Discussion:
250 Times as Much as Gold
(too old to reply)
Quadibloc
2017-02-26 20:54:27 UTC
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Uranium, even before it undergoes isotopic separation, is worth more than gold.

And there is 250 times as much of it in seawater as there is gold - and we all
remember our science textbooks telling us that there would be enough gold in the
world's oceans to make everyone wealthy if it could be accessed.

I remember seeing the figure in a table of the composition of seawater even before
I read an SF story about an inventor who had found a way to extract it.

Anyways...

http://topexaminer.com/2017/02/26/extraction-of-uranium-from-seawater-could-be-possible-soon/

it is becoming fact.

John Savard
William Hyde
2017-02-26 21:29:19 UTC
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Post by Quadibloc
Uranium, even before it undergoes isotopic separation, is worth more than gold.
And there is 250 times as much of it in seawater as there is gold - and we all
remember our science textbooks telling us that there would be enough gold in the
world's oceans to make everyone wealthy if it could be accessed.
I remember seeing the figure in a table of the composition of seawater even before
I read an SF story about an inventor who had found a way to extract it.
It was "The Man Who Ploughed the Sea", one of Clarke's White Hart tales.

William Hyde
Dorothy J Heydt
2017-02-26 21:31:33 UTC
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Post by Quadibloc
Uranium, even before it undergoes isotopic separation, is worth more than gold.
And there is 250 times as much of it in seawater as there is gold - and we all
remember our science textbooks telling us that there would be enough gold in the
world's oceans to make everyone wealthy if it could be accessed.
Except, of course, that if everyone had enough gold to be
wealthy-by-current-standards-when-everyone-doesn't-have-that-
much-gold, the gold would become practically worthless.

Also we don't want everybody to have that much uranium.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Robert Carnegie
2017-02-26 22:23:11 UTC
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Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Quadibloc
Uranium, even before it undergoes isotopic separation, is worth more than gold.
And there is 250 times as much of it in seawater as there is gold - and we all
remember our science textbooks telling us that there would be enough gold in the
world's oceans to make everyone wealthy if it could be accessed.
Except, of course, that if everyone had enough gold to be
wealthy-by-current-standards-when-everyone-doesn't-have-that-
much-gold, the gold would become practically worthless.
Also we don't want everybody to have that much uranium.
How about using gold instead of uranium in
the ordinary missiles that are fired at the
enemy's homes and personal possessions?
J. Clarke
2017-02-26 22:53:35 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
In article <5d436c8c-88dd-44fb-9779-
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Quadibloc
Uranium, even before it undergoes isotopic separation, is worth more than gold.
And there is 250 times as much of it in seawater as there is gold - and we all
remember our science textbooks telling us that there would be enough gold in the
world's oceans to make everyone wealthy if it could be accessed.
Except, of course, that if everyone had enough gold to be
wealthy-by-current-standards-when-everyone-doesn't-have-that-
much-gold, the gold would become practically worthless.
Also we don't want everybody to have that much uranium.
How about using gold instead of uranium in
the ordinary missiles that are fired at the
enemy's homes and personal possessions?
What missiles are those?
Robert Carnegie
2017-02-27 00:02:12 UTC
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Post by J. Clarke
In article <5d436c8c-88dd-44fb-9779-
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Quadibloc
Uranium, even before it undergoes isotopic separation, is worth more than gold.
And there is 250 times as much of it in seawater as there is gold - and we all
remember our science textbooks telling us that there would be enough gold in the
world's oceans to make everyone wealthy if it could be accessed.
Except, of course, that if everyone had enough gold to be
wealthy-by-current-standards-when-everyone-doesn't-have-that-
much-gold, the gold would become practically worthless.
Also we don't want everybody to have that much uranium.
How about using gold instead of uranium in
the ordinary missiles that are fired at the
enemy's homes and personal possessions?
What missiles are those?
You appear to have just mentioned "kinetic
penetrators". Gold is very heavy and it should
do just as well as so-called depleted uranium
(which AIUI still has quite a lot of radioactive
uranium in it).
J. Clarke
2017-02-27 00:22:44 UTC
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In article <0b1ab5dd-2d4b-4fb0-8bda-5878a759b976
@googlegroups.com>, ***@excite.com
says...
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by J. Clarke
In article <5d436c8c-88dd-44fb-9779-
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Quadibloc
Uranium, even before it undergoes isotopic separation, is worth more than gold.
And there is 250 times as much of it in seawater as there is gold - and we all
remember our science textbooks telling us that there would be enough
gold in the
world's oceans to make everyone wealthy if it could be accessed.
Except, of course, that if everyone had enough gold to be
wealthy-by-current-standards-when-everyone-doesn't-have-that-
much-gold, the gold would become practically worthless.
Also we don't want everybody to have that much uranium.
How about using gold instead of uranium in
the ordinary missiles that are fired at the
enemy's homes and personal possessions?
What missiles are those?
You appear to have just mentioned "kinetic
penetrators". Gold is very heavy and it should
do just as well as so-called depleted uranium
(which AIUI still has quite a lot of radioactive
uranium in it).
What of it?

What do kinetic penetrators have to do with
"missiles that are fired as the enemy's homes
and personal possessions"?
Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
2017-02-26 23:32:01 UTC
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Raw Message
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by J. Clarke
In article <5d436c8c-88dd-44fb-9779-
On Sunday, 26 February 2017 22:00:05 UTC, Dorothy J Heydt
Post by J. Clarke
In article
Post by Quadibloc
Uranium, even before it undergoes isotopic separation, is worth more than gold.
And there is 250 times as much of it in seawater as there
is gold - and we all remember our science textbooks
telling us that there would be enough gold in the
world's oceans to make everyone wealthy if it could be
accessed.
Except, of course, that if everyone had enough gold to be
wealthy-by-current-standards-when-everyone-doesn't-have-that
- much-gold, the gold would become practically worthless.
Also we don't want everybody to have that much uranium.
How about using gold instead of uranium in
the ordinary missiles that are fired at the
enemy's homes and personal possessions?
What missiles are those?
You appear to have just mentioned "kinetic
penetrators". Gold is very heavy and it should
do just as well as so-called depleted uranium
(which AIUI still has quite a lot of radioactive
uranium in it).
U-238 is about as radioactive as you and I are. It's far more
dangerous as a heavy metal poison than anything else. The gamma ray
output is basically noise in the background radiation.
--
Terry Austin

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.
Quadibloc
2017-02-27 06:35:39 UTC
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Post by Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
U-238 is about as radioactive as you and I are. It's far more
dangerous as a heavy metal poison than anything else. The gamma ray
output is basically noise in the background radiation.
Yes, but it is still subject to regulatory control since it can easily be made
into Pu-239, which is fissionable.

John Savard
J. Clarke
2017-02-27 10:34:16 UTC
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In article <081fed13-dbdb-4701-a82d-
Post by Quadibloc
Post by Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
U-238 is about as radioactive as you and I are. It's far more
dangerous as a heavy metal poison than anything else. The gamma ray
output is basically noise in the background radiation.
Yes, but it is still subject to regulatory control since it can easily be made
into Pu-239, which is fissionable.
For certain values of "easily". You need a
working reactor to do the "making".
Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
2017-02-27 16:30:36 UTC
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Post by J. Clarke
In article <081fed13-dbdb-4701-a82d-
On Sunday, February 26, 2017 at 5:32:03 PM UTC-7, Gutless
Post by Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
U-238 is about as radioactive as you and I are. It's far more
dangerous as a heavy metal poison than anything else. The
gamma ray output is basically noise in the background
radiation.
Yes, but it is still subject to regulatory control since it can
easily be made into Pu-239, which is fissionable.
For certain values of "easily". You need a
working reactor to do the "making".
Well, you need a neutron source of sufficient density. As a practical
matter, yeah, a breeder reactor, but in theory, there are other ways.
--
Terry Austin

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.
Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
2017-02-27 16:29:35 UTC
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Raw Message
On Sunday, February 26, 2017 at 5:32:03 PM UTC-7, Gutless
Post by Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
U-238 is about as radioactive as you and I are. It's far more
dangerous as a heavy metal poison than anything else. The gamma
ray output is basically noise in the background radiation.
Yes, but it is still subject to regulatory control since it can
easily be made into Pu-239, which is fissionable.
John Savard
For values of "easily" the involve building a breeder reactor, I
suppose.
--
Terry Austin

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.
Dorothy J Heydt
2017-02-26 23:01:32 UTC
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Raw Message
Post by Quadibloc
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Quadibloc
Uranium, even before it undergoes isotopic separation, is worth more
than gold.
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Quadibloc
And there is 250 times as much of it in seawater as there is gold -
and we all
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Quadibloc
remember our science textbooks telling us that there would be enough gold in the
world's oceans to make everyone wealthy if it could be accessed.
Except, of course, that if everyone had enough gold to be
wealthy-by-current-standards-when-everyone-doesn't-have-that-
much-gold, the gold would become practically worthless.
Also we don't want everybody to have that much uranium.
How about using gold instead of uranium in
the ordinary missiles that are fired at the
enemy's homes and personal possessions?
How about not doing either?

ObSF: Jack Vance, "The Potters of Firsk," 1950. It's been years
since I read it, but IIRC a bad guy with a uranium-based bomb
goes to ground on a primitive planet, known for its beautiful
pottery. They figure him out and dispatch him; they then make
bone china from his bones and glaze it with a brilliant yellow
glaze made from the uranium.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
J. Clarke
2017-02-27 00:24:05 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Quadibloc
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Quadibloc
Uranium, even before it undergoes isotopic separation, is worth more
than gold.
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Quadibloc
And there is 250 times as much of it in seawater as there is gold -
and we all
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Quadibloc
remember our science textbooks telling us that there would be enough gold in the
world's oceans to make everyone wealthy if it could be accessed.
Except, of course, that if everyone had enough gold to be
wealthy-by-current-standards-when-everyone-doesn't-have-that-
much-gold, the gold would become practically worthless.
Also we don't want everybody to have that much uranium.
How about using gold instead of uranium in
the ordinary missiles that are fired at the
enemy's homes and personal possessions?
How about not doing either?
ObSF: Jack Vance, "The Potters of Firsk," 1950. It's been years
since I read it, but IIRC a bad guy with a uranium-based bomb
goes to ground on a primitive planet, known for its beautiful
pottery. They figure him out and dispatch him; they then make
bone china from his bones and glaze it with a brilliant yellow
glaze made from the uranium.
If you "do neither" then you make it an awful
lot harder to prevent the other guy from driving
his tank over you.
Cryptoengineer
2017-02-27 01:09:11 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Quadibloc
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Quadibloc
Uranium, even before it undergoes isotopic separation, is worth more
than gold.
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Quadibloc
And there is 250 times as much of it in seawater as there is gold -
and we all
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Quadibloc
remember our science textbooks telling us that there would be enough gold in the
world's oceans to make everyone wealthy if it could be accessed.
Except, of course, that if everyone had enough gold to be
wealthy-by-current-standards-when-everyone-doesn't-have-that-
much-gold, the gold would become practically worthless.
Also we don't want everybody to have that much uranium.
How about using gold instead of uranium in
the ordinary missiles that are fired at the
enemy's homes and personal possessions?
How about not doing either?
ObSF: Jack Vance, "The Potters of Firsk," 1950. It's been years
since I read it, but IIRC a bad guy with a uranium-based bomb
goes to ground on a primitive planet, known for its beautiful
pottery. They figure him out and dispatch him; they then make
bone china from his bones and glaze it with a brilliant yellow
glaze made from the uranium.
I wonder if Vance knew about Fiestaware:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiesta_(dinnerware)#Radioactive_glazes

