Discussion:
OT predicted - Urbmons & Vertical Cities & Withstand Forces Of Nature
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a425couple
2018-02-24 17:18:17 UTC
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Vertical Cities Are The Future Of Urban Living.
But How Do You Make Them Withstand Forces Of Nature?

(We are not yet at Silverbergs Urban Monads,,,, but--)

Mitsubishi Heavy IndustriesVoice Move the World Forward

The concept of the ‘vertical city’ received wide attention with the
construction of the Burj Khalifa in Dubai.
With extremely tall buildings like this, one major challenge is managing
the effects of severe winds.
By Andrea Willige

In the early 1950s, Shenzhen in south-eastern China was a fishing
village with only a few thousand inhabitants. Last year, its residents
numbered around 11 million.

Shutterstock
Shenzhen City Center

While this may be a particularly extreme example of urban growth, the UN
predicts that by 2030, two-thirds of the global population will live in
cities. In many urban centers there is already a shortage of space and
expanding outwards isn’t always an option.

As a result, like never before, cities are going vertical.

Vertical cities, not skyscrapers

The concept of the ‘vertical city’ received wide attention with the
construction of the Burj Khalifa in Dubai. The tallest building in the
world, it was one of the first to be conceived as a mixed-use skyscraper
with hotel accommodation, residential apartments and offices.

Not surprisingly, China has taken a page out of Dubai’s book as part of
its rapid urban growth which saw almost 500 million people move from
rural areas into cities in the last 35 years. Five of the ten tallest
buildings in the world can be found in ‘megalopolises’ such as Shanghai,
Guangzhou and Hong Kong.

Shenzhen’s Ping An Finance Centre is a case in point. Measuring 600
meters, it is the fourth tallest building in the world and the second
tallest in China. Located in the CBD financial district of Shenzhen, it
encompasses 118 floors and an area of 600,000 square meters. In addition
to office space and a five-star boutique hotel, it also sports a
360-degree sightseeing floor.

Motion sickness

With extremely tall buildings like this, one major challenge is managing
the effects of severe winds. Most skyscrapers can move several feet in
either direction without sustaining structural damage.

The problem is that sway affects the people living and working in
ultra-high-rise buildings. Research has shown that even a small amount
of movement can trigger motion sickness, sleepiness and anxiety. Sway
can also impact on safety and stability within these gravity-defying
structures, risking movement of unsecured items.

Typically, horizontal movement can be reduced by tightening up the
building’s steel structure to make it more rigid. Many new buildings
also have one or more concrete cores built into their center to increase
resistance to movement. However, for very tall skyscrapers like the Ping
An Finance Centre, this is not sufficient.

Mitsubishi Heavy Industries
A vibration control device at Shanghai World Financial Center.

Creating a counterweight

To keep sway at bay at the Ping An building, Mitsubishi Heavy Industries
Machinery Systems installed a vibration control device featuring two
300-ton weights.

The company had experience of dealing with ultra-high-rises, having
previously put in place a smaller system with two 150-ton weights at
Shanghai World Financial Centre, which is 492 meters in height.

At Ping An Financial Centre, the two 300-ton weights and associated
control unit are installed 524 meters above the ground – close to the roof.

When the building begins to sway in high winds, sensors at the top of
the skyscraper detect the motion. Based on instant computer
calculations, the weights are then activated to counter-act the
movement. Through the action of the device, sway can be reduced by
approximately 40%.

Achieving this dramatic reduction in lateral movement will be an
important factor in the construction of new high-rise buildings, making
them more livable as more and more of the world’s population are drawn
to large cities.

Andrea has spent many years creating content for the international
business and technology press, working as a PR advisor to some of the
world's largest technology companies.

