Discussion:
Mutineer's Moon - Weber
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m***@sky.com
2018-05-09 03:56:56 UTC
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I bought this after seeing that somebody here really likes it, despite the fact that I wasn't impressed with the introduction I could see for free at Baen.com. The introduction isn't representative of the rest of the book: it just gives you some background and sets the scene, so that's OK.

The book is basically SF adventure: our hero links up with one faction of a divided group who have technology significantly in advance of Earth's nations, and eventually triumphs. I enjoyed it, but I'm still slightly disappointed, because the audacious and imaginative premise of the book is - to my mind - almost wasted. This is that Earth's moon is a disguised military starship, stranded after an abortive mutiny, and the mutineers (who are Homo Sapiens, admittedly with modifications due to highly advanced medical technology) have been influences behind the scenes of Earth's history for millennia. We are given only brief references to their conspiracies (and nothing that convinces me that such a secret could have been kept for so long). The plot pretty much justifies the mutineer's society being frozen for these millennia, but I would still like to have seen something more of it. There is a secret Antarctic base which is only seen as a backdrop to fight scenes. I'm left with the feeling that there's a great worldbuilding book out there somewhere - and this isn't it. Also, I keep getting flashbacks to Stargate SG-1 - but I don't mind that. (Some action in Colorado, characters who are the reality behind Egyptian Gods, life extension by taking over people's bodies).
Ted Nolan <tednolan>
2018-05-09 04:07:53 UTC
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Post by m***@sky.com
I bought this after seeing that somebody here really likes it, despite
the fact that I wasn't impressed with the introduction I could see for
free at Baen.com. The introduction isn't representative of the rest of
the book: it just gives you some background and sets the scene, so
that's OK.
The book is basically SF adventure: our hero links up with one faction
of a divided group who have technology significantly in advance of
Earth's nations, and eventually triumphs. I enjoyed it, but I'm still
slightly disappointed, because the audacious and imaginative premise of
Some people call this Weber's take on the Perry Rhodan premise,
though I don't know if he has ever commented on that. I liked it,
but not as much as Lynn. To me all the mutineer stuff kind of
slowed things down (It's been a looong time, so I can't recall
specifics there).

For me, the best Weber has always been _On Basilisk Station_. Of course,
I can't go back and re-read it now as the person I was then, and I can't
unknow all the other HH books. I should probably do it anyway sometime
though.
--
------
columbiaclosings.com
What's not in Columbia anymore..
Ninapenda Jibini
2018-05-09 06:07:29 UTC
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Post by m***@sky.com
I bought this after seeing that somebody here really likes it,
despite the fact that I wasn't impressed with the introduction I
could see for free at Baen.com. The introduction isn't
representative of the rest of the book: it just gives you some
background and sets the scene, so that's OK.
The book is basically SF adventure: our hero links up with one
faction of a divided group who have technology significantly in
advance of Earth's nations, and eventually triumphs. I enjoyed
it, but I'm still slightly disappointed, because the audacious
and imaginative premise of the book is - to my mind - almost
wasted. This is that Earth's moon is a disguised military
starship, stranded after an abortive mutiny, and the mutineers
(who are Homo Sapiens, admittedly with modifications due to
highly advanced medical technology) have been influences behind
the scenes of Earth's history for millennia. We are given only
brief references to their conspiracies (and nothing that
convinces me that such a secret could have been kept for so
long). The plot pretty much justifies the mutineer's society
being frozen for these millennia, but I would still like to have
seen something more of it. There is a secret Antarctic base
which is only seen as a backdrop to fight scenes. I'm left with
the feeling that there's a great worldbuilding book out there
somewhere - and this isn't it. Also, I keep getting flashbacks
to Stargate SG-1 - but I don't mind that. (Some action in
Colorado, characters who are the reality behind Egyptian Gods,
life extension by taking over people's bodies).
Just out of curiosity, are you talking about just Mutineer's Moon,
or all three books? There's quite a bit more world (or universe, as
the case may be) building in the othe two.
--
Terry Austin

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.
Bill Gill
2018-05-09 13:31:01 UTC
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Post by Ninapenda Jibini
Post by m***@sky.com
I bought this after seeing that somebody here really likes it,
despite the fact that I wasn't impressed with the introduction I
could see for free at Baen.com. The introduction isn't
representative of the rest of the book: it just gives you some
background and sets the scene, so that's OK.
The book is basically SF adventure: our hero links up with one
faction of a divided group who have technology significantly in
advance of Earth's nations, and eventually triumphs. I enjoyed
it, but I'm still slightly disappointed, because the audacious
and imaginative premise of the book is - to my mind - almost
wasted. This is that Earth's moon is a disguised military
starship, stranded after an abortive mutiny, and the mutineers
(who are Homo Sapiens, admittedly with modifications due to
highly advanced medical technology) have been influences behind
the scenes of Earth's history for millennia. We are given only
brief references to their conspiracies (and nothing that
convinces me that such a secret could have been kept for so
long). The plot pretty much justifies the mutineer's society
being frozen for these millennia, but I would still like to have
seen something more of it. There is a secret Antarctic base
which is only seen as a backdrop to fight scenes. I'm left with
the feeling that there's a great worldbuilding book out there
somewhere - and this isn't it. Also, I keep getting flashbacks
to Stargate SG-1 - but I don't mind that. (Some action in
Colorado, characters who are the reality behind Egyptian Gods,
life extension by taking over people's bodies).
Just out of curiosity, are you talking about just Mutineer's Moon,
or all three books? There's quite a bit more world (or universe, as
the case may be) building in the othe two.
The first 2 of the Moon books were pretty good. The 3rd seemed
to me to be kind of a mashup of several different stories
that he had in mind and couldn't figure out how to make any
of them work. It seemed to me to be mostly a space filler.

