Discussion:
Common morals/subtexts
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m***@sky.com
2018-03-02 19:31:41 UTC
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The blog "Marginal Revolution" pointed me at https://www.overcomingbias.com/2018/03/beware-covert-war-morality-tales.html, which is to be parsed as Beware (covert war) morality tales - that is, spy stories and similar. He seems to me somewhat confused between a recent worrying trend and an age-old pattern, but he seems to think that too many stories today are promoting subversive or disruptive actions. I think it mostly caught my eye because of a passage in "Challenges of the Deeps" which lays out a much more attractive subtext:

"Like many other villains in stories we've all read, the thing that really gave us a chance against him was that there were more of us than there were of him, and we were willing to work together and trust each other."

I don't know how much SF and comic book plots fit that pattern, but it seems a reasonably positive one. I once went through a lot of the Harry Potter books trying to work out what Scorpius Malfoy might be advised based on a history of Wizarding that includes Harry Potter. What I came up with was a recipe for difficult times:

1) Do whatever it takes to survive
2) Never stop looking for an opportunity
3) When you spot one, grab it with both hands and take it as far as you possibly can

Any comments on these or other patterns?
Robert Carnegie
2018-03-02 21:44:43 UTC
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On Friday, 2 March 2018 19:31:50 UTC, ***@sky.com wrote:
> The blog "Marginal Revolution" pointed me at https://www.overcomingbias.com/2018/03/beware-covert-war-morality-tales.html, which is to be parsed as Beware (covert war) morality tales - that is, spy stories and similar. He seems to me somewhat confused between a recent worrying trend and an age-old pattern, but he seems to think that too many stories today are promoting subversive or disruptive actions. I think it mostly caught my eye because of a passage in "Challenges of the Deeps" which lays out a much more attractive subtext:
>
> "Like many other villains in stories we've all read, the thing that really gave us a chance against him was that there were more of us than there were of him, and we were willing to work together and trust each other."
>
> I don't know how much SF and comic book plots fit that pattern, but it seems a reasonably positive one. I once went through a lot of the Harry Potter books trying to work out what Scorpius Malfoy might be advised based on a history of Wizarding that includes Harry Potter. What I came up with was a recipe for difficult times:
>
> 1) Do whatever it takes to survive
> 2) Never stop looking for an opportunity
> 3) When you spot one, grab it with both hands and take it as far as you possibly can
>
> Any comments on these or other patterns?

<https://quoteinvestigator.com/2011/11/07/rough-men/>
A misattributed 'quote' -
"People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because
rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf"
The inquiry embraces both the incivility of soldiers, and
outright wickedness - by normal standards - of such as
James Bond.

Of course, working together and trusting each other
is fag commie talk. :-) But also included in some
versions of religion; others are a competition in
piety. For instance if only 144,000 people go to heaven
in the end but the church is already larger than that...

I think Slytherin House has an ethos stated early on -
"perhaps in Slytherin - You'll make your real friends -
Those cunning folk use any means - To achieve their ends."
That, and its founder's doctrine of racial purity,
all-magical families. But are these real friends
or are they basically selfish and just cooperating
when it's convenient?

For the author's purpose, the Slytherins provide
convenient antagonists living next door to the heroes;
there doesn't have to be a deeper reason than that.

Another reading is that Hogwarts exists as an awkward
compromise between leading teachers in the old days
with quite different ideas of a proper education,
strangely living on in the form of a talking hat -
this is canonical. The hat may be more than the sum
of its parts, and it serves the school as a whole.

And it serves each individual student by performing
its principal role, of choosing their House - which
I want to think is not a judgement of their character
at age 11, but a consideration of what traits may be
encouraged in the child either because they do lean
that way already, or because they don't and should.
Considering Gryffindor forming its students as heroic
types - or troublemakers - points are scored in the
first book, and later, by characters who didn't go in
as natural heroes or troublemaker. They learned it.
And the school's games champion in book four didn't
need to be led in that direction - it was in him already -
so he was Sorted into Hufflepuff. But I have more trouble
seeing the good in Slytherin House. But - should there
be any?
Elaine T
2018-03-02 23:06:46 UTC
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snip

>>
>> I don't know how much SF and comic book plots fit that pattern, but it seems a reasonably positive one. I once went through a lot of the Harry Potter books trying to work out what Scorpius Malfoy might be advised based on a history of Wizarding that includes Harry Potter. What I came up with was a recipe for difficult times:
>>
>> 1) Do whatever it takes to survive
>> 2) Never stop looking for an opportunity
>> 3) When you spot one, grab it with both hands and take it as far as you possibly can

snip

>>
>
>I think Slytherin House has an ethos stated early on -
>"perhaps in Slytherin - You'll make your real friends -
>Those cunning folk use any means - To achieve their ends."
>That, and its founder's doctrine of racial purity,
>all-magical families. But are these real friends
>or are they basically selfish and just cooperating
>when it's convenient?

snip

>so he was Sorted into Hufflepuff. But I have more trouble
>seeing the good in Slytherin House. But - should there
>be any?



Slughorn is a reasonably good person who seems to have been Slytherin.
I think readers are supposed to see him as what Slytherins could be -
maybe should be - but due to mismanagement (I have a very low opinion
of the current staff and administration of the place) they've been
encouraged and groomed to be [scary voice] eevviilll.
Dorothy J Heydt
2018-03-03 00:15:45 UTC
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In article <29076d97-fa57-448d-a301-***@googlegroups.com>,
Robert Carnegie <***@excite.com> wrote:
>On Friday, 2 March 2018 19:31:50 UTC, ***@sky.com wrote:
>> The blog "Marginal Revolution" pointed me at
>https://www.overcomingbias.com/2018/03/beware-covert-war-morality-tales.html,
>which is to be parsed as Beware (covert war) morality tales - that is,
>spy stories and similar. He seems to me somewhat confused between a
>recent worrying trend and an age-old pattern, but he seems to think that
>too many stories today are promoting subversive or disruptive actions. I
>think it mostly caught my eye because of a passage in "Challenges of the
>Deeps" which lays out a much more attractive subtext:
>>
>> "Like many other villains in stories we've all read, the thing that
>really gave us a chance against him was that there were more of us than
>there were of him, and we were willing to work together and trust each
>other."
>>
>> I don't know how much SF and comic book plots fit that pattern, but it
>seems a reasonably positive one. I once went through a lot of the Harry
>Potter books trying to work out what Scorpius Malfoy might be advised
>based on a history of Wizarding that includes Harry Potter. What I came
>up with was a recipe for difficult times:
>>
>> 1) Do whatever it takes to survive
>> 2) Never stop looking for an opportunity
>> 3) When you spot one, grab it with both hands and take it as far as
>you possibly can
>>
>> Any comments on these or other patterns?
>
><https://quoteinvestigator.com/2011/11/07/rough-men/>
>A misattributed 'quote' -
>"People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because
>rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf"
>The inquiry embraces both the incivility of soldiers, and
>outright wickedness - by normal standards - of such as
>James Bond.
>
>Of course, working together and trusting each other
>is fag commie talk. :-) But also included in some
>versions of religion; others are a competition in
>piety. For instance if only 144,000 people go to heaven
>in the end but the church is already larger than that...
>
>I think Slytherin House has an ethos stated early on -
>"perhaps in Slytherin - You'll make your real friends -
>Those cunning folk use any means - To achieve their ends."
>That, and its founder's doctrine of racial purity,
>all-magical families. But are these real friends
>or are they basically selfish and just cooperating
>when it's convenient?
>
>For the author's purpose, the Slytherins provide
>convenient antagonists living next door to the heroes;
>there doesn't have to be a deeper reason than that.

I've always thought the four wizards who founded the four schools
programmed the Hat to select for each of their schools somebody
as near to the original wizard's personality as can be found.
>

--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Robert Carnegie
2018-03-04 15:24:13 UTC
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On Saturday, 3 March 2018 00:45:05 UTC, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
> In article <29076d97-fa57-448d-a301-***@googlegroups.com>,
> Robert Carnegie <***@excite.com> wrote:
> >On Friday, 2 March 2018 19:31:50 UTC, ***@sky.com wrote:
> >> The blog "Marginal Revolution" pointed me at
> >https://www.overcomingbias.com/2018/03/beware-covert-war-morality-tales.html,
> >which is to be parsed as Beware (covert war) morality tales - that is,
> >spy stories and similar. He seems to me somewhat confused between a
> >recent worrying trend and an age-old pattern, but he seems to think that
> >too many stories today are promoting subversive or disruptive actions. I
> >think it mostly caught my eye because of a passage in "Challenges of the
> >Deeps" which lays out a much more attractive subtext:
> >>
> >> "Like many other villains in stories we've all read, the thing that
> >really gave us a chance against him was that there were more of us than
> >there were of him, and we were willing to work together and trust each
> >other."
> >>
> >> I don't know how much SF and comic book plots fit that pattern, but it
> >seems a reasonably positive one. I once went through a lot of the Harry
> >Potter books trying to work out what Scorpius Malfoy might be advised
> >based on a history of Wizarding that includes Harry Potter. What I came
> >up with was a recipe for difficult times:
> >>
> >> 1) Do whatever it takes to survive
> >> 2) Never stop looking for an opportunity
> >> 3) When you spot one, grab it with both hands and take it as far as
> >you possibly can
> >>
> >> Any comments on these or other patterns?
> >
> ><https://quoteinvestigator.com/2011/11/07/rough-men/>
> >A misattributed 'quote' -
> >"People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because
> >rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf"
> >The inquiry embraces both the incivility of soldiers, and
> >outright wickedness - by normal standards - of such as
> >James Bond.
> >
> >Of course, working together and trusting each other
> >is fag commie talk. :-) But also included in some
> >versions of religion; others are a competition in
> >piety. For instance if only 144,000 people go to heaven
> >in the end but the church is already larger than that...
> >
> >I think Slytherin House has an ethos stated early on -
> >"perhaps in Slytherin - You'll make your real friends -
> >Those cunning folk use any means - To achieve their ends."
> >That, and its founder's doctrine of racial purity,
> >all-magical families. But are these real friends
> >or are they basically selfish and just cooperating
> >when it's convenient?
> >
> >For the author's purpose, the Slytherins provide
> >convenient antagonists living next door to the heroes;
> >there doesn't have to be a deeper reason than that.
>
> I've always thought the four wizards who founded the four schools
> programmed the Hat to select for each of their schools somebody
> as near to the original wizard's personality as can be found.

But I don't think the students are that - before the programming
of course. :-) I think Neville, for instance, was made Gryffindor
by being sorted into Gryffindor. But maybe I'm unfair to him.
And yet I think that's what it's /for/.
J. Clarke
2018-03-03 03:27:31 UTC
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On Fri, 2 Mar 2018 13:44:43 -0800 (PST), Robert Carnegie
<***@excite.com> wrote:

>On Friday, 2 March 2018 19:31:50 UTC, ***@sky.com wrote:
>> The blog "Marginal Revolution" pointed me at https://www.overcomingbias.com/2018/03/beware-covert-war-morality-tales.html, which is to be parsed as Beware (covert war) morality tales - that is, spy stories and similar. He seems to me somewhat confused between a recent worrying trend and an age-old pattern, but he seems to think that too many stories today are promoting subversive or disruptive actions. I think it mostly caught my eye because of a passage in "Challenges of the Deeps" which lays out a much more attractive subtext:
>>
>> "Like many other villains in stories we've all read, the thing that really gave us a chance against him was that there were more of us than there were of him, and we were willing to work together and trust each other."
>>
>> I don't know how much SF and comic book plots fit that pattern, but it seems a reasonably positive one. I once went through a lot of the Harry Potter books trying to work out what Scorpius Malfoy might be advised based on a history of Wizarding that includes Harry Potter. What I came up with was a recipe for difficult times:
>>
>> 1) Do whatever it takes to survive
>> 2) Never stop looking for an opportunity
>> 3) When you spot one, grab it with both hands and take it as far as you possibly can
>>
>> Any comments on these or other patterns?
>
><https://quoteinvestigator.com/2011/11/07/rough-men/>
>A misattributed 'quote' -
>"People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because
>rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf"
>The inquiry embraces both the incivility of soldiers, and
>outright wickedness - by normal standards - of such as
>James Bond.
>
>Of course, working together and trusting each other
>is fag commie talk. :-) But also included in some
>versions of religion; others are a competition in
>piety. For instance if only 144,000 people go to heaven
>in the end but the church is already larger than that...

Also included in something called "team sports" and something called
"the military".

The commie pinko idea promulgated by the commie pinko schoolteachers
and university professors is the insidious one--"do your own work or
come to the teacher, don't help each other".
Michael F. Stemper
2018-03-03 22:00:27 UTC
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On 2018-03-02 21:27, J. Clarke wrote:
> On Fri, 2 Mar 2018 13:44:43 -0800 (PST), Robert Carnegie

>> Of course, working together and trusting each other
>> is fag commie talk. :-) But also included in some
>> versions of religion; others are a competition in
>> piety. For instance if only 144,000 people go to heaven
>> in the end but the church is already larger than that...
>
> Also included in something called "team sports" and something called
> "the military".
>
> The commie pinko idea promulgated by the commie pinko schoolteachers
> and university professors is the insidious one--"do your own work or
> come to the teacher, don't help each other".

That's certainly how it was in my undergrad days. However, something has
changed in the intervening four decades.

I'm back in school. Every class so far, the professor or instructor has
included in the first day's administrivia words along the lines of:

You can help each other if you want, but if you do so, say on your
homework who helped you and on which parts. What you hand in must be
your own product.

--
Michael F. Stemper
Psalm 82:1-4
J. Clarke
2018-03-03 22:36:33 UTC
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On Sat, 3 Mar 2018 16:00:27 -0600, "Michael F. Stemper"
<***@gmail.com> wrote:

>On 2018-03-02 21:27, J. Clarke wrote:
>> On Fri, 2 Mar 2018 13:44:43 -0800 (PST), Robert Carnegie
>
>>> Of course, working together and trusting each other
>>> is fag commie talk. :-) But also included in some
>>> versions of religion; others are a competition in
>>> piety. For instance if only 144,000 people go to heaven
>>> in the end but the church is already larger than that...
>>
>> Also included in something called "team sports" and something called
>> "the military".
>>
>> The commie pinko idea promulgated by the commie pinko schoolteachers
>> and university professors is the insidious one--"do your own work or
>> come to the teacher, don't help each other".
>
>That's certainly how it was in my undergrad days. However, something has
>changed in the intervening four decades.
>
>I'm back in school. Every class so far, the professor or instructor has
>included in the first day's administrivia words along the lines of:
>
> You can help each other if you want, but if you do so, say on your
> homework who helped you and on which parts. What you hand in must be
> your own product.

Maybe the idiots are starting to grow up.

At work nobody in management cares if you "did your own work", just
that the work got done. If you aren't carrying your part of the load
though your co-workers can get upset.
Michael F. Stemper
2018-03-04 00:32:27 UTC
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On 2018-03-03 16:36, J. Clarke wrote:
> On Sat, 3 Mar 2018 16:00:27 -0600, "Michael F. Stemper"
> <***@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On 2018-03-02 21:27, J. Clarke wrote:

>>> The commie pinko idea promulgated by the commie pinko schoolteachers
>>> and university professors is the insidious one--"do your own work or
>>> come to the teacher, don't help each other".
>>
>> That's certainly how it was in my undergrad days. However, something has
>> changed in the intervening four decades.
>>
>> I'm back in school. Every class so far, the professor or instructor has
>> included in the first day's administrivia words along the lines of:
>>
>> You can help each other if you want, but if you do so, say on your
>> homework who helped you and on which parts. What you hand in must be
>> your own product.
>
> Maybe the idiots are starting to grow up.
>
> At work nobody in management cares if you "did your own work", just
> that the work got done.

And a couple of the professors/instructors that I've had specifically
said, "after all, you're expected to work together in the workplace."

--
Michael F. Stemper
Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend.
Inside of a dog, it's too dark to read.
Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)
2018-03-04 06:30:45 UTC
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On 3/3/18 5:36 PM, J. Clarke wrote:
> On Sat, 3 Mar 2018 16:00:27 -0600, "Michael F. Stemper"
> <***@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On 2018-03-02 21:27, J. Clarke wrote:
>>> On Fri, 2 Mar 2018 13:44:43 -0800 (PST), Robert Carnegie
>>
>>>> Of course, working together and trusting each other
>>>> is fag commie talk. :-) But also included in some
>>>> versions of religion; others are a competition in
>>>> piety. For instance if only 144,000 people go to heaven
>>>> in the end but the church is already larger than that...
>>>
>>> Also included in something called "team sports" and something called
>>> "the military".
>>>
>>> The commie pinko idea promulgated by the commie pinko schoolteachers
>>> and university professors is the insidious one--"do your own work or
>>> come to the teacher, don't help each other".
>>
>> That's certainly how it was in my undergrad days. However, something has
>> changed in the intervening four decades.
>>
>> I'm back in school. Every class so far, the professor or instructor has
>> included in the first day's administrivia words along the lines of:
>>
>> You can help each other if you want, but if you do so, say on your
>> homework who helped you and on which parts. What you hand in must be
>> your own product.
>
> Maybe the idiots are starting to grow up.
>
> At work nobody in management cares if you "did your own work", just
> that the work got done.

At work no one is training you so that you can go out and "get the work
done" regardless of whether you HAVE functional partners or not. There
is a huge difference between education and "doing your work" in an
employment field. In education, the idea is to see if *each individual
student* has learned the lessons and is able to apply them properly, not
whether they can find someone in the class to help them do so. Yes, it's
fine for them to talk together and so on, but if the assignment is
"write a 25 page paper about {topic}", it doesn't give me, as an
instructor, much insight to Joe Student's capabilities in the matter if
five people work on the paper. At the least it gets really hard to
untangle, even if they tell me who did what -- especially since I then
have to decide how much I BELIEVE of what they tell me. Did all five of
them really do what they say, or did two of them do most of the work and
just distribute the credit more evenly so all five of them did well?



If you aren't carrying your part of the load
> though your co-workers can get upset.
>


--
Sea Wasp
/^\
;;;
Website: http://www.grandcentralarena.com Blog:
http://seawasp.dreamwidth.org
J. Clarke
2018-03-04 08:16:42 UTC
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On Sun, 4 Mar 2018 01:30:45 -0500, "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)"
<***@sgeinc.invalid.com> wrote:

>On 3/3/18 5:36 PM, J. Clarke wrote:
>> On Sat, 3 Mar 2018 16:00:27 -0600, "Michael F. Stemper"
>> <***@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On 2018-03-02 21:27, J. Clarke wrote:
>>>> On Fri, 2 Mar 2018 13:44:43 -0800 (PST), Robert Carnegie
>>>
>>>>> Of course, working together and trusting each other
>>>>> is fag commie talk. :-) But also included in some
>>>>> versions of religion; others are a competition in
>>>>> piety. For instance if only 144,000 people go to heaven
>>>>> in the end but the church is already larger than that...
>>>>
>>>> Also included in something called "team sports" and something called
>>>> "the military".
>>>>
>>>> The commie pinko idea promulgated by the commie pinko schoolteachers
>>>> and university professors is the insidious one--"do your own work or
>>>> come to the teacher, don't help each other".
>>>
>>> That's certainly how it was in my undergrad days. However, something has
>>> changed in the intervening four decades.
>>>
>>> I'm back in school. Every class so far, the professor or instructor has
>>> included in the first day's administrivia words along the lines of:
>>>
>>> You can help each other if you want, but if you do so, say on your
>>> homework who helped you and on which parts. What you hand in must be
>>> your own product.
>>
>> Maybe the idiots are starting to grow up.
>>
>> At work nobody in management cares if you "did your own work", just
>> that the work got done.
>
> At work no one is training you so that you can go out and "get the work
>done" regardless of whether you HAVE functional partners or not.

They aren't training you to do that in school either. They are
teaching a bunch of mostly irrelevant bullshit that they, having never
actually held jobs in their entire lives, _think_ is important.

I learned more in my first month on the job than I did in 8 years of
school.

>There
>is a huge difference between education and "doing your work" in an
>employment field.

Yes, in the one case you have to sit in a classroom and regurgitate
textbook answers on demand. In the other you have to actually make
things happen.

>In education, the idea is to see if *each individual
>student* has learned the lessons and is able to apply them properly, not
>whether they can find someone in the class to help them do so.

