Discussion:
Lord of the rings; books, movies, and games
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a***@gmail.com
2017-03-02 19:53:40 UTC
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LOTR continues to be a big success story. I just bought a Sony Play Station 4, and I discovered a game available for it, "Shadow of Mordor". After reading reviews of it, I have decided to buy it. Have any of you played it, and if so, what is your opinion? Another game is in the works, called "Shadow of War".

"Return of the King" is my favourite movie of the 21st century. I have watched it about 4 times. I am also planning to buy the series DVD. It has been over 30 years since I last read the trilogy, but I am not planning to read it for like the 8th time.

When I mention the term, "fantasy", no one understands. But when I mention LOTR, people recognise it. LOTR is possibly bigger than the rest of the fantasy genre. Although there are many excellent works of fantasy, especially from the 1980s.

Is LOTR the most influential work of fantasy? I don't personally care for Harry Potter, or the Game of Thrones.

LOTR remains my favourite work of fantasy. What is your favourite work of fantasy?

Abhinav Lal
Writer & Investor
Dorothy J Heydt
2017-03-02 23:15:55 UTC
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Post by a***@gmail.com
LOTR continues to be a big success story. I just bought a Sony Play
Station 4, and I discovered a game available for it, "Shadow of Mordor".
After reading reviews of it, I have decided to buy it. Have any of you
played it, and if so, what is your opinion? Another game is in the
works, called "Shadow of War".
Yes, I've read about it. Myself, I play The Lord of the Rings
Online, an MMORPG about to celebrate its tenth anniversary. I
recommend it highly.

The way it's structued, each region of Middle-earth is set in a
particular time. In the Shire it's always late September T.A.
3018, a few days after Frodo and company left Bag End. In
Rivendell, it's always December 24th (except for an instance in
which it's December 25 and the Company departs). In the latest
update, we're in North Ithilien and following Elessar's Army toward
the Black Gate. The Battle opens in the next update, in a few
weeks. The Ring will fall and we'll enter ruined Mordor sometime
this summer.

This means if you want to make a new alt and start in with the
Shire, it's still late September T.A. 3018 there.
Post by a***@gmail.com
When I mention the term, "fantasy", no one understands. But when I
mention LOTR, people recognise it. LOTR is possibly bigger than the
rest of the fantasy genre. Although there are many excellent works of
fantasy, especially from the 1980s.
Of course it's fantasy. It's also a heroic epic with touches of
the mythological. Someone said once that _The Lord of the Rings_
an epic written for people who were used to reading novels.
Post by a***@gmail.com
Is LOTR the most influential work of fantasy?
Quite possibly. Before Tolkien there were Willaim Morris and E.
R. Eddison, who had some influence on the form. But there's a
stylistic difference: Morris used rather stilted, archaic
language that (to my eye) doesn't quite come off. Eddison also
used an archaic style, in a very grand manner, and pulled it off.
But Tolkien's style varies with context, from plain English among
the Hobbits to the high poetic in the language of Aragorn and
Eomer when they're in an exalted mood.

