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Twenty Core Epic Fantasies Every True SF Fan Should Have On Their Shelves
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James Nicoll
2017-04-06 13:18:42 UTC
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Twenty Core Epic Fantasies Every True SF Fan Should Have On Their Shelves

http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/post/twenty-core-epic-fantasies-every-true-sf-fan-should-have-on-their-shelves
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Steve Coltrin
2017-04-06 13:54:34 UTC
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begin fnord
Post by James Nicoll
http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/post/twenty-core-epic-fantasies-every-true-sf-fan-should-have-on-their-shelves
One old, old favorite of mine; some that I remember that I've read;
two that I have a copy of I've been meaning to read for a few years
now; one I put high - but not at the top - of that year's Hugos; one I
wish the author would finally finish the series of; one I refuse to
read.
--
Steve Coltrin ***@omcl.org Google Groups killfiled here
"A group known as the League of Human Dignity helped arrange for Deuel
to be driven to a local livestock scale, where he could be weighed."
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Scott Lurndal
2017-04-06 14:47:27 UTC
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Post by James Nicoll
Twenty Core Epic Fantasies Every True SF Fan Should Have On Their Shelves
http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/post/twenty-core-epic-fantasies-every-true-sf-fan-should-have-on-their-shelves
Firstly, I'd have included Michelle West's _Sun Sword_ series on this list.

Secondly, while I enjoy Moon's SciFi, the Pak stories never caught on for me.
James Nicoll
2017-04-07 13:34:07 UTC
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Post by Scott Lurndal
Post by James Nicoll
Twenty Core Epic Fantasies Every True SF Fan Should Have On Their Shelves
http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/post/twenty-core-epic-fantasies-every-true-sf-fan-should-have-on-their-shelves
Firstly, I'd have included Michelle West's _Sun Sword_ series on this list.
I have not read it, he said while making an unrelated note.
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Scott Lurndal
2017-04-07 13:52:29 UTC
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Post by James Nicoll
Post by Scott Lurndal
Post by James Nicoll
Twenty Core Epic Fantasies Every True SF Fan Should Have On Their Shelves
http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/post/twenty-core-epic-fantasies-every-true-sf-fan-should-have-on-their-shelves
Firstly, I'd have included Michelle West's _Sun Sword_ series on this list.
I have not read it, he said while making an unrelated note.
That's a bit of a suprise - she's a Canadian author, and her
prose is quite above average for the genre. I like the related
_House War_ series even more, and am eagerly awaiting the final
volume in the arc, due to the publisher this year sometime.
James Nicoll
2017-04-07 19:23:30 UTC
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Post by Scott Lurndal
Post by James Nicoll
Post by Scott Lurndal
Post by James Nicoll
Twenty Core Epic Fantasies Every True SF Fan Should Have On Their Shelves
http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/post/twenty-core-epic-fantasies-every-true-sf-fan-should-have-on-their-shelves
Firstly, I'd have included Michelle West's _Sun Sword_ series on this list.
I have not read it, he said while making an unrelated note.
That's a bit of a suprise - she's a Canadian author, and her
prose is quite above average for the genre. I like the related
_House War_ series even more, and am eagerly awaiting the final
volume in the arc, due to the publisher this year sometime.
The closest I've come to reading everything from the Big Five was one
year where I got close to 20% of their output. I miss almost everything.
--
My reviews can be found at http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/
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David DeLaney
2017-04-09 06:36:42 UTC
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Post by James Nicoll
Post by Scott Lurndal
Firstly, I'd have included Michelle West's _Sun Sword_ series on this list.
I have not read it, he said while making an unrelated note.
Oh my.

I think you'll like it.

How about the Hunter duology, set in the same world? (Also contains the Jewel
chronicles / the House Wars books.)

Dave, her Sundered tetralogy, her Cast In series, and her YA books are each
their own setting. some of those are under 'Michelle Sagara'
--
\/David DeLaney posting thru EarthLink - "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
gatekeeper.vic.com/~dbd - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.
Quadibloc
2017-04-06 15:22:46 UTC
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Why a "true SF fan" would necessarily have _any_ fantasy books on his or
her shelf, I am at a loss to understand.

Of course, some people say that SF stands for something other than science fiction.

John Savard
Anthony Nance
2017-04-07 11:16:01 UTC
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Post by Quadibloc
Why a "true SF fan" would necessarily have _any_ fantasy books on his or
her shelf, I am at a loss to understand.
Of course, some people say that SF stands for something other than science fiction.
The charter/FAQ for this very group says SF = Speculative Fiction.
See http://www.steelypips.org/sfwrittenfaq/ or
http://leepers.us/evelyn/faqs/sf-written.htm

Here's the second sentence of the introduction (Section 0):
" "SF" as used here means "speculative fiction" and includes
science fiction, fantasy, horror (a.k.a. dark fantasy), etc. "

Tony
Robert Woodward
2017-04-06 16:14:33 UTC
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Post by James Nicoll
Twenty Core Epic Fantasies Every True SF Fan Should Have On Their Shelves
http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/post/twenty-core-epic-fantasies-every-true-sf-fan-
should-have-on-their-shelves
I have read 6 and have 3 others in my Strategic Book Reserve.

BTW, do you have 19 names to go with Jessica Amanda Salmonson?
--
"We have advanced to new and surprising levels of bafflement."
Imperial Auditor Miles Vorkosigan describes progress in _Komarr_.
‹-----------------------------------------------------
Robert Woodward ***@drizzle.com
James Nicoll
2017-04-07 13:42:42 UTC
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Post by Robert Woodward
Post by James Nicoll
Twenty Core Epic Fantasies Every True SF Fan Should Have On Their Shelves
http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/post/twenty-core-epic-fantasies-every-true-sf-fan-
should-have-on-their-shelves
I have read 6 and have 3 others in my Strategic Book Reserve.
BTW, do you have 19 names to go with Jessica Amanda Salmonson?
I am torn between "MilFantasy*", "Fantasies set in regions where people
actually live in significant numbers" and "books by authors with whom I
have had acrimonious disagreements", which would give me somewhere to
plug Liavek**.

* Yes, I am struggling not to call that one twenty core MilFs, so it will
parallel twenty core MilSF works. Not having parallel structure will bug
me but I am worried people will think I mean the Moro Independence
Liberation Front.