Whereas at work the most important skill one can have is knowing who
to ask. Of course if you've only worked at tiny little companies with
tiny little products that one person can understand in their entirety
with a few minutes effort, you might not be able to understand the
importance of that skill. And if you are some teacher who has never
had a job, well . . .

>Yes, it's
>fine for them to talk together and so on, but if the assignment is
>"write a 25 page paper about {topic}", it doesn't give me, as an
>instructor, much insight to Joe Student's capabilities in the matter if
>five people work on the paper.

If the assignment is "write a 25 page paper on x topic" the class is
likely of little relevance anyway.

>At the least it gets really hard to
>untangle, even if they tell me who did what -- especially since I then
>have to decide how much I BELIEVE of what they tell me. Did all five of
>them really do what they say, or did two of them do most of the work and
>just distribute the credit more evenly so all five of them did well?

What subject do you teach?
Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)
2018-03-06 03:11:26 UTC
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On 3/4/18 3:16 AM, J. Clarke wrote:
> On Sun, 4 Mar 2018 01:30:45 -0500, "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)"
> <***@sgeinc.invalid.com> wrote:
>
>> On 3/3/18 5:36 PM, J. Clarke wrote:
>>> On Sat, 3 Mar 2018 16:00:27 -0600, "Michael F. Stemper"
>>> <***@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 2018-03-02 21:27, J. Clarke wrote:
>>>>> On Fri, 2 Mar 2018 13:44:43 -0800 (PST), Robert Carnegie
>>>>
>>>>>> Of course, working together and trusting each other
>>>>>> is fag commie talk. :-) But also included in some
>>>>>> versions of religion; others are a competition in
>>>>>> piety. For instance if only 144,000 people go to heaven
>>>>>> in the end but the church is already larger than that...
>>>>>
>>>>> Also included in something called "team sports" and something called
>>>>> "the military".
>>>>>
>>>>> The commie pinko idea promulgated by the commie pinko schoolteachers
>>>>> and university professors is the insidious one--"do your own work or
>>>>> come to the teacher, don't help each other".
>>>>
>>>> That's certainly how it was in my undergrad days. However, something has
>>>> changed in the intervening four decades.
>>>>
>>>> I'm back in school. Every class so far, the professor or instructor has
>>>> included in the first day's administrivia words along the lines of:
>>>>
>>>> You can help each other if you want, but if you do so, say on your
>>>> homework who helped you and on which parts. What you hand in must be
>>>> your own product.
>>>
>>> Maybe the idiots are starting to grow up.
>>>
>>> At work nobody in management cares if you "did your own work", just
>>> that the work got done.
>>
>> At work no one is training you so that you can go out and "get the work
>> done" regardless of whether you HAVE functional partners or not.
>
> They aren't training you to do that in school either. They are
> teaching a bunch of mostly irrelevant bullshit that they, having never
> actually held jobs in their entire lives, _think_ is important.
>
> I learned more in my first month on the job than I did in 8 years of
> school.

For some people it's like that. For others, it's not. I didn't learn
too much from any job I had until I was in my 40s. Admittedly, I didn't
learn much from school either, but that's because I was freakishly good
at reading, remembering, and test-taking, and also really good most of
the time at convincing teachers to take MY view of things.

A lot of other people actually did learn stuff in school.

>
>> There
>> is a huge difference between education and "doing your work" in an
>> employment field.
>
> Yes, in the one case you have to sit in a classroom and regurgitate
> textbook answers on demand. In the other you have to actually make
> things happen.

If you can't even remember basic facts and procedures, you're not going
to be able to do work, either. True, I wish schools taught some
different things, and taught some things differently, but it's not the
useless setup you seem to want it to be. Stats show that people who
DON'T get schooling generally do more poorly. (naturally there are
outliers that don't fit the curve, but on average, having more education
helps)

>
>> In education, the idea is to see if *each individual
>> student* has learned the lessons and is able to apply them properly, not
>> whether they can find someone in the class to help them do so.
>
> Whereas at work the most important skill one can have is knowing who
> to ask.

No. That's *AN* important skill. But depending on your particular job,
the MOST important skill could be one of hundreds of others. The most
important skill *I* have had in my professional career was being able to
write clearly, coherently, regularly, and productively. The second most
important skill (by a hair) was and is the ability to read quickly,
extract meaning accurately from what I read, and apply what I learn from
what I read to the particular problem at hand.

Of course if you've only worked at tiny little companies with
> tiny little products that one person can understand in their entirety
> with a few minutes effort, you might not be able to understand the
> importance of that skill. And if you are some teacher who has never
> had a job, well . . .

If you think that "being a teacher" is "never had a job", you have
absolutely no clue. Teachers have a very demanding job which most people
who sneer at them probably couldn't do.

>
>> Yes, it's
>> fine for them to talk together and so on, but if the assignment is
>> "write a 25 page paper about {topic}", it doesn't give me, as an
>> instructor, much insight to Joe Student's capabilities in the matter if
>> five people work on the paper.
>
> If the assignment is "write a 25 page paper on x topic" the class is
> likely of little relevance anyway.

You're not going to graduate from any decent school without doing some
research papers on SOMETHING, especially not in a STEM field.

>
>> At the least it gets really hard to
>> untangle, even if they tell me who did what -- especially since I then
>> have to decide how much I BELIEVE of what they tell me. Did all five of
>> them really do what they say, or did two of them do most of the work and
>> just distribute the credit more evenly so all five of them did well?
>
> What subject do you teach?
>

I don't; it was an example. My parents were both teachers, though, and
so are people of my acquaintance. I spent many years not just in the
public school system, but also in multiple universities.



--
Sea Wasp
/^\
;;;
Website: http://www.grandcentralarena.com Blog:
http://seawasp.dreamwidth.org
J. Clarke
2018-03-06 11:52:56 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On Mon, 5 Mar 2018 22:11:26 -0500, "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)"
<***@sgeinc.invalid.com> wrote:

>On 3/4/18 3:16 AM, J. Clarke wrote:
>> On Sun, 4 Mar 2018 01:30:45 -0500, "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)"
>> <***@sgeinc.invalid.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On 3/3/18 5:36 PM, J. Clarke wrote:
>>>> On Sat, 3 Mar 2018 16:00:27 -0600, "Michael F. Stemper"
>>>> <***@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 2018-03-02 21:27, J. Clarke wrote:
>>>>>> On Fri, 2 Mar 2018 13:44:43 -0800 (PST), Robert Carnegie
>>>>>
>>>>>>> Of course, working together and trusting each other
>>>>>>> is fag commie talk. :-) But also included in some
>>>>>>> versions of religion; others are a competition in
>>>>>>> piety. For instance if only 144,000 people go to heaven
>>>>>>> in the end but the church is already larger than that...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Also included in something called "team sports" and something called
>>>>>> "the military".
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The commie pinko idea promulgated by the commie pinko schoolteachers
>>>>>> and university professors is the insidious one--"do your own work or
>>>>>> come to the teacher, don't help each other".
>>>>>
>>>>> That's certainly how it was in my undergrad days. However, something has
>>>>> changed in the intervening four decades.
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm back in school. Every class so far, the professor or instructor has
>>>>> included in the first day's administrivia words along the lines of:
>>>>>
>>>>> You can help each other if you want, but if you do so, say on your
>>>>> homework who helped you and on which parts. What you hand in must be
>>>>> your own product.
>>>>
>>>> Maybe the idiots are starting to grow up.
>>>>
>>>> At work nobody in management cares if you "did your own work", just
>>>> that the work got done.
>>>
>>> At work no one is training you so that you can go out and "get the work
>>> done" regardless of whether you HAVE functional partners or not.
>>
>> They aren't training you to do that in school either. They are
>> teaching a bunch of mostly irrelevant bullshit that they, having never
>> actually held jobs in their entire lives, _think_ is important.
>>
>> I learned more in my first month on the job than I did in 8 years of
>> school.
>
> For some people it's like that. For others, it's not. I didn't learn
>too much from any job I had until I was in my 40s. Admittedly, I didn't
>learn much from school either, but that's because I was freakishly good
>at reading, remembering, and test-taking, and also really good most of
>the time at convincing teachers to take MY view of things.

What was your first job? What did you do until you were 40? If you
didn't have work that made you learn new things I pity you.

> A lot of other people actually did learn stuff in school.
>
>>
>>> There
>>> is a huge difference between education and "doing your work" in an
>>> employment field.
>>
>> Yes, in the one case you have to sit in a classroom and regurgitate
>> textbook answers on demand. In the other you have to actually make
>> things happen.
>
> If you can't even remember basic facts and procedures, you're not going
>to be able to do work, either.

School didn't teach me much in the way of "basic facts and procedures"
that I have actually used anywhere. Some of what I learned 40 years
ago would be useful to me now in my new career but I have forgotten
most of it.

>True, I wish schools taught some
>different things, and taught some things differently, but it's not the
>useless setup you seem to want it to be.

I don't _want_ it to be useless, I just find it so.

>Stats show that people who
>DON'T get schooling generally do more poorly. (naturally there are
>outliers that don't fit the curve, but on average, having more education
>helps)

There are many occupations for which a piece of paper is required by
the employer. That doesn't mean that the skills associated with that
piece of paper are necessarily relevant to the job.

>>> In education, the idea is to see if *each individual
>>> student* has learned the lessons and is able to apply them properly, not
>>> whether they can find someone in the class to help them do so.
>>
>> Whereas at work the most important skill one can have is knowing who
>> to ask.
>
> No. That's *AN* important skill. But depending on your particular job,
>the MOST important skill could be one of hundreds of others. The most
>important skill *I* have had in my professional career was being able to
>write clearly, coherently, regularly, and productively. The second most
>important skill (by a hair) was and is the ability to read quickly,
>extract meaning accurately from what I read, and apply what I learn from
>what I read to the particular problem at hand.

So what do you do for a living?

> Of course if you've only worked at tiny little companies with
>> tiny little products that one person can understand in their entirety
>> with a few minutes effort, you might not be able to understand the
>> importance of that skill. And if you are some teacher who has never
>> had a job, well . . .
>
> If you think that "being a teacher" is "never had a job", you have
>absolutely no clue. Teachers have a very demanding job which most people
>who sneer at them probably couldn't do.

I'm sorry, but nothing one does in a classroom is a "job" in my
opinion. I have taught at several levels, been paid for it, I agree
that there is a certain amount of effort involved, but compared to the
kind of work where you have a concrete result to produce at the end of
the day, it is not the same as working in a business.

>>> Yes, it's
>>> fine for them to talk together and so on, but if the assignment is
>>> "write a 25 page paper about {topic}", it doesn't give me, as an
>>> instructor, much insight to Joe Student's capabilities in the matter if
>>> five people work on the paper.
>>
>> If the assignment is "write a 25 page paper on x topic" the class is
>> likely of little relevance anyway.
>
> You're not going to graduate from any decent school without doing some
>research papers on SOMETHING, especially not in a STEM field.

I believe that Georgia Tech qualfies as "any decent school", and we
were not required to write papers. Writing papers is what the fuzzy
studies people do. Engineers make stuff, we don't write about making
stuff.

>>> At the least it gets really hard to
>>> untangle, even if they tell me who did what -- especially since I then
>>> have to decide how much I BELIEVE of what they tell me. Did all five of
>>> them really do what they say, or did two of them do most of the work and
>>> just distribute the credit more evenly so all five of them did well?
>>
>> What subject do you teach?
>>
>
> I don't; it was an example. My parents were both teachers, though, and
>so are people of my acquaintance. I spent many years not just in the
>public school system, but also in multiple universities.

And you learned that they are useful? I spent many years in the same
situation and realized that I should have gotten out of the academic
world as soon as I had that piece of paper.
Gene Wirchenko
2018-03-06 18:04:06 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On Tue, 06 Mar 2018 06:52:56 -0500, J. Clarke
<***@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Mon, 5 Mar 2018 22:11:26 -0500, "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)"
><***@sgeinc.invalid.com> wrote:

[snip]

>> If you think that "being a teacher" is "never had a job", you have
>>absolutely no clue. Teachers have a very demanding job which most people
>>who sneer at them probably couldn't do.

I have seen too many teachers who know theory but not practice.
Those who have also worked in the field in question can be very
helpful indeed. Those without that are not nearly so helpful.

>I'm sorry, but nothing one does in a classroom is a "job" in my
>opinion. I have taught at several levels, been paid for it, I agree
>that there is a certain amount of effort involved, but compared to the
>kind of work where you have a concrete result to produce at the end of
>the day, it is not the same as working in a business.

I tutor some. There is a very definite concrete result I am
expected to produce: a student who now understands the material and is
able to use it.

[snip]

Sincerely,

Gene Wirchenko
J. Clarke
2018-03-07 03:16:05 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On Tue, 06 Mar 2018 10:04:06 -0800, Gene Wirchenko <***@telus.net>
wrote:

>On Tue, 06 Mar 2018 06:52:56 -0500, J. Clarke
><***@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>On Mon, 5 Mar 2018 22:11:26 -0500, "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)"
>><***@sgeinc.invalid.com> wrote:
>
>[snip]
>
>>> If you think that "being a teacher" is "never had a job", you have
>>>absolutely no clue. Teachers have a very demanding job which most people
>>>who sneer at them probably couldn't do.
>
> I have seen too many teachers who know theory but not practice.
>Those who have also worked in the field in question can be very
>helpful indeed. Those without that are not nearly so helpful.
>
>>I'm sorry, but nothing one does in a classroom is a "job" in my
>>opinion. I have taught at several levels, been paid for it, I agree
>>that there is a certain amount of effort involved, but compared to the
>>kind of work where you have a concrete result to produce at the end of
>>the day, it is not the same as working in a business.
>
> I tutor some. There is a very definite concrete result I am
>expected to produce: a student who now understands the material and is
>able to use it.

Tutoring is a bit different. The tutoree is going to be tested by
someone other than the tutor. I understand that one of the reasons
for Japanese students achieving relatively high scores on standardized
tests is that most of them are tutored outside of school.

>[snip]
>
>Sincerely,
>
>Gene Wirchenko
Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)
2018-03-08 04:11:11 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On 3/6/18 6:52 AM, J. Clarke wrote:
> On Mon, 5 Mar 2018 22:11:26 -0500, "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)"
> <***@sgeinc.invalid.com> wrote:
>
>> On 3/4/18 3:16 AM, J. Clarke wrote:
>>> On Sun, 4 Mar 2018 01:30:45 -0500, "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)"
>>> <***@sgeinc.invalid.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 3/3/18 5:36 PM, J. Clarke wrote:
>>>>> On Sat, 3 Mar 2018 16:00:27 -0600, "Michael F. Stemper"
>>>>> <***@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 2018-03-02 21:27, J. Clarke wrote:
>>>>>>> On Fri, 2 Mar 2018 13:44:43 -0800 (PST), Robert Carnegie
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Of course, working together and trusting each other
>>>>>>>> is fag commie talk. :-) But also included in some
>>>>>>>> versions of religion; others are a competition in
>>>>>>>> piety. For instance if only 144,000 people go to heaven
>>>>>>>> in the end but the church is already larger than that...
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Also included in something called "team sports" and something called
>>>>>>> "the military".
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The commie pinko idea promulgated by the commie pinko schoolteachers
>>>>>>> and university professors is the insidious one--"do your own work or
>>>>>>> come to the teacher, don't help each other".
>>>>>>
>>>>>> That's certainly how it was in my undergrad days. However, something has
>>>>>> changed in the intervening four decades.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I'm back in school. Every class so far, the professor or instructor has
>>>>>> included in the first day's administrivia words along the lines of:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You can help each other if you want, but if you do so, say on your
>>>>>> homework who helped you and on which parts. What you hand in must be
>>>>>> your own product.
>>>>>
>>>>> Maybe the idiots are starting to grow up.
>>>>>
>>>>> At work nobody in management cares if you "did your own work", just
>>>>> that the work got done.
>>>>
>>>> At work no one is training you so that you can go out and "get the work
>>>> done" regardless of whether you HAVE functional partners or not.
>>>
>>> They aren't training you to do that in school either. They are
>>> teaching a bunch of mostly irrelevant bullshit that they, having never
>>> actually held jobs in their entire lives, _think_ is important.
>>>
>>> I learned more in my first month on the job than I did in 8 years of
>>> school.
>>
>> For some people it's like that. For others, it's not. I didn't learn
>> too much from any job I had until I was in my 40s. Admittedly, I didn't
>> learn much from school either, but that's because I was freakishly good
>> at reading, remembering, and test-taking, and also really good most of
>> the time at convincing teachers to take MY view of things.
>
> What was your first job? What did you do until you were 40? If you
> didn't have work that made you learn new things I pity you.

My first job? Paperboy. Then cart-pusher and register guy at a
supermarket. Tried the military, didn't make it through. Back to school
for several years. Worked at Borders Books for about six, seven years.
Worked in a small publishing company. I suppose in all of those I
learned SOMETHING -- how to deliver papers, how to push carts in all
weather and run a register, how to shelve books, etc., but none of it
seemed to be, so to speak, educational. It just was "this is what you do
in order to do this job.

I got to read a lot of stuff at the one small publisher. And there was
the small company that had the CEO go slowly nuts and take the company
down with him, cratering just in time to make me unemployed right after
9/11.




>
>> A lot of other people actually did learn stuff in school.
>>
>>>
>>>> There
>>>> is a huge difference between education and "doing your work" in an
>>>> employment field.
>>>
>>> Yes, in the one case you have to sit in a classroom and regurgitate
>>> textbook answers on demand. In the other you have to actually make
>>> things happen.
>>
>> If you can't even remember basic facts and procedures, you're not going
>> to be able to do work, either.
>
> School didn't teach me much in the way of "basic facts and procedures"
> that I have actually used anywhere. Some of what I learned 40 years
> ago would be useful to me now in my new career but I have forgotten
> most of it.
>
>> True, I wish schools taught some
>> different things, and taught some things differently, but it's not the
>> useless setup you seem to want it to be.
>
> I don't _want_ it to be useless, I just find it so.

And many others do not.

>
>> Stats show that people who
>> DON'T get schooling generally do more poorly. (naturally there are
>> outliers that don't fit the curve, but on average, having more education
>> helps)
>
> There are many occupations for which a piece of paper is required by
> the employer. That doesn't mean that the skills associated with that
> piece of paper are necessarily relevant to the job.
>
>>>> In education, the idea is to see if *each individual
>>>> student* has learned the lessons and is able to apply them properly, not
>>>> whether they can find someone in the class to help them do so.
>>>
>>> Whereas at work the most important skill one can have is knowing who
>>> to ask.
>>
>> No. That's *AN* important skill. But depending on your particular job,
>> the MOST important skill could be one of hundreds of others. The most
>> important skill *I* have had in my professional career was being able to
>> write clearly, coherently, regularly, and productively. The second most
>> important skill (by a hair) was and is the ability to read quickly,
>> extract meaning accurately from what I read, and apply what I learn from
>> what I read to the particular problem at hand.
>
> So what do you do for a living?

R&D Coordinator at a small company. This mostly entails writing grant
proposals and, if they're won, overseeing the work and writing the
reports and such.If new innovations are sufficiently interesting, I
usually write the patents (at least the first version thereof before a
lawyer goes through and writes the detailed claims).


And of course I write SF/F.



>
>> Of course if you've only worked at tiny little companies with
>>> tiny little products that one person can understand in their entirety
>>> with a few minutes effort, you might not be able to understand the
>>> importance of that skill. And if you are some teacher who has never
>>> had a job, well . . .
>>
>> If you think that "being a teacher" is "never had a job", you have
>> absolutely no clue. Teachers have a very demanding job which most people
>> who sneer at them probably couldn't do.
>
> I'm sorry, but nothing one does in a classroom is a "job" in my
> opinion.


Then your opinion is barely worth the electrons spent to transmit it.
My father and my mother were both teachers -- my father at Albany
Medical College and later at Albany College of Pharmacy, and my mother
at several of the local public schools over the decades, teaching
English, Spanish, and sometimes running the library. Between them they
taught many thousands of students, and both of them affected their
students sufficiently that even today, decades after they stopped
working and more than a decade after both of them died, I still get
contacted by people who tell me how much my mom or my dad helped them in
one way or another through their teaching.

I got to see how much work, how much thought, was put into their work.
It's not only a job, it's a very demanding job.

I have taught at several levels, been paid for it, I agree
> that there is a certain amount of effort involved, but compared to the
> kind of work where you have a concrete result to produce at the end of
> the day, it is not the same as working in a business.