For the original version of this article and more, please visit SPECTRA,
the online media powered by Mitsubishi Heavy Industries Group.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/mitsubishiheavyindustries/2018/01/24/vertical-cities-are-the-future-of-urban-living-but-how-do-you-make-them-withstand-forces-of-nature/#41785e516296
nuny@bid.nes
2018-02-24 21:22:38 UTC
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Post by a425couple
Vertical Cities Are The Future Of Urban Living.
But How Do You Make Them Withstand Forces Of Nature?
(We are not yet at Silverbergs Urban Monads,,,, but--)
Did Silverberg steal the idea from Soleri (of Arcology, uh, "fame") or was it the other way around?
Post by a425couple
Mitsubishi Heavy Industries Voice Move the World Forward
This isn't really a new problem (Doc Smith's Skylark crew bemoaned the nonexistence of truly rigid materials) or technology. Tesla's "earthquake machine" could be seen as the direct ancestor of active sway control. I'm pretty sure (footnote) they couldn't build buildings tall enough to be threatened by wind effects back then, but you never know.

(footnote) I'm too lazy to research it just now.


Mark L. Fergerson
Titus G
2018-02-24 23:53:00 UTC
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Post by a425couple
Vertical Cities Are The Future Of Urban Living.
But How Do You Make Them Withstand Forces Of Nature?
There is a television series called Megastructures which has described
(in laypersons' terms) some of the engineering and design solutions to
several recent extremely tall buildings. I recall the massive earthworks
in Dubai for foundations in sand and another example where wind was
funnelled through holes in the building. Fascinating stuff.
a425couple
2018-02-25 00:50:06 UTC
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Post by ***@bid.nes
Post by a425couple
Vertical Cities Are The Future Of Urban Living.
But How Do You Make Them Withstand Forces Of Nature?
(We are not yet at Silverbergs Urban Monads,,,, but--)
Did Silverberg steal the idea from Soleri (of Arcology, uh, "fame")
or was it the other way around?

Well, the words they use are similar, but the
execution seems totally different.

from
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_World_Inside
"The World Inside is a science fiction novel by American writer
Robert Silverberg, published in 1971. --
Urban Monads (Urbmons), mammoth thousand-floor skyscrapers ---
Each building can hold approximately 800,000 people, "

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paolo_Soleri,
1919-2013
"He began building Arcosanti in 1970 with the help of architecture
and design students, as a place to test his urban design hypotheses."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arcosanti
https://www.google.com/search?tbm=isch&source=hp&biw=1920&bih=949&ei=iwaSWoWwKNO-jwPI4r_4Dg&q=Arcosanti&oq=Arcosanti&gs_l=img.3...2297.2297.0.3359.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0..0.0....0...1ac.1.64.img..0.0.0....0.WSR27J57pHE

I can not see any building over about 5 stories.
Post by ***@bid.nes
(footnote) I'm too lazy to research it just now.
Mark L. Fergerson
Well, I looked some, kind of looks like a tie as to time,
but I'll let anyone declare a winner!
Ahasuerus
2018-02-25 04:50:25 UTC
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Post by ***@bid.nes
Post by ***@bid.nes
Post by a425couple
Vertical Cities Are The Future Of Urban Living.
But How Do You Make Them Withstand Forces Of Nature?
(We are not yet at Silverbergs Urban Monads,,,, but--)
Did Silverberg steal the idea from Soleri (of Arcology, uh, "fame")
or was it the other way around?
Well, the words they use are similar, but the
execution seems totally different.
from
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_World_Inside
"The World Inside is a science fiction novel by American writer
Robert Silverberg, published in 1971. --
Urban Monads (Urbmons), mammoth thousand-floor skyscrapers ---
Each building can hold approximately 800,000 people, "
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paolo_Soleri,
1919-2013
"He began building Arcosanti in 1970 with the help of architecture
and design students, as a place to test his urban design hypotheses."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arcosanti
https://www.google.com/search?tbm=isch&source=hp&biw=1920&bih=949&ei=iwaSWoWwKNO-jwPI4r_4Dg&q=Arcosanti&oq=Arcosanti&gs_l=img.3...2297.2297.0.3359.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0..0.0....0...1ac.1.64.img..0.0.0....0.WSR27J57pHE
I can not see any building over about 5 stories.
Post by ***@bid.nes
(footnote) I'm too lazy to research it just now.
Mark L. Fergerson
Well, I looked some, kind of looks like a tie as to time,
but I'll let anyone declare a winner!
Going way back (1929), there is Jan Weiss's
(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jan_Weiss) surrealistic _House of
a Thousand Floors_ (http://www.isfdb.org/cgi-bin/title.cgi?7758).
It's available in French, German and some other languages, but I am
unaware of an English version.
Cryptoengineer
2018-02-25 03:32:43 UTC
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Post by ***@bid.nes
Post by a425couple
Vertical Cities Are The Future Of Urban Living.
But How Do You Make Them Withstand Forces Of Nature?
(We are not yet at Silverbergs Urban Monads,,,, but--)
Did Silverberg steal the idea from Soleri (of Arcology, uh, "fame")
or was it the other way around?
Post by a425couple
Mitsubishi Heavy Industries Voice Move the World Forward
This isn't really a new problem (Doc Smith's Skylark crew bemoaned
the nonexistence of truly rigid materials) or technology. Tesla's
"earthquake machine" could be seen as the direct ancestor of active
sway control. I'm pretty sure (footnote) they couldn't build
buildings tall enough to be threatened by wind effects back then,
but you never know.
(footnote) I'm too lazy to research it just now.
You might want to look at the Taipei 101 building - it has a 660 ton
'tuned mass damper' near the top, which counters sway. Its a tourist
attraction in its own right.

