Discussion:
Was Herbert's _Fosadi Experiment_ and preparation for _Dune_?
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The Zygon
2018-03-20 04:09:11 UTC
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I see a lot of the _Dosadi Experiment_ in _Dune_.
The Zygon
2018-03-20 04:10:46 UTC
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On Tuesday, March 20, 2018 at 12:09:14 AM UTC-4, The Zygon wrote:
> I see a lot of the _Dosadi Experiment_ in _Dune_.

Maybe I should have said "precursor" and not "preparation".
Moriarty
2018-03-20 05:22:14 UTC
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On Tuesday, March 20, 2018 at 3:10:48 PM UTC+11, The Zygon wrote:
> On Tuesday, March 20, 2018 at 12:09:14 AM UTC-4, The Zygon wrote:
> > I see a lot of the _Dosadi Experiment_ in _Dune_.
>
> Maybe I should have said "precursor" and not "preparation".

When I read "The Dosadi Experiment" for the first time a couple of years ago, I had exactly the same reaction and checked the publication dates. It certainly seemed to me that some of the ideas Herbert had for it, he later expanded on in "Dune".

Unfortunately, "The Dosadi Experiment" (1977) and "Dune" (1965) put paid to that theory.

-Moriarty
The Zygon
2018-03-23 07:38:09 UTC
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On Tuesday, March 20, 2018 at 1:22:17 AM UTC-4, Moriarty wrote:
> On Tuesday, March 20, 2018 at 3:10:48 PM UTC+11, The Zygon wrote:
> > On Tuesday, March 20, 2018 at 12:09:14 AM UTC-4, The Zygon wrote:
> > > I see a lot of the _Dosadi Experiment_ in _Dune_.
> >
> > Maybe I should have said "precursor" and not "preparation".
>
> When I read "The Dosadi Experiment" for the first time a couple of years ago, I had exactly the same reaction and checked the publication dates. It certainly seemed to me that some of the ideas Herbert had for it, he later expanded on in "Dune".
>
> Unfortunately, "The Dosadi Experiment" (1977) and "Dune" (1965) put paid to that theory.
>
> -Moriarty

Oops!
David Johnston
2018-03-20 05:50:32 UTC
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On 2018-03-19 10:09 PM, The Zygon wrote:
> I see a lot of the _Dosadi Experiment_ in _Dune_.
>

I once did a thing where I tried to list themes that authors kept going
to back to, like Card's people who came up with original ideas because
they were kept in ignorance in some way and Anthony's "rule by a
aristocracy of capability", Herbert's entry was "making people
supercapable by harsh environmental conditions".
Ted Nolan <tednolan>
2018-03-20 05:51:52 UTC
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In article <p8q7f8$aft$***@gioia.aioe.org>,
David Johnston <***@yahoo.com> wrote:
>On 2018-03-19 10:09 PM, The Zygon wrote:
>> I see a lot of the _Dosadi Experiment_ in _Dune_.
>>
>
>I once did a thing where I tried to list themes that authors kept going
>to back to, like Card's people who came up with original ideas because
>they were kept in ignorance in some way and Anthony's "rule by a
>aristocracy of capability", Herbert's entry was "making people
>supercapable by harsh environmental conditions".

Sounds interesting. Could you post the list?
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The Zygon
2018-03-23 07:37:22 UTC
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On Tuesday, March 20, 2018 at 1:50:34 AM UTC-4, David Johnston wrote:
> On 2018-03-19 10:09 PM, The Zygon wrote:
> > I see a lot of the _Dosadi Experiment_ in _Dune_.
> >
>
> I once did a thing where I tried to list themes that authors kept going
> to back to, like Card's people who came up with original ideas because
> they were kept in ignorance in some way and Anthony's "rule by a
> aristocracy of capability", Herbert's entry was "making people
> supercapable by harsh environmental conditions".

Yes. And the notion that there are superior abilities hidden in our genes which are brought out by the sustained exposure to harsh environments. He also reprises the technique of quoting made up sources for enigmatic observations about humanity.

He also seems fascinated by the all homosexual unit which Philip of Macedonia had in his army. It is said that all members in the unit had mates who were also in the unit. From this he develops the homophobic idea that homosexuals are filled with self-hatred and hatred for humanity, and as such make excellent berserker troops. He even suggests that Generals through the ages have always encouraged unrequited homsexual feelings in their troops. The stress there is on "unrequited". That is supposed to make them more heroic fighters.

He mentions these ideas in _Dosadi_ and at least two of the Dune books. I think _Dune_ itself as well as _Chapterhouse Dune_
==
As for spotting recurring ideas used by authors, I used to think that Orson Scott Card wrote disproportionality often bout little boys. But after I read more of his books I changed my mind.
==
Please accept my apologies for _Forsadi_ instead of _Dorsadi_.
Stephen Harker
2018-03-23 21:08:01 UTC
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The Zygon <***@gmail.com> writes:

> On Tuesday, March 20, 2018 at 1:50:34 AM UTC-4, David Johnston wrote:
>> On 2018-03-19 10:09 PM, The Zygon wrote:
>> > I see a lot of the _Dosadi Experiment_ in _Dune_.
>> >
> [...]
>
> He also seems fascinated by the all homosexual unit which Philip of
> Macedonia had in his army. It is said that all members in the unit
> had mates who were also in the unit. From this he develops the
> homophobic idea that homosexuals are filled with self-hatred and
> hatred for humanity, and as such make excellent berserker troops. He
> even suggests that Generals through the ages have always encouraged
> unrequited homsexual feelings in their troops. The stress there is on
> "unrequited". That is supposed to make them more heroic fighters.

