Discussion:
Heinlein's ss "Project Nightmare".
(too old to reply)
a425couple
2017-04-17 15:29:04 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Heinlein's book "The Meanace From Earth" is a collection of
short stories. They include "Project Nightmare".

So the last couple of years we have faced increasing
concern about North Korea's development of Atomic
Bombs and their threats to use them. Tricky situation
with no easy solution visible. Then the most recent early
missile failure -----, reminded me of "Project Nightmare".

In that story:
"Russian Embasy today handed State ultimatum --
Demands USA convert to 'peoples republic'----
Note claims major US cities (list separate) are
mined with Atomic Bombs which they threaten
to set off by radio if terms are not met by ---"

Good citizens with telekinetic ability, get us through
that threat, and then move on to really adjust the threat.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Nightmare
Are hackers doing what Heinlein had telekinetics do?
Certainly computers do a considerable portion of
arming and fusing a warhead.
Could a hacker set off a different country's weapon????
David Johnston
2017-04-17 17:31:23 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Heinlein's book "The Meanace From Earth" is a collection of short
stories. They include "Project Nightmare".
So the last couple of years we have faced increasing concern about North
Korea's development of Atomic Bombs and their threats to use them.
Tricky situation with no easy solution visible. Then the most recent
early missile failure -----, reminded me of "Project Nightmare".
"Russian Embasy today handed State ultimatum --
Demands USA convert to 'peoples republic'----
Note claims major US cities (list separate) are
mined with Atomic Bombs which they threaten
to set off by radio if terms are not met by ---"
Good citizens with telekinetic ability, get us through that threat, and
then move on to really adjust the threat.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Nightmare
Are hackers doing what Heinlein had telekinetics do? Certainly computers
do a considerable portion of arming and fusing a warhead. Could a hacker
set off a different country's weapon????
No. That's impossible. Missiles are not connected to the web.
Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
2017-04-17 17:53:02 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by David Johnston
Post by a425couple
Heinlein's book "The Meanace From Earth" is a collection of
short stories. They include "Project Nightmare".
So the last couple of years we have faced increasing concern
about North Korea's development of Atomic Bombs and their
threats to use them. Tricky situation with no easy solution
visible. Then the most recent early missile failure -----,
reminded me of "Project Nightmare".
"Russian Embasy today handed State ultimatum --
Demands USA convert to 'peoples republic'----
Note claims major US cities (list separate) are
mined with Atomic Bombs which they threaten
to set off by radio if terms are not met by ---"
Good citizens with telekinetic ability, get us through that
threat, and then move on to really adjust the threat.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Nightmare
Are hackers doing what Heinlein had telekinetics do? Certainly
computers do a considerable portion of arming and fusing a
warhead. Could a hacker set off a different country's
weapon????
No. That's impossible. Missiles are not connected to the web.
If you believe that all computer attacks must go through the web,
and only the web, you're as stupid as you look.

There is, in fact, considerably speculation that North Korea's
missile program, based on Soviet designs that had a 13% failure
rate, fails 88% of the time because of various cyber-attacks.
Iran's nuclear program was sabotages with printer firmware that
destroyed centrifuges. Russia compromised NATO with infeced USB
drives. And so on.
--
Terry Austin

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.
Peter Trei
2017-04-17 18:27:38 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
Post by David Johnston
Post by a425couple
Heinlein's book "The Meanace From Earth" is a collection of
short stories. They include "Project Nightmare".
So the last couple of years we have faced increasing concern
about North Korea's development of Atomic Bombs and their
threats to use them. Tricky situation with no easy solution
visible. Then the most recent early missile failure -----,
reminded me of "Project Nightmare".
"Russian Embasy today handed State ultimatum --
Demands USA convert to 'peoples republic'----
Note claims major US cities (list separate) are
mined with Atomic Bombs which they threaten
to set off by radio if terms are not met by ---"
Good citizens with telekinetic ability, get us through that
threat, and then move on to really adjust the threat.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Nightmare
Are hackers doing what Heinlein had telekinetics do? Certainly
computers do a considerable portion of arming and fusing a
warhead. Could a hacker set off a different country's
weapon????
No. That's impossible. Missiles are not connected to the web.
If you believe that all computer attacks must go through the web,
and only the web, you're as stupid as you look.
There is, in fact, considerably speculation that North Korea's
missile program, based on Soviet designs that had a 13% failure
rate, fails 88% of the time because of various cyber-attacks.
Iran's nuclear program was sabotages with printer firmware that
destroyed centrifuges. Russia compromised NATO with infeced USB
drives. And so on.
The Iran attack was a bit different (I had to study Stuxnet in a previous
job). It had several stages, and initially infected (by, among other things,
USB keys dropped in the parking lot) Windows workstations running Siemen's
Step 7 software, which is used to develop code for SCADA system PLCs (the
actual devices which do process control for industrial equipment, including
centrifuges). It would compromise the Step 7 SW, so that when a certain very
specific configuration was being programmed, it would secretly insert code
to vary the speeds of the centrifuges at random, causing them to eventually
fail, all the while reporting back that they were at normal speed and operating
nominally.

This caused the centrifuges to eventually and mysteriously fail.

pt
Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
2017-04-17 18:53:42 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Peter Trei
Post by Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
Post by David Johnston
Post by a425couple
Heinlein's book "The Meanace From Earth" is a collection of
short stories. They include "Project Nightmare".
So the last couple of years we have faced increasing concern
about North Korea's development of Atomic Bombs and their
threats to use them. Tricky situation with no easy solution
visible. Then the most recent early missile failure -----,
reminded me of "Project Nightmare".
"Russian Embasy today handed State ultimatum --
Demands USA convert to 'peoples republic'----
Note claims major US cities (list separate) are
mined with Atomic Bombs which they threaten
to set off by radio if terms are not met by ---"
Good citizens with telekinetic ability, get us through that
threat, and then move on to really adjust the threat.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Nightmare
Are hackers doing what Heinlein had telekinetics do?
Certainly computers do a considerable portion of arming and
fusing a warhead. Could a hacker set off a different
country's weapon????
No. That's impossible. Missiles are not connected to the
web.
If you believe that all computer attacks must go through the
web, and only the web, you're as stupid as you look.
There is, in fact, considerably speculation that North Korea's
missile program, based on Soviet designs that had a 13% failure
rate, fails 88% of the time because of various cyber-attacks.
Iran's nuclear program was sabotages with printer firmware that
destroyed centrifuges. Russia compromised NATO with infeced USB
drives. And so on.
The Iran attack was a bit different (I had to study Stuxnet in a
previous job). It had several stages, and initially infected
(by, among other things, USB keys dropped in the parking lot)
Windows workstations running Siemen's Step 7 software, which is
used to develop code for SCADA system PLCs (the actual devices
which do process control for industrial equipment, including
centrifuges). It would compromise the Step 7 SW, so that when a
certain very specific configuration was being programmed, it
would secretly insert code to vary the speeds of the centrifuges
at random, causing them to eventually fail, all the while
reporting back that they were at normal speed and operating
nominally.
This caused the centrifuges to eventually and mysteriously fail.
Which is to say, there are many ways to compromise a computer
besides the web.

(There have been demonstrations of doing so using audio signals
between computers not connected to any network, in frequency ranges
beyodn human hearing, too.)
--
Terry Austin

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.
Quadibloc
2017-04-17 18:38:49 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
If you believe that all computer attacks must go through the web,
and only the web, you're as stupid as you look.
Joe Hacker, though, unlike the NSA, might find it hard to get a compromised USB
drive into North Korea, or otherwise deal with their airgaps. Oversimplifying in a
brief USENET post is not evidence of ignorance.

John Savard
Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
2017-04-17 18:54:46 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Quadibloc
Post by Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
If you believe that all computer attacks must go through the
web, and only the web, you're as stupid as you look.
Joe Hacker, though, unlike the NSA, might find it hard to get a
compromised USB drive into North Korea, or otherwise deal with
their airgaps.
Or not. "Joe Hacker" includes a hell of a lot of malware writers who
engage in billions of dollars worth of fraud. Some of them are very,
very clever.
Post by Quadibloc
Oversimplifying in a brief USENET post is not
evidence of ignorance.
You, however, are.
--
Terry Austin

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.
Kevrob
2017-04-17 18:45:15 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
Russia compromised NATO with infeced USB
drives. And so on.
I know that was supposed to be "infected," but the typo
works, too.:)

Kevin R
Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
2017-04-17 18:55:35 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Kevrob
Post by Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
Russia compromised NATO with infeced USB
drives. And so on.
I know that was supposed to be "infected," but the typo
works, too.:)
Er, yeah, I meant to do that. Yeah, that's the ticket. That's my
story and I'm sticking to it. (And if I fling it hard enough, it'll
stick to the wall, too.)
--
Terry Austin

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.
Mike Van Pelt
2017-04-18 23:42:00 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
There is, in fact, considerably speculation that North Korea's
missile program, based on Soviet designs that had a 13% failure
rate, fails 88% of the time because of various cyber-attacks.
Or, perhaps, whenever anything does not work completely perfectly,
everyone involved is summarily executed, which tends to make it
difficult to learn from one's mistakes. Also, the smart people
tend to want to Be Someplace Else.
--
"The urge to save humanity is almost | Mike Van Pelt
always a false front for the urge to rule." | mvp at calweb.com
-- H.L. Mencken | KE6BVH
Dimensional Traveler
2017-04-19 00:18:42 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Mike Van Pelt
Post by Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
There is, in fact, considerably speculation that North Korea's
missile program, based on Soviet designs that had a 13% failure
rate, fails 88% of the time because of various cyber-attacks.
Or, perhaps, whenever anything does not work completely perfectly,
everyone involved is summarily executed, which tends to make it
difficult to learn from one's mistakes. Also, the smart people
tend to want to Be Someplace Else.
There is also the "based on Soviet designs". North Korea is not using
unmodified Soviet designs. They are tinkering with them trying to make
them do things they weren't intended to.
--
Some days you just don't have enough middle fingers!
Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
2017-04-19 00:51:55 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Dimensional Traveler
Post by Mike Van Pelt
Post by Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
There is, in fact, considerably speculation that North Korea's
missile program, based on Soviet designs that had a 13%
failure rate, fails 88% of the time because of various
cyber-attacks.
Or, perhaps, whenever anything does not work completely
perfectly, everyone involved is summarily executed, which tends
to make it difficult to learn from one's mistakes. Also, the
smart people tend to want to Be Someplace Else.
There is also the "based on Soviet designs". North Korea is not
using unmodified Soviet designs. They are tinkering with them
trying to make them do things they weren't intended to.
Even so, with such an extreme failure rate, either they have
extraordinarily incompetent rocket scientists, or there's some other
factor(s) at work.
--
Terry Austin