Dorothy L. Sayers once compared the language of Dante to that of
Shakespeare, in that each could go from "the south suburbs by the
Elephant" to "the cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces"
without a break. Tolkien can do the same.
Post by a***@gmail.com
I don't personally care
for Harry Potter, or the Game of Thrones.
Me neither. I think I got through four HP books and three movies
before throwing in the sponge, in spite of the magnificent
characterization of Snape. As for GoT, I read maybe one-third of
the way through the first volume, and then there was some trivial
interruption (phone call? knock at the door?) and I laid it down
and never picked it up again.
Post by a***@gmail.com
LOTR remains my favourite work of fantasy. What is your favourite work of fantasy?
Oh, I'm with you. Tolkien all the way.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Robert Bannister
2017-03-03 03:21:25 UTC
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Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by a***@gmail.com
LOTR continues to be a big success story. I just bought a Sony Play
Station 4, and I discovered a game available for it, "Shadow of Mordor".
After reading reviews of it, I have decided to buy it. Have any of you
played it, and if so, what is your opinion? Another game is in the
works, called "Shadow of War".
Yes, I've read about it. Myself, I play The Lord of the Rings
Online, an MMORPG about to celebrate its tenth anniversary. I
recommend it highly.
The way it's structued, each region of Middle-earth is set in a
particular time. In the Shire it's always late September T.A.
3018, a few days after Frodo and company left Bag End. In
Rivendell, it's always December 24th (except for an instance in
which it's December 25 and the Company departs). In the latest
update, we're in North Ithilien and following Elessar's Army toward
the Black Gate. The Battle opens in the next update, in a few
weeks. The Ring will fall and we'll enter ruined Mordor sometime
this summer.
This means if you want to make a new alt and start in with the
Shire, it's still late September T.A. 3018 there.
Post by a***@gmail.com
When I mention the term, "fantasy", no one understands. But when I
mention LOTR, people recognise it. LOTR is possibly bigger than the
rest of the fantasy genre. Although there are many excellent works of
fantasy, especially from the 1980s.
Of course it's fantasy. It's also a heroic epic with touches of
the mythological. Someone said once that _The Lord of the Rings_
an epic written for people who were used to reading novels.
Post by a***@gmail.com
Is LOTR the most influential work of fantasy?
Quite possibly. Before Tolkien there were Willaim Morris and E.
R. Eddison, who had some influence on the form. But there's a
stylistic difference: Morris used rather stilted, archaic
language that (to my eye) doesn't quite come off. Eddison also
used an archaic style, in a very grand manner, and pulled it off.
But Tolkien's style varies with context, from plain English among
the Hobbits to the high poetic in the language of Aragorn and
Eomer when they're in an exalted mood.
Dorothy L. Sayers once compared the language of Dante to that of
Shakespeare, in that each could go from "the south suburbs by the
Elephant" to "the cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces"
without a break. Tolkien can do the same.
Post by a***@gmail.com
I don't personally care
for Harry Potter, or the Game of Thrones.
Me neither. I think I got through four HP books and three movies
before throwing in the sponge, in spite of the magnificent
characterization of Snape. As for GoT, I read maybe one-third of
the way through the first volume, and then there was some trivial
interruption (phone call? knock at the door?) and I laid it down
and never picked it up again.
Post by a***@gmail.com
LOTR remains my favourite work of fantasy. What is your favourite work of fantasy?
Oh, I'm with you. Tolkien all the way.
I bought and read all the Harry Potter books and all the Song of Ice &
Fire books that Martin has so far deigned to write and I thoroughly
enjoyed them, some volumes more than others. I too will put Tolkien at
the top of my list, but there too, some bits are more readable than
