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OT - For most of history, humans got smarter. That's now reversing.
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a425couple
2018-06-20 17:25:15 UTC
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http://bigthink.com/brandon-weber/every-10-years-humans-got-smarter-thats-now-reversing

For most of history, humans got smarter. That's now reversing.
June 14, 2018 by BRANDON A. WEBER
Article Image
The Flynn effect appears to be in retrograde. (Credit: Shutterstock/Big
Think)
There's a new study out of Norway that indicates our—well, technically,
their—IQs are shrinking, to the tune of about seven IQ points per
generation.

Scientists from Norway's Ragnar Frisch Centre for Economic Research
analyzed 730,000 IQ tests given to Norwegian men before compulsory
military service from 1970 to 2009, and this is their conclusion.


If the trend continues—indeed, if it's even real—that means about 10
generations from now, we'll see a slow decline that actually means IQs
at the top end will drop from >130 ("Very Superior")," to <69
("Extremely Low"). Kinda terrifying, isn't it?


It's a reversal of what's known as the Flynn effect, named after the
psychologist who first noticed that IQs increased in at least the first
part of the 20th century.

There are a host of potential explanations that are still being
explored, all the way from environmental problems and diet to lack of
exercise and staring at screens.

But one that actually seems a more genuine culprit is this: IQ tests are
designed to rely more upon rote memorization whereas schools and even
electronic devices used by students rely on the ability to find things
via Google and other means, which may indicate there is no real change
in intelligence but rather in how younger people learn these days.

However, the scientists Bernt Bratsberg and Ole Rogeberg have written a
paper making the strong case that the decrease is environmental (and one
of them actually talks about the IQ test possibility).
Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
2018-06-20 21:40:47 UTC
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The only thing an IQ test measures is the ability to take an IQ test.
--
Terry Austin

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.
Dorothy J Heydt
2018-06-20 21:55:12 UTC
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Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
The only thing an IQ test measures is the ability to take an IQ test.
Quite so.

Although ability to take an IQ test has *some*, though not
one-to-one, correspondence, with ability to do well in school.

I like to compare intelligence to the volumetric content of a
glass so transparent that you can't see it unless there's
something in it. Fill the glass up; when it won't hold any more,
you know how large it is.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Dimensional Traveler
2018-06-20 22:28:59 UTC
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Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
The only thing an IQ test measures is the ability to take an IQ test.
Quite so.
Although ability to take an IQ test has *some*, though not
one-to-one, correspondence, with ability to do well in school.
Which has little correlation with the ability to do well in life.
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
I like to compare intelligence to the volumetric content of a
glass so transparent that you can't see it unless there's
something in it. Fill the glass up; when it won't hold any more,
you know how large it is.
Too many people fill it up with something alcoholic.
--
Inquiring minds want to know while minds with a self-preservation
instinct are running screaming.
Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
2018-06-20 22:54:15 UTC
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Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
The only thing an IQ test measures is the ability to take an IQ test.
Quite so.
Although ability to take an IQ test has *some*, though not
one-to-one, correspondence, with ability to do well in school.
Depends on the school. And many other factors.
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
I like to compare intelligence to the volumetric content of a
glass so transparent that you can't see it unless there's
something in it. Fill the glass up; when it won't hold any
more, you know how large it is.
Those who study intelligence scientifically now talk about there
being many different kinds of intelligence, many of which are
completely independent of each other. One can be, for instance, very
smart at dealing with people, but unable to navigate to the grocery
store down the street without a guide.
--
Terry Austin

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.
John Halpenny
2018-06-20 22:21:32 UTC
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Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
The only thing an IQ test measures is the ability to take an IQ test.
I don't think that an IQ test is a great measure of your worth as a person, or that declining scores are a sign of the end of the world.

Having said that:

For centuries, intelligent, healthy and good-looking people have sought out other intelligent, healthy and good-looking people with the goal of raising a family with perhaps five or ten intelligent, healthy and good-looking kids. More recently, large families have gone out of style and only the "less favoured" are left to produce a significant number of children. Discuss possible outcomes of this?

John
Dimensional Traveler
2018-06-20 22:29:55 UTC
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Post by John Halpenny
Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
The only thing an IQ test measures is the ability to take an IQ test.
I don't think that an IQ test is a great measure of your worth as a person, or that declining scores are a sign of the end of the world.
For centuries, intelligent, healthy and good-looking people have sought out other intelligent, healthy and good-looking people with the goal of raising a family with perhaps five or ten intelligent, healthy and good-looking kids. More recently, large families have gone out of style and only the "less favoured" are left to produce a significant number of children. Discuss possible outcomes of this?
Intelligence of parents does not correlate with the intelligence of
their children.
--
Inquiring minds want to know while minds with a self-preservation
instinct are running screaming.
Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
2018-06-20 22:57:59 UTC
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Post by Dimensional Traveler
On Wednesday, June 20, 2018 at 5:40:51 PM UTC-4, Jibini Kula
Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
The only thing an IQ test measures is the ability to take an
IQ test.
I don't think that an IQ test is a great measure of your worth
as a person, or that declining scores are a sign of the end of
the world.
For centuries, intelligent, healthy and good-looking people
have sought out other intelligent, healthy and good-looking
people with the goal of raising a family with perhaps five or
ten intelligent, healthy and good-looking kids. More recently,
large families have gone out of style and only the "less
favoured" are left to produce a significant number of children.
Discuss possible outcomes of this?
Intelligence of parents does not correlate with the intelligence
of their children.
There appears to be some genetic component to potential, but nurture
and environment are far more important
--
Terry Austin

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.
Dorothy J Heydt
2018-06-20 22:34:35 UTC
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Post by John Halpenny
On Wednesday, June 20, 2018 at 5:40:51 PM UTC-4, Jibini Kula Tumbili
Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
The only thing an IQ test measures is the ability to take an IQ test.
I don't think that an IQ test is a great measure of your worth as a
person, or that declining scores are a sign of the end of the world.
For centuries, intelligent, healthy and good-looking people have
sought out other intelligent, healthy and good-looking people with the
goal of raising a family with perhaps five or ten intelligent, healthy
and good-looking kids. More recently, large families have gone out of
style and only the "less favoured" are left to produce a significant
number of children. Discuss possible outcomes of this?
Intelligence of parents does not correlate with the intelligence of
their children.
Except when it does. But sometimes it doesn't.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
James Nicoll
2018-06-20 22:34:48 UTC
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Post by John Halpenny
Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
The only thing an IQ test measures is the ability to take an IQ test.
I don't think that an IQ test is a great measure of your worth as a
person, or that declining scores are a sign of the end of the world.
For centuries, intelligent, healthy and good-looking people have sought
out other intelligent, healthy and good-looking people with the goal of
raising a family with perhaps five or ten intelligent, healthy and
good-looking kids. More recently, large families have gone out of style
and only the "less favoured" are left to produce a significant number of
children. Discuss possible outcomes of this?
You had lots of siblings?

I would expect a terrible plague of people posting thinly disguised
Marching Morons nonsense in the one group where people are likely to
recognize the source.
--
My reviews can be found at http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/
My Dreamwidth at https://james-davis-nicoll.dreamwidth.org/
My patreon is at https://www.patreon.com/jamesdnicoll
p***@hotmail.com
2018-06-21 07:48:19 UTC
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Post by James Nicoll
Post by John Halpenny
Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
The only thing an IQ test measures is the ability to take an IQ test.
I don't think that an IQ test is a great measure of your worth as a
person, or that declining scores are a sign of the end of the world.
For centuries, intelligent, healthy and good-looking people have sought
out other intelligent, healthy and good-looking people with the goal of
raising a family with perhaps five or ten intelligent, healthy and
good-looking kids. More recently, large families have gone out of style
and only the "less favoured" are left to produce a significant number of
children. Discuss possible outcomes of this?
You had lots of siblings?
I would expect a terrible plague of people posting thinly disguised
Marching Morons nonsense in the one group where people are likely to
recognize the source.
--
It's not just from _The Marching Morons_; this idea was a major
premise of the whole eugenics movement. The Nazi party notoriously
adapted it into their own policies. Forced sterilization on eugenic
grounds has been carried out in western countries until surprisingly
recently.

Peter Wezeman
anti-social Darwinist
Peter Trei
2018-06-21 13:11:09 UTC
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Post by p***@hotmail.com
Post by James Nicoll
On Wednesday, June 20, 2018 at 5:40:51 PM UTC-4, Jibini Kula Tumbili
Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
The only thing an IQ test measures is the ability to take an IQ test.
I don't think that an IQ test is a great measure of your worth as a
person, or that declining scores are a sign of the end of the world.
For centuries, intelligent, healthy and good-looking people have sought
out other intelligent, healthy and good-looking people with the goal of
raising a family with perhaps five or ten intelligent, healthy and
good-looking kids. More recently, large families have gone out of style
and only the "less favoured" are left to produce a significant number of
children. Discuss possible outcomes of this?
You had lots of siblings?
I would expect a terrible plague of people posting thinly disguised
Marching Morons nonsense in the one group where people are likely to
recognize the source.
--
It's not just from _The Marching Morons_; this idea was a major
premise of the whole eugenics movement. The Nazi party notoriously
adapted it into their own policies. Forced sterilization on eugenic
grounds has been carried out in western countries until surprisingly
recently.
We're smarter than any other animal, and evolved our intelligence. There's
no way intelligence could evolve unless its (a) inheritable, and (b) enough
variant within the population to affect the ability to have grandchildren.
This is true for every evolved trait.

