Discussion:
"What if Hillary had won …", an alternate history.
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Lynn McGuire
2018-03-05 22:16:20 UTC
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From a friend, "What if Hillary had won …", an alternate history.
https://amgreatness.com/2018/03/05/woman-high-castle/

"Hillary Clinton is not only the nation’s first woman president, she
also has claim to be its most environmentally conscious. Not only did
she make a massive investment in the sustainable, earth-friendly
technologies of wind and solar power, but she also slapped a 300 percent
tax on the mining or sale of coal within the United States and had her
technology experts draw up plans for the total elimination of fossil
fuels by the year 2024. Under the direction of Michael Mann, the
Environmental Protection Agency put the battle against man-made climate
change at the top of its agenda and, with its budget doubled, will be
able to prosecute climate deniers for furthering an anti-science agenda
that put not only our children, but also the entire planet at risk."

So if Hillary had won, I would be going to jail now. Lovely.

Lynn
Lawrence Watt-Evans
2018-03-05 22:38:47 UTC
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On Mon, 5 Mar 2018 16:16:20 -0600, Lynn McGuire
<***@gmail.com> wrote:

> From a friend, "What if Hillary had won …", an alternate history.
> https://amgreatness.com/2018/03/05/woman-high-castle/
>
>"Hillary Clinton is not only the nation’s first woman president, she
>also has claim to be its most environmentally conscious. Not only did
>she make a massive investment in the sustainable, earth-friendly
>technologies of wind and solar power, but she also slapped a 300 percent
>tax on the mining or sale of coal within the United States and had her
>technology experts draw up plans for the total elimination of fossil
>fuels by the year 2024. Under the direction of Michael Mann, the
>Environmental Protection Agency put the battle against man-made climate
>change at the top of its agenda and, with its budget doubled, will be
>able to prosecute climate deniers for furthering an anti-science agenda
>that put not only our children, but also the entire planet at risk."
>
>So if Hillary had won, I would be going to jail now. Lovely.

a) Why do you take that particular guess seriously?

b) The ACLU would make sure to shut any such rule down on First
Amendment grounds, should it ever be attempted. Which it wouldn't be.



--
My webpage is at http://www.watt-evans.com
My latest novel is Stone Unturned: A Legend of Ethshar.
See http://www.ethshar.com/StoneUnturned.shtml
Chris Buckley
2018-03-05 23:03:04 UTC
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On 2018-03-05, Lawrence Watt-Evans <***@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Mon, 5 Mar 2018 16:16:20 -0600, Lynn McGuire
><***@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> From a friend, "What if Hillary had won …", an alternate history.
>> https://amgreatness.com/2018/03/05/woman-high-castle/
>>
>>"Hillary Clinton is not only the nation’s first woman president, she
>>also has claim to be its most environmentally conscious. Not only did
>>she make a massive investment in the sustainable, earth-friendly
>>technologies of wind and solar power, but she also slapped a 300 percent
>>tax on the mining or sale of coal within the United States and had her
>>technology experts draw up plans for the total elimination of fossil
>>fuels by the year 2024. Under the direction of Michael Mann, the
>>Environmental Protection Agency put the battle against man-made climate
>>change at the top of its agenda and, with its budget doubled, will be
>>able to prosecute climate deniers for furthering an anti-science agenda
>>that put not only our children, but also the entire planet at risk."
>>
>>So if Hillary had won, I would be going to jail now. Lovely.
>
> a) Why do you take that particular guess seriously?
>
> b) The ACLU would make sure to shut any such rule down on First
> Amendment grounds, should it ever be attempted. Which it wouldn't be.

I agree with your first point, but I'm not so sure anymore of the
second. I was a dues-paying member of the ACLU for 29 years, but dropped
them 3-4 years ago because they had stopped taking actions in support of
free speech. For example, for quite a long time they had no position
at all on "safe zones" at colleges. They do now, but as far as I know have
not actively tried to change any college or university safe zone position.
Similarly, they've been remarkably silent on the white supremacist college
visits - if pressed the ACLU will say they should be allowed, but they
have done almost nothing actively. They have changed dramatically over
the years, in my opinion for the worse.

