Discussion:
Another SF prediction coming true - Lab grown meat could be on sale by end of 2018
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a425couple
2018-07-03 14:45:51 UTC
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from:
https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=1380402768758644&id=693504594115135

Lab grown meat could be on sale by end of 2018

This Facebook view (I can not cut & paste it)
has quite the variety of pro natural versis
pro lab grown.

Arthur Clarke in "Imperial Earth" predicted future
populations would reject eating natural meat.
Greg Goss
2018-07-05 07:17:16 UTC
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Post by a425couple
https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=1380402768758644&id=693504594115135
Lab grown meat could be on sale by end of 2018
This Facebook view (I can not cut & paste it)
has quite the variety of pro natural versis
pro lab grown.
Arthur Clarke in "Imperial Earth" predicted future
populations would reject eating natural meat.
Asimov (?) had a short story featuring a cooking contest where one of
the contestants used dirt-grown garlic. The judges were wildly
grossed out by the revelation.
--
We are geeks. Resistance is voltage over current.
David Goldfarb
2018-07-06 03:42:07 UTC
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Post by Greg Goss
Asimov (?) had a short story featuring a cooking contest where one of
the contestants used dirt-grown garlic. The judges were wildly
grossed out by the revelation.
Yes, it was Asimov. It was called "Good Taste", and appeared in
an early issue of _Isaac Asimov's Science Fiction Magazine_,
possibly the very first.
--
David Goldfarb | The one-O "lose": reverse of "win" or "find".
***@gmail.com | The two-O "loose": reverse of "tight" or "bind".
***@ocf.berkeley.edu |
Robert Carnegie
2018-07-06 07:28:14 UTC
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Post by Greg Goss
Post by a425couple
https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=1380402768758644&id=693504594115135
Lab grown meat could be on sale by end of 2018
This Facebook view (I can not cut & paste it)
has quite the variety of pro natural versis
pro lab grown.
Arthur Clarke in "Imperial Earth" predicted future
populations would reject eating natural meat.
Asimov (?) had a short story featuring a cooking contest where one of
the contestants used dirt-grown garlic. The judges were wildly
grossed out by the revelation.
--
We are geeks. Resistance is voltage over current.
Star Trek novel _Debtor's Planet_ has Wesley Crusher
having misgivings about authentic food ingredients,
and I think I recall it's about ice cream.
Hmm. Does that mean that every planet he visited (some of
which did worse things to him) serves replicated food?
Kevrob
2018-07-06 14:07:43 UTC
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Post by Robert Carnegie
Star Trek novel _Debtor's Planet_ has Wesley Crusher
having misgivings about authentic food ingredients,
and I think I recall it's about ice cream.
Hmm. Does that mean that every planet he visited (some of
which did worse things to him) serves replicated food?
The SFnal references are all well and good, but in RL
we must make synthbacon that actually tastes like the real
thing the Moral Equivalent Of War! Perhaps morning rashers
are worth clogged arteries, but I'd rather not have to choose.

Kevin R
Cryptoengineer
2018-07-07 03:42:16 UTC
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Post by Kevrob
Post by Robert Carnegie
Star Trek novel _Debtor's Planet_ has Wesley Crushe
having misgivings about authentic food ingredients, and I think I
recall it's about ice cream. Hmm. Does that mean that every planet he
visited (some of which did worse things to him) serves replicated
food?
The SFnal references are all well and good, but in RL
we must make synthbacon that actually tastes like the real
thing the Moral Equivalent Of War! Perhaps morning rashers
are worth clogged arteries, but I'd rather not have to choose.
Now there's a fun conundrum - does bacon grown in a vat, not a pig,
count as kosher?

pt
Ted Nolan <tednolan>
2018-07-07 03:51:02 UTC
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Post by Cryptoengineer
Post by Kevrob
Post by Robert Carnegie
Star Trek novel _Debtor's Planet_ has Wesley Crushe
having misgivings about authentic food ingredients, and I think I
recall it's about ice cream. Hmm. Does that mean that every planet he
visited (some of which did worse things to him) serves replicated
food?
The SFnal references are all well and good, but in RL
we must make synthbacon that actually tastes like the real
thing the Moral Equivalent Of War! Perhaps morning rashers
are worth clogged arteries, but I'd rather not have to choose.
Now there's a fun conundrum - does bacon grown in a vat, not a pig,
count as kosher?
pt
Well, it doesn't have hooves or chew its cud..