However, its clear that upbringing and education has a profound effect on
outcome, and also that intragroup variation is much larger than variation
between the averages of groups. It is thus invalid to judge individuals
purely on the basis of the groups they are in.

pt
Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
2018-06-22 17:40:29 UTC
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On Thursday, June 21, 2018 at 3:48:22 AM UTC-4,
On Wednesday, June 20, 2018 at 5:34:50 PM UTC-5, James Nicoll
In article
On Wednesday, June 20, 2018 at 5:40:51 PM UTC-4, Jibini Kula
Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
The only thing an IQ test measures is the ability to take an IQ test.
I don't think that an IQ test is a great measure of your
worth as a person, or that declining scores are a sign of
the end of the world.
For centuries, intelligent, healthy and good-looking people
have sought out other intelligent, healthy and good-looking
people with the goal of raising a family with perhaps five
or ten intelligent, healthy and good-looking kids. More
recently, large families have gone out of style and only the
"less favoured" are left to produce a significant number of
children. Discuss possible outcomes of this?
You had lots of siblings?
I would expect a terrible plague of people posting thinly
disguised Marching Morons nonsense in the one group where
people are likely to recognize the source.
--
It's not just from _The Marching Morons_; this idea was a major
premise of the whole eugenics movement. The Nazi party
notoriously adapted it into their own policies. Forced
sterilization on eugenic grounds has been carried out in
western countries until surprisingly recently.
We're smarter than any other animal, and evolved our
intelligence. There's no way intelligence could evolve unless
its (a) inheritable, and (b) enough variant within the
population to affect the ability to have grandchildren. This is
true for every evolved trait.
You're dancing on the grave of the idea of how many different
definitions of intelligence there are.
However, its clear that upbringing and education has a profound
effect on outcome, and also that intragroup variation is much
larger than variation between the averages of groups. It is thus
invalid to judge individuals purely on the basis of the groups
they are in.
Which is true for pretty much anything one might wish to judge
people on.
--
Terry Austin

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.
Cryptoengineer
2018-06-23 02:10:15 UTC
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Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
Post by Peter Trei
Post by p***@hotmail.com
In article
On Wednesday, June 20, 2018 at 5:40:51 PM UTC-4, Jibini Kula
Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
The only thing an IQ test measures is the ability to take an IQ test.
I don't think that an IQ test is a great measure of your
worth as a person, or that declining scores are a sign of
the end of the world.
For centuries, intelligent, healthy and good-looking people
have sought out other intelligent, healthy and good-looking
people with the goal of raising a family with perhaps five
or ten intelligent, healthy and good-looking kids. More
recently, large families have gone out of style and only the
"less favoured" are left to produce a significant number of
children. Discuss possible outcomes of this?
You had lots of siblings?
I would expect a terrible plague of people posting thinly
disguised Marching Morons nonsense in the one group where
people are likely to recognize the source. --
It's not just from _The Marching Morons_; this idea was a major
premise of the whole eugenics movement. The Nazi party
notoriously adapted it into their own policies. Forced
sterilization on eugenic grounds has been carried out in western
countries until surprisingly recently.
We're smarter than any other animal, and evolved our
intelligence. There's no way intelligence could evolve unless
its (a) inheritable, and (b) enough variant within the
population to affect the ability to have grandchildren. This is true
for every evolved trait.
You're dancing on the grave of the idea of how many different
definitions of intelligence there are.
Absolutely. But regardless of what trait or traits make us
capable of thinking better than (for example) a dog, those trait(s)
evolved. Evolution requires inheritance.

So, however defined, 'intelligence' is inheritable.

pt
Dorothy J Heydt
2018-06-23 03:38:39 UTC
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Post by Cryptoengineer
So, however defined, 'intelligence' is inheritable.
Sometimes.

Consider Isaac Asimov. He had two children. His daughter was a
nice normal person, went into social work. His son was, what's
the current polite term? Intellectually challenged?

Regression to the mean, as mentioned upthread.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Ninapenda Jibini
2018-06-23 05:37:59 UTC
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Post by Cryptoengineer
Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
On Thursday, June 21, 2018 at 3:48:22 AM UTC-4,
Post by p***@hotmail.com
In article
On Wednesday, June 20, 2018 at 5:40:51 PM UTC-4, Jibini
Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
The only thing an IQ test measures is the ability to
take an IQ test.
I don't think that an IQ test is a great measure of your
worth as a person, or that declining scores are a sign of
the end of the world.
For centuries, intelligent, healthy and good-looking
people have sought out other intelligent, healthy and
good-looking people with the goal of raising a family with
perhaps five or ten intelligent, healthy and good-looking
kids. More recently, large families have gone out of style
and only the "less favoured" are left to produce a
significant number of children. Discuss possible outcomes
of this?
You had lots of siblings?
I would expect a terrible plague of people posting thinly
disguised Marching Morons nonsense in the one group where
people are likely to recognize the source. --
It's not just from _The Marching Morons_; this idea was a
major premise of the whole eugenics movement. The Nazi party
notoriously adapted it into their own policies. Forced
sterilization on eugenic grounds has been carried out in
western countries until surprisingly recently.
We're smarter than any other animal, and evolved our
intelligence. There's no way intelligence could evolve unless
its (a) inheritable, and (b) enough variant within the
population to affect the ability to have grandchildren. This
is true for every evolved trait.
You're dancing on the grave of the idea of how many different
definitions of intelligence there are.
Absolutely. But regardless of what trait or traits make us
capable of thinking better than (for example) a dog, those
trait(s) evolved. Evolution requires inheritance.
That is one type of intelligence. Dozens of other types have been
documented scientifically.

And most of them do not appear to have fuckall of a genetic
component.
Post by Cryptoengineer
So, however defined, 'intelligence' is inheritable.
Not according to the peer reviewed research, for most of it.

Do you not believe in science?
--
Terry Austin

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.
Cryptoengineer
2018-06-24 03:32:31 UTC
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Post by Ninapenda Jibini
Post by Cryptoengineer
Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
On Thursday, June 21, 2018 at 3:48:22 AM UTC-4,
Post by p***@hotmail.com
In article
On Wednesday, June 20, 2018 at 5:40:51 PM UTC-4, Jibini
Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
The only thing an IQ test measures is the ability to
take an IQ test.
I don't think that an IQ test is a great measure of your
worth as a person, or that declining scores are a sign of
the end of the world.
For centuries, intelligent, healthy and good-looking
people have sought out other intelligent, healthy and
good-looking people with the goal of raising a family with
perhaps five or ten intelligent, healthy and good-looking
kids. More recently, large families have gone out of style
and only the "less favoured" are left to produce a
significant number of children. Discuss possible outcomes of
this?
You had lots of siblings?
I would expect a terrible plague of people posting thinly
disguised Marching Morons nonsense in the one group where people
are likely to recognize the source. --
It's not just from _The Marching Morons_; this idea was a
major premise of the whole eugenics movement. The Nazi party
notoriously adapted it into their own policies. Forced
sterilization on eugenic grounds has been carried out in western
countries until surprisingly recently.
We're smarter than any other animal, and evolved our
intelligence. There's no way intelligence could evolve unless
its (a) inheritable, and (b) enough variant within the
population to affect the ability to have grandchildren. This is true
for every evolved trait.
You're dancing on the grave of the idea of how many different
definitions of intelligence there are.
Absolutely. But regardless of what trait or traits make us
capable of thinking better than (for example) a dog, those trait(s)
evolved. Evolution requires inheritance.
That is one type of intelligence. Dozens of other types have been
documented scientifically.
Sure, and if we have them more than other species, its because of
our inheritable genetic differences from them. The ability to learn
complex behaviours and patterns of thought from others is one of our
inherited skills, and enables a great deal.
Post by Ninapenda Jibini
And most of them do not appear to have fuckall of a genetic
component.
Post by Cryptoengineer
So, however defined, 'intelligence' is inheritable.
Not according to the peer reviewed research, for most of it.
Do you not believe in science?
Sure I do. You're making some very confident assertions. I assume
you can back them up. So, I'm calling your bluff:

Give the citations, in peer reivewed journals for 'dozens of other
types of intelligence', including the evidence that they 'do not
appear to have fuckall of a genetic component' (not sure what your
doing with the double negative there - I'm assuming you meant that
they are no inherited)

I'll make it easy for you: 'dozens' would be a lot of work. Can you
give even three?

Learned or acquired skills don't count. We can do those due to the
inherited ability to learn more more and complexly than other species.

Put up, or shut up.

pt
Ninapenda Jibini
2018-06-24 07:34:27 UTC
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Post by Cryptoengineer
Post by Ninapenda Jibini
Post by Cryptoengineer
Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
On Thursday, June 21, 2018 at 3:48:22 AM UTC-4,
On Wednesday, June 20, 2018 at 5:34:50 PM UTC-5, James
In article
On Wednesday, June 20, 2018 at 5:40:51 PM UTC-4, Jibini
Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
The only thing an IQ test measures is the ability to
take an IQ test.
I don't think that an IQ test is a great measure of your
worth as a person, or that declining scores are a sign
of the end of the world.
For centuries, intelligent, healthy and good-looking
people have sought out other intelligent, healthy and
good-looking people with the goal of raising a family
with perhaps five or ten intelligent, healthy and
good-looking kids. More recently, large families have
gone out of style and only the "less favoured" are left
to produce a significant number of children. Discuss
possible outcomes of this?
You had lots of siblings?
I would expect a terrible plague of people posting thinly
disguised Marching Morons nonsense in the one group where
people are likely to recognize the source. --
It's not just from _The Marching Morons_; this idea was a
major premise of the whole eugenics movement. The Nazi
party notoriously adapted it into their own policies.
Forced sterilization on eugenic grounds has been carried
out in western countries until surprisingly recently.
We're smarter than any other animal, and evolved our
intelligence. There's no way intelligence could evolve
unless its (a) inheritable, and (b) enough variant within
the population to affect the ability to have grandchildren.
This is true for every evolved trait.
You're dancing on the grave of the idea of how many different
definitions of intelligence there are.
Absolutely. But regardless of what trait or traits make us
capable of thinking better than (for example) a dog, those
trait(s) evolved. Evolution requires inheritance.
That is one type of intelligence. Dozens of other types have
been documented scientifically.
Sure, and if we have them more than other species, its because
of our inheritable genetic differences from them.
The longer you insist on trying to change the subject, the stupider
you will look.

That means this is a day that ends in "y."
--
Terry Austin

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.
Cryptoengineer
2018-06-24 15:03:50 UTC
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Post by Ninapenda Jibini
Post by Ninapenda Jibini
Post by Cryptoengineer
Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
On Thursday, June 21, 2018 at 3:48:22 AM UTC-4,
On Wednesday, June 20, 2018 at 5:34:50 PM UTC-5, James
In article
On Wednesday, June 20, 2018 at 5:40:51 PM UTC-4, Jibini
Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
The only thing an IQ test measures is the ability to take an IQ test.
I don't think that an IQ test is a great measure of your
worth as a person, or that declining scores are a sign
of the end of the world.
For centuries, intelligent, healthy and good-looking
people have sought out other intelligent, healthy and
good-looking people with the goal of raising a family
with perhaps five or ten intelligent, healthy and
good-looking kids. More recently, large families have
gone out of style and only the "less favoured" are left
to produce a significant number of children. Discuss possible
outcomes of this?
You had lots of siblings?
I would expect a terrible plague of people posting thinly
disguised Marching Morons nonsense in the one group where
people are likely to recognize the source. --
It's not just from _The Marching Morons_; this idea was a
major premise of the whole eugenics movement. The Nazi
party notoriously adapted it into their own policies.
Forced sterilization on eugenic grounds has been carried out in
western countries until surprisingly recently.
We're smarter than any other animal, and evolved our
intelligence. There's no way intelligence could evolve
unless its (a) inheritable, and (b) enough variant within
the population to affect the ability to have grandchildren.
This is true for every evolved trait.
You're dancing on the grave of the idea of how many different
definitions of intelligence there are.
Absolutely. But regardless of what trait or traits make us
capable of thinking better than (for example) a dog, those trait(s)
evolved. Evolution requires inheritance.
That is one type of intelligence. Dozens of other types have been
documented scientifically.
Sure, and if we have them more than other species, its because of our
inheritable genetic differences from them.
The longer you insist on trying to change the subject, the stupider
you will look.
Bluff called, Terry folds.