Bill
Scott Lurndal
2018-05-09 14:09:47 UTC
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Post by Bill Gill
Post by Ninapenda Jibini
Post by m***@sky.com
I bought this after seeing that somebody here really likes it,
despite the fact that I wasn't impressed with the introduction I
could see for free at Baen.com. The introduction isn't
representative of the rest of the book: it just gives you some
background and sets the scene, so that's OK.
The book is basically SF adventure: our hero links up with one
faction of a divided group who have technology significantly in
advance of Earth's nations, and eventually triumphs. I enjoyed
it, but I'm still slightly disappointed, because the audacious
and imaginative premise of the book is - to my mind - almost
wasted. This is that Earth's moon is a disguised military
starship, stranded after an abortive mutiny, and the mutineers
(who are Homo Sapiens, admittedly with modifications due to
highly advanced medical technology) have been influences behind
the scenes of Earth's history for millennia. We are given only
brief references to their conspiracies (and nothing that
convinces me that such a secret could have been kept for so
long). The plot pretty much justifies the mutineer's society
being frozen for these millennia, but I would still like to have
seen something more of it. There is a secret Antarctic base
which is only seen as a backdrop to fight scenes. I'm left with
the feeling that there's a great worldbuilding book out there
somewhere - and this isn't it. Also, I keep getting flashbacks
to Stargate SG-1 - but I don't mind that. (Some action in
Colorado, characters who are the reality behind Egyptian Gods,
life extension by taking over people's bodies).
Just out of curiosity, are you talking about just Mutineer's Moon,
or all three books? There's quite a bit more world (or universe, as
the case may be) building in the othe two.
The first 2 of the Moon books were pretty good. The 3rd seemed
to me to be kind of a mashup of several different stories
that he had in mind and couldn't figure out how to make any
of them work. It seemed to me to be mostly a space filler.
Yeah. He's done the 'stranded and trek across the world' story
three times now counting the Prince Roger and Safehold books.
David Johnston
2018-05-10 00:23:13 UTC
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Post by Scott Lurndal
Post by Bill Gill
Post by Ninapenda Jibini
Post by m***@sky.com
I bought this after seeing that somebody here really likes it,
despite the fact that I wasn't impressed with the introduction I
could see for free at Baen.com. The introduction isn't
representative of the rest of the book: it just gives you some
background and sets the scene, so that's OK.
The book is basically SF adventure: our hero links up with one
faction of a divided group who have technology significantly in
advance of Earth's nations, and eventually triumphs. I enjoyed
it, but I'm still slightly disappointed, because the audacious
and imaginative premise of the book is - to my mind - almost
wasted. This is that Earth's moon is a disguised military
starship, stranded after an abortive mutiny, and the mutineers
(who are Homo Sapiens, admittedly with modifications due to
highly advanced medical technology) have been influences behind
the scenes of Earth's history for millennia. We are given only
brief references to their conspiracies (and nothing that
convinces me that such a secret could have been kept for so
long). The plot pretty much justifies the mutineer's society
being frozen for these millennia, but I would still like to have
seen something more of it. There is a secret Antarctic base
which is only seen as a backdrop to fight scenes. I'm left with
the feeling that there's a great worldbuilding book out there
somewhere - and this isn't it. Also, I keep getting flashbacks
to Stargate SG-1 - but I don't mind that. (Some action in
Colorado, characters who are the reality behind Egyptian Gods,
life extension by taking over people's bodies).
Just out of curiosity, are you talking about just Mutineer's Moon,
or all three books? There's quite a bit more world (or universe, as
the case may be) building in the othe two.
The first 2 of the Moon books were pretty good. The 3rd seemed
to me to be kind of a mashup of several different stories
that he had in mind and couldn't figure out how to make any
of them work. It seemed to me to be mostly a space filler.
Yeah. He's done the 'stranded and trek across the world' story
three times now counting the Prince Roger and Safehold books.
Safehold is a retread of the concepts of Mutineers Moon. But it doesn't
work for me.
Magewolf
2018-05-09 16:03:23 UTC
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Post by Ninapenda Jibini
Post by m***@sky.com
I bought this after seeing that somebody here really likes it,
despite the fact that I wasn't impressed with the introduction I
could see for free at Baen.com. The introduction isn't
representative of the rest of the book: it just gives you some
background and sets the scene, so that's OK.
The book is basically SF adventure: our hero links up with one
faction of a divided group who have technology significantly in
advance of Earth's nations, and eventually triumphs. I enjoyed
it, but I'm still slightly disappointed, because the audacious
and imaginative premise of the book is - to my mind - almost
wasted. This is that Earth's moon is a disguised military
starship, stranded after an abortive mutiny, and the mutineers
(who are Homo Sapiens, admittedly with modifications due to
highly advanced medical technology) have been influences behind
the scenes of Earth's history for millennia. We are given only
brief references to their conspiracies (and nothing that
convinces me that such a secret could have been kept for so
long). The plot pretty much justifies the mutineer's society
being frozen for these millennia, but I would still like to have
seen something more of it. There is a secret Antarctic base
which is only seen as a backdrop to fight scenes. I'm left with
the feeling that there's a great worldbuilding book out there
somewhere - and this isn't it. Also, I keep getting flashbacks
to Stargate SG-1 - but I don't mind that. (Some action in
Colorado, characters who are the reality behind Egyptian Gods,
life extension by taking over people's bodies).
Just out of curiosity, are you talking about just Mutineer's Moon,
or all three books? There's quite a bit more world (or universe, as
the case may be) building in the othe two.
The second book does have a lot of world building but it might not be
the kind he wants since it changes focus a bit.

The third book was less successful then the first two to me. And I guess
to Weber as well since he keeps rewriting it.
m***@sky.com
2018-05-09 18:17:58 UTC
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Post by Ninapenda Jibini
Post by m***@sky.com
I bought this after seeing that somebody here really likes it,
despite the fact that I wasn't impressed with the introduction I
could see for free at Baen.com. The introduction isn't
representative of the rest of the book: it just gives you some
background and sets the scene, so that's OK.
The book is basically SF adventure: our hero links up with one
faction of a divided group who have technology significantly in
advance of Earth's nations, and eventually triumphs. I enjoyed
it, but I'm still slightly disappointed, because the audacious
and imaginative premise of the book is - to my mind - almost
wasted. This is that Earth's moon is a disguised military
starship, stranded after an abortive mutiny, and the mutineers
(who are Homo Sapiens, admittedly with modifications due to
highly advanced medical technology) have been influences behind
the scenes of Earth's history for millennia. We are given only
brief references to their conspiracies (and nothing that
convinces me that such a secret could have been kept for so
long). The plot pretty much justifies the mutineer's society
being frozen for these millennia, but I would still like to have
seen something more of it. There is a secret Antarctic base
which is only seen as a backdrop to fight scenes. I'm left with
the feeling that there's a great worldbuilding book out there
somewhere - and this isn't it. Also, I keep getting flashbacks
to Stargate SG-1 - but I don't mind that. (Some action in
Colorado, characters who are the reality behind Egyptian Gods,
life extension by taking over people's bodies).
Just out of curiosity, are you talking about just Mutineer's Moon,
or all three books? There's quite a bit more world (or universe, as
the case may be) building in the othe two.
--
Terry Austin
"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek
Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.
I have only read the first book, so that's all I can talk about.
Bill Gill
2018-05-09 13:28:37 UTC
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Post by m***@sky.com
I bought this after seeing that somebody here really likes it, despite the fact that I wasn't impressed with the introduction I could see for free at Baen.com. The introduction isn't representative of the rest of the book: it just gives you some background and sets the scene, so that's OK.
The book is basically SF adventure: our hero links up with one faction of a divided group who have technology significantly in advance of Earth's nations, and eventually triumphs. I enjoyed it, but I'm still slightly disappointed, because the audacious and imaginative premise of the book is - to my mind - almost wasted. This is that Earth's moon is a disguised military starship, stranded after an abortive mutiny, and the mutineers (who are Homo Sapiens, admittedly with modifications due to highly advanced medical technology) have been influences behind the scenes of Earth's history for millennia. We are given only brief references to their conspiracies (and nothing that convinces me that such a secret could have been kept for so long). The plot pretty much justifies the mutineer's society being frozen for these millennia, but I would still like to have seen something more of it. There is a secret Antarctic base which is only seen as a backdrop to fight scenes. I'm left with the feeling that there's a great worldbuilding book out there somewhere - and this isn't it. Also, I keep getting flashbacks to Stargate SG-1 - but I don't mind that. (Some action in Colorado, characters who are the reality behind Egyptian Gods, life extension by taking over people's bodies).
As far as keeping the secret for that long is concerned, well
that is one of those major improbabilities around which most
urban fantasy is structured. There is an old saying 'Three
people can keep a secret, if 2 of them are dead.' That applies
to most of that kind of story. It applies to SF as well as
Fantasy, because there are SF stories that depend on a deeply
kept secret that is known by a lot of people, but somehow there
are no leakers.

"Mutineers Moon" was my introduction to Weber, and I thought he
was a really good writer. He stayed a good writer, but eventually
he got so he couldn't write a simple straight-forward story, he
had to embellish it to the point that, while the writing was good,
the story was ridiculous. His War God books were mostly good,
especially the first two, but the last one was getting to
Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
2018-05-09 15:35:56 UTC
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Post by Bill Gill
Post by m***@sky.com
I bought this after seeing that somebody here really likes it,
despite the fact that I wasn't impressed with the introduction
I could see for free at Baen.com. The introduction isn't
representative of the rest of the book: it just gives you some
background and sets the scene, so that's OK.
The book is basically SF adventure: our hero links up with one
faction of a divided group who have technology significantly in
advance of Earth's nations, and eventually triumphs. I enjoyed
it, but I'm still slightly disappointed, because the audacious
and imaginative premise of the book is - to my mind - almost
wasted. This is that Earth's moon is a disguised military
starship, stranded after an abortive mutiny, and the mutineers
(who are Homo Sapiens, admittedly with modifications due to
highly advanced medical technology) have been influences behind
the scenes of Earth's history for millennia. We are given only
brief references to their conspiracies (and nothing that
convinces me that such a secret could have been kept for so
long). The plot pretty much justifies the mutineer's society
being frozen for these millennia, but I would still like to
have seen something more of it. There is a secret Antarctic
base which is only seen as a backdrop to fight scenes. I'm left
with the feeling that there's a great worldbuilding book out
there somewhere - and this isn't it. Also, I keep getting
flashbacks to Stargate SG-1 - but I don't mind that. (Some
action in Colorado, characters who are the reality behind
Egyptian Gods, life extension by taking over people's bodies).
As far as keeping the secret for that long is concerned, well
that is one of those major improbabilities around which most
urban fantasy is structured. There is an old saying 'Three
people can keep a secret, if 2 of them are dead.' That applies
to most of that kind of story. It applies to SF as well as
Fantasy, because there are SF stories that depend on a deeply
kept secret that is known by a lot of people, but somehow there
are no leakers.
Given the number of "secret conspiracy that actually rules the
world" conspiracy theories floating around, can we really say the
secret *has* been kept?
Post by Bill Gill
"Mutineers Moon" was my introduction to Weber, and I thought he
was a really good writer. He stayed a good writer, but
eventually he got so he couldn't write a simple straight-forward
story, he had to embellish it to the point that, while the
writing was good, the story was ridiculous. His War God books
were mostly good, especially the first two, but the last one was
getting to Attachment decoded: untitled-1.txt
He was good enough that he became so important to Baen that he
couldn't be edited any more.
--
Terry Austin