I think Harry Turtledove did a story of a Rabbi faced with a similar quandry
once.
--
------
columbiaclosings.com
What's not in Columbia anymore..
Cryptoengineer
2018-07-07 04:00:55 UTC
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Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Post by Cryptoengineer
Post by Kevrob
Post by Robert Carnegie
Star Trek novel _Debtor's Planet_ has Wesley Crushe
having misgivings about authentic food ingredients, and I think I
recall it's about ice cream. Hmm. Does that mean that every planet
he visited (some of which did worse things to him) serves
replicated food?
The SFnal references are all well and good, but in RL
we must make synthbacon that actually tastes like the real
thing the Moral Equivalent Of War! Perhaps morning rashers are
worth clogged arteries, but I'd rather not have to choose.
Now there's a fun conundrum - does bacon grown in a vat, not a pig,
count as kosher?
pt
Well, it doesn't have hooves or chew its cud..
I think Harry Turtledove did a story of a Rabbi faced with a similar
quandry once.
Non-Jewish fans who lived in New York, like I, develop a
better-than-the-average-goy knowledge of kashrut. An animal
which splits the hoof AND chews cud is ok. Pigs don't chew
cud.

IIRC, the Turtledove story involves a GMO pig which *does*
chew cud, and a young rabbi debating whether he can eat the
animal's meat.

pt
Robert Carnegie
2018-07-07 11:28:24 UTC
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Post by Cryptoengineer
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Post by Cryptoengineer
Post by Kevrob
Post by Robert Carnegie
Star Trek novel _Debtor's Planet_ has Wesley Crushe
having misgivings about authentic food ingredients, and I think I
recall it's about ice cream. Hmm. Does that mean that every planet
he visited (some of which did worse things to him) serves
replicated food?
The SFnal references are all well and good, but in RL
we must make synthbacon that actually tastes like the real
thing the Moral Equivalent Of War! Perhaps morning rashers are
worth clogged arteries, but I'd rather not have to choose.
Now there's a fun conundrum - does bacon grown in a vat, not a pig,
count as kosher?
pt
Well, it doesn't have hooves or chew its cud..
I think Harry Turtledove did a story of a Rabbi faced with a similar
quandry once.
Non-Jewish fans who lived in New York, like I, develop a
better-than-the-average-goy knowledge of kashrut. An animal
which splits the hoof AND chews cud is ok. Pigs don't chew
cud.
IIRC, the Turtledove story involves a GMO pig which *does*
chew cud, and a young rabbi debating whether he can eat the
animal's meat.
pt
According to Harry Harrison's "The Man From P.I.G.",
pigs are smart and can be trained to do lots of things?
Greg Goss
2018-07-07 15:30:56 UTC
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Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by Cryptoengineer
IIRC, the Turtledove story involves a GMO pig which *does*
chew cud, and a young rabbi debating whether he can eat the
animal's meat.
pt
According to Harry Harrison's "The Man From P.I.G.",
pigs are smart and can be trained to do lots of things?
But muscle tissue grown in a vat doesn't do those things.
--
We are geeks. Resistance is voltage over current.
Juho Julkunen
2018-07-07 14:21:30 UTC
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In article <***@mid.individual.net>, ***@loft.tnolan.com
says...
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Post by Cryptoengineer
Post by Kevrob
Post by Robert Carnegie
Star Trek novel _Debtor's Planet_ has Wesley Crushe
having misgivings about authentic food ingredients, and I think I
recall it's about ice cream. Hmm. Does that mean that every planet he
visited (some of which did worse things to him) serves replicated
food?
The SFnal references are all well and good, but in RL
we must make synthbacon that actually tastes like the real
thing the Moral Equivalent Of War! Perhaps morning rashers
are worth clogged arteries, but I'd rather not have to choose.
Now there's a fun conundrum - does bacon grown in a vat, not a pig,
count as kosher?
pt
Well, it doesn't have hooves or chew its cud..
I think Harry Turtledove did a story of a Rabbi faced with a similar quandry
once.
It was also a plot point in an episode of Elementary.
--
Juho Julkunen
Robert Carnegie
2018-07-07 11:22:58 UTC
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Post by Cryptoengineer
Post by Kevrob
Post by Robert Carnegie
Star Trek novel _Debtor's Planet_ has Wesley Crushe
having misgivings about authentic food ingredients, and I think I
recall it's about ice cream. Hmm. Does that mean that every planet he
visited (some of which did worse things to him) serves replicated
food?
The SFnal references are all well and good, but in RL
we must make synthbacon that actually tastes like the real
thing the Moral Equivalent Of War! Perhaps morning rashers
are worth clogged arteries, but I'd rather not have to choose.
Now there's a fun conundrum - does bacon grown in a vat, not a pig,
count as kosher?
That's not for me to decide, but presumably it comes
/from/ a pig. Human cells might taste the same but
not solve the problem... perhaps unless they're your
own cells?