pt
Ninapenda Jibini
2018-06-24 19:12:06 UTC
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Post by Cryptoengineer
Post by Ninapenda Jibini
Post by Cryptoengineer
Post by Ninapenda Jibini
Post by Cryptoengineer
Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
On Thursday, June 21, 2018 at 3:48:22 AM UTC-4,
On Wednesday, June 20, 2018 at 5:34:50 PM UTC-5, James
In article
On Wednesday, June 20, 2018 at 5:40:51 PM UTC-4,
Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
The only thing an IQ test measures is the ability to
take an IQ test.
I don't think that an IQ test is a great measure of
your worth as a person, or that declining scores are a
sign of the end of the world.
For centuries, intelligent, healthy and good-looking
people have sought out other intelligent, healthy and
good-looking people with the goal of raising a family
with perhaps five or ten intelligent, healthy and
good-looking kids. More recently, large families have
gone out of style and only the "less favoured" are
left to produce a significant number of children.
Discuss possible outcomes of this?
You had lots of siblings?
I would expect a terrible plague of people posting
thinly disguised Marching Morons nonsense in the one
group where people are likely to recognize the source.
--
It's not just from _The Marching Morons_; this idea was a
major premise of the whole eugenics movement. The Nazi
party notoriously adapted it into their own policies.
Forced sterilization on eugenic grounds has been carried
out in western countries until surprisingly recently.
We're smarter than any other animal, and evolved our
intelligence. There's no way intelligence could evolve
unless its (a) inheritable, and (b) enough variant within
the population to affect the ability to have
grandchildren. This is true for every evolved trait.
You're dancing on the grave of the idea of how many
different definitions of intelligence there are.
Absolutely. But regardless of what trait or traits make us
capable of thinking better than (for example) a dog, those
trait(s) evolved. Evolution requires inheritance.
That is one type of intelligence. Dozens of other types have
been documented scientifically.
Sure, and if we have them more than other species, its because
of our inheritable genetic differences from them.
The longer you insist on trying to change the subject, the
stupider you will look.
Bluff called, Terry folds.
Thank you for admitting I'm right, as usual, while preserving your
fragile, childish ego. We all knew that already, sure, but the
first step to treatment is to admit you have a problem.

I was talking about the many different kinds of intelligence, as
recognized by those who study such things scientificatlly. You said
something *stupid* - as you always do - and when I called you out
on it - as I always do - you demonstrated your childishness and
stupidity by trying to change the subject to one specific type.
Which I never denied existed, of course, despite your lying,
childish, cowardly implication that I had.

The way to get to the bottom of the hold, son, is to stop digging.
You *know* you can't win. You *know* you can't get the last word.
You *know* you're wrong, and you *know* that everyone else knows
it. You *know* you're full of shit - as usual. So give it up, and
STFU, or get used to your ass smarting - again.

Moron.
--
Terry Austin

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.
m***@sky.com
2018-06-26 04:41:35 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Ninapenda Jibini
Post by Cryptoengineer
Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
On Thursday, June 21, 2018 at 3:48:22 AM UTC-4,
Post by p***@hotmail.com
In article
On Wednesday, June 20, 2018 at 5:40:51 PM UTC-4, Jibini
Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
The only thing an IQ test measures is the ability to
take an IQ test.
I don't think that an IQ test is a great measure of your
worth as a person, or that declining scores are a sign of
the end of the world.
For centuries, intelligent, healthy and good-looking
people have sought out other intelligent, healthy and
good-looking people with the goal of raising a family with
perhaps five or ten intelligent, healthy and good-looking
kids. More recently, large families have gone out of style
and only the "less favoured" are left to produce a
significant number of children. Discuss possible outcomes
of this?
You had lots of siblings?
I would expect a terrible plague of people posting thinly
disguised Marching Morons nonsense in the one group where
people are likely to recognize the source. --
It's not just from _The Marching Morons_; this idea was a
major premise of the whole eugenics movement. The Nazi party
notoriously adapted it into their own policies. Forced
sterilization on eugenic grounds has been carried out in
western countries until surprisingly recently.
We're smarter than any other animal, and evolved our
intelligence. There's no way intelligence could evolve unless
its (a) inheritable, and (b) enough variant within the
population to affect the ability to have grandchildren. This
is true for every evolved trait.
You're dancing on the grave of the idea of how many different
definitions of intelligence there are.
Absolutely. But regardless of what trait or traits make us
capable of thinking better than (for example) a dog, those
trait(s) evolved. Evolution requires inheritance.
That is one type of intelligence. Dozens of other types have been
documented scientifically.
And most of them do not appear to have fuckall of a genetic
component.
Post by Cryptoengineer
So, however defined, 'intelligence' is inheritable.
Not according to the peer reviewed research, for most of it.
Do you not believe in science?
--
Terry Austin
"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek
Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.
Some recent science - article at https://www.sciencealert.com/scientists-have-discovered-almost-1-000-new-genes-associated-with-intelligence claims to be reporting an article in Nature Genetics

An international team conducted a large-scale genetic association study of intelligence and discovered 190 new genomic loci and 939 new genes linked with intelligence, significantly expanding our understanding of the genetic bases of cognitive function.
Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
2018-06-26 15:32:35 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by m***@sky.com
Post by Ninapenda Jibini
Post by Cryptoengineer
Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
On Thursday, June 21, 2018 at 3:48:22 AM UTC-4,
On Wednesday, June 20, 2018 at 5:34:50 PM UTC-5, James
In article
On Wednesday, June 20, 2018 at 5:40:51 PM UTC-4, Jibini
Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
The only thing an IQ test measures is the ability to take an IQ test.
I don't think that an IQ test is a great measure of
your worth as a person, or that declining scores are a
sign of the end of the world.
For centuries, intelligent, healthy and good-looking
people have sought out other intelligent, healthy and
good-looking people with the goal of raising a family
with perhaps five or ten intelligent, healthy and
good-looking kids. More recently, large families have
gone out of style and only the "less favoured" are left
to produce a significant number of children. Discuss
possible outcomes of this?
You had lots of siblings?
I would expect a terrible plague of people posting
thinly disguised Marching Morons nonsense in the one
group where people are likely to recognize the source.
--
It's not just from _The Marching Morons_; this idea was a
major premise of the whole eugenics movement. The Nazi
party notoriously adapted it into their own policies.
Forced sterilization on eugenic grounds has been carried
out in western countries until surprisingly recently.
We're smarter than any other animal, and evolved our
intelligence. There's no way intelligence could evolve
unless its (a) inheritable, and (b) enough variant within
the population to affect the ability to have grandchildren.
This is true for every evolved trait.
You're dancing on the grave of the idea of how many
different definitions of intelligence there are.
Absolutely. But regardless of what trait or traits make us
capable of thinking better than (for example) a dog, those
trait(s) evolved. Evolution requires inheritance.
That is one type of intelligence. Dozens of other types have
been documented scientifically.
And most of them do not appear to have fuckall of a genetic
component.
Post by Cryptoengineer
So, however defined, 'intelligence' is inheritable.
Not according to the peer reviewed research, for most of it.
Do you not believe in science?
--
Terry Austin
"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek
Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.
Some recent science - article at
https://www.sciencealert.com/scientists-have-discovered-almost-1-
000-new-genes-associated-with-intelligence claims to be
reporting an article in Nature Genetics
An international team conducted a large-scale genetic
association study of intelligence and discovered 190 new genomic
loci and 939 new genes linked with intelligence, significantly
expanding our understanding of the genetic bases of cognitive
function.
And nurture is still far more important.
--
Terry Austin

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.
Dimensional Traveler
2018-06-26 17:49:50 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
Post by m***@sky.com
Post by Ninapenda Jibini
Post by Cryptoengineer
Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
On Thursday, June 21, 2018 at 3:48:22 AM UTC-4,
On Wednesday, June 20, 2018 at 5:34:50 PM UTC-5, James
In article
On Wednesday, June 20, 2018 at 5:40:51 PM UTC-4, Jibini
Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
The only thing an IQ test measures is the ability to
take an IQ test.
I don't think that an IQ test is a great measure of
your worth as a person, or that declining scores are a
sign of the end of the world.
For centuries, intelligent, healthy and good-looking
people have sought out other intelligent, healthy and
good-looking people with the goal of raising a family
with perhaps five or ten intelligent, healthy and
good-looking kids. More recently, large families have
gone out of style and only the "less favoured" are left
to produce a significant number of children. Discuss
possible outcomes of this?
You had lots of siblings?
I would expect a terrible plague of people posting
thinly disguised Marching Morons nonsense in the one
group where people are likely to recognize the source.
--
It's not just from _The Marching Morons_; this idea was a
major premise of the whole eugenics movement. The Nazi
party notoriously adapted it into their own policies.
Forced sterilization on eugenic grounds has been carried
out in western countries until surprisingly recently.
We're smarter than any other animal, and evolved our
intelligence. There's no way intelligence could evolve
unless its (a) inheritable, and (b) enough variant within
the population to affect the ability to have grandchildren.
This is true for every evolved trait.
You're dancing on the grave of the idea of how many
different definitions of intelligence there are.
Absolutely. But regardless of what trait or traits make us
capable of thinking better than (for example) a dog, those
trait(s) evolved. Evolution requires inheritance.
That is one type of intelligence. Dozens of other types have
been documented scientifically.
And most of them do not appear to have fuckall of a genetic
component.
Post by Cryptoengineer
So, however defined, 'intelligence' is inheritable.
Not according to the peer reviewed research, for most of it.
Do you not believe in science?
Some recent science - article at
https://www.sciencealert.com/scientists-have-discovered-almost-1-
000-new-genes-associated-with-intelligence claims to be
reporting an article in Nature Genetics
An international team conducted a large-scale genetic
association study of intelligence and discovered 190 new genomic
loci and 939 new genes linked with intelligence, significantly
expanding our understanding of the genetic bases of cognitive
function.
And nurture is still far more important.
"The beatings will continue until intelligence improves." (Though
probably not in a way the beater will like.)
--
Inquiring minds want to know while minds with a self-preservation
instinct are running screaming.
Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
2018-06-26 18:06:56 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Dimensional Traveler
Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
On Saturday, June 23, 2018 at 6:38:02 AM UTC+1, Ninapenda
Post by Ninapenda Jibini
Post by Cryptoengineer
Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
On Thursday, June 21, 2018 at 3:48:22 AM UTC-4,
On Wednesday, June 20, 2018 at 5:34:50 PM UTC-5, James
In article
On Wednesday, June 20, 2018 at 5:40:51 PM UTC-4, Jibini
Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
The only thing an IQ test measures is the ability to
take an IQ test.
I don't think that an IQ test is a great measure of
your worth as a person, or that declining scores are a
sign of the end of the world.
For centuries, intelligent, healthy and good-looking
people have sought out other intelligent, healthy and
good-looking people with the goal of raising a family
with perhaps five or ten intelligent, healthy and
good-looking kids. More recently, large families have
gone out of style and only the "less favoured" are left
to produce a significant number of children. Discuss
possible outcomes of this?
You had lots of siblings?
I would expect a terrible plague of people posting
thinly disguised Marching Morons nonsense in the one
group where people are likely to recognize the source.
--
It's not just from _The Marching Morons_; this idea was a
major premise of the whole eugenics movement. The Nazi
party notoriously adapted it into their own policies.
Forced sterilization on eugenic grounds has been carried
out in western countries until surprisingly recently.
We're smarter than any other animal, and evolved our
intelligence. There's no way intelligence could evolve
unless its (a) inheritable, and (b) enough variant within
the population to affect the ability to have
grandchildren. This is true for every evolved trait.
You're dancing on the grave of the idea of how many
different definitions of intelligence there are.
Absolutely. But regardless of what trait or traits make us
capable of thinking better than (for example) a dog, those
trait(s) evolved. Evolution requires inheritance.
That is one type of intelligence. Dozens of other types have
been documented scientifically.
And most of them do not appear to have fuckall of a genetic
component.
Post by Cryptoengineer
So, however defined, 'intelligence' is inheritable.
Not according to the peer reviewed research, for most of it.
Do you not believe in science?
Some recent science - article at
https://www.sciencealert.com/scientists-have-discovered-almost-
1- 000-new-genes-associated-with-intelligence claims to be
reporting an article in Nature Genetics
An international team conducted a large-scale genetic
association study of intelligence and discovered 190 new
genomic loci and 939 new genes linked with intelligence,
significantly expanding our understanding of the genetic bases
of cognitive function.
And nurture is still far more important.
"The beatings will continue until intelligence improves."
(Though probably not in a way the beater will like.)
There's a masturbation joke in there somewhere ("beating off"),
but I'm too busy with the T-1 Upgrade From Hell (and too lazy) to
dig for it.
--
Terry Austin

