Discussion:
authors who have predicted that the USA will become a Christian Theocracy
(too old to reply)
Lynn McGuire
2017-01-31 20:57:30 UTC
Permalink
I am reading a SF book right now about a Von Neumann probe that covers the next 150 years. In the book by 2050, the Earth has
aligned into six countries: The North American Christian Union named F.A.I.T.H., The United States of Europe, Australia, The
Brazilian Union, the African Union, and China.
https://www.amazon.com/We-Are-Legion-Bob-Bobiverse/dp/1680680323/

This is the second author that I have read who is predicting that the USA will soon devolve into a Christian Theocracy. As
Christian, I hope not, the church does not handle power well. The first author is Robert Heinlein. I am sure that there have been
others over the years that I am not remembering. Got any books or author names ?

Thanks,
Lynn
Scott Lurndal
2017-01-31 21:04:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lynn McGuire
This is the second author that I have read who is predicting that the USA will soon devolve into a Christian Theocracy. As
Christian, I hope not, the church does not handle power well. The first author is Robert Heinlein. I am sure that there have been
others over the years that I am not remembering. Got any books or author names ?
Heinlein wasn't _predicting anything_, just writing a story. It's fiction
designed to entertain the reader.
Lynn McGuire
2017-01-31 21:11:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Scott Lurndal
Post by Lynn McGuire
This is the second author that I have read who is predicting that the USA will soon devolve into a Christian Theocracy. As
Christian, I hope not, the church does not handle power well. The first author is Robert Heinlein. I am sure that there have been
others over the years that I am not remembering. Got any books or author names ?
Heinlein wasn't _predicting anything_, just writing a story. It's fiction
designed to entertain the reader.
Didn't Heinlein call many of his books "Future History" ? Nope, that was John Campbell that coined that phrase.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Future_History_(Heinlein)

Lynn
Kevrob
2017-01-31 21:55:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by Scott Lurndal
Post by Lynn McGuire
This is the second author that I have read who is predicting that the USA will soon devolve into a Christian Theocracy. As
Christian, I hope not, the church does not handle power well. The first author is Robert Heinlein. I am sure that there have been
others over the years that I am not remembering. Got any books or author names ?
Heinlein wasn't _predicting anything_, just writing a story. It's fiction
designed to entertain the reader.
Didn't Heinlein call many of his books "Future History" ? Nope, that was John Campbell that coined that phrase.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Future_History_(Heinlein)
Heinlein used a Theocratic America as a dystopia, but his heroes
fought back against it, and won.

"If This Goes On..." dates to 1940,, and is almost surely informed
by the failed experiment of Prohibition and radio preachers - both the
stereotypical hardshell Protestants and kooks like the Catholic priest
Charles Coughlin. Aimee Semple McPherson had been on the radio, and
tent-circuit revivalists like Billy Sunday had been a big deal.

A religious tyranny in America, proposed at the same time Mussolini
and Hitler were running theirs, probably seemed more a real threat
to a mid-western boy like RAH than any ghodless marxist dictatorship.

Kevin R
Dorothy J Heydt
2017-01-31 23:59:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by Scott Lurndal
Post by Lynn McGuire
This is the second author that I have read who is predicting that the
USA will soon devolve into a Christian Theocracy. As
Post by Scott Lurndal
Post by Lynn McGuire
Christian, I hope not, the church does not handle power well. The
first author is Robert Heinlein. I am sure that there have been
Post by Scott Lurndal
Post by Lynn McGuire
others over the years that I am not remembering. Got any books or
author names ?
Post by Scott Lurndal
Heinlein wasn't _predicting anything_, just writing a story. It's fiction
designed to entertain the reader.
Didn't Heinlein call many of his books "Future History" ? Nope, that
was John Campbell that coined that phrase.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Future_History_(Heinlein)
But Heinlein made use of it, just as Asimov made use of another
Campbellian discovery, the Three Laws of Robotics.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Ted Nolan <tednolan>
2017-01-31 21:53:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lynn McGuire
This is the second author that I have read who is predicting that the
USA will soon devolve into a Christian Theocracy. As
Christian, I hope not, the church does not handle power well. The first
author is Robert Heinlein. I am sure that there have been
Did Heinlein explicitly say it was a Christian theo? I mean that's
the natural assumption, but iirc about all we had was the name
Neimiah Scudder and he was never actually in a published story.
--
------
columbiaclosings.com
What's not in Columbia anymore..
David Johnston
2017-02-01 01:31:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Post by Lynn McGuire
This is the second author that I have read who is predicting that the
USA will soon devolve into a Christian Theocracy. As
Christian, I hope not, the church does not handle power well. The first
author is Robert Heinlein. I am sure that there have been
Did Heinlein explicitly say it was a Christian theo? I mean that's
the natural assumption, but iirc about all we had was the name
Neimiah Scudder and he was never actually in a published story.
Doesn't matter. Job is definitely Christian.
Ted Nolan <tednolan>
2017-02-01 04:50:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Johnston
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Post by Lynn McGuire
This is the second author that I have read who is predicting that the
USA will soon devolve into a Christian Theocracy. As
Christian, I hope not, the church does not handle power well. The first
author is Robert Heinlein. I am sure that there have been
Did Heinlein explicitly say it was a Christian theo? I mean that's
the natural assumption, but iirc about all we had was the name
Neimiah Scudder and he was never actually in a published story.
Doesn't matter. Job is definitely Christian.
Never got around to that one. Is it in the Future History? My impression
is that it wasn't.
--
------
columbiaclosings.com
What's not in Columbia anymore..
Dorothy J Heydt
2017-02-01 05:04:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Post by David Johnston
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Post by Lynn McGuire
This is the second author that I have read who is predicting that the
USA will soon devolve into a Christian Theocracy. As
Christian, I hope not, the church does not handle power well. The first
author is Robert Heinlein. I am sure that there have been
Did Heinlein explicitly say it was a Christian theo? I mean that's
the natural assumption, but iirc about all we had was the name
Neimiah Scudder and he was never actually in a published story.
Doesn't matter. Job is definitely Christian.
Never got around to that one. Is it in the Future History? My impression
is that it wasn't.
I think not; it's later.

Mind, my personal bias is that late Heinlein = bad Heinlein.
YMMV.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
David Johnston
2017-02-01 05:50:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Post by David Johnston
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Post by Lynn McGuire
This is the second author that I have read who is predicting that the
USA will soon devolve into a Christian Theocracy. As
Christian, I hope not, the church does not handle power well. The first
author is Robert Heinlein. I am sure that there have been
Did Heinlein explicitly say it was a Christian theo? I mean that's
the natural assumption, but iirc about all we had was the name
Neimiah Scudder and he was never actually in a published story.
Doesn't matter. Job is definitely Christian.
Never got around to that one. Is it in the Future History? My impression
is that it wasn't.
No but it still had a theocratic United States. And of course it's
virtually certain that Nehemiah Scudder was some variant of Christian.
The name alone...
Ted Nolan <tednolan>
2017-02-01 06:58:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Johnston
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Post by David Johnston
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Post by Lynn McGuire
This is the second author that I have read who is predicting that the
USA will soon devolve into a Christian Theocracy. As
Christian, I hope not, the church does not handle power well. The first
author is Robert Heinlein. I am sure that there have been
Did Heinlein explicitly say it was a Christian theo? I mean that's
the natural assumption, but iirc about all we had was the name
Neimiah Scudder and he was never actually in a published story.
Doesn't matter. Job is definitely Christian.
Never got around to that one. Is it in the Future History? My impression
is that it wasn't.
No but it still had a theocratic United States. And of course it's
virtually certain that Nehemiah Scudder was some variant of Christian.
The name alone...
Well, the name, technically, is Jewish.

I mean, I don't really doubt Heinlein had a Christian theocracy in
mind, but I don't think we can technically count it without some
in-story information on its theology. What if he were thinking of Utah?
--
------
columbiaclosings.com
What's not in Columbia anymore..
David Johnston
2017-02-01 18:23:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Post by David Johnston
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Post by David Johnston
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Post by Lynn McGuire
This is the second author that I have read who is predicting that the
USA will soon devolve into a Christian Theocracy. As
Christian, I hope not, the church does not handle power well. The first
author is Robert Heinlein. I am sure that there have been
Did Heinlein explicitly say it was a Christian theo? I mean that's
the natural assumption, but iirc about all we had was the name
Neimiah Scudder and he was never actually in a published story.
Doesn't matter. Job is definitely Christian.
Never got around to that one. Is it in the Future History? My impression
is that it wasn't.
No but it still had a theocratic United States. And of course it's
virtually certain that Nehemiah Scudder was some variant of Christian.
The name alone...
Well, the name, technically, is Jewish.
But the idea of a sudden surge of evangelical Judaism sweeping the
United States and electing a religious fanatic to impose it on the
unbelievers is just too much of a stretch.
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
I mean, I don't really doubt Heinlein had a Christian theocracy in
mind, but I don't think we can technically count it without some
in-story information on its theology. What if he were thinking of Utah?
What if he were? Mormon is close enough for government work.
James Nicoll
2017-02-01 18:58:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Johnston
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Post by David Johnston
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Post by David Johnston
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Post by Lynn McGuire
This is the second author that I have read who is predicting that the
USA will soon devolve into a Christian Theocracy. As
Christian, I hope not, the church does not handle power well. The first
author is Robert Heinlein. I am sure that there have been
Did Heinlein explicitly say it was a Christian theo? I mean that's
the natural assumption, but iirc about all we had was the name
Neimiah Scudder and he was never actually in a published story.
Doesn't matter. Job is definitely Christian.
Never got around to that one. Is it in the Future History? My impression
is that it wasn't.
No but it still had a theocratic United States. And of course it's
virtually certain that Nehemiah Scudder was some variant of Christian.
The name alone...
Well, the name, technically, is Jewish.
But the idea of a sudden surge of evangelical Judaism sweeping the
United States and electing a religious fanatic to impose it on the
unbelievers is just too much of a stretch.
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
I mean, I don't really doubt Heinlein had a Christian theocracy in
mind, but I don't think we can technically count it without some
in-story information on its theology. What if he were thinking of Utah?
What if he were? Mormon is close enough for government work.
Isn't it entirely reasonable to treat everything after Saul of Tarus
got his fingers on the cult as a heretical offshoot and not authentic
Christianity?
--
My reviews can be found at http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/
My Livejournal at http://www.livejournal.com/users/james_nicoll
My patreon is at https://www.patreon.com/jamesdnicoll
Juho Julkunen
2017-02-01 19:31:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by James Nicoll
Post by David Johnston
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Post by David Johnston
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Post by David Johnston
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Post by Lynn McGuire
This is the second author that I have read who is predicting that the
USA will soon devolve into a Christian Theocracy. As
Christian, I hope not, the church does not handle power well. The first
author is Robert Heinlein. I am sure that there have been
Did Heinlein explicitly say it was a Christian theo? I mean that's
the natural assumption, but iirc about all we had was the name
Neimiah Scudder and he was never actually in a published story.
Doesn't matter. Job is definitely Christian.
Never got around to that one. Is it in the Future History? My impression
is that it wasn't.
No but it still had a theocratic United States. And of course it's
virtually certain that Nehemiah Scudder was some variant of Christian.
The name alone...
Well, the name, technically, is Jewish.
But the idea of a sudden surge of evangelical Judaism sweeping the
United States and electing a religious fanatic to impose it on the
unbelievers is just too much of a stretch.
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
I mean, I don't really doubt Heinlein had a Christian theocracy in
mind, but I don't think we can technically count it without some
in-story information on its theology. What if he were thinking of Utah?
What if he were? Mormon is close enough for government work.
Isn't it entirely reasonable to treat everything after Saul of Tarus
got his fingers on the cult as a heretical offshoot and not authentic
Christianity?
That's kinda presuming that Jesus cult (or cults, more likely) was
authentic Christianity.

It's also worth remembering that Saul penned his letters before the
Gospels were written.
--
Juho Julkunen
Scott Lurndal
2017-02-01 19:46:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Juho Julkunen
Post by James Nicoll
Post by David Johnston
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
I mean, I don't really doubt Heinlein had a Christian theocracy in
mind, but I don't think we can technically count it without some
in-story information on its theology. What if he were thinking of Utah?
What if he were? Mormon is close enough for government work.
Isn't it entirely reasonable to treat everything after Saul of Tarus
got his fingers on the cult as a heretical offshoot and not authentic
Christianity?
That's kinda presuming that Jesus cult (or cults, more likely) was
authentic Christianity.
It's also worth remembering that Saul penned his letters before the
Gospels were written.
And it's worth remembering that the gospels were written between 50 and
100 years after the events they claim to document. Telephone game anyone?
William December Starr
2017-02-01 22:53:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by James Nicoll
Isn't it entirely reasonable to treat everything after Saul of
Tarus got his fingers on the cult as a heretical offshoot and not
authentic Christianity?
Insert famous mistranslated Friedrich Nietzsche quote here.

spoiler space, if it matters
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"The last true Christian died on the cross."