** Twenty works that are both core and incredibly problematic will also
be putting in an appearance.
--
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My Livejournal at http://www.livejournal.com/users/james_nicoll
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h***@gmail.com
2017-04-08 04:07:14 UTC
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Post by James Nicoll
I am torn between "MilFantasy*", "Fantasies set in regions where people
actually live in significant numbers" and "books by authors with whom I
have had acrimonious disagreements", which would give me somewhere to
plug Liavek**.
* Yes, I am struggling not to call that one twenty core MilFs, so it will
parallel twenty core MilSF works. Not having parallel structure will bug
me but I am worried people will think I mean the Moro Independence
Liberation Front.
Listing 20 milfs may attract the wrong attention...
Garrett Wollman
2017-04-06 17:19:52 UTC
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Post by James Nicoll
Twenty Core Epic Fantasies Every True SF Fan Should Have On Their Shelves
http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/post/twenty-core-epic-fantasies-every-true-sf-fan-should-have-on-their-shelves
Curse of Chalion , Lois McMaster Bujold
Own this (just bought it, in fact), haven't read it yet. I still have
about half of my previous LMB buying binge to complete (the remaining
Vorkosigan books from /Mirror Dance/ to present).
Post by James Nicoll
Kushiel's Dart, Jacqueline Carey
Read this, have most or all of the books in this series, should
probably read again.
Post by James Nicoll
The Door into Fire , Diane Duane
This book changed my life.
Post by James Nicoll
The Interior Life , Dorothy Heydt
Downloaded this when Dorothy first made it available, haven't gotten
around to reading it yet.
Post by James Nicoll
Dark Lord of Derkholm , Diana Wynne Jones
Own it, don't think I got more than a few chapters in.
Post by James Nicoll
The Hero and the Crown , Robin McKinley
Read this when it was new, in the YA section of the library, loved
it. Having read it before /The Blue Sword/, which was published
earlier, makes some things in that book a bit clear. Sad that
McKinley has published little else in this universe.
Post by James Nicoll
The Well-Favored Man , Elizabeth Willey
Willey was a regular on this newsgroup, and I bought this book when it
came out and found it agreeable enough that I also bought the two
sequels. Dunno what happened, but apparently these books did not do
well enough to keep her in the novel business. I gather she is still
writing.

Can't speak for any of the others. I think I may own a copy of /Ash/
(which means I have two books with that title), but none of the
others.

-GAWollman
--
Garrett A. Wollman | "Act to avoid constraining the future; if you can,
***@bimajority.org| act to remove constraint from the future. This is
Opinions not shared by| a thing you can do, are able to do, to do together."
my employers. | - Graydon Saunders, _A Succession of Bad Days_ (2015)
Dorothy J Heydt
2017-04-06 19:46:58 UTC
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Post by James Nicoll
Dark Lord of Derkholm , Diana Wynne Jones
Thing is, it's a parody of not-very-good epic fantasy. It's not
supposed to be good, it's supposed to be funny. It's a followup
to her _Tough Guide to Fantasyland,_ which is sort of like the Evil
Overlord's Guide, or the long list of how-not-to-write-althist
that James posted once.

But if you don't like parody, then you don't.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Robert Woodward
2017-04-07 04:46:23 UTC
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Post by Garrett Wollman
Post by James Nicoll
Twenty Core Epic Fantasies Every True SF Fan Should Have On Their Shelves
http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/post/twenty-core-epic-fantasies-every-true-sf-fan
-should-have-on-their-shelves
<SNIP>
Post by Garrett Wollman
Post by James Nicoll
The Hero and the Crown , Robin McKinley
Read this when it was new, in the YA section of the library, loved
it. Having read it before /The Blue Sword/, which was published
earlier, makes some things in that book a bit clear. Sad that
McKinley has published little else in this universe.
While not a Damar story per se, I believe that _Deerskin_ mentions Aerin.
--
"We have advanced to new and surprising levels of bafflement."
Imperial Auditor Miles Vorkosigan describes progress in _Komarr_.
‹-----------------------------------------------------
Robert Woodward ***@drizzle.com
Robert Carnegie
2017-04-06 17:59:54 UTC
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Post by James Nicoll
Twenty Core Epic Fantasies Every True SF Fan Should Have On Their Shelves
http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/post/twenty-core-epic-fantasies-every-true-sf-fan-should-have-on-their-shelves
Just the Diane Duane here this time, which I seem
to remember as hardcore, but it isn't really.
David DeLaney
2017-04-07 01:57:12 UTC
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Twenty Core Epic Fantasies Every True SF Fan Should Have On Their Shelves
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-fan-should-have-on-their-shelves
Post by Robert Carnegie
Just the Diane Duane here this time, which I seem
to remember as hardcore, but it isn't really.
For the time it was published? Having a gay male couple, one of whom was the
protagonist, even if the sex scene was essentially a row of asterisks, and
even if it was set in a land where nobody _cared_ as long as you did your Duty
and had a kid? And _not_ having one or both of them die, go mad, get condemned
to a life of endless regret, or be a villain, by the end of the book? That was
sorta hardcore, yeah.

Also having two of the _gods_ be male lovers, and another one be a female
lover to every woman (and man) at least once in their life, probably
contributed.

Dave, also some implicit pyrosexuality, I think?
--
\/David DeLaney posting thru EarthLink - "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
gatekeeper.vic.com/~dbd - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.
Lynn McGuire
2017-04-06 20:56:33 UTC
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Post by James Nicoll
Twenty Core Epic Fantasies Every True SF Fan Should Have On Their Shelves
http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/post/twenty-core-epic-fantasies-every-true-sf-fan-should-have-on-their-shelves
Wow, I have not purchased nor read a single one of those ! Now if the category was urban fantasy ...

I am surprised that you did not include Jo Walton's _Among Others_ which I have purchased and read.
https://www.amazon.com/Among-Others-Hugo-Award-Winner/dp/0765331721/

Lynn
Robert Carnegie
2017-04-06 21:23:06 UTC
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Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by James Nicoll
Twenty Core Epic Fantasies Every True SF Fan Should Have On Their Shelves
http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/post/twenty-core-epic-fantasies-every-true-sf-fan-should-have-on-their-shelves
Wow, I have not purchased nor read a single one of those ! Now if the category was urban fantasy ...
I am surprised that you did not include Jo Walton's _Among Others_ which I have purchased and read.
https://www.amazon.com/Among-Others-Hugo-Award-Winner/dp/0765331721/
I think James means that these works have merit
and significance to the field, but not necessarily
more or even as much of those qualities as other
books not mentioned.

I think "all written by women" comes under
"significance" and is not merit per se, but
I'm not quite sure about that. Sometimes,
perhaps, there's merit in getting your work
published when there's a deficit of
encouragement. And sometimes posterity is
on the side of the deficit.
Moriarty
2017-04-06 22:07:28 UTC
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Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by James Nicoll
Twenty Core Epic Fantasies Every True SF Fan Should Have On Their Shelves
http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/post/twenty-core-epic-fantasies-every-true-sf-fan-should-have-on-their-shelves
Wow, I have not purchased nor read a single one of those ! Now if the category was urban fantasy ...
I am surprised that you did not include Jo Walton's _Among Others_ which I have purchased and read.
https://www.amazon.com/Among-Others-Hugo-Award-Winner/dp/0765331721/
I think James means that these works have merit
and significance to the field, but not necessarily
more or even as much of those qualities as other
books not mentioned.
I think "all written by women"
This will come as news to Garth Nix.