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.
Dimensional Traveler
2018-06-26 19:19:57 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
Post by Dimensional Traveler
Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
On Saturday, June 23, 2018 at 6:38:02 AM UTC+1, Ninapenda
Post by Ninapenda Jibini
Post by Cryptoengineer
Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
On Thursday, June 21, 2018 at 3:48:22 AM UTC-4,
On Wednesday, June 20, 2018 at 5:34:50 PM UTC-5, James
In article
On Wednesday, June 20, 2018 at 5:40:51 PM UTC-4, Jibini
Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
The only thing an IQ test measures is the ability to take an IQ test.
I don't think that an IQ test is a great measure of
your worth as a person, or that declining scores are a
sign of the end of the world.
For centuries, intelligent, healthy and good-looking
people have sought out other intelligent, healthy and
good-looking people with the goal of raising a family
with perhaps five or ten intelligent, healthy and
good-looking kids. More recently, large families have
gone out of style and only the "less favoured" are left
to produce a significant number of children. Discuss
possible outcomes of this?
You had lots of siblings?
I would expect a terrible plague of people posting
thinly disguised Marching Morons nonsense in the one
group where people are likely to recognize the source.
--
It's not just from _The Marching Morons_; this idea was a
major premise of the whole eugenics movement. The Nazi
party notoriously adapted it into their own policies.
Forced sterilization on eugenic grounds has been carried
out in western countries until surprisingly recently.
We're smarter than any other animal, and evolved our
intelligence. There's no way intelligence could evolve
unless its (a) inheritable, and (b) enough variant within
the population to affect the ability to have
grandchildren. This is true for every evolved trait.
You're dancing on the grave of the idea of how many
different definitions of intelligence there are.
Absolutely. But regardless of what trait or traits make us
capable of thinking better than (for example) a dog, those
trait(s) evolved. Evolution requires inheritance.
That is one type of intelligence. Dozens of other types have
been documented scientifically.
And most of them do not appear to have fuckall of a genetic
component.
Post by Cryptoengineer
So, however defined, 'intelligence' is inheritable.
Not according to the peer reviewed research, for most of it.
Do you not believe in science?
Some recent science - article at
https://www.sciencealert.com/scientists-have-discovered-almost-
1- 000-new-genes-associated-with-intelligence claims to be
reporting an article in Nature Genetics
An international team conducted a large-scale genetic
association study of intelligence and discovered 190 new
genomic loci and 939 new genes linked with intelligence,
significantly expanding our understanding of the genetic bases
of cognitive function.
And nurture is still far more important.
"The beatings will continue until intelligence improves."
(Though probably not in a way the beater will like.)
There's a masturbation joke in there somewhere ("beating off"),
but I'm too busy with the T-1 Upgrade From Hell (and too lazy) to
dig for it.
The original line was supposed to be a joke about how companies treat
their employees, "The beatings will continue until morale improves" but
you've given that a whole new spin now.
--
Inquiring minds want to know while minds with a self-preservation
instinct are running screaming.
Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
2018-06-26 19:44:44 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Dimensional Traveler
Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
Post by Dimensional Traveler
Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
On Saturday, June 23, 2018 at 6:38:02 AM UTC+1, Ninapenda
Post by Ninapenda Jibini
Post by Cryptoengineer
Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
On Thursday, June 21, 2018 at 3:48:22 AM UTC-4,
Post by p***@hotmail.com
In article
On Wednesday, June 20, 2018 at 5:40:51 PM UTC-4,
Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
The only thing an IQ test measures is the ability to
take an IQ test.
I don't think that an IQ test is a great measure of
your worth as a person, or that declining scores are
a sign of the end of the world.
For centuries, intelligent, healthy and good-looking
people have sought out other intelligent, healthy and
good-looking people with the goal of raising a family
with perhaps five or ten intelligent, healthy and
good-looking kids. More recently, large families have
gone out of style and only the "less favoured" are
left to produce a significant number of children.
Discuss possible outcomes of this?
You had lots of siblings?
I would expect a terrible plague of people posting
thinly disguised Marching Morons nonsense in the one
group where people are likely to recognize the source.
--
It's not just from _The Marching Morons_; this idea was
a major premise of the whole eugenics movement. The
Nazi party notoriously adapted it into their own
policies. Forced sterilization on eugenic grounds has
been carried out in western countries until
surprisingly recently.
We're smarter than any other animal, and evolved our
intelligence. There's no way intelligence could evolve
unless its (a) inheritable, and (b) enough variant
within the population to affect the ability to have
grandchildren. This is true for every evolved trait.
You're dancing on the grave of the idea of how many
different definitions of intelligence there are.
Absolutely. But regardless of what trait or traits make us
capable of thinking better than (for example) a dog, those
trait(s) evolved. Evolution requires inheritance.
That is one type of intelligence. Dozens of other types
have been documented scientifically.
And most of them do not appear to have fuckall of a genetic
component.
Post by Cryptoengineer
So, however defined, 'intelligence' is inheritable.
Not according to the peer reviewed research, for most of
it.
Do you not believe in science?
Some recent science - article at
https://www.sciencealert.com/scientists-have-discovered-almos
t- 1- 000-new-genes-associated-with-intelligence claims to
be reporting an article in Nature Genetics
An international team conducted a large-scale genetic
association study of intelligence and discovered 190 new
genomic loci and 939 new genes linked with intelligence,
significantly expanding our understanding of the genetic
bases of cognitive function.
And nurture is still far more important.
"The beatings will continue until intelligence improves."
(Though probably not in a way the beater will like.)
There's a masturbation joke in there somewhere ("beating off"),
but I'm too busy with the T-1 Upgrade From Hell (and too lazy)
to dig for it.
The original line was supposed to be a joke about how companies
treat their employees, "The beatings will continue until morale
improves"
Yeah, I got that.
Post by Dimensional Traveler
but you've given that a whole new spin now.
I live to serve.
--
Terry Austin

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.
Ahasuerus
2018-06-26 17:06:25 UTC
Reply
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On Tuesday, June 26, 2018 at 12:41:38 AM UTC-4, ***@sky.com wrote:
[snip]
Post by m***@sky.com
Some recent science - article at
https://www.sciencealert.com/scientists-have-discovered-almost-1-000-new-genes-associated-with-intelligence
claims to be reporting an article in Nature Genetics
An international team conducted a large-scale genetic association
study of intelligence and discovered 190 new genomic loci and 939
new genes linked with intelligence, significantly expanding our
understanding of the genetic bases of cognitive function.
The abstract is available at
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41588-018-0152-6

ObSF: It will be interesting to see how recent biological advances
(there have been quite a few in the last couple of decades) will
affect SF. IT advances have more immediate impact on SF because they
are easy to see and project into the future, but in the long run
biological advances may be just as important.
Greg Goss
2018-06-26 06:19:38 UTC
Reply
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Raw Message
Post by Peter Trei
We're smarter than any other animal, and evolved our intelligence. There's
no way intelligence could evolve unless its (a) inheritable, and (b) enough
variant within the population to affect the ability to have grandchildren.
This is true for every evolved trait.
Neanderthal braiins were bigger than Cromagnon brains (though laid out
very differently) and average Cromagnon brains were bigger (slightly)
than average modern brains.

To some, that latter point supports the marching morons hypothesis
already.
--
We are geeks. Resistance is voltage over current.
h***@gmail.com
2018-06-26 07:04:06 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Greg Goss
Post by Peter Trei
We're smarter than any other animal, and evolved our intelligence. There's
no way intelligence could evolve unless its (a) inheritable, and (b) enough
variant within the population to affect the ability to have grandchildren.
This is true for every evolved trait.
Neanderthal braiins were bigger than Cromagnon brains (though laid out
very differently) and average Cromagnon brains were bigger (slightly)
than average modern brains.
What were the body sizes though?
The ratio of brain size to body size seems to be a slightly less inaccurate indicator of intelligence than brain size alone.
Dorothy J Heydt
2018-06-26 14:42:45 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by h***@gmail.com
Post by Greg Goss
Post by Peter Trei
We're smarter than any other animal, and evolved our intelligence. There's
no way intelligence could evolve unless its (a) inheritable, and (b) enough
variant within the population to affect the ability to have grandchildren.
This is true for every evolved trait.
Neanderthal braiins were bigger than Cromagnon brains (though laid out
very differently) and average Cromagnon brains were bigger (slightly)
than average modern brains.
What were the body sizes though?
The ratio of brain size to body size seems to be a slightly less
inaccurate indicator of intelligence than brain size alone.
Well, I can't give you numbers. But one of the BBC documentaries
(_Walking with Cavemen_, probably) has a sequence where a
contemporary (that is, _H. sapiens_) primatologist is standing in
the African landscape with am ealy hominin CGI'd next to him.
The hominin comes up to about mid-forearm on him, and he's one of
the small-brained types ... but he has enough-brains that when he
sees the CGI'd predator stalking him, he runs away.

