Discussion:
OT true - Musk plans city on Mars
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a425couple
2017-06-24 16:05:32 UTC
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Musk plans city on Mars
June 23, 2017 Sarah Knapton

Elon Musk Picture: supplied
A city on Mars with a million inhabitants could be achievable within 50
years, South African space entrepreneur Elon Musk has forecast, as he
laid out plans to turn mankind into a multi-planetary species.

The SpaceX founder warned that humans would need to venture away from
Earth to avoid a “Doomsday event” and our “eventual extinction”.

But he said that a huge Martian city could be established this century,
which would not just be an outpost, but a fully functioning society with
“iron foundries and pizza joints”.

Musk is planning the first manned flight to Mars in 2023 and has said he
wants to die on Mars, although he has stipulated “not on impact”.

Under plans published in the journal New Space, the billionaire said he
hoped to build a “Mars Colonial Fleet” of more than 1 000 cargo ships
with 200 passengers each and materials to build homes, industrial plants
and shops.

He claimed that the first colonists could begin setting out in a decade,
and said it would take between 40 and 100 years to populate a city.

He said: “One path is we stay on Earth forever, and then there will be
some eventual extinction.

“The alternative is to become a space-faring civilisation and a
multi-planetary species.”

Nasa has also said it is planning to establish a Mars colony by the
2030s, although it plans to establish a base on the Moon and other
stepping stones first, and the Mars One project, set up by a nonprofit
organisation based in the Netherlands, has proposed to establish a
permanent human colony there by 2027. – The Daily Telegraph

http://www.heraldlive.co.za/my-heraldlive/2017/06/23/musk-plans-city-mars/
David Johnston
2017-06-24 21:07:15 UTC
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Post by a425couple
Musk plans city on Mars
June 23, 2017 Sarah Knapton
Elon Musk Picture: supplied
A city on Mars with a million inhabitants could be achievable within 50
years, South African space entrepreneur Elon Musk has forecast,
<snort> Elon Musk is full of crap. So's NASA.
J. Clarke
2017-06-24 21:09:50 UTC
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Post by David Johnston
Post by a425couple
Musk plans city on Mars
June 23, 2017 Sarah Knapton
Elon Musk Picture: supplied
A city on Mars with a million inhabitants could be achievable within 50
years, South African space entrepreneur Elon Musk has forecast,
<snort> Elon Musk is full of crap. So's NASA.
NASA's stuck in the '60s but what's your beef with Musk?
Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
2017-06-24 22:06:58 UTC
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On Saturday, June 24, 2017 at 10:06:02 AM UTC-6, a425couple
Post by a425couple
Musk plans city on Mars
June 23, 2017 Sarah Knapton
Elon Musk Picture: supplied
A city on Mars with a million inhabitants could be achievable
within 50 years, South African space entrepreneur Elon Musk
has forecast,
<snort> Elon Musk is full of crap. So's NASA.
NASA's stuck in the '60s but what's your beef with Musk?
He's full of crap. Haven't we laughted at this before? A thousand
reusable ships? At how much per ship per trip? There isn't that much
money.

He also thinks he's going to be allowed to dig private subway tunnels
under Los Angeles with lawsuits lasting less than his lifetime, which
is even funnier. It's like he wants to grow up to be a Bond villian.
--
Terry Austin

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.
m***@sky.com
2017-06-25 04:53:18 UTC
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Post by Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
In article
On Saturday, June 24, 2017 at 10:06:02 AM UTC-6, a425couple
Post by a425couple
Musk plans city on Mars
June 23, 2017 Sarah Knapton
Elon Musk Picture: supplied
A city on Mars with a million inhabitants could be achievable
within 50 years, South African space entrepreneur Elon Musk
has forecast,
<snort> Elon Musk is full of crap. So's NASA.
NASA's stuck in the '60s but what's your beef with Musk?
He's full of crap. Haven't we laughted at this before? A thousand
reusable ships? At how much per ship per trip? There isn't that much
money.
He also thinks he's going to be allowed to dig private subway tunnels
under Los Angeles with lawsuits lasting less than his lifetime, which
is even funnier. It's like he wants to grow up to be a Bond villian.
--
Terry Austin
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB
"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek
Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.
For Los Angeles it's possible it will take him twenty years to wade through the bureaucracy and come out with an environmental impact statement. For South Korea, he might be starting work next year - http://www.cnbc.com/2017/06/20/hyperloop-transportation-technologies-licensing-deal-with-south-korea.html
Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
2017-06-25 18:51:25 UTC
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On Saturday, June 24, 2017 at 11:06:55 PM UTC+1, Gutless
Post by Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
In article
Post by David Johnston
Post by a425couple
Musk plans city on Mars
June 23, 2017 Sarah Knapton
Elon Musk Picture: supplied
A city on Mars with a million inhabitants could be
achievable within 50 years, South African space
entrepreneur Elon Musk has forecast,
<snort> Elon Musk is full of crap. So's NASA.
NASA's stuck in the '60s but what's your beef with Musk?
He's full of crap. Haven't we laughted at this before? A
thousand reusable ships? At how much per ship per trip? There
isn't that much money.
He also thinks he's going to be allowed to dig private subway
tunnels under Los Angeles with lawsuits lasting less than his
lifetime, which is even funnier. It's like he wants to grow up
to be a Bond villian.
--
Terry Austin
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB
"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek
Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.
For Los Angeles it's possible it will take him twenty years to
wade through the bureaucracy and come out with an environmental
impact statement.
And that's when the lawsuits will start.
For South Korea, he might be starting work
next year -
http://www.cnbc.com/2017/06/20/hyperloop-transportation-technolog
ies-licensing-deal-with-south-korea.html
The Hyperloop is not the same thing as his private subway tunnels,
which is has pretty much said he wants to do because he doesn't
like sitting in traffic.

(And the Hyperlook itself is doomed to failure. The first time
there's an implosion from the vacuum being breached, people are
going to prison. Even in South Korea. And the article itself quotes
the guy in charge of the company as saying "It's not set in stone
yet." Multiple times. If constructions starts next year it won't be
on anything remotely like Musk's vision.)
--
Terry Austin

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.
David Johnston
2017-06-24 23:13:41 UTC
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Post by J. Clarke
Post by David Johnston
Post by a425couple
Musk plans city on Mars
June 23, 2017 Sarah Knapton
Elon Musk Picture: supplied
A city on Mars with a million inhabitants could be achievable within 50
years, South African space entrepreneur Elon Musk has forecast,
<snort> Elon Musk is full of crap. So's NASA.
NASA's stuck in the '60s but what's your beef with Musk?
Just the obvious. A city with a million inhabitants on Mars isn't achievable within 50 years. It might be remotely feasible to have a village with a hundred inhabitants. Not likely but possible.
Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
2017-06-24 23:39:02 UTC
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Post by David Johnston
In article
On Saturday, June 24, 2017 at 10:06:02 AM UTC-6, a425couple
Post by a425couple
Musk plans city on Mars
June 23, 2017 Sarah Knapton
Elon Musk Picture: supplied
A city on Mars with a million inhabitants could be
achievable within 50 years, South African space
entrepreneur Elon Musk has forecast,
<snort> Elon Musk is full of crap. So's NASA.
NASA's stuck in the '60s but what's your beef with Musk?
Just the obvious. A city with a million inhabitants on Mars
isn't achievable within 50 years. It might be remotely feasible
to have a village with a hundred inhabitants. Not likely but
possible.
If half of them were born there.
--
Terry Austin

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.
J. Clarke
2017-06-24 23:59:24 UTC
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Post by David Johnston
Post by J. Clarke
Post by David Johnston
Post by a425couple
Musk plans city on Mars
June 23, 2017 Sarah Knapton
Elon Musk Picture: supplied
A city on Mars with a million inhabitants could be achievable within 50
years, South African space entrepreneur Elon Musk has forecast,
<snort> Elon Musk is full of crap. So's NASA.
NASA's stuck in the '60s but what's your beef with Musk?
Just the obvious. A city with a million inhabitants on Mars isn't achievable within 50 years. It might be remotely feasible to have a village with a hundred inhabitants. Not likely but possible.
Why isn?t it achievable? Because you say so? I suspect you're making a
lot of assumptions based on the capabilities of our incompetent government
and not on what SpaceX has working already or is planning.
David Johnston
2017-06-25 03:28:49 UTC
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Post by J. Clarke
Post by David Johnston
Post by J. Clarke
Post by David Johnston
Post by a425couple
Musk plans city on Mars
June 23, 2017 Sarah Knapton
Elon Musk Picture: supplied
A city on Mars with a million inhabitants could be achievable within 50
years, South African space entrepreneur Elon Musk has forecast,
<snort> Elon Musk is full of crap. So's NASA.
NASA's stuck in the '60s but what's your beef with Musk?
Just the obvious. A city with a million inhabitants on Mars isn't achievable within 50 years. It might be remotely feasible to have a village with a hundred inhabitants. Not likely but possible.
Why isn?t it achievable? Because you say so? I suspect you're making a
lot of assumptions based on the capabilities of our incompetent government
and not on what SpaceX has working already or is planning.
Nope. It's possible for an outfit like that to make a manned vessel capable of going to Mars. I'll buy that even though I'm confident that NASA would never get the funding for such an effort. I won't buy them being able to move hundreds of thousands of people over a Hohmann trajectory in only about 20 years using technology that hasn't even eally been invented yet. Nor the idea that the space-based industrial plant required to build a self-sustaining artificial habitat for that many people in only a couple of generations from absolute zero.

There's the issue of exactly what the economic basis is for the whole venture. Cities start to exist for a reason and fundamentally that reason is defined by the flow of traffic. You're on a river, or a bit of coastline containing a nice enclosure to use as a base for a port or on already existing road. You know...all the stuff that doesn't exist on Mars. We haven't even begun to explore Mars for exploitable resource and Elon Musk is predicting over a million people in 2 and a half generations? New York City was founded as Fort Nassau in 1614. It took 270 years for it to grow to a million people and New York City was located in the best possible geoeconomic conditions for population growth. That's why it's so damn big now. Right now we aren't at Fort Nassau. We aren't even at Henry Hudson sailing up the river. We're at...Portuguese fishermen just starting to arrive on the Grand Banks. If not Norsemen discovering the New World.

