Discussion:
"25 Best Deep Space Science Fiction Books"
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Lynn McGuire
2017-05-03 06:19:45 UTC
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"25 Best Deep Space Science Fiction Books"
http://best-sci-fi-books.com/25-best-deep-space-science-fiction-books/

I have read only 13 of these awesome 25 books. "hangs head in shame"

I would have sworn that I read _Startide Rising_ but I do not see it on
my shelves.

Lynn
David Johnston
2017-05-03 06:29:34 UTC
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Post by Lynn McGuire
"25 Best Deep Space Science Fiction Books"
http://best-sci-fi-books.com/25-best-deep-space-science-fiction-books/
I have read only 13 of these awesome 25 books. "hangs head in shame"
I would have sworn that I read _Startide Rising_ but I do not see it on
my shelves.
Lynn
What, don't you ever read library books?

I've read Anathem, although I thought my time could have been better
spent. It never even gets close to deep space. Doesn't get any further
than orbit.
Jaimie Vandenbergh
2017-05-03 13:21:14 UTC
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On Wed, 3 May 2017 00:29:34 -0600, David Johnston
Post by David Johnston
Post by Lynn McGuire
"25 Best Deep Space Science Fiction Books"
http://best-sci-fi-books.com/25-best-deep-space-science-fiction-books/
I have read only 13 of these awesome 25 books. "hangs head in shame"
I would have sworn that I read _Startide Rising_ but I do not see it on
my shelves.
Lynn
What, don't you ever read library books?
I've read Anathem, although I thought my time could have been better
spent. It never even gets close to deep space. Doesn't get any further
than orbit.
"Deep space" apparently means "other planets" to the article author.

Still, pretty good selection of books there, going by the 15 I've read,
and three others are on my Strategic Book Reserve.

Damned if I can remember what happens in _Cyteen_ though. If all the
books weren't in boxes out of the way while we decorate and build new
(more) shelving, I'd shuffle that back over to the "re-read" stack.

Cheers - Jaimie
--
"The problem is not that the world is full of fools, it's that lightning
isn't being distributed correctly." - Mark Twain
Ted Nolan <tednolan>
2017-05-03 14:10:37 UTC
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Post by Jaimie Vandenbergh
On Wed, 3 May 2017 00:29:34 -0600, David Johnston
Post by David Johnston
Post by Lynn McGuire
"25 Best Deep Space Science Fiction Books"
http://best-sci-fi-books.com/25-best-deep-space-science-fiction-books/
I have read only 13 of these awesome 25 books. "hangs head in shame"
I would have sworn that I read _Startide Rising_ but I do not see it on
my shelves.
Lynn
What, don't you ever read library books?
I've read Anathem, although I thought my time could have been better
spent. It never even gets close to deep space. Doesn't get any further
than orbit.
"Deep space" apparently means "other planets" to the article author.
Still, pretty good selection of books there, going by the 15 I've read,
and three others are on my Strategic Book Reserve.
Damned if I can remember what happens in _Cyteen_ though. If all the
books weren't in boxes out of the way while we decorate and build new
(more) shelving, I'd shuffle that back over to the "re-read" stack.
I remember _Cyteen_ as oblique even for Cherryh. And it had nothing
to do with cybernetically enhanced teens.

_Tau Zero_ is *the* deep space book.
--
------
columbiaclosings.com
What's not in Columbia anymore..
David Johnston
2017-05-03 15:31:51 UTC
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Post by Jaimie Vandenbergh
On Wed, 3 May 2017 00:29:34 -0600, David Johnston
Post by David Johnston
Post by Lynn McGuire
"25 Best Deep Space Science Fiction Books"
http://best-sci-fi-books.com/25-best-deep-space-science-fiction-books/
I have read only 13 of these awesome 25 books. "hangs head in shame"
I would have sworn that I read _Startide Rising_ but I do not see it on
my shelves.
Lynn
What, don't you ever read library books?
I've read Anathem, although I thought my time could have been better
spent. It never even gets close to deep space. Doesn't get any further
than orbit.
"Deep space" apparently means "other planets" to the article author.
Yeah but Anathem isn't on another planet. It's on an alternate universe
Earth. That's the big twist at the end, that the "aliens" aren't even
aliens.
Post by Jaimie Vandenbergh
Still, pretty good selection of books there, going by the 15 I've read,
and three others are on my Strategic Book Reserve.
Damned if I can remember what happens in _Cyteen_ though.
Something something clones something. I'm not sure anything happens in
the sense of a plot.


If all the
Post by Jaimie Vandenbergh
books weren't in boxes out of the way while we decorate and build new
(more) shelving, I'd shuffle that back over to the "re-read" stack.
Cheers - Jaimie
Dorothy J Heydt
2017-05-03 16:59:15 UTC
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In article <oecsvq$r2t$***@dont-email.me>,
David Johnston <***@block.com> wrote:
[Cyteen]
Post by David Johnston
Something something clones something. I'm not sure anything happens in
the sense of a plot.
Oh yeah there's a plot, in both senses of the word (story;
deep-hidden conspiracy). See my thumbnail sketch elsewhere on
this thread.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Dorothy J Heydt
2017-05-03 16:57:26 UTC
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Post by Jaimie Vandenbergh
Damned if I can remember what happens in _Cyteen_ though. If all the
books weren't in boxes out of the way while we decorate and build new
(more) shelving, I'd shuffle that back over to the "re-read" stack.
Human colony living (precariously) on world with biochemistry
severely hostile to Earth-life. Low human population leads to
creation of many many specialized human clones, who are
conditioned from birth by "tape" to do whatever they're designed
to do. Top-notch human designer of clone biology and education
is murdered. What do her colleagues do now? Try to clone her
and re-educate her to be a copy of herself. Doesn't work out as
they anticipated.

I like it; it's in my reread-once-a-year category. You may find
it contains too many infodumps; so do I; now that I know the
context I skip them and move on to the action.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
James Nicoll
2017-05-03 17:29:15 UTC
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Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Jaimie Vandenbergh
Damned if I can remember what happens in _Cyteen_ though. If all the
books weren't in boxes out of the way while we decorate and build new
(more) shelving, I'd shuffle that back over to the "re-read" stack.
Human colony living (precariously) on world with biochemistry
severely hostile to Earth-life. Low human population leads to
creation of many many specialized human clones, who are
conditioned from birth by "tape" to do whatever they're designed
to do. Top-notch human designer of clone biology and education
is murdered. What do her colleagues do now? Try to clone her
and re-educate her to be a copy of herself. Doesn't work out as
they anticipated.
God, I hate the Union. F*ing slavers.

CYTEEN demostrates a fairly common cognitive flaw, the inability to
step back and ask "have we considered the consequences of success?"
The two basic outcomes were "another failed clone project" or "Emory,
Mark II, only where all the tragedies in her original's life were
accidental, this time she will know they were on purpose." So, a
highly motivated genius with built in grudges.
--
My reviews can be found at http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/
My Livejournal at http://www.livejournal.com/users/james_nicoll
My patreon is at https://www.patreon.com/jamesdnicoll
Dorothy J Heydt
2017-05-03 17:34:40 UTC
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Post by James Nicoll
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Jaimie Vandenbergh
Damned if I can remember what happens in _Cyteen_ though. If all the
books weren't in boxes out of the way while we decorate and build new
(more) shelving, I'd shuffle that back over to the "re-read" stack.
Human colony living (precariously) on world with biochemistry
severely hostile to Earth-life. Low human population leads to
creation of many many specialized human clones, who are
conditioned from birth by "tape" to do whatever they're designed
to do. Top-notch human designer of clone biology and education
is murdered. What do her colleagues do now? Try to clone her
and re-educate her to be a copy of herself. Doesn't work out as
they anticipated.
God, I hate the Union. F*ing slavers.
Oh, yeah.
Post by James Nicoll
CYTEEN demostrates a fairly common cognitive flaw, the inability to
step back and ask "have we considered the consequences of success?"
The two basic outcomes were "another failed clone project" or "Emory,
Mark II, only where all the tragedies in her original's life were
accidental, this time she will know they were on purpose." So, a
highly motivated genius with built in grudges.
Oh, yeah. As they sowed, so did they reap, and the fact that AII
is a fairly decent human is one of those unintended consequences
that they *REALLY* didn't intend.

I like _Cyteen_ *because* she turns into a fairly decent human in
spite of all the nastiness. Ruthless, yes, but if she'd had any
ruth they would've squashed her and started over.

/e declines to imagine how many times
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Jaimie Vandenbergh
2017-05-03 17:42:46 UTC
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Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Jaimie Vandenbergh
Damned if I can remember what happens in _Cyteen_ though. If all the
books weren't in boxes out of the way while we decorate and build new
(more) shelving, I'd shuffle that back over to the "re-read" stack.
Human colony living (precariously) on world with biochemistry
severely hostile to Earth-life. Low human population leads to
creation of many many specialized human clones, who are
conditioned from birth by "tape" to do whatever they're designed
to do. Top-notch human designer of clone biology and education
is murdered. What do her colleagues do now? Try to clone her
and re-educate her to be a copy of herself. Doesn't work out as
they anticipated.
Ah, that's the one. Thanks for the memory tape.
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
I like it; it's in my reread-once-a-year category. You may find
it contains too many infodumps; so do I; now that I know the
context I skip them and move on to the action.
Yeah, I remember that too. Fortunately I usually like infodumps, or
perhaps more accurately I tend to not read authors with boring-to-me
infodumps.

Cheers - Jaimie
--
"It was half way to Rivendell when the drugs began to take hold"
Hunter S Tolkien - "Fear and Loathing in Barad Dur"
m***@sky.com
2017-05-03 17:47:39 UTC
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Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Jaimie Vandenbergh
Damned if I can remember what happens in _Cyteen_ though. If all the
books weren't in boxes out of the way while we decorate and build new
(more) shelving, I'd shuffle that back over to the "re-read" stack.
Human colony living (precariously) on world with biochemistry
severely hostile to Earth-life. Low human population leads to
creation of many many specialized human clones, who are
conditioned from birth by "tape" to do whatever they're designed
to do. Top-notch human designer of clone biology and education
is murdered. What do her colleagues do now? Try to clone her
and re-educate her to be a copy of herself. Doesn't work out as
they anticipated.
I like it; it's in my reread-once-a-year category. You may find
it contains too many infodumps; so do I; now that I know the
context I skip them and move on to the action.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Both Cyteen and its sequel Regenesis have a plot - Cyteen could be read as a detective novel if you really wanted to. As with the politics of the Chanur novels, I have never quite worked out whether Cherryh is being really clever and subtle, or just obscure. The world-building is interesting enough that the plot isn't the only thing around. I don't reread them religiously every year, but their the sort of books I'd happily pack as my only SF when going away even though I would be re-reading them.
Greg Goss
2017-05-03 14:19:05 UTC
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Post by David Johnston
Post by Lynn McGuire
"25 Best Deep Space Science Fiction Books"
http://best-sci-fi-books.com/25-best-deep-space-science-fiction-books/
I have read only 13 of these awesome 25 books. "hangs head in shame"
I would have sworn that I read _Startide Rising_ but I do not see it on
my shelves.
Lynn
What, don't you ever read library books?
Back when I was willing to haul paper around, I found it more
expensive to read library books than to just buy them used. Lost book
and late book fines can be expensive, and I'm not the most organized
guy around.
--
We are geeks. Resistance is voltage over current.
Lynn McGuire
2017-05-03 17:41:39 UTC
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Post by David Johnston
Post by Lynn McGuire
"25 Best Deep Space Science Fiction Books"
http://best-sci-fi-books.com/25-best-deep-space-science-fiction-books/
I have read only 13 of these awesome 25 books. "hangs head in shame"
I would have sworn that I read _Startide Rising_ but I do not see it on
my shelves.
Lynn
What, don't you ever read library books?
I've read Anathem, although I thought my time could have been better
spent. It never even gets close to deep space. Doesn't get any further
than orbit.
I read all library books until 1973 or so when I was allowed to purchase
books (we were living with my grandparents for a couple of years while
my dad started his business). And of course, there is the great flood
of 1989 where I lost half of my books. But _Startide Rising_ was
originally published in 1983 so the chance of me buying it should have
been fairly good.

