Discussion:
[A Bunch of Bujolds] The Warrior's Apprentice (Miles Vorkosigan, book 1) by Lois McMaster Bujold
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James Nicoll
2018-03-16 12:15:38 UTC
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The Warrior's Apprentice (Miles Vorkosigan, book 1) by Lois McMaster Bujold

https://jamesdavisnicoll.com/review/under-pressure
--
My reviews can be found at http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/
My Dreamwidth at https://james-davis-nicoll.dreamwidth.org/
My patreon is at https://www.patreon.com/jamesdnicoll
Scott Lurndal
2018-03-16 14:00:08 UTC
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***@panix.com (James Nicoll) writes:
>The Warrior's Apprentice (Miles Vorkosigan, book 1) by Lois McMaster Bujold
>
>https://jamesdavisnicoll.com/review/under-pressure

Exposure to a Toxic gas (it's even in the name, Soltoxin).

Exposure to a Lethal gas is, well, lethal.
Robert Woodward
2018-03-16 17:03:42 UTC
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In article <I5QqC.4570$***@fx34.iad>,
***@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) wrote:

> ***@panix.com (James Nicoll) writes:
> >The Warrior's Apprentice (Miles Vorkosigan, book 1) by Lois McMaster Bujold
> >
> >https://jamesdavisnicoll.com/review/under-pressure
>
> Exposure to a Toxic gas (it's even in the name, Soltoxin).
>
> Exposure to a Lethal gas is, well, lethal.

Not if the antidote was administered in time. In this particular case,
it was the antidote that did the damage.

--
"We have advanced to new and surprising levels of bafflement."
Imperial Auditor Miles Vorkosigan describes progress in _Komarr_.
-------------------------------------------------------
Robert Woodward ***@drizzle.com
David Johnston
2018-03-16 17:17:41 UTC
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On 2018-03-16 6:15 AM, James Nicoll wrote:
> The Warrior's Apprentice (Miles Vorkosigan, book 1) by Lois McMaster Bujold
>
> https://jamesdavisnicoll.com/review/under-pressure
>

Beta isn't a crapsack setting just because they treat all crime as the
product of mental illness. It's just weird.
Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
2018-03-16 18:46:45 UTC
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David Johnston <***@yahoo.com> wrote in
news:p8gu7l$197p$***@gioia.aioe.org:

> On 2018-03-16 6:15 AM, James Nicoll wrote:
>> The Warrior's Apprentice (Miles Vorkosigan, book 1) by Lois
>> McMaster Bujold
>>
>> https://jamesdavisnicoll.com/review/under-pressure
>>
>
> Beta isn't a crapsack setting just because they treat all crime
> as the product of mental illness. It's just weird.

One liberal's paradise is another libertarian's hell.

--
Terry Austin

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.
William Hyde
2018-03-16 18:59:31 UTC
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On Friday, March 16, 2018 at 2:46:49 PM UTC-4, Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha wrote:
> David Johnston <***@yahoo.com> wrote in
> news:p8gu7l$197p$***@gioia.aioe.org:
>
> > On 2018-03-16 6:15 AM, James Nicoll wrote:
> >> The Warrior's Apprentice (Miles Vorkosigan, book 1) by Lois
> >> McMaster Bujold
> >>
> >> https://jamesdavisnicoll.com/review/under-pressure
> >>
> >
> > Beta isn't a crapsack setting just because they treat all crime
> > as the product of mental illness. It's just weird.
>
> One liberal's paradise is another libertarian's hell.

Hell is other libertarians.

William Hyde
Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
2018-03-16 20:03:47 UTC
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William Hyde <***@gmail.com> wrote in
news:e04c2e5b-e731-4a5c-99a6-***@googlegroups.com:

> On Friday, March 16, 2018 at 2:46:49 PM UTC-4, Jibini Kula
> Tumbili Kujisalimisha wrote:
>> David Johnston <***@yahoo.com> wrote in
>> news:p8gu7l$197p$***@gioia.aioe.org:
>>
>> > On 2018-03-16 6:15 AM, James Nicoll wrote:
>> >> The Warrior's Apprentice (Miles Vorkosigan, book 1) by Lois
>> >> McMaster Bujold
>> >>
>> >> https://jamesdavisnicoll.com/review/under-pressure
>> >>
>> >
>> > Beta isn't a crapsack setting just because they treat all
>> > crime as the product of mental illness. It's just weird.
>>
>> One liberal's paradise is another libertarian's hell.
>
> Hell is other libertarians.
>
I've always seen Star Trek: The Next Generation, with mind reading
ship's counselors to *force* people to be happy, as a very, very
dystopic future.