This is all very vague; it's been a while since I've seen the
program and it's early in the morning. I'll try watching the DVD
this afternoon and re-post with better details.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
David Johnston
2018-06-26 16:46:28 UTC
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Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by h***@gmail.com
Post by Greg Goss
Post by Peter Trei
We're smarter than any other animal, and evolved our intelligence. There's
no way intelligence could evolve unless its (a) inheritable, and (b) enough
variant within the population to affect the ability to have grandchildren.
This is true for every evolved trait.
Neanderthal braiins were bigger than Cromagnon brains (though laid out
very differently) and average Cromagnon brains were bigger (slightly)
than average modern brains.
What were the body sizes though?
The ratio of brain size to body size seems to be a slightly less
inaccurate indicator of intelligence than brain size alone.
Well, I can't give you numbers. But one of the BBC documentaries
(_Walking with Cavemen_, probably) has a sequence where a
contemporary (that is, _H. sapiens_) primatologist is standing in
the African landscape with am ealy hominin CGI'd next to him.
The hominin comes up to about mid-forearm on him, and he's one of
the small-brained types ... but he has enough-brains that when he
sees the CGI'd predator stalking him, he runs away.
Neanderthals and Cromagnons aren't early hominids. But they weren't
notably bigger than modern humans. It's likely though that the extra
brain size was devoted to a relatively superior ability to process
sensory input.
Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
2018-06-26 17:07:38 UTC
Reply
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Raw Message
Post by David Johnston
In article
On Tuesday, June 26, 2018 at 4:19:52 PM UTC+10, Greg Goss
Post by Greg Goss
Post by Peter Trei
We're smarter than any other animal, and evolved our
intelligence. There's no way intelligence could evolve
unless its (a) inheritable, and (b) enough variant within
the population to affect the ability to have grandchildren.
This is true for every evolved trait.
Neanderthal braiins were bigger than Cromagnon brains (though
laid out very differently) and average Cromagnon brains were
bigger (slightly) than average modern brains.
What were the body sizes though?
The ratio of brain size to body size seems to be a slightly
less inaccurate indicator of intelligence than brain size
alone.
Well, I can't give you numbers. But one of the BBC
documentaries (_Walking with Cavemen_, probably) has a sequence
where a contemporary (that is, _H. sapiens_) primatologist is
standing in the African landscape with am ealy hominin CGI'd
next to him. The hominin comes up to about mid-forearm on him,
and he's one of the small-brained types ... but he has
enough-brains that when he sees the CGI'd predator stalking
him, he runs away.
Neanderthals and Cromagnons aren't early hominids. But they
weren't notably bigger than modern humans. It's likely though
that the extra brain size was devoted to a relatively superior
ability to process sensory input.
Here's an interesting discussion of current theories:

http://www.tested.com/science/life/454072-why-bigger-neanderthal-
brains-didnt-make-them-smarter-humans/

https://tinyurl.com/pydjxj4

TL;Dr: Neandertal's brains developed in areas that enhanced
individusla survival, Cromagnon's brains developed in areas that
enhanced cooperative survival. Which is why we're still around, and
they're not. (Evoplution doesn't give a shit about individual
survival, only the ability to procreate.)
--
Terry Austin

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.
Lawrence Watt-Evans
2018-06-26 14:50:04 UTC
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Post by Greg Goss
Post by Peter Trei
We're smarter than any other animal, and evolved our intelligence. There's
no way intelligence could evolve unless its (a) inheritable, and (b) enough
variant within the population to affect the ability to have grandchildren.
This is true for every evolved trait.
Neanderthal braiins were bigger than Cromagnon brains (though laid out
very differently) and average Cromagnon brains were bigger (slightly)
than average modern brains.
To some, that latter point supports the marching morons hypothesis
already.
More likely our brains have gotten more efficient. Brain tissue is
expensive, so smaller, more efficient brains would be a pro-survival
trait.

Brain efficiency varies a lot. Look at parrots or crows -- they're
much, much smarter than any mammalian brain that size.
--
My webpage is at http://www.watt-evans.com
My latest novel is Stone Unturned: A Legend of Ethshar.
See http://www.ethshar.com/StoneUnturned.shtml
Greg Goss
2018-06-27 14:30:51 UTC
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Post by Lawrence Watt-Evans
Post by Greg Goss
Neanderthal braiins were bigger than Cromagnon brains (though laid out
very differently) and average Cromagnon brains were bigger (slightly)
than average modern brains.
To some, that latter point supports the marching morons hypothesis
already.
More likely our brains have gotten more efficient. Brain tissue is
expensive, so smaller, more efficient brains would be a pro-survival
trait.
Nerves are damned slow. If you can make things work with a smaller
brain, then the intra-brain links speed up dramatically. Smaller
brains are not JUST more energy efficient.
Post by Lawrence Watt-Evans
Brain efficiency varies a lot. Look at parrots or crows -- they're
much, much smarter than any mammalian brain that size.
Parrot / Crow brainpower has always bothered me. There's no way a
brain that size should be that smart.
--
We are geeks. Resistance is voltage over current.
Dimensional Traveler
2018-06-26 15:17:41 UTC
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Post by Greg Goss
Post by Peter Trei
We're smarter than any other animal, and evolved our intelligence. There's
no way intelligence could evolve unless its (a) inheritable, and (b) enough
variant within the population to affect the ability to have grandchildren.
This is true for every evolved trait.
Neanderthal braiins were bigger than Cromagnon brains (though laid out
very differently) and average Cromagnon brains were bigger (slightly)
than average modern brains.
To some, that latter point supports the marching morons hypothesis
already.
Or we're evolving more efficient brains.
--
Inquiring minds want to know while minds with a self-preservation
instinct are running screaming.
Dorothy J Heydt
2018-06-20 22:29:27 UTC
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Post by John Halpenny
Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
The only thing an IQ test measures is the ability to take an IQ test.
I don't think that an IQ test is a great measure of your worth as a
person, or that declining scores are a sign of the end of the world.
For centuries, intelligent, healthy and good-looking people have sought
out other intelligent, healthy and good-looking people with the goal of
raising a family with perhaps five or ten intelligent, healthy and
good-looking kids. More recently, large families have gone out of style
and only the "less favoured" are left to produce a significant number of
children. Discuss possible outcomes of this?
ObSF: Kornbluth, "The Marching Morons."

Clue: People who don't seem (to you) very intelligent might have
magnificant brains, but never had the opportunity for the
education with which to fill them.

Or (vide supra) don't judge a glass by its contents.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
2018-06-20 23:00:26 UTC
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In article
On Wednesday, June 20, 2018 at 5:40:51 PM UTC-4, Jibini Kula
Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
The only thing an IQ test measures is the ability to take an
IQ test.
I don't think that an IQ test is a great measure of your worth
as a person, or that declining scores are a sign of the end of
the world.
For centuries, intelligent, healthy and good-looking people have
sought out other intelligent, healthy and good-looking people
with the goal of raising a family with perhaps five or ten
intelligent, healthy and good-looking kids. More recently, large
families have gone out of style and only the "less favoured" are
left to produce a significant number of children. Discuss
possible outcomes of this?
ObSF: Kornbluth, "The Marching Morons."
Clue: People who don't seem (to you) very intelligent might have
magnificant brains, but never had the opportunity for the
education with which to fill them.
Or they are, in fact, very intelligent about things that Johnny is
very, very stupid at, and discounts the importance of because he
can't handle it. (This is, in fact, why IQ tests *cannot* ever
measure anything but the ability to take IQ tests. The mere fact
that it is a *written* test eliminates broad spectra of
intelligence from what it fails to measure.)
Or (vide supra) don't judge a glass by its contents.
But in Johnny's case, we can certainly judge the contents by the
contents.
--
Terry Austin

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.
John Halpenny
2018-06-20 23:30:35 UTC
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Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
In article
On Wednesday, June 20, 2018 at 5:40:51 PM UTC-4, Jibini Kula
Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
The only thing an IQ test measures is the ability to take an IQ test.
I don't think that an IQ test is a great measure of your worth
as a person, or that declining scores are a sign of the end of
the world.
For centuries, intelligent, healthy and good-looking people have
sought out other intelligent, healthy and good-looking people
with the goal of raising a family with perhaps five or ten
intelligent, healthy and good-looking kids. More recently, large
families have gone out of style and only the "less favoured" are
left to produce a significant number of children. Discuss
possible outcomes of this?
ObSF: Kornbluth, "The Marching Morons."
Clue: People who don't seem (to you) very intelligent might have
magnificant brains, but never had the opportunity for the
education with which to fill them.
Or they are, in fact, very intelligent about things that Johnny is
very, very stupid at, and discounts the importance of because he
can't handle it. (This is, in fact, why IQ tests *cannot* ever
measure anything but the ability to take IQ tests. The mere fact
that it is a *written* test eliminates broad spectra of
intelligence from what it fails to measure.)
I forgot that "intelligence" is a word that cannot be used without instantly getting some people upset. "Good-looking" is also pretty subjunctive, but most people at least know what it means for them. Is it at least safe to use "healthy"?

Children never turn out exactly like their parents, but they do resemble them.

John
Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
2018-06-20 23:53:36 UTC
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On Wednesday, June 20, 2018 at 7:00:31 PM UTC-4, Jibini Kula
Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
In article
On Wednesday, June 20, 2018 at 5:40:51 PM UTC-4, Jibini Kula
Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
The only thing an IQ test measures is the ability to take
an IQ test.
I don't think that an IQ test is a great measure of your
worth as a person, or that declining scores are a sign of the
end of the world.
For centuries, intelligent, healthy and good-looking people
have sought out other intelligent, healthy and good-looking
people with the goal of raising a family with perhaps five or
ten intelligent, healthy and good-looking kids. More
recently, large families have gone out of style and only the
"less favoured" are left to produce a significant number of
children. Discuss possible outcomes of this?
ObSF: Kornbluth, "The Marching Morons."
Clue: People who don't seem (to you) very intelligent might
have magnificant brains, but never had the opportunity for
the education with which to fill them.
Or they are, in fact, very intelligent about things that Johnny
is very, very stupid at, and discounts the importance of
because he can't handle it. (This is, in fact, why IQ tests
*cannot* ever measure anything but the ability to take IQ
tests. The mere fact that it is a *written* test eliminates
broad spectra of intelligence from what it fails to measure.)
I forgot that "intelligence" is a word that cannot be used
without instantly getting some people upset.
For values of "upset" that include me laughing at the moron.
"Good-looking" is
also pretty subjunctive, but most people at least know what it
means for them. Is it at least safe to use "healthy"?
Children never turn out exactly like their parents, but they do resemble them.
By and large, not because of genetics.