So Elon Musk is either bullshitting everyone, or is himself divorced from reality.
J. Clarke
2017-06-25 05:48:46 UTC
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Post by David Johnston
Post by J. Clarke
Post by David Johnston
Post by J. Clarke
Post by David Johnston
Post by a425couple
Musk plans city on Mars
June 23, 2017 Sarah Knapton
Elon Musk Picture: supplied
A city on Mars with a million inhabitants could be achievable within 50
years, South African space entrepreneur Elon Musk has forecast,
<snort> Elon Musk is full of crap. So's NASA.
NASA's stuck in the '60s but what's your beef with Musk?
Just the obvious. A city with a million inhabitants on Mars isn't achievable within 50 years. It might be remotely feasible to have a village with a hundred inhabitants. Not likely but possible.
Why isn?t it achievable? Because you say so? I suspect you're making a
lot of assumptions based on the capabilities of our incompetent government
and not on what SpaceX has working already or is planning.
Nope. It's possible for an outfit like that to make a manned vessel capable of going to Mars. I'll buy that even though I'm confident that NASA would never get the funding for such an effort. I won't buy them being able to move hundreds of thousands of people over a Hohmann trajectory in only about 20 years using technology that hasn't even eally been invented yet. Nor the idea that the space-based industrial plant required to build a self-sustaining artificial
habitat for that many people in only a couple of generations from absolute zero.
Post by David Johnston
There's the issue of exactly what the economic basis is for the whole venture. Cities start to exist for a reason and fundamentally that reason is defined by the flow of traffic. You're on a river, or a bit of coastline containing a nice enclosure to use as a base for a port or on already existing road. You know...all the stuff that doesn't exist on Mars. We haven't even begun to explore Mars for exploitable resource and Elon Musk is predicting over a million people
in 2 and a half generations? New York City was founded as Fort Nassau in 1614. It took 270 years for it to grow to a million people and New York City was located in the best possible geoeconomic conditions for population growth. That's why it's so damn big now. Right now we aren't at Fort Nassau. We aren't even at Henry Hudson sailing up the river. We're at...Portuguese fishermen just starting to arrive on the Grand Banks. If not Norsemen discovering the New World.
Post by David Johnston
So Elon Musk is either bullshitting everyone, or is himself divorced from reality.
They've said that before. And yet he keeps delivering.
Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
2017-06-25 19:06:14 UTC
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In article
On Saturday, June 24, 2017 at 5:59:25 PM UTC-6, J. Clarke
In article
On Saturday, June 24, 2017 at 3:09:52 PM UTC-6, J. Clarke
In article
On Saturday, June 24, 2017 at 10:06:02 AM UTC-6,
Post by a425couple
Musk plans city on Mars
June 23, 2017 Sarah Knapton
Elon Musk Picture: supplied
A city on Mars with a million inhabitants could be
achievable within 50 years, South African space
entrepreneur Elon Musk has forecast,
<snort> Elon Musk is full of crap. So's NASA.
NASA's stuck in the '60s but what's your beef with Musk?
Just the obvious. A city with a million inhabitants on
Mars isn't achievable within 50 years. It might be
remotely feasible to have a village with a hundred
inhabitants. Not likely but possible.
Why isn?t it achievable? Because you say so? I suspect
you're making a lot of assumptions based on the capabilities
of our incompetent government and not on what SpaceX has
working already or is planning.
Nope. It's possible for an outfit like that to make a manned
vessel capable of going to Mars. I'll buy that even though I'm
confident that NASA would never get the funding for such an
effort. I won't buy them being able to move hundreds of
thousands of people over a Hohmann trajectory in only about 20
years using technology that hasn't even eally been invented
yet. Nor the idea that the space-based industrial plant
required to build a self-sustaining artificial
habitat for that many people in only a couple of generations
from absolute zero.
There's the issue of exactly what the economic basis is for the
whole venture. Cities start to exist for a reason and
fundamentally that reason is defined by the flow of traffic.
You're on a river, or a bit of coastline containing a nice
enclosure to use as a base for a port or on already existing
road. You know...all the stuff that doesn't exist on Mars. We
haven't even begun to explore Mars for exploitable resource and
Elon Musk is predicting over a million people
in 2 and a half generations? New York City was founded as Fort
Nassau in 1614. It took 270 years for it to grow to a million
people and New York City was located in the best possible
geoeconomic conditions for population growth. That's why it's
so damn big now. Right now we aren't at Fort Nassau. We aren't
even at Henry Hudson sailing up the river. We're
at...Portuguese fishermen just starting to arrive on the Grand
Banks. If not Norsemen discovering the New World.
So Elon Musk is either bullshitting everyone, or is himself
divorced from reality.
They've said that before. And yet he keeps delivering.
What, precisely, has he delivered? The only notable business
success he's ever had that wasn't heavily subidized by the taxpayer
is PayPal, and he sold out his last shares to eBay fifteen years
ago. SpaceX wouldn't exist without government contracts that are
being heavily driven by the lack of any government owned launch
systems, and the subsequent embarassment of the US having to beg
the Russians for launch slots. Tesla is heavily subsizied, and
always has been. (Has it ever even turned a profit? If so, it's
fairly recent - and they're still subsidized.) Hyperlook is a comic
book fantasy. The Boring Company is an insane, stupid comic book
fantasy.
--
Terry Austin

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.
J. Clarke
2017-06-25 23:39:42 UTC
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In article <***@69.16.179.42>, ***@gmail.com
says...
Post by Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
In article
On Saturday, June 24, 2017 at 5:59:25 PM UTC-6, J. Clarke
In article
Post by David Johnston
In article
On Saturday, June 24, 2017 at 10:06:02 AM UTC-6,
Post by a425couple
Musk plans city on Mars
June 23, 2017 Sarah Knapton
Elon Musk Picture: supplied
A city on Mars with a million inhabitants could be
achievable within 50 years, South African space
entrepreneur Elon Musk has forecast,
<snort> Elon Musk is full of crap. So's NASA.
NASA's stuck in the '60s but what's your beef with Musk?
Just the obvious. A city with a million inhabitants on
Mars isn't achievable within 50 years. It might be
remotely feasible to have a village with a hundred
inhabitants. Not likely but possible.
Why isn?t it achievable? Because you say so? I suspect
you're making a lot of assumptions based on the capabilities
of our incompetent government and not on what SpaceX has
working already or is planning.
Nope. It's possible for an outfit like that to make a manned
vessel capable of going to Mars. I'll buy that even though I'm
confident that NASA would never get the funding for such an
effort. I won't buy them being able to move hundreds of
thousands of people over a Hohmann trajectory in only about 20
years using technology that hasn't even eally been invented
yet. Nor the idea that the space-based industrial plant
required to build a self-sustaining artificial
habitat for that many people in only a couple of generations
from absolute zero.
There's the issue of exactly what the economic basis is for the
whole venture. Cities start to exist for a reason and
fundamentally that reason is defined by the flow of traffic.
You're on a river, or a bit of coastline containing a nice
enclosure to use as a base for a port or on already existing
road. You know...all the stuff that doesn't exist on Mars. We
haven't even begun to explore Mars for exploitable resource and
Elon Musk is predicting over a million people
in 2 and a half generations? New York City was founded as Fort
Nassau in 1614. It took 270 years for it to grow to a million
people and New York City was located in the best possible
geoeconomic conditions for population growth. That's why it's
so damn big now. Right now we aren't at Fort Nassau. We aren't
even at Henry Hudson sailing up the river. We're
at...Portuguese fishermen just starting to arrive on the Grand
Banks. If not Norsemen discovering the New World.
So Elon Musk is either bullshitting everyone, or is himself
divorced from reality.
They've said that before. And yet he keeps delivering.
What, precisely, has he delivered?
If you have to ask you haven't been paying attention.

The first privately funded launcher to achieve orbit.
The first private company to launch, orbit, and recover a spacecraft.
The first organization of any kind to launch a payload into orbit and
recover the entire first stage booster intact.
The first organization of any kind to launch a payload into orbit and fly
the first stage booster back to the launch site under its own power.
The first organization of any kind to launch a payload into orbit on a
reused first stage booster.
Development of their entire launch system, including the engines, which are
not copies of '60s Russian designs or warmed over '60s US designs like
their competitors are using.
Post by Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
The only notable business
success he's ever had that wasn't heavily subidized by the taxpayer
is PayPal, and he sold out his last shares to eBay fifteen years
ago.
If you don't count SpaceX and Tesla.
Post by Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
SpaceX wouldn't exist without government contracts that are
being heavily driven by the lack of any government owned launch
systems, and the subsequent embarassment of the US having to beg
the Russians for launch slots.
Except that 2/3 of SpaceX's backlog is from commercial customers. And
SpaceX is not the only manufacturer of launch vehicles in the US you know.
Their competitor gets a billion dollars a year whether they launch anything
or not. Per launch SpaceX charges NASA about half what ULA charges.
Post by Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
Tesla is heavily subsizied, and
always has been. (Has it ever even turned a profit? If so, it's
fairly recent - and they're still subsidized.)
In 2009 Tesla got a loan from the government. The same year Ford got one
for ten times the amount and Nissan for three times. Tesla was the first
of the three to pay off the loan, in 2013. If Tesla is "heavily
subsidized" then Ford and Nissan are more so.

Tesla says that their gross margin is about 20% however they put that and
more into expanding the company.
Post by Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
Hyperlook is a comic
book fantasy.
Probably, whatever "Hyperlook" is. Sounds like a modeling agency. If you
mean Hyperloo_p_ what does that have to do with anything? He came up with
an idea, threw it out for discussion, and three organizations, none of
which include Elon Musk, ran with it.
Post by Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
The Boring Company is an insane, stupid comic book
fantasy.
What, making tunnel-digging more efficient is insane, stupid, and fantasy?
How do you figure?

