Discussion:
Hmm, not the Air Force & not the Navy..
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Ted Nolan <tednolan>
2018-06-19 16:11:21 UTC
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A lot of SF (milsf especially, of course) assumes a Space Navy with
heavy wet Navy traditions. In real life, it appeared for a long while
that in the US, the "space" arm of the military would be the Air Force.

Now it appears we will have an actual "Space Force" separate from
either older service:

https://www.space.com/40932-trump-space-force-next-steps.html

Of course, this is contingent on Congressional action, so it may all
grind to a halt if the midterms shift control..

All apart from the important military ramifications, there should be some
neat logos and patches..
--
------
columbiaclosings.com
What's not in Columbia anymore..
Panthera Tigris Altaica
2018-06-19 16:31:08 UTC
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Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
A lot of SF (milsf especially, of course) assumes a Space Navy with
heavy wet Navy traditions. In real life, it appeared for a long while
that in the US, the "space" arm of the military would be the Air Force.
Ben Bova, I think, had a lot of stories involving the United States AeroSpace Force. Chet Kinsman was the main character, I think.
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Now it appears we will have an actual "Space Force" separate from
https://www.space.com/40932-trump-space-force-next-steps.html
Of course, this is contingent on Congressional action, so it may all
grind to a halt if the midterms shift control..
All apart from the important military ramifications, there should be some
neat logos and patches..
--
------
columbiaclosings.com
What's not in Columbia anymore..
Peter Trei
2018-06-19 17:19:01 UTC
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Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
A lot of SF (milsf especially, of course) assumes a Space Navy with
heavy wet Navy traditions. In real life, it appeared for a long while
that in the US, the "space" arm of the military would be the Air Force.
Now it appears we will have an actual "Space Force" separate from
https://www.space.com/40932-trump-space-force-next-steps.html
Of course, this is contingent on Congressional action, so it may all
grind to a halt if the midterms shift control..
All apart from the important military ramifications, there should be some
neat logos and patches..
...and if they have an academy for training Space Force officers, then we'll
have actual Space Cadets!

pt
Ted Nolan <tednolan>
2018-06-19 17:26:56 UTC
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Post by Peter Trei
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
A lot of SF (milsf especially, of course) assumes a Space Navy with
heavy wet Navy traditions. In real life, it appeared for a long while
that in the US, the "space" arm of the military would be the Air Force.
Now it appears we will have an actual "Space Force" separate from
https://www.space.com/40932-trump-space-force-next-steps.html
Of course, this is contingent on Congressional action, so it may all
grind to a halt if the midterms shift control..
All apart from the important military ramifications, there should be some
neat logos and patches..
...and if they have an academy for training Space Force officers, then we'll
have actual Space Cadets!
pt
Maybe even Eager Young Space Cadets!


--
------
columbiaclosings.com
What's not in Columbia anymore..
Dorothy J Heydt
2018-06-19 17:23:59 UTC
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Post by Peter Trei
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
A lot of SF (milsf especially, of course) assumes a Space Navy with
heavy wet Navy traditions. In real life, it appeared for a long while
that in the US, the "space" arm of the military would be the Air Force.
Now it appears we will have an actual "Space Force" separate from
https://www.space.com/40932-trump-space-force-next-steps.html
Of course, this is contingent on Congressional action, so it may all
grind to a halt if the midterms shift control..
All apart from the important military ramifications, there should be some
neat logos and patches..
...and if they have an academy for training Space Force officers, then we'll
have actual Space Cadets!
And never mind whether it's quasi-Navy or quasi-Air Force,
they'll still have cadets. Back in WWII, my father was a cadet
instructor for the US Army Air Corps, as it was then.

(He didn't teach them how to fly; he had a slide projector with a
quick-timed shutter, to teach them how to recognize friendly and
unfriendly aircraft in so many tenths of a second.)
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Kevrob
2018-06-19 18:17:01 UTC
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Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Peter Trei
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
A lot of SF (milsf especially, of course) assumes a Space Navy with
heavy wet Navy traditions. In real life, it appeared for a long while
that in the US, the "space" arm of the military would be the Air Force.
Now it appears we will have an actual "Space Force" separate from
https://www.space.com/40932-trump-space-force-next-steps.html
Of course, this is contingent on Congressional action, so it may all
grind to a halt if the midterms shift control..
All apart from the important military ramifications, there should be some
neat logos and patches..
...and if they have an academy for training Space Force officers, then we'll
have actual Space Cadets!
And never mind whether it's quasi-Navy or quasi-Air Force,
they'll still have cadets. Back in WWII, my father was a cadet
instructor for the US Army Air Corps, as it was then.
(He didn't teach them how to fly; he had a slide projector with a
quick-timed shutter, to teach them how to recognize friendly and
unfriendly aircraft in so many tenths of a second.)
-
Please, a Space quasi-Navy would have Space Midshipmen.
If there are Space Middies, would there not eventually be
Space Marines? We were toying with the idea IRL:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SUSTAIN_(military)

Merging Naval and Air Force traditions might be the thing
to do, creating a tertium quid.

