Discussion:
Twenty Core SF Books Every True SF Fan Should Have On Their Shelves
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James Nicoll
2017-03-03 19:32:12 UTC
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People are always posting Essential Lists of SF online so I thought I
would do a few of my own. This is the first one.

A Door Into Ocean by Joan Slonczewski
A Voice Out of Ramah by Lee Killough
A Wrinkle in Time by Madeleine L’Engle
Ancillary Justice by Ann Leckie
China Mountain Zhang by Maureen McHugh

Don't Bite the Sun by Tanith Lee
Dreamsnake by Vonda N. McIntyre
Frankenstein by Mary Shelly
Galactic Derelict by Andre Norton
Gate of Ivrel by C.J. Cherryh

Golden Witchbreed by Mary Gentle
Jirel of Joiry by C.L. Moore
Kindred by Octavia E. Butler
Ninefox Gambit by Yoon Ha Lee
The Dispossessed by Ursula K. Le Guin

The Female Man by Joanna Russ
The Many Colored Land by Julian May
The Next Continent by Issui Ogawa
The Snow Queen by Joan D. Vinge
Warm Worlds and Otherwise by James Tiptree, Jr.
--
My reviews can be found at http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/
My Livejournal at http://www.livejournal.com/users/james_nicoll
My patreon is at https://www.patreon.com/jamesdnicoll
Moriarty
2017-03-03 20:07:23 UTC
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Post by James Nicoll
People are always posting Essential Lists of SF online so I thought I
would do a few of my own. This is the first one.
A Door Into Ocean by Joan Slonczewski
A Voice Out of Ramah by Lee Killough
A Wrinkle in Time by Madeleine L’Engle
Ancillary Justice by Ann Leckie
China Mountain Zhang by Maureen McHugh
Don't Bite the Sun by Tanith Lee
Dreamsnake by Vonda N. McIntyre
Frankenstein by Mary Shelly
Galactic Derelict by Andre Norton
Gate of Ivrel by C.J. Cherryh
Golden Witchbreed by Mary Gentle
Jirel of Joiry by C.L. Moore
Kindred by Octavia E. Butler
Ninefox Gambit by Yoon Ha Lee
The Dispossessed by Ursula K. Le Guin
The Female Man by Joanna Russ
The Many Colored Land by Julian May
The Next Continent by Issui Ogawa
The Snow Queen by Joan D. Vinge
Warm Worlds and Otherwise by James Tiptree, Jr.
Great Deity! I've only got two of those (A Wrinkle in Time and Frankenstein) and I've read a third (The Many Colored Land).

-Moriarty
Lawrence Watt-Evans
2017-03-03 20:29:18 UTC
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On Fri, 3 Mar 2017 12:07:23 -0800 (PST), Moriarty
Post by Moriarty
Post by James Nicoll
People are always posting Essential Lists of SF online so I thought I
would do a few of my own. This is the first one.
A Door Into Ocean by Joan Slonczewski
A Voice Out of Ramah by Lee Killough
A Wrinkle in Time by Madeleine L’Engle
Ancillary Justice by Ann Leckie
China Mountain Zhang by Maureen McHugh
Don't Bite the Sun by Tanith Lee
Dreamsnake by Vonda N. McIntyre
Frankenstein by Mary Shelly
Galactic Derelict by Andre Norton
Gate of Ivrel by C.J. Cherryh
Golden Witchbreed by Mary Gentle
Jirel of Joiry by C.L. Moore
Kindred by Octavia E. Butler
Ninefox Gambit by Yoon Ha Lee
The Dispossessed by Ursula K. Le Guin
The Female Man by Joanna Russ
The Many Colored Land by Julian May
The Next Continent by Issui Ogawa
The Snow Queen by Joan D. Vinge
Warm Worlds and Otherwise by James Tiptree, Jr.
Great Deity! I've only got two of those (A Wrinkle in Time and Frankenstein) and I've read a third (The Many Colored Land).
I've only read three, but I have several more -- ten, I think -- on my
shelves waiting their turn. And I've read works by at least thirteen
of the authors (counting my original three), just not these specific
books.

(I really didn't like one of the three, by the way -- _A Wrinkle in
Time_.)

I'm a bit surprised not to see any McCaffrey, and personally I might
have included Phyllis Gottlieb's _Sunburst_.
--
My webpage is at http://www.watt-evans.com
J. Clarke
2017-03-03 23:59:16 UTC
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In article
<***@reader80.ete
rnal-september.org>, ***@gmail.com
says...
Post by Lawrence Watt-Evans
On Fri, 3 Mar 2017 12:07:23 -0800 (PST), Moriarty
Post by Moriarty
Post by James Nicoll
People are always posting Essential Lists of SF online so I thought I
would do a few of my own. This is the first one.
A Door Into Ocean by Joan Slonczewski
A Voice Out of Ramah by Lee Killough
A Wrinkle in Time by Madeleine L?Engle
Ancillary Justice by Ann Leckie
China Mountain Zhang by Maureen McHugh
Don't Bite the Sun by Tanith Lee
Dreamsnake by Vonda N. McIntyre
Frankenstein by Mary Shelly
Galactic Derelict by Andre Norton
Gate of Ivrel by C.J. Cherryh
Golden Witchbreed by Mary Gentle
Jirel of Joiry by C.L. Moore
Kindred by Octavia E. Butler
Ninefox Gambit by Yoon Ha Lee
The Dispossessed by Ursula K. Le Guin
The Female Man by Joanna Russ
The Many Colored Land by Julian May
The Next Continent by Issui Ogawa
The Snow Queen by Joan D. Vinge
Warm Worlds and Otherwise by James Tiptree, Jr.
Great Deity! I've only got two of those (A Wrinkle in Time and Frankenstein) and I've read a third (The Many Colored Land).
I've only read three, but I have several more -- ten, I think -- on my
shelves waiting their turn. And I've read works by at least thirteen
of the authors (counting my original three), just not these specific
books.
(I really didn't like one of the three, by the way -- _A Wrinkle in
Time_.)
I'm a bit surprised not to see any McCaffrey, and personally I might
have included Phyllis Gottlieb's _Sunburst_.
I've read about half of them--there are several
that I'm not sure now if I've read or just had
on my list so long that they've become
ingrained.
Jack Bohn
2017-03-04 14:57:50 UTC
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Post by J. Clarke
I've read about half of them--there are several
that I'm not sure now if I've read or just had
on my list so long that they've become
ingrained.
Hear here. Also have to check if I've read enough Jirel of Joiry stories to "count as" the book.

At least short fiction hasn't been ignored, with a collection of unrelated stories. Hmm... pare _Dreamsnake_ down to "Of Mist, and Grass, and Sand", and there's an anthology it appeared in, but I could see why you wouldn't want to include it.
--
-Jack
Carl Fink
2017-03-04 04:15:03 UTC
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On 2017-03-03, Lawrence Watt-Evans <***@gmail.com> wrote:
[big snip]
Post by Lawrence Watt-Evans
I've only read three, but I have several more -- ten, I think -- on my
shelves waiting their turn. And I've read works by at least thirteen
of the authors (counting my original three), just not these specific
books.
I've read 13, but I only remember about 5.
Post by Lawrence Watt-Evans
(I really didn't like one of the three, by the way -- _A Wrinkle in
Time_.)
That's one of the ones I remember, and quite liked.
--
Carl Fink ***@nitpicking.com

Read my blog at blog.nitpicking.com. Reviews! Observations!
Stupid mistakes you can correct!
Lawrence Watt-Evans
2017-03-04 04:18:56 UTC
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Post by Carl Fink
[big snip]
Post by Lawrence Watt-Evans
I've only read three, but I have several more -- ten, I think -- on my
shelves waiting their turn. And I've read works by at least thirteen
of the authors (counting my original three), just not these specific
books.
I've read 13, but I only remember about 5.
Post by Lawrence Watt-Evans
(I really didn't like one of the three, by the way -- _A Wrinkle in
Time_.)
That's one of the ones I remember, and quite liked.
Most people like it. I honestly don't understand that.
--
My webpage is at http://www.watt-evans.com
Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)
2017-03-04 14:55:20 UTC
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Post by Lawrence Watt-Evans
Post by Carl Fink
[big snip]
Post by Lawrence Watt-Evans
I've only read three, but I have several more -- ten, I think -- on my
shelves waiting their turn. And I've read works by at least thirteen
of the authors (counting my original three), just not these specific
books.
I've read 13, but I only remember about 5.
Post by Lawrence Watt-Evans
(I really didn't like one of the three, by the way -- _A Wrinkle in
Time_.)
That's one of the ones I remember, and quite liked.
Most people like it. I honestly don't understand that.
I like _A Wrinkle In Time_, but I think that _So You Want To Be A
Wizard_ does an awful lot of the stuff Wrinkle does much better than
Wrinkle did it.