--
Terry Austin

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.
Panthera Tigris Altaica
2018-03-16 21:24:36 UTC
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On Friday, March 16, 2018 at 4:03:51 PM UTC-4, Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha wrote:
> William Hyde <***@gmail.com> wrote in
> news:e04c2e5b-e731-4a5c-99a6-***@googlegroups.com:
>
> > On Friday, March 16, 2018 at 2:46:49 PM UTC-4, Jibini Kula
> > Tumbili Kujisalimisha wrote:
> >> David Johnston <***@yahoo.com> wrote in
> >> news:p8gu7l$197p$***@gioia.aioe.org:
> >>
> >> > On 2018-03-16 6:15 AM, James Nicoll wrote:
> >> >> The Warrior's Apprentice (Miles Vorkosigan, book 1) by Lois
> >> >> McMaster Bujold
> >> >>
> >> >> https://jamesdavisnicoll.com/review/under-pressure
> >> >>
> >> >
> >> > Beta isn't a crapsack setting just because they treat all
> >> > crime as the product of mental illness. It's just weird.
> >>
> >> One liberal's paradise is another libertarian's hell.
> >
> > Hell is other libertarians.
> >
> I've always seen Star Trek: The Next Generation, with mind reading
> ship's counselors to *force* people to be happy, as a very, very
> dystopic future.
>

If you merely think very loudly at the counselor whenever she gets into sight of exactly how happy doing certain things to her would make you, she would probably make sure to never be alone with you. If you then include whoever else is in the room in whatever it is that would make you happy, then she might stay as far away from you as she possibly can. If you never actually act on your thoughts, even the bald French captain could do little about it. Hmm. Perhaps a little low-level holodeck programming would be appropriate.
Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
2018-03-16 21:37:52 UTC
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Panthera Tigris Altaica <***@outlook.com> wrote in
news:dab3c683-f69c-47ad-a17d-***@googlegroups.com:

> On Friday, March 16, 2018 at 4:03:51 PM UTC-4, Jibini Kula
> Tumbili Kujisalimisha wrote:
>> William Hyde <***@gmail.com> wrote in
>> news:e04c2e5b-e731-4a5c-99a6-***@googlegroups.com:
>>
>> > On Friday, March 16, 2018 at 2:46:49 PM UTC-4, Jibini Kula
>> > Tumbili Kujisalimisha wrote:
>> >> David Johnston <***@yahoo.com> wrote in
>> >> news:p8gu7l$197p$***@gioia.aioe.org:
>> >>
>> >> > On 2018-03-16 6:15 AM, James Nicoll wrote:
>> >> >> The Warrior's Apprentice (Miles Vorkosigan, book 1) by
>> >> >> Lois McMaster Bujold
>> >> >>
>> >> >> https://jamesdavisnicoll.com/review/under-pressure
>> >> >>
>> >> >
>> >> > Beta isn't a crapsack setting just because they treat all
>> >> > crime as the product of mental illness. It's just weird.
>> >>
>> >> One liberal's paradise is another libertarian's hell.
>> >
>> > Hell is other libertarians.
>> >
>> I've always seen Star Trek: The Next Generation, with mind
>> reading ship's counselors to *force* people to be happy, as a
>> very, very dystopic future.
>>
>
> If you merely think very loudly at the counselor whenever she
> gets into sight of exactly how happy doing certain things to her
> would make you, she would probably make sure to never be alone
> with you.

I belive that, even in the 24th century, they have sedatives. And
restrainging straps.

--
Terry Austin

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.
Panthera Tigris Altaica
2018-03-17 00:46:55 UTC
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On Friday, March 16, 2018 at 5:37:55 PM UTC-4, Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha wrote:
> Panthera Tigris Altaica <***@outlook.com> wrote in
> news:dab3c683-f69c-47ad-a17d-***@googlegroups.com:
>
> > On Friday, March 16, 2018 at 4:03:51 PM UTC-4, Jibini Kula
> > Tumbili Kujisalimisha wrote:
> >> William Hyde <***@gmail.com> wrote in
> >> news:e04c2e5b-e731-4a5c-99a6-***@googlegroups.com:
> >>
> >> > On Friday, March 16, 2018 at 2:46:49 PM UTC-4, Jibini Kula
> >> > Tumbili Kujisalimisha wrote:
> >> >> David Johnston <***@yahoo.com> wrote in
> >> >> news:p8gu7l$197p$***@gioia.aioe.org:
> >> >>
> >> >> > On 2018-03-16 6:15 AM, James Nicoll wrote:
> >> >> >> The Warrior's Apprentice (Miles Vorkosigan, book 1) by
> >> >> >> Lois McMaster Bujold
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> https://jamesdavisnicoll.com/review/under-pressure
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Beta isn't a crapsack setting just because they treat all
> >> >> > crime as the product of mental illness. It's just weird.
> >> >>
> >> >> One liberal's paradise is another libertarian's hell.
> >> >
> >> > Hell is other libertarians.
> >> >
> >> I've always seen Star Trek: The Next Generation, with mind
> >> reading ship's counselors to *force* people to be happy, as a
> >> very, very dystopic future.
> >>
> >
> > If you merely think very loudly at the counselor whenever she
> > gets into sight of exactly how happy doing certain things to her
> > would make you, she would probably make sure to never be alone
> > with you.
>
> I belive that, even in the 24th century, they have sedatives. And
> restrainging straps.

