Discussion:
The triumph of evil
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a***@gmail.com
2017-06-11 21:30:06 UTC
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I would like to read more realistic and pessimistic SF. In which evil triumphs. In reality, modelled as a game, most sides are evil. Thus it is more realistic for evil to triumph. It is hard to compete in an amoral world, with a "perfectly good" strategy. It would be interesting to read something where both, or all, sides are evil.

Abhinav Lal
Writer & Investor

"By denying the truth, you are denying yourself"
Don Kuenz
2017-06-11 21:59:25 UTC
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I would like to read more realistic and pessimistic SF. In which evil
triumphs. In reality, modelled as a game, most sides are evil. Thus
it is more realistic for evil to triumph. It is hard to compete in an
amoral world, with a "perfectly good" strategy. It would be interesting
to read something where both, or all, sides are evil.
Greater darkness triumphs over lessor darkness in "The Penitent Damned"
(Wexler). It's freely available at:

http://io9.gizmodo.com/the-coolest-fantasy-story-youll-read-this-week-514117561

Thank you,

--
Don Kuenz KB7RPU
Ted Nolan <tednolan>
2017-06-11 22:36:42 UTC
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Post by Don Kuenz
Post by a***@gmail.com
I would like to read more realistic and pessimistic SF. In which evil
triumphs. In reality, modelled as a game, most sides are evil. Thus
it is more realistic for evil to triumph. It is hard to compete in an
amoral world, with a "perfectly good" strategy. It would be interesting
to read something where both, or all, sides are evil.
Greater darkness triumphs over lessor darkness in "The Penitent Damned"
http://io9.gizmodo.com/the-coolest-fantasy-story-youll-read-this-week-514117561
I don't know that I would accept that characterization. I wouldn't call
the theives all that dark, and one of them gets away, after all.

Dark. Not my favorite thing, but hmm..

_As The Curtain Falls_ Rob Chilson

_1984_ Orwell

_We All Died at Breakaway Station_ Meredith

"Seeds of Dusk" Gallun

"With Folded Hands" Williamson

"Spectator Sport" McDonald

Elric in general Moorcock
--
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columbiaclosings.com
What's not in Columbia anymore..
Don Kuenz
2017-06-11 23:24:37 UTC
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Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Post by Don Kuenz
Post by a***@gmail.com
I would like to read more realistic and pessimistic SF. In which evil
triumphs. In reality, modelled as a game, most sides are evil. Thus
it is more realistic for evil to triumph. It is hard to compete in an
amoral world, with a "perfectly good" strategy. It would be interesting
to read something where both, or all, sides are evil.
Greater darkness triumphs over lessor darkness in "The Penitent Damned"
http://io9.gizmodo.com/the-coolest-fantasy-story-youll-read-this-week-514117561
I don't know that I would accept that characterization. I wouldn't call
the theives all that dark, and one of them gets away, after all.
spoiler space


In the end, Andreas gets them both. Metzing's at the bottom of the river
and Alex is sent north with Father Volstock. The greater darkness
triumphed despite my own desire for Alex to win.
Thank you,

--
Don Kuenz KB7RPU
Ted Nolan <tednolan>
2017-06-11 23:57:54 UTC
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Post by Don Kuenz
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Post by Don Kuenz
Post by a***@gmail.com
I would like to read more realistic and pessimistic SF. In which evil
triumphs. In reality, modelled as a game, most sides are evil. Thus
it is more realistic for evil to triumph. It is hard to compete in an
amoral world, with a "perfectly good" strategy. It would be interesting
to read something where both, or all, sides are evil.
Greater darkness triumphs over lessor darkness in "The Penitent Damned"
http://io9.gizmodo.com/the-coolest-fantasy-story-youll-read-this-week-514117561
I don't know that I would accept that characterization. I wouldn't call
the theives all that dark, and one of them gets away, after all.
spoiler space
In the end, Andreas gets them both. Metzing's at the bottom of the river
and Alex is sent north with Father Volstock. The greater darkness
triumphed despite my own desire for Alex to win.
Thank you,
Well. I won't tell you much, but that's not the end of Alex's story..
--
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columbiaclosings.com
What's not in Columbia anymore..
Carl Fink
2017-06-12 13:29:36 UTC
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Am I really the first to mention "I Have No Mouth, And I Must Scream"?
--
Carl Fink ***@nitpicking.com

Read my blog at blog.nitpicking.com. Reviews! Observations!
Stupid mistakes you can correct!
Don Kuenz
2017-06-12 14:40:57 UTC
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Post by Carl Fink
Am I really the first to mention "I Have No Mouth, And I Must Scream"?
Yes

Realistic and pessimistic SF?
Yes

Evil triumphs?
Yes

Gamey?
Yes

Amoral world?
Yes

Both sides evil?
More or less.