Remind us again, what have _you_ done other than bitch on the Internet?
Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
2017-06-26 02:39:56 UTC
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Post by J. Clarke
Post by Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
In article
On Saturday, June 24, 2017 at 5:59:25 PM UTC-6, J. Clarke
In article
On Saturday, June 24, 2017 at 3:09:52 PM UTC-6, J.
In article
On Saturday, June 24, 2017 at 10:06:02 AM UTC-6,
Post by a425couple
Musk plans city on Mars
June 23, 2017 Sarah Knapton
Elon Musk Picture: supplied
A city on Mars with a million inhabitants could be
achievable within 50 years, South African space
entrepreneur Elon Musk has forecast,
<snort> Elon Musk is full of crap. So's NASA.
NASA's stuck in the '60s but what's your beef with
Musk?
Just the obvious. A city with a million inhabitants on
Mars isn't achievable within 50 years. It might be
remotely feasible to have a village with a hundred
inhabitants. Not likely but possible.
Why isn?t it achievable? Because you say so? I suspect
you're making a lot of assumptions based on the
capabilities of our incompetent government and not on what
SpaceX has working already or is planning.
Nope. It's possible for an outfit like that to make a
manned vessel capable of going to Mars. I'll buy that even
though I'm confident that NASA would never get the funding
for such an effort. I won't buy them being able to move
hundreds of thousands of people over a Hohmann trajectory in
only about 20 years using technology that hasn't even eally
been invented yet. Nor the idea that the space-based
industrial plant required to build a self-sustaining
artificial
habitat for that many people in only a couple of generations from absolute zero.
There's the issue of exactly what the economic basis is for
the whole venture. Cities start to exist for a reason and
fundamentally that reason is defined by the flow of traffic.
You're on a river, or a bit of coastline containing a nice
enclosure to use as a base for a port or on already existing
road. You know...all the stuff that doesn't exist on Mars.
We haven't even begun to explore Mars for exploitable
resource and Elon Musk is predicting over a million people
in 2 and a half generations? New York City was founded as
Fort Nassau in 1614. It took 270 years for it to grow to a
million people and New York City was located in the best
possible geoeconomic conditions for population growth.
That's why it's so damn big now. Right now we aren't at Fort
Nassau. We aren't even at Henry Hudson sailing up the river.
We're at...Portuguese fishermen just starting to arrive on
the Grand Banks. If not Norsemen discovering the New World.
So Elon Musk is either bullshitting everyone, or is himself divorced from reality.
They've said that before. And yet he keeps delivering.
What, precisely, has he delivered?
If you have to ask you haven't been paying attention.
Heh.
Post by J. Clarke
The first privately funded launcher to achieve orbit.
With substantial subsidies.
Post by J. Clarke
The first private company to launch, orbit, and recover a
spacecraft. The first organization of any kind to launch a
payload into orbit and recover the entire first stage booster
intact. The first organization of any kind to launch a payload
into orbit and fly the first stage booster back to the launch
site under its own power. The first organization of any kind to
launch a payload into orbit on a reused first stage booster.
Development of their entire launch system, including the
engines, which are not copies of '60s Russian designs or warmed
over '60s US designs like their competitors are using.
Post by Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
The only notable business
success he's ever had that wasn't heavily subidized by the
taxpayer is PayPal, and he sold out his last shares to eBay
fifteen years ago.
If you don't count SpaceX and Tesla.
Both of which would never had gotten off the ground with
substantial subsidies of taxpayer money.
Post by J. Clarke
Post by Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
SpaceX wouldn't exist without government contracts that are
being heavily driven by the lack of any government owned launch
systems, and the subsequent embarassment of the US having to
beg the Russians for launch slots.
Except that 2/3 of SpaceX's backlog is from commercial
customers.
Who would never have existed with the subsidies SpaceX has always
gotten.
Post by J. Clarke
And SpaceX is not the only manufacturer of launch
vehicles in the US you know.
We're not talking about the other private launch companies. We're
talking about Elon Musk. That you're trying to change the subject
is an admission you know I'm right.
Post by J. Clarke
Their competitor gets a billion
dollars a year whether they launch anything or not.
Musk has gotten billions, as well. Without those billions, neither
SpaceX nor Tesla would exist.
Post by J. Clarke
Per launch
SpaceX charges NASA about half what ULA charges.
Post by Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
Tesla is heavily subsizied, and
always has been. (Has it ever even turned a profit? If so, it's
fairly recent - and they're still subsidized.)
In 2009 Tesla got a loan from the government. The same year
Ford got one for ten times the amount and Nissan for three
times. Tesla was the first of the three to pay off the loan, in
2013. If Tesla is "heavily subsidized" then Ford and Nissan are
more so.
There you go, admitting I'm right again, by trying to change the
subject.
Post by J. Clarke
Tesla says that their gross margin is about 20% however they put
that and more into expanding the company.
Gross margin is utterly irrelevant. Net profits are what matters.
Has Tesla *ever* turned a profit? Looks like they did, finally,
after years of blowing cash out their asses, last year. But nowhere
near as much as they've been subsidized by the taxpayers.
Post by J. Clarke
Post by Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
Hyperlook is a comic
book fantasy.
Probably, whatever "Hyperlook" is. Sounds like a modeling
agency. If you mean Hyperloo_p_ what does that have to do with
anything?
Precisely. It's irrelevant, since it's a stupid idea that will
never happen in the real world.
Post by J. Clarke
He came up with an idea, threw it out for discussion,
and three organizations, none of which include Elon Musk, ran
with it.
So that's not something he has delivered, and you admit - again -
that I'm right.
Post by J. Clarke
Post by Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
The Boring Company is an insane, stupid comic book
fantasy.
What, making tunnel-digging more efficient is insane, stupid,
and fantasy? How do you figure?
It's part of his plan to dig private subway tunnels under LA, which
frankly, makes me wonder if he needs to be institutionalized for
his own safety.
Post by J. Clarke
Remind us again, what have _you_ done other than bitch on the
Internet?
I've been right. which is more than you can manager.

Other than PayPal, which Musk stopped being a part of 15 years ago,
nothing else in his "empire" would exist without taxpayer
subsidies. His only genius is fillout out forms of government
handouts.
--
Terry Austin

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.
J. Clarke
2017-06-26 03:21:13 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
In article <***@69.16.179.42>, ***@gmail.com
says...
Post by Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
Post by J. Clarke
Post by Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
In article
Post by David Johnston
In article
On Saturday, June 24, 2017 at 3:09:52 PM UTC-6, J.
In article
On Saturday, June 24, 2017 at 10:06:02 AM UTC-6,
Post by a425couple
Musk plans city on Mars
June 23, 2017 Sarah Knapton
Elon Musk Picture: supplied
A city on Mars with a million inhabitants could be
achievable within 50 years, South African space
entrepreneur Elon Musk has forecast,
<snort> Elon Musk is full of crap. So's NASA.
NASA's stuck in the '60s but what's your beef with
Musk?
Just the obvious. A city with a million inhabitants on
Mars isn't achievable within 50 years. It might be
remotely feasible to have a village with a hundred
inhabitants. Not likely but possible.
Why isn?t it achievable? Because you say so? I suspect
you're making a lot of assumptions based on the
capabilities of our incompetent government and not on what
SpaceX has working already or is planning.
Nope. It's possible for an outfit like that to make a
manned vessel capable of going to Mars. I'll buy that even
though I'm confident that NASA would never get the funding
for such an effort. I won't buy them being able to move
hundreds of thousands of people over a Hohmann trajectory in
only about 20 years using technology that hasn't even eally
been invented yet. Nor the idea that the space-based
industrial plant required to build a self-sustaining
artificial
habitat for that many people in only a couple of generations from absolute zero.
Post by David Johnston
There's the issue of exactly what the economic basis is for
the whole venture. Cities start to exist for a reason and
fundamentally that reason is defined by the flow of traffic.
You're on a river, or a bit of coastline containing a nice
enclosure to use as a base for a port or on already existing
road. You know...all the stuff that doesn't exist on Mars.
We haven't even begun to explore Mars for exploitable
resource and Elon Musk is predicting over a million people
in 2 and a half generations? New York City was founded as
Fort Nassau in 1614. It took 270 years for it to grow to a
million people and New York City was located in the best
possible geoeconomic conditions for population growth.
That's why it's so damn big now. Right now we aren't at Fort
Nassau. We aren't even at Henry Hudson sailing up the river.
We're at...Portuguese fishermen just starting to arrive on
the Grand Banks. If not Norsemen discovering the New World.
Post by David Johnston
So Elon Musk is either bullshitting everyone, or is himself
divorced from reality.
They've said that before. And yet he keeps delivering.
What, precisely, has he delivered?
If you have to ask you haven't been paying attention.
Heh.
Post by J. Clarke
The first privately funded launcher to achieve orbit.
With substantial subsidies.
OK, tell us the amount of the subsidy and on what date is was paid.
Post by Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
Post by J. Clarke
The first private company to launch, orbit, and recover a
spacecraft. The first organization of any kind to launch a
payload into orbit and recover the entire first stage booster
intact. The first organization of any kind to launch a payload
into orbit and fly the first stage booster back to the launch
site under its own power. The first organization of any kind to
launch a payload into orbit on a reused first stage booster.
Development of their entire launch system, including the
engines, which are not copies of '60s Russian designs or warmed
over '60s US designs like their competitors are using.
Post by Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
The only notable business
success he's ever had that wasn't heavily subidized by the
taxpayer is PayPal, and he sold out his last shares to eBay
fifteen years ago.
If you don't count SpaceX and Tesla.
Both of which would never had gotten off the ground with
substantial subsidies of taxpayer money.
On what date was the first government money transferred to Tesla? How many
cars had it sold on that date?
Post by Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
Post by J. Clarke
Post by Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
SpaceX wouldn't exist without government contracts that are
being heavily driven by the lack of any government owned launch
systems, and the subsequent embarassment of the US having to
beg the Russians for launch slots.
Except that 2/3 of SpaceX's backlog is from commercial
customers.
Who would never have existed with the subsidies SpaceX has always
gotten.
I'm sorry, but the commercial customers were there long before there was a
SpaceX.
Post by Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
Post by J. Clarke
And SpaceX is not the only manufacturer of launch
vehicles in the US you know.
We're not talking about the other private launch companies. We're
talking about Elon Musk. That you're trying to change the subject
is an admission you know I'm right.
Nope, you're the one who was going on about how NASA was subsidizing SpaceX
because they were the only game in town. They aren't and your argument, as
usual, falls flat.
Post by Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
Post by J. Clarke
Their competitor gets a billion
dollars a year whether they launch anything or not.
Musk has gotten billions, as well. Without those billions, neither
SpaceX nor Tesla would exist.
Other than the price of launches delivered, what "billions" would these be?
Post by Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
Post by J. Clarke
Per launch
SpaceX charges NASA about half what ULA charges.
Post by Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
Tesla is heavily subsizied, and
always has been. (Has it ever even turned a profit? If so, it's
fairly recent - and they're still subsidized.)
In 2009 Tesla got a loan from the government. The same year
Ford got one for ten times the amount and Nissan for three
times. Tesla was the first of the three to pay off the loan, in
2013. If Tesla is "heavily subsidized" then Ford and Nissan are
more so.
There you go, admitting I'm right again, by trying to change the
subject.
Nope. Pointing out that Tesla's loan was smaller than the others and paid
back sooner. You seem to have some objection to companies borrowing money.
Post by Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
Post by J. Clarke
Tesla says that their gross margin is about 20% however they put
that and more into expanding the company.
Gross margin is utterly irrelevant. Net profits are what matters.
Has Tesla *ever* turned a profit? Looks like they did, finally,
after years of blowing cash out their asses, last year. But nowhere
near as much as they've been subsidized by the taxpayers.
Ok, tell us how much. I don't want some nebulous "billions", I want a
number with a source.
Post by Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
Post by J. Clarke
Post by Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
Hyperlook is a comic
book fantasy.
Probably, whatever "Hyperlook" is. Sounds like a modeling
agency. If you mean Hyperloo_p_ what does that have to do with
anything?
Precisely. It's irrelevant, since it's a stupid idea that will
never happen in the real world.
So why did you bring it up?
Post by Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
Post by J. Clarke
He came up with an idea, threw it out for discussion,
and three organizations, none of which include Elon Musk, ran
with it.
So that's not something he has delivered, and you admit - again -
that I'm right.
I never said he delivered it, he never offered to deliver it, so what is
its relevance?
Post by Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
Post by J. Clarke
Post by Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
The Boring Company is an insane, stupid comic book
fantasy.
What, making tunnel-digging more efficient is insane, stupid,
and fantasy? How do you figure?
It's part of his plan to dig private subway tunnels under LA, which
frankly, makes me wonder if he needs to be institutionalized for
his own safety.
What leads you to belive that he has such a "plan"? You seem to be
conflating "with this we could" with "I have a plan to".
Post by Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
Post by J. Clarke
Remind us again, what have _you_ done other than bitch on the Internet?
I've been right. which is more than you can manager.
Jeez, is English your first language?
Post by Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
Other than PayPal, which Musk stopped being a part of 15 years ago,
nothing else in his "empire" would exist without taxpayer
subsidies. His only genius is fillout out forms of government
handouts.
So tell us again the amounts of these subsidies and when they were paid.