Apparently a competent translator would have had it "In
truth, there was only one Christian and he died on the
cross." But I think we can all agree which one sounds
better.

-- wds
Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
2017-02-01 22:27:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by William December Starr
Post by James Nicoll
Isn't it entirely reasonable to treat everything after Saul of
Tarus got his fingers on the cult as a heretical offshoot and
not authentic Christianity?
Insert famous mistranslated Friedrich Nietzsche quote here.
spoiler space, if it matters
...
...
...
...
...
...
...
...
...
...
...
...
...
...
...
...
...
...
...
...
...
...
...
...
"The last true Christian died on the cross."
Apparently a competent translator would have had it "In
truth, there was only one Christian and he died on the
cross." But I think we can all agree which one sounds
better.
I find the argument that Christ was *not* a Christian (in his own
mind, at least) far more convincing. Seems a little too . . .
masturbatory, to me.
--
Terry Austin

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.
Lynn McGuire
2017-02-02 00:27:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
Post by William December Starr
Post by James Nicoll
Isn't it entirely reasonable to treat everything after Saul of
Tarus got his fingers on the cult as a heretical offshoot and
not authentic Christianity?
Insert famous mistranslated Friedrich Nietzsche quote here.
spoiler space, if it matters
...
...
...
...
...
...
...
...
...
...
...
...
...
...
...
...
...
...
...
...
...
...
...
...
"The last true Christian died on the cross."
Apparently a competent translator would have had it "In
truth, there was only one Christian and he died on the
cross." But I think we can all agree which one sounds
better.
I find the argument that Christ was *not* a Christian (in his own
mind, at least) far more convincing. Seems a little too . . .
masturbatory, to me.
Christian means a follower of the Christ. Can you be a follower of yourself ?

Jesus was a Jewish Rabbi and Prophet. And he was the Messiah when he started his ministry at the age of 30. And he was the Son of God.

BTW, all of the Christians who were baptized by John the Baptist had to get re-baptized after Jesus's death. I'm sure that worked
out well (not).

Lynn
Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
2017-02-02 00:00:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
Post by William December Starr
Post by James Nicoll
Isn't it entirely reasonable to treat everything after Saul
of Tarus got his fingers on the cult as a heretical offshoot
and not authentic Christianity?
Insert famous mistranslated Friedrich Nietzsche quote here.
spoiler space, if it matters
...
...
...
...
...
...
...
...
...
...
...
...
...
...
...
...
...
...
...
...
...
...
...
...
"The last true Christian died on the cross."
Apparently a competent translator would have had it "In
truth, there was only one Christian and he died on the
cross." But I think we can all agree which one sounds
better.
I find the argument that Christ was *not* a Christian (in his
own mind, at least) far more convincing. Seems a little too . .
. masturbatory, to me.
Christian means a follower of the Christ. Can you be a follower of yourself ?
That's a rather philosophical question, don't you think? Like
"What's the definition of science fiction?" If you ask a hundred
people, you'll get two hundred different answers.
--
Terry Austin

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.
Lynn McGuire
2017-02-02 01:02:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
Post by William December Starr
Post by James Nicoll
Isn't it entirely reasonable to treat everything after Saul
of Tarus got his fingers on the cult as a heretical offshoot
and not authentic Christianity?
Insert famous mistranslated Friedrich Nietzsche quote here.
spoiler space, if it matters
...
...
...
...
...
...
...
...
...
...
...
...
...
...
...
...
...
...
...
...
...
...
...
...
"The last true Christian died on the cross."
Apparently a competent translator would have had it "In
truth, there was only one Christian and he died on the
cross." But I think we can all agree which one sounds
better.
I find the argument that Christ was *not* a Christian (in his
own mind, at least) far more convincing. Seems a little too . .
. masturbatory, to me.
Christian means a follower of the Christ. Can you be a follower of yourself ?
That's a rather philosophical question, don't you think? Like
"What's the definition of science fiction?" If you ask a hundred
people, you'll get two hundred different answers.
Everything is philosophical. Everything.

Lynn
Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
2017-02-02 00:57:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
Post by William December Starr
Post by James Nicoll
Isn't it entirely reasonable to treat everything after Saul
of Tarus got his fingers on the cult as a heretical
offshoot and not authentic Christianity?
Insert famous mistranslated Friedrich Nietzsche quote here.
spoiler space, if it matters
...
...
...
...
...
...
...
...
...
...
...
...
...
...
...
...
...
...
...
...
...
...
...
...
"The last true Christian died on the cross."
Apparently a competent translator would have had it "In
truth, there was only one Christian and he died on the
cross." But I think we can all agree which one sounds
better.
I find the argument that Christ was *not* a Christian (in his
own mind, at least) far more convincing. Seems a little too .
. . masturbatory, to me.
Christian means a follower of the Christ. Can you be a
follower of yourself ?
That's a rather philosophical question, don't you think? Like
"What's the definition of science fiction?" If you ask a
hundred people, you'll get two hundred different answers.
Everything is philosophical. Everything.
But some things far more than others.
--
Terry Austin

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.
Dorothy J Heydt
2017-02-01 22:51:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by James Nicoll
Post by David Johnston
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Post by David Johnston
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Post by David Johnston
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Post by Lynn McGuire
This is the second author that I have read who is predicting that the
USA will soon devolve into a Christian Theocracy. As
Christian, I hope not, the church does not handle power well. The first
author is Robert Heinlein. I am sure that there have been
Did Heinlein explicitly say it was a Christian theo? I mean that's
the natural assumption, but iirc about all we had was the name
Neimiah Scudder and he was never actually in a published story.
Doesn't matter. Job is definitely Christian.
Never got around to that one. Is it in the Future History? My impression
is that it wasn't.
No but it still had a theocratic United States. And of course it's
virtually certain that Nehemiah Scudder was some variant of Christian.
The name alone...
Well, the name, technically, is Jewish.
But the idea of a sudden surge of evangelical Judaism sweeping the
United States and electing a religious fanatic to impose it on the
unbelievers is just too much of a stretch.
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
I mean, I don't really doubt Heinlein had a Christian theocracy in
mind, but I don't think we can technically count it without some
in-story information on its theology. What if he were thinking of Utah?
What if he were? Mormon is close enough for government work.
Isn't it entirely reasonable to treat everything after Saul of Tarus
got his fingers on the cult as a heretical offshoot and not authentic
Christianity?
Since you ask, no. If you wanted to say that Christianity itself
is a heretical offshoot of Judaism, well, that's what the Jews
were saying at the time.

During the words of the Roman persecutions of Christians, Jews
weren't persecuted, or not much, and that's because they didn't
proselytize. Ovid, in _The Art of Love_, suggests celebrating
minor holidays with your mistress, such as "that one day out of
seven when the Jew will do no manner of work." Jews wouldn't
worship the Emperor either, but they didn't get in your face
about it and the Christians did.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Kevrob
2017-02-01 23:05:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by James Nicoll
Post by David Johnston
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Post by David Johnston
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Post by David Johnston
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Post by Lynn McGuire
This is the second author that I have read who is predicting that the
USA will soon devolve into a Christian Theocracy. As
Christian, I hope not, the church does not handle power well. The first
author is Robert Heinlein. I am sure that there have been
Did Heinlein explicitly say it was a Christian theo? I mean that's
the natural assumption, but iirc about all we had was the name
Neimiah Scudder and he was never actually in a published story.
Doesn't matter. Job is definitely Christian.
Never got around to that one. Is it in the Future History? My impression
is that it wasn't.
No but it still had a theocratic United States. And of course it's
virtually certain that Nehemiah Scudder was some variant of Christian.
The name alone...
Well, the name, technically, is Jewish.
But the idea of a sudden surge of evangelical Judaism sweeping the
United States and electing a religious fanatic to impose it on the
unbelievers is just too much of a stretch.
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
I mean, I don't really doubt Heinlein had a Christian theocracy in
mind, but I don't think we can technically count it without some
in-story information on its theology. What if he were thinking of Utah?
What if he were? Mormon is close enough for government work.
Isn't it entirely reasonable to treat everything after Saul of Tarus
got his fingers on the cult as a heretical offshoot and not authentic
Christianity?
Since you ask, no. If you wanted to say that Christianity itself
is a heretical offshoot of Judaism, well, that's what the Jews
were saying at the time.
During the words of the Roman persecutions of Christians, Jews
weren't persecuted, or not much, and that's because they didn't
proselytize. Ovid, in _The Art of Love_, suggests celebrating
minor holidays with your mistress, such as "that one day out of
seven when the Jew will do no manner of work." Jews wouldn't
worship the Emperor either, but they didn't get in your face
about it and the Christians did.
Except when the Emperor's boys desecrated teh Temple, and
then you got the Maccabean Revolt. But that was Jews having
a fight with other Jews that set that off. Or so the legends say.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maccabean_Revolt

If it was a question only of what the goyim were doing, then the MOTS
didn't and don't care, right?

Kevin R
Dorothy J Heydt
2017-02-01 22:47:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Johnston
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Post by David Johnston
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Post by David Johnston
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Post by Lynn McGuire
This is the second author that I have read who is predicting that the
USA will soon devolve into a Christian Theocracy. As
Christian, I hope not, the church does not handle power well. The first
author is Robert Heinlein. I am sure that there have been
Did Heinlein explicitly say it was a Christian theo? I mean that's
the natural assumption, but iirc about all we had was the name
Neimiah Scudder and he was never actually in a published story.
Doesn't matter. Job is definitely Christian.
Never got around to that one. Is it in the Future History? My impression
is that it wasn't.
No but it still had a theocratic United States. And of course it's
virtually certain that Nehemiah Scudder was some variant of Christian.
The name alone...
Well, the name, technically, is Jewish.
But the idea of a sudden surge of evangelical Judaism sweeping the
United States and electing a religious fanatic to impose it on the
unbelievers is just too much of a stretch.
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
I mean, I don't really doubt Heinlein had a Christian theocracy in
mind, but I don't think we can technically count it without some
in-story information on its theology. What if he were thinking of Utah?
What if he were? Mormon is close enough for government work.
Depends on who you talk to. Some people (I've met them) don't
think *Catholics*, let alone Mormons, are Christians.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
2017-02-01 22:22:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by David Johnston
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Post by David Johnston
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Post by David Johnston
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Post by Lynn McGuire
This is the second author that I have read who is
predicting that the USA will soon devolve into a
Christian Theocracy. As Christian, I hope not, the
church does not handle power well. The first author is
Robert Heinlein. I am sure that there have been
Did Heinlein explicitly say it was a Christian theo? I
mean that's the natural assumption, but iirc about all we
had was the name Neimiah Scudder and he was never actually
in a published story.
Doesn't matter. Job is definitely Christian.
Never got around to that one. Is it in the Future History?
My impression is that it wasn't.
No but it still had a theocratic United States. And of
course it's virtually certain that Nehemiah Scudder was some
variant of Christian. The name alone...
Well, the name, technically, is Jewish.
But the idea of a sudden surge of evangelical Judaism sweeping
the United States and electing a religious fanatic to impose it
on the unbelievers is just too much of a stretch.
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
I mean, I don't really doubt Heinlein had a Christian
theocracy in mind, but I don't think we can technically count
it without some in-story information on its theology. What if
he were thinking of Utah?
What if he were? Mormon is close enough for government work.
Depends on who you talk to. Some people (I've met them) don't
think *Catholics*, let alone Mormons, are Christians.
You've heard of Jack Chick, then?
--
Terry Austin

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.
Dorothy J Heydt
2017-02-02 02:26:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by David Johnston
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Post by David Johnston
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Post by David Johnston
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Post by Lynn McGuire
This is the second author that I have read who is
predicting that the USA will soon devolve into a
Christian Theocracy. As Christian, I hope not, the
church does not handle power well. The first author is
Robert Heinlein. I am sure that there have been
Did Heinlein explicitly say it was a Christian theo? I
mean that's the natural assumption, but iirc about all we
had was the name Neimiah Scudder and he was never actually
in a published story.
Doesn't matter. Job is definitely Christian.
Never got around to that one. Is it in the Future History?
My impression is that it wasn't.
No but it still had a theocratic United States. And of
course it's virtually certain that Nehemiah Scudder was some
variant of Christian. The name alone...
Well, the name, technically, is Jewish.
But the idea of a sudden surge of evangelical Judaism sweeping
the United States and electing a religious fanatic to impose it
on the unbelievers is just too much of a stretch.
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
I mean, I don't really doubt Heinlein had a Christian
theocracy in mind, but I don't think we can technically count
it without some in-story information on its theology. What if
he were thinking of Utah?
What if he were? Mormon is close enough for government work.
Depends on who you talk to. Some people (I've met them) don't
think *Catholics*, let alone Mormons, are Christians.
You've heard of Jack Chick, then?
No.

/google

...