I'm still waiting for you to define intelligence. I'll be waiting a
long, long time, won't I?
--
Terry Austin

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.
Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
2018-06-20 22:56:48 UTC
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On Wednesday, June 20, 2018 at 5:40:51 PM UTC-4, Jibini Kula
Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
The only thing an IQ test measures is the ability to take an IQ test.
I don't think that an IQ test is a great measure of your worth
as a person, or that declining scores are a sign of the end of
the world.
Declining IQ test scores is a sign of nothing more than declining IQ
scores. There is no other meaning to it at all.
For centuries, intelligent, healthy and good-looking people have
sought out other intelligent, healthy and good-looking people
with the goal of raising a family with perhaps five or ten
intelligent, healthy and good-looking kids. More recently, large
families have gone out of style and only the "less favoured" are
left to produce a significant number of children. Discuss
possible outcomes of this?
Discussion is impossible without first defining what you mean by
"intelligence." (If you can come up with one - and only one - that is
universally accepted, and has some objective meaning, you will be,
literally, the most brilliant researching in the history of the
field.)
--
Terry Austin

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.
m***@sky.com
2018-06-21 04:22:29 UTC
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Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
On Wednesday, June 20, 2018 at 5:40:51 PM UTC-4, Jibini Kula
Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
The only thing an IQ test measures is the ability to take an IQ test.
I don't think that an IQ test is a great measure of your worth
as a person, or that declining scores are a sign of the end of
the world.
Declining IQ test scores is a sign of nothing more than declining IQ
scores. There is no other meaning to it at all.
For centuries, intelligent, healthy and good-looking people have
sought out other intelligent, healthy and good-looking people
with the goal of raising a family with perhaps five or ten
intelligent, healthy and good-looking kids. More recently, large
families have gone out of style and only the "less favoured" are
left to produce a significant number of children. Discuss
possible outcomes of this?
Discussion is impossible without first defining what you mean by
"intelligence." (If you can come up with one - and only one - that is
universally accepted, and has some objective meaning, you will be,
literally, the most brilliant researching in the history of the
field.)
--
Terry Austin
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB
"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek
Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.
For those that don't buy into the "it's just a number" story, Wikipedia has a reasonable explanation at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intelligence_quotient#General_factor_(g) that describes how what IQ tests measured was designed to be a common factor that statistics showed was correlated to ability at a variety of school subjects (one of the first examples of what I suspect was Principal Components Analysis). So it should be no surprise that people who score well in IQ tests tend to do well at academic subjects in school.

I also note since IQ is inheritable https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heritability_of_IQ it is measuring something we evolved and it would be very odd for us to evolve something which had no other purpose than passing tests only invented millennia after the ability evolved.
Kevrob
2018-06-21 21:53:09 UTC
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Post by m***@sky.com
I also note since IQ is inheritable https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heritability_of_IQ it is measuring something we evolved and it would be very odd for us to evolve something which had no other purpose than passing tests only invented millennia after the ability evolved.
What would a graph of the scores look like if the tests didn't get
renormed periodically?

Average heights might seem to decline if one keeps redefining the metre
or foot.

Kevin R
Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
2018-06-22 17:38:43 UTC
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On Wednesday, June 20, 2018 at 11:56:52 PM UTC+1, Jibini Kula
Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
On Wednesday, June 20, 2018 at 5:40:51 PM UTC-4, Jibini Kula
Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
The only thing an IQ test measures is the ability to take an IQ test.
I don't think that an IQ test is a great measure of your
worth as a person, or that declining scores are a sign of the
end of the world.
Declining IQ test scores is a sign of nothing more than
declining IQ scores. There is no other meaning to it at all.
For centuries, intelligent, healthy and good-looking people
have sought out other intelligent, healthy and good-looking
people with the goal of raising a family with perhaps five or
ten intelligent, healthy and good-looking kids. More
recently, large families have gone out of style and only the
"less favoured" are left to produce a significant number of
children. Discuss possible outcomes of this?
Discussion is impossible without first defining what you mean
by "intelligence." (If you can come up with one - and only one
- that is universally accepted, and has some objective meaning,
you will be, literally, the most brilliant researching in the
history of the field.)
--
Terry Austin
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB
"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek
Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.
For those that don't buy into the "it's just a number" story,
Wikipedia
Well, wikipedia, the popularity contest for factoids, where actual
facts are not welcome.

Sure.

My poitn stands, unchallenged.
has a reasonable explanation at
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intelligence_quotient#General_facto
r_(g) that describes how what IQ tests measured was designed to
be a common factor that statistics showed was correlated to
ability at a variety of school subjects (one of the first
examples of what I suspect was Principal Components Analysis).
So it should be no surprise that people who score well in IQ
tests tend to do well at academic subjects in school.
I also note since IQ is inheritable
It's not, by and large.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heritability_of_IQ it is measuring
something we evolved and it would be very odd for us to evolve
something which had no other purpose than passing tests only
invented millennia after the ability evolved.
You are an idiot.
--
Terry Austin

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.
Robert Carnegie
2018-06-21 20:12:17 UTC
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Post by John Halpenny
Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
The only thing an IQ test measures is the ability to take an IQ test.
I don't think that an IQ test is a great measure of your worth as a person, or that declining scores are a sign of the end of the world.
For centuries, intelligent, healthy and good-looking people have sought out other intelligent, healthy and good-looking people with the goal of raising a family with perhaps five or ten intelligent, healthy and good-looking kids. More recently, large families have gone out of style and only the "less favoured" are left to produce a significant number of children. Discuss possible outcomes of this?
John
I don't think that ugly people are going to overwhelm
the likes of you (I assume you count yourself amongst
the good-looking). Well, unless they compensate
with high sexual availability. But wouldn't that
require being smart?
Dorothy J Heydt
2018-06-21 20:43:50 UTC
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Post by John Halpenny
On Wednesday, June 20, 2018 at 5:40:51 PM UTC-4, Jibini Kula Tumbili
Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
The only thing an IQ test measures is the ability to take an IQ test.
I don't think that an IQ test is a great measure of your worth as a
person, or that declining scores are a sign of the end of the world.
For centuries, intelligent, healthy and good-looking people have
sought out other intelligent, healthy and good-looking people with the
goal of raising a family with perhaps five or ten intelligent, healthy
and good-looking kids. More recently, large families have gone out of
style and only the "less favoured" are left to produce a significant
number of children. Discuss possible outcomes of this?
John
I don't think that ugly people are going to overwhelm
the likes of you (I assume you count yourself amongst
the good-looking). Well, unless they compensate
with high sexual availability. But wouldn't that
require being smart?
Wait a minute. "High sexual availability" is equated with "being
smart"???

Maybe, if you are male and equate "being smart" with "knowing
ninety-seven different ways of conning someone who doesn't want
to go to bed with you into doing so anyway."

If you are female, "being smart" equates to "examining all
possible mates for suitable characteristics", which include
"being able to support your kids into adulthood," which nowadays
equates to "reaching at least the age of eighteen, but preferably
finishing college and maybe graduate school."

Always assuming you don't live in a culture where your father can
trade you to another guy (whereupon you will have to go to bed
with his son and bear his grandchildren), in exchange for a cow
or something.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Robert Carnegie
2018-06-21 21:39:01 UTC
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Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by John Halpenny
On Wednesday, June 20, 2018 at 5:40:51 PM UTC-4, Jibini Kula Tumbili
Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
The only thing an IQ test measures is the ability to take an IQ test.
I don't think that an IQ test is a great measure of your worth as a
person, or that declining scores are a sign of the end of the world.
For centuries, intelligent, healthy and good-looking people have
sought out other intelligent, healthy and good-looking people with the
goal of raising a family with perhaps five or ten intelligent, healthy
and good-looking kids. More recently, large families have gone out of
style and only the "less favoured" are left to produce a significant
number of children. Discuss possible outcomes of this?
John
I don't think that ugly people are going to overwhelm
the likes of you (I assume you count yourself amongst
the good-looking). Well, unless they compensate
with high sexual availability. But wouldn't that
require being smart?
Wait a minute. "High sexual availability" is equated with "being
smart"???
Maybe, if you are male and equate "being smart" with "knowing
ninety-seven different ways of conning someone who doesn't want
to go to bed with you into doing so anyway."
If you are female, "being smart" equates to "examining all
possible mates for suitable characteristics", which include
"being able to support your kids into adulthood," which nowadays
equates to "reaching at least the age of eighteen, but preferably
finishing college and maybe graduate school."
Always assuming you don't live in a culture where your father can
trade you to another guy (whereupon you will have to go to bed
with his son and bear his grandchildren), in exchange for a cow
or something.
No no no. I was responding to John Halpenny's concern
that stupid ugly diseased people will out-breed fine
specimens like you and me and he. He is overlooking the
fact that they won't find anyone to breed with, because
everyone wants to breed, or specifically to copulate,
with the healthy, good-looking, and possibly intelligent
people. But those people don't want to copulate with
him. Probably the stupid ugly diseased people also don't
want to, but whoever does may receive economic support
in return - for oneself as well as for offspring.

I meant to propose, but not seriously, that the inferiors
that John and I are speaking of would not achieve that
insight. But in fact it is not really a mysterious matter.
Kevrob
2018-06-21 21:59:47 UTC
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Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by John Halpenny
On Wednesday, June 20, 2018 at 5:40:51 PM UTC-4, Jibini Kula Tumbili
Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
The only thing an IQ test measures is the ability to take an IQ test.
I don't think that an IQ test is a great measure of your worth as a
person, or that declining scores are a sign of the end of the world.
For centuries, intelligent, healthy and good-looking people have
sought out other intelligent, healthy and good-looking people with the
goal of raising a family with perhaps five or ten intelligent, healthy
and good-looking kids. More recently, large families have gone out of
style and only the "less favoured" are left to produce a significant
number of children. Discuss possible outcomes of this?
John
I don't think that ugly people are going to overwhelm
the likes of you (I assume you count yourself amongst
the good-looking). Well, unless they compensate
with high sexual availability. But wouldn't that
require being smart?
Wait a minute. "High sexual availability" is equated with "being
smart"???
Maybe, if you are male and equate "being smart" with "knowing
ninety-seven different ways of conning someone who doesn't want
to go to bed with you into doing so anyway."
If you are female, "being smart" equates to "examining all
possible mates for suitable characteristics", which include
"being able to support your kids into adulthood," which nowadays
equates to "reaching at least the age of eighteen, but preferably
finishing college and maybe graduate school."
Always assuming you don't live in a culture where your father can
trade you to another guy (whereupon you will have to go to bed
with his son and bear his grandchildren), in exchange for a cow
or something.
No no no. I was responding to John Halpenny's concern
that stupid ugly diseased people will out-breed fine
specimens like you and me and he. He is overlooking the
fact that they won't find anyone to breed with, because
everyone wants to breed, or specifically to copulate,
with the healthy, good-looking, and possibly intelligent
people. But those people don't want to copulate with
him. Probably the stupid ugly diseased people also don't
want to, but whoever does may receive economic support
in return - for oneself as well as for offspring.
I meant to propose, but not seriously, that the inferiors
that John and I are speaking of would not achieve that
insight. But in fact it is not really a mysterious matter.
With the advent of birth control technology, couldn't there
be a bias against early adapters and rigorous practitioners
of planned pregnancy to "underbreed" the less sophisticated,
who knock up/get knocked up by their partners and have children
they didn't plan on, and maybe more than the would have in a lifetime,
had they planned their breeding?