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.
Kevrob
2018-05-09 16:30:48 UTC
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Post by Bill Gill
There is an old saying 'Three
people can keep a secret, if 2 of them are dead.' That applies
to most of that kind of story. It applies to SF as well as
Fantasy, because there are SF stories that depend on a deeply
kept secret that is known by a lot of people, but somehow there
are no leakers.
Fantasy can cheat with a glamour that keeps people from
spilling a secret, or from being believed if they try to
divulge it. SF can do this with tech, but that's less
believable.

I loved STARGATE's "cover story" TV show-within-a-show,
"Wormhole Extreme." Then there is mind-wiping, a la the
"neuralyzers" in the MEN IN BLACK films and the comic books
they were based upon.

Don't forget the press office of Chicago's Special Unit 2,
that kept busy issuing cover stores for weirdness.

And remember, TINC.

There's no Section Zero, either.

Kevin R
Wolffan
2018-05-09 17:39:17 UTC
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Post by Kevrob
Post by Bill Gill
There is an old saying 'Three
people can keep a secret, if 2 of them are dead.' That applies
to most of that kind of story. It applies to SF as well as
Fantasy, because there are SF stories that depend on a deeply
kept secret that is known by a lot of people, but somehow there
are no leakers.
Fantasy can cheat with a glamour that keeps people from
spilling a secret, or from being believed if they try to
divulge it. SF can do this with tech, but that's less
believable.
I loved STARGATE's "cover story" TV show-within-a-show,
"Wormhole Extreme." Then there is mind-wiping, a la the
"neuralyzers" in the MEN IN BLACK films and the comic books
they were based upon.
Don't forget the press office of Chicago's Special Unit 2,
that kept busy issuing cover stores for weirdness.
And remember, TINC.
There's no Section Zero, either.
Kevin R
One of the (few) cute aspects of Larry Correia’s Monster Hunter books
(basic plot: ‘Crackers shoot stuff, blow stuff up good, shoot more stuff,
then blow more stuff up even gooder’) is the way that the whole monster
thing is utter top super secret, most especially including Special Task Force
Unicorn. Please note two things about Unicorn: first, the initials. Second...
unicorns do not, and I quote, ‘fucking exist’. Then refer back to item
one. Correia does get points for thinking up trailer-park-trash elves and
death-metal-punk orcs, though. Not to mention hood-rat gangsta gnomes. He
gets negative points for trying to have the secret kept by _every single
government in the world_ for literally _hundreds of years_. Exactly how do,
for example, ‘Bullmen’ (‘we ain’t no Greek pansies’) manage to roam
Texas. without anyone not in on the secret knowing? (Question, to be asked
from a nice safe distance: given that the female of the species would be,
ahem, ‘Cowwomen’ or ‘Hiefers' and probably aren’t any more
sweet-tempered than their boyfriends... do they have their mammaries on their
chests or between their legs? Enquiring minds wanna know, just not from too
close...)
m***@sky.com
2018-05-09 18:30:53 UTC
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Post by Wolffan
Post by Kevrob
Post by Bill Gill
There is an old saying 'Three
people can keep a secret, if 2 of them are dead.' That applies
to most of that kind of story. It applies to SF as well as
Fantasy, because there are SF stories that depend on a deeply
kept secret that is known by a lot of people, but somehow there
are no leakers.
Fantasy can cheat with a glamour that keeps people from
spilling a secret, or from being believed if they try to
divulge it. SF can do this with tech, but that's less
believable.
I loved STARGATE's "cover story" TV show-within-a-show,
"Wormhole Extreme." Then there is mind-wiping, a la the
"neuralyzers" in the MEN IN BLACK films and the comic books
they were based upon.
Don't forget the press office of Chicago's Special Unit 2,
that kept busy issuing cover stores for weirdness.
And remember, TINC.
There's no Section Zero, either.
Kevin R
One of the (few) cute aspects of Larry Correia’s Monster Hunter books
(basic plot: ‘Crackers shoot stuff, blow stuff up good, shoot more stuff,
then blow more stuff up even gooder’) is the way that the whole monster
thing is utter top super secret, most especially including Special Task Force
Unicorn. Please note two things about Unicorn: first, the initials. Second...
unicorns do not, and I quote, ‘fucking exist’. Then refer back to item
one. Correia does get points for thinking up trailer-park-trash elves and
death-metal-punk orcs, though. Not to mention hood-rat gangsta gnomes. He
gets negative points for trying to have the secret kept by _every single
government in the world_ for literally _hundreds of years_. Exactly how do,
for example, ‘Bullmen’ (‘we ain’t no Greek pansies’) manage to roam
Texas. without anyone not in on the secret knowing? (Question, to be asked
from a nice safe distance: given that the female of the species would be,
ahem, ‘Cowwomen’ or ‘Hiefers' and probably aren’t any more
sweet-tempered than their boyfriends... do they have their mammaries on their
chests or between their legs? Enquiring minds wanna know, just not from too
close...)
I thought the mainline Monster Hunter books were OK but nothing special (based on the first two). I really like the Monster Hunter Grunge books (read the first two, waiting for the third to go from eArc to ebook). I like Chad/Iron Hand and find them more amusing than the mainline books - amusing enough that I don't take the problem of maintaining the secret in a post-Snowden world seriously. (Prior to Snowden, the breaking of Enigma and Tunny in WWII would be a good example of a secret kept successfully for decades).

FWIW those pictures of classical minotaurs that I can find e.g. at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minotaur seem to show vestigial male nipples as standard on the chest for a human male, so I would expect females to have mammaries on the chest.

PS - Monster Hunter sinners says magic HAS to be kept secret because modern affluence and access to a huge variety of commodities e.g. via Amazon means that widespread knowledge that magic exists would mean huge numbers of amateur magicians and that would create synergistic amounts of havoc (can't remember the details of the synergy but I think there's some there).
Johnny1A
2018-05-12 05:12:14 UTC
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Post by Bill Gill
As far as keeping the secret for that long is concerned, well
that is one of those major improbabilities around which most
urban fantasy is structured. There is an old saying 'Three
people can keep a secret, if 2 of them are dead.' That applies
to most of that kind of story. It applies to SF as well as
Fantasy, because there are SF stories that depend on a deeply
kept secret that is known by a lot of people, but somehow there
are no leakers.
IMHO, Butcher handles that issue a little better in his _Dresden Files_ books than most do. He addresses the question of 'how is the secret kept?' by having the hero note that it really isn't that big a secret. Lot's of people know at least something of the truth, though the general public is semi-ignorant.

People who do find out usually find it safer to keep relatively quiet, because the powers that be don't care if a few people talk, but they will act if somebody starts revealing things on a huge scale. They don't try to keep the secrets hermetically sealed, just relatively quiet.
Lynn McGuire
2018-05-09 22:12:19 UTC
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Post by m***@sky.com
I bought this after seeing that somebody here really likes it, despite the fact that I wasn't impressed with the introduction I could see for free at Baen.com. The introduction isn't representative of the rest of the book: it just gives you some background and sets the scene, so that's OK.
The book is basically SF adventure: our hero links up with one faction of a divided group who have technology significantly in advance of Earth's nations, and eventually triumphs. I enjoyed it, but I'm still slightly disappointed, because the audacious and imaginative premise of the book is - to my mind - almost wasted. This is that Earth's moon is a disguised military starship, stranded after an abortive mutiny, and the mutineers (who are Homo Sapiens, admittedly with modifications due to highly advanced medical technology) have been influences behind the scenes of Earth's history for millennia. We are given only brief references to their conspiracies (and nothing that convinces me that such a secret could have been kept for so long). The plot pretty much justifies the mutineer's society being frozen for these millennia, but I would still like to have seen something more of it. There is a secret Antarctic base which is only seen as a backdrop to fight scenes. I'm left with the feeling that there's a great worldbuilding book out there somewhere - and this isn't it. Also, I keep getting flashbacks to Stargate SG-1 - but I don't mind that. (Some action in Colorado, characters who are the reality behind Egyptian Gods, life extension by taking over people's bodies).
I suspect that you will like the second book in the series as much. The
third book is really ninety degrees out from the first two books.