others - I much prefer the beginning (and also the first film in the
trilogy) and all the other bits that centre around the hobbits. While I
realise there were bound to be wars, I'm afraid a great deal of the
Helms Deep stuff and the big battle around Gondor leave me a bit cold.
--
Robert B. born England a long time ago;
Western Australia since 1972
a***@gmail.com
2017-03-03 04:35:19 UTC
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Post by Robert Bannister
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by a***@gmail.com
LOTR continues to be a big success story. I just bought a Sony Play
Station 4, and I discovered a game available for it, "Shadow of Mordor".
After reading reviews of it, I have decided to buy it. Have any of you
played it, and if so, what is your opinion? Another game is in the
works, called "Shadow of War".
Yes, I've read about it. Myself, I play The Lord of the Rings
Online, an MMORPG about to celebrate its tenth anniversary. I
recommend it highly.
The way it's structued, each region of Middle-earth is set in a
particular time. In the Shire it's always late September T.A.
3018, a few days after Frodo and company left Bag End. In
Rivendell, it's always December 24th (except for an instance in
which it's December 25 and the Company departs). In the latest
update, we're in North Ithilien and following Elessar's Army toward
the Black Gate. The Battle opens in the next update, in a few
weeks. The Ring will fall and we'll enter ruined Mordor sometime
this summer.
This means if you want to make a new alt and start in with the
Shire, it's still late September T.A. 3018 there.
Post by a***@gmail.com
When I mention the term, "fantasy", no one understands. But when I
mention LOTR, people recognise it. LOTR is possibly bigger than the
rest of the fantasy genre. Although there are many excellent works of
fantasy, especially from the 1980s.
Of course it's fantasy. It's also a heroic epic with touches of
the mythological. Someone said once that _The Lord of the Rings_
an epic written for people who were used to reading novels.
Post by a***@gmail.com
Is LOTR the most influential work of fantasy?
Quite possibly. Before Tolkien there were Willaim Morris and E.
R. Eddison, who had some influence on the form. But there's a
stylistic difference: Morris used rather stilted, archaic
language that (to my eye) doesn't quite come off. Eddison also
used an archaic style, in a very grand manner, and pulled it off.
But Tolkien's style varies with context, from plain English among
the Hobbits to the high poetic in the language of Aragorn and
Eomer when they're in an exalted mood.
Dorothy L. Sayers once compared the language of Dante to that of
Shakespeare, in that each could go from "the south suburbs by the
Elephant" to "the cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces"
without a break. Tolkien can do the same.
Post by a***@gmail.com
I don't personally care
for Harry Potter, or the Game of Thrones.
Me neither. I think I got through four HP books and three movies
before throwing in the sponge, in spite of the magnificent
characterization of Snape. As for GoT, I read maybe one-third of
the way through the first volume, and then there was some trivial
interruption (phone call? knock at the door?) and I laid it down
and never picked it up again.
Post by a***@gmail.com
LOTR remains my favourite work of fantasy. What is your favourite work of fantasy?
Oh, I'm with you. Tolkien all the way.
I bought and read all the Harry Potter books and all the Song of Ice &
Fire books that Martin has so far deigned to write and I thoroughly
enjoyed them, some volumes more than others. I too will put Tolkien at
the top of my list, but there too, some bits are more readable than
others - I much prefer the beginning (and also the first film in the
trilogy) and all the other bits that centre around the hobbits. While I
realise there were bound to be wars, I'm afraid a great deal of the
Helms Deep stuff and the big battle around Gondor leave me a bit cold.
I have never actually read Harry Potter or Game of Thrones, so I may not be in a position to judge them. I watched one HP movie, and didn't like it. I watched a few episodes of GOT and didn't like it. I can't say why.