It's only one factor, and others, like frequency of abortion,
any bias towards higher infant or child mortality among these
self-same "reproductive dum-dums," etc., might well offset it.
The demographic transition model is built around the idea that
the more well-to-do are satisfied with fewer children who are
likelier to live than in past eras, to whose upbringing significant
resources can be dedicated, compared to turning out a lot of poor
kids, some of whom survive to care for Ma and Pa in old age.

Kevin R
John Halpenny
2018-06-22 01:28:34 UTC
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Birth control, modern medicine and expensive college have certainly changed the situation, but have they changed it enough? If I have one child and all of the advantages of modern technology, and you have 10 kids and 5 of then die, your kids still outnumber mine, and your grandchildren will outnumber mine by 25 to 1. Since I can't say that this is a good or bad thing, perhaps we shouldn't even talk about it.

It all boils down to Darwin's Law, which is, to paraphrase only slightly, "Whoever raises the most babies wins."

John
Dorothy J Heydt
2018-06-22 03:53:56 UTC
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Post by John Halpenny
Birth control, modern medicine and expensive college have certainly
changed the situation, but have they changed it enough? If I have one
child and all of the advantages of modern technology, and you have 10
kids and 5 of then die, your kids still outnumber mine, and your
grandchildren will outnumber mine by 25 to 1. Since I can't say that
this is a good or bad thing, perhaps we shouldn't even talk about it.
It all boils down to Darwin's Law, which is, to paraphrase only
slightly, "Whoever raises the most babies wins."
Actuall, it's whoever has the most *grandchildren* lives.

Take into account that if you have two children and they both live
to grow up and have children of their own, you're doing better than
if you have nine children and eight of them die young and the
ninth has one child before she dies.

This is why humans are so philoprogenitive. We were an endangered
species for a long time. The lion on the leopard and the hyena
and the Dinofelis and the plasmodium of malaria all wanted to have
us for lunch, and frequently did.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Greg Goss
2018-06-26 06:25:41 UTC
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Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by John Halpenny
It all boils down to Darwin's Law, which is, to paraphrase only
slightly, "Whoever raises the most babies wins."
Actuall, it's whoever has the most *grandchildren* lives.
I have no children, but have four nieces and nephews. At 0.25
relatedness (assuming that everyone was faithful) times four, that
means that my Darwin Number would be 1.0 = breakeven.

Unless you insist on that "grandkids" level. Two of them don't have
kids and the other two are still too young to have had kids yet.
--
We are geeks. Resistance is voltage over current.
Dorothy J Heydt
2018-06-26 14:49:05 UTC
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Post by Greg Goss
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by John Halpenny
It all boils down to Darwin's Law, which is, to paraphrase only
slightly, "Whoever raises the most babies wins."
Actuall, it's whoever has the most *grandchildren* lives.
True. And one of the things that hominins developed over time
was longer lifespans so that an individual too old to reproduce
can still help take care of the grandchildren.

I'm doing that now, in fact; Hal and I live with our daughter and
son-in-law and are daycare for our grandson. (We have another
grandson, but he lives in New York and we've yet to meet him.)
Post by Greg Goss
I have no children, but have four nieces and nephews. At 0.25
relatedness (assuming that everyone was faithful) times four, that
means that my Darwin Number would be 1.0 = breakeven.
Unless you insist on that "grandkids" level. Two of them don't have
kids and the other two are still too young to have had kids yet.
You never know; the younger ones might make you a great-uncle
yet.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Greg Goss
2018-06-27 14:32:15 UTC
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Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Greg Goss
I have no children, but have four nieces and nephews. At 0.25
relatedness (assuming that everyone was faithful) times four, that
means that my Darwin Number would be 1.0 = breakeven.
Unless you insist on that "grandkids" level. Two of them don't have
kids and the other two are still too young to have had kids yet.
You never know; the younger ones might make you a great-uncle
yet.
The eldest of the four is getting married in a month and a half. That
will likely change the odds dramatically.
--
We are geeks. Resistance is voltage over current.
Juho Julkunen
2018-06-22 11:23:21 UTC
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Post by John Halpenny
Birth control, modern medicine and expensive college have certainly changed the situation, but have they changed it enough? If I have one child and all of the advantages of modern technology, and you have 10 kids and 5 of then die, your kids still outnumber mine, and your grandchildren will outnumber mine by 25 to 1. Since I can't say that this is a good or bad thing, perhaps we shouldn't even talk about it.
Three things:

1) Genetics of intelligence, which still lacks a satisfactory
definition, are complicated.

2) Smart parents tend to have less smart children, and dumb parents
tend to have smarter children, because reversion to the mean is a
thing.

3) The elite have worried about the unchecked procreation of the
unwashed masses dumbing the population down for at least two centuries,
quite possibly a lot longer.
--
Juho Julkunen
Dimensional Traveler
2018-06-22 14:49:25 UTC
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Post by Juho Julkunen
Post by John Halpenny
Birth control, modern medicine and expensive college have certainly changed the situation, but have they changed it enough? If I have one child and all of the advantages of modern technology, and you have 10 kids and 5 of then die, your kids still outnumber mine, and your grandchildren will outnumber mine by 25 to 1. Since I can't say that this is a good or bad thing, perhaps we shouldn't even talk about it.
1) Genetics of intelligence, which still lacks a satisfactory
definition, are complicated.
2) Smart parents tend to have less smart children, and dumb parents
tend to have smarter children, because reversion to the mean is a
thing.
3) The elite have worried about the unchecked procreation of the
unwashed masses dumbing the population down for at least two centuries,
quite possibly a lot longer.
4) People have been complaining about the decline and imminent fall of
civilization since Sumer was founded.
--
Inquiring minds want to know while minds with a self-preservation
instinct are running screaming.
John Halpenny
2018-06-22 16:11:07 UTC
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Post by Dimensional Traveler
4) People have been complaining about the decline and imminent fall of
civilization since Sumer was founded.
Almost all of the civilizations since Sumer have declined and fallen. New ones have taken over, and then rewritten the history books to explain why they were so much better than the old ones.

John
Dorothy J Heydt
2018-06-22 16:43:30 UTC
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Post by John Halpenny
Post by Dimensional Traveler
4) People have been complaining about the decline and imminent fall of
civilization since Sumer was founded.
Almost all of the civilizations since Sumer have declined and fallen.
New ones have taken over, and then rewritten the history books to
explain why they were so much better than the old ones.
Just as people have written books to explain why we mammals are
so much better than the dinosaurs were.

(Because back on the day of the asteroid, we were tiny furry
things that didn't need as much food to keep us alive.)

C. S. Lewis says (I think in _Suprised by Joy_), there have been
civilized people in all eras. And they have always been
surrounded by barbarians.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
James Nicoll
2018-06-22 17:13:27 UTC
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Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by John Halpenny
Post by Dimensional Traveler
4) People have been complaining about the decline and imminent fall of
civilization since Sumer was founded.
Almost all of the civilizations since Sumer have declined and fallen.
New ones have taken over, and then rewritten the history books to
explain why they were so much better than the old ones.
Just as people have written books to explain why we mammals are
so much better than the dinosaurs were.
(Because back on the day of the asteroid, we were tiny furry
things that didn't need as much food to keep us alive.)
Having got pushed aside after the End Permian and the Carnian Pluvial Event's
Big Rain.
--
My reviews can be found at http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/
My Dreamwidth at https://james-davis-nicoll.dreamwidth.org/
My patreon is at https://www.patreon.com/jamesdnicoll
Greg Goss
2018-06-26 06:28:56 UTC
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Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by John Halpenny
Post by Dimensional Traveler
4) People have been complaining about the decline and imminent fall of
civilization since Sumer was founded.
Almost all of the civilizations since Sumer have declined and fallen.
New ones have taken over, and then rewritten the history books to
explain why they were so much better than the old ones.
Just as people have written books to explain why we mammals are
so much better than the dinosaurs were.
(Because back on the day of the asteroid, we were tiny furry
things that didn't need as much food to keep us alive.)
I've seen claims that re-entering crud from the splash set pretty much
the entire planet's sky on "bake". So the only things that survived
were ones that were in burrows or under water. AND were small enough
to live on restricted food supplies.

(And that was a minor extinction to the one a quarter billion years
ago.)
--
We are geeks. Resistance is voltage over current.
Jaimie Vandenbergh
2018-06-23 09:50:49 UTC
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Post by Juho Julkunen
Post by John Halpenny
Birth control, modern medicine and expensive college have certainly changed the situation, but have they changed it enough? If I have one child and all of the advantages of modern technology, and you have 10 kids and 5 of then die, your kids still outnumber mine, and your grandchildren will outnumber mine by 25 to 1. Since I can't say that this is a good or bad thing, perhaps we shouldn't even talk about it.
1) Genetics of intelligence, which still lacks a satisfactory
definition, are complicated.
2) Smart parents tend to have less smart children, and dumb parents
tend to have smarter children, because reversion to the mean is a
thing.
3) The elite have worried about the unchecked procreation of the
unwashed masses dumbing the population down for at least two centuries,
quite possibly a lot longer.
The elite are not necessarily any brighter than the unwashed masses,
either. Luckier, perhaps, but outside of Known Space that isn't a
heritable characteristic (although trust funds can be).

Cheers - Jaimie
--
Okay, it works now. Or at least it malfunctions in all the expected ways.
-- Mark Edwards, asr
D B Davis
2018-06-23 13:34:54 UTC
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Post by Jaimie Vandenbergh
Post by Juho Julkunen
Post by John Halpenny
Birth control, modern medicine and expensive college have certainly
changed the situation, but have they changed it enough? If I have
one child and all of the advantages of modern technology, and you
have 10 kids and 5 of then die, your kids still outnumber mine, and
your grandchildren will outnumber mine by 25 to 1. Since I can't say
that this is a good or bad thing, perhaps we shouldn't even talk
about it.
1) Genetics of intelligence, which still lacks a satisfactory
definition, are complicated.
2) Smart parents tend to have less smart children, and dumb parents
tend to have smarter children, because reversion to the mean is a
thing.
3) The elite have worried about the unchecked procreation of the
unwashed masses dumbing the population down for at least two centuries,
quite possibly a lot longer.
The elite are not necessarily any brighter than the unwashed masses,
either. Luckier, perhaps, but outside of Known Space that isn't a
heritable characteristic (although trust funds can be).
Callidetic [1] genes may also play a role on Earth, where only males who
"get lucky" (so to speak) with the fairer sex are allowed to procreate.

Note.