Lynn
Gene Wirchenko
2017-05-03 20:05:16 UTC
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On Wed, 3 May 2017 00:29:34 -0600, David Johnston
Post by David Johnston
Post by Lynn McGuire
"25 Best Deep Space Science Fiction Books"
http://best-sci-fi-books.com/25-best-deep-space-science-fiction-books/
I have read only 13 of these awesome 25 books. "hangs head in shame"
I would have sworn that I read _Startide Rising_ but I do not see it on
my shelves.
What, don't you ever read library books?
<sniff style="offended">I *have* a library.</sniff>

[snip]

Sincerely,

Gene Wirchenko
Lynn McGuire
2017-05-03 21:41:08 UTC
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Post by Jaimie Vandenbergh
On Wed, 3 May 2017 00:29:34 -0600, David Johnston
Post by David Johnston
Post by Lynn McGuire
"25 Best Deep Space Science Fiction Books"
http://best-sci-fi-books.com/25-best-deep-space-science-fiction-books/
I have read only 13 of these awesome 25 books. "hangs head in shame"
I would have sworn that I read _Startide Rising_ but I do not see it on
my shelves.
What, don't you ever read library books?
<sniff style="offended">I *have* a library.</sniff>
[snip]
Sincerely,
Gene Wirchenko
+1

But the wife uses the public library extensively. And rents audio books
for me there occasionally.

Lynn
Dimensional Traveler
2017-05-03 22:06:04 UTC
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Post by Jaimie Vandenbergh
On Wed, 3 May 2017 00:29:34 -0600, David Johnston
Post by David Johnston
Post by Lynn McGuire
"25 Best Deep Space Science Fiction Books"
http://best-sci-fi-books.com/25-best-deep-space-science-fiction-books/
I have read only 13 of these awesome 25 books. "hangs head in shame"
I would have sworn that I read _Startide Rising_ but I do not see it on
my shelves.
What, don't you ever read library books?
<sniff style="offended">I *have* a library.</sniff>
[snip]
And pretty much be definition so does anyone who has all the books on
these "25 best yadda-yadda" lists. :)
--
Some days you just don't have enough middle fingers!
Dorothy J Heydt
2017-05-03 12:44:40 UTC
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Post by Lynn McGuire
"25 Best Deep Space Science Fiction Books"
http://best-sci-fi-books.com/25-best-deep-space-science-fiction-books/
I have read only 13 of these awesome 25 books. "hangs head in shame"
I would have sworn that I read _Startide Rising_ but I do not see it on
my shelves.
Well, now, for a change, I've read eight of those. Eight and a
half, if you count _A Fire Upon the Deep_ which I started and
didn't finish. Nine and a half if the old BBC version of
_Hitchhiker's Guide_ counts. :)

This is not one of James's lists, is it? Whose is it?
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
James Nicoll
2017-05-03 13:42:41 UTC
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Post by Lynn McGuire
"25 Best Deep Space Science Fiction Books"
http://best-sci-fi-books.com/25-best-deep-space-science-fiction-books/
I have read only 13 of these awesome 25 books. "hangs head in shame"
I would have sworn that I read _Startide Rising_ but I do not see it on
my shelves.
Brin pulled off an interesting narrative trick in that: I read it when
I was a guard, working at a factory that was having a strike. There was
some ill will so every time I put the book down to walk the factory, there
was a change I would be ambushed and beaten before I got back. Really
added to the sense of anticipation.
--
My reviews can be found at http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/
My Livejournal at http://www.livejournal.com/users/james_nicoll
My patreon is at https://www.patreon.com/jamesdnicoll
Robert Carnegie
2017-05-03 13:43:09 UTC
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Post by Lynn McGuire
"25 Best Deep Space Science Fiction Books"
http://best-sci-fi-books.com/25-best-deep-space-science-fiction-books/
I have read only 13 of these awesome 25 books. "hangs head in shame"
I would have sworn that I read _Startide Rising_ but I do not see it on
my shelves.
For a while down the list I had straight "nos".
I've read _Gateway_, _Mote_ I think, _Hitch Hiker_,
and _Dune_.

I've bounced off _Fire_ and _Rev_. I'm not sure
about _Solaris_, so, do both films and a two-part
BBC radio production count?
James Nicoll
2017-05-03 14:03:32 UTC
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Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by Lynn McGuire
"25 Best Deep Space Science Fiction Books"
http://best-sci-fi-books.com/25-best-deep-space-science-fiction-books/
I have read only 13 of these awesome 25 books. "hangs head in shame"
I would have sworn that I read _Startide Rising_ but I do not see it on
my shelves.
For a while down the list I had straight "nos".
I've read _Gateway_, _Mote_ I think, _Hitch Hiker_,
and _Dune_.
I've bounced off _Fire_ and _Rev_. I'm not sure
about _Solaris_, so, do both films and a two-part
BBC radio production count?
I've read all of them, of course.

It's interesting that this seems to have a slight preponderance of one
gender, much as some of my lists have had, and yet for some reason it's
not deemed worth discussing. Why is that?
--
My reviews can be found at http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/
My Livejournal at http://www.livejournal.com/users/james_nicoll
My patreon is at https://www.patreon.com/jamesdnicoll
Peter Trei
2017-05-03 16:00:31 UTC
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Post by James Nicoll
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by Lynn McGuire
"25 Best Deep Space Science Fiction Books"
http://best-sci-fi-books.com/25-best-deep-space-science-fiction-books/
I have read only 13 of these awesome 25 books. "hangs head in shame"
I would have sworn that I read _Startide Rising_ but I do not see it on
my shelves.
For a while down the list I had straight "nos".
I've read _Gateway_, _Mote_ I think, _Hitch Hiker_,
and _Dune_.
I've bounced off _Fire_ and _Rev_. I'm not sure
about _Solaris_, so, do both films and a two-part
BBC radio production count?
I've read all of them, of course.
It's interesting that this seems to have a slight preponderance of one
gender, much as some of my lists have had, and yet for some reason it's
not deemed worth discussing. Why is that?
I've read 16.

Jim: Your coyness about the gender bias in your lists isn't cute, its tiresome.

This list had 4 books by women out of 25. That's certainly low if you look the
current active population of authors. But can you show that it's low over the
whole period this list covers, which goes back 60 years?

pt
Lynn McGuire
2017-05-03 17:45:30 UTC
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Post by Peter Trei
Post by James Nicoll
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by Lynn McGuire
"25 Best Deep Space Science Fiction Books"
http://best-sci-fi-books.com/25-best-deep-space-science-fiction-books/
I have read only 13 of these awesome 25 books. "hangs head in shame"
I would have sworn that I read _Startide Rising_ but I do not see it on
my shelves.
For a while down the list I had straight "nos".
I've read _Gateway_, _Mote_ I think, _Hitch Hiker_,
and _Dune_.
I've bounced off _Fire_ and _Rev_. I'm not sure
about _Solaris_, so, do both films and a two-part
BBC radio production count?
I've read all of them, of course.
It's interesting that this seems to have a slight preponderance of one
gender, much as some of my lists have had, and yet for some reason it's
not deemed worth discussing. Why is that?
I've read 16.
Jim: Your coyness about the gender bias in your lists isn't cute, its tiresome.
This list had 4 books by women out of 25. That's certainly low if you look the
current active population of authors. But can you show that it's low over the
whole period this list covers, which goes back 60 years?
pt
I don't find it tiresome, I find it admirable. I just don't like the
bias against puppy authors and publishers.

Lynn
Peter Trei
2017-05-03 21:33:16 UTC
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Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by Peter Trei
Post by James Nicoll
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by Lynn McGuire
"25 Best Deep Space Science Fiction Books"
http://best-sci-fi-books.com/25-best-deep-space-science-fiction-books/
I have read only 13 of these awesome 25 books. "hangs head in shame"
I would have sworn that I read _Startide Rising_ but I do not see it on
my shelves.
For a while down the list I had straight "nos".
I've read _Gateway_, _Mote_ I think, _Hitch Hiker_,
and _Dune_.
I've bounced off _Fire_ and _Rev_. I'm not sure
about _Solaris_, so, do both films and a two-part
BBC radio production count?
I've read all of them, of course.
It's interesting that this seems to have a slight preponderance of one
gender, much as some of my lists have had, and yet for some reason it's
not deemed worth discussing. Why is that?
I've read 16.
Jim: Your coyness about the gender bias in your lists isn't cute, its tiresome.
This list had 4 books by women out of 25. That's certainly low if you look the
current active population of authors. But can you show that it's low over the
whole period this list covers, which goes back 60 years?
pt
I don't find it tiresome, I find it admirable. I just don't like the
bias against puppy authors and publishers.
I too find it honorable, and noble work, to call attention to authors which
are being unfairly overlooked.

But I find it tiresome for Jim to pretend he's just listing 'core' works.
Despite his claims to the contrary, he has an agenda.

pt
Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
2017-05-03 21:37:07 UTC
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On Wednesday, May 3, 2017 at 1:45:34 PM UTC-4, Lynn McGuire
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by Peter Trei
In article
On Wednesday, 3 May 2017 07:20:05 UTC+1, Lynn McGuire
Post by Lynn McGuire
"25 Best Deep Space Science Fiction Books"
http://best-sci-fi-books.com/25-best-deep-space-scienc
e-fiction-books/
I have read only 13 of these awesome 25 books. "hangs
head in shame"
I would have sworn that I read _Startide Rising_ but I do
not see it on my shelves.
For a while down the list I had straight "nos".
I've read _Gateway_, _Mote_ I think, _Hitch Hiker_,
and _Dune_.
I've bounced off _Fire_ and _Rev_. I'm not sure
about _Solaris_, so, do both films and a two-part
BBC radio production count?
I've read all of them, of course.
It's interesting that this seems to have a slight
preponderance of one gender, much as some of my lists have
had, and yet for some reason it's not deemed worth
discussing. Why is that?
I've read 16.
Jim: Your coyness about the gender bias in your lists isn't
cute, its tiresome.
This list had 4 books by women out of 25. That's certainly
low if you look the current active population of authors. But
can you show that it's low over the whole period this list
covers, which goes back 60 years?
pt
I don't find it tiresome, I find it admirable. I just don't
like the bias against puppy authors and publishers.
I too find it honorable, and noble work, to call attention to
authors which are being unfairly overlooked.
But I find it tiresome for Jim to pretend he's just listing
'core' works. Despite his claims to the contrary, he has an
agenda.
I have little opinion on the lists. I do find Jim tiresome, though.
--
Terry Austin

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.
h***@gmail.com
2017-05-04 00:35:14 UTC
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Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by Peter Trei
Post by James Nicoll
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by Lynn McGuire
"25 Best Deep Space Science Fiction Books"
http://best-sci-fi-books.com/25-best-deep-space-science-fiction-books/
I have read only 13 of these awesome 25 books. "hangs head in shame"
I would have sworn that I read _Startide Rising_ but I do not see it on
my shelves.
For a while down the list I had straight "nos".
I've read _Gateway_, _Mote_ I think, _Hitch Hiker_,
and _Dune_.
I've bounced off _Fire_ and _Rev_. I'm not sure
about _Solaris_, so, do both films and a two-part
BBC radio production count?
I've read all of them, of course.
It's interesting that this seems to have a slight preponderance of one
gender, much as some of my lists have had, and yet for some reason it's
not deemed worth discussing. Why is that?
I've read 16.
Jim: Your coyness about the gender bias in your lists isn't cute, its tiresome.
This list had 4 books by women out of 25. That's certainly low if you look the
current active population of authors. But can you show that it's low over the
whole period this list covers, which goes back 60 years?
pt
I don't find it tiresome, I find it admirable. I just don't like the
bias against puppy authors and publishers.
and yet Lynn has repeatedly stated that he won't read books because the author is a "climate change alarmist"
Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
2017-05-03 16:47:25 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
In article
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by Lynn McGuire
"25 Best Deep Space Science Fiction Books"
http://best-sci-fi-books.com/25-best-deep-space-science-fic
tion-books/
I have read only 13 of these awesome 25 books. "hangs head in shame"
I would have sworn that I read _Startide Rising_ but I do not
see it on my shelves.
For a while down the list I had straight "nos".
I've read _Gateway_, _Mote_ I think, _Hitch Hiker_,
and _Dune_.
I've bounced off _Fire_ and _Rev_. I'm not sure
about _Solaris_, so, do both films and a two-part
BBC radio production count?
I've read all of them, of course.
It's interesting that this seems to have a slight preponderance
of one gender, much as some of my lists have had, and yet for
some reason it's not deemed worth discussing. Why is that?
Because nobody likes you.
--
Terry Austin

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.
Anthony Nance
2017-05-03 17:32:19 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by James Nicoll
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by Lynn McGuire
"25 Best Deep Space Science Fiction Books"
http://best-sci-fi-books.com/25-best-deep-space-science-fiction-books/
I have read only 13 of these awesome 25 books. "hangs head in shame"
I would have sworn that I read _Startide Rising_ but I do not see it on
my shelves.
For a while down the list I had straight "nos".
I've read _Gateway_, _Mote_ I think, _Hitch Hiker_,
and _Dune_.
I've bounced off _Fire_ and _Rev_. I'm not sure
about _Solaris_, so, do both films and a two-part
BBC radio production count?
I've read all of them, of course.
It's interesting that this seems to have a slight preponderance of one
gender, much as some of my lists have had, and yet for some reason it's
not deemed worth discussing. Why is that?
Nor have we discussed their enthnicities, religious beliefs,
nationalities, political beliefs, ages, heights, weights,
hair styles, eye color, fashion sense, breakfast preferences,
or favorite vacation spots. Why is that?