This isn't an unusual phenomenon -- someone comes up with a plot, type
of story, type of character, etc., and it's really interesting and in
one way or another groundbreaking, but it doesn't really hit the
potential of the idea; that's left to people who copy the basic idea and
then do it better. I've seen it several times in anime as well as in
writing.
--
Sea Wasp
/^\
;;;
Website: http://www.grandcentralarena.com Blog:
http://seawasp.livejournal.com
Carl Fink
2017-03-04 15:09:38 UTC
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Post by Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)
I like _A Wrinkle In Time_, but I think that _So You Want To Be A
Wizard_ does an awful lot of the stuff Wrinkle does much better than
Wrinkle did it.
Both books started series. In my opinion, the Wizard books degenerated
faster than the Murry family books, and further, until they became "my
cats defeat Lucifer in battle because they're cool." (No, that was the
actual plot: avatars of Duane's cats fought Lucifer.)
--
Carl Fink ***@nitpicking.com

Read my blog at blog.nitpicking.com. Reviews! Observations!
Stupid mistakes you can correct!
Ahasuerus
2017-03-04 21:13:44 UTC
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On Saturday, March 4, 2017 at 9:55:23 AM UTC-5, Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor) wrote:
[snip-snip]
Post by Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)
This isn't an unusual phenomenon -- someone comes up with a plot, type
of story, type of character, etc., and it's really interesting and in
one way or another groundbreaking, but it doesn't really hit the
potential of the idea; that's left to people who copy the basic idea and
then do it better. I've seen it several times in anime as well as in
writing.
Indeed. I expect that the number of people who have read and enjoyed
alternative history novels is much greater than the number of people who
have read Louis-Napoleon Geoffroy-Chateau's _Napoléon et la conquête du
monde, 1812-1832: Histoire de la monarchie universalle_ (1836) (English
translation as _Napoléon and the Conquest of the World 1812-1832:
A Fictional History_, 1994.)
Dorothy J Heydt
2017-03-04 21:23:15 UTC
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Post by Ahasuerus
[snip-snip]
Post by Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)
This isn't an unusual phenomenon -- someone comes up with a plot, type
of story, type of character, etc., and it's really interesting and in
one way or another groundbreaking, but it doesn't really hit the
potential of the idea; that's left to people who copy the basic idea and
then do it better. I've seen it several times in anime as well as in
writing.
Indeed. I expect that the number of people who have read and enjoyed
alternative history novels is much greater than the number of people who
have read Louis-Napoleon Geoffroy-Chateau's _Napoléon et la conquête du
monde, 1812-1832: Histoire de la monarchie universalle_ (1836) (English
A Fictional History_, 1994.)
Or even Churchill's "If Lee Had Lost at Gettysburg."

(I haven't either, but Boucher mentions it in _Rocket to the
Morgue._)
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
James Nicoll
2017-03-04 15:52:32 UTC
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Post by Lawrence Watt-Evans
I'm a bit surprised not to see any McCaffrey, and personally I might
have included Phyllis Gottlieb's _Sunburst_.
McCaffrey is reserved for the N Authors Whose Appeal I Don't Get But I Am
Obligated to Acknowledge They Anyway list and my exposure to Gottlieb's
work is very limited.
--
My reviews can be found at http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/
My Livejournal at http://www.livejournal.com/users/james_nicoll
My patreon is at https://www.patreon.com/jamesdnicoll
Lawrence Watt-Evans
2017-03-04 17:27:42 UTC
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Post by James Nicoll
Post by Lawrence Watt-Evans
I'm a bit surprised not to see any McCaffrey, and personally I might
have included Phyllis Gottlieb's _Sunburst_.
McCaffrey is reserved for the N Authors Whose Appeal I Don't Get But I Am
Obligated to Acknowledge They Anyway list and my exposure to Gottlieb's
work is very limited.
Alas, everybody's exposure to Gottlieb is very limited. But I loved
_Sunburst_.
--
My webpage is at http://www.watt-evans.com
Ahasuerus
2017-03-04 16:09:13 UTC
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On Friday, March 3, 2017 at 3:29:26 PM UTC-5, Lawrence Watt-Evans wrote:
[snip]
Post by Lawrence Watt-Evans
I'm a bit surprised not to see any McCaffrey, and personally I might
have included Phyllis Gottlieb's _Sunburst_.
Checking "Millennium / Gollancz SF Masterworks"
(http://www.isfdb.org/cgi-bin/pubseries.cgi?8+2), I see books by Le Guin,
Tepper and Wilhelm.

The more recent "Gollancz SF Masterworks"
(http://www.isfdb.org/cgi-bin/pubseries.cgi?9) includes books by Russ,
Engh, Holland, Cadigan, Griffith, Fowler, Shelley, Willis, Pollack,
Tepper, Brackett, Tiptree, Le Guin, "Murray Constantine", and McHugh.
Robert Bannister
2017-03-04 02:58:15 UTC
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Post by Moriarty
Post by James Nicoll
People are always posting Essential Lists of SF online so I thought I
would do a few of my own. This is the first one.
A Door Into Ocean by Joan Slonczewski
A Voice Out of Ramah by Lee Killough
A Wrinkle in Time by Madeleine L’Engle
Ancillary Justice by Ann Leckie
China Mountain Zhang by Maureen McHugh
Don't Bite the Sun by Tanith Lee
Dreamsnake by Vonda N. McIntyre
Frankenstein by Mary Shelly
Galactic Derelict by Andre Norton
Gate of Ivrel by C.J. Cherryh
Golden Witchbreed by Mary Gentle
Jirel of Joiry by C.L. Moore
Kindred by Octavia E. Butler
Ninefox Gambit by Yoon Ha Lee
The Dispossessed by Ursula K. Le Guin
The Female Man by Joanna Russ
The Many Colored Land by Julian May
The Next Continent by Issui Ogawa
The Snow Queen by Joan D. Vinge
Warm Worlds and Otherwise by James Tiptree, Jr.
Great Deity! I've only got two of those (A Wrinkle in Time and Frankenstein) and I've read a third (The Many Colored Land).
-Moriarty
I'm not sure how many I own - not many - but there are only about six or
seven that I've never read.
--
Robert B. born England a long time ago;
Western Australia since 1972
Anthony Nance
2017-03-03 20:28:22 UTC
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Post by James Nicoll
People are always posting Essential Lists of SF online so I thought I
would do a few of my own. This is the first one.
A Door Into Ocean by Joan Slonczewski
A Voice Out of Ramah by Lee Killough
A Wrinkle in Time by Madeleine L???Engle
Ancillary Justice by Ann Leckie
China Mountain Zhang by Maureen McHugh
Don't Bite the Sun by Tanith Lee
Dreamsnake by Vonda N. McIntyre
Frankenstein by Mary Shelly
Galactic Derelict by Andre Norton
Gate of Ivrel by C.J. Cherryh
Golden Witchbreed by Mary Gentle
Jirel of Joiry by C.L. Moore
Kindred by Octavia E. Butler
Ninefox Gambit by Yoon Ha Lee
The Dispossessed by Ursula K. Le Guin
The Female Man by Joanna Russ
The Many Colored Land by Julian May
The Next Continent by Issui Ogawa
The Snow Queen by Joan D. Vinge
Warm Worlds and Otherwise by James Tiptree, Jr.
Hm. Given the adjective "essential", mine would overlap yours
with the L'Engle, Leckie, McHugh, Moore, Norton, Shelley, and
Tiptree. I'd have a different selection for Le Guin, but it's
hard to choose which - let's say A WIzard of Earthsea.

That leaves 12. Let's go with:
Addison - The Goblin Emperor
Bujold - The Curse of Chalion
Brackett - The Book of Skaith (if I'm allowed to cheat)
DWJones - Howl's Moving Castle
Jemisin - The Hundred Thousand Kingdoms
MacAvoy - Tea with the Black Dragon
McCaffrey - Dragonflight
McKillip - The Riddle-Master of Hed
McKinley - Sunshine
Rowling - HP & the PS
Stewart - The Crystal Cave
Liz WIlliams - Snake Agent

I half-considered Lord Demon (or Donnerjack), something by Ilona Andrews,
and something from the Liaden Universe, but they didn't quite make it.