Most businesses aren't producing anything nearly as important and a lot
of them these days aren't producing anything concrete.


>
>>>> Yes, it's
>>>> fine for them to talk together and so on, but if the assignment is
>>>> "write a 25 page paper about {topic}", it doesn't give me, as an
>>>> instructor, much insight to Joe Student's capabilities in the matter if
>>>> five people work on the paper.
>>>
>>> If the assignment is "write a 25 page paper on x topic" the class is
>>> likely of little relevance anyway.
>>
>> You're not going to graduate from any decent school without doing some
>> research papers on SOMETHING, especially not in a STEM field.
>
> I believe that Georgia Tech qualfies as "any decent school", and we
> were not required to write papers. Writing papers is what the fuzzy
> studies people do. Engineers make stuff, we don't write about making
> stuff.

Maybe engineers don't, but scientists do, and there's nothing fuzzy
about physics, math, and chemistry. And if you're an engineer doing
innovative work and you don't write a paper or three on it, you will be
sure SOMEONE will.

And I have no great opinion of an engineering college that doesn't
teach its students how to understand prior research, how to do their
own, and how to write clearly and coherently on that research.



>
>>>> At the least it gets really hard to
>>>> untangle, even if they tell me who did what -- especially since I then
>>>> have to decide how much I BELIEVE of what they tell me. Did all five of
>>>> them really do what they say, or did two of them do most of the work and
>>>> just distribute the credit more evenly so all five of them did well?
>>>
>>> What subject do you teach?
>>>
>>
>> I don't; it was an example. My parents were both teachers, though, and
>> so are people of my acquaintance. I spent many years not just in the
>> public school system, but also in multiple universities.
>
> And you learned that they are useful?

Sure.

I spent many years in the same
> situation and realized that I should have gotten out of the academic
> world as soon as I had that piece of paper.
>

There are many days I wish I was STILL in the academic world.



--
Sea Wasp
/^\
;;;
Website: http://www.grandcentralarena.com Blog:
http://seawasp.dreamwidth.org
Michael F. Stemper
2018-03-10 16:44:41 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On 2018-03-07 22:11, Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor) wrote:
> On 3/6/18 6:52 AM, J. Clarke wrote:
>> On Mon, 5 Mar 2018 22:11:26 -0500, "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)"
>> <***@sgeinc.invalid.com> wrote:
>>> On 3/4/18 3:16 AM, J. Clarke wrote:

>>>     You're not going to graduate from any decent school without doing
>>> some
>>> research papers on SOMETHING, especially not in a STEM field.
>>
>> I believe that Georgia Tech qualfies as "any decent school",

I thought so until I read this post.

>> and we
>> were not required to write papers.  Writing papers is what the fuzzy
>> studies people do.  Engineers make stuff, we don't write about making
>> stuff.

That's a crock of brown, steaming stuff. We do both.

The last job I held before retirement, the president of our division
(coincidentally, with a EE degree from GIT) was pressuring me to write
more papers.

>     Maybe engineers don't, but scientists do, and there's nothing fuzzy
> about physics, math, and chemistry.

And it happens to be very difficult to do engineering without using any
of those. In my experience, anyway.

> about physics, math, and chemistry. And if you're an engineer doing
> innovative work and you don't write a paper or three on it, you will be
> sure SOMEONE will
Y'know what they call an engineer who just follows processes developed
by other people?

"Technician"

Or, over the last decade or so,

"Unemployed"

>     And I have no great opinion of an engineering college that doesn't
> teach its students how to understand prior research, how to do their
> own, and how to write clearly and coherently on that research.

Well, it appears that GIT managed to graduate at least one EE who
learned these things, since I reported (indirectly) to him.

>>>     I don't; it was an example. My parents were both teachers,
>>> though, and
>>> so are people of my acquaintance. I spent many years not just in the
>>> public school system, but also in multiple universities.
>>
>> And you learned that they are useful?
>
>     Sure.
>
>  I spent many years in the same
>> situation and realized that I should have gotten out of the academic
>> world as soon as I had that piece of paper.

<http://www.people-press.org/2017/07/10/sharp-partisan-divisions-in-views-of-national-institutions/>


--
Michael F. Stemper
Psalm 94:3-6
Michael F. Stemper
2018-03-10 17:36:03 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On 2018-03-10 10:44, Michael F. Stemper wrote:


> The last job I held before retirement, the president of our division
> (coincidentally, with a EE degree from GIT) was pressuring me to write
> more papers.

I forgot the ObSFW:

_First Lensman_, Chapter 16.

Samms is working undercover as Director of Research[1] at the
Northport factility of Uranium, Inc. He reads papers written
independently by three of his staff and has them combine the
results into something that "[...] may be worth quite a few
million credits a year [...]"


[1] He's going as Olmstead, which is confusing, since Olmstead
is (I think) working as "Jones".
--
Michael F. Stemper
Deuteronomy 10:18-19
David DeLaney
2018-03-14 19:46:57 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On 2018-03-08, Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor) <***@sgeinc.invalid.com> wrote:
> On 3/6/18 6:52 AM, J. Clarke wrote:
>> So what do you do for a living?
>
> R&D Coordinator at a small company. This mostly entails writing grant
> proposals and, if they're won, overseeing the work and writing the
> reports and such.If new innovations are sufficiently interesting, I
> usually write the patents (at least the first version thereof before a
> lawyer goes through and writes the detailed claims).

Huh. I did not know that.

> And of course I write SF/F.

And have written other things including an RPG supplement in the past.

>> I'm sorry, but nothing one does in a classroom is a "job" in my
>> opinion.

> Then your opinion is barely worth the electrons spent to transmit it.

Agreed. Teachers have a job that, from observation, J. Clarke has not been
doing on this newsgroup. Don't know whether that means he can't ... but he
_doesn't_ use teacher skills in his arguments here.

> It's not only a job, it's a very demanding job.

This here. Can you read this newsgroup? THANK A WHOLE BUNCH OF TEACHERS.

> I have taught at several levels, been paid for it, I agree
>> that there is a certain amount of effort involved, but compared to the
>> kind of work where you have a concrete result to produce at the end of
>> the day, it is not the same as working in a business.
>
> Most businesses aren't producing anything nearly as important and a lot
> of them these days aren't producing anything concrete.

... if he has that attitude, I'm not certain I'd want to take classes from him.

Did you teach directly from the textbook, whatever it was, J.? Did you teach
anywhere below high-school level?

Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting thru EarthLink - "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
my gatekeeper archives are no longer accessible :( / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.
J. Clarke
2018-03-15 02:21:41 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On Wed, 14 Mar 2018 14:46:57 -0500, David DeLaney
<***@earthlink.net> wrote:

>On 2018-03-08, Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor) <***@sgeinc.invalid.com> wrote:
>> On 3/6/18 6:52 AM, J. Clarke wrote:
>>> So what do you do for a living?
>>
>> R&D Coordinator at a small company. This mostly entails writing grant
>> proposals and, if they're won, overseeing the work and writing the
>> reports and such.If new innovations are sufficiently interesting, I
>> usually write the patents (at least the first version thereof before a
>> lawyer goes through and writes the detailed claims).
>
>Huh. I did not know that.
>
>> And of course I write SF/F.
>
>And have written other things including an RPG supplement in the past.
>
>>> I'm sorry, but nothing one does in a classroom is a "job" in my
>>> opinion.
>
>> Then your opinion is barely worth the electrons spent to transmit it.
>
>Agreed. Teachers have a job that, from observation, J. Clarke has not been
>doing on this newsgroup. Don't know whether that means he can't ... but he
>_doesn't_ use teacher skills in his arguments here.

"Teacher skills"? You mean playing word games with smartasses? I'm
sorry, but my students generally came to my classes wanting to learn,
I didn't have to play word games with them, I just had to convey the
material they needed.

A friend of mine is a PhD educator. He has massive "teacher skills".
Having a conversation with him is a minefield. But he can't actually
_do_ much of anything except confuse people with word games.

>> It's not only a job, it's a very demanding job.
>
>This here. Can you read this newsgroup? THANK A WHOLE BUNCH OF TEACHERS.

What do a whole bunch of teachers have to do with it?

>> I have taught at several levels, been paid for it, I agree
>>> that there is a certain amount of effort involved, but compared to the
>>> kind of work where you have a concrete result to produce at the end of
>>> the day, it is not the same as working in a business.
>>
>> Most businesses aren't producing anything nearly as important and a lot
>> of them these days aren't producing anything concrete.
>
>... if he has that attitude, I'm not certain I'd want to take classes from him.

Most of my students were quite happy. So were many of their
employers.

>Did you teach directly from the textbook, whatever it was, J.? Did you teach
>anywhere below high-school level?
>
>Dave
Robert Carnegie
2018-03-15 22:08:57 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On Thursday, 15 March 2018 02:21:42 UTC, J. Clarke wrote:
> On Wed, 14 Mar 2018 14:46:57 -0500, David DeLaney
> <***@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
> >On 2018-03-08, Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor) <***@sgeinc.invalid.com> wrote:
> >> On 3/6/18 6:52 AM, J. Clarke wrote:
> >>> So what do you do for a living?
> >>
> >> R&D Coordinator at a small company. This mostly entails writing grant
> >> proposals and, if they're won, overseeing the work and writing the
> >> reports and such.If new innovations are sufficiently interesting, I
> >> usually write the patents (at least the first version thereof before a
> >> lawyer goes through and writes the detailed claims).
> >
> >Huh. I did not know that.
> >
> >> And of course I write SF/F.
> >
> >And have written other things including an RPG supplement in the past.
> >
> >>> I'm sorry, but nothing one does in a classroom is a "job" in my
> >>> opinion.
> >
> >> Then your opinion is barely worth the electrons spent to transmit it.
> >
> >Agreed. Teachers have a job that, from observation, J. Clarke has not been
> >doing on this newsgroup. Don't know whether that means he can't ... but he
> >_doesn't_ use teacher skills in his arguments here.
>
> "Teacher skills"? You mean playing word games with smartasses? I'm
> sorry, but my students generally came to my classes wanting to learn,
> I didn't have to play word games with them, I just had to convey the
> material they needed.
>
> A friend of mine is a PhD educator. He has massive "teacher skills".
> Having a conversation with him is a minefield. But he can't actually
> _do_ much of anything except confuse people with word games.
>
> >> It's not only a job, it's a very demanding job.
> >
> >This here. Can you read this newsgroup? THANK A WHOLE BUNCH OF TEACHERS.
>
> What do a whole bunch of teachers have to do with it?
>
> >> I have taught at several levels, been paid for it, I agree
> >>> that there is a certain amount of effort involved, but compared to the
> >>> kind of work where you have a concrete result to produce at the end of
> >>> the day, it is not the same as working in a business.
> >>
> >> Most businesses aren't producing anything nearly as important and a lot
> >> of them these days aren't producing anything concrete.
> >
> >... if he has that attitude, I'm not certain I'd want to take classes from him.
>
> Most of my students were quite happy. So were many of their
> employers.

It still sounds like your approach is, "What you can't teach, do."
Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)
2018-03-18 23:17:24 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On 3/14/18 3:46 PM, David DeLaney wrote:
> On 2018-03-08, Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor) <***@sgeinc.invalid.com> wrote:
>> On 3/6/18 6:52 AM, J. Clarke wrote:
>>> So what do you do for a living?
>>
>> R&D Coordinator at a small company. This mostly entails writing grant
>> proposals and, if they're won, overseeing the work and writing the
>> reports and such.If new innovations are sufficiently interesting, I
>> usually write the patents (at least the first version thereof before a
>> lawyer goes through and writes the detailed claims).
>
> Huh. I did not know that.

And thus it's not as surprising that someone might ask it!

Writing fiction or RPG stuff doesn't pay the rent. It sometimes pays
for vacations, or repairs.

>
>> And of course I write SF/F.
>
> And have written other things including an RPG supplement in the past.

Which, alas, never got published.

>
>>> I'm sorry, but nothing one does in a classroom is a "job" in my
>>> opinion.
>
>> Then your opinion is barely worth the electrons spent to transmit it.
>
> Agreed. Teachers have a job that, from observation, J. Clarke has not been
> doing on this newsgroup. Don't know whether that means he can't ... but he
> _doesn't_ use teacher skills in his arguments here.
>
>> It's not only a job, it's a very demanding job.
>
> This here. Can you read this newsgroup? THANK A WHOLE BUNCH OF TEACHERS.


Depends on the person. No teacher in school showed me how to read.
That was my mother who started me, and I did the rest.




--
Sea Wasp
/^\
;;;
Website: http://www.grandcentralarena.com Blog:
http://seawasp.dreamwidth.org
J. Clarke
2018-03-18 23:25:36 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On Sun, 18 Mar 2018 19:17:24 -0400, "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)"
<***@sgeinc.invalid.com> wrote:

>On 3/14/18 3:46 PM, David DeLaney wrote:
>> On 2018-03-08, Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor) <***@sgeinc.invalid.com> wrote:
>>> On 3/6/18 6:52 AM, J. Clarke wrote:
>>>> So what do you do for a living?
>>>
>>> R&D Coordinator at a small company. This mostly entails writing grant
>>> proposals and, if they're won, overseeing the work and writing the
>>> reports and such.If new innovations are sufficiently interesting, I
>>> usually write the patents (at least the first version thereof before a
>>> lawyer goes through and writes the detailed claims).
>>
>> Huh. I did not know that.
>
> And thus it's not as surprising that someone might ask it!
>
> Writing fiction or RPG stuff doesn't pay the rent. It sometimes pays
>for vacations, or repairs.
>
>>
>>> And of course I write SF/F.
>>
>> And have written other things including an RPG supplement in the past.
>
> Which, alas, never got published.
>
>>
>>>> I'm sorry, but nothing one does in a classroom is a "job" in my
>>>> opinion.
>>
>>> Then your opinion is barely worth the electrons spent to transmit it.
>>
>> Agreed. Teachers have a job that, from observation, J. Clarke has not been
>> doing on this newsgroup. Don't know whether that means he can't ... but he
>> _doesn't_ use teacher skills in his arguments here.
>>
>>> It's not only a job, it's a very demanding job.
>>
>> This here. Can you read this newsgroup? THANK A WHOLE BUNCH OF TEACHERS.
>
>
> Depends on the person. No teacher in school showed me how to read.
>That was my mother who started me, and I did the rest.

My parents thought that the schools were supposed to do all of that
sort of thing. I wasn't allowed to touch books until I started school
(note--my parents were not readers--I think my mother read two books
in 20 years while my father tended to be a look-at-the-pictures type,
which is surprising given that he was a senior naval officer).

The school did a fair job of teaching me to read, a not quite so good
job of teaching me arithmetic, and after that it went downhill.
Michael F. Stemper
2018-03-20 23:24:15 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On 2018-03-18 18:25, J. Clarke wrote:
> On Sun, 18 Mar 2018 19:17:24 -0400, "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)"
> <***@sgeinc.invalid.com> wrote:

>> Depends on the person. No teacher in school showed me how to read.
>> That was my mother who started me, and I did the rest.
>
> My parents thought that the schools were supposed to do all of that
> sort of thing. I wasn't allowed to touch books until I started school

I seem to recall that there was (in the '30s or '40s or '50s) an effort
in that direction. Some book that I read when very young, possibly _To
Kill a Mockingbird_, included a parent who'd been harassed for letting
one of his/her kids learn to read before starting school.

--
Michael F. Stemper
Always remember that you are unique. Just like everyone else.
Lawrence Watt-Evans
2018-03-21 04:45:33 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On Tue, 20 Mar 2018 18:24:15 -0500, "Michael F. Stemper"
<***@gmail.com> wrote:

>On 2018-03-18 18:25, J. Clarke wrote:
>> On Sun, 18 Mar 2018 19:17:24 -0400, "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)"
>> <***@sgeinc.invalid.com> wrote:
>
>>> Depends on the person. No teacher in school showed me how to read.
>>> That was my mother who started me, and I did the rest.
>>
>> My parents thought that the schools were supposed to do all of that
>> sort of thing. I wasn't allowed to touch books until I started school
>
>I seem to recall that there was (in the '30s or '40s or '50s) an effort
>in that direction. Some book that I read when very young, possibly _To
>Kill a Mockingbird_, included a parent who'd been harassed for letting
>one of his/her kids learn to read before starting school.

The consensus on that kept changing, well into the 1960s, and I
believe there was some local variation, as well.

I don't remember all of us, but my siblings and I pretty much all
learned to read by different methods and on different schedules. I
remember my parents told me they wouldn't teach me because it would
cause trouble when I started school, but then in kindergarten we
learned the alphabet, and the teacher wrote the lyrics of a song on
the blackboard (and since in theory none of us could read, I don't
know why she bothered), and the correlation between letter and sound
clicked into place for me, and a month later I was reading everything
I could get my hands on.

My next younger sister taught herself to read when she was about four.
Then a couple of years later she and I taught our youngest sister
because she was constantly asking us to read stuff to her and we
wanted her to shut up and leave us alone, and our parents were
steadfastly refused to teach her because the schools said not to.

That youngest sister was born early in 1961, and I think we taught her
to read late in 1964. Might have been '65.



--
My webpage is at http://www.watt-evans.com
My latest novel is Stone Unturned: A Legend of Ethshar.
See http://www.ethshar.com/StoneUnturned.shtml
David Goldfarb
2018-03-20 03:56:02 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
In article <p8ms24$u9q$***@dont-email.me>,
Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor) <***@sgeinc.invalid.com> wrote:
>> This here. Can you read this newsgroup? THANK A WHOLE BUNCH OF TEACHERS.
>
> Depends on the person. No teacher in school showed me how to read.
>That was my mother who started me, and I did the rest.

I didn't learn to read in school either. On the other hand, if Usenet
had posts only by people who taught themselves to read, I suspect that
volume would be even lower than it is now.

--
David Goldfarb |"Bagels can be an enormous force for good or
***@gmail.com | for evil. It is up to us to decide how we
***@ocf.berkeley.edu | will use them."
| -- Daniel M. Pinkwater
Ninapenda Jibini
2018-03-20 05:43:22 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
***@ocf.berkeley.edu (David Goldfarb) wrote in
news:***@kithrup.com:

> In article <p8ms24$u9q$***@dont-email.me>,
> Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor) <***@sgeinc.invalid.com> wrote:
>>> This here. Can you read this newsgroup? THANK A WHOLE BUNCH OF
>>> TEACHERS.
>>
>> Depends on the person. No teacher in school showed me how
>> to read.
>>That was my mother who started me, and I did the rest.
>
> I didn't learn to read in school either. On the other hand, if
> Usenet had posts only by people who taught themselves to read, I
> suspect that volume would be even lower than it is now.
>
Probably more coherent, though.

--
Terry Austin

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.
Robert Carnegie
2018-03-20 21:12:37 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On Tuesday, 20 March 2018 04:15:04 UTC, David Goldfarb wrote:
> In article <p8ms24$u9q$***@dont-email.me>,
> Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor) <***@sgeinc.invalid.com> wrote:
> >> This here. Can you read this newsgroup? THANK A WHOLE BUNCH OF TEACHERS.
> >
> > Depends on the person. No teacher in school showed me how to read.
> >That was my mother who started me, and I did the rest.
>
> I didn't learn to read in school either. On the other hand, if Usenet
> had posts only by people who taught themselves to read, I suspect that
> volume would be even lower than it is now.

I expect I learned /some/ of it in school. Formal grammar
came to me quite late - having deviated from mainstream formal
education at rather an early stage - although for reading,
you can pick up a lot of it as you go along, without really
knowing the word "verb".
David Johnston
2018-03-20 05:51:14 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On 2018-03-18 5:17 PM, Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor) wrote:
> On 3/14/18 3:46 PM, David DeLaney wrote:
>> On 2018-03-08, Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor) <***@sgeinc.invalid.com>
>> wrote:
>>> On 3/6/18 6:52 AM, J. Clarke wrote:
>>>> So what do you do for a living?
>>>
>>>     R&D Coordinator at a small company. This mostly entails writing
>>> grant
>>> proposals and, if they're won, overseeing the work and writing the
>>> reports and such.If new innovations are sufficiently interesting, I
>>> usually write the patents (at least the first version thereof before a
>>> lawyer goes through and writes the detailed claims).
>>
>> Huh. I did not know that.
>
>     And thus it's not as surprising that someone might ask it!
>
>     Writing fiction or RPG stuff doesn't pay the rent. It sometimes
> pays for vacations, or repairs.
>
>>
>>>     And of course I write SF/F.
>>
>> And have written other things including an RPG supplement in the past.
>
>     Which, alas, never got published.
>
>>
>>>> I'm sorry, but nothing one does in a classroom is a "job" in my
>>>> opinion.
>>
>>>     Then your opinion is barely worth the electrons spent to transmit
>>> it.
>>
>> Agreed. Teachers have a job that, from observation, J. Clarke has not
>> been
>> doing on this newsgroup. Don't know whether that means he can't ...
>> but he
>> _doesn't_ use teacher skills in his arguments here.
>>
>>> It's not only a job, it's a very demanding job.
>>
>> This here. Can you read this newsgroup? THANK A WHOLE BUNCH OF TEACHERS.
>
>
>     Depends on the person. No teacher in  school showed me how to read.
> That was my mother who started me, and I did the rest.