Tony
Quadibloc
2017-05-03 19:50:52 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by James Nicoll
It's interesting that this seems to have a slight preponderance of one
gender, much as some of my lists have had, and yet for some reason it's
not deemed worth discussing. Why is that?
Because, unfortunately, we live in a world where women have long been denied
equal opportunities, with many of them being relegated to the role of a
housewife and mother. Therefore, it is expected from experience that men will
predominate in lists of authors of books, with only a few genres, such as
romance novels, being exceptions.

I hope this is helpful information.

John Savard
Gene Wirchenko
2017-05-03 20:08:29 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by James Nicoll
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by Lynn McGuire
"25 Best Deep Space Science Fiction Books"
http://best-sci-fi-books.com/25-best-deep-space-science-fiction-books/
I have read only 13 of these awesome 25 books. "hangs head in shame"
I would have sworn that I read _Startide Rising_ but I do not see it on
my shelves.
For a while down the list I had straight "nos".
I've read _Gateway_, _Mote_ I think, _Hitch Hiker_,
and _Dune_.
I've bounced off _Fire_ and _Rev_. I'm not sure
about _Solaris_, so, do both films and a two-part
BBC radio production count?
I've read all of them, of course.
It's interesting that this seems to have a slight preponderance of one
gender, much as some of my lists have had, and yet for some reason it's
not deemed worth discussing. Why is that?
Yours were slight?

Any fool can compose a list, but I suppose we were expecting more
from you. There is no need for you to worry about that anymore from
my perspective as you have lost your credibility.

Sincerely,

Gene Wirchenko
David DeLaney
2017-05-05 11:40:17 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Gene Wirchenko
Post by James Nicoll
It's interesting that this seems to have a slight preponderance of one
gender, much as some of my lists have had, and yet for some reason it's
not deemed worth discussing. Why is that?
Yours were slight?
Any fool can compose a list, but I suppose we were expecting more
from you. There is no need for you to worry about that anymore from
my perspective as you have lost your credibility.
So... I find it's interesting that

a) you're on the same side as Terry here, as are several others, and none of
you seem to be taking that as a warning sign, and

b) you all seem to be angry at or disappointed in James because he's giving
list of books that he thinks are core books - and some folks are disputing that
but mostly in a "what about all THESE books then?" manner - but is not
revealing the thought processes he used or other methods of choosing which
books he is picking said lists from? If I didn't know better, I'd think you
were all consciously aping the paradigms of radical militant feminism!

I'm finding it amusing, and it has not downgraded my appreciation for James
himself or for his traditional understated writing style.

Dave, perhaps if one of the lists had more cat stories?
--
\/David DeLaney posting thru EarthLink - "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
gatekeeper.vic.com/~dbd - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.
Gene Wirchenko
2017-05-06 14:33:02 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On Fri, 05 May 2017 06:40:17 -0500, David DeLaney
Post by David DeLaney
Post by Gene Wirchenko
Post by James Nicoll
It's interesting that this seems to have a slight preponderance of one
gender, much as some of my lists have had, and yet for some reason it's
not deemed worth discussing. Why is that?
Yours were slight?
Any fool can compose a list, but I suppose we were expecting more
from you. There is no need for you to worry about that anymore from
my perspective as you have lost your credibility.
So... I find it's interesting that
a) you're on the same side as Terry here, as are several others, and none of
you seem to be taking that as a warning sign, and
Terry is a troll but not always. When he is talking sense, I
might well agree with him.
Post by David DeLaney
b) you all seem to be angry at or disappointed in James because he's giving
list of books that he thinks are core books - and some folks are disputing that
but mostly in a "what about all THESE books then?" manner - but is not
revealing the thought processes he used or other methods of choosing which
books he is picking said lists from? If I didn't know better, I'd think you
were all consciously aping the paradigms of radical militant feminism!
And are they really core books? As I recall, one early list was
practically all women authors. Ok, so women are underrepresented on
many list; that does not mean that he can get away with calling a list
core that contains only (or nearly so) women authors. That is what
some of us are objecting to.
Post by David DeLaney
I'm finding it amusing, and it has not downgraded my appreciation for James
himself or for his traditional understated writing style.
Dave, perhaps if one of the lists had more cat stories?
Sincerely,

Gene Wirchenko
Robert Carnegie
2017-05-06 18:36:34 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Gene Wirchenko
On Fri, 05 May 2017 06:40:17 -0500, David DeLaney
Post by David DeLaney
Post by Gene Wirchenko
Post by James Nicoll
It's interesting that this seems to have a slight preponderance of one
gender, much as some of my lists have had, and yet for some reason it's
not deemed worth discussing. Why is that?
Yours were slight?
Any fool can compose a list, but I suppose we were expecting more
from you. There is no need for you to worry about that anymore from
my perspective as you have lost your credibility.
So... I find it's interesting that
a) you're on the same side as Terry here, as are several others, and none of
you seem to be taking that as a warning sign, and
Terry is a troll but not always. When he is talking sense, I
might well agree with him.
Post by David DeLaney
b) you all seem to be angry at or disappointed in James because he's giving
list of books that he thinks are core books - and some folks are disputing that
but mostly in a "what about all THESE books then?" manner - but is not
revealing the thought processes he used or other methods of choosing which
books he is picking said lists from? If I didn't know better, I'd think you
were all consciously aping the paradigms of radical militant feminism!
And are they really core books? As I recall, one early list was
practically all women authors. Ok, so women are underrepresented on
many list; that does not mean that he can get away with calling a list
core that contains only (or nearly so) women authors. That is what
some of us are objecting to.
How many total "core" "milsf" books do you think
there are? Fewer than 25? More than 25?

If more than 25, can you consider that as many
as 25 of the more-than-25 books may be by women,
persons of race, dysmorphians, and the differently
sexual? (Including people who became dysmorphian
on the battlefield. Or became female because of
the draft.)
David DeLaney
2017-05-07 20:45:33 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Gene Wirchenko
Ok, so women are underrepresented on
many list; that does not mean that he can get away with calling a list
core that contains only (or nearly so) women authors. That is what
some of us are objecting to.
... Oh, so now we see the violins inherent in the system!

Books cannot be _core_ if they're written by women?

I may be graceful and assume you mean that's because few people would ever have
heard of them, but that's just pushing the very same issue back one level.

Dave, egg-shaped reasoning
--
\/David DeLaney posting thru EarthLink - "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
gatekeeper.vic.com/~dbd - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.
Greg Goss
2017-05-03 14:17:53 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Lynn McGuire
"25 Best Deep Space Science Fiction Books"
http://best-sci-fi-books.com/25-best-deep-space-science-fiction-books/
I have read only 13 of these awesome 25 books. "hangs head in shame"
I would have sworn that I read _Startide Rising_ but I do not see it on
my shelves.
My biggest objection to Startide was that it was "obviously" a sequel
to a book that doesn't exist.
--
We are geeks. Resistance is voltage over current.
James Nicoll
2017-05-03 14:40:00 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Greg Goss
Post by Lynn McGuire
"25 Best Deep Space Science Fiction Books"
http://best-sci-fi-books.com/25-best-deep-space-science-fiction-books/
I have read only 13 of these awesome 25 books. "hangs head in shame"
I would have sworn that I read _Startide Rising_ but I do not see it on
my shelves.
My biggest objection to Startide was that it was "obviously" a sequel
to a book that doesn't exist.
Same deal as SUNDIVER....
--
My reviews can be found at http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/
My Livejournal at http://www.livejournal.com/users/james_nicoll
My patreon is at https://www.patreon.com/jamesdnicoll
Harold Hill
2017-05-03 14:42:21 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Greg Goss
Post by Lynn McGuire
"25 Best Deep Space Science Fiction Books"
http://best-sci-fi-books.com/25-best-deep-space-science-fiction-books/
I have read only 13 of these awesome 25 books. "hangs head in shame"
I would have sworn that I read _Startide Rising_ but I do not see it on
my shelves.
My biggest objection to Startide was that it was "obviously" a sequel
to a book that doesn't exist.
Agreed. It seemed to me to be a fantastic middle of a story. Too bad there was never a beginning or end to it.

(Yes. I did slog through the second trilogy. Sigh.)
--
-Harold Hill
Garrett Wollman
2017-05-03 16:02:03 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Lynn McGuire
"25 Best Deep Space Science Fiction Books"
http://best-sci-fi-books.com/25-best-deep-space-science-fiction-books/
I have read only 13 of these awesome 25 books. "hangs head in shame"
I have read almost none of these books. But I cannot imagine a world
in which DUNE is considered the best "deep space science fiction
book" with a straight face.

And no Norton? Really?

-GAWollman
--
Garrett A. Wollman | "Act to avoid constraining the future; if you can,
***@bimajority.org| act to remove constraint from the future. This is
Opinions not shared by| a thing you can do, are able to do, to do together."
my employers. | - Graydon Saunders, _A Succession of Bad Days_ (2015)
Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
2017-05-03 16:48:48 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Garrett Wollman
Post by Lynn McGuire
"25 Best Deep Space Science Fiction Books"
http://best-sci-fi-books.com/25-best-deep-space-science-ficti
on-books/
I have read only 13 of these awesome 25 books. "hangs head in
shame"
I have read almost none of these books. But I cannot imagine a
world in which DUNE is considered the best "deep space science
fiction book" with a straight face.
I've gotta agree, but I have read about a third of them, which is
unusually many for such lists.
--
Terry Austin

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.
James Nicoll
2017-05-03 17:33:09 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Garrett Wollman
Post by Lynn McGuire
"25 Best Deep Space Science Fiction Books"
http://best-sci-fi-books.com/25-best-deep-space-science-fiction-books/
I have read only 13 of these awesome 25 books. "hangs head in shame"
I have read almost none of these books. But I cannot imagine a world
in which DUNE is considered the best "deep space science fiction
book" with a straight face.
And no Norton? Really?
Wait for my Core Space Traders list.

I remember during the 50 Nortons in 50 Weeks project coming across an
essay by, hrm, Lin Carter where he mentioned encountering a lot of
hostility to the idea Norton was worth discussing at all.
--
My reviews can be found at http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/
My Livejournal at http://www.livejournal.com/users/james_nicoll
My patreon is at https://www.patreon.com/jamesdnicoll
James Nicoll
2017-05-03 17:37:21 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by James Nicoll
Post by Garrett Wollman
Post by Lynn McGuire
"25 Best Deep Space Science Fiction Books"
http://best-sci-fi-books.com/25-best-deep-space-science-fiction-books/
I have read only 13 of these awesome 25 books. "hangs head in shame"
I have read almost none of these books. But I cannot imagine a world
in which DUNE is considered the best "deep space science fiction
book" with a straight face.
And no Norton? Really?
Wait for my Core Space Traders list.
I remember during the 50 Nortons in 50 Weeks project coming across an
essay by, hrm, Lin Carter where he mentioned encountering a lot of
hostility to the idea Norton was worth discussing at all.
I used The Snow Queen already but I wonder if there are seventeen
more books about grumpy rustics whose backwater world holds the secret
of eternal life to go with Dune, The Snow Queen and Norstrilia?
--
My reviews can be found at http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/
My Livejournal at http://www.livejournal.com/users/james_nicoll
My patreon is at https://www.patreon.com/jamesdnicoll
Robert Carnegie
2017-05-03 21:53:45 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by James Nicoll
Post by James Nicoll
Post by Garrett Wollman
Post by Lynn McGuire
"25 Best Deep Space Science Fiction Books"
http://best-sci-fi-books.com/25-best-deep-space-science-fiction-books/
I have read only 13 of these awesome 25 books. "hangs head in shame"
I have read almost none of these books. But I cannot imagine a world
in which DUNE is considered the best "deep space science fiction
book" with a straight face.
And no Norton? Really?
Wait for my Core Space Traders list.
I remember during the 50 Nortons in 50 Weeks project coming across an
essay by, hrm, Lin Carter where he mentioned encountering a lot of
hostility to the idea Norton was worth discussing at all.
I used The Snow Queen already but I wonder if there are seventeen
more books about grumpy rustics whose backwater world holds the secret
of eternal life to go with Dune, The Snow Queen and Norstrilia?
I would expect you to know the answer already,
unless you are mentally or otherwise filtering
out the trashier ones. There's got to be
dozens of Shangri-La in Space stories.