In LOTR, I enjoyed all three books, and the multiplicity of races, like dwarves and elves. I liked the magical long lived elves the best. Among characters, I liked Aragon (spelling?) the best, as a humble ranger, descended from kings. I didn't enjoy Frodo, Sam, and Gollum journeying to Mordor to destroy the ring. I preferred the adventures of Aragon, and his companions.

I guess that people have different tastes.

Abhinav Lal
Writer & Investor
Post by Robert Bannister
--
Robert B. born England a long time ago;
Western Australia since 1972
Robert Carnegie
2017-03-03 05:08:39 UTC
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Post by a***@gmail.com
Post by Robert Bannister
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by a***@gmail.com
LOTR continues to be a big success story. I just bought a Sony Play
Station 4, and I discovered a game available for it, "Shadow of Mordor".
After reading reviews of it, I have decided to buy it. Have any of you
played it, and if so, what is your opinion? Another game is in the
works, called "Shadow of War".
Yes, I've read about it. Myself, I play The Lord of the Rings
Online, an MMORPG about to celebrate its tenth anniversary. I
recommend it highly.
The way it's structued, each region of Middle-earth is set in a
particular time. In the Shire it's always late September T.A.
3018, a few days after Frodo and company left Bag End. In
Rivendell, it's always December 24th (except for an instance in
which it's December 25 and the Company departs). In the latest
update, we're in North Ithilien and following Elessar's Army toward
the Black Gate. The Battle opens in the next update, in a few
weeks. The Ring will fall and we'll enter ruined Mordor sometime
this summer.
This means if you want to make a new alt and start in with the
Shire, it's still late September T.A. 3018 there.
Post by a***@gmail.com
When I mention the term, "fantasy", no one understands. But when I
mention LOTR, people recognise it. LOTR is possibly bigger than the
rest of the fantasy genre. Although there are many excellent works of
fantasy, especially from the 1980s.
Of course it's fantasy. It's also a heroic epic with touches of
the mythological. Someone said once that _The Lord of the Rings_
an epic written for people who were used to reading novels.
Post by a***@gmail.com
Is LOTR the most influential work of fantasy?
Quite possibly. Before Tolkien there were Willaim Morris and E.
R. Eddison, who had some influence on the form. But there's a
stylistic difference: Morris used rather stilted, archaic
language that (to my eye) doesn't quite come off. Eddison also
used an archaic style, in a very grand manner, and pulled it off.
But Tolkien's style varies with context, from plain English among
the Hobbits to the high poetic in the language of Aragorn and
Eomer when they're in an exalted mood.
Dorothy L. Sayers once compared the language of Dante to that of
Shakespeare, in that each could go from "the south suburbs by the
Elephant" to "the cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces"
without a break. Tolkien can do the same.
Post by a***@gmail.com
I don't personally care
for Harry Potter, or the Game of Thrones.
Me neither. I think I got through four HP books and three movies
before throwing in the sponge, in spite of the magnificent
characterization of Snape. As for GoT, I read maybe one-third of
the way through the first volume, and then there was some trivial
interruption (phone call? knock at the door?) and I laid it down
and never picked it up again.
Post by a***@gmail.com
LOTR remains my favourite work of fantasy. What is your favourite work
of fantasy?
Oh, I'm with you. Tolkien all the way.
I bought and read all the Harry Potter books and all the Song of Ice &
Fire books that Martin has so far deigned to write and I thoroughly
enjoyed them, some volumes more than others. I too will put Tolkien at
the top of my list, but there too, some bits are more readable than
others - I much prefer the beginning (and also the first film in the
trilogy) and all the other bits that centre around the hobbits. While I
realise there were bound to be wars, I'm afraid a great deal of the
Helms Deep stuff and the big battle around Gondor leave me a bit cold.
I have never actually read Harry Potter or Game of Thrones, so I may not be in a position to judge them. I watched one HP movie, and didn't like it. I watched a few episodes of GOT and didn't like it. I can't say why.
In LOTR, I enjoyed all three books, and the multiplicity of races, like dwarves and elves. I liked the magical long lived elves the best. Among characters, I liked Aragon (spelling?) the best, as a humble ranger, descended from kings. I didn't enjoy Frodo, Sam, and Gollum journeying to Mordor to destroy the ring. I preferred the adventures of Aragon, and his companions.
I guess that people have different tastes.
Frodo and Sam didn't meet so many interesting
people once they got to Mordor. Even Faramir
arrested them. And Gollum - he isn't good
company. He's psychologically interesting
but that isn't what you look for socially.

Mordor doesn't have the scenery. And the weather
was lousy. If this was "Trip Advisor" -