Except that I hadn't acted on my thoughts. And if the counselor simply stays away, I would never act on my thoughts. Launching a pre-emptive strike would not be something that the bald French captain would support. (The bald black captain probably would, but he doesn't have a counselor, and he, famously, is NOT Picard. Janeway definitely would pre-empt. Kirk, now, the counselor would probably avoid him even more than me.
Ninapenda Jibini
2018-03-17 02:26:51 UTC
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Panthera Tigris Altaica <***@outlook.com> wrote in
news:7e5576c0-b8a5-4446-b37e-***@googlegroups.com:

> On Friday, March 16, 2018 at 5:37:55 PM UTC-4, Jibini Kula
> Tumbili Kujisalimisha wrote:
>> Panthera Tigris Altaica <***@outlook.com> wrote in
>> news:dab3c683-f69c-47ad-a17d-***@googlegroups.com:
>>
>> > On Friday, March 16, 2018 at 4:03:51 PM UTC-4, Jibini Kula
>> > Tumbili Kujisalimisha wrote:
>> >> William Hyde <***@gmail.com> wrote in
>> >> news:e04c2e5b-e731-4a5c-99a6-***@googlegroups.com:
>> >>
>> >> > On Friday, March 16, 2018 at 2:46:49 PM UTC-4, Jibini Kula
>> >> > Tumbili Kujisalimisha wrote:
>> >> >> David Johnston <***@yahoo.com> wrote in
>> >> >> news:p8gu7l$197p$***@gioia.aioe.org:
>> >> >>
>> >> >> > On 2018-03-16 6:15 AM, James Nicoll wrote:
>> >> >> >> The Warrior's Apprentice (Miles Vorkosigan, book 1) by
>> >> >> >> Lois McMaster Bujold
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> https://jamesdavisnicoll.com/review/under-pressure
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > Beta isn't a crapsack setting just because they treat
>> >> >> > all crime as the product of mental illness. It's just
>> >> >> > weird.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> One liberal's paradise is another libertarian's hell.
>> >> >
>> >> > Hell is other libertarians.
>> >> >
>> >> I've always seen Star Trek: The Next Generation, with mind
>> >> reading ship's counselors to *force* people to be happy, as
>> >> a very, very dystopic future.
>> >>
>> >
>> > If you merely think very loudly at the counselor whenever she
>> > gets into sight of exactly how happy doing certain things to
>> > her would make you, she would probably make sure to never be
>> > alone with you.
>>
>> I belive that, even in the 24th century, they have sedatives.
>> And restrainging straps.
>
> Except that I hadn't acted on my thoughts.

You are assuming today's rule of law protections. There are
episodes to suggest that is overly optomistic.

--
Terry Austin

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.
Panthera Tigris Altaica
2018-03-17 20:44:04 UTC
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On Friday, March 16, 2018 at 10:26:54 PM UTC-4, Ninapenda Jibini wrote:
> Panthera Tigris Altaica <***@outlook.com> wrote in
> news:7e5576c0-b8a5-4446-b37e-***@googlegroups.com:
>
> > On Friday, March 16, 2018 at 5:37:55 PM UTC-4, Jibini Kula
> > Tumbili Kujisalimisha wrote:
> >> Panthera Tigris Altaica <***@outlook.com> wrote in
> >> news:dab3c683-f69c-47ad-a17d-***@googlegroups.com:
> >>
> >> > On Friday, March 16, 2018 at 4:03:51 PM UTC-4, Jibini Kula
> >> > Tumbili Kujisalimisha wrote:
> >> >> William Hyde <***@gmail.com> wrote in
> >> >> news:e04c2e5b-e731-4a5c-99a6-***@googlegroups.com:
> >> >>
> >> >> > On Friday, March 16, 2018 at 2:46:49 PM UTC-4, Jibini Kula
> >> >> > Tumbili Kujisalimisha wrote:
> >> >> >> David Johnston <***@yahoo.com> wrote in
> >> >> >> news:p8gu7l$197p$***@gioia.aioe.org:
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> > On 2018-03-16 6:15 AM, James Nicoll wrote:
> >> >> >> >> The Warrior's Apprentice (Miles Vorkosigan, book 1) by
> >> >> >> >> Lois McMaster Bujold
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> https://jamesdavisnicoll.com/review/under-pressure
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> > Beta isn't a crapsack setting just because they treat
> >> >> >> > all crime as the product of mental illness. It's just
> >> >> >> > weird.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> One liberal's paradise is another libertarian's hell.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Hell is other libertarians.
> >> >> >
> >> >> I've always seen Star Trek: The Next Generation, with mind
> >> >> reading ship's counselors to *force* people to be happy, as
> >> >> a very, very dystopic future.
> >> >>
> >> >
> >> > If you merely think very loudly at the counselor whenever she
> >> > gets into sight of exactly how happy doing certain things to
> >> > her would make you, she would probably make sure to never be
> >> > alone with you.
> >>
> >> I belive that, even in the 24th century, they have sedatives.
> >> And restrainging straps.
> >
> > Except that I hadn't acted on my thoughts.
>
> You are assuming today's rule of law protections. There are
> episodes to suggest that is overly optomistic.