-Moriarty
Peter Trei
2017-04-06 23:09:46 UTC
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Post by Moriarty
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by James Nicoll
Twenty Core Epic Fantasies Every True SF Fan Should Have On Their Shelves
http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/post/twenty-core-epic-fantasies-every-true-sf-fan-should-have-on-their-shelves
Wow, I have not purchased nor read a single one of those ! Now if the category was urban fantasy ...
I am surprised that you did not include Jo Walton's _Among Others_ which I have purchased and read.
https://www.amazon.com/Among-Others-Hugo-Award-Winner/dp/0765331721/
I think James means that these works have merit
and significance to the field, but not necessarily
more or even as much of those qualities as other
books not mentioned.
I think "all written by women"
This will come as news to Garth Nix.
...and Ashok Banker

Despite James' protestations, I continue to see many of his lists as
having 'invert the usual sex ratio' as a primary concern. Nothing
wrong with that, but I'd wish he'd be transparent about his goals.

pt
James Nicoll
2017-04-07 13:44:28 UTC
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Post by James Nicoll
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by James Nicoll
Twenty Core Epic Fantasies Every True SF Fan Should Have On Their Shelves
http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/post/twenty-core-epic-fantasies-every-true-sf-fan-should-have-on-their-shelves
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by Lynn McGuire
Wow, I have not purchased nor read a single one of those ! Now if
the category was urban fantasy ...
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by Lynn McGuire
I am surprised that you did not include Jo Walton's _Among Others_
which I have purchased and read.
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by Lynn McGuire
https://www.amazon.com/Among-Others-Hugo-Award-Winner/dp/0765331721/
I think James means that these works have merit
and significance to the field, but not necessarily
more or even as much of those qualities as other
books not mentioned.
I think "all written by women"
This will come as news to Garth Nix.
-Moriarty
And Ashok Banker.
--
My reviews can be found at http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/
My Livejournal at http://www.livejournal.com/users/james_nicoll
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David Goldfarb
2017-04-07 04:02:56 UTC
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Post by Lynn McGuire
I am surprised that you did not include Jo Walton's _Among Others_ which
I have purchased and read.
https://www.amazon.com/Among-Others-Hugo-Award-Winner/dp/0765331721/
That's fantasy, but it's hard to view it as *epic* fantasy, I think.
One or both of the Sulien books (_The King's Peace_, _The King's Name_)
might have made the list, but either James hasn't read them or didn't
think they made the cut for the twenty core.
--
David Goldfarb |"'The truth will set you free.'
***@gmail.com | If you love the truth, you'll inevitably
***@ocf.berkeley.edu | come back!" -- Hitherby Dragons
Jack Bohn
2017-04-08 15:37:50 UTC
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A bit of the definition problem, but what would be the difference between epic fantasy and a modern fairytale like "The Deliverers of Their Country" from E. Nesbit's _The Book of Dragons_? Is it just length? What Spider Robinson referred to as committing a trilogy?

At the risk of bringing up the old joke about Homer being a man when he wrote The Iliad but a woman when she wrote The Odyssey, are classic epics exempted, or just not epic enough?
--
-Jack
Dorothy J Heydt
2017-04-08 15:44:07 UTC
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Post by Jack Bohn
A bit of the definition problem, but what would be the difference
between epic fantasy and a modern fairytale like "The Deliverers of
Their Country" from E. Nesbit's _The Book of Dragons_? Is it just
length? What Spider Robinson referred to as committing a trilogy?
At the risk of bringing up the old joke about Homer being a man when he
wrote The Iliad but a woman when she wrote The Odyssey, are classic
epics exempted, or just not epic enough?
If we're allowed to branch out that far, don't forget the Aeneid
and Dante's _Commedia._

And I've tried to avoid asking why _The Lord of the Rings_ isn't
on James's list, because everybody to his own taste, said the old
lady as she kissed her cow.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
James Nicoll
2017-04-08 16:20:10 UTC
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Post by Dorothy J Heydt
And I've tried to avoid asking why _The Lord of the Rings_ isn't
on James's list, because everybody to his own taste, said the old
lady as she kissed her cow.
I know lots of people love LotR but for me it was something I struggled
through because it's important to the field.
--
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My Livejournal at http://www.livejournal.com/users/james_nicoll
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Dorothy J Heydt
2017-04-08 17:07:34 UTC
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Post by James Nicoll
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
And I've tried to avoid asking why _The Lord of the Rings_ isn't
on James's list, because everybody to his own taste, said the old
lady as she kissed her cow.
I know lots of people love LotR but for me it was something I struggled
through because it's important to the field.
Fair enough.

Or as Tolkien said of it:

"The Lord of the Rings
is one of those things.
If you like it, you do;
If you don't you boo."
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Default User
2017-04-08 17:31:00 UTC
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Post by James Nicoll
I know lots of people love LotR but for me it was something I struggled
through because it's important to the field.
Here's a example of something that I didn't read. It was at the time popular with my peer group and I picked up enough through osmosis to be able to discuss it. That prevented the problem of, "You haven't read it! You have to! Let me get my copy for you!"

I was happily reading "real science fiction" (in my opinion). I'm not sure what LOTR was so popular at the time, the late 70s.


Brian
Quadibloc
2017-04-08 18:35:45 UTC
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Post by James Nicoll
I know lots of people love LotR but for me it was something I struggled
through because it's important to the field.
Interesting. I'm one of those who views it as one of the greatest literary works
ever. But then, if my tastes were only slightly different, I might have felt the
same way.

John Savard
Scott Lurndal
2017-04-10 14:12:01 UTC
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Post by James Nicoll
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
And I've tried to avoid asking why _The Lord of the Rings_ isn't
on James's list, because everybody to his own taste, said the old
lady as she kissed her cow.
I know lots of people love LotR but for me it was something I struggled
through because it's important to the field.
Hear! Hear!

I've never been able to finish it, and I _like_ WoT.
Magewolf
2017-04-08 16:25:11 UTC
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Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Jack Bohn
A bit of the definition problem, but what would be the difference
between epic fantasy and a modern fairytale like "The Deliverers of
Their Country" from E. Nesbit's _The Book of Dragons_? Is it just
length? What Spider Robinson referred to as committing a trilogy?
At the risk of bringing up the old joke about Homer being a man when he
wrote The Iliad but a woman when she wrote The Odyssey, are classic
epics exempted, or just not epic enough?
If we're allowed to branch out that far, don't forget the Aeneid
and Dante's _Commedia._
And I've tried to avoid asking why _The Lord of the Rings_ isn't
on James's list, because everybody to his own taste, said the old
lady as she kissed her cow.
Because the list has very little to do with being "Core" or "Epic
Fantasy" and quite a lot to do with James being passive-aggressive.
Ahasuerus
2017-04-08 19:55:20 UTC
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Post by Magewolf
[snip-snip]
And I've tried to avoid asking why _The Lord of the Rings_ isn't
on James's list, because everybody to his own taste, said the old
lady as she kissed her cow.
Because the list has very little to do with being "Core" or "Epic
Fantasy" and quite a lot to do with James being passive-aggressive.
All of the recently posted "core" lists include the following disclaimer:

"No implication is intended that these are the only twenty books you
should consider".

Given this disclaimer and the absence of some of the most obvious
candidates like _LoTR_, I originally figured that they were lists of
"books underappreciated within the field".

However, there are some exceptions, most obviously _The Fifth Season_
and _The Curse of Chalion_, which had their share of awards and
nominations:
http://www.isfdb.org/cgi-bin/title.cgi?1878015 and
http://www.isfdb.org/cgi-bin/title.cgi?21365
Jaimie Vandenbergh
2017-04-09 07:03:59 UTC
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Post by Ahasuerus
Post by Magewolf
[snip-snip]
And I've tried to avoid asking why _The Lord of the Rings_ isn't
on James's list, because everybody to his own taste, said the old
lady as she kissed her cow.
Because the list has very little to do with being "Core" or "Epic
Fantasy" and quite a lot to do with James being passive-aggressive.
"No implication is intended that these are the only twenty books you
should consider".
Given this disclaimer and the absence of some of the most obvious
candidates like _LoTR_, I originally figured that they were lists of
"books underappreciated within the field".
I have a sad feeling that "Magewolf" is objecting more to James' active
promotion of writers who happen to be women.