I think I (strictly speaking, don't) remember some (flu?)
vaccine that a Roman Catholic authority said was haram
because once, at an early stage in its development,
an unacceptable scientific process was used: I suppose
either abortion, or in vitro embryos, or contraception.
This isn't necessarily from the Vatican since there
are several smaller branches of the church that think
Rome isn't Catholic enough.

One of the Star Trek novels proposes - non-canonically,
I think - that the Starship Enterprise was launched with
synthetic food printers, which malfunction and present
Spock, Vulcan and vegetarian, with an apparent meat dish,
while his dining companions also get mixed-up meals.
IIRC Spock's tastes as the vegetable dish was supposed to
and he eats it, and I suppose the question may have been
open of whether animal or vegetable cells or Transported
atoms were used to make it, and whether that matters.
It's also fair to consider that he simply didn't like it.
Cryptoengineer
2018-07-07 15:36:02 UTC
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Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by Cryptoengineer
Post by Kevrob
Post by Robert Carnegie
Star Trek novel _Debtor's Planet_ has Wesley Crushe
having misgivings about authentic food ingredients, and I think I
recall it's about ice cream. Hmm. Does that mean that every
planet he visited (some of which did worse things to him) serves
replicated food?
The SFnal references are all well and good, but in RL
we must make synthbacon that actually tastes like the real
thing the Moral Equivalent Of War! Perhaps morning rashers are
worth clogged arteries, but I'd rather not have to choose.
Now there's a fun conundrum - does bacon grown in a vat, not a pig,
count as kosher?
That's not for me to decide, but presumably it comes
/from/ a pig. Human cells might taste the same but
not solve the problem... perhaps unless they're your
own cells?
At a guess:
Orthodox: Forget it. No way no how.
Conservative: Tons and tons of debate, never really settled.
Reform: Can you do scallops as well? We like those bacon/scallop
snacks.
Post by Robert Carnegie
I think I (strictly speaking, don't) remember some (flu?)
vaccine that a Roman Catholic authority said was haram
because once, at an early stage in its development,
an unacceptable scientific process was used: I suppose
either abortion, or in vitro embryos, or contraception.
This isn't necessarily from the Vatican since there
are several smaller branches of the church that think
Rome isn't Catholic enough.
It was rubella vaccine, and the Vatican:

http://www.immunize.org/talking-about-vaccines/vaticandocument.htm

TL,DNR: Its awful that these exist, and we should develop alternate
vacciines which don't involve fetal tissue, but until there are
alternative, leaving your kids unvaccinated is worse. So hold you
nose and use them.

pt
J. Clarke
2018-07-07 15:57:34 UTC
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On Sat, 7 Jul 2018 04:22:58 -0700 (PDT), Robert Carnegie
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by Cryptoengineer
Post by Kevrob
Post by Robert Carnegie
Star Trek novel _Debtor's Planet_ has Wesley Crushe
having misgivings about authentic food ingredients, and I think I
recall it's about ice cream. Hmm. Does that mean that every planet he
visited (some of which did worse things to him) serves replicated
food?
The SFnal references are all well and good, but in RL
we must make synthbacon that actually tastes like the real
thing the Moral Equivalent Of War! Perhaps morning rashers
are worth clogged arteries, but I'd rather not have to choose.
Now there's a fun conundrum - does bacon grown in a vat, not a pig,
count as kosher?
That's not for me to decide, but presumably it comes
/from/ a pig. Human cells might taste the same but
not solve the problem... perhaps unless they're your
own cells?
I think I (strictly speaking, don't) remember some (flu?)
vaccine that a Roman Catholic authority said was haram
Why would anywone care whether a Roman Catholic authority thinks that
something violates Islamic law? Did you mean to say something else
here?
Post by Robert Carnegie
because once, at an early stage in its development,
an unacceptable scientific process was used: I suppose
either abortion, or in vitro embryos, or contraception.
This isn't necessarily from the Vatican since there
are several smaller branches of the church that think
Rome isn't Catholic enough.
There are no "smaller branches of the Church". There may be
organizations that claim to be such--when the become sufficiently
annoying the whole lot are likely to get themselves excommunicated.

I believe that the particular matter you are rather confusedly
addressing is the one discussed here
<https://cogforlife.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/vaticanresponse.pdf>

Note that cogforlife.org is the web site of an organization headed by
Mrs. Vinnedge, to whom the Vatican response is addressed.