Well, I have now. I also observe he's dead.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Juho Julkunen
2017-02-02 02:51:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by David Johnston
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Post by David Johnston
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Post by David Johnston
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Post by Lynn McGuire
This is the second author that I have read who is
predicting that the USA will soon devolve into a
Christian Theocracy. As Christian, I hope not, the
church does not handle power well. The first author is
Robert Heinlein. I am sure that there have been
Did Heinlein explicitly say it was a Christian theo? I
mean that's the natural assumption, but iirc about all we
had was the name Neimiah Scudder and he was never actually
in a published story.
Doesn't matter. Job is definitely Christian.
Never got around to that one. Is it in the Future History?
My impression is that it wasn't.
No but it still had a theocratic United States. And of
course it's virtually certain that Nehemiah Scudder was some
variant of Christian. The name alone...
Well, the name, technically, is Jewish.
But the idea of a sudden surge of evangelical Judaism sweeping
the United States and electing a religious fanatic to impose it
on the unbelievers is just too much of a stretch.
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
I mean, I don't really doubt Heinlein had a Christian
theocracy in mind, but I don't think we can technically count
it without some in-story information on its theology. What if
he were thinking of Utah?
What if he were? Mormon is close enough for government work.
Depends on who you talk to. Some people (I've met them) don't
think *Catholics*, let alone Mormons, are Christians.
You've heard of Jack Chick, then?
No.
/google
...
Well, I have now. I also observe he's dead.
But his art will live forever.
--
Juho Julkunen
Mostly in public restrooms.
Kevrob
2017-02-02 04:04:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by Juho Julkunen
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
You've heard of Jack Chick, then?
No.
/google
...
Well, I have now. I also observe he's dead.
But his art will live forever.
and it made this possible:

http://foo.ca/wp/chick-tract-satire/who-will-be-eaten-first/

Kevin R
Dorothy J Heydt
2017-02-02 04:41:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kevrob
Post by Juho Julkunen
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
You've heard of Jack Chick, then?
No.
/google
...
Well, I have now. I also observe he's dead.
But his art will live forever.
http://foo.ca/wp/chick-tract-satire/who-will-be-eaten-first/
The movie was better.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
2017-02-02 03:57:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by J. Clarke
In article
On Wednesday, February 1, 2017 at 9:51:34 PM UTC-5, Juho
Post by J. Clarke
says...
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
You've heard of Jack Chick, then?
No.
/google
...
Well, I have now. I also observe he's dead.
But his art will live forever.
http://foo.ca/wp/chick-tract-satire/who-will-be-eaten-first/
The movie was better.
If you'd never heard of Chick before, I'm guessing you're not
referring to this movie:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_Dungeons_(film)
--
Terry Austin

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.
Dorothy J Heydt
2017-02-02 05:19:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
Post by J. Clarke
In article
On Wednesday, February 1, 2017 at 9:51:34 PM UTC-5, Juho
Post by J. Clarke
says...
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
You've heard of Jack Chick, then?
No.
/google
...
Well, I have now. I also observe he's dead.
But his art will live forever.
http://foo.ca/wp/chick-tract-satire/who-will-be-eaten-first/
The movie was better.
If you'd never heard of Chick before, I'm guessing you're not
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_Dungeons_(film)
Nope, _The Call of Cthulhu,_ by the H. P. Lovecraft Historical
Society. Made after the fashion of a 1920s silent film. Made on
a tiny budget and it shows, rather, but an excellent rendition of
the story.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0478988/?ref_=nv_sr_1

https://www.amazon.com/Call-Cthulhu-Sean-Branney/dp/B000BQTC98
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Dorothy J Heydt
2017-02-02 04:38:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Juho Julkunen
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by David Johnston
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Post by David Johnston
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Post by David Johnston
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Post by Lynn McGuire
This is the second author that I have read who is
predicting that the USA will soon devolve into a
Christian Theocracy. As Christian, I hope not, the
church does not handle power well. The first author is
Robert Heinlein. I am sure that there have been
Did Heinlein explicitly say it was a Christian theo? I
mean that's the natural assumption, but iirc about all we
had was the name Neimiah Scudder and he was never actually
in a published story.
Doesn't matter. Job is definitely Christian.
Never got around to that one. Is it in the Future History?
My impression is that it wasn't.
No but it still had a theocratic United States. And of
course it's virtually certain that Nehemiah Scudder was some
variant of Christian. The name alone...
Well, the name, technically, is Jewish.
But the idea of a sudden surge of evangelical Judaism sweeping
the United States and electing a religious fanatic to impose it
on the unbelievers is just too much of a stretch.
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
I mean, I don't really doubt Heinlein had a Christian
theocracy in mind, but I don't think we can technically count
it without some in-story information on its theology. What if
he were thinking of Utah?
What if he were? Mormon is close enough for government work.
Depends on who you talk to. Some people (I've met them) don't
think *Catholics*, let alone Mormons, are Christians.
You've heard of Jack Chick, then?
No.
/google
...
Well, I have now. I also observe he's dead.
But his art will live forever.
Let's hope not. I don't suppose he used very high-quality paper.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
David Johnston
2017-02-02 06:16:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Juho Julkunen
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by David Johnston
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Post by David Johnston
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Post by David Johnston
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Post by Lynn McGuire
This is the second author that I have read who is
predicting that the USA will soon devolve into a
Christian Theocracy. As Christian, I hope not, the
church does not handle power well. The first author is
Robert Heinlein. I am sure that there have been
Did Heinlein explicitly say it was a Christian theo? I
mean that's the natural assumption, but iirc about all we
had was the name Neimiah Scudder and he was never actually
in a published story.
Doesn't matter. Job is definitely Christian.
Never got around to that one. Is it in the Future History?
My impression is that it wasn't.
No but it still had a theocratic United States. And of
course it's virtually certain that Nehemiah Scudder was some
variant of Christian. The name alone...
Well, the name, technically, is Jewish.
But the idea of a sudden surge of evangelical Judaism sweeping
the United States and electing a religious fanatic to impose it
on the unbelievers is just too much of a stretch.
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
I mean, I don't really doubt Heinlein had a Christian
theocracy in mind, but I don't think we can technically count
it without some in-story information on its theology. What if
he were thinking of Utah?
What if he were? Mormon is close enough for government work.
Depends on who you talk to. Some people (I've met them) don't
think *Catholics*, let alone Mormons, are Christians.
You've heard of Jack Chick, then?
No.
/google
...
Well, I have now. I also observe he's dead.
But his art will live forever.
Let's hope not. I don't suppose he used very high-quality paper.
Ah but having been posted online...

Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
2017-02-02 03:55:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by David Johnston
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Post by David Johnston
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Post by David Johnston
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Post by Lynn McGuire
This is the second author that I have read who is
predicting that the USA will soon devolve into a
Christian Theocracy. As Christian, I hope not, the
church does not handle power well. The first author is
Robert Heinlein. I am sure that there have been
Did Heinlein explicitly say it was a Christian theo? I
mean that's the natural assumption, but iirc about all
we had was the name Neimiah Scudder and he was never
actually in a published story.
Doesn't matter. Job is definitely Christian.
Never got around to that one. Is it in the Future
History? My impression is that it wasn't.
No but it still had a theocratic United States. And of
course it's virtually certain that Nehemiah Scudder was
some variant of Christian. The name alone...
Well, the name, technically, is Jewish.
But the idea of a sudden surge of evangelical Judaism sweeping
the United States and electing a religious fanatic to impose
it on the unbelievers is just too much of a stretch.
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
I mean, I don't really doubt Heinlein had a Christian
theocracy in mind, but I don't think we can technically
count it without some in-story information on its theology.
What if he were thinking of Utah?
What if he were? Mormon is close enough for government work.
Depends on who you talk to. Some people (I've met them) don't
think *Catholics*, let alone Mormons, are Christians.
You've heard of Jack Chick, then?
No.
/google
...
Well, I have now. I also observe he's dead.
And very few lament his passing. But many still laugh at what a
wingnut he was.
--
Terry Austin

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.
Gene Wirchenko
2017-02-01 19:30:56 UTC
Permalink
On 1 Feb 2017 06:58:38 GMT, ***@loft.tnolan.com (Ted Nolan <tednolan>)
wrote:

[snip]
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
I mean, I don't really doubt Heinlein had a Christian theocracy in
mind, but I don't think we can technically count it without some
in-story information on its theology. What if he were thinking of Utah?
He was not. After the success, other groups revealed themselves.
One was from Utah.

Sincerely,

Gene Wirchenko
Quadibloc
2017-02-01 19:57:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by Gene Wirchenko
[snip]
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
I mean, I don't really doubt Heinlein had a Christian theocracy in
mind, but I don't think we can technically count it without some
in-story information on its theology. What if he were thinking of Utah?
He was not. After the success, other groups revealed themselves.
One was from Utah.
Apparently, the group identified as the "Pariahs" in the story were the Jews,
although when I first read it, I thought Heinlein was referring to the Mormons.

While there were definitely analogies that could be drawn between the Prophet's
sect and Mormonism - it seemed to be a variant of Christianity having a similar
level of divergence with orthodox Christianity - it was also clear they weren't
related.

John Savard
J. Clarke
2017-02-01 04:32:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Post by Lynn McGuire
This is the second author that I have read who is predicting that the
USA will soon devolve into a Christian Theocracy. As
Christian, I hope not, the church does not handle power well. The first
author is Robert Heinlein. I am sure that there have been
Did Heinlein explicitly say it was a Christian theo? I mean that's
the natural assumption, but iirc about all we had was the name
Neimiah Scudder and he was never actually in a published story.
Well, he was called "The Prophet Incarnate"
IIRC, and there were other hints in other
stories, such as the "No Sparrow Shall Fall" air
traffic control system.
Ted Nolan <tednolan>
2017-02-01 04:50:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by J. Clarke
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Post by Lynn McGuire
This is the second author that I have read who is predicting that the
USA will soon devolve into a Christian Theocracy. As
Christian, I hope not, the church does not handle power well. The first
author is Robert Heinlein. I am sure that there have been
Did Heinlein explicitly say it was a Christian theo? I mean that's
the natural assumption, but iirc about all we had was the name
Neimiah Scudder and he was never actually in a published story.
Well, he was called "The Prophet Incarnate"
IIRC, and there were other hints in other
stories, such as the "No Sparrow Shall Fall" air
traffic control system.
Well, with a Biblical name like that, you naturally expect some flavor
of Christian, but

a) It's an Old Testament name, could be a Jewish theocracy..
b) He probably didn't name himself anyway
c) Could be some brand new thing like Islam or Mormanism claiming the
same roots. (Especially with the Prophet Incarnate thing)
--
------
columbiaclosings.com
What's not in Columbia anymore..
Lawrence Watt-Evans
2017-02-01 09:16:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Post by J. Clarke
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Post by Lynn McGuire
This is the second author that I have read who is predicting that the
USA will soon devolve into a Christian Theocracy. As
Christian, I hope not, the church does not handle power well. The first
author is Robert Heinlein. I am sure that there have been
Did Heinlein explicitly say it was a Christian theo? I mean that's
the natural assumption, but iirc about all we had was the name
Neimiah Scudder and he was never actually in a published story.
Well, he was called "The Prophet Incarnate"
IIRC, and there were other hints in other
stories, such as the "No Sparrow Shall Fall" air
traffic control system.
Well, with a Biblical name like that, you naturally expect some flavor
of Christian, but
a) It's an Old Testament name, could be a Jewish theocracy..
No, in "If This Goes On..." Jews are a despised and oppressed
minority.
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
b) He probably didn't name himself anyway
c) Could be some brand new thing like Islam or Mormanism claiming the
same roots. (Especially with the Prophet Incarnate thing)
--
My webpage is at http://www.watt-evans.com
Quadibloc
2017-02-01 07:08:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Did Heinlein explicitly say it was a Christian theo? I mean that's
the natural assumption, but iirc about all we had was the name
Neimiah Scudder and he was never actually in a published story.
I'm not sure about "explicitly".

I would think that _not_ saying that the First Prophet, Nehemiah Scudder,
converted America to a religion other than Christianity, would be enough. He was
an unremarkable preacher... who gradually accumulated a following, and then with
the false miracle of the Incarnation enlarged that following.

As well, in addition to the name Nehemiah, others in the story have names like
Magdalene and Zebadiah.

So I think it would be clear that the church in the story was... a modified
Christianity, with the elevation of the line of Prophets as an... addendum. A
heretical sect or cult, basically.