Cheers - Jaimie
--
C makes it easy to shoot yourself in the foot; C++ makes it
harder, but when you do, it blows away your whole leg.
-- Bjarne Stroustrup
Quadibloc
2017-04-09 08:46:22 UTC
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Post by Jaimie Vandenbergh
I have a sad feeling that "Magewolf" is objecting more to James' active
promotion of writers who happen to be women.
Some people are objecting - and I believe _this_ objection is entirely
legitimate - to his claim that the books were chosen to be placed on the list
solely by reason of their quality, and for no other considerations.

I don't share that objection, or at least I don't share it fully, because I
don't think he is fooling - or, more precisely, deceiving - anyone; for someone
to joke by speaking with tongue in cheek, and then to remain "in character"
with the joke doesn't strike me as objectionable conduct.

John Savard
Robert Carnegie
2017-04-09 13:24:50 UTC
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Post by Jaimie Vandenbergh
Post by Ahasuerus
Post by Magewolf
[snip-snip]
And I've tried to avoid asking why _The Lord of the Rings_ isn't
on James's list, because everybody to his own taste, said the old
lady as she kissed her cow.
Because the list has very little to do with being "Core" or "Epic
Fantasy" and quite a lot to do with James being passive-aggressive.
"No implication is intended that these are the only twenty books you
should consider".
Given this disclaimer and the absence of some of the most obvious
candidates like _LoTR_, I originally figured that they were lists of
"books underappreciated within the field".
I have a sad feeling that "Magewolf" is objecting more to James' active
promotion of writers who happen to be women.
Or, as someone had to remind me, gay, coloured,
or Welsh.
Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)
2017-04-10 23:02:50 UTC
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Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by Jaimie Vandenbergh
Post by Ahasuerus
Post by Magewolf
[snip-snip]
And I've tried to avoid asking why _The Lord of the Rings_ isn't
on James's list, because everybody to his own taste, said the old
lady as she kissed her cow.
Because the list has very little to do with being "Core" or "Epic
Fantasy" and quite a lot to do with James being passive-aggressive.
"No implication is intended that these are the only twenty books you
should consider".
Given this disclaimer and the absence of some of the most obvious
candidates like _LoTR_, I originally figured that they were lists of
"books underappreciated within the field".
I have a sad feeling that "Magewolf" is objecting more to James' active
promotion of writers who happen to be women.
Or, as someone had to remind me, gay, coloured,
or Welsh.
WELSH? Good God, James, does your depravity know no boundaries?
--
Sea Wasp
/^\
;;;
Website: http://www.grandcentralarena.com Blog:
http://seawasp.livejournal.com
Ahasuerus
2017-04-09 14:47:55 UTC
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On Sunday, April 9, 2017 at 3:04:03 AM UTC-4, Jaimie Vandenbergh wrote:
[snip]
James' active promotion of writers who happen to be women.
Although the vast majority of the books on the three "core" lists
posted so far [1] were written or co-written by women, some were
written by male authors born outside of the US/UK (and Yoon Ha Lee,
whose background is complicated [2])

[1] http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/post/twenty-core-epic-fantasies-every-true-sf-fan-should-have-on-their-shelves
http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/post/twenty-core-space-operas-every-true-sf-fan-should-have-on-their-shelves
http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/post/twenty-core-sf-books-every-true-sf-fan-should-have-on-their-shelves

[2] http://www.sfsignal.com/archives/2015/03/exclusive-interview-yoon-ha-lee-operation-arcana-story-graphology-hemorrhage/
http://www.locusmag.com/Perspectives/2014/09/yoon-ha-lee-axions-theorems/
Magewolf
2017-04-09 15:13:11 UTC
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Post by Jaimie Vandenbergh
Post by Ahasuerus
Post by Magewolf
[snip-snip]
And I've tried to avoid asking why _The Lord of the Rings_ isn't
on James's list, because everybody to his own taste, said the old
lady as she kissed her cow.
Because the list has very little to do with being "Core" or "Epic
Fantasy" and quite a lot to do with James being passive-aggressive.
"No implication is intended that these are the only twenty books you
should consider".
Given this disclaimer and the absence of some of the most obvious
candidates like _LoTR_, I originally figured that they were lists of
"books underappreciated within the field".
I have a sad feeling that "Magewolf" is objecting more to James' active
promotion of writers who happen to be women.
Cheers - Jaimie
No, my problem is exactly what I wrote. Misuse of the word "core" and
the fact that at least a third of this list is not "Epic Fantasy" or
even fantasy at all in ASH's case.

I have read over half of every list he has put up and liked most of
them. I would even go so far as to to say we have have very similar
tastes going from his reviews. So I do not have a problem with the lists
being mostly female.

He seems to be making the lists up to spotlight woman and he is trying
to avoid using the usual suspects or at least their most well known
works. However I think he is being rather sloppy with them actually
matching up to the name of the lists.
Jaimie Vandenbergh
2017-04-09 15:23:23 UTC
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Post by Magewolf
Post by Jaimie Vandenbergh
Post by Ahasuerus
Post by Magewolf
[snip-snip]
And I've tried to avoid asking why _The Lord of the Rings_ isn't
on James's list, because everybody to his own taste, said the old
lady as she kissed her cow.
Because the list has very little to do with being "Core" or "Epic
Fantasy" and quite a lot to do with James being passive-aggressive.
"No implication is intended that these are the only twenty books you
should consider".
Given this disclaimer and the absence of some of the most obvious
candidates like _LoTR_, I originally figured that they were lists of
"books underappreciated within the field".
I have a sad feeling that "Magewolf" is objecting more to James' active
promotion of writers who happen to be women.
Cheers - Jaimie
No, my problem is exactly what I wrote.
Eh. I'm definitely disagreeing with your use of "passive-aggressive".
What he's doing is neither passively being aggressive, or particularly
aggressive.
Post by Magewolf
Misuse of the word "core" and
the fact that at least a third of this list is not "Epic Fantasy" or
even fantasy at all in ASH's case.
I have read over half of every list he has put up and liked most of
them. I would even go so far as to to say we have have very similar
tastes going from his reviews. So I do not have a problem with the lists
being mostly female.
Hurrah! Pleased to be corrected.
Post by Magewolf
He seems to be making the lists up to spotlight woman and he is trying
to avoid using the usual suspects or at least their most well known
works. However I think he is being rather sloppy with them actually
matching up to the name of the lists.
Fair enough.

Cheers - Jaimie
--
"I have an asteroid named after me. Isaac Asimov's got one too.
It's smaller and more eccentric." -- Arthur C. Clarke
Cryptoengineer
2017-04-09 15:38:33 UTC
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Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Magewolf
On Sat, 8 Apr 2017 12:55:20 -0700 (PDT), Ahasuerus
Post by Magewolf
[snip-snip]
And I've tried to avoid asking why _The Lord of the Rings_ isn't
on James's list, because everybody to his own taste, said the old
lady as she kissed her cow.
Because the list has very little to do with being "Core" or "Epic
Fantasy" and quite a lot to do with James being
passive-aggressive.
[...]
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Magewolf
He seems to be making the lists up to spotlight woman and he is trying
to avoid using the usual suspects or at least their most well known
works. However I think he is being rather sloppy with them actually
matching up to the name of the lists.
Fair enough.
These are great lists by good and underappreciated authors.