I think longevity was mentioned in Star Trek's
"The Omega Glory" - the one where the primitives
have a U.S. flag to worship - and is implied
of the Organians in "Errand of Mercy".
Oh, and "Miri". Any more? Okay, "Miri" isn't
rustic. The kids are still living on tinned
food, I think. That's one for Lynn...
James Nicoll
2017-05-03 22:05:27 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by James Nicoll
Post by James Nicoll
Post by Garrett Wollman
Post by Lynn McGuire
"25 Best Deep Space Science Fiction Books"
http://best-sci-fi-books.com/25-best-deep-space-science-fiction-books/
I have read only 13 of these awesome 25 books. "hangs head in shame"
I have read almost none of these books. But I cannot imagine a world
in which DUNE is considered the best "deep space science fiction
book" with a straight face.
And no Norton? Really?
Wait for my Core Space Traders list.
I remember during the 50 Nortons in 50 Weeks project coming across an
essay by, hrm, Lin Carter where he mentioned encountering a lot of
hostility to the idea Norton was worth discussing at all.
I used The Snow Queen already but I wonder if there are seventeen
more books about grumpy rustics whose backwater world holds the secret
of eternal life to go with Dune, The Snow Queen and Norstrilia?
I would expect you to know the answer already,
unless you are mentally or otherwise filtering
out the trashier ones. There's got to be
dozens of Shangri-La in Space stories.
I don't know the answer, actually.
--
My reviews can be found at http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/
My Livejournal at http://www.livejournal.com/users/james_nicoll
My patreon is at https://www.patreon.com/jamesdnicoll
James Nicoll
2017-05-03 22:09:16 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by James Nicoll
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by James Nicoll
Post by James Nicoll
Post by Garrett Wollman
Post by Lynn McGuire
"25 Best Deep Space Science Fiction Books"
http://best-sci-fi-books.com/25-best-deep-space-science-fiction-books/
I have read only 13 of these awesome 25 books. "hangs head in shame"
I have read almost none of these books. But I cannot imagine a world
in which DUNE is considered the best "deep space science fiction
book" with a straight face.
And no Norton? Really?
Wait for my Core Space Traders list.
I remember during the 50 Nortons in 50 Weeks project coming across an
essay by, hrm, Lin Carter where he mentioned encountering a lot of
hostility to the idea Norton was worth discussing at all.
I used The Snow Queen already but I wonder if there are seventeen
more books about grumpy rustics whose backwater world holds the secret
of eternal life to go with Dune, The Snow Queen and Norstrilia?
I would expect you to know the answer already,
unless you are mentally or otherwise filtering
out the trashier ones. There's got to be
dozens of Shangri-La in Space stories.
I don't know the answer, actually.
I am sometimes surprised by what sets exist in SF. Once, I had a week
where half the books I reviewed were about troubled families in an
imperial context, in which the protagonist loses a hand. Two in
a row would have been odd but four of seven?
--
My reviews can be found at http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/
My Livejournal at http://www.livejournal.com/users/james_nicoll
My patreon is at https://www.patreon.com/jamesdnicoll
Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
2017-05-03 22:47:02 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by James Nicoll
In article
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by James Nicoll
Post by James Nicoll
Post by Garrett Wollman
Post by Lynn McGuire
"25 Best Deep Space Science Fiction Books"
http://best-sci-fi-books.com/25-best-deep-space-science
-fiction-books/
I have read only 13 of these awesome 25 books. "hangs
head in shame"
I have read almost none of these books. But I cannot
imagine a world in which DUNE is considered the best "deep
space science fiction book" with a straight face.
And no Norton? Really?
Wait for my Core Space Traders list.
I remember during the 50 Nortons in 50 Weeks project coming
across an essay by, hrm, Lin Carter where he mentioned
encountering a lot of hostility to the idea Norton was worth
discussing at all.
I used The Snow Queen already but I wonder if there are
seventeen more books about grumpy rustics whose backwater
world holds the secret of eternal life to go with Dune, The
Snow Queen and Norstrilia?
I would expect you to know the answer already,
unless you are mentally or otherwise filtering
out the trashier ones. There's got to be
dozens of Shangri-La in Space stories.
I don't know the answer, actually.
I am sometimes surprised by what sets exist in SF. Once, I had a
week where half the books I reviewed were about troubled
families in an imperial context, in which the protagonist loses
a hand. Two in a row would have been odd but four of seven?
I expect that, if you look back by the amount of time that it takes
for a book to go from idea to print, you'll find a very successful
book or movie with those plot elements.

If it's worth doing once, it's worth doing over and over, until it
doesn't make money any more.
--
Terry Austin

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.
Dorothy J Heydt
2017-05-03 23:29:19 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by James Nicoll
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by James Nicoll
Post by James Nicoll
Post by Garrett Wollman
Post by Lynn McGuire
"25 Best Deep Space Science Fiction Books"
http://best-sci-fi-books.com/25-best-deep-space-science-fiction-books/
I have read only 13 of these awesome 25 books. "hangs head in shame"
I have read almost none of these books. But I cannot imagine a world
in which DUNE is considered the best "deep space science fiction
book" with a straight face.
And no Norton? Really?
Wait for my Core Space Traders list.
I remember during the 50 Nortons in 50 Weeks project coming across an
essay by, hrm, Lin Carter where he mentioned encountering a lot of
hostility to the idea Norton was worth discussing at all.
I used The Snow Queen already but I wonder if there are seventeen
more books about grumpy rustics whose backwater world holds the secret
of eternal life to go with Dune, The Snow Queen and Norstrilia?
I would expect you to know the answer already,
unless you are mentally or otherwise filtering
out the trashier ones. There's got to be
dozens of Shangri-La in Space stories.
I don't know the answer, actually.
Also from Star Trek: This Side of Paradise. Nice story, but I
was disappointed in the lighting. Mira Ceti (known by its
ekename Omicron Ceti in the episode) is a binary, a red giant and
a white dwarf. It's a pulsating variable. It's rather outre',
which is why the scriptwriter thought it would be neat to have
its light dangerous to life (as well as very pacifying, which
makes less sense). They should've shot all the scenes on the
planet through a red filter. But they didn't.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
David Johnston
2017-05-03 23:59:20 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by James Nicoll
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by James Nicoll
Post by James Nicoll
Post by Garrett Wollman
Post by Lynn McGuire
"25 Best Deep Space Science Fiction Books"
http://best-sci-fi-books.com/25-best-deep-space-science-fiction-books/
I have read only 13 of these awesome 25 books. "hangs head in shame"
I have read almost none of these books. But I cannot imagine a world
in which DUNE is considered the best "deep space science fiction
book" with a straight face.
And no Norton? Really?
Wait for my Core Space Traders list.
I remember during the 50 Nortons in 50 Weeks project coming across an
essay by, hrm, Lin Carter where he mentioned encountering a lot of
hostility to the idea Norton was worth discussing at all.
I used The Snow Queen already but I wonder if there are seventeen
more books about grumpy rustics whose backwater world holds the secret
of eternal life to go with Dune, The Snow Queen and Norstrilia?
I would expect you to know the answer already,
unless you are mentally or otherwise filtering
out the trashier ones. There's got to be
dozens of Shangri-La in Space stories.
I don't know the answer, actually.
Also from Star Trek: This Side of Paradise. Nice story, but I
was disappointed in the lighting. Mira Ceti (known by its
ekename Omicron Ceti in the episode) is a binary, a red giant and
a white dwarf. It's a pulsating variable. It's rather outre',
which is why the scriptwriter thought it would be neat to have
its light dangerous to life (as well as very pacifying, which
makes less sense).
It wasn't the light that was pacifying. It was the local plantlife.

They should've shot all the scenes on the
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
planet through a red filter. But they didn't.
ly
Probably better that they didn't. "Red" sunlight has roughly the same
quality as an incandescent bulb.
Lynn McGuire
2017-05-03 23:45:46 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by James Nicoll
Post by James Nicoll
Post by Garrett Wollman
Post by Lynn McGuire
"25 Best Deep Space Science Fiction Books"
http://best-sci-fi-books.com/25-best-deep-space-science-fiction-books/
I have read only 13 of these awesome 25 books. "hangs head in shame"
I have read almost none of these books. But I cannot imagine a world
in which DUNE is considered the best "deep space science fiction
book" with a straight face.
And no Norton? Really?
Wait for my Core Space Traders list.
I remember during the 50 Nortons in 50 Weeks project coming across an
essay by, hrm, Lin Carter where he mentioned encountering a lot of
hostility to the idea Norton was worth discussing at all.
I used The Snow Queen already but I wonder if there are seventeen
more books about grumpy rustics whose backwater world holds the secret
of eternal life to go with Dune, The Snow Queen and Norstrilia?
I would expect you to know the answer already,
unless you are mentally or otherwise filtering
out the trashier ones. There's got to be
dozens of Shangri-La in Space stories.
I think longevity was mentioned in Star Trek's
"The Omega Glory" - the one where the primitives
have a U.S. flag to worship - and is implied
of the Organians in "Errand of Mercy".
Oh, and "Miri". Any more? Okay, "Miri" isn't
rustic. The kids are still living on tinned
food, I think. That's one for Lynn...
Hey, tinned food will do in a pinch. I fully expect a future Cat 5
hurricane in the Houston area to kill over a million people. The
survivors, hopefully myself included, will be eating tinned food for
months. At least we will, we have three months worth in the pantry.

Lynn
Robert Carnegie
2017-05-04 06:45:14 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by James Nicoll
Post by James Nicoll
Post by Garrett Wollman
Post by Lynn McGuire
"25 Best Deep Space Science Fiction Books"
http://best-sci-fi-books.com/25-best-deep-space-science-fiction-books/
I have read only 13 of these awesome 25 books. "hangs head in shame"
I have read almost none of these books. But I cannot imagine a world
in which DUNE is considered the best "deep space science fiction
book" with a straight face.
And no Norton? Really?
Wait for my Core Space Traders list.
I remember during the 50 Nortons in 50 Weeks project coming across an
essay by, hrm, Lin Carter where he mentioned encountering a lot of
hostility to the idea Norton was worth discussing at all.
I used The Snow Queen already but I wonder if there are seventeen
more books about grumpy rustics whose backwater world holds the secret
of eternal life to go with Dune, The Snow Queen and Norstrilia?
I would expect you to know the answer already,
unless you are mentally or otherwise filtering
out the trashier ones. There's got to be
dozens of Shangri-La in Space stories.
I think longevity was mentioned in Star Trek's
"The Omega Glory" - the one where the primitives
have a U.S. flag to worship - and is implied
of the Organians in "Errand of Mercy".
Oh, and "Miri". Any more? Okay, "Miri" isn't
rustic. The kids are still living on tinned
food, I think. That's one for Lynn...
Hey, tinned food will do in a pinch. I fully expect a future Cat 5
hurricane in the Houston area to kill over a million people. The
survivors, hopefully myself included, will be eating tinned food for
months. At least we will, we have three months worth in the pantry.
Okay, but in "Miri" the children are semi-immortal
and the adults all died 300 years ago.

It think I remember from James Blish's written
version - so maybe not on film - that one of the
kids explains that they got food from "mommies",
then she imitates a can-opener, and Yeoman Rand
takes this badly.

I also have an impression of the disaster only
being one century ago in that version, which makes
Miri and the others about 115 years old and not
in their 300s. Captain Kirk makes a remark at
the end about romantic involvement with an older
woman. Maybe the story doesn't all hang together...
maybe the virus makes tinned food last longer, too.
Ted Nolan <tednolan>
2017-05-04 12:58:10 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by James Nicoll
Post by James Nicoll
Post by Garrett Wollman
Post by Lynn McGuire
"25 Best Deep Space Science Fiction Books"
http://best-sci-fi-books.com/25-best-deep-space-science-fiction-books/
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by James Nicoll
Post by James Nicoll
Post by Garrett Wollman
Post by Lynn McGuire
I have read only 13 of these awesome 25 books. "hangs head in shame"
I have read almost none of these books. But I cannot imagine a world
in which DUNE is considered the best "deep space science fiction
book" with a straight face.
And no Norton? Really?
Wait for my Core Space Traders list.
I remember during the 50 Nortons in 50 Weeks project coming across an
essay by, hrm, Lin Carter where he mentioned encountering a lot of
hostility to the idea Norton was worth discussing at all.
I used The Snow Queen already but I wonder if there are seventeen
more books about grumpy rustics whose backwater world holds the secret
of eternal life to go with Dune, The Snow Queen and Norstrilia?
I would expect you to know the answer already,
unless you are mentally or otherwise filtering
out the trashier ones. There's got to be
dozens of Shangri-La in Space stories.
I think longevity was mentioned in Star Trek's
"The Omega Glory" - the one where the primitives
have a U.S. flag to worship - and is implied
of the Organians in "Errand of Mercy".
Oh, and "Miri". Any more? Okay, "Miri" isn't
rustic. The kids are still living on tinned
food, I think. That's one for Lynn...
Hey, tinned food will do in a pinch. I fully expect a future Cat 5
hurricane in the Houston area to kill over a million people. The
survivors, hopefully myself included, will be eating tinned food for
months. At least we will, we have three months worth in the pantry.
Okay, but in "Miri" the children are semi-immortal
and the adults all died 300 years ago.
It think I remember from James Blish's written
version - so maybe not on film - that one of the
kids explains that they got food from "mommies",
then she imitates a can-opener, and Yeoman Rand
takes this badly.
I also have an impression of the disaster only
being one century ago in that version, which makes
Miri and the others about 115 years old and not
in their 300s. Captain Kirk makes a remark at
the end about romantic involvement with an older
woman. Maybe the story doesn't all hang together...
maybe the virus makes tinned food last longer, too.
Fun fact I read somewhere: The ep was filmed on the
Andy Griffith "Mayberry" set.
--
------
columbiaclosings.com
What's not in Columbia anymore..
Dorothy J Heydt
2017-05-04 12:47:58 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Robert Carnegie
Okay, but in "Miri" the children are semi-immortal
and the adults all died 300 years ago.
"Long-lived" is not the same as "semi-immortal."
Post by Robert Carnegie
I think I remember from James Blish's written
version - so maybe not on film - that one of the
kids explains that they got food from "mommies",
then she imitates a can-opener, and Yeoman Rand
takes this badly.
That is not in the TV episode. Blish put a lot of things into
his written version of the episodes that were not in the episodes
and that annoyed the patch out of ardent fans like me, back in
the day.