On the other hand, the pleasant countryside
of Minas Tirith turned out to be overrun by
loud uncouth tourists. I think I'd rather
go on holiday overseas, as Bilbo and Elrond
did in the end.
a***@gmail.com
2017-03-03 07:12:11 UTC
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Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by a***@gmail.com
Post by Robert Bannister
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by a***@gmail.com
LOTR continues to be a big success story. I just bought a Sony Play
Station 4, and I discovered a game available for it, "Shadow of Mordor".
After reading reviews of it, I have decided to buy it. Have any of you
played it, and if so, what is your opinion? Another game is in the
works, called "Shadow of War".
Yes, I've read about it. Myself, I play The Lord of the Rings
Online, an MMORPG about to celebrate its tenth anniversary. I
recommend it highly.
The way it's structued, each region of Middle-earth is set in a
particular time. In the Shire it's always late September T.A.
3018, a few days after Frodo and company left Bag End. In
Rivendell, it's always December 24th (except for an instance in
which it's December 25 and the Company departs). In the latest
update, we're in North Ithilien and following Elessar's Army toward
the Black Gate. The Battle opens in the next update, in a few
weeks. The Ring will fall and we'll enter ruined Mordor sometime
this summer.
This means if you want to make a new alt and start in with the
Shire, it's still late September T.A. 3018 there.
Post by a***@gmail.com
When I mention the term, "fantasy", no one understands. But when I
mention LOTR, people recognise it. LOTR is possibly bigger than the
rest of the fantasy genre. Although there are many excellent works of
fantasy, especially from the 1980s.
Of course it's fantasy. It's also a heroic epic with touches of
the mythological. Someone said once that _The Lord of the Rings_
an epic written for people who were used to reading novels.
Post by a***@gmail.com
Is LOTR the most influential work of fantasy?
Quite possibly. Before Tolkien there were Willaim Morris and E.
R. Eddison, who had some influence on the form. But there's a
stylistic difference: Morris used rather stilted, archaic
language that (to my eye) doesn't quite come off. Eddison also
used an archaic style, in a very grand manner, and pulled it off.
But Tolkien's style varies with context, from plain English among
the Hobbits to the high poetic in the language of Aragorn and
Eomer when they're in an exalted mood.
Dorothy L. Sayers once compared the language of Dante to that of
Shakespeare, in that each could go from "the south suburbs by the
Elephant" to "the cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces"
without a break. Tolkien can do the same.
Post by a***@gmail.com
I don't personally care
for Harry Potter, or the Game of Thrones.
Me neither. I think I got through four HP books and three movies
before throwing in the sponge, in spite of the magnificent
characterization of Snape. As for GoT, I read maybe one-third of
the way through the first volume, and then there was some trivial
interruption (phone call? knock at the door?) and I laid it down
and never picked it up again.
Post by a***@gmail.com
LOTR remains my favourite work of fantasy. What is your favourite work
of fantasy?
Oh, I'm with you. Tolkien all the way.
I bought and read all the Harry Potter books and all the Song of Ice &
Fire books that Martin has so far deigned to write and I thoroughly
enjoyed them, some volumes more than others. I too will put Tolkien at
the top of my list, but there too, some bits are more readable than
others - I much prefer the beginning (and also the first film in the
trilogy) and all the other bits that centre around the hobbits. While I
realise there were bound to be wars, I'm afraid a great deal of the
Helms Deep stuff and the big battle around Gondor leave me a bit cold.
I have never actually read Harry Potter or Game of Thrones, so I may not be in a position to judge them. I watched one HP movie, and didn't like it. I watched a few episodes of GOT and didn't like it. I can't say why.
In LOTR, I enjoyed all three books, and the multiplicity of races, like dwarves and elves. I liked the magical long lived elves the best. Among characters, I liked Aragon (spelling?) the best, as a humble ranger, descended from kings. I didn't enjoy Frodo, Sam, and Gollum journeying to Mordor to destroy the ring. I preferred the adventures of Aragon, and his companions.
I guess that people have different tastes.
Frodo and Sam didn't meet so many interesting
people once they got to Mordor. Even Faramir
arrested them. And Gollum - he isn't good
company. He's psychologically interesting
but that isn't what you look for socially.
Mordor doesn't have the scenery. And the weather
was lousy. If this was "Trip Advisor" -
On the other hand, the pleasant countryside
of Minas Tirith turned out to be overrun by
loud uncouth tourists. I think I'd rather
go on holiday overseas, as Bilbo and Elrond
did in the end.
I just returned from my shopping trip. I have bought "Shadow of Mordor" for INR 3,000 (USD 45), Lord of the Rings DVD for INR 1,499 (USD 22). There are 12 DVDs, which includes extended movies with additional scenes, and other footage. The DVD set is priced reasonably, but the game is expensive.

I am looking forward to this weekend.