I'm assuming that the bald French captain won't do anything, umm, undiplomatic, and that the counselor cannot do much without his active assistance. Especially if doing something might result in her being alone with me for just long enough. On the other had, if she keeps her distance we'll get along just fine.

>
> --
> Terry Austin
>
> "Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
> -- David Bilek
>
> Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.
Ninapenda Jibini
2018-03-18 01:49:27 UTC
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Panthera Tigris Altaica <***@outlook.com> wrote in
news:cfac483e-6256-4e57-a12b-***@googlegroups.com:

> On Friday, March 16, 2018 at 10:26:54 PM UTC-4, Ninapenda Jibini
> wrote:
>> Panthera Tigris Altaica <***@outlook.com> wrote in
>> news:7e5576c0-b8a5-4446-b37e-***@googlegroups.com:
>>
>> > On Friday, March 16, 2018 at 5:37:55 PM UTC-4, Jibini Kula
>> > Tumbili Kujisalimisha wrote:
>> >> Panthera Tigris Altaica <***@outlook.com> wrote in
>> >> news:dab3c683-f69c-47ad-a17d-***@googlegroups.com:
>> >>
>> >> > On Friday, March 16, 2018 at 4:03:51 PM UTC-4, Jibini Kula
>> >> > Tumbili Kujisalimisha wrote:
>> >> >> William Hyde <***@gmail.com> wrote in
>> >> >> news:e04c2e5b-e731-4a5c-99a6-***@googlegroups.com
>> >> >> :
>> >> >>
>> >> >> > On Friday, March 16, 2018 at 2:46:49 PM UTC-4, Jibini
>> >> >> > Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha wrote:
>> >> >> >> David Johnston <***@yahoo.com> wrote in
>> >> >> >> news:p8gu7l$197p$***@gioia.aioe.org:
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> > On 2018-03-16 6:15 AM, James Nicoll wrote:
>> >> >> >> >> The Warrior's Apprentice (Miles Vorkosigan, book 1)
>> >> >> >> >> by Lois McMaster Bujold
>> >> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> >> https://jamesdavisnicoll.com/review/under-pressure
>> >> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> > Beta isn't a crapsack setting just because they
>> >> >> >> > treat all crime as the product of mental illness.
>> >> >> >> > It's just weird.
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> One liberal's paradise is another libertarian's hell.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > Hell is other libertarians.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> I've always seen Star Trek: The Next Generation, with
>> >> >> mind reading ship's counselors to *force* people to be
>> >> >> happy, as a very, very dystopic future.
>> >> >>
>> >> >
>> >> > If you merely think very loudly at the counselor whenever
>> >> > she gets into sight of exactly how happy doing certain
>> >> > things to her would make you, she would probably make sure
>> >> > to never be alone with you.
>> >>
>> >> I belive that, even in the 24th century, they have
>> >> sedatives. And restrainging straps.
>> >
>> > Except that I hadn't acted on my thoughts.
>>
>> You are assuming today's rule of law protections. There are
>> episodes to suggest that is overly optomistic.
>
> I'm assuming that

You, and not the people who actually rant the show, would get to
decide what would happen.

This is why you look stupid.

Except it's not just a look for you, is it?