John Savard
Quadibloc
2017-02-01 07:28:54 UTC
Permalink
Found an interesting article about "If This Goes On-"...

http://www.heinleinsociety.org/rah/works/novels/ifthisogoeson.html

John Savard
Richard Hershberger
2017-02-01 16:26:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by Quadibloc
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Did Heinlein explicitly say it was a Christian theo? I mean that's
the natural assumption, but iirc about all we had was the name
Neimiah Scudder and he was never actually in a published story.
I'm not sure about "explicitly".
I would think that _not_ saying that the First Prophet, Nehemiah Scudder,
converted America to a religion other than Christianity, would be enough. He was
an unremarkable preacher... who gradually accumulated a following, and then with
the false miracle of the Incarnation enlarged that following.
As well, in addition to the name Nehemiah, others in the story have names like
Magdalene and Zebadiah.
So I think it would be clear that the church in the story was... a modified
Christianity, with the elevation of the line of Prophets as an... addendum. A
heretical sect or cult, basically.
John Savard
The Old Testament given name is a dead giveaway. The pool of given names in Western Christendom did not, with a few notable exceptions, include Old Testament names before the Reformation. After the Reformation they still tended to be disproportionately favored by Puritans. This carried over to America. Through the 19th century these names often were characteristic of the more dedicated descendants of the Puritans. A few have entered the standard name pool. We wouldn't think anything of the name "Zach," and would take "Zachery" to be the "official" form, though "Zachariah" would be odd. Most have dropped out nearly entirely.

I doubt that Heinlein was a student of onomastics, but my guess is that he had an intuitive sense of the connotation of a name such as "Nehemiah."

Richard R. Hershberger
Robert Carnegie
2017-02-01 21:54:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Quadibloc
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Did Heinlein explicitly say it was a Christian theo? I mean that's
the natural assumption, but iirc about all we had was the name
Neimiah Scudder and he was never actually in a published story.
I'm not sure about "explicitly".
I would think that _not_ saying that the First Prophet, Nehemiah Scudder,
converted America to a religion other than Christianity, would be enough. He was
an unremarkable preacher... who gradually accumulated a following, and then with
the false miracle of the Incarnation enlarged that following.
As well, in addition to the name Nehemiah, others in the story have names like
Magdalene and Zebadiah.
So I think it would be clear that the church in the story was... a modified
Christianity, with the elevation of the line of Prophets as an... addendum. A
heretical sect or cult, basically.
"Christianity" turns out to be a very flexible
category, if you look around. From cross-dressers
to snake-fanciers to free-lovers to The Crusades.
From ranters in the street to people who aren't
allowed out.

Am I imagining the parts of _Stranger in a Strange
Land_ set in a standard movie-type Christian heaven
with off-duty angels wondering why their respected
colleague Michael hasn't been in the club house
lately? Maybe I've mixed it up with _Carousel_
or something. And what religion is that in the end,
and where does it go? I mean, gurl rng gur thl va
gur raq - evat n oryy!
Dorothy J Heydt
2017-02-01 22:53:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Quadibloc
Post by Quadibloc
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Did Heinlein explicitly say it was a Christian theo? I mean that's
the natural assumption, but iirc about all we had was the name
Neimiah Scudder and he was never actually in a published story.
I'm not sure about "explicitly".
I would think that _not_ saying that the First Prophet, Nehemiah Scudder,
converted America to a religion other than Christianity, would be
enough. He was
Post by Quadibloc
an unremarkable preacher... who gradually accumulated a following, and
then with
Post by Quadibloc
the false miracle of the Incarnation enlarged that following.
As well, in addition to the name Nehemiah, others in the story have
names like
Post by Quadibloc
Magdalene and Zebadiah.
So I think it would be clear that the church in the story was... a modified
Christianity, with the elevation of the line of Prophets as an... addendum. A
heretical sect or cult, basically.
"Christianity" turns out to be a very flexible
category, if you look around. From cross-dressers
to snake-fanciers to free-lovers to The Crusades.
From ranters in the street to people who aren't
allowed out.
Am I imagining the parts of _Stranger in a Strange
Land_ set in a standard movie-type Christian heaven
with off-duty angels wondering why their respected
colleague Michael hasn't been in the club house
lately? Maybe I've mixed it up with _Carousel_
or something. And what religion is that in the end,
and where does it go? I mean, gurl rng gur thl va
gur raq - evat n oryy!
It's been a long time since I read _Stranger_; I didn't
particularly like it. But it did end with Michael in heaven,
getting back to his archangelic work.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Robert Carnegie
2017-01-31 22:29:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lynn McGuire
I am reading a SF book right now about a Von Neumann probe that covers the next 150 years. In the book by 2050, the Earth has
aligned into six countries: The North American Christian Union named F.A.I.T.H., The United States of Europe, Australia, The
Brazilian Union, the African Union, and China.
https://www.amazon.com/We-Are-Legion-Bob-Bobiverse/dp/1680680323/
This is the second author that I have read who is predicting that the USA will soon devolve into a Christian Theocracy. As
Christian, I hope not, the church does not handle power well. The first author is Robert Heinlein. I am sure that there have been
others over the years that I am not remembering. Got any books or author names ?
To read or to avoid?

I haven't actually read _The Handmaid's Tale_.
It sounds depressing.

How theocratic is yours? In the real world
the U.S. President is required to be a Christian,
but not necessarily a preacher. And one time
there was a Catholic President, but he was shot.
Two for two if you count President Bartlet.
Dorothy J Heydt
2017-02-01 00:19:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robert Carnegie
How theocratic is yours? In the real world
the U.S. President is required to be a Christian,
but not necessarily a preacher.
Well, it's not a matter of law, only custom. So far. Note also
that in Kennedy's day there were many people who considered
Catholics not to be Christians (and there are still some like
that). I wouldn't call Trump a Christian, either. In fact I
feel like coining the acronym CINO. Christian in name only.

"Love your enemies; pray for those who strike you."

"Who is my neighbor?" [Story of the Good Samaritan, with the
punchline] "Everybody."

And one time
Post by Robert Carnegie
there was a Catholic President, but he was shot.
Not for being Catholic, unless you have something in the way of
evidence.
Post by Robert Carnegie
Two for two if you count President Bartlet.
/google

Oh, The West Wing. I never watched it. Google is my friend.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Dorothy J Heydt
2017-01-31 23:58:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lynn McGuire
I am reading a SF book right now about a Von Neumann probe that covers
the next 150 years. In the book by 2050, the Earth has
aligned into six countries: The North American Christian Union named
F.A.I.T.H., The United States of Europe, Australia, The
Brazilian Union, the African Union, and China.
https://www.amazon.com/We-Are-Legion-Bob-Bobiverse/dp/1680680323/
This is the second author that I have read who is predicting that the
USA will soon devolve into a Christian Theocracy. As
Christian, I hope not, the church does not handle power well. The first
author is Robert Heinlein. I am sure that there have been
others over the years that I am not remembering. Got any books or author names ?
Well, there was Dante, who was *living* in a place/time where the
Pope was not the ruler of the world, but a very powerful secular
as well as religious leader, and if you got a bad one it got
really bad. The things Dante says about Pope Boniface will curl
your hair.

Or as my husband tends to say, the problem with a theocracy is
that everybody wants to be Theo.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Lynn McGuire
2017-02-01 01:14:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Lynn McGuire
I am reading a SF book right now about a Von Neumann probe that covers
the next 150 years. In the book by 2050, the Earth has
aligned into six countries: The North American Christian Union named
F.A.I.T.H., The United States of Europe, Australia, The
Brazilian Union, the African Union, and China.
https://www.amazon.com/We-Are-Legion-Bob-Bobiverse/dp/1680680323/
This is the second author that I have read who is predicting that the
USA will soon devolve into a Christian Theocracy. As
Christian, I hope not, the church does not handle power well. The first
author is Robert Heinlein. I am sure that there have been
others over the years that I am not remembering. Got any books or author names ?
Well, there was Dante, who was *living* in a place/time where the
Pope was not the ruler of the world, but a very powerful secular
as well as religious leader, and if you got a bad one it got
really bad. The things Dante says about Pope Boniface will curl
your hair.
Or as my husband tends to say, the problem with a theocracy is
that everybody wants to be Theo.
True.

Lynn
Don Kuenz
2017-02-01 00:07:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lynn McGuire
I am reading a SF book right now about a Von Neumann probe that covers the
next 150 years. In the book by 2050, the Earth has
aligned into six countries: The North American Christian Union named F.A.I.T.H.,
The United States of Europe, Australia, The
Brazilian Union, the African Union, and China.
https://www.amazon.com/We-Are-Legion-Bob-Bobiverse/dp/1680680323/
This is the second author that I have read who is predicting that the USA
will soon devolve into a Christian Theocracy. As
Christian, I hope not, the church does not handle power well. The first
author is Robert Heinlein. I am sure that there have been
others over the years that I am not remembering. Got any books or author names ?
_The City on the Edge of Forever_ (Ellison) has a character named Sister
Edith Keeler. The Keeler character is reminiscent of Dorothy Day, an
American social gospel matriarch. The conflict in _City_ arises from the
fear that a pacifistic "soft" theocracy in the style of Keeler will keep
America out of WWII.

Thank you,

--
Don Kuenz KB7RPU

"Political society exists for the sake of noble actions." - Aristotle
Dorothy J Heydt
2017-02-01 00:22:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by Lynn McGuire
I am reading a SF book right now about a Von Neumann probe that covers the
next 150 years. In the book by 2050, the Earth has
aligned into six countries: The North American Christian Union named
F.A.I.T.H.,
Post by Lynn McGuire
The United States of Europe, Australia, The
Brazilian Union, the African Union, and China.
https://www.amazon.com/We-Are-Legion-Bob-Bobiverse/dp/1680680323/
This is the second author that I have read who is predicting that the USA
will soon devolve into a Christian Theocracy. As
Christian, I hope not, the church does not handle power well. The first
author is Robert Heinlein. I am sure that there have been
others over the years that I am not remembering. Got any books or
author names ?
_The City on the Edge of Forever_ (Ellison) has a character named Sister
Edith Keeler. The Keeler character is reminiscent of Dorothy Day, an
American social gospel matriarch.
Your terminology is confusing, since it hints at a right-wing
Bible-thumping Protestant. Dorothy Day was a Catholic.

The conflict in _City_ arises from the
Post by Lynn McGuire
fear that a pacifistic "soft" theocracy in the style of Keeler will keep
America out of WWII.
Not a theocracy! Plain pacificism, without religous overtones.
She's running a soup kitchen not to preach the Gospel, but to
preach pacifism.

And Kirk says "But she was right, peace was the answer." And
Spoick says something on the order of "Not in this place and
time."
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Kevrob
2017-02-01 00:55:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by Lynn McGuire
I am reading a SF book right now about a Von Neumann probe that covers the
next 150 years. In the book by 2050, the Earth has
aligned into six countries: The North American Christian Union named
F.A.I.T.H.,
Post by Lynn McGuire
The United States of Europe, Australia, The
Brazilian Union, the African Union, and China.
https://www.amazon.com/We-Are-Legion-Bob-Bobiverse/dp/1680680323/
This is the second author that I have read who is predicting that the USA
will soon devolve into a Christian Theocracy. As
Christian, I hope not, the church does not handle power well. The first
author is Robert Heinlein. I am sure that there have been
others over the years that I am not remembering. Got any books or
author names ?
_The City on the Edge of Forever_ (Ellison) has a character named Sister
Edith Keeler. The Keeler character is reminiscent of Dorothy Day, an
American social gospel matriarch.
Your terminology is confusing, since it hints at a right-wing
Bible-thumping Protestant. Dorothy Day was a Catholic.
The conflict in _City_ arises from the
Post by Lynn McGuire
fear that a pacifistic "soft" theocracy in the style of Keeler will keep
America out of WWII.
Not a theocracy! Plain pacificism, without religous overtones.
She's running a soup kitchen not to preach the Gospel, but to
preach pacifism.
And Kirk says "But she was right, peace was the answer." And
Spoick says something on the order of "Not in this place and
time."
Day was not only a pacifist, but a Christian Anarchist:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_anarchism#Catholic_Worker_Movement

Kevin R
Dorothy J Heydt
2017-02-01 01:29:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kevrob
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by Lynn McGuire
I am reading a SF book right now about a Von Neumann probe that covers the
next 150 years. In the book by 2050, the Earth has
aligned into six countries: The North American Christian Union named
F.A.I.T.H.,
Post by Lynn McGuire
The United States of Europe, Australia, The
Brazilian Union, the African Union, and China.
https://www.amazon.com/We-Are-Legion-Bob-Bobiverse/dp/1680680323/
This is the second author that I have read who is predicting that the USA
will soon devolve into a Christian Theocracy. As
Christian, I hope not, the church does not handle power well. The first
author is Robert Heinlein. I am sure that there have been
others over the years that I am not remembering. Got any books or
author names ?
_The City on the Edge of Forever_ (Ellison) has a character named Sister
Edith Keeler. The Keeler character is reminiscent of Dorothy Day, an
American social gospel matriarch.
Your terminology is confusing, since it hints at a right-wing
Bible-thumping Protestant. Dorothy Day was a Catholic.
The conflict in _City_ arises from the
Post by Lynn McGuire
fear that a pacifistic "soft" theocracy in the style of Keeler will keep
America out of WWII.
Not a theocracy! Plain pacificism, without religous overtones.
She's running a soup kitchen not to preach the Gospel, but to
preach pacifism.
And Kirk says "But she was right, peace was the answer." And
Spoick says something on the order of "Not in this place and
time."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_anarchism#Catholic_Worker_Movement
Day, yes. Keeler, not particularly. (I could say that we need
more pronouns, like Loglan, but Loglan was way *too* precise and
didn't accomplish much.)
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Quadibloc
2017-02-01 01:37:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Don Kuenz
The conflict in _City_ arises from the
Post by Don Kuenz
fear that a pacifistic "soft" theocracy in the style of Keeler will keep
America out of WWII.
Not a theocracy! Plain pacificism, without religous overtones.
She's running a soup kitchen not to preach the Gospel, but to
preach pacifism.
And Kirk says "But she was right, peace was the answer." And
Spoick says something on the order of "Not in this place and
time."
You are correct that Edith Keeler's soup kitchen, very unusually for things of
that sort, was secular. She "preached" about how scientific progress would
improve the world in a short time.