Tony
Robert Bannister
2017-03-04 02:59:42 UTC
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Post by Anthony Nance
Post by James Nicoll
People are always posting Essential Lists of SF online so I thought I
would do a few of my own. This is the first one.
A Door Into Ocean by Joan Slonczewski
A Voice Out of Ramah by Lee Killough
A Wrinkle in Time by Madeleine L???Engle
Ancillary Justice by Ann Leckie
China Mountain Zhang by Maureen McHugh
Don't Bite the Sun by Tanith Lee
Dreamsnake by Vonda N. McIntyre
Frankenstein by Mary Shelly
Galactic Derelict by Andre Norton
Gate of Ivrel by C.J. Cherryh
Golden Witchbreed by Mary Gentle
Jirel of Joiry by C.L. Moore
Kindred by Octavia E. Butler
Ninefox Gambit by Yoon Ha Lee
The Dispossessed by Ursula K. Le Guin
The Female Man by Joanna Russ
The Many Colored Land by Julian May
The Next Continent by Issui Ogawa
The Snow Queen by Joan D. Vinge
Warm Worlds and Otherwise by James Tiptree, Jr.
Hm. Given the adjective "essential", mine would overlap yours
with the L'Engle, Leckie, McHugh, Moore, Norton, Shelley, and
Tiptree. I'd have a different selection for Le Guin, but it's
hard to choose which - let's say A WIzard of Earthsea.
Addison - The Goblin Emperor
Bujold - The Curse of Chalion
Brackett - The Book of Skaith (if I'm allowed to cheat)
DWJones - Howl's Moving Castle
Jemisin - The Hundred Thousand Kingdoms
MacAvoy - Tea with the Black Dragon
McCaffrey - Dragonflight
McKillip - The Riddle-Master of Hed
McKinley - Sunshine
Rowling - HP & the PS
Stewart - The Crystal Cave
Liz WIlliams - Snake Agent
I half-considered Lord Demon (or Donnerjack), something by Ilona Andrews,
and something from the Liaden Universe, but they didn't quite make it.
Tony
Wow! There are only two of those that I've read or even heard of.
--
Robert B. born England a long time ago;
Western Australia since 1972
Lynn McGuire
2017-03-03 22:03:55 UTC
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Post by James Nicoll
People are always posting Essential Lists of SF online so I thought I
would do a few of my own. This is the first one.
A Door Into Ocean by Joan Slonczewski
A Voice Out of Ramah by Lee Killough
A Wrinkle in Time by Madeleine L’Engle
Ancillary Justice by Ann Leckie
China Mountain Zhang by Maureen McHugh
Don't Bite the Sun by Tanith Lee
Dreamsnake by Vonda N. McIntyre
Frankenstein by Mary Shelly
Galactic Derelict by Andre Norton
Gate of Ivrel by C.J. Cherryh
Golden Witchbreed by Mary Gentle
Jirel of Joiry by C.L. Moore
Kindred by Octavia E. Butler
Ninefox Gambit by Yoon Ha Lee
The Dispossessed by Ursula K. Le Guin
The Female Man by Joanna Russ
The Many Colored Land by Julian May
The Next Continent by Issui Ogawa
The Snow Queen by Joan D. Vinge
Warm Worlds and Otherwise by James Tiptree, Jr.
I have two of these. The _Ancillary Justice_ and _Galactic Derelict_. Maybe _The Snow Queen_. The wife has a _A Wrinkle in Time_
in her book case.

The list seems oriented towards female authors. And needs some _Mutineer's Moon_ and maybe some _Lucifer's Hammer_.

Lynn
David Johnston
2017-03-03 22:29:08 UTC
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Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by James Nicoll
People are always posting Essential Lists of SF online so I thought I
would do a few of my own. This is the first one.
A Door Into Ocean by Joan Slonczewski
A Voice Out of Ramah by Lee Killough
A Wrinkle in Time by Madeleine L’Engle
Ancillary Justice by Ann Leckie
China Mountain Zhang by Maureen McHugh
Don't Bite the Sun by Tanith Lee
Dreamsnake by Vonda N. McIntyre
Frankenstein by Mary Shelly
Galactic Derelict by Andre Norton
Gate of Ivrel by C.J. Cherryh
Golden Witchbreed by Mary Gentle
Jirel of Joiry by C.L. Moore
Kindred by Octavia E. Butler
Ninefox Gambit by Yoon Ha Lee
The Dispossessed by Ursula K. Le Guin
The Female Man by Joanna Russ
The Many Colored Land by Julian May
The Next Continent by Issui Ogawa
The Snow Queen by Joan D. Vinge
Warm Worlds and Otherwise by James Tiptree, Jr.
I have two of these. The _Ancillary Justice_ and _Galactic Derelict_.
Maybe _The Snow Queen_. The wife has a _A Wrinkle in Time_ in her book
case.
The list seems oriented towards female authors. And needs some
_Mutineer's Moon_ and maybe some _Lucifer's Hammer_.
Lynn
Mutineer's Moon? I'm not sure a retread of Perry Rhodan #1 is really a
must have. Me I'd go with Lord of Light.
Lynn McGuire
2017-03-04 02:54:59 UTC
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Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by James Nicoll
People are always posting Essential Lists of SF online so I thought I
would do a few of my own. This is the first one.
A Door Into Ocean by Joan Slonczewski
A Voice Out of Ramah by Lee Killough
A Wrinkle in Time by Madeleine L’Engle
Ancillary Justice by Ann Leckie
China Mountain Zhang by Maureen McHugh
Don't Bite the Sun by Tanith Lee
Dreamsnake by Vonda N. McIntyre
Frankenstein by Mary Shelly
Galactic Derelict by Andre Norton
Gate of Ivrel by C.J. Cherryh
Golden Witchbreed by Mary Gentle
Jirel of Joiry by C.L. Moore
Kindred by Octavia E. Butler
Ninefox Gambit by Yoon Ha Lee
The Dispossessed by Ursula K. Le Guin
The Female Man by Joanna Russ
The Many Colored Land by Julian May
The Next Continent by Issui Ogawa
The Snow Queen by Joan D. Vinge
Warm Worlds and Otherwise by James Tiptree, Jr.
I have two of these. The _Ancillary Justice_ and _Galactic Derelict_.
Maybe _The Snow Queen_. The wife has a _A Wrinkle in Time_ in her book
case.
The list seems oriented towards female authors. And needs some
_Mutineer's Moon_ and maybe some _Lucifer's Hammer_.
Lynn
Mutineer's Moon? I'm not sure a retread of Perry Rhodan #1 is really a must have. Me I'd go with Lord of Light.
While there are many similarities, _Mutineer's Moon_ and __Mutineer's Moon__ are not alike. Thora is blond haired and Jiltanith is
black haired.

And, there is no obligatory Heinlein in the list.

Lynn
Lynn McGuire
2017-03-04 03:15:06 UTC
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Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by James Nicoll
People are always posting Essential Lists of SF online so I thought I
would do a few of my own. This is the first one.
A Door Into Ocean by Joan Slonczewski
A Voice Out of Ramah by Lee Killough
A Wrinkle in Time by Madeleine L’Engle
Ancillary Justice by Ann Leckie
China Mountain Zhang by Maureen McHugh
Don't Bite the Sun by Tanith Lee
Dreamsnake by Vonda N. McIntyre
Frankenstein by Mary Shelly
Galactic Derelict by Andre Norton
Gate of Ivrel by C.J. Cherryh
Golden Witchbreed by Mary Gentle
Jirel of Joiry by C.L. Moore
Kindred by Octavia E. Butler
Ninefox Gambit by Yoon Ha Lee
The Dispossessed by Ursula K. Le Guin
The Female Man by Joanna Russ
The Many Colored Land by Julian May
The Next Continent by Issui Ogawa
The Snow Queen by Joan D. Vinge
Warm Worlds and Otherwise by James Tiptree, Jr.
I have two of these. The _Ancillary Justice_ and _Galactic Derelict_.
Maybe _The Snow Queen_. The wife has a _A Wrinkle in Time_ in her book
case.
The list seems oriented towards female authors. And needs some
_Mutineer's Moon_ and maybe some _Lucifer's Hammer_.
Lynn
Mutineer's Moon? I'm not sure a retread of Perry Rhodan #1 is really a must have. Me I'd go with Lord of Light.
While there are many similarities, _Mutineer's Moon_ and __Mutineer's Moon__ are not alike. Thora is blond haired and Jiltanith is
black haired.
And, there is no obligatory Heinlein in the list.
Lynn
^_Mutineer's Moon_ and __Mutineer's Moon__^_Mutineer's Moon_ and _Perry Rhodan #1_

I claim incompetence. And a very long week.