The Church viewpoint seems quite reasonable given their position with
regard to abortion, but Mrs. Vinnedge not so much.
Post by Robert Carnegie
One of the Star Trek novels proposes - non-canonically,
I think - that the Starship Enterprise was launched with
synthetic food printers, which malfunction and present
Spock, Vulcan and vegetarian, with an apparent meat dish,
while his dining companions also get mixed-up meals.
IIRC Spock's tastes as the vegetable dish was supposed to
and he eats it, and I suppose the question may have been
open of whether animal or vegetable cells or Transported
atoms were used to make it, and whether that matters.
It's also fair to consider that he simply didn't like it.
Robert Carnegie
2018-07-07 21:50:15 UTC
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"Haram" is just Arabic for "no". Same concept spoken
from under a different shaped hat.
J. Clarke
2018-07-08 02:59:52 UTC
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On Sat, 7 Jul 2018 14:50:15 -0700 (PDT), Robert Carnegie
Post by Robert Carnegie
"Haram" is just Arabic for "no". Same concept spoken
from under a different shaped hat.
"la" is Arabic for "no". "Haram" is Arabic for "forbidden under
Islamic law".
Titus G
2018-07-08 04:22:43 UTC
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Post by J. Clarke
On Sat, 7 Jul 2018 14:50:15 -0700 (PDT), Robert Carnegie
Post by Robert Carnegie
"Haram" is just Arabic for "no". Same concept spoken
from under a different shaped hat.
"la" is Arabic for "no". "Haram" is Arabic for "forbidden under
Islamic law".
In NZ where Jews and Arabs are scarce, not kosher simply means not good.
I understood the original use of the new-to-me word haram in this thread
to be the Islamic equivalent of kosher, and as used here, not in a
strict sense.
Greg Goss
2018-07-08 05:27:12 UTC
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Post by Titus G
Post by J. Clarke
On Sat, 7 Jul 2018 14:50:15 -0700 (PDT), Robert Carnegie
Post by Robert Carnegie
"Haram" is just Arabic for "no". Same concept spoken
from under a different shaped hat.
"la" is Arabic for "no". "Haram" is Arabic for "forbidden under
Islamic law".
In NZ where Jews and Arabs are scarce, not kosher simply means not good.
I understood the original use of the new-to-me word haram in this thread
to be the Islamic equivalent of kosher, and as used here, not in a
strict sense.
They're opposite, not equivalent.
--
We are geeks. Resistance is voltage over current.
Robert Carnegie
2018-07-08 07:44:48 UTC
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Post by Greg Goss
Post by Titus G
Post by J. Clarke
On Sat, 7 Jul 2018 14:50:15 -0700 (PDT), Robert Carnegie
Post by Robert Carnegie
"Haram" is just Arabic for "no". Same concept spoken
from under a different shaped hat.
"la" is Arabic for "no". "Haram" is Arabic for "forbidden under
Islamic law".
In NZ where Jews and Arabs are scarce, not kosher simply means not good.
I understood the original use of the new-to-me word haram in this thread
to be the Islamic equivalent of kosher, and as used here, not in a
strict sense.
They're opposite, not equivalent.
Wikipedia has fairly informative articles on "haram"
(actually "forbidden") and "halal", permissible -
the latter ranging from "compulsory" to "tolerated".
Different spellings of "haram" have meanings of
"sacred religious site" and "women's quarters".
Judaism spells it "herem" in all cases.
So, clearly, Islam didn't invent this.
J. Clarke
2018-07-08 15:00:15 UTC
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On Sun, 8 Jul 2018 00:44:48 -0700 (PDT), Robert Carnegie
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by Greg Goss
Post by Titus G
Post by J. Clarke
On Sat, 7 Jul 2018 14:50:15 -0700 (PDT), Robert Carnegie
Post by Robert Carnegie
"Haram" is just Arabic for "no". Same concept spoken
from under a different shaped hat.
"la" is Arabic for "no". "Haram" is Arabic for "forbidden under
Islamic law".
In NZ where Jews and Arabs are scarce, not kosher simply means not good.
I understood the original use of the new-to-me word haram in this thread
to be the Islamic equivalent of kosher, and as used here, not in a
strict sense.
They're opposite, not equivalent.
Wikipedia has fairly informative articles on "haram"
(actually "forbidden") and "halal", permissible -
the latter ranging from "compulsory" to "tolerated".
Different spellings of "haram" have meanings of
"sacred religious site" and "women's quarters".
No, that's "harem". In Biblical Hebrew it seems to be described
rather than named--presumably modern Hebrew has picked up the Arabic
word.