The extreme extension of the third book is _Safehold_ series. Extreme.
I like it but it does plod at times.
https://www.amazon.com/Off-Armageddon-Reef-Novel
Johnny1A
2018-05-12 05:08:19 UTC
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Post by m***@sky.com
I bought this after seeing that somebody here really likes it, despite the fact that I wasn't impressed with the introduction I could see for free at Baen.com. The introduction isn't representative of the rest of the book: it just gives you some background and sets the scene, so that's OK.
The book is basically SF adventure: our hero links up with one faction of a >divided group who have technology significantly in advance of Earth's nations, >and eventually triumphs. I enjoyed it, but I'm still slightly disappointed, >because the audacious and imaginative premise of the book is - to my mind - almost wasted. This is that Earth's moon is a disguised military starship, stranded after an abortive mutiny, and the mutineers (who are Homo Sapiens, admittedly with modifications due to highly advanced medical technology) have >been influences behind the scenes of Earth's history for millennia.
It's audacious, and the second book (IMHO) is better than the first, but it also suffers from some weaknesses inherent to the concept that strain my WSOD.

For ex, the premise is that Luna is a starship. The _whole thing_. A spherical ship 2000 miles or so in diameter. The problem(s) are that that Weber never really writes _Dahak_ as being that big. We're _told_ that it's that big, yes, but it doesn't come across as being that big.

He tries. Captain MacIntyre's personal quarters contain their own private park measures in acres. They use grav tubes for transport because the key facilities of the ship are hundreds of miles apart. (IIRC the main control room is only a few tens of miles from the captain's quarters. :lol: )

The ship carries 200 smaller combat spaceships each the size of a relatively modern naval battleship or aircraft carrier. Assuming those are useful, why only 200? You could pack over _30,000_ such vessels into _one cubic mile_. The _Dahak_ has a lot of cubic miles...

The original crew complement of _Dahak_ is 250,000. That might sound like a lot, but it isn't, not for a ship the size of the Moon. It's about one person per _16,000 cubic miles_. Think about that. Those 250,000 could wander forever within that ship and probably never encounter each other at random.

If the ship has one person per cubic mile, just one, that would be over 4 billion people. Even a stripped-down, minimalist, bare-bones crew would probably require many tens of millions even to be potentially useful.

The people who built _Dahak_ built millions of ships like it, and even bigger things, and yet they still live and have their society on the surface of Earth-like worlds. That's sort of like having a tribe of Neandertals build the USS _Abraham Lincoln_, and sister ships, but still live in caves and survive by foraging and hunter-gatherer methods.

Like I said, Weber tries, but his imagination was not equal to the task of really writing a 2000-mile-wide ship and the society it implies.
Lynn McGuire
2018-05-14 23:10:52 UTC
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Post by Johnny1A
Post by m***@sky.com
I bought this after seeing that somebody here really likes it, despite the fact that I wasn't impressed with the introduction I could see for free at Baen.com. The introduction isn't representative of the rest of the book: it just gives you some background and sets the scene, so that's OK.
The book is basically SF adventure: our hero links up with one faction of a >divided group who have technology significantly in advance of Earth's nations, >and eventually triumphs. I enjoyed it, but I'm still slightly disappointed, >because the audacious and imaginative premise of the book is - to my mind - almost wasted. This is that Earth's moon is a disguised military starship, stranded after an abortive mutiny, and the mutineers (who are Homo Sapiens, admittedly with modifications due to highly advanced medical technology) have >been influences behind the scenes of Earth's history for millennia.
It's audacious, and the second book (IMHO) is better than the first, but it also suffers from some weaknesses inherent to the concept that strain my WSOD.
For ex, the premise is that Luna is a starship. The _whole thing_. A spherical ship 2000 miles or so in diameter. The problem(s) are that that Weber never really writes _Dahak_ as being that big. We're _told_ that it's that big, yes, but it doesn't come across as being that big.
He tries. Captain MacIntyre's personal quarters contain their own private park measures in acres. They use grav tubes for transport because the key facilities of the ship are hundreds of miles apart. (IIRC the main control room is only a few tens of miles from the captain's quarters. :lol: )
The ship carries 200 smaller combat spaceships each the size of a relatively modern naval battleship or aircraft carrier. Assuming those are useful, why only 200? You could pack over _30,000_ such vessels into _one cubic mile_. The _Dahak_ has a lot of cubic miles...
The original crew complement of _Dahak_ is 250,000. That might sound like a lot, but it isn't, not for a ship the size of the Moon. It's about one person per _16,000 cubic miles_. Think about that. Those 250,000 could wander forever within that ship and probably never encounter each other at random.
If the ship has one person per cubic mile, just one, that would be over 4 billion people. Even a stripped-down, minimalist, bare-bones crew would probably require many tens of millions even to be potentially useful.
The people who built _Dahak_ built millions of ships like it, and even bigger things, and yet they still live and have their society on the surface of Earth-like worlds. That's sort of like having a tribe of Neandertals build the USS _Abraham Lincoln_, and sister ships, but still live in caves and survive by foraging and hunter-gatherer methods.
Like I said, Weber tries, but his imagination was not equal to the task of really writing a 2000-mile-wide ship and the society it implies.
I see Dahak as a thin veneer (10 miles ???) over a small planetoid.
Dahak has a core and a core tap. The size of those are boggling. Maybe
98% ??? of the mass (total SWAG (scientific wild assed guess) that).
Also, the crew size was expected to double in the 50 ? 100 ? year patrol.

Lynn
Scott Lurndal
2018-05-15 13:30:13 UTC
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Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by Johnny1A
If the ship has one person per cubic mile, just one, that would be over 4 billion people. Even a stripped-down, minimalist, bare-bones crew would probably require many tens of millions even to be potentially useful.
The people who built _Dahak_ built millions of ships like it, and even bigger things, and yet they still live and have their society on the surface of Earth-like worlds. That's sort of like having a tribe of Neandertals build the USS _Abraham Lincoln_, and sister ships, but still live in caves and survive by foraging and hunter-gatherer methods.
Like I said, Weber tries, but his imagination was not equal to the task of really writing a 2000-mile-wide ship and the society it implies.
I see Dahak as a thin veneer (10 miles ???) over a small planetoid.
Dahak has a core and a core tap. The size of those are boggling. Maybe
98% ??? of the mass (total SWAG (scientific wild assed guess) that).
Also, the crew size was expected to double in the 50 ? 100 ? year patrol.
The surface area of the moon is aproximately 1.25 million square miles. If
each "floor" was 100 feet high, there would be about 5,000 levels in that
10 mile deep 'veneer'. That's still some 5 billion+ square miles of
living and working space.
Lynn McGuire
2018-05-15 17:50:33 UTC
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Post by Scott Lurndal
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by Johnny1A
If the ship has one person per cubic mile, just one, that would be over 4 billion people. Even a stripped-down, minimalist, bare-bones crew would probably require many tens of millions even to be potentially useful.
The people who built _Dahak_ built millions of ships like it, and even bigger things, and yet they still live and have their society on the surface of Earth-like worlds. That's sort of like having a tribe of Neandertals build the USS _Abraham Lincoln_, and sister ships, but still live in caves and survive by foraging and hunter-gatherer methods.
Like I said, Weber tries, but his imagination was not equal to the task of really writing a 2000-mile-wide ship and the society it implies.
I see Dahak as a thin veneer (10 miles ???) over a small planetoid.
Dahak has a core and a core tap. The size of those are boggling. Maybe
98% ??? of the mass (total SWAG (scientific wild assed guess) that).
Also, the crew size was expected to double in the 50 ? 100 ? year patrol.
The surface area of the moon is aproximately 1.25 million square miles. If
each "floor" was 100 feet high, there would be about 5,000 levels in that
10 mile deep 'veneer'. That's still some 5 billion+ square miles of
living and working space.
Sounds good to me. Dahak is an almost totally automated space ship
after all. And I imagine that the parasite hangers and 163 fusion power
plants take up a little space. I also suspect that Dahak could build
more, many more, parasite space ships if needful as he does carry two
automated manufacturing and assembly space ships.