In my layman's opinion, "I Must Scream" looks like a perfect fit. The
only possible quibble is that it's not novel length. Only the OP knows
for sure if it fits and if they want to pick that nit.

Thank you,

--
Don Kuenz KB7RPU
p***@gmail.com
2017-06-11 22:14:10 UTC
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Post by a***@gmail.com
I would like to read more realistic and pessimistic SF. In which evil triumphs. In reality, modelled as a game, most sides are evil. Thus it is more realistic for evil to triumph. It is hard to compete in an amoral world, with a "perfectly good" strategy. It would be interesting to read something where both, or all, sides are evil.
Google "teen dystopias" and you'll find enough to last a lifetime.

Iirc, you live outside the US, but current US SFF TV is astonishingly depressing and dark.

Pt
Dorothy J Heydt
2017-06-12 02:06:45 UTC
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Post by a***@gmail.com
I would like to read more realistic and pessimistic SF. In which evil
triumphs. In reality, modelled as a game, most sides are evil. Thus it
is more realistic for evil to triumph. It is hard to compete in an
amoral world, with a "perfectly good" strategy. It would be interesting
to read something where both, or all, sides are evil.
Google "teen dystopias" and you'll find enough to last a lifetime.
Iirc, you live outside the US, but current US SFF TV is astonishingly depressing and dark.
Since its target audience is ... teenagers.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Bill Gill
2017-06-12 13:22:16 UTC
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Post by a***@gmail.com
I would like to read more realistic and pessimistic SF. In which evil triumphs. In reality, modelled as a game, most sides are evil. Thus it is more realistic for evil to triumph. It is hard to compete in an amoral world, with a "perfectly good" strategy. It would be interesting to read something where both, or all, sides are evil.
Abhinav Lal
Writer & Investor
"By denying the truth, you are denying yourself"
Not exactly what you are looking for, but I have, someplace
in my library, a book about a world where good has triumphed.
All evil has been extinguished. The problem is that the world
can't live with only good. The balance has been upset and
the world is about die from an excess of good. A few criminals
are left who set out to save the world by reintroducing evil.
Unfortunately I can't recall the name of the book, or the
author.

Bill
Ahasuerus
2017-06-12 13:30:42 UTC
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Post by Bill Gill
Post by a***@gmail.com
I would like to read more realistic and pessimistic SF. In which evil triumphs. In reality, modelled as a game, most sides are evil. Thus it is more realistic for evil to triumph. It is hard to compete in an amoral world, with a "perfectly good" strategy. It would be interesting to read something where both, or all, sides are evil.
Abhinav Lal
Writer & Investor
"By denying the truth, you are denying yourself"
Not exactly what you are looking for, but I have, someplace
in my library, a book about a world where good has triumphed.
All evil has been extinguished. The problem is that the world
can't live with only good. The balance has been upset and
the world is about die from an excess of good. A few criminals
are left who set out to save the world by reintroducing evil.
Unfortunately I can't recall the name of the book, or the
author.
Eve Forward's _Villains by Necessity_ (1995)?
Bill Gill
2017-06-12 16:47:24 UTC
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Post by Ahasuerus
Post by Bill Gill
Post by a***@gmail.com
I would like to read more realistic and pessimistic SF. In which evil triumphs. In reality, modelled as a game, most sides are evil. Thus it is more realistic for evil to triumph. It is hard to compete in an amoral world, with a "perfectly good" strategy. It would be interesting to read something where both, or all, sides are evil.
Abhinav Lal
Writer & Investor
"By denying the truth, you are denying yourself"
Not exactly what you are looking for, but I have, someplace
in my library, a book about a world where good has triumphed.
All evil has been extinguished. The problem is that the world
can't live with only good. The balance has been upset and
the world is about die from an excess of good. A few criminals
are left who set out to save the world by reintroducing evil.
Unfortunately I can't recall the name of the book, or the
author.
Eve Forward's _Villains by Necessity_ (1995)?
Yes, That's it.