Kevin R
Dorothy J Heydt
2018-06-19 19:22:56 UTC
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Post by Kevrob
Please, a Space quasi-Navy would have Space Midshipmen.
If there are Space Middies, would there not eventually be
Well, Heinlein put Space Marines in his _Space Cadet._ They wore
flashy uniforms and didn't have to study higher mathematics,
which is why the protagonist was tempted to transfer.
Post by Kevrob
Merging Naval and Air Force traditions might be the thing
to do, creating a tertium quid.
If we have to have a military presence in space at all, which
(alas) we probably do. One of the major things Heinlein's Space
Patrol did was to inspect the howevermany nuclear missiles in
orbit around Earth, ready to be sent down if somebody got too
ornery. Let's hope it doesn't come to that.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Jack Bohn
2018-06-20 13:02:44 UTC
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Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Kevrob
Merging Naval and Air Force traditions might be the thing
to do, creating a tertium quid.
If we have to have a military presence in space at all, which
(alas) we probably do. One of the major things Heinlein's Space
Patrol did was to inspect the howevermany nuclear missiles in
orbit around Earth, ready to be sent down if somebody got too
ornery. Let's hope it doesn't come to that.
A Space Force's abilities would be limited not only by what the other branches are unwilling to give up, but also by space activities forbidden by treaties. E.g, that nuclear missile count should be zero. Of course, when you need your armed forces is when treaties are out the window.

No one has mentioned the problem of reshaping the Pentagon. Are the Navy and Air Force on adjacent sides such that the Space Force can be installed between them? In an example of "them that has shall get," those with corner offices will see them expand as we widen the angles.
--
-Jack
David DeLaney
2018-06-21 14:56:20 UTC
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Post by Jack Bohn
No one has mentioned the problem of reshaping the Pentagon. Are the Navy and
Air Force on adjacent sides such that the Space Force can be installed
between them? In an example of "them that has shall get," those with corner
offices will see them expand as we widen the angles.
"widen the angles"? Nah - either we'll use Spaaaace Tech to just add a 6th side
by twisting the local geometry to be hyperbolic, with 432 degrees around each
local point (obSF: Mary Gentle, I think it's The Architecture of Desire, with
5 directions all at right angles nstead of 4, and the much more recent
Dichronauts by Greg Egan, who explores life on a world that has a hyperbolic
2+1 -spatial- geometry (plus time) which works analogously to how relativistic
3+1 spacetime geometry does) ... or suspend the 6th side in orbit above the
others, with stepping discs to connect them in (obSF - Shendering, the
Scrambled City in Sucharitkul's Inquestor series, which had bits of itself on
the local moon).

Dave, think big or stay home
--
\/David DeLaney posting thru EarthLink - "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
my gatekeeper archives are no longer accessible :( / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.
D B Davis
2018-06-21 16:36:27 UTC
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Post by David DeLaney
Post by Jack Bohn
No one has mentioned the problem of reshaping the Pentagon. Are the Navy and
Air Force on adjacent sides such that the Space Force can be installed
between them? In an example of "them that has shall get," those with corner
offices will see them expand as we widen the angles.
"widen the angles"? Nah - either we'll use Spaaaace Tech to just add a 6th side
by twisting the local geometry to be hyperbolic, with 432 degrees around each
local point (obSF: Mary Gentle, I think it's The Architecture of Desire, with
5 directions all at right angles nstead of 4, and the much more recent
Dichronauts by Greg Egan, who explores life on a world that has a hyperbolic
2+1 -spatial- geometry (plus time) which works analogously to how relativistic
3+1 spacetime geometry does) ... or suspend the 6th side in orbit above the
others, with stepping discs to connect them in (obSF - Shendering, the
Scrambled City in Sucharitkul's Inquestor series, which had bits of itself on
the local moon).
Does the eponymous structure in _And He Built a Crooked House_ (RAH)
offer unlimited space? If so, perhaps a crooked Pentagon is called for
.. oh! ... never mind.



Thank you,
--
Don
Quadibloc
2018-06-20 07:32:34 UTC
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Post by Peter Trei
...and if they have an academy for training Space Force officers, then we'll
have actual Space Cadets!
I wonder if they'll get to use computers with cool keyboards:

http://world.std.com/~jdostale/kbd/SpaceCadet.html

...an early version of the keyboard for the Symbolics LISP Machine that had the
mathematical symbols available through extra shifts visible on the keys.

John Savard
Dorothy J Heydt
2018-06-20 16:03:19 UTC
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Post by Quadibloc
Post by Peter Trei
...and if they have an academy for training Space Force officers, then we'll
have actual Space Cadets!
http://world.std.com/~jdostale/kbd/SpaceCadet.html
...an early version of the keyboard for the Symbolics LISP Machine that had the
mathematical symbols available through extra shifts visible on the keys.
Well, dammit, my eyes are not good enough to read those itty
bitty key images. But the line about "It was designed by
committee and no suggestion was rejected" is a good one.

Wait, my system haS a Zoom function ... no, dammit, even at 400x
I can't read the keys, because the plastic was shiny. I only get
an impression that there were LOTS of little characters on each
key.

I earned my living typing for forty years, and I came across a
few weird keyboards. I can only be thankful that I never had to
deal with that one.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Peter Trei
2018-06-21 16:57:17 UTC
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Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Quadibloc
Post by Peter Trei
...and if they have an academy for training Space Force officers, then we'll
have actual Space Cadets!
http://world.std.com/~jdostale/kbd/SpaceCadet.html
...an early version of the keyboard for the Symbolics LISP Machine that had the
mathematical symbols available through extra shifts visible on the keys.
Well, dammit, my eyes are not good enough to read those itty
bitty key images. But the line about "It was designed by
committee and no suggestion was rejected" is a good one.
Wait, my system haS a Zoom function ... no, dammit, even at 400x
I can't read the keys, because the plastic was shiny. I only get
an impression that there were LOTS of little characters on each
key.
I earned my living typing for forty years, and I came across a
few weird keyboards. I can only be thankful that I never had to
deal with that one.
Click on the images, and you'll get the full sized images.