Lynn
Johnny1A
2018-05-17 04:47:55 UTC
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Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by Scott Lurndal
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by Johnny1A
If the ship has one person per cubic mile, just one, that would be over 4 billion people. Even a stripped-down, minimalist, bare-bones crew would probably require many tens of millions even to be potentially useful.
The people who built _Dahak_ built millions of ships like it, and even bigger things, and yet they still live and have their society on the surface of Earth-like worlds. That's sort of like having a tribe of Neandertals build the USS _Abraham Lincoln_, and sister ships, but still live in caves and survive by foraging and hunter-gatherer methods.
Like I said, Weber tries, but his imagination was not equal to the task of really writing a 2000-mile-wide ship and the society it implies.
I see Dahak as a thin veneer (10 miles ???) over a small planetoid.
Dahak has a core and a core tap. The size of those are boggling. Maybe
98% ??? of the mass (total SWAG (scientific wild assed guess) that).
Also, the crew size was expected to double in the 50 ? 100 ? year patrol.
The surface area of the moon is aproximately 1.25 million square miles. If
each "floor" was 100 feet high, there would be about 5,000 levels in that
10 mile deep 'veneer'. That's still some 5 billion+ square miles of
living and working space.
Sounds good to me. Dahak is an almost totally automated space ship
after all. And I imagine that the parasite hangers and 163 fusion power
plants take up a little space. I also suspect that Dahak could build
more, many more, parasite space ships if needful as he does carry two
automated manufacturing and assembly space ships.
Lynn
Yeah, the core tap and the Enchanach (sp?) drive take up a lot of volume, as do thhe power plants and the weapons and the miles of armor in the outer skin...but it's still a sphere _2000_ miles across.

The build a core tap on Earth, in Antarctica, in the second book. It's big, but not as big as all that. Granting that it might be much smaller than the one in _Dahak_, it still indicates that we're not talking about things _that_ big.

The thing is that the story is 'soft' SF, even by space opera standards. Weber doesn't try all that hard to reconcile the physics and he doesn't try at all to reconcile the sociology or the economics.

For ex, we know _Dahak_ is about as massive as Luna, because it produces the tides. You could assume that artificial gravity is being use to help with that, but it's never mentioned, and it would leave the tides messed up in relatively recent times while the damage from the sabotage was repaired, so I think we can assume that the ship is as massive as the Moon.

(There are references elsewhere in the stories to the natural gravity field these ships make when powered down, it turns walls into floors and so on.)

Supposedly _Dahak_ runs on fusion when running sublight or fighting, and uses theh core tap to go FTL. I shudder to think how much hydrogen you'd have to fuse to give _Dahak_ the accelerations it can use. Actually, we can make an order of magnitude WAG on that. For _Dahak_ to accelerate at 1G for one hour, which is can certainly do, would require that _Dahak_ 'burn' over 70 trillion tons of hydrogen and use the resulting energy with perfect efficiency, assuming he can burn protium. That's if I didn't slip a digit.

So granted, a lot of the interior might be fuel tank. :lol:

The problem is that the concept itself is only Cool if you're willing not to think about it too hard. If you do it suddenly gets silly.
Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)
2018-05-16 22:11:56 UTC
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Post by Scott Lurndal
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by Johnny1A
If the ship has one person per cubic mile, just one, that would be over 4 billion people. Even a stripped-down, minimalist, bare-bones crew would probably require many tens of millions even to be potentially useful.
The people who built _Dahak_ built millions of ships like it, and even bigger things, and yet they still live and have their society on the surface of Earth-like worlds. That's sort of like having a tribe of Neandertals build the USS _Abraham Lincoln_, and sister ships, but still live in caves and survive by foraging and hunter-gatherer methods.
Like I said, Weber tries, but his imagination was not equal to the task of really writing a 2000-mile-wide ship and the society it implies.
I see Dahak as a thin veneer (10 miles ???) over a small planetoid.
Dahak has a core and a core tap. The size of those are boggling. Maybe
98% ??? of the mass (total SWAG (scientific wild assed guess) that).
Also, the crew size was expected to double in the 50 ? 100 ? year patrol.
The surface area of the moon is aproximately 1.25 million square miles. If
each "floor" was 100 feet high, there would be about 5,000 levels in that
10 mile deep 'veneer'. That's still some 5 billion+ square miles of
living and working space.
"Scale" is always a challenge with these things. I have to handle this
with The Arena all the time.

Sometimes you just go with human perceptions because, really, do you
want to deal with ten quadrillion crewmembers in your solar-system sized
ship?
--
Sea Wasp
/^\
;;;
Website: http://www.grandcentralarena.com Blog:
http://seawasp.dreamwidth.org
Dimensional Traveler
2018-05-16 22:33:29 UTC
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Post by Scott Lurndal
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by Johnny1A
If the ship has one person per cubic mile, just one, that would be
over 4 billion people.  Even a stripped-down, minimalist, bare-bones
crew would probably require many tens of millions even to be
potentially useful.
The people who built _Dahak_ built millions of ships like it, and
even bigger things, and yet they still live and have their society
on the surface of Earth-like worlds.  That's sort of like having a
tribe of Neandertals build the USS _Abraham Lincoln_, and sister
ships, but still live in caves and survive by foraging and
hunter-gatherer methods.
Like I said, Weber tries, but his imagination was not equal to the
task of really writing a 2000-mile-wide ship and the society it
implies.
I see Dahak as a thin veneer (10 miles ???) over a small planetoid.
Dahak has a core and a core tap.  The size of those are boggling.  Maybe
98% ??? of the mass (total SWAG (scientific wild assed guess) that).
Also, the crew size was expected to double in the 50 ? 100 ? year patrol.
The surface area of the moon is aproximately 1.25 million square
miles.  If
each "floor" was 100 feet high, there would be about 5,000 levels in that
10 mile deep 'veneer'.   That's still some 5 billion+ square miles of
living and working space.
    "Scale" is always a challenge with these things. I have to handle
this with The Arena all the time.
    Sometimes you just go with human perceptions because, really, do
you want to deal with ten quadrillion crewmembers in your solar-system
sized ship?
I think you mean "Mobile Dyson Sphere"....
--
Inquiring minds want to know while minds with a self-preservation
instinct are running screaming.
Lynn McGuire
2018-05-16 22:37:37 UTC
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Post by Dimensional Traveler
Post by Scott Lurndal
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by Johnny1A
If the ship has one person per cubic mile, just one, that would be
over 4 billion people.  Even a stripped-down, minimalist,
bare-bones crew would probably require many tens of millions even
to be potentially useful.
The people who built _Dahak_ built millions of ships like it, and
even bigger things, and yet they still live and have their society
on the surface of Earth-like worlds.  That's sort of like having a
tribe of Neandertals build the USS _Abraham Lincoln_, and sister
ships, but still live in caves and survive by foraging and
hunter-gatherer methods.
Like I said, Weber tries, but his imagination was not equal to the
task of really writing a 2000-mile-wide ship and the society it
implies.
I see Dahak as a thin veneer (10 miles ???) over a small planetoid.
Dahak has a core and a core tap.  The size of those are boggling.
Maybe
98% ??? of the mass (total SWAG (scientific wild assed guess) that).
Also, the crew size was expected to double in the 50 ? 100 ? year patrol.
The surface area of the moon is aproximately 1.25 million square
miles.  If
each "floor" was 100 feet high, there would be about 5,000 levels in that
10 mile deep 'veneer'.   That's still some 5 billion+ square miles of
living and working space.
     "Scale" is always a challenge with these things. I have to handle
this with The Arena all the time.
     Sometimes you just go with human perceptions because, really, do
you want to deal with ten quadrillion crewmembers in your solar-system
sized ship?
I think you mean "Mobile Dyson Sphere"....
OK, that just sounds cool. Especially moving the star at the center
would be very challenging.