Chris
David Johnston
2018-03-05 22:42:30 UTC
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On 2018-03-05 3:16 PM, Lynn McGuire wrote:
> From a friend, "What if Hillary had won …", an alternate history.
>    https://amgreatness.com/2018/03/05/woman-high-castle/
>
> "Hillary Clinton is not only the nation’s first woman president, she
> also has claim to be its most environmentally conscious. Not only did
> she make a massive investment in the sustainable, earth-friendly
> technologies of wind and solar power, but she also slapped a 300 percent
> tax on the mining or sale of coal within the United States

Wow. That's an incredibly stupid claim.
Dorothy J Heydt
2018-03-06 02:30:15 UTC
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In article <p7kh4l$1tua$***@gioia.aioe.org>,
David Johnston <***@yahoo.com> wrote:
>On 2018-03-05 3:16 PM, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>> From a friend, "What if Hillary had won 
", an alternate history.
>>    https://amgreatness.com/2018/03/05/woman-high-castle/
>>
>> "Hillary Clinton is not only the nation’s first woman president, she
>> also has claim to be its most environmentally conscious. Not only did
>> she make a massive investment in the sustainable, earth-friendly
>> technologies of wind and solar power, but she also slapped a 300 percent
>> tax on the mining or sale of coal within the United States
>
>Wow. That's an incredibly stupid claim.

It would be unnecessary, certanly. Even in OTL manufacturers are
switching away from coal to other genergy sources. There will
come a time when nobody is mining coal because nobody is *buying*
coal.

--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Dan Tilque
2018-03-06 03:59:07 UTC
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Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
> In article <p7kh4l$1tua$***@gioia.aioe.org>,
> David Johnston <***@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> On 2018-03-05 3:16 PM, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>>> From a friend, "What if Hillary had won …", an alternate history.
>>> Â Â https://amgreatness.com/2018/03/05/woman-high-castle/
>>>
>>> "Hillary Clinton is not only the nation’s first woman president, she
>>> also has claim to be its most environmentally conscious. Not only did
>>> she make a massive investment in the sustainable, earth-friendly
>>> technologies of wind and solar power, but she also slapped a 300 percent
>>> tax on the mining or sale of coal within the United States
>> Wow. That's an incredibly stupid claim.

Right. The president can't arbitrarily tax a product within the US. She
could ask Congress to pass such a tax, but that would be unlikely to
happen if the Republicans control both houses. The taxes Trump is
threatening to put on steel and aluminum are on imports, which an
existing law allows him to tax only if the importing countries are
dumping. I expect those taxes could (and probably will) be challenged in
court.

And I never saw Hillary as being an especially green candidate. She's
probably moreso than your average Republican, but that's a very low bar.

>
> It would be unnecessary, certanly. Even in OTL manufacturers are
> switching away from coal to other genergy sources. There will
> come a time when nobody is mining coal because nobody is *buying*
> coal.
>

There are uses for coal besides generating power -- notably steel
production. We could reduce that by recycling more steel, but I'm not
sure it will ever go completely down to zero. Most coal that's mined,
though, is not suitable for steel production.

--
Dan Tilque
Kevrob
2018-03-06 04:09:12 UTC
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On Monday, March 5, 2018 at 11:00:25 PM UTC-5, Dan Tilque wrote:
> Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
> > In article <p7kh4l$1tua$***@gioia.aioe.org>,
> > David Johnston <***@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >> On 2018-03-05 3:16 PM, Lynn McGuire wrote:
> >>> From a friend, "What if Hillary had won …", an alternate history.
> >>> Â Â https://amgreatness.com/2018/03/05/woman-high-castle/
> >>>
> >>> "Hillary Clinton is not only the nation’s first woman president, she
> >>> also has claim to be its most environmentally conscious. Not only did
> >>> she make a massive investment in the sustainable, earth-friendly
> >>> technologies of wind and solar power, but she also slapped a 300 percent
> >>> tax on the mining or sale of coal within the United States
> >> Wow. That's an incredibly stupid claim.
>
> Right. The president can't arbitrarily tax a product within the US. She
> could ask Congress to pass such a tax, but that would be unlikely to
> happen if the Republicans control both houses. The taxes Trump is
> threatening to put on steel and aluminum are on imports, which an
> existing law allows him to tax only if the importing countries are
> dumping. I expect those taxes could (and probably will) be challenged in
> court.
>

Not to mention at the World Trade Organization.

> And I never saw Hillary as being an especially green candidate. She's
> probably moreso than your average Republican, but that's a very low bar.
>
> >
> > It would be unnecessary, certanly. Even in OTL manufacturers are
> > switching away from coal to other genergy sources. There will
> > come a time when nobody is mining coal because nobody is *buying*
> > coal.
> >
>
> There are uses for coal besides generating power -- notably steel
> production.