Ah but who taught your mother?
Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)
2018-03-20 23:16:52 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On 3/20/18 1:51 AM, David Johnston wrote:
> On 2018-03-18 5:17 PM, Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor) wrote:
>> On 3/14/18 3:46 PM, David DeLaney wrote:
>>> On 2018-03-08, Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor) <***@sgeinc.invalid.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>> On 3/6/18 6:52 AM, J. Clarke wrote:
>>>>> So what do you do for a living?
>>>>
>>>> R&D Coordinator at a small company. This mostly entails writing
>>>> grant
>>>> proposals and, if they're won, overseeing the work and writing the
>>>> reports and such.If new innovations are sufficiently interesting, I
>>>> usually write the patents (at least the first version thereof before a
>>>> lawyer goes through and writes the detailed claims).
>>>
>>> Huh. I did not know that.
>>
>> And thus it's not as surprising that someone might ask it!
>>
>> Writing fiction or RPG stuff doesn't pay the rent. It sometimes
>> pays for vacations, or repairs.
>>
>>>
>>>> And of course I write SF/F.
>>>
>>> And have written other things including an RPG supplement in the past.
>>
>> Which, alas, never got published.
>>
>>>
>>>>> I'm sorry, but nothing one does in a classroom is a "job" in my
>>>>> opinion.
>>>
>>>> Then your opinion is barely worth the electrons spent to
>>>> transmit it.
>>>
>>> Agreed. Teachers have a job that, from observation, J. Clarke has not
>>> been
>>> doing on this newsgroup. Don't know whether that means he can't ...
>>> but he
>>> _doesn't_ use teacher skills in his arguments here.
>>>
>>>> It's not only a job, it's a very demanding job.
>>>
>>> This here. Can you read this newsgroup? THANK A WHOLE BUNCH OF TEACHERS.
>>
>>
>> Depends on the person. No teacher in school showed me how to
>> read. That was my mother who started me, and I did the rest.
>
> Ah but who taught your mother?
>

She taught herself, as I understand it.



--
Sea Wasp
/^\
;;;
Website: http://www.grandcentralarena.com Blog:
http://seawasp.dreamwidth.org
D B Davis
2018-03-22 16:19:31 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
David Johnston <***@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On 2018-03-18 5:17 PM, Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor) wrote:

<snip>

>>
>> Depends on the person. No teacher in school showed me how to read.
>> That was my mother who started me, and I did the rest.
>
> Ah but who taught your mother?
>

Grandmothers all the way down? "Nine Hundred Grandmothers" perhaps?
My mother taught me the alphabet at a tender age. After that, there
was no stopping me. There was a need deep within me to understand those
things made out of a sheaf of paper (eg books). Authors wanted to tell
me important things.
Outliers, such as the lower case g, double storey style, caught my
attention. There was no double storey g on the large, standard-issue,
elementary school room upper and lower-case alphabet short-and-wide
poster prominently displayed near the ceiling above my teacher's desk.
The double storey g was notably absent /in school/ and yet it was
found in all of the interesting books /at home/. The books at home that
were harder to read, that contained many polysyllabic words, with
sentences much longer than "See Dick run."
Meanwhile, in public school (before Catholic school, honors classes,
and early graduation) the whole class patiently waited for the slowest
pupil to ever so s-l-o-w-l-y grok the meaning of "See Dick Run." At
first, such stupid spells proved excruciatingly painful to the brighter
kids. But the brighter kids soon taught themselves to play mental
solitaire (so to speak) until the stupid subsided. Judging by the follow
ups to this thread, the brighter kids eventually found their way into
rasw.

Thank you,

--
Don
Kevrob
2018-03-22 19:16:18 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On Thursday, March 22, 2018 at 12:19:34 PM UTC-4, D B Davis wrote:

> Meanwhile, in public school (before Catholic school, honors classes,
> and early graduation) the whole class patiently waited for the slowest
> pupil to ever so s-l-o-w-l-y grok the meaning of "See Dick Run." At
> first, such stupid spells proved excruciatingly painful to the brighter
> But the brighter kids soon taught themselves to play mental
> solitaire (so to speak) until the stupid subsided. Judging by the follow
> ups to this thread, the brighter kids eventually found their way into
> rasw.

Were you broken up into "reading groups" in the early grades?
My 1st grade (Catholic school, early 60s) had us classed as
Jets, Planes and Gliders. We did take turns reading aloud,
and when the Glider kids gave it a try, you could see the Jets,
and even some Planes, squirming, trying not to incur Sista's wrath,
by blurting out some version of "get ON with it, buddy!"

Nowadays that would be considered egregious labeling by the
self-esteem polizei.

Kevin R
D B Davis
2018-03-22 20:13:24 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Kevrob <***@my-deja.com> wrote:
> On Thursday, March 22, 2018 at 12:19:34 PM UTC-4, D B Davis wrote:
>
>> Meanwhile, in public school (before Catholic school, honors classes,
>> and early graduation) the whole class patiently waited for the slowest
>> pupil to ever so s-l-o-w-l-y grok the meaning of "See Dick Run." At
>> first, such stupid spells proved excruciatingly painful to the brighter
>> But the brighter kids soon taught themselves to play mental
>> solitaire (so to speak) until the stupid subsided. Judging by the follow
>> ups to this thread, the brighter kids eventually found their way into
>> rasw.
>
> Were you broken up into "reading groups" in the early grades?
> My 1st grade (Catholic school, early 60s) had us classed as
> Jets, Planes and Gliders. We did take turns reading aloud,
> and when the Glider kids gave it a try, you could see the Jets,
> and even some Planes, squirming, trying not to incur Sista's wrath,
> by blurting out some version of "get ON with it, buddy!"
>
> Nowadays that would be considered egregious labeling by the
> self-esteem polizei.

We made circular formations to /talk/ about stories. Reading was mostly
a solo activity. Sometimes little plays took place in class. Classroom
plays required you to memorize your little lines.
It's mean of me label slow readers. OTOH, they made time pass even
slower.
Time already passes very slowly for children, to slow it down even
further makes it painful. _Man and Time_ (Priestley) talks about the
phenomenon:

... the incorrupted high-speed metabolism of childhood can by
unconscious comparison make time seem to crawl, so that Christmas
or the seaside holiday will never arrive.
People dealing with children should always remember this
different time scale and its magnification of things. When
children meet cruelty or even unkindness or neglect, there
seems to them no end to it, they face eons of menace and
misery and hopeless bewilderment, they feel lost in a
nightmare world that no adults, however much they might suffer,
ever stumble into again.

Thank you,

--
Don
Greg Goss
2018-03-23 13:21:16 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Kevrob <***@my-deja.com> wrote:

>On Thursday, March 22, 2018 at 12:19:34 PM UTC-4, D B Davis wrote:
>
>> Meanwhile, in public school (before Catholic school, honors classes,
>> and early graduation) the whole class patiently waited for the slowest
>> pupil to ever so s-l-o-w-l-y grok the meaning of "See Dick Run." At
>> first, such stupid spells proved excruciatingly painful to the brighter
>> But the brighter kids soon taught themselves to play mental
>> solitaire (so to speak) until the stupid subsided. Judging by the follow
>> ups to this thread, the brighter kids eventually found their way into
>> rasw.
>
>Were you broken up into "reading groups" in the early grades?
>My 1st grade (Catholic school, early 60s) had us classed as
>Jets, Planes and Gliders. We did take turns reading aloud,
>and when the Glider kids gave it a try, you could see the Jets,
>and even some Planes, squirming, trying not to incur Sista's wrath,
>by blurting out some version of "get ON with it, buddy!"

In 1962, I was placed into an experimental scheme in Toronto that was
intended to compress kindergarten, Grade 1 and Grade 2 into two years.
In 1964, we moved semi-rural BC over the summer.

In my new Grade 2, I was placed into the lower (of two) reading group.
Three weeks later, the teacher swapped textbooks on me, and told me to
read the first x pages of this other book over the weekend. Some time
after that I was switched to a "split class" that was one third Grade
2 and 2/3 Grade 3. Split classes were a fairly common feature at that
school. People in the lower split got an early intro to the more
advanced stuff, and the people in the upper split got a review of the
stuff they should already have mastered. I was in the lower split the
rest of the way through elementary school.
--
We are geeks. Resistance is voltage over current.
Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
2018-03-22 20:17:02 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
D B Davis <***@crcomp.net> wrote in news:***@crcomp.net:

> Meanwhile, in public school (before Catholic school, honors
> classes,
> and early graduation) the whole class patiently waited for the
> slowest pupil to ever so s-l-o-w-l-y grok the meaning of "See
> Dick Run." At first, such stupid spells proved excruciatingly
> painful to the brighter kids. But the brighter kids soon taught
> themselves to play mental solitaire (so to speak) until the
> stupid subsided. Judging by the follow ups to this thread, the
> brighter kids eventually found their way into rasw.
>
I just took books to read during those parts of the class. Mostly, my
sister's science fiction and fantasy books. I had good enough
teachers that they left me alone (because I wasn't disrupting the
blass, and the other kids would get jealous sometimes, which
encouraged them to try harder, too). In the 6th grade, the school
administered a series of achievment tests (at the mandate of the
federal government, I think), and they told me was I reading at a
college junior level, and could sit in on any science class the high
school had to offer and get a better grade than the high schoolers.
Reading a lot of science fiction does that to you.

(I believe I actually learned the fundamentals of reading in
kindergarden, but I was an eager student because my sister, who is
six years older than me, read to me before I started, and reading was
*cool*. Once I figured out what a dictionary and encylopedia was, the
school never taught me anything else about reading that I hadn't
known for years.)

--
Terry Austin

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.
David DeLaney
2018-03-21 09:47:15 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On 2018-03-18, Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor) <***@sgeinc.invalid.com> wrote:
>> And have written other things including an RPG supplement in the past.
>
> Which, alas, never got published.

Wait, not the Planes of ... lemme look ... okay, Chessboards: The Planes of
Possibility that I own? Huh. I shall realign my memory cell.

>> This here. Can you read this newsgroup? THANK A WHOLE BUNCH OF TEACHERS.
>
> Depends on the person. No teacher in school showed me how to read.
> That was my mother who started me, and I did the rest.

Most of the regular folks don't teach themselves to read before getting yo
school, upside-down OR rightside-up. And of those who do, most of them don't
acquire an extensive vocabulary, or innate knowledge of spelling in English
or its curious grammar, on their own...

Dave, J. could have but somehow I'm not seeing it from his present persona
--
\/David DeLaney posting thru EarthLink - "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
my gatekeeper archives are no longer accessible :( / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.
J. Clarke
2018-03-21 11:21:35 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On Wed, 21 Mar 2018 04:47:15 -0500, David DeLaney
<***@earthlink.net> wrote:

>On 2018-03-18, Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor) <***@sgeinc.invalid.com> wrote:
>>> And have written other things including an RPG supplement in the past.
>>
>> Which, alas, never got published.
>
>Wait, not the Planes of ... lemme look ... okay, Chessboards: The Planes of
>Possibility that I own? Huh. I shall realign my memory cell.
>
>>> This here. Can you read this newsgroup? THANK A WHOLE BUNCH OF TEACHERS.
>>
>> Depends on the person. No teacher in school showed me how to read.
>> That was my mother who started me, and I did the rest.
>
>Most of the regular folks don't teach themselves to read before getting yo
>school, upside-down OR rightside-up. And of those who do, most of them don't
>acquire an extensive vocabulary, or innate knowledge of spelling in English
>or its curious grammar, on their own...
>
>Dave, J. could have but somehow I'm not seeing it from his present persona

There's something wrong with our language education too. Most of the
people I work with who were _not_ born in the US can communicate in
half a dozen languages. Most who _were_ born in the US only have one.
And not for lack of trying to learn others.
m***@sky.com
2018-03-21 20:16:17 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
(trimmed)
>
> There's something wrong with our language education too. Most of the
> people I work with who were _not_ born in the US can communicate in
> half a dozen languages. Most who _were_ born in the US only have one.
> And not for lack of trying to learn others.

I suggest you find out how long it took them to learn English, and how many hours a week they need to be using English to stay fluent, before you decide that it would be nice if everybody in the country spoke a second language. I think that if your first language is English/American/The language of the Internet it may make sense to spend time on STEM skills instead of language skills.
J. Clarke
2018-03-21 22:57:15 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On Wed, 21 Mar 2018 13:16:17 -0700 (PDT), ***@sky.com wrote:

>(trimmed)
>>
>> There's something wrong with our language education too. Most of the
>> people I work with who were _not_ born in the US can communicate in
>> half a dozen languages. Most who _were_ born in the US only have one.
>> And not for lack of trying to learn others.
>
>I suggest you find out how long it took them to learn English, and how many hours a week they need to be using English to stay fluent, before you decide that it would be nice if everybody in the country spoke a second language. I think that if your first language is English/American/The language of the Internet it may make sense to spend time on STEM skills instead of language skills.

I suggest you find out how many other languages they can communicate
in besides English and how many the average American can communicate
in.
Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
2018-03-21 23:14:27 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
J. Clarke <***@gmail.com> wrote in
news:***@4ax.com:

> On Wed, 21 Mar 2018 13:16:17 -0700 (PDT), ***@sky.com
> wrote:
>
>>(trimmed)
>>>
>>> There's something wrong with our language education too. Most
>>> of the people I work with who were _not_ born in the US can
>>> communicate in half a dozen languages. Most who _were_ born
>>> in the US only have one. And not for lack of trying to learn
>>> others.
>>
>>I suggest you find out how long it took them to learn English,
>>and how many hours a week they need to be using English to stay
>>fluent, before you decide that it would be nice if everybody in
>>the country spoke a second language. I think that if your first
>>language is English/American/The language of the Internet it may
>>make sense to spend time on STEM skills instead of language
>>skills.
>
> I suggest you find out how many other languages they can
> communicate in besides English and how many the average American
> can communicate in.
>
There is considerable incentive for people for whom English is not
their first language to learn English. There is very little
incentive for people for whom English *is* their first language to
learn any other language. English is the languge of business in
much of the world, and the language of tourism nearly everywhere.
(When I was in Iceland, there were a lot of Chinese tourists. All
of them spoke English. The only Chinese I heard was between Chinese
tourists.)

It's a side effect of being the only remaining superpower.

--
Terry Austin

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.
William Hyde
2018-03-22 19:10:43 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On Wednesday, March 21, 2018 at 7:14:30 PM UTC-4, Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha wrote:
> J. Clarke <***@gmail.com> wrote in
> news:***@4ax.com:
>
> > On Wed, 21 Mar 2018 13:16:17 -0700 (PDT), ***@sky.com
> > wrote:
> >
> >>(trimmed)
> >>>
> >>> There's something wrong with our language education too. Most
> >>> of the people I work with who were _not_ born in the US can
> >>> communicate in half a dozen languages. Most who _were_ born
> >>> in the US only have one. And not for lack of trying to learn
> >>> others.
> >>
> >>I suggest you find out how long it took them to learn English,
> >>and how many hours a week they need to be using English to stay
> >>fluent, before you decide that it would be nice if everybody in
> >>the country spoke a second language. I think that if your first
> >>language is English/American/The language of the Internet it may
> >>make sense to spend time on STEM skills instead of language
> >>skills.
> >
> > I suggest you find out how many other languages they can
> > communicate in besides English and how many the average American
> > can communicate in.
> >
> There is considerable incentive for people for whom English is not
> their first language to learn English. There is very little
> incentive for people for whom English *is* their first language to
> learn any other language.

I've always found it surprising that people do *not* want to learn a second language, in the same way I was surprised by people who, on principle, wouldn't read a work of SF.

My interests in SF and in languages are linked, somehow. And I don't think my case is unique.

English is the languge of business in
> much of the world,

When I was an undergrad it was impossible to really follow the literature in many subjects without reading at least one foreign language. For a PhD in Mathematics or Physics at U of Toronto you had to get a certificate in one of French, German, Russian, Italian. The chemistry department was tougher, you needed two.

My next door neighbor was a fine mathematician but not so good at languages. After failing his French certificate several times, he finally studied German and passed that the first time. Then moved to the French speaking part of Switzerland.

I thought I had it made because I already spoke German. But by the time I got into the program they'd dropped the requirement.

and the language of tourism nearly everywhere.

I find it pleasant while visiting Germany, the Netherlands, or Wallonia, to be able to read the street signs and understand at least part of what is said around me. I really don't like it when I can't.

I could rarely practice my German in Germany, though. As soon as they hear my (doubtless godawful) accent they switch to English.

> (When I was in Iceland, there were a lot of Chinese tourists. All
> of them spoke English. The only Chinese I heard was between Chinese
> tourists.)

In my time no Asian languages were taught in school. We thought the Russian alphabet was hard enough. Little did we know.

William Hyde
Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
2018-03-22 20:10:41 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
William Hyde <***@gmail.com> wrote in
news:e260d41b-4a87-482d-a57c-***@googlegroups.com:

> On Wednesday, March 21, 2018 at 7:14:30 PM UTC-4, Jibini Kula
> Tumbili Kujisalimisha wrote:
>> J. Clarke <***@gmail.com> wrote in
>> news:***@4ax.com:
>>
>> > On Wed, 21 Mar 2018 13:16:17 -0700 (PDT), ***@sky.com
>> > wrote:
>> >
>> >>(trimmed)
>> >>>
>> >>> There's something wrong with our language education too.
>> >>> Most of the people I work with who were _not_ born in the
>> >>> US can communicate in half a dozen languages. Most who
>> >>> _were_ born in the US only have one. And not for lack of
>> >>> trying to learn others.
>> >>
>> >>I suggest you find out how long it took them to learn
>> >>English, and how many hours a week they need to be using
>> >>English to stay fluent, before you decide that it would be
>> >>nice if everybody in the country spoke a second language. I
>> >>think that if your first language is English/American/The
>> >>language of the Internet it may make sense to spend time on
>> >>STEM skills instead of language skills.
>> >
>> > I suggest you find out how many other languages they can
>> > communicate in besides English and how many the average
>> > American can communicate in.
>> >
>> There is considerable incentive for people for whom English is
>> not their first language to learn English. There is very little
>> incentive for people for whom English *is* their first language
>> to learn any other language.
>
> I've always found it surprising that people do *not* want to
> learn a second language, in the same way I was surprised by
> people who, on principle, wouldn't read a work of SF.

I've always found it surprising (no, actually, I don't) how many
people believe the plural of "anecdote" is "data."
>
> My interests in SF and in languages are linked, somehow. And I
> don't think my case is unique.
>
> English is the languge of business in
>> much of the world,
>
> When I was an undergrad it was impossible to really follow the
> literature in many subjects without reading at least one foreign
> language.

Academia isn't business.

> and the language of tourism nearly everywhere.
>
> I find it pleasant while visiting Germany, the Netherlands, or
> Wallonia, to be able to read the street signs and understand at
> least part of what is said around me. I really don't like it
> when I can't.

My father worked overseas for years before I was born. On a trip
back from Saudi Arabia (for his father's funeral), they went
through Paris. He *hated* tourist-y stuff, so the went out of their
way to find a restaurant that didn't cater to tourists. The waiter,
being not only snooty French, but snooty Parisian, came to take
their order, in French. My father was behind the line in WWII
before D-day, and placed the order in *perfect* Parisian French.
Said it was the best service they got the whole trip.

But you can get by pretty much anywhere that caters to tourism at
all with English. And so can other tourists, wether they speak
English at home or not.
>
> I could rarely practice my German in Germany, though. As soon
> as they hear my (doubtless godawful) accent they switch to
> English.

If they cater *at* *all* to tourists, they have a lot more practice
at speaking English than they do at understanding bad German.