Lynn
Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
2018-05-16 22:54:16 UTC
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Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by Dimensional Traveler
Post by Scott Lurndal
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by Johnny1A
If the ship has one person per cubic mile, just one, that
would be over 4 billion people.  Even a stripped-down,
minimalist, bare-bones crew would probably require many
tens of millions even to be potentially useful.
The people who built _Dahak_ built millions of ships like
it, and even bigger things, and yet they still live and
have their society on the surface of Earth-like worlds. 
That's sort of like having a tribe of Neandertals build the
USS _Abraham Lincoln_, and sister ships, but still live in
caves and survive by foraging and hunter-gatherer methods.
Like I said, Weber tries, but his imagination was not equal
to the task of really writing a 2000-mile-wide ship and the
society it implies.
I see Dahak as a thin veneer (10 miles ???) over a small
planetoid. Dahak has a core and a core tap.  The size of
those are boggling. Maybe
98% ??? of the mass (total SWAG (scientific wild assed
guess) that). Also, the crew size was expected to double in
the 50 ? 100 ? year patrol.
The surface area of the moon is aproximately 1.25 million
square miles.  If
each "floor" was 100 feet high, there would be about 5,000
levels in that
10 mile deep 'veneer'.   That's still some 5 billion+ square
miles of living and working space.
     "Scale" is always a challenge with these things. I have
to handle this with The Arena all the time.
     Sometimes you just go with human perceptions because,
really, do you want to deal with ten quadrillion crewmembers
in your solar-system sized ship?
I think you mean "Mobile Dyson Sphere"....
OK, that just sounds cool. Especially moving the star at the
center would be very challenging.
I would recommend to you _Bowl of Heaven_ and _Shipstar_ by Gregory
Benford and Larry Niven, which is exactly that. (Technically, it's
only half a Dyson sphere, but it uses magnetic fields to control a
huge continuous flare out the side of the star, propelling it
through interstellar space, with the star's gravity dragging the
half-sphere along.) Ringworld was BDO - Big, Dumb Object. Shipstar
is a BSO - Big, Smart Object. (The builders are still around, and
still in charge.)

Not, perhaps, the best work from either author, but not bad.
--
Terry Austin

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.
Dimensional Traveler
2018-05-17 00:31:47 UTC
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Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by Dimensional Traveler
Post by Scott Lurndal
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by Johnny1A
If the ship has one person per cubic mile, just one, that
would be over 4 billion people.  Even a stripped-down,
minimalist, bare-bones crew would probably require many
tens of millions even to be potentially useful.
The people who built _Dahak_ built millions of ships like
it, and even bigger things, and yet they still live and
have their society on the surface of Earth-like worlds.
That's sort of like having a tribe of Neandertals build the
USS _Abraham Lincoln_, and sister ships, but still live in
caves and survive by foraging and hunter-gatherer methods.
Like I said, Weber tries, but his imagination was not equal
to the task of really writing a 2000-mile-wide ship and the
society it implies.
I see Dahak as a thin veneer (10 miles ???) over a small
planetoid. Dahak has a core and a core tap.  The size of
those are boggling. Maybe
98% ??? of the mass (total SWAG (scientific wild assed
guess) that). Also, the crew size was expected to double in
the 50 ? 100 ? year patrol.
The surface area of the moon is aproximately 1.25 million
square miles.  If
each "floor" was 100 feet high, there would be about 5,000
levels in that
10 mile deep 'veneer'.   That's still some 5 billion+ square
miles of living and working space.
     "Scale" is always a challenge with these things. I have
to handle this with The Arena all the time.
     Sometimes you just go with human perceptions because,
really, do you want to deal with ten quadrillion crewmembers
in your solar-system sized ship?
I think you mean "Mobile Dyson Sphere"....
OK, that just sounds cool. Especially moving the star at the
center would be very challenging.
I would recommend to you _Bowl of Heaven_ and _Shipstar_ by Gregory
Benford and Larry Niven, which is exactly that. (Technically, it's
only half a Dyson sphere, but it uses magnetic fields to control a
huge continuous flare out the side of the star, propelling it
through interstellar space, with the star's gravity dragging the
half-sphere along.) Ringworld was BDO - Big, Dumb Object. Shipstar
is a BSO - Big, Smart Object. (The builders are still around, and
still in charge.)
But perhaps not who you thought they were. ;)
--
Inquiring minds want to know while minds with a self-preservation
instinct are running screaming.
Ninapenda Jibini
2018-05-17 02:19:08 UTC
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Post by Dimensional Traveler
Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by Dimensional Traveler
Post by Scott Lurndal
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by Johnny1A
If the ship has one person per cubic mile, just one, that
would be over 4 billion people.  Even a stripped-down,
minimalist, bare-bones crew would probably require many
tens of millions even to be potentially useful.
The people who built _Dahak_ built millions of ships like
it, and even bigger things, and yet they still live and
have their society on the surface of Earth-like worlds.
That's sort of like having a tribe of Neandertals build
the USS _Abraham Lincoln_, and sister ships, but still
live in caves and survive by foraging and hunter-gatherer
methods.
Like I said, Weber tries, but his imagination was not
equal to the task of really writing a 2000-mile-wide ship
and the society it implies.
I see Dahak as a thin veneer (10 miles ???) over a small
planetoid. Dahak has a core and a core tap.  The size of
those are boggling. Maybe
98% ??? of the mass (total SWAG (scientific wild assed
guess) that). Also, the crew size was expected to double
in the 50 ? 100 ? year patrol.
The surface area of the moon is aproximately 1.25 million
square miles.  If
each "floor" was 100 feet high, there would be about 5,000 levels in that
10 mile deep 'veneer'.   That's still some 5 billion+
square miles of living and working space.
     "Scale" is always a challenge with these things.
I have
to handle this with The Arena all the time.
     Sometimes you just go with human perceptions
because,
really, do you want to deal with ten quadrillion crewmembers
in your solar-system sized ship?
I think you mean "Mobile Dyson Sphere"....
OK, that just sounds cool. Especially moving the star at the
center would be very challenging.
I would recommend to you _Bowl of Heaven_ and _Shipstar_ by
Gregory Benford and Larry Niven, which is exactly that.
(Technically, it's only half a Dyson sphere, but it uses
magnetic fields to control a huge continuous flare out the side
of the star, propelling it through interstellar space, with the
star's gravity dragging the half-sphere along.) Ringworld was
BDO - Big, Dumb Object. Shipstar is a BSO - Big, Smart Object.
(The builders are still around, and still in charge.)
But perhaps not who you thought they were. ;)
Wouldn't want to be *too* obvious, now would we?
--
Terry Austin