--
Terry Austin

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.
Panthera Tigris Altaica
2018-03-20 22:03:46 UTC
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On Saturday, March 17, 2018 at 9:49:30 PM UTC-4, Ninapenda Jibini wrote:
> Panthera Tigris Altaica <***@outlook.com> wrote in
> news:cfac483e-6256-4e57-a12b-***@googlegroups.com:
>
> > On Friday, March 16, 2018 at 10:26:54 PM UTC-4, Ninapenda Jibini
> > wrote:
> >> Panthera Tigris Altaica <***@outlook.com> wrote in
> >> news:7e5576c0-b8a5-4446-b37e-***@googlegroups.com:
> >>
> >> > On Friday, March 16, 2018 at 5:37:55 PM UTC-4, Jibini Kula
> >> > Tumbili Kujisalimisha wrote:
> >> >> Panthera Tigris Altaica <***@outlook.com> wrote in
> >> >> news:dab3c683-f69c-47ad-a17d-***@googlegroups.com:
> >> >>
> >> >> > On Friday, March 16, 2018 at 4:03:51 PM UTC-4, Jibini Kula
> >> >> > Tumbili Kujisalimisha wrote:
> >> >> >> William Hyde <***@gmail.com> wrote in
> >> >> >> news:e04c2e5b-e731-4a5c-99a6-***@googlegroups.com
> >> >> >> :
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> > On Friday, March 16, 2018 at 2:46:49 PM UTC-4, Jibini
> >> >> >> > Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha wrote:
> >> >> >> >> David Johnston <***@yahoo.com> wrote in
> >> >> >> >> news:p8gu7l$197p$***@gioia.aioe.org:
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> > On 2018-03-16 6:15 AM, James Nicoll wrote:
> >> >> >> >> >> The Warrior's Apprentice (Miles Vorkosigan, book 1)
> >> >> >> >> >> by Lois McMaster Bujold
> >> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> >> https://jamesdavisnicoll.com/review/under-pressure
> >> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> >> > Beta isn't a crapsack setting just because they
> >> >> >> >> > treat all crime as the product of mental illness.
> >> >> >> >> > It's just weird.
> >> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> >> One liberal's paradise is another libertarian's hell.
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> > Hell is other libertarians.
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> I've always seen Star Trek: The Next Generation, with
> >> >> >> mind reading ship's counselors to *force* people to be
> >> >> >> happy, as a very, very dystopic future.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >
> >> >> > If you merely think very loudly at the counselor whenever
> >> >> > she gets into sight of exactly how happy doing certain
> >> >> > things to her would make you, she would probably make sure
> >> >> > to never be alone with you.
> >> >>
> >> >> I belive that, even in the 24th century, they have
> >> >> sedatives. And restrainging straps.
> >> >
> >> > Except that I hadn't acted on my thoughts.
> >>
> >> You are assuming today's rule of law protections. There are
> >> episodes to suggest that is overly optomistic.
> >
> > I'm assuming that
>
> You, and not the people who actually rant the show, would get to
> decide what would happen.

Yes, I did assume that. If the counselor had been removed completely from the show and if the bald French captain had grown a spinte it would have made for a more interesting show. As it was, I never did watch most episodes of TNG past the 5th season. I only saw two episodes of the 7th season and have little interest in seeing any more.

As usual you went Full Terry (tm) when the conversation went in a direction differently from the one you wanted. I had expected this rather earlier. Your reaction was late, but totally expected.
Ninapenda Jibini
2018-03-21 03:11:45 UTC
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Panthera Tigris Altaica <***@outlook.com> wrote in
news:3b692317-b79c-4975-ba40-***@googlegroups.com:

> On Saturday, March 17, 2018 at 9:49:30 PM UTC-4, Ninapenda
> Jibini wrote:
>> Panthera Tigris Altaica <***@outlook.com> wrote in
>> news:cfac483e-6256-4e57-a12b-***@googlegroups.com:
>>
>> > On Friday, March 16, 2018 at 10:26:54 PM UTC-4, Ninapenda
>> > Jibini wrote:
>> >> Panthera Tigris Altaica <***@outlook.com> wrote in
>> >> news:7e5576c0-b8a5-4446-b37e-***@googlegroups.com:
>> >>
>> >> > On Friday, March 16, 2018 at 5:37:55 PM UTC-4, Jibini Kula
>> >> > Tumbili Kujisalimisha wrote:
>> >> >> Panthera Tigris Altaica <***@outlook.com> wrote
>> >> >> in
>> >> >> news:dab3c683-f69c-47ad-a17d-***@googlegroups.com
>> >> >> :
>> >> >>
>> >> >> > On Friday, March 16, 2018 at 4:03:51 PM UTC-4, Jibini
>> >> >> > Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha wrote:
>> >> >> >> William Hyde <***@gmail.com> wrote in
>> >> >> >> news:e04c2e5b-e731-4a5c-99a6-***@googlegroups.
>> >> >> >> com
>> >> >> >> :
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> > On Friday, March 16, 2018 at 2:46:49 PM UTC-4,
>> >> >> >> > Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha wrote:
>> >> >> >> >> David Johnston <***@yahoo.com> wrote in
>> >> >> >> >> news:p8gu7l$197p$***@gioia.aioe.org:
>> >> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> >> > On 2018-03-16 6:15 AM, James Nicoll wrote:
>> >> >> >> >> >> The Warrior's Apprentice (Miles Vorkosigan, book
>> >> >> >> >> >> 1) by Lois McMaster Bujold
>> >> >> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> >> >> https://jamesdavisnicoll.com/review/under-pressur
>> >> >> >> >> >> e
>> >> >> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> >> > Beta isn't a crapsack setting just because they
>> >> >> >> >> > treat all crime as the product of mental illness.
>> >> >> >> >> > It's just weird.
>> >> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> >> One liberal's paradise is another libertarian's
>> >> >> >> >> hell.
>> >> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> > Hell is other libertarians.
>> >> >> >> >
>> >> >> >> I've always seen Star Trek: The Next Generation, with
>> >> >> >> mind reading ship's counselors to *force* people to be
>> >> >> >> happy, as a very, very dystopic future.
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > If you merely think very loudly at the counselor
>> >> >> > whenever she gets into sight of exactly how happy doing
>> >> >> > certain things to her would make you, she would
>> >> >> > probably make sure to never be alone with you.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> I belive that, even in the 24th century, they have
>> >> >> sedatives. And restrainging straps.
>> >> >
>> >> > Except that I hadn't acted on my thoughts.
>> >>
>> >> You are assuming today's rule of law protections. There are
>> >> episodes to suggest that is overly optomistic.
>> >
>> > I'm assuming that
>>
>> You, and not the people who actually rant the show, would get
>> to decide what would happen.
>
> Yes, I did assume that.