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.
Lawrence Watt-Evans
2017-04-19 05:07:27 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On Tue, 18 Apr 2017 17:51:55 -0700, Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
Post by Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
Post by Dimensional Traveler
Post by Mike Van Pelt
Post by Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
There is, in fact, considerably speculation that North Korea's
missile program, based on Soviet designs that had a 13%
failure rate, fails 88% of the time because of various
cyber-attacks.
Or, perhaps, whenever anything does not work completely
perfectly, everyone involved is summarily executed, which tends
to make it difficult to learn from one's mistakes. Also, the
smart people tend to want to Be Someplace Else.
There is also the "based on Soviet designs". North Korea is not
using unmodified Soviet designs. They are tinkering with them
trying to make them do things they weren't intended to.
Even so, with such an extreme failure rate, either they have
extraordinarily incompetent rocket scientists, or there's some other
factor(s) at work.
If they're foolish enough to use slave labor anywhere in the
manufacturing process, that could contribute. Sabotage is fun.
--
My webpage is at http://www.watt-evans.com
Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
2017-04-19 06:11:57 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Lawrence Watt-Evans
On Tue, 18 Apr 2017 17:51:55 -0700, Gutless Umbrella Carrying
Post by Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
Post by Dimensional Traveler
Post by Mike Van Pelt
Post by Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
There is, in fact, considerably speculation that North
Korea's missile program, based on Soviet designs that had a
13% failure rate, fails 88% of the time because of various
cyber-attacks.
Or, perhaps, whenever anything does not work completely
perfectly, everyone involved is summarily executed, which
tends to make it difficult to learn from one's mistakes.
Also, the smart people tend to want to Be Someplace Else.
There is also the "based on Soviet designs". North Korea is
not using unmodified Soviet designs. They are tinkering with
them trying to make them do things they weren't intended to.
Even so, with such an extreme failure rate, either they have
extraordinarily incompetent rocket scientists, or there's some
other factor(s) at work.
If they're foolish enough to use slave labor anywhere in the
manufacturing process, that could contribute. Sabotage is fun.
If it is outside sabotage, it isn't even a given that it is the US
behind it. Russia has no reason to want North Korea to have nuclear
tipped ICBMs, and while China has long had the attitude - in public
- that North Korea isn't their problem, working nukes on top of
working long range missiles are very much China's problem.
--
Terry Austin

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.
Lawrence Watt-Evans
2017-04-19 06:55:22 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On Tue, 18 Apr 2017 23:11:57 -0700, Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
Post by Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
Post by Lawrence Watt-Evans
On Tue, 18 Apr 2017 17:51:55 -0700, Gutless Umbrella Carrying
Post by Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
Post by Dimensional Traveler
Post by Mike Van Pelt
Post by Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
There is, in fact, considerably speculation that North
Korea's missile program, based on Soviet designs that had a
13% failure rate, fails 88% of the time because of various
cyber-attacks.
Or, perhaps, whenever anything does not work completely
perfectly, everyone involved is summarily executed, which
tends to make it difficult to learn from one's mistakes.
Also, the smart people tend to want to Be Someplace Else.
There is also the "based on Soviet designs". North Korea is
not using unmodified Soviet designs. They are tinkering with
them trying to make them do things they weren't intended to.
Even so, with such an extreme failure rate, either they have
extraordinarily incompetent rocket scientists, or there's some
other factor(s) at work.
If they're foolish enough to use slave labor anywhere in the
manufacturing process, that could contribute. Sabotage is fun.
If it is outside sabotage, it isn't even a given that it is the US
behind it. Russia has no reason to want North Korea to have nuclear
tipped ICBMs, and while China has long had the attitude - in public
- that North Korea isn't their problem, working nukes on top of
working long range missiles are very much China's problem.
Oh, I meant internal sabotage by workers who aren't particularly fond
of the government.
--
My webpage is at http://www.watt-evans.com
Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
2017-04-19 16:24:43 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Lawrence Watt-Evans
On Tue, 18 Apr 2017 23:11:57 -0700, Gutless Umbrella Carrying
Post by Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
Post by Lawrence Watt-Evans
On Tue, 18 Apr 2017 17:51:55 -0700, Gutless Umbrella Carrying
Post by Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
Post by Dimensional Traveler
Post by Mike Van Pelt
Post by Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
There is, in fact, considerably speculation that North
Korea's missile program, based on Soviet designs that had
a 13% failure rate, fails 88% of the time because of
various cyber-attacks.
Or, perhaps, whenever anything does not work completely
perfectly, everyone involved is summarily executed, which
tends to make it difficult to learn from one's mistakes.
Also, the smart people tend to want to Be Someplace Else.
There is also the "based on Soviet designs". North Korea is
not using unmodified Soviet designs. They are tinkering
with them trying to make them do things they weren't
intended to.
Even so, with such an extreme failure rate, either they have
extraordinarily incompetent rocket scientists, or there's some
other factor(s) at work.
If they're foolish enough to use slave labor anywhere in the
manufacturing process, that could contribute. Sabotage is
fun.
If it is outside sabotage, it isn't even a given that it is the
US behind it. Russia has no reason to want North Korea to have
nuclear tipped ICBMs, and while China has long had the attitude
- in public - that North Korea isn't their problem, working
nukes on top of working long range missiles are very much
China's problem.
Oh, I meant internal sabotage by workers who aren't particularly
fond of the government.
Yeah, that's certainly a possibility, too.
--
Terry Austin

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.
Sherlock
2017-07-02 04:39:14 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On Tue, 18 Apr 2017 17:51:55 -0700, Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
Post by Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
Even so, with such an extreme failure rate, either they have
extraordinarily incompetent rocket scientists, or there's some other
factor(s) at work.
I remember well the live radio broadcast of the launch of Vanguard in
the late 50s. Our great hope to catch up with Sputnik.

"We have ignition. Thrust. Release. ........ It just fell over".

There is a news reel if you prefer delightful explosions.

N Korea is where we were in the 50s and having the same problems
building something with no experience. Hint, we got them working.

Then again, there is the more recent Challenger.
Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
2017-07-02 07:54:13 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Lawrence Watt-Evans
On Tue, 18 Apr 2017 17:51:55 -0700, Gutless Umbrella Carrying
Post by Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
Even so, with such an extreme failure rate, either they have
extraordinarily incompetent rocket scientists, or there's some
other factor(s) at work.
I remember well the live radio broadcast of the launch of
Vanguard in the late 50s. Our great hope to catch up with
Sputnik.
"We have ignition. Thrust. Release. ........ It just fell
over".
Greatly overblown. We broadcast a lot of test launches of rockets
that were still under development. Plus, Eisenhower had political
reasons to . . . not be too aggressive in getting a US satellite
into orbit before the Russkies did, and it showed (in retrospect).
Post by Lawrence Watt-Evans
There is a news reel if you prefer delightful explosions.
N Korea is where we were in the 50s and having the same problems
building something with no experience. Hint, we got them
working.
We had competent rocket scientists, and enough security to prevent
sabotage on the part of our enemies.
Post by Lawrence Watt-Evans
Then again, there is the more recent Challenger.
Which is what happens when politicans listen to bureucrats instead
of scientists and engineers.
--
Terry Austin

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.
Sherlock
2017-07-02 16:18:29 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On Sun, 02 Jul 2017 00:54:13 -0700, Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
Post by Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
Post by Lawrence Watt-Evans
On Tue, 18 Apr 2017 17:51:55 -0700, Gutless Umbrella Carrying
Post by Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
Even so, with such an extreme failure rate, either they have
extraordinarily incompetent rocket scientists, or there's some
other factor(s) at work.
I remember well the live radio broadcast of the launch of
Vanguard in the late 50s. Our great hope to catch up with
Sputnik.
"We have ignition. Thrust. Release. ........ It just fell
over".
Greatly overblown. We broadcast a lot of test launches of rockets
that were still under development. Plus, Eisenhower had political
reasons to . . . not be too aggressive in getting a US satellite
into orbit before the Russkies did, and it showed (in retrospect).
"Test launches" being the key words. That's exactly what NK is having.
Post by Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
Post by Lawrence Watt-Evans
There is a news reel if you prefer delightful explosions.
N Korea is where we were in the 50s and having the same problems
building something with no experience. Hint, we got them
working.
We had competent rocket scientists, and enough security to prevent
sabotage on the part of our enemies.
They were competent to the extent of what they had self-learned in
perhaps a decade. Perhaps two if you want to stretch it to the most
primitive experiments. That's just where NK is now given there must be
a decade of basic knowledge freely available in texts.
Post by Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
Post by Lawrence Watt-Evans
Then again, there is the more recent Challenger.
Which is what happens when politicans listen to bureucrats instead
of scientists and engineers.
Do you suppose that might happen in NK?
Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
2017-07-02 19:17:30 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Sherlock
On Sun, 02 Jul 2017 00:54:13 -0700, Gutless Umbrella Carrying
Post by Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
Post by Lawrence Watt-Evans
On Tue, 18 Apr 2017 17:51:55 -0700, Gutless Umbrella Carrying
Post by Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
Even so, with such an extreme failure rate, either they have
extraordinarily incompetent rocket scientists, or there's some
other factor(s) at work.
I remember well the live radio broadcast of the launch of
Vanguard in the late 50s. Our great hope to catch up with
Sputnik.
"We have ignition. Thrust. Release. ........ It just fell
over".
Greatly overblown. We broadcast a lot of test launches of
rockets that were still under development. Plus, Eisenhower had
political reasons to . . . not be too aggressive in getting a US
satellite into orbit before the Russkies did, and it showed (in
retrospect).
"Test launches" being the key words. That's exactly what NK is
having.
We are also doing something nobody else had done before, except the
Soviets, who weren't sharing their secrets. Our rocket science has
been readily available all along.
Post by Sherlock
Post by Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
Post by Lawrence Watt-Evans
There is a news reel if you prefer delightful explosions.
N Korea is where we were in the 50s and having the same
problems building something with no experience. Hint, we got
them working.
We had competent rocket scientists, and enough security to
prevent sabotage on the part of our enemies.
They were competent to the extent of what they had self-learned
in perhaps a decade. Perhaps two if you want to stretch it to
the most primitive experiments.
More like four or five, really.
Post by Sherlock
That's just where NK is now
given there must be a decade of basic knowledge freely available
in texts.
And yet, they still aren't getting very far.
Post by Sherlock
Post by Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
Post by Lawrence Watt-Evans
Then again, there is the more recent Challenger.
Which is what happens when politicans listen to bureucrats
instead of scientists and engineers.
Do you suppose that might happen in NK?
So you agree with me.
--
Terry Austin