pt
Dorothy J Heydt
2017-02-27 03:31:09 UTC
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Raw Message
Post by Cryptoengineer
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Quadibloc
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Quadibloc
Uranium, even before it undergoes isotopic separation, is worth more
than gold.
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Quadibloc
And there is 250 times as much of it in seawater as there is gold -
and we all
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Quadibloc
remember our science textbooks telling us that there would be enough gold in the
world's oceans to make everyone wealthy if it could be accessed.
Except, of course, that if everyone had enough gold to be
wealthy-by-current-standards-when-everyone-doesn't-have-that-
much-gold, the gold would become practically worthless.
Also we don't want everybody to have that much uranium.
How about using gold instead of uranium in
the ordinary missiles that are fired at the
enemy's homes and personal possessions?
How about not doing either?
ObSF: Jack Vance, "The Potters of Firsk," 1950. It's been years
since I read it, but IIRC a bad guy with a uranium-based bomb
goes to ground on a primitive planet, known for its beautiful
pottery. They figure him out and dispatch him; they then make
bone china from his bones and glaze it with a brilliant yellow
glaze made from the uranium.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiesta_(dinnerware)#Radioactive_glazes
Well, let's see. the company announced in 2011 that the product
had not been sold in the market for nearly forty years. That
would make the discontinuation 1961 or later. It's possible that
people in general, and Vance in particular, didn't know
Fiestaware was radioactive (to whatever degree) in 1950.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
2017-02-27 03:09:25 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Cryptoengineer
Post by J. Clarke
In article
On Sunday, 26 February 2017 22:00:05 UTC, Dorothy J Heydt
Post by J. Clarke
In article
Post by Quadibloc
Uranium, even before it undergoes isotopic separation, is
worth more
than gold.
Post by J. Clarke
Post by Quadibloc
And there is 250 times as much of it in seawater as there
is gold -
and we all
Post by J. Clarke
Post by Quadibloc
remember our science textbooks telling us that there would be enough gold in the
world's oceans to make everyone wealthy if it could be
accessed.
Except, of course, that if everyone had enough gold to be
wealthy-by-current-standards-when-everyone-doesn't-have-that-
much-gold, the gold would become practically worthless.
Also we don't want everybody to have that much uranium.
How about using gold instead of uranium in
the ordinary missiles that are fired at the
enemy's homes and personal possessions?
How about not doing either?
ObSF: Jack Vance, "The Potters of Firsk," 1950. It's been
years since I read it, but IIRC a bad guy with a uranium-based
bomb goes to ground on a primitive planet, known for its
beautiful pottery. They figure him out and dispatch him; they
then make bone china from his bones and glaze it with a
brilliant yellow glaze made from the uranium.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiesta_(dinnerware)#Radioactive_gla
zes
Well, let's see. the company announced in 2011 that the product
had not been sold in the market for nearly forty years. That
would make the discontinuation 1961 or later. It's possible
that people in general, and Vance in particular, didn't know
Fiestaware was radioactive (to whatever degree) in 1950.
Given that water infused with radium was legal, and believed not
only safe but theraputic, until 1928, that seems plausible to me.
--
Terry Austin

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.
J. Clarke
2017-02-27 10:41:47 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Cryptoengineer
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Quadibloc
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Quadibloc
Uranium, even before it undergoes isotopic separation, is worth more
than gold.
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Quadibloc
And there is 250 times as much of it in seawater as there is gold -
and we all
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Quadibloc
remember our science textbooks telling us that there would be enough
gold in the
world's oceans to make everyone wealthy if it could be accessed.
Except, of course, that if everyone had enough gold to be
wealthy-by-current-standards-when-everyone-doesn't-have-that-
much-gold, the gold would become practically worthless.
Also we don't want everybody to have that much uranium.
How about using gold instead of uranium in
the ordinary missiles that are fired at the
enemy's homes and personal possessions?
How about not doing either?
ObSF: Jack Vance, "The Potters of Firsk," 1950. It's been years
since I read it, but IIRC a bad guy with a uranium-based bomb
goes to ground on a primitive planet, known for its beautiful
pottery. They figure him out and dispatch him; they then make
bone china from his bones and glaze it with a brilliant yellow
glaze made from the uranium.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiesta_(dinnerware)#Radioactive_glazes
Well, let's see. the company announced in 2011 that the product
had not been sold in the market for nearly forty years. That
would make the discontinuation 1961 or later. It's possible that
people in general, and Vance in particular, didn't know
Fiestaware was radioactive (to whatever degree) in 1950.
Fiestaware isn't the only radioactive ceramic.
Uranium glass was a thing before WWII.
Gene Wirchenko
2017-02-27 04:21:41 UTC
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Raw Message
On Sun, 26 Feb 2017 23:01:32 GMT, ***@kithrup.com (Dorothy J
Heydt) wrote:

[snip]
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
ObSF: Jack Vance, "The Potters of Firsk," 1950. It's been years
since I read it, but IIRC a bad guy with a uranium-based bomb
goes to ground on a primitive planet, known for its beautiful
pottery. They figure him out and dispatch him; they then make
bone china from his bones and glaze it with a brilliant yellow
glaze made from the uranium.
Nope. A diplomat-in-training tries to rescue a local woman who
has been seized by the potters. The deal is that he produce a yellow
glaze. He does so using uranium. His boss objects and is the one who
gets potted.

Sincerely,

Gene Wirchenko
Dorothy J Heydt
2017-02-27 05:28:27 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Gene Wirchenko
[snip]
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
ObSF: Jack Vance, "The Potters of Firsk," 1950. It's been years
since I read it, but IIRC a bad guy with a uranium-based bomb
goes to ground on a primitive planet, known for its beautiful
pottery. They figure him out and dispatch him; they then make
bone china from his bones and glaze it with a brilliant yellow
glaze made from the uranium.
Nope. A diplomat-in-training tries to rescue a local woman who
has been seized by the potters. The deal is that he produce a yellow
glaze. He does so using uranium. His boss objects and is the one who
gets potted.
I sit corrected. As I said, it's been a long time.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Quadibloc
2017-02-27 06:50:02 UTC
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Raw Message
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
I sit corrected. As I said, it's been a long time.
What I remember from the story is that yellow pottery glaze was so important in
the alien culture that uranium making a better yellow color for it turned out to
be more socially disruptive to them than having the ability to make atomic bombs
would have been!

John Savard
David DeLaney
2017-02-27 08:30:16 UTC
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Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Except, of course, that if everyone had enough gold to be
wealthy-by-current-standards-when-everyone-doesn't-have-that-
much-gold, the gold would become practically worthless.
Also we don't want everybody to have that much uranium.
How about using gold instead of uranium in
the ordinary missiles that are fired at the
enemy's homes and personal possessions?
How about using uranium instead of gold in the circulating coinage? It'll
circulate a lot faster!

Dave, spot the ObSF
--
\/David DeLaney posting thru EarthLink - "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
gatekeeper.vic.com/~dbd - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.
Peter Trei
2017-02-27 14:13:19 UTC
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Raw Message
Post by David DeLaney
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Except, of course, that if everyone had enough gold to be
wealthy-by-current-standards-when-everyone-doesn't-have-that-
much-gold, the gold would become practically worthless.
Also we don't want everybody to have that much uranium.
How about using gold instead of uranium in
the ordinary missiles that are fired at the
enemy's homes and personal possessions?
How about using uranium instead of gold in the circulating coinage? It'll
circulate a lot faster!
I recall one not-very-serious story (Robert Forward???) in which currency
was made of U235, with the intent to discouraging hoarding. Get too much in
your vault, and Bad Things happen.

pt
Greg Goss
2017-02-27 16:16:39 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Peter Trei
Post by David DeLaney
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Except, of course, that if everyone had enough gold to be
wealthy-by-current-standards-when-everyone-doesn't-have-that-
much-gold, the gold would become practically worthless.
Also we don't want everybody to have that much uranium.
How about using gold instead of uranium in
the ordinary missiles that are fired at the
enemy's homes and personal possessions?
How about using uranium instead of gold in the circulating coinage? It'll
circulate a lot faster!
I recall one not-very-serious story (Robert Forward???) in which currency
was made of U235, with the intent to discouraging hoarding. Get too much in
your vault, and Bad Things happen.
I remember it as an Asimov super-short.
--
We are geeks. Resistance is voltage over current.
Robert Carnegie
2017-02-27 21:40:19 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Greg Goss
Post by Peter Trei
Post by David DeLaney
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Except, of course, that if everyone had enough gold to be
wealthy-by-current-standards-when-everyone-doesn't-have-that-
much-gold, the gold would become practically worthless.
Also we don't want everybody to have that much uranium.
How about using gold instead of uranium in
the ordinary missiles that are fired at the
enemy's homes and personal possessions?
How about using uranium instead of gold in the circulating coinage? It'll
circulate a lot faster!
I recall one not-very-serious story (Robert Forward???) in which currency
was made of U235, with the intent to discouraging hoarding. Get too much in
your vault, and Bad Things happen.
I remember it as an Asimov super-short.
I believe David had in mind an essay of
Larry Niven that I was planning to be too
modest to identify,
<http://www.larryniven.net/stories/roentgen.shtml>
"The Roentgen Standard", but otherwise...

<http://www.depauw.edu/sfs/backissues/9/berger9art.htm>
refers to a 1947 story by George O. Smith, but
it doesn't involve money, except peripherally
as postage-stamps.
Peter Trei
2017-02-27 23:01:09 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by Greg Goss
Post by Peter Trei
Post by David DeLaney
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Except, of course, that if everyone had enough gold to be
wealthy-by-current-standards-when-everyone-doesn't-have-that-
much-gold, the gold would become practically worthless.
Also we don't want everybody to have that much uranium.
How about using gold instead of uranium in
the ordinary missiles that are fired at the
enemy's homes and personal possessions?
How about using uranium instead of gold in the circulating coinage? It'll
circulate a lot faster!
I recall one not-very-serious story (Robert Forward???) in which currency
was made of U235, with the intent to discouraging hoarding. Get too much in
your vault, and Bad Things happen.
I remember it as an Asimov super-short.
I believe David had in mind an essay of
Larry Niven that I was planning to be too
modest to identify,
<http://www.larryniven.net/stories/roentgen.shtml>
"The Roentgen Standard", but otherwise...
I'm pretty sure that was it...

pt
Don Kuenz
2017-02-28 03:29:40 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by Greg Goss
Post by Peter Trei
Post by David DeLaney
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Except, of course, that if everyone had enough gold to be
wealthy-by-current-standards-when-everyone-doesn't-have-that-
much-gold, the gold would become practically worthless.
Also we don't want everybody to have that much uranium.
How about using gold instead of uranium in
the ordinary missiles that are fired at the
enemy's homes and personal possessions?
How about using uranium instead of gold in the circulating coinage? It'll
circulate a lot faster!
I recall one not-very-serious story (Robert Forward???) in which currency
was made of U235, with the intent to discouraging hoarding. Get too much in
your vault, and Bad Things happen.
I remember it as an Asimov super-short.
I believe David had in mind an essay of
Larry Niven that I was planning to be too
modest to identify,
<http://www.larryniven.net/stories/roentgen.shtml>
"The Roentgen Standard", but otherwise...
Excellent. It's most propitious that modesty didn't prevail *this time*.

"The Roentgen Standard" elegantly eliminates greedy plutocrats. While
the explosive badge of office in "A Ticket to Tranai" (Sheckley)
eliminates meddlesome politicians.

Combine the two and you might just wind up with a system suited for the
Twenty-First Century. :0)

Thank you,

--
Don Kuenz KB7RPU
James Nicoll
2017-02-28 17:18:52 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Greg Goss
Post by Peter Trei
Post by David DeLaney
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Except, of course, that if everyone had enough gold to be
wealthy-by-current-standards-when-everyone-doesn't-have-that-
much-gold, the gold would become practically worthless.
Also we don't want everybody to have that much uranium.
How about using gold instead of uranium in
the ordinary missiles that are fired at the
enemy's homes and personal possessions?
How about using uranium instead of gold in the circulating coinage? It'll
circulate a lot faster!
I recall one not-very-serious story (Robert Forward???) in which currency
was made of U235, with the intent to discouraging hoarding. Get too much in
your vault, and Bad Things happen.
I remember it as an Asimov super-short.
It's a Niven.
--
My reviews can be found at http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/
My Livejournal at http://www.livejournal.com/users/james_nicoll
My patreon is at https://www.patreon.com/jamesdnicoll
Robert Bannister
2017-02-27 23:52:05 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by David DeLaney
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Except, of course, that if everyone had enough gold to be
wealthy-by-current-standards-when-everyone-doesn't-have-that-
much-gold, the gold would become practically worthless.
Also we don't want everybody to have that much uranium.
How about using gold instead of uranium in
the ordinary missiles that are fired at the
enemy's homes and personal possessions?
How about using uranium instead of gold in the circulating coinage? It'll
circulate a lot faster!
Even "paper" (ours is plastic) money only seems to have a half life
measured in days. My wallet doesn't seem to be able to hold $50 notes
for longer than 24 hours.
--
Robert B. born England a long time ago;
Western Australia since 1972
Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
2017-02-27 23:58:17 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Robert Bannister
Post by David DeLaney
On Sunday, 26 February 2017 22:00:05 UTC, Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Except, of course, that if everyone had enough gold to be
wealthy-by-current-standards-when-everyone-doesn't-have-that-
much-gold, the gold would become practically worthless.
Also we don't want everybody to have that much uranium.
How about using gold instead of uranium in
the ordinary missiles that are fired at the
enemy's homes and personal possessions?
How about using uranium instead of gold in the circulating
coinage? It'll circulate a lot faster!
Even "paper" (ours is plastic) money only seems to have a half
life measured in days. My wallet doesn't seem to be able to hold
$50 notes for longer than 24 hours.
I don't think that has anything to do with any qualifies of the
money. Honestly, do you?
--
Terry Austin

