. Since
it was a rare car, I ended up buying it from the next province over.
The route that Google suggested for my return trip after picking up
the car ran from just east of Nelson across to Kimberley.

The car had 5.5 inches of ground clearance and would occasionally run
into parking lot speed bumps.

The guy I bought the car from said he'd taken that "road" on a
motorbike one summer and barely made it. He considered it laughable
that Google would recommend it to a car driver in snow season.

Google now marks that road as "closed October to July" and doesn't
even recommend it as a shortcut even in August.
https://www.google.ca/maps/@49.6122382,-116.7356037,14z
--
We are geeks. Resistance is voltage over current.
Gene Wirchenko
2017-04-15 05:12:24 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Greg Goss
Post by Gene Wirchenko
I work part-time inventory counting. I also drive for the
company. I look for alternative routes since British Columbia is
rather mountainous. I use Google Maps in advance, because often,
paper maps of the sort made for tourists have the advantage of being
free but do not include many backroads.
I bought a used obscure hybrid car in the winter of early 2007. Since
it was a rare car, I ended up buying it from the next province over.
The route that Google suggested for my return trip after picking up
the car ran from just east of Nelson across to Kimberley.
The car had 5.5 inches of ground clearance and would occasionally run
into parking lot speed bumps.
The guy I bought the car from said he'd taken that "road" on a
motorbike one summer and barely made it. He considered it laughable
that Google would recommend it to a car driver in snow season.
Google now marks that road as "closed October to July" and doesn't
even recommend it as a shortcut even in August.
I looked. Yow! I would not have taken that road without knowing
what it was like.

I was not thinking of that "back" of backroads. It is silly when
there is no alternative route to the highway.

Sincerely,

Gene Wirchenko
J. Clarke
2017-04-15 12:25:01 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
In article <***@4ax.com>, ***@telus.net
says...
Post by Gene Wirchenko
Post by Greg Goss
Post by Gene Wirchenko
I work part-time inventory counting. I also drive for the
company. I look for alternative routes since British Columbia is
rather mountainous. I use Google Maps in advance, because often,
paper maps of the sort made for tourists have the advantage of being
free but do not include many backroads.
I bought a used obscure hybrid car in the winter of early 2007. Since
it was a rare car, I ended up buying it from the next province over.
The route that Google suggested for my return trip after picking up
the car ran from just east of Nelson across to Kimberley.
The car had 5.5 inches of ground clearance and would occasionally run
into parking lot speed bumps.
The guy I bought the car from said he'd taken that "road" on a
motorbike one summer and barely made it. He considered it laughable
that Google would recommend it to a car driver in snow season.
Google now marks that road as "closed October to July" and doesn't
even recommend it as a shortcut even in August.
I looked. Yow! I would not have taken that road without knowing
what it was like.
I was not thinking of that "back" of backroads. It is silly when
there is no alternative route to the highway.
If you follow the surface photos the Google camera car gave up after a
while.
Greg Goss
2017-04-15 15:57:07 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by J. Clarke
says...
Post by Gene Wirchenko
Post by Greg Goss
Post by Gene Wirchenko
I work part-time inventory counting. I also drive for the
company. I look for alternative routes since British Columbia is
rather mountainous. I use Google Maps in advance, because often,
paper maps of the sort made for tourists have the advantage of being
free but do not include many backroads.
I bought a used obscure hybrid car in the winter of early 2007. Since
it was a rare car, I ended up buying it from the next province over.
The route that Google suggested for my return trip after picking up
the car ran from just east of Nelson across to Kimberley.
The car had 5.5 inches of ground clearance and would occasionally run
into parking lot speed bumps.
The guy I bought the car from said he'd taken that "road" on a
motorbike one summer and barely made it. He considered it laughable
that Google would recommend it to a car driver in snow season.
Google now marks that road as "closed October to July" and doesn't
even recommend it as a shortcut even in August.
I looked. Yow! I would not have taken that road without knowing
what it was like.
I didn't actually take that road. In the 80s I used to live in the
region, and I'd never heard of that road, so I wouldn't trust it now.
I took the regular "Salmo Creston".

On the other hand, my parents talked about their honeymoon in 1952.
They took the Salmo Creston Skyway that I later used many times as a
steep but routine highway, and in the fifties, ... it wasn't.
Post by J. Clarke
Post by Gene Wirchenko
I was not thinking of that "back" of backroads. It is silly when
there is no alternative route to the highway.
If you follow the surface photos the Google camera car gave up after a
while.
--
We are geeks. Resistance is voltage over current.
Don Kuenz
2017-04-13 17:39:23 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Lynn McGuire
A criticism of post-apocalyptic fiction from
http://www.ttgnet.com/journal/2017/04/11/tuesday-4-april-2017-2/
<snip>

Here's some highlights from a recent blog post to provide grist for the
mill:

"About that Bug-Out Hideaway..." (Charles Hugh-Smith)
http://www.oftwominds.com/blogapr17/bug-out4-17.html

The intuitive solution to many, from the super-wealthy
on down, is some version of a hideaway in the woods ...
The Remote Cabin in the Woods: the Perfect Target for
Theft ...
Simply put, if humans are settled anywhere nearby,
nothing is remote or secret. ...
A local news story some years ago illustrated the
point: some luckless outsider's entire bug-out cabin was
stolen: not the contents, the entire cabin. The "owner"
returned to a bare concrete slab.
"Remote and secret" means "easy to steal": nobody
around, plenty of time to take the whole darn thing. ...