I'm curious, do you work for Boeing?
Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
2017-06-26 15:09:35 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by J. Clarke
Post by Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
Post by J. Clarke
Post by Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
In article
Post by David Johnston
In article
On Saturday, June 24, 2017 at 3:09:52 PM UTC-6, J.
In article
On Saturday, June 24, 2017 at 10:06:02 AM UTC-6,
Post by a425couple
Musk plans city on Mars
June 23, 2017 Sarah Knapton
Elon Musk Picture: supplied
A city on Mars with a million inhabitants could
be achievable within 50 years, South African
space entrepreneur Elon Musk has forecast,
<snort> Elon Musk is full of crap. So's NASA.
NASA's stuck in the '60s but what's your beef with Musk?
Just the obvious. A city with a million inhabitants
on Mars isn't achievable within 50 years. It might
be remotely feasible to have a village with a hundred
inhabitants. Not likely but possible.
Why isn?t it achievable? Because you say so? I
suspect you're making a lot of assumptions based on the
capabilities of our incompetent government and not on
what SpaceX has working already or is planning.
Nope. It's possible for an outfit like that to make a
manned vessel capable of going to Mars. I'll buy that
even though I'm confident that NASA would never get the
funding for such an effort. I won't buy them being able
to move hundreds of thousands of people over a Hohmann
trajectory in only about 20 years using technology that
hasn't even eally been invented yet. Nor the idea that
the space-based industrial plant required to build a
self-sustaining artificial
habitat for that many people in only a couple of
generations from absolute zero.
Post by David Johnston
There's the issue of exactly what the economic basis is
for the whole venture. Cities start to exist for a
reason and fundamentally that reason is defined by the
flow of traffic. You're on a river, or a bit of coastline
containing a nice enclosure to use as a base for a port
or on already existing road. You know...all the stuff
that doesn't exist on Mars. We haven't even begun to
explore Mars for exploitable resource and Elon Musk is
predicting over a million people
in 2 and a half generations? New York City was founded as
Fort Nassau in 1614. It took 270 years for it to grow to
a million people and New York City was located in the best
possible geoeconomic conditions for population growth.
That's why it's so damn big now. Right now we aren't at
Fort Nassau. We aren't even at Henry Hudson sailing up
the river.
We're at...Portuguese fishermen just starting to arrive
on
the Grand Banks. If not Norsemen discovering the New
World.
Post by David Johnston
So Elon Musk is either bullshitting everyone, or is
himself divorced from reality.
They've said that before. And yet he keeps delivering.
What, precisely, has he delivered?
If you have to ask you haven't been paying attention.
Heh.
Post by J. Clarke
The first privately funded launcher to achieve orbit.
With substantial subsidies.
OK, tell us the amount of the subsidy and on what date is was
paid.
The most recent round was about $5 billion. If you actually wanted
to know, it's easy to find on Google. But you don't want to know,
because knowing would conflict with your desire to suck Musk's
dick, and you can't stant that.
Post by J. Clarke
Post by Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
Post by J. Clarke
The first private company to launch, orbit, and recover a
spacecraft. The first organization of any kind to launch a
payload into orbit and recover the entire first stage booster
intact. The first organization of any kind to launch a
payload into orbit and fly the first stage booster back to
the launch site under its own power. The first organization
of any kind to launch a payload into orbit on a reused first
stage booster. Development of their entire launch system,
including the engines, which are not copies of '60s Russian
designs or warmed over '60s US designs like their competitors
are using.
Post by Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
The only notable business
success he's ever had that wasn't heavily subidized by the
taxpayer is PayPal, and he sold out his last shares to eBay
fifteen years ago.
If you don't count SpaceX and Tesla.
Both of which would never had gotten off the ground with
substantial subsidies of taxpayer money.
On what date was the first government money transferred to
Tesla? How many cars had it sold on that date?
Go read the news coverage. Or Tesla's published financial reports.
If you want facts. Which you don't.
Post by J. Clarke
Post by Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
Post by J. Clarke
Post by Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
SpaceX wouldn't exist without government contracts that are
being heavily driven by the lack of any government owned
launch systems, and the subsequent embarassment of the US
having to beg the Russians for launch slots.
Except that 2/3 of SpaceX's backlog is from commercial
customers.
Who would never have existed with the subsidies SpaceX has
always gotten.
I'm sorry, but the commercial customers were there long before
there was a SpaceX.
Billions in subsidies. Now matter desperately you want the taste of
Musk's man-meat, SpaceX wouldn't exist without it.
Post by J. Clarke
Post by Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
Post by J. Clarke
And SpaceX is not the only manufacturer of launch
vehicles in the US you know.
We're not talking about the other private launch companies.
We're talking about Elon Musk. That you're trying to change the
subject is an admission you know I'm right.
Nope, you're the one who was going on about how NASA was
subsidizing SpaceX because they were the only game in town.
They aren't and your argument, as usual, falls flat.
You're the one begging to suck Musk's dick. Now you're trying to
change the subject because you know I'm right. Loser.
Post by J. Clarke
Post by Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
Post by J. Clarke
Their competitor gets a billion
dollars a year whether they launch anything or not.
Musk has gotten billions, as well. Without those billions,
neither SpaceX nor Tesla would exist.
Other than the price of launches delivered, what "billions"
would these be?
Well, and publicly, documented subsidies. Which are trivial to find
with a simple Google search. If you can't be bothered to take five
seconds to do a search, clearly you're more interested in your
fantasies about sucking Musk's dick than you are in facts.
Post by J. Clarke
Post by Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
Post by J. Clarke
Per launch
SpaceX charges NASA about half what ULA charges.
Post by Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
Tesla is heavily subsizied, and
always has been. (Has it ever even turned a profit? If so,
it's fairly recent - and they're still subsidized.)
In 2009 Tesla got a loan from the government. The same year
Ford got one for ten times the amount and Nissan for three
times. Tesla was the first of the three to pay off the loan,
in 2013. If Tesla is "heavily subsidized" then Ford and
Nissan are more so.
There you go, admitting I'm right again, by trying to change
the subject.
Nope.
Yes.
Post by J. Clarke
Pointing out that Tesla's loan was smaller than the
others and paid back sooner. You seem to have some objection to
companies borrowing money.
When they're borrowing the taxpayer's money based on promises they
have no ability to keep, all taxpayers should be concerned.

You seem to be have some objection to the truth. Not surprising.
Post by J. Clarke
Post by Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
Post by J. Clarke
Tesla says that their gross margin is about 20% however they
put that and more into expanding the company.
Gross margin is utterly irrelevant. Net profits are what
matters. Has Tesla *ever* turned a profit? Looks like they did,
finally, after years of blowing cash out their asses, last
year. But nowhere near as much as they've been subsidized by
the taxpayers.
Ok, tell us how much. I don't want some nebulous "billions", I
want a number with a source.
Then go Google for it, retard. It will take five seconds, four of
which is the browser opening. But you don't want *any* facts, only
to suck Musk's dick.
Post by J. Clarke
Post by Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
Post by J. Clarke
Post by Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
Hyperlook is a comic
book fantasy.
Probably, whatever "Hyperlook" is. Sounds like a modeling
agency. If you mean Hyperloo_p_ what does that have to do
with anything?
Precisely. It's irrelevant, since it's a stupid idea that will
never happen in the real world.
So why did you bring it up?
Why do you keep trying to suck Musk's dick?
Post by J. Clarke
Post by Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
Post by J. Clarke
He came up with an idea, threw it out for discussion,
and three organizations, none of which include Elon Musk, ran
with it.
So that's not something he has delivered, and you admit - again
- that I'm right.
I never said he delivered it, he never offered to deliver it, so
what is its relevance?
In your fantasy world, none. In the real world, it's yet another
stupid, impossible idea from someone who appears to be descending
into dementia.
Post by J. Clarke
Post by Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
Post by J. Clarke
Post by Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
The Boring Company is an insane, stupid comic book
fantasy.
What, making tunnel-digging more efficient is insane, stupid,
and fantasy? How do you figure?
It's part of his plan to dig private subway tunnels under LA,
which frankly, makes me wonder if he needs to be
institutionalized for his own safety.
What leads you to belive that he has such a "plan"?
His public statements, which you are now too mentally ill to see
even when it's right in front of you. He has, after all, started a
company specifically to dig it. Retard.
Post by J. Clarke
You seem to
be conflating "with this we could" with "I have a plan to".
Five seconds onf Google. Try "elon musk private subway." Literally,
give seconds. Four of which are waiting for the browser to open.

Retard.
Post by J. Clarke
Post by Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
Post by J. Clarke
Remind us again, what have _you_ done other than bitch on the Internet?
I've been right. which is more than you can manager.
Jeez, is English your first language?
And I'm still more right than you. And I note you did not actually
disagree with me. Resorting to spelling flames is - again - an
attempt to change the subject to avoid admitting I'm right.
Post by J. Clarke
Post by Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
Other than PayPal, which Musk stopped being a part of 15 years
ago, nothing else in his "empire" would exist without taxpayer
subsidies. His only genius is fillout out forms of government
handouts.
So tell us again the amounts of these subsidies and when they
were paid.
Google. Five seconds.
Post by J. Clarke
I'm curious, do you work for Boeing?
I'm curious, are you actually involuntarily committed to a mental
institution?
--
Terry Austin

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.
Juho Julkunen
2017-06-25 17:51:44 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by David Johnston
There's the issue of exactly what the economic basis is for the whole
venture. Cities start to exist for a reason and fundamentally that
reason is

Economic incentives. Generally people want to live where other people
are. I don't see subsistence farming or hunting and gathering as very
workable on Mars.

Of course, that same reason is why people as a rule are not anxious to
move to Mars. Or Edmonton.
--
Juho Julkunen
Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
2017-06-25 19:07:32 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
In article
Post by David Johnston
There's the issue of exactly what the economic basis is for the whole
venture. Cities start to exist for a reason and fundamentally
that reason is
Economic incentives.
That's a fancy way of saying "taxpayer subsidies." Which, notably, do
not require any actual delivery of promised goods or services. And
which Musk has proven, time and again, that is is quite aware of.
--
Terry Austin

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.
Juho Julkunen
2017-06-25 21:14:28 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
In article
Post by David Johnston
There's the issue of exactly what the economic basis is for the whole
venture. Cities start to exist for a reason and fundamentally
that reason is
Economic incentives.
That's a fancy way of saying "taxpayer subsidies." Which, notably, do
not require any actual delivery of promised goods or services. And
which Musk has proven, time and again, that is is quite aware of.
Ah, I should have snipped the first sentence. I was responding only to
the cities part.

Taxpayer subsidies are an incentive, though, if a very unfortunate one.

Has there been a SF story where an interplanetary or interstellar
colonization effort is motivated by a faked gold rush? Or antimatter
rush, as the case may be.
--
Juho Julkunen
Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
2017-06-25 22:13:50 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Juho Julkunen
Post by Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
In article
Post by David Johnston
There's the issue of exactly what the economic basis is for the whole
venture. Cities start to exist for a reason and
fundamentally that reason is
Economic incentives.
That's a fancy way of saying "taxpayer subsidies." Which,
notably, do not require any actual delivery of promised goods
or services. And which Musk has proven, time and again, that is
is quite aware of.
Ah, I should have snipped the first sentence. I was responding
only to the cities part.
Taxpayer subsidies are an incentive, though, if a very
unfortunate one.
Has there been a SF story where an interplanetary or
interstellar colonization effort is motivated by a faked gold
rush? Or antimatter rush, as the case may be.
Pournelle's future history includes a lot of forced colonization
(ala Australia), which is the other side of the same coin.
--
Terry Austin

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.
Robert Carnegie
2017-06-25 22:23:42 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Juho Julkunen
Post by Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
In article
Post by David Johnston
There's the issue of exactly what the economic basis is for the whole
venture. Cities start to exist for a reason and fundamentally
that reason is
Economic incentives.
That's a fancy way of saying "taxpayer subsidies." Which, notably, do
not require any actual delivery of promised goods or services. And
which Musk has proven, time and again, that is is quite aware of.
Ah, I should have snipped the first sentence. I was responding only to
the cities part.
Taxpayer subsidies are an incentive, though, if a very unfortunate one.
Has there been a SF story where an interplanetary or interstellar
colonization effort is motivated by a faked gold rush? Or antimatter
rush, as the case may be.
There was the emigration from Golgafrincham,
but that's slightly different.