Which makes you stupid.

> As usual you went Full Terry (tm) when the conversation went in
> a direction differently from the one you wanted.

When the fish jump in the boat and club themsleves to death with an
oar, all that's left is the barbecue sauce.

--
Terry Austin

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.
William Hyde
2018-03-17 02:37:08 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On Friday, March 16, 2018 at 4:03:51 PM UTC-4, Ninapenda Jibini wrote:
> William Hyde <***@gmail.com> wrote in
> news:e04c2e5b-e731-4a5c-99a6-***@googlegroups.com:
>
> > On Friday, March 16, 2018 at 2:46:49 PM UTC-4, Jibini Kula
> > Tumbili Kujisalimisha wrote:
> >> David Johnston <***@yahoo.com> wrote in
> >> news:p8gu7l$197p$***@gioia.aioe.org:
> >>
> >> > On 2018-03-16 6:15 AM, James Nicoll wrote:
> >> >> The Warrior's Apprentice (Miles Vorkosigan, book 1) by Lois
> >> >> McMaster Bujold
> >> >>
> >> >> https://jamesdavisnicoll.com/review/under-pressure
> >> >>
> >> >
> >> > Beta isn't a crapsack setting just because they treat all
> >> > crime as the product of mental illness. It's just weird.
> >>
> >> One liberal's paradise is another libertarian's hell.
> >
> > Hell is other libertarians.
> >
> I've always seen Star Trek: The Next Generation,

Whereas I've never seen it.

with mind reading
> ship's counselors to *force* people to be happy, as a very, very
> dystopic future.

I agree entirely. I'd be very unhappy if I couldn't be unhappy.

William Hyde
Ninapenda Jibini
2018-03-17 05:06:05 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
William Hyde <***@gmail.com> wrote in
news:f763c454-b8bc-4d47-af64-***@googlegroups.com:

> On Friday, March 16, 2018 at 4:03:51 PM UTC-4, Ninapenda Jibini
> wrote:
>> William Hyde <***@gmail.com> wrote in
>> news:e04c2e5b-e731-4a5c-99a6-***@googlegroups.com:
>>
>> > On Friday, March 16, 2018 at 2:46:49 PM UTC-4, Jibini Kula
>> > Tumbili Kujisalimisha wrote:
>> >> David Johnston <***@yahoo.com> wrote in
>> >> news:p8gu7l$197p$***@gioia.aioe.org:
>> >>
>> >> > On 2018-03-16 6:15 AM, James Nicoll wrote:
>> >> >> The Warrior's Apprentice (Miles Vorkosigan, book 1) by
>> >> >> Lois McMaster Bujold
>> >> >>
>> >> >> https://jamesdavisnicoll.com/review/under-pressure
>> >> >>
>> >> >
>> >> > Beta isn't a crapsack setting just because they treat all
>> >> > crime as the product of mental illness. It's just weird.
>> >>
>> >> One liberal's paradise is another libertarian's hell.
>> >
>> > Hell is other libertarians.
>> >
>> I've always seen Star Trek: The Next Generation,
>
> Whereas I've never seen it.

There are a handful of episodes that are quite good. Mostly,
though, it's full of characters you just want to punch in the face.
>
> with mind reading
>> ship's counselors to *force* people to be happy, as a very,
>> very dystopic future.
>
> I agree entirely. I'd be very unhappy if I couldn't be unhappy.
>
Some people need *something* to complain about, even if it's that
they have nothing to complain about.