Lynn
David Johnston
2017-03-04 03:38:58 UTC
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Post by David Johnston
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by James Nicoll
People are always posting Essential Lists of SF online so I thought I
would do a few of my own. This is the first one.
A Door Into Ocean by Joan Slonczewski
A Voice Out of Ramah by Lee Killough
A Wrinkle in Time by Madeleine L’Engle
Ancillary Justice by Ann Leckie
China Mountain Zhang by Maureen McHugh
Don't Bite the Sun by Tanith Lee
Dreamsnake by Vonda N. McIntyre
Frankenstein by Mary Shelly
Galactic Derelict by Andre Norton
Gate of Ivrel by C.J. Cherryh
Golden Witchbreed by Mary Gentle
Jirel of Joiry by C.L. Moore
Kindred by Octavia E. Butler
Ninefox Gambit by Yoon Ha Lee
The Dispossessed by Ursula K. Le Guin
The Female Man by Joanna Russ
The Many Colored Land by Julian May
The Next Continent by Issui Ogawa
The Snow Queen by Joan D. Vinge
Warm Worlds and Otherwise by James Tiptree, Jr.
I have two of these. The _Ancillary Justice_ and _Galactic Derelict_.
Maybe _The Snow Queen_. The wife has a _A Wrinkle in Time_ in her book
case.
The list seems oriented towards female authors. And needs some
_Mutineer's Moon_ and maybe some _Lucifer's Hammer_.
Lynn
Mutineer's Moon? I'm not sure a retread of Perry Rhodan #1 is really
a must have. Me I'd go with Lord of Light.
While there are many similarities, _Mutineer's Moon_ and _Perry Rhodan #1_
are not alike. Thora is blond haired and Jiltanith is black haired.
You make a compelling point.
And, there is no obligatory Heinlein in the list.
Well it is fairly obviously that this is a list of SF books written by
women so unless Heinlein had a time machine and a futuristic sex change
operation so he could marry and give birth to himself...
Lynn
James Nicoll
2017-03-04 05:21:31 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by David Johnston
Post by David Johnston
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by James Nicoll
People are always posting Essential Lists of SF online so I thought I
would do a few of my own. This is the first one.
A Door Into Ocean by Joan Slonczewski
A Voice Out of Ramah by Lee Killough
A Wrinkle in Time by Madeleine L’Engle
Ancillary Justice by Ann Leckie
China Mountain Zhang by Maureen McHugh
Don't Bite the Sun by Tanith Lee
Dreamsnake by Vonda N. McIntyre
Frankenstein by Mary Shelly
Galactic Derelict by Andre Norton
Gate of Ivrel by C.J. Cherryh
Golden Witchbreed by Mary Gentle
Jirel of Joiry by C.L. Moore
Kindred by Octavia E. Butler
Ninefox Gambit by Yoon Ha Lee
The Dispossessed by Ursula K. Le Guin
The Female Man by Joanna Russ
The Many Colored Land by Julian May
The Next Continent by Issui Ogawa
The Snow Queen by Joan D. Vinge
Warm Worlds and Otherwise by James Tiptree, Jr.
I have two of these. The _Ancillary Justice_ and _Galactic Derelict_.
Maybe _The Snow Queen_. The wife has a _A Wrinkle in Time_ in her book
case.
The list seems oriented towards female authors. And needs some
_Mutineer's Moon_ and maybe some _Lucifer's Hammer_.
Lynn
Mutineer's Moon? I'm not sure a retread of Perry Rhodan #1 is really
a must have. Me I'd go with Lord of Light.
While there are many similarities, _Mutineer's Moon_ and _Perry Rhodan #1_
are not alike. Thora is blond haired and Jiltanith is black haired.
You make a compelling point.
And, there is no obligatory Heinlein in the list.
Well it is fairly obviously that this is a list of SF books written by
women so unless Heinlein had a time machine and a futuristic sex change
operation so he could marry and give birth to himself...
No, without even looking hard I can see two men in the list. I chose
purely on merit. People who claim some sort of hidden agenda here are
probably all working for the KGB. Or Texas. Same thing, it turns out.
--
My reviews can be found at http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/
My Livejournal at http://www.livejournal.com/users/james_nicoll
My patreon is at https://www.patreon.com/jamesdnicoll
Quadibloc
2017-03-04 06:00:29 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by James Nicoll
No, without even looking hard I can see two men in the list. I chose
purely on merit. People who claim some sort of hidden agenda here are
probably all working for the KGB. Or Texas. Same thing, it turns out.
Ah. In any case, it isn't the sort of list most people expect - Heinlein, Asimov,
Clarke, Simak... and Wells. And Bradbury. Maybe even Stapledon?

John Savard
David Johnston
2017-03-04 06:15:26 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Quadibloc
Post by James Nicoll
No, without even looking hard I can see two men in the list. I chose
purely on merit. People who claim some sort of hidden agenda here are
probably all working for the KGB. Or Texas. Same thing, it turns out.
Ah. In any case, it isn't the sort of list most people expect - Heinlein, Asimov,
Clarke, Simak... and Wells. And Bradbury. Maybe even Stapledon?
John Savard
Did you know that there's no such word as "gullible" in the dictionary?
Quadibloc
2017-03-04 06:34:42 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by David Johnston
Did you know that there's no such word as "gullible" in the dictionary?
Really! When I was a kid, I remember someone telling me that there was no such
word as "remorse" in the dictionary.

John Savard
Quadibloc
2017-03-04 06:37:39 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by David Johnston
Did you know that there's no such word as "gullible" in the dictionary?
...Ah. You failed to grasp how I deal with irony. As the list was heavily weighted
in favor of female authors - and even if that was an accident, and it was chosen
purely on what he considered merit, he was definitely being facetious when he
brought in the KGB and/or the FSB, never mind the State of Texas - I _did_
realize, despite my deadpan reply, that his statement was not meant to be taken in
full literalness.

John Savard
David DeLaney
2017-03-06 11:47:45 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Quadibloc
Post by David Johnston
Did you know that there's no such word as "gullible" in the dictionary?
...Ah. You failed to grasp how I deal with irony. As the list was heavily weighted
in favor of female authors
..."heavily"?

Dave, sensible as a dictionary
--
\/David DeLaney posting thru EarthLink - "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
gatekeeper.vic.com/~dbd - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.
Quadibloc
2017-03-07 16:10:10 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by David DeLaney
..."heavily"?
Dave, sensible as a dictionary
I wasn't accusing any of those authors of being overweight!!

John Savard
Quadibloc
2017-03-04 06:33:02 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Quadibloc
Post by James Nicoll
No, without even looking hard I can see two men in the list. I chose
purely on merit. People who claim some sort of hidden agenda here are
probably all working for the KGB. Or Texas. Same thing, it turns out.
Ah. In any case, it isn't the sort of list most people expect - Heinlein, Asimov,
Clarke, Simak... and Wells. And Bradbury. Maybe even Stapledon?
...I've started my own thread with a list of 20 works which is the kind of list
I think people usually think of and expect to see, as opposed to the one with
which you have presented us.

Probably highly influenced by sales figures, name reputation, and familiarity
from back when science fiction was more popular. So it can be torn to shreds in
its own thread.

John Savard
Quadibloc
2017-03-04 06:30:08 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by James Nicoll
No, without even looking hard I can see two men in the list.
Julian May and James Tiptree Jr., yes, they're there.

John Savard
Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)
2017-03-04 02:04:37 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by James Nicoll
People are always posting Essential Lists of SF online so I thought I
would do a few of my own. This is the first one.
A Door Into Ocean by Joan Slonczewski
A Voice Out of Ramah by Lee Killough
A Wrinkle in Time by Madeleine L’Engle
Ancillary Justice by Ann Leckie
China Mountain Zhang by Maureen McHugh
Don't Bite the Sun by Tanith Lee
Dreamsnake by Vonda N. McIntyre
Frankenstein by Mary Shelly
Galactic Derelict by Andre Norton
Gate of Ivrel by C.J. Cherryh
Golden Witchbreed by Mary Gentle
Jirel of Joiry by C.L. Moore
Kindred by Octavia E. Butler
Ninefox Gambit by Yoon Ha Lee
The Dispossessed by Ursula K. Le Guin
The Female Man by Joanna Russ
The Many Colored Land by Julian May
The Next Continent by Issui Ogawa
The Snow Queen by Joan D. Vinge
Warm Worlds and Otherwise by James Tiptree, Jr.
I have two of these. The _Ancillary Justice_ and _Galactic Derelict_.
Maybe _The Snow Queen_. The wife has a _A Wrinkle in Time_ in her book
case.
The list seems oriented towards female authors.
That's the point; most "twenty core SF book" lists published are wholly
or nearly wholly male authors. James is deliberately making an opposite
list.
--
Sea Wasp
/^\
;;;
Website: http://www.grandcentralarena.com Blog:
http://seawasp.livejournal.com
David Goldfarb
2017-03-04 08:07:04 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)
Post by Lynn McGuire
The list seems oriented towards female authors.
That's the point; most "twenty core SF book" lists published are wholly
or nearly wholly male authors. James is deliberately making an opposite
list.
There does seem to be one token man.
--
David Goldfarb |"You know, squids are really an underutilized
***@gmail.com | villain origin in many comic books today."
***@ocf.berkeley.edu | -- David R. Henry
David Johnston
2017-03-04 08:33:53 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by David Goldfarb
Post by Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)
Post by Lynn McGuire
The list seems oriented towards female authors.
That's the point; most "twenty core SF book" lists published are wholly
or nearly wholly male authors. James is deliberately making an opposite
list.
There does seem to be one token man.
I'm not so good at picking out asian male names.
Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)
2017-03-04 14:57:21 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by David Goldfarb
Post by Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)
Post by Lynn McGuire
The list seems oriented towards female authors.
That's the point; most "twenty core SF book" lists published are wholly
or nearly wholly male authors. James is deliberately making an opposite
list.
There does seem to be one token man.
As I said, an opposite list. If there's one token man, that's
equivalent to the common lists that are Asimov, Heinlein, Clarke, Van
Vogt, LeGuin...
--
Sea Wasp
/^\
;;;
Website: http://www.grandcentralarena.com Blog:
http://seawasp.livejournal.com
James Nicoll
2017-03-04 15:54:41 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)
Post by David Goldfarb
Post by Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)
Post by Lynn McGuire
The list seems oriented towards female authors.
That's the point; most "twenty core SF book" lists published are wholly
or nearly wholly male authors. James is deliberately making an opposite
list.
There does seem to be one token man.
As I said, an opposite list. If there's one token man, that's
equivalent to the common lists that are Asimov, Heinlein, Clarke, Van
Vogt, LeGuin...
Both Ogawa and Yoon Ha Lee are men.