His version of "Balance of Terror" (the one with the Romulan ship
and Kirk behaving like a submarine captain in WWII) really
annoyed me, since it had not only the unpleasant guy on the
bridge but also Kirk distrusting Spock 'cause he looked like a
Romulan.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
David DeLaney
2017-05-05 11:42:13 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Lynn McGuire
Hey, tinned food will do in a pinch. I fully expect a future Cat 5
hurricane in the Houston area to kill over a million people. The
survivors, hopefully myself included, will be eating tinned food for
months. At least we will, we have three months worth in the pantry.
Well, that oughta get you right up through where the plagues from all the
unburied decomposing bodies hit. Good timing there!

Dave, hope you've stocked a nose clothespin
--
\/David DeLaney posting thru EarthLink - "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
gatekeeper.vic.com/~dbd - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.
J. Clarke
2017-05-04 08:02:21 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by James Nicoll
Post by James Nicoll
Post by Garrett Wollman
Post by Lynn McGuire
"25 Best Deep Space Science Fiction Books"
http://best-sci-fi-books.com/25-best-deep-space-science-fiction-books/
I have read only 13 of these awesome 25 books. "hangs head in shame"
I have read almost none of these books. But I cannot imagine a world
in which DUNE is considered the best "deep space science fiction
book" with a straight face.
And no Norton? Really?
Wait for my Core Space Traders list.
I remember during the 50 Nortons in 50 Weeks project coming across an
essay by, hrm, Lin Carter where he mentioned encountering a lot of
hostility to the idea Norton was worth discussing at all.
I used The Snow Queen already but I wonder if there are seventeen
more books about grumpy rustics whose backwater world holds the secret
of eternal life to go with Dune, The Snow Queen and Norstrilia?
I would expect you to know the answer already,
unless you are mentally or otherwise filtering
out the trashier ones. There's got to be
dozens of Shangri-La in Space stories.
I think longevity was mentioned in Star Trek's
"The Omega Glory" - the one where the primitives
have a U.S. flag to worship - and is implied
of the Organians in "Errand of Mercy".
Oh, and "Miri". Any more? Okay, "Miri" isn't
rustic. The kids are still living on tinned
food, I think. That's one for Lynn...
Different scenario. In Snow Queen, Norstrilia, and Dune, "the secret of
eternal life" is a commercial product. In the Trek episodes you cite there
may be people who have long lives but they don't export a product that
allows others to do so. Very different scenario.

However, thinking about it, in Snow Queen the product comes from hunting
(of a sentient species IIRC), in Norstrilia from herding (of a sort--it is
still "herding" if the sheep are immobile?), in Dune from mining, and in
the Honorverse it seems to be manufactured. Any other options that anyone
can recall in a story?
Greg Goss
2017-05-07 18:14:37 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by J. Clarke
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by James Nicoll
backwater world holds the secret
of eternal life to go with Dune, The Snow Queen and Norstrilia?
I think longevity was mentioned in Star Trek's
"The Omega Glory" - the one where the primitives
have a U.S. flag to worship - and is implied
of the Organians in "Errand of Mercy".
Oh, and "Miri". Any more? Okay, "Miri" isn't
rustic. The kids are still living on tinned
food, I think. That's one for Lynn...
Different scenario. In Snow Queen, Norstrilia, and Dune, "the secret of
eternal life" is a commercial product. In the Trek episodes you cite there
may be people who have long lives but they don't export a product that
allows others to do so. Very different scenario.
The plan to identify it and export it was part of the plot of the
Omega Glory.
Post by J. Clarke
However, thinking about it, in Snow Queen the product comes from hunting
(of a sentient species IIRC), in Norstrilia from herding (of a sort--it is
still "herding" if the sheep are immobile?), in Dune from mining, and in
the Honorverse it seems to be manufactured. Any other options that anyone
can recall in a story?
Blish's drug came from a soil fungus. Is that mining or agriculture?
--
We are geeks. Resistance is voltage over current.
Robert Carnegie
2017-05-07 19:11:39 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Greg Goss
Post by J. Clarke
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by James Nicoll
backwater world holds the secret
of eternal life to go with Dune, The Snow Queen and Norstrilia?
I think longevity was mentioned in Star Trek's
"The Omega Glory" - the one where the primitives
have a U.S. flag to worship - and is implied
of the Organians in "Errand of Mercy".
Oh, and "Miri". Any more? Okay, "Miri" isn't
rustic. The kids are still living on tinned
food, I think. That's one for Lynn...
Different scenario. In Snow Queen, Norstrilia, and Dune, "the secret of
eternal life" is a commercial product. In the Trek episodes you cite there
may be people who have long lives but they don't export a product that
allows others to do so. Very different scenario.
The plan to identify it and export it was part of the plot of the
Omega Glory.
Post by J. Clarke
However, thinking about it, in Snow Queen the product comes from hunting
(of a sentient species IIRC), in Norstrilia from herding (of a sort--it is
still "herding" if the sheep are immobile?), in Dune from mining, and in
the Honorverse it seems to be manufactured. Any other options that anyone
can recall in a story?
Blish's drug came from a soil fungus.
Is that mining or agriculture?
Well, that's the trouble with lichen.

They're fungi /and/ algae.
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lichen>

Here's a problem. The section on "Cultivation"
just has a link to "How to Grow Lichen" - which
is on an external site (lichenlovers.org) and dead.
Not a good sign. But I don't feel entitled to
remove all of that from Wikipedia.

IIRC cultivation is also a problem in the story.
John Dallman
2017-05-07 19:37:00 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Greg Goss
Blish's drug came from a soil fungus. Is that mining or
agriculture?
Once you start to cultivate it, agriculture. If you can find a practical
way of synthesising it, chemicals production.

John
Dorothy J Heydt
2017-05-03 17:35:26 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by James Nicoll
Post by Garrett Wollman
Post by Lynn McGuire
"25 Best Deep Space Science Fiction Books"
http://best-sci-fi-books.com/25-best-deep-space-science-fiction-books/
I have read only 13 of these awesome 25 books. "hangs head in shame"
I have read almost none of these books. But I cannot imagine a world
in which DUNE is considered the best "deep space science fiction
book" with a straight face.
And no Norton? Really?
Wait for my Core Space Traders list.
With much Anderson, I trust?
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
James Nicoll
2017-05-03 19:39:42 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by James Nicoll
Post by Garrett Wollman
Post by Lynn McGuire
"25 Best Deep Space Science Fiction Books"
http://best-sci-fi-books.com/25-best-deep-space-science-fiction-books/
I have read only 13 of these awesome 25 books. "hangs head in shame"
I have read almost none of these books. But I cannot imagine a world
in which DUNE is considered the best "deep space science fiction
book" with a straight face.
And no Norton? Really?
Wait for my Core Space Traders list.
With much Anderson, I trust?
No, because of one of the two rules I need to add to the boiler plate:
each author gets at most one work per list. Anderson at least missed the
other rule in this case: no repeats from previous lists.
--
My reviews can be found at http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/
My Livejournal at http://www.livejournal.com/users/james_nicoll
My patreon is at https://www.patreon.com/jamesdnicoll
Gene Wirchenko
2017-05-04 01:16:51 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
[snip]
Post by James Nicoll
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
With much Anderson, I trust?
each author gets at most one work per list. Anderson at least missed the
other rule in this case: no repeats from previous lists.
So exclude authors who produce more than one good work or whom
you previously decided were good enough to make it onto a list?

What is the use of such a list?

Sincerely,

Gene Wirchenko
h***@gmail.com
2017-05-04 01:41:36 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Gene Wirchenko
[snip]
Post by James Nicoll
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
With much Anderson, I trust?
each author gets at most one work per list. Anderson at least missed the
other rule in this case: no repeats from previous lists.
So exclude authors who produce more than one good work or whom
you previously decided were good enough to make it onto a list?
I believe the "no repeats from a previous list" might be for a particular work.
Post by Gene Wirchenko
What is the use of such a list?
To point out the breadth of stuff available?
David DeLaney
2017-05-05 11:44:46 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by h***@gmail.com
Post by Gene Wirchenko
What is the use of such a list?
To point out the breadth of stuff available?
ObSFRef: Even one without pictures or conversation?

Dave, the go-to source
--
\/David DeLaney posting thru EarthLink - "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
gatekeeper.vic.com/~dbd - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.
James Nicoll
2017-05-04 02:50:45 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Gene Wirchenko
[snip]
Post by James Nicoll
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
With much Anderson, I trust?
each author gets at most one work per list. Anderson at least missed the
other rule in this case: no repeats from previous lists.
So exclude authors who produce more than one good work or whom
you previously decided were good enough to make it onto a list?
You're focusing on the wrong level. Let's say the subgenre is Protean SF,
stories where the ability to alter bodies to order is a central theme. If
Tanith Lee wrote two books on that theme, I'd pick one and list that,
rather than, if I understand the above correct, rejecting both for
some sort of Harrison Bergeron reason. If I had already listed my first
choice under, oh, ripping tales of self-actualization, I'd list the next
one, assuming it was of comparable quality, and then metaphorically kick
myself for not listing all the possible themes to begin with so I could
go at it in a more organized way. What I would not do is give her two or
more slots per list or produce lists that are essentially variations of
each other.
--
My reviews can be found at http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/
My Livejournal at http://www.livejournal.com/users/james_nicoll
My patreon is at https://www.patreon.com/jamesdnicoll
Gene Wirchenko
2017-05-06 14:40:01 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by James Nicoll
Post by Gene Wirchenko
[snip]
Post by James Nicoll
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
With much Anderson, I trust?
each author gets at most one work per list. Anderson at least missed the
other rule in this case: no repeats from previous lists.
So exclude authors who produce more than one good work or whom
you previously decided were good enough to make it onto a list?
You're focusing on the wrong level. Let's say the subgenre is Protean SF,
stories where the ability to alter bodies to order is a central theme. If
Tanith Lee wrote two books on that theme, I'd pick one and list that,
rather than, if I understand the above correct, rejecting both for
some sort of Harrison Bergeron reason. If I had already listed my first
choice under, oh, ripping tales of self-actualization, I'd list the next
one, assuming it was of comparable quality, and then metaphorically kick
myself for not listing all the possible themes to begin with so I could
go at it in a more organized way. What I would not do is give her two or
more slots per list or produce lists that are essentially variations of
each other.
Continuing with your example of a Protean SF list, suppose that
Melissa Scott was on a previous list of yours called SF-Magic Smashup
for her _Roads of Heaven_ trilogy. She then writes a superb Protean
SF novel.

By your rules, she would have no chance of making it onto the
Protean SF list because of the order you created the lists. It would
be especially silly if her Protean SF novel was widely acclaimed.

"essentially variations"? If an author is good enough in many
genres, why wouldn't you want to recognise that?