pt
Quadibloc
2018-02-26 00:40:40 UTC
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I don't know about "threatened", but wind loads are considered in determining the structural strength needed even for quite modest structures.
J. Clarke
2018-02-26 01:07:41 UTC
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On Sun, 25 Feb 2018 16:40:40 -0800 (PST), Quadibloc
Post by Quadibloc
I don't know about "threatened", but wind loads are considered in determining the structural strength needed even for quite modest structures.
There are something like nine classes of residential garage door
intended for different windload areas.
Bill Dugan
2018-02-26 16:51:43 UTC
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On Sun, 25 Feb 2018 16:40:40 -0800 (PST), Quadibloc
Post by Quadibloc
I don't know about "threatened", but wind loads are considered in determining the structural strength needed even for quite modest structures.
We had to do it to get a permit to add on to a single-family house.
Gene Wirchenko
2018-02-25 04:44:42 UTC
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On Sat, 24 Feb 2018 09:18:17 -0800, a425couple
<***@hotmail.com> wrote:

[snip]
Post by a425couple
At Ping An Financial Centre, the two 300-ton weights and associated
control unit are installed 524 meters above the ground – close to the roof.
When the building begins to sway in high winds, sensors at the top of
the skyscraper detect the motion. Based on instant computer
calculations, the weights are then activated to counter-act the
movement. Through the action of the device, sway can be reduced by
approximately 40%.
Activated how?

Weight is weight.

[snip]

Sincerely,

Gene Wirchenko
Greg Goss
2018-02-25 05:53:46 UTC
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Post by Gene Wirchenko
On Sat, 24 Feb 2018 09:18:17 -0800, a425couple
[snip]
Post by a425couple
At Ping An Financial Centre, the two 300-ton weights and associated
control unit are installed 524 meters above the ground – close to the roof.
When the building begins to sway in high winds, sensors at the top of
the skyscraper detect the motion. Based on instant computer
calculations, the weights are then activated to counter-act the
movement. Through the action of the device, sway can be reduced by
approximately 40%.
Activated how?
Weight is weight.
When the building is about to start moving to the right, the weight
pushes itself to the right, applying a force to the left on the
building structure. A few moments later, it pushes itself the other
way, recentering itself and countering the harmonic movement of the
building back to center.