(I didn't notice until now I have two different Lees on the list)
--
My reviews can be found at http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/
My Livejournal at http://www.livejournal.com/users/james_nicoll
My patreon is at https://www.patreon.com/jamesdnicoll
David Goldfarb
2017-03-05 07:21:01 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by James Nicoll
Post by David Goldfarb
There does seem to be one token man.
Both Ogawa and Yoon Ha Lee are men.
I hadn't realized that Ogawa was. I can tell the gender of some
Japanese names, but not that one.
--
David Goldfarb |"Actually, I just enjoy bursting into flames...
***@gmail.com | You should try it sometime...relieves a lot
***@ocf.berkeley.edu | of stress."
| -- Jen Hill on rec.arts.tv.mst3k
Gene Wirchenko
2017-03-05 21:42:11 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by David Goldfarb
Post by James Nicoll
Post by David Goldfarb
There does seem to be one token man.
Both Ogawa and Yoon Ha Lee are men.
I hadn't realized that Ogawa was. I can tell the gender of some
Japanese names, but not that one.
I expect that Ogawa is a family name.

Sincerely,

Gene Wirchenko
David Goldfarb
2017-03-06 03:26:34 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Gene Wirchenko
Post by David Goldfarb
Post by James Nicoll
Post by David Goldfarb
There does seem to be one token man.
Both Ogawa and Yoon Ha Lee are men.
I hadn't realized that Ogawa was. I can tell the gender of some
Japanese names, but not that one.
I expect that Ogawa is a family name.
Do you know the gender of "Issui" of the top of your head?
--
David Goldfarb |"...with very few exceptions, nothing lasts
***@gmail.com | forever; and among those exceptions no thought
***@ocf.berkeley.edu | or work of man is numbered." -- Iain M. Banks
David DeLaney
2017-03-06 11:49:12 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by David Goldfarb
Post by Gene Wirchenko
I expect that Ogawa is a family name.
Do you know the gender of "Issui" of the top of your head?
Sure - it's Japanese.

Dave, don't try to tell me that's not a separate gender, I've seen manga, I've
heard about the vending machines, I've defined 'hentai' for someone
--
\/David DeLaney posting thru EarthLink - "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
gatekeeper.vic.com/~dbd - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.
Chris Buckley
2017-03-06 03:45:52 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Gene Wirchenko
Post by David Goldfarb
Post by James Nicoll
Post by David Goldfarb
There does seem to be one token man.
Both Ogawa and Yoon Ha Lee are men.
I hadn't realized that Ogawa was. I can tell the gender of some
Japanese names, but not that one.
I expect that Ogawa is a family name.
Could be, but it's apparently a pure pseudonym and his real name is not
publicly known. I assume he's known to be male, though all 19 others on the
list were born female so I had my suspicions....

Chris
James Nicoll
2017-03-06 15:20:42 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Chris Buckley
Post by Gene Wirchenko
Post by David Goldfarb
Post by James Nicoll
Post by David Goldfarb
There does seem to be one token man.
Both Ogawa and Yoon Ha Lee are men.
I hadn't realized that Ogawa was. I can tell the gender of some
Japanese names, but not that one.
I expect that Ogawa is a family name.
Could be, but it's apparently a pure pseudonym and his real name is not
publicly known. I assume he's known to be male, though all 19 others on the
list were born female so I had my suspicions....
Yoon Ha Lee is a man.
--
My reviews can be found at http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/
My Livejournal at http://www.livejournal.com/users/james_nicoll
My patreon is at https://www.patreon.com/jamesdnicoll
Chris Buckley
2017-03-06 15:54:18 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by James Nicoll
Post by Chris Buckley
Post by Gene Wirchenko
Post by David Goldfarb
Post by James Nicoll
Post by David Goldfarb
There does seem to be one token man.
Both Ogawa and Yoon Ha Lee are men.
I hadn't realized that Ogawa was. I can tell the gender of some
Japanese names, but not that one.
I expect that Ogawa is a family name.
Could be, but it's apparently a pure pseudonym and his real name is not
publicly known. I assume he's known to be male, though all 19 others on the
list were born female so I had my suspicions....
Yoon Ha Lee is a man.
And? Are you saying I was wrong to be suspicious of Ogawa being born male
when you chose all 19 others to have a specific characteristic?

Chris
James Nicoll
2017-03-06 16:47:18 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Chris Buckley
Post by James Nicoll
Post by Chris Buckley
Post by Gene Wirchenko
Post by David Goldfarb
Post by James Nicoll
Post by David Goldfarb
There does seem to be one token man.
Both Ogawa and Yoon Ha Lee are men.
I hadn't realized that Ogawa was. I can tell the gender of some
Japanese names, but not that one.
I expect that Ogawa is a family name.
Could be, but it's apparently a pure pseudonym and his real name is not
publicly known. I assume he's known to be male, though all 19 others on the
list were born female so I had my suspicions....
Yoon Ha Lee is a man.
And? Are you saying I was wrong to be suspicious of Ogawa being born male
when you chose all 19 others to have a specific characteristic?
Are you this suspicious of other essential sf lists?
--
My reviews can be found at http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/
My Livejournal at http://www.livejournal.com/users/james_nicoll
My patreon is at https://www.patreon.com/jamesdnicoll
Chris Buckley
2017-03-06 22:40:46 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by James Nicoll
Post by Chris Buckley
Post by James Nicoll
Post by Chris Buckley
Post by Gene Wirchenko
Post by David Goldfarb
Post by James Nicoll
Post by David Goldfarb
There does seem to be one token man.
Both Ogawa and Yoon Ha Lee are men.
I hadn't realized that Ogawa was. I can tell the gender of some
Japanese names, but not that one.
I expect that Ogawa is a family name.
Could be, but it's apparently a pure pseudonym and his real name is not
publicly known. I assume he's known to be male, though all 19 others on the
list were born female so I had my suspicions....
Yoon Ha Lee is a man.
And? Are you saying I was wrong to be suspicious of Ogawa being born male
when you chose all 19 others to have a specific characteristic?
Are you this suspicious of other essential sf lists?
Sure, if I don't know whether presence on the list is a strong
recommendation or not. You may remember my first message in this
thread stated I was very curious as to the criteria used. In
particular, I cited May and Killough as authors I was surprised at
being in the list. The major reason for inclusion that I see (in a
list coming from you; others might view May more favorably) is that
their first names are masculine. If so, then this is a list meant
to deceive and is not a list of the strongest works that meet a
criteria that others might share, whatever it is.

So, should I re-read _A Door into Ocean_ or not? I remember not being
impressed with it at the time (over 30 years ago), but I remember
nothing else about it and perhaps I would appreciate it more now.

Chris
Robert Carnegie
2017-03-07 04:52:30 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Chris Buckley
Post by James Nicoll
Post by Chris Buckley
Post by James Nicoll
Post by Chris Buckley
Post by Gene Wirchenko
Post by David Goldfarb
Post by James Nicoll
Post by David Goldfarb
There does seem to be one token man.
Both Ogawa and Yoon Ha Lee are men.
I hadn't realized that Ogawa was. I can tell the gender of some
Japanese names, but not that one.
I expect that Ogawa is a family name.
Could be, but it's apparently a pure pseudonym and his real name is not
publicly known. I assume he's known to be male, though all 19 others on the
list were born female so I had my suspicions....
Yoon Ha Lee is a man.
And? Are you saying I was wrong to be suspicious of Ogawa being born male
when you chose all 19 others to have a specific characteristic?
Are you this suspicious of other essential sf lists?
Sure, if I don't know whether presence on the list is a strong
recommendation or not. You may remember my first message in this
thread stated I was very curious as to the criteria used. In
particular, I cited May and Killough as authors I was surprised at
being in the list. The major reason for inclusion that I see (in a
list coming from you; others might view May more favorably) is that
their first names are masculine. If so, then this is a list meant
to deceive and is not a list of the strongest works that meet a
criteria that others might share, whatever it is.
In that case, we ought to have J. K. Rowling.
Chris Buckley
2017-03-07 15:23:38 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by Chris Buckley
Post by James Nicoll
Post by Chris Buckley
Post by James Nicoll
Post by Chris Buckley
Post by Gene Wirchenko
Post by David Goldfarb
Post by James Nicoll
Post by David Goldfarb
There does seem to be one token man.
Both Ogawa and Yoon Ha Lee are men.
I hadn't realized that Ogawa was. I can tell the gender of some
Japanese names, but not that one.
I expect that Ogawa is a family name.
Could be, but it's apparently a pure pseudonym and his real name is not
publicly known. I assume he's known to be male, though all 19 others on the
list were born female so I had my suspicions....
Yoon Ha Lee is a man.
And? Are you saying I was wrong to be suspicious of Ogawa being born male
when you chose all 19 others to have a specific characteristic?
Are you this suspicious of other essential sf lists?
Sure, if I don't know whether presence on the list is a strong
recommendation or not. You may remember my first message in this
thread stated I was very curious as to the criteria used. In
particular, I cited May and Killough as authors I was surprised at
being in the list. The major reason for inclusion that I see (in a
list coming from you; others might view May more favorably) is that
their first names are masculine. If so, then this is a list meant
to deceive and is not a list of the strongest works that meet a
criteria that others might share, whatever it is.
In that case, we ought to have J. K. Rowling.
Perhaps a bit too well known as female? I wouldn't have been surprised at
C. S. Friedman _In Conquest Born_ , as an under-appreciated book examining
gender issues.