Sincerely,

Gene Wirchenko
Jaimie Vandenbergh
2017-05-06 14:51:43 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Gene Wirchenko
Post by James Nicoll
Post by Gene Wirchenko
[snip]
Post by James Nicoll
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
With much Anderson, I trust?
each author gets at most one work per list. Anderson at least missed the
other rule in this case: no repeats from previous lists.
So exclude authors who produce more than one good work or whom
you previously decided were good enough to make it onto a list?
You're focusing on the wrong level. Let's say the subgenre is Protean SF,
stories where the ability to alter bodies to order is a central theme. If
Tanith Lee wrote two books on that theme, I'd pick one and list that,
rather than, if I understand the above correct, rejecting both for
some sort of Harrison Bergeron reason. If I had already listed my first
choice under, oh, ripping tales of self-actualization, I'd list the next
one, assuming it was of comparable quality, and then metaphorically kick
myself for not listing all the possible themes to begin with so I could
go at it in a more organized way. What I would not do is give her two or
more slots per list or produce lists that are essentially variations of
each other.
Continuing with your example of a Protean SF list, suppose that
Melissa Scott was on a previous list of yours called SF-Magic Smashup
for her _Roads of Heaven_ trilogy. She then writes a superb Protean
SF novel.
By your rules, she would have no chance of making it onto the
Protean SF list because of the order you created the lists.
No, you've misparsed. That protean novel would be fine to go on the
protean list. What James has said (and it's in the quotes above, and
also in the foot of http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/post/core-milsf) is

* An author gets max one work per list
* A single work would not appear on two lists

You appear to have conflated those to "An author gets on max one list".
Post by Gene Wirchenko
It would
be especially silly if her Protean SF novel was widely acclaimed.
Indeed.
Post by Gene Wirchenko
"essentially variations"? If an author is good enough in many
genres, why wouldn't you want to recognise that?
He does.

Given how ranty you've been on this topic, you might want to go back to
the aforementioned http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/post/core-milsf and read
the intro and outro again. It won't clear up your concern about bias,
but it may help in other ways.

Cheers - Jaimie
--
L33t 5p3@|< 1s f0R R3t4rds
h***@gmail.com
2017-05-06 15:40:15 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Jaimie Vandenbergh
Post by Gene Wirchenko
Post by James Nicoll
Post by Gene Wirchenko
[snip]
Post by James Nicoll
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
With much Anderson, I trust?
each author gets at most one work per list. Anderson at least missed the
other rule in this case: no repeats from previous lists.
So exclude authors who produce more than one good work or whom
you previously decided were good enough to make it onto a list?
You're focusing on the wrong level. Let's say the subgenre is Protean SF,
stories where the ability to alter bodies to order is a central theme. If
Tanith Lee wrote two books on that theme, I'd pick one and list that,
rather than, if I understand the above correct, rejecting both for
some sort of Harrison Bergeron reason. If I had already listed my first
choice under, oh, ripping tales of self-actualization, I'd list the next
one, assuming it was of comparable quality, and then metaphorically kick
myself for not listing all the possible themes to begin with so I could
go at it in a more organized way. What I would not do is give her two or
more slots per list or produce lists that are essentially variations of
each other.
Continuing with your example of a Protean SF list, suppose that
Melissa Scott was on a previous list of yours called SF-Magic Smashup
for her _Roads of Heaven_ trilogy. She then writes a superb Protean
SF novel.
By your rules, she would have no chance of making it onto the
Protean SF list because of the order you created the lists.
No, you've misparsed. That protean novel would be fine to go on the
protean list. What James has said (and it's in the quotes above, and
also in the foot of http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/post/core-milsf) is
* An author gets max one work per list
* A single work would not appear on two lists
You appear to have conflated those to "An author gets on max one list".
He's got to keep his dander up somehow...
Gene Wirchenko
2017-05-06 20:08:27 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On Sat, 06 May 2017 15:51:43 +0100, Jaimie Vandenbergh
<***@sometimes.sessile.org> wrote:

[snip]
Post by Jaimie Vandenbergh
No, you've misparsed. That protean novel would be fine to go on the
protean list. What James has said (and it's in the quotes above, and
also in the foot of http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/post/core-milsf) is
This is what he wrote up-thread: "No, because of one of the two
rules I need to add to the boiler plate: each author gets at most one
work per list. Anderson at least missed the other rule in this case:
no repeats from previous lists."

At best, it is unclear.
Post by Jaimie Vandenbergh
* An author gets max one work per list
* A single work would not appear on two lists
You appear to have conflated those to "An author gets on max one list".
It is a valid parse. The last sentence appears to apply to the
author.
Post by Jaimie Vandenbergh
Post by Gene Wirchenko
It would
be especially silly if her Protean SF novel was widely acclaimed.
Indeed.
Post by Gene Wirchenko
"essentially variations"? If an author is good enough in many
genres, why wouldn't you want to recognise that?
He does.
Good.
Post by Jaimie Vandenbergh
Given how ranty you've been on this topic, you might want to go back to
the aforementioned http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/post/core-milsf and read
the intro and outro again. It won't clear up your concern about bias,
but it may help in other ways.
I did not read it in the first place. I went by what he posted
here.

Sincerely,

Gene Wirchenko
David Goldfarb
2017-05-07 02:03:54 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Gene Wirchenko
On Sat, 06 May 2017 15:51:43 +0100, Jaimie Vandenbergh
[snip]
Post by Jaimie Vandenbergh
No, you've misparsed. That protean novel would be fine to go on the
protean list. What James has said (and it's in the quotes above, and
also in the foot of http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/post/core-milsf) is
This is what he wrote up-thread: "No, because of one of the two
rules I need to add to the boiler plate: each author gets at most one
no repeats from previous lists."
At best, it is unclear.
Seems fine to me.
Post by Gene Wirchenko
Post by Jaimie Vandenbergh
* An author gets max one work per list
* A single work would not appear on two lists
You appear to have conflated those to "An author gets on max one list".
It is a valid parse. The last sentence appears to apply to the
author.
No it doesn't, and no it isn't. You are inventing a ridiculous
position for James to take, and then criming him for taking it,
when he isn't.
--
David Goldfarb |"I weep for the death of the spirit and soul."
***@gmail.com | "Hey, who doesn't? We'll be right back."
***@ocf.berkeley.edu | -- Mystery Science Theatre 3000
h***@gmail.com
2017-05-07 04:08:26 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by David Goldfarb
Post by Gene Wirchenko
On Sat, 06 May 2017 15:51:43 +0100, Jaimie Vandenbergh
[snip]
Post by Jaimie Vandenbergh
No, you've misparsed. That protean novel would be fine to go on the
protean list. What James has said (and it's in the quotes above, and
also in the foot of http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/post/core-milsf) is
This is what he wrote up-thread: "No, because of one of the two
rules I need to add to the boiler plate: each author gets at most one
no repeats from previous lists."
At best, it is unclear.
Seems fine to me.
Post by Gene Wirchenko
Post by Jaimie Vandenbergh
* An author gets max one work per list
* A single work would not appear on two lists
You appear to have conflated those to "An author gets on max one list".
It is a valid parse. The last sentence appears to apply to the
author.
No it doesn't, and no it isn't. You are inventing a ridiculous
position for James to take, and then criming him for taking it,
when he isn't.
It's either that or admit that he's scared of catching girl cooties...
Robert Carnegie
2017-05-03 21:46:37 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Garrett Wollman
Post by Lynn McGuire
"25 Best Deep Space Science Fiction Books"
http://best-sci-fi-books.com/25-best-deep-space-science-fiction-books/
I have read only 13 of these awesome 25 books. "hangs head in shame"
I have read almost none of these books. But I cannot imagine a world
in which DUNE is considered the best "deep space science fiction
book" with a straight face.
And no Norton? Really?
DUNE, minus sequels, portrays many locations
in a vast galactic society, plus many centuries
of history. It has a grand sweep. Like Star Wars.
But a lot of action on this one desert planet.
Like Star Wars.

For that matter, what about Asimov's Foundation,
for the same reasons (except non-metaphorical
desertification)?

I don't recall Norton stories going to /many/
different places - although the human political
organisation included many planets, we didn't
see many in one go. Maybe all of the stories
put together... or the "Solar Queen" series.
James Nicoll
2017-05-03 22:06:08 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by Garrett Wollman
Post by Lynn McGuire
"25 Best Deep Space Science Fiction Books"
http://best-sci-fi-books.com/25-best-deep-space-science-fiction-books/
I have read only 13 of these awesome 25 books. "hangs head in shame"
I have read almost none of these books. But I cannot imagine a world
in which DUNE is considered the best "deep space science fiction
book" with a straight face.
And no Norton? Really?
DUNE, minus sequels, portrays many locations
in a vast galactic society, plus many centuries
of history. It has a grand sweep. Like Star Wars.
But a lot of action on this one desert planet.
Like Star Wars.
For that matter, what about Asimov's Foundation,
for the same reasons (except non-metaphorical
desertification)?
I don't recall Norton stories going to /many/
different places - although the human political
organisation included many planets, we didn't
see many in one go. Maybe all of the stories
put together... or the "Solar Queen" series.
How many worlds are featured in Galactic Derelict?
--
My reviews can be found at http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/
My Livejournal at http://www.livejournal.com/users/james_nicoll
My patreon is at https://www.patreon.com/jamesdnicoll
Robert Carnegie
2017-05-03 23:30:40 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by James Nicoll
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by Garrett Wollman
Post by Lynn McGuire
"25 Best Deep Space Science Fiction Books"
http://best-sci-fi-books.com/25-best-deep-space-science-fiction-books/
I have read only 13 of these awesome 25 books. "hangs head in shame"
I have read almost none of these books. But I cannot imagine a world
in which DUNE is considered the best "deep space science fiction
book" with a straight face.
And no Norton? Really?
DUNE, minus sequels, portrays many locations
in a vast galactic society, plus many centuries
of history. It has a grand sweep. Like Star Wars.
But a lot of action on this one desert planet.
Like Star Wars.
For that matter, what about Asimov's Foundation,
for the same reasons (except non-metaphorical
desertification)?
I don't recall Norton stories going to /many/
different places - although the human political
organisation included many planets, we didn't
see many in one go. Maybe all of the stories
put together... or the "Solar Queen" series.
How many worlds are featured in Galactic Derelict?
I refer to Wikipedia; there seem to be three,
not counting this one. I think that's enough
to be interesting.
larry
2017-05-08 12:19:24 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by Garrett Wollman
Post by Lynn McGuire
"25 Best Deep Space Science Fiction Books"
http://best-sci-fi-books.com/25-best-deep-space-science-fiction-books/
I have read only 13 of these awesome 25 books. "hangs head in shame"
I have read almost none of these books. But I cannot imagine a world
in which DUNE is considered the best "deep space science fiction
book" with a straight face.
And no Norton? Really?
DUNE, minus sequels, portrays many locations
in a vast galactic society, plus many centuries
of history. It has a grand sweep. Like Star Wars.
But a lot of action on this one desert planet.
Like Star Wars.
For that matter, what about Asimov's Foundation,
for the same reasons (except non-metaphorical
desertification)?
I don't recall Norton stories going to /many/
different places - although the human political
organisation included many planets, we didn't
see many in one go. Maybe all of the stories
put together... or the "Solar Queen" series.
The refuelling station on one planet and the Baldies'
homeworld in one of the Time Traders stories ISTR.
--
After investigation, believe that which you have yourselves
tested and found reasonable, and which is for your good
and that of others.
Gautama.
Don Kuenz
2017-05-04 04:16:12 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Garrett Wollman
Post by Lynn McGuire
"25 Best Deep Space Science Fiction Books"
http://best-sci-fi-books.com/25-best-deep-space-science-fiction-books/
I have read only 13 of these awesome 25 books. "hangs head in shame"
I have read almost none of these books. But I cannot imagine a world
in which DUNE is considered the best "deep space science fiction
book" with a straight face.
And no Norton? Really?
Nor Known Space (Niven), which is no older than _Dune_.

Thank you,

--
Don Kuenz KB7RPU
larry
2017-05-06 22:58:42 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Garrett Wollman
Post by Lynn McGuire
"25 Best Deep Space Science Fiction Books"
http://best-sci-fi-books.com/25-best-deep-space-science-fiction-books/
I have read only 13 of these awesome 25 books. "hangs head in shame"
I have read almost none of these books. But I cannot imagine a world
in which DUNE is considered the best "deep space science fiction
book" with a straight face.
And no Norton? Really?
-GAWollman
No Le Guin?
No Lessing?
a425couple
2017-05-03 18:27:53 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Lynn McGuire
"25 Best Deep Space Science Fiction Books"
http://best-sci-fi-books.com/25-best-deep-space-science-fiction-books/
I have read only 13 of these awesome 25 books. "hangs head in shame"
I would have sworn that I read _Startide Rising_ but I do not see it on
my shelves.
Lynn
Thank you for posting that.
I've ordered one.
And will keep a couple more in mind as I go to
bookstores and thrift shops.
Lynn McGuire
2017-05-03 19:49:57 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Lynn McGuire
"25 Best Deep Space Science Fiction Books"
http://best-sci-fi-books.com/25-best-deep-space-science-fiction-books/
I have read only 13 of these awesome 25 books. "hangs head in shame"
I would have sworn that I read _Startide Rising_ but I do not see it
on my shelves.
Lynn
Thank you for posting that. I've ordered one. And will keep a couple
more in mind as I go to bookstores and thrift shops.
You are welcome. Dan Livingston at
http://best-sci-fi-books.com/
seems to have dozens of best SciFi lists.