Setting the weight in a nest of shock absorbers is less effective, but
a LOT simpler.
--
We are geeks. Resistance is voltage over current.
Gene Wirchenko
2018-02-26 04:08:03 UTC
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Post by Greg Goss
Post by Gene Wirchenko
On Sat, 24 Feb 2018 09:18:17 -0800, a425couple
[snip]
Post by a425couple
At Ping An Financial Centre, the two 300-ton weights and associated
control unit are installed 524 meters above the ground – close to the roof.
When the building begins to sway in high winds, sensors at the top of
the skyscraper detect the motion. Based on instant computer
calculations, the weights are then activated to counter-act the
movement. Through the action of the device, sway can be reduced by
approximately 40%.
Activated how?
Weight is weight.
When the building is about to start moving to the right, the weight
pushes itself to the right, applying a force to the left on the
building structure. A few moments later, it pushes itself the other
way, recentering itself and countering the harmonic movement of the
building back to center.
I do not follow that at all. A weight pushing itself?
Post by Greg Goss
Setting the weight in a nest of shock absorbers is less effective, but
a LOT simpler.
Sincerely,

Gene Wirchenko
Greg Goss
2018-02-26 06:34:05 UTC
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Post by Gene Wirchenko
Post by Greg Goss
Post by Gene Wirchenko
Post by a425couple
When the building begins to sway in high winds, sensors at the top of
the skyscraper detect the motion. Based on instant computer
calculations, the weights are then activated to counter-act the
movement. Through the action of the device, sway can be reduced by
approximately 40%.
Activated how?
Weight is weight.
When the building is about to start moving to the right, the weight
pushes itself to the right, applying a force to the left on the
building structure. A few moments later, it pushes itself the other
way, recentering itself and countering the harmonic movement of the
building back to center.
I do not follow that at all. A weight pushing itself?
The weight pushes against the building frame. Or the machinery pushes
the weight. Either way, the weight moves relative to the building
framework. For me, it was easier to visualize the action taking place
from the weight's perspective.
--
We are geeks. Resistance is voltage over current.
Gene Wirchenko
2018-02-26 18:22:20 UTC
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Post by Greg Goss
Post by Gene Wirchenko
Post by Greg Goss
Post by Gene Wirchenko
Post by a425couple
When the building begins to sway in high winds, sensors at the top of
the skyscraper detect the motion. Based on instant computer
calculations, the weights are then activated to counter-act the
movement. Through the action of the device, sway can be reduced by
approximately 40%.
Activated how?
Weight is weight.
When the building is about to start moving to the right, the weight
pushes itself to the right, applying a force to the left on the
building structure. A few moments later, it pushes itself the other
way, recentering itself and countering the harmonic movement of the
building back to center.
I do not follow that at all. A weight pushing itself?
The weight pushes against the building frame. Or the machinery pushes
the weight. Either way, the weight moves relative to the building
framework. For me, it was easier to visualize the action taking place
from the weight's perspective.
So a machine pushes the wieght to make it count? I think I see,
barely. A Website on this?

And for me, it was quite confusing. We are not twin brothers.
Either that, or I am definitely not the engineering twin.

Sincerely,

Gene Wirchenko
Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
2018-02-26 17:30:19 UTC
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Post by Gene Wirchenko
Post by Greg Goss
Post by Gene Wirchenko
Post by Greg Goss
Post by Gene Wirchenko
Post by a425couple
When the building begins to sway in high winds, sensors at
the top of the skyscraper detect the motion. Based on
instant computer calculations, the weights are then
activated to counter-act the movement. Through the action of
the device, sway can be reduced by approximately 40%.
Activated how?
Weight is weight.
When the building is about to start moving to the right, the
weight pushes itself to the right, applying a force to the
left on the building structure. A few moments later, it
pushes itself the other way, recentering itself and countering
the harmonic movement of the building back to center.
I do not follow that at all. A weight pushing itself?
The weight pushes against the building frame. Or the machinery
pushes the weight. Either way, the weight moves relative to the
building framework. For me, it was easier to visualize the
action taking place from the weight's perspective.
So a machine pushes the wieght to make it count? I think I see,
barely. A Website on this?
And for me, it was quite confusing. We are not twin
brothers.
Either that, or I am definitely not the engineering twin.
Newton's Third Law: "For every action, there is an equal and
opposite reaction." Weight moves one way, building moves the other.
This counters the building moving the first way due to outside
forces (the earthquake). Just like if you stumble to the left, and
I push you to the right to keep you from falling over (while also
moving myself to the left, but hopefully in a more controlled
fashion).