Thank you,

--
Don Kuenz KB7RPU
Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
2017-04-13 18:10:33 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Don Kuenz
A local news story some years ago illustrated the
point: some luckless outsider's entire bug-out cabin was
stolen: not the contents, the entire cabin. The "owner"
returned to a bare concrete slab.
Ted Kaczynski's cabin was taken by the feds as evidence. Last I
recall, it was on display in Washington, DC, intact.
--
Terry Austin

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.
Lynn McGuire
2017-04-13 18:12:07 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Lynn McGuire
A criticism of post-apocalyptic fiction from
http://www.ttgnet.com/journal/2017/04/11/tuesday-4-april-2017-2/
Lynn
"I read a lot of post-apocalyptic fiction. Most of it uses any of
several recurring memes, all of which make for a good (and
easy-to-write) story, but none of which are particularly realistic.
BTW, here is what I think that the major threat facing the USA is,
financial collapse. "CBO - The 2017 Long-Term Budget Outlook"

https://www.cbo.gov/system/files/115th-congress-2017-2018/reports/52480-ltbo.pdf

Lynn
William Hyde
2017-04-14 19:47:05 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Lynn McGuire
BTW, here is what I think that the major threat facing the USA is,
financial collapse. "CBO - The 2017 Long-Term Budget Outlook"
https://www.cbo.gov/system/files/115th-congress-2017-2018/reports/52480-ltbo.pdf
You really must be younger than you seem. I can recall many occasions on which one industrialized country or another was "facing financial collapse" and it has yet to happen in my lifetime. And if it does happen soon, it will be Italy, not the US.

Canada was "facing financial collapse" in 1993, with 32 cents of every tax dollar going to pay interest on the debt.

The wild, crazy, out-of-the-box answer? Spending restraint and modest tax increases (yes, there were protests and the end of the world was regularly predicted).

Of course, I wouldn't recommend anything so radical to our neighbors to the south, but I'm sure you can come up with your own solution.


William Hyde
Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
2017-04-14 20:39:15 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
On Thursday, April 13, 2017 at 2:12:24 PM UTC-4, Lynn McGuire
Post by Lynn McGuire
BTW, here is what I think that the major threat facing the USA
is, financial collapse. "CBO - The 2017 Long-Term Budget
Outlook"
https://www.cbo.gov/system/files/115th-congress-2017-2018/report
s/52480-ltbo.pdf
You really must be younger than you seem. I can recall many
occasions on which one industrialized country or another was
"facing financial collapse" and it has yet to happen in my
lifetime. And if it does happen soon, it will be Italy, not the
US.
Canada was "facing financial collapse" in 1993, with 32 cents of
every tax dollar going to pay interest on the debt.
The wild, crazy, out-of-the-box answer? Spending restraint and
modest tax increases (yes, there were protests and the end of
the world was regularly predicted).
Of course, I wouldn't recommend anything so radical to our
neighbors to the south, but I'm sure you can come up with your
own solution.
It's easy to predict The End Of The World And All Human
Civilization if you pick a single moment in time, and predict that
whatever current trends you can identify (or imagine) continue,
without change, indefinitely.

For instance, if you look at a particular family's finances, for
the specific week they sign the paperwork to buy a house, then
assume that they will be incuring several hundred thousand dollars
in debt _every_ week from then on, things will look pretty grim.

Many of the doom & gloom predictors have no clue they are doing
this.

Some know full well they are. They're usually the ones with a book
to sell.
--
Terry Austin

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.
Lynn McGuire
2017-04-14 21:12:15 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by William Hyde
Post by Lynn McGuire
BTW, here is what I think that the major threat facing the USA is,
financial collapse. "CBO - The 2017 Long-Term Budget Outlook"
https://www.cbo.gov/system/files/115th-congress-2017-2018/reports/52480-ltbo.pdf
You really must be younger than you seem. I can recall many occasions on which one industrialized country or another was "facing financial collapse" and it has yet to happen in my lifetime. And if it does happen soon, it will be Italy, not the US.
Canada was "facing financial collapse" in 1993, with 32 cents of every tax dollar going to pay interest on the debt.
The wild, crazy, out-of-the-box answer? Spending restraint and modest tax increases (yes, there were protests and the end of the world was regularly predicted).
Of course, I wouldn't recommend anything so radical to our neighbors to the south, but I'm sure you can come up with your own solution.
William Hyde
The USA is 10 to 20 years away from financial collapse. Maybe that road
will be reversed, I doubt it. The appeal to be Santa Claus is just too
alluring for many federal legislators.

http://www.cnsnews.com/news/article/terence-p-jeffrey/695391000000-feds-collect-record-income-taxes-through-march

When the USA dollar goes down, the reserve currency of the world goes
down. It will not be pretty.

Lynn
Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
2017-04-14 21:24:09 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Lynn McGuire
On Thursday, April 13, 2017 at 2:12:24 PM UTC-4, Lynn McGuire
Post by Lynn McGuire
BTW, here is what I think that the major threat facing the USA
is, financial collapse. "CBO - The 2017 Long-Term Budget
Outlook"
https://www.cbo.gov/system/files/115th-congress-2017-2018/repor
ts/52480-ltbo.pdf
You really must be younger than you seem. I can recall many
occasions on which one industrialized country or another was
"facing financial collapse" and it has yet to happen in my
lifetime. And if it does happen soon, it will be Italy, not
the US.
Canada was "facing financial collapse" in 1993, with 32 cents
of every tax dollar going to pay interest on the debt.
The wild, crazy, out-of-the-box answer? Spending restraint
and modest tax increases (yes, there were protests and the end
of the world was regularly predicted).
Of course, I wouldn't recommend anything so radical to our
neighbors to the south, but I'm sure you can come up with your
own solution.
William Hyde
The USA is 10 to 20 years away from financial collapse.
It has been for 50 years. I'm sure the final collapse will be cause
by flying cars running on desktop Linux powered by cold fusion.

Or maybe your expectations are colored by masturbatory fantasies.
--
Terry Austin

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.
l***@dimnakorr.com
2017-04-15 01:10:34 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
It has been for 50 years. I'm sure the final collapse will be cause
by flying cars running on desktop Linux powered by cold fusion.
Now I want to read a "The Year of Linux on the Deskopt" apocalypse
story.
--
Leif Roar Moldskred
No, this year for _certain_
Cryptoengineer
2017-04-15 02:12:43 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by l***@dimnakorr.com
Post by Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
It has been for 50 years. I'm sure the final collapse will be cause
by flying cars running on desktop Linux powered by cold fusion.
Now I want to read a "The Year of Linux on the Deskopt" apocalypse
story.
Not quite, but there is 'When Sysadmins ruled the Earth', but Cory
Doctorow.