I get his occasional newsletter to find out when he puts a new list up.

Lynn
a425couple
2017-05-03 20:45:25 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by Lynn McGuire
"25 Best Deep Space Science Fiction Books"
http://best-sci-fi-books.com/25-best-deep-space-science-fiction-books/
I have read only 13 of these awesome 25 books. "hangs head in shame"
I would have sworn that I read _Startide Rising_ but I do not see it on
my shelves.
Lynn
Thank you for posting that. I've ordered one. And will keep a couple more
in mind as I go to bookstores and thrift shops.
You are welcome. Dan Livingston at
http://best-sci-fi-books.com/
seems to have dozens of best SciFi lists.
Hmmmm,
#1 the earlier list included
Leviathan Wakes: Book 1 of the Expanse by James S. A. Corey

#2 this list = 17 Best Underrated Science Fiction Books
includes - Review: Abaddon’s Gate by James S. A. Corey

Meanwhile, somehow connected to that, I read:
"13 Outpost Mars by Cyril Judd – 1952
Hilariously, this book was released as Sin in Space in 1961. Its cover
featured a nubile young thing taking off her shirt as a helmeted astronaut
happily looks on. Do a Google image search for “Sin in Space” and you’ll see
how bad it is.
Here’s the back copy from that version: “A rocketing, sensational exposé of
sin in space; a story about a drug deadlier than heroin, more vicious than
morphine—this was the Martian narcotic that drenched a planet in crime and
perversion!”
Wow!
Despite this lurid marketing, Outpost Mars is actually good enough to stand
next to Red Planet and Sands of Mars, both books on this list."

Are we sure that Cyril Judd is not another name used by Silverberg?
OK, it's not.

I suppose there is a reason, it seems like Silverberg is never on
any of these 'top' lists.
Dorothy J Heydt
2017-05-03 20:54:12 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by a425couple
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by Lynn McGuire
"25 Best Deep Space Science Fiction Books"
http://best-sci-fi-books.com/25-best-deep-space-science-fiction-books/
I have read only 13 of these awesome 25 books. "hangs head in shame"
I would have sworn that I read _Startide Rising_ but I do not see it on
my shelves.
Lynn
Thank you for posting that. I've ordered one. And will keep a couple more
in mind as I go to bookstores and thrift shops.
You are welcome. Dan Livingston at
http://best-sci-fi-books.com/
seems to have dozens of best SciFi lists.
Hmmmm,
#1 the earlier list included
Leviathan Wakes: Book 1 of the Expanse by James S. A. Corey
#2 this list = 17 Best Underrated Science Fiction Books
includes - Review: Abaddon’s Gate by James S. A. Corey
"13 Outpost Mars by Cyril Judd – 1952
Hilariously, this book was released as Sin in Space in 1961. Its cover
featured a nubile young thing taking off her shirt as a helmeted astronaut
happily looks on. Do a Google image search for “Sin in Space” and
you’ll see
how bad it is.
Here’s the back copy from that version: “A rocketing, sensational
exposé of
sin in space; a story about a drug deadlier than heroin, more vicious than
morphine—this was the Martian narcotic that drenched a planet in crime and
perversion!”
Wow!
Despite this lurid marketing, Outpost Mars is actually good enough to stand
next to Red Planet and Sands of Mars, both books on this list."
Are we sure that Cyril Judd is not another name used by Silverberg?
OK, it's not.
Nope. "He" was Cyril M. Kornbuth and Judith Merrill.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
2017-05-03 21:36:15 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by a425couple
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by Lynn McGuire
"25 Best Deep Space Science Fiction Books"
http://best-sci-fi-books.com/25-best-deep-space-science-fictio
n-books/ I have read only 13 of these awesome 25 books.
"hangs head in shame" I would have sworn that I read
_Startide Rising_ but I do not see it on my shelves.
Lynn
Thank you for posting that. I've ordered one. And will keep a
couple more in mind as I go to bookstores and thrift shops.
You are welcome. Dan Livingston at
http://best-sci-fi-books.com/
seems to have dozens of best SciFi lists.
Hmmmm,
#1 the earlier list included
Leviathan Wakes: Book 1 of the Expanse by James S. A. Corey
#2 this list = 17 Best Underrated Science Fiction Books
includes - Review: Abaddon’s Gate by James S. A. Corey
If you go back through his various lists, there are clearly several
books that are particular favorites.
Post by a425couple
I suppose there is a reason, it seems like Silverberg is never
on any of these 'top' lists.
Majipoor shows up on the "best series" list.
--
Terry Austin

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.
Magewolf
2017-05-03 20:16:25 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Lynn McGuire
"25 Best Deep Space Science Fiction Books"
http://best-sci-fi-books.com/25-best-deep-space-science-fiction-books/
I have read only 13 of these awesome 25 books. "hangs head in shame"
I would have sworn that I read _Startide Rising_ but I do not see it on
my shelves.
Lynn
I have read 14 or 15 of them. I think I read Bios but I remember nothing
about it so I might have just looked at it.

And to be fair to James I do not agree that several of these book are
deep space based in any reasonable fashion.
James Nicoll
2017-05-03 20:25:24 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Magewolf
Post by Lynn McGuire
"25 Best Deep Space Science Fiction Books"
http://best-sci-fi-books.com/25-best-deep-space-science-fiction-books/
I have read only 13 of these awesome 25 books. "hangs head in shame"
I would have sworn that I read _Startide Rising_ but I do not see it on
my shelves.
Lynn
I have read 14 or 15 of them. I think I read Bios but I remember nothing
about it so I might have just looked at it.
And to be fair to James I do not agree that several of these book are
deep space based in any reasonable fashion.
I would angrily shout about the absense of INTO DEEPEST SPACE if only
IDS was any good. Bad Hoyle is very, very bad indeed.
--
My reviews can be found at http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/
My Livejournal at http://www.livejournal.com/users/james_nicoll
My patreon is at https://www.patreon.com/jamesdnicoll
David Johnston
2017-05-04 00:11:13 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by James Nicoll
Post by Magewolf
Post by Lynn McGuire
"25 Best Deep Space Science Fiction Books"
http://best-sci-fi-books.com/25-best-deep-space-science-fiction-books/
I have read only 13 of these awesome 25 books. "hangs head in shame"
I would have sworn that I read _Startide Rising_ but I do not see it on
my shelves.
Lynn
I have read 14 or 15 of them. I think I read Bios but I remember nothing
about it so I might have just looked at it.
And to be fair to James I do not agree that several of these book are
deep space based in any reasonable fashion.
I would angrily shout about the absense of INTO DEEPEST SPACE if only
IDS was any good. Bad Hoyle is very, very bad indeed.
I'd put in a vote for Voyage of the Space Beagle one of the few Van
Vogts I respect. Could go with Transgalactic except that another damn
Van Vogtian superman Mary Sues up latter part of the book.
Ted Nolan <tednolan>
2017-05-04 03:01:37 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by David Johnston
Post by James Nicoll
Post by Magewolf
Post by Lynn McGuire
"25 Best Deep Space Science Fiction Books"
http://best-sci-fi-books.com/25-best-deep-space-science-fiction-books/
I have read only 13 of these awesome 25 books. "hangs head in shame"
I would have sworn that I read _Startide Rising_ but I do not see it on
my shelves.
Lynn
I have read 14 or 15 of them. I think I read Bios but I remember nothing
about it so I might have just looked at it.
And to be fair to James I do not agree that several of these book are
deep space based in any reasonable fashion.
I would angrily shout about the absense of INTO DEEPEST SPACE if only
IDS was any good. Bad Hoyle is very, very bad indeed.
I'd put in a vote for Voyage of the Space Beagle one of the few Van
Vogts I respect. Could go with Transgalactic except that another damn
Van Vogtian superman Mary Sues up latter part of the book.
I'd probably go with "The Storm" for deep-space VV.
--
------
columbiaclosings.com
What's not in Columbia anymore..
David Johnston
2017-05-04 04:51:44 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Post by David Johnston
Post by James Nicoll
Post by Magewolf
Post by Lynn McGuire
"25 Best Deep Space Science Fiction Books"
http://best-sci-fi-books.com/25-best-deep-space-science-fiction-books/
I have read only 13 of these awesome 25 books. "hangs head in shame"
I would have sworn that I read _Startide Rising_ but I do not see it on
my shelves.
Lynn
I have read 14 or 15 of them. I think I read Bios but I remember nothing
about it so I might have just looked at it.
And to be fair to James I do not agree that several of these book are
deep space based in any reasonable fashion.
I would angrily shout about the absense of INTO DEEPEST SPACE if only
IDS was any good. Bad Hoyle is very, very bad indeed.
I'd put in a vote for Voyage of the Space Beagle one of the few Van
Vogts I respect. Could go with Transgalactic except that another damn
Van Vogtian superman Mary Sues up latter part of the book.
I'd probably go with "The Storm" for deep-space VV.
I was actually thinking of the whole fix-up novel that included "The
Storm" although "Transgalactic" was only the first part it and the real
title was "Mission to the Stars"
Ted Nolan <tednolan>
2017-05-04 05:00:53 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by David Johnston
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Post by David Johnston
Post by James Nicoll
Post by Magewolf
Post by Lynn McGuire
"25 Best Deep Space Science Fiction Books"
http://best-sci-fi-books.com/25-best-deep-space-science-fiction-books/
I have read only 13 of these awesome 25 books. "hangs head in shame"
I would have sworn that I read _Startide Rising_ but I do not see it on
my shelves.
Lynn
I have read 14 or 15 of them. I think I read Bios but I remember nothing
about it so I might have just looked at it.
And to be fair to James I do not agree that several of these book are
deep space based in any reasonable fashion.
I would angrily shout about the absense of INTO DEEPEST SPACE if only
IDS was any good. Bad Hoyle is very, very bad indeed.
I'd put in a vote for Voyage of the Space Beagle one of the few Van
Vogts I respect. Could go with Transgalactic except that another damn
Van Vogtian superman Mary Sues up latter part of the book.
I'd probably go with "The Storm" for deep-space VV.
I was actually thinking of the whole fix-up novel that included "The
Storm" although "Transgalactic" was only the first part it and the real
title was "Mission to the Stars"
aka _The Mixed Men_ iirc

and featuring VV's very ideosyncratic idea of "robot".
--
------
columbiaclosings.com
What's not in Columbia anymore..
David Johnston
2017-05-04 05:06:58 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Post by David Johnston
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Post by David Johnston
Post by James Nicoll
Post by Magewolf
Post by Lynn McGuire
"25 Best Deep Space Science Fiction Books"
http://best-sci-fi-books.com/25-best-deep-space-science-fiction-books/
I have read only 13 of these awesome 25 books. "hangs head in shame"
I would have sworn that I read _Startide Rising_ but I do not see it on
my shelves.
Lynn
I have read 14 or 15 of them. I think I read Bios but I remember nothing
about it so I might have just looked at it.
And to be fair to James I do not agree that several of these book are
deep space based in any reasonable fashion.
I would angrily shout about the absense of INTO DEEPEST SPACE if only
IDS was any good. Bad Hoyle is very, very bad indeed.
I'd put in a vote for Voyage of the Space Beagle one of the few Van
Vogts I respect. Could go with Transgalactic except that another damn
Van Vogtian superman Mary Sues up latter part of the book.
I'd probably go with "The Storm" for deep-space VV.
I was actually thinking of the whole fix-up novel that included "The
Storm" although "Transgalactic" was only the first part it and the real
title was "Mission to the Stars"
aka _The Mixed Men_ iirc
and featuring VV's very ideosyncratic idea of "robot".
Oh that was just because after the first story he wanted to have Mr.
Mary Sue romance the captain and if he was really an android there would
be an ick factor.
Robert Carnegie
2017-05-03 21:35:44 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Magewolf
Post by Lynn McGuire
"25 Best Deep Space Science Fiction Books"
http://best-sci-fi-books.com/25-best-deep-space-science-fiction-books/
I have read only 13 of these awesome 25 books. "hangs head in shame"
I would have sworn that I read _Startide Rising_ but I do not see it on
my shelves.
Lynn
I have read 14 or 15 of them. I think I read Bios but I remember nothing
about it so I might have just looked at it.
And to be fair to James I do not agree that several of these book are
deep space based in any reasonable fashion.
I think "deep space" just means escaping from
the Earth-Moon system, yes? In the (very)
old days, sublunary space was the distinction.
Technically the Moon still orbits the Earth
(unless you argue that technically it doesn't).
"Have Spacesuit" gets to, um, Pluto?