By the way, "deceive" was a bit strong in my previous message - "mislead"
would have been much better. I'm sure there was no permanent deception
involved, just James making people think twice about the issues.

Chris
Quadibloc
2017-03-08 07:19:07 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Robert Carnegie
In that case, we ought to have J. K. Rowling.
Why would a science-fiction fan, _qua_ science-fiction fan, be someone to whom the
Harry Potter books might be commended? They're not science fiction.

John Savard

James Nicoll
2017-03-07 23:56:32 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Chris Buckley
Post by James Nicoll
Are you this suspicious of other essential sf lists?
Sure, if I don't know whether presence on the list is a strong
recommendation or not.
All of the books on the list are worth reading.
--
My reviews can be found at http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/
My Livejournal at http://www.livejournal.com/users/james_nicoll
My patreon is at https://www.patreon.com/jamesdnicoll
Quadibloc
2017-03-08 07:17:11 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by James Nicoll
All of the books on the list are worth reading.
I see no reason to be skeptical about *that* claim.

Are they close to being the 20 science-fiction books that are more worth reading
than any other? By "close", I mean perhaps being 20 among the best hundred or
so, since one can't demand precision in this sort of thing.

Also, they were referred to as "core" books, and while some of them are indeed quite famous, others are sufficiently obscure that skepticism concerning whether they were influential on the field of science-fiction writing in general is not unreasonable - and the term "core" _appears_ to imply such a claim.

Those are the questions being asked, I think, and they don't seem unreasonable
to me.

The thread title, though, also includes a claim about which there might be
controversy rather than skepticism. The factor that invited skepticism was that
a large majority of the works had woman authors, despite the field being
male-dominated. It is entirely reasonable to advance a list of works of merit by
authors who haven't received the attention they deserved - from causes such as
being female, or writing in languages other than English - and state that these
works, the best or nearly so of those in that category, should be read by those
who haven't - in order to broaden their horizons.

That is, there might be controversy because some people will disagree that their
horizons need any broadening.

John Savard
Quadibloc
2017-03-07 16:12:20 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by James Nicoll
Are you this suspicious of other essential sf lists?
Often, their sources are more prestigious than a mere USENET poster!

And when it was apparent that many - in fact, most - of the authors on the list
were female, suspecting political intent is not strange.

John Savard
Peter Trei
2017-03-07 17:54:13 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Quadibloc
Post by James Nicoll
Are you this suspicious of other essential sf lists?
Often, their sources are more prestigious than a mere USENET poster!
And when it was apparent that many - in fact, most - of the authors on the list
were female, suspecting political intent is not strange.
I took James' thread title as ironically intended. He has a long history of
pointing out how much of fandom has historically ignored women's contributions,
and is trying to redress this imbalance.

He probably feels that most 'core SF' lists don't include a representative and
fair share of women, and this list is intended to point out what things would
look like if the tables were turned.

pt
Ahasuerus
2017-03-07 18:34:52 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On Tuesday, March 7, 2017 at 12:54:15 PM UTC-5, Peter Trei wrote:
[snip]
Post by Peter Trei
He probably feels that most 'core SF' lists don't include a
representative and fair share of women, and this list is intended to
point out what things would look like if the tables were turned.
The original post said:

"People are always posting Essential Lists of SF online so I thought
I would do a few of my own. This is the first one."

Which presumably means that it's "*An* Essential List", not "*The*
Essential List".

If that's the case, then the list doesn't argue that, say, "Galactic
Derelict" is more essential than "Citizen of the Galaxy", only that it too
is essential. In many cases, starting with "Frankenstein", I agree while
in certain other cases it's more debatable. Then again, "essential" lists
rarely lead to unanimous approval.
Magewolf
2017-03-07 18:51:03 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Peter Trei
Post by Quadibloc
Post by James Nicoll
Are you this suspicious of other essential sf lists?
Often, their sources are more prestigious than a mere USENET poster!
And when it was apparent that many - in fact, most - of the authors on the list
were female, suspecting political intent is not strange.
I took James' thread title as ironically intended. He has a long history of
pointing out how much of fandom has historically ignored women's contributions,
and is trying to redress this imbalance.
He probably feels that most 'core SF' lists don't include a representative and
fair share of women, and this list is intended to point out what things would
look like if the tables were turned.
pt
I am sure that was his intent but to be successful at that you need to
put overlooked "core" books in the list. Which I think this lists fails
at. It looks more like a list of at least decent books by women without
using any of the usual suspects(or at least their more famous books).
What is core is not overlooked, what is overlooked is not core.
Gene Wirchenko
2017-03-05 21:43:16 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On Fri, 3 Mar 2017 21:04:37 -0500, "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)"
<***@sgeinc.invalid.com> wrote:

[snip]
Post by Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)
That's the point; most "twenty core SF book" lists published are wholly
or nearly wholly male authors. James is deliberately making an opposite
list.
Then, it is not a core list. A core sf list would not be biased
other than in being core sf.

Sincerely,

Gene Wirchenko
Robert Carnegie
2017-03-03 22:39:58 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by James Nicoll
People are always posting Essential Lists of SF online so I thought I
would do a few of my own. This is the first one.
A Door Into Ocean by Joan Slonczewski
A Voice Out of Ramah by Lee Killough
A Wrinkle in Time by Madeleine L’Engle
Ancillary Justice by Ann Leckie
China Mountain Zhang by Maureen McHugh
Don't Bite the Sun by Tanith Lee
Dreamsnake by Vonda N. McIntyre
Frankenstein by Mary Shelly
Galactic Derelict by Andre Norton
Gate of Ivrel by C.J. Cherryh
Golden Witchbreed by Mary Gentle
Jirel of Joiry by C.L. Moore
Kindred by Octavia E. Butler
Ninefox Gambit by Yoon Ha Lee
The Dispossessed by Ursula K. Le Guin
The Female Man by Joanna Russ
The Many Colored Land by Julian May
The Next Continent by Issui Ogawa
The Snow Queen by Joan D. Vinge
Warm Worlds and Otherwise by James Tiptree, Jr.
--
My reviews can be found at http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/
My Livejournal at http://www.livejournal.com/users/james_nicoll
My patreon is at https://www.patreon.com/jamesdnicoll
The word "Essential" has several meanings.
Making lists of SF books is perhaps "A disease
whose cause is unknown" - or the behaviour
of collecting the books is that.