Bill
Dorothy J Heydt
2017-06-12 14:30:44 UTC
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Post by a***@gmail.com
Post by a***@gmail.com
I would like to read more realistic and pessimistic SF. In which evil
triumphs. In reality, modelled as a game, most sides are evil. Thus it
is more realistic for evil to triumph. It is hard to compete in an
amoral world, with a "perfectly good" strategy. It would be interesting
to read something where both, or all, sides are evil.
Post by a***@gmail.com
Abhinav Lal
Writer & Investor
"By denying the truth, you are denying yourself"
Not exactly what you are looking for, but I have, someplace
in my library, a book about a world where good has triumphed.
All evil has been extinguished. The problem is that the world
can't live with only good. The balance has been upset and
the world is about die from an excess of good. A few criminals
are left who set out to save the world by reintroducing evil.
Unfortunately I can't recall the name of the book, or the
author.
Well, it's not the one you're describing, but Caroline
Stevermer's _A College of Magics_ has a similar concept: a few
generations back someone attempted to banish evil from the world,
and tore a rift between universes which her granddaughter must
now mend.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
David Johnston
2017-06-12 21:03:53 UTC
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Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by a***@gmail.com
Post by a***@gmail.com
I would like to read more realistic and pessimistic SF. In which evil
triumphs. In reality, modelled as a game, most sides are evil. Thus it
is more realistic for evil to triumph. It is hard to compete in an
amoral world, with a "perfectly good" strategy. It would be interesting
to read something where both, or all, sides are evil.
Post by a***@gmail.com
Abhinav Lal
Writer & Investor
"By denying the truth, you are denying yourself"
Not exactly what you are looking for, but I have, someplace
in my library, a book about a world where good has triumphed.
All evil has been extinguished. The problem is that the world
can't live with only good. The balance has been upset and
the world is about die from an excess of good. A few criminals
are left who set out to save the world by reintroducing evil.
Unfortunately I can't recall the name of the book, or the
author.
Well, it's not the one you're describing, but Caroline
Stevermer's _A College of Magics_ has a similar concept: a few
generations back someone attempted to banish evil from the world,
and tore a rift between universes which her granddaughter must
now mend.
There was a silly cartoon with a spine-chilling ending where the boss of the heroines put them out of business by ending the human genetic capacity for "evil". All of humanity mentally neutered forever. Come to think of it Agatha Christie did the same thing in one of her books by removing the human capacity for violence with an sfnal plot device. That was evil that thought it was good triumphing.
Kevrob
2017-06-12 21:23:54 UTC
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Post by David Johnston
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by a***@gmail.com
Post by a***@gmail.com
I would like to read more realistic and pessimistic SF. In which evil
triumphs. In reality, modelled as a game, most sides are evil. Thus it
is more realistic for evil to triumph. It is hard to compete in an
amoral world, with a "perfectly good" strategy. It would be interesting
to read something where both, or all, sides are evil.
Post by a***@gmail.com
Abhinav Lal
Writer & Investor
"By denying the truth, you are denying yourself"
Not exactly what you are looking for, but I have, someplace
in my library, a book about a world where good has triumphed.
All evil has been extinguished. The problem is that the world
can't live with only good. The balance has been upset and
the world is about die from an excess of good. A few criminals
are left who set out to save the world by reintroducing evil.
Unfortunately I can't recall the name of the book, or the
author.
Well, it's not the one you're describing, but Caroline
Stevermer's _A College of Magics_ has a similar concept: a few
generations back someone attempted to banish evil from the world,
and tore a rift between universes which her granddaughter must
now mend.
There was a silly cartoon with a spine-chilling ending where the boss of the heroines put them out of business by ending the human genetic capacity for "evil". All of humanity mentally neutered forever. Come to think of it Agatha Christie did the same thing in one of her books by removing the human capacity for violence with an sfnal plot device. That was evil that thought it was good triumphing.
That was "Passenger to Frankfurt" 1970:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Passenger_to_Frankfurt

Same year as Edmund Cooper's "Son of Kronk" aka "Kronk"!

http://www.isfdb.org/cgi-bin/pl.cgi?225741

"Son of Kronk" had an aggression-killing symptom spread by
a venereal disease, whose other symptom was horniness unto
chronic promiscuity. Hell of a disease vector.