Coal-fired pizza ovens!

Kevin R
Lynn McGuire
2018-03-06 05:08:11 UTC
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On 3/5/2018 9:59 PM, Dan Tilque wrote:
> Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
>> In article <p7kh4l$1tua$***@gioia.aioe.org>,
>> David Johnston  <***@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>> On 2018-03-05 3:16 PM, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>>>>  From a friend, "What if Hillary had won …", an alternate history.
>>>>  Â   https://amgreatness.com/2018/03/05/woman-high-castle/
>>>>
>>>> "Hillary Clinton is not only the nation’s first woman president,
>>>> she also has claim to be its most environmentally conscious. Not
>>>> only did she make a massive investment in the sustainable,
>>>> earth-friendly technologies of wind and solar power, but she also
>>>> slapped a 300 percent tax on the mining or sale of coal within the
>>>> United States
>>> Wow.  That's an incredibly stupid claim.
>
> Right. The president can't arbitrarily tax a product within the US. She
> could ask Congress to pass such a tax, but that would be unlikely to
> happen if the Republicans control both houses. The taxes Trump is
> threatening to put on steel and aluminum are on imports, which an
> existing law allows him to tax only if the importing countries are
> dumping. I expect those taxes could (and probably will) be challenged in
> court.
...
Actually, there is an important exception to that rule that has yet to
be tested. The President can order the EPA to "fine" people for air and
water emissions. That provision in the Clean Water Act and the Clean
Air Act has yet to be tested significantly. Or at all, I am not sure.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clean_Air_Act_(United_States)

Lynn
Peter Trei
2018-03-06 13:18:15 UTC
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On Monday, March 5, 2018 at 5:16:24 PM UTC-5, Lynn McGuire wrote:
> From a friend, "What if Hillary had won …", an alternate history.
> https://amgreatness.com/2018/03/05/woman-high-castle/
>
> "Hillary Clinton is not only the nation’s first woman president, she
> also has claim to be its most environmentally conscious. Not only did
> she make a massive investment in the sustainable, earth-friendly
> technologies of wind and solar power, but she also slapped a 300 percent
> tax on the mining or sale of coal within the United States and had her
> technology experts draw up plans for the total elimination of fossil
> fuels by the year 2024. Under the direction of Michael Mann, the
> Environmental Protection Agency put the battle against man-made climate
> change at the top of its agenda and, with its budget doubled, will be
> able to prosecute climate deniers for furthering an anti-science agenda
> that put not only our children, but also the entire planet at risk."
>
> So if Hillary had won, I would be going to jail now. Lovely.
>
> Lynn

This is appropriate for this group, being fantasy. Realize that the author
isn't a Hillary fan (but then, who is?), but writing ironically.

Hillary merits a lot of criticism (as does Trump), but making up fake bad
things she *might* have done, and then using that made up shit to beat her
over the head, is mental masturbation.

pt
Kevrob
2018-03-06 18:48:51 UTC
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On Tuesday, March 6, 2018 at 8:18:22 AM UTC-5, Peter Trei wrote:
> On Monday, March 5, 2018 at 5:16:24 PM UTC-5, Lynn McGuire wrote:

> > So if Hillary had won, I would be going to jail now. Lovely.
> >
> > Lynn
>
> This is appropriate for this group, being fantasy. Realize that the author
> isn't a Hillary fan (but then, who is?), but writing ironically.
>
> Hillary merits a lot of criticism (as does Trump), but making up fake bad
> things she *might* have done, and then using that made up shit to beat her
> over the head, is mental masturbation.
>
>

If the "alternate history" had been posted to soc.history.what-if,
it would have been derided by most visitors to the group as
violating a "Ban on Politics." AHs that are that recent are not
taken seriously, anyway.

Now, "If Barry Goldwater had defeated Jack Kennedy,
what would Goldwater Girl Hillary Rodham's future have
been like?"

That'd be fun.