--
Terry Austin

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.
Dimensional Traveler
2018-03-17 05:49:21 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On 3/16/2018 10:06 PM, Ninapenda Jibini wrote:
> William Hyde <***@gmail.com> wrote in
> news:f763c454-b8bc-4d47-af64-***@googlegroups.com:
>
>> On Friday, March 16, 2018 at 4:03:51 PM UTC-4, Ninapenda Jibini
>> wrote:
>>> William Hyde <***@gmail.com> wrote in
>>> news:e04c2e5b-e731-4a5c-99a6-***@googlegroups.com:
>>>
>>>> On Friday, March 16, 2018 at 2:46:49 PM UTC-4, Jibini Kula
>>>> Tumbili Kujisalimisha wrote:
>>>>> David Johnston <***@yahoo.com> wrote in
>>>>> news:p8gu7l$197p$***@gioia.aioe.org:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 2018-03-16 6:15 AM, James Nicoll wrote:
>>>>>>> The Warrior's Apprentice (Miles Vorkosigan, book 1) by
>>>>>>> Lois McMaster Bujold
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> https://jamesdavisnicoll.com/review/under-pressure
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Beta isn't a crapsack setting just because they treat all
>>>>>> crime as the product of mental illness. It's just weird.
>>>>>
>>>>> One liberal's paradise is another libertarian's hell.
>>>>
>>>> Hell is other libertarians.
>>>>
>>> I've always seen Star Trek: The Next Generation,
>>
>> Whereas I've never seen it.
>
> There are a handful of episodes that are quite good. Mostly,
> though, it's full of characters you just want to punch in the face.
>>
>> with mind reading
>>> ship's counselors to *force* people to be happy, as a very,
>>> very dystopic future.
>>
>> I agree entirely. I'd be very unhappy if I couldn't be unhappy.
>>
> Some people need *something* to complain about, even if it's that
> they have nothing to complain about.
>
Or make-up things to complain about.

--
Inquiring minds want to know while minds with a self-preservation
instinct are running screaming.
Juho Julkunen
2018-03-17 11:57:19 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
In article <***@69.16.179.42>,
***@gmail.com says...
>
> William Hyde <***@gmail.com> wrote in
> news:f763c454-b8bc-4d47-af64-***@googlegroups.com:
>
> > On Friday, March 16, 2018 at 4:03:51 PM UTC-4, Ninapenda Jibini
> > wrote:

> >> I've always seen Star Trek: The Next Generation,
> >
> > Whereas I've never seen it.
>
> There are a handful of episodes that are quite good. Mostly,
> though, it's full of characters you just want to punch in the face.

A friend of mine developed a theory that NCC-1701-D was supposed to be
the flagship of the fleet until they realised it's so shoddily built
all the systems fail as soon as somebody looks at it funny.

At that point it was relegated to exploration and general errand
running, and became the supposedly prestigious dumping ground for
officers who nobody else wanted on their ships.

--
Juho Julkunen
Ninapenda Jibini
2018-03-17 18:15:51 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Juho Julkunen <***@hotmail.com> wrote in
news:***@news.kolumbus.fi:

> In article <***@69.16.179.42>,
> ***@gmail.com says...
>>
>> William Hyde <***@gmail.com> wrote in
>> news:f763c454-b8bc-4d47-af64-***@googlegroups.com:
>>
>> > On Friday, March 16, 2018 at 4:03:51 PM UTC-4, Ninapenda
>> > Jibini wrote:
>
>> >> I've always seen Star Trek: The Next Generation,
>> >
>> > Whereas I've never seen it.
>>
>> There are a handful of episodes that are quite good. Mostly,
>> though, it's full of characters you just want to punch in the
>> face.
>
> A friend of mine developed a theory that NCC-1701-D was supposed
> to be the flagship of the fleet until they realised it's so
> shoddily built all the systems fail as soon as somebody looks at
> it funny.
>
> At that point it was relegated to exploration and general errand
> running, and became the supposedly prestigious dumping ground
> for officers who nobody else wanted on their ships.
>
That would be consistent with the *real* "Picard Manuever" (famous
from the pilot episode), which is "Throw all your weapons at the
enemy's feat and *demand* his terms for your surrender."

--
Terry Austin

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.
Mike Van Pelt
2018-03-16 21:13:52 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
In article <p8gu7l$197p$***@gioia.aioe.org>,
David Johnston <***@yahoo.com> wrote:
>On 2018-03-16 6:15 AM, James Nicoll wrote:
>> The Warrior's Apprentice (Miles Vorkosigan, book 1) by Lois McMaster Bujold
>>
>> https://jamesdavisnicoll.com/review/under-pressure
>>
>Beta isn't a crapsack setting just because they treat all crime as the
>product of mental illness. It's just weird.