_Frankenstein_ was a hit in its day but I haven't
made a serious attempt on it. I gather that women -
including the Bride - fare very badly indeed in it.
J. Clarke
2017-03-04 00:00:06 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
In article <e34e0754-f2b7-4022-a359-9c65e65f1f34
@googlegroups.com>, ***@excite.com
says...
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by James Nicoll
People are always posting Essential Lists of SF online so I thought I
would do a few of my own. This is the first one.
A Door Into Ocean by Joan Slonczewski
A Voice Out of Ramah by Lee Killough
A Wrinkle in Time by Madeleine L?Engle
Ancillary Justice by Ann Leckie
China Mountain Zhang by Maureen McHugh
Don't Bite the Sun by Tanith Lee
Dreamsnake by Vonda N. McIntyre
Frankenstein by Mary Shelly
Galactic Derelict by Andre Norton
Gate of Ivrel by C.J. Cherryh
Golden Witchbreed by Mary Gentle
Jirel of Joiry by C.L. Moore
Kindred by Octavia E. Butler
Ninefox Gambit by Yoon Ha Lee
The Dispossessed by Ursula K. Le Guin
The Female Man by Joanna Russ
The Many Colored Land by Julian May
The Next Continent by Issui Ogawa
The Snow Queen by Joan D. Vinge
Warm Worlds and Otherwise by James Tiptree, Jr.
--
My reviews can be found at http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/
My Livejournal at http://www.livejournal.com/users/james_nicoll
My patreon is at https://www.patreon.com/jamesdnicoll
The word "Essential" has several meanings.
Making lists of SF books is perhaps "A disease
whose cause is unknown" - or the behaviour
of collecting the books is that.
_Frankenstein_ was a hit in its day but I haven't
made a serious attempt on it. I gather that women -
including the Bride - fare very badly indeed in it.
It's not a bad story but it's very different
from most of the movies.
Robert Carnegie
2017-03-06 20:47:54 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by James Nicoll
People are always posting Essential Lists of SF online so I thought I
would do a few of my own. This is the first one.
A Door Into Ocean by Joan Slonczewski
A Voice Out of Ramah by Lee Killough
A Wrinkle in Time by Madeleine L’Engle
Ancillary Justice by Ann Leckie
China Mountain Zhang by Maureen McHugh
Don't Bite the Sun by Tanith Lee
Dreamsnake by Vonda N. McIntyre
Frankenstein by Mary Shelly
Galactic Derelict by Andre Norton
Gate of Ivrel by C.J. Cherryh
Golden Witchbreed by Mary Gentle
Jirel of Joiry by C.L. Moore
Kindred by Octavia E. Butler
Ninefox Gambit by Yoon Ha Lee
The Dispossessed by Ursula K. Le Guin
The Female Man by Joanna Russ
The Many Colored Land by Julian May
The Next Continent by Issui Ogawa
The Snow Queen by Joan D. Vinge
Warm Worlds and Otherwise by James Tiptree, Jr.
--
My reviews can be found at http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/
My Livejournal at http://www.livejournal.com/users/james_nicoll
My patreon is at https://www.patreon.com/jamesdnicoll
The word "Essential" has several meanings.
Making lists of SF books is perhaps "A disease
whose cause is unknown" - or the behaviour
of collecting the books is that.
...missing the point -
Post by Robert Carnegie
_Frankenstein_ was a hit in its day but I haven't
made a serious attempt on it. I gather that women -
including the Bride - fare very badly indeed in it.
- mostly. (A lucky hit. Of a sort.)
Garrett Wollman
2017-03-04 00:01:56 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by James Nicoll
People are always posting Essential Lists of SF online so I thought I
would do a few of my own. This is the first one.
Hmmm. I've read three of these (own copies of two) and have heard of
one or perhaps two more. But I know that I'm pretty far out of the
mainstream even for this newsgroup.

What would your list of essential YA look like? I can think of a few
books I'd put on mine, but it would be very fantasy-heavy. (Hmmm, how
do you even categorize Norton's "Moonsinger" books? Magic *and*
spaceships!)

-GAWollman
--
Garrett A. Wollman | "Act to avoid constraining the future; if you can,
***@bimajority.org| act to remove constraint from the future. This is
Opinions not shared by| a thing you can do, are able to do, to do together."
my employers. | - Graydon Saunders, _A Succession of Bad Days_ (2015)
James Nicoll
2017-03-05 15:04:32 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Garrett Wollman
Post by James Nicoll
People are always posting Essential Lists of SF online so I thought I
would do a few of my own. This is the first one.
Hmmm. I've read three of these (own copies of two) and have heard of
one or perhaps two more. But I know that I'm pretty far out of the
mainstream even for this newsgroup.
What would your list of essential YA look like? I can think of a few
I will try to remember to make this next week's theme!
--
My reviews can be found at http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/
My Livejournal at http://www.livejournal.com/users/james_nicoll
My patreon is at https://www.patreon.com/jamesdnicoll
David Johnston
2017-03-05 20:05:53 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by James Nicoll
Post by Garrett Wollman
Post by James Nicoll
People are always posting Essential Lists of SF online so I thought I
would do a few of my own. This is the first one.
Hmmm. I've read three of these (own copies of two) and have heard of
one or perhaps two more. But I know that I'm pretty far out of the
mainstream even for this newsgroup.
What would your list of essential YA look like? I can think of a few
I will try to remember to make this next week's theme!
Mine would start with Goliath by Scott Westerfield. For once YA science
fiction that isn't dystopian or superheroes.
James Nicoll
2017-03-06 15:22:17 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by David Johnston
Post by James Nicoll
Post by Garrett Wollman
Post by James Nicoll
People are always posting Essential Lists of SF online so I thought I
would do a few of my own. This is the first one.
Hmmm. I've read three of these (own copies of two) and have heard of
one or perhaps two more. But I know that I'm pretty far out of the
mainstream even for this newsgroup.
What would your list of essential YA look like? I can think of a few
I will try to remember to make this next week's theme!
Mine would start with Goliath by Scott Westerfield. For once YA science
fiction that isn't dystopian or superheroes.
Mr. Larbalestier writes? How adorable. But will personal ambition lead
him to neglect his spousal duties?
--
My reviews can be found at http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/
My Livejournal at http://www.livejournal.com/users/james_nicoll
My patreon is at https://www.patreon.com/jamesdnicoll
Gene Wirchenko
2017-03-05 21:50:40 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On Sat, 4 Mar 2017 00:01:56 +0000 (UTC), ***@bimajority.org
(Garrett Wollman) wrote:

[snip]
Post by Garrett Wollman
What would your list of essential YA look like? I can think of a few
books I'd put on mine, but it would be very fantasy-heavy. (Hmmm, how
do you even categorize Norton's "Moonsinger" books? Magic *and*
spaceships!)
Fantasy in space? (Someone else can do that long A bit.)

Let them read sf, and never mind the YA.

"Melissa Scott, please pick up a white courtesy far-speaker."

Sincerely,

Gene Wirchenko
Chris Buckley
2017-03-04 01:00:44 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by James Nicoll
People are always posting Essential Lists of SF online so I thought I
would do a few of my own. This is the first one.
A Door Into Ocean by Joan Slonczewski
A Voice Out of Ramah by Lee Killough
A Wrinkle in Time by Madeleine L’Engle
Ancillary Justice by Ann Leckie
China Mountain Zhang by Maureen McHugh
Don't Bite the Sun by Tanith Lee
Dreamsnake by Vonda N. McIntyre
Frankenstein by Mary Shelly
Galactic Derelict by Andre Norton
Gate of Ivrel by C.J. Cherryh
Golden Witchbreed by Mary Gentle
Jirel of Joiry by C.L. Moore
Kindred by Octavia E. Butler
Ninefox Gambit by Yoon Ha Lee
The Dispossessed by Ursula K. Le Guin
The Female Man by Joanna Russ
The Many Colored Land by Julian May
The Next Continent by Issui Ogawa
The Snow Queen by Joan D. Vinge
Warm Worlds and Otherwise by James Tiptree, Jr.
I'm very curious as to what you (James) used as criteria for this. I
have 17 out of the 20 on my shelves (have other novels by Tiptree (a
short story collection seems out of place here), other novels of
killough, but have nothing of Ogawa).

However, in terms of importance and "essential" books, there's not
much overlap. I have a "favorite bookcase" with my view of what's important
to me - it has about 275 books on it, 68 by 29 different female authors,
and there are only 6 books in common with this list. That's quite
a number fewer than I would expect, so I suspect there is some other
criteria involved. I don't understand the inclusion of authors like
Killough and May to the exclusion of Lynn, Dean, McKillip, Kushner and
others that I expect would appeal to you.

Chris
Robert Woodward
2017-03-04 05:54:08 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by James Nicoll
People are always posting Essential Lists of SF online so I thought I
would do a few of my own. This is the first one.
A Door Into Ocean by Joan Slonczewski
A Voice Out of Ramah by Lee Killough
A Wrinkle in Time by Madeleine L'Engle
Ancillary Justice by Ann Leckie
China Mountain Zhang by Maureen McHugh
Don't Bite the Sun by Tanith Lee
Dreamsnake by Vonda N. McIntyre
Frankenstein by Mary Shelly
Galactic Derelict by Andre Norton
Gate of Ivrel by C.J. Cherryh
Golden Witchbreed by Mary Gentle
Jirel of Joiry by C.L. Moore
Kindred by Octavia E. Butler
Ninefox Gambit by Yoon Ha Lee
The Dispossessed by Ursula K. Le Guin
The Female Man by Joanna Russ
The Many Colored Land by Julian May
The Next Continent by Issui Ogawa
The Snow Queen by Joan D. Vinge
Warm Worlds and Otherwise by James Tiptree, Jr.
I have read 8 (I see that 19 titles are from inside the Anglosphere).
--
"We have advanced to new and surprising levels of bafflement."
Imperial Auditor Miles Vorkosigan describes progress in _Komarr_.
‹-----------------------------------------------------
Robert Woodward ***@drizzle.com
Robert Bannister
2017-03-05 01:35:26 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Robert Woodward
Post by James Nicoll
People are always posting Essential Lists of SF online so I thought I
would do a few of my own. This is the first one.
A Door Into Ocean by Joan Slonczewski
A Voice Out of Ramah by Lee Killough
A Wrinkle in Time by Madeleine L'Engle
Ancillary Justice by Ann Leckie
China Mountain Zhang by Maureen McHugh
Don't Bite the Sun by Tanith Lee
Dreamsnake by Vonda N. McIntyre
Frankenstein by Mary Shelly
Galactic Derelict by Andre Norton
Gate of Ivrel by C.J. Cherryh
Golden Witchbreed by Mary Gentle
Jirel of Joiry by C.L. Moore
Kindred by Octavia E. Butler
Ninefox Gambit by Yoon Ha Lee
The Dispossessed by Ursula K. Le Guin
The Female Man by Joanna Russ
The Many Colored Land by Julian May
The Next Continent by Issui Ogawa
The Snow Queen by Joan D. Vinge
Warm Worlds and Otherwise by James Tiptree, Jr.
I have read 8 (I see that 19 titles are from inside the Anglosphere).
Isn't it only natural that English-speakers would be more readily
attracted to authors with English-sounding names: Slonczewski, L'Engle,
Cherryh, Le Guin and such?
--
Robert B. born England a long time ago;
Western Australia since 1972
Quadibloc
2017-03-04 06:05:23 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by James Nicoll
Frankenstein by Mary Shelly
Owned and at least read partway...
Post by James Nicoll
Galactic Derelict by Andre Norton
May have read, had read several of her books.
Post by James Nicoll
Gate of Ivrel by C.J. Cherryh
Owned and enjoyed it.
Post by James Nicoll
The Dispossessed by Ursula K. Le Guin
Read this one at the library, forgot the title.