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.
Dimensional Traveler
2017-02-28 02:20:53 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Robert Bannister
Post by David DeLaney
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Except, of course, that if everyone had enough gold to be
wealthy-by-current-standards-when-everyone-doesn't-have-that-
much-gold, the gold would become practically worthless.
Also we don't want everybody to have that much uranium.
How about using gold instead of uranium in
the ordinary missiles that are fired at the
enemy's homes and personal possessions?
How about using uranium instead of gold in the circulating coinage? It'll
circulate a lot faster!
Even "paper" (ours is plastic) money only seems to have a half life
measured in days. My wallet doesn't seem to be able to hold $50 notes
for longer than 24 hours.
What do they break down into?
--
Running the rec.arts.TV Channels Watched Survey.
Winter 2016 survey began Dec 01 and will end Feb 28
Mike Dworetsky
2017-02-28 16:31:19 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Dimensional Traveler
Post by Robert Bannister
Post by David DeLaney
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Except, of course, that if everyone had enough gold to be
wealthy-by-current-standards-when-everyone-doesn't-have-that-
much-gold, the gold would become practically worthless.
Also we don't want everybody to have that much uranium.
How about using gold instead of uranium in
the ordinary missiles that are fired at the
enemy's homes and personal possessions?
How about using uranium instead of gold in the circulating coinage?
It'll circulate a lot faster!
Even "paper" (ours is plastic) money only seems to have a half life
measured in days. My wallet doesn't seem to be able to hold $50 notes
for longer than 24 hours.
What do they break down into?
When the new Churchill polymer £5 note (GBP 5) appeared recently, a
controversy erupted because Vegans and various vegetarians and Hindus
complained that tallow from cattle was used in the process to make the
special plastic. So this may a good way to ensure that such people have to
use cash cards only, or small change. But the half-life of the note in my
pocket is indeed short, though the notes themselves seem to be standing up
to wear and tear very well.
--
Mike Dworetsky

(Remove pants sp*mbl*ck to reply)
Robert Bannister
2017-02-28 23:39:06 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Dimensional Traveler
Post by Robert Bannister
Post by David DeLaney
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Except, of course, that if everyone had enough gold to be
wealthy-by-current-standards-when-everyone-doesn't-have-that-
much-gold, the gold would become practically worthless.
Also we don't want everybody to have that much uranium.
How about using gold instead of uranium in
the ordinary missiles that are fired at the
enemy's homes and personal possessions?
How about using uranium instead of gold in the circulating coinage? It'll
circulate a lot faster!
Even "paper" (ours is plastic) money only seems to have a half life
measured in days. My wallet doesn't seem to be able to hold $50 notes
for longer than 24 hours.
What do they break down into?
Air, I think.
--
Robert B. born England a long time ago;
Western Australia since 1972
Dimensional Traveler
2017-03-01 01:42:25 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Robert Bannister
Post by Dimensional Traveler
Post by Robert Bannister
Post by David DeLaney
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Except, of course, that if everyone had enough gold to be
wealthy-by-current-standards-when-everyone-doesn't-have-that-
much-gold, the gold would become practically worthless.
Also we don't want everybody to have that much uranium.
How about using gold instead of uranium in
the ordinary missiles that are fired at the
enemy's homes and personal possessions?
How about using uranium instead of gold in the circulating coinage? It'll
circulate a lot faster!
Even "paper" (ours is plastic) money only seems to have a half life
measured in days. My wallet doesn't seem to be able to hold $50 notes
for longer than 24 hours.
What do they break down into?
Air, I think.
They don't fission into, say, four $10 notes then seven $5 notes, etc.? :)
--
Running the rec.arts.TV Channels Watched Survey.
Winter 2016 survey began Dec 01 and will end Feb 28
Robert Bannister
2017-03-02 00:34:04 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Dimensional Traveler
Post by Robert Bannister
Post by Dimensional Traveler
Post by Robert Bannister
Post by David DeLaney
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Except, of course, that if everyone had enough gold to be
wealthy-by-current-standards-when-everyone-doesn't-have-that-
much-gold, the gold would become practically worthless.
Also we don't want everybody to have that much uranium.
How about using gold instead of uranium in
the ordinary missiles that are fired at the
enemy's homes and personal possessions?
How about using uranium instead of gold in the circulating coinage? It'll
circulate a lot faster!
Even "paper" (ours is plastic) money only seems to have a half life
measured in days. My wallet doesn't seem to be able to hold $50 notes
for longer than 24 hours.
What do they break down into?
Air, I think.
They don't fission into, say, four $10 notes then seven $5 notes, etc.? :)
That would have been much nicer.
--
Robert B. born England a long time ago;
Western Australia since 1972
Greg Goss
2017-03-01 03:48:10 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Dimensional Traveler
Post by Robert Bannister
Post by David DeLaney
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Except, of course, that if everyone had enough gold to be
wealthy-by-current-standards-when-everyone-doesn't-have-that-
much-gold, the gold would become practically worthless.
Also we don't want everybody to have that much uranium.
How about using gold instead of uranium in
the ordinary missiles that are fired at the
enemy's homes and personal possessions?
How about using uranium instead of gold in the circulating coinage? It'll
circulate a lot faster!
Even "paper" (ours is plastic) money only seems to have a half life
measured in days. My wallet doesn't seem to be able to hold $50 notes
for longer than 24 hours.
What do they break down into?
A few quarters and a dime or two.
--
We are geeks. Resistance is voltage over current.
Juho Julkunen
2017-02-28 02:24:01 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
In article <***@mid.individual.net>, ***@clubtelco.com
says...
Post by Robert Bannister
Post by David DeLaney
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Except, of course, that if everyone had enough gold to be
wealthy-by-current-standards-when-everyone-doesn't-have-that-
much-gold, the gold would become practically worthless.
Also we don't want everybody to have that much uranium.
How about using gold instead of uranium in
the ordinary missiles that are fired at the
enemy's homes and personal possessions?
How about using uranium instead of gold in the circulating coinage? It'll
circulate a lot faster!
Even "paper" (ours is plastic) money only seems to have a half life
measured in days. My wallet doesn't seem to be able to hold $50 notes
for longer than 24 hours.
My wallet can hold paper money indefinitely. I need to make an active
effort to get rid of it. Cash is kinda 20th century.
--
Juho Julkunen
Robert Bannister
2017-02-28 23:41:32 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by J. Clarke
says...
Post by Robert Bannister
Post by David DeLaney
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Except, of course, that if everyone had enough gold to be
wealthy-by-current-standards-when-everyone-doesn't-have-that-
much-gold, the gold would become practically worthless.
Also we don't want everybody to have that much uranium.
How about using gold instead of uranium in
the ordinary missiles that are fired at the
enemy's homes and personal possessions?
How about using uranium instead of gold in the circulating coinage? It'll
circulate a lot faster!
Even "paper" (ours is plastic) money only seems to have a half life
measured in days. My wallet doesn't seem to be able to hold $50 notes
for longer than 24 hours.
My wallet can hold paper money indefinitely. I need to make an active
effort to get rid of it. Cash is kinda 20th century.
I find it a habit thing. I pay for 90% of things in shops by waving my
magic card, but there are some places where I've always paid in cash and
I just keep on doing it. I can't help myself.
--
Robert B. born England a long time ago;
Western Australia since 1972
Default User
2017-03-01 18:35:09 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Robert Bannister
I find it a habit thing. I pay for 90% of things in shops by waving my
magic card, but there are some places where I've always paid in cash and
I just keep on doing it. I can't help myself.
Here are the occasions where I usually use cash:

1. The Chinese restaurant where I get Thursday carryout. They require a $10 purchase for credit card.

2. When my buddy and I eat out. We just get a single check and are usually able to leave the exact amount.

3. Concession stands at the hockey game. Some don't take cards, and even the one that does the two beers are $19 so it's easier to hand her a $20 and go.

Other than that, pretty much everything that can go on credit card does. My go-to card is a Bank of America cash rewards card. I'm a "Platinum Preferred" customer due to investments at Merrill Edge, so I get a 75% rewards boost. That makes it 5.25% on gas, 3.5% on groceries, 1.75% other.

Brian
Robert Bannister
2017-03-02 00:37:05 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Default User
Post by Robert Bannister
I find it a habit thing. I pay for 90% of things in shops by waving my
magic card, but there are some places where I've always paid in cash and
I just keep on doing it. I can't help myself.
1. The Chinese restaurant where I get Thursday carryout. They require a $10 purchase for credit card.
2. When my buddy and I eat out. We just get a single check and are usually able to leave the exact amount.
3. Concession stands at the hockey game. Some don't take cards, and even the one that does the two beers are $19 so it's easier to hand her a $20 and go.
Other than that, pretty much everything that can go on credit card does. My go-to card is a Bank of America cash rewards card. I'm a "Platinum Preferred" customer due to investments at Merrill Edge, so I get a 75% rewards boost. That makes it 5.25% on gas, 3.5% on groceries, 1.75% other.
Brian
Ah. Paywave usually does not involve a credit card. The money comes
straight out of my everyday account. For credit, I have to actually
insert my card into the machine and choose "Credit" if that's even still
allowed in supermarkets - it's been so long since I tried.
--
Robert B. born England a long time ago;
Western Australia since 1972
Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
2017-03-01 23:38:53 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Robert Bannister
On Tuesday, February 28, 2017 at 5:41:35 PM UTC-6, Robert
Post by Robert Bannister
I find it a habit thing. I pay for 90% of things in shops by
waving my magic card, but there are some places where I've
always paid in cash and I just keep on doing it. I can't help
myself.
1. The Chinese restaurant where I get Thursday carryout. They
require a $10 purchase for credit card.
2. When my buddy and I eat out. We just get a single check and
are usually able to leave the exact amount.
3. Concession stands at the hockey game. Some don't take cards,
and even the one that does the two beers are $19 so it's easier
to hand her a $20 and go.
Other than that, pretty much everything that can go on credit
card does. My go-to card is a Bank of America cash rewards
card. I'm a "Platinum Preferred" customer due to investments at
Merrill Edge, so I get a 75% rewards boost. That makes it 5.25%
on gas, 3.5% on groceries, 1.75% other.
Brian
Ah. Paywave usually does not involve a credit card. The money
comes straight out of my everyday account. For credit, I have to
actually insert my card into the machine and choose "Credit" if
that's even still allowed in supermarkets - it's been so long
since I tried.
Americans often miss the difference between credit and debit cards.
I gather than outside the US, actual credit cards are rather more
difficult to get. Like you acvtually need to be creditworthy or
something. (As opposed to giving credit cards to family pets, as is
done in the US.)
--
Terry Austin

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.
h***@gmail.com
2017-03-02 01:25:06 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
Americans often miss the difference between credit and debit cards.
I gather than outside the US, actual credit cards are rather more
difficult to get. Like you acvtually need to be creditworthy or
something. (As opposed to giving credit cards to family pets, as is
done in the US.)
Dunno what the situation is in other places but it's not that tough in Australia.
You need some income but unless you want to go for the high end cards you can normally get some level of credit cards if you're on about 1/3 of the average full time wage unless you've got huge amounts of debts elsewhere.
There were also promotions which used to give credit cards to uni-students with very little income, I'm not sure if they're still doing that.
Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
2017-03-02 02:21:59 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On Thursday, March 2, 2017 at 11:38:55 AM UTC+11, Gutless
Post by Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
Americans often miss the difference between credit and debit
cards. I gather than outside the US, actual credit cards are
rather more difficult to get. Like you acvtually need to be
creditworthy or something. (As opposed to giving credit cards
to family pets, as is done in the US.)
Dunno what the situation is in other places but it's not that
tough in Australia.
But still, I suspect, more difficult than in the US.
You need some income but unless you want to
go for the high end cards you can normally get some level of
credit cards if you're on about 1/3 of the average full time
wage unless you've got huge amounts of debts elsewhere.
It's more difficult than it was pre-2008, but still easier than
that. Not too long ago, it was literally a case of "If we find out
you exist, we'll send you a pre-approved application." I wasn't
kidding about credit cards being given to family pets.
There
were also promotions which used to give credit cards to
uni-students with very little income, I'm not sure if they're
still doing that.
It still happens here. But pets now need a Social Security number,
at least.
--
Terry Austin

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.
h***@gmail.com
2017-03-02 01:21:39 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Robert Bannister
Post by Default User
Post by Robert Bannister
I find it a habit thing. I pay for 90% of things in shops by waving my
magic card, but there are some places where I've always paid in cash and
I just keep on doing it. I can't help myself.
1. The Chinese restaurant where I get Thursday carryout. They require a $10 purchase for credit card.
2. When my buddy and I eat out. We just get a single check and are usually able to leave the exact amount.
3. Concession stands at the hockey game. Some don't take cards, and even the one that does the two beers are $19 so it's easier to hand her a $20 and go.
Other than that, pretty much everything that can go on credit card does. My go-to card is a Bank of America cash rewards card. I'm a "Platinum Preferred" customer due to investments at Merrill Edge, so I get a 75% rewards boost. That makes it 5.25% on gas, 3.5% on groceries, 1.75% other.
Ah. Paywave usually does not involve a credit card. The money comes
straight out of my everyday account. For credit, I have to actually
insert my card into the machine and choose "Credit" if that's even still
allowed in supermarkets - it's been so long since I tried.
Paywave works on credit cards in Australia if the transaction is under AU$100
nuny@bid.nes
2017-02-28 22:51:14 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Robert Carnegie
How about using gold instead of uranium in
the ordinary missiles that are fired at the
enemy's homes and personal possessions?
DU munitions are slightly less dense than gold munitions would be, but DU is much harder. Gold would "splash" where DU penetrates.