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.
Robert Bannister
2017-07-03 02:25:36 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
Post by Sherlock
On Sun, 02 Jul 2017 00:54:13 -0700, Gutless Umbrella Carrying
Post by Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
Post by Lawrence Watt-Evans
On Tue, 18 Apr 2017 17:51:55 -0700, Gutless Umbrella Carrying
Post by Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
Even so, with such an extreme failure rate, either they have
extraordinarily incompetent rocket scientists, or there's some
other factor(s) at work.
I remember well the live radio broadcast of the launch of
Vanguard in the late 50s. Our great hope to catch up with
Sputnik.
"We have ignition. Thrust. Release. ........ It just fell
over".
Greatly overblown. We broadcast a lot of test launches of
rockets that were still under development. Plus, Eisenhower had
political reasons to . . . not be too aggressive in getting a US
satellite into orbit before the Russkies did, and it showed (in
retrospect).
"Test launches" being the key words. That's exactly what NK is having.
We are also doing something nobody else had done before, except the
Soviets, who weren't sharing their secrets. Our rocket science has
been readily available all along.
Of course, both sides were using German rocket scientists.
--
Robert B. born England a long time ago;
Western Australia since 1972
J. Clarke
2017-07-03 03:42:28 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Robert Bannister
Post by Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
Post by Sherlock
On Sun, 02 Jul 2017 00:54:13 -0700, Gutless Umbrella Carrying
Post by Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
Post by Lawrence Watt-Evans
On Tue, 18 Apr 2017 17:51:55 -0700, Gutless Umbrella Carrying
Post by Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
Even so, with such an extreme failure rate, either they have
extraordinarily incompetent rocket scientists, or there's some
other factor(s) at work.
I remember well the live radio broadcast of the launch of
Vanguard in the late 50s. Our great hope to catch up with
Sputnik.
"We have ignition. Thrust. Release. ........ It just fell over".
Greatly overblown. We broadcast a lot of test launches of
rockets that were still under development. Plus, Eisenhower had
political reasons to . . . not be too aggressive in getting a US
satellite into orbit before the Russkies did, and it showed (in
retrospect).
"Test launches" being the key words. That's exactly what NK is having.
We are also doing something nobody else had done before, except the
Soviets, who weren't sharing their secrets. Our rocket science has
been readily available all along.
Of course, both sides were using German rocket scientists.
A common myth. So who was the German who designed the N-1?
h***@gmail.com
2017-07-03 05:05:04 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by J. Clarke
Post by Robert Bannister
Post by Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
Post by Sherlock
On Sun, 02 Jul 2017 00:54:13 -0700, Gutless Umbrella Carrying
Post by Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
Post by Lawrence Watt-Evans
On Tue, 18 Apr 2017 17:51:55 -0700, Gutless Umbrella Carrying
Post by Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
Even so, with such an extreme failure rate, either they have
extraordinarily incompetent rocket scientists, or there's some
other factor(s) at work.
I remember well the live radio broadcast of the launch of
Vanguard in the late 50s. Our great hope to catch up with
Sputnik.
"We have ignition. Thrust. Release. ........ It just fell over".
Greatly overblown. We broadcast a lot of test launches of
rockets that were still under development. Plus, Eisenhower had
political reasons to . . . not be too aggressive in getting a US
satellite into orbit before the Russkies did, and it showed (in
retrospect).
"Test launches" being the key words. That's exactly what NK is having.
We are also doing something nobody else had done before, except the
Soviets, who weren't sharing their secrets. Our rocket science has
been readily available all along.
Of course, both sides were using German rocket scientists.
A common myth. So who was the German who designed the N-1?
Read https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Osoaviakhim
do you think the USSR forced 2000 German rocket technicians and engineers to move to the USSR in order to not use them?
Robert Bannister
2017-07-04 00:38:46 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by J. Clarke
Post by Robert Bannister
Post by Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
Post by Sherlock
On Sun, 02 Jul 2017 00:54:13 -0700, Gutless Umbrella Carrying
Post by Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
Post by Lawrence Watt-Evans
On Tue, 18 Apr 2017 17:51:55 -0700, Gutless Umbrella Carrying
Post by Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
Even so, with such an extreme failure rate, either they have
extraordinarily incompetent rocket scientists, or there's some
other factor(s) at work.
I remember well the live radio broadcast of the launch of
Vanguard in the late 50s. Our great hope to catch up with
Sputnik.
"We have ignition. Thrust. Release. ........ It just fell over".
Greatly overblown. We broadcast a lot of test launches of
rockets that were still under development. Plus, Eisenhower had
political reasons to . . . not be too aggressive in getting a US
satellite into orbit before the Russkies did, and it showed (in
retrospect).
"Test launches" being the key words. That's exactly what NK is having.
We are also doing something nobody else had done before, except the
Soviets, who weren't sharing their secrets. Our rocket science has
been readily available all along.
Of course, both sides were using German rocket scientists.
A common myth. So who was the German who designed the N-1?
Not a myth, but screwed up by Stalin's ever-changing moods. Some of the
thousands of Germans (this includes their families) who were deported to
the USSR at the end of WW2 were involved in the NII-88 project, but

"From around mid-1948, Germans at OKB-456 were also denied active
involvement in the development of a next generation engines. They were
still receiving various assignments, however were no longer able to see
a "big picture." According to German authors, Germans participated in
the development of the KS-50 and ED-140 experimental engines, which
could pave the way to the RD-110 engine -- a significantly scaled up
version of the propulsion system from the German A-4 rocket. However all
related information in the German source clearly came from a single
Russian publication, which in turn gives no credit to German engineers
for the respective work. The time frame within KS-50 engine was
developed and tested (1949) does not match the period, in which German
specialists were actively involved into development work at OKB-456,
according to the Russian sources. Therefore, the level of German
contribution in the project is still open to interpretation."

http://www.russianspaceweb.com/a4_team_moscow.html
--
Robert B. born England a long time ago;
Western Australia since 1972
J. Clarke
2017-07-04 00:50:57 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Robert Bannister
Post by J. Clarke
Post by Robert Bannister
Post by Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
Post by Sherlock
On Sun, 02 Jul 2017 00:54:13 -0700, Gutless Umbrella Carrying
Post by Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
Post by Lawrence Watt-Evans
On Tue, 18 Apr 2017 17:51:55 -0700, Gutless Umbrella Carrying
Post by Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
Even so, with such an extreme failure rate, either they have
extraordinarily incompetent rocket scientists, or there's some
other factor(s) at work.
I remember well the live radio broadcast of the launch of
Vanguard in the late 50s. Our great hope to catch up with
Sputnik.
"We have ignition. Thrust. Release. ........ It just fell over".
Greatly overblown. We broadcast a lot of test launches of
rockets that were still under development. Plus, Eisenhower had
political reasons to . . . not be too aggressive in getting a US
satellite into orbit before the Russkies did, and it showed (in
retrospect).
"Test launches" being the key words. That's exactly what NK is having.
We are also doing something nobody else had done before, except the
Soviets, who weren't sharing their secrets. Our rocket science has
been readily available all along.
Of course, both sides were using German rocket scientists.
A common myth. So who was the German who designed the N-1?
Not a myth, but screwed up by Stalin's ever-changing moods.
They got into orbit first, _without_ von Braun, and with a vastly more
capable booster. That suggests that they were a good deal less "screwed
up" than you seem to believe.
Post by Robert Bannister
Some of the
thousands of Germans (this includes their families) who were deported to
the USSR at the end of WW2 were involved in the NII-88 project, but
Yes, they were "involved". They weren't the rocket designers, they were
the manufacturing team. If you wanted to know how to make the tools to
make rocket engines they were your guys. If you wanted to design the
engines, that was von Braun.
Post by Robert Bannister
"From around mid-1948, Germans at OKB-456 were also denied active
involvement in the development of a next generation engines. They were
still receiving various assignments, however were no longer able to see
a "big picture." According to German authors, Germans participated in
the development of the KS-50 and ED-140 experimental engines, which
could pave the way to the RD-110 engine -- a significantly scaled up
version of the propulsion system from the German A-4 rocket.
"Participated in" is not the same as "were essential to the development
of".
Post by Robert Bannister
However all
related information in the German source clearly came from a single
Russian publication, which in turn gives no credit to German engineers
for the respective work. The time frame within KS-50 engine was
developed and tested (1949) does not match the period, in which German
specialists were actively involved into development work at OKB-456,
according to the Russian sources. Therefore, the level of German
contribution in the project is still open to interpretation."
http://www.russianspaceweb.com/a4_team_moscow.html
Bottom line, the Russians were in charge of the development and the Germans
were working on bits and pieces under Russian direction.
Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
2017-07-04 01:47:25 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by J. Clarke
Post by Robert Bannister
Post by J. Clarke
Post by Robert Bannister
Post by Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
Post by Sherlock
On Sun, 02 Jul 2017 00:54:13 -0700, Gutless Umbrella
Post by Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
Post by Lawrence Watt-Evans
On Tue, 18 Apr 2017 17:51:55 -0700, Gutless Umbrella
Post by Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
Even so, with such an extreme failure rate, either they
have extraordinarily incompetent rocket scientists, or
there's some other factor(s) at work.
I remember well the live radio broadcast of the launch
of Vanguard in the late 50s. Our great hope to catch up
with Sputnik.
"We have ignition. Thrust. Release. ........ It just
fell over".
Greatly overblown. We broadcast a lot of test launches of
rockets that were still under development. Plus,
Eisenhower had political reasons to . . . not be too
aggressive in getting a US satellite into orbit before
the Russkies did, and it showed (in retrospect).
"Test launches" being the key words. That's exactly what
NK is having.
We are also doing something nobody else had done before,
except the Soviets, who weren't sharing their secrets. Our
rocket science has been readily available all along.
Of course, both sides were using German rocket scientists.
A common myth. So who was the German who designed the N-1?
Not a myth, but screwed up by Stalin's ever-changing moods.
They got into orbit first, _without_ von Braun, and with a
vastly more capable booster.
According to insiders, including Eisenhower's son, that was a
deliberte political choice on Ike's part. The conern was that if a
US satellite overflew the USSR first, the Ruskies would make a
really, really big deal about it, at a time of very, very dangerous
political tensions. But if a Soviet satellite overflew the US
first, the Russkies have publicly declared that territorial claims
do not extend to orbit. This concern was significantly increased by
the fact that the rocket we *could* have put something in orbit
with first as a strictly military satellite. Eisenhower
deliberately *chose* to let the Reds get their first, for very
sound political reasons.
--
Terry Austin