Spock did say she was "right, but at the wrong time", but that didn't make sense
to me. That would imply that the time that Kirk and Spock came from was the
_right_ time, but somehow pacifism wasn't working on the Klingons and the
Romulans any more than it would work on Nazis and Communists.

John Savard
Dorothy J Heydt
2017-02-01 02:14:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Quadibloc
Post by Don Kuenz
The conflict in _City_ arises from the
Post by Don Kuenz
fear that a pacifistic "soft" theocracy in the style of Keeler will keep
America out of WWII.
Not a theocracy! Plain pacificism, without religous overtones.
She's running a soup kitchen not to preach the Gospel, but to
preach pacifism.
And Kirk says "But she was right, peace was the answer." And
Spoick says something on the order of "Not in this place and
time."
You are correct that Edith Keeler's soup kitchen, very unusually for things of
that sort, was secular. She "preached" about how scientific progress would
improve the world in a short time.
Spock did say she was "right, but at the wrong time", but that didn't make sense
to me. That would imply that the time that Kirk and Spock came from was the
_right_ time, but somehow pacifism wasn't working on the Klingons and the
Romulans any more than it would work on Nazis and Communists.
No, but it was working in the Federation. Roddenberry was a
lifelong self-described "peacenik". I was living in Berkeley
when I knew him and I bought him a peace-symbol pendant on
Telegraph Avenue; he was very happy with it.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
J. Clarke
2017-02-01 04:39:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Quadibloc
Post by Don Kuenz
The conflict in _City_ arises from the
Post by Don Kuenz
fear that a pacifistic "soft" theocracy in the style of Keeler will keep
America out of WWII.
Not a theocracy! Plain pacificism, without religous overtones.
She's running a soup kitchen not to preach the Gospel, but to
preach pacifism.
And Kirk says "But she was right, peace was the answer." And
Spoick says something on the order of "Not in this place and
time."
You are correct that Edith Keeler's soup kitchen, very unusually for things of
that sort, was secular. She "preached" about how scientific progress would
improve the world in a short time.
Spock did say she was "right, but at the wrong time", but that didn't make sense
to me. That would imply that the time that Kirk and Spock came from was the
_right_ time, but somehow pacifism wasn't working on the Klingons and the
Romulans any more than it would work on Nazis and Communists.
No, but it was working in the Federation. Roddenberry was a
lifelong self-described "peacenik".
For certain values of "peacenik". While
Roddenberry was flying 89 combat missions and
collecting the Air Medal and the Distinguised
Flying Cross, ffa friend of mine was sitting the
war out in a conscientous objector camp.
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
I was living in Berkeley
when I knew him and I bought him a peace-symbol pendant on
Telegraph Avenue; he was very happy with it.
Don Kuenz
2017-02-01 03:08:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Quadibloc
Post by Don Kuenz
The conflict in _City_ arises from the
Post by Don Kuenz
fear that a pacifistic "soft" theocracy in the style of Keeler will keep
America out of WWII.
Not a theocracy! Plain pacificism, without religous overtones.
She's running a soup kitchen not to preach the Gospel, but to
preach pacifism.
And Kirk says "But she was right, peace was the answer." And
Spoick says something on the order of "Not in this place and
time."
You are correct that Edith Keeler's soup kitchen, very unusually for things of
that sort, was secular. She "preached" about how scientific progress would
improve the world in a short time.
Spock did say she was "right, but at the wrong time", but that didn't make sense
to me. That would imply that the time that Kirk and Spock came from was the
_right_ time, but somehow pacifism wasn't working on the Klingons and the
Romulans any more than it would work on Nazis and Communists.
Careful there. Beware the Great Bird's okey-doke. In his own words [1]
Ellison says, "Sister Edith Keeler, a character I created and whom I
based on the famous Aimee Semple McPherson, an historically-prominent
evangelist of the 1920s and 1930s."

Note.

_The City on the Edge of Forever_ (Ellison)

Thank you,

--
Don Kuenz KB7RPU

"I will talk of things heavenly, or things earthly; things moral, or
things evangelical; things sacred, or things profane; things past, or
things to come; things foreign, or things at home; things more
essential, or things circumstantial. - John Ray.
Dorothy J Heydt
2017-02-01 03:28:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Quadibloc
Post by Quadibloc
Post by Don Kuenz
The conflict in _City_ arises from the
Post by Don Kuenz
fear that a pacifistic "soft" theocracy in the style of Keeler will keep
America out of WWII.
Not a theocracy! Plain pacificism, without religous overtones.
She's running a soup kitchen not to preach the Gospel, but to
preach pacifism.
And Kirk says "But she was right, peace was the answer." And
Spoick says something on the order of "Not in this place and
time."
You are correct that Edith Keeler's soup kitchen, very unusually for things of
that sort, was secular. She "preached" about how scientific progress would
improve the world in a short time.
Spock did say she was "right, but at the wrong time", but that didn't
make sense
Post by Quadibloc
to me. That would imply that the time that Kirk and Spock came from was the
_right_ time, but somehow pacifism wasn't working on the Klingons and the
Romulans any more than it would work on Nazis and Communists.
Careful there. Beware the Great Bird's okey-doke. In his own words [1]
Ellison says, "Sister Edith Keeler, a character I created and whom I
based on the famous Aimee Semple McPherson, an historically-prominent
evangelist of the 1920s and 1930s."
Note.
_The City on the Edge of Forever_ (Ellison)
Except that by the time Roddenberry had rewritten it, she wasn't
preaching the Gospel any longer, and the revised script was
acceotabke to the network, and Harlan had a fit. I was at
Westercon XXI, where he got up and complained bitterly about how
Roddenberry had *ruined* his story.

/shrug
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Joseph Nebus
2017-02-01 03:55:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Except that by the time Roddenberry had rewritten it, she wasn't
preaching the Gospel any longer, and the revised script was
acceotabke to the network, and Harlan had a fit. I was at
Westercon XXI, where he got up and complained bitterly about how
Roddenberry had *ruined* his story.
To be fair to Roddenberry, Ellison will give one the same
complaints about any production, including _Avatar_ and the episode
where 99 marries Maxwell Smart.
--
Joseph Nebus
Math: Reading the Comics: Numerals Edition http://wp.me/p1RYhY-191
Humor: The Boot: And How I Got It http://wp.me/p37lb5-1uN
--------------------------------------------------------+---------------------
Dorothy J Heydt
2017-02-01 05:06:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Joseph Nebus
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Except that by the time Roddenberry had rewritten it, she wasn't
preaching the Gospel any longer, and the revised script was
acceotabke to the network, and Harlan had a fit. I was at
Westercon XXI, where he got up and complained bitterly about how
Roddenberry had *ruined* his story.
To be fair to Roddenberry, Ellison will give one the same
complaints about any production, including _Avatar_ and the episode
where 99 marries Maxwell Smart.
Harlan really shouldn't have gone into television, where
everything is a humongous team effort and the people who get the
final say are wearing suits in New York and haven't a grain of
creativity in them; and Harlan is a rugged individualist if ever
there was one, and wants to do HIS story HIS way, and in
television that isn't going to happen.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Carl Fink
2017-02-01 14:02:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Harlan really shouldn't have gone into television, where
everything is a humongous team effort and the people who get the
final say are wearing suits in New York and haven't a grain of
creativity in them; and Harlan is a rugged individualist if ever
there was one, and wants to do HIS story HIS way, and in
television that isn't going to happen.
Ellison thrives on conflict and lives to complain hilariously about things.
I think he went into TV precisely so he could turn his experiences into a
standup routine about how horrible it is. Consciously or not.
--
Carl Fink ***@nitpicking.com

Read my blog at blog.nitpicking.com. Reviews! Observations!
Stupid mistakes you can correct!
Don Kuenz
2017-02-01 05:58:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Joseph Nebus
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Except that by the time Roddenberry had rewritten it, she wasn't
preaching the Gospel any longer, and the revised script was
acceotabke to the network, and Harlan had a fit. I was at
Westercon XXI, where he got up and complained bitterly about how
Roddenberry had *ruined* his story.
To be fair to Roddenberry, Ellison will give one the same
complaints about any production, including _Avatar_ and the episode
where 99 marries Maxwell Smart.
This misunderstanding is my fault. Whenever _City_ gets mentioned most
people think of the Roddenberry TOS episode. They seldom think about
Ellison's original treatment.

IMHO _City_ epitomizes Star Trek. It seems that Ellison's original
treatment spoke too much brutal truth to power. It plain talked more
dramatically than Fighting-Quaker Butler.

Thank you,

--
Don Kuenz KB7RPU

"He was wont to speak plain and to the purpose." - Shakespeare.
Dorothy J Heydt
2017-02-01 11:50:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Don Kuenz
Post by Joseph Nebus
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Except that by the time Roddenberry had rewritten it, she wasn't
preaching the Gospel any longer, and the revised script was
acceotabke to the network, and Harlan had a fit. I was at
Westercon XXI, where he got up and complained bitterly about how
Roddenberry had *ruined* his story.
To be fair to Roddenberry, Ellison will give one the same
complaints about any production, including _Avatar_ and the episode
where 99 marries Maxwell Smart.
This misunderstanding is my fault. Whenever _City_ gets mentioned most
people think of the Roddenberry TOS episode. They seldom think about
Ellison's original treatment.
I've *read* Ellison's original treatment. There were two things
wrong with it: (a) it completely misunderstood the three core
characters, "the triangle," whose interactions were the basis of
every good ST plot; and (b) there were things like drug use that
would not ever have flown on 1960s television.

As I said upthread, television was the wrong medium for Harlan.
Post by Don Kuenz
IMHO _City_ epitomizes Star Trek. It seems that Ellison's original
treatment spoke too much brutal truth to power.
That's another way of saying it would never have flown on 1960s
television, which as I also said upthread, was run by a bunch of
guys in suits in New York, who wanted to play to the lowest
common denominator because they would buy more of the
advertisers' products.

Way back in the high and palmy days of USENET, (2003, actually),
John Eldredge told the tale of a lecture delivered by the manager
of a local network affiliate.
Post by Don Kuenz
... I asked him, in a
question-and-answer session at a public lecture, what his network
considered an average viewer to be. His answer was, "We consider
the average viewer to be a blue-collar worker in his 30's or 40's,
with an eighth-grade education, an IQ of about 80, and no desire to
watch anything that would make him need to think."
And he was probably right. The average American viewer was not
ready for the work of Harlan Ellison, and probably still isn't.
Post by Don Kuenz
It plain talked more
dramatically than Fighting-Quaker Butler.
Who?
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Don Kuenz
2017-02-01 15:30:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Don Kuenz
Post by Joseph Nebus
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Except that by the time Roddenberry had rewritten it, she wasn't
preaching the Gospel any longer, and the revised script was
acceotabke to the network, and Harlan had a fit. I was at
Westercon XXI, where he got up and complained bitterly about how
Roddenberry had *ruined* his story.
To be fair to Roddenberry, Ellison will give one the same
complaints about any production, including _Avatar_ and the episode
where 99 marries Maxwell Smart.
This misunderstanding is my fault. Whenever _City_ gets mentioned most
people think of the Roddenberry TOS episode. They seldom think about
Ellison's original treatment.
I've *read* Ellison's original treatment. There were two things
wrong with it: (a) it completely misunderstood the three core
characters, "the triangle," whose interactions were the basis of
every good ST plot; and (b) there were things like drug use that
would not ever have flown on 1960s television.
As I said upthread, television was the wrong medium for Harlan.
Post by Don Kuenz
IMHO _City_ epitomizes Star Trek. It seems that Ellison's original
treatment spoke too much brutal truth to power.
That's another way of saying it would never have flown on 1960s
television, which as I also said upthread, was run by a bunch of
guys in suits in New York, who wanted to play to the lowest
common denominator because they would buy more of the
advertisers' products.
Way back in the high and palmy days of USENET, (2003, actually),
John Eldredge told the tale of a lecture delivered by the manager
of a local network affiliate.
Post by Don Kuenz
... I asked him, in a
question-and-answer session at a public lecture, what his network
considered an average viewer to be. His answer was, "We consider
the average viewer to be a blue-collar worker in his 30's or 40's,
with an eighth-grade education, an IQ of about 80, and no desire to
watch anything that would make him need to think."
And he was probably right. The average American viewer was not
ready for the work of Harlan Ellison, and probably still isn't.
Post by Don Kuenz
It plain talked more
dramatically than Fighting-Quaker Butler.
Who?
You know best about TOS, having wrote the bible on it. You also know
your Ellison. Two hundred proof is far too strong for most.

In the recently released graphic novel "Star Trek, Harlan Ellison's The
City on the Edge of Forever, The Original Teleplay" Ellison at long last
gets to tell his story *his* way. When you bring up "the triangle" it
makes me curious....

McCoy appears in a sum total of two panels in the graphic novel. He
attends to the medical needs of a red shirt injured by Beckwith. He says
nothing in either panel. This may very well reveal the brutal truth as
to Ellison's opinion of what the McCoy character is good for.

Although Roddenberry harps about drugs, Ellison's ire seems focused on
the original "Trooper" character that Roddenberry left on the cutting
room floor. In the original treatment the legless "Trooper" sits atop a
small platform on wheels and uses his hands on pavement for movement.
He's a charity case who sells apples and pencils in the street.
Trooper's a veteran who was wounded in WWI. He probably camped out with
the Bonus Army. [1]

The "Fighting Quaker," Smedley Butler [2] did indeed lend his support to
the Bonus Army. Butler also wrote a book titled "War is a Racket."

The big bugaboo with the Bonus Army is that it makes Uncle Sam look bad.
It makes Uncle Sam look like a guy who sends people off to war, promises
them a bonus, and then welshes on his promise. It's only natural for
suits with a stake in the status quo to just leave all of that cognitive
dissonance on the cutting room floor.

Note.

1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bonus_army
2. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smedley_Butler

Thank you,

--
Don Kuenz KB7RPU

"And truth severe, by fairy fiction drest." - Thomas Gray.
Mike Van Pelt
2017-02-02 00:09:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Don Kuenz
Although Roddenberry harps about drugs, Ellison's ire seems focused on
the original "Trooper" character that Roddenberry left on the cutting
room floor. In the original treatment the legless "Trooper" sits atop a
small platform on wheels and uses his hands on pavement for movement.
He's a charity case who sells apples and pencils in the street.
Trooper's a veteran who was wounded in WWI. He probably camped out with
the Bonus Army. [1]
That's my main memory from reading Ellison's version.

I think he absolutely nailed Kirk's character in that exchange.
Trooper said earlier he'd lost his legs at Verdun. Trooper
asks Kirk why he's trusting him as much as he is, and Kirk says
"I think I can trust a man who fought at Verdun."

Later, after Trooper has gone off on whatever mission Kirk had
him engage in, Kirk asks Spock "What was Verdun?"
--
"The urge to save humanity is almost | Mike Van Pelt
always a false front for the urge to rule." | mvp at calweb.com
-- H.L. Mencken | KE6BVH
Kevrob
2017-02-02 02:27:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mike Van Pelt
Post by Don Kuenz
Although Roddenberry harps about drugs, Ellison's ire seems focused on
the original "Trooper" character that Roddenberry left on the cutting
room floor. In the original treatment the legless "Trooper" sits atop a
small platform on wheels and uses his hands on pavement for movement.
He's a charity case who sells apples and pencils in the street.
Trooper's a veteran who was wounded in WWI. He probably camped out with
the Bonus Army. [1]
That's my main memory from reading Ellison's version.
I think he absolutely nailed Kirk's character in that exchange.
Trooper said earlier he'd lost his legs at Verdun. Trooper
asks Kirk why he's trusting him as much as he is, and Kirk says
"I think I can trust a man who fought at Verdun."
Later, after Trooper has gone off on whatever mission Kirk had
him engage in, Kirk asks Spock "What was Verdun?"
How could a good Iowa boy, with a military education, not
know Verdun? He should at least know his Carl Sandurg:

https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems-and-poets/poems/detail/45034

Kevin R
Dorothy J Heydt
2017-02-02 02:54:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kevrob
Post by Mike Van Pelt
Post by Don Kuenz
Although Roddenberry harps about drugs, Ellison's ire seems focused on
the original "Trooper" character that Roddenberry left on the cutting
room floor. In the original treatment the legless "Trooper" sits atop a
small platform on wheels and uses his hands on pavement for movement.
He's a charity case who sells apples and pencils in the street.
Trooper's a veteran who was wounded in WWI. He probably camped out with
the Bonus Army. [1]
That's my main memory from reading Ellison's version.
I think he absolutely nailed Kirk's character in that exchange.
Trooper said earlier he'd lost his legs at Verdun. Trooper
asks Kirk why he's trusting him as much as he is, and Kirk says
"I think I can trust a man who fought at Verdun."
Later, after Trooper has gone off on whatever mission Kirk had
him engage in, Kirk asks Spock "What was Verdun?"
How could a good Iowa boy, with a military education, not
https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems-and-poets/poems/detail/45034
At the time ST:TOS was going on, it was supposed to be mid-22nd
century. I can envision Kirk's military education *beginning*
with the Cold War and the risk of ICBMs.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Kevrob
2017-02-02 04:16:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Kevrob
Post by Mike Van Pelt
Post by Don Kuenz
Although Roddenberry harps about drugs, Ellison's ire seems focused on
the original "Trooper" character that Roddenberry left on the cutting
room floor. In the original treatment the legless "Trooper" sits atop a
small platform on wheels and uses his hands on pavement for movement.
He's a charity case who sells apples and pencils in the street.
Trooper's a veteran who was wounded in WWI. He probably camped out with
the Bonus Army. [1]
That's my main memory from reading Ellison's version.
I think he absolutely nailed Kirk's character in that exchange.
Trooper said earlier he'd lost his legs at Verdun. Trooper
asks Kirk why he's trusting him as much as he is, and Kirk says
"I think I can trust a man who fought at Verdun."
Later, after Trooper has gone off on whatever mission Kirk had
him engage in, Kirk asks Spock "What was Verdun?"
How could a good Iowa boy, with a military education, not
https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems-and-poets/poems/detail/45034
At the time ST:TOS was going on, it was supposed to be mid-22nd
century. I can envision Kirk's military education *beginning*
with the Cold War and the risk of ICBMs.
Somewhere along the way, JTK picked up a jones for classic
literature, printed on actual paper: Melville, Dickens, Milton
and Shakespeare. McCoy gave him those antique reading classes, too.

Kevin R
Robert Carnegie
2017-02-02 05:22:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kevrob
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Kevrob
Post by Mike Van Pelt
Post by Don Kuenz
Although Roddenberry harps about drugs, Ellison's ire seems focused on
the original "Trooper" character that Roddenberry left on the cutting
room floor. In the original treatment the legless "Trooper" sits atop a
small platform on wheels and uses his hands on pavement for movement.
He's a charity case who sells apples and pencils in the street.
Trooper's a veteran who was wounded in WWI. He probably camped out with
the Bonus Army. [1]
That's my main memory from reading Ellison's version.
I think he absolutely nailed Kirk's character in that exchange.
Trooper said earlier he'd lost his legs at Verdun. Trooper
asks Kirk why he's trusting him as much as he is, and Kirk says
"I think I can trust a man who fought at Verdun."
Later, after Trooper has gone off on whatever mission Kirk had
him engage in, Kirk asks Spock "What was Verdun?"
How could a good Iowa boy, with a military education, not
https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems-and-poets/poems/detail/45034
At the time ST:TOS was going on, it was supposed to be mid-22nd
century. I can envision Kirk's military education *beginning*
with the Cold War and the risk of ICBMs.
Somewhere along the way, JTK picked up a jones for classic
literature, printed on actual paper: Melville, Dickens, Milton
and Shakespeare. McCoy gave him those antique reading classes, too.
Jaqueline Susann, Harold Robbins, and probably
at least one author in the future from the point
of view of production, like they always did -
say _Fifty Shades of Grey_.

I think there was canonically an author from
Alpha Centauri that he liked, which I'm going to
imagine as a collective of small blue furry
creatures... I dunno what colour the fur was.
Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
2017-02-02 04:02:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by J. Clarke
In article
On Wednesday, February 1, 2017 at 7:09:52 PM UTC-5, Mike Van
Post by Mike Van Pelt
Post by Don Kuenz
Although Roddenberry harps about drugs, Ellison's ire seems
focused on the original "Trooper" character that Roddenberry
left on the cutting room floor. In the original treatment the
legless "Trooper" sits atop a small platform on wheels and
uses his hands on pavement for movement. He's a charity case
who sells apples and pencils in the street. Trooper's a
veteran who was wounded in WWI. He probably camped out with
the Bonus Army. [1]
That's my main memory from reading Ellison's version.
I think he absolutely nailed Kirk's character in that
exchange. Trooper said earlier he'd lost his legs at Verdun.
Trooper asks Kirk why he's trusting him as much as he is, and
Kirk says "I think I can trust a man who fought at Verdun."
Later, after Trooper has gone off on whatever mission Kirk had
him engage in, Kirk asks Spock "What was Verdun?"
How could a good Iowa boy, with a military education, not
https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems-and-poets/poems/detail/450
34
At the time ST:TOS was going on, it was supposed to be mid-22nd
century. I can envision Kirk's military education *beginning*
with the Cold War and the risk of ICBMs.
His official education, perhaps. But on his own, one might
reasonably expect him to be better educated on things that interest
him, like military history.

(And the entire crew seems to be remarkably versatile in their
training. It is not at all uncommong for someone on the bridge to
be incapacitated, or otherwise leave their station, and be replaces
by . . . whatever nameless extra happens to be standing nearby.)
--
Terry Austin

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.
Moriarty
2017-02-01 22:05:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Don Kuenz
Post by Joseph Nebus
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Except that by the time Roddenberry had rewritten it, she wasn't
preaching the Gospel any longer, and the revised script was
acceotabke to the network, and Harlan had a fit. I was at
Westercon XXI, where he got up and complained bitterly about how
Roddenberry had *ruined* his story.
To be fair to Roddenberry, Ellison will give one the same
complaints about any production, including _Avatar_ and the episode
where 99 marries Maxwell Smart.
This misunderstanding is my fault. Whenever _City_ gets mentioned most
people think of the Roddenberry TOS episode. They seldom think about
Ellison's original treatment.
I've *read* Ellison's original treatment. There were two things
wrong with it: (a) it completely misunderstood the three core
characters, "the triangle," whose interactions were the basis of
every good ST plot; and (b) there were things like drug use that
would not ever have flown on 1960s television.
As I said upthread, television was the wrong medium for Harlan.
Post by Don Kuenz
IMHO _City_ epitomizes Star Trek. It seems that Ellison's original
treatment spoke too much brutal truth to power.
That's another way of saying it would never have flown on 1960s
television, which as I also said upthread, was run by a bunch of
guys in suits in New York, who wanted to play to the lowest
common denominator because they would buy more of the
advertisers' products.
Way back in the high and palmy days of USENET, (2003, actually),
John Eldredge told the tale of a lecture delivered by the manager
of a local network affiliate.
Post by Don Kuenz
... I asked him, in a
question-and-answer session at a public lecture, what his network
considered an average viewer to be. His answer was, "We consider
the average viewer to be a blue-collar worker in his 30's or 40's,
with an eighth-grade education, an IQ of about 80, and no desire to
watch anything that would make him need to think."
And he was probably right. The average American viewer was not
ready for the work of Harlan Ellison, and probably still isn't.
I don't know about that. We're allegedly in a golden age of TV at the moment with many smart TV programs doing well critically and commercially.

Off the top of my head:

Breaking Bad / Better Call Saul
House of Cards
Stranger Things
The Night Manager
Rectify
Game of Thrones

-Moriarty
Dimensional Traveler
2017-02-01 23:03:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Moriarty
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Don Kuenz
Post by Joseph Nebus
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Except that by the time Roddenberry had rewritten it, she wasn't
preaching the Gospel any longer, and the revised script was
acceotabke to the network, and Harlan had a fit. I was at
Westercon XXI, where he got up and complained bitterly about how
Roddenberry had *ruined* his story.
To be fair to Roddenberry, Ellison will give one the same
complaints about any production, including _Avatar_ and the episode
where 99 marries Maxwell Smart.
This misunderstanding is my fault. Whenever _City_ gets mentioned most
people think of the Roddenberry TOS episode. They seldom think about
Ellison's original treatment.
I've *read* Ellison's original treatment. There were two things
wrong with it: (a) it completely misunderstood the three core
characters, "the triangle," whose interactions were the basis of
every good ST plot; and (b) there were things like drug use that
would not ever have flown on 1960s television.
As I said upthread, television was the wrong medium for Harlan.
Post by Don Kuenz
IMHO _City_ epitomizes Star Trek. It seems that Ellison's original
treatment spoke too much brutal truth to power.
That's another way of saying it would never have flown on 1960s
television, which as I also said upthread, was run by a bunch of
guys in suits in New York, who wanted to play to the lowest
common denominator because they would buy more of the
advertisers' products.
Way back in the high and palmy days of USENET, (2003, actually),
John Eldredge told the tale of a lecture delivered by the manager
of a local network affiliate.
Post by Don Kuenz
... I asked him, in a
question-and-answer session at a public lecture, what his network
considered an average viewer to be. His answer was, "We consider
the average viewer to be a blue-collar worker in his 30's or 40's,
with an eighth-grade education, an IQ of about 80, and no desire to
watch anything that would make him need to think."
And he was probably right. The average American viewer was not
ready for the work of Harlan Ellison, and probably still isn't.
I don't know about that. We're allegedly in a golden age of TV at the moment with many smart TV programs doing well critically and commercially.
Breaking Bad / Better Call Saul
House of Cards
Stranger Things
The Night Manager
Rectify
Game of Thrones
One notes that none of those are on "broadcast" TV. ;)
--
Running the rec.arts.TV Channels Watched Survey.
Winter 2016 survey began Dec 01 and will end Feb 28
Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
2017-02-01 22:26:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dimensional Traveler
Post by Moriarty
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Don Kuenz
Post by Joseph Nebus
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Except that by the time Roddenberry had rewritten it, she
wasn't preaching the Gospel any longer, and the revised
script was acceotabke to the network, and Harlan had a fit.
I was at Westercon XXI, where he got up and complained
bitterly about how Roddenberry had *ruined* his story.
To be fair to Roddenberry, Ellison will give one the same
complaints about any production, including _Avatar_ and the
episode where 99 marries Maxwell Smart.
This misunderstanding is my fault. Whenever _City_ gets
mentioned most people think of the Roddenberry TOS episode.
They seldom think about Ellison's original treatment.
I've *read* Ellison's original treatment. There were two
things wrong with it: (a) it completely misunderstood the
three core characters, "the triangle," whose interactions were
the basis of every good ST plot; and (b) there were things
like drug use that would not ever have flown on 1960s
television.
As I said upthread, television was the wrong medium for
Harlan.
Post by Don Kuenz
IMHO _City_ epitomizes Star Trek. It seems that Ellison's
original treatment spoke too much brutal truth to power.
That's another way of saying it would never have flown on
1960s television, which as I also said upthread, was run by a
bunch of guys in suits in New York, who wanted to play to the
lowest common denominator because they would buy more of the
advertisers' products.
Way back in the high and palmy days of USENET, (2003,
actually), John Eldredge told the tale of a lecture delivered
by the manager of a local network affiliate.
Post by Don Kuenz
... I asked him, in a
question-and-answer session at a public lecture, what his
network considered an average viewer to be. His answer was,
"We consider the average viewer to be a blue-collar worker in
his 30's or 40's, with an eighth-grade education, an IQ of
about 80, and no desire to watch anything that would make him
need to think."
And he was probably right. The average American viewer was
not ready for the work of Harlan Ellison, and probably still
isn't.
I don't know about that. We're allegedly in a golden age of TV
at the moment with many smart TV programs doing well critically
and commercially.
Breaking Bad / Better Call Saul
House of Cards
Stranger Things
The Night Manager
Rectify
Game of Thrones
One notes that none of those are on "broadcast" TV. ;)
Way too much broadcat TV is reality shows these days, and most of
the rest is still mindless pap, as it always has been. The core
audience of scripted broadcast television hasn't changed much in 60
years.
--
Terry Austin

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.
William December Starr
2017-02-01 03:24:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Quadibloc
Spock did say she was "right, but at the wrong time", but that
didn't make sense to me. That would imply that the time that Kirk
and Spock came from was the _right_ time,
No it wouldn't. Or at least not exclusively.

-- wds
Quadibloc
2017-02-01 07:28:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by William December Starr
Post by Quadibloc
Spock did say she was "right, but at the wrong time", but that
didn't make sense to me. That would imply that the time that Kirk
and Spock came from was the _right_ time,
No it wouldn't. Or at least not exclusively.
My point, that their time was just as *wrong* as Edith Keeler's time, isn't
affected by correcting that to _a_ right time.

John Savard
David Johnston
2017-02-01 18:32:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Quadibloc
Post by William December Starr
Post by Quadibloc
Spock did say she was "right, but at the wrong time", but that
didn't make sense to me. That would imply that the time that Kirk
and Spock came from was the _right_ time,
No it wouldn't. Or at least not exclusively.
My point, that their time was just as *wrong* as Edith Keeler's time, isn't
affected by correcting that to _a_ right time.
John Savard
Yeah it is. The message I got was, "Some times are the wrong times to
be a pacifist and put down your weapons." An Edith Keeler would be
valuable in the wake of World III when Earth was finally uniting. She's
dangerous when the Nazis or the Klingons are about to attack and have no
use for her message.
Robert Carnegie
2017-02-01 21:43:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Johnston
Post by Quadibloc
Post by William December Starr
Post by Quadibloc
Spock did say she was "right, but at the wrong time", but that
didn't make sense to me. That would imply that the time that Kirk
and Spock came from was the _right_ time,
No it wouldn't. Or at least not exclusively.
My point, that their time was just as *wrong* as Edith Keeler's time, isn't
affected by correcting that to _a_ right time.
John Savard
Yeah it is. The message I got was, "Some times are the wrong times to
be a pacifist and put down your weapons." An Edith Keeler would be
valuable in the wake of World III when Earth was finally uniting. She's
dangerous when the Nazis or the Klingons are about to attack and have no
use for her message.
Hmm. Are there real-life similar cases, he asked
to save himself the trouble of thinking. And if
it's a matter of bringing the U.S. into the
Second World War, that was pretty late and unpopular
in /this/ timeline.
J. Clarke
2017-02-01 04:35:04 UTC
Permalink
In article <***@crcomp.net>, ***@crcomp.net
says...
Post by Don Kuenz
Post by Lynn McGuire
I am reading a SF book right now about a Von Neumann probe that covers the
next 150 years. In the book by 2050, the Earth has
aligned into six countries: The North American Christian Union named F.A.I.T.H.,
The United States of Europe, Australia, The
Brazilian Union, the African Union, and China.
https://www.amazon.com/We-Are-Legion-Bob-Bobiverse/dp/1680680323/
This is the second author that I have read who is predicting that the USA
will soon devolve into a Christian Theocracy. As
Christian, I hope not, the church does not handle power well. The first
author is Robert Heinlein. I am sure that there have been
others over the years that I am not remembering. Got any books or author names ?
_The City on the Edge of Forever_ (Ellison) has a character named Sister
Edith Keeler. The Keeler character is reminiscent of Dorothy Day, an
American social gospel matriarch. The conflict in _City_ arises from the
fear that a pacifistic "soft" theocracy in the style of Keeler will keep
America out of WWII.
That one's kind of a hard sell--there wasn't
enough time for any hardcore theocracy to arise
before Pearl Harbor, and it would have had to be
might hard-core to keep the US out of the war
after that.
David Johnston
2017-02-01 01:27:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lynn McGuire
I am reading a SF book right now about a Von Neumann probe that covers
the next 150 years. In the book by 2050, the Earth has aligned into six
countries: The North American Christian Union named F.A.I.T.H.,
"And what does that mean?"
"It means someone really wanted to spell S.H.I.E.L.D."


The
Post by Lynn McGuire
United States of Europe, Australia, The Brazilian Union, the African
Union, and China.
https://www.amazon.com/We-Are-Legion-Bob-Bobiverse/dp/1680680323/
This is the second author that I have read who is predicting that the
USA will soon devolve into a Christian Theocracy. As Christian, I hope
not, the church does not handle power well. The first author is Robert
Heinlein. I am sure that there have been others over the years that I
am not remembering. Got any books or author names ?
Loosely defining "theocracy", the Handmaid's Tale comes to mind. Gather
Darkness. The Long Tomorrow. Sid Meier's Alpha Centauri (computer
game) has its theocratic faction come from a Christian States of
America, but I don't think they controlled all of the former United
States.
Kevrob
2017-02-01 01:42:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Johnston
Post by Lynn McGuire
I am reading a SF book right now about a Von Neumann probe that covers
the next 150 years. In the book by 2050, the Earth has aligned into six
countries: The North American Christian Union named F.A.I.T.H.,
"And what does that mean?"
"It means someone really wanted to spell S.H.I.E.L.D."
The constituent word they use in the movies aren't even the
ones dreamed up for the comics in the 1960s! Retcons, everywhere!

"Supreme Headquarters International Espionage Law-enforcement Division"
v. "Strategic Homeland Intervention, Enforcement and Logistics Division"

Sometimes writers really wanted to spell U.N.C.L.E. or T.H.U.N.D.E.R.

All were takeoffs on Fleming's SPECTRE -

Special Executive for Counter-intelligence, Terrorism, Revenge
and Extortion, itself inspired by the real-world SMERSH (Death to Spies!)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SMERSH

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SMERSH_(James_Bond)

I had a comparative politics professor, named Harry Cantor.
He was an expert on Central America, and I took his class
in the mid-1970s, before Nicaragua and El Salvador became
headlines.

He knew every acronym, initialism and colors-combination of every
Latin American political party and revolutionary movement. He used
to lump the rebels together as the Underground Secret Army For
the Overthrow of Everything. Slogan: "Up With Down! Down With Up!"

I thought USAFOE would have been perfect antagonists for Captain
America, Nick Fury, and the Agents of SHIELD!


Kevin R
Lynn McGuire
2017-02-01 22:04:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Johnston
Post by Lynn McGuire
I am reading a SF book right now about a Von Neumann probe that covers
the next 150 years. In the book by 2050, the Earth has aligned into six
countries: The North American Christian Union named F.A.I.T.H.,
"And what does that mean?"
"It means someone really wanted to spell S.H.I.E.L.D."
I had it wrong. The correct North American organization is F.A.I.T.H., the Free American Independent Theocratic Hegemony, via a
revolution in 2041.

Lynn
David Johnston
2017-02-02 00:19:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by David Johnston
Post by Lynn McGuire
I am reading a SF book right now about a Von Neumann probe that covers
the next 150 years. In the book by 2050, the Earth has aligned into six
countries: The North American Christian Union named F.A.I.T.H.,
"And what does that mean?"
"It means someone really wanted to spell S.H.I.E.L.D."
I had it wrong. The correct North American organization is F.A.I.T.H.,
the Free American Independent Theocratic Hegemony, via a revolution in
2041.
<snort> Ridiculous. Theocratic Hegemony? Might as well call
themselves the Evil League of Evil.
Lynn McGuire
2017-02-02 00:34:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by David Johnston
Post by Lynn McGuire
I am reading a SF book right now about a Von Neumann probe that covers
the next 150 years. In the book by 2050, the Earth has aligned into six
countries: The North American Christian Union named F.A.I.T.H.,
"And what does that mean?"
"It means someone really wanted to spell S.H.I.E.L.D."
I had it wrong. The correct North American organization is F.A.I.T.H.,
the Free American Independent Theocratic Hegemony, via a revolution in
2041.
<snort> Ridiculous. Theocratic Hegemony? Might as well call themselves the Evil League of Evil.
If you read my review of the book, did you like "FAITH launched Project HEAVEN, the Habitable Earths Abiogenic Vessel Exploration
Network" for the Von Neumann proble ?

Lynn
David Johnston
2017-02-02 00:42:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by David Johnston
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by David Johnston
Post by Lynn McGuire
I am reading a SF book right now about a Von Neumann probe that covers
the next 150 years. In the book by 2050, the Earth has aligned into six
countries: The North American Christian Union named F.A.I.T.H.,
"And what does that mean?"
"It means someone really wanted to spell S.H.I.E.L.D."
I had it wrong. The correct North American organization is F.A.I.T.H.,
the Free American Independent Theocratic Hegemony, via a revolution in
2041.
<snort> Ridiculous. Theocratic Hegemony? Might as well call
themselves the Evil League of Evil.
If you read my review of the book, did you like "FAITH launched Project
HEAVEN, the Habitable Earths Abiogenic Vessel Exploration Network" for
the Von Neumann proble ?
Lynn
Not as bad as F.A.I.T.H. by any means.
Dorothy J Heydt
2017-02-02 02:28:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Johnston
Post by David Johnston
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by David Johnston
Post by Lynn McGuire
I am reading a SF book right now about a Von Neumann probe that covers
the next 150 years. In the book by 2050, the Earth has aligned into six
countries: The North American Christian Union named F.A.I.T.H.,
"And what does that mean?"
"It means someone really wanted to spell S.H.I.E.L.D."
I had it wrong. The correct North American organization is F.A.I.T.H.,
the Free American Independent Theocratic Hegemony, via a revolution in
2041.
<snort> Ridiculous. Theocratic Hegemony? Might as well call
themselves the Evil League of Evil.
If you read my review of the book, did you like "FAITH launched Project
HEAVEN, the Habitable Earths Abiogenic Vessel Exploration
Network" for the Von Neumann proble ?
Some people go too far to invent an acronym.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Lynn McGuire
2017-02-02 03:08:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by David Johnston
Post by David Johnston
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by David Johnston
Post by Lynn McGuire
I am reading a SF book right now about a Von Neumann probe that covers
the next 150 years. In the book by 2050, the Earth has aligned into six
countries: The North American Christian Union named F.A.I.T.H.,
"And what does that mean?"
"It means someone really wanted to spell S.H.I.E.L.D."
I had it wrong. The correct North American organization is F.A.I.T.H.,
the Free American Independent Theocratic Hegemony, via a revolution in
2041.
<snort> Ridiculous. Theocratic Hegemony? Might as well call
themselves the Evil League of Evil.
If you read my review of the book, did you like "FAITH launched Project
HEAVEN, the Habitable Earths Abiogenic Vessel Exploration
Network" for the Von Neumann proble ?
Some people go too far to invent an acronym.
Lots of tongue in cheek in this book, regardless of the seriousness of the subject matter.

Lynn
Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
2017-02-02 03:58:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by David Johnston
Post by David Johnston
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by David Johnston
Post by Lynn McGuire
I am reading a SF book right now about a Von Neumann probe
that covers the next 150 years. In the book by 2050, the
Earth has aligned into six countries: The North American
Christian Union named F.A.I.T.H.,
"And what does that mean?"
"It means someone really wanted to spell S.H.I.E.L.D."
I had it wrong. The correct North American organization is
F.A.I.T.H., the Free American Independent Theocratic
Hegemony, via a revolution in 2041.
<snort> Ridiculous. Theocratic Hegemony? Might as well call
themselves the Evil League of Evil.
If you read my review of the book, did you like "FAITH launched
Project HEAVEN, the Habitable Earths Abiogenic Vessel
Exploration Network" for the Von Neumann proble ?
Some people go too far to invent an acronym.
Sometimes, that's the point.
--
Terry Austin

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.
a***@yahoo.com
2017-02-01 02:50:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lynn McGuire
I am reading a SF book right now about a Von Neumann probe that covers the next 150 years. In the book by 2050, the Earth has
aligned into six countries: The North American Christian Union named F.A.I.T.H., The United States of Europe, Australia, The
Brazilian Union, the African Union, and China.
https://www.amazon.com/We-Are-Legion-Bob-Bobiverse/dp/1680680323/
This is the second author that I have read who is predicting that the USA will soon devolve into a Christian Theocracy. As
Christian, I hope not, the church does not handle power well. The first author is Robert Heinlein. I am sure that there have been
others over the years that I am not remembering. Got any books or author names ?
Thanks,
Lynn
Passion Play by Sean Stewart has such a scenario, if not a "prediction".
a***@yahoo.com
2017-02-01 02:53:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lynn McGuire
I am reading a SF book right now about a Von Neumann probe that covers the next 150 years. In the book by 2050, the Earth has
aligned into six countries: The North American Christian Union named F.A.I.T.H., The United States of Europe, Australia, The
Brazilian Union, the African Union, and China.
https://www.amazon.com/We-Are-Legion-Bob-Bobiverse/dp/1680680323/
This is the second author that I have read who is predicting that the USA will soon devolve into a Christian Theocracy. As
Christian, I hope not, the church does not handle power well. The first author is Robert Heinlein. I am sure that there have been
others over the years that I am not remembering. Got any books or author names ?
Thanks,
Lynn
Maybe Hell is the Absence of God by Ted Chiang? Probably something by James Morrow as well...
William December Starr
2017-02-01 03:29:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by a***@yahoo.com
Maybe Hell is the Absence of God by Ted Chiang?
I'm not convinced that it counts as a theocracy
when there's an acual god(like entity) running it.

Deiocracy?

-- wds
Dorothy J Heydt
2017-02-01 05:08:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by William December Starr
Post by a***@yahoo.com
Maybe Hell is the Absence of God by Ted Chiang?
I'm not convinced that it counts as a theocracy
when there's an acual god(like entity) running it.
Deiocracy?
No, that's just substituting Latin _deus_ for Greek _theos_
meaning the same thing.

But what comes to my mind is a quotation from (I think) St.
Catherine of Siena: "The fire of Hell is the light of God as
seen by those who have rejected him."
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Kevrob
2017-02-01 11:28:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by William December Starr
Post by a***@yahoo.com
Maybe Hell is the Absence of God by Ted Chiang?
I'm not convinced that it counts as a theocracy
when there's an acual god(like entity) running it.
Deiocracy?
No, that's just substituting Latin _deus_ for Greek _theos_
meaning the same thing.
What we call theocracy ought to be more properly known as hagiarchy
or hagiocracy: rule by the holy, or perhaps presbytarchy or
presbytocracy: rule by priests (elders). Thearchy or theocracy
could then be reserved for rule by the gods....if there were any.

Kevin R
William December Starr
2017-02-01 23:01:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
But what comes to my mind is a quotation from (I think) St.
Catherine of Siena: "The fire of Hell is the light of God
as seen by those who have rejected him."
And I bet they see it more clearly than the faithful.

-- wds
t***@gmail.com
2017-02-02 02:28:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lynn McGuire
I am reading a SF book right now about a Von Neumann probe that covers the next 150 years. In the book by 2050, the Earth has
aligned into six countries: The North American Christian Union named F.A.I.T.H., The United States of Europe, Australia, The
Brazilian Union, the African Union, and China.
Did China take over ALL of Asia?
Post by Lynn McGuire
https://www.amazon.com/We-Are-Legion-Bob-Bobiverse/dp/1680680323/
This is the second author that I have read who is predicting that the USA will soon devolve into a Christian Theocracy. As
Christian, I hope not, the church does not handle power well. The first author is Robert Heinlein. I am sure that there have been
others over the years that I am not remembering. Got any books or author names ?
Thanks,
Lynn
Lynn McGuire
2017-02-02 03:07:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by t***@gmail.com
Post by Lynn McGuire
I am reading a SF book right now about a Von Neumann probe that covers the next 150 years. In the book by 2050, the Earth has
aligned into six countries: The North American Christian Union named F.A.I.T.H., The United States of Europe, Australia, The
Brazilian Union, the African Union, and China.
Did China take over ALL of Asia?
Post by Lynn McGuire
https://www.amazon.com/We-Are-Legion-Bob-Bobiverse/dp/1680680323/
This is the second author that I have read who is predicting that the USA will soon devolve into a Christian Theocracy. As
Christian, I hope not, the church does not handle power well. The first author is Robert Heinlein. I am sure that there have been
others over the years that I am not remembering. Got any books or author names ?
Thanks,
Lynn
I had it wrong. The USE = the United States of Eurasia. I am not sure of where the author drew his boundaries.

Lynn
Dimensional Traveler
2017-02-02 04:56:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by t***@gmail.com
Post by Lynn McGuire
I am reading a SF book right now about a Von Neumann probe that
covers the next 150 years. In the book by 2050, the Earth has
aligned into six countries: The North American Christian Union named
F.A.I.T.H., The United States of Europe, Australia, The
Brazilian Union, the African Union, and China.
Did China take over ALL of Asia?
Post by Lynn McGuire
https://www.amazon.com/We-Are-Legion-Bob-Bobiverse/dp/1680680323/
This is the second author that I have read who is predicting that the
USA will soon devolve into a Christian Theocracy. As
Christian, I hope not, the church does not handle power well. The
first author is Robert Heinlein. I am sure that there have been
others over the years that I am not remembering. Got any books or author names ?
Thanks,
Lynn
I had it wrong. The USE = the United States of Eurasia. I am not sure
of where the author drew his boundaries.
"We have always been at war with the United States of Eurasia."
--
Running the rec.arts.TV Channels Watched Survey.
Winter 2016 survey began Dec 01 and will end Feb 28
Butch Malahide
2017-02-02 04:55:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lynn McGuire
I am reading a SF book right now about a Von Neumann probe that covers the next 150 years. In the book by 2050, the Earth has
aligned into six countries: The North American Christian Union named F.A.I.T.H., The United States of Europe, Australia, The
Brazilian Union, the African Union, and China.
https://www.amazon.com/We-Are-Legion-Bob-Bobiverse/dp/1680680323/
This is the second author that I have read who is predicting that the USA will soon devolve into a Christian Theocracy. As
Christian, I hope not, the church does not handle power well. The first author is Robert Heinlein. I am sure that there have been
others over the years that I am not remembering. Got any books or author names ?
Thanks,
Lynn
That's been "predicted" in a whole bunch of stories, proving that
sci-fi authors are lousy prophets. In real life, the USA stands a
better chance of turning into a Moslem theocracy or an — ??? — is
"atheocracy" a word?

On the other hand, Golden Age science-fictionists (especially the
artists) predicted very accurately that women of the future would
wear very revealing clothing.
Ted Nolan <tednolan>
2017-02-02 05:03:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by Lynn McGuire
I am reading a SF book right now about a Von Neumann probe that covers
the next 150 years. In the book by 2050, the Earth has
Post by Lynn McGuire
aligned into six countries: The North American Christian Union named
F.A.I.T.H., The United States of Europe, Australia, The
Post by Lynn McGuire
Brazilian Union, the African Union, and China.
https://www.amazon.com/We-Are-Legion-Bob-Bobiverse/dp/1680680323/
This is the second author that I have read who is predicting that the
USA will soon devolve into a Christian Theocracy. As
Post by Lynn McGuire
Christian, I hope not, the church does not handle power well. The
first author is Robert Heinlein. I am sure that there have been
Post by Lynn McGuire
others over the years that I am not remembering. Got any books or
author names ?
Post by Lynn McGuire
Thanks,
Lynn
That's been "predicted" in a whole bunch of stories, proving that
sci-fi authors are lousy prophets. In real life, the USA stands a
better chance of turning into a Moslem theocracy or an — ??? — is
"atheocracy" a word?
On the other hand, Golden Age science-fictionists (especially the
artists) predicted very accurately that women of the future would
wear very revealing clothing.
Still waiting for Leiber's off-the-bosom dresses..
--
------
columbiaclosings.com
What's not in Columbia anymore..
Dorothy J Heydt
2017-02-02 05:24:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by Lynn McGuire
I am reading a SF book right now about a Von Neumann probe that covers
the next 150 years. In the book by 2050, the Earth has
Post by Lynn McGuire
aligned into six countries: The North American Christian Union named
F.A.I.T.H., The United States of Europe, Australia, The
Post by Lynn McGuire
Brazilian Union, the African Union, and China.
https://www.amazon.com/We-Are-Legion-Bob-Bobiverse/dp/1680680323/
This is the second author that I have read who is predicting that the
USA will soon devolve into a Christian Theocracy. As
Post by Lynn McGuire
Christian, I hope not, the church does not handle power well. The
first author is Robert Heinlein. I am sure that there have been
Post by Lynn McGuire
others over the years that I am not remembering. Got any books or
author names ?
Post by Lynn McGuire
Thanks,
Lynn
That's been "predicted" in a whole bunch of stories, proving that
sci-fi authors are lousy prophets. In real life, the USA stands a
better chance of turning into a Moslem theocracy or an — ??? — is
"atheocracy" a word?
On the other hand, Golden Age science-fictionists (especially the
artists) predicted very accurately that women of the future would
wear very revealing clothing.
Still waiting for Leiber's off-the-bosom dresses..
There were a few from some Parisian couteur in ... the 1980s? I
forget.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Dorothy J Heydt
2017-02-02 05:21:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by Lynn McGuire
I am reading a SF book right now about a Von Neumann probe that covers
the next 150 years. In the book by 2050, the Earth has
Post by Lynn McGuire
aligned into six countries: The North American Christian Union named
F.A.I.T.H., The United States of Europe, Australia, The
Post by Lynn McGuire
Brazilian Union, the African Union, and China.
https://www.amazon.com/We-Are-Legion-Bob-Bobiverse/dp/1680680323/
This is the second author that I have read who is predicting that the
USA will soon devolve into a Christian Theocracy. As
Post by Lynn McGuire
Christian, I hope not, the church does not handle power well. The
first author is Robert Heinlein. I am sure that there have been
Post by Lynn McGuire
others over the years that I am not remembering. Got any books or
author names ?
Post by Lynn McGuire
Thanks,
Lynn
That's been "predicted" in a whole bunch of stories, proving that
sci-fi authors are lousy prophets. In real life, the USA stands a
better chance of turning into a Moslem theocracy or an — ??? — is
"atheocracy" a word?
On the other hand, Golden Age science-fictionists (especially the
artists) predicted very accurately that women of the future would
wear very revealing clothing.
And some do. I just threw into the recycling bin a Target catalog
showing women of the present day wearing very revealing clothing.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
h***@gmail.com
2017-02-02 05:54:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Butch Malahide
Post by Lynn McGuire
This is the second author that I have read who is predicting that the USA will soon devolve into a Christian Theocracy.
That's been "predicted" in a whole bunch of stories, proving that
sci-fi authors are lousy prophets.
Actually proving that science fiction authors aren't involved in prophecy, they're writing stories....
Post by Butch Malahide
In real life, the USA stands a
better chance of turning into a Moslem theocracy or an — ??? — is
"atheocracy" a word?
Yeah, it's not like there are whole heap of christian fundamentalists involved in the government is it?
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