Also, DU is flammable. When it penetrates armor some is shaved off into tiny bits that ignite from the heat of friction. That's considered a bonus in munitions. Gold is non-flammable even when molten.

Gold would make ideal ammo for black powder guns and shotguns though. It's half again as dense as, and softer than, lead so it's more prone to "mushroom" rather than "through and through", would barely react with powder and primer residues to foul the barrel, and it's nontoxic so raptors and scavengers eating uncollected hunted birds and such wouldn't be poisoned.


Mark L. Fergerson
h***@gmail.com
2017-02-28 23:04:51 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by ***@bid.nes
Post by Robert Carnegie
How about using gold instead of uranium in
the ordinary missiles that are fired at the
enemy's homes and personal possessions?
DU munitions are slightly less dense than gold munitions would be, but DU is much harder. Gold would "splash" where DU penetrates.
Also, DU is flammable. When it penetrates armor some is shaved off into tiny bits that ignite from the heat of friction. That's considered a bonus in munitions. Gold is non-flammable even when molten.
Gold would make ideal ammo for black powder guns and shotguns though. It's half again as dense as, and softer than, lead so it's more prone to "mushroom" rather than "through and through", would barely react with powder and primer residues to foul the barrel, and it's nontoxic so raptors and scavengers eating uncollected hunted birds and such wouldn't be poisoned.
how would the weight impact muzzle velocity?
nuny@bid.nes
2017-03-01 07:45:19 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by h***@gmail.com
Post by ***@bid.nes
Post by Robert Carnegie
How about using gold instead of uranium in
the ordinary missiles that are fired at the
enemy's homes and personal possessions?
DU munitions are slightly less dense than gold munitions would be, but DU
is much harder. Gold would "splash" where DU penetrates.
Also, DU is flammable. When it penetrates armor some is shaved off into
tiny bits that ignite from the heat of friction. That's considered a bonus
in munitions. Gold is non-flammable even when molten.
Gold would make ideal ammo for black powder guns and shotguns though.
It's half again as dense as, and softer than, lead so it's more prone to
"mushroom" rather than "through and through", would barely react with
powder and primer residues to foul the barrel, and it's nontoxic so raptors
and scavengers eating uncollected hunted birds and such wouldn't be
poisoned.
how would the weight impact muzzle velocity?
Badly.

Gold being more dense than lead, you will get a heavier slug for the same caliber/shot size and # per shell.

However:

F = ma

a = F/m

Hence with the same powder charge (therefore same muzzle energy), less muzzle velocity. Gold being ~1 1/2 x the density of lead -> ~2/3 the muzzle velocity.

Eat cake/have cake. Choose one.


Mark L. Fergerson
Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
2017-03-01 17:05:18 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On Tuesday, February 28, 2017 at 3:04:56 PM UTC-8,
Post by h***@gmail.com
On Sunday, February 26, 2017 at 2:23:13 PM UTC-8, Robert
Post by Robert Carnegie
How about using gold instead of uranium in
the ordinary missiles that are fired at the
enemy's homes and personal possessions?
DU munitions are slightly less dense than gold munitions
would be, but DU
is much harder. Gold would "splash" where DU penetrates.
Also, DU is flammable. When it penetrates armor some is
shaved off into
tiny bits that ignite from the heat of friction. That's
considered a bonus in munitions. Gold is non-flammable even
when molten.
Gold would make ideal ammo for black powder guns and
shotguns though.
It's half again as dense as, and softer than, lead so it's
more prone to "mushroom" rather than "through and through",
would barely react with powder and primer residues to foul
the barrel, and it's nontoxic so raptors and scavengers
eating uncollected hunted birds and such wouldn't be
poisoned.
how would the weight impact muzzle velocity?
Badly.
Gold being more dense than lead, you will get a heavier slug
for the same caliber/shot size and # per shell.
F = ma
a = F/m
Hence with the same powder charge (therefore same muzzle
energy), less muzzle velocity. Gold being ~1 1/2 x the density
of lead -> ~2/3 the muzzle velocity.
Eat cake/have cake. Choose one.
I'm recalling something about kinetic energy scaling with the squre
of the velocity, though. It's never simple.
--
Terry Austin

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.
Greg Goss
2017-03-02 15:33:55 UTC
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Post by Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
I'm recalling something about kinetic energy scaling with the squre
of the velocity, though. It's never simple.
And since momentum is linear, there will be less "kick" for a given
bullet energy.

Now is damage to the target scaled with energy transfer or with
momentum transfer? Higher momentum would have higher penetration,
while higher energy does more damage while it's penetrating.

(And "dum-dum" heads concentrate the region where momentum actually
gets transferred - reducing depth but still momentum-related damage.)

So I'm not sure if bullet damage scales with energy or momentum.
--
We are geeks. Resistance is voltage over current.
David DeLaney
2017-03-01 07:52:56 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by h***@gmail.com
Post by ***@bid.nes
Gold would make ideal ammo for black powder guns and shotguns though.
[...] and it's nontoxic so raptors and scavengers eating uncollected hunted
birds and such wouldn't be poisoned.
how would the weight impact muzzle velocity?
and would eating it change an unladen swallow's airspeed velocity by making it
laden?

Dave, IMPORTANT QUESTIONS
--
\/David DeLaney posting thru EarthLink - "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
gatekeeper.vic.com/~dbd - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.
Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
2017-03-01 17:06:34 UTC
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Post by David DeLaney
Post by h***@gmail.com
Post by ***@bid.nes
Gold would make ideal ammo for black powder guns and
shotguns though.
[...] and it's nontoxic so raptors and scavengers eating
uncollected hunted birds and such wouldn't be poisoned.
how would the weight impact muzzle velocity?
and would eating it change an unladen swallow's airspeed
velocity by making it laden?
Possibly, but it would definitely give it glitter poop:

http://incrediblethings.com/food/this-gold-pill-makes-you-poop-
glitter/
Post by David DeLaney
Dave, IMPORTANT QUESTIONS
Indeed.
--
Terry Austin

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.
Alan Baker
2017-03-02 08:58:28 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by h***@gmail.com
Post by ***@bid.nes
Post by Robert Carnegie
How about using gold instead of uranium in
the ordinary missiles that are fired at the
enemy's homes and personal possessions?
DU munitions are slightly less dense than gold munitions would be, but DU is much harder. Gold would "splash" where DU penetrates.
Also, DU is flammable. When it penetrates armor some is shaved off into tiny bits that ignite from the heat of friction. That's considered a bonus in munitions. Gold is non-flammable even when molten.
Gold would make ideal ammo for black powder guns and shotguns though. It's half again as dense as, and softer than, lead so it's more prone to "mushroom" rather than "through and through", would barely react with powder and primer residues to foul the barrel, and it's nontoxic so raptors and scavengers eating uncollected hunted birds and such wouldn't be poisoned.
how would the weight impact muzzle velocity?
The real question is how it would effect muzzle energy.
Peter Trei
2017-03-02 14:05:34 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Alan Baker
Post by h***@gmail.com
Post by ***@bid.nes
Post by Robert Carnegie
How about using gold instead of uranium in
the ordinary missiles that are fired at the
enemy's homes and personal possessions?
DU munitions are slightly less dense than gold munitions would be, but DU is much harder. Gold would "splash" where DU penetrates.
Also, DU is flammable. When it penetrates armor some is shaved off into tiny bits that ignite from the heat of friction. That's considered a bonus in munitions. Gold is non-flammable even when molten.
Gold would make ideal ammo for black powder guns and shotguns though. It's half again as dense as, and softer than, lead so it's more prone to "mushroom" rather than "through and through", would barely react with powder and primer residues to foul the barrel, and it's nontoxic so raptors and scavengers eating uncollected hunted birds and such wouldn't be poisoned.
how would the weight impact muzzle velocity?
The real question is how it would effect muzzle energy.
As Don indicated upthread, both ammo and gun barrels would have to
be re-optimized for a denser bullet.

Muzzle energy is only one of the issues - accuracy at range, and energy
at target (which matters in non-target uses) are also affected.

pt
Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
2017-02-28 22:09:55 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On Sunday, February 26, 2017 at 2:23:13 PM UTC-8, Robert
Post by Robert Carnegie
How about using gold instead of uranium in
the ordinary missiles that are fired at the
enemy's homes and personal possessions?
DU munitions are slightly less dense than gold munitions would
be, but DU is much harder. Gold would "splash" where DU
penetrates.
DU is also not used in pure form, it is alloyed with other metals to
make it harder.
--
Terry Austin

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.
nuny@bid.nes
2017-03-01 08:28:03 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
On Sunday, February 26, 2017 at 2:23:13 PM UTC-8, Robert
Post by Robert Carnegie
How about using gold instead of uranium in
the ordinary missiles that are fired at the
enemy's homes and personal possessions?
DU munitions are slightly less dense than gold munitions would
be, but DU is much harder. Gold would "splash" where DU
penetrates.
DU is also not used in pure form, it is alloyed with other metals to
make it harder.
AIUI it's not actually about hardness but modulus of elasticity or stiffness (DU is almost as hard as W but much much denser, and doesn't mushroom like W). The idea is to prevent long rod penetrators from flexing like arrows do to avoid glancing blows. Pure DU flexes like steel but adding tiny amounts of W or Mo make it much stiffer.

There's a lot of "State Secret" fog surrounding the details.


Mark L. Fergerson
Robert Woodward
2017-03-01 06:30:20 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by ***@bid.nes
Post by Robert Carnegie
How about using gold instead of uranium in
the ordinary missiles that are fired at the
enemy's homes and personal possessions?
DU munitions are slightly less dense than gold munitions would be, but DU
is much harder. Gold would "splash" where DU penetrates.
Also, DU is flammable. When it penetrates armor some is shaved off into
tiny bits that ignite from the heat of friction. That's considered a bonus
in munitions. Gold is non-flammable even when molten.
Gold would make ideal ammo for black powder guns and shotguns though. It's
half again as dense as, and softer than, lead so it's more prone to
"mushroom" rather than "through and through", would barely react with
powder and primer residues to foul the barrel, and it's nontoxic so raptors
and scavengers eating uncollected hunted birds and such wouldn't be
poisoned.
In chapter 13 of _Mirror Dance_ (by Lois McMaster Bujold), the museum in
Vorhartung Castle had several antique firearms* owned by Emperor Vlad
Vorbarra (from one of the Bloody Centuries, I suspect). Vlad, having the
money, used gold spheres as bullets (and they were retrieved after use,
I suspect).

* From the description, I think they were Blunderbusses.
--
"We have advanced to new and surprising levels of bafflement."
Imperial Auditor Miles Vorkosigan describes progress in _Komarr_.
—-----------------------------------------------------
Robert Woodward ***@drizzle.com
nuny@bid.nes
2017-03-01 08:34:11 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Robert Woodward
Post by ***@bid.nes
Post by Robert Carnegie
How about using gold instead of uranium in
the ordinary missiles that are fired at the
enemy's homes and personal possessions?
DU munitions are slightly less dense than gold munitions would be, but DU
is much harder. Gold would "splash" where DU penetrates.
Also, DU is flammable. When it penetrates armor some is shaved off into
tiny bits that ignite from the heat of friction. That's considered a bonus
in munitions. Gold is non-flammable even when molten.
Gold would make ideal ammo for black powder guns and shotguns though. It's
half again as dense as, and softer than, lead so it's more prone to
"mushroom" rather than "through and through", would barely react with
powder and primer residues to foul the barrel, and it's nontoxic so
raptors and scavengers eating uncollected hunted birds and such wouldn't
be poisoned.
In chapter 13 of _Mirror Dance_ (by Lois McMaster Bujold), the museum in
Vorhartung Castle had several antique firearms* owned by Emperor Vlad
Vorbarra (from one of the Bloody Centuries, I suspect). Vlad, having the
money, used gold spheres as bullets (and they were retrieved after use,
I suspect).
* From the description, I think they were Blunderbusses.
I'll accept that as "prior art".