(Though I am reminded of the story from Apollo-Soyuz, about one of
the US astronauts who spoke fluent Russian, but with a Texan
accent. The Russians reportedly begged to converse in English.
Wasn't they couldn't understand him, But Russian with a drawl just
freaked them out.)
>
>> (When I was in Iceland, there were a lot of Chinese tourists.
>> All of them spoke English. The only Chinese I heard was between
>> Chinese tourists.)
>
> In my time no Asian languages were taught in school. We thought
> the Russian alphabet was hard enough. Little did we know.
>
Heh. I learned German (or, rather, High Dutch, from what I
understand) in high school. I think I could still count to ten.

--
Terry Austin

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.
J. Clarke
2018-03-23 02:37:22 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On Thu, 22 Mar 2018 12:10:43 -0700 (PDT), William Hyde
<***@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Wednesday, March 21, 2018 at 7:14:30 PM UTC-4, Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha wrote:
>> J. Clarke <***@gmail.com> wrote in
>> news:***@4ax.com:
>>
>> > On Wed, 21 Mar 2018 13:16:17 -0700 (PDT), ***@sky.com
>> > wrote:
>> >
>> >>(trimmed)
>> >>>
>> >>> There's something wrong with our language education too. Most
>> >>> of the people I work with who were _not_ born in the US can
>> >>> communicate in half a dozen languages. Most who _were_ born
>> >>> in the US only have one. And not for lack of trying to learn
>> >>> others.
>> >>
>> >>I suggest you find out how long it took them to learn English,
>> >>and how many hours a week they need to be using English to stay
>> >>fluent, before you decide that it would be nice if everybody in
>> >>the country spoke a second language. I think that if your first
>> >>language is English/American/The language of the Internet it may
>> >>make sense to spend time on STEM skills instead of language
>> >>skills.
>> >
>> > I suggest you find out how many other languages they can
>> > communicate in besides English and how many the average American
>> > can communicate in.
>> >
>> There is considerable incentive for people for whom English is not
>> their first language to learn English. There is very little
>> incentive for people for whom English *is* their first language to
>> learn any other language.
>
>I've always found it surprising that people do *not* want to learn a second language, in the same way I was surprised by people who, on principle, wouldn't read a work of SF.
>
>My interests in SF and in languages are linked, somehow. And I don't think my case is unique.
>
> English is the languge of business in
>> much of the world,
>
>When I was an undergrad it was impossible to really follow the literature in many subjects without reading at least one foreign language. For a PhD in Mathematics or Physics at U of Toronto you had to get a certificate in one of French, German, Russian, Italian. The chemistry department was tougher, you needed two.
>
>My next door neighbor was a fine mathematician but not so good at languages. After failing his French certificate several times, he finally studied German and passed that the first time. Then moved to the French speaking part of Switzerland.
>
>I thought I had it made because I already spoke German. But by the time I got into the program they'd dropped the requirement.
>
> and the language of tourism nearly everywhere.
>
>I find it pleasant while visiting Germany, the Netherlands, or Wallonia, to be able to read the street signs and understand at least part of what is said around me. I really don't like it when I can't.
>
>I could rarely practice my German in Germany, though. As soon as they hear my (doubtless godawful) accent they switch to English.
>
>> (When I was in Iceland, there were a lot of Chinese tourists. All
>> of them spoke English. The only Chinese I heard was between Chinese
>> tourists.)
>
>In my time no Asian languages were taught in school. We thought the Russian alphabet was hard enough. Little did we know.

FWIW, in my two years of Catholic school I was studying French in the
second grade (presumably the first-graders got it too). I know others
who got the full course in those schools who are pretty good with at
least one foreign language. The public schools give 2 years starting
in junior high or high school. I don't think they're giving it an
honest effort.

The notion that foreigners are good with languages because they need
to be and Americans aren't because they don't need to be is more
self-justification by incompetent schoolteachers.
Ninapenda Jibini
2018-03-23 04:05:39 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
J. Clarke <***@gmail.com> wrote in
news:***@4ax.com:

> On Thu, 22 Mar 2018 12:10:43 -0700 (PDT), William Hyde
> <***@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>On Wednesday, March 21, 2018 at 7:14:30 PM UTC-4, Jibini Kula
>>Tumbili Kujisalimisha wrote:
>>> J. Clarke <***@gmail.com> wrote in
>>> news:***@4ax.com:
>>>
>>> > On Wed, 21 Mar 2018 13:16:17 -0700 (PDT),
>>> > ***@sky.com wrote:
>>> >
>>> >>(trimmed)
>>> >>>
>>> >>> There's something wrong with our language education too.
>>> >>> Most of the people I work with who were _not_ born in the
>>> >>> US can communicate in half a dozen languages. Most who
>>> >>> _were_ born in the US only have one. And not for lack of
>>> >>> trying to learn others.
>>> >>
>>> >>I suggest you find out how long it took them to learn
>>> >>English, and how many hours a week they need to be using
>>> >>English to stay fluent, before you decide that it would be
>>> >>nice if everybody in the country spoke a second language. I
>>> >>think that if your first language is English/American/The
>>> >>language of the Internet it may make sense to spend time on
>>> >>STEM skills instead of language skills.
>>> >
>>> > I suggest you find out how many other languages they can
>>> > communicate in besides English and how many the average
>>> > American can communicate in.
>>> >
>>> There is considerable incentive for people for whom English is
>>> not their first language to learn English. There is very
>>> little incentive for people for whom English *is* their first
>>> language to learn any other language.
>>
>>I've always found it surprising that people do *not* want to
>>learn a second language, in the same way I was surprised by
>>people who, on principle, wouldn't read a work of SF.
>>
>>My interests in SF and in languages are linked, somehow. And I
>>don't think my case is unique.
>>
>> English is the languge of business in
>>> much of the world,
>>
>>When I was an undergrad it was impossible to really follow the
>>literature in many subjects without reading at least one foreign
>>language. For a PhD in Mathematics or Physics at U of Toronto
>>you had to get a certificate in one of French, German, Russian,
>>Italian. The chemistry department was tougher, you needed two.
>>
>>My next door neighbor was a fine mathematician but not so good
>>at languages. After failing his French certificate several
>>times, he finally studied German and passed that the first time.
>> Then moved to the French speaking part of Switzerland.
>>
>>I thought I had it made because I already spoke German. But by
>>the time I got into the program they'd dropped the requirement.
>>
>> and the language of tourism nearly everywhere.
>>
>>I find it pleasant while visiting Germany, the Netherlands, or
>>Wallonia, to be able to read the street signs and understand at
>>least part of what is said around me. I really don't like it
>>when I can't.
>>
>>I could rarely practice my German in Germany, though. As soon
>>as they hear my (doubtless godawful) accent they switch to
>>English.
>>
>>> (When I was in Iceland, there were a lot of Chinese tourists.
>>> All of them spoke English. The only Chinese I heard was
>>> between Chinese tourists.)
>>
>>In my time no Asian languages were taught in school. We thought
>>the Russian alphabet was hard enough. Little did we know.
>
> FWIW, in my two years of Catholic school I was studying French
> in the second grade (presumably the first-graders got it too).
> I know others who got the full course in those schools who are
> pretty good with at least one foreign language. The public
> schools give 2 years starting in junior high or high school. I
> don't think they're giving it an honest effort.

Why would they, when it matters so little?
>
> The notion that foreigners are good with languages because they
> need to be and Americans aren't because they don't need to be is
> more self-justification by incompetent schoolteachers.
>
You never fail to deliver on the stupid.

--
Terry Austin

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.
William Hyde
2018-03-23 05:54:03 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On Friday, March 23, 2018 at 12:05:42 AM UTC-4, Ninapenda Jibini wrote:
> J. Clarke <***@gmail.com> wrote in
> news:***@4ax.com:
>
> > On Thu, 22 Mar 2018 12:10:43 -0700 (PDT), William Hyde
> > <***@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >>On Wednesday, March 21, 2018 at 7:14:30 PM UTC-4, Jibini Kula
> >>Tumbili Kujisalimisha wrote:
> >>> J. Clarke <***@gmail.com> wrote in
> >>> news:***@4ax.com:
> >>>
> >>> > On Wed, 21 Mar 2018 13:16:17 -0700 (PDT),
> >>> > ***@sky.com wrote:
> >>> >
> >>> >>(trimmed)
> >>> >>>
> >>> >>> There's something wrong with our language education too.
> >>> >>> Most of the people I work with who were _not_ born in the
> >>> >>> US can communicate in half a dozen languages. Most who
> >>> >>> _were_ born in the US only have one. And not for lack of
> >>> >>> trying to learn others.
> >>> >>
> >>> >>I suggest you find out how long it took them to learn
> >>> >>English, and how many hours a week they need to be using
> >>> >>English to stay fluent, before you decide that it would be
> >>> >>nice if everybody in the country spoke a second language. I
> >>> >>think that if your first language is English/American/The
> >>> >>language of the Internet it may make sense to spend time on
> >>> >>STEM skills instead of language skills.
> >>> >
> >>> > I suggest you find out how many other languages they can
> >>> > communicate in besides English and how many the average
> >>> > American can communicate in.
> >>> >
> >>> There is considerable incentive for people for whom English is
> >>> not their first language to learn English. There is very
> >>> little incentive for people for whom English *is* their first
> >>> language to learn any other language.
> >>
> >>I've always found it surprising that people do *not* want to
> >>learn a second language, in the same way I was surprised by
> >>people who, on principle, wouldn't read a work of SF.
> >>
> >>My interests in SF and in languages are linked, somehow. And I
> >>don't think my case is unique.
> >>
> >> English is the languge of business in
> >>> much of the world,
> >>
> >>When I was an undergrad it was impossible to really follow the
> >>literature in many subjects without reading at least one foreign
> >>language. For a PhD in Mathematics or Physics at U of Toronto
> >>you had to get a certificate in one of French, German, Russian,
> >>Italian. The chemistry department was tougher, you needed two.
> >>
> >>My next door neighbor was a fine mathematician but not so good
> >>at languages. After failing his French certificate several
> >>times, he finally studied German and passed that the first time.
> >> Then moved to the French speaking part of Switzerland.
> >>
> >>I thought I had it made because I already spoke German. But by
> >>the time I got into the program they'd dropped the requirement.
> >>
> >> and the language of tourism nearly everywhere.
> >>
> >>I find it pleasant while visiting Germany, the Netherlands, or
> >>Wallonia, to be able to read the street signs and understand at
> >>least part of what is said around me. I really don't like it
> >>when I can't.
> >>
> >>I could rarely practice my German in Germany, though. As soon
> >>as they hear my (doubtless godawful) accent they switch to
> >>English.
> >>
> >>> (When I was in Iceland, there were a lot of Chinese tourists.
> >>> All of them spoke English. The only Chinese I heard was
> >>> between Chinese tourists.)
> >>
> >>In my time no Asian languages were taught in school. We thought
> >>the Russian alphabet was hard enough. Little did we know.
> >
> > FWIW, in my two years of Catholic school I was studying French
> > in the second grade (presumably the first-graders got it too).
> > I know others who got the full course in those schools who are
> > pretty good with at least one foreign language. The public
> > schools give 2 years starting in junior high or high school. I
> > don't think they're giving it an honest effort.
>
> Why would they, when it matters so little?
> >
> > The notion that foreigners are good with languages because they
> > need to be and Americans aren't because they don't need to be is
> > more self-justification by incompetent schoolteachers.
> >
> You never fail to deliver on the stupid.

My language teachers ranged from excellent to good, with more of the former. No excuses for me there.

But then, pretty much all the teachers I had were good, and the school was in Canada so French was compulsory. And it was in a different century. So of limited relevance except for the obvious question.

I hung around with four French speakers in Texas (two Quebecois, one from France, one from Lebanon) never got to speak French with them as they all wanted to practice their English (which in two of four cases was perfect).

The only practice I got was with the cafeteria workers, some of whom were Haitian. I think I picked up the French for "ranch dressing".

William Hyde
Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
2018-03-23 15:57:45 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
William Hyde <***@gmail.com> wrote in
news:f3db307c-2406-42fe-8481-***@googlegroups.com:

> On Friday, March 23, 2018 at 12:05:42 AM UTC-4, Ninapenda Jibini
> wrote:
>> J. Clarke <***@gmail.com> wrote in
>> news:***@4ax.com:
>>
>> > On Thu, 22 Mar 2018 12:10:43 -0700 (PDT), William Hyde
>> > <***@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >
>> >>On Wednesday, March 21, 2018 at 7:14:30 PM UTC-4, Jibini Kula
>> >>Tumbili Kujisalimisha wrote:
>> >>> J. Clarke <***@gmail.com> wrote in
>> >>> news:***@4ax.com:
>> >>>
>> >>> > On Wed, 21 Mar 2018 13:16:17 -0700 (PDT),
>> >>> > ***@sky.com wrote:
>> >>> >
>> >>> >>(trimmed)
>> >>> >>>
>> >>> >>> There's something wrong with our language education
>> >>> >>> too. Most of the people I work with who were _not_ born
>> >>> >>> in the US can communicate in half a dozen languages.
>> >>> >>> Most who _were_ born in the US only have one. And not
>> >>> >>> for lack of trying to learn others.
>> >>> >>
>> >>> >>I suggest you find out how long it took them to learn
>> >>> >>English, and how many hours a week they need to be using
>> >>> >>English to stay fluent, before you decide that it would
>> >>> >>be nice if everybody in the country spoke a second
>> >>> >>language. I think that if your first language is
>> >>> >>English/American/The language of the Internet it may make
>> >>> >>sense to spend time on STEM skills instead of language
>> >>> >>skills.
>> >>> >
>> >>> > I suggest you find out how many other languages they can
>> >>> > communicate in besides English and how many the average
>> >>> > American can communicate in.
>> >>> >
>> >>> There is considerable incentive for people for whom English
>> >>> is not their first language to learn English. There is very
>> >>> little incentive for people for whom English *is* their
>> >>> first language to learn any other language.
>> >>
>> >>I've always found it surprising that people do *not* want to
>> >>learn a second language, in the same way I was surprised by
>> >>people who, on principle, wouldn't read a work of SF.
>> >>
>> >>My interests in SF and in languages are linked, somehow. And
>> >>I don't think my case is unique.
>> >>
>> >> English is the languge of business in
>> >>> much of the world,
>> >>
>> >>When I was an undergrad it was impossible to really follow
>> >>the literature in many subjects without reading at least one
>> >>foreign language. For a PhD in Mathematics or Physics at U
>> >>of Toronto you had to get a certificate in one of French,
>> >>German, Russian, Italian. The chemistry department was
>> >>tougher, you needed two.
>> >>
>> >>My next door neighbor was a fine mathematician but not so
>> >>good at languages. After failing his French certificate
>> >>several times, he finally studied German and passed that the
>> >>first time.
>> >> Then moved to the French speaking part of Switzerland.
>> >>
>> >>I thought I had it made because I already spoke German. But
>> >>by the time I got into the program they'd dropped the
>> >>requirement.
>> >>
>> >> and the language of tourism nearly everywhere.
>> >>
>> >>I find it pleasant while visiting Germany, the Netherlands,
>> >>or Wallonia, to be able to read the street signs and
>> >>understand at least part of what is said around me. I really
>> >>don't like it when I can't.
>> >>
>> >>I could rarely practice my German in Germany, though. As
>> >>soon as they hear my (doubtless godawful) accent they switch
>> >>to English.
>> >>
>> >>> (When I was in Iceland, there were a lot of Chinese
>> >>> tourists. All of them spoke English. The only Chinese I
>> >>> heard was between Chinese tourists.)
>> >>
>> >>In my time no Asian languages were taught in school. We
>> >>thought the Russian alphabet was hard enough. Little did we
>> >>know.
>> >
>> > FWIW, in my two years of Catholic school I was studying
>> > French in the second grade (presumably the first-graders got
>> > it too). I know others who got the full course in those
>> > schools who are pretty good with at least one foreign
>> > language. The public schools give 2 years starting in junior
>> > high or high school. I don't think they're giving it an
>> > honest effort.
>>
>> Why would they, when it matters so little?
>> >
>> > The notion that foreigners are good with languages because
>> > they need to be and Americans aren't because they don't need
>> > to be is more self-justification by incompetent
>> > schoolteachers.
>> >
>> You never fail to deliver on the stupid.
>
> My language teachers ranged from excellent to good, with more of
> the former. No excuses for me there.
>
> But then, pretty much all the teachers I had were good,

My high school was poor, and run by morons, so there were, IIRC,
excatly three teachers in the entire district who weren't
incompetent boobs who couln't get a job at a real school. (Both
lived within walking distance, which is an accomplishment in a
rural community, and appreciated being able to walk to work.) One
of them as the foregien language teacher, who was from Germany (who
made it clear what she was teaching us was what the textbook
publisher thought was German, and most German's would disagree).

> and the
> school was in Canada so French was compulsory. And it was in a
> different century. So of limited relevance except for the
> obvious question.

Indeed.
>
> I hung around with four French speakers in Texas (two Quebecois,
> one from France, one from Lebanon)

All of whom, I suspect, would deny that the others actually spoke
French.

> never got to speak French
> with them as they all wanted to practice their English (which in
> two of four cases was perfect).

I've been in Texas. English is a foreign language.
>
> The only practice I got was with the cafeteria workers, some of
> whom were Haitian. I think I picked up the French for "ranch
> dressing".
>
My mother learned the Icelandic words for different types of meat
when my father was working there, so many years before everybody
there spoke English for the tourists. (Because pointing at what
looks good will get you horse meat, which requires different
cooking methods to be more edible than show leather. And she
couldn't boil water especially competently.)

--
Terry Austin

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.
Lynn McGuire
2018-03-23 18:59:55 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On 3/23/2018 10:57 AM, Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha wrote:
...
>> never got to speak French
>> with them as they all wanted to practice their English (which in
>> two of four cases was perfect).
>
> I've been in Texas. English is a foreign language.
...

Actually, Texas has about five different sublanguages of English. There
is west Texan, north Texan, south Texan, and central Texan. Oh yeah,
there is also cajun Texan for east Texas.

Lynn
William Hyde
2018-03-23 20:01:34 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On Friday, March 23, 2018 at 3:00:01 PM UTC-4, Lynn McGuire wrote:
> On 3/23/2018 10:57 AM, Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha wrote:
> ...
> >> never got to speak French
> >> with them as they all wanted to practice their English (which in
> >> two of four cases was perfect).
> >
> > I've been in Texas. English is a foreign language.
> ...
>
> Actually, Texas has about five different sublanguages of English. There
> is west Texan, north Texan, south Texan, and central Texan. Oh yeah,
> there is also cajun Texan for east Texas.

I never had the slightest difficulty understanding a native Texan (it's not hard to figure out what "both Y'all" means). But I was amused when PBS Houston subtitled a program from England. And no, not from Yorkshire.

William Hyde
Dorothy J Heydt
2018-03-23 20:09:22 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
In article <91343f6a-236a-45ee-bc0c-***@googlegroups.com>,
William Hyde <***@gmail.com> wrote:
>On Friday, March 23, 2018 at 3:00:01 PM UTC-4, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>> On 3/23/2018 10:57 AM, Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha wrote:
>> ...
>> >> never got to speak French
>> >> with them as they all wanted to practice their English (which in
>> >> two of four cases was perfect).
>> >
>> > I've been in Texas. English is a foreign language.
>> ...
>>
>> Actually, Texas has about five different sublanguages of English. There
>> is west Texan, north Texan, south Texan, and central Texan. Oh yeah,
>> there is also cajun Texan for east Texas.
>
>I never had the slightest difficulty understanding a native Texan (it's
>not hard to figure out what "both Y'all" means). But I was amused when
>PBS Houston subtitled a program from England. And no, not from
>Yorkshire.

I discovered, when I visited Yorkshire, that I could understand
the locals just fine, if there was no interfering noise. But I
could never make out what the waitress in the B&B was saying.