Abhinav Lal
Writer & Investor
Robert Bannister
2017-03-04 02:44:15 UTC
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Post by a***@gmail.com
Post by Robert Bannister
In article
Post by a***@gmail.com
LOTR continues to be a big success story. I just bought a Sony
Play Station 4, and I discovered a game available for it,
"Shadow of Mordor". After reading reviews of it, I have decided
to buy it. Have any of you played it, and if so, what is your
opinion? Another game is in the works, called "Shadow of
War".
Yes, I've read about it. Myself, I play The Lord of the Rings
Online, an MMORPG about to celebrate its tenth anniversary. I
recommend it highly.
The way it's structued, each region of Middle-earth is set in a
particular time. In the Shire it's always late September T.A.
3018, a few days after Frodo and company left Bag End. In
Rivendell, it's always December 24th (except for an instance in
which it's December 25 and the Company departs). In the latest
update, we're in North Ithilien and following Elessar's Army
toward the Black Gate. The Battle opens in the next update, in a
few weeks. The Ring will fall and we'll enter ruined Mordor
sometime this summer.
This means if you want to make a new alt and start in with the
Shire, it's still late September T.A. 3018 there.
Post by a***@gmail.com
When I mention the term, "fantasy", no one understands. But
when I mention LOTR, people recognise it. LOTR is possibly
bigger than the rest of the fantasy genre. Although there are
many excellent works of fantasy, especially from the 1980s.
Of course it's fantasy. It's also a heroic epic with touches of
the mythological. Someone said once that _The Lord of the
Rings_ an epic written for people who were used to reading
novels.
Post by a***@gmail.com
Is LOTR the most influential work of fantasy?
Quite possibly. Before Tolkien there were Willaim Morris and E.
R. Eddison, who had some influence on the form. But there's a
stylistic difference: Morris used rather stilted, archaic
language that (to my eye) doesn't quite come off. Eddison also
used an archaic style, in a very grand manner, and pulled it
off. But Tolkien's style varies with context, from plain English
among the Hobbits to the high poetic in the language of Aragorn
and Eomer when they're in an exalted mood.
Dorothy L. Sayers once compared the language of Dante to that of
Shakespeare, in that each could go from "the south suburbs by
the Elephant" to "the cloud-capped towers, the gorgeous palaces"
without a break. Tolkien can do the same.
Post by a***@gmail.com
I don't personally care for Harry Potter, or the Game of
Thrones.
Me neither. I think I got through four HP books and three
movies before throwing in the sponge, in spite of the
magnificent characterization of Snape. As for GoT, I read maybe
one-third of the way through the first volume, and then there was
some trivial interruption (phone call? knock at the door?) and I
laid it down and never picked it up again.
Post by a***@gmail.com
LOTR remains my favourite work of fantasy. What is your
favourite work of fantasy?
Oh, I'm with you. Tolkien all the way.
I bought and read all the Harry Potter books and all the Song of
Ice & Fire books that Martin has so far deigned to write and I
thoroughly enjoyed them, some volumes more than others. I too will
put Tolkien at the top of my list, but there too, some bits are
more readable than others - I much prefer the beginning (and also
the first film in the trilogy) and all the other bits that centre
around the hobbits. While I realise there were bound to be wars,
I'm afraid a great deal of the Helms Deep stuff and the big battle
around Gondor leave me a bit cold.
I have never actually read Harry Potter or Game of Thrones, so I may
not be in a position to judge them. I watched one HP movie, and
didn't like it. I watched a few episodes of GOT and didn't like it.
I can't say why.
In LOTR, I enjoyed all three books, and the multiplicity of races,
like dwarves and elves. I liked the magical long lived elves the
best. Among characters, I liked Aragon (spelling?) the best, as a
humble ranger, descended from kings. I didn't enjoy Frodo, Sam, and
Gollum journeying to Mordor to destroy the ring. I preferred the
adventures of Aragon, and his companions.
I guess that people have different tastes.
Abhinav Lal Writer & Investor
Post by Robert Bannister
-- Robert B. born England a long time ago; Western Australia since
1972
Basically, I liked it all up as far as and through the Mines of Moria. I
found the next elven bit rather boring,but there were some good fights
as they went downriver. I was a bit nonplussed when the party split up,
but on the whole, I preferred the Hobbit adventures. After that, it all
went downhill. In the movies, it was worse when Gollum completely
upstaged the others, but I agree with you that the trip to Mordor was
depressing. Really, there was a lot in the last two books that I was not
totally absorbed in, although I did like the bit around Saruman's tower.
As you say, different parts of the book appeal to different people. I
bet some people absolutely lapped up the long battle scenes.
--
Robert B. born England a long time ago;
Western Australia since 1972
h***@gmail.com
2017-03-03 03:48:54 UTC
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Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by a***@gmail.com
I don't personally care
for Harry Potter, or the Game of Thrones.
Me neither. I think I got through four HP books and three movies
before throwing in the sponge, in spite of the magnificent
characterization of Snape. As for GoT, I read maybe one-third of
the way through the first volume, and then there was some trivial
interruption (phone call? knock at the door?) and I laid it down
and never picked it up again.
I don't think GoT would be to your taste.
Dorothy J Heydt
2017-03-03 06:16:46 UTC
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Post by h***@gmail.com
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by a***@gmail.com
I don't personally care
for Harry Potter, or the Game of Thrones.
Me neither. I think I got through four HP books and three movies
before throwing in the sponge, in spite of the magnificent
characterization of Snape. As for GoT, I read maybe one-third of
the way through the first volume, and then there was some trivial
interruption (phone call? knock at the door?) and I laid it down
and never picked it up again.
I don't think GoT would be to your taste.
I don't either. My opinion, from what I did read, is that Martin
is a fantastic writer, that he excels at characterization, and
that he then takes all those great characters and kills them off
horribly one by one.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Jaimie Vandenbergh
2017-03-03 12:58:25 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by h***@gmail.com
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by a***@gmail.com
I don't personally care
for Harry Potter, or the Game of Thrones.
Me neither. I think I got through four HP books and three movies
before throwing in the sponge, in spite of the magnificent
characterization of Snape. As for GoT, I read maybe one-third of
the way through the first volume, and then there was some trivial
interruption (phone call? knock at the door?) and I laid it down
and never picked it up again.
I don't think GoT would be to your taste.
I don't either. My opinion, from what I did read, is that Martin
is a fantastic writer, that he excels at characterization, and
that he then takes all those great characters and kills them off
horribly one by one.
Sometimes also in groups.