Kewl, so all we need is an asteroid or two with good yield and we can ban lead ammo!


Mark L. Fergerson
Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
2017-03-01 17:02:01 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On Tuesday, February 28, 2017 at 10:30:24 PM UTC-8, Robert
Post by J. Clarke
In article
On Sunday, February 26, 2017 at 2:23:13 PM UTC-8, Robert
Post by Robert Carnegie
How about using gold instead of uranium in
the ordinary missiles that are fired at the
enemy's homes and personal possessions?
DU munitions are slightly less dense than gold munitions
would be, but DU is much harder. Gold would "splash" where
DU penetrates.
Also, DU is flammable. When it penetrates armor some is
shaved off into tiny bits that ignite from the heat of
friction. That's considered a bonus in munitions. Gold is
non-flammable even when molten.
Gold would make ideal ammo for black powder guns and
shotguns though. It's half again as dense as, and softer
than, lead so it's more prone to "mushroom" rather than
"through and through", would barely react with powder and
primer residues to foul the barrel, and it's nontoxic so
raptors and scavengers eating uncollected hunted birds and
such wouldn't be poisoned.
In chapter 13 of _Mirror Dance_ (by Lois McMaster Bujold), the
museum in Vorhartung Castle had several antique firearms* owned
by Emperor Vlad Vorbarra (from one of the Bloody Centuries, I
suspect). Vlad, having the money, used gold spheres as bullets
(and they were retrieved after use, I suspect).
* From the description, I think they were Blunderbusses.
I'll accept that as "prior art".
Kewl, so all we need is an asteroid or two with good yield and we can ban lead ammo!
Why would you believe that the availability of suitable substitutes
is a prerequisite for banning lead ammo? There's already a partial
ban in place at the federal level.
--
Terry Austin

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.
Robert Carnegie
2017-03-01 09:33:22 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Robert Woodward
Post by ***@bid.nes
Post by Robert Carnegie
How about using gold instead of uranium in
the ordinary missiles that are fired at the
enemy's homes and personal possessions?
DU munitions are slightly less dense than gold munitions would be, but DU
is much harder. Gold would "splash" where DU penetrates.
Also, DU is flammable. When it penetrates armor some is shaved off into
tiny bits that ignite from the heat of friction. That's considered a bonus
in munitions. Gold is non-flammable even when molten.
Gold would make ideal ammo for black powder guns and shotguns though. It's
half again as dense as, and softer than, lead so it's more prone to
"mushroom" rather than "through and through", would barely react with
powder and primer residues to foul the barrel, and it's nontoxic so raptors
and scavengers eating uncollected hunted birds and such wouldn't be
poisoned.
In chapter 13 of _Mirror Dance_ (by Lois McMaster Bujold), the museum in
Vorhartung Castle had several antique firearms* owned by Emperor Vlad
Vorbarra (from one of the Bloody Centuries, I suspect). Vlad, having the
money, used gold spheres as bullets (and they were retrieved after use,
I suspect).
By somebody, anyway.
Post by Robert Woodward
* From the description, I think they were Blunderbusses.
Doesn't that imply lots of little pellets?

Maybe Vlad Vorbarra's balls weren't as big as you
may have imagined.
Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
2017-03-01 17:02:43 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by J. Clarke
In article
On Sunday, February 26, 2017 at 2:23:13 PM UTC-8, Robert
Post by Robert Carnegie
How about using gold instead of uranium in
the ordinary missiles that are fired at the
enemy's homes and personal possessions?
DU munitions are slightly less dense than gold munitions
would be, but DU is much harder. Gold would "splash" where
DU penetrates.
Also, DU is flammable. When it penetrates armor some is
shaved off into tiny bits that ignite from the heat of
friction. That's considered a bonus in munitions. Gold is
non-flammable even when molten.
Gold would make ideal ammo for black powder guns and
shotguns though. It's half again as dense as, and softer
than, lead so it's more prone to "mushroom" rather than
"through and through", would barely react with powder and
primer residues to foul the barrel, and it's nontoxic so
raptors and scavengers eating uncollected hunted birds and
such wouldn't be poisoned.
In chapter 13 of _Mirror Dance_ (by Lois McMaster Bujold), the
museum in Vorhartung Castle had several antique firearms* owned
by Emperor Vlad Vorbarra (from one of the Bloody Centuries, I
suspect). Vlad, having the money, used gold spheres as bullets
(and they were retrieved after use, I suspect).
By somebody, anyway.
Post by J. Clarke
* From the description, I think they were Blunderbusses.
Doesn't that imply lots of little pellets?
Usually, but not inherently.
Post by Robert Carnegie
Maybe Vlad Vorbarra's balls weren't as big as you
may have imagined.
You made a testicle joke.
--
Terry Austin

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.
Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)
2017-03-01 13:32:08 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Robert Woodward
Post by ***@bid.nes
Post by Robert Carnegie
How about using gold instead of uranium in
the ordinary missiles that are fired at the
enemy's homes and personal possessions?
DU munitions are slightly less dense than gold munitions would be, but DU
is much harder. Gold would "splash" where DU penetrates.
Also, DU is flammable. When it penetrates armor some is shaved off into
tiny bits that ignite from the heat of friction. That's considered a bonus
in munitions. Gold is non-flammable even when molten.
Gold would make ideal ammo for black powder guns and shotguns though. It's
half again as dense as, and softer than, lead so it's more prone to
"mushroom" rather than "through and through", would barely react with
powder and primer residues to foul the barrel, and it's nontoxic so raptors
and scavengers eating uncollected hunted birds and such wouldn't be
poisoned.
In chapter 13 of _Mirror Dance_ (by Lois McMaster Bujold), the museum in
Vorhartung Castle had several antique firearms* owned by Emperor Vlad
Vorbarra (from one of the Bloody Centuries, I suspect). Vlad, having the
money, used gold spheres as bullets (and they were retrieved after use,
I suspect).
* From the description, I think they were Blunderbusses.
Gold wouldn't be ideal, though, because one of the reasons people used
lead and still do is that lead melts at 621 F; gold melts at 1,948 F,
making it a LOT more of a pain in the ass to deal with in terms of
melting and casting it into bullets.
--
Sea Wasp
/^\
;;;
Website: http://www.grandcentralarena.com Blog:
http://seawasp.livejournal.com
Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
2017-03-01 17:04:12 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)
Post by J. Clarke
In article
On Sunday, February 26, 2017 at 2:23:13 PM UTC-8, Robert
Post by Robert Carnegie
How about using gold instead of uranium in
the ordinary missiles that are fired at the
enemy's homes and personal possessions?
DU munitions are slightly less dense than gold munitions
would be, but DU is much harder. Gold would "splash" where
DU penetrates.
Also, DU is flammable. When it penetrates armor some is
shaved off into tiny bits that ignite from the heat of
friction. That's considered a bonus in munitions. Gold is
non-flammable even when molten.
Gold would make ideal ammo for black powder guns and
shotguns though. It's half again as dense as, and softer
than, lead so it's more prone to "mushroom" rather than
"through and through", would barely react with powder and
primer residues to foul the barrel, and it's nontoxic so
raptors and scavengers eating uncollected hunted birds and
such wouldn't be poisoned.
In chapter 13 of _Mirror Dance_ (by Lois McMaster Bujold), the
museum in Vorhartung Castle had several antique firearms* owned
by Emperor Vlad Vorbarra (from one of the Bloody Centuries, I
suspect). Vlad, having the money, used gold spheres as bullets
(and they were retrieved after use, I suspect).
* From the description, I think they were Blunderbusses.
Gold wouldn't be ideal, though, because one of the reasons people used
lead and still do is that lead melts at 621 F; gold melts at
1,948 F, making it a LOT more of a pain in the ass to deal with
in terms of melting and casting it into bullets.
And why would the Emperor of Barrayar care about such trivial
details? Given their propsensity for earning the qualifier of "Mad
Emperor," impracticality might actually even more desirable than
high cost.
--
Terry Austin

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.
nuny@bid.nes
2017-03-01 20:15:00 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)
Post by Robert Woodward
Post by ***@bid.nes
Post by Robert Carnegie
How about using gold instead of uranium in
the ordinary missiles that are fired at the
enemy's homes and personal possessions?
DU munitions are slightly less dense than gold munitions would be, but DU
is much harder. Gold would "splash" where DU penetrates.
Also, DU is flammable. When it penetrates armor some is shaved off into
tiny bits that ignite from the heat of friction. That's considered a
bonus in munitions. Gold is non-flammable even when molten.
Gold would make ideal ammo for black powder guns and shotguns though.
It's half again as dense as, and softer than, lead so it's more prone to
"mushroom" rather than "through and through", would barely react with
powder and primer residues to foul the barrel, and it's nontoxic so
raptors and scavengers eating uncollected hunted birds and such wouldn't
be poisoned.
In chapter 13 of _Mirror Dance_ (by Lois McMaster Bujold), the museum in
Vorhartung Castle had several antique firearms* owned by Emperor Vlad
Vorbarra (from one of the Bloody Centuries, I suspect). Vlad, having the
money, used gold spheres as bullets (and they were retrieved after use,
I suspect).
* From the description, I think they were Blunderbusses.
Gold wouldn't be ideal, though, because one of the reasons people used
lead and still do is that lead melts at 621 F; gold melts at 1,948 F,
making it a LOT more of a pain in the ass to deal with in terms of
melting and casting it into bullets.
Its softness allows it to be hand-worked into slugs or pellets much easier than an equal volume of lead could be melted and cast. Plus, no fire or fume hazard.

Lead is entirely suitable for mass-produced ammo for the hoi-polloi of the aristocracy. Vlad's ammo, handmade by skilled artisans...

Not saying that's book canon (haven't read it) but it would fit. A lot of being an aristocrat is about one-upping one's peers.


Mark L. Fergerson
Peter Trei
2017-03-01 21:31:10 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by ***@bid.nes
Post by Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)
Post by Robert Woodward
Post by ***@bid.nes
Post by Robert Carnegie
How about using gold instead of uranium in
the ordinary missiles that are fired at the
enemy's homes and personal possessions?
DU munitions are slightly less dense than gold munitions would be, but DU
is much harder. Gold would "splash" where DU penetrates.
Also, DU is flammable. When it penetrates armor some is shaved off into
tiny bits that ignite from the heat of friction. That's considered a
bonus in munitions. Gold is non-flammable even when molten.
Gold would make ideal ammo for black powder guns and shotguns though.
It's half again as dense as, and softer than, lead so it's more prone to
"mushroom" rather than "through and through", would barely react with
powder and primer residues to foul the barrel, and it's nontoxic so
raptors and scavengers eating uncollected hunted birds and such wouldn't
be poisoned.
In chapter 13 of _Mirror Dance_ (by Lois McMaster Bujold), the museum in
Vorhartung Castle had several antique firearms* owned by Emperor Vlad
Vorbarra (from one of the Bloody Centuries, I suspect). Vlad, having the
money, used gold spheres as bullets (and they were retrieved after use,
I suspect).
* From the description, I think they were Blunderbusses.
Gold wouldn't be ideal, though, because one of the reasons people used
lead and still do is that lead melts at 621 F; gold melts at 1,948 F,
making it a LOT more of a pain in the ass to deal with in terms of
melting and casting it into bullets.
Its softness allows it to be hand-worked into slugs or pellets much easier than an equal volume of lead could be melted and cast. Plus, no fire or fume hazard.
Lead is entirely suitable for mass-produced ammo for the hoi-polloi of the aristocracy. Vlad's ammo, handmade by skilled artisans...
Not saying that's book canon (haven't read it) but it would fit. A lot of being an aristocrat is about one-upping one's peers.
Lead poisoning (of the chemical, biological kind) is a serious health problem
at indoor shooting ranges. Properly constructed ones have astonishing large
(and loud) air handling systems to make sure there's always a brisk breeze
running towards the targets, away from the shooters. Shooting ranges gather
a lot of heavy-metal dust on the floor, which is another problem.