--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
2018-03-23 22:13:54 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
***@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) wrote in
news:***@kithrup.com:

> In article
> <91343f6a-236a-45ee-bc0c-***@googlegroups.com>, William
> Hyde <***@gmail.com> wrote:
>>On Friday, March 23, 2018 at 3:00:01 PM UTC-4, Lynn McGuire
>>wrote:
>>> On 3/23/2018 10:57 AM, Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
>>> wrote: ...
>>> >> never got to speak French
>>> >> with them as they all wanted to practice their English
>>> >> (which in two of four cases was perfect).
>>> >
>>> > I've been in Texas. English is a foreign language.
>>> ...
>>>
>>> Actually, Texas has about five different sublanguages of
>>> English. There is west Texan, north Texan, south Texan, and
>>> central Texan. Oh yeah, there is also cajun Texan for east
>>> Texas.
>>
>>I never had the slightest difficulty understanding a native
>>Texan (it's not hard to figure out what "both Y'all" means).
>>But I was amused when PBS Houston subtitled a program from
>>England. And no, not from Yorkshire.
>
> I discovered, when I visited Yorkshire, that I could understand
> the locals just fine, if there was no interfering noise. But I
> could never make out what the waitress in the B&B was saying.
>
One of the funniest things I've ever heard was a guy from east
London (I think it was - worst Cockney accent I've ever heard that
wasn't put on for television) trying to talk to a guy from rural
Georgia (the state, not the country). They really couldn't
communicate without a translater, but they sure had fun trying.

--
Terry Austin

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.
Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
2018-03-23 22:11:18 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
William Hyde <***@gmail.com> wrote in
news:91343f6a-236a-45ee-bc0c-***@googlegroups.com:

> On Friday, March 23, 2018 at 3:00:01 PM UTC-4, Lynn McGuire
> wrote:
>> On 3/23/2018 10:57 AM, Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha wrote:
>> ...
>> >> never got to speak French
>> >> with them as they all wanted to practice their English
>> >> (which in two of four cases was perfect).
>> >
>> > I've been in Texas. English is a foreign language.
>> ...
>>
>> Actually, Texas has about five different sublanguages of
>> English. There is west Texan, north Texan, south Texan, and
>> central Texan. Oh yeah, there is also cajun Texan for east
>> Texas.
>
> I never had the slightest difficulty understanding a native
> Texan (it's not hard to figure out what "both Y'all" means).
> But I was amused when PBS Houston subtitled a program from
> England. And no, not from Yorkshire.
>
Y'all, all y'all, and all y'all all, because you need singular,
plural, and, well, I don't know what. But usage isn't consistent from
one place to another, so assign a specific meaning randomly.

--
Terry Austin

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.
Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
2018-03-23 22:09:09 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Lynn McGuire <***@gmail.com> wrote in
news:p93ire$86g$***@dont-email.me:

> On 3/23/2018 10:57 AM, Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha wrote:
> ...
>>> never got to speak French
>>> with them as they all wanted to practice their English (which
>>> in two of four cases was perfect).
>>
>> I've been in Texas. English is a foreign language.
> ...
>
> Actually, Texas has about five different sublanguages of
> English. There is west Texan, north Texan, south Texan, and
> central Texan. Oh yeah, there is also cajun Texan for east
> Texas.
>
And, in my experience, none of them is English. I'm not entirely sure
any of them count as *human* languages.

--
Terry Austin

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.
Lynn McGuire
2018-03-23 23:43:54 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On 3/23/2018 5:09 PM, Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha wrote:
> Lynn McGuire <***@gmail.com> wrote in
> news:p93ire$86g$***@dont-email.me:
>
>> On 3/23/2018 10:57 AM, Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha wrote:
>> ...
>>>> never got to speak French
>>>> with them as they all wanted to practice their English (which
>>>> in two of four cases was perfect).
>>>
>>> I've been in Texas. English is a foreign language.
>> ...
>>
>> Actually, Texas has about five different sublanguages of
>> English. There is west Texan, north Texan, south Texan, and
>> central Texan. Oh yeah, there is also cajun Texan for east
>> Texas.
>>
> And, in my experience, none of them is English. I'm not entirely sure
> any of them count as *human* languages.

Y'all are just jealous.

Lynn
William Hyde
2018-03-24 01:03:03 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On Friday, March 23, 2018 at 7:44:00 PM UTC-4, Lynn McGuire wrote:
> On 3/23/2018 5:09 PM, Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha wrote:
> > Lynn McGuire <***@gmail.com> wrote in
> > news:p93ire$86g$***@dont-email.me:
> >
> >> On 3/23/2018 10:57 AM, Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha wrote:
> >> ...
> >>>> never got to speak French
> >>>> with them as they all wanted to practice their English (which
> >>>> in two of four cases was perfect).
> >>>
> >>> I've been in Texas. English is a foreign language.
> >> ...
> >>
> >> Actually, Texas has about five different sublanguages of
> >> English. There is west Texan, north Texan, south Texan, and
> >> central Texan. Oh yeah, there is also cajun Texan for east
> >> Texas.
> >>
> > And, in my experience, none of them is English. I'm not entirely sure
> > any of them count as *human* languages.
>
> Y'all are just jealous.

Shouldn't that be "You Y'all"?

William Hyde
Kevrob
2018-03-24 01:40:36 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On Friday, March 23, 2018 at 9:03:07 PM UTC-4, William Hyde wrote:
> On Friday, March 23, 2018 at 7:44:00 PM UTC-4, Lynn McGuire wrote:

> > Y'all are just jealous.
>
> Shouldn't that be "You Y'all"?

Youse guys need to learn English.

Kevin R
Lawrence Watt-Evans
2018-03-24 03:30:30 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On Fri, 23 Mar 2018 18:03:03 -0700 (PDT), William Hyde
<***@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Friday, March 23, 2018 at 7:44:00 PM UTC-4, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>> On 3/23/2018 5:09 PM, Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha wrote:
>> > Lynn McGuire <***@gmail.com> wrote in
>> > news:p93ire$86g$***@dont-email.me:
>> >
>> >> On 3/23/2018 10:57 AM, Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha wrote:
>> >> ...
>> >>>> never got to speak French
>> >>>> with them as they all wanted to practice their English (which
>> >>>> in two of four cases was perfect).
>> >>>
>> >>> I've been in Texas. English is a foreign language.
>> >> ...
>> >>
>> >> Actually, Texas has about five different sublanguages of
>> >> English. There is west Texan, north Texan, south Texan, and
>> >> central Texan. Oh yeah, there is also cajun Texan for east
>> >> Texas.
>> >>
>> > And, in my experience, none of them is English. I'm not entirely sure
>> > any of them count as *human* languages.
>>
>> Y'all are just jealous.
>
>Shouldn't that be "You Y'all"?

You mean "all y'all."




--
My webpage is at http://www.watt-evans.com
My latest novel is Stone Unturned: A Legend of Ethshar.
See http://www.ethshar.com/StoneUnturned.shtml
Quadibloc
2018-03-22 17:02:14 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Two things.

We don't start them young enough.

And living in North America instead of Europe, it's hard for a young
native speaker of English to see any Earthly use for a second language
commensurate with the enormous amount of memorization drudgery its
acquisition requires.
Robert Carnegie
2018-03-22 22:43:11 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On Thursday, 22 March 2018 17:02:18 UTC, Quadibloc wrote:
> Two things.
>
> We don't start them young enough.
>
> And living in North America instead of Europe, it's hard for a young
> native speaker of English to see any Earthly use for a second language
> commensurate with the enormous amount of memorization drudgery its
> acquisition requires.

Ay, caramba! And zut alors!

Apparently, if you start young enough, it isn't drudgery.
I got it much later, and it was.
Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
2018-03-22 23:12:51 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Robert Carnegie <***@excite.com> wrote in
news:28d79da9-4286-42ed-8e5d-***@googlegroups.com:

> On Thursday, 22 March 2018 17:02:18 UTC, Quadibloc wrote:
>> Two things.
>>
>> We don't start them young enough.
>>
>> And living in North America instead of Europe, it's hard for a
>> young native speaker of English to see any Earthly use for a
>> second language commensurate with the enormous amount of
>> memorization drudgery its acquisition requires.
>
> Ay, caramba! And zut alors!
>
> Apparently, if you start young enough, it isn't drudgery.
> I got it much later, and it was.
>
Up until about the age of four or five, if a child is around people
who are speaking a particular language, you cannot keep them from
learning it. The brain physically wires itself around the language,
in fact. (This is why you get stuff like the stereotypical "l" vs
"r" thing with Chinese speakers speaking English. If your native
language(s) do not use a particular phonetic sound, your brain
interprets is as one that is used. You literally can't hear the
difference. There is no language on earth that uses *all* the
phonetic sounds humans can make.)

But once the kid reachs a certain age, the brain loses the
plasticity to do that, and learning a new lanuage becomes very
burdensome. Learning a language similar to a known one, like German
for an English speaker, isn't overly difficult, but a language from
a completely different language family, like Chinese for an English
speaker, it is rare to ever achieve more than minimal fluency.

Note that, in the US at least, public education doesn't start until
after that period of extreme brain plsticity is done. There is no
point at which public educaction is really *capable* of effectively
teaching new languages.

--
Terry Austin

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.
J. Clarke
2018-03-23 02:38:15 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On Thu, 22 Mar 2018 10:02:14 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc
<***@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:

>Two things.
>
>We don't start them young enough.
>
>And living in North America instead of Europe, it's hard for a young
>native speaker of English to see any Earthly use for a second language
>commensurate with the enormous amount of memorization drudgery its
>acquisition requires.

Pick up hot Quebecois or Puerterro girls?
Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
2018-03-23 15:58:25 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
J. Clarke <***@gmail.com> wrote in
news:***@4ax.com:

> On Thu, 22 Mar 2018 10:02:14 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc
> <***@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:
>
>>Two things.
>>
>>We don't start them young enough.
>>
>>And living in North America instead of Europe, it's hard for a
>>young native speaker of English to see any Earthly use for a
>>second language commensurate with the enormous amount of
>>memorization drudgery its acquisition requires.
>
> Pick up hot Quebecois or Puerterro girls?
>
If you've looking for chicks in the US, they'll speak English, too.

--
Terry Austin

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.
Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)
2018-03-21 22:40:02 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On 3/21/18 5:47 AM, David DeLaney wrote:
> On 2018-03-18, Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor) <***@sgeinc.invalid.com> wrote:
>>> And have written other things including an RPG supplement in the past.
>>
>> Which, alas, never got published.
>
> Wait, not the Planes of ... lemme look ... okay, Chessboards: The Planes of
> Possibility that I own? Huh. I shall realign my memory cell.

Nope. _Unorthodox Strategies: Deities in Non-Fantasy Campaigns_.
Finished first draft, was working on second when WotC dumped their RPG
work. Paid me, though.



--
Sea Wasp
/^\
;;;
Website: http://www.grandcentralarena.com Blog:
http://seawasp.dreamwidth.org
Greg Goss
2018-03-22 03:07:39 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
David DeLaney <***@earthlink.net> wrote:

>Most of the regular folks don't teach themselves to read before getting yo
>school, upside-down OR rightside-up. And of those who do, most of them don't
>acquire an extensive vocabulary, or innate knowledge of spelling in English
>or its curious grammar, on their own...

A girl that I frequently babysat was being taught a weird version of
see-say that seemed to involve picking up the first and last letter
and guessing the rest from context.

After I realized that she was approaching Grade 3 with essentially no
ability to read, I tried to introduce her to phonics. Her three year
old brother picked up the concept from watching me attempt to
introduce it to her. Twenty years later, she enjoyed reading and
spent a lot of time "in" magazines, but her reading speed was about a
third of what it should have been.

I don't know if she was officially dyslexic, or just mis-trained.
--
We are geeks. Resistance is voltage over current.
Default User
2018-03-19 19:06:03 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor) wrote:

> On 3/6/18 6:52 AM, J. Clarke wrote:

> > So what do you do for a living?
>
> R&D Coordinator at a small company. This mostly entails writing
> grant proposals and, if they're won, overseeing the work and writing
> the reports and such.If new innovations are sufficiently interesting,
> I usually write the patents (at least the first version thereof
> before a lawyer goes through and writes the detailed claims).

I spent a number of years in R&D at Megacorp, working various software
explorations.


Brian
David DeLaney
2018-03-14 19:41:45 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On 2018-03-06, J Clarke <***@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Mon, 5 Mar 2018 22:11:26 -0500, "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)"
>> No. That's *AN* important skill. But depending on your particular job,
>>the MOST important skill could be one of hundreds of others. The most
>>important skill *I* have had in my professional career was being able to
>>write clearly, coherently, regularly, and productively. The second most
>>important skill (by a hair) was and is the ability to read quickly,
>>extract meaning accurately from what I read, and apply what I learn from
>>what I read to the particular problem at hand.
>
> So what do you do for a living?

Dude, did you just ask _Sea Wasp_ that?

Dave, I mean, I could understand you not remembering what _I_ do
--
\/David DeLaney posting thru EarthLink - "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
my gatekeeper archives are no longer accessible :( / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.
J. Clarke
2018-03-15 02:22:39 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On Wed, 14 Mar 2018 14:41:45 -0500, David DeLaney
<***@earthlink.net> wrote:

>On 2018-03-06, J Clarke <***@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Mon, 5 Mar 2018 22:11:26 -0500, "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)"
>>> No. That's *AN* important skill. But depending on your particular job,
>>>the MOST important skill could be one of hundreds of others. The most
>>>important skill *I* have had in my professional career was being able to
>>>write clearly, coherently, regularly, and productively. The second most
>>>important skill (by a hair) was and is the ability to read quickly,
>>>extract meaning accurately from what I read, and apply what I learn from
>>>what I read to the particular problem at hand.
>>
>> So what do you do for a living?
>
>Dude, did you just ask _Sea Wasp_ that?

I have never been told what he does.

>Dave, I mean, I could understand you not remembering what _I_ do
Quadibloc
2018-03-16 13:26:24 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
He is a published science-fiction author, ant this has been noted on multiple occasions in this group.
J. Clarke
2018-03-17 02:15:17 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On Fri, 16 Mar 2018 06:26:24 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc
<***@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:

>He is a published science-fiction author, ant this has been noted on multiple occasions in this group.

But what's his day job? There are a lot of published authors who
don't make a living at it.
Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)
2018-03-18 23:19:31 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On 3/16/18 10:15 PM, J. Clarke wrote:
> On Fri, 16 Mar 2018 06:26:24 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc
> <***@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:
>
>> He is a published science-fiction author, ant this has been noted on multiple occasions in this group.
>
> But what's his day job? There are a lot of published authors who
> don't make a living at it.
>

In fact the vast majority of the published authors don't make a living
at it. In my case I'd have to hit even bigger than most because I have a
larger family than average to support.




--
Sea Wasp
/^\
;;;
Website: http://www.grandcentralarena.com Blog:
http://seawasp.dreamwidth.org
Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)
2018-03-18 23:17:50 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On 3/14/18 3:41 PM, David DeLaney wrote:
> On 2018-03-06, J Clarke <***@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Mon, 5 Mar 2018 22:11:26 -0500, "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)"
>>> No. That's *AN* important skill. But depending on your particular job,
>>> the MOST important skill could be one of hundreds of others. The most
>>> important skill *I* have had in my professional career was being able to
>>> write clearly, coherently, regularly, and productively. The second most
>>> important skill (by a hair) was and is the ability to read quickly,
>>> extract meaning accurately from what I read, and apply what I learn from
>>> what I read to the particular problem at hand.
>>
>> So what do you do for a living?
>
> Dude, did you just ask _Sea Wasp_ that?
>
> Dave, I mean, I could understand you not remembering what _I_ do
>

Well, as we see later, you actually only knew ONE of the things I do
for some of my living. :)



--
Sea Wasp
/^\
;;;
Website: http://www.grandcentralarena.com Blog:
http://seawasp.dreamwidth.org
Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
2018-03-14 20:00:53 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
J. Clarke <***@gmail.com> wrote in
news:***@4ax.com:

> I'm sorry,

You certainly are.

> but nothing one does in a classroom is a "job" in my
> opinion.

If you get paid do it, it's a job.

> I have taught at several levels, been paid for it, I
> agree that there is a certain amount of effort involved, but
> compared to the kind of work where you have a concrete result to
> produce at the end of the day, it is not the same as working in
> a business.

I can certainly believe you've never done it to a professional level.
Given the level of incoherence in most of your posts here, it's hard
to imagine you have enough mastery of the language to explain things
clearly that you *do* know about, and you don't know your ass from a
hole in the ground about much.

Teaching in a classroom isn't the same as working in a busienss, but
neither is working in a business. Digging ditches for a living isn't
the same as working in a call center, or practicing law, or desiging
computer chips, or making porn. But all are jobs.

Trying to redefine words just makes you look *stupid*. But it's not
just a *look* for you, is it?

--
Terry Austin

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.
Robert Carnegie
2018-03-04 15:06:36 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On Sunday, 4 March 2018 06:30:50 UTC, Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor) wrote:
> On 3/3/18 5:36 PM, J. Clarke wrote:
> > On Sat, 3 Mar 2018 16:00:27 -0600, "Michael F. Stemper"
> > <***@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >> On 2018-03-02 21:27, J. Clarke wrote:
> >>> On Fri, 2 Mar 2018 13:44:43 -0800 (PST), Robert Carnegie
> >>
> >>>> Of course, working together and trusting each other
> >>>> is fag commie talk. :-) But also included in some
> >>>> versions of religion; others are a competition in
> >>>> piety. For instance if only 144,000 people go to heaven
> >>>> in the end but the church is already larger than that...
> >>>
> >>> Also included in something called "team sports" and something called
> >>> "the military".
> >>>
> >>> The commie pinko idea promulgated by the commie pinko schoolteachers
> >>> and university professors is the insidious one--"do your own work or
> >>> come to the teacher, don't help each other".
> >>
> >> That's certainly how it was in my undergrad days. However, something has
> >> changed in the intervening four decades.
> >>
> >> I'm back in school. Every class so far, the professor or instructor has
> >> included in the first day's administrivia words along the lines of:
> >>
> >> You can help each other if you want, but if you do so, say on your
> >> homework who helped you and on which parts. What you hand in must be
> >> your own product.
> >
> > Maybe the idiots are starting to grow up.
> >
> > At work nobody in management cares if you "did your own work", just
> > that the work got done.
>
> At work no one is training you so that you can go out and "get the work
> done" regardless of whether you HAVE functional partners or not. There
> is a huge difference between education and "doing your work" in an
> employment field. In education, the idea is to see if *each individual
> student* has learned the lessons and is able to apply them properly, not
> whether they can find someone in the class to help them do so. Yes, it's
> fine for them to talk together and so on, but if the assignment is
> "write a 25 page paper about {topic}", it doesn't give me, as an
> instructor, much insight to Joe Student's capabilities in the matter if
> five people work on the paper. At the least it gets really hard to
> untangle, even if they tell me who did what -- especially since I then
> have to decide how much I BELIEVE of what they tell me. Did all five of
> them really do what they say, or did two of them do most of the work and
> just distribute the credit more evenly so all five of them did well?

I skimmed the latest issue of British junior comic magazine
_The Beano_; apology to <https://lewstringer.blogspot.co.uk>,
I did not purchase it. I was drawn by a cover featuring
what turns out to be kind of _The Pagemaster_ but hosted by
a ghost lady libratian like in _Ghost Busters_.

Well, that wasn't the only story driven by Student A getting
paid to do Student B's homework for them. And it's been
running since before decimal money. Is it a Trope,
or holding the mirror up to Nature?

Who does the actual work for classwork, homework, and
group work also comes up again and again in the "Learning"
section of <https://notalwaysright.com> - although I just
look at "All" to keep myself up to date on what is wrong
with human nature. :_)

> If you aren't carrying your part of the load
> > though your co-workers can get upset.
Kevrob
2018-03-04 19:31:34 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On Friday, March 2, 2018 at 10:27:41 PM UTC-5, J. Clarke wrote:

> The commie pinko idea promulgated by the commie pinko schoolteachers
> and university professors is the insidious one--"do your own work or
> come to the teacher, don't help each other".

US public schools are very into "co-operative learning" these
days.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cooperative_learning

The "red commies" in the old Soviet Union didn't rely on that,
at least not for any scientific or technical field.

Kevin R
Ahasuerus
2018-03-04 20:53:01 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On Sunday, March 4, 2018 at 2:31:43 PM UTC-5, Kevrob wrote:
> On Friday, March 2, 2018 at 10:27:41 PM UTC-5, J. Clarke wrote:
>
> > The commie pinko idea promulgated by the commie pinko
> > schoolteachers and university professors is the insidious
> > one--"do your own work or come to the teacher, don't help each
> > other".
>
> US public schools are very into "co-operative learning" these
> days.
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cooperative_learning
>
> The "red commies" in the old Soviet Union didn't rely on that,
> at least not for any scientific or technical field.