My irritation is that I don't feel the James is being transparent
in his description of his selection criteria.

pt
Chris Buckley
2017-04-09 20:50:31 UTC
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Raw Message
Post by Cryptoengineer
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Magewolf
On Sat, 8 Apr 2017 12:55:20 -0700 (PDT), Ahasuerus
Post by Magewolf
[snip-snip]
And I've tried to avoid asking why _The Lord of the Rings_ isn't
on James's list, because everybody to his own taste, said the old
lady as she kissed her cow.
Because the list has very little to do with being "Core" or "Epic
Fantasy" and quite a lot to do with James being
passive-aggressive.
[...]
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Magewolf
He seems to be making the lists up to spotlight woman and he is trying
to avoid using the usual suspects or at least their most well known
works. However I think he is being rather sloppy with them actually
matching up to the name of the lists.
Fair enough.
These are great lists by good and underappreciated authors.
My irritation is that I don't feel the James is being transparent
in his description of his selection criteria.
Indeed. I like the goal of his lists, and most of his selections are
reasonable, but as I said early on, I suspect some of his choices are not
because of quality but things like having a masculine sounding author name.

Note that not only is he saying we should read these books, but actually
buy them and have them on our shelves (if we're a true SF fan).

Amazon reviews may only be weakly correlated with quality, but when a
book by a mid-list American author has zero reviews on Amazon, one
suspects it was included for some reason other than importance to the
field or quality. It would be interesting to know what James's
definitions of "core" book and "true SF fan" are; they may not be
shared by anybody else on this planet!

Chris
Dimensional Traveler
2017-04-09 21:07:03 UTC
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Post by Chris Buckley
Post by Cryptoengineer
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Magewolf
On Sat, 8 Apr 2017 12:55:20 -0700 (PDT), Ahasuerus
Post by Magewolf
[snip-snip]
And I've tried to avoid asking why _The Lord of the Rings_ isn't
on James's list, because everybody to his own taste, said the old
lady as she kissed her cow.
Because the list has very little to do with being "Core" or "Epic
Fantasy" and quite a lot to do with James being
passive-aggressive.
[...]
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Magewolf
He seems to be making the lists up to spotlight woman and he is trying
to avoid using the usual suspects or at least their most well known
works. However I think he is being rather sloppy with them actually
matching up to the name of the lists.
Fair enough.
These are great lists by good and underappreciated authors.
My irritation is that I don't feel the James is being transparent
in his description of his selection criteria.
Indeed. I like the goal of his lists, and most of his selections are
reasonable, but as I said early on, I suspect some of his choices are not
because of quality but things like having a masculine sounding author name.
Note that not only is he saying we should read these books, but actually
buy them and have them on our shelves (if we're a true SF fan).
Amazon reviews may only be weakly correlated with quality, but when a
book by a mid-list American author has zero reviews on Amazon, one
suspects it was included for some reason other than importance to the
field or quality. It would be interesting to know what James's
definitions of "core" book and "true SF fan" are; they may not be
shared by anybody else on this planet!
I seem to recall that he has already said these lists are in direct
response to various Puppy-like lists of suspect objectivity.
--
Some days you just don't have enough middle fingers!
Quadibloc
2017-04-09 22:43:21 UTC
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Post by Dimensional Traveler
I seem to recall that he has already said these lists are in direct
response to various Puppy-like lists of suspect objectivity.
Ah.

Well, in that case, who would be willing to rail against him for daring to
suggest that Baen Books is not the foremost publisher of enduring science-
fiction works of literary merit and critical excellence?

Not me, I'm afraid, however entertaining I might find _some_ of their
output.

John Savard
Robert Bannister
2017-04-11 01:58:00 UTC
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Post by Quadibloc
Post by Dimensional Traveler
I seem to recall that he has already said these lists are in direct
response to various Puppy-like lists of suspect objectivity.
Ah.
Well, in that case, who would be willing to rail against him for daring to
suggest that Baen Books is not the foremost publisher of enduring science-
fiction works of literary merit and critical excellence?
I'd have said Daw Books used to be and before that, Gollancz.
Post by Quadibloc
Not me, I'm afraid, however entertaining I might find _some_ of their
output.
John Savard
--
Robert B. born England a long time ago;
Western Australia since 1972
James Nicoll
2017-04-10 04:36:12 UTC
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Post by Dimensional Traveler
Post by Chris Buckley
Post by Cryptoengineer
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Magewolf
On Sat, 8 Apr 2017 12:55:20 -0700 (PDT), Ahasuerus
Post by Magewolf
[snip-snip]
And I've tried to avoid asking why _The Lord of the Rings_ isn't
on James's list, because everybody to his own taste, said the old
lady as she kissed her cow.
Because the list has very little to do with being "Core" or "Epic
Fantasy" and quite a lot to do with James being
passive-aggressive.
[...]
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Magewolf
He seems to be making the lists up to spotlight woman and he is trying
to avoid using the usual suspects or at least their most well known
works. However I think he is being rather sloppy with them actually
matching up to the name of the lists.
Fair enough.
These are great lists by good and underappreciated authors.
My irritation is that I don't feel the James is being transparent
in his description of his selection criteria.
Indeed. I like the goal of his lists, and most of his selections are
reasonable, but as I said early on, I suspect some of his choices are not
because of quality but things like having a masculine sounding author name.
Note that not only is he saying we should read these books, but actually
buy them and have them on our shelves (if we're a true SF fan).
Amazon reviews may only be weakly correlated with quality, but when a
book by a mid-list American author has zero reviews on Amazon, one
suspects it was included for some reason other than importance to the
field or quality. It would be interesting to know what James's
definitions of "core" book and "true SF fan" are; they may not be
shared by anybody else on this planet!
I seem to recall that he has already said these lists are in direct
response to various Puppy-like lists of suspect objectivity.
Did I? Or did other people speculate that was what I am doing?