This seems a bit garbled. The unit in question would be the Sacred Band
of Thebes (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sacred_Band_of_Thebes) which
was destroyed by Philip at Chaeronea.

Philip was said to be anti-homosexual, but after the battle (quote from
Wikipedia): Plutarch records that Philip II, on encountering the corpses
"heaped one upon another", understanding who they were, wept and
exclaimed,

Perish any man who suspects that these men either did or suffered
anything unseemly.
— Plutarch, Pelopidas 18[19]

--
Stephen Harker ***@netspace.net.au
http://sjharker.customer.netspace.net.au/
Robert Carnegie
2018-03-24 03:47:49 UTC
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On Friday, 23 March 2018 21:08:07 UTC, Stephen Harker wrote:
> The Zygon <***@gmail.com> writes:
>
> > On Tuesday, March 20, 2018 at 1:50:34 AM UTC-4, David Johnston wrote:
> >> On 2018-03-19 10:09 PM, The Zygon wrote:
> >> > I see a lot of the _Dosadi Experiment_ in _Dune_.
> >> >
> > [...]
> >
> > He also seems fascinated by the all homosexual unit which Philip of
> > Macedonia had in his army. It is said that all members in the unit
> > had mates who were also in the unit. From this he develops the
> > homophobic idea that homosexuals are filled with self-hatred and
> > hatred for humanity, and as such make excellent berserker troops. He
> > even suggests that Generals through the ages have always encouraged
> > unrequited homsexual feelings in their troops. The stress there is on
> > "unrequited". That is supposed to make them more heroic fighters.
>
> This seems a bit garbled. The unit in question would be the Sacred Band
> of Thebes (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sacred_Band_of_Thebes) which
> was destroyed by Philip at Chaeronea.
>
> Philip was said to be anti-homosexual, but after the battle (quote from
> Wikipedia): Plutarch records that Philip II, on encountering the corpses
> "heaped one upon another", understanding who they were, wept and
> exclaimed,
>
> Perish any man who suspects that these men either did or suffered
> anything unseemly.
> — Plutarch, Pelopidas 18[19]

I'll just comment that since Wikipedia describes pairings of an
older and a younger man, and that you joined at around 20-21 and
left at 30, these possibly aren't 150 lifelong exclusive couples?
Like, when your old guy retires, you become the old guy and the
unit issues you a fresh 20-year-old? (No, I'm not fantasising.
I see myself more as a Henry Higgins to an Eliza Doolittle.
Which I figure is about equivalent except for killing people.
Not that there's anything wrong with that in the ancient world;
apparently it's what gets you into Plutarch.)
Juho Julkunen
2018-03-25 13:58:15 UTC
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In article <6e7477e6-c7d2-4ba0-a143-***@googlegroups.com>,
***@excite.com says...
>
> On Friday, 23 March 2018 21:08:07 UTC, Stephen Harker wrote:
> > The Zygon <***@gmail.com> writes:
> >
> > > On Tuesday, March 20, 2018 at 1:50:34 AM UTC-4, David Johnston wrote:
> > >> On 2018-03-19 10:09 PM, The Zygon wrote:
> > >> > I see a lot of the _Dosadi Experiment_ in _Dune_.
> > >> >
> > > [...]
> > >
> > > He also seems fascinated by the all homosexual unit which Philip of
> > > Macedonia had in his army. It is said that all members in the unit
> > > had mates who were also in the unit. From this he develops the
> > > homophobic idea that homosexuals are filled with self-hatred and
> > > hatred for humanity, and as such make excellent berserker troops. He
> > > even suggests that Generals through the ages have always encouraged
> > > unrequited homsexual feelings in their troops. The stress there is on
> > > "unrequited". That is supposed to make them more heroic fighters.
> >
> > This seems a bit garbled. The unit in question would be the Sacred Band
> > of Thebes (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sacred_Band_of_Thebes) which
> > was destroyed by Philip at Chaeronea.
> >
> > Philip was said to be anti-homosexual, but after the battle (quote from
> > Wikipedia): Plutarch records that Philip II, on encountering the corpses
> > "heaped one upon another", understanding who they were, wept and
> > exclaimed,
> >
> > Perish any man who suspects that these men either did or suffered
> > anything unseemly.
> > ??Plutarch, Pelopidas 18[19]
>
> I'll just comment that since Wikipedia describes pairings of an
> older and a younger man, and that you joined at around 20-21 and
> left at 30, these possibly aren't 150 lifelong exclusive couples?
> Like, when your old guy retires, you become the old guy and the
> unit issues you a fresh 20-year-old? (No, I'm not fantasising.
> I see myself more as a Henry Higgins to an Eliza Doolittle.
> Which I figure is about equivalent except for killing people.
> Not that there's anything wrong with that in the ancient world;
> apparently it's what gets you into Plutarch.)