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.
Kevrob
2017-07-04 15:14:07 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
Post by J. Clarke
Post by Robert Bannister
Post by J. Clarke
Post by Robert Bannister
Post by Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
Post by Sherlock
On Sun, 02 Jul 2017 00:54:13 -0700, Gutless Umbrella
Post by Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
Post by Lawrence Watt-Evans
On Tue, 18 Apr 2017 17:51:55 -0700, Gutless Umbrella
Post by Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
Even so, with such an extreme failure rate, either they
have extraordinarily incompetent rocket scientists, or
there's some other factor(s) at work.
I remember well the live radio broadcast of the launch
of Vanguard in the late 50s. Our great hope to catch up
with Sputnik.
"We have ignition. Thrust. Release. ........ It just fell over".
Greatly overblown. We broadcast a lot of test launches of
rockets that were still under development. Plus,
Eisenhower had political reasons to . . . not be too
aggressive in getting a US satellite into orbit before
the Russkies did, and it showed (in retrospect).
"Test launches" being the key words. That's exactly what NK is having.
We are also doing something nobody else had done before,
except the Soviets, who weren't sharing their secrets. Our
rocket science has been readily available all along.
Of course, both sides were using German rocket scientists.
A common myth. So who was the German who designed the N-1?
Not a myth, but screwed up by Stalin's ever-changing moods.
They got into orbit first, _without_ von Braun, and with a
vastly more capable booster.
According to insiders, including Eisenhower's son, that was a
deliberte political choice on Ike's part. The conern was that if a
US satellite overflew the USSR first, the Ruskies would make a
really, really big deal about it, at a time of very, very dangerous
political tensions. But if a Soviet satellite overflew the US
first, the Russkies have publicly declared that territorial claims
do not extend to orbit. This concern was significantly increased by
the fact that the rocket we *could* have put something in orbit
with first as a strictly military satellite. Eisenhower
deliberately *chose* to let the Reds get their first, for very
sound political reasons.
In addition "we have to catch up to the commies" was a better
political driver than "look at the neat science we can do with
your tax dollars!"

Kevin R
Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
2017-07-04 19:11:19 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On Monday, July 3, 2017 at 9:47:29 PM UTC-4, Gutless Umbrella
Post by Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
Post by J. Clarke
Post by Robert Bannister
Post by J. Clarke
Post by Robert Bannister
Post by Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
Post by Sherlock
On Sun, 02 Jul 2017 00:54:13 -0700, Gutless Umbrella
Post by Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
Post by Lawrence Watt-Evans
On Tue, 18 Apr 2017 17:51:55 -0700, Gutless Umbrella
Post by Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
Even so, with such an extreme failure rate, either
they have extraordinarily incompetent rocket
scientists, or there's some other factor(s) at work.
I remember well the live radio broadcast of the
launch of Vanguard in the late 50s. Our great hope to
catch up with Sputnik.
"We have ignition. Thrust. Release. ........ It just fell over".
Greatly overblown. We broadcast a lot of test launches
of rockets that were still under development. Plus,
Eisenhower had political reasons to . . . not be too
aggressive in getting a US satellite into orbit before
the Russkies did, and it showed (in retrospect).
"Test launches" being the key words. That's exactly
what NK is having.
We are also doing something nobody else had done before,
except the Soviets, who weren't sharing their secrets.
Our rocket science has been readily available all along.
Of course, both sides were using German rocket
scientists.
A common myth. So who was the German who designed the
N-1?
Not a myth, but screwed up by Stalin's ever-changing moods.
They got into orbit first, _without_ von Braun, and with a
vastly more capable booster.
According to insiders, including Eisenhower's son, that was a
deliberte political choice on Ike's part. The conern was that
if a US satellite overflew the USSR first, the Ruskies would
make a really, really big deal about it, at a time of very,
very dangerous political tensions. But if a Soviet satellite
overflew the US first, the Russkies have publicly declared that
territorial claims do not extend to orbit. This concern was
significantly increased by the fact that the rocket we *could*
have put something in orbit with first as a strictly military
satellite. Eisenhower deliberately *chose* to let the Reds get
their first, for very sound political reasons.
In addition "we have to catch up to the commies" was a better
political driver than "look at the neat science we can do with
your tax dollars!"
A powerful side benefit. Though, honestly, because of that
attitude, and the resulting focus of BDRs (Big, Dumb Rockets), like
Russkies used, it took us a lot longer to get a reusable space
shuttle (the X-20 would have been operational in 1965, if the Big
Engine for the X-15 hadn't been delayed by the focus on the Mercury
program).
--
Terry Austin

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.
Robert Carnegie
2017-07-05 07:19:18 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Kevrob
Post by Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
Post by J. Clarke
Post by Robert Bannister
Post by J. Clarke
Post by Robert Bannister
Post by Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
Post by Sherlock
On Sun, 02 Jul 2017 00:54:13 -0700, Gutless Umbrella
Post by Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
Post by Lawrence Watt-Evans
On Tue, 18 Apr 2017 17:51:55 -0700, Gutless Umbrella
Post by Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
Even so, with such an extreme failure rate, either they
have extraordinarily incompetent rocket scientists, or
there's some other factor(s) at work.
I remember well the live radio broadcast of the launch
of Vanguard in the late 50s. Our great hope to catch up
with Sputnik.
"We have ignition. Thrust. Release. ........ It just fell over".
Greatly overblown. We broadcast a lot of test launches of
rockets that were still under development. Plus,
Eisenhower had political reasons to . . . not be too
aggressive in getting a US satellite into orbit before
the Russkies did, and it showed (in retrospect).
"Test launches" being the key words. That's exactly what NK is having.
We are also doing something nobody else had done before,
except the Soviets, who weren't sharing their secrets. Our
rocket science has been readily available all along.
Of course, both sides were using German rocket scientists.
A common myth. So who was the German who designed the N-1?
Not a myth, but screwed up by Stalin's ever-changing moods.
They got into orbit first, _without_ von Braun, and with a
vastly more capable booster.
According to insiders, including Eisenhower's son, that was a
deliberte political choice on Ike's part. The conern was that if a
US satellite overflew the USSR first, the Ruskies would make a
really, really big deal about it, at a time of very, very dangerous
political tensions. But if a Soviet satellite overflew the US
first, the Russkies have publicly declared that territorial claims
do not extend to orbit. This concern was significantly increased by
the fact that the rocket we *could* have put something in orbit
with first as a strictly military satellite. Eisenhower
deliberately *chose* to let the Reds get their first, for very
sound political reasons.
In addition "we have to catch up to the commies" was a better
political driver than "look at the neat science we can do with
your tax dollars!"
Wasn't it less about "neat science" than about
"nuclear missiles dropped onto anywhere on Earth",
in the first place? The "beat science" part was
only included so that you had something else to
think about.
Kevrob
2017-07-06 19:52:00 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by Kevrob
Post by Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
Post by J. Clarke
Post by Robert Bannister
Post by J. Clarke
Post by Robert Bannister
Post by Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
Post by Sherlock
On Sun, 02 Jul 2017 00:54:13 -0700, Gutless Umbrella
Post by Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
Post by Lawrence Watt-Evans
On Tue, 18 Apr 2017 17:51:55 -0700, Gutless Umbrella
Post by Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
Even so, with such an extreme failure rate, either they
have extraordinarily incompetent rocket scientists, or
there's some other factor(s) at work.
I remember well the live radio broadcast of the launch
of Vanguard in the late 50s. Our great hope to catch up
with Sputnik.
"We have ignition. Thrust. Release. ........ It just
fell over".
Greatly overblown. We broadcast a lot of test launches of
rockets that were still under development. Plus,
Eisenhower had political reasons to . . . not be too
aggressive in getting a US satellite into orbit before
the Russkies did, and it showed (in retrospect).
"Test launches" being the key words. That's exactly what
NK is having.
We are also doing something nobody else had done before,
except the Soviets, who weren't sharing their secrets. Our
rocket science has been readily available all along.
Of course, both sides were using German rocket scientists.
A common myth. So who was the German who designed the N-1?
Not a myth, but screwed up by Stalin's ever-changing moods.
They got into orbit first, _without_ von Braun, and with a
vastly more capable booster.
According to insiders, including Eisenhower's son, that was a
deliberte political choice on Ike's part. The conern was that if a
US satellite overflew the USSR first, the Ruskies would make a
really, really big deal about it, at a time of very, very dangerous
political tensions. But if a Soviet satellite overflew the US
first, the Russkies have publicly declared that territorial claims
do not extend to orbit. This concern was significantly increased by
the fact that the rocket we *could* have put something in orbit
with first as a strictly military satellite. Eisenhower
deliberately *chose* to let the Reds get their first, for very
sound political reasons.
In addition "we have to catch up to the commies" was a better
political driver than "look at the neat science we can do with
your tax dollars!"
Wasn't it less about "neat science" than about
"nuclear missiles dropped onto anywhere on Earth",
in the first place? The "beat science" part was
only included so that you had something else to
think about.
Establishing NASA, which took over for its predecessor, NACA: National
Advisory Committee for Aeronautics, was an attempt to put forth a
"civilian research" face. NACA had started out as a military think
tank in WWI, and produced many innovations in WWII.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Advisory_Committee_for_Aeronautics

There were Department of Defense programs using space, run by various
parts of the Air Force and Navy, mostly satellite launches, and there
is the X-37 vehicle:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_X-37

...with the XS-1 in development

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XS-1_(spacecraft)

I remember distinctly delivering the New York Daily News, with
headlines about the old Soviet Union's plan to deploy FOBs:
orbital bombs. They were banned by the second SALT treaty.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fractional_Orbital_Bombardment_System

Other nukes in orbit were banned by the 1967 Outer Space Treaty.
FOBS were sub-orbital, so they were added to SALT II. It was never
ratified, but the CCCP kept to it, mostly.

Kevin R
Greg Goss
2017-07-10 04:27:44 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
According to insiders, including Eisenhower's son, that was a
deliberte political choice on Ike's part. The conern was that if a
US satellite overflew the USSR first, the Ruskies would make a
really, really big deal about it, at a time of very, very dangerous
political tensions. But if a Soviet satellite overflew the US
first, the Russkies have publicly declared that territorial claims
do not extend to orbit. This concern was significantly increased by
the fact that the rocket we *could* have put something in orbit
with first as a strictly military satellite. Eisenhower
deliberately *chose* to let the Reds get their first, for very
sound political reasons.
I haven't heard that explanation of WHY they didn't make orbit first.
I recall reading an anecdote of one high-altitude rocket test where
the team organizing the test decided to change the specs a bit and
"accidentally" make orbit.

According to the anecdote, someone from HQ showed up having heard of
their plan through some grapevine or other, and was rather panicky
about forcing them to stick to their published plan.