(did I mention here I have a newly diagnosed ... what it called?
Mild cognitive impairement. Main effects are occasional moments of
anomic aphasia and memory issues)
--
My reviews can be found at http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/
My Livejournal at http://www.livejournal.com/users/james_nicoll
My patreon is at https://www.patreon.com/jamesdnicoll
Dimensional Traveler
2017-04-10 14:48:17 UTC
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Post by James Nicoll
Post by Dimensional Traveler
Post by Chris Buckley
Post by Cryptoengineer
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Magewolf
On Sat, 8 Apr 2017 12:55:20 -0700 (PDT), Ahasuerus
Post by Magewolf
[snip-snip]
And I've tried to avoid asking why _The Lord of the Rings_ isn't
on James's list, because everybody to his own taste, said the old
lady as she kissed her cow.
Because the list has very little to do with being "Core" or "Epic
Fantasy" and quite a lot to do with James being
passive-aggressive.
[...]
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Magewolf
He seems to be making the lists up to spotlight woman and he is trying
to avoid using the usual suspects or at least their most well known
works. However I think he is being rather sloppy with them actually
matching up to the name of the lists.
Fair enough.
These are great lists by good and underappreciated authors.
My irritation is that I don't feel the James is being transparent
in his description of his selection criteria.
Indeed. I like the goal of his lists, and most of his selections are
reasonable, but as I said early on, I suspect some of his choices are not
because of quality but things like having a masculine sounding author name.
Note that not only is he saying we should read these books, but actually
buy them and have them on our shelves (if we're a true SF fan).
Amazon reviews may only be weakly correlated with quality, but when a
book by a mid-list American author has zero reviews on Amazon, one
suspects it was included for some reason other than importance to the
field or quality. It would be interesting to know what James's
definitions of "core" book and "true SF fan" are; they may not be
shared by anybody else on this planet!
I seem to recall that he has already said these lists are in direct
response to various Puppy-like lists of suspect objectivity.
Did I? Or did other people speculate that was what I am doing?
(did I mention here I have a newly diagnosed ... what it called?
Mild cognitive impairement. Main effects are occasional moments of
anomic aphasia and memory issues)
My apologies if I recall incorrectly and my sympathies regarding the
diagnosis.
--
Some days you just don't have enough middle fingers!
James Nicoll
2017-04-10 16:19:32 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Dimensional Traveler
Post by James Nicoll
Post by Dimensional Traveler
Post by Chris Buckley
Post by Cryptoengineer
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Magewolf
On Sat, 8 Apr 2017 12:55:20 -0700 (PDT), Ahasuerus
Post by Magewolf
[snip-snip]
And I've tried to avoid asking why _The Lord of the Rings_ isn't
on James's list, because everybody to his own taste, said the old
lady as she kissed her cow.
Because the list has very little to do with being "Core" or "Epic
Fantasy" and quite a lot to do with James being
passive-aggressive.
[...]
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Magewolf
He seems to be making the lists up to spotlight woman and he is trying
to avoid using the usual suspects or at least their most well known
works. However I think he is being rather sloppy with them actually
matching up to the name of the lists.
Fair enough.
These are great lists by good and underappreciated authors.
My irritation is that I don't feel the James is being transparent
in his description of his selection criteria.
Indeed. I like the goal of his lists, and most of his selections are
reasonable, but as I said early on, I suspect some of his choices are not
because of quality but things like having a masculine sounding author name.
Note that not only is he saying we should read these books, but actually
buy them and have them on our shelves (if we're a true SF fan).
Amazon reviews may only be weakly correlated with quality, but when a
book by a mid-list American author has zero reviews on Amazon, one
suspects it was included for some reason other than importance to the
field or quality. It would be interesting to know what James's
definitions of "core" book and "true SF fan" are; they may not be
shared by anybody else on this planet!
I seem to recall that he has already said these lists are in direct
response to various Puppy-like lists of suspect objectivity.
Did I? Or did other people speculate that was what I am doing?
(did I mention here I have a newly diagnosed ... what it called?
Mild cognitive impairement. Main effects are occasional moments of
anomic aphasia and memory issues)
My apologies if I recall incorrectly and my sympathies regarding the
diagnosis.
It's oddly reassuring to be able to tell people I am not being
inconsiderate or inattentive when I forget things almost immediately.
--
My reviews can be found at http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/
My Livejournal at http://www.livejournal.com/users/james_nicoll
My patreon is at https://www.patreon.com/jamesdnicoll
Peter Trei
2017-04-10 18:01:38 UTC
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Raw Message
Post by James Nicoll
Post by Dimensional Traveler
Post by James Nicoll
Post by Dimensional Traveler
Post by Chris Buckley
Post by Cryptoengineer
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Magewolf
On Sat, 8 Apr 2017 12:55:20 -0700 (PDT), Ahasuerus
Post by Magewolf
[snip-snip]
And I've tried to avoid asking why _The Lord of the Rings_ isn't
on James's list, because everybody to his own taste, said the old
lady as she kissed her cow.
Because the list has very little to do with being "Core" or "Epic
Fantasy" and quite a lot to do with James being
passive-aggressive.
[...]
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Magewolf
He seems to be making the lists up to spotlight woman and he is trying
to avoid using the usual suspects or at least their most well known
works. However I think he is being rather sloppy with them actually
matching up to the name of the lists.
Fair enough.
These are great lists by good and underappreciated authors.
My irritation is that I don't feel the James is being transparent
in his description of his selection criteria.
Indeed. I like the goal of his lists, and most of his selections are
reasonable, but as I said early on, I suspect some of his choices are not
because of quality but things like having a masculine sounding author name.
Note that not only is he saying we should read these books, but actually
buy them and have them on our shelves (if we're a true SF fan).
Amazon reviews may only be weakly correlated with quality, but when a
book by a mid-list American author has zero reviews on Amazon, one
suspects it was included for some reason other than importance to the
field or quality. It would be interesting to know what James's
definitions of "core" book and "true SF fan" are; they may not be
shared by anybody else on this planet!
I seem to recall that he has already said these lists are in direct
response to various Puppy-like lists of suspect objectivity.
Did I? Or did other people speculate that was what I am doing?
(did I mention here I have a newly diagnosed ... what it called?
Mild cognitive impairement. Main effects are occasional moments of
anomic aphasia and memory issues)
My apologies if I recall incorrectly and my sympathies regarding the
diagnosis.
It's oddly reassuring to be able to tell people I am not being
inconsiderate or inattentive when I forget things almost immediately.
James:

My sympathies.

I've had anomia my entire life. People's names are a particular problem.
I can't seem to easily form an association between a name and a person. When
introduced, its as if there's a burst of static, and the name simply doesn't
stick. I can remember people, by appearance, role, and location. I can look
at a name, and say 'yes, I've heard of that person'. But linking the two takes
me a lot longer than it does for most, and its quite debilitating socially.

Objects sometimes have this problem too, but to a lesser extent.

pt
Carl Fink
2017-04-10 18:35:47 UTC
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Post by Peter Trei
I've had anomia my entire life. People's names are a particular problem.
I can't seem to easily form an association between a name and a person. When
introduced, its as if there's a burst of static, and the name simply doesn't
stick. I can remember people, by appearance, role, and location. I can look
at a name, and say 'yes, I've heard of that person'. But linking the two takes
me a lot longer than it does for most, and its quite debilitating socially.
Objects sometimes have this problem too, but to a lesser extent.
Objects also forget people's names?
--
Carl Fink ***@nitpicking.com