This is grade school science stuff.
--
Terry Austin

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.
Quadibloc
2018-02-26 18:54:40 UTC
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Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
Post by Greg Goss
When the building is about to start moving to the right, the
weight pushes itself to the right, applying a force to the
left on the building structure. A few moments later, it
pushes itself the other way, recentering itself and countering
the harmonic movement of the building back to center.
Newton's Third Law: "For every action, there is an equal and
opposite reaction."
That covers the "about to start", but not the "a few moments later"; for that,
some actual mechanism in the building must have actually pushed on the weight.

Of course, you may have been responding to a different part of the discussion
that I had snipped.

John Savard
Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
2018-02-26 17:58:14 UTC
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On Monday, February 26, 2018 at 11:30:25 AM UTC-7, Jibini Kula
Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
Post by Greg Goss
When the building is about to start moving to the right,
the weight pushes itself to the right, applying a force to
the left on the building structure. A few moments later,
it pushes itself the other way, recentering itself and
countering the harmonic movement of the building back to
center.
Newton's Third Law: "For every action, there is an equal and
opposite reaction."
That covers the "about to start", but not the "a few moments
later"; for that, some actual mechanism in the building must
have actually pushed on the weight.
Are you really incapable of making the conceptual leap that the
hydraulic piston assembly is part of the weight device? What pushes a
car foward down the road?
Of course, you may have been responding to a different part of
the discussion that I had snipped.
Seems likely, since you go out of your way to snip out anything
actually relevant to context.
--
Terry Austin

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.
Quadibloc
2018-02-26 19:53:15 UTC
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Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
Are you really incapable of making the conceptual leap that the
hydraulic piston assembly is part of the weight device? What pushes a
car foward down the road?
Well, if someone writes that "a weight pushes itself", they might be referring
to that weight's own inertia. When they get into more complicated actions, of
course there's some kind of reactive gadgetry in there, but that gadgetry
involves stuff that actively pushes... on a weight, perhaps. It isn't the weight
itself that's doing the pushing any more.

So it isn't correct to just call that which dampens a building's response to the
wind "a weight". Making the building more top-heavy just makes matters worse.
Instead you have stuff like hydraulic pistons, dampeners, pendulums with
carefully chosen resonant frequencies. Stuff that has to be named in order that
people will be able to know what you're talking about.

John Savard
Peter Trei
2018-02-26 20:43:36 UTC
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Post by Quadibloc
Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
Are you really incapable of making the conceptual leap that the
hydraulic piston assembly is part of the weight device? What pushes a
car foward down the road?
Well, if someone writes that "a weight pushes itself", they might be referring
to that weight's own inertia. When they get into more complicated actions, of
course there's some kind of reactive gadgetry in there, but that gadgetry
involves stuff that actively pushes... on a weight, perhaps. It isn't the weight
itself that's doing the pushing any more.
So it isn't correct to just call that which dampens a building's response to the
wind "a weight". Making the building more top-heavy just makes matters worse.
Instead you have stuff like hydraulic pistons, dampeners, pendulums with
carefully chosen resonant frequencies. Stuff that has to be named in order that
people will be able to know what you're talking about.
John Savard
The thing you're looking for is a 'tuned mass damper'. There's a very
low budget demo here:


There's a humungous one in the Taipei 101 building.

The key to realize is that a given tower has known sway frequency, and you can
set up an unpowered damper which greatly reduces that sway.