http://www.trashfiction.co.uk/kronk.html

Kevin R
Dorothy J Heydt
2017-06-13 00:52:57 UTC
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Post by David Johnston
Post by David Johnston
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by a***@gmail.com
Post by a***@gmail.com
I would like to read more realistic and pessimistic SF. In which evil
triumphs. In reality, modelled as a game, most sides are evil. Thus it
is more realistic for evil to triumph. It is hard to compete in an
amoral world, with a "perfectly good" strategy. It would be interesting
to read something where both, or all, sides are evil.
Post by a***@gmail.com
Abhinav Lal
Writer & Investor
"By denying the truth, you are denying yourself"
Not exactly what you are looking for, but I have, someplace
in my library, a book about a world where good has triumphed.
All evil has been extinguished. The problem is that the world
can't live with only good. The balance has been upset and
the world is about die from an excess of good. A few criminals
are left who set out to save the world by reintroducing evil.
Unfortunately I can't recall the name of the book, or the
author.
Well, it's not the one you're describing, but Caroline
Stevermer's _A College of Magics_ has a similar concept: a few
generations back someone attempted to banish evil from the world,
and tore a rift between universes which her granddaughter must
now mend.
There was a silly cartoon with a spine-chilling ending where the boss
of the heroines put them out of business by ending the human genetic
capacity for "evil". All of humanity mentally neutered forever. Come
to think of it Agatha Christie did the same thing in one of her books by
removing the human capacity for violence with an sfnal plot device.
That was evil that thought it was good triumphing.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Passenger_to_Frankfurt
Okay, thanks. I shall look it up.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
David Johnston
2017-06-13 02:11:14 UTC
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Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by David Johnston
Post by David Johnston
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Post by a***@gmail.com
I would like to read more realistic and pessimistic SF. In which evil
triumphs. In reality, modelled as a game, most sides are evil. Thus it
is more realistic for evil to triumph. It is hard to compete in an
amoral world, with a "perfectly good" strategy. It would be interesting
to read something where both, or all, sides are evil.
Post by a***@gmail.com
Abhinav Lal
Writer & Investor
"By denying the truth, you are denying yourself"
Not exactly what you are looking for, but I have, someplace
in my library, a book about a world where good has triumphed.
All evil has been extinguished. The problem is that the world
can't live with only good. The balance has been upset and
the world is about die from an excess of good. A few criminals
are left who set out to save the world by reintroducing evil.
Unfortunately I can't recall the name of the book, or the
author.
Well, it's not the one you're describing, but Caroline
Stevermer's _A College of Magics_ has a similar concept: a few
generations back someone attempted to banish evil from the world,
and tore a rift between universes which her granddaughter must
now mend.
There was a silly cartoon with a spine-chilling ending where the boss
of the heroines put them out of business by ending the human genetic
capacity for "evil". All of humanity mentally neutered forever. Come
to think of it Agatha Christie did the same thing in one of her books by
removing the human capacity for violence with an sfnal plot device.
That was evil that thought it was good triumphing.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Passenger_to_Frankfurt
Okay, thanks. I shall look it up.
As I recall it wasn't Christie at her best. But then she was 80 and wanted those kids to get off her lawn.
David Johnston
2017-06-13 02:09:28 UTC
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Post by Kevrob
Post by David Johnston
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by a***@gmail.com
Post by a***@gmail.com
I would like to read more realistic and pessimistic SF. In which evil
triumphs. In reality, modelled as a game, most sides are evil. Thus it
is more realistic for evil to triumph. It is hard to compete in an
amoral world, with a "perfectly good" strategy. It would be interesting
to read something where both, or all, sides are evil.
Post by a***@gmail.com
Abhinav Lal
Writer & Investor
"By denying the truth, you are denying yourself"
Not exactly what you are looking for, but I have, someplace
in my library, a book about a world where good has triumphed.
All evil has been extinguished. The problem is that the world
can't live with only good. The balance has been upset and
the world is about die from an excess of good. A few criminals
are left who set out to save the world by reintroducing evil.
Unfortunately I can't recall the name of the book, or the
author.
Well, it's not the one you're describing, but Caroline
Stevermer's _A College of Magics_ has a similar concept: a few
generations back someone attempted to banish evil from the world,
and tore a rift between universes which her granddaughter must
now mend.
There was a silly cartoon with a spine-chilling ending where the boss of the heroines put them out of business by ending the human genetic capacity for "evil". All of humanity mentally neutered forever. Come to think of it Agatha Christie did the same thing in one of her books by removing the human capacity for violence with an sfnal plot device. That was evil that thought it was good triumphing.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Passenger_to_Frankfurt
Hunh. I guess I didn't remember the ending so well. Well it has been a lot of years.
Dorothy J Heydt
2017-06-13 00:52:21 UTC
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Post by David Johnston
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by a***@gmail.com
Post by a***@gmail.com
I would like to read more realistic and pessimistic SF. In which evil
triumphs. In reality, modelled as a game, most sides are evil. Thus it
is more realistic for evil to triumph. It is hard to compete in an
amoral world, with a "perfectly good" strategy. It would be interesting
to read something where both, or all, sides are evil.
Post by a***@gmail.com
Abhinav Lal
Writer & Investor
"By denying the truth, you are denying yourself"
Not exactly what you are looking for, but I have, someplace
in my library, a book about a world where good has triumphed.
All evil has been extinguished. The problem is that the world
can't live with only good. The balance has been upset and
the world is about die from an excess of good. A few criminals
are left who set out to save the world by reintroducing evil.
Unfortunately I can't recall the name of the book, or the
author.
Well, it's not the one you're describing, but Caroline
Stevermer's _A College of Magics_ has a similar concept: a few
generations back someone attempted to banish evil from the world,
and tore a rift between universes which her granddaughter must
now mend.
There was a silly cartoon with a spine-chilling ending where the boss of
the heroines put them out of business by ending the human genetic
capacity for "evil". All of humanity mentally neutered forever. Come
to think of it Agatha Christie did the same thing in one of her books by
removing the human capacity for violence with an sfnal plot device.
That was evil that thought it was good triumphing.
Can you provide the title of this book? It doesn't sound like
any Christie I've ever read, and I *thought* I had read them all.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
David DeLaney
2017-06-12 13:47:21 UTC
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I would like to read more realistic and pessimistic SF. In which evil
triumphs. In reality, modelled as a game, most sides are evil. Thus it is
more realistic for evil to triumph. It is hard to compete in an amoral
world, with a "perfectly good" strategy. It would be interesting to read
something where both, or all, sides are evil.
Louise Cooper has a set of trilogies where Law and its gods have been ruling
the world for Long Enough Now, and it's time for Chaos to make its reappearance
and conquer and supplant them. The inverse of the usual fantasy god-changeover
situation. Chaos is not specifically Evil, but many of the ceremonies involved
in its worship have a definite not-at-all-good element. On the other hand, it
turns out the defending forces of Law aren't exactly goody-two-shoes themselves
... okay, checking, it was a trilogy, a sequel trilogy, and a prequel trilogy,
though good luck finding any of them these days:

The Initiate, The Outcast, The Master;
The Deceiver, The Pretender, The Avenger;
^Star Ascendant, ^Eclipse, ^Moonset

Dave, my library contains many odd things from decades past
--
\/David DeLaney posting thru EarthLink - "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
gatekeeper.vic.com/~dbd - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.
Default User
2017-06-12 17:37:02 UTC
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Post by David DeLaney
Louise Cooper has a set of trilogies where Law and its gods have been ruling
the world for Long Enough Now, and it's time for Chaos to make its reappearance
... okay, checking, it was a trilogy, a sequel trilogy, and a prequel trilogy,
though good luck finding any of them these days
I'm not sure why people say that so often. Something has be really obscure not to be available from used book sources. I think they're all here, although I didn't check off all nine titles in the many pages of results for the author:

<https://www.abebooks.com/servlet/SearchResults?sts=t&an=Louise+Cooper>

Most are around four bucks with shipping.


Brian
Moriarty
2017-06-13 03:00:29 UTC
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Post by David DeLaney
Louise Cooper has a set of trilogies where Law and its gods have been ruling
the world for Long Enough Now, and it's time for Chaos to make its reappearance
... okay, checking, it was a trilogy, a sequel trilogy, and a prequel trilogy,
though good luck finding any of them these days
<https://www.abebooks.com/servlet/SearchResults?sts=t&an=Louise+Cooper>
Most are around four bucks with shipping.
They've also been recently re-published by <googles> Mundania Press. Oddly, they'll sell you a pdf version of the books but NOT a mobi or epub.

-Moriarty
Ted Nolan <tednolan>
2017-06-13 03:26:47 UTC
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Post by David DeLaney
Post by Default User
Post by David DeLaney
Louise Cooper has a set of trilogies where Law and its gods have been ruling
the world for Long Enough Now, and it's time for Chaos to make its
reappearance
Post by Default User
Post by David DeLaney
... okay, checking, it was a trilogy, a sequel trilogy, and a
prequel trilogy,
Post by Default User
Post by David DeLaney
though good luck finding any of them these days
I'm not sure why people say that so often. Something has be really
obscure not to be available from used book sources. I think they're all
here, although I didn't check off all nine titles in the many pages of
Post by Default User
<https://www.abebooks.com/servlet/SearchResults?sts=t&an=Louise+Cooper>
Most are around four bucks with shipping.
They've also been recently re-published by <googles> Mundania Press.
Oddly, they'll sell you a pdf version of the books but NOT a mobi or
epub.
-Moriarty
That could be if they just scanned the old editions, I suppose.
--
------
columbiaclosings.com
What's not in Columbia anymore..
Bill Gill
2017-06-13 12:03:10 UTC
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Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Post by David DeLaney
Post by Default User
Post by David DeLaney
Louise Cooper has a set of trilogies where Law and its gods have been ruling
the world for Long Enough Now, and it's time for Chaos to make its
reappearance
Post by Default User
Post by David DeLaney
... okay, checking, it was a trilogy, a sequel trilogy, and a
prequel trilogy,
Post by Default User
Post by David DeLaney
though good luck finding any of them these days
I'm not sure why people say that so often. Something has be really
obscure not to be available from used book sources. I think they're all
here, although I didn't check off all nine titles in the many pages of
Post by Default User
<https://www.abebooks.com/servlet/SearchResults?sts=t&an=Louise+Cooper>
Most are around four bucks with shipping.
They've also been recently re-published by <googles> Mundania Press.
Oddly, they'll sell you a pdf version of the books but NOT a mobi or
epub.
-Moriarty
That could be if they just scanned the old editions, I suppose.
Converting to an epub is a long process. You have to actually
edit the text because even the very best OCR makes a lot of
errors. I have been scanning some old books in and it takes
me about 2 weeks to do the editing. Even then there are some
errors.