The problem is not only from the lead evaporating off the (very hot) bullet
as it exits the muzzle, but also from the lead styphanate which has been the
main compound of primers for many years. (The primer is the shock
sensitive component which ignites when hit by the firing pin.) In the
past decade or so, lead-free primers have become more available.

A gold bullet would reduce, but not eliminate the lead problem, unless it also
used a lead-free primer.

pt
Kevrob
2017-03-02 02:57:52 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Peter Trei
Post by ***@bid.nes
Post by Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)
Post by Robert Woodward
Post by ***@bid.nes
Post by Robert Carnegie
How about using gold instead of uranium in
the ordinary missiles that are fired at the
enemy's homes and personal possessions?
DU munitions are slightly less dense than gold munitions would be, but DU
is much harder. Gold would "splash" where DU penetrates.
Also, DU is flammable. When it penetrates armor some is shaved off into
tiny bits that ignite from the heat of friction. That's considered a
bonus in munitions. Gold is non-flammable even when molten.
Gold would make ideal ammo for black powder guns and shotguns though.
It's half again as dense as, and softer than, lead so it's more prone to
"mushroom" rather than "through and through", would barely react with
powder and primer residues to foul the barrel, and it's nontoxic so
raptors and scavengers eating uncollected hunted birds and such wouldn't
be poisoned.
In chapter 13 of _Mirror Dance_ (by Lois McMaster Bujold), the museum in
Vorhartung Castle had several antique firearms* owned by Emperor Vlad
Vorbarra (from one of the Bloody Centuries, I suspect). Vlad, having the
money, used gold spheres as bullets (and they were retrieved after use,
I suspect).
* From the description, I think they were Blunderbusses.
Gold wouldn't be ideal, though, because one of the reasons people used
lead and still do is that lead melts at 621 F; gold melts at 1,948 F,
making it a LOT more of a pain in the ass to deal with in terms of
melting and casting it into bullets.
Its softness allows it to be hand-worked into slugs or pellets much easier than an equal volume of lead could be melted and cast. Plus, no fire or fume hazard.
Lead is entirely suitable for mass-produced ammo for the hoi-polloi of the aristocracy. Vlad's ammo, handmade by skilled artisans...
Not saying that's book canon (haven't read it) but it would fit. A lot of being an aristocrat is about one-upping one's peers.
Lead poisoning (of the chemical, biological kind) is a serious health problem
at indoor shooting ranges. Properly constructed ones have astonishing large
(and loud) air handling systems to make sure there's always a brisk breeze
running towards the targets, away from the shooters. Shooting ranges gather
a lot of heavy-metal dust on the floor, which is another problem.
The problem is not only from the lead evaporating off the (very hot) bullet
as it exits the muzzle, but also from the lead styphanate which has been the
main compound of primers for many years. (The primer is the shock
sensitive component which ignites when hit by the firing pin.) In the
past decade or so, lead-free primers have become more available.
A gold bullet would reduce, but not eliminate the lead problem, unless it also
used a lead-free primer.
pt
Golden bullets! Lookee thar! Hoo-hah!

http://jeffoverturf.blogspot.com/2011/03/jack-davis-mad-cartoonists-part-3.html

Kevin R
Don Bruder
2017-03-02 04:14:34 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Peter Trei
Post by ***@bid.nes
Post by Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)
Post by Robert Woodward
Post by ***@bid.nes
Post by Robert Carnegie
How about using gold instead of uranium in
the ordinary missiles that are fired at the
enemy's homes and personal possessions?
DU munitions are slightly less dense than gold munitions would be, but DU
is much harder. Gold would "splash" where DU penetrates.
Also, DU is flammable. When it penetrates armor some is shaved off into
tiny bits that ignite from the heat of friction. That's considered a
bonus in munitions. Gold is non-flammable even when molten.
Gold would make ideal ammo for black powder guns and shotguns though.
It's half again as dense as, and softer than, lead so it's more prone to
"mushroom" rather than "through and through", would barely react with
powder and primer residues to foul the barrel, and it's nontoxic so
raptors and scavengers eating uncollected hunted birds and such wouldn't
be poisoned.
In chapter 13 of _Mirror Dance_ (by Lois McMaster Bujold), the museum in
Vorhartung Castle had several antique firearms* owned by Emperor Vlad
Vorbarra (from one of the Bloody Centuries, I suspect). Vlad, having the
money, used gold spheres as bullets (and they were retrieved after use,
I suspect).
* From the description, I think they were Blunderbusses.
Gold wouldn't be ideal, though, because one of the reasons people used
lead and still do is that lead melts at 621 F; gold melts at 1,948 F,
making it a LOT more of a pain in the ass to deal with in terms of
melting and casting it into bullets.
Its softness allows it to be hand-worked into slugs or pellets much
easier than an equal volume of lead could be melted and cast. Plus, no
fire or fume hazard.
Lead is entirely suitable for mass-produced ammo for the hoi-polloi of
the aristocracy. Vlad's ammo, handmade by skilled artisans...
Not saying that's book canon (haven't read it) but it would fit. A lot of
being an aristocrat is about one-upping one's peers.
Lead poisoning (of the chemical, biological kind) is a serious health problem
at indoor shooting ranges. Properly constructed ones have astonishing large
(and loud) air handling systems to make sure there's always a brisk breeze
running towards the targets, away from the shooters. Shooting ranges gather
a lot of heavy-metal dust on the floor, which is another problem.
The problem is not only from the lead evaporating off the (very hot) bullet
as it exits the muzzle, but also from the lead styphanate which has been the
main compound of primers for many years. (The primer is the shock
sensitive component which ignites when hit by the firing pin.) In the
past decade or so, lead-free primers have become more available.
A gold bullet would reduce, but not eliminate the lead problem, unless it also
used a lead-free primer.
pt
Switching from lead to gold bullets is problematic because of the
differing densities. A 180 grain (A fairly popular weight for .30-06
rounds) gold bullet is going to differ significantly (from a ballistics
standpoint) in dimensions from a 180 grain lead bullet - The gold bullet
is going to be smaller overall, so that if you're going to maintain the
diameter to make it a .30 calibre round, while maintaining the 180 grain
weight, you're going to have to make the length of the bullet shorter -
By eyeball, there won't be that much difference, but once you start
sending rounds downrange, the difference will become screamingly obvious
- Without digging around for specific data, chances are somewhere
between good and excellent that you'll end up with a tumbling bullet,
which means accuracy is going to become almost nonexistent. To maintain
any kind of accuracy, the rifling twist rate will have to be changed.
Which pretty much means a new barrel specifically rifled for gold
bullets. Considering the "installed base" of .30-06 rifles out there,
you're talking a *HUGE* cost to switch over. And that's *JUST* for
.30-06.

Of course, this all totally ignores the difference in price between lead
and gold - As of a check about 2 minutes ago, I'm seeing gold going for
a bit under $1250 per ounce, while lead is going for about a buck a
pound, or (punches calculator buttons) looks like a smidge over 6 cents
per ounce (I'm aware of, but for simplicity, deliberately ignoring, the
Au=troy/Pb=avoirdupois measurement system difference) - So a gold bullet
would cost roughly *TWENTY THOUSAND TIMES* as much as the same lead
bullet. The last time I bought a box of .30-06 rounds, I paid a tad
above a buck and a quarter a shot. Make the bullets out of gold and now
it costs me almost 25 thousand dollars to fire *ONE SHOT*.

Not gonna happen!

(Although the gun-control nutbars would absolutely *LOVE* the concept -
*ANYTHING* to make guns harder to own, maintain, or use is a Good
Thing(TM) so far as they're concerned.)
--
If the door is baroque don't be Haydn. Come around Bach and jiggle the Handel.
Cryptoengineer
2017-03-02 04:41:36 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Don Bruder
Post by Peter Trei
Post by ***@bid.nes
Post by Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)
Post by J. Clarke
In article
Post by ***@bid.nes
Post by Robert Carnegie
How about using gold instead of uranium in
the ordinary missiles that are fired at the
enemy's homes and personal possessions?
DU munitions are slightly less dense than gold munitions
would be, but DU
is much harder. Gold would "splash" where DU penetrates.
Also, DU is flammable. When it penetrates armor some is shaved off into
tiny bits that ignite from the heat of friction. That's
considered a bonus in munitions. Gold is non-flammable even
when molten.
Gold would make ideal ammo for black powder guns and
shotguns though.
It's half again as dense as, and softer than, lead so it's
more prone to
"mushroom" rather than "through and through", would barely react with
powder and primer residues to foul the barrel, and it's
nontoxic so raptors and scavengers eating uncollected hunted
birds and such wouldn't
be poisoned.
In chapter 13 of _Mirror Dance_ (by Lois McMaster Bujold), the museum in
Vorhartung Castle had several antique firearms* owned by
Emperor Vlad Vorbarra (from one of the Bloody Centuries, I
suspect). Vlad, having the
money, used gold spheres as bullets (and they were retrieved
after use, I suspect).
* From the description, I think they were Blunderbusses.
Gold wouldn't be ideal, though, because one of the reasons people used
lead and still do is that lead melts at 621 F; gold melts at
1,948 F, making it a LOT more of a pain in the ass to deal with
in terms of melting and casting it into bullets.
Its softness allows it to be hand-worked into slugs or pellets
much easier than an equal volume of lead could be melted and
cast. Plus, no fire or fume hazard.
Lead is entirely suitable for mass-produced ammo for the
hoi-polloi of the aristocracy. Vlad's ammo, handmade by skilled
artisans...
Not saying that's book canon (haven't read it) but it would fit.
A lot of being an aristocrat is about one-upping one's peers.
Lead poisoning (of the chemical, biological kind) is a serious health
problem at indoor shooting ranges. Properly constructed ones have
astonishing large (and loud) air handling systems to make sure
there's always a brisk breeze running towards the targets, away from
the shooters. Shooting ranges gather a lot of heavy-metal dust on the
floor, which is another problem.
The problem is not only from the lead evaporating off the (very hot)
bullet as it exits the muzzle, but also from the lead styphanate
which has been the main compound of primers for many years. (The
primer is the shock sensitive component which ignites when hit by the
firing pin.) In the past decade or so, lead-free primers have become
more available.
A gold bullet would reduce, but not eliminate the lead problem, unless it also
used a lead-free primer.
pt
Switching from lead to gold bullets is problematic because of the
differing densities. A 180 grain (A fairly popular weight for .30-06
rounds) gold bullet is going to differ significantly (from a
ballistics standpoint) in dimensions from a 180 grain lead bullet -
The gold bullet is going to be smaller overall, so that if you're
going to maintain the diameter to make it a .30 calibre round, while
maintaining the 180 grain weight, you're going to have to make the
length of the bullet shorter - By eyeball, there won't be that much
difference, but once you start sending rounds downrange, the
difference will become screamingly obvious - Without digging around
for specific data, chances are somewhere between good and excellent
that you'll end up with a tumbling bullet, which means accuracy is
going to become almost nonexistent. To maintain any kind of accuracy,
the rifling twist rate will have to be changed. Which pretty much
means a new barrel specifically rifled for gold bullets. Considering
the "installed base" of .30-06 rifles out there, you're talking a
*HUGE* cost to switch over. And that's *JUST* for .30-06.
This is all true, but you could also get greater cross sectional
density, so you could go to a smaller bullet of the same weight
and length, probably with better range.
Post by Don Bruder
Of course, this all totally ignores the difference in price between
lead and gold - As of a check about 2 minutes ago, I'm seeing gold
going for a bit under $1250 per ounce, while lead is going for about a
buck a pound, or (punches calculator buttons) looks like a smidge over
6 cents per ounce (I'm aware of, but for simplicity, deliberately
ignoring, the Au=troy/Pb=avoirdupois measurement system difference) -
So a gold bullet would cost roughly *TWENTY THOUSAND TIMES* as much as
the same lead bullet. The last time I bought a box of .30-06 rounds, I
paid a tad above a buck and a quarter a shot. Make the bullets out of
gold and now it costs me almost 25 thousand dollars to fire *ONE
SHOT*.
Um, no. You're assuming the entire cost of the round is the lead. This
isn't even remotely true.

Your typical .30-06 round might be loaded with a 145 grain FMJ
bullet, which is 0.302 troy ounces. That's about $375 worth of 24K
gold. Of course, since its FMJ (Full Metal Jacket), a substantial
fraction of that weight and cost is replaced by cheaper copper, and
you're unlikely to be using 24K gold for the filling.

Not cheap, but nothing like $25k/round.

The scenario was, iirc, 'what would we do if gold was as cheap
as lead?'.

pt
Quadibloc
2017-03-02 05:41:16 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Peter Trei
but also from the lead styphanate which has been the
main compound of primers for many years.
...as opposed to fulminate of mercury?