pt
Dimensional Traveler
2018-06-19 17:37:03 UTC
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Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
A lot of SF (milsf especially, of course) assumes a Space Navy with
heavy wet Navy traditions. In real life, it appeared for a long while
that in the US, the "space" arm of the military would be the Air Force.
Now it appears we will have an actual "Space Force" separate from
https://www.space.com/40932-trump-space-force-next-steps.html
Of course, this is contingent on Congressional action, so it may all
grind to a halt if the midterms shift control..
All apart from the important military ramifications, there should be some
neat logos and patches..
As much as I would like some kind of Space Force I find it hard to take
Trump's "order" here seriously. He has a history of saying things that
he never follows up on and as the article referenced says it really
isn't up to him. I say get back to us when Congress passes the bill.
--
Inquiring minds want to know while minds with a self-preservation
instinct are running screaming.
Dorothy J Heydt
2018-06-19 17:21:15 UTC
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Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
A lot of SF (milsf especially, of course) assumes a Space Navy with
heavy wet Navy traditions. In real life, it appeared for a long while
that in the US, the "space" arm of the military would be the Air Force.
Now it appears we will have an actual "Space Force" separate from
https://www.space.com/40932-trump-space-force-next-steps.html
Of course, this is contingent on Congressional action, so it may all
grind to a halt if the midterms shift control..
From your mouth to God's ear, amen.
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
All apart from the important military ramifications, there should be some
neat logos and patches..
NASA has already had some nifty logos and patches.

I just googled "SpaceX logo." It's pretty drab. Surely they can
do better than that?
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Scott Lurndal
2018-06-19 17:57:04 UTC
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Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
A lot of SF (milsf especially, of course) assumes a Space Navy with
heavy wet Navy traditions. In real life, it appeared for a long while
that in the US, the "space" arm of the military would be the Air Force.
Now it appears we will have an actual "Space Force" separate from
https://www.space.com/40932-trump-space-force-next-steps.html
Of course, this is contingent on Congressional action, so it may all
grind to a halt if the midterms shift control..
From your mouth to God's ear, amen.
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
All apart from the important military ramifications, there should be some
neat logos and patches..
NASA has already had some nifty logos and patches.
I just googled "SpaceX logo." It's pretty drab. Surely they can
do better than that?
Personally I'd rather they concentrate on cool spacecraft rather than
cool logos....
Dorothy J Heydt
2018-06-19 19:25:08 UTC
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Post by Scott Lurndal
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
A lot of SF (milsf especially, of course) assumes a Space Navy with
heavy wet Navy traditions. In real life, it appeared for a long while
that in the US, the "space" arm of the military would be the Air Force.
Now it appears we will have an actual "Space Force" separate from
https://www.space.com/40932-trump-space-force-next-steps.html
Of course, this is contingent on Congressional action, so it may all
grind to a halt if the midterms shift control..
From your mouth to God's ear, amen.
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
All apart from the important military ramifications, there should be some
neat logos and patches..
NASA has already had some nifty logos and patches.
I just googled "SpaceX logo." It's pretty drab. Surely they can
do better than that?
Personally I'd rather they concentrate on cool spacecraft rather than
cool logos....
No reason they can't have both, particularly since the cool logos
will cost a lot less than the cool spacecraft.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Dimensional Traveler
2018-06-19 22:04:40 UTC
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Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Scott Lurndal
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
A lot of SF (milsf especially, of course) assumes a Space Navy with
heavy wet Navy traditions. In real life, it appeared for a long while
that in the US, the "space" arm of the military would be the Air Force.
Now it appears we will have an actual "Space Force" separate from
https://www.space.com/40932-trump-space-force-next-steps.html
Of course, this is contingent on Congressional action, so it may all
grind to a halt if the midterms shift control..
From your mouth to God's ear, amen.
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
All apart from the important military ramifications, there should be some
neat logos and patches..
NASA has already had some nifty logos and patches.
I just googled "SpaceX logo." It's pretty drab. Surely they can
do better than that?
Personally I'd rather they concentrate on cool spacecraft rather than
cool logos....
No reason they can't have both, particularly since the cool logos
will cost a lot less than the cool spacecraft.
And the logos can be cooler with cool spaceships on them. :)
--
Inquiring minds want to know while minds with a self-preservation
instinct are running screaming.
D B Davis
2018-06-19 19:54:03 UTC
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Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
A lot of SF (milsf especially, of course) assumes a Space Navy with
heavy wet Navy traditions. In real life, it appeared for a long while
that in the US, the "space" arm of the military would be the Air Force.
Now it appears we will have an actual "Space Force" separate from
https://www.space.com/40932-trump-space-force-next-steps.html
Of course, this is contingent on Congressional action, so it may all
grind to a halt if the midterms shift control..
From your mouth to God's ear, amen.
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
All apart from the important military ramifications, there should be some
neat logos and patches..
NASA has already had some nifty logos and patches.
I just googled "SpaceX logo." It's pretty drab. Surely they can
do better than that?
Submitted for your approval.

Loading Image...