Bill
Dorothy J Heydt
2017-06-13 15:02:51 UTC
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Post by David DeLaney
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Post by David DeLaney
Louise Cooper has a set of trilogies where Law and its gods have been ruling
the world for Long Enough Now, and it's time for Chaos to make its
reappearance
Post by Default User
Post by David DeLaney
... okay, checking, it was a trilogy, a sequel trilogy, and a
prequel trilogy,
Post by Default User
Post by David DeLaney
though good luck finding any of them these days
I'm not sure why people say that so often. Something has be really
obscure not to be available from used book sources. I think they're all
here, although I didn't check off all nine titles in the many pages of
Post by Default User
<https://www.abebooks.com/servlet/SearchResults?sts=t&an=Louise+Cooper>
Most are around four bucks with shipping.
They've also been recently re-published by <googles> Mundania Press.
Oddly, they'll sell you a pdf version of the books but NOT a mobi or
epub.
Maybe they couldn't figure out the coding Maybe they didn't ask
the wise entities of USENET? :)
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Butch Malahide
2017-06-13 05:05:34 UTC
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I would like to read more realistic and pessimistic SF. In which evil triumphs.
From David Drake's review of _The Angry Planet_ by John Keir Cross:

The really strange aspect–for a children’s book–is the theme. The
Angry Planet is a clear story of the battle between Good and Evil. Evil
wins.

The Terrible Ones attack the Beautiful People’s city. The Beautiful
People warriors defend themselves bravely but are overwhelmed. The
humans watch as a Terrible One in an act of pointless cruelty breaks
in half a young female of the Beautiful People whom they’ve
befriended. The spear of the chief of the Beautiful People slashes the
leader of the Terrible Ones, a damaging but not fatal blow. The
Terrible One leaps high and comes down on the chief, smashing him
flat. During the battle a volcano erupts; the lava must inevitably destroy anything the Terrible Ones leave.

The humans escape with the only survivor of the Beautiful People’s
community, a youth who’s a friend of the children. He sickens and
dies on the voyage back; when the corpse starts to decay, they have
to put it out the airlock. It floats outside the spaceship’s window all
the way to Earth, where the children are forced to watch it burn up in
the atmosphere.

http://david-drake.com/2000/the-angry-planet/
Jack Bohn
2017-06-13 14:53:53 UTC
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Post by Butch Malahide
Post by a***@gmail.com
I would like to read more realistic and pessimistic SF. In which evil triumphs.
The really strange aspect–for a children’s book–is the theme. The
Angry Planet is a clear story of the battle between Good and Evil. Evil
wins.
The Terrible Ones attack the Beautiful People’s city. The Beautiful
People warriors defend themselves bravely but are overwhelmed. The
humans watch as a Terrible One in an act of pointless cruelty breaks
in half a young female of the Beautiful People whom they’ve
befriended. The spear of the chief of the Beautiful People slashes the
leader of the Terrible Ones, a damaging but not fatal blow. The
Terrible One leaps high and comes down on the chief, smashing him
flat. During the battle a volcano erupts; the lava must inevitably destroy anything the Terrible Ones leave.
http://david-drake.com/2000/the-angry-planet/
The volcano brings to mind any number of Saturday Matinee movies where a hidden land is discovered, only to be destroyed by volcano at the end -- with or without slave revolt, civil war, or invasion. The popularity of this ending was influenced by the availability of volcano footage from One Million B.C. (1940), but is present in written material as well, though most don't rub our faces in it as much as John Keir Cross does.
--
-Jack
Ahasuerus
2017-06-13 17:26:17 UTC
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On Tuesday, June 13, 2017 at 10:53:58 AM UTC-4, Jack Bohn wrote:
[snip]
Post by Jack Bohn
The volcano brings to mind any number of Saturday Matinee movies where
a hidden land is discovered, only to be destroyed by volcano at the
end -- with or without slave revolt, civil war, or invasion. The
popularity of this ending was influenced by the availability of
volcano footage from One Million B.C. (1940), but is present in
written material as well, though most don't rub our faces in it as
much as John Keir Cross does.
Not counting variations on the Atlantis theme, the earliest occurrence
of this scenario in SF (that I can think of) was in Jules Verne's _L'Île
mystérieuse_ (1874). Anything earlier than that?
David DeLaney
2017-06-14 13:42:02 UTC
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Post by Ahasuerus
[snip]
Post by Jack Bohn
The volcano brings to mind any number of Saturday Matinee movies where
a hidden land is discovered, only to be destroyed by volcano at the
end -- with or without slave revolt, civil war, or invasion. The
popularity of this ending was influenced by the availability of
volcano footage from One Million B.C. (1940), but is present in
written material as well, though most don't rub our faces in it as
much as John Keir Cross does.
Not counting variations on the Atlantis theme, the earliest occurrence
of this scenario in SF (that I can think of) was in Jules Verne's _L'Île
mystérieuse_ (1874). Anything earlier than that?
... his _Journey to the Center of the Earth_ fits, and was ten years earlier.