Read my blog at blog.nitpicking.com. Reviews! Observations!
Stupid mistakes you can correct!
Peter Trei
2017-04-10 19:36:00 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Carl Fink
Post by Peter Trei
I've had anomia my entire life. People's names are a particular problem.
I can't seem to easily form an association between a name and a person. When
introduced, its as if there's a burst of static, and the name simply doesn't
stick. I can remember people, by appearance, role, and location. I can look
at a name, and say 'yes, I've heard of that person'. But linking the two takes
me a lot longer than it does for most, and its quite debilitating socially.
Objects sometimes have this problem too, but to a lesser extent.
Objects also forget people's names?
Objects sometimes have the problem of my failing to remember their names.
[At least they don't get offended, as people do.]
pt
Jay E. Morris
2017-04-10 21:46:20 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Peter Trei
Post by Carl Fink
Post by Peter Trei
I've had anomia my entire life. People's names are a particular problem.
I can't seem to easily form an association between a name and a person. When
introduced, its as if there's a burst of static, and the name simply doesn't
stick. I can remember people, by appearance, role, and location. I can look
at a name, and say 'yes, I've heard of that person'. But linking the two takes
me a lot longer than it does for most, and its quite debilitating socially.
Objects sometimes have this problem too, but to a lesser extent.
Objects also forget people's names?
Objects sometimes have the problem of my failing to remember their names.
[At least they don't get offended, as people do.]
pt
Perhaps they're just nicer and don't express it to you face-to-face.
h***@gmail.com
2017-04-10 23:54:21 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Carl Fink
Post by Peter Trei
I've had anomia my entire life. People's names are a particular problem.
I can't seem to easily form an association between a name and a person. When
introduced, its as if there's a burst of static, and the name simply doesn't
stick. I can remember people, by appearance, role, and location. I can look
at a name, and say 'yes, I've heard of that person'. But linking the two takes
me a lot longer than it does for most, and its quite debilitating socially.
Objects sometimes have this problem too, but to a lesser extent.
Objects also forget people's names?
Ever used a computer?
Robert Bannister
2017-04-11 01:58:59 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by h***@gmail.com
Post by Carl Fink
Post by Peter Trei
I've had anomia my entire life. People's names are a particular problem.
I can't seem to easily form an association between a name and a person. When
introduced, its as if there's a burst of static, and the name simply doesn't
stick. I can remember people, by appearance, role, and location. I can look
at a name, and say 'yes, I've heard of that person'. But linking the two takes
me a lot longer than it does for most, and its quite debilitating socially.
Objects sometimes have this problem too, but to a lesser extent.
Objects also forget people's names?
Ever used a computer?
So that's what it's called.
--
Robert B. born England a long time ago;
Western Australia since 1972
Bill Dugan
2017-04-10 14:34:57 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Chris Buckley
Post by Cryptoengineer
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Magewolf
On Sat, 8 Apr 2017 12:55:20 -0700 (PDT), Ahasuerus
Post by Magewolf
[snip-snip]
And I've tried to avoid asking why _The Lord of the Rings_ isn't
on James's list, because everybody to his own taste, said the old
lady as she kissed her cow.
Because the list has very little to do with being "Core" or "Epic
Fantasy" and quite a lot to do with James being
passive-aggressive.
[...]
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Magewolf
He seems to be making the lists up to spotlight woman and he is trying
to avoid using the usual suspects or at least their most well known
works. However I think he is being rather sloppy with them actually
matching up to the name of the lists.
Fair enough.
These are great lists by good and underappreciated authors.
My irritation is that I don't feel the James is being transparent
in his description of his selection criteria.
Indeed. I like the goal of his lists, and most of his selections are
reasonable, but as I said early on, I suspect some of his choices are not
because of quality but things like having a masculine sounding author name.
Note that not only is he saying we should read these books, but actually
buy them and have them on our shelves (if we're a true SF fan).
Not completely practical advice, since he included some old classics
that are long out of print and hard to find.
Post by Chris Buckley
Amazon reviews may only be weakly correlated with quality, but when a
book by a mid-list American author has zero reviews on Amazon, one
suspects it was included for some reason other than importance to the
field or quality. It would be interesting to know what James's
definitions of "core" book and "true SF fan" are; they may not be
shared by anybody else on this planet!
Chris
-dsr-
2017-04-09 21:05:00 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Cryptoengineer
These are great lists by good and underappreciated authors.
My irritation is that I don't feel the James is being transparent
in his description of his selection criteria.
pt
So... in all those similar lists by other people, isn't it odd that
there's usually only zero to two non-male authors? Yeah, there's probably
some conscious or unconscious selection criteria there.

If James needs a selection criteria footnote, then all the lists before him
need one too.

And since they don't generally have one, it's OK if James doesn't either.

-dsr-
Quadibloc
2017-04-09 22:40:21 UTC
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Post by -dsr-
So... in all those similar lists by other people, isn't it odd that
there's usually only zero to two non-male authors? Yeah, there's probably
some conscious or unconscious selection criteria there.
Maybe. Maybe in a fair list of twenty of the best books, three to six of
them would be by women - in at least some heavily male-dominated literary
genres. Such as science fiction.

When it comes to fantasy, I'm not so sure. Maybe less than half, maybe
more than half. Maybe even two-thirds... especially if it's a list of the
best recent fantasy, not the best all-time fantasy.

Lists dominated by male authors may just reflect the barriers to women in
male-dominated fields.

But I think that it's mistaken to criticize the OP of this thread for
being dishonest, or even merely disingenuous, because to me it seems that
his claim of impartiality is being *openly* made in jest. I know that
irony and sarcasm are hard to see on the Internet, but that is where I
stand.

John Savard
Robert Carnegie
2017-04-10 17:45:57 UTC
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Post by Quadibloc
Post by -dsr-
So... in all those similar lists by other people, isn't it odd that
there's usually only zero to two non-male authors? Yeah, there's probably
some conscious or unconscious selection criteria there.
Maybe. Maybe in a fair list of twenty of the best books, three to six of
them would be by women - in at least some heavily male-dominated literary
genres. Such as science fiction.
When it comes to fantasy, I'm not so sure. Maybe less than half, maybe
more than half. Maybe even two-thirds... especially if it's a list of the
best recent fantasy, not the best all-time fantasy.
Lists dominated by male authors may just reflect the barriers to women in
male-dominated fields.
But I think that it's mistaken to criticize the OP of this thread for
being dishonest, or even merely disingenuous, because to me it seems that
his claim of impartiality is being *openly* made in jest. I know that
irony and sarcasm are hard to see on the Internet, but that is where I
stand.
Was there a claim of impartiality? I don't
remember.
James Nicoll
2017-04-07 13:44:01 UTC
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Post by James Nicoll
Post by James Nicoll
Twenty Core Epic Fantasies Every True SF Fan Should Have On Their Shelves
http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/post/twenty-core-epic-fantasies-every-true-sf-fan-should-have-on-their-shelves
Wow, I have not purchased nor read a single one of those ! Now if the
category was urban fantasy ...
I am surprised that you did not include Jo Walton's _Among Others_ which
I have purchased and read.
https://www.amazon.com/Among-Others-Hugo-Award-Winner/dp/0765331721/
Have not read it. When it came out, other people picked all my books for
me and my little projects have not allowed me to backtrack to read that
one.
--
My reviews can be found at http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/
My Livejournal at http://www.livejournal.com/users/james_nicoll
My patreon is at https://www.patreon.com/jamesdnicoll
Carl Fink
2017-04-07 00:14:47 UTC
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Post by James Nicoll
Twenty Core Epic Fantasies Every True SF Fan Should Have On Their Shelves
http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/post/twenty-core-epic-fantasies-every-true-sf-fan-should-have-on-their-shelves
Wow, I've actually read 9 of those. For me that's a high batting average.
--
Carl Fink ***@nitpicking.com

Read my blog at blog.nitpicking.com. Reviews! Observations!
Stupid mistakes you can correct!
David DeLaney
2017-04-07 01:51:46 UTC
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Post by James Nicoll
Twenty Core Epic Fantasies Every True SF Fan Should Have On Their Shelves
< http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/post/twenty-core-epic-fantasies-every-true-sf
-fan-should-have-on-their-shelves >

I have read, let's see, sixteen or so of these? And I may own one or two more.

Dave, Diane Duane is underappreciated, I think
--
\/David DeLaney posting thru EarthLink - "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
gatekeeper.vic.com/~dbd - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.
Carl Fink
2017-04-07 13:14:56 UTC
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Post by David DeLaney
Dave, Diane Duane is underappreciated, I think
You just like her initials.

The trouble is, *Door* is her best work, in my opinion. I lost interest
when she had Tuckerizations of her cats beat up Lucifer.
--
Carl Fink ***@nitpicking.com

Read my blog at blog.nitpicking.com. Reviews! Observations!
Stupid mistakes you can correct!
Quadibloc
2017-04-07 15:33:41 UTC
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Post by Carl Fink
Post by David DeLaney
Dave, Diane Duane is underappreciated, I think
You just like her initials.
The trouble is, *Door* is her best work, in my opinion. I lost interest
when she had Tuckerizations of her cats beat up Lucifer.
I've read several books in the Door series, and some of her Star Trek
novelizations. I found them entertaining and readable. I have not
attempted to judge the extent to which she may commend herself to
aficionados of serious literature.