John Savard
Peter Trei
2017-03-02 14:02:34 UTC
Permalink
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Post by Quadibloc
Post by Peter Trei
but also from the lead styphanate which has been the
main compound of primers for many years.
...as opposed to fulminate of mercury?
You're almost 100 years out of date.

pt
J. Clarke
2017-02-26 22:51:57 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Quadibloc
Uranium, even before it undergoes isotopic separation, is worth more than gold.
And there is 250 times as much of it in seawater as there is gold - and we all
remember our science textbooks telling us that there would be enough gold in the
world's oceans to make everyone wealthy if it could be accessed.
Except, of course, that if everyone had enough gold to be
wealthy-by-current-standards-when-everyone-doesn't-have-that-
much-gold, the gold would become practically worthless.
Also we don't want everybody to have that much uranium.
Uranium isn't all that interesting--it's mostly
just a heavy metal useful for making sailboat
keels and aircraft control-surface
counterweights and kinetic penetrators for armor
piercing. It's when you extract the uranium 235
that you have something you want to keep under
control and that extraction, which requires
industrial-scale mass spectrometry (hence the
thousands of tons of silver wire mentioned in
another thread) is not something that is within
the means of most individuals--Bill Gates might
be able to afford to extract enough to build a
bomb but darned few others could.
Dimensional Traveler
2017-02-27 03:42:46 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by J. Clarke
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Quadibloc
Uranium, even before it undergoes isotopic separation, is worth more than gold.
And there is 250 times as much of it in seawater as there is gold - and we all
remember our science textbooks telling us that there would be enough gold in the
world's oceans to make everyone wealthy if it could be accessed.
Except, of course, that if everyone had enough gold to be
wealthy-by-current-standards-when-everyone-doesn't-have-that-
much-gold, the gold would become practically worthless.
Also we don't want everybody to have that much uranium.
Uranium isn't all that interesting--it's mostly
just a heavy metal useful for making sailboat
keels and aircraft control-surface
counterweights and kinetic penetrators for armor
piercing. It's when you extract the uranium 235
that you have something you want to keep under
control and that extraction, which requires
industrial-scale mass spectrometry (hence the
thousands of tons of silver wire mentioned in
another thread) is not something that is within
the means of most individuals--Bill Gates might
be able to afford to extract enough to build a
bomb but darned few others could.
The Koch Brothers probably could. (And if that thought doesn't scare
you....)
--
Running the rec.arts.TV Channels Watched Survey.
Winter 2016 survey began Dec 01 and will end Feb 28
Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
2017-02-27 03:10:47 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Dimensional Traveler
Post by J. Clarke
Post by J. Clarke
In article
Post by Quadibloc
Uranium, even before it undergoes isotopic separation, is
worth more than gold.
And there is 250 times as much of it in seawater as there is
gold - and we all remember our science textbooks telling us
that there would be enough gold in the
world's oceans to make everyone wealthy if it could be
accessed.
Except, of course, that if everyone had enough gold to be
wealthy-by-current-standards-when-everyone-doesn't-have-that-
much-gold, the gold would become practically worthless.
Also we don't want everybody to have that much uranium.
Uranium isn't all that interesting--it's mostly
just a heavy metal useful for making sailboat
keels and aircraft control-surface
counterweights and kinetic penetrators for armor
piercing. It's when you extract the uranium 235
that you have something you want to keep under
control and that extraction, which requires
industrial-scale mass spectrometry (hence the
thousands of tons of silver wire mentioned in
another thread) is not something that is within
the means of most individuals--Bill Gates might
be able to afford to extract enough to build a
bomb but darned few others could.
The Koch Brothers probably could. (And if that thought doesn't
scare you....)
I am curious as to exactly what business model you would propose
that involves a corporation using nuclear weapons, that would be
profitable.

Of is this more like the latest anti-Trump meme on Facebook, the
one about "Trump wants to build a wall, and Hilter built the Berlin
wall, so Trump must be Satan incarnate." You know, stupid.
--
Terry Austin

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.
Greg Goss
2017-02-27 08:30:22 UTC
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Post by Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
Post by Dimensional Traveler
The Koch Brothers probably could. (And if that thought doesn't
scare you....)
I am curious as to exactly what business model you would propose
that involves a corporation using nuclear weapons, that would be
profitable.
I think that Heinlein's Friday opens with (as a story vaguely in the
background - not plotline important) IBM nuking Mexico City.
--
We are geeks. Resistance is voltage over current.
Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
2017-02-27 16:30:58 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Greg Goss
Post by Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
Post by Dimensional Traveler
The Koch Brothers probably could. (And if that thought
doesn't scare you....)
I am curious as to exactly what business model you would propose
that involves a corporation using nuclear weapons, that would be
profitable.
I think that Heinlein's Friday opens with (as a story vaguely in
the background - not plotline important) IBM nuking Mexico City.
So, you can't think of any either, then.
--
Terry Austin

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.
Peter Trei
2017-02-27 13:53:19 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
Post by Dimensional Traveler
Post by J. Clarke
Post by J. Clarke
In article
Post by Quadibloc
Uranium, even before it undergoes isotopic separation, is
worth more than gold.
And there is 250 times as much of it in seawater as there is
gold - and we all remember our science textbooks telling us
that there would be enough gold in the
world's oceans to make everyone wealthy if it could be
accessed.
Except, of course, that if everyone had enough gold to be
wealthy-by-current-standards-when-everyone-doesn't-have-that-
much-gold, the gold would become practically worthless.
Also we don't want everybody to have that much uranium.
Uranium isn't all that interesting--it's mostly
just a heavy metal useful for making sailboat
keels and aircraft control-surface
counterweights and kinetic penetrators for armor
piercing. It's when you extract the uranium 235
that you have something you want to keep under
control and that extraction, which requires
industrial-scale mass spectrometry (hence the
thousands of tons of silver wire mentioned in
another thread) is not something that is within
the means of most individuals--Bill Gates might
be able to afford to extract enough to build a
bomb but darned few others could.
The Koch Brothers probably could. (And if that thought doesn't
scare you....)
I am curious as to exactly what business model you would propose
that involves a corporation using nuclear weapons, that would be
profitable.
Protection racket. 'Real nice city you have there - be a pity if
something were to happen to it...'

pt
Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
2017-02-27 16:32:16 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On Sunday, February 26, 2017 at 11:10:49 PM UTC-5, Gutless
Post by Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
Post by Dimensional Traveler
Post by J. Clarke
Post by J. Clarke
In article
Post by Quadibloc
Uranium, even before it undergoes isotopic separation, is worth more than gold.
And there is 250 times as much of it in seawater as there
is gold - and we all remember our science textbooks
telling us that there would be enough gold in the
world's oceans to make everyone wealthy if it could be
accessed.
Except, of course, that if everyone had enough gold to be
wealthy-by-current-standards-when-everyone-doesn't-have-that
- much-gold, the gold would become practically worthless.
Also we don't want everybody to have that much uranium.
Uranium isn't all that interesting--it's mostly
just a heavy metal useful for making sailboat
keels and aircraft control-surface
counterweights and kinetic penetrators for armor
piercing. It's when you extract the uranium 235
that you have something you want to keep under
control and that extraction, which requires
industrial-scale mass spectrometry (hence the
thousands of tons of silver wire mentioned in
another thread) is not something that is within
the means of most individuals--Bill Gates might
be able to afford to extract enough to build a
bomb but darned few others could.
The Koch Brothers probably could. (And if that thought
doesn't scare you....)
I am curious as to exactly what business model you would
propose that involves a corporation using nuclear weapons, that
would be profitable.
Protection racket. 'Real nice city you have there - be a pity if
something were to happen to it...'
That works until the good guys find you, which they will quickly.
Certainly no latre than when you try to collect your money. And
kill you.

So, no, that doesn't seem like a viable business model.
--
Terry Austin

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.
h***@gmail.com
2017-02-27 22:45:13 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
On Sunday, February 26, 2017 at 11:10:49 PM UTC-5, Gutless
Post by Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
I am curious as to exactly what business model you would
propose that involves a corporation using nuclear weapons, that
would be profitable.
Protection racket. 'Real nice city you have there - be a pity if
something were to happen to it...'
That works until the good guys find you, which they will quickly.
Certainly no latre than when you try to collect your money. And
kill you.
So, no, that doesn't seem like a viable business model.
sub-prime mortgage trading...
Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
2017-02-27 23:57:18 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On Tuesday, February 28, 2017 at 4:32:18 AM UTC+11, Gutless
Post by Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
On Sunday, February 26, 2017 at 11:10:49 PM UTC-5, Gutless
Post by Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
I am curious as to exactly what business model you would
propose that involves a corporation using nuclear weapons,
that would be profitable.
Protection racket. 'Real nice city you have there - be a pity
if something were to happen to it...'
That works until the good guys find you, which they will
quickly. Certainly no latre than when you try to collect your
money. And kill you.
So, no, that doesn't seem like a viable business model.
sub-prime mortgage trading...
Which, as it turned out, was also not a viable business model.
--
Terry Austin

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.
Kevrob
2017-02-27 20:56:40 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Dimensional Traveler
Post by J. Clarke
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Quadibloc
Uranium, even before it undergoes isotopic separation, is worth more than gold.
And there is 250 times as much of it in seawater as there is gold - and we all
remember our science textbooks telling us that there would be enough gold in the
world's oceans to make everyone wealthy if it could be accessed.
Except, of course, that if everyone had enough gold to be
wealthy-by-current-standards-when-everyone-doesn't-have-that-
much-gold, the gold would become practically worthless.
Also we don't want everybody to have that much uranium.
Uranium isn't all that interesting--it's mostly
just a heavy metal useful for making sailboat
keels and aircraft control-surface
counterweights and kinetic penetrators for armor
piercing. It's when you extract the uranium 235
that you have something you want to keep under
control and that extraction, which requires
industrial-scale mass spectrometry (hence the
thousands of tons of silver wire mentioned in
another thread) is not something that is within
the means of most individuals--Bill Gates might
be able to afford to extract enough to build a
bomb but darned few others could.
The Koch Brothers probably could. (And if that thought doesn't scare
you....)
David's a libertarian, and even ran for VP as one back in 1980.
I don't think he'd be in favor of initiating a first strike.
Charles flies the 'cklassical liberal" flag, but neither of
them are enamored of the neo-cons and nation builders you find
in the WEEKLY STANDARD crowd.

Kevin R
Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
2017-02-26 23:27:46 UTC
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Raw Message
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Also we don't want everybody to have that much uranium.
I'm not so sure that would be all that bad. Mostly, without
enriching, it wouldn't do much. And anybody who managed to do
_something_ with it would likely just kill themselves.

The math for building an atom bomb is fairly simple. The practical
engineering, not so much.
--
Terry Austin

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.
Quadibloc
2017-02-27 06:37:26 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Also we don't want everybody to have that much uranium.
Well, not under their own personal, unsupervised control, no.

But having a supply of uranium that large _is_ a good thing, because then we will
have longer before we run out of energy supplies. I'll need to check if there is
even more thorium in seawater...

John Savard
Mike Dworetsky
2017-02-27 08:34:43 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Quadibloc
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Also we don't want everybody to have that much uranium.
Well, not under their own personal, unsupervised control, no.
But having a supply of uranium that large _is_ a good thing, because
then we will have longer before we run out of energy supplies. I'll
need to check if there is even more thorium in seawater...
John Savard
The main source of thorium is monazite sand, found in Brazil, India, and
some African countries.
--
Mike Dworetsky

(Remove pants sp*mbl*ck to reply)
William Hyde
2017-02-27 20:06:03 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Quadibloc
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Also we don't want everybody to have that much uranium.
Well, not under their own personal, unsupervised control, no.
But having a supply of uranium that large _is_ a good thing, because then we will
have longer before we run out of energy supplies. I'll need to check if there is
even more thorium in seawater...
Thorium is insoluble, which allows uranium-series dating of sea sediments.

William Hyde
Greg Goss
2017-02-27 08:26:58 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Except, of course, that if everyone had enough gold to be
wealthy-by-current-standards-when-everyone-doesn't-have-that-
much-gold, the gold would become practically worthless.
Would a gold-plated car rust less than a zinc-plated one?
--
We are geeks. Resistance is voltage over current.
Quadibloc
2017-02-27 08:41:45 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Greg Goss
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Except, of course, that if everyone had enough gold to be
wealthy-by-current-standards-when-everyone-doesn't-have-that-
much-gold, the gold would become practically worthless.
Would a gold-plated car rust less than a zinc-plated one?
Zinc coins, used as emergency coinage during World War II in some countries, do
turn a dull dark grey, so zinc does still corrode, even if not as destructively
as iron, which is why galvanized iron is useful for things like washtubs.