The Soviets tried all kinds of collectivistic experiments in
education, especially during Stalin's "revolution from above" in
the late 1920s and early 1930. Eventually they all failed and the
Soviets reverted to more traditional methods. For example:

"The so-called 'brigade-laboratory method', involving group work on
projects under the supervision of a professor, was officially
endorsed by Narkompros [Soviet Ministry of Education] in 1931. The
old rabfak [workers' university] practice of collective testing
(kollektivnyi uchet) replaced formal examinations. The resulting
disorganization is vividly described in the jubilee history of the
Plekhanov Economics Institute:

"[snip] In testing knowledge, it was difficult to establish the
individuality of each member of the brigade. The more competent
students, on whom fell the responsibility for success of the whole
brigade, carried an enormous workload." (Sheila Fitzpatrick,
_Education and Social Mobility in the Soviet Union: 1921-1934_,
Cambridge University Press, 2002 edition, p. 191)
Kevrob
2018-03-04 22:22:42 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On Sunday, March 4, 2018 at 3:53:10 PM UTC-5, Ahasuerus wrote:
> On Sunday, March 4, 2018 at 2:31:43 PM UTC-5, Kevrob wrote:
> > On Friday, March 2, 2018 at 10:27:41 PM UTC-5, J. Clarke wrote:
> >
> > > The commie pinko idea promulgated by the commie pinko
> > > schoolteachers and university professors is the insidious
> > > one--"do your own work or come to the teacher, don't help each
> > > other".
> >
> > US public schools are very into "co-operative learning" these
> > days.
> >
> > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cooperative_learning
> >
> > The "red commies" in the old Soviet Union didn't rely on that,
> > at least not for any scientific or technical field.
>

.....

> "[snip] In testing knowledge, it was difficult to establish the
> individuality of each member of the brigade. The more competent
> students, on whom fell the responsibility for success of the whole
> brigade, carried an enormous workload." (Sheila Fitzpatrick,
> _Education and Social Mobility in the Soviet Union: 1921-1934_,
> Cambridge University Press, 2002 edition, p. 191)

Excellent point! This was something I'd never run across.

USSR university admissions were supposed to be highly competitive
post WWII, but the system became corrupt over time. Children of those
already in the "intelligentsia" had a better shot at getting in, and
certain ethnic groups, notably Jews, had trouble finding places.
Milovan Djilas' "new class" theory is instructive, here/[aka:
the nomenklatura] In the mid-50s, after Stalin, places for non-Russians
were made.

The story you quoted reminds me of Lenin's New Economic Policy in
its pragmatism.

Kevin R
Ahasuerus
2018-03-06 01:48:57 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On Sunday, March 4, 2018 at 5:22:48 PM UTC-5, Kevrob wrote:
> On Sunday, March 4, 2018 at 3:53:10 PM UTC-5, Ahasuerus wrote:
> > On Sunday, March 4, 2018 at 2:31:43 PM UTC-5, Kevrob wrote:
> > > On Friday, March 2, 2018 at 10:27:41 PM UTC-5, J. Clarke wrote:
> > >
> > > > The commie pinko idea promulgated by the commie pinko
> > > > schoolteachers and university professors is the insidious
> > > > one--"do your own work or come to the teacher, don't help each
> > > > other".
> > >
> > > US public schools are very into "co-operative learning" these
> > > days.
> > >
> > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cooperative_learning
> > >
> > > The "red commies" in the old Soviet Union didn't rely on that,
> > > at least not for any scientific or technical field.
> >
>
> .....
>
> > "[snip] In testing knowledge, it was difficult to establish the
> > individuality of each member of the brigade. The more competent
> > students, on whom fell the responsibility for success of the whole
> > brigade, carried an enormous workload." (Sheila Fitzpatrick,
> > _Education and Social Mobility in the Soviet Union: 1921-1934_,
> > Cambridge University Press, 2002 edition, p. 191)
>
> Excellent point! This was something I'd never run across. [snip]

One of the more curious things about history is how much of it there is.
J. Clarke
2018-03-04 21:52:58 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On Sun, 4 Mar 2018 11:31:34 -0800 (PST), Kevrob <***@my-deja.com>
wrote:

>On Friday, March 2, 2018 at 10:27:41 PM UTC-5, J. Clarke wrote:
>
>> The commie pinko idea promulgated by the commie pinko schoolteachers
>> and university professors is the insidious one--"do your own work or
>> come to the teacher, don't help each other".
>
>US public schools are very into "co-operative learning" these
>days.
>
>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cooperative_learning

Are they? Or do education theorists just want them to be?

>The "red commies" in the old Soviet Union didn't rely on that,
>at least not for any scientific or technical field.

According to the red commies I work with (not being facetious--while
none of them have any love for Communism they grew up under it) the
teachers for the most part didn't care if the students passed or
failed. They presented the material and expected the students to get
it--if they didn't that was too bad for them.
Kevrob
2018-03-05 05:32:05 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On Sunday, March 4, 2018 at 4:53:00 PM UTC-5, J. Clarke wrote:
> On Sun, 4 Mar 2018 11:31:34 -0800 (PST), Kevrob <***@my-deja.com>
> wrote:
>
> >On Friday, March 2, 2018 at 10:27:41 PM UTC-5, J. Clarke wrote:
> >
> >> The commie pinko idea promulgated by the commie pinko schoolteachers
> >> and university professors is the insidious one--"do your own work or
> >> come to the teacher, don't help each other".
> >
> >US public schools are very into "co-operative learning" these
> >days.
> >
> >https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cooperative_learning
>
> Are they? Or do education theorists just want them to be?
>
Apparently, small-group discussion is a point of emphasis
in the much-maligned Common Core standards. Some kids
learn better working on thei own.

https://www.theatlantic.com/education/archive/2015/09/introverts-at-school-overlook/407467/

> >The "red commies" in the old Soviet Union didn't rely on that,
> >at least not for any scientific or technical field.
>
> According to the red commies I work with (not being facetious--while
> none of them have any love for Communism they grew up under it) the
> teachers for the most part didn't care if the students passed or
> failed. They presented the material and expected the students to get
> it--if they didn't that was too bad for them.

I can think of some large state universities Stateside where
that would have been a common attitude, back in my days
as an undergrad. Make the grade, transfer or flunk. Someone
else will come take your seat.

Kevin R

Kevin R
Lynn McGuire
2018-03-06 21:23:28 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On 3/4/2018 11:32 PM, Kevrob wrote:
> On Sunday, March 4, 2018 at 4:53:00 PM UTC-5, J. Clarke wrote:
>> On Sun, 4 Mar 2018 11:31:34 -0800 (PST), Kevrob <***@my-deja.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On Friday, March 2, 2018 at 10:27:41 PM UTC-5, J. Clarke wrote:
>>>
>>>> The commie pinko idea promulgated by the commie pinko schoolteachers
>>>> and university professors is the insidious one--"do your own work or
>>>> come to the teacher, don't help each other".
>>>
>>> US public schools are very into "co-operative learning" these
>>> days.
>>>
>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cooperative_learning
>>
>> Are they? Or do education theorists just want them to be?
>>
> Apparently, small-group discussion is a point of emphasis
> in the much-maligned Common Core standards. Some kids
> learn better working on thei own.
>
> https://www.theatlantic.com/education/archive/2015/09/introverts-at-school-overlook/407467/
>
>>> The "red commies" in the old Soviet Union didn't rely on that,
>>> at least not for any scientific or technical field.
>>
>> According to the red commies I work with (not being facetious--while
>> none of them have any love for Communism they grew up under it) the
>> teachers for the most part didn't care if the students passed or
>> failed. They presented the material and expected the students to get
>> it--if they didn't that was too bad for them.
>
> I can think of some large state universities Stateside where
> that would have been a common attitude, back in my days
> as an undergrad. Make the grade, transfer or flunk. Someone
> else will come take your seat.
>
> Kevin R
>
> Kevin R

I was told that at Texas A&M University my first week in school.

The fall semester *used* to start on Labor Day as a point to the
students. Students who took the day off were generally derided.

Lynn
Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)
2018-03-06 03:15:24 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On 3/4/18 2:31 PM, Kevrob wrote:
> On Friday, March 2, 2018 at 10:27:41 PM UTC-5, J. Clarke wrote:
>
>> The commie pinko idea promulgated by the commie pinko schoolteachers
>> and university professors is the insidious one--"do your own work or
>> come to the teacher, don't help each other".
>
> US public schools are very into "co-operative learning" these
> days.

Also "commie pinko" -- who talks like that? This isn't 1950. The Cold
War ended long enough ago that people born after the Wall fell have
already started their lifetime careers, gotten married, and started
families.

And if you're a real commie, then "help each other" would be part and
parcel of it. It's Puritan Work Ethic of our fine American Capitalist
society that says "Be a rugged individualist, don't ask anyone for help,
do the work yourself even if you have to go out and make the pencils on
your own!"



--
Sea Wasp
/^\
;;;
Website: http://www.grandcentralarena.com Blog:
http://seawasp.dreamwidth.org
Kevrob
2018-03-06 04:02:24 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On Monday, March 5, 2018 at 10:15:28 PM UTC-5, Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor) wrote:
> On 3/4/18 2:31 PM, Kevrob wrote:
> > On Friday, March 2, 2018 at 10:27:41 PM UTC-5, J. Clarke wrote:
> >
> >> The commie pinko idea promulgated by the commie pinko schoolteachers
> >> and university professors is the insidious one--"do your own work or
> >> come to the teacher, don't help each other".
> >
> > US public schools are very into "co-operative learning" these
> > days.
>
> Also "commie pinko" -- who talks like that?

Sometimes, when my tongue is firmly enough in my cheek, I do.

It's inaccurate though. Commies aren't pink, they're Reds.
Commie-symps are pink, as are socialists, social democrats,
"progressives," etc. The Green Party are watermelons:
green on the outside, pink or red on the inside. Trots are
red, and they'll tell you how they were always the real reds,
while Stalin's bunch weren't, really.

> This isn't 1950. The Cold
> War ended long enough ago that people born after the Wall fell have
> already started their lifetime careers, gotten married, and started
> families.
>

Not every proponent of "progressive education" has
"progressive politics," but that is probably the way
to bet.

Putin and Trump seem intent on reviving the Cold War.

> And if you're a real commie, then "help each other" would be part and
> parcel of it. It's Puritan Work Ethic of our fine American Capitalist
> society that says "Be a rugged individualist, don't ask anyone for help,
> do the work yourself even if you have to go out and make the pencils on
> your own!"
>

The Protestant work ethic comes in other flavors than Puritan.
Arrange the financing and contract out making the pencils works
just fine. In high school, you just had to make an appointment
with Eaglebauer and buy an A" term paper. :)

Kevin R
J. Clarke
2018-03-06 12:03:39 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On Mon, 5 Mar 2018 20:02:24 -0800 (PST), Kevrob <***@my-deja.com>
wrote:

>On Monday, March 5, 2018 at 10:15:28 PM UTC-5, Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor) wrote:
>> On 3/4/18 2:31 PM, Kevrob wrote:
>> > On Friday, March 2, 2018 at 10:27:41 PM UTC-5, J. Clarke wrote:
>> >
>> >> The commie pinko idea promulgated by the commie pinko schoolteachers
>> >> and university professors is the insidious one--"do your own work or
>> >> come to the teacher, don't help each other".
>> >
>> > US public schools are very into "co-operative learning" these
>> > days.
>>
>> Also "commie pinko" -- who talks like that?
>
>Sometimes, when my tongue is firmly enough in my cheek, I do.
>
>It's inaccurate though. Commies aren't pink, they're Reds.
>Commie-symps are pink, as are socialists, social democrats,
>"progressives," etc. The Green Party are watermelons:
>green on the outside, pink or red on the inside. Trots are
>red, and they'll tell you how they were always the real reds,
>while Stalin's bunch weren't, really.
>
>> This isn't 1950. The Cold
>> War ended long enough ago that people born after the Wall fell have
>> already started their lifetime careers, gotten married, and started
>> families.
>>
>
>Not every proponent of "progressive education" has
>"progressive politics," but that is probably the way
>to bet.
>
>Putin and Trump seem intent on reviving the Cold War.

??? I was under the impression that one of the big complaints about
Trump is that he is too close to Putin. I think it's Trump's
opponents who are trying to revive the Cold War--they seem to think
that nuclear annihilation is better than four years of Trump.

I don't really understand what all the whining is about. As long as
Putin doesn't actively alter the vote by hacking voting machines and
the like he should be as free as anybody to gather dirt on candidates,
disseminate it, buy advertising, and do whatever else he feels like to
persuade Americans to vote his way.

>> And if you're a real commie, then "help each other" would be part and
>> parcel of it. It's Puritan Work Ethic of our fine American Capitalist
>> society that says "Be a rugged individualist, don't ask anyone for help,
>> do the work yourself even if you have to go out and make the pencils on
>> your own!"
>>
>
>The Protestant work ethic comes in other flavors than Puritan.
>Arrange the financing and contract out making the pencils works
>just fine. In high school, you just had to make an appointment
>with Eaglebauer and buy an A" term paper. :)
>
>Kevin R
h***@gmail.com
2018-03-06 13:13:09 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On Tuesday, March 6, 2018 at 11:03:44 PM UTC+11, J. Clarke wrote:

> ??? I was under the impression that one of the big complaints about
> Trump is that he is too close to Putin. I think it's Trump's
> opponents who are trying to revive the Cold War--they seem to think
> that nuclear annihilation is better than four years of Trump.
>
> I don't really understand what all the whining is about. As long as
> Putin doesn't actively alter the vote by hacking voting machines and
> the like he should be as free as anybody to gather dirt on candidates,
> disseminate it, buy advertising, and do whatever else he feels like to
> persuade Americans to vote his way.

So your argument is that a dictator's money spends just as well as anybody else's?
Kevrob
2018-03-06 17:17:37 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On Tuesday, March 6, 2018 at 7:03:44 AM UTC-5, J. Clarke wrote:
> On Mon, 5 Mar 2018 20:02:24 -0800 (PST), Kevrob <***@my-deja.com>
> wrote:
>
> >On Monday, March 5, 2018 at 10:15:28 PM UTC-5, Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor) wrote:
> >> On 3/4/18 2:31 PM, Kevrob wrote:
> >> > On Friday, March 2, 2018 at 10:27:41 PM UTC-5, J. Clarke wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> The commie pinko idea promulgated by the commie pinko schoolteachers
> >> >> and university professors is the insidious one--"do your own work or
> >> >> come to the teacher, don't help each other".
> >> >
> >> > US public schools are very into "co-operative learning" these
> >> > days.
> >>
> >> Also "commie pinko" -- who talks like that?
> >
> >Sometimes, when my tongue is firmly enough in my cheek, I do.
> >
> >It's inaccurate though. Commies aren't pink, they're Reds.
> >Commie-symps are pink, as are socialists, social democrats,
> >"progressives," etc. The Green Party are watermelons:
> >green on the outside, pink or red on the inside. Trots are
> >red, and they'll tell you how they were always the real reds,
> >while Stalin's bunch weren't, really.
> >
> >> This isn't 1950. The Cold
> >> War ended long enough ago that people born after the Wall fell have
> >> already started their lifetime careers, gotten married, and started
> >> families.
> >>
> >
> >Not every proponent of "progressive education" has
> >"progressive politics," but that is probably the way
> >to bet.
> >
> >Putin and Trump seem intent on reviving the Cold War.
>
> ??? I was under the impression that one of the big complaints about
> Trump is that he is too close to Putin. I think it's Trump's
> opponents who are trying to revive the Cold War--they seem to think
> that nuclear annihilation is better than four years of Trump.
>
> I don't really understand what all the whining is about. As long as
> Putin doesn't actively alter the vote by hacking voting machines and
> the like he should be as free as anybody to gather dirt on candidates,
> disseminate it, buy advertising, and do whatever else he feels like to
> persuade Americans to vote his way.

It's technically illegal for furriners to make campaign contributions
to American elections, unless they are permanent residents, here.

Arguably, Putin wants to start with the US, and Trump with North Korea.
Kim isn't winning any peace prizes, either.

Kevin R
James Nicoll
2018-03-06 17:18:33 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
In article <c13b4d3a-6a6b-4267-9310-***@googlegroups.com>,
Kevrob <***@my-deja.com> wrote:
>On Tuesday, March 6, 2018 at 7:03:44 AM UTC-5, J. Clarke wrote:
>> On Mon, 5 Mar 2018 20:02:24 -0800 (PST), Kevrob <***@my-deja.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> >On Monday, March 5, 2018 at 10:15:28 PM UTC-5, Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor) wrote:
>> >> On 3/4/18 2:31 PM, Kevrob wrote:
>> >> > On Friday, March 2, 2018 at 10:27:41 PM UTC-5, J. Clarke wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> >> The commie pinko idea promulgated by the commie pinko schoolteachers
>> >> >> and university professors is the insidious one--"do your own work or
>> >> >> come to the teacher, don't help each other".
>> >> >
>> >> > US public schools are very into "co-operative learning" these
>> >> > days.
>> >>
>> >> Also "commie pinko" -- who talks like that?
>> >
>> >Sometimes, when my tongue is firmly enough in my cheek, I do.
>> >
>> >It's inaccurate though. Commies aren't pink, they're Reds.
>> >Commie-symps are pink, as are socialists, social democrats,
>> >"progressives," etc. The Green Party are watermelons:
>> >green on the outside, pink or red on the inside. Trots are
>> >red, and they'll tell you how they were always the real reds,
>> >while Stalin's bunch weren't, really.
>> >
>> >> This isn't 1950. The Cold
>> >> War ended long enough ago that people born after the Wall fell have
>> >> already started their lifetime careers, gotten married, and started
>> >> families.
>> >>
>> >
>> >Not every proponent of "progressive education" has
>> >"progressive politics," but that is probably the way
>> >to bet.
>> >
>> >Putin and Trump seem intent on reviving the Cold War.
>>
>> ??? I was under the impression that one of the big complaints about
>> Trump is that he is too close to Putin. I think it's Trump's
>> opponents who are trying to revive the Cold War--they seem to think
>> that nuclear annihilation is better than four years of Trump.
>>
>> I don't really understand what all the whining is about. As long as
>> Putin doesn't actively alter the vote by hacking voting machines and
>> the like he should be as free as anybody to gather dirt on candidates,
>> disseminate it, buy advertising, and do whatever else he feels like to
>> persuade Americans to vote his way.
>
>It's technically illegal for furriners to make campaign contributions
>to American elections, unless they are permanent residents, here.
>
>Arguably, Putin wants to start with the US, and Trump with North Korea.
>Kim isn't winning any peace prizes, either.
>
>Kevin R
>


--
My reviews can be found at http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/
My Dreamwidth at https://james-davis-nicoll.dreamwidth.org/
My patreon is at https://www.patreon.com/jamesdnicoll
J. Clarke
2018-03-07 03:18:20 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On Tue, 6 Mar 2018 09:17:37 -0800 (PST), Kevrob <***@my-deja.com>
wrote:

>On Tuesday, March 6, 2018 at 7:03:44 AM UTC-5, J. Clarke wrote:
>> On Mon, 5 Mar 2018 20:02:24 -0800 (PST), Kevrob <***@my-deja.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> >On Monday, March 5, 2018 at 10:15:28 PM UTC-5, Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor) wrote:
>> >> On 3/4/18 2:31 PM, Kevrob wrote:
>> >> > On Friday, March 2, 2018 at 10:27:41 PM UTC-5, J. Clarke wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> >> The commie pinko idea promulgated by the commie pinko schoolteachers
>> >> >> and university professors is the insidious one--"do your own work or
>> >> >> come to the teacher, don't help each other".
>> >> >
>> >> > US public schools are very into "co-operative learning" these
>> >> > days.
>> >>
>> >> Also "commie pinko" -- who talks like that?
>> >
>> >Sometimes, when my tongue is firmly enough in my cheek, I do.
>> >
>> >It's inaccurate though. Commies aren't pink, they're Reds.
>> >Commie-symps are pink, as are socialists, social democrats,
>> >"progressives," etc. The Green Party are watermelons:
>> >green on the outside, pink or red on the inside. Trots are
>> >red, and they'll tell you how they were always the real reds,
>> >while Stalin's bunch weren't, really.
>> >
>> >> This isn't 1950. The Cold
>> >> War ended long enough ago that people born after the Wall fell have
>> >> already started their lifetime careers, gotten married, and started
>> >> families.
>> >>
>> >
>> >Not every proponent of "progressive education" has
>> >"progressive politics," but that is probably the way
>> >to bet.
>> >
>> >Putin and Trump seem intent on reviving the Cold War.
>>
>> ??? I was under the impression that one of the big complaints about
>> Trump is that he is too close to Putin. I think it's Trump's
>> opponents who are trying to revive the Cold War--they seem to think
>> that nuclear annihilation is better than four years of Trump.
>>
>> I don't really understand what all the whining is about. As long as
>> Putin doesn't actively alter the vote by hacking voting machines and
>> the like he should be as free as anybody to gather dirt on candidates,
>> disseminate it, buy advertising, and do whatever else he feels like to
>> persuade Americans to vote his way.
>
>It's technically illegal for furriners to make campaign contributions
>to American elections, unless they are permanent residents, here.