Active ones can be used as well.

pt
Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
2018-02-26 20:58:04 UTC
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On Monday, February 26, 2018 at 11:58:21 AM UTC-7, Jibini Kula
Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
Are you really incapable of making the conceptual leap that the
hydraulic piston assembly is part of the weight device? What
pushes a car foward down the road?
Well, if someone writes that "a weight pushes itself", they
might be referring to that weight's own inertia.
In context, clearly not. Unless you're an idiot.
--
Terry Austin

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.
a425couple
2018-02-26 23:25:33 UTC
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Post by Gene Wirchenko
Post by Greg Goss
Post by Gene Wirchenko
Post by Greg Goss
Post by Gene Wirchenko
Post by a425couple
When the building begins to sway in high winds, sensors at the top of
the skyscraper detect the motion. Based on instant computer
calculations, the weights are then activated to counter-act the
movement. Through the action of the device, sway can be reduced by
approximately 40%.
Activated how?
Weight is weight.
When the building is about to start moving to the right, the weight
pushes itself to the right, applying a force to the left on the
building structure. A few moments later, it pushes itself the other
way, recentering itself and countering the harmonic movement of the
building back to center.
I do not follow that at all. A weight pushing itself?
The weight pushes against the building frame. Or the machinery pushes
the weight. Either way, the weight moves relative to the building
framework. For me, it was easier to visualize the action taking place
from the weight's perspective.
So a machine pushes the wieght to make it count? I think I see,
barely. A Website on this?
And for me, it was quite confusing. We are not twin brothers.
Either that, or I am definitely not the engineering twin.
Sincerely, Gene Wirchenko
I think the best comparison, is where a tightrope walker
is carrying a long semi-heavy pole. If he starts to tip,
almost imperceptible movement of the pole, will correct him.

This story has some pictures of one in a building.
https://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/infrastructure/a14564/the-121-story-tower-that-never-sways/

Why Do Tightrope Walkers Carry A Pole/Bar During Their Performance?
https://www.scienceabc.com/eyeopeners/why-tightrope-walkers-carry-a-polebar-during-their-performance.html
Quadibloc
2018-02-25 09:52:04 UTC
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Of course, one issue of Magnus: Robot Fighter, 4,000 A.D. had them solve the
problem the _hard_ way...

Thus, a number of the extremely tall buildings of North Am were damaged by "forces
they were never designed to withstand" when an ancient battle-rob subverted
Weather Control in the Grand Canyon.

John Savard
Kevrob
2018-02-25 15:20:17 UTC
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Post by Quadibloc
Of course, one issue of Magnus: Robot Fighter, 4,000 A.D. had them solve the
problem the _hard_ way...
Thus, a number of the extremely tall buildings of North Am were damaged by "forces
they were never designed to withstand" when an ancient battle-rob subverted
Weather Control in the Grand Canyon.
Silverbob's world-building seems like he flipped Asimov's
"Caves of Steel" on its head. Instead of massive habitats
buried beneath an agricultural surface, he has super-tall
buildings rising over the amber waves of grain.

I'm not sure which makes more sense for farming. There are
"urban farms" nowadays which grow veggies totally indoors.

https://www.fastcompany.com/40420610/has-this-silicon-valley-startup-finally-nailed-the-indoor-farming-model

http://www.urbangardensweb.com/2015/10/18/indoor-underground-urban-farms-growing-in-size-and-number/

Kevin R
David DeLaney
2018-02-27 03:21:30 UTC
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Hodgson's _The Night Land_ had fairly tall indoor-cities ... but they were
pyramidal, not skyscraping.

Dave, and the inhabitants had Reasons to stay indoors
--
\/David DeLaney posting thru EarthLink - "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
my gatekeeper archives are no longer accessible :( / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.
Dimensional Traveler
2018-02-27 05:41:56 UTC
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Post by David DeLaney
Hodgson's _The Night Land_ had fairly tall indoor-cities ... but they were
pyramidal, not skyscraping.
More like artificial mountains. Large enough to house millions and tall
enough for different populations to acclimate/evolve for different
atmospheric densities.
Post by David DeLaney
Dave, and the inhabitants had Reasons to stay indoors
To put it mildly.
--
Inquiring minds want to know while minds with a self-preservation
instinct are running screaming.
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