Aside from being able to plate more things with gold to prevent corrosion,
cheaper gold would also mean not having to use tin as a substitute sometimes for
electrical contacts.

One could even use gold foil instead of aluminum foil to wrap food... so, yes,
if gold were cheap, it would still have all of its practical uses.

John Savard
Quadibloc
2017-02-27 08:48:08 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Quadibloc
Post by Greg Goss
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Except, of course, that if everyone had enough gold to be
wealthy-by-current-standards-when-everyone-doesn't-have-that-
much-gold, the gold would become practically worthless.
Would a gold-plated car rust less than a zinc-plated one?
Zinc coins, used as emergency coinage during World War II in some countries, do
turn a dull dark grey, so zinc does still corrode, even if not as destructively
as iron, which is why galvanized iron is useful for things like washtubs.
Aside from being able to plate more things with gold to prevent corrosion,
cheaper gold would also mean not having to use tin as a substitute sometimes for
electrical contacts.
One could even use gold foil instead of aluminum foil to wrap food... so, yes,
if gold were cheap, it would still have all of its practical uses.
There is more copper (and aluminum) than gold in seawater - but less copper (and
aluminum) than uranium. And silver is quite rare in seawater. So I don't suppose
gold would become cheaper than copper if we could get metals cheaply from
seawater, that we might wire our houses with it.

John Savard
Greg Goss
2017-02-27 09:02:15 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Quadibloc
Post by Greg Goss
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Except, of course, that if everyone had enough gold to be
wealthy-by-current-standards-when-everyone-doesn't-have-that-
much-gold, the gold would become practically worthless.
Would a gold-plated car rust less than a zinc-plated one?
Zinc coins, used as emergency coinage during World War II in some countries, do
turn a dull dark grey, so zinc does still corrode, even if not as destructively
as iron, which is why galvanized iron is useful for things like washtubs.
Zinc sacrifices itself to corrosion, protecting any iron it's attached
to. Tom Clancy's "Without Remorse" opens with a rescue of people
who's propellor rusted away because they didn't replace the
sacrificial zincs that would have rusted instead.

Gold plating wouldn't do that. Protection by coverage, rather than by
sacrifice.

Chrome actually makes steel rust FASTER. But if you bury the steel,
then there's no problem. Till you scratch it.
--
We are geeks. Resistance is voltage over current.
J. Clarke
2017-02-27 10:48:18 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
In article <189fd8aa-e60d-43f1-bd9e-a912b806b064
@googlegroups.com>, ***@ecn.ab.ca says...
Post by Quadibloc
Post by Greg Goss
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Except, of course, that if everyone had enough gold to be
wealthy-by-current-standards-when-everyone-doesn't-have-that-
much-gold, the gold would become practically worthless.
Would a gold-plated car rust less than a zinc-plated one?
Zinc coins, used as emergency coinage during World War II in some countries, do
turn a dull dark grey, so zinc does still corrode, even if not as destructively
as iron, which is why galvanized iron is useful for things like washtubs.
Aside from being able to plate more things with gold to prevent corrosion,
cheaper gold would also mean not having to use tin as a substitute sometimes for
electrical contacts.
One could even use gold foil instead of aluminum foil to wrap food... so, yes,
if gold were cheap, it would still have all of its practical uses.
Galvanizing is chemical protection, not a simple
barrier. Zinc is higher on the galvanic series
than iron, so in the presence of iron it is the
zinc that gets selectively corroded. Gold is
near the bottom of the galvanic series--just
about anything corrodes to protect gold.

So gold plating is not going to be terribly
effective at protecting steel.
J. Clarke
2017-02-26 22:48:26 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
In article <ec263b3f-3db0-4dd7-8266-14381e876530
@googlegroups.com>, ***@ecn.ab.ca says...
Post by Quadibloc
Uranium, even before it undergoes isotopic separation, is worth more than gold.
And there is 250 times as much of it in seawater as there is gold - and we all
remember our science textbooks telling us that there would be enough gold in the
world's oceans to make everyone wealthy if it could be accessed.
I remember seeing the figure in a table of the composition of seawater even before
I read an SF story about an inventor who had found a way to extract it.
Anyways...
http://topexaminer.com/2017/02/26/extraction-of-uranium-from-seawater-could-be-possible-soon/
it is becoming fact.
It's always been possible to extract it.
However with much cheaper alternatives available
why bother?

Shortage of uranium is not an issue in the world
right now and by the time the cost rises enough
to make extracting it from sea water cost
effective fission will likely be obsolete
anyway.
Quadibloc
2017-02-27 06:53:59 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by J. Clarke
Shortage of uranium is not an issue in the world
right now and by the time the cost rises enough
to make extracting it from sea water cost
effective fission will likely be obsolete
anyway.
One hopes so, but it is good not to be forced to take chances. Until we *do*
have actual fusion reactors that are putting electricity in the grid, one can't
be sure exactly when we *will* have them.

I see that thorium, although four times as common as uranium in the Earth's
crust, is very rare in seawater, probably more so than gold. The main reason for
this is that natural fluorine, present in low concentrations in most rivers,
makes thorium oxide precipitate out of the water.

John Savard
Robert Carnegie
2017-02-27 21:54:06 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Quadibloc
Post by J. Clarke
Shortage of uranium is not an issue in the world
right now and by the time the cost rises enough
to make extracting it from sea water cost
effective fission will likely be obsolete
anyway.
One hopes so, but it is good not to be forced to take chances. Until we *do*
have actual fusion reactors that are putting electricity in the grid, one can't
be sure exactly when we *will* have them.
I see that thorium, although four times as common as uranium in the Earth's
crust, is very rare in seawater, probably more so than gold. The main reason for
this is that natural fluorine, present in low concentrations in most rivers,
makes thorium oxide precipitate out of the water.
John Savard
If that's right, it should turn out to be
"fluoride". The difference is quite important.
Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
2017-02-26 23:26:07 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Quadibloc
Uranium, even before it undergoes isotopic separation, is worth more than gold.
And there is 250 times as much of it in seawater as there is
gold - and we all remember our science textbooks telling us that
there would be enough gold in the world's oceans to make
everyone wealthy if it could be accessed.
I remember seeing the figure in a table of the composition of
seawater even before I read an SF story about an inventor who
had found a way to extract it.
Anyways...
http://topexaminer.com/2017/02/26/extraction-of-uranium-from-seaw
ater-could-be-possible-soon/
it is becoming fact.
I remember seeing similiar claimes, every decade or two, since I was
a very young child. I'd guess the secret to this technology is
practical fusion, and the equipment will have to be mounted in self-
flying electric cars that run on desktop Linux.

Just another few years!
--
Terry Austin

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.
Robert Bannister
2017-02-27 00:33:00 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Quadibloc
Uranium, even before it undergoes isotopic separation, is worth more than gold.
Current price of uranium US$24.50 per pound.
Current price of gold US$1,259 per ounce.

Am I missing something?
Post by Quadibloc
And there is 250 times as much of it in seawater as there is gold - and we all
remember our science textbooks telling us that there would be enough gold in the
world's oceans to make everyone wealthy if it could be accessed.
I remember seeing the figure in a table of the composition of seawater even before
I read an SF story about an inventor who had found a way to extract it.
Anyways...
http://topexaminer.com/2017/02/26/extraction-of-uranium-from-seawater-could-be-possible-soon/
it is becoming fact.
John Savard
--
Robert B. born England a long time ago;
Western Australia since 1972
Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
2017-02-26 23:34:36 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Robert Bannister
Post by Quadibloc
Uranium, even before it undergoes isotopic separation, is worth more than gold.
Current price of uranium US$24.50 per pound.
Current price of gold US$1,259 per ounce.
Am I missing something?
I believe the important fact that you're missing is that you're
taking Quaddie seriously.
--
Terry Austin

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.
Robert Bannister
2017-02-27 23:56:14 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
Post by Robert Bannister
Post by Quadibloc
Uranium, even before it undergoes isotopic separation, is worth more than gold.
Current price of uranium US$24.50 per pound.
Current price of gold US$1,259 per ounce.
Am I missing something?
I believe the important fact that you're missing is that you're
taking Quaddie seriously.
My first laugh of the day!
--
Robert B. born England a long time ago;
Western Australia since 1972
Quadibloc
2017-02-27 06:58:04 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Robert Bannister
Post by Quadibloc
Uranium, even before it undergoes isotopic separation, is worth more than gold.
Current price of uranium US$24.50 per pound.
Current price of gold US$1,259 per ounce.
Am I missing something?
No, clearly I was mistaken.

Since electric utilities use the stuff, I wonder if there is a dollar value for
U-235 or for Pu-239. Since U-238 can be made into the more valuable Pu-239
relatively easily if you happen to have a nuclear reactor... its potential value
is higher than its current price where reprocessing is currently not used in
electrical power generation.

John Savard
Peter Trei
2017-02-27 14:11:23 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Quadibloc
Post by Robert Bannister
Post by Quadibloc
Uranium, even before it undergoes isotopic separation, is worth more than gold.
Current price of uranium US$24.50 per pound.
Current price of gold US$1,259 per ounce.
Am I missing something?
No, clearly I was mistaken.
Since electric utilities use the stuff, I wonder if there is a dollar value for
U-235 or for Pu-239. Since U-238 can be made into the more valuable Pu-239
relatively easily if you happen to have a nuclear reactor... its potential value
is higher than its current price where reprocessing is currently not used in
electrical power generation.
The price of U238 seems to vary a lot depending on who you ask.

http://www.wmsym.org/archives/1998/html/sess29/29-03/29-03.htm
which is a DoE document from 2006 title: "THE FUTURE FOR BENEFICIAL
USES OF DEPLETED URANIUM" claims:

"It is far less expensive than tungsten and gold. Tungsten markets for $25 to
$45 per pound depending on the form of the metal, and gold ranges from $4,500
to $6,500 per pound. Depleted uranium costs $5 per pound from old stockpiles."

I can't find anyone selling it in bulk, there's another government page
selling highly purified reference material, at far higher prices:

https://science.energy.gov/nbl/certified-reference-materials/prices-and-certificates/uranium-certified-reference-materials-price-list/

U238 has seen use in ammo, but also as compact counterweights in aircraft,
and in racing yacht keels.

pt
Robert Carnegie
2017-02-27 21:49:59 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Quadibloc
Uranium, even before it undergoes isotopic separation, is worth more than gold.
And there is 250 times as much of it in seawater as there is gold - and we all
remember our science textbooks telling us that there would be enough gold in the
world's oceans to make everyone wealthy if it could be accessed.
I remember seeing the figure in a table of the composition of seawater even before
I read an SF story about an inventor who had found a way to extract it.
Anyways...
http://topexaminer.com/2017/02/26/extraction-of-uranium-from-seawater-could-be-possible-soon/
it is becoming fact.
John Savard
Breed seaweed / algae / bacteria that consume
uranium. Watch as the seaweed or algae or whatever
becomes intelligent, irritated, and ambulatory.
Decide whether to fight bravely, or welcome our
new seaweedy overlords. Or to pull the "Bow before
your creator" shtick on them, which will give the
rest of us one last thing to smile about even as
we ourselves are terminally enfronded.
David DeLaney
2017-02-28 07:25:05 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Robert Carnegie
Breed seaweed / algae / bacteria that consume
uranium. Watch as the seaweed or algae or whatever
becomes intelligent, irritated, and ambulatory.
Decide whether to fight bravely, or welcome our
new seaweedy overlords. Or to pull the "Bow before
your creator" shtick on them, which will give the
rest of us one last thing to smile about even as
we ourselves are terminally enfronded.
SKRODERIDERS!!1!

Dave, shrieks and runs

ps: this is the second time in a few days I've needed that exclamation
--
\/David DeLaney posting thru EarthLink - "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
gatekeeper.vic.com/~dbd - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.
Anthony Nance
2017-03-01 14:44:18 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by David DeLaney
Post by Robert Carnegie
Breed seaweed / algae / bacteria that consume
uranium. Watch as the seaweed or algae or whatever
becomes intelligent, irritated, and ambulatory.
Decide whether to fight bravely, or welcome our
new seaweedy overlords. Or to pull the "Bow before
your creator" shtick on them, which will give the
rest of us one last thing to smile about even as
we ourselves are terminally enfronded.
SKRODERIDERS!!1!
Neither here nor there, on one of the occasions where my brain went
where it wanted to and I was just a long for the ride, I mentally
mostly completed a filk song titled "Skroderiders in the Sky".[1]
It actually hung together pretty well.

Tony
[1] Filking "Ghost Riders in the Sky", for those who would be
unaware of the source song.
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