Dave, surprised, etc.
--
\/David DeLaney posting thru EarthLink - "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
gatekeeper.vic.com/~dbd - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.
Ahasuerus
2017-06-14 17:02:14 UTC
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Post by David DeLaney
Post by Ahasuerus
[snip]
Post by Jack Bohn
The volcano brings to mind any number of Saturday Matinee movies where
a hidden land is discovered, only to be destroyed by volcano at the
end -- with or without slave revolt, civil war, or invasion. The
popularity of this ending was influenced by the availability of
volcano footage from One Million B.C. (1940), but is present in
written material as well, though most don't rub our faces in it as
much as John Keir Cross does.
Not counting variations on the Atlantis theme, the earliest
occurrence of this scenario in SF (that I can think of) was in Jules
Verne's _L'Île mystérieuse_ (1874). Anything earlier than that?
... his _Journey to the Center of the Earth_ fits, and was ten years earlier.
That's a good point. I was thinking of an island, but a "hidden land"
doesn't have to be an island.
Dorothy J Heydt
2017-06-13 15:07:26 UTC
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Post by a***@gmail.com
Post by a***@gmail.com
I would like to read more realistic and pessimistic SF. In which evil
triumphs.
The really strange aspect–for a children’s book–is the theme. The
Angry Planet is a clear story of the battle between Good and Evil. Evil
wins.
The Terrible Ones attack the Beautiful People’s city. The Beautiful
People warriors defend themselves bravely but are overwhelmed. The
humans watch as a Terrible One in an act of pointless cruelty breaks
in half a young female of the Beautiful People whom they’ve
befriended. The spear of the chief of the Beautiful People slashes the
leader of the Terrible Ones, a damaging but not fatal blow. The
Terrible One leaps high and comes down on the chief, smashing him
flat. During the battle a volcano erupts; the lava must inevitably
destroy anything the Terrible Ones leave.
The humans escape with the only survivor of the Beautiful People’s
community, a youth who’s a friend of the children. He sickens and
dies on the voyage back; when the corpse starts to decay, they have
to put it out the airlock. It floats outside the spaceship’s window all
the way to Earth, where the children are forced to watch it burn up in
the atmosphere.
http://david-drake.com/2000/the-angry-planet/
Oh, yes, I remember that one. The Beautiful People looked like
(very large) green onions.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Wolffan
2017-06-29 22:04:26 UTC
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I would like to read more realistic and pessimistic SF. In which evil
triumphs. In reality, modelled as a game, most sides are evil. Thus it is
more realistic for evil to triumph. It is hard to compete in an amoral world,
with a "perfectly good" strategy. It would be interesting to read something
where both, or all, sides are evil.
Abhinav Lal
Writer & Investor
"By denying the truth, you are denying yourself"
S.M. Stirling has done this at least twice. In the Draka trilogy, the
mustache-twirling Eeeeevil Draka win, mostly ‘cause the author wanted them
to and the other side wasn’t quite as evil (hint: note who used multiple
nuke-armed submarine-launched cruise missiles to step all over Japan in their
rather different version of WWII) and are _stupid_ on top of it. In the
on-going Emberverse books Eeevil even bigger and badder than the Draka is
roaming the world. (Kim Jong-il, our current Little Kim’s daddy, survived
the Event to become a cannibal god-king; Charlie Jug-Ears in England is a
very naughty boy indeed; and the Big Bad of the first few Emberverse books,
Norman the Nuts, wins in the end, his descendants end up ruling much of North
America west of the Mississippi and extend tentacles as far as the Atlantic
and Japan, coming into contact with Dear Kimmie’s little playmates.) He’s
done it three times if you count _Conquistador_, in which one good ol’ boy
from Virginia accidentally finds a way to get to a slightly different North
America, one where no pesky white boys had ever crossed the Atlantic and
where for reasons of plot there weren’t any Chinese to cross the Pacific.
He sets up, as one character puts it ‘white boy heaven’ (and no, it’s
not a complement) and steps on the successors to the Aztecs (who aren’t
nearly as, umm, nice guys as their ancestors, no, no no...) and is the Good
(well, not so bad) Guy operating against Mafiosi (Sicilian and Russian
varieties combined) and unreformed Waffen SS (from a unit which, again to
quote one character, had an ‘unsavory reputation even for SS’ plus Aztec
successors who want revenge. Plus the odd Afrikaner nut-job, just to cover
all the Let’s See How Many Buttons We Can Push bases. Make that four times
if you count the Taint in the Blood books. I’ll just say that the Bad Guys
are vampires (and were-whatevers and demons and lots more, the True Source of
all legends about things that go bump in the night) and the <cough> Good
Guys</cough> figure out that the Bad Guys are really vulnerable to ionizing
radiation and light up the odd nuke to get rid of them. Pity if the Bad Guys
happen to be sitting in large cities at the time. omelets, eggs, and all
that...
Stirling appears to like having Evil win, almost as much as he likes buckets
and buckets and buckets of blood.
Gene Wirchenko
2017-06-30 02:46:15 UTC
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Post by Wolffan
I would like to read more realistic and pessimistic SF. In which evil
triumphs. In reality, modelled as a game, most sides are evil. Thus it is
more realistic for evil to triumph. It is hard to compete in an amoral world,
with a "perfectly good" strategy. It would be interesting to read something
where both, or all, sides are evil.
Abhinav Lal
Writer & Investor
"By denying the truth, you are denying yourself"
S.M. Stirling has done this at least twice. In the Draka trilogy, the
There is a fourth book, _Drakon_.
Post by Wolffan
mustache-twirling Eeeeevil Draka win, mostly ‘cause the author wanted them
to and the other side wasn’t quite as evil (hint: note who used multiple
nuke-armed submarine-launched cruise missiles to step all over Japan in their
rather different version of WWII) and are _stupid_ on top of it. In the
Regardless, I enjoyed the Draka novels.