Lynn would probably find it up his alley too.

pt
Ahasuerus
2017-04-15 04:21:07 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
[snip] there is 'When Sysadmins ruled the Earth', but Cory Doctorow.
Is it post-apocalyptic or merely dystopian?..
Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
2017-04-15 04:27:39 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
On Friday, April 14, 2017 at 10:12:50 PM UTC-4, Cryptoengineer
[snip] there is 'When Sysadmins ruled the Earth', but Cory
Doctorow.
Is it post-apocalyptic or merely dystopian?..
It apparently appeared in an anthology called “Wastelands: Stories of
the Apocalypse," so I'm going with post-apocalypitic.

For dystopic, you want Bastard Operator From Hell.
--
Terry Austin

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.
Gary R. Schmidt
2017-04-15 07:53:23 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Ahasuerus
[snip] there is 'When Sysadmins ruled the Earth', but Cory
Doctorow.
Is it post-apocalyptic or merely dystopian?..
It apparently appeared in an anthology called “Wastelands: Stories of
the Apocalypse," so I'm going with post-apocalypitic.
For dystopic, you want Bastard Operator From Hell.
Nah, that's just reality mixed with wish-fulfilment. (Back in the 1980s
I was often asked if I was or knew Simon :-) )

Cheers,
Gary B-)
--
When men talk to their friends, they insult each other.
They don't really mean it.
When women talk to their friends, they compliment each other.
They don't mean it either.
Dorothy J Heydt
2017-04-15 14:58:24 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
Post by Ahasuerus
[snip] there is 'When Sysadmins ruled the Earth', but Cory
Doctorow.
Is it post-apocalyptic or merely dystopian?..
It apparently appeared in an anthology called “Wastelands: Stories of
the Apocalypse," so I'm going with post-apocalypitic.
For dystopic, you want Bastard Operator From Hell.
Terry, are you familiar with this site?

http://www.rinkworks.com/stupid/

A long compendium of stupid things people have done, thought, or
said regarding computers. Hilarious in spots.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
2017-04-16 04:25:29 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Ahasuerus
[snip] there is 'When Sysadmins ruled the Earth', but Cory
Doctorow.
Is it post-apocalyptic or merely dystopian?..
Stories of the Apocalypse," so I'm going with post-apocalypitic.
For dystopic, you want Bastard Operator From Hell.
Terry, are you familiar with this site?
http://www.rinkworks.com/stupid/
A long compendium of stupid things people have done, thought, or
said regarding computers. Hilarious in spots.
I think I've run across it before. Computer stupidity is a pit with
no bottom.

"We recommend you not run this function even if we told you to."
--
Terry Austin

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.
Cryptoengineer
2017-04-16 05:46:15 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Ahasuerus
[snip] there is 'When Sysadmins ruled the Earth', but Cory
Doctorow.
Is it post-apocalyptic or merely dystopian?..
Stories of the Apocalypse," so I'm going with post-apocalypitic.
For dystopic, you want Bastard Operator From Hell.
Terry, are you familiar with this site?
http://www.rinkworks.com/stupid/
A long compendium of stupid things people have done, thought, or
said regarding computers. Hilarious in spots.
I think I've run across it before. Computer stupidity is a pit with
no bottom.
"We recommend you not run this function even if we told you to."
You can read it online. Legally: Cory has unusually (for a published
author) progresseive attitudes on copyright.

I would describe as During, and Post-Apocalyptic.

http://craphound.com/overclocked/Cory_Doctorow_-_Overclocked_-
_When_Sysadmins_Ruled_the_Earth.html

pt
Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
2017-04-17 01:18:13 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Cryptoengineer
Post by Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
On Friday, April 14, 2017 at 10:12:50 PM UTC-4,
[snip] there is 'When Sysadmins ruled the Earth', but Cory
Doctorow.
Is it post-apocalyptic or merely dystopian?..
Stories of the Apocalypse," so I'm going with
post-apocalypitic.
For dystopic, you want Bastard Operator From Hell.
Terry, are you familiar with this site?
http://www.rinkworks.com/stupid/
A long compendium of stupid things people have done, thought,
or said regarding computers. Hilarious in spots.
I think I've run across it before. Computer stupidity is a pit
with no bottom.
"We recommend you not run this function even if we told you
to."
You can read it online. Legally: Cory has unusually (for a
published author) progresseive attitudes on copyright.
What Cory Doctorow has is an agenda. And since he seems to be
making a living at it, more power to him.
--
Terry Austin

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.
Dimensional Traveler
2017-04-15 05:27:36 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Ahasuerus
[snip] there is 'When Sysadmins ruled the Earth', but Cory Doctorow.
Is it post-apocalyptic or merely dystopian?..
Post-apocalypse.
--
Some days you just don't have enough middle fingers!
Greg Goss
2017-04-15 16:12:54 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Dimensional Traveler
Post by Ahasuerus
[snip] there is 'When Sysadmins ruled the Earth', but Cory Doctorow.
Is it post-apocalyptic or merely dystopian?..
Post-apocalypse.
I distinguish during-apocalypse books like this one or Lucifer's
Hammer from post-apocalypse books like the Chrysalids.
--
We are geeks. Resistance is voltage over current.
Greg Goss
2017-04-15 16:11:37 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Ahasuerus
[snip] there is 'When Sysadmins ruled the Earth', but Cory Doctorow.
Is it post-apocalyptic or merely dystopian?..
It's during-apocalyptic.
--
We are geeks. Resistance is voltage over current.
Greg Goss
2017-04-15 16:11:12 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by l***@dimnakorr.com
Post by Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
It has been for 50 years. I'm sure the final collapse will be cause
by flying cars running on desktop Linux powered by cold fusion.
Now I want to read a "The Year of Linux on the Deskopt" apocalypse
story.
I know several people with Chromebooks. I have an android computer
running my video library next to my TV.