Your explanation here makes sense.
--
We are geeks. Resistance is voltage over current.
Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
2017-07-10 06:39:54 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Greg Goss
Post by Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
According to insiders, including Eisenhower's son, that was a
deliberte political choice on Ike's part. The conern was that if
a US satellite overflew the USSR first, the Ruskies would make a
really, really big deal about it, at a time of very, very
dangerous political tensions. But if a Soviet satellite overflew
the US first, the Russkies have publicly declared that
territorial claims do not extend to orbit. This concern was
significantly increased by the fact that the rocket we *could*
have put something in orbit with first as a strictly military
satellite. Eisenhower deliberately *chose* to let the Reds get
their first, for very sound political reasons.
I haven't heard that explanation of WHY they didn't make orbit
first.
I don't recall which PBS documentary show (maybe NOVA, or maybe
American Experience, or maybe not) it was, but every subject coverd
that I know anything about was dead on. I found it very credible.
Post by Greg Goss
I recall reading an anecdote of one high-altitude rocket
test where the team organizing the test decided to change the
specs a bit and "accidentally" make orbit.
According to the anecdote, someone from HQ showed up having
heard of their plan through some grapevine or other, and was
rather panicky about forcing them to stick to their published
plan.
There was a lot of maneuvering between the military people who
*could* put something in orbit, the civilian guys who were trying
really hard to, and the White House. I don't recall ever hearing
that particular bit, and I suspect it was, at least, exaggerated
because the people involved on either end, civilian or military,
were ambitious and agressive, but were not chosen for being had to
control mavericks. (Like in _The Right Stuff_, at the end, where
it's implied that Yeager took off in the F-104 in a cowboy moment.
No, it was another in a long series of scheduled, carefully planned
test flights. Otherwise, he'd never have been allowed to fly for
the Air Force again.) Certianly, there were things happening that I
could see ending up that story in the retelling.
Post by Greg Goss
Your explanation here makes sense.
The Space Race was a geniune technical contest betwen two groups of
very capable of people. But the technical contest was very, very
secondary to the political conflict. And Eisenhower was very good
at that (other than the really stupid blunder of allowing Francis
Gary Powers to make a pointless overflight of the USSR in 1960, but
nobody is perfect). In the USSR, the politicians got in the way
because they were inept. In the US, they got in the way on purpose,
and for good reason.
--
Terry Austin

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.
Quadibloc
2017-07-04 19:59:16 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by J. Clarke
If you wanted to design the
engines, that was von Braun.
Even the Americans had other German rocket scientists
besides von Braun. It's true that the Russian chief
designer we know of was the Russian Sergei Korolev - and,
for that matter, the Americans could have made more use of
Goddard than they did - but I don't see where the grounds
are to conclude the Russians only got help on the lower
levels from captured German rocket engineers.

John Savard
h***@gmail.com
2017-07-05 00:32:24 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Quadibloc
Post by J. Clarke
If you wanted to design the
engines, that was von Braun.
Even the Americans had other German rocket scientists
besides von Braun. It's true that the Russian chief
designer we know of was the Russian Sergei Korolev
The impression I've gotten from a brief investigation is that Korolev was a gifted political player and a good manager but it's open to question how much of the actual design he did.
h***@gmail.com
2017-07-04 02:38:15 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by J. Clarke
Post by Robert Bannister
Post by Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
Post by Sherlock
On Sun, 02 Jul 2017 00:54:13 -0700, Gutless Umbrella Carrying
Post by Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
Post by Lawrence Watt-Evans
On Tue, 18 Apr 2017 17:51:55 -0700, Gutless Umbrella Carrying
Post by Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
Even so, with such an extreme failure rate, either they have
extraordinarily incompetent rocket scientists, or there's some
other factor(s) at work.
I remember well the live radio broadcast of the launch of
Vanguard in the late 50s. Our great hope to catch up with
Sputnik.
"We have ignition. Thrust. Release. ........ It just fell over".
Greatly overblown. We broadcast a lot of test launches of
rockets that were still under development. Plus, Eisenhower had
political reasons to . . . not be too aggressive in getting a US
satellite into orbit before the Russkies did, and it showed (in
retrospect).
"Test launches" being the key words. That's exactly what NK is having.
We are also doing something nobody else had done before, except the
Soviets, who weren't sharing their secrets. Our rocket science has
been readily available all along.
Of course, both sides were using German rocket scientists.
A common myth. So who was the German who designed the N-1?
Not sure you're picking a great example when you go for a rocket which never completed a test flight...

It's worth pointing out that while the Germans didn't officially design USSR rockets
"They were not allowed to participate in final Soviet missile design, but were used as problem-solving consultants to the Soviet engineers"
note _final_design_ and problem solving...
So it's impossible to know exactly what input they did have.
Robert Bannister
2017-07-03 02:23:55 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Lawrence Watt-Evans
On Tue, 18 Apr 2017 17:51:55 -0700, Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
Post by Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
Even so, with such an extreme failure rate, either they have
extraordinarily incompetent rocket scientists, or there's some other
factor(s) at work.
I remember well the live radio broadcast of the launch of Vanguard in
the late 50s. Our great hope to catch up with Sputnik.
"We have ignition. Thrust. Release. ........ It just fell over".
There is a news reel if you prefer delightful explosions.
N Korea is where we were in the 50s and having the same problems
building something with no experience. Hint, we got them working.
Then again, there is the more recent Challenger.
I'm sure I heard an American on a news programme recently claiming that
Korean rockets failed because of the success of the USA's electronic
sabotage operations.
--
Robert B. born England a long time ago;
Western Australia since 1972
Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
2017-07-03 06:30:17 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Robert Bannister
Post by Lawrence Watt-Evans
On Tue, 18 Apr 2017 17:51:55 -0700, Gutless Umbrella Carrying
Post by Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
Even so, with such an extreme failure rate, either they have
extraordinarily incompetent rocket scientists, or there's some
other factor(s) at work.
I remember well the live radio broadcast of the launch of
Vanguard in the late 50s. Our great hope to catch up with
Sputnik.
"We have ignition. Thrust. Release. ........ It just fell
over".
There is a news reel if you prefer delightful explosions.
N Korea is where we were in the 50s and having the same
problems building something with no experience. Hint, we got
them working.
Then again, there is the more recent Challenger.
I'm sure I heard an American on a news programme recently
claiming that Korean rockets failed because of the success of
the USA's electronic sabotage operations.
Of course, even if that's not true, we want the North Koreans to
believe it is.
--
Terry Austin

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.
Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
2017-04-19 00:50:50 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Mike Van Pelt
Post by Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
There is, in fact, considerably speculation that North Korea's
missile program, based on Soviet designs that had a 13% failure
rate, fails 88% of the time because of various cyber-attacks.
Or, perhaps, whenever anything does not work completely perfectly,
everyone involved is summarily executed, which tends to make it
difficult to learn from one's mistakes. Also, the smart people
tend to want to Be Someplace Else.
One does wonder. I am increasinly of the opinion, however, the Kim is
not, and has never been, in control of North Korea. I doubt he is
aware of this, but I am more and more inclined to think his military
leadership has real control. And the executions we know about are the
result of losing an internal power stuggle within their ranks.

This does not, of course, conflict with your alternate theory.

It is entirely possible there's a family sized helping of both.
--
Terry Austin

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.
Quadibloc
2017-04-19 08:03:48 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
One does wonder. I am increasinly of the opinion, however, the Kim is
not, and has never been, in control of North Korea. I doubt he is
aware of this, but I am more and more inclined to think his military
leadership has real control. And the executions we know about are the
result of losing an internal power stuggle within their ranks.
When his uncle Jang Song-Thaek was executed, I felt that there was a real
possibility that instead of Kim Jong-Un being in control, and responsible for
that, the Organization and Guidance Department had commanded his execution in
order to remove someone who was helping Kim Jong-Un develop his own power
independent of their control.

However, I did not realize, at the time, that Jang Song-Thaek held the post of
the head of that department, so, indeed, if Kim Jong-Un is a puppet, maybe it
would have to be the military that is pulling the strings.

John Savard
Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
2017-04-19 16:26:27 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Quadibloc
Post by Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
One does wonder. I am increasinly of the opinion, however, the
Kim is not, and has never been, in control of North Korea. I
doubt he is aware of this, but I am more and more inclined to
think his military leadership has real control. And the
executions we know about are the result of losing an internal
power stuggle within their ranks.
When his uncle Jang Song-Thaek was executed, I felt that there
was a real possibility that instead of Kim Jong-Un being in
control, and responsible for that, the Organization and Guidance
Department had commanded his execution in order to remove
someone who was helping Kim Jong-Un develop his own power
independent of their control.
However, I did not realize, at the time, that Jang Song-Thaek
held the post of the head of that department, so, indeed, if Kim
Jong-Un is a puppet, maybe it would have to be the military that
is pulling the strings.
In that sort of situation, there aer normally several power groups
contending. And it's as incomprehensible to outsiders as it is deadly
to insiders. The only thing you can be certain of is the losers.
--
Terry Austin

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.
Peter Trei
2017-04-19 19:02:27 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
Post by Quadibloc
Post by Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
One does wonder. I am increasinly of the opinion, however, the
Kim is not, and has never been, in control of North Korea. I
doubt he is aware of this, but I am more and more inclined to
think his military leadership has real control. And the
executions we know about are the result of losing an internal
power stuggle within their ranks.
When his uncle Jang Song-Thaek was executed, I felt that there
was a real possibility that instead of Kim Jong-Un being in
control, and responsible for that, the Organization and Guidance
Department had commanded his execution in order to remove
someone who was helping Kim Jong-Un develop his own power
independent of their control.
However, I did not realize, at the time, that Jang Song-Thaek
held the post of the head of that department, so, indeed, if Kim
Jong-Un is a puppet, maybe it would have to be the military that
is pulling the strings.
In that sort of situation, there aer normally several power groups
contending. And it's as incomprehensible to outsiders as it is deadly
to insiders. The only thing you can be certain of is the losers.
I recall reading somewhere that NK has 3 independent internal security
services, and along with watching the population in general, each is also
tasked with infiltrating the other two.