Thank you,
--
Don
Panthera Tigris Altaica
2018-06-19 20:05:48 UTC
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Post by D B Davis
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
A lot of SF (milsf especially, of course) assumes a Space Navy with
heavy wet Navy traditions. In real life, it appeared for a long while
that in the US, the "space" arm of the military would be the Air Force.
Now it appears we will have an actual "Space Force" separate from
https://www.space.com/40932-trump-space-force-next-steps.html
Of course, this is contingent on Congressional action, so it may all
grind to a halt if the midterms shift control..
From your mouth to God's ear, amen.
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
All apart from the important military ramifications, there should be some
neat logos and patches..
NASA has already had some nifty logos and patches.
I just googled "SpaceX logo." It's pretty drab. Surely they can
do better than that?
Submitted for your approval.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Gen_Merrill_McPeak_1993.jpg
His uniform is way too drab, even if you count the rings on the cuffs. American officers who aren't Navy don't usually have rings. Other places do. Here's the chief of the RAF. http://www.quazoo.com/q/Chief_of_the_Air_Staff_(United_Kingdom)?alt=Chief_of_the_air_staff_(united_kingdom)
He has lots of rings, and lots of other things.
Lawrence Watt-Evans
2018-06-19 20:37:08 UTC
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On Tue, 19 Jun 2018 13:05:48 -0700 (PDT), Panthera Tigris Altaica
Post by Panthera Tigris Altaica
Post by D B Davis
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
A lot of SF (milsf especially, of course) assumes a Space Navy with
heavy wet Navy traditions. In real life, it appeared for a long while
that in the US, the "space" arm of the military would be the Air Force.
Now it appears we will have an actual "Space Force" separate from
https://www.space.com/40932-trump-space-force-next-steps.html
Of course, this is contingent on Congressional action, so it may all
grind to a halt if the midterms shift control..
From your mouth to God's ear, amen.
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
All apart from the important military ramifications, there should be some
neat logos and patches..
NASA has already had some nifty logos and patches.
I just googled "SpaceX logo." It's pretty drab. Surely they can
do better than that?
Submitted for your approval.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Gen_Merrill_McPeak_1993.jpg
His uniform is way too drab, even if you count the rings on the cuffs. American officers who aren't Navy don't usually have rings. Other places do. Here's the chief of the RAF. http://www.quazoo.com/q/Chief_of_the_Air_Staff_(United_Kingdom)?alt=Chief_of_the_air_staff_(united_kingdom)
He has lots of rings, and lots of other things.
The USAF was entirely spun off from the U.S. Army; the Royal Air Force
was created by merging the Royal Flying Corps (army) with the Royal
Naval Air Service, so it's got more naval influence than the USAF.
--
My webpage is at http://www.watt-evans.com
My latest novel is Stone Unturned: A Legend of Ethshar.
See http://www.ethshar.com/StoneUnturned.shtml
Anthony Frost
2018-06-20 06:49:29 UTC
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Post by Lawrence Watt-Evans
The USAF was entirely spun off from the U.S. Army; the Royal Air Force
was created by merging the Royal Flying Corps (army) with the Royal
Naval Air Service, so it's got more naval influence than the USAF.
Initially yes, but the Fleet Air Arm comes and goes reducing the
influence of the RAF on the Navy.

Anthony
David DeLaney
2018-06-21 14:59:40 UTC
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Post by Lawrence Watt-Evans
The USAF was entirely spun off from the U.S. Army; the Royal Air Force
was created by merging the Royal Flying Corps (army) with the Royal
Naval Air Service, so it's got more naval influence than the USAF.
And, because of the classic Suntones quartet, I know the lyrics from the Armed
Forces Medley (US forces, of course) from -before- the splitoff occurred...

Dave, the caissons / go rolling / along!
--
\/David DeLaney posting thru EarthLink - "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
my gatekeeper archives are no longer accessible :( / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.
Dorothy J Heydt
2018-06-19 23:57:13 UTC
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Post by Panthera Tigris Altaica
Post by D B Davis
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
I just googled "SpaceX logo." It's pretty drab. Surely they can
do better than that?
Submitted for your approval.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Gen_Merrill_McPeak_1993.jpg
His uniform is way too drab, even if you count the rings on the cuffs.
American officers who aren't Navy don't usually have rings. Other places
do. Here's the chief of the RAF.
http://www.quazoo.com/q/Chief_of_the_Air_Staff_(United_Kingdom)?alt=Chief_of_the_air_staff_(united_kingdom)
He has lots of rings, and lots of other things.
Well, he has some gold braid on his shoulder. I'm still not very
whelmed.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Dimensional Traveler
2018-06-19 22:06:50 UTC
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Post by D B Davis
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
A lot of SF (milsf especially, of course) assumes a Space Navy with
heavy wet Navy traditions. In real life, it appeared for a long while
that in the US, the "space" arm of the military would be the Air Force.
Now it appears we will have an actual "Space Force" separate from
https://www.space.com/40932-trump-space-force-next-steps.html
Of course, this is contingent on Congressional action, so it may all
grind to a halt if the midterms shift control..
From your mouth to God's ear, amen.
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
All apart from the important military ramifications, there should be some
neat logos and patches..
NASA has already had some nifty logos and patches.
I just googled "SpaceX logo." It's pretty drab. Surely they can
do better than that?
Submitted for your approval.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Gen_Merrill_McPeak_1993.jpg

Thank you,
I don't think he needs approval from any of us peons. :)
--
Inquiring minds want to know while minds with a self-preservation
instinct are running screaming.
Dorothy J Heydt
2018-06-19 23:55:06 UTC
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Post by D B Davis
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
I just googled "SpaceX logo." It's pretty drab. Surely they can
do better than that?
Submitted for your approval.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Gen_Merrill_McPeak_1993.jpg
Hm. Am I supposed to look at the General, or at the logo on his
uniform? It looks like the standard military shield with a bunch
of weapons protruding from it in saltire, by which I am
underwhelmed.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Ninapenda Jibini
2018-06-19 20:55:19 UTC
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Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
A lot of SF (milsf especially, of course) assumes a Space Navy
with heavy wet Navy traditions. In real life, it appeared for a
long while that in the US, the "space" arm of the military would
be the Air Force.
Now it appears we will have an actual "Space Force" separate
https://www.space.com/40932-trump-space-force-next-steps.htm
l
Of course, this is contingent on Congressional action, so it may
all grind to a halt if the midterms shift control..
From your mouth to God's ear, amen.
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
All apart from the important military ramifications, there
should be some neat logos and patches..
NASA has already had some nifty logos and patches.
I just googled "SpaceX logo." It's pretty drab. Surely they
can do better than that?
I doubt that they could justify a large enough susbidy of taxpayer
money to make it worth Musk's while.