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.
Dimensional Traveler
2018-05-17 03:55:55 UTC
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Post by Ninapenda Jibini
Post by Dimensional Traveler
Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by Dimensional Traveler
Post by Scott Lurndal
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by Johnny1A
If the ship has one person per cubic mile, just one, that
would be over 4 billion people.  Even a stripped-down,
minimalist, bare-bones crew would probably require many
tens of millions even to be potentially useful.
The people who built _Dahak_ built millions of ships like
it, and even bigger things, and yet they still live and
have their society on the surface of Earth-like worlds.
That's sort of like having a tribe of Neandertals build
the USS _Abraham Lincoln_, and sister ships, but still
live in caves and survive by foraging and hunter-gatherer
methods.
Like I said, Weber tries, but his imagination was not
equal to the task of really writing a 2000-mile-wide ship
and the society it implies.
I see Dahak as a thin veneer (10 miles ???) over a small
planetoid. Dahak has a core and a core tap.  The size of
those are boggling. Maybe
98% ??? of the mass (total SWAG (scientific wild assed
guess) that). Also, the crew size was expected to double
in the 50 ? 100 ? year patrol.
The surface area of the moon is aproximately 1.25 million
square miles.  If
each "floor" was 100 feet high, there would be about 5,000 levels in that
10 mile deep 'veneer'.   That's still some 5 billion+
square miles of living and working space.
     "Scale" is always a challenge with these things.
I have
to handle this with The Arena all the time.
     Sometimes you just go with human perceptions
because,
really, do you want to deal with ten quadrillion crewmembers
in your solar-system sized ship?
I think you mean "Mobile Dyson Sphere"....
OK, that just sounds cool. Especially moving the star at the
center would be very challenging.
I would recommend to you _Bowl of Heaven_ and _Shipstar_ by
Gregory Benford and Larry Niven, which is exactly that.
(Technically, it's only half a Dyson sphere, but it uses
magnetic fields to control a huge continuous flare out the side
of the star, propelling it through interstellar space, with the
star's gravity dragging the half-sphere along.) Ringworld was
BDO - Big, Dumb Object. Shipstar is a BSO - Big, Smart Object.
(The builders are still around, and still in charge.)
But perhaps not who you thought they were. ;)
Wouldn't want to be *too* obvious, now would we?
But sometimes being blatantly obvious is the best way to keep them from
knowing!
--
Inquiring minds want to know while minds with a self-preservation
instinct are running screaming.
Ninapenda Jibini
2018-05-17 18:31:18 UTC
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Post by Ninapenda Jibini
Post by Dimensional Traveler
Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by Dimensional Traveler
Post by Scott Lurndal
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by Johnny1A
If the ship has one person per cubic mile, just one,
that would be over 4 billion people.  Even a
stripped-down, minimalist, bare-bones crew would
probably require many tens of millions even to be
potentially useful.
The people who built _Dahak_ built millions of ships
like it, and even bigger things, and yet they still
live and have their society on the surface of
Earth-like worlds. That's sort of like having a tribe
of Neandertals build the USS _Abraham Lincoln_, and
sister ships, but still live in caves and survive by
foraging and hunter-gatherer methods.
Like I said, Weber tries, but his imagination was not
equal to the task of really writing a 2000-mile-wide
ship and the society it implies.
I see Dahak as a thin veneer (10 miles ???) over a small
planetoid. Dahak has a core and a core tap.  The size
of those are boggling. Maybe
98% ??? of the mass (total SWAG (scientific wild assed
guess) that). Also, the crew size was expected to double
in the 50 ? 100 ? year patrol.
The surface area of the moon is aproximately 1.25 million
square miles.  If
each "floor" was 100 feet high, there would be about
5,000 levels in that
10 mile deep 'veneer'.   That's still some 5
billion+ square miles of living and working space.
     "Scale" is always a challenge with
these things. I have
to handle this with The Arena all the time.
     Sometimes you just go with human
perceptions because,
really, do you want to deal with ten quadrillion
crewmembers in your solar-system sized ship?
I think you mean "Mobile Dyson Sphere"....
OK, that just sounds cool. Especially moving the star at
the center would be very challenging.
I would recommend to you _Bowl of Heaven_ and _Shipstar_ by
Gregory Benford and Larry Niven, which is exactly that.
(Technically, it's only half a Dyson sphere, but it uses
magnetic fields to control a huge continuous flare out the
side of the star, propelling it through interstellar space,
with the star's gravity dragging the half-sphere along.)
Ringworld was BDO - Big, Dumb Object. Shipstar is a BSO -
Big, Smart Object. (The builders are still around, and still
in charge.)
But perhaps not who you thought they were. ;)
Wouldn't want to be *too* obvious, now would we?
But sometimes being blatantly obvious is the best way to keep
them from knowing!
The Big Lie, yeah. But the best lie is one that is absolutely true
in every respect, but not believed.
--
Terry Austin

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.
Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)
2018-05-18 01:19:45 UTC
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Post by Dimensional Traveler
Post by Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)
Post by Scott Lurndal
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by Johnny1A
If the ship has one person per cubic mile, just one, that would be
over 4 billion people. Even a stripped-down, minimalist,
bare-bones crew would probably require many tens of millions even
to be potentially useful.
The people who built _Dahak_ built millions of ships like it, and
even bigger things, and yet they still live and have their society
on the surface of Earth-like worlds. That's sort of like having a
tribe of Neandertals build the USS _Abraham Lincoln_, and sister
ships, but still live in caves and survive by foraging and
hunter-gatherer methods.
Like I said, Weber tries, but his imagination was not equal to the
task of really writing a 2000-mile-wide ship and the society it
implies.
I see Dahak as a thin veneer (10 miles ???) over a small planetoid.
Dahak has a core and a core tap. The size of those are boggling.
Maybe
98% ??? of the mass (total SWAG (scientific wild assed guess) that).
Also, the crew size was expected to double in the 50 ? 100 ? year patrol.
The surface area of the moon is aproximately 1.25 million square miles. If
each "floor" was 100 feet high, there would be about 5,000 levels in that
10 mile deep 'veneer'. That's still some 5 billion+ square miles of
living and working space.
"Scale" is always a challenge with these things. I have to handle
this with The Arena all the time.
Sometimes you just go with human perceptions because, really, do
you want to deal with ten quadrillion crewmembers in your solar-system
sized ship?
I think you mean "Mobile Dyson Sphere"....
"Dyson Sphere" is a pedestrian concept. I mean SHIP.
--
Sea Wasp
/^\
;;;
Website: http://www.grandcentralarena.com Blog:
http://seawasp.dreamwidth.org
Dimensional Traveler
2018-05-18 01:42:01 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Dimensional Traveler
Post by Scott Lurndal
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by Johnny1A
If the ship has one person per cubic mile, just one, that would be
over 4 billion people.  Even a stripped-down, minimalist,
bare-bones crew would probably require many tens of millions even
to be potentially useful.
The people who built _Dahak_ built millions of ships like it, and
even bigger things, and yet they still live and have their society
on the surface of Earth-like worlds.  That's sort of like having a
tribe of Neandertals build the USS _Abraham Lincoln_, and sister
ships, but still live in caves and survive by foraging and
hunter-gatherer methods.
Like I said, Weber tries, but his imagination was not equal to the
task of really writing a 2000-mile-wide ship and the society it
implies.
I see Dahak as a thin veneer (10 miles ???) over a small planetoid.
Dahak has a core and a core tap.  The size of those are boggling.
Maybe
98% ??? of the mass (total SWAG (scientific wild assed guess) that).
Also, the crew size was expected to double in the 50 ? 100 ? year patrol.
The surface area of the moon is aproximately 1.25 million square
miles.  If
each "floor" was 100 feet high, there would be about 5,000 levels in that
10 mile deep 'veneer'.   That's still some 5 billion+ square miles of
living and working space.
     "Scale" is always a challenge with these things. I have to handle
this with The Arena all the time.
     Sometimes you just go with human perceptions because, really, do
you want to deal with ten quadrillion crewmembers in your solar-system
sized ship?
I think you mean "Mobile Dyson Sphere"....
    "Dyson Sphere" is a pedestrian concept. I mean SHIP.
:P
--
Inquiring minds want to know while minds with a self-preservation
instinct are running screaming.
Lynn McGuire
2018-05-18 18:53:07 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Dimensional Traveler
Post by Scott Lurndal
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by Johnny1A
If the ship has one person per cubic mile, just one, that would be
over 4 billion people.  Even a stripped-down, minimalist,
bare-bones crew would probably require many tens of millions even
to be potentially useful.
The people who built _Dahak_ built millions of ships like it, and
even bigger things, and yet they still live and have their society
on the surface of Earth-like worlds.  That's sort of like having a
tribe of Neandertals build the USS _Abraham Lincoln_, and sister
ships, but still live in caves and survive by foraging and
hunter-gatherer methods.
Like I said, Weber tries, but his imagination was not equal to the
task of really writing a 2000-mile-wide ship and the society it
implies.
I see Dahak as a thin veneer (10 miles ???) over a small planetoid.
Dahak has a core and a core tap.  The size of those are boggling.
Maybe
98% ??? of the mass (total SWAG (scientific wild assed guess) that).
Also, the crew size was expected to double in the 50 ? 100 ? year patrol.
The surface area of the moon is aproximately 1.25 million square
miles.  If
each "floor" was 100 feet high, there would be about 5,000 levels in that
10 mile deep 'veneer'.   That's still some 5 billion+ square miles of
living and working space.
     "Scale" is always a challenge with these things. I have to handle
this with The Arena all the time.
     Sometimes you just go with human perceptions because, really, do
you want to deal with ten quadrillion crewmembers in your solar-system
sized ship?
I think you mean "Mobile Dyson Sphere"....
    "Dyson Sphere" is a pedestrian concept. I mean SHIP.
A mobile Dyson sphere would not be a ship ?

BTW, I don't want to deal with any crewmembers. People are weird ...