The goal is to make it harder for an anti-Kim conspiracy to form.

pt
Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
2017-04-19 20:07:10 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On Wednesday, April 19, 2017 at 12:26:29 PM UTC-4, Gutless
Post by Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
On Tuesday, April 18, 2017 at 6:50:50 PM UTC-6, Gutless
Post by Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
One does wonder. I am increasinly of the opinion, however,
the Kim is not, and has never been, in control of North
Korea. I doubt he is aware of this, but I am more and more
inclined to think his military leadership has real control.
And the executions we know about are the result of losing an
internal power stuggle within their ranks.
When his uncle Jang Song-Thaek was executed, I felt that
there was a real possibility that instead of Kim Jong-Un
being in control, and responsible for that, the Organization
and Guidance Department had commanded his execution in order
to remove someone who was helping Kim Jong-Un develop his own
power independent of their control.
However, I did not realize, at the time, that Jang Song-Thaek
held the post of the head of that department, so, indeed, if
Kim Jong-Un is a puppet, maybe it would have to be the
military that is pulling the strings.
In that sort of situation, there aer normally several power
groups contending. And it's as incomprehensible to outsiders as
it is deadly to insiders. The only thing you can be certain of
is the losers.
I recall reading somewhere that NK has 3 independent internal
security services, and along with watching the population in
general, each is also tasked with infiltrating the other two.
The goal is to make it harder for an anti-Kim conspiracy to
form.
They probably don't want the competition.
--
Terry Austin

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.
Quadibloc
2017-04-23 00:01:15 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
Post by Quadibloc
Post by Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
One does wonder. I am increasinly of the opinion, however, the
Kim is not, and has never been, in control of North Korea. I
doubt he is aware of this, but I am more and more inclined to
think his military leadership has real control. And the
executions we know about are the result of losing an internal
power stuggle within their ranks.
When his uncle Jang Song-Thaek was executed, I felt that there
was a real possibility that instead of Kim Jong-Un being in
control, and responsible for that, the Organization and Guidance
Department had commanded his execution in order to remove
someone who was helping Kim Jong-Un develop his own power
independent of their control.
However, I did not realize, at the time, that Jang Song-Thaek
held the post of the head of that department, so, indeed, if Kim
Jong-Un is a puppet, maybe it would have to be the military that
is pulling the strings.
In that sort of situation, there aer normally several power groups
contending. And it's as incomprehensible to outsiders as it is deadly
to insiders. The only thing you can be certain of is the losers.
Since this discussion took place, I picked up a copy of the latest Epoch Times, and read this article:

http://www.theepochtimes.com/n3/2243719-north-korea-and-the-chinese-regimes-deep-state-2/

So, at least according to them, the mystery is solved.

During secret talks with Hu Jintao and Premier Wen Jiabao, in which North
Korea was represented by Jang Song-Thaek, the possibility of replacing Kim
Jong-Un with his brother Kim Jong Nam was suggested.

Numerous Party officials in China belong to the faction of the more hard-line
Jiang Zemin, who, aside from taking a hard line on dissent, also pursued
closer ties with North Korea, finding it useful as a distraction from their
own human rights issues and so on in dealings with the West - or as a
bargaining chip.

One of the Jiang Zemin loyalists, Zhou Yongkang, is alleged to have disclosed
this topic of discussion to Kim Jong-Un, and that sealed Jang Song-Thaek's
fate.

Apparently, this isn't a new revelation; an article two years ago seems to
have noted this:

http://www.theepochtimes.com/n3/1262311-mysterious-execution-of-leaders-uncle-in-north-korea-solved-says-overseas-chinese-media/

although I'm currently having difficulty loading it myself to read it due to temporary issues with my Internet connection.

John Savard
Quadibloc
2017-04-23 23:45:36 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Quadibloc
Apparently, this isn't a new revelation; an article two years ago seems to
http://www.theepochtimes.com/n3/1262311-mysterious-execution-of-leaders-uncle-in-north-korea-solved-says-overseas-chinese-media/
although I'm currently having difficulty loading it myself to read it due
to temporary issues with my Internet connection.
Those issues are now resolved; indeed, the same theory was in that article,
but with the additional information that the source was the overseas Chinese
news web site Boxun.

John Savard
Quadibloc
2017-04-23 23:48:46 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Quadibloc
the overseas Chinese
news web site Boxun.
Apparently they've moved their site to www.boxunblog.com because boxun.com,
their usual site, is under attack and may also have been compromised.

However, it's a Chinese-language web site.

John Savard
a425couple
2017-04-19 21:55:28 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
Post by David Johnston
Post by a425couple
Heinlein's book "The Meanace From Earth" is a collection of
short stories. They include "Project Nightmare".
So the last couple of years we have faced increasing concern
about North Korea's development of Atomic Bombs and their
threats to use them. Tricky situation with no easy solution
visible. Then the most recent early missile failure -----,
reminded me of "Project Nightmare".
"Russian Embasy today handed State ultimatum --
Demands USA convert to 'peoples republic'----
Note claims major US cities (list separate) are
mined with Atomic Bombs which they threaten
to set off by radio if terms are not met by ---"
Good citizens with telekinetic ability, get us through that
threat, and then move on to really adjust the threat.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Nightmare
Are hackers doing what Heinlein had telekinetics do? Certainly
computers do a considerable portion of arming and fusing a
warhead. Could a hacker set off a different country's
weapon????
No. That's impossible. Missiles are not connected to the web.
If you believe that all computer attacks must go through the web,
and only the web, you're as stupid as you look.
There is, in fact, considerably speculation that North Korea's
missile program, based on Soviet designs that had a 13% failure
rate, fails 88% of the time because of various cyber-attacks.
Iran's nuclear program was sabotages with printer firmware that
destroyed centrifuges. Russia compromised NATO with infeced USB
drives. And so on.
Yes. It appears to be a variety of ways for mischief to be done.
Elsewhere, someone not wishing to post here,
Post by Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
Post by David Johnston
Post by a425couple
Post by Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
If you believe that all computer attacks must go through the web,
and only the web, you're as stupid as you look.
That's not what he said.
Minuteman canNOT be triggered by hackers.
Dunno 'bout our nuke subs, but speculate similar security.
Air delivered nuke bombs are (mostly) dumb bombs
Care to explain what triggers the explosion of the
"Air delivered nuke bombs" ?
Well.......it ain't an iPhone.
It's either a barometric sensor (for above ground>
Nary a microwave in the bunch.
So, you are believing a modern 'barometric sensor'
to fire the fuze, is entirely mechanically * operated?
Post by Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
or internal timer (for below ground).
So, you are thinking an old fashoned mechanical alarm clock?
Nothing like a currently produced electronic one?
And, absolutely no overrides for the scientists on the surface?

Wow! Just think of the excitement. The North Koreans just start
to lower it down the 1,300 foot shaft, and the cable snags and
it can not be moved, either up or down!!!
One hour until BOOM, and it's just 50' below the surface.
"May you live in interesting times!"

* meanwhile, does my use of the word "mechanical", really
eliminate anything electronic/electrical?


Definition of mechanical
1
a (1) : of or relating to machinery (see machinery 1) or tools
mechanical applications of science a mechanical genius mechanical aptitude
(2) : produced or operated by a machine or tool mechanical power a
mechanical refrigerator a mechanical saw
b : of or relating to manual operations
2
: of or relating to artisans (see artisan 1) or machinists the
mechanical trades
3
a : done as if by machine : seemingly uninfluenced by the mind or
emotions : automatic
busy in a leisurely mechanical way - Douglas Stewart
b : of or relating to technicalities or petty matters
nor was any capacity shown for anything above a mechanical handling of
the matter - H. O. Taylor
4
a : relating to, governed by, or in accordance with the principles of
mechanics mechanical energy
b : relating to the quantitative relations of force and matter mechanical
pressure of wind on a tower
5
: caused by, resulting from, or relating to a process that involves a
purely physical as opposed to a chemical or biological change or process -
mechanical erosion of rock

Well, #5 does specify no "chemical' or 'biological', but it does not
specificly say no electrical pulses.
Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
2017-04-19 22:11:05 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
The is pretty much incoherent. The only thing I can deduce from it
is that you're as stupid as you look.

And you look *very* stupid.

HTH. HAND.
Post by a425couple
in...
Post by Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
Post by David Johnston
Post by a425couple
Heinlein's book "The Meanace From Earth" is a collection of
short stories. They include "Project Nightmare".
So the last couple of years we have faced increasing concern
about North Korea's development of Atomic Bombs and their
threats to use them. Tricky situation with no easy solution
visible. Then the most recent early missile failure -----,
reminded me of "Project Nightmare".
"Russian Embasy today handed State ultimatum --
Demands USA convert to 'peoples republic'----
Note claims major US cities (list separate) are
mined with Atomic Bombs which they threaten
to set off by radio if terms are not met by ---"
Good citizens with telekinetic ability, get us through that
threat, and then move on to really adjust the threat.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Nightmare
Are hackers doing what Heinlein had telekinetics do?
Certainly computers do a considerable portion of arming and
fusing a warhead. Could a hacker set off a different
country's weapon????
No. That's impossible. Missiles are not connected to the
web.
If you believe that all computer attacks must go through the
web, and only the web, you're as stupid as you look.
There is, in fact, considerably speculation that North Korea's
missile program, based on Soviet designs that had a 13% failure
rate, fails 88% of the time because of various cyber-attacks.
Iran's nuclear program was sabotages with printer firmware that
destroyed centrifuges. Russia compromised NATO with infeced USB
drives. And so on.
Yes. It appears to be a variety of ways for mischief to be
done. Elsewhere, someone not wishing to post here,
Post by Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
Post by David Johnston
Post by a425couple
Post by Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
If you believe that all computer attacks must go through
the web, and only the web, you're as stupid as you look.
That's not what he said.
Minuteman canNOT be triggered by hackers.
Dunno 'bout our nuke subs, but speculate similar security.
Air delivered nuke bombs are (mostly) dumb bombs
Care to explain what triggers the explosion of the
"Air delivered nuke bombs" ?
Well.......it ain't an iPhone.
It's either a barometric sensor (for above ground>
Nary a microwave in the bunch.
So, you are believing a modern 'barometric sensor'
to fire the fuze, is entirely mechanically * operated?
Post by Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
or internal timer (for below ground).
So, you are thinking an old fashoned mechanical alarm clock?
Nothing like a currently produced electronic one?
And, absolutely no overrides for the scientists on the surface?
Wow! Just think of the excitement. The North Koreans just
start to lower it down the 1,300 foot shaft, and the cable snags
and it can not be moved, either up or down!!!
One hour until BOOM, and it's just 50' below the surface.
"May you live in interesting times!"
* meanwhile, does my use of the word "mechanical", really
eliminate anything electronic/electrical?
Definition of mechanical
1
a (1) : of or relating to machinery (see machinery 1) or
tools
mechanical applications of science a mechanical genius
mechanical aptitude (2) : produced or operated by a machine or
tool mechanical power a mechanical refrigerator a mechanical saw
b : of or relating to manual operations
2
: of or relating to artisans (see artisan 1) or machinists
: the
mechanical trades
3
a : done as if by machine : seemingly uninfluenced by the mind or
emotions : automatic
busy in a leisurely mechanical way - Douglas Stewart
b : of or relating to technicalities or petty matters
nor was any capacity shown for anything above a mechanical
handling of
the matter - H. O. Taylor
4
a : relating to, governed by, or in accordance with the
principles of
mechanics mechanical energy
b : relating to the quantitative relations of force and matter
mechanical pressure of wind on a tower
5
: caused by, resulting from, or relating to a process that
: involves a
purely physical as opposed to a chemical or biological change or
process - mechanical erosion of rock
Well, #5 does specify no "chemical' or 'biological', but it does
not specificly say no electrical pulses.
--
Terry Austin

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.
David Mitchell
2017-04-18 05:03:40 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by David Johnston
Heinlein's book "The Meanace From Earth" is a collection of short
stories. They include "Project Nightmare".
So the last couple of years we have faced increasing concern about North
Korea's development of Atomic Bombs and their threats to use them.
Tricky situation with no easy solution visible. Then the most recent
early missile failure -----, reminded me of "Project Nightmare".
"Russian Embasy today handed State ultimatum --
Demands USA convert to 'peoples republic'----
Note claims major US cities (list separate) are
mined with Atomic Bombs which they threaten
to set off by radio if terms are not met by ---"
Good citizens with telekinetic ability, get us through that threat, and
then move on to really adjust the threat.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Nightmare
Are hackers doing what Heinlein had telekinetics do? Certainly computers
do a considerable portion of arming and fusing a warhead. Could a hacker
set off a different country's weapon????
No. That's impossible. Missiles are not connected to the web.
Yet. I apologise in advance for not being able to provide details*; but
I read fairly recently that some branch of the US armed forces was
mooting that very thing.

We can all only hope that such mind-melting stupidity will be filtered
out by some kind of review.

*: Any kind of search for "missile" at the moment is just overwhelmed by
recent events.
Quadibloc
2017-04-18 05:29:01 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by David Mitchell
*: Any kind of search for "missile" at the moment is just overwhelmed by
recent events.
Try "missile -Korea" perhaps?

John Savard
Quadibloc
2017-04-18 05:36:34 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Quadibloc
Post by David Mitchell
*: Any kind of search for "missile" at the moment is just overwhelmed by
recent events.
Try "missile -Korea" perhaps?
This gets me some relevant results, but not what you were thinking of:

https://books.google.ca/books?id=VdQESWP5vr0C&pg=PT178&lpg=PT178&dq=missile+Internet+-Korea&source=bl&ots=RAWd5-PIqz&sig=JZHNNvoGW0GxiYKTwUAAtAMolsI&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjgh_-Eo63TAhUQ1WMKHTEnCWsQ6AEITjAI#v=onepage&q=missile%20Internet%20-Korea&f=false

that gets you to the right page; the whole book is available here:

http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a406127.pdf

this concerns a system being developed by Thomson Ramo-Woolridge (TRW), the
Theater Missile Defense (TMD) Battle Management Command, Control and
Communications (BMC3) system. Which maybe _could_ be what you were thinking
of...

Another result, but it's just a discussion of the issue, was

https://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/index.php?topic=30912.0

John Savard
Quadibloc
2017-04-18 05:39:28 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Here's another result that seems relevant:

https://www.defensetech.org/2016/02/19/navy-wants-to-unplug-from-some-networks-to-stay-ahead-of-cyberattacks/

John Savard
David Mitchell
2017-04-18 13:06:56 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Quadibloc
Post by Quadibloc
Post by David Mitchell
*: Any kind of search for "missile" at the moment is just overwhelmed by
recent events.
Try "missile -Korea" perhaps?
https://books.google.ca/books?id=VdQESWP5vr0C&pg=PT178&lpg=PT178&dq=missile+Internet+-Korea&source=bl&ots=RAWd5-PIqz&sig=JZHNNvoGW0GxiYKTwUAAtAMolsI&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjgh_-Eo63TAhUQ1WMKHTEnCWsQ6AEITjAI#v=onepage&q=missile%20Internet%20-Korea&f=false
http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a406127.pdf
this concerns a system being developed by Thomson Ramo-Woolridge (TRW), the
Theater Missile Defense (TMD) Battle Management Command, Control and
Communications (BMC3) system. Which maybe _could_ be what you were thinking
of...
Another result, but it's just a discussion of the issue, was
https://www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/index.php?topic=30912.0
John Savard
Thank you; but I remembered that I'd seen it on comp.risks:

"The fact that future nuclear weapons will be far more networked (though
not necessarily to the open Internet) will create better safety and
oversight, and allow for more coordinated operations. But more
connectivity also introduces new potential vulnerabilities and dangers."

https://www.theatlantic.com/amp/article/511904/

The idea that connectivity to the Internet wasn't rejected out of hand
seems to indicate that the Air Force Scientific Advisory Board needs
replacing very firmly.

A blogger at the US Naval Institute certainly thinks so:

<https://blog.usni.org/2017/01/04/there-are-bad-ideas-and-then-there-is-this-bad-idea>

"Some support systems? Sure, but command, control, mission loading,
arming, and launch must be contained in a robust, hardened, isolated &
closed system. Simple, almost primitive, with multiple physical human
interfaces required. To be even thinking of network access to the
weapons systems themselves is the height of irresponsibility; even more
irresponsible than a reliance on GPS or satellite systems as a point of
failure between authorization, launch, and "servicing the target."
a425couple
2017-04-18 15:26:39 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by David Johnston
Heinlein's book "The Meanace From Earth" is a collection of short
stories. They include "Project Nightmare".
So the last couple of years we have faced increasing concern about North
Korea's development of Atomic Bombs and their threats to use them.----
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Nightmare
Are hackers doing what Heinlein had telekinetics do? Certainly computers
do a considerable portion of arming and fusing a warhead. Could a hacker
set off a different country's weapon????
No. That's impossible. Missiles are not connected to the web.
Decades ago, I had a Apple II computer. I wrote a program
for it to easily compute out, my car's gas milage (into miles per gallon).
That was a quite simple and short program, that could at a glance
be checked out and verified it had no "bugs" in it.

Everything I've seen lately has many, many lines of code it it.
Very few 'programs' are entirely unique and never been
touched by any 'outside' computer.
So, just as those centrifuges were caused to fail,
(even though, aparently, not connected to the web)
other items could also be caused to fail, in a variety of ways
and times.

Please see David Mitchell's 4/18 post.
news{@bestley.co.uk (Mark Bestley)
2017-04-18 17:05:44 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by a425couple
Post by David Johnston
Heinlein's book "The Meanace From Earth" is a collection of short
stories. They include "Project Nightmare".
So the last couple of years we have faced increasing concern about North
Korea's development of Atomic Bombs and their threats to use them.----
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Nightmare
Are hackers doing what Heinlein had telekinetics do? Certainly computers
do a considerable portion of arming and fusing a warhead. Could a hacker
set off a different country's weapon????
No. That's impossible. Missiles are not connected to the web.
Decades ago, I had a Apple II computer. I wrote a program
for it to easily compute out, my car's gas milage (into miles per gallon).
That was a quite simple and short program, that could at a glance
be checked out and verified it had no "bugs" in it.
But if that program ran on a Pentium (only 10 years later) could would
have had a bug even though your code was correct.

How do you know that the Apple CPU or hardware or BASIC interpreter had
no bugs?

So even then not everythiong was verifiable
Post by a425couple
Everything I've seen lately has many, many lines of code it it.
Very few 'programs' are entirely unique and never been
touched by any 'outside' computer.
So, just as those centrifuges were caused to fail,
(even though, aparently, not connected to the web)
other items could also be caused to fail, in a variety of ways
and times.
Please see David Mitchell's 4/18 post.
--
Mark
Lynn McGuire
2017-07-04 02:04:09 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by David Johnston
Heinlein's book "The Meanace From Earth" is a collection of short
stories. They include "Project Nightmare".
So the last couple of years we have faced increasing concern about North
Korea's development of Atomic Bombs and their threats to use them.----
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Nightmare
Are hackers doing what Heinlein had telekinetics do? Certainly computers
do a considerable portion of arming and fusing a warhead. Could a hacker
set off a different country's weapon????
No. That's impossible. Missiles are not connected to the web.
Decades ago, I had a Apple II computer. I wrote a program for it to
easily compute out, my car's gas milage (into miles per gallon). That
was a quite simple and short program, that could at a glance be checked
out and verified it had no "bugs" in it.
Everything I've seen lately has many, many lines of code it it. Very few
'programs' are entirely unique and never been touched by any 'outside'
computer. So, just as those centrifuges were caused to fail, (even
though, aparently, not connected to the web) other items could also be
caused to fail, in a variety of ways and times.
Please see David Mitchell's 4/18 post.
My staff and I wrangle software that is about 1.2 million lines of F77,
C, and C++ code. More often that not, the biggest bugs are when people
use our software in an unforeseen manner.

Lynn
Jay E. Morris
2017-07-04 15:41:24 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by David Johnston
Heinlein's book "The Meanace From Earth" is a collection of short
stories. They include "Project Nightmare".
So the last couple of years we have faced increasing concern about North
Korea's development of Atomic Bombs and their threats to use them.----
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Nightmare
Are hackers doing what Heinlein had telekinetics do? Certainly computers
do a considerable portion of arming and fusing a warhead. Could a hacker
set off a different country's weapon????
No. That's impossible. Missiles are not connected to the web.
Decades ago, I had a Apple II computer. I wrote a program for it to
easily compute out, my car's gas milage (into miles per gallon). That
was a quite simple and short program, that could at a glance be
checked out and verified it had no "bugs" in it.
Everything I've seen lately has many, many lines of code it it. Very
few 'programs' are entirely unique and never been touched by any
'outside' computer. So, just as those centrifuges were caused to fail,
(even though, aparently, not connected to the web) other items could
also be caused to fail, in a variety of ways and times.
Please see David Mitchell's 4/18 post.
My staff and I wrangle software that is about 1.2 million lines of F77,
C, and C++ code. More often that not, the biggest bugs are when people
use our software in an unforeseen manner.
Lynn
The purpose of an application programmer is to design idiot proof
programs, the purpose of the universe is to design bigger and better idiots.
Lynn McGuire
2017-07-07 18:48:17 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Jay E. Morris
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by David Johnston
Heinlein's book "The Meanace From Earth" is a collection of short
stories. They include "Project Nightmare".
So the last couple of years we have faced increasing concern about North
Korea's development of Atomic Bombs and their threats to use them.----
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Nightmare
Are hackers doing what Heinlein had telekinetics do? Certainly computers
do a considerable portion of arming and fusing a warhead. Could a hacker
set off a different country's weapon????
No. That's impossible. Missiles are not connected to the web.
Decades ago, I had a Apple II computer. I wrote a program for it to
easily compute out, my car's gas milage (into miles per gallon). That
was a quite simple and short program, that could at a glance be
checked out and verified it had no "bugs" in it.
Everything I've seen lately has many, many lines of code it it. Very
few 'programs' are entirely unique and never been touched by any
'outside' computer. So, just as those centrifuges were caused to
fail, (even though, aparently, not connected to the web) other items
could also be caused to fail, in a variety of ways and times.
Please see David Mitchell's 4/18 post.
My staff and I wrangle software that is about 1.2 million lines of
F77, C, and C++ code. More often that not, the biggest bugs are when
people use our software in an unforeseen manner.
Lynn
The purpose of an application programmer is to design idiot proof
programs, the purpose of the universe is to design bigger and better idiots.
++;

Lynn
Robert Bannister
2017-07-05 02:06:00 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by David Johnston
Heinlein's book "The Meanace From Earth" is a collection of short
stories. They include "Project Nightmare".
So the last couple of years we have faced increasing concern about North
Korea's development of Atomic Bombs and their threats to use them.----
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Nightmare
Are hackers doing what Heinlein had telekinetics do? Certainly computers
do a considerable portion of arming and fusing a warhead. Could a hacker
set off a different country's weapon????
No. That's impossible. Missiles are not connected to the web.
Decades ago, I had a Apple II computer. I wrote a program for it to
easily compute out, my car's gas milage (into miles per gallon). That
was a quite simple and short program, that could at a glance be
checked out and verified it had no "bugs" in it.
Everything I've seen lately has many, many lines of code it it. Very
few 'programs' are entirely unique and never been touched by any
'outside' computer. So, just as those centrifuges were caused to fail,
(even though, aparently, not connected to the web) other items could
also be caused to fail, in a variety of ways and times.
Please see David Mitchell's 4/18 post.
My staff and I wrangle software that is about 1.2 million lines of F77,
C, and C++ code. More often that not, the biggest bugs are when people
use our software in an unforeseen manner.
I forget who first said it, but there's a lot of truth in:
“Foolproof systems don't take into account the ingenuity of fools.”
--
Robert B. born England a long time ago;
Western Australia since 1972
Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
2017-07-07 18:55:13 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by David Johnston
Post by a425couple
Heinlein's book "The Meanace From Earth" is a collection of
short stories. They include "Project Nightmare".
So the last couple of years we have faced increasing concern
about North Korea's development of Atomic Bombs and their
threats to use them.----
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Nightmare Are hackers
doing what Heinlein had telekinetics do? Certainly computers
do a considerable portion of arming and fusing a warhead.
Could a hacker set off a different country's weapon????
No. That's impossible. Missiles are not connected to the
web.
Decades ago, I had a Apple II computer. I wrote a program for
it to easily compute out, my car's gas milage (into miles per
gallon). That was a quite simple and short program, that could
at a glance be checked out and verified it had no "bugs" in it.
Everything I've seen lately has many, many lines of code it it.
Very few 'programs' are entirely unique and never been touched
by any 'outside' computer. So, just as those centrifuges were
caused to fail, (even though, aparently, not connected to the
web) other items could also be caused to fail, in a variety of
ways and times. Please see David Mitchell's 4/18 post.
My staff and I wrangle software that is about 1.2 million lines
of F77, C, and C++ code. More often that not, the biggest bugs
are when people use our software in an unforeseen manner.
I recall reading somewhere that at one million lines of code, every
bug fixed, on average, introduces 1.2 new bugs. The ration goes up,
the more lines of code there are.
--
Terry Austin

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.
Kevrob
2017-07-07 21:35:27 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by David Johnston
Post by a425couple
Heinlein's book "The Meanace From Earth" is a collection of
short stories. They include "Project Nightmare".
So the last couple of years we have faced increasing concern
about North Korea's development of Atomic Bombs and their
threats to use them.----
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Nightmare Are hackers
doing what Heinlein had telekinetics do? Certainly computers
do a considerable portion of arming and fusing a warhead.
Could a hacker set off a different country's weapon????
No. That's impossible. Missiles are not connected to the
web.
Decades ago, I had a Apple II computer. I wrote a program for
it to easily compute out, my car's gas milage (into miles per
gallon). That was a quite simple and short program, that could
at a glance be checked out and verified it had no "bugs" in it.
Everything I've seen lately has many, many lines of code it it.
Very few 'programs' are entirely unique and never been touched
by any 'outside' computer. So, just as those centrifuges were
caused to fail, (even though, aparently, not connected to the
web) other items could also be caused to fail, in a variety of
ways and times. Please see David Mitchell's 4/18 post.
My staff and I wrangle software that is about 1.2 million lines
of F77, C, and C++ code. More often that not, the biggest bugs
are when people use our software in an unforeseen manner.
I recall reading somewhere that at one million lines of code, every
bug fixed, on average, introduces 1.2 new bugs. The ration goes up,
the more lines of code there are.
Case in point: ration v ratio

{Unless there is some distributor-gremlin making sure
each program gets its allotment of bugs?} :)

Kevin R
Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
2017-07-07 21:48:44 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On Friday, July 7, 2017 at 2:55:16 PM UTC-4, Gutless Umbrella
Post by Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by a425couple
Post by David Johnston
Post by a425couple
Heinlein's book "The Meanace From Earth" is a collection
of short stories. They include "Project Nightmare".
So the last couple of years we have faced increasing
concern about North Korea's development of Atomic Bombs
and their threats to use them.----
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Nightmare Are
hackers doing what Heinlein had telekinetics do? Certainly
computers do a considerable portion of arming and fusing a
warhead. Could a hacker set off a different country's
weapon????
No. That's impossible. Missiles are not connected to the web.
Decades ago, I had a Apple II computer. I wrote a program
for it to easily compute out, my car's gas milage (into
miles per gallon). That was a quite simple and short
program, that could at a glance be checked out and verified
it had no "bugs" in it. Everything I've seen lately has
many, many lines of code it it. Very few 'programs' are
entirely unique and never been touched by any 'outside'
computer. So, just as those centrifuges were caused to fail,
(even though, aparently, not connected to the web) other
items could also be caused to fail, in a variety of ways and
times. Please see David Mitchell's 4/18 post.
My staff and I wrangle software that is about 1.2 million
lines of F77, C, and C++ code. More often that not, the
biggest bugs are when people use our software in an
unforeseen manner.
I recall reading somewhere that at one million lines of code,
every bug fixed, on average, introduces 1.2 new bugs. The
ration goes up, the more lines of code there are.
Case in point: ration v ratio
My ration is much, much higher than 1.2. So is my ratio.
{Unless there is some distributor-gremlin making sure
each program gets its allotment of bugs?} :)
Yeah, that, too. (In point of fact, there are conspiracy theories
that claim exactly that. If there's no malware, anti-virus
companies would go out of business.)
--
Terry Austin

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.
Greg Goss
2017-07-10 05:07:32 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
I recall reading somewhere that at one million lines of code, every
bug fixed, on average, introduces 1.2 new bugs. The ration goes up,
the more lines of code there are.
In the middle eighties, I was a mainframe programmer. Because of the
flexibility of the job control language, many job steps were focussed
around a dummy program that just was a place to hang JCL onto.

The program was originally four bytes long. IEFBR14. IEF means "IBM
supplied program" and BR14 was the command for "return from
subroutine."

Of course, the program didn't zero out register 15, (return code from
subroutine) so jobs with an overarching setting of "do this if any job
step complains" would abort on the unpredictable reg 15 code.

ZAPping reg 15 pushed the program to seven bytes. Almost as much
bug-fix as original program.

I wonder how fat IEFBR15 got by the time we stopped doing mainframe
"jobs" as the core of computing?
--
We are geeks. Resistance is voltage over current.
Gene Wirchenko
2017-07-11 01:09:49 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Greg Goss
Post by Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
I recall reading somewhere that at one million lines of code, every
bug fixed, on average, introduces 1.2 new bugs. The ration goes up,
the more lines of code there are.
In the middle eighties, I was a mainframe programmer. Because of the
flexibility of the job control language, many job steps were focussed
around a dummy program that just was a place to hang JCL onto.
The program was originally four bytes long. IEFBR14. IEF means "IBM
supplied program" and BR14 was the command for "return from
subroutine."
Which is only two bytes.
Post by Greg Goss
Of course, the program didn't zero out register 15, (return code from
subroutine) so jobs with an overarching setting of "do this if any job
step complains" would abort on the unpredictable reg 15 code.
ZAPping reg 15 pushed the program to seven bytes. Almost as much
bug-fix as original program.
SR 0,0 / BR 14 is only four bytes.
Post by Greg Goss
I wonder how fat IEFBR15 got by the time we stopped doing mainframe
"jobs" as the core of computing?
Sincerely,

Gene Wirchenko

Scott Lurndal
2017-04-18 18:01:20 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by David Johnston
Heinlein's book "The Meanace From Earth" is a collection of short
stories. They include "Project Nightmare".
So the last couple of years we have faced increasing concern about North
Korea's development of Atomic Bombs and their threats to use them.
Tricky situation with no easy solution visible. Then the most recent
early missile failure -----, reminded me of "Project Nightmare".
"Russian Embasy today handed State ultimatum --
Demands USA convert to 'peoples republic'----
Note claims major US cities (list separate) are
mined with Atomic Bombs which they threaten
to set off by radio if terms are not met by ---"
Good citizens with telekinetic ability, get us through that threat, and
then move on to really adjust the threat.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Nightmare
Are hackers doing what Heinlein had telekinetics do? Certainly computers
do a considerable portion of arming and fusing a warhead. Could a hacker
set off a different country's weapon????
No. That's impossible. Missiles are not connected to the web.
I would have once made the same statement about powerplants.

logic != reality
a425couple
2017-04-18 15:37:51 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Heinlein's book "The Meanace From Earth" is a collection of short stories.
They include "Project Nightmare".
So the last couple of years we have faced increasing concern about North
Korea's development of Atomic Bombs and their threats to use them.
Tricky situation with no easy solution visible. Then the most recent
early missile failure -----, reminded me of "Project Nightmare".
"Russian Embasy today handed State ultimatum --
Demands USA convert to 'peoples republic'----
Note claims major US cities (list separate) are
mined with Atomic Bombs which they threaten
to set off by radio if terms are not met by ---"
Good citizens with telekinetic ability, get us through that threat, and
then move on to really adjust the threat.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Nightmare
Are hackers doing what Heinlein had telekinetics do? Certainly computers
do a considerable portion of arming and fusing a warhead. Could a hacker
set off a different country's weapon????
STORY SPOILER

IMHO = Quite interesting finish.
So, all the work of the telekinetic team got focused on
finding all the A-bombs that Russia had snuck into the US.
They kept all but one (poor Cleveland!! always picked on!)
from being set off.
Now they get asked to focus their attention on another
mission, could they find the Russian A-bombs in Russia and
start setting them off there, while they were still far away??
She gets a far away look, and asks for a quiet room and a
large pot of tea!!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_nuclear_weapons_tests_of_North_Korea
Phil Brown
2017-07-07 17:56:46 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
There's another take on this sort of thing in Solution Unsatisfactory.
Loading...