Kevin R
Lawrence Watt-Evans
2018-03-06 20:12:03 UTC
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On Tue, 6 Mar 2018 10:48:51 -0800 (PST), Kevrob <***@my-deja.com>
wrote:

>On Tuesday, March 6, 2018 at 8:18:22 AM UTC-5, Peter Trei wrote:
>> On Monday, March 5, 2018 at 5:16:24 PM UTC-5, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>
>> > So if Hillary had won, I would be going to jail now. Lovely.
>> >
>> > Lynn
>>
>> This is appropriate for this group, being fantasy. Realize that the author
>> isn't a Hillary fan (but then, who is?), but writing ironically.
>>
>> Hillary merits a lot of criticism (as does Trump), but making up fake bad
>> things she *might* have done, and then using that made up shit to beat her
>> over the head, is mental masturbation.
>>
>>
>
>If the "alternate history" had been posted to soc.history.what-if,
>it would have been derided by most visitors to the group as
>violating a "Ban on Politics." AHs that are that recent are not
>taken seriously, anyway.
>
>Now, "If Barry Goldwater had defeated Jack Kennedy,
>what would Goldwater Girl Hillary Rodham's future have
>been like?"
>
>That'd be fun.

Goldwater ran against Johnson, not Kennedy; are you assuming the
assassination didn't happen?




--
My webpage is at http://www.watt-evans.com
My latest novel is Stone Unturned: A Legend of Ethshar.
See http://www.ethshar.com/StoneUnturned.shtml
David Johnston
2018-03-06 21:33:15 UTC
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On 2018-03-06 1:12 PM, Lawrence Watt-Evans wrote:
> On Tue, 6 Mar 2018 10:48:51 -0800 (PST), Kevrob <***@my-deja.com>
> wrote:
>
>> On Tuesday, March 6, 2018 at 8:18:22 AM UTC-5, Peter Trei wrote:
>>> On Monday, March 5, 2018 at 5:16:24 PM UTC-5, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>>
>>>> So if Hillary had won, I would be going to jail now. Lovely.
>>>>
>>>> Lynn
>>>
>>> This is appropriate for this group, being fantasy. Realize that the author
>>> isn't a Hillary fan (but then, who is?), but writing ironically.
>>>
>>> Hillary merits a lot of criticism (as does Trump), but making up fake bad
>>> things she *might* have done, and then using that made up shit to beat her
>>> over the head, is mental masturbation.
>>>
>>>
>>
>> If the "alternate history" had been posted to soc.history.what-if,
>> it would have been derided by most visitors to the group as
>> violating a "Ban on Politics." AHs that are that recent are not
>> taken seriously, anyway.
>>
>> Now, "If Barry Goldwater had defeated Jack Kennedy,
>> what would Goldwater Girl Hillary Rodham's future have
>> been like?"
>>
>> That'd be fun.
>
> Goldwater ran against Johnson, not Kennedy; are you assuming the
> assassination didn't happen?
>
>
>
>

Alternate history means never having say you're sorry.
Kevrob
2018-03-06 22:59:02 UTC
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On Tuesday, March 6, 2018 at 3:12:05 PM UTC-5, Lawrence Watt-Evans wrote:
> On Tue, 6 Mar 2018 10:48:51 -0800 (PST), Kevrob <***@my-deja.com>
> wrote:
>
> >On Tuesday, March 6, 2018 at 8:18:22 AM UTC-5, Peter Trei wrote:
> >> On Monday, March 5, 2018 at 5:16:24 PM UTC-5, Lynn McGuire wrote:
> >
> >> > So if Hillary had won, I would be going to jail now. Lovely.
> >> >
> >> > Lynn
> >>
> >> This is appropriate for this group, being fantasy. Realize that the author
> >> isn't a Hillary fan (but then, who is?), but writing ironically.
> >>
> >> Hillary merits a lot of criticism (as does Trump), but making up fake bad
> >> things she *might* have done, and then using that made up shit to beat her
> >> over the head, is mental masturbation.
> >>
> >>
> >
> >If the "alternate history" had been posted to soc.history.what-if,
> >it would have been derided by most visitors to the group as
> >violating a "Ban on Politics." AHs that are that recent are not
> >taken seriously, anyway.
> >
> >Now, "If Barry Goldwater had defeated Jack Kennedy,
> >what would Goldwater Girl Hillary Rodham's future have
> >been like?"
> >
> >That'd be fun.
>
> Goldwater ran against Johnson, not Kennedy; are you assuming the
> assassination didn't happen?

Yes, that would be a "point of divergence." Oswald runs afoul
of the law well before That Day In Dallas, or gets hit by a truck,
or the Alien Space Bats scrooch him as the motorcade rolls through
Dealey Plaza.*

Kevin R

* http://rockyandbullwinkle.wikia.com/wiki/Scrooch_Gun

Apologies to Gidney & Cloyd for calling them ASBs.
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