As I recall from Cordelia's little run-in with them, Beta *treats*
all mental illness. Consent does not enter into it, at all, and
"danger to self or others" is not a factor.

And as in the bad old Soviet Union, mental illness is defined
as having a perspective on reality that differs from "reality"
as the authorities choose to define it.

Disagreeing with Things The Authorities Know For certain
("Come on, Barrayarans aren't all monsters. Aral has some
good qualities, and he did not abuse me.") will get you ...
"treated"... Until you agree with whatever facts (real or
"alternate") the authorities believe. Or profess to believe.

Know what the authorities expect you to believe and be
willing to parrot it back to them, and Beta seems to be
a pretty nice place.

To me, that's sort of a "Other than that, Mrs. Lincoln,
how did you enjoy the play?" condition.

--
Mike Van Pelt | "I don't advise it unless you're nuts."
mvp at calweb.com | -- Ray Wilkinson, after riding out Hurricane
KE6BVH | Ike on Surfside Beach in Galveston
Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
2018-03-16 21:36:22 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
***@web1.calweb.com (Mike Van Pelt) wrote in
news:ksWqC.6049$***@fx06.iad:

> In article <p8gu7l$197p$***@gioia.aioe.org>,
> David Johnston <***@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>On 2018-03-16 6:15 AM, James Nicoll wrote:
>>> The Warrior's Apprentice (Miles Vorkosigan, book 1) by Lois
>>> McMaster Bujold
>>>
>>> https://jamesdavisnicoll.com/review/under-pressure
>>>
>>Beta isn't a crapsack setting just because they treat all crime
>>as the product of mental illness. It's just weird.
>
> As I recall from Cordelia's little run-in with them, Beta
> *treats* all mental illness. Consent does not enter into it, at
> all, and "danger to self or others" is not a factor.

Actually, there's a conversation in Cordelia's apartment about
patient consent, and it's very clear that the law requires it. They
just don't care in her case.
>
> And as in the bad old Soviet Union, mental illness is defined
> as having a perspective on reality that differs from "reality"
> as the authorities choose to define it.

That interpretation comes from you, not the text of the book. They
(say they) believe she has been programmed by Barrayran
intelligence, and as a matter of national security, need to
deprogram her. That's really *all* that's said explicitly. One
could also interpret it as her being too valuable a propaganda tool
for the current adminstration to allow any possibilty of errors in
following the script. For instance.

So, as usual, you're full of shit.

--
Terry Austin

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.
David Johnston
2018-03-16 22:12:45 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On 2018-03-16 3:13 PM, Mike Van Pelt wrote:
> In article <p8gu7l$197p$***@gioia.aioe.org>,
> David Johnston <***@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> On 2018-03-16 6:15 AM, James Nicoll wrote:
>>> The Warrior's Apprentice (Miles Vorkosigan, book 1) by Lois McMaster Bujold
>>>
>>> https://jamesdavisnicoll.com/review/under-pressure
>>>
>> Beta isn't a crapsack setting just because they treat all crime as the
>> product of mental illness. It's just weird.
>
> As I recall from Cordelia's little run-in with them, Beta *treats*
> all mental illness. Consent does not enter into it, at all, and
> "danger to self or others" is not a factor.

You recall incorrectly. In that scene not only were they bending the
hell out of their normal laws out of wartime hysteria ala Japanese
internment, but had to resort to the work-around of getting next-of-kin
consent. There's a big difference between "not perfect" and "dystopia".
Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
2018-03-16 22:33:47 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
David Johnston <***@yahoo.com> wrote in
news:p8hfgs$71s$***@gioia.aioe.org:

> On 2018-03-16 3:13 PM, Mike Van Pelt wrote:
>> In article <p8gu7l$197p$***@gioia.aioe.org>,
>> David Johnston <***@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>> On 2018-03-16 6:15 AM, James Nicoll wrote:
>>>> The Warrior's Apprentice (Miles Vorkosigan, book 1) by Lois
>>>> McMaster Bujold
>>>>
>>>> https://jamesdavisnicoll.com/review/under-pressure
>>>>
>>> Beta isn't a crapsack setting just because they treat all
>>> crime as the product of mental illness. It's just weird.
>>
>> As I recall from Cordelia's little run-in with them, Beta
>> *treats* all mental illness. Consent does not enter into it,
>> at all, and "danger to self or others" is not a factor.
>
> You recall incorrectly. In that scene not only were they bending
> the hell out of their normal laws out of wartime hysteria ala
> Japanese internment, but had to resort to the work-around of
> getting next-of-kin consent. There's a big difference between
> "not perfect" and "dystopia".
>
And the conditions of the moment were extraordinary.

--
Terry Austin

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.
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