John Savard
Robert Carnegie
2017-04-07 21:07:20 UTC
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Post by Quadibloc
Post by Carl Fink
Post by David DeLaney
Dave, Diane Duane is underappreciated, I think
You just like her initials.
The trouble is, *Door* is her best work, in my opinion. I lost interest
when she had Tuckerizations of her cats beat up Lucifer.
I've read several books in the Door series, and some of her Star Trek
novelizations. I found them entertaining and readable. I have not
attempted to judge the extent to which she may commend herself to
aficionados of serious literature.
...if for whatever reason the books you've read
aren't considered serious.

Call it "magic realism" and the mundanity snobs
will swallow "The Eye of Argon".
Dorothy J Heydt
2017-04-07 16:10:42 UTC
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Post by Carl Fink
Post by David DeLaney
Dave, Diane Duane is underappreciated, I think
You just like her initials.
The trouble is, *Door* is her best work, in my opinion. I lost interest
when she had Tuckerizations of her cats beat up Lucifer.
Hm. Are you familiar with Barbara Hambly's _Bride of the Rat God
(yes, that really is its title)? In which



Spoiler, I suppose











three Pekinese dogs morph into Fu-dogs (sort of like lions) and
fight a Seriously Evil Demon inhabiting the wired skeleton of a
sabretooth cat? With the aid of a silverplate camera.

One of my favorite fantasies, set in 1927 Hollywood, and I wish
Spielberg would film it.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Carl Fink
2017-04-07 17:36:42 UTC
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Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Hm. Are you familiar with Barbara Hambly's _Bride of the Rat God
(yes, that really is its title)? In which
Spoiler, I suppose
three Pekinese dogs morph into Fu-dogs (sort of like lions) and
fight a Seriously Evil Demon inhabiting the wired skeleton of a
sabretooth cat? With the aid of a silverplate camera.
One of my favorite fantasies, set in 1927 Hollywood, and I wish
Spielberg would film it.
I am, in fact. It isn't my favorite of Hambly's books but I did greatly
enjoy it. (I liked her stuff a lot before she moved mostly into vampires
and then to historical slavery urban fantasy or whatever.)
--
Carl Fink ***@nitpicking.com

Read my blog at blog.nitpicking.com. Reviews! Observations!
Stupid mistakes you can correct!
Robert Woodward
2017-04-08 04:49:00 UTC
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Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Carl Fink
Post by David DeLaney
Dave, Diane Duane is underappreciated, I think
You just like her initials.
The trouble is, *Door* is her best work, in my opinion. I lost interest
when she had Tuckerizations of her cats beat up Lucifer.
Hm. Are you familiar with Barbara Hambly's _Bride of the Rat God
(yes, that really is its title)? In which
<SNIP of plot details>
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
One of my favorite fantasies, set in 1927 Hollywood, and I wish
Spielberg would film it.
I believe that it was 1923 Hollywood (which, as she noted, didn't have
very many Hollywood landmarks yet).
--
"We have advanced to new and surprising levels of bafflement."
Imperial Auditor Miles Vorkosigan describes progress in _Komarr_.
‹-----------------------------------------------------
Robert Woodward ***@drizzle.com
David DeLaney
2017-04-09 06:32:25 UTC
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Post by Carl Fink
Post by David DeLaney
Dave, Diane Duane is underappreciated, I think
You just like her initials.
The trouble is, *Door* is her best work, in my opinion. I lost interest
when she had Tuckerizations of her cats beat up Lucifer.
Well, her Star Trek novels are also very good, especially The Wounded Sky;
it's not just me, others have posted love for her Romulan series. And I also
like her Young Wizards series quite a bit. (It does share some magical elements
with the Door series, though not the Fire or the theology.)

Dave, would you be interested in her Tuckercats getting involved in a murder
mystery in noir-era San Francisco, I think it was?
--
\/David DeLaney posting thru EarthLink - "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
gatekeeper.vic.com/~dbd - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.
Carl Fink
2017-04-09 10:00:12 UTC
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Post by David DeLaney
Post by Carl Fink
The trouble is, *Door* is her best work, in my opinion. I lost interest
when she had Tuckerizations of her cats beat up Lucifer.
Well, her Star Trek novels are also very good, especially The Wounded Sky;
it's not just me, others have posted love for her Romulan series. And I also
like her Young Wizards series quite a bit. (It does share some magical elements
with the Door series, though not the Fire or the theology.)
I liked the first two or three of her Trek novels and same with the Young
Wizards books. It was with the "my cats are the heroes" series that I lost
interest.
--
Carl Fink ***@nitpicking.com

Read my blog at blog.nitpicking.com. Reviews! Observations!
Stupid mistakes you can correct!
Garrett Wollman
2017-04-09 22:53:55 UTC
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Post by Carl Fink
I liked the first two or three of her Trek novels and same with the Young
Wizards books. It was with the "my cats are the heroes" series that I lost
interest.
Where "series" = "two books out of thirteen, and off the main
continuity at that"? Unless she's written more that have somehow
escaped my notice, which seems unlikely....

-GAWollman
--
Garrett A. Wollman | "Act to avoid constraining the future; if you can,
***@bimajority.org| act to remove constraint from the future. This is
Opinions not shared by| a thing you can do, are able to do, to do together."
my employers. | - Graydon Saunders, _A Succession of Bad Days_ (2015)
Carl Fink
2017-04-09 23:56:20 UTC
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Post by Garrett Wollman
Post by Carl Fink
I liked the first two or three of her Trek novels and same with the Young
Wizards books. It was with the "my cats are the heroes" series that I lost
interest.
Where "series" = "two books out of thirteen, and off the main
continuity at that"? Unless she's written more that have somehow
escaped my notice, which seems unlikely....
I think of the cats-fight-the-devil books as a separate series in he same
universe.
--
Carl Fink ***@nitpicking.com

Read my blog at blog.nitpicking.com. Reviews! Observations!
Stupid mistakes you can correct!
David DeLaney
2017-04-10 07:42:49 UTC
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Post by Garrett Wollman
Post by Carl Fink
I liked the first two or three of her Trek novels and same with the Young
Wizards books. It was with the "my cats are the heroes" series that I lost
interest.
Where "series" = "two books out of thirteen, and off the main
continuity at that"? Unless she's written more that have somehow
escaped my notice, which seems unlikely....
There's a third, which is on her website at the-big-meow.com ... which is
apparently down for a while, saying it'll be open again November last year.
Bah. But archive.org has it, at the chapter links at the bottom of
https://web-beta.archive.org/web/20150611120631/http://www.the-big-meow.com:80/
, for your perusal.

Dave, will spread words for food
--
\/David DeLaney posting thru EarthLink - "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
gatekeeper.vic.com/~dbd - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.
Default User
2017-04-07 20:17:40 UTC
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Post by James Nicoll
Twenty Core Epic Fantasies Every True SF Fan Should Have On Their Shelves
I figured (correctly) that I would be shut out on this one. I don't read much fantasy and I especially don't like epic fantasy.


Brian
Phil Brown
2017-04-12 20:50:46 UTC
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