If it's a different spelling it's probably a different word.
Post by Robert Carnegie
Judaism spells it "herem" in all cases.
Actually it spells het tzere resh segol mem, which when spoken sounds
kind of like "herem" in English but not quite--tzere and segol are
both similar the english short e but they aren't quite the same.

Hebrew is not English, it is not even in the same language family, so
don't try to make English out of it. The same is true for Arabic,
which is in the same family as Hebrew--you might successfully make
Arabic out of it but not English.
Post by Robert Carnegie
So, clearly, Islam didn't invent this.
Islam is an offshoot of Judaism you know, so of course Islam didn't
invent this.

David Goldfarb
2018-07-08 07:40:01 UTC
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Post by Titus G
I understood the original use of the new-to-me word haram in this thread
to be the Islamic equivalent of kosher, and as used here, not in a
strict sense.
The Islamic equivalent of kosher is "halal". "Haram" is the opposite, tref.
--
David Goldfarb |"It's okay to disagree with me. However, once I
***@gmail.com |explain where you're wrong you're supposed to
***@ocf.berkeley.edu |become enlightened and change your mind.
|Congratulating me on how smart I am is optional."
| -- Karl Johanson
Greg Goss
2018-07-07 15:29:54 UTC
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Post by Cryptoengineer
Post by Kevrob
Post by Robert Carnegie
Star Trek novel _Debtor's Planet_ has Wesley Crushe
having misgivings about authentic food ingredients, and I think I
recall it's about ice cream. Hmm. Does that mean that every planet he
visited (some of which did worse things to him) serves replicated
food?
The SFnal references are all well and good, but in RL
we must make synthbacon that actually tastes like the real
thing the Moral Equivalent Of War! Perhaps morning rashers
are worth clogged arteries, but I'd rather not have to choose.
Now there's a fun conundrum - does bacon grown in a vat, not a pig,
count as kosher?
No hooves, so no cloven hooves. I don't remember the kosher rules for
"plants", which this would likely fall under.

Or the ancestry. I think that there are a lot of "don't risk a single
drop" rules, and an entire genome might run into those.
--
We are geeks. Resistance is voltage over current.
-dsr-
2018-07-08 11:25:20 UTC
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Post by Greg Goss
Post by Cryptoengineer
Post by Kevrob
Post by Robert Carnegie
Star Trek novel _Debtor's Planet_ has Wesley Crushe
having misgivings about authentic food ingredients, and I think I
recall it's about ice cream. Hmm. Does that mean that every planet he
visited (some of which did worse things to him) serves replicated
food?
The SFnal references are all well and good, but in RL
we must make synthbacon that actually tastes like the real
thing the Moral Equivalent Of War! Perhaps morning rashers
are worth clogged arteries, but I'd rather not have to choose.
Now there's a fun conundrum - does bacon grown in a vat, not a pig,
count as kosher?
No hooves, so no cloven hooves. I don't remember the kosher rules for
"plants", which this would likely fall under.
Or the ancestry. I think that there are a lot of "don't risk a single
drop" rules, and an entire genome might run into those.
The kashrut laws about vegetables are largely concerned with proper washing
to avoid consuming insects, and then the special observance of Pesach.

The question of the kosher status of lab-grown meat has already been
taken up by many Jewish legalists, and as usual the issues are clear
but the answers are not.

People might find this short article on the kosher status of turkeys to
be interesting:
https://www.thejc.com/judaism/features/why-turkey-gave-some-rabbis-a-headache-1.50926


-dsr-
Titus G
2018-07-07 04:52:00 UTC
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Post by Kevrob
Post by Robert Carnegie
Star Trek novel _Debtor's Planet_ has Wesley Crusher
having misgivings about authentic food ingredients,
and I think I recall it's about ice cream.
Hmm. Does that mean that every planet he visited (some of
which did worse things to him) serves replicated food?
The SFnal references are all well and good, but in RL
we must make synthbacon that actually tastes like the real
thing the Moral Equivalent Of War! Perhaps morning rashers
are worth clogged arteries, but I'd rather not have to choose.
The correlation between smoking cigarettes and lung cancer is 80
something %, between eating bacon and colon cancer 29%. Despite a
weakening sense of smell and aging taste buds, I can still taste a
significant difference between the tasty nitrate treated rasher and the
not so tasty supposedly healthier naturally cured rasher.
The war is lost already unless it can be linked to some new religion or
a shared production facility with some other extremely profitable
process creating meat from a Vat.
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