(And given his latest ramblings about sabotage and Big Auto
conpiracies, I think he's becoming Ross Perot. Has he talked about
a Presidential run yet?)
--
Terry Austin

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.
Juho Julkunen
2018-06-20 10:19:43 UTC
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Post by Ninapenda Jibini
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
A lot of SF (milsf especially, of course) assumes a Space Navy
with heavy wet Navy traditions. In real life, it appeared for a
long while that in the US, the "space" arm of the military would
be the Air Force.
Now it appears we will have an actual "Space Force" separate
https://www.space.com/40932-trump-space-force-next-steps.htm
l
Of course, this is contingent on Congressional action, so it may
all grind to a halt if the midterms shift control..
From your mouth to God's ear, amen.
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
All apart from the important military ramifications, there
should be some neat logos and patches..
NASA has already had some nifty logos and patches.
I just googled "SpaceX logo." It's pretty drab. Surely they
can do better than that?
I doubt that they could justify a large enough susbidy of taxpayer
money to make it worth Musk's while.
(And given his latest ramblings about sabotage and Big Auto
conpiracies, I think he's becoming Ross Perot. Has he talked about
a Presidential run yet?)
It's kinda implied, isn't it? If Zuckerberg, why not him?

Peter Thiel just wants to be an immortal vampire on a space station,
I've gathered.
--
Juho Julkunen
Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
2018-06-20 15:46:44 UTC
Reply
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Post by Juho Julkunen
Post by Ninapenda Jibini
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
A lot of SF (milsf especially, of course) assumes a Space
Navy with heavy wet Navy traditions. In real life, it
appeared for a long while that in the US, the "space" arm of
the military would be the Air Force.
Now it appears we will have an actual "Space Force" separate
https://www.space.com/40932-trump-space-force-next-steps.
htm l
Of course, this is contingent on Congressional action, so it
may all grind to a halt if the midterms shift control..
From your mouth to God's ear, amen.
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
All apart from the important military ramifications, there
should be some neat logos and patches..
NASA has already had some nifty logos and patches.
I just googled "SpaceX logo." It's pretty drab. Surely they
can do better than that?
I doubt that they could justify a large enough susbidy of
taxpayer money to make it worth Musk's while.
(And given his latest ramblings about sabotage and Big Auto
conpiracies, I think he's becoming Ross Perot. Has he talked
about a Presidential run yet?)
It's kinda implied, isn't it? If Zuckerberg, why not him?
Well, the conspiracy against Zuck isn't secret. There have been
congressional hearings. So he won't sound as nutty if he talks
about conspiracies.

(Mind you, I'm not saying there's *not* a conspiracy by Big Auto to
destroy Tesla. It's not like there isn't historical precedent. Just
that Musk sounds like a looney when he says it out loud. In the
same vein, I can think of every plausible reasons why Ross Perot
had good reason to believe the CIA was threatening himself and his
family. The two more plausible are a) he was batshit crazy and
hallucinating, or b) the CIA was theratening himself and his
family.)
Post by Juho Julkunen
Peter Thiel just wants to be an immortal vampire on a space
station, I've gathered.
How certain are you that he hasn't already succeeded?
--
Terry Austin

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.
Juho Julkunen
2018-06-21 18:13:59 UTC
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Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
Post by Juho Julkunen
Peter Thiel just wants to be an immortal vampire on a space
station, I've gathered.
How certain are you that he hasn't already succeeded?
Not as certain as I'd like to be, but I'm reasonably confident we'd
spot the station, at least.
--
Juho Julkunen
Dimensional Traveler
2018-06-21 20:13:40 UTC
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Post by Juho Julkunen
Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
Post by Juho Julkunen
Peter Thiel just wants to be an immortal vampire on a space
station, I've gathered.
How certain are you that he hasn't already succeeded?
Not as certain as I'd like to be, but I'm reasonably confident we'd
spot the station, at least.
Cue the movie 'Moonraker'. (Which ties in the Space Marines nicely.)
--
Inquiring minds want to know while minds with a self-preservation
instinct are running screaming.
Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
2018-06-22 17:41:54 UTC
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Post by Juho Julkunen
Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
Post by Juho Julkunen
Peter Thiel just wants to be an immortal vampire on a space
station, I've gathered.
How certain are you that he hasn't already succeeded?
Not as certain as I'd like to be, but I'm reasonably confident
we'd spot the station, at least.
Have you ever actually *looked*?
--
Terry Austin

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.
Quadibloc
2018-06-19 19:41:07 UTC
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Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
A lot of SF (milsf especially, of course) assumes a Space Navy with
heavy wet Navy traditions.
Which would make sense if space travel was similar to ocean travel. And with
faster-than-light ships, and exotic ports of call on other planets, the analogy
is plain.

With the more limited space capability we have now, a link to the air force
makes sense; space is another way to reach any point on Earth (with ballistic
missiles, for example).

John Savard
Ninapenda Jibini
2018-06-19 20:58:13 UTC
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On Tuesday, June 19, 2018 at 10:11:24 AM UTC-6, Ted Nolan
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
A lot of SF (milsf especially, of course) assumes a Space Navy
with heavy wet Navy traditions.
Which would make sense if space travel was similar to ocean
travel.
There are similarities, though more in speculative fiction than
reality so far.