Thought I read a book in the same series as another on the list, but there was
only a coincidental similarity in titles. (The Door Into Fire by Diane Duane,
author of Star Trek novelizations.)

John Savard
h***@gmail.com
2017-03-04 09:29:27 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by James Nicoll
People are always posting Essential Lists of SF online so I thought I
would do a few of my own. This is the first one.
A Door Into Ocean by Joan Slonczewski
A Voice Out of Ramah by Lee Killough
A Wrinkle in Time by Madeleine L’Engle
Ancillary Justice by Ann Leckie
Have and read
Post by James Nicoll
China Mountain Zhang by Maureen McHugh
Have and read
Post by James Nicoll
Don't Bite the Sun by Tanith Lee
Dreamsnake by Vonda N. McIntyre
Have read
Post by James Nicoll
Frankenstein by Mary Shelly
Have and have read
Post by James Nicoll
Galactic Derelict by Andre Norton
Gate of Ivrel by C.J. Cherryh
Have and have read
Post by James Nicoll
Golden Witchbreed by Mary Gentle
Jirel of Joiry by C.L. Moore
Kindred by Octavia E. Butler
Ninefox Gambit by Yoon Ha Lee
The Dispossessed by Ursula K. Le Guin
The Female Man by Joanna Russ
The Many Colored Land by Julian May
Have read (can't recall whether I have it or my sister got it when she left home)
Post by James Nicoll
The Next Continent by Issui Ogawa
The Snow Queen by Joan D. Vinge
Warm Worlds and Otherwise by James Tiptree, Jr.
William Hyde
2017-03-05 21:37:19 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by James Nicoll
People are always posting Essential Lists of SF online so I thought I
would do a few of my own. This is the first one.
A Door Into Ocean by Joan Slonczewski
A Voice Out of Ramah by Lee Killough
Not read. I'll get on it.
Post by James Nicoll
A Wrinkle in Time by Madeleine L’Engle
A book I truly dislike. I swear I dislike the book for itself, and have disassociated the book from being tasked to appear in a play based on it.
Post by James Nicoll
Ancillary Justice by Ann Leckie
China Mountain Zhang by Maureen McHugh
Not read, etc.
Post by James Nicoll
Don't Bite the Sun by Tanith Lee
I've been closely following your year of Tanith Lee to see if it would cure my serious dislike of her works. Not so far. The above is one I have not tried to read, though.
Post by James Nicoll
Dreamsnake by Vonda N. McIntyre
Frankenstein by Mary Shelly
Yes to both.
Post by James Nicoll
Galactic Derelict by Andre Norton
Gate of Ivrel by C.J. Cherryh
Also yes to both, but the former is best read about age eleven. At least the first time.
Post by James Nicoll
Golden Witchbreed by Mary Gentle
*hangs head in shame*. In my defense, when this came out I had never heard of the author, and the book looked like more extruded fantasy product.
Post by James Nicoll
Jirel of Joiry by C.L. Moore
Yes.
Post by James Nicoll
Kindred by Octavia E. Butler
HHIS
Post by James Nicoll
Ninefox Gambit by Yoon Ha Lee
Not read.
Post by James Nicoll
The Dispossessed by Ursula K. Le Guin
Agree, with bells on.
Post by James Nicoll
The Female Man by Joanna Russ
Meh. I'd prefer "And Chaos Died" if I could figure out the plot, or anything, so perhaps an Alix book instead.
Post by James Nicoll
The Many Colored Land by Julian May
Really liked it the first time I read it. Like it less and less and less as time goes on. And the sequels seem to me to go from OK to hideous.
Post by James Nicoll
The Next Continent by Issui Ogawa
Not read.
Post by James Nicoll
The Snow Queen by Joan D. Vinge
Yes.
Post by James Nicoll
Warm Worlds and Otherwise by James Tiptree, Jr.
Yes! In fact time for a reread.


William Hyde
David DeLaney
2017-03-06 11:44:17 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by James Nicoll
People are always posting Essential Lists of SF online so I thought I
would do a few of my own. This is the first one.
A Door Into Ocean by Joan Slonczewski
A Voice Out of Ramah by Lee Killough
A Wrinkle in Time by Madeleine L???Engle
Ancillary Justice by Ann Leckie
China Mountain Zhang by Maureen McHugh
Don't Bite the Sun by Tanith Lee
Dreamsnake by Vonda N. McIntyre
Frankenstein by Mary Shelly
Galactic Derelict by Andre Norton
Gate of Ivrel by C.J. Cherryh
Golden Witchbreed by Mary Gentle
Jirel of Joiry by C.L. Moore
Kindred by Octavia E. Butler
Ninefox Gambit by Yoon Ha Lee
The Dispossessed by Ursula K. Le Guin
The Female Man by Joanna Russ
The Many Colored Land by Julian May
The Next Continent by Issui Ogawa
The Snow Queen by Joan D. Vinge
Warm Worlds and Otherwise by James Tiptree, Jr.
I thought I had detected A Pattern but then I got to the last one.

Dave, sssssh
--
\/David DeLaney posting thru EarthLink - "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
gatekeeper.vic.com/~dbd - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.
Steve Coltrin
2017-03-06 21:22:34 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
begin fnord
Post by James Nicoll
Ancillary Justice by Ann Leckie
The Many Colored Land by Julian May
Gate of Ivrel by C.J. Cherryh
Of course.
Post by James Nicoll
Kindred by Octavia E. Butler
Don't own but otherwise yeah. I might have nominated _Wild Seed_ instead.
Post by James Nicoll
Golden Witchbreed by Mary Gentle
Read, liked, need to get around to re-reading and then reading
_Ancient Light_, which is on my shelf guilting me.
Post by James Nicoll
China Mountain Zhang by Maureen McHugh
Read, don't really remember. Isn't it on that Hugo nominees CD-ROM that
I have around somewhere?
Post by James Nicoll
Galactic Derelict by Andre Norton
Only Nortons I've read are the first few Witch World books, and _Voorloper_.
Post by James Nicoll
Frankenstein by Mary Shelly
Read for an elective class I ended up not benefiting from, much like
the book itself.
Post by James Nicoll
Dreamsnake by Vonda N. McIntyre
The Dispossessed by Ursula K. Le Guin
Have copy on shelf guilting me.
Post by James Nicoll
The Female Man by Joanna Russ
Have copy of _We Who Are About To..._ on shelf guilting me.
Post by James Nicoll
The Snow Queen by Joan D. Vinge
Read, do not own.
Post by James Nicoll
Warm Worlds and Otherwise by James Tiptree, Jr.
I feel bad about not yet having read any Tiptree.
Post by James Nicoll
A Door Into Ocean by Joan Slonczewski
A Voice Out of Ramah by Lee Killough
Don't Bite the Sun by Tanith Lee
Ninefox Gambit by Yoon Ha Lee
Aware of, may read someday.
Post by James Nicoll
Jirel of Joiry by C.L. Moore
No, but http://specgram.com/CXLVII.1/10.katz.tribesman.html is part of
my repertoire.
Post by James Nicoll
A Wrinkle in Time by Madeleine LmojibakeEngle
Read the first two with rapidly dwindling enjoyment; threw the third
against the wall once I'd had it with being marginalized. I will not
have her books in my house.
Post by James Nicoll
The Next Continent by Issui Ogawa
Not on my radar.
--
Steve Coltrin ***@omcl.org Google Groups killfiled here
"A group known as the League of Human Dignity helped arrange for Deuel
to be driven to a local livestock scale, where he could be weighed."
- Associated Press
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