Maybe it is, that doesn't make it morally wrong, and if they do it's
not up to the candidate to arrest them.

>Arguably, Putin wants to start with the US, and Trump with North Korea.
>Kim isn't winning any peace prizes, either.

I don't think that Putin wants to get into a shooting war with
somebody who can stomp him into a mudhole, especially with General
Winter apparently looking to retire.

On the other hand, backing Assad is really the right move if the
objective is to keep the lid on instead of creating more chaos.
William Hyde
2018-03-06 20:26:56 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On Monday, March 5, 2018 at 11:02:31 PM UTC-5, Kevrob wrote:
> On Monday, March 5, 2018 at 10:15:28 PM UTC-5, Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor) wrote:
> > On 3/4/18 2:31 PM, Kevrob wrote:
> > > On Friday, March 2, 2018 at 10:27:41 PM UTC-5, J. Clarke wrote:
> > >
> > >> The commie pinko idea promulgated by the commie pinko schoolteachers
> > >> and university professors is the insidious one--"do your own work or
> > >> come to the teacher, don't help each other".
> > >
> > > US public schools are very into "co-operative learning" these
> > > days.
> >
> > Also "commie pinko" -- who talks like that?
>
> Sometimes, when my tongue is firmly enough in my cheek, I do.
>
> It's inaccurate though. Commies aren't pink, they're Reds.
> Commie-symps are pink, as are socialists, social democrats,
> "progressives," etc. The Green Party are watermelons:
> green on the outside, pink or red on the inside.

I thought dual colour insults were comparatively recent, but apparently "Radish" was used in 1919 to describe Bolshevik leaders who were living very well while many were starving.

William Hyde
J. Clarke
2018-03-06 11:54:58 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On Mon, 5 Mar 2018 22:15:24 -0500, "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)"
<***@sgeinc.invalid.com> wrote:

>On 3/4/18 2:31 PM, Kevrob wrote:
>> On Friday, March 2, 2018 at 10:27:41 PM UTC-5, J. Clarke wrote:
>>
>>> The commie pinko idea promulgated by the commie pinko schoolteachers
>>> and university professors is the insidious one--"do your own work or
>>> come to the teacher, don't help each other".
>>
>> US public schools are very into "co-operative learning" these
>> days.
>
> Also "commie pinko" -- who talks like that? This isn't 1950. The Cold
>War ended long enough ago that people born after the Wall fell have
>already started their lifetime careers, gotten married, and started
>families.

I note that you trimmed the first reference to "commie pinko" to which
I was responding.

> And if you're a real commie, then "help each other" would be part and
>parcel of it. It's Puritan Work Ethic of our fine American Capitalist
>society that says "Be a rugged individualist, don't ask anyone for help,
>do the work yourself even if you have to go out and make the pencils on
>your own!"

You might want to learn something of Communism as it is practiced.
Yes, you are supposed to help each other by ratting out anybody who
does anything that the government doesn't like.
Gary R. Schmidt
2018-03-06 14:14:08 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On 06/03/2018 22:54, J. Clarke wrote:
> On Mon, 5 Mar 2018 22:15:24 -0500, "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)"
> <***@sgeinc.invalid.com> wrote:
>
>> On 3/4/18 2:31 PM, Kevrob wrote:
>>> On Friday, March 2, 2018 at 10:27:41 PM UTC-5, J. Clarke wrote:
>>>
>>>> The commie pinko idea promulgated by the commie pinko schoolteachers
>>>> and university professors is the insidious one--"do your own work or
>>>> come to the teacher, don't help each other".
>>>
>>> US public schools are very into "co-operative learning" these
>>> days.
>>
>> Also "commie pinko" -- who talks like that? This isn't 1950. The Cold
>> War ended long enough ago that people born after the Wall fell have
>> already started their lifetime careers, gotten married, and started
>> families.
>
> I note that you trimmed the first reference to "commie pinko" to which
> I was responding.
>
>> And if you're a real commie, then "help each other" would be part and
>> parcel of it. It's Puritan Work Ethic of our fine American Capitalist
>> society that says "Be a rugged individualist, don't ask anyone for help,
>> do the work yourself even if you have to go out and make the pencils on
>> your own!"
>
> You might want to learn something of Communism as it is practiced.
> Yes, you are supposed to help each other by ratting out anybody who
> does anything that the government doesn't like.
>
A USAian defining Communism - so very like a virgin defining
intercourse, but so, so very much further from accurate.

Cheers,
Gary B-)

P.S. I have cousins who were STASI informants, and Colonel-equivalents...

--
When men talk to their friends, they insult each other.
They don't really mean it.
When women talk to their friends, they compliment each other.
They don't mean it either.
J. Clarke
2018-03-07 03:20:46 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On Wed, 7 Mar 2018 01:14:08 +1100, "Gary R. Schmidt"
<***@acm.org> wrote:

>On 06/03/2018 22:54, J. Clarke wrote:
>> On Mon, 5 Mar 2018 22:15:24 -0500, "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)"
>> <***@sgeinc.invalid.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On 3/4/18 2:31 PM, Kevrob wrote:
>>>> On Friday, March 2, 2018 at 10:27:41 PM UTC-5, J. Clarke wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> The commie pinko idea promulgated by the commie pinko schoolteachers
>>>>> and university professors is the insidious one--"do your own work or
>>>>> come to the teacher, don't help each other".
>>>>
>>>> US public schools are very into "co-operative learning" these
>>>> days.
>>>
>>> Also "commie pinko" -- who talks like that? This isn't 1950. The Cold
>>> War ended long enough ago that people born after the Wall fell have
>>> already started their lifetime careers, gotten married, and started
>>> families.
>>
>> I note that you trimmed the first reference to "commie pinko" to which
>> I was responding.
>>
>>> And if you're a real commie, then "help each other" would be part and
>>> parcel of it. It's Puritan Work Ethic of our fine American Capitalist
>>> society that says "Be a rugged individualist, don't ask anyone for help,
>>> do the work yourself even if you have to go out and make the pencils on
>>> your own!"
>>
>> You might want to learn something of Communism as it is practiced.
>> Yes, you are supposed to help each other by ratting out anybody who
>> does anything that the government doesn't like.
>>
>A USAian defining Communism - so very like a virgin defining
>intercourse, but so, so very much further from accurate.
>
> Cheers,
> Gary B-)
>
>P.S. I have cousins who were STASI informants, and Colonel-equivalents...

In other wordes they helped each other by ratting out anybody who did
anything the government didn like. So where is the issue?
Gary R. Schmidt
2018-03-07 04:28:08 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On 07/03/2018 14:20, J. Clarke wrote:
> On Wed, 7 Mar 2018 01:14:08 +1100, "Gary R. Schmidt"
> <***@acm.org> wrote:
>
>> On 06/03/2018 22:54, J. Clarke wrote:
>>> On Mon, 5 Mar 2018 22:15:24 -0500, "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)"
>>> <***@sgeinc.invalid.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 3/4/18 2:31 PM, Kevrob wrote:
>>>>> On Friday, March 2, 2018 at 10:27:41 PM UTC-5, J. Clarke wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> The commie pinko idea promulgated by the commie pinko schoolteachers
>>>>>> and university professors is the insidious one--"do your own work or
>>>>>> come to the teacher, don't help each other".
>>>>>
>>>>> US public schools are very into "co-operative learning" these
>>>>> days.
>>>>
>>>> Also "commie pinko" -- who talks like that? This isn't 1950. The Cold
>>>> War ended long enough ago that people born after the Wall fell have
>>>> already started their lifetime careers, gotten married, and started
>>>> families.
>>>
>>> I note that you trimmed the first reference to "commie pinko" to which
>>> I was responding.
>>>
>>>> And if you're a real commie, then "help each other" would be part and
>>>> parcel of it. It's Puritan Work Ethic of our fine American Capitalist
>>>> society that says "Be a rugged individualist, don't ask anyone for help,
>>>> do the work yourself even if you have to go out and make the pencils on
>>>> your own!"
>>>
>>> You might want to learn something of Communism as it is practiced.
>>> Yes, you are supposed to help each other by ratting out anybody who
>>> does anything that the government doesn't like.
>>>
>> A USAian defining Communism - so very like a virgin defining
>> intercourse, but so, so very much further from accurate.
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Gary B-)
>>
>> P.S. I have cousins who were STASI informants, and Colonel-equivalents...
>
> In other wordes they helped each other by ratting out anybody who did
> anything the government didn like. So where is the issue?
>
No, they usually spent their time mis-directing the Soviets, and dealing
with school children calling in complaints about their teachers the day
before exams.

So you've displayed your lack of knowledge, again. Don't try and talk
about things you know less than nothing about.

Cheers,
Gary B-)

--
When men talk to their friends, they insult each other.
They don't really mean it.
When women talk to their friends, they compliment each other.
They don't mean it either.
J. Clarke
2018-03-07 05:19:18 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On Wed, 7 Mar 2018 15:28:08 +1100, "Gary R. Schmidt"
<***@acm.org> wrote:

>On 07/03/2018 14:20, J. Clarke wrote:
>> On Wed, 7 Mar 2018 01:14:08 +1100, "Gary R. Schmidt"
>> <***@acm.org> wrote:
>>
>>> On 06/03/2018 22:54, J. Clarke wrote:
>>>> On Mon, 5 Mar 2018 22:15:24 -0500, "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)"
>>>> <***@sgeinc.invalid.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 3/4/18 2:31 PM, Kevrob wrote:
>>>>>> On Friday, March 2, 2018 at 10:27:41 PM UTC-5, J. Clarke wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The commie pinko idea promulgated by the commie pinko schoolteachers
>>>>>>> and university professors is the insidious one--"do your own work or
>>>>>>> come to the teacher, don't help each other".
>>>>>>
>>>>>> US public schools are very into "co-operative learning" these
>>>>>> days.
>>>>>
>>>>> Also "commie pinko" -- who talks like that? This isn't 1950. The Cold
>>>>> War ended long enough ago that people born after the Wall fell have
>>>>> already started their lifetime careers, gotten married, and started
>>>>> families.
>>>>
>>>> I note that you trimmed the first reference to "commie pinko" to which
>>>> I was responding.
>>>>
>>>>> And if you're a real commie, then "help each other" would be part and
>>>>> parcel of it. It's Puritan Work Ethic of our fine American Capitalist
>>>>> society that says "Be a rugged individualist, don't ask anyone for help,
>>>>> do the work yourself even if you have to go out and make the pencils on
>>>>> your own!"
>>>>
>>>> You might want to learn something of Communism as it is practiced.
>>>> Yes, you are supposed to help each other by ratting out anybody who
>>>> does anything that the government doesn't like.
>>>>
>>> A USAian defining Communism - so very like a virgin defining
>>> intercourse, but so, so very much further from accurate.
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>> Gary B-)
>>>
>>> P.S. I have cousins who were STASI informants, and Colonel-equivalents...
>>
>> In other wordes they helped each other by ratting out anybody who did
>> anything the government didn like. So where is the issue?
>>
>No, they usually spent their time mis-directing the Soviets, and dealing
>with school children calling in complaints about their teachers the day
>before exams.

Some "informants" they were.

>So you've displayed your lack of knowledge, again. Don't try and talk
>about things you know less than nothing about.

Don't try to tell other people what to talk about. That might fly in
the Soviet Union if you're a colonel in the thought police, but it
doesn't fly on USENET.
Robert Carnegie
2018-03-06 21:23:50 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On Tuesday, 6 March 2018 11:55:02 UTC, J. Clarke wrote:
> On Mon, 5 Mar 2018 22:15:24 -0500, "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)"
> <***@sgeinc.invalid.com> wrote:
>
> >On 3/4/18 2:31 PM, Kevrob wrote:
> >> On Friday, March 2, 2018 at 10:27:41 PM UTC-5, J. Clarke wrote:
> >>
> >>> The commie pinko idea promulgated by the commie pinko schoolteachers
> >>> and university professors is the insidious one--"do your own work or
> >>> come to the teacher, don't help each other".
> >>
> >> US public schools are very into "co-operative learning" these
> >> days.
> >
> > Also "commie pinko" -- who talks like that? This isn't 1950. The Cold
> >War ended long enough ago that people born after the Wall fell have
> >already started their lifetime careers, gotten married, and started
> >families.
>
> I note that you trimmed the first reference to "commie pinko" to which
> I was responding.

"fag commie talk" - about cooperation - was my line.
m***@sky.com
2018-03-03 06:39:55 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On Friday, March 2, 2018 at 9:44:51 PM UTC, Robert Carnegie wrote:
(trimmed)
>
> I think Slytherin House has an ethos stated early on -
> "perhaps in Slytherin - You'll make your real friends -
> Those cunning folk use any means - To achieve their ends."
> That, and its founder's doctrine of racial purity,
> all-magical families. But are these real friends
> or are they basically selfish and just cooperating
> when it's convenient?
>
(trimmed)
Decades ago now, I knew somebody who worked in a Civil Service "Fast Stream". This employs well qualified graduates who have passed a variety of selection tests and gives them a succession of jobs partly intended just as learning experiences and tests with the intention of producing future leaders for a Civil Service Department. They are also given lots of opportunities to network and get to know each other. He said that some people on the scheme were a bit worried that they were turning into a self-serving clique and getting by on their connections instead of their abilities - but others thought that this was the whole point of the scheme.

I think there are similarities here to Slytherin and to Slughorn. Yes, there a possibility of unfairness. But, perhaps society works better if leaders in different areas know each other and can trust each other - or at least are familiar with each other's reputations.

(For contrast, I'm currently reading Fukuyama's "The Origins of Political Order" and he seems to be saying that progress in society is dependent on getting away from a state in which decisions were made largely based on ties of kinship and personal relationships).
Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)
2018-03-02 22:53:48 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On 3/2/18 2:31 PM, ***@sky.com wrote:
> The blog "Marginal Revolution" pointed me at https://www.overcomingbias.com/2018/03/beware-covert-war-morality-tales.html, which is to be parsed as Beware (covert war) morality tales - that is, spy stories and similar. He seems to me somewhat confused between a recent worrying trend and an age-old pattern, but he seems to think that too many stories today are promoting subversive or disruptive actions. I think it mostly caught my eye because of a passage in "Challenges of the Deeps" which lays out a much more attractive subtext:
>
> "Like many other villains in stories we've all read, the thing that really gave us a chance against him was that there were more of us than there were of him, and we were willing to work together and trust each other."
>

Wow, seeing my work referenced in an actual discussion that isn't OF my
work! :)


--
Sea Wasp
/^\
;;;
Website: http://www.grandcentralarena.com Blog:
http://seawasp.dreamwidth.org
m***@sky.com
2018-03-03 14:05:04 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On Friday, March 2, 2018 at 10:53:52 PM UTC, Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor) wrote:
> On 3/2/18 2:31 PM, ***@sky.com wrote:
> > The blog "Marginal Revolution" pointed me at https://www.overcomingbias.com/2018/03/beware-covert-war-morality-tales.html, which is to be parsed as Beware (covert war) morality tales - that is, spy stories and similar. He seems to me somewhat confused between a recent worrying trend and an age-old pattern, but he seems to think that too many stories today are promoting subversive or disruptive actions. I think it mostly caught my eye because of a passage in "Challenges of the Deeps" which lays out a much more attractive subtext:
> >
> > "Like many other villains in stories we've all read, the thing that really gave us a chance against him was that there were more of us than there were of him, and we were willing to work together and trust each other."
> >
>
> Wow, seeing my work referenced in an actual discussion that isn't OF my
> work! :)
>
>
> --
> Sea Wasp
> /^\
> ;;;
> Website: http://www.grandcentralarena.com Blog:
> http://seawasp.dreamwidth.org

Good for you! I've just finished re-reading Grand Central Arena/Spheres of Influence/Challenges of the Deep, and really enjoyed them, especially DuQuesne. In real life, I'd not want to attract the attention of ANY version of DuQuesne, but he does make for entertaining stories.
Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)
2018-03-03 14:50:12 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On 3/3/18 9:05 AM, ***@sky.com wrote:
> On Friday, March 2, 2018 at 10:53:52 PM UTC, Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor) wrote:
>> On 3/2/18 2:31 PM, ***@sky.com wrote:
>>> The blog "Marginal Revolution" pointed me at https://www.overcomingbias.com/2018/03/beware-covert-war-morality-tales.html, which is to be parsed as Beware (covert war) morality tales - that is, spy stories and similar. He seems to me somewhat confused between a recent worrying trend and an age-old pattern, but he seems to think that too many stories today are promoting subversive or disruptive actions. I think it mostly caught my eye because of a passage in "Challenges of the Deeps" which lays out a much more attractive subtext:
>>>
>>> "Like many other villains in stories we've all read, the thing that really gave us a chance against him was that there were more of us than there were of him, and we were willing to work together and trust each other."
>>>
>>
>> Wow, seeing my work referenced in an actual discussion that isn't OF my
>> work! :)
>>

> Good for you! I've just finished re-reading Grand Central Arena/Spheres of Influence/Challenges of the
> Deep, and really enjoyed them, especially DuQuesne. In real life, I'd not want to attract the attention
> of ANY version of DuQuesne, but he does make for entertaining stories.


Well, I wouldn't want to ever attract his NEGATIVE attention, but at
least the Arenaverse version I wouldn't mind attracting his POSITIVE
attention, because that'd mean I was, somehow, pretty darn awesome.

I would never want him to realize I'm the Author, though. Most authors
would never actually want to meet their creations.



--
Sea Wasp
/^\
;;;
Website: http://www.grandcentralarena.com Blog:
http://seawasp.dreamwidth.org
Juho Julkunen
2018-03-03 20:35:03 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
In article <p7cklt$oi7$***@dont-email.me>, ***@sgeinc.invalid.com
says...
>
> On 3/2/18 2:31 PM, ***@sky.com wrote:
> > The blog "Marginal Revolution" pointed me at https://www.overcomingbias.com/2018/03/beware-covert-war-morality-tales.html, which is to be parsed as Beware (covert war) morality tales - that is, spy stories and similar. He seems to me somewhat confused between a recent worrying trend and an age-old pattern, but he seems to think that too many stories today are promoting subversive or disruptive actions. I think it mostly caught my eye because of a passage in
"Challenges of the Deeps" which lays out a much more attractive subtext:
> >
> > "Like many other villains in stories we've all read, the thing that really gave us a chance against him was that there were more of us than there were of him, and we were willing to work together and trust each other."
> >
>
> Wow, seeing my work referenced in an actual discussion that isn't OF my
> work! :)

That is a worthy quote right there.

--
Juho Julkunen
Jack Bohn
2018-03-03 00:31:08 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
>"Like many other villains in stories we've all read, the thing that really gave us a >chance against him was that there were more of us than there were of him, and we were >willing to work together and trust each other." 

The first story of Doctor Who was set in a tribe of "cavemen" ruled by a strongarm dictator. Our group explained to them that, yes, he was stronger than anyone in the tribe, but he was not stronger than everyone in the tribe.

--
-Jack
Dorothy J Heydt
2018-03-03 01:22:36 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
In article <5c0421d5-1302-4545-84b9-***@googlegroups.com>,
Jack Bohn <***@gmail.com> wrote:
>>"Like many other villains in stories we've all read, the thing that
>really gave us a >chance against him was that there were more of us than
>there were of him, and we were >willing to work together and trust each
>other." 
>
>The first story of Doctor Who was set in a tribe of "cavemen" ruled by a
>strongarm dictator. Our group explained to them that, yes, he was
>stronger than anyone in the tribe, but he was not stronger than everyone
>in the tribe.

I have that episode on DVD (it came bundled with _Adventures in
Time and Space_. I haven't watched past the first couple of
minutes ... I cannot believe modern (biologically, not
technically) humans having only one person in the tribe who knows
how to make fire, and who dies before telling anybody else.

But that's a good point they made.

--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
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