You're fairly likely to enjoy his _Fevre Dream_ (1982), if you happen
across it and have the free time and aren't pathologically averse to the
taint of vampire. Mississippi riverboat c1850 setting, and nothing like
a dull sparkly vampire novel of the modern school.

Cheers - Jaimie
--
"They called me mad, and I called them mad, and damn them, they outvoted me"
- Nathaniel Lee
Moriarty
2017-03-03 03:57:19 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
<snip>
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by a***@gmail.com
Is LOTR the most influential work of fantasy?
Quite possibly. Before Tolkien there were Willaim Morris and E.
R. Eddison, who had some influence on the form.
Tolkien's the giant of 20th century fantasy but you could certainly argue that Geoffrey of Monmouth, Chrétien de Troyes and Thomas Malory were just as influential. The King Arthur legend certainly inspired much of modern fantasy, including Tolkien himself.

Homer has a similar claim.
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by a***@gmail.com
LOTR remains my favourite work of fantasy. What is your favourite work of fantasy?
Oh, I'm with you. Tolkien all the way.
AOL.

-Moriarty
a***@gmail.com
2017-03-03 04:43:13 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Moriarty
<snip>
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by a***@gmail.com
Is LOTR the most influential work of fantasy?
Quite possibly. Before Tolkien there were Willaim Morris and E.
R. Eddison, who had some influence on the form.
Tolkien's the giant of 20th century fantasy but you could certainly argue that Geoffrey of Monmouth, Chrétien de Troyes and Thomas Malory were just as influential. The King Arthur legend certainly inspired much of modern fantasy, including Tolkien himself.
I agree with you. In the 20th century, Tolkien is most influential. There are many movies based on the legend of King Arthur, but none as visually stunning as LOTR. Are there any good Arthur games?