There may be a relative preponderance of Celts -
I thought for some reason Alastair Reynolds was
Scottish; once I get over finding he's Welsh
it may be a relief. Less guilt at having read
less of him than I felt I ought.
Dorothy J Heydt
2017-05-03 23:31:17 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by Magewolf
Post by Lynn McGuire
"25 Best Deep Space Science Fiction Books"
http://best-sci-fi-books.com/25-best-deep-space-science-fiction-books/
I have read only 13 of these awesome 25 books. "hangs head in shame"
I would have sworn that I read _Startide Rising_ but I do not see it on
my shelves.
Lynn
I have read 14 or 15 of them. I think I read Bios but I remember nothing
about it so I might have just looked at it.
And to be fair to James I do not agree that several of these book are
deep space based in any reasonable fashion.
I think "deep space" just means escaping from
the Earth-Moon system, yes? In the (very)
old days, sublunary space was the distinction.
Technically the Moon still orbits the Earth
(unless you argue that technically it doesn't).
"Have Spacesuit" gets to, um, Pluto?
There may be a relative preponderance of Celts -
I thought for some reason Alastair Reynolds was
Scottish; once I get over finding he's Welsh
it may be a relief. Less guilt at having read
less of him than I felt I ought.
Um ... Welsh are also Celts. You knew that, I hope.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
a425couple
2017-05-04 18:49:35 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by Magewolf
Post by Lynn McGuire
"25 Best Deep Space Science Fiction Books"
http://best-sci-fi-books.com/25-best-deep-space-science-fiction-books/
And to be fair to James I do not agree that several of these book are
deep space based in any reasonable fashion.
I think "deep space" just means escaping from
the Earth-Moon system, yes? In the (very)
old days, sublunary space was the distinction.
Technically the Moon still orbits the Earth
(unless you argue that technically it doesn't).
"Have Spacesuit" gets to, um, Pluto?
No, the main actors in "Have Spacesuit will Travel" seriously
travel to a planet in another solar system. Then:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Have_Space_Suit%E2%80%94Will_Travel
"Once Kip is well, he, Peewee, and the Mother Thing travel to a planet
in the Lesser Magellanic Cloud, to face an intergalactic tribunal, composed
of many advanced species which have banded together for self-protection."
Greg Goss
2017-05-07 18:42:44 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by a425couple
Post by Robert Carnegie
"Have Spacesuit" gets to, um, Pluto?
No, the main actors in "Have Spacesuit will Travel" seriously
I forgot about the sequence on the Vega planet.
Post by a425couple
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Have_Space_Suit%E2%80%94Will_Travel
"Once Kip is well, he, Peewee, and the Mother Thing travel to a planet
in the Lesser Magellanic Cloud, to face an intergalactic tribunal, composed
of many advanced species which have banded together for self-protection."
--
We are geeks. Resistance is voltage over current.
Greg Goss
2017-05-07 18:41:48 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Robert Carnegie
I think "deep space" just means escaping from
the Earth-Moon system, yes? In the (very)
old days, sublunary space was the distinction.
Technically the Moon still orbits the Earth
(unless you argue that technically it doesn't).
"Have Spacesuit" gets to, um, Pluto?
After they get rescued from Pluto, there's a trial set somewhere in
the Magellanic Clouds.
--
We are geeks. Resistance is voltage over current.
David DeLaney
2017-05-05 11:48:17 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Magewolf
Post by Lynn McGuire
"25 Best Deep Space Science Fiction Books"
http://best-sci-fi-books.com/25-best-deep-space-science-fiction-books/
I have read only 13 of these awesome 25 books. "hangs head in shame"
I would have sworn that I read _Startide Rising_ but I do not see it on
my shelves.
Lynn
I have read 14 or 15 of them. I think I read Bios but I remember nothing
about it so I might have just looked at it.
I've got 17 or 18, depending on Newton's Wake, which I may or may not have
conflated with Newton's Cannon, and then The Dispossessed has been in my
to-read stacks for literally decades. Maybe some day.

Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting thru EarthLink - "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
gatekeeper.vic.com/~dbd - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.
William Hyde
2017-05-05 21:02:19 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by David DeLaney
Post by Magewolf
Post by Lynn McGuire
"25 Best Deep Space Science Fiction Books"
http://best-sci-fi-books.com/25-best-deep-space-science-fiction-books/
I have read only 13 of these awesome 25 books. "hangs head in shame"
I would have sworn that I read _Startide Rising_ but I do not see it on
my shelves.
Lynn
I have read 14 or 15 of them. I think I read Bios but I remember nothing
about it so I might have just looked at it.
I've got 17 or 18, depending on Newton's Wake, which I may or may not have
conflated with Newton's Cannon, and then The Dispossessed has been in my
to-read stacks for literally decades. Maybe some day.
I got TD from the book club when it came out. Stalled about page 75 when someone says something insanely sexist (I was over-wary of "Bad Ursula" in those days), picked it up thirty years later and read it almost at a sitting. Recommended.

It didn't hurt that in the interim I'd come to know a number of socialists, even mild anarchists (if that makes the least sense). I could see their ideas and attitudes reflected in the book, which gave it a realism I hadn't seen before.

William Hyde
William Hyde
2017-05-03 20:41:16 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Lynn McGuire
"25 Best Deep Space Science Fiction Books"
http://best-sci-fi-books.com/25-best-deep-space-science-fiction-books/
I have read only 13 of these awesome 25 books. "hangs head in shame"
I've read fifteen, but I have no excuse for most of the other ten except that I simply did not like "Cyteen".

I avoided "The Sparrow" when I saw it because I'd just had an overdose of James Blish. An ill-considered decision, but my quota of Jesuits/day is very low.

The fifteen I did read were indeed very good. I should order some, but my project for this year (and next) is a complete Dickens read, and I am already eying with alarm a thick copy of "Nicholas Nickleby".

The diversity in theme of the list is interesting. "The Dispossessed" is not a typical deep-space novel. Nor is "The Stars my Destination" or "Hitchhiker".
Post by Lynn McGuire
I would have sworn that I read _Startide Rising_ but I do not see it on
my shelves.
Well, more fun ahead for you.

William Hyde
Chris Buckley
2017-05-03 22:36:13 UTC
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Post by Lynn McGuire
"25 Best Deep Space Science Fiction Books"
http://best-sci-fi-books.com/25-best-deep-space-science-fiction-books/
I have read only 13 of these awesome 25 books. "hangs head in shame"
I would have sworn that I read _Startide Rising_ but I do not see it on
my shelves.
A good list. I've read 23 of them - missing the Macleod and the
Wilson, both authors that I have 4-5 other books by, but I don't feel a
need to buy every book of theirs. 17 of the 25 are on my "top
bookcase" of favorites list.

Lynn, I would definitely recommend _Startide Rising_ to you; I think
you would enjoy it. (There are others I would not recommend for you,
like _Solaris_).

Chris
a425couple
2017-05-03 23:07:40 UTC
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Post by Lynn McGuire
"25 Best Deep Space Science Fiction Books"
http://best-sci-fi-books.com/25-best-deep-space-science-fiction-books/
I have read only 13 of these awesome 25 books. "hangs head in shame"
Meanwhile, in thinking about the classification, "Deep Space",
I would suggest that "The Songs of Distant Earth" by
Arthur C. Clarke should be close up there for consideration.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Songs_of_Distant_Earth
I think it is pleasant, interesting, and thought provoking.

i.e. How does a robot alone, rear a human embryo, into a baby,
toddler, then adulthood? (after first generation, then easier
as humans can help rear the young.)
i.e. What is the closest, that any human culture been, that had
no supreme being?
Greg Goss
2017-05-07 18:44:27 UTC
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Post by a425couple
i.e. What is the closest, that any human culture been, that had
no supreme being?
Modern Scandinavia? I think that the various countries might even
have an "official" religion, but I've been told that most of the urban
residents are atheists.
--
We are geeks. Resistance is voltage over current.
Torbjorn Lindgren
2017-05-07 21:57:40 UTC
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Post by Greg Goss
Post by a425couple
i.e. What is the closest, that any human culture been, that had
no supreme being?
Modern Scandinavia? I think that the various countries might even
have an "official" religion,
It's a bit more... complicated.

Norway and Denmark still has an official "state church" (IE there's
state involvement and it's the official religion) while Sweden and
Finland has gone one step further and have formally cut the
state/church tie. This means the former state church is now a
"national church" with AFAIK no legal significance.
Post by Greg Goss
but I've been told that most of the urban residents are atheists.
A significant majority in all four countries is a member of the
respective state or national church (60%-75%).

However it needs to be noted that this is largely related to current
(DK/NO) or former (SE/FI) automatic entrollent under certain
circumstances (at least one parent had to be a member of the church
AFAIK), so this doesn't necessarily correlate with what "people
think".

Also, a lot depend on definition of atheism (is "not religious"
enought?) and how/when the question is asked.

An argument can be made that China is at the top of the "atheism
percentage" list, but other think the Chinese Communist party
qualifies as religion and then they're pretty far down on the list
and/or that their result is incorrect due to them prosecuting
religions (like many of the communist regimes).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_irreligion
Juho Julkunen
2017-05-07 22:37:05 UTC
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Post by Torbjorn Lindgren
Post by Greg Goss
Post by a425couple
i.e. What is the closest, that any human culture been, that had
no supreme being?
Modern Scandinavia? I think that the various countries might even
have an "official" religion,
It's a bit more... complicated.
Norway and Denmark still has an official "state church" (IE there's
state involvement and it's the official religion) while Sweden and
Finland has gone one step further and have formally cut the
state/church tie. This means the former state church is now a
"national church" with AFAIK no legal significance.
Finland has not quite severed the official ties with the Evangelican
Lutheran church. It still has some public duties (maintenance of
graveyards), membership fees are collected as church tax along
municipal taxes, "Religion" is a compulsory subject in schools (for
members of national church), and priests are trained in the publically
funded universities.
Post by Torbjorn Lindgren
Post by Greg Goss
but I've been told that most of the urban residents are atheists.
A significant majority in all four countries is a member of the
respective state or national church (60%-75%).
However it needs to be noted that this is largely related to current
(DK/NO) or former (SE/FI) automatic entrollent under certain
circumstances (at least one parent had to be a member of the church
AFAIK), so this doesn't necessarily correlate with what "people
think".
EL church practises infant babtism. I, like most Finns, became a member
somewhat before I could have given meaningful consent. Since 1929 it
has been legal in Finland to leave the church, and membership has been
generally in decline ever since.

Roughly half of the members profess to believe the central tenets of
the religion. The other half presumably stays out of habit.
Post by Torbjorn Lindgren
Also, a lot depend on definition of atheism (is "not religious"
enought?) and how/when the question is asked.
If we go with "no supreme being", non religious might suffice. Or
Buddhist, I suppose. But yeah, answers vary wildly, depending.

http://www.adherents.com/largecom/com_atheist.html
--
Juho Julkunen
Lawrence Watt-Evans
2017-05-08 07:02:42 UTC
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On Sun, 7 May 2017 21:57:40 -0000 (UTC), Torbjorn Lindgren
Post by Torbjorn Lindgren
An argument can be made that China is at the top of the "atheism
percentage" list, but other think the Chinese Communist party
qualifies as religion and then they're pretty far down on the list
and/or that their result is incorrect due to them prosecuting
religions (like many of the communist regimes).
Oh, China's more complicated than that.

Mao is now a Daoist deity -- you can buy idols of him, and make
offerings to him, though as yet I'm not aware of any actual temples
dedicated to him. But the people who worship him aren't generally
Communists; they're Daoists or animists, and some may well claim to be
atheists. We met a cab driver who seemed to fall into that category
-- he denied having any religion, but had a picture of Mao in the form
of a prayer card hanging from his rear-view mirror, and seemed to be
venerating it.

(No one has yet declared Mao a bodhisattva, to the best of my
knowledge, so the Buddhists don't buy his idols.)

In the last forty years Confucianism has gone from being banned to
being actively encouraged, as it encourages respect for authority --
but does it count as a religion, or a philosophy, as currently
practiced? The seventy-two sages aren't really considered divine, and
the old temples are mostly now schools rather than places of worship
-- but in 2006 we saw people burning incense and bowing to statues of
the sages in Jiading's old Palace of the Autumn Wind.

There's also the issue that the Chinese don't see anything
unreasonable about following multiple religions simultaneously.

It's probably impossible to know how many followers each religion has
in China because they do overlap, and get fuzzy around the edges, and
people don't even agree on what constitutes religion and what doesn't.
--
My webpage is at http://www.watt-evans.com
lal_truckee
2017-05-08 01:07:27 UTC
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i.e. What is the closest, that any human culture been, that had no
supreme being?
Buddhists.
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