Air Force people live in bases, while Navy people live in ships.
Space stations are far more like ships than bases.

But mostly, navies have far richer traditions to draw upon, and
writers are notoriously lazy.
--
Terry Austin

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.
Lawrence Watt-Evans
2018-06-20 03:37:25 UTC
Reply
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On Tue, 19 Jun 2018 20:58:13 GMT, Ninapenda Jibini
Post by Ninapenda Jibini
On Tuesday, June 19, 2018 at 10:11:24 AM UTC-6, Ted Nolan
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
A lot of SF (milsf especially, of course) assumes a Space Navy
with heavy wet Navy traditions.
Which would make sense if space travel was similar to ocean
travel.
There are similarities, though more in speculative fiction than
reality so far.
Air Force people live in bases, while Navy people live in ships.
Space stations are far more like ships than bases.
But mostly, navies have far richer traditions to draw upon, and
writers are notoriously lazy.
We're SELECTIVELY lazy. We'll put in absolutely insane levels of
effort in certain areas. Inventing an entire new military culture
isn't one of those areas for most of us.
--
My webpage is at http://www.watt-evans.com
My latest novel is Stone Unturned: A Legend of Ethshar.
See http://www.ethshar.com/StoneUnturned.shtml
Dimensional Traveler
2018-06-20 05:12:13 UTC
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Post by Lawrence Watt-Evans
On Tue, 19 Jun 2018 20:58:13 GMT, Ninapenda Jibini
Post by Ninapenda Jibini
On Tuesday, June 19, 2018 at 10:11:24 AM UTC-6, Ted Nolan
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
A lot of SF (milsf especially, of course) assumes a Space Navy
with heavy wet Navy traditions.
Which would make sense if space travel was similar to ocean
travel.
There are similarities, though more in speculative fiction than
reality so far.
Air Force people live in bases, while Navy people live in ships.
Space stations are far more like ships than bases.
But mostly, navies have far richer traditions to draw upon, and
writers are notoriously lazy.
We're SELECTIVELY lazy. We'll put in absolutely insane levels of
effort in certain areas. Inventing an entire new military culture
isn't one of those areas for most of us.
Building a military service's traditions is not something that works
well by ordering it from the top. And even if someone tried that, the
traditions would just change with the history of the service. (I'm
reminded of the British Admiral off Crete saying something about a fleet
in being is only useful if one _uses_ it.)
--
Inquiring minds want to know while minds with a self-preservation
instinct are running screaming.
m***@sky.com
2018-06-22 18:14:16 UTC
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Post by Dimensional Traveler
Post by Lawrence Watt-Evans
On Tue, 19 Jun 2018 20:58:13 GMT, Ninapenda Jibini
Post by Ninapenda Jibini
On Tuesday, June 19, 2018 at 10:11:24 AM UTC-6, Ted Nolan
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
A lot of SF (milsf especially, of course) assumes a Space Navy
with heavy wet Navy traditions.
Which would make sense if space travel was similar to ocean
travel.
There are similarities, though more in speculative fiction than
reality so far.
Air Force people live in bases, while Navy people live in ships.
Space stations are far more like ships than bases.
But mostly, navies have far richer traditions to draw upon, and
writers are notoriously lazy.
We're SELECTIVELY lazy. We'll put in absolutely insane levels of
effort in certain areas. Inventing an entire new military culture
isn't one of those areas for most of us.
Building a military service's traditions is not something that works
well by ordering it from the top. And even if someone tried that, the
traditions would just change with the history of the service. (I'm
reminded of the British Admiral off Crete saying something about a fleet
in being is only useful if one _uses_ it.)
--
Inquiring minds want to know while minds with a self-preservation
instinct are running screaming.
This is not the quote you are looking for, but it is by Admiral Cunningham off Crete and it does display the importance placed on tradition. I have seen it quoted elsewhere, but this is from a chapter in Winton's "Cunningham..." in which Cunningham repeatedly refers to tradition.

It has always been the duty of the Navy to take the Army overseas to battle and, if the Army fail, to bring them back again.

If we now break with that tradition, ever afterwards when soldiers go overseas they will tend to look over their shoulders instead of relying on the Navy. You have said, General, that it will take three years to build a new Fleet. I will tell you that it will take three hundred years to build a new tradition. If, gentlemen, you now order the Army in Crete to surrender, the Fleet will still go there to bring of the Marines.
Dimensional Traveler
2018-06-22 19:21:16 UTC
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Post by m***@sky.com
Post by Dimensional Traveler
Post by Lawrence Watt-Evans
On Tue, 19 Jun 2018 20:58:13 GMT, Ninapenda Jibini
Post by Ninapenda Jibini
On Tuesday, June 19, 2018 at 10:11:24 AM UTC-6, Ted Nolan
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
A lot of SF (milsf especially, of course) assumes a Space Navy
with heavy wet Navy traditions.
Which would make sense if space travel was similar to ocean
travel.
There are similarities, though more in speculative fiction than
reality so far.
Air Force people live in bases, while Navy people live in ships.
Space stations are far more like ships than bases.
But mostly, navies have far richer traditions to draw upon, and
writers are notoriously lazy.
We're SELECTIVELY lazy. We'll put in absolutely insane levels of
effort in certain areas. Inventing an entire new military culture
isn't one of those areas for most of us.
Building a military service's traditions is not something that works
well by ordering it from the top. And even if someone tried that, the
traditions would just change with the history of the service. (I'm
reminded of the British Admiral off Crete saying something about a fleet
in being is only useful if one _uses_ it.)
This is not the quote you are looking for, but it is by Admiral Cunningham off Crete and it does display the importance placed on tradition. I have seen it quoted elsewhere, but this is from a chapter in Winton's "Cunningham..." in which Cunningham repeatedly refers to tradition.
It has always been the duty of the Navy to take the Army overseas to battle and, if the Army fail, to bring them back again.
If we now break with that tradition, ever afterwards when soldiers go overseas they will tend to look over their shoulders instead of relying on the Navy. You have said, General, that it will take three years to build a new Fleet. I will tell you that it will take three hundred years to build a new tradition. If, gentlemen, you now order the Army in Crete to surrender, the Fleet will still go there to bring of the Marines.
Memory is fallible and I may have been conflating with something else.
Thank you for looking that up.
--
Inquiring minds want to know while minds with a self-preservation
instinct are running screaming.
Kevrob
2018-06-23 15:35:03 UTC
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Post by Dimensional Traveler
Memory is fallible and I may have been conflating with something else.
Thank you for looking that up.
As for quotations about fleets Seth Meyer's "Late Night" crew had some fun:



Kevin R

Ninapenda Jibini
2018-06-20 06:02:57 UTC
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Post by Lawrence Watt-Evans
On Tue, 19 Jun 2018 20:58:13 GMT, Ninapenda Jibini
Post by Ninapenda Jibini
On Tuesday, June 19, 2018 at 10:11:24 AM UTC-6, Ted Nolan
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
A lot of SF (milsf especially, of course) assumes a Space
Navy with heavy wet Navy traditions.
Which would make sense if space travel was similar to ocean
travel.
There are similarities, though more in speculative fiction than
reality so far.
Air Force people live in bases, while Navy people live in ships.
Space stations are far more like ships than bases.
But mostly, navies have far richer traditions to draw upon, and
writers are notoriously lazy.
We're SELECTIVELY lazy.
Well, the competent ones are.
Post by Lawrence Watt-Evans
We'll put in absolutely insane levels of
effort in certain areas. Inventing an entire new military
culture isn't one of those areas for most of us.
Though some do.
--
Terry Austin

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.
David Johnston
2018-06-19 19:57:23 UTC
Reply
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Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
A lot of SF (milsf especially, of course) assumes a Space Navy with
heavy wet Navy traditions. In real life, it appeared for a long while
that in the US, the "space" arm of the military would be the Air Force.
Now it appears we will have an actual "Space Force" separate from
https://www.space.com/40932-trump-space-force-next-steps.html
Of course, this is contingent on Congressional action, so it may all
grind to a halt if the midterms shift control..
All apart from the important military ramifications, there should be some
neat logos and patches..
I'm fairly confident that even now not enough Republicans would be in favour to make this manchild fantasy a reality.
Robert Carnegie
2018-06-19 21:49:42 UTC
Reply
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Post by David Johnston
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
A lot of SF (milsf especially, of course) assumes a Space Navy with
heavy wet Navy traditions. In real life, it appeared for a long while
that in the US, the "space" arm of the military would be the Air Force.
Now it appears we will have an actual "Space Force" separate from
https://www.space.com/40932-trump-space-force-next-steps.html
Of course, this is contingent on Congressional action, so it may all
grind to a halt if the midterms shift control..
All apart from the important military ramifications, there should be some
neat logos and patches..
I'm fairly confident that even now not enough Republicans would be in favour to make this manchild fantasy a reality.
In Marvel Comics, Captain Marvel is routinely called
"boss of space".

She commands a world defence space base launched by Canada.

I mention it in the hope that America's little rocket man
has just exploded upon hearing of it.

Oh! It's a joint venture with Wakanda. You know, in
Africa. Do I hear... well, I can wait.
Dorothy J Heydt
2018-06-20 00:00:16 UTC
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Post by Robert Carnegie
In Marvel Comics, Captain Marvel is routinely called
"boss of space".
She commands a world defence space base launched by Canada.
She? When did she transition?
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Robert Carnegie
2018-06-20 02:10:09 UTC
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Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Robert Carnegie
In Marvel Comics, Captain Marvel is routinely called
"boss of space".
She commands a world defence space base launched by Canada.
She? When did she transition?
Yup. This isn't the DC Captain Marvel who says "Shazam";
Marvel Comics have had several, starting I think with
Mar-Vell from the planet Kree-Lar - no, that's his home
town, or something. He died. The current one is an
associate of his, Carol Danvers, USAF, A.K.A. "Ms. Marvel"
back then. The present "Ms. Marvel" is a teenaged Muslim
Inhuman from Jersey City. For your convenience, a list:
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Captain_Marvel>

I think her space station blew up but she probably
can get another one. You've heard of S.H.I.E.L.D.,
she runs S.W.O.R.D. (In space.) They bicker.
Kevrob
2018-06-20 06:13:49 UTC
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Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Robert Carnegie
In Marvel Comics, Captain Marvel is routinely called
"boss of space".
She commands a world defence space base launched by Canada.
She? When did she transition?
Yup. This isn't the DC Captain Marvel who says "Shazam";
Nitpick: the Fawcett Comics original, purchased, eventually
by DC, which had licensed a revival years after trapping
The Big Red Cheese in legal suspendium with a lawsuit
over copyright violation endong in a consent decree and
a check to DC-National.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Comics_Publications,_Inc._v._Fawcett_Publications,_Inc.
Post by Robert Carnegie
Marvel Comics have had several, starting I think with
Mar-Vell from the planet Kree-Lar - no, that's his home
town, or something.
Planet Hala had the Kree race, with the capital of the Kree
empire, Kree-Lar.
Post by Robert Carnegie
He died. The current one is an
associate of his, Carol Danvers, USAF, A.K.A. "Ms. Marvel"
back then. The present "Ms. Marvel" is a teenaged Muslim
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Captain_Marvel>
I think her space station blew up but she probably
can get another one. You've heard of S.H.I.E.L.D.,
she runs S.W.O.R.D. (In space.) They bicker.
Mary Marvel could have kicked her ass. She wouldn't
have, `cause Mary was nicer than that originally, and
with Athena's wisdom wouldn't have had to. [At least
before fanboy pervs in charge of the asylum turned MM
evil, and dirty/sexy, as opposed to Judy Garland-as-
Betsy Booth-wholesome-sexy.] OBSFAuthors: Mary Marvel's
original scripter was Otto Binder.