Linux is out there. Once when a professor mentioned Linux as a failed
idea, I pointed out that there were several dozen Linux computers in
pockets in the room, and that the non-Android phones were running on
the closely related BSD.
--
We are geeks. Resistance is voltage over current.
Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
2017-04-16 04:26:18 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Greg Goss
Post by l***@dimnakorr.com
Post by Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
It has been for 50 years. I'm sure the final collapse will be
cause by flying cars running on desktop Linux powered by cold
fusion.
Now I want to read a "The Year of Linux on the Deskopt"
apocalypse story.
I know several people with Chromebooks. I have an android
computer running my video library next to my TV.
Linux is out there. Once when a professor mentioned Linux as a
failed idea, I pointed out that there were several dozen Linux
computers in pockets in the room, and that the non-Android
phones were running on the closely related BSD.
None of which is Linux on the _Desktop_, which is still an idea whose
time has not yet come.
--
Terry Austin

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.
Greg Goss
2017-04-16 04:42:48 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
Post by Greg Goss
Post by l***@dimnakorr.com
Now I want to read a "The Year of Linux on the Deskopt"
apocalypse story.
I know several people with Chromebooks. I have an android
computer running my video library next to my TV.
...
Post by Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
None of which is Linux on the _Desktop_, which is still an idea whose
time has not yet come.
I consider full-function laptops to be close enough. I haven't made a
distinction between laptops and desktops since the middle nineties.
--
We are geeks. Resistance is voltage over current.
Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
2017-04-17 01:16:15 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Greg Goss
Post by Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
Post by Greg Goss
Post by l***@dimnakorr.com
Now I want to read a "The Year of Linux on the Deskopt"
apocalypse story.
I know several people with Chromebooks. I have an android
computer running my video library next to my TV.
...
Post by Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
None of which is Linux on the _Desktop_, which is still an idea
whose time has not yet come.
I consider full-function laptops to be close enough.
It's not especially common on those, either.
Post by Greg Goss
I haven't
made a distinction between laptops and desktops since the middle
nineties.
But then, you're an idiot.
--
Terry Austin

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.
Cryptoengineer
2017-04-17 01:26:47 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
Post by Greg Goss
Post by Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
Post by Greg Goss
Post by l***@dimnakorr.com
Now I want to read a "The Year of Linux on the Deskopt"
apocalypse story.
I know several people with Chromebooks. I have an android
computer running my video library next to my TV.
...
Post by Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
None of which is Linux on the _Desktop_, which is still an idea
whose time has not yet come.
I consider full-function laptops to be close enough.
It's not especially common on those, either.
Post by Greg Goss
I haven't
made a distinction between laptops and desktops since the middle
nineties.
But then, you're an idiot.
Its certainly true that "user" desktops, whether actual desktop machines,
or more commonly, laptop 'desktop replacements' tend to run Windows or
macOS in preference to Linux.

However, once you go a step back, to the servers, and all the other
machines that aren't directly in contact with users, Linux and variants
are the norm. I myself mostly work on Linux machines, although my laptop
runs Windows; that's simply convenient for email and web browsing, while
most of my 'real work' is done ssh'd into various Linux machines; I also
have a Centos VM which I can run on the laptop.

All of my personal machines dual boot, for similar reasons.

[But yeah, I'm a developer]

pt
Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
2017-04-17 03:06:27 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Cryptoengineer
Post by Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
Post by Greg Goss
Post by Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
Post by Greg Goss
Post by l***@dimnakorr.com
Now I want to read a "The Year of Linux on the Deskopt"
apocalypse story.
I know several people with Chromebooks. I have an android
computer running my video library next to my TV.
...
Post by Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
None of which is Linux on the _Desktop_, which is still an
idea whose time has not yet come.
I consider full-function laptops to be close enough.
It's not especially common on those, either.
Post by Greg Goss
I haven't
made a distinction between laptops and desktops since the
middle nineties.
But then, you're an idiot.
Its certainly true that "user" desktops, whether actual desktop
machines, or more commonly, laptop 'desktop replacements' tend
to run Windows or macOS in preference to Linux.
Tend to? Linux has never even come close to double digit
percentages. Hell, "Other" outranks it by 2:1.
Post by Cryptoengineer
However, once you go a step back, to the servers,
you are no longer talking about the desktop. Dance all you want,
for the ordinary user - the overwhelming majority of humanity -
Linux is not, never has been, and is unlikely to ever be, useful.
--
Terry Austin

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.
Greg Goss
2017-04-17 04:11:52 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
Post by Greg Goss
Post by Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
Post by Greg Goss
Post by l***@dimnakorr.com
Now I want to read a "The Year of Linux on the Deskopt"
apocalypse story.
I know several people with Chromebooks. I have an android
computer running my video library next to my TV.
...
Post by Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
None of which is Linux on the _Desktop_, which is still an idea
whose time has not yet come.
I consider full-function laptops to be close enough.
It's not especially common on those, either.
That's why I specified "chromebooks".
--
We are geeks. Resistance is voltage over current.
Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
2017-04-17 05:37:27 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Greg Goss
Post by Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
Post by Greg Goss
Post by Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
Post by Greg Goss
Post by l***@dimnakorr.com
Now I want to read a "The Year of Linux on the Deskopt"
apocalypse story.
I know several people with Chromebooks. I have an android
computer running my video library next to my TV.
...
Post by Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
None of which is Linux on the _Desktop_, which is still an idea
whose time has not yet come.
I consider full-function laptops to be close enough.
It's not especially common on those, either.
That's why I specified "chromebooks".
Which, themselves, aren't all that common.
--
Terry Austin

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.
larry
2017-04-21 12:18:58 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
Post by Greg Goss
That's why I specified "chromebooks".
Which, themselves, aren't all that common.
That varies - both our local libraries, which loan
chromebooks on two week-loans, and our public school
boards, who loan chromebooks for the school year to
students, have confidence in linux.
Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
2017-04-21 16:17:49 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
On 2017-04-17, Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
Post by Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
Post by Greg Goss
That's why I specified "chromebooks".
Which, themselves, aren't all that common.
That varies - both our local libraries, which loan
chromebooks on two week-loans, and our public school
boards, who loan chromebooks for the school year to
students, have confidence in linux.
And Apple used to be ubiquitious in schools, because they made deal-
deals with them. But they were still a single digit percentage of the
overall market. So are Chromebooks, as far as I can tell.
--
Terry Austin

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.
l***@dimnakorr.com
2017-04-16 10:15:54 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
None of which is Linux on the _Desktop_, which is still an idea whose
time has not yet come.
Arguably (I don't agree completely myself, but I can see why some might
make the argument), it's less a case of the time for Linux on the Desktop
not having come yet and more a case of the time of the Desktop having
already come to an end.

The "this is the year of Linux on the Desktop" line was always about the
_mainstream_ adoption of Linux as a desktop OS. (A certain breed of techno-
morlocks have been using it as a desktop OS since the late nineties, and
even back then we were dreaming about pulling the rest of you down into the
Abyss with us.) Today, though, the mainstream has to a certain extend
abandoned the Desktop as such, and moved to a combination of tablets /
phones and Web-applications.
--
Leif Roar Moldskred
J. Clarke
2017-04-16 10:49:59 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by l***@dimnakorr.com
Post by Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
None of which is Linux on the _Desktop_, which is still an idea whose
time has not yet come.
Arguably (I don't agree completely myself, but I can see why some might
make the argument), it's less a case of the time for Linux on the Desktop
not having come yet and more a case of the time of the Desktop having
already come to an end.
The "this is the year of Linux on the Desktop" line was always about the
_mainstream_ adoption of Linux as a desktop OS. (A certain breed of techno-
morlocks have been using it as a desktop OS since the late nineties, and
even back then we were dreaming about pulling the rest of you down into the
Abyss with us.) Today, though, the mainstream has to a certain extend
abandoned the Desktop as such, and moved to a combination of tablets /
phones and Web-applications.
Tablet/laptop/desktop are all the same if they're x86. We're issued
laptops by the company. Normally they sit in docking stations connected to
keyboards, mice, and dual monitors. Sometimes they move to a conference
room and are connected to a projector or large-screen monitor. They are
seldom used with their own keyboard and monitor unless somebody is working
from off-site.

Web apps are fine for consumer use but businesses with any tech savvy are
reluctant to trust senstive information to a server that they do not
control--we may use web apps but they run on our servers and are accessible
only from inside our firewall.

As for Linux, the trouble with Linux is that everybody is going to need to
be retrained to use Linux apps instead of Windows apps, tech staff is going
to have to be retrained to support Linux, and applications developed in-
house will have to be ported and some will have to be recreated from
scratch by reverse engineering. I'm sure at this point many businesses
would _love_ to be out from under Microsoft and their spyware and incessant
updates, but it just costs too much to make it happen.
Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
2017-04-17 01:23:14 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by J. Clarke
Post by l***@dimnakorr.com
Post by Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
None of which is Linux on the _Desktop_, which is still an
idea whose time has not yet come.
Arguably (I don't agree completely myself, but I can see why
some might make the argument), it's less a case of the time for
Linux on the Desktop not having come yet and more a case of the
time of the Desktop having already come to an end.
The "this is the year of Linux on the Desktop" line was always
about the _mainstream_ adoption of Linux as a desktop OS. (A
certain breed of techno- morlocks have been using it as a
desktop OS since the late nineties, and even back then we were
dreaming about pulling the rest of you down into the Abyss with
us.) Today, though, the mainstream has to a certain extend
abandoned the Desktop as such, and moved to a combination of
tablets / phones and Web-applications.
Tablet/laptop/desktop are all the same if they're x86.
Laptops and Desktops, more or less. Tablets are a fundamentally
different beast, when the primary interface is the touchscreen.
Post by J. Clarke
We're
issued laptops by the company. Normally they sit in docking
stations connected to keyboards, mice, and dual monitors.
Sometimes they move to a conference room and are connected to a
projector or large-screen monitor. They are seldom used with
their own keyboard and monitor unless somebody is working from
off-site.
Web apps are fine for consumer use but businesses with any tech
savvy are reluctant to trust senstive information to a server
that they do not control--we may use web apps but they run on
our servers and are accessible only from inside our firewall.
The cloud is greatly overrated, and regularly makes the news for
the various failure modes it has.
Post by J. Clarke
As for Linux, the trouble with Linux is that everybody is going
to need to be retrained to use Linux apps instead of Windows
apps, tech staff is going to have to be retrained to support
Linux, and applications developed in- house will have to be
ported and some will have to be recreated from scratch by
reverse engineering.
No, the problme with Linux is that it's supported by people who
either don't give a shit about usability, are absolutely convinced
that they, and only they, know what everyone wants in an interface,
or are actively hostile to the idea of "just anybody" being able to
use it (thus, eliminating the only thing that makes them feel
special.)
Post by J. Clarke
I'm sure at this point many businesses
would _love_ to be out from under Microsoft and their spyware
and incessant updates, but it just costs too much to make it
happen.
For values of "costs too much" that amount to "impossible for all
practical purposes."
--
Terry Austin

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.
Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
2017-04-17 01:19:09 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by l***@dimnakorr.com
Post by Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
None of which is Linux on the _Desktop_, which is still an idea
whose time has not yet come.
Arguably (I don't agree completely myself, but I can see why
some might make the argument), it's less a case of the time for
Linux on the Desktop not having come yet and more a case of the
time of the Desktop having already come to an end.
Heh.
--
Terry Austin

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.
Lynn McGuire
2017-04-17 02:15:40 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by l***@dimnakorr.com
Post by Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
None of which is Linux on the _Desktop_, which is still an idea whose
time has not yet come.
Arguably (I don't agree completely myself, but I can see why some might
make the argument), it's less a case of the time for Linux on the Desktop
not having come yet and more a case of the time of the Desktop having
already come to an end.
...

The desktop is leaving the mainstream and going into specialized work
for content creators (engineers, accountants, architects, etc, etc, etc)
and gamers. I am wondering when the desktop prices will start to rise
to reflect the lessor usage as the downward price drivers will finish
moving to internet devices (smartphones, tablets, maybe laptops).

Lynn
Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
2017-04-17 03:07:18 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by l***@dimnakorr.com
Post by Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
None of which is Linux on the _Desktop_, which is still an
idea whose time has not yet come.
Arguably (I don't agree completely myself, but I can see why
some might make the argument), it's less a case of the time for
Linux on the Desktop not having come yet and more a case of the
time of the Desktop having already come to an end.
...
The desktop is leaving the mainstream and going into specialized
work for content creators (engineers, accountants, architects,
etc, etc, etc) and gamers. I am wondering when the desktop
prices will start to rise to reflect the lessor usage as the
downward price drivers will finish moving to internet devices
(smartphones, tablets, maybe laptops).
Probably right after that collapse of all civilication you wank over
every night.
--
Terry Austin

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.
Gary R. Schmidt
2017-04-17 08:39:41 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by l***@dimnakorr.com
Post by Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
None of which is Linux on the _Desktop_, which is still an idea whose
time has not yet come.
Arguably (I don't agree completely myself, but I can see why some might
make the argument), it's less a case of the time for Linux on the Desktop
not having come yet and more a case of the time of the Desktop having
already come to an end.
...
The desktop is leaving the mainstream and going into specialized work
for content creators (engineers, accountants, architects, etc, etc, etc)
and gamers. I am wondering when the desktop prices will start to rise
to reflect the lessor usage as the downward price drivers will finish
moving to internet devices (smartphones, tablets, maybe laptops).
Those machines are usually referred to as "workstations" and have
always[1] commanded a price premium over a generic peecee. Even Dell
makes them.

Cheers,
Gary B-)

1 - For values of always that take into account the destruction of the
market for non-x86-based workstations by the ubiquity of x86-based
solutions.
--
When men talk to their friends, they insult each other.
They don't really mean it.
When women talk to their friends, they compliment each other.
They don't mean it either.
Quadibloc
2017-04-18 07:48:08 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by l***@dimnakorr.com
The "this is the year of Linux on the Desktop" line was always about the
_mainstream_ adoption of Linux as a desktop OS.
Well, the way Microsoft has been pushing its luck, what with forced updates
on Windows 10, and the extent to which the Macintosh has been fading into
obscurity, means that there's still hope for Linux yet.

Not that I'm holding my breath or anything, mind you.

John Savard
Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
2017-04-18 15:55:08 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
On Sunday, April 16, 2017 at 4:15:55 AM UTC-6,
Post by l***@dimnakorr.com
The "this is the year of Linux on the Desktop" line was always
about the _mainstream_ adoption of Linux as a desktop OS.
Well, the way Microsoft has been pushing its luck, what with
forced updates on Windows 10, and the extent to which the
Macintosh has been fading into obscurity, means that there's
still hope for Linux yet.
There's certainly a desperate need, but Linux is doing nothing to
meet it so far.
Not that I'm holding my breath or anything, mind you.
Me either.
--
Terry Austin

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.
news{@bestley.co.uk (Mark Bestley)
2017-04-18 17:05:44 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Quadibloc
Post by l***@dimnakorr.com
The "this is the year of Linux on the Desktop" line was always about the
_mainstream_ adoption of Linux as a desktop OS.
Well, the way Microsoft has been pushing its luck, what with forced updates
on Windows 10, and the extent to which the Macintosh has been fading into
obscurity, means that there's still hope for Linux yet.
Macintosh share of desktop/laptop is actually increasing.
Post by Quadibloc
Not that I'm holding my breath or anything, mind you.
John Savard
--
Mark
Quadibloc
2017-04-16 05:25:42 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
It has been for 50 years. I'm sure the final collapse will be cause
by flying cars running on desktop Linux powered by cold fusion.
Nonsense! Cold fusion, and maybe the other things too, are just what we need to
_prevent_ an economic collapse!

John Savard
William Hyde
2017-04-14 22:44:36 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by William Hyde
Post by Lynn McGuire
BTW, here is what I think that the major threat facing the USA is,
financial collapse. "CBO - The 2017 Long-Term Budget Outlook"
https://www.cbo.gov/system/files/115th-congress-2017-2018/reports/52480-ltbo.pdf
You really must be younger than you seem. I can recall many occasions on which one industrialized country or another was "facing financial collapse" and it has yet to happen in my lifetime. And if it does happen soon, it will be Italy, not the US.
Canada was "facing financial collapse" in 1993, with 32 cents of every tax dollar going to pay interest on the debt.
The wild, crazy, out-of-the-box answer? Spending restraint and modest tax increases (yes, there were protests and the end of the world was regularly predicted).
Of course, I wouldn't recommend anything so radical to our neighbors to the south, but I'm sure you can come up with your own solution.
William Hyde
The USA is 10 to 20 years away from financial collapse. Maybe that road
will be reversed, I doubt it. The appeal to be Santa Claus is just too
alluring for many federal legislators.
http://www.cnsnews.com/news/article/terence-p-jeffrey/695391000000-feds-collect-record-income-taxes-through-march
"The mission of the Media Research Center is to create a media culture in America where truth and liberty flourish"

I tend not to believe in the sincerity or honesty of any organization making a claim like this. This principle has served me well.

I'd place a bet against this scenario, but I probably won't be around in twenty years.

Plus by then, of course, US currency will be worthless! Worthless!

William Hyde
Lynn McGuire
2017-04-15 06:08:27 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by William Hyde
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by William Hyde
Post by Lynn McGuire
BTW, here is what I think that the major threat facing the USA is,
financial collapse. "CBO - The 2017 Long-Term Budget Outlook"
https://www.cbo.gov/system/files/115th-congress-2017-2018/reports/52480-ltbo.pdf
You really must be younger than you seem. I can recall many occasions on which one industrialized country or another was "facing financial collapse" and it has yet to happen in my lifetime. And if it does happen soon, it will be Italy, not the US.
Canada was "facing financial collapse" in 1993, with 32 cents of every tax dollar going to pay interest on the debt.
The wild, crazy, out-of-the-box answer? Spending restraint and modest tax increases (yes, there were protests and the end of the world was regularly predicted).
Of course, I wouldn't recommend anything so radical to our neighbors to the south, but I'm sure you can come up with your own solution.
William Hyde
The USA is 10 to 20 years away from financial collapse. Maybe that road
will be reversed, I doubt it. The appeal to be Santa Claus is just too
alluring for many federal legislators.
http://www.cnsnews.com/news/article/terence-p-jeffrey/695391000000-feds-collect-record-income-taxes-through-march
"The mission of the Media Research Center is to create a media culture in America where truth and liberty flourish"
I tend not to believe in the sincerity or honesty of any organization making a claim like this. This principle has served me well.
I'd place a bet against this scenario, but I probably won't be around in twenty years.
Plus by then, of course, US currency will be worthless! Worthless!
William Hyde
Numbers are numbers. The USA tax receipts are at record levels. The
USA federal deficit is at $20 trillion and still growing at 3 to 5
percent per year. Nobody is willing to make hard decisions as you state
that Canada did. Maybe things will change but I doubt it.

Hey, Bruce Sterling wrote a book about this, set in 2044.
https://www.amazon.com/Distraction-Bruce-Sterling/dp/0553104845/

Lynn
William Hyde
2017-04-15 09:32:39 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by William Hyde
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by William Hyde
Post by Lynn McGuire
BTW, here is what I think that the major threat facing the USA is,
financial collapse. "CBO - The 2017 Long-Term Budget Outlook"
https://www.cbo.gov/system/files/115th-congress-2017-2018/reports/52480-ltbo.pdf
You really must be younger than you seem. I can recall many occasions on which one industrialized country or another was "facing financial collapse" and it has yet to happen in my lifetime. And if it does happen soon, it will be Italy, not the US.
Canada was "facing financial collapse" in 1993, with 32 cents of every tax dollar going to pay interest on the debt.
The wild, crazy, out-of-the-box answer? Spending restraint and modest tax increases (yes, there were protests and the end of the world was regularly predicted).
Of course, I wouldn't recommend anything so radical to our neighbors to the south, but I'm sure you can come up with your own solution.
William Hyde
The USA is 10 to 20 years away from financial collapse. Maybe that road
will be reversed, I doubt it. The appeal to be Santa Claus is just too
alluring for many federal legislators.
http://www.cnsnews.com/news/article/terence-p-jeffrey/695391000000-feds-collect-record-income-taxes-through-march
"The mission of the Media Research Center is to create a media culture in America where truth and liberty flourish"
I tend not to believe in the sincerity or honesty of any organization making a claim like this. This principle has served me well.
I'd place a bet against this scenario, but I probably won't be around in twenty years.
Plus by then, of course, US currency will be worthless! Worthless!
William Hyde
Numbers are numbers.
In engineering, maybe. In budget forecasts, rarely. And any forecast going out more than a couple of years is generally worthless. Remember "Surpluses as far as the eye can see"? But the eye couldn't see the governor of Texas.

The USA tax receipts are at record levels.

Hardly surprising with the population and GDP at a record levels. If you want tax receipts to shrink, kick Florida out of the union. Or raise the fed rate to 10%. Problem solved.

Debt per capita and per unit of GDP is leveling off, as it usually does under democratic administrations. The next few years could be interesting, I admit.

But as Smith said, there is a lot of ruin in a nation.


The
Post by Lynn McGuire
USA federal deficit is at $20 trillion and still growing at 3 to 5
percent per year. Nobody is willing to make hard decisions as you state
that Canada did.
You did it at the same time, under Clinton. I am positive you can do it again.

A lot of things become easier when foreign money starts to flee the country.

William Hyde
Greg Goss
2017-04-15 16:16:26 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by Lynn McGuire
The USA is 10 to 20 years away from financial collapse. Maybe that road
will be reversed, I doubt it. The appeal to be Santa Claus is just too
alluring for many federal legislators.
Numbers are numbers. The USA tax receipts are at record levels. The
USA federal deficit is at $20 trillion and still growing at 3 to 5
percent per year. Nobody is willing to make hard decisions as you state
that Canada did. Maybe things will change but I doubt it.
Canada's decisions mainly involved cutting the military way back, even
from a fairly low starting point, and significant cutbacks on the
federal medical subsidy to the Provinces.

Under our constitution, medical issues are supposed to be run by the
provinces, but the introduction of single-payer medical coverage in
the sixties was done by the Feds offering to pay for much of it.

Depending on which province you lived in, the federal cutbacks may or
may not have hurt your medical care. My province was rich enough to
pick up the slack.
--
We are geeks. Resistance is voltage over current.
Greg Goss
2017-04-15 16:09:04 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Lynn McGuire
The USA is 10 to 20 years away from financial collapse. Maybe that road
will be reversed, I doubt it. The appeal to be Santa Claus is just too
alluring for many federal legislators.
http://www.cnsnews.com/news/article/terence-p-jeffrey/695391000000-feds-collect-record-income-taxes-through-march
When the USA dollar goes down, the reserve currency of the world goes
down. It will not be pretty.
I was a weimarist for much of the twokays. I still have a five
billion deutchmark note framed on my desk at the gold shop.

But the US (and world) economy survived the mortgage bubble. Heck,
even the original Weimar collapse was survived, though their attempt
at "let's take something" set them back more than their financial
collapse did.
--
We are geeks. Resistance is voltage over current.
Greg Goss
2017-04-15 16:05:37 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by William Hyde
Post by Lynn McGuire
BTW, here is what I think that the major threat facing the USA is,
financial collapse. "CBO - The 2017 Long-Term Budget Outlook"
https://www.cbo.gov/system/files/115th-congress-2017-2018/reports/52480-ltbo.pdf
You really must be younger than you seem. I can recall many occasions on which one industrialized country or another was "facing financial collapse" and it has yet to happen in my lifetime. And if it does happen soon, it will be Italy, not the US.
I like the acronym PIGS (where "I" can be Ireland or Italy, depending
on the author and the date.)

The write-ups seem to be more scared of Spain than Italy. "Greece is
small. Germany could bail out Greece. But if Greece got bailed out,
then Spain would be next and nobody can afford to bail out Spain."
Post by William Hyde
Canada was "facing financial collapse" in 1993, with 32 cents of every tax dollar going to pay interest on the debt.
The wild, crazy, out-of-the-box answer? Spending restraint and modest tax increases (yes, there were protests and the end of the world was regularly predicted).
The odd thing is that the recovery measures always seem to come from
the left. In Canada, Chretien did the cutbacks and turned Mulroney's
(and Trudeau Sr's) megaspending into a surplus. South of the border,
Clinton cut back on Reagan's megaspending and again came up with a
surplus, though some claim that Clinton's surplus came from taxes on
the dot-com bubble.
--
We are geeks. Resistance is voltage over current.
Lawrence Watt-Evans
2017-04-15 16:45:03 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Greg Goss
Post by William Hyde
The wild, crazy, out-of-the-box answer? Spending restraint and modest tax increases (yes, there were protests and the end of the world was regularly predicted).
The odd thing is that the recovery measures always seem to come from
the left. In Canada, Chretien did the cutbacks and turned Mulroney's
(and Trudeau Sr's) megaspending into a surplus. South of the border,
Clinton cut back on Reagan's megaspending and again came up with a
surplus, though some claim that Clinton's surplus came from taxes on
the dot-com bubble.
What's odd about it? Despite the idiot canards about "eventually you
run out of other people's money," the left knows stuff has to be paid
for. It's the right that thinks you can magically grow out of any
debt, no matter how vast, and keeps cutting taxes.

Clinton got the end of the Cold War to work with -- that probably
helped more than the dot-com boom.
--
My webpage is at http://www.watt-evans.com
William Hyde
2017-04-15 21:11:24 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Lawrence Watt-Evans
Post by Greg Goss
Post by William Hyde
The wild, crazy, out-of-the-box answer? Spending restraint and modest tax increases (yes, there were protests and the end of the world was regularly predicted).
The odd thing is that the recovery measures always seem to come from
the left. In Canada, Chretien did the cutbacks and turned Mulroney's
(and Trudeau Sr's) megaspending into a surplus. South of the border,
Clinton cut back on Reagan's megaspending and again came up with a
surplus, though some claim that Clinton's surplus came from taxes on
the dot-com bubble.
What's odd about it? Despite the idiot canards about "eventually you
run out of other people's money," the left knows stuff has to be paid
for. It's the right that thinks you can magically grow out of any
debt, no matter how vast, and keeps cutting taxes.
Clinton got the end of the Cold War to work with -- that probably
helped more than the dot-com boom.
He also raised taxes, as, to his credit, did GHW Bush.

William Hyde
Lawrence Watt-Evans
2017-04-15 21:39:24 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
On Sat, 15 Apr 2017 14:11:24 -0700 (PDT), William Hyde
Post by William Hyde
Post by Lawrence Watt-Evans
Post by Greg Goss
Post by William Hyde
The wild, crazy, out-of-the-box answer? Spending restraint and modest tax increases (yes, there were protests and the end of the world was regularly predicted).
The odd thing is that the recovery measures always seem to come from
the left. In Canada, Chretien did the cutbacks and turned Mulroney's
(and Trudeau Sr's) megaspending into a surplus. South of the border,
Clinton cut back on Reagan's megaspending and again came up with a
surplus, though some claim that Clinton's surplus came from taxes on
the dot-com bubble.
What's odd about it? Despite the idiot canards about "eventually you
run out of other people's money," the left knows stuff has to be paid
for. It's the right that thinks you can magically grow out of any
debt, no matter how vast, and keeps cutting taxes.
Clinton got the end of the Cold War to work with -- that probably
helped more than the dot-com boom.
He also raised taxes, as, to his credit, did GHW Bush.
True. And then Bush cut them again.
--
My webpage is at http://www.watt-evans.com
Lawrence Watt-Evans
2017-04-15 21:45:53 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
On Sat, 15 Apr 2017 17:39:24 -0400, Lawrence Watt-Evans
Post by Lawrence Watt-Evans
On Sat, 15 Apr 2017 14:11:24 -0700 (PDT), William Hyde
Post by William Hyde
Post by Lawrence Watt-Evans
Post by Greg Goss
Post by William Hyde
The wild, crazy, out-of-the-box answer? Spending restraint and modest tax increases (yes, there were protests and the end of the world was regularly predicted).
The odd thing is that the recovery measures always seem to come from
the left. In Canada, Chretien did the cutbacks and turned Mulroney's
(and Trudeau Sr's) megaspending into a surplus. South of the border,
Clinton cut back on Reagan's megaspending and again came up with a
surplus, though some claim that Clinton's surplus came from taxes on
the dot-com bubble.
What's odd about it? Despite the idiot canards about "eventually you
run out of other people's money," the left knows stuff has to be paid
for. It's the right that thinks you can magically grow out of any
debt, no matter how vast, and keeps cutting taxes.
Clinton got the end of the Cold War to work with -- that probably
helped more than the dot-com boom.
He also raised taxes, as, to his credit, did GHW Bush.
True. And then Bush cut them again.
Sorry, I should have specified Bush the Younger.
--
My webpage is at http://www.watt-evans.com
Loading...