Abhinav Lal
Writer & Investor
Post by Moriarty
Homer has a similar claim.
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by a***@gmail.com
LOTR remains my favourite work of fantasy. What is your favourite work of fantasy?
Oh, I'm with you. Tolkien all the way.
AOL.
-Moriarty
Ted Nolan <tednolan>
2017-03-03 05:21:38 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Moriarty
<snip>
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by a***@gmail.com
Is LOTR the most influential work of fantasy?
Quite possibly. Before Tolkien there were Willaim Morris and E.
R. Eddison, who had some influence on the form.
Tolkien's the giant of 20th century fantasy but you could certainly
argue that Geoffrey of Monmouth, Chrétien de Troyes and Thomas Malory
were just as influential. The King Arthur legend certainly inspired much
of modern fantasy, including Tolkien himself.
I agree with you. In the 20th century, Tolkien is most influential.
There are many movies based on the legend of King Arthur, but none as
visually stunning as LOTR. Are there any good Arthur games?
Abhinav Lal
Writer & Investor
Post by Moriarty
Homer has a similar claim.
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by a***@gmail.com
LOTR remains my favourite work of fantasy. What is your favourite work of fantasy?
Oh, I'm with you. Tolkien all the way.
AOL.
-Moriarty
I would say Howard is probably as influential as Tolkien. Not saying he's
better, just that probably as much or more current fantasy has Conan in
its gene pool as has Frodo.
--
------
columbiaclosings.com
What's not in Columbia anymore..
David Johnston
2017-03-03 05:35:29 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Post by Moriarty
<snip>
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by a***@gmail.com
Is LOTR the most influential work of fantasy?
Quite possibly. Before Tolkien there were Willaim Morris and E.
R. Eddison, who had some influence on the form.
Tolkien's the giant of 20th century fantasy but you could certainly
argue that Geoffrey of Monmouth, Chrétien de Troyes and Thomas Malory
were just as influential. The King Arthur legend certainly inspired much
of modern fantasy, including Tolkien himself.
I agree with you. In the 20th century, Tolkien is most influential.
There are many movies based on the legend of King Arthur, but none as
visually stunning as LOTR. Are there any good Arthur games?
Abhinav Lal
Writer & Investor
Post by Moriarty
Homer has a similar claim.
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by a***@gmail.com
LOTR remains my favourite work of fantasy. What is your favourite work of fantasy?
Oh, I'm with you. Tolkien all the way.
AOL.
-Moriarty
I would say Howard is probably as influential as Tolkien. Not saying he's
better, just that probably as much or more current fantasy has Conan in
its gene pool as has Frodo.
I'd rank Leiber higher than Howard. Leiber created the archetypical low
fantasy city and while Fafrhd was a Conan knock-off, there are more low
fantasy heroes who are in the Mouser's line.
Jack Bohn
2017-03-03 14:47:42 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
I would say Howard is probably as influential as Tolkien. Not saying he's
better, just that probably as much or more current fantasy has Conan in
its gene pool as has Frodo.
Oh, that Howard. My initial thought was that you were being excessively familiar with Howard Phillip Lovecraft. Not to start an argument on genre, but, while he was more a horror writer, his influence was from the parts where he was going for more than the frisson of terror. Of course, he was in correspondence with Robert E. Howard, but by a non-transitive property, the influences on The Major Influences might not themselves be Major Influences.

We know C.S. Lewis read the pulps, is there any reference of Tolkien knowing about Lovecraft?
--
-Jack
Dorothy J Heydt
2017-03-03 16:00:11 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Jack Bohn
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
I would say Howard is probably as influential as Tolkien. Not saying he's
better, just that probably as much or more current fantasy has Conan in
its gene pool as has Frodo.
Oh, that Howard. My initial thought was that you were being excessively
familiar with Howard Phillip Lovecraft. Not to start an argument on
genre, but, while he was more a horror writer, his influence was from
the parts where he was going for more than the frisson of terror. Of
course, he was in correspondence with Robert E. Howard, but by a
non-transitive property, the influences on The Major Influences might
not themselves be Major Influences.
We know C.S. Lewis read the pulps, is there any reference of Tolkien knowing about Lovecraft?
Not to my knowledge. I do know that in the late 1930s Lewis and
Tolkien agreed that they would each write a work of science
fiction or fantasy. Lewis chose SF and wrote _Out of the Silent
Planet_ (and later, its two sequels). Tolkien chose fantasy, and
wrote _Autrou and Itroun,_ based on a Breton folktale IIRC. I
have not read it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Lay_of_Aotrou_and_Itroun

I observe that it was published in 2016 and it's in verse.

Digression: the hero of _Out of the Silent Planet_ and
_Perelandra_ is clearly based on Tolkien, and the bits of
otherworldly language are borrowed from Tolkien's Elvish
languages as Lewis had encountered them in Inklings meetings. By
the third volume, _That Hideous Strength_, the hero (same hero,
Professor Elwin Ransom) is clearly based on Charles Williams.
But there still appears