That the lure is fake in your pattern is a story
spoiler, of course. So there's "gur znepuvat
zbebaf" (which people have heard of), and
"gur v vafvqr" (not the film), and
"The Klingonese Falcon" (which I made up).
Although actually there's an episode of
"Star Trek Deep Space Nine" about the quest
for the cutlass of Kahless.
Ted Nolan <tednolan>
2017-06-25 22:37:39 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Juho Julkunen
Post by Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
In article
Post by David Johnston
There's the issue of exactly what the economic basis is for the whole
venture. Cities start to exist for a reason and fundamentally
that reason is
Economic incentives.
That's a fancy way of saying "taxpayer subsidies." Which, notably, do
not require any actual delivery of promised goods or services. And
which Musk has proven, time and again, that is is quite aware of.
Ah, I should have snipped the first sentence. I was responding only to
the cities part.
Taxpayer subsidies are an incentive, though, if a very unfortunate one.
Has there been a SF story where an interplanetary or interstellar
colonization effort is motivated by a faked gold rush? Or antimatter
rush, as the case may be.
--
Juho Julkunen
Isn't there some sort of ad campaign for Venus in _The Space Merchants_?
--
------
columbiaclosings.com
What's not in Columbia anymore..
David Johnston
2017-06-25 22:49:18 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Juho Julkunen
Post by Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
In article
Post by David Johnston
There's the issue of exactly what the economic basis is for the whole
venture. Cities start to exist for a reason and fundamentally
that reason is
Economic incentives.
That's a fancy way of saying "taxpayer subsidies." Which, notably, do
not require any actual delivery of promised goods or services. And
which Musk has proven, time and again, that is is quite aware of.
Ah, I should have snipped the first sentence. I was responding only to
the cities part.
Taxpayer subsidies are an incentive, though, if a very unfortunate one.
Has there been a SF story where an interplanetary or interstellar
colonization effort is motivated by a faked gold rush? Or antimatter
rush, as the case may be.
The Man Who Sold The Moon came close with the attempt to fake the diamond find. But really hoaxes can motivate initial exploration. Actual sustained colonization requires something more substantial
Greg Goss
2017-06-26 05:35:45 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Juho Julkunen
Taxpayer subsidies are an incentive, though, if a very unfortunate one.
Has there been a SF story where an interplanetary or interstellar
colonization effort is motivated by a faked gold rush? Or antimatter
rush, as the case may be.
Avatar?
--
We are geeks. Resistance is voltage over current.
James Nicoll
2017-06-26 14:11:34 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Greg Goss
Post by Juho Julkunen
Taxpayer subsidies are an incentive, though, if a very unfortunate one.
Has there been a SF story where an interplanetary or interstellar
colonization effort is motivated by a faked gold rush? Or antimatter
rush, as the case may be.
Avatar?
Wasn't DD Harriman planning on faking the discovery of diamonds on the Moon?
--
My reviews can be found at http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/
My Livejournal at http://www.livejournal.com/users/james_nicoll
My patreon is at https://www.patreon.com/jamesdnicoll
The Last Doctor
2017-06-26 14:51:01 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by James Nicoll
Post by Greg Goss
Post by Juho Julkunen
Taxpayer subsidies are an incentive, though, if a very unfortunate one.
Has there been a SF story where an interplanetary or interstellar
colonization effort is motivated by a faked gold rush? Or antimatter
rush, as the case may be.
Avatar?
Wasn't DD Harriman planning on faking the discovery of diamonds on the Moon?
As I recall it he was planning to have the pilot claim that he took the
diamonds with him into space to observe any effects of cosmic radiation on
them. He couldn't be held responsible for the conclusion anyone might draw
about that being a load of dingoes kidneys, and assuming that there were
tons of diamonds just lying around on the moon's surface.
Scott Lurndal
2017-06-26 15:00:26 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by The Last Doctor
Post by James Nicoll
Post by Greg Goss
Post by Juho Julkunen
Taxpayer subsidies are an incentive, though, if a very unfortunate one.
Has there been a SF story where an interplanetary or interstellar
colonization effort is motivated by a faked gold rush? Or antimatter
rush, as the case may be.
Avatar?
Wasn't DD Harriman planning on faking the discovery of diamonds on the Moon?
As I recall it he was planning to have the pilot claim that he took the
diamonds with him into space to observe any effects of cosmic radiation on
them. He couldn't be held responsible for the conclusion anyone might draw
about that being a load of dingoes kidneys, and assuming that there were
tons of diamonds just lying around on the moon's surface.
And, IIRC, the pilot _did_ find "diamonds just laying on the moon's surface".
(Unless I'm conflating _Rocketship Galileo_ with _The Man who Sold the Moon_)
David Johnston
2017-06-26 14:51:42 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by James Nicoll
Post by Greg Goss
Post by Juho Julkunen
Taxpayer subsidies are an incentive, though, if a very unfortunate one.
Has there been a SF story where an interplanetary or interstellar
colonization effort is motivated by a faked gold rush? Or antimatter
rush, as the case may be.
Avatar?
Wasn't DD Harriman planning on faking the discovery of diamonds on the Moon?
Yes. I group it with The Dead Past by Isaac Asimov only more so. So there are real diamonds on the Moon...so what? It's hardly going to collapse Earth's diamond market in the short term. Not when you factor in transportation costs. So what was he so upset about?
-dsr-
2017-06-26 22:40:23 UTC
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Raw Message
Post by Juho Julkunen
Post by Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
In article
Post by David Johnston
There's the issue of exactly what the economic basis is for the whole
venture. Cities start to exist for a reason and fundamentally
that reason is
Economic incentives.
That's a fancy way of saying "taxpayer subsidies." Which, notably, do
not require any actual delivery of promised goods or services. And
which Musk has proven, time and again, that is is quite aware of.
Ah, I should have snipped the first sentence. I was responding only to
the cities part.
Taxpayer subsidies are an incentive, though, if a very unfortunate one.
Has there been a SF story where an interplanetary or interstellar
colonization effort is motivated by a faked gold rush? Or antimatter
rush, as the case may be.
It's partially a spoiler, but it's been a few years, so: Charlie
Stross's _Neptune's Brood_ has such a scheme at the heart of one
of the plots.

-dsr-
Butch Malahide
2017-06-27 07:31:33 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Juho Julkunen
Has there been a SF story where an interplanetary or interstellar
colonization effort is motivated by a faked gold rush? Or antimatter
rush, as the case may be.
"Alexander the Bait" by William Tenn.

https://archive.org/stream/Astounding_v37n03_1946-05_cape1736_fixed#page/n77/mode/2up
David DeLaney
2017-06-27 09:15:15 UTC
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Raw Message
Post by Juho Julkunen
Has there been a SF story where an interplanetary or interstellar
colonization effort is motivated by a faked gold rush? Or antimatter
rush, as the case may be.
Not quite, but _The Marching Morons_ just about fits.

Dave, you said "effort", not 'success'

ps: also, bits of Cities in Flight at the time the germanium standard gives way
to the drug standard might fit with some squinching
--
\/David DeLaney posting thru EarthLink - "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
gatekeeper.vic.com/~dbd - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.
Gene Wirchenko
2017-06-28 23:08:16 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On Mon, 26 Jun 2017 00:14:28 +0300, Juho Julkunen
<***@hotmail.com> wrote:

[snip]
Post by Juho Julkunen
Has there been a SF story where an interplanetary or interstellar
colonization effort is motivated by a faked gold rush? Or antimatter
rush, as the case may be.
Not exactly a match, but _Foundation_ had fakery.

Sincerely,

Gene Wirchenko
Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
2017-06-25 19:02:19 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by David Johnston
So Elon Musk is either bullshitting everyone, or is himself
divorced from reality.
Could be either. Most of his fortune is from subsidies paid for by
the taxpayer.
--
Terry Austin

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.
Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
2017-06-25 18:57:21 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
In article
On Saturday, June 24, 2017 at 3:09:52 PM UTC-6, J. Clarke
In article
Post by David Johnston
Post by a425couple
Musk plans city on Mars
June 23, 2017 Sarah Knapton
Elon Musk Picture: supplied
A city on Mars with a million inhabitants could be
achievable within 50 years, South African space
entrepreneur Elon Musk has forecast,
<snort> Elon Musk is full of crap. So's NASA.
NASA's stuck in the '60s but what's your beef with Musk?
Just the obvious. A city with a million inhabitants on Mars
isn't achievable within 50 years. It might be remotely
feasible to have a village with a hundred inhabitants. Not
likely but possible.
Why isn?t it achievable? Because you say so? I suspect you're
making a lot of assumptions based on the capabilities of our
incompetent government and not on what SpaceX has working
already or is planning.
He's proposing, what, a thousand ships? Carrying 200 people each?
That means multiple trips per ship. Feel free to use Musk's own
best guess estimates on the cost per trip, and multiple that out to
transport a million people. Tell us when your calculator errors out
from too big of numbers.
--
Terry Austin

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.
J. Clarke
2017-06-25 23:39:42 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
In article <***@69.16.179.42>, ***@gmail.com
says...
Post by Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
In article
On Saturday, June 24, 2017 at 3:09:52 PM UTC-6, J. Clarke
In article
Post by David Johnston
Post by a425couple
Musk plans city on Mars
June 23, 2017 Sarah Knapton
Elon Musk Picture: supplied
A city on Mars with a million inhabitants could be
achievable within 50 years, South African space
entrepreneur Elon Musk has forecast,
<snort> Elon Musk is full of crap. So's NASA.
NASA's stuck in the '60s but what's your beef with Musk?
Just the obvious. A city with a million inhabitants on Mars
isn't achievable within 50 years. It might be remotely
feasible to have a village with a hundred inhabitants. Not
likely but possible.
Why isn?t it achievable? Because you say so? I suspect you're
making a lot of assumptions based on the capabilities of our
incompetent government and not on what SpaceX has working
already or is planning.
He's proposing, what, a thousand ships? Carrying 200 people each?
That means multiple trips per ship. Feel free to use Musk's own
best guess estimates on the cost per trip, and multiple that out to
transport a million people. Tell us when your calculator errors out
from too big of numbers.
Maybe your problem is that you're using a calculator that came as a prize
in a crackerjack box.

His figures work out to 1-2 billion dollars a year, paid by the passengers.

Where's the issue?

And yes, multiple trips per ship. Most of the cost is fuel. Not like now.
Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
2017-06-26 02:47:34 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by J. Clarke
Post by Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
In article
On Saturday, June 24, 2017 at 3:09:52 PM UTC-6, J. Clarke
In article
On Saturday, June 24, 2017 at 10:06:02 AM UTC-6,
Post by a425couple
Musk plans city on Mars
June 23, 2017 Sarah Knapton
Elon Musk Picture: supplied
A city on Mars with a million inhabitants could be
achievable within 50 years, South African space
entrepreneur Elon Musk has forecast,
<snort> Elon Musk is full of crap. So's NASA.
NASA's stuck in the '60s but what's your beef with Musk?
Just the obvious. A city with a million inhabitants on Mars
isn't achievable within 50 years. It might be remotely
feasible to have a village with a hundred inhabitants. Not
likely but possible.
Why isn?t it achievable? Because you say so? I suspect
you're making a lot of assumptions based on the capabilities
of our incompetent government and not on what SpaceX has
working already or is planning.
He's proposing, what, a thousand ships? Carrying 200 people
each? That means multiple trips per ship. Feel free to use
Musk's own best guess estimates on the cost per trip, and
multiple that out to transport a million people. Tell us when
your calculator errors out from too big of numbers.
Maybe your problem is that you're using a calculator that came
as a prize in a crackerjack box.
His figures work out to 1-2 billion dollars a year, paid by the passengers.
1,000,000 people total in 50 years is 20,000 per year, or 20
launches per year. So a hundred million per launch? Or half that,
at the lower end. SpaceX is currently charging $61 million to
launch to low earth orbit. The reuse of the first state is expeted
to drop that to $43 million per launch. The cost of a launch is
directly proportional to the payload. The payload needed to send
someone to Mars is going to be at least two orders of magnitude
larger (and probalby three, when you add in the materials need to
build a permanent colony). And that's just launch cost. Never mind
food and other consumable supplies need for months long trips.