Kevin R
Robert Carnegie
2018-06-20 21:33:32 UTC
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Post by Kevrob
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Robert Carnegie
In Marvel Comics, Captain Marvel is routinely called
"boss of space".
She commands a world defence space base launched by Canada.
She? When did she transition?
Yup. This isn't the DC Captain Marvel who says "Shazam";
Nitpick: the Fawcett Comics original, purchased, eventually
by DC, which had licensed a revival years after trapping
The Big Red Cheese in legal suspendium with a lawsuit
over copyright violation endong in a consent decree and
a check to DC-National.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Comics_Publications,_Inc._v._Fawcett_Publications,_Inc.
Post by Robert Carnegie
Marvel Comics have had several, starting I think with
Mar-Vell from the planet Kree-Lar - no, that's his home
town, or something.
Planet Hala had the Kree race, with the capital of the Kree
empire, Kree-Lar.
Post by Robert Carnegie
He died. The current one is an
associate of his, Carol Danvers, USAF, A.K.A. "Ms. Marvel"
back then. The present "Ms. Marvel" is a teenaged Muslim
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Captain_Marvel>
I think her space station blew up but she probably
can get another one. You've heard of S.H.I.E.L.D.,
she runs S.W.O.R.D. (In space.) They bicker.
Mary Marvel could have kicked her ass. She wouldn't
have, `cause Mary was nicer than that originally, and
with Athena's wisdom wouldn't have had to. [At least
before fanboy pervs in charge of the asylum turned MM
evil, and dirty/sexy, as opposed to Judy Garland-as-
Betsy Booth-wholesome-sexy.] OBSFAuthors: Mary Marvel's
original scripter was Otto Binder.
Kevin R
The DC Marvels are basically Superman, Supergirl, etc.
Which is why DC had a problem with the line in the first
place. Wizard or no.

Carol Danvers' powers include drawing on available
energy sources; for a while she owned a white hole
for this purpose. So she can punch pretty hard.
Kevrob
2018-06-20 22:44:01 UTC
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Post by Robert Carnegie
The DC Marvels are basically Superman, Supergirl, etc.
Which is why DC had a problem with the line in the first
place. Wizard or no.
Captain Marvel and the Marvel family were created by Bill Parker
and CC Beck as boys' and girls' adventure story characters in the
tradition of fairy tales. Superman had science fiction roots.
Magic in a Superman story always seemed a bit out of place, with
an alternate (pseudo-)scientific explanation. Mr Mxyzptlk doesn't
actually do magic: that's 5th Dimensional science that only seems
to be magic.

When the magic lightning factory was shut down in the 50s, many
of the Big Red Cheese's artists and writers wound up at DC. Binder
wrote a ton of SUPERMAN, and Kurt Schaffenberger became THE artist
on the LOIS LANE comic. Marvelian whimsy found its way into the
Kryptonian Chronicles, and while the SUPERMAN strip had never been
humorless, you had to go some to find a hero-strip that did humor
better than CAPTAIN MARVEL: PLASTIC MAN? THE SPIRIT? SPARKY WATTS?
Post by Robert Carnegie
Carol Danvers' powers include drawing on available
energy sources; for a while she owned a white hole
for this purpose. So she can punch pretty hard.
Hey, she has a complicated history. What Jim Shooter did
to her in 1980s issues of THE AVENGERS....(brrrrrr.)

Kevin R
Quadibloc
2018-06-20 07:29:38 UTC
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Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Now it appears we will have an actual "Space Force" separate from
According to an Ars Technica article on this, this will only deal with military
space functions, and won't take over NASA. I was not aware that the United States
had militarized space to an extent that would make a force of this nature
practical on its own.

A force consisting of generals and bureaucrats, but almost no fighting personnel
is wasteful.

John Savard
Lynn McGuire
2018-06-20 19:54:31 UTC
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Post by Quadibloc
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Now it appears we will have an actual "Space Force" separate from
According to an Ars Technica article on this, this will only deal with military
space functions, and won't take over NASA. I was not aware that the United States
had militarized space to an extent that would make a force of this nature
practical on its own.
A force consisting of generals and bureaucrats, but almost no fighting personnel
is wasteful.
John Savard
You do know that the US Air Force has their own fleet of downsized space
shuttles, don't you ?
https://www.space.com/25275-x37b-space-plane.html

Lynn
David DeLaney
2018-06-21 15:05:10 UTC
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Post by Quadibloc
A force consisting of generals and bureaucrats, but almost no fighting
personnel is wasteful.
ObSF: Yet that's exactly how Ozma's fighting force based in the Emerald City
was organized. As was Ann Soforth's (Queen of Oogaboo) in Tik-Tok of OZ;
luckily they had a good gun tree handy to pick a nice ripe musket off of for
use by the one Private.

Dave, this organization also exemplifies what happens when you let people pick
their own ranks instead of making them work their way up
--
\/David DeLaney posting thru EarthLink - "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
my gatekeeper archives are no longer accessible :( / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.
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