1. "The Weapon Shops of Isher" (van Vogt) uses "callidetic" to describe
people with endemic, chronic, good luck. One of the things that's on my
back-burner is to figure out that word's etymology.
It originally struck me as a combination of calli + detic. Calli
comes from the Greek word Kallos 'beauty,' which left the suffix detic
behind as an enigmatic part of the puzzle.
This morning, a combination of callid + etic seems more plausible.
Although the callid prefix doesn't appear in my _Oxford Dictionary_, it
does appear online [1]. It means "characterized by cunning or
shrewdness; crafty." For our purposes, the suffix etic more-or-less
means "outside of society" or "outsider."
Following this line-of-thought, callidetic means "crafty outsider."
There's also a fly-in-the-ointment. The prefix comes from Latin while
the suffix comes from Greek. Does that sort of thing happen in the
English language?

Note.

1. https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/callid



Thank you,
--
Don
Robert Carnegie
2018-06-23 14:13:25 UTC
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Post by D B Davis
Post by Jaimie Vandenbergh
Post by Juho Julkunen
Post by John Halpenny
Birth control, modern medicine and expensive college have certainly
changed the situation, but have they changed it enough? If I have
one child and all of the advantages of modern technology, and you
have 10 kids and 5 of then die, your kids still outnumber mine, and
your grandchildren will outnumber mine by 25 to 1. Since I can't say
that this is a good or bad thing, perhaps we shouldn't even talk
about it.
1) Genetics of intelligence, which still lacks a satisfactory
definition, are complicated.
2) Smart parents tend to have less smart children, and dumb parents
tend to have smarter children, because reversion to the mean is a
thing.
3) The elite have worried about the unchecked procreation of the
unwashed masses dumbing the population down for at least two centuries,
quite possibly a lot longer.
The elite are not necessarily any brighter than the unwashed masses,
either. Luckier, perhaps, but outside of Known Space that isn't a
heritable characteristic (although trust funds can be).
Callidetic [1] genes may also play a role on Earth, where only males who
"get lucky" (so to speak) with the fairer sex are allowed to procreate.
Note.
1. "The Weapon Shops of Isher" (van Vogt) uses "callidetic" to describe
people with endemic, chronic, good luck. One of the things that's on my
back-burner is to figure out that word's etymology.
It originally struck me as a combination of calli + detic. Calli
comes from the Greek word Kallos 'beauty,' which left the suffix detic
behind as an enigmatic part of the puzzle.
This morning, a combination of callid + etic seems more plausible.
Although the callid prefix doesn't appear in my _Oxford Dictionary_, it
does appear online [1]. It means "characterized by cunning or
shrewdness; crafty." For our purposes, the suffix etic more-or-less
means "outside of society" or "outsider."
Following this line-of-thought, callidetic means "crafty outsider."
There's also a fly-in-the-ointment. The prefix comes from Latin while
the suffix comes from Greek. Does that sort of thing happen in the
English language?
Note.
1. https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/callid
We /were/ talking about "hybrid words" quite recently. Me:
<https://groups.google.com/forum/#!original/rec.arts.sf.written/lxn5QUWwz4Q/gd48z1EABAAJ>
D B Davis
2018-06-23 15:35:05 UTC
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<snip>
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by D B Davis
Note.
1. "The Weapon Shops of Isher" (van Vogt) uses "callidetic" to describe
people with endemic, chronic, good luck. One of the things that's on my
back-burner is to figure out that word's etymology.
It originally struck me as a combination of calli + detic. Calli
comes from the Greek word Kallos 'beauty,' which left the suffix detic
behind as an enigmatic part of the puzzle.
This morning, a combination of callid + etic seems more plausible.
Although the callid prefix doesn't appear in my _Oxford Dictionary_, it
does appear online [1]. It means "characterized by cunning or
shrewdness; crafty." For our purposes, the suffix etic more-or-less
means "outside of society" or "outsider."
Following this line-of-thought, callidetic means "crafty outsider."
There's also a fly-in-the-ointment. The prefix comes from Latin while
the suffix comes from Greek. Does that sort of thing happen in the
English language?
Note.
1. https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/callid
<https://groups.google.com/forum/#!original/rec.arts.sf.written/lxn5QUWwz4Q/gd48z1EABAAJ>
google doesn't work for me these days because it uses too many unknown,
and therefore untrusted, java scripts from all over creation. (You know
me :0) ) OTOH, a plain vanilla search of my personal usenet archive
seems to reveal the pertinent thread. This link may, or may not, work
from within a newsreader: news:eec75cc7-4b81-410f-ae9e-***@googlegroups.com

In the end, a Roman-Grecian "hybrid word" is OK. With the disclaimer
that it's potentially a "barbarous neologism" according to Henry
Havelock Ellis (as Kevrob points out in his followup to my question).
Your own erudite contribution to that other thread didn't fully
register with me until now.



Thank you,
--
Don
Jaimie Vandenbergh
2018-06-23 16:13:47 UTC
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Post by D B Davis
google doesn't work for me these days because it uses too many unknown,
and therefore untrusted, java scripts from all over creation. (You know
me :0) )
Have you tried duckduckgo for searching? They're of the same mind.
https://duckduckgo.com/

Cheers - Jaimie
--
"We've heard that a million monkeys at a million keyboards could produce
the Complete Works of Shakespeare. Now, thanks to the Internet, we know
this is not true." - Robert Wilensky, University of California
D B Davis
2018-06-24 16:27:18 UTC
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Post by Jaimie Vandenbergh
Post by D B Davis
google doesn't work for me these days because it uses too many unknown,
and therefore untrusted, java scripts from all over creation. (You know
me :0) )
Have you tried duckduckgo for searching? They're of the same mind.
https://duckduckgo.com/
Do you remember scroogle.org? It sure was a hoot, while it lasted.
duckduckgo's actually my go-to search engine these days. But, it,
along with just about every other search engine, returns far too much
noise unless you include a double-quote "" somewhere in your search
phrase and lock it down to a worthy website with the site: argument
(eg site:freebsd.org). But even duckduckgo doesn't work too well with
usenet for me.

https://duckduckgo.com/html/&q="barbarous+neologism"+rec.arts.sf.written+site:groups.google.com

ultimately links to groups.google.com and its mandatory, unknown,
untrusted scripts.

https://duckduckgo.com/html/&q="barbarous+neologism"+site:rec.arts.sf.written.narkive.com
https://duckduckgo.com/html/&q="barbarous+neologism"+rec.arts.sf.written+site:narkive.com

also do not seem to work right, for me.



Thank you,
--
Don
Kevrob
2018-06-23 14:49:21 UTC
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Post by D B Davis
Following this line-of-thought, callidetic means "crafty outsider."
There's also a fly-in-the-ointment. The prefix comes from Latin while
the suffix comes from Greek. Does that sort of thing happen in the
English language?
Note.
1. https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/callid
This came up recently. Search on "barbarous neologism,"
or, less judgmentally, "hybrid word."

Television would be one example.

Kevin R
Steve Dodds
2018-06-20 22:42:31 UTC
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Post by a425couple
from
http://bigthink.com/brandon-weber/every-10-years-humans-got-smarter-thats-now-reversing
For most of history, humans got smarter. That's now reversing.
June 14, 2018  by BRANDON A. WEBER
Article Image
The Flynn effect appears to be in retrograde. (Credit: Shutterstock/Big
Think)
There's a new study out of Norway that indicates our—well, technically,
their—IQs are shrinking, to the tune of about seven IQ points per
generation.
Scientists from Norway's Ragnar Frisch Centre for Economic Research
analyzed 730,000 IQ tests given to Norwegian men before compulsory
military service from 1970 to 2009, and this is their conclusion.
If the trend continues—indeed, if it's even real—that means about 10
generations from now, we'll see a slow decline that actually means IQs
at the top end will drop from >130 ("Very Superior")," to <69
("Extremely Low"). Kinda terrifying, isn't it?
It's a reversal of what's known as the Flynn effect, named after the
psychologist who first noticed that IQs increased in at least the first
part of the 20th century.
There are a host of potential explanations that are still being
explored, all the way from environmental problems and diet to lack of
exercise and staring at screens.
But one that actually seems a more genuine culprit is this: IQ tests are
designed to rely more upon rote memorization whereas schools and even
electronic devices used by students rely on the ability to find things
via Google and other means, which may indicate there is no real change
in intelligence but rather in how younger people learn these days.
However, the scientists Bernt Bratsberg and Ole Rogeberg have written a
paper making the strong case that the decrease is environmental (and one
of them actually talks about the IQ test possibility).
This is the plot of the movie "Idiotcracy"
Lynn McGuire
2018-06-20 23:01:05 UTC
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Post by a425couple
from
http://bigthink.com/brandon-weber/every-10-years-humans-got-smarter-thats-now-reversing
For most of history, humans got smarter. That's now reversing.
June 14, 2018  by BRANDON A. WEBER
Article Image
The Flynn effect appears to be in retrograde. (Credit: Shutterstock/Big
Think)
There's a new study out of Norway that indicates our—well, technically,
their—IQs are shrinking, to the tune of about seven IQ points per
generation.
...

Ah, the premise for the awesome movie "Idiocracy":
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0387808/
and
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idiocracy

"Private Joe Bauers, the definition of "average American", is selected
by the Pentagon to be the guinea pig for a top-secret hibernation
program. Forgotten, he awakes five centuries in the future. He discovers
a society so incredibly dumbed down that he's easily the most
intelligent person alive. "

I just want to know where I can buy the recliner with the builtin toilet
so I don't have to get up to go to the bathroom !

Lynn
Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
2018-06-20 23:16:05 UTC
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Post by Lynn McGuire
I just want to know where I can buy the recliner with the
builtin toilet so I don't have to get up to go to the bathroom !
I suspect Amazon has them. Certainly, they exist. They're usually
called something like "gamer's chairs."
--
Terry Austin

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.
Ahasuerus
2018-06-23 02:20:52 UTC
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Post by a425couple
from
http://bigthink.com/brandon-weber/every-10-years-humans-got-smarter-thats-now-reversing
For most of history, humans got smarter. That's now reversing.
[snip-snip]

My robot tells me not to worry about it. After all, humans have
already created robots; anything else they might do would be a nice
but decidedly optional bonus. Humans might as well kick back, relax,
play computer games and watch (computer-animated) superhero movies.
a***@yahoo.com
2018-06-24 16:40:50 UTC
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Post by a425couple
from
http://bigthink.com/brandon-weber/every-10-years-humans-got-smarter-thats-now-reversing
For most of history, humans got smarter. That's now reversing.
June 14, 2018 by BRANDON A. WEBER
Article Image
The Flynn effect appears to be in retrograde. (Credit: Shutterstock/Big
Think)
There's a new study out of Norway that indicates our—well, technically,
their—IQs are shrinking, to the tune of about seven IQ points per
generation.
Mine has been going down 7 points a year. I tried that "Double your IQ or no money back" offer, but it didn't help. At least I had a Groupon.
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