If Musk believes he's going to drop the cost per pound to launch by
that many orders of magnitude, he's delusional. So is anybody else
buying that bullshit. His business plan is to suck down every
taxpayer dollar he can get, then beg for more because it's not
enough. We know it won't be enough, because there _isn't_ enough.
Post by J. Clarke
Where's the issue?
In his demetia.
Post by J. Clarke
And yes, multiple trips per ship. Most of the cost is fuel.
Not like now.
And you're just as demented.
--
Terry Austin

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.
J. Clarke
2017-06-26 03:09:43 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
In article <***@69.16.179.42>, ***@gmail.com
says...
Post by Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
Post by J. Clarke
Post by Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
In article
Post by David Johnston
In article
On Saturday, June 24, 2017 at 10:06:02 AM UTC-6,
Post by a425couple
Musk plans city on Mars
June 23, 2017 Sarah Knapton
Elon Musk Picture: supplied
A city on Mars with a million inhabitants could be
achievable within 50 years, South African space
entrepreneur Elon Musk has forecast,
<snort> Elon Musk is full of crap. So's NASA.
NASA's stuck in the '60s but what's your beef with Musk?
Just the obvious. A city with a million inhabitants on Mars
isn't achievable within 50 years. It might be remotely
feasible to have a village with a hundred inhabitants. Not
likely but possible.
Why isn?t it achievable? Because you say so? I suspect
you're making a lot of assumptions based on the capabilities
of our incompetent government and not on what SpaceX has
working already or is planning.
He's proposing, what, a thousand ships? Carrying 200 people
each? That means multiple trips per ship. Feel free to use
Musk's own best guess estimates on the cost per trip, and
multiple that out to transport a million people. Tell us when
your calculator errors out from too big of numbers.
Maybe your problem is that you're using a calculator that came
as a prize in a crackerjack box.
His figures work out to 1-2 billion dollars a year, paid by the passengers.
1,000,000 people total in 50 years is 20,000 per year, or 20
launches per year. So a hundred million per launch? Or half that,
at the lower end. SpaceX is currently charging $61 million to
launch to low earth orbit. The reuse of the first state is expeted
to drop that to $43 million per launch. The cost of a launch is
directly proportional to the payload. The payload needed to send
someone to Mars is going to be at least two orders of magnitude
larger (and probalby three, when you add in the materials need to
build a permanent colony). And that's just launch cost. Never mind
food and other consumable supplies need for months long trips.
So what does reusing all stages do?

Currently the cost of a launch is directly proportional to the cost of the
rocket they're throwing away. He's not planning on throwing away rockets.

And if you work out the numbers you'll find that your "directly
proportional" leaves out quite a lot. Like that there are recurring and
nonrecurring costs, and that the cost of the fuel is a nearly negligible
part of the total. He's working on creating a situation where, like with
airplanes, the primary cost of operations is the cost of fuel.
Post by Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
If Musk believes he's going to drop the cost per pound to launch by
that many orders of magnitude, he's delusional. So is anybody else
buying that bullshit. His business plan is to suck down every
taxpayer dollar he can get, then beg for more because it's not
enough. We know it won't be enough, because there _isn't_ enough.
No, that's United Launch Alliance's game.
Post by Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
Post by J. Clarke
Where's the issue?
In his demetia.
So let's see, he's putting payloads in orbit and you're sitting at a
keyboard foaming at the mouth and _he_'s demented?
Post by Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
Post by J. Clarke
And yes, multiple trips per ship. Most of the cost is fuel.
Not like now.
And you're just as demented.
Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
2017-06-26 15:19:06 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by J. Clarke
Post by Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
Post by J. Clarke
Post by Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
In article
Post by David Johnston
In article
On Saturday, June 24, 2017 at 10:06:02 AM UTC-6,
Post by a425couple
Musk plans city on Mars
June 23, 2017 Sarah Knapton
Elon Musk Picture: supplied
A city on Mars with a million inhabitants could be
achievable within 50 years, South African space
entrepreneur Elon Musk has forecast,
<snort> Elon Musk is full of crap. So's NASA.
NASA's stuck in the '60s but what's your beef with
Musk?
Just the obvious. A city with a million inhabitants on
Mars isn't achievable within 50 years. It might be
remotely feasible to have a village with a hundred
inhabitants. Not likely but possible.
Why isn?t it achievable? Because you say so? I suspect
you're making a lot of assumptions based on the
capabilities of our incompetent government and not on what
SpaceX has working already or is planning.
He's proposing, what, a thousand ships? Carrying 200 people
each? That means multiple trips per ship. Feel free to use
Musk's own best guess estimates on the cost per trip, and
multiple that out to transport a million people. Tell us
when your calculator errors out from too big of numbers.
Maybe your problem is that you're using a calculator that
came as a prize in a crackerjack box.
His figures work out to 1-2 billion dollars a year, paid by
the passengers.
1,000,000 people total in 50 years is 20,000 per year, or 20
launches per year. So a hundred million per launch? Or half
that, at the lower end. SpaceX is currently charging $61
million to launch to low earth orbit. The reuse of the first
state is expeted to drop that to $43 million per launch. The
cost of a launch is directly proportional to the payload. The
payload needed to send someone to Mars is going to be at least
two orders of magnitude larger (and probalby three, when you
add in the materials need to build a permanent colony). And
that's just launch cost. Never mind food and other consumable
supplies need for months long trips.
So what does reusing all stages do?
Not five or six orders of magnitude reduction.

It's a retarded idea, from a man apparently descending into
dementia. Get over it.
Post by J. Clarke
So let's see, he's putting payloads in orbit and you're sitting
at a keyboard foaming at the mouth and _he_'s demented?
What have *you* done for the world? You're too fucking lazy to even
go a Google search on well documented subsidies. Or maybe just too
fucking stupid to understand it. Or maybe too fucking stupid to
*spell* it.
--
Terry Austin

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.
J. Clarke
2017-06-27 02:48:44 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
In article <***@69.16.179.42>, ***@gmail.com
says...
Post by Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
Post by J. Clarke
Post by Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
Post by J. Clarke
Post by Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
In article
Post by David Johnston
In article
On Saturday, June 24, 2017 at 10:06:02 AM UTC-6,
Post by a425couple
Musk plans city on Mars
June 23, 2017 Sarah Knapton
Elon Musk Picture: supplied
A city on Mars with a million inhabitants could be
achievable within 50 years, South African space
entrepreneur Elon Musk has forecast,
<snort> Elon Musk is full of crap. So's NASA.
NASA's stuck in the '60s but what's your beef with
Musk?
Just the obvious. A city with a million inhabitants on
Mars isn't achievable within 50 years. It might be
remotely feasible to have a village with a hundred
inhabitants. Not likely but possible.
Why isn?t it achievable? Because you say so? I suspect
you're making a lot of assumptions based on the
capabilities of our incompetent government and not on what
SpaceX has working already or is planning.
He's proposing, what, a thousand ships? Carrying 200 people
each? That means multiple trips per ship. Feel free to use
Musk's own best guess estimates on the cost per trip, and
multiple that out to transport a million people. Tell us
when your calculator errors out from too big of numbers.
Maybe your problem is that you're using a calculator that
came as a prize in a crackerjack box.
His figures work out to 1-2 billion dollars a year, paid by the passengers.
1,000,000 people total in 50 years is 20,000 per year, or 20
launches per year. So a hundred million per launch? Or half
that, at the lower end. SpaceX is currently charging $61
million to launch to low earth orbit. The reuse of the first
state is expeted to drop that to $43 million per launch. The
cost of a launch is directly proportional to the payload. The
payload needed to send someone to Mars is going to be at least
two orders of magnitude larger (and probalby three, when you
add in the materials need to build a permanent colony). And
that's just launch cost. Never mind food and other consumable
supplies need for months long trips.
So what does reusing all stages do?
Not five or six orders of magnitude reduction.
It's a retarded idea, from a man apparently descending into
dementia. Get over it.
Post by J. Clarke
So let's see, he's putting payloads in orbit and you're sitting
at a keyboard foaming at the mouth and _he_'s demented?
What have *you* done for the world? You're too fucking lazy to even
go a Google search on well documented subsidies. Or maybe just too
fucking stupid to understand it. Or maybe too fucking stupid to
*spell* it.
You're criticizing a man who is putting payloads into orbit and you can't
even come up with an original insult. Pathetic.
Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
2017-06-27 04:16:30 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by J. Clarke
Post by Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
Post by J. Clarke
Post by Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
Post by J. Clarke
Post by Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
In article
On Saturday, June 24, 2017 at 3:09:52 PM UTC-6, J.
In article
On Saturday, June 24, 2017 at 10:06:02 AM UTC-6,
Post by a425couple
Musk plans city on Mars
June 23, 2017 Sarah Knapton
Elon Musk Picture: supplied
A city on Mars with a million inhabitants could
be achievable within 50 years, South African
space entrepreneur Elon Musk has forecast,
<snort> Elon Musk is full of crap. So's NASA.
NASA's stuck in the '60s but what's your beef with
Musk?
Just the obvious. A city with a million inhabitants
on Mars isn't achievable within 50 years. It might be
remotely feasible to have a village with a hundred
inhabitants. Not likely but possible.
Why isn?t it achievable? Because you say so? I
suspect you're making a lot of assumptions based on the
capabilities of our incompetent government and not on
what SpaceX has working already or is planning.
He's proposing, what, a thousand ships? Carrying 200
people each? That means multiple trips per ship. Feel
free to use Musk's own best guess estimates on the cost
per trip, and multiple that out to transport a million
people. Tell us when your calculator errors out from too
big of numbers.
Maybe your problem is that you're using a calculator that
came as a prize in a crackerjack box.
His figures work out to 1-2 billion dollars a year, paid
by the passengers.
1,000,000 people total in 50 years is 20,000 per year, or 20
launches per year. So a hundred million per launch? Or half
that, at the lower end. SpaceX is currently charging $61
million to launch to low earth orbit. The reuse of the first
state is expeted to drop that to $43 million per launch. The
cost of a launch is directly proportional to the payload.
The payload needed to send someone to Mars is going to be at
least two orders of magnitude larger (and probalby three,
when you add in the materials need to build a permanent
colony). And that's just launch cost. Never mind food and
other consumable supplies need for months long trips.
So what does reusing all stages do?
Not five or six orders of magnitude reduction.
It's a retarded idea, from a man apparently descending into
dementia. Get over it.
Post by J. Clarke
So let's see, he's putting payloads in orbit and you're
sitting at a keyboard foaming at the mouth and _he_'s
demented?
What have *you* done for the world? You're too fucking lazy to
even go a Google search on well documented subsidies. Or maybe
just too fucking stupid to understand it. Or maybe too fucking
stupid to *spell* it.
You're criticizing a man who is putting payloads into orbit
Because he was subsidized to he tune of billions by the taxpayer.
Post by J. Clarke
and
you can't even come up with an original insult. Pathetic.
More original than your constant evasions and attempts to change
the subject, while admitting I'm right.