[snip]

Sincerely,

Gene Wirchenko
Wolffan
2017-07-01 01:26:33 UTC
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Post by Gene Wirchenko
Post by Wolffan
I would like to read more realistic and pessimistic SF. In which evil
triumphs. In reality, modelled as a game, most sides are evil. Thus it is
more realistic for evil to triumph. It is hard to compete in an amoral world,
with a "perfectly good" strategy. It would be interesting to read something
where both, or all, sides are evil.
Abhinav Lal
Writer & Investor
"By denying the truth, you are denying yourself"
S.M. Stirling has done this at least twice. In the Draka trilogy, the
There is a fourth book, _Drakon_.
it’s kinda off to one side. For one thing, the alleged Good Guys aren’t
(quite) as stupid in that one.
Post by Gene Wirchenko
Post by Wolffan
mustache-twirling Eeeeevil Draka win, mostly ‘cause the author wanted them
to and the other side wasn’t quite as evil (hint: note who used multiple
nuke-armed submarine-launched cruise missiles to step all over Japan in their
rather different version of WWII) and are _stupid_ on top of it. In the
Regardless, I enjoyed the Draka novels.
you know that the Draka are supposed to be Eeeevil when they’re up against
Nazis _and_ Stalinists and you’re pulling for the Nazis and Stalinists. The
Draka were nun-raping, genocidal, slaving, arrogant, racist, bastards. In
short, Eeeevil.
Post by Gene Wirchenko
[snip]
Sincerely,
Gene Wirchenko
J. Clarke
2017-07-01 01:38:34 UTC
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Post by Gene Wirchenko
Post by Wolffan
I would like to read more realistic and pessimistic SF. In which evil
triumphs. In reality, modelled as a game, most sides are evil. Thus it is
more realistic for evil to triumph. It is hard to compete in an amoral world,
with a "perfectly good" strategy. It would be interesting to read something
where both, or all, sides are evil.
Abhinav Lal
Writer & Investor
"By denying the truth, you are denying yourself"
S.M. Stirling has done this at least twice. In the Draka trilogy, the
There is a fourth book, _Drakon_.
it?s kinda off to one side. For one thing, the alleged Good Guys aren?t
(quite) as stupid in that one.
Post by Gene Wirchenko
Post by Wolffan
mustache-twirling Eeeeevil Draka win, mostly ?cause the author wanted them
to and the other side wasn?t quite as evil (hint: note who used multiple
nuke-armed submarine-launched cruise missiles to step all over Japan in their
rather different version of WWII) and are _stupid_ on top of it. In the
Regardless, I enjoyed the Draka novels.
you know that the Draka are supposed to be Eeeevil when they?re up against
Nazis _and_ Stalinists and you?re pulling for the Nazis and Stalinists. The
Draka were nun-raping, genocidal, slaving, arrogant, racist, bastards. In
short, Eeeevil.
I dunno--the nun gave as good as she got and they seemed to admire her for
it.

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