According to Homer, "It is entirely seemly for a young man killed in
battle to lie mangled by the bronze spear. In his death all things
appear fair."

--
Juho Julkunen
Kevrob
2018-03-26 16:40:05 UTC
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On Sunday, March 25, 2018 at 9:58:15 AM UTC-4, Juho Julkunen wrote:
> In article <6e7477e6-c7d2-4ba0-a143-***@googlegroups.com>,
> ***@excite.com says...
> >
> > On Friday, 23 March 2018 21:08:07 UTC, Stephen Harker wrote:
> > > The Zygon <***@gmail.com> writes:
> > >
> > > > On Tuesday, March 20, 2018 at 1:50:34 AM UTC-4, David Johnston wrote:
> > > >> On 2018-03-19 10:09 PM, The Zygon wrote:
> > > >> > I see a lot of the _Dosadi Experiment_ in _Dune_.
> > > >> >
> > > > [...]
> > > >
> > > > He also seems fascinated by the all homosexual unit which Philip of
> > > > Macedonia had in his army. It is said that all members in the unit
> > > > had mates who were also in the unit. From this he develops the
> > > > homophobic idea that homosexuals are filled with self-hatred and
> > > > hatred for humanity, and as such make excellent berserker troops. He
> > > > even suggests that Generals through the ages have always encouraged
> > > > unrequited homsexual feelings in their troops. The stress there is on
> > > > "unrequited". That is supposed to make them more heroic fighters.
> > >
> > > This seems a bit garbled. The unit in question would be the Sacred Band
> > > of Thebes (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sacred_Band_of_Thebes) which
> > > was destroyed by Philip at Chaeronea.
> > >
> > > Philip was said to be anti-homosexual, but after the battle (quote from
> > > Wikipedia): Plutarch records that Philip II, on encountering the corpses
> > > "heaped one upon another", understanding who they were, wept and
> > > exclaimed,
> > >
> > > Perish any man who suspects that these men either did or suffered
> > > anything unseemly.
> > > ??Plutarch, Pelopidas 18[19]
> >
> > I'll just comment that since Wikipedia describes pairings of an
> > older and a younger man, and that you joined at around 20-21 and
> > left at 30, these possibly aren't 150 lifelong exclusive couples?
> > Like, when your old guy retires, you become the old guy and the
> > unit issues you a fresh 20-year-old? (No, I'm not fantasising.
> > I see myself more as a Henry Higgins to an Eliza Doolittle.
> > Which I figure is about equivalent except for killing people.
> > Not that there's anything wrong with that in the ancient world;
> > apparently it's what gets you into Plutarch.)
>
> According to Homer, "It is entirely seemly for a young man killed in
> battle to lie mangled by the bronze spear. In his death all things
> appear fair."
>

Wilfred Owen remembered that attitude, filtered through Horace:

https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems/46560/dulce-et-decorum-est

Kevin R
James Nicoll
2018-03-20 13:52:09 UTC
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In article <ee92161f-ff93-4105-9282-***@googlegroups.com>,
The Zygon <***@gmail.com> wrote:
>I see a lot of the _Dosadi Experiment_ in _Dune_.

Dune came first.
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My Dreamwidth at https://james-davis-nicoll.dreamwidth.org/
My patreon is at https://www.patreon.com/jamesdnicoll
The Zygon
2018-03-23 07:39:05 UTC
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On Tuesday, March 20, 2018 at 9:52:11 AM UTC-4, James Nicoll wrote:
> In article <ee92161f-ff93-4105-9282-***@googlegroups.com>,
> The Zygon <***@gmail.com> wrote:
> >I see a lot of the _Dosadi Experiment_ in _Dune_.
>
> Dune came first.
> --
> My reviews can be found at http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/
> My Dreamwidth at https://james-davis-nicoll.dreamwidth.org/
> My patreon is at https://www.patreon.com/jamesdnicoll

Thanks! He was just continuing something that worked for him.
b***@dontspam.silent.com
2018-03-20 19:58:19 UTC
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On Mon, 19 Mar 2018 21:09:11 -0700 (PDT), The Zygon
<***@gmail.com> wrote:

>I see a lot of the _Dosadi Experiment_ in _Dune_.

The precursor to Dosadi Experiment was called High Opp and was written
BEFORE Dune so Herbert would have had many of the ideas from Dosadi in
his head, at least in some form.
The Zygon
2018-03-23 07:40:12 UTC
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On Tuesday, March 20, 2018 at 3:58:20 PM UTC-4, ***@dontspam.silent.com wrote:
> On Mon, 19 Mar 2018 21:09:11 -0700 (PDT), The Zygon
> <***@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >I see a lot of the _Dosadi Experiment_ in _Dune_.
>
> The precursor to Dosadi Experiment was called High Opp and was written
> BEFORE Dune so Herbert would have had many of the ideas from Dosadi in
> his head, at least in some form.

Thanks.
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