Here's a decent summary of how Musk has based his entire business
model of suckling at the public teat, and why it stifles true
innovation:

http://nationalinterest.org/feature/cut-elon-musks-government-
subsidy-gravy-train-18671

Not that you'll read it. It might shatter your hero worship of
Musk's dick. And even if you did, you're too stupid to understand
it. And even if you did, you're not man enough to admit to yourself
that Musk is a parasite on society.

But others might find it informative. Or just another excuse to
laugh at how stupid you are.
--
Terry Austin

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.
Robert Carnegie
2017-06-27 06:33:47 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by J. Clarke
says...
Post by Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
Post by J. Clarke
Post by Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
Post by J. Clarke
Post by Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
In article
Post by David Johnston
In article
On Saturday, June 24, 2017 at 10:06:02 AM UTC-6,
Post by a425couple
Musk plans city on Mars
June 23, 2017 Sarah Knapton
Elon Musk Picture: supplied
A city on Mars with a million inhabitants could be
achievable within 50 years, South African space
entrepreneur Elon Musk has forecast,
<snort> Elon Musk is full of crap. So's NASA.
NASA's stuck in the '60s but what's your beef with Musk?
Just the obvious. A city with a million inhabitants on
Mars isn't achievable within 50 years. It might be
remotely feasible to have a village with a hundred
inhabitants. Not likely but possible.
Why isn?t it achievable? Because you say so? I suspect
you're making a lot of assumptions based on the
capabilities of our incompetent government and not on what
SpaceX has working already or is planning.
He's proposing, what, a thousand ships? Carrying 200 people
each? That means multiple trips per ship. Feel free to use
Musk's own best guess estimates on the cost per trip, and
multiple that out to transport a million people. Tell us
when your calculator errors out from too big of numbers.
Maybe your problem is that you're using a calculator that
came as a prize in a crackerjack box.
His figures work out to 1-2 billion dollars a year, paid by the passengers.
1,000,000 people total in 50 years is 20,000 per year, or 20
launches per year. So a hundred million per launch? Or half
that, at the lower end. SpaceX is currently charging $61
million to launch to low earth orbit. The reuse of the first
state is expeted to drop that to $43 million per launch. The
cost of a launch is directly proportional to the payload. The
payload needed to send someone to Mars is going to be at least
two orders of magnitude larger (and probalby three, when you
add in the materials need to build a permanent colony). And
that's just launch cost. Never mind food and other consumable
supplies need for months long trips.
So what does reusing all stages do?
Not five or six orders of magnitude reduction.
It's a retarded idea, from a man apparently descending into
dementia. Get over it.
Post by J. Clarke
So let's see, he's putting payloads in orbit and you're sitting
at a keyboard foaming at the mouth and _he_'s demented?
What have *you* done for the world? You're too fucking lazy to even
go a Google search on well documented subsidies. Or maybe just too
fucking stupid to understand it. Or maybe too fucking stupid to
*spell* it.
You're criticizing a man who is putting payloads into orbit and you can't
even come up with an original insult. Pathetic.
/You're/ arguing with Terry. Lured in again.
Greg Goss
2017-06-27 15:14:59 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Robert Carnegie
/You're/ arguing with Terry. Lured in again.
It's winnable.
--
We are geeks. Resistance is voltage over current.
Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
2017-06-27 15:45:10 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Greg Goss
Post by Robert Carnegie
/You're/ arguing with Terry. Lured in again.
It's winnable.
Not by you, as you well know. Feeling jealous again, Greggie? Need
some attention? Ask Mummy for a coookie.
--
Terry Austin

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.
J. Clarke
2017-06-27 20:46:14 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Greg Goss
Post by Robert Carnegie
/You're/ arguing with Terry. Lured in again.
It's winnable.
I consider it won when he starts telling me how stupid I am.
Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
2017-06-27 21:42:47 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by J. Clarke
says...
Post by Greg Goss
Post by Robert Carnegie
/You're/ arguing with Terry. Lured in again.
It's winnable.
I consider it won when he starts telling me how stupid I am.
Then I expect everybody who knows you wins every time they interact
with you, because there isn't a single moment when you're not stupid.

And Musk is still a parastie suckling on the public's teat. I note
you have stopped disputing that. I guess your brain just stopped
working entirely when you realize that $5 billion in subsidies,
without which Tesla and SpaceX wouldn't exist, means that parasite is
exactly what he is.

I notice you also didn't reply to the post with the link to a fairly
in depth explanation of why his gaming the subsidies is bad, and how
it suppresses actual innovation.

And I'm guessing you never, ever, ever will. In fact, I suspect you
literally can't see it through your delusional fantasies about Musk's
dick.
--
Terry Austin

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.
J. Clarke
2017-06-28 01:00:08 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
In article <***@69.16.179.43>, ***@gmail.com
says...
Post by Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
Post by J. Clarke
Post by Greg Goss
Post by Robert Carnegie
/You're/ arguing with Terry. Lured in again.
It's winnable.
I consider it won when he starts telling me how stupid I am.
Then I expect everybody who knows you wins every time they interact
with you, because there isn't a single moment when you're not stupid.
And Musk is still a parastie suckling on the public's teat. I note
you have stopped disputing that. I guess your brain just stopped
working entirely when you realize that $5 billion in subsidies,
without which Tesla and SpaceX wouldn't exist, means that parasite is
exactly what he is.
I notice you also didn't reply to the post with the link to a fairly
in depth explanation of why his gaming the subsidies is bad, and how
it suppresses actual innovation.
And I'm guessing you never, ever, ever will. In fact, I suspect you
literally can't see it through your delusional fantasies about Musk's
dick.
Interesting that you keep bringing up dicks.
Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
2017-06-28 01:42:17 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by J. Clarke
Post by Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
Post by J. Clarke
Post by Greg Goss
Post by Robert Carnegie
/You're/ arguing with Terry. Lured in again.
It's winnable.
I consider it won when he starts telling me how stupid I am.
Then I expect everybody who knows you wins every time they
interact with you, because there isn't a single moment when
you're not stupid.
And Musk is still a parastie suckling on the public's teat. I
note you have stopped disputing that. I guess your brain just
stopped working entirely when you realize that $5 billion in
subsidies, without which Tesla and SpaceX wouldn't exist, means
that parasite is exactly what he is.
I notice you also didn't reply to the post with the link to a
fairly in depth explanation of why his gaming the subsidies is
bad, and how it suppresses actual innovation.
And I'm guessing you never, ever, ever will. In fact, I suspect
you literally can't see it through your delusional fantasies
about Musk's dick.
Interesting that you keep bringing up dicks.
It's clear you want to suck Musk's.

And you're still evading the issue, including, specifically, the
numbers you demanded.
--
Terry Austin

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.
Michael F. Stemper
2017-06-28 21:13:36 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by J. Clarke
says...
Post by Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
And Musk is still a parastie suckling on the public's teat. I note
you have stopped disputing that. I guess your brain just stopped
working entirely when you realize that $5 billion in subsidies,
without which Tesla and SpaceX wouldn't exist, means that parasite is
exactly what he is.
I notice you also didn't reply to the post with the link to a fairly
in depth explanation of why his gaming the subsidies is bad, and how
it suppresses actual innovation.
And I'm guessing you never, ever, ever will. In fact, I suspect you
literally can't see it through your delusional fantasies about Musk's
dick.
Interesting that you keep bringing up dicks.
Obviously a big fan of _The Star Beast_.
--
Michael F. Stemper
The FAQ for rec.arts.sf.written is at:
http://leepers.us/evelyn/faqs/sf-written
Please read it before posting.
Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
2017-06-27 15:44:39 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by J. Clarke
Post by Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
Post by J. Clarke
Post by Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
Post by J. Clarke
Post by Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
In article
On Saturday, June 24, 2017 at 3:09:52 PM UTC-6, J.
In article
On Saturday, June 24, 2017 at 10:06:02 AM UTC-6,
Post by a425couple
Musk plans city on Mars
June 23, 2017 Sarah Knapton
Elon Musk Picture: supplied
A city on Mars with a million inhabitants
could be achievable within 50 years, South
African space entrepreneur Elon Musk has
forecast,
<snort> Elon Musk is full of crap. So's NASA.
NASA's stuck in the '60s but what's your beef with Musk?
Just the obvious. A city with a million inhabitants
on Mars isn't achievable within 50 years. It might
be remotely feasible to have a village with a
hundred inhabitants. Not likely but possible.
Why isn?t it achievable? Because you say so? I
suspect you're making a lot of assumptions based on
the capabilities of our incompetent government and
not on what SpaceX has working already or is
planning.
He's proposing, what, a thousand ships? Carrying 200
people each? That means multiple trips per ship. Feel
free to use Musk's own best guess estimates on the cost
per trip, and multiple that out to transport a million
people. Tell us when your calculator errors out from
too big of numbers.
Maybe your problem is that you're using a calculator
that came as a prize in a crackerjack box.
His figures work out to 1-2 billion dollars a year, paid by the passengers.
1,000,000 people total in 50 years is 20,000 per year, or
20 launches per year. So a hundred million per launch? Or
half that, at the lower end. SpaceX is currently charging
$61 million to launch to low earth orbit. The reuse of the
first state is expeted to drop that to $43 million per
launch. The cost of a launch is directly proportional to
the payload. The payload needed to send someone to Mars is
going to be at least two orders of magnitude larger (and
probalby three, when you add in the materials need to
build a permanent colony). And that's just launch cost.
Never mind food and other consumable supplies need for
months long trips.
So what does reusing all stages do?
Not five or six orders of magnitude reduction.
It's a retarded idea, from a man apparently descending into
dementia. Get over it.
Post by J. Clarke
So let's see, he's putting payloads in orbit and you're
sitting at a keyboard foaming at the mouth and _he_'s
demented?
What have *you* done for the world? You're too fucking lazy
to even go a Google search on well documented subsidies. Or
maybe just too fucking stupid to understand it. Or maybe too
fucking stupid to *spell* it.
You're criticizing a man who is putting payloads into orbit and
you can't even come up with an original insult. Pathetic.
/You're/ arguing with Terry. Lured in again.
Note who you're talking to, and see if you can say with a straight
face that you're surprised.