Lynn
Dimensional Traveler
2018-05-18 18:59:55 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by Dimensional Traveler
Post by Scott Lurndal
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by Johnny1A
If the ship has one person per cubic mile, just one, that would be
over 4 billion people.  Even a stripped-down, minimalist,
bare-bones crew would probably require many tens of millions even
to be potentially useful.
The people who built _Dahak_ built millions of ships like it, and
even bigger things, and yet they still live and have their society
on the surface of Earth-like worlds.  That's sort of like having a
tribe of Neandertals build the USS _Abraham Lincoln_, and sister
ships, but still live in caves and survive by foraging and
hunter-gatherer methods.
Like I said, Weber tries, but his imagination was not equal to the
task of really writing a 2000-mile-wide ship and the society it
implies.
I see Dahak as a thin veneer (10 miles ???) over a small planetoid.
Dahak has a core and a core tap.  The size of those are boggling.
Maybe
98% ??? of the mass (total SWAG (scientific wild assed guess) that).
Also, the crew size was expected to double in the 50 ? 100 ? year patrol.
The surface area of the moon is aproximately 1.25 million square
miles.  If
each "floor" was 100 feet high, there would be about 5,000 levels in that
10 mile deep 'veneer'.   That's still some 5 billion+ square miles of
living and working space.
     "Scale" is always a challenge with these things. I have to handle
this with The Arena all the time.
     Sometimes you just go with human perceptions because, really, do
you want to deal with ten quadrillion crewmembers in your solar-system
sized ship?
I think you mean "Mobile Dyson Sphere"....
     "Dyson Sphere" is a pedestrian concept. I mean SHIP.
A mobile Dyson sphere would not be a ship ?
BTW, I don't want to deal with any crewmembers.  People are weird ...
So you want a MDS all to yourself!
--
Inquiring minds want to know while minds with a self-preservation
instinct are running screaming.
Kevrob
2018-05-18 19:26:16 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Dimensional Traveler
Post by Lynn McGuire
A mobile Dyson sphere would not be a ship ?
BTW, I don't want to deal with any crewmembers.  People are weird ...
So you want a MDS all to yourself!
You'll need a lot of LMcG LMDs!

Kevin R
Lynn McGuire
2018-05-19 23:55:58 UTC
Reply
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Raw Message
Post by Dimensional Traveler
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by Dimensional Traveler
Post by Scott Lurndal
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by Johnny1A
If the ship has one person per cubic mile, just one, that would be
over 4 billion people.  Even a stripped-down, minimalist,
bare-bones crew would probably require many tens of millions even
to be potentially useful.
The people who built _Dahak_ built millions of ships like it, and
even bigger things, and yet they still live and have their society
on the surface of Earth-like worlds.  That's sort of like having a
tribe of Neandertals build the USS _Abraham Lincoln_, and sister
ships, but still live in caves and survive by foraging and
hunter-gatherer methods.
Like I said, Weber tries, but his imagination was not equal to the
task of really writing a 2000-mile-wide ship and the society it
implies.
I see Dahak as a thin veneer (10 miles ???) over a small planetoid.
Dahak has a core and a core tap.  The size of those are boggling.
Maybe
98% ??? of the mass (total SWAG (scientific wild assed guess) that).
Also, the crew size was expected to double in the 50 ? 100 ? year patrol.
The surface area of the moon is aproximately 1.25 million square
miles.  If
each "floor" was 100 feet high, there would be about 5,000 levels in that
10 mile deep 'veneer'.   That's still some 5 billion+ square miles of
living and working space.
     "Scale" is always a challenge with these things. I have to handle
this with The Arena all the time.
     Sometimes you just go with human perceptions because, really, do
you want to deal with ten quadrillion crewmembers in your solar-system
sized ship?
I think you mean "Mobile Dyson Sphere"....
     "Dyson Sphere" is a pedestrian concept. I mean SHIP.
A mobile Dyson sphere would not be a ship ?
BTW, I don't want to deal with any crewmembers.  People are weird ...
So you want a MDS all to yourself!
Nah, just very few crewmembers that all stay miles away from me. Read
John Varley's excellent generation ship novel to find out why (it is
nukmber 4 of a series though):
https://www.amazon.com/Dark-Lightning-Thunder-John-Varley/dp/042527408X/

Lynn
Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)
2018-05-19 23:51:23 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)
Post by Dimensional Traveler
Post by Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)
Post by Scott Lurndal
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by Johnny1A
If the ship has one person per cubic mile, just one, that would be
over 4 billion people. Even a stripped-down, minimalist,
bare-bones crew would probably require many tens of millions even
to be potentially useful.
The people who built _Dahak_ built millions of ships like it, and
even bigger things, and yet they still live and have their society
on the surface of Earth-like worlds. That's sort of like having a
tribe of Neandertals build the USS _Abraham Lincoln_, and sister
ships, but still live in caves and survive by foraging and
hunter-gatherer methods.
Like I said, Weber tries, but his imagination was not equal to the
task of really writing a 2000-mile-wide ship and the society it
implies.
I see Dahak as a thin veneer (10 miles ???) over a small planetoid.
Dahak has a core and a core tap. The size of those are boggling.
Maybe
98% ??? of the mass (total SWAG (scientific wild assed guess) that).
Also, the crew size was expected to double in the 50 ? 100 ? year patrol.
The surface area of the moon is aproximately 1.25 million square miles. If
each "floor" was 100 feet high, there would be about 5,000 levels in that
10 mile deep 'veneer'. That's still some 5 billion+ square miles of
living and working space.
"Scale" is always a challenge with these things. I have to handle
this with The Arena all the time.
Sometimes you just go with human perceptions because, really, do
you want to deal with ten quadrillion crewmembers in your solar-system
sized ship?
I think you mean "Mobile Dyson Sphere"....
"Dyson Sphere" is a pedestrian concept. I mean SHIP.
A mobile Dyson sphere would not be a ship ?
A very clumsy one, terribly designed. Wasting vast amounts of space
where you could have more decks of power generators ripping energy from
the very fabric of spacetime, of vast weaponry, etc.

A ship doesn't have 99.9% of its volume be empty space and have a mere
star drifting in the center.
--
Sea Wasp
/^\
;;;
Website: http://www.grandcentralarena.com Blog:
http://seawasp.dreamwidth.org
Lynn McGuire
2018-05-21 19:08:43 UTC
Reply
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Raw Message
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by Dimensional Traveler
Post by Scott Lurndal
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by Johnny1A
If the ship has one person per cubic mile, just one, that would be
over 4 billion people.  Even a stripped-down, minimalist,
bare-bones crew would probably require many tens of millions even
to be potentially useful.
The people who built _Dahak_ built millions of ships like it, and
even bigger things, and yet they still live and have their society
on the surface of Earth-like worlds.  That's sort of like having a
tribe of Neandertals build the USS _Abraham Lincoln_, and sister
ships, but still live in caves and survive by foraging and
hunter-gatherer methods.
Like I said, Weber tries, but his imagination was not equal to the
task of really writing a 2000-mile-wide ship and the society it
implies.
I see Dahak as a thin veneer (10 miles ???) over a small planetoid.
Dahak has a core and a core tap.  The size of those are boggling.
Maybe
98% ??? of the mass (total SWAG (scientific wild assed guess) that).
Also, the crew size was expected to double in the 50 ? 100 ? year patrol.
The surface area of the moon is aproximately 1.25 million square
miles.  If
each "floor" was 100 feet high, there would be about 5,000 levels in that
10 mile deep 'veneer'.   That's still some 5 billion+ square miles of
living and working space.
     "Scale" is always a challenge with these things. I have to handle
this with The Arena all the time.
     Sometimes you just go with human perceptions because, really, do
you want to deal with ten quadrillion crewmembers in your solar-system
sized ship?
I think you mean "Mobile Dyson Sphere"....
     "Dyson Sphere" is a pedestrian concept. I mean SHIP.
A mobile Dyson sphere would not be a ship ?
    A very clumsy one, terribly designed. Wasting vast amounts of space
where you could have more decks of power generators ripping energy from
the very fabric of spacetime, of vast weaponry, etc.
    A ship doesn't have 99.9% of its volume be empty space and have a
mere star drifting in the center.
Wait, is this the fusion power source that we have been promised for
decades ?

Lynn

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