Discussion:
Equality of the sexes in science fiction
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The Zygon
2018-04-07 04:57:57 UTC
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Has anyone ever read a science fiction story about a society in which men and women are really treated equally? I have read some in which it _said_ that men and women are equal. But one detects subtle differences in treatment in the story suggesting inequality.

The Federation in Star Trek is one such society. Men and women are supposedly treated equally. But I detect subtle, and sometimes no so subtle, hints that notions of chivalry still persist and women are not treated truly equally. There are also differences in treatment unrelated to the notion of "protection of women". However, I also noticed that the later the series, the less of it one sees. That was good trend.

I would also like to hear about cases where it is said that the sexes are equal, but you detect indications that they are not. Or found situations which flat out contradict the claim.
-dsr-
2018-04-07 11:02:46 UTC
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Post by The Zygon
Has anyone ever read a science fiction story about a society in which men and women are really treated equally? I have read some in which it _said_ that men and women are equal. But one detects subtle differences in treatment in the story suggesting inequality.
A few come to mind.

First, John Varley's Eight Worlds universe has cheap, convenient sex changing
universally available. There's no point in discriminating against someone for
being male or female, because they might be different next week.

Second, the Culture also has easy, free body transformations which results in
equality.

There are plenty of SFnal civilizations where biological sex is clearly
not an advantage or disadvantage: Weber's Honorverse seems to have about
as many women as men in political and military and economic leadership
roles. Civilizations with a bias are clearly less well-adjusted than Manticore.

Over in Brust's Dragaeran Empire, class and wealth differences are rampant but
gender equality appears to be the default.

-dsr-
h***@gmail.com
2018-04-07 11:37:09 UTC
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Post by The Zygon
Has anyone ever read a science fiction story about a society in which men and women are really treated equally? I have read some in which it _said_ that men and women are equal. But one detects subtle differences in treatment in the story suggesting inequality.
A few come to mind.
First, John Varley's Eight Worlds universe has cheap, convenient sex changing
universally available. There's no point in discriminating against someone for
being male or female, because they might be different next week.
Second, the Culture also has easy, free body transformations which results in
equality.
There are plenty of SFnal civilizations where biological sex is clearly
not an advantage or disadvantage: Weber's Honorverse seems to have about
as many women as men in political and military and economic leadership
roles. Civilizations with a bias are clearly less well-adjusted than Manticore.
But may be a lot more common.
Even in Manticore Honor's experiences in the academy suggest that the situation isn't perfect
Post by -dsr-
Over in Brust's Dragaeran Empire, class and wealth differences are rampant but
gender equality appears to be the default.
true for the dragaerians, not so sure about the easterners
David Bridgham
2018-04-07 13:24:37 UTC
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Post by The Zygon
Has anyone ever read a science fiction story about a society in which men and women are really treated equally? I have read some in which it _said_ that men and women are equal. But one detects subtle differences in treatment in the story suggesting inequality.
The Steerswoman series by Rosemary Kirstein comes to mind.
Wolffan
2018-04-07 16:14:16 UTC
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Post by The Zygon
Has anyone ever read a science fiction story about a society in which men and
women are really treated equally?
lots of them. Most of Weber’s and Drake’s and Stirling’s books have at
least relative gender equality _in some societies in the books_. This is NOT
to say that all in those societies is perfect; see further Honor Harrington
at the Academy in the first Honorverse book. This is NOT to say that other
societies are anything close to gender-nuetral; see pretty much the entire
_second_ Honorverse book. David Drake has long established that he really
doesn’t care what gender or orientation a character might have... unless
it’s important to the plot. Then he cares. Stirling _likes_ Bad Girls. See
further Gwen and Tayud and Adrienne and many, many more.
Post by The Zygon
I have read some in which it _said_ that
men and women are equal. But one detects subtle differences in treatment in
the story suggesting inequality.
Weber doesn’t do subtle; he named a character Rob S Pierre, and there’s a
reason why Honor’s initials are ‘HH'. Stirling does subtle when he feels
like it... but he also does matriarchies. Drake does 'bleed quietly and
don’t bother me or I’ll hurt you'.
Dorothy J Heydt
2018-04-07 16:19:02 UTC
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Post by The Zygon
Has anyone ever read a science fiction story about a society in which
men and women are really treated equally? I have read some in which it
_said_ that men and women are equal. But one detects subtle differences
in treatment in the story suggesting inequality.
The Federation in Star Trek is one such society. Men and women are
supposedly treated equally. But I detect subtle, and sometimes no so
subtle, hints that notions of chivalry still persist and women are not
treated truly equally. There are also differences in treatment
unrelated to the notion of "protection of women". However, I also
noticed that the later the series, the less of it one sees. That was
good trend.
I'll point out that ST:TOS aired in 1966. That in the original
pilot, "Number One" (Majel Barrett) was the first officer, and
the suits at the network wouldn't buy it. So Roddenberry
tinkered with the crew list some more; and the suits were willing
to accept a male second-in-command with pointy ears.

Roddenberry was ahead of his time. He pushed the edge of what
the networks would stand for as long as he lived; sometimes
successfully, sometimes not.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
m***@sky.com
2018-04-07 17:48:04 UTC
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Post by The Zygon
Has anyone ever read a science fiction story about a society in which men and women are really treated equally? I have read some in which it _said_ that men and women are equal. But one detects subtle differences in treatment in the story suggesting inequality.
The Federation in Star Trek is one such society. Men and women are supposedly treated equally. But I detect subtle, and sometimes no so subtle, hints that notions of chivalry still persist and women are not treated truly equally. There are also differences in treatment unrelated to the notion of "protection of women". However, I also noticed that the later the series, the less of it one sees. That was good trend.
I would also like to hear about cases where it is said that the sexes are equal, but you detect indications that they are not. Or found situations which flat out contradict the claim.
In E.E.Smith's Universe of the Lens, we are told that sexual equality is a characteristic of civilization, and the Boskonian races typically have one dominant sex, with the Kalonians being told to groom the Lyranians for prominence for precisely this reason. However, by the standards of our time, human civilization would have a hard time even proving equality of opportunity, because women don't serve in the armed services and (with one exception) don't become Lensmen. This of course gives us the opportunity of denouncing E.E.Smith as a sexist pig and thereby proving that we have the only possible right answer to the associated problems. In fact, I suspect that there are several different groups, each with mutually inconsistent right answers, who would be prepared to do this :-)
p***@hotmail.com
2018-04-11 23:26:50 UTC
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Post by The Zygon
Has anyone ever read a science fiction story about a society in which men and women are really treated equally? I have read some in which it _said_ that men and women are equal. But one detects subtle differences in treatment in the story suggesting inequality.
I would also like to hear about cases where it is said that the sexes are equal, but you detect indications that they are not. Or found situations which flat out contradict the claim.
In E.E.Smith's Universe of the Lens, we are told that sexual equality is a characteristic of civilization, and the Boskonian races typically have one dominant sex, with the Kalonians being told to groom the Lyranians for prominence for precisely this reason. However, by the standards of our time, human civilization would have a hard time even proving equality of opportunity, because women don't serve in the armed services and (with one exception) don't become Lensmen.
Nit-pick: If you consider the Galactic Patrol itself to be an armed
service, while women do not serve in the combat branches of the Patrol,
they do serve in the medical branch. In _Galactic Patrol_ it is mentioned
specifically that head nurse Clarissa MacDougal is a commissioned officer
of the Patrol and has the authority to accept the surrender of a group
of Boskonian defectors.

Peter Wezeman
anti-social Darwinist
The Zygon
2018-04-14 04:17:24 UTC
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Post by m***@sky.com
Post by The Zygon
Has anyone ever read a science fiction story about a society in which men and women are really treated equally? I have read some in which it _said_ that men and women are equal. But one detects subtle differences in treatment in the story suggesting inequality.
I would also like to hear about cases where it is said that the sexes are equal, but you detect indications that they are not. Or found situations which flat out contradict the claim.
In E.E.Smith's Universe of the Lens, we are told that sexual equality is a characteristic of civilization, and the Boskonian races typically have one dominant sex, with the Kalonians being told to groom the Lyranians for prominence for precisely this reason. However, by the standards of our time, human civilization would have a hard time even proving equality of opportunity, because women don't serve in the armed services and (with one exception) don't become Lensmen.
Nit-pick: If you consider the Galactic Patrol itself to be an armed
service, while women do not serve in the combat branches of the Patrol,
they do serve in the medical branch. In _Galactic Patrol_ it is mentioned
specifically that head nurse Clarissa MacDougal is a commissioned officer
of the Patrol and has the authority to accept the surrender of a group
of Boskonian defectors.
Peter Wezeman
anti-social Darwinist
I too consider the Lensman universe to be one in which claimed equality is not quite consistent with all the facts we have about that universe.
Christian Weisgerber
2018-04-07 19:20:50 UTC
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Post by The Zygon
Has anyone ever read a science fiction story about a society in which men and women are really treated equally? I have read some in which it _said_ that men and women are equal. But one detects subtle differences in treatment in the story suggesting inequality.
How about stories where humans have gengineered themselves to reduce
sexual dimorphism? Sounds like a thing Iain M. Banks might mention
in passing about the Culture.
--
Christian "naddy" Weisgerber ***@mips.inka.de
Ted Nolan <tednolan>
2018-04-07 20:49:35 UTC
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Post by The Zygon
Post by The Zygon
Has anyone ever read a science fiction story about a society in which
men and women are really treated equally? I have read some in which it
_said_ that men and women are equal. But one detects subtle differences
in treatment in the story suggesting inequality.
How about stories where humans have gengineered themselves to reduce
sexual dimorphism? Sounds like a thing Iain M. Banks might mention
in passing about the Culture.
Or alternately, Niven't "boys" & "girls" from _A World Out Of Time_.
Seperate but equal.
--
------
columbiaclosings.com
What's not in Columbia anymore..
Greg Goss
2018-04-09 00:16:44 UTC
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Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Post by The Zygon
Post by The Zygon
Has anyone ever read a science fiction story about a society in which
men and women are really treated equally? I have read some in which it
_said_ that men and women are equal. But one detects subtle differences
in treatment in the story suggesting inequality.
How about stories where humans have gengineered themselves to reduce
sexual dimorphism? Sounds like a thing Iain M. Banks might mention
in passing about the Culture.
Or alternately, Niven't "boys" & "girls" from _A World Out Of Time_.
Seperate but equal.
I think that's a quite different answer than everyone had in mind.
The girls controlled the breeding stock, but the boys controlled the
sky in an abruptly unstable solar system.
--
We are geeks. Resistance is voltage over current.
The Zygon
2018-04-10 07:00:01 UTC
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Post by Christian Weisgerber
Post by The Zygon
Has anyone ever read a science fiction story about a society in which men and women are really treated equally? I have read some in which it _said_ that men and women are equal. But one detects subtle differences in treatment in the story suggesting inequality.
How about stories where humans have gengineered themselves to reduce
sexual dimorphism? Sounds like a thing Iain M. Banks might mention
in passing about the Culture.
--
Since they could switch sexes, I would think that alone would encourage equality of the sexes.
Robert Carnegie
2018-04-10 21:51:41 UTC
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Post by The Zygon
Post by Christian Weisgerber
Post by The Zygon
Has anyone ever read a science fiction story about a society in which men and women are really treated equally? I have read some in which it _said_ that men and women are equal. But one detects subtle differences in treatment in the story suggesting inequality.
How about stories where humans have gengineered themselves to reduce
sexual dimorphism? Sounds like a thing Iain M. Banks might mention
in passing about the Culture.
--
Since they could switch sexes, I would think that alone
would encourage equality of the sexes.
But in the setting, can you change what sex your mind is?
If it happens, is that a deliberate choice or an involuntary
evolution?

n real life, it doesn't seem that Earth women are seizing
equality by being turned into men. That is not a solution.
-dsr-
2018-04-10 23:06:53 UTC
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Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by The Zygon
Post by Christian Weisgerber
Post by The Zygon
Has anyone ever read a science fiction story about a society in which men and women are really treated equally? I have read some in which it _said_ that men and women are equal. But one detects subtle differences in treatment in the story suggesting inequality.
How about stories where humans have gengineered themselves to reduce
sexual dimorphism? Sounds like a thing Iain M. Banks might mention
in passing about the Culture.
--
Since they could switch sexes, I would think that alone
would encourage equality of the sexes.
But in the setting, can you change what sex your mind is?
If it happens, is that a deliberate choice or an involuntary
evolution?
In the setting, the question doesn't come up. People are people, and
they don't have a male mind or a female mind. They have male or female
bodies. Or hermaphrodite, or neuter, or probably a bunch of other things.
Post by Robert Carnegie
n real life, it doesn't seem that Earth women are seizing
equality by being turned into men. That is not a solution.
I think this is supposed to be a slur against sexual reassignment surgery,
but it's not too clear. Would you like to be more clear, and thus either
more or less callous?

-dsr-
Robert Carnegie
2018-04-11 03:21:03 UTC
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Post by -dsr-
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by The Zygon
Post by Christian Weisgerber
Post by The Zygon
Has anyone ever read a science fiction story about a society in which men and women are really treated equally? I have read some in which it _said_ that men and women are equal. But one detects subtle differences in treatment in the story suggesting inequality.
How about stories where humans have gengineered themselves to reduce
sexual dimorphism? Sounds like a thing Iain M. Banks might mention
in passing about the Culture.
--
Since they could switch sexes, I would think that alone
would encourage equality of the sexes.
But in the setting, can you change what sex your mind is?
If it happens, is that a deliberate choice or an involuntary
evolution?
In the setting, the question doesn't come up. People are people, and
they don't have a male mind or a female mind. They have male or female
bodies. Or hermaphrodite, or neuter, or probably a bunch of other things.
Post by Robert Carnegie
[In] real life, it doesn't seem that Earth women are seizing
equality by being turned into men. That is not a solution.
I think this is supposed to be a slur against sexual reassignment surgery,
but it's not too clear. Would you like to be more clear, and thus either
more or less callous?
My arbitrary premise - which I don't actually expect to be accurate,
given the history of other such ideas, but which gets a handle on
the subject - on <https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/gender-dysphoria/>
is: natural selection has operated on the evolution of homo sapiens
to produce individuals mentally and physically to function as
reproductive males, or as females, or, in the case of Bertie Wooster,
as drones. Each outcome depends on effects of genes and hormones
during foetal development, and later - this needn't be the whole
story, but it leads to most of us being born with an identifiable
sex physiologically - but it isn't a perfect process, and a significant
number of us are born with ambiguous bits (and not necessarily
allowed to stay that way).

Our brain is not visible at birth and its sexual identity may be
not directly detectable, but that doesn't mean that it doesn't have
a sexual identity, nor, on the other hand, that it is reliably binary.

I think this isn't going where I wanted it to. My point is
that generally - as far as I know - female feminists don't want
to be men; they want to be women but without suffering arbitrary
disadvantages in society imposed on women. Although they may
also want to wear trousers... but in a few years from now, that
may be uncontroversial.

A flaw in my argument is that even the British NHS doesn't offer
free sex reassignment surgery to women just to improve their chance
of a promotion at work or as an arbitrary personal choice, and
Iain M. Banks's fictional Culture basically does. So in fact it
can be said that a reason for most women not becoming men to avoid
sexual discrimination is that it is not made convenient to do it.
But if it was made convenient, what would be the additional take-up?
David DeLaney
2018-04-11 07:27:56 UTC
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Post by Robert Carnegie
to produce individuals mentally and physically to function as
reproductive males, or as females, or, in the case of Bertie Wooster,
as drones.
ObFantasy: Carriger's _Soulless_ series and its sequelae. Vampires and
werewolves and the protagonist, who is neither, and who can nullify either
one by touch. The relevant part being that master vampires gather a coterie
of drones as their household; the one we encounter most, well, his are good-
looking young men...
Post by Robert Carnegie
Each outcome depends on effects of genes and hormones
during foetal development, and later - this needn't be the whole
story, but it leads to most of us being born with an identifiable
sex physiologically - but it isn't a perfect process, and a significant
number of us are born with ambiguous bits (and not necessarily
allowed to stay that way).
So what's gonna happen when the mind is gestated digitally, and eventually
loaded into a cloned-style body if it wants to be? How many genders can you
have in eleven dimensions? (See also the spren in Sanderson's Way of Kings
setting, which reveals in this third book that the old ones from before humans
imagined them have not two genders but four.)
Post by Robert Carnegie
generally - as far as I know - female feminists don't want
to be men; they want to be women but without suffering arbitrary
disadvantages in society imposed on women.
Yes, exactly. Cue Quadliboc in 3 ... 2 ... 1 ...
Post by Robert Carnegie
But if it was made convenient, what would be the additional take-up?
Dave, all the more for me, mua ha haaaa!
--
\/David DeLaney posting thru EarthLink - "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
my gatekeeper archives are no longer accessible :( / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.
Quadibloc
2018-04-11 20:26:21 UTC
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Of course women who seek equality are not the same group of people as women who seek gender reassignment.

However, I don't see how that diminishes the point that on an alien
planet, where there is only one kind of intelligent being, members of that
race being able to alter their reproductive function from male to
female and vice versa at will, sex discrimination would not be a thing.

Instead, the point which might be made is that such a situation lacks
relevance to how we might achieve greater equality among ourselves, who are not in this situation.
Robert Carnegie
2018-04-11 20:33:24 UTC
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Post by Quadibloc
Of course women who seek equality are not the same group of people as women who seek gender reassignment.
However, I don't see how that diminishes the point that on an alien
planet, where there is only one kind of intelligent being, members of that
race being able to alter their reproductive function from male to
female and vice versa at will, sex discrimination would not be a thing.
Instead, the point which might be made is that such a situation lacks
relevance to how we might achieve greater equality among ourselves, who are not in this situation.
On Earth we have age discrimination. And everyone changes their
age, although not by choice.

We discriminate by "race" characteristics, and some people
spend their own money changing those; we also discriminate
on sexuality, and while relatively few people try to change
/that/, they do try to pass as the non-discriminated class.
J. Clarke
2018-04-12 01:57:39 UTC
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On Wed, 11 Apr 2018 13:33:24 -0700 (PDT), Robert Carnegie
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by Quadibloc
Of course women who seek equality are not the same group of people as women who seek gender reassignment.
However, I don't see how that diminishes the point that on an alien
planet, where there is only one kind of intelligent being, members of that
race being able to alter their reproductive function from male to
female and vice versa at will, sex discrimination would not be a thing.
Instead, the point which might be made is that such a situation lacks
relevance to how we might achieve greater equality among ourselves, who are not in this situation.
On Earth we have age discrimination. And everyone changes their
age, although not by choice.
We discriminate by "race" characteristics, and some people
spend their own money changing those; we also discriminate
on sexuality, and while relatively few people try to change
/that/, they do try to pass as the non-discriminated class.
Are you saying that some percentage of women "try to pass" as men?
David Johnston
2018-04-12 02:24:58 UTC
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Post by J. Clarke
On Wed, 11 Apr 2018 13:33:24 -0700 (PDT), Robert Carnegie
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by Quadibloc
Of course women who seek equality are not the same group of people as women who seek gender reassignment.
However, I don't see how that diminishes the point that on an alien
planet, where there is only one kind of intelligent being, members of that
race being able to alter their reproductive function from male to
female and vice versa at will, sex discrimination would not be a thing.
Instead, the point which might be made is that such a situation lacks
relevance to how we might achieve greater equality among ourselves, who are not in this situation.
On Earth we have age discrimination. And everyone changes their
age, although not by choice.
We discriminate by "race" characteristics, and some people
spend their own money changing those; we also discriminate
on sexuality, and while relatively few people try to change
/that/, they do try to pass as the non-discriminated class.
Are you saying that some percentage of women "try to pass" as men?
Sex is not the same thing as sexuality.
Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
2018-04-11 21:40:10 UTC
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Post by Quadibloc
Of course women who seek equality are not the same group of
people as women who seek gender reassignment.
I suspect they're not mutually exclusive, though the overlap may be
small. (One of the motivations for reassignment surgery could easily
be a desire for equality with men.)
Post by Quadibloc
However, I don't see how that diminishes the point that on an
alien planet, where there is only one kind of intelligent being,
members of that race being able to alter their reproductive
function from male to female and vice versa at will, sex
discrimination would not be a thing.
Does not logically follow. There could be considerable discrimination
between the two (or more) sexes, but some reason more compelling than
avoiding it for occasionally adopting the discriminated against
gender. (Perhaps there's a biological need to do so, even if the
exact timing is consciously controlled.)
Post by Quadibloc
Instead, the point which might be made is that such a situation
lacks relevance to how we might achieve greater equality among
ourselves, who are not in this situation.
This entire discussion is about as pointless as most here.
--
Terry Austin

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.
Joy Beeson
2018-04-13 00:58:45 UTC
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On Tue, 10 Apr 2018 20:21:03 -0700 (PDT), Robert Carnegie
Post by Robert Carnegie
Although they may
also want to wear trousers... but in a few years from now, that
may be uncontroversial.
It is already attention getting to wear a skirt -- even to attend
services at a church that sponsors field trips to the Creation Museum.

Which is a pity. A full skirt can conceal enough pockets to carry
your lunch and everything you could fit into a knitting bag.

And in cold weather, after you've put on as many pairs of trousers as
you can waddle in, you can still add half a dozen skirts.
--
Joy Beeson
joy beeson at comcast dot net
http://wlweather.net/PAGEJOY/
Lynn McGuire
2018-04-13 02:23:26 UTC
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Post by Joy Beeson
On Tue, 10 Apr 2018 20:21:03 -0700 (PDT), Robert Carnegie
Post by Robert Carnegie
Although they may
also want to wear trousers... but in a few years from now, that
may be uncontroversial.
It is already attention getting to wear a skirt -- even to attend
services at a church that sponsors field trips to the Creation Museum.
Which is a pity. A full skirt can conceal enough pockets to carry
your lunch and everything you could fit into a knitting bag.
And in cold weather, after you've put on as many pairs of trousers as
you can waddle in, you can still add half a dozen skirts.
At my conservative church of 2,500 people, half of the ladies wear
skirts / dresses and the other half wear pants.

Do you live at one of the Poles for that kind of cold weather ?

Lynn
Dorothy J Heydt
2018-04-13 03:14:39 UTC
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Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by Joy Beeson
On Tue, 10 Apr 2018 20:21:03 -0700 (PDT), Robert Carnegie
Post by Robert Carnegie
Although they may
also want to wear trousers... but in a few years from now, that
may be uncontroversial.
It is already attention getting to wear a skirt -- even to attend
services at a church that sponsors field trips to the Creation Museum.
Which is a pity. A full skirt can conceal enough pockets to carry
your lunch and everything you could fit into a knitting bag.
And in cold weather, after you've put on as many pairs of trousers as
you can waddle in, you can still add half a dozen skirts.
At my conservative church of 2,500 people, half of the ladies wear
skirts / dresses and the other half wear pants.
Do you live at one of the Poles for that kind of cold weather ?
I get the impression you get that kind of weather anywhere in the
northern US and all of Canada. And of course the further you get
downwind from the Pacific Ocean, the worse it gets.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Joy Beeson
2018-04-16 00:48:12 UTC
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On Thu, 12 Apr 2018 21:23:26 -0500, Lynn McGuire
Post by Lynn McGuire
Do you live at one of the Poles for that kind of cold weather ?
I rarely wear more than silk tights, sweat pants, and two skirts. It
didn't get even that cold this winter -- but then, a case of "there's
a lot of that going around" kept me indoors all through January.
--
Joy Beeson
joy beeson at comcast dot net
http://wlweather.net/PAGEJOY/
Robert Carnegie
2018-04-13 02:47:08 UTC
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Post by Joy Beeson
On Tue, 10 Apr 2018 20:21:03 -0700 (PDT), Robert Carnegie
Post by Robert Carnegie
Although they may
also want to wear trousers... but in a few years from now, that
may be uncontroversial.
It is already attention getting to wear a skirt -- even to attend
services at a church that sponsors field trips to the Creation Museum.
Which is a pity. A full skirt can conceal enough pockets to carry
your lunch and everything you could fit into a knitting bag.
And in cold weather, after you've put on as many pairs of trousers as
you can waddle in, you can still add half a dozen skirts.
What I had in mind is, I believe one of the Far East airlines just
agreed to let female staff wear trousers... but not yet.
Lynn McGuire
2018-04-10 23:40:02 UTC
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Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by The Zygon
Post by Christian Weisgerber
Post by The Zygon
Has anyone ever read a science fiction story about a society in which men and women are really treated equally? I have read some in which it _said_ that men and women are equal. But one detects subtle differences in treatment in the story suggesting inequality.
How about stories where humans have gengineered themselves to reduce
sexual dimorphism? Sounds like a thing Iain M. Banks might mention
in passing about the Culture.
--
Since they could switch sexes, I would think that alone
would encourage equality of the sexes.
But in the setting, can you change what sex your mind is?
If it happens, is that a deliberate choice or an involuntary
evolution?
n real life, it doesn't seem that Earth women are seizing
equality by being turned into men. That is not a solution.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2416088/Transgender-German-man-Europe-baby-boy-following-home-birth.html

Lynn
Default User
2018-04-09 21:36:55 UTC
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Post by The Zygon
Has anyone ever read a science fiction story about a society in which
men and women are really treated equally? I have read some in which
it said that men and women are equal. But one detects subtle
differences in treatment in the story suggesting inequality.
The obvious recent candidate is Leckie's Ancillary series. Not only do
the Radchaai have equality, there is little outward difference in dress
and manner. The language has no pronouns that distinguish gender.

For the most part, we never know what sex any Radchaai is. Only a few
are identified in the books:

Anaander Mianaai (male in most of her bodies) because a non-Radchaai
refers to her as "he" and it's mentioned that she has a baritone voice.

Seivarden (also male) because Breq has personal experience during their
service together on Justice of Toren. I don't want to spoil much for
those who haven't read them.

Breq is hinted to be female in the books and that's confirmed in a
separate short story.

Breq, when on other worlds where there are such differences, has a fair
bit of difficulty telling the difference between men and women. And she
has a lot of experience. Other Radchaai would probably have no clue (or
much interest).
Post by The Zygon
I would also like to hear about cases where it is said that the sexes
are equal, but you detect indications that they are not. Or found
situations which flat out contradict the claim.
Continuing, Breq notes that on worlds where there is supposed equality,
you still don't want to make a mistake as the locals get very offended.


Brian
Christian Weisgerber
2018-04-09 22:27:21 UTC
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Post by Default User
The obvious recent candidate is Leckie's Ancillary series. Not only do
the Radchaai have equality, there is little outward difference in dress
and manner. The language has no pronouns that distinguish gender.
That is a common property in human languages and has fuck all to
do with gender equality.

"Sex-based and Non-sex-based Gender Systems"
http://wals.info/feature/31A#1/26/148
--
Christian "naddy" Weisgerber ***@mips.inka.de
Default User
2018-04-09 23:56:31 UTC
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Post by Christian Weisgerber
Post by Default User
The obvious recent candidate is Leckie's Ancillary series. Not only
do the Radchaai have equality, there is little outward difference
in dress and manner. The language has no pronouns that distinguish
gender.
That is a common property in human languages and has fuck all to
do with gender equality.
"Sex-based and Non-sex-based Gender Systems"
http://wals.info/feature/31A#1/26/148
Are you sure that means the same thing? This has no pronouns at all
with sex differention. So no man or woman, only person. No brother or
sister, only sibling. No mother or father, only parent.

With no way to refer to a difference and little way to detect it by
other cues, equality pretty much has to follow.



Brian
Christian Weisgerber
2018-04-10 12:26:08 UTC
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Post by Default User
Are you sure that means the same thing? This has no pronouns at all
with sex differention. So no man or woman, only person. No brother or
sister, only sibling. No mother or father, only parent.
I think you are confused what a "pronoun" is.
--
Christian "naddy" Weisgerber ***@mips.inka.de
Ted Nolan <tednolan>
2018-04-10 15:58:26 UTC
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Post by Christian Weisgerber
Post by Default User
Are you sure that means the same thing? This has no pronouns at all
with sex differention. So no man or woman, only person. No brother or
sister, only sibling. No mother or father, only parent.
I think you are confused what a "pronoun" is.
Ah *HA!* (pregnant pause) Pronoun Trouble..."
--
------
columbiaclosings.com
What's not in Columbia anymore..
Anthony Nance
2018-04-10 18:41:14 UTC
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Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Post by Christian Weisgerber
Post by Default User
Are you sure that means the same thing? This has no pronouns at all
with sex differention. So no man or woman, only person. No brother or
sister, only sibling. No mother or father, only parent.
I think you are confused what a "pronoun" is.
Ah *HA!* (pregnant pause) Pronoun Trouble..."
So shoot me now!
Ted Nolan <tednolan>
2018-04-10 18:52:41 UTC
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Post by Anthony Nance
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Post by Christian Weisgerber
Post by Default User
Are you sure that means the same thing? This has no pronouns at all
with sex differention. So no man or woman, only person. No brother or
sister, only sibling. No mother or father, only parent.
I think you are confused what a "pronoun" is.
Ah *HA!* (pregnant pause) Pronoun Trouble..."
So shoot me now!
No, wait till you get home..
--
------
columbiaclosings.com
What's not in Columbia anymore..
Anthony Nance
2018-04-11 11:48:57 UTC
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Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Post by Anthony Nance
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Post by Christian Weisgerber
Post by Default User
Are you sure that means the same thing? This has no pronouns at all
with sex differention. So no man or woman, only person. No brother or
sister, only sibling. No mother or father, only parent.
I think you are confused what a "pronoun" is.
Ah *HA!* (pregnant pause) Pronoun Trouble..."
So shoot me now!
No, wait till you get home..
We're despicable!
Ted Nolan <tednolan>
2018-04-11 15:57:31 UTC
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Post by Anthony Nance
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Post by Anthony Nance
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Post by Christian Weisgerber
Post by Default User
Are you sure that means the same thing? This has no pronouns at all
with sex differention. So no man or woman, only person. No brother or
sister, only sibling. No mother or father, only parent.
I think you are confused what a "pronoun" is.
Ah *HA!* (pregnant pause) Pronoun Trouble..."
So shoot me now!
No, wait till you get home..
We're despicable!
Sheer honesty..
--
------
columbiaclosings.com
What's not in Columbia anymore..
Default User
2018-04-10 19:25:55 UTC
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Post by Christian Weisgerber
Post by Default User
Are you sure that means the same thing? This has no pronouns at all
with sex differention. So no man or woman, only person. No brother
or sister, only sibling. No mother or father, only parent.
I think you are confused what a "pronoun" is.
It's pronouns and nouns. It would be clearer if you read the books.
Leckie chose to use "she" and "her" for all cases. There's no way in
the language to differentiate between the sexes.



Brian
David DeLaney
2018-04-11 07:20:58 UTC
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Post by Christian Weisgerber
Post by Default User
Are you sure that means the same thing? This has no pronouns at all
with sex differention. So no man or woman, only person. No brother or
sister, only sibling. No mother or father, only parent.
I think you are confused what a "pronoun" is.
He or she may be, but the point was that that language also didn't HAVE he,
OR she, or their inflected forms. Just neuter pronouns. It's not uncommon for
Earthly languages to have neuter pronouns _along with_ the gendered ones; that
isn't what's being explored here.

Dave, cis-male
--
\/David DeLaney posting thru EarthLink - "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
my gatekeeper archives are no longer accessible :( / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.
Garrett Wollman
2018-04-11 17:39:05 UTC
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Post by David DeLaney
He or she may be, but the point was that that language also didn't HAVE he,
OR she, or their inflected forms. Just neuter pronouns. It's not uncommon for
Earthly languages to have neuter pronouns _along with_ the gendered ones; that
isn't what's being explored here.
It's not uncommon for Earthly languages to have gendered pronouns that
are not Indo-European two-or-three-way sex-gendered. E.g., separate
pronouns for animate and inanimate is a thing. (Or human/non-human,
as in formal Finnish.)

-GAWollman
--
Garrett A. Wollman | "Act to avoid constraining the future; if you can,
***@bimajority.org| act to remove constraint from the future. This is
Opinions not shared by| a thing you can do, are able to do, to do together."
my employers. | - Graydon Saunders, _A Succession of Bad Days_ (2015)
Lawrence Watt-Evans
2018-04-11 19:52:28 UTC
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Post by Garrett Wollman
Post by David DeLaney
He or she may be, but the point was that that language also didn't HAVE he,
OR she, or their inflected forms. Just neuter pronouns. It's not uncommon for
Earthly languages to have neuter pronouns _along with_ the gendered ones; that
isn't what's being explored here.
It's not uncommon for Earthly languages to have gendered pronouns that
are not Indo-European two-or-three-way sex-gendered. E.g., separate
pronouns for animate and inanimate is a thing. (Or human/non-human,
as in formal Finnish.)
My understanding is that Swahili has eight categories of nouns, and
the only reason they aren't considered genders is that eight is too
many; it squicks linguists out.
--
My webpage is at http://www.watt-evans.com
My latest novel is Stone Unturned: A Legend of Ethshar.
See http://www.ethshar.com/StoneUnturned.shtml
Peter Trei
2018-04-11 20:17:40 UTC
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Post by Lawrence Watt-Evans
Post by Garrett Wollman
Post by David DeLaney
He or she may be, but the point was that that language also didn't HAVE he,
OR she, or their inflected forms. Just neuter pronouns. It's not uncommon for
Earthly languages to have neuter pronouns _along with_ the gendered ones; that
isn't what's being explored here.
It's not uncommon for Earthly languages to have gendered pronouns that
are not Indo-European two-or-three-way sex-gendered. E.g., separate
pronouns for animate and inanimate is a thing. (Or human/non-human,
as in formal Finnish.)
My understanding is that Swahili has eight categories of nouns, and
the only reason they aren't considered genders is that eight is too
many; it squicks linguists out.
Am I the only one who is astonished that Quaddy hasn't joined this thread?

pt
Dimensional Traveler
2018-04-11 20:23:36 UTC
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Post by Peter Trei
Post by Lawrence Watt-Evans
Post by Garrett Wollman
Post by David DeLaney
He or she may be, but the point was that that language also didn't HAVE he,
OR she, or their inflected forms. Just neuter pronouns. It's not uncommon for
Earthly languages to have neuter pronouns _along with_ the gendered ones; that
isn't what's being explored here.
It's not uncommon for Earthly languages to have gendered pronouns that
are not Indo-European two-or-three-way sex-gendered. E.g., separate
pronouns for animate and inanimate is a thing. (Or human/non-human,
as in formal Finnish.)
My understanding is that Swahili has eight categories of nouns, and
the only reason they aren't considered genders is that eight is too
many; it squicks linguists out.
Am I the only one who is astonished that Quaddy hasn't joined this thread?
Don't speak the Devil's name!
--
Inquiring minds want to know while minds with a self-preservation
instinct are running screaming.
Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
2018-04-11 21:36:37 UTC
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Post by Dimensional Traveler
On Wednesday, April 11, 2018 at 3:52:30 PM UTC-4, Lawrence
On Wed, 11 Apr 2018 17:39:05 +0000 (UTC),
Post by Garrett Wollman
Post by David DeLaney
He or she may be, but the point was that that language also
didn't HAVE he, OR she, or their inflected forms. Just
neuter pronouns. It's not uncommon for Earthly languages to
have neuter pronouns _along with_ the gendered ones; that
isn't what's being explored here.
It's not uncommon for Earthly languages to have gendered
pronouns that are not Indo-European two-or-three-way
sex-gendered. E.g., separate pronouns for animate and
inanimate is a thing. (Or human/non-human, as in formal
Finnish.)
My understanding is that Swahili has eight categories of
nouns, and the only reason they aren't considered genders is
that eight is too many; it squicks linguists out.
Am I the only one who is astonished that Quaddy hasn't joined
this thread?
Don't speak the Devil's name!
Hastur! Hastur! Hastur!

We should be safe now. Saf*er*, anyway.
--
Terry Austin

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.
Quadibloc
2018-04-12 01:48:32 UTC
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Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
Post by Dimensional Traveler
Post by Peter Trei
Am I the only one who is astonished that Quaddy hasn't joined this thread?
Don't speak the Devil's name!
Hastur! Hastur! Hastur!
We should be safe now. Saf*er*, anyway.
Allow me to help.

Perhaps what you meant to say was:

Iä! Iä! Hastur cv'ayak 'vulgtmm, vugtlagln, vulgtmm! Ai! Ai! Hastur!

...at least, if August Derleth is to be believed.

But perhaps that incantation is not meant for warding, but instead summons
bat-like and man-like creatures to fly you to a place of relative safety.

But it may not work if not preceded by the correct whistling ululation.

John Savard
Ninapenda Jibini
2018-04-12 06:06:41 UTC
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On Wednesday, April 11, 2018 at 3:36:40 PM UTC-6, Jibini Kula
Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
Post by Dimensional Traveler
Post by Peter Trei
Am I the only one who is astonished that Quaddy hasn't
joined this thread?
Don't speak the Devil's name!
Hastur! Hastur! Hastur!
We should be safe now. Saf*er*, anyway.
Allow me to help.
IÀ! IÀ! Hastur cv'ayak 'vulgtmm, vugtlagln, vulgtmm! Ai! Ai!
Hastur!
...at least, if August Derleth is to be believed.
But perhaps that incantation is not meant for warding, but
instead summons bat-like and man-like creatures to fly you to a
place of relative safety.
But it may not work if not preceded by the correct whistling
ululation.
I figured that having my soul eaten by an elder god would be less
painful than reading another of your posts.
--
Terry Austin

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.
Dimensional Traveler
2018-04-12 16:06:12 UTC
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Post by Ninapenda Jibini
On Wednesday, April 11, 2018 at 3:36:40 PM UTC-6, Jibini Kula
Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
Post by Dimensional Traveler
Post by Peter Trei
Am I the only one who is astonished that Quaddy hasn't
joined this thread?
Don't speak the Devil's name!
Hastur! Hastur! Hastur!
We should be safe now. Saf*er*, anyway.
Allow me to help.
Iä! Iä! Hastur cv'ayak 'vulgtmm, vugtlagln, vulgtmm! Ai! Ai!
Hastur!
...at least, if August Derleth is to be believed.
But perhaps that incantation is not meant for warding, but
instead summons bat-like and man-like creatures to fly you to a
place of relative safety.
But it may not work if not preceded by the correct whistling
ululation.
I figured that having my soul eaten by an elder god would be less
painful than reading another of your posts.
You can blame Peter.
--
Inquiring minds want to know while minds with a self-preservation
instinct are running screaming.
Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
2018-04-12 16:17:38 UTC
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Post by Dimensional Traveler
Post by Ninapenda Jibini
On Wednesday, April 11, 2018 at 3:36:40 PM UTC-6, Jibini Kula
Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
Post by Dimensional Traveler
Post by Peter Trei
Am I the only one who is astonished that Quaddy hasn't
joined this thread?
Don't speak the Devil's name!
Hastur! Hastur! Hastur!
We should be safe now. Saf*er*, anyway.
Allow me to help.
IÀ! IÀ! Hastur cv'ayak 'vulgtmm, vugtlagln, vulgtmm! Ai!
Ai! Hastur!
...at least, if August Derleth is to be believed.
But perhaps that incantation is not meant for warding, but
instead summons bat-like and man-like creatures to fly you to
a place of relative safety.
But it may not work if not preceded by the correct whistling
ululation.
I figured that having my soul eaten by an elder god would be
less painful than reading another of your posts.
You can blame Peter.
Certainly I can. Whether there's any evidence he's responsible or
not. (And it's actually more amusing if he's not.)
--
Terry Austin

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.
Quadibloc
2018-04-18 17:05:13 UTC
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Post by Quadibloc
Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
Post by Dimensional Traveler
Post by Peter Trei
Am I the only one who is astonished that Quaddy hasn't joined this thread?
Don't speak the Devil's name!
Hastur! Hastur! Hastur!
We should be safe now. Saf*er*, anyway.
Allow me to help.
Iä! Iä! Hastur cv'ayak 'vulgtmm, vugtlagln, vulgtmm! Ai! Ai! Hastur!
...at least, if August Derleth is to be believed.
But perhaps that incantation is not meant for warding, but instead summons
bat-like and man-like creatures to fly you to a place of relative safety.
But it may not work if not preceded by the correct whistling ululation.
Oops! I forgot the part about being tortured if you don't bring the correct
star-shaped amulet with you.

John Savard
Garrett Wollman
2018-04-11 20:49:13 UTC
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Post by Lawrence Watt-Evans
My understanding is that Swahili has eight categories of nouns, and
the only reason they aren't considered genders is that eight is too
many; it squicks linguists out.
Not really. Some linguists use the term "gender" for any system of
noun classification (by analogy with the French and Latin where the
cognate word just means "kind" or "variety"), and other linguists
reserve "gender" for noun classification systems that roughly parallel
the Indo-European two-or-three-gender system. The term "gender" is
also used for the sort of animate/inanimate classification that is
sometimes observed even in languages that have the other system too --
as with English relative pronouns 'who' and 'which'.

(Reconstructed Proto-Indo-European had a three-gender system, but this
collapsed to two genders in early Proto-Germanic before a third gender
was reintroduced. This is why the grammatical genders don't precisely
line up between Germanic languages and other IE language families.)

-GAWollman
--
Garrett A. Wollman | "Act to avoid constraining the future; if you can,
***@bimajority.org| act to remove constraint from the future. This is
Opinions not shared by| a thing you can do, are able to do, to do together."
my employers. | - Graydon Saunders, _A Succession of Bad Days_ (2015)
Christian Weisgerber
2018-04-12 16:27:49 UTC
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Post by Garrett Wollman
(Reconstructed Proto-Indo-European had a three-gender system,
Yes.
Post by Garrett Wollman
but this collapsed to two genders in early Proto-Germanic before
a third gender was reintroduced.
Huh? Where do you get that strange notion from? Much of the PIE
nominal system was conserved straight through to PGmc; see Don
Ringe, _From Proto-Indo-European to Proto-Germanic_ for the
excruciating details.
Post by Garrett Wollman
This is why the grammatical genders don't precisely
line up between Germanic languages and other IE language families.)
I'm not aware of anything remarkable in this regard.

Even when the gender system as such is conserved, it is not that
unusual for words to move between genders/declension classes over
time. For instance, the West Germanic (e.g. German, Old English)
"apple" word is masculine, but it is neuter in North Germanic. I
don't have a handy list, but there are numerous nouns that changed
gender between Old High German and Modern German. Similarly from
Latin to French, e.g. potio(nem) (f) > poison (m).
--
Christian "naddy" Weisgerber ***@mips.inka.de
Garrett Wollman
2018-04-12 19:39:18 UTC
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Post by Christian Weisgerber
Huh? Where do you get that strange notion from?
Misremembering something I read, probably, and being determined not to
get ratholed re-verifying my memory for a throwaway Usenet post.

My memory says that something like modern neuters evolved from an old
feminine plural -- or maybe the other way around -- but I couldn't
says what that's a (possibly distorted) memory of.

-GAWollman
--
Garrett A. Wollman | "Act to avoid constraining the future; if you can,
***@bimajority.org| act to remove constraint from the future. This is
Opinions not shared by| a thing you can do, are able to do, to do together."
my employers. | - Graydon Saunders, _A Succession of Bad Days_ (2015)
Christian Weisgerber
2018-04-13 15:33:57 UTC
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On 2018-04-12, Garrett Wollman <***@bimajority.org> wrote:

[Proto-Indo-European > Proto-Germanic]
Post by Garrett Wollman
My memory says that something like modern neuters evolved from an old
feminine plural -- or maybe the other way around --
Yes, there's a suffix *-h₂- which formed a neuter collective, later
reinterpreted as neuter plural, and is also associated with productive
feminine forms. There are reasons to assume that at an earlier
stage there was only an animate (> masculine) and inanimate (> neuter)
distinction, with the feminine arising later. Anyway, this is all
within the realm of Proto-Indo-European; Proto-Germanic inherited
the gender system and did not innovate there.
--
Christian "naddy" Weisgerber ***@mips.inka.de
Joy Beeson
2018-04-13 00:58:00 UTC
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On Wed, 11 Apr 2018 15:52:28 -0400, Lawrence Watt-Evans
Post by Lawrence Watt-Evans
My understanding is that Swahili has eight categories of nouns, and
the only reason they aren't considered genders is that eight is too
many; it squicks linguists out.
Can't imagine why; there are critters that have eight sexes.
--
Joy Beeson
joy beeson at comcast dot net
http://wlweather.net/PAGEJOY/
Dorothy J Heydt
2018-04-13 03:20:06 UTC
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Post by Joy Beeson
On Wed, 11 Apr 2018 15:52:28 -0400, Lawrence Watt-Evans
Post by Lawrence Watt-Evans
My understanding is that Swahili has eight categories of nouns, and
the only reason they aren't considered genders is that eight is too
many; it squicks linguists out.
Can't imagine why; there are critters that have eight sexes.
A quick glance at the article in Wikipedia indicates that some of
the noun classes include two genders, artifacts, and diminutives.
The diminutive class also seems to include nouns with the meaning
of "sort of". Then there's one for living things neither human
nor animal (plants, e.g.) and one for groups of humans.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swahili_language#Noun_classes
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
David DeLaney
2018-04-15 06:33:57 UTC
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Post by Dorothy J Heydt
A quick glance at the article in Wikipedia indicates that some of
the noun classes include two genders, artifacts, and diminutives.
The diminutive class also seems to include nouns with the meaning
of "sort of". Then there's one for living things neither human
nor animal (plants, e.g.) and one for groups of humans.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swahili_language#Noun_classes
And starting with those that belong to the Emperor?

Dave, the celestial emporium of benevolent fake news
--
\/David DeLaney posting thru EarthLink - "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
my gatekeeper archives are no longer accessible :( / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.
Quadibloc
2018-04-16 03:33:01 UTC
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That would be Japanese, not Swahili. I see "Ubuntu" came from Zulu, but it's missing noun classes 17 and 18 which are atrophied in Swahili...
luckily I've been able to find an old 800-page book comparing the various
Bantu and semi-Bantu languages on the Internet Archive, and I may be able
to satiate my idle curiosity through skimming it...

Yes, I do visit TV Tropes on occasion; why do you ask?
Quadibloc
2018-04-16 15:24:45 UTC
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Oh, dear, it's actually a two-volume work.

https://archive.org/details/comparativestudy01johnuoft
https://archive.org/details/comparativestudy02john
Panthera Tigris Altaica
2018-04-16 15:32:03 UTC
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Post by Quadibloc
Oh, dear, it's actually a two-volume work.
https://archive.org/details/comparativestudy01johnuoft
https://archive.org/details/comparativestudy02john
What are you talking about? You insist on trimming everything before you reply. This gives no context. Those of us who don't use threaded newsreaders cannot tell which post you're replying to, and so have no bloody clue what the hell you're on about, if anything. We therefore tend to ignore you, as you go out of your way to make things difficult.

I note that I am not the first to point this out to you. I suspect that I will not be the last, as it seems that it would take hyper-velocity discarding-sabot depleted-uranium long-rod penetrators to penetrate your skull.
Quadibloc
2018-04-16 17:32:42 UTC
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Post by Panthera Tigris Altaica
Post by Quadibloc
Oh, dear, it's actually a two-volume work.
https://archive.org/details/comparativestudy01johnuoft
https://archive.org/details/comparativestudy02john
What are you talking about?
to this...
Post by Panthera Tigris Altaica
Post by Quadibloc
A quick glance at the article in Wikipedia indicates that some of
the noun classes include two genders, artifacts, and diminutives.
The diminutive class also seems to include nouns with the meaning
of "sort of". Then there's one for living things neither human
nor animal (plants, e.g.) and one for groups of humans.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swahili_language#Noun_classes
And starting with those that belong to the Emperor?
Dave, the celestial emporium of benevolent fake news
...I had replied that I looked up a book about languages related to Swahili.

Many newsreaders show articles in a "tree view", so that the article to which a
post is a reply is immediately above it, and it's not necessary to repeat
anything to provide context.

John Savard
Peter Trei
2018-04-16 18:07:59 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Quadibloc
Post by Panthera Tigris Altaica
Post by Quadibloc
Oh, dear, it's actually a two-volume work.
https://archive.org/details/comparativestudy01johnuoft
https://archive.org/details/comparativestudy02john
What are you talking about?
to this...
Post by Panthera Tigris Altaica
Post by Quadibloc
A quick glance at the article in Wikipedia indicates that some of
the noun classes include two genders, artifacts, and diminutives.
The diminutive class also seems to include nouns with the meaning
of "sort of". Then there's one for living things neither human
nor animal (plants, e.g.) and one for groups of humans.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swahili_language#Noun_classes
And starting with those that belong to the Emperor?
Dave, the celestial emporium of benevolent fake news
...I had replied that I looked up a book about languages related to Swahili.
Many newsreaders show articles in a "tree view", so that the article to which a
post is a reply is immediately above it, and it's not necessary to repeat
anything to provide context.
Patronize much?

Some do.

Some don't (forex, Google Groups). I guess you don't care if they
have no idea what you're talking about.

Also, even the tree-supporting ones don't display the content of the
replied-to message if it's already been read.

If I come back to a thread after several hours, and your context-free
one-liner response is all that I can see without further exploration of
the read-and-dead previous messages, you're placing an annoying burden
on me, and other readers.

Please either quote fully, or if you insist on trimming, do so
judiciously so as to let people understand what you're referring to.

pt
Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
2018-04-16 18:36:18 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Peter Trei
Post by Quadibloc
On Monday, April 16, 2018 at 11:24:47 AM UTC-4, Quadibloc
Post by Quadibloc
Oh, dear, it's actually a two-volume work.
https://archive.org/details/comparativestudy01johnuoft
https://archive.org/details/comparativestudy02john
What are you talking about?
to this...
On Sunday, April 15, 2018 at 12:34:05 AM UTC-6, David DeLaney
Post by Quadibloc
A quick glance at the article in Wikipedia indicates that
some of the noun classes include two genders, artifacts,
and diminutives. The diminutive class also seems to include
nouns with the meaning of "sort of". Then there's one for
living things neither human nor animal (plants, e.g.) and
one for groups of humans.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swahili_language#Noun_classes
And starting with those that belong to the Emperor?
Dave, the celestial emporium of benevolent fake news
...I had replied that I looked up a book about languages
related to Swahili.
Many newsreaders show articles in a "tree view", so that the
article to which a post is a reply is immediately above it, and
it's not necessary to repeat anything to provide context.
Patronize much?
Some do.
Some don't (forex, Google Groups). I guess you don't care if
they have no idea what you're talking about.
I have long suspect that in Quaddie's case, preventing people from
knowing what the fuck he's jibbering about is a deliberate,
carefully considered choice. Realistically speaking, if you have no
clue what he's on about, he looks like stupid and bigoted.
Post by Peter Trei
Also, even the tree-supporting ones don't display the content of
the replied-to message if it's already been read.
If I come back to a thread after several hours, and your
context-free one-liner response is all that I can see without
further exploration of the read-and-dead previous messages,
you're placing an annoying burden on me, and other readers.
Please either quote fully, or if you insist on trimming, do so
judiciously so as to let people understand what you're referring to.
Are you sure you really *want* to understand his posts?
--
Terry Austin

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.
Juho Julkunen
2018-04-16 19:04:09 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Peter Trei
If I come back to a thread after several hours, and your context-free
one-liner response is all that I can see without further exploration of
the read-and-dead previous messages, you're placing an annoying burden
on me, and other readers.
Please either quote fully, or if you insist on trimming, do so
judiciously so as to let people understand what you're referring to.
Please trim. If I see a post and there's no new content on the first
screen's worth, I'm liable to just hit next.
--
Juho Julkunen
Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
2018-04-16 22:04:05 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
In article
Post by Peter Trei
If I come back to a thread after several hours, and your
context-free one-liner response is all that I can see without
further exploration of the read-and-dead previous messages,
you're placing an annoying burden on me, and other readers.
Please either quote fully, or if you insist on trimming, do so
judiciously so as to let people understand what you're
referring to.
Please trim. If I see a post and there's no new content on the
first screen's worth, I'm liable to just hit next.
It is annoying. It's also still better than a one liner with zero
context.
--
Terry Austin

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.
Kevrob
2018-04-16 21:32:32 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Peter Trei
Post by Quadibloc
Many newsreaders show articles in a "tree view", so that the article to which a
post is a reply is immediately above it, and it's not necessary to repeat
anything to provide context.
Patronize much?
Some do.
Some don't (forex, Google Groups).
GG does have tree view. See:

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/rec.arts.sf.written/9G95lVpi56Q

It may be a browser issue. I am using Chrome at the moment, but
if I use Firefox later on tonight, I'm not sure it will work.

Kevin R

(Hopes he is quoting just enough...)
Kevrob
2018-04-16 22:02:09 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Kevrob
Post by Peter Trei
Post by Quadibloc
Many newsreaders show articles in a "tree view", so that the article to which a
post is a reply is immediately above it, and it's not necessary to repeat
anything to provide context.
Patronize much?
Some do.
Some don't (forex, Google Groups).
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/rec.arts.sf.written/9G95lVpi56Q
It may be a browser issue. I am using Chrome at the moment, but
if I use Firefox later on tonight, I'm not sure it will work.
The Subject of the thread is posted thusly:

"Equality of the sexes in science fiction
76 posts by 29 authors"

There's a drop-down menu using the button to the immediate
right of "authors" that allows you to change the display options:
Chonological, Tree and Paged are there, along with such whimsy as
"report abuse."

Kevin R
Panthera Tigris Altaica
2018-04-16 22:33:34 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Kevrob
Post by Peter Trei
Post by Quadibloc
Many newsreaders show articles in a "tree view", so that the article to which a
post is a reply is immediately above it, and it's not necessary to repeat
anything to provide context.
Patronize much?
Some do.
Some don't (forex, Google Groups).
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/rec.arts.sf.written/9G95lVpi56Q
It may be a browser issue. I am using Chrome at the moment, but
if I use Firefox later on tonight, I'm not sure it will work.
Kevin R
(Hopes he is quoting just enough...)
Your example does not show threading in Firefox.
David DeLaney
2018-04-18 03:38:41 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Peter Trei
Post by Quadibloc
Many newsreaders show articles in a "tree view", so that the article to which a
post is a reply is immediately above it, and it's not necessary to repeat
anything to provide context.
Patronize much?
Some do.
Some don't (forex, Google Groups). I guess you don't care if they
have no idea what you're talking about.
... Google Groups is NOT A NEWSREADER. It is, at best, an unreliable article-
displayer. It has never been a newsreader or usable as one. It is WHY 25-year-
old necroreplies pop up every so often.
Post by Peter Trei
Also, even the tree-supporting ones don't display the content of the
replied-to message if it's already been read.
slrn and the other rn descendants do this just fine. It's really odd to see
gmail NOT doing it in my emails, cuz real mail programs also don't "hide quoted
text" unless told to.
Post by Peter Trei
If I come back to a thread after several hours, and your context-free
one-liner response is all that I can see without further exploration of
the read-and-dead previous messages, you're placing an annoying burden
on me, and other readers.
I do agree that at least one level of quoting oughtta be preserved, as mind-
reading over nntp: is difficult. But snipping down to just a couple levels
of quoting, like Terry never does, is also mandated; you don't need to try
to turn Usenet into Outloook-for-folks-who-don't-realize-the-cursor-is-movable.

Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting thru EarthLink - "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
my gatekeeper archives are no longer accessible :( / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.
Peter Trei
2018-04-18 12:57:18 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Quadibloc
Post by Peter Trei
Post by Quadibloc
Many newsreaders show articles in a "tree view", so that the article to
which a
Post by Peter Trei
Post by Quadibloc
post is a reply is immediately above it, and it's not necessary to repeat
anything to provide context.
Patronize much?
Some do.
Some don't (forex, Google Groups). I guess you don't care if they
have no idea what you're talking about.
... Google Groups is NOT A NEWSREADER. It is, at best, an unreliable article-
displayer. It has never been a newsreader or usable as one. It is WHY 25-year-
old necroreplies pop up every so often.
A newsreader is a an application which people use to read Usenet News. I havent done a survey, but I suspect that GG is one of the most widely use newsreaders. Getting snobby about people's choice of reader is hardly helpful. I use xnews at home, but NNTP is stopped at the firewall from work, so I use GG as well (and am doing do now).

All I'm asking is that, like you, I want people to leave enough contest that I don't have to dredge up previous, marked-read and invisible articles to understand Quaddie's one-line responses.

Yes, GG is the source of (thankfully infrequent) necro threads. That's because
GG has a deep archive of usenet posts, which other readers do not. That's a
feature, not a bug.
Post by Quadibloc
Post by Peter Trei
Also, even the tree-supporting ones don't display the content of the
replied-to message if it's already been read.
slrn and the other rn descendants do this just fine. It's really odd to see
gmail NOT doing it in my emails, cuz real mail programs also don't "hide quoted
text" unless told to.
Post by Peter Trei
If I come back to a thread after several hours, and your context-free
one-liner response is all that I can see without further exploration of
the read-and-dead previous messages, you're placing an annoying burden
on me, and other readers.
I do agree that at least one level of quoting oughtta be preserved, as mind-
reading over nntp: is difficult. But snipping down to just a couple levels
of quoting, like Terry never does, is also mandated; you don't need to try
to turn Usenet into Outloook-for-folks-who-don't-realize-the-cursor-is-movable.
pt
Dimensional Traveler
2018-04-18 15:25:04 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Peter Trei
Post by David DeLaney
... Google Groups is NOT A NEWSREADER. It is, at best, an unreliable article-
displayer. It has never been a newsreader or usable as one. It is WHY 25-year-
old necroreplies pop up every so often.
A newsreader is a an application which people use to read Usenet News. I havent done a survey, but I suspect that GG is one of the most widely use newsreaders. Getting snobby about people's choice of reader is hardly helpful. I use xnews at home, but NNTP is stopped at the firewall from work, so I use GG as well (and am doing do now).
All I'm asking is that, like you, I want people to leave enough contest that I don't have to dredge up previous, marked-read and invisible articles to understand Quaddie's one-line responses.
Yes, GG is the source of (thankfully infrequent) necro threads. That's because
GG has a deep archive of usenet posts, which other readers do not. That's a
feature, not a bug.
Its a bug in that it pops up 15+ year old posts as "new". There are two
parts to GG. One is the archive (very incomplete) of usenet posts. The
other is the webpage interface to said archive. The second part is
garbage, with a poorly designed interface for the task, many bugs and
effectively unsupported.
--
Inquiring minds want to know while minds with a self-preservation
instinct are running screaming.
Peter Trei
2018-04-18 15:32:57 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Dimensional Traveler
Post by Peter Trei
Post by David DeLaney
... Google Groups is NOT A NEWSREADER. It is, at best, an unreliable article-
displayer. It has never been a newsreader or usable as one. It is WHY 25-year-
old necroreplies pop up every so often.
A newsreader is a an application which people use to read Usenet News. I havent done a survey, but I suspect that GG is one of the most widely use newsreaders. Getting snobby about people's choice of reader is hardly helpful. I use xnews at home, but NNTP is stopped at the firewall from work, so I use GG as well (and am doing do now).
All I'm asking is that, like you, I want people to leave enough contest that I don't have to dredge up previous, marked-read and invisible articles to understand Quaddie's one-line responses.
Yes, GG is the source of (thankfully infrequent) necro threads. That's because
GG has a deep archive of usenet posts, which other readers do not. That's a
feature, not a bug.
Its a bug in that it pops up 15+ year old posts as "new". There are two
parts to GG. One is the archive (very incomplete) of usenet posts. The
other is the webpage interface to said archive. The second part is
garbage, with a poorly designed interface for the task, many bugs and
effectively unsupported.
I'm the first to agree that the GG interface is suboptimal, even bad.

However, its one of the few existing web interfaces, and as such, used by a
lot of people when in circumstances such that a real NNRP client can't be
used. Such as myself, at work, right now.

...all of which is a side issue to that of asking people to leave enough of
a previous message that I'm not left scrambling to figure out the context of
a one-line response.

pt
Default User
2018-04-18 19:33:37 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Dimensional Traveler
Its a bug in that it pops up 15+ year old posts as "new". There are
two parts to GG. One is the archive (very incomplete) of usenet
posts. The other is the webpage interface to said archive. The
second part is garbage, with a poorly designed interface for the
task, many bugs and effectively unsupported.
Do you have evidence for this? I used GG to read this newsgroup
exclusively for years. I never saw that. Unless it's very new, like the
past few months, then I have to seriously question this.


Brian
Kevrob
2018-04-19 05:09:04 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Default User
Post by Dimensional Traveler
Its a bug in that it pops up 15+ year old posts as "new". There are
two parts to GG. One is the archive (very incomplete) of usenet
posts. The other is the webpage interface to said archive. The
second part is garbage, with a poorly designed interface for the
task, many bugs and effectively unsupported.
Do you have evidence for this? I used GG to read this newsgroup
exclusively for years. I never saw that. Unless it's very new, like the
past few months, then I have to seriously question this.
The default mobile page deprecates quoting. Before replying,
scroll to the bottom of the page, where, at least when you are
signed in, you will see, at the left, your email address, just to
the right of center "switch accounts," and to the right of that
"desktop."

[Continued next post.]

Kevin R
Kevrob
2018-04-19 09:43:30 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Kevrob
Post by Default User
Post by Dimensional Traveler
Its a bug in that it pops up 15+ year old posts as "new". There are
two parts to GG. One is the archive (very incomplete) of usenet
posts. The other is the webpage interface to said archive. The
second part is garbage, with a poorly designed interface for the
task, many bugs and effectively unsupported.
Do you have evidence for this? I used GG to read this newsgroup
exclusively for years. I never saw that. Unless it's very new, like the
past few months, then I have to seriously question this.
The default mobile page deprecates quoting. Before replying,
scroll to the bottom of the page, where, at least when you are
signed in, you will see, at the left, your email address, just to
the right of center "switch accounts," and to the right of that
"desktop."
[Continued next post.]
This is posted from my phone. I gave up trying to edit out
much of what I am quoting as a bad job. The interface is
clunky when one's phone won't let one delete entire lines,
and one has no backspace key.

Kevin R
Kevrob
2018-04-19 12:12:23 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Kevrob
This is posted from my phone.
This isn't.
Post by Kevrob
I gave up trying to edit out
much of what I am quoting as a bad job. The interface is
clunky when one's phone won't let one delete entire lines,
and one has no backspace key.
It's the delete key, not the backspace, missing from my phone
keyboard, actually. Editing a post on it is excruciatingly
slow in GG in desktop mode. Posting from the mobile page
doesn't drive me as nuts, but it doesn't autoquote.

Both ways suck, though the suckage varies.

Kevin R
Jack Bohn
2018-04-19 13:23:50 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Kevrob
This is posted from my phone. I gave up trying to edit out
much of what I am quoting as a bad job. The interface is
clunky when one's phone won't let one delete entire lines,
and one has no backspace key.
In my phone's text editing interface, a long press on text will leave a word highlighted, with adjustment bars on each end that can be dragged to highlight as much of the adjacent text as needed. A context menu pops up, offering to cut, copy, clip, etc. It works even in the Desktop version of Google Groups' webpage (I'm soaking in it, now).
--
-Jack
Quadibloc
2018-04-18 16:54:17 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Peter Trei
A newsreader is a an application which people use to read Usenet News.
There you are then.

Google Groups does perform the functions of a newsreader - if poorly and with
some notable omissions. So your intended point is valid.

But it is a web-based newsreading service - because you don't download it and
run it on your computer. So, strictly speaking, a nitpicker can still claim you
are wrong.

John Savard
Peter Trei
2018-04-18 17:19:26 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Quadibloc
Post by Peter Trei
A newsreader is a an application which people use to read Usenet News.
There you are then.
Google Groups does perform the functions of a newsreader - if poorly and with
some notable omissions. So your intended point is valid.
But it is a web-based newsreading service - because you don't download it and
run it on your computer. So, strictly speaking, a nitpicker can still claim you
are wrong.
So you do read my posts. Thank you for leaving a line of context to establish
what you're replying to - thats all I was asking you to do.

pt
Quadibloc
2018-04-18 18:54:05 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Peter Trei
So you do read my posts. Thank you for leaving a line of context to establish
what you're replying to - thats all I was asking you to do.
I normally do, but when I use my smartphone instead, quoting becomes
impossibly awkward.

John Savard
Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
2018-04-18 19:57:11 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On Wednesday, April 18, 2018 at 11:19:29 AM UTC-6, Peter Trei
Post by Peter Trei
So you do read my posts. Thank you for leaving a line of
context to establish what you're replying to - thats all I was
asking you to do.
I normally do, but when I use my smartphone instead, quoting
becomes impossibly awkward.
Then perhaps you should refrain from replying from your phone
entirely.

It would be exactly the same as being incomprehensible, and save you
time.
--
Terry Austin

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.
Default User
2018-04-18 19:32:07 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Peter Trei
Post by David DeLaney
... Google Groups is NOT A NEWSREADER. It is, at best, an
unreliable article- displayer. It has never been a newsreader or
usable as one. It is WHY 25-year- old necroreplies pop up every so
often.
A newsreader is a an application which people use to read Usenet
News. I havent done a survey, but I suspect that GG is one of the
most widely use newsreaders. Getting snobby about people's choice of
reader is hardly helpful. I use xnews at home, but NNTP is stopped at
the firewall from work, so I use GG as well (and am doing do now).
From 2011 to recently, I was also using GG. Partly for the reason you
mention, plus I just wasn't doing much usenet.
Post by Peter Trei
All I'm asking is that, like you, I want people to leave enough
contest that I don't have to dredge up previous, marked-read and
invisible articles to understand Quaddie's one-line responses.
As discussed elsewhere, the GG mobile app seems to not provide any way
for quoting. That sucks. However, Quadiblock has been around long
enough to know that it's important and that he can copy and paste some
context in. So he chooses not to, because he doesn't care.


Brian
Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
2018-04-16 18:34:31 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On Monday, April 16, 2018 at 9:32:06 AM UTC-6, Panthera Tigris
On Monday, April 16, 2018 at 11:24:47 AM UTC-4, Quadibloc
Post by Quadibloc
Oh, dear, it's actually a two-volume work.
https://archive.org/details/comparativestudy01johnuoft
https://archive.org/details/comparativestudy02john
What are you talking about?
to this...
On Sunday, April 15, 2018 at 12:34:05 AM UTC-6, David DeLaney
Post by Quadibloc
A quick glance at the article in Wikipedia indicates that
some of the noun classes include two genders, artifacts, and
diminutives. The diminutive class also seems to include nouns
with the meaning of "sort of". Then there's one for living
things neither human nor animal (plants, e.g.) and one for
groups of humans.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swahili_language#Noun_classes
And starting with those that belong to the Emperor?
Dave, the celestial emporium of benevolent fake news
...I had replied that I looked up a book about languages related to Swahili.
Many newsreaders show articles in a "tree view", so that the
article to which a post is a reply is immediately above it, and
it's not necessary to repeat anything to provide context.
Unless, of course, you want people to know what the fuck you're
jibbering about.
--
Terry Austin

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.
Panthera Tigris Altaica
2018-04-16 22:32:32 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Quadibloc
Post by Panthera Tigris Altaica
Post by Quadibloc
Oh, dear, it's actually a two-volume work.
https://archive.org/details/comparativestudy01johnuoft
https://archive.org/details/comparativestudy02john
What are you talking about?
to this...
Post by Panthera Tigris Altaica
Post by Quadibloc
A quick glance at the article in Wikipedia indicates that some of
the noun classes include two genders, artifacts, and diminutives.
The diminutive class also seems to include nouns with the meaning
of "sort of". Then there's one for living things neither human
nor animal (plants, e.g.) and one for groups of humans.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swahili_language#Noun_classes
And starting with those that belong to the Emperor?
Dave, the celestial emporium of benevolent fake news
...I had replied that I looked up a book about languages related to Swahili.
Many newsreaders show articles in a "tree view",
Not all. Google Groups does not, or at least does not have one that I can use in Firefox.
Post by Quadibloc
so that the article to which a
post is a reply is immediately above it, and it's not necessary to repeat
anything to provide context.
You blithering idiot, if it wasn't bloody necessary, I, and numerous others, wouldn't have pointed out how fucking inconsiderate you are. You _deliberately_ delete context... just because. Unfortunately one of the other things that Google Groups lacks is a killfile.
Post by Quadibloc
John Savard
Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
2018-04-16 23:31:12 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Panthera Tigris Altaica
On Monday, April 16, 2018 at 9:32:06 AM UTC-6, Panthera Tigris
Altaica wr
On Monday, April 16, 2018 at 11:24:47 AM UTC-4, Quadibloc
Post by Quadibloc
Oh, dear, it's actually a two-volume work.
https://archive.org/details/comparativestudy01johnuoft
https://archive.org/details/comparativestudy02john
What are you talking about?
to this...
On Sunday, April 15, 2018 at 12:34:05 AM UTC-6, David DeLaney
Post by Quadibloc
A quick glance at the article in Wikipedia indicates that
some of the noun classes include two genders, artifacts,
and diminutives. The diminutive class also seems to include
nouns with the meaning of "sort of". Then there's one for
living things neither human nor animal (plants, e.g.) and
one for groups of humans.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swahili_language#Noun_classes
And starting with those that belong to the Emperor?
Dave, the celestial emporium of benevolent fake news
...I had replied that I looked up a book about languages
related to Swahi
li.
Many newsreaders show articles in a "tree view",
Not all. Google Groups does not, or at least does not have one
that I can use in Firefox.
so that the article to which a
post is a reply is immediately above it, and it's not necessary to repeat
anything to provide context.
You blithering idiot, if it wasn't bloody necessary, I, and
numerous others, wouldn't have pointed out how fucking
inconsiderate you are. You _deliberately_ delete context... just
because.
Since it has been pointed out to him numberous times, the *only*
reasonable conclusion one can reach is that he actively *wants* for
no one to understand what he's jibbering about.

Given how fucking *stupid* he looks when you *do* understand what
he's talking about (this thread, for instance), it seems a
reasonable decision on his part, to me.
--
Terry Austin

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.
Dorothy J Heydt
2018-04-16 22:00:49 UTC
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Post by Panthera Tigris Altaica
Post by Quadibloc
Oh, dear, it's actually a two-volume work.
https://archive.org/details/comparativestudy01johnuoft
https://archive.org/details/comparativestudy02john
What are you talking about? You insist on trimming everything before you
reply. This gives no context. Those of us who don't use threaded
newsreaders cannot tell which post you're replying to,
I DO use a threaded newsreader, and I don't know what he's
talking about either.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Quadibloc
2018-04-16 23:26:19 UTC
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Post by Dorothy J Heydt
I DO use a threaded newsreader, and I don't know what he's
talking about either.
Well, even threaded newsreaders don't force you to open the earlier posts.

Basically, David DeLaney made an offhand, humorous comment about Swahili
grammar.

I noted that was enough for me to do some Googling; from the Wikipedia article,
Swahili doesn't have a special form for the Emperor (Japanese, of course, does),
but I saw other interesting things about it - some noun forms, though, were
vestigial in Swahili. So I looked up other Bantu languages... and they were
absent in Zulu.

So to sate my curiosity, I looked up a book about the comparative grammar of the
Bantu languages at the Internet Archive.

And I made the comment, after recounting this story, that, yes, I do visit TV
Tropes occasionally, why do you ask?

John Savard
Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
2018-04-16 23:29:14 UTC
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In article
Post by Panthera Tigris Altaica
Post by Quadibloc
Oh, dear, it's actually a two-volume work.
https://archive.org/details/comparativestudy01johnuoft
https://archive.org/details/comparativestudy02john
What are you talking about? You insist on trimming everything
before you reply. This gives no context. Those of us who don't
use threaded newsreaders cannot tell which post you're replying
to,
I DO use a threaded newsreader, and I don't know what he's
talking about either.
Heh. Neither does Quaddie, about 99.9999% of the time.
--
Terry Austin

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.
Garrett Wollman
2018-04-17 03:02:09 UTC
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Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Panthera Tigris Altaica
Post by Quadibloc
Oh, dear, it's actually a two-volume work.
https://archive.org/details/comparativestudy01johnuoft
https://archive.org/details/comparativestudy02john
What are you talking about? You insist on trimming everything before you
reply. This gives no context. Those of us who don't use threaded
newsreaders cannot tell which post you're replying to,
I DO use a threaded newsreader, and I don't know what he's
talking about either.
I don't normally read Savard's posts, but it was a trivial exercise to
look at the parent article of the one quoted above, to wit,
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
luckily I've been able to find an old 800-page book comparing the various
Bantu and semi-Bantu languages on the Internet Archive, and I may be able
to satiate my idle curiosity through skimming it...
which makes it entirely clear (if unnecessarily oblique).

Note that Savard uses Google Groups, as is clear from his message-IDs.

-GAWollman
--
Garrett A. Wollman | "Act to avoid constraining the future; if you can,
***@bimajority.org| act to remove constraint from the future. This is
Opinions not shared by| a thing you can do, are able to do, to do together."
my employers. | - Graydon Saunders, _A Succession of Bad Days_ (2015)
Dimensional Traveler
2018-04-13 03:49:55 UTC
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Post by Joy Beeson
On Wed, 11 Apr 2018 15:52:28 -0400, Lawrence Watt-Evans
Post by Lawrence Watt-Evans
My understanding is that Swahili has eight categories of nouns, and
the only reason they aren't considered genders is that eight is too
many; it squicks linguists out.
Can't imagine why; there are critters that have eight sexes.
Can you name eight?
--
Inquiring minds want to know while minds with a self-preservation
instinct are running screaming.
Quadibloc
2018-04-13 04:58:37 UTC
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Post by Joy Beeson
On Wed, 11 Apr 2018 15:52:28 -0400, Lawrence Watt-Evans
Post by Lawrence Watt-Evans
My understanding is that Swahili has eight categories of nouns, and
the only reason they aren't considered genders is that eight is too
many; it squicks linguists out.
Can't imagine why; there are critters that have eight sexes.
On Earth, and not in science-fiction stories?

John Savard
Lawrence Watt-Evans
2018-04-13 05:03:44 UTC
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On Thu, 12 Apr 2018 21:58:00 -0300, Joy Beeson
Post by Joy Beeson
On Wed, 11 Apr 2018 15:52:28 -0400, Lawrence Watt-Evans
Post by Lawrence Watt-Evans
My understanding is that Swahili has eight categories of nouns, and
the only reason they aren't considered genders is that eight is too
many; it squicks linguists out.
Can't imagine why; there are critters that have eight sexes.
Are there? I'm not aware of any.
--
My webpage is at http://www.watt-evans.com
My latest novel is Stone Unturned: A Legend of Ethshar.
See http://www.ethshar.com/StoneUnturned.shtml
-dsr-
2018-04-13 17:23:40 UTC
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Post by Lawrence Watt-Evans
On Thu, 12 Apr 2018 21:58:00 -0300, Joy Beeson
Post by Joy Beeson
On Wed, 11 Apr 2018 15:52:28 -0400, Lawrence Watt-Evans
Post by Lawrence Watt-Evans
My understanding is that Swahili has eight categories of nouns, and
the only reason they aren't considered genders is that eight is too
many; it squicks linguists out.
Can't imagine why; there are critters that have eight sexes.
Are there? I'm not aware of any.
I don't know about eight exactly, but thousands...

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8672296

TL;DR: Basidiomycetous fungi display thousands of different mating types,
and the graph of who can mate with whom to produce viable offspring is
not a simple anyone in column A with anyone in column B.

They're one of several kinds of fungi with tetrapolar genetics.

Tetrapolar systems promote outbreeding, as any individual can only
interbreed with 25% of its siblings from a cross: a1b1 can mate with a2b2,
but not with a1b1, a1b2 or a2b1.

Brewer's yeast, on the other hand, is bipolar.

-dsr-
Peter Trei
2018-04-16 13:50:04 UTC
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Post by Lawrence Watt-Evans
On Thu, 12 Apr 2018 21:58:00 -0300, Joy Beeson
Post by Joy Beeson
On Wed, 11 Apr 2018 15:52:28 -0400, Lawrence Watt-Evans
Post by Lawrence Watt-Evans
My understanding is that Swahili has eight categories of nouns, and
the only reason they aren't considered genders is that eight is too
many; it squicks linguists out.
Can't imagine why; there are critters that have eight sexes.
Are there? I'm not aware of any.
Obligatory:

"Saturday Night on Antarius"
http://www.ragingpencils.com/extras/subitzky.html

pt
Lawrence Watt-Evans
2018-04-11 19:48:57 UTC
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On Wed, 11 Apr 2018 02:20:58 -0500, David DeLaney
Post by David DeLaney
Post by Christian Weisgerber
Post by Default User
Are you sure that means the same thing? This has no pronouns at all
with sex differention. So no man or woman, only person. No brother or
sister, only sibling. No mother or father, only parent.
I think you are confused what a "pronoun" is.
He or she may be, but the point was that that language also didn't HAVE he,
OR she, or their inflected forms. Just neuter pronouns. It's not uncommon for
Earthly languages to have neuter pronouns _along with_ the gendered ones; that
isn't what's being explored here.
Finnish and Chinese don't have any gendered pronouns at all. They do,
however, have words for "man," "woman," etc.
--
My webpage is at http://www.watt-evans.com
My latest novel is Stone Unturned: A Legend of Ethshar.
See http://www.ethshar.com/StoneUnturned.shtml
Gene Wirchenko
2018-04-12 04:01:57 UTC
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On Wed, 11 Apr 2018 15:48:57 -0400, Lawrence Watt-Evans
<***@gmail.com> wrote:

[snip]
Post by Lawrence Watt-Evans
Finnish and Chinese don't have any gendered pronouns at all. They do,
however, have words for "man," "woman," etc.
My understanding is that Chinese has pronouns for he and she.
They are pronounced the same but written differently. See section
"Grammar" at http://akarlin.com/2011/07/zhongwen/

Sincerely,

Gene Wirchenko
Lawrence Watt-Evans
2018-04-12 08:18:53 UTC
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Post by Gene Wirchenko
On Wed, 11 Apr 2018 15:48:57 -0400, Lawrence Watt-Evans
[snip]
Post by Lawrence Watt-Evans
Finnish and Chinese don't have any gendered pronouns at all. They do,
however, have words for "man," "woman," etc.
My understanding is that Chinese has pronouns for he and she.
They are pronounced the same but written differently. See section
"Grammar" at http://akarlin.com/2011/07/zhongwen/
Okay, yes, WRITTEN Chinese has gendered pronouns, but SPOKEN Mandarin
or Wu does not.
--
My webpage is at http://www.watt-evans.com
My latest novel is Stone Unturned: A Legend of Ethshar.
See http://www.ethshar.com/StoneUnturned.shtml
Christian Weisgerber
2018-04-12 16:32:15 UTC
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Post by Gene Wirchenko
Post by Lawrence Watt-Evans
Finnish and Chinese don't have any gendered pronouns at all. They do,
however, have words for "man," "woman," etc.
My understanding is that Chinese has pronouns for he and she.
They are pronounced the same but written differently. See section
"Grammar" at http://akarlin.com/2011/07/zhongwen/
IIRC, these are spelling neologisms that were introduced in the
19th century to be better able to translate from European languages.
--
Christian "naddy" Weisgerber ***@mips.inka.de
J. Clarke
2018-04-10 03:27:08 UTC
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On Mon, 9 Apr 2018 22:27:21 -0000 (UTC), Christian Weisgerber
Post by Christian Weisgerber
Post by Default User
The obvious recent candidate is Leckie's Ancillary series. Not only do
the Radchaai have equality, there is little outward difference in dress
and manner. The language has no pronouns that distinguish gender.
That is a common property in human languages and has fuck all to
do with gender equality.
"Sex-based and Non-sex-based Gender Systems"
http://wals.info/feature/31A#1/26/148
I think this does not mean what you think it means.
Greg Goss
2018-04-10 13:06:48 UTC
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Post by Christian Weisgerber
Post by Default User
The obvious recent candidate is Leckie's Ancillary series. Not only do
the Radchaai have equality, there is little outward difference in dress
and manner. The language has no pronouns that distinguish gender.
That is a common property in human languages and has fuck all to
do with gender equality.
In the Honorverse, the gender of an unknown or hypothetical takes
pronouns that match the speaker.
--
We are geeks. Resistance is voltage over current.
Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
2018-04-09 22:29:49 UTC
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Post by The Zygon
Has anyone ever read a science fiction story about a society in
which men and women are really treated equally? I have read
some in which it _said_ that men and women are equal. But one
detects subtle differences in treatment in the story suggesting
inequality.
One might consider dwarves in Discworld, who are so indistinguishable
that the biggest challenge in their mating rituals is to identify who
*is* a member of the opposite sex.
--
Terry Austin

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.
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