Plus, of course, you just jumped on the hook with him.
--
Terry Austin

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.
J. Clarke
2017-06-27 20:45:13 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by J. Clarke
says...
Post by Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
Post by J. Clarke
Post by Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
Post by J. Clarke
Post by Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
In article
Post by David Johnston
In article
On Saturday, June 24, 2017 at 10:06:02 AM UTC-6,
Post by a425couple
Musk plans city on Mars
June 23, 2017 Sarah Knapton
Elon Musk Picture: supplied
A city on Mars with a million inhabitants could be
achievable within 50 years, South African space
entrepreneur Elon Musk has forecast,
<snort> Elon Musk is full of crap. So's NASA.
NASA's stuck in the '60s but what's your beef with Musk?
Just the obvious. A city with a million inhabitants on
Mars isn't achievable within 50 years. It might be
remotely feasible to have a village with a hundred
inhabitants. Not likely but possible.
Why isn?t it achievable? Because you say so? I suspect
you're making a lot of assumptions based on the
capabilities of our incompetent government and not on what
SpaceX has working already or is planning.
He's proposing, what, a thousand ships? Carrying 200 people
each? That means multiple trips per ship. Feel free to use
Musk's own best guess estimates on the cost per trip, and
multiple that out to transport a million people. Tell us
when your calculator errors out from too big of numbers.
Maybe your problem is that you're using a calculator that
came as a prize in a crackerjack box.
His figures work out to 1-2 billion dollars a year, paid by
the passengers.
1,000,000 people total in 50 years is 20,000 per year, or 20
launches per year. So a hundred million per launch? Or half
that, at the lower end. SpaceX is currently charging $61
million to launch to low earth orbit. The reuse of the first
state is expeted to drop that to $43 million per launch. The
cost of a launch is directly proportional to the payload. The
payload needed to send someone to Mars is going to be at least
two orders of magnitude larger (and probalby three, when you
add in the materials need to build a permanent colony). And
that's just launch cost. Never mind food and other consumable
supplies need for months long trips.
So what does reusing all stages do?
Not five or six orders of magnitude reduction.
It's a retarded idea, from a man apparently descending into
dementia. Get over it.
Post by J. Clarke
So let's see, he's putting payloads in orbit and you're sitting
at a keyboard foaming at the mouth and _he_'s demented?
What have *you* done for the world? You're too fucking lazy to even
go a Google search on well documented subsidies. Or maybe just too
fucking stupid to understand it. Or maybe too fucking stupid to
*spell* it.
You're criticizing a man who is putting payloads into orbit and you can't
even come up with an original insult. Pathetic.
/You're/ arguing with Terry. Lured in again.
What can I say? I'm bored and he amuses me.
Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
2017-06-27 21:39:17 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
In article
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by J. Clarke
Post by Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
Post by J. Clarke
Post by Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
In article
Post by Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
In article
On Saturday, June 24, 2017 at 3:09:52 PM UTC-6, J.
In article
says...
On Saturday, June 24, 2017 at 10:06:02 AM
Post by a425couple
Musk plans city on Mars
June 23, 2017 Sarah Knapton
Elon Musk Picture: supplied
A city on Mars with a million inhabitants
could be achievable within 50 years, South
African space entrepreneur Elon Musk has
forecast,
<snort> Elon Musk is full of crap. So's
NASA.
NASA's stuck in the '60s but what's your beef
with Musk?
Just the obvious. A city with a million
inhabitants on Mars isn't achievable within 50
years. It might be remotely feasible to have a
village with a hundred inhabitants. Not likely
but possible.
Why isn?t it achievable? Because you say so? I
suspect you're making a lot of assumptions based on
the capabilities of our incompetent government and
not on what SpaceX has working already or is
planning.
He's proposing, what, a thousand ships? Carrying 200
people each? That means multiple trips per ship. Feel
free to use Musk's own best guess estimates on the
cost per trip, and multiple that out to transport a
million people. Tell us when your calculator errors
out from too big of numbers.
Maybe your problem is that you're using a calculator
that came as a prize in a crackerjack box.
His figures work out to 1-2 billion dollars a year,
paid by the passengers.
1,000,000 people total in 50 years is 20,000 per year,
or 20 launches per year. So a hundred million per
launch? Or half that, at the lower end. SpaceX is
currently charging $61 million to launch to low earth
orbit. The reuse of the first state is expeted to drop
that to $43 million per launch. The cost of a launch is
directly proportional to the payload. The payload needed
to send someone to Mars is going to be at least
two orders of magnitude larger (and probalby three, when
you add in the materials need to build a permanent
colony). And that's just launch cost. Never mind food
and other consumable supplies need for months long
trips.
So what does reusing all stages do?
Not five or six orders of magnitude reduction.
It's a retarded idea, from a man apparently descending into
dementia. Get over it.
Post by J. Clarke
So let's see, he's putting payloads in orbit and you're
sitting at a keyboard foaming at the mouth and _he_'s
demented?
What have *you* done for the world? You're too fucking lazy
to even go a Google search on well documented subsidies. Or
maybe just too fucking stupid to understand it. Or maybe
too fucking stupid to *spell* it.
You're criticizing a man who is putting payloads into orbit
and you can't even come up with an original insult.
Pathetic.
/You're/ arguing with Terry. Lured in again.
What can I say? I'm bored and he amuses me.
Just keep telling yourself that, while you type out another reply.
--
Terry Austin

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.
larry
2017-06-26 11:34:50 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by David Johnston
Post by a425couple
Musk plans city on Mars
June 23, 2017 Sarah Knapton
Elon Musk Picture: supplied
A city on Mars with a million inhabitants could be achievable within 50
years, South African space entrepreneur Elon Musk has forecast,
<snort> Elon Musk is full of crap. So's NASA.
There is a long chain of begged questions: whether 1/3G is
sufficient for proper gestation, development, and health
being somewhere near the top.
--
After investigation, believe that which you have yourselves
tested and found reasonable, and which is for your good
and that of others.
Gautama.
a425couple
2017-07-01 19:49:42 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by a425couple
Musk plans city on Mars
June 23, 2017 Sarah Knapton --
A city on Mars with a million inhabitants could be achievable within 50
years, South African space entrepreneur Elon Musk has forecast, as he
laid out plans to turn mankind into a multi-planetary species.----
Nasa has also said it is planning to establish a Mars colony by the
2030s, although it plans to establish a base on the Moon and other
stepping stones first, and the Mars One project, set up by a nonprofit
organisation based in the Netherlands, has proposed to establish a
permanent human colony there by 2027. – The Daily Telegraph
http://www.heraldlive.co.za/my-heraldlive/2017/06/23/musk-plans-city-mars/
And this is what Slate opinions:

How Plausible Is Elon Musk’s Plan to Colonize Mars?
By Andrew Coates
Eleventh-Commercial-Resupply-Services-Mission_1
Musk wants to launch 1,000 spaceships carrying 100 humans each in the
next 40 to 100 years.
NASA via Getty Images

This post originally appeared on The Conversation.

The Conversation
Elon Musk, the founder of SpaceX and Tesla, has released new details of
his vision to colonize parts of the solar system, including Mars,
Jupiter’s moon Europa, and Saturn’s moon Enceladus. His gung-ho
plans—designed to make humans a multiplanetary species in case
civilization collapses—include launching flights to Mars as early as 2023.

The details, just published in the journal New Space, are certainly
ambitious. But are they realistic? As someone who works on solar system
exploration, and the European Space Agency’s new Mars rover in
particular, I find them incredible in several ways.

First of all, let’s not dismiss Musk as a Silicon Valley daydreamer. He
has had tremendous success with rocket launches to space already. His
paper proposes several interesting ways of trying to get to Mars and
beyond—and he aims to build a “self-sustaining city” on the red planet.

The idea depends on getting cheaper access to space—the paper says the
cost of trips to Mars must be lowered by “five million percent.” An
important part of this will be reusable space technology. This is an
excellent idea that Musk is already putting into practice with
impressive landings of rocket stages back on Earth—undoubtedly a huge
technological step.

Making fuel on Mars and stations beyond it is something he also
proposes, to make the costs feasible. Experiments toward this are
underway, demonstrating that choosing the right propellant is key. The
MOXIE experiment on the NASA 2020 rover will investigate whether we can
produce oxygen from atmospheric CO2 on Mars. This may be possible. But
Musk would like to make methane as well—it would be cheaper and more
reusable. This is a tricky reaction which requires a lot of energy.

Yet, so far, it’s all fairly doable. But the plans then get more and
more incredible. Musk wants to launch enormous spaceships into orbit
around Earth where they will be refuelled several times using boosters
launched from the ground while waiting to head to Mars. Each will be
designed to take 100 people and Musk wants to launch 1,000 such ships in
the space of 40 to 100 years, enabling 1 million people to leave Earth.

There would also be interplanetary fuel-filling stations on bodies such
as Enceladus, Europa, and even Saturn’s moon Titan, where there may have
been, or may still be, life. Fuel would be produced and stored on these
moons. The aim of these would be to enable us to travel deeper into
space to places such as the Kuiper belt and the Oort cloud.

The “Red Dragon” capsule is proposed as a potential lander on such
missions using propulsion in combination with other technology rather
than parachutes as most Mars missions do. Musk plans to test such a
landing on Mars in 2020 with an unmanned mission. But it’s unclear
whether it’s doable, and the fuel requirements are huge.

Pie in the sky?

There are three hugely important things that Musk misses or dismisses in
the paper. Missions such as the ExoMars 2020 rover—and plans to return
samples to Earth—will search for signs of life on Mars. And we must
await the results before potentially contaminating Mars with humans and
their waste. Planetary bodies are covered by “planetary protection”
rules to avoid contamination, and it’s important for science that all
future missions follow them.

Another problem is that Musk dismisses one of the main technical
challenges of being on the Martian surface: the temperature. In just two
sentences he concludes:

It is a little cold, but we can warm it up. It has a very helpful
atmosphere, which, being primarily CO2 with some nitrogen and argon and
a few other trace elements, means that we can grow plants on Mars just
by compressing the atmosphere.
In reality, the temperature on Mars drops from about zero degrees
Celsius during the day to nearly -120 degrees Celsius at night.
Operating in such low temperatures is already extremely difficult for
small landers and rovers. In fact, it is an issue that has been solved
with heaters in the design for the 300kg ExoMars 2020 rover—but the
amount of power required would likely be a show-stopper for a
“self-sustaining city.”

Musk doesn’t give any details for how to warm the planet up or compress
the atmosphere—each of which are enormous engineering challenges.
Previously, science fiction writers have suggested
“terraforming”—possibly involving melting its icecaps. This is not only
changing the environment forever but would also be challenging in that
there is no magnetic field on Mars to help retain the new atmosphere
that such manipulation would create. Mars has been losing its atmosphere
gradually for 3.8 billion years—which means it would be hard to keep any
such warmed-up atmosphere from escaping into space.

The final major problem is that there is no mention of radiation beyond
Earth’s magnetic cocoon. The journey to and life on Mars would be
vulnerable to potentially fatal cosmic rays from our galaxy and from
solar flares. Forecasting for solar flares is in its infancy. With
current shielding technology, just a round-trip manned mission to Mars
would expose the astronauts to up to four times the advised career
limits for astronauts of radiation. It could also harm unmanned
spacecraft. Work is underway on predicting space weather and developing
better shielding. This would mitigate some of the problems—but we are
not there yet.

For missions farther afield, there are also questions about temperature
and radiation in using Europa and Enceladus as filling stations—with no
proper engineering studies assessing them. These moons are bathed in the
strongest radiation belts in the solar system. What’s more, I’d question
whether it is helpful to see these exciting scientific targets, arguably
even more likely than Mars to host current life, as “propellant depots.”

The plans for going further to the Kuiper belt and Oort cloud with
humans is firmly in the science fiction arena—it is simply too far and
we have no infrastructure. In fact, if Musk really wants to create a new
home for humans, the moon may be his best bet—it’s closer after all,
which would make it much cheaper.

That said, aiming high usually means we will achieve something—and
Musk’s latest plans may help pave the way for later exploration.

Future Tense is a partnership of Slate, New America, and Arizona State
University.

Andrew Coates is a professor of physics and the deputy director (solar
system) at the Mullard Space Science Laboratory, University College London.

http://www.slate.com/blogs/future_tense/2017/06/26/how_plausible_is_elon_musk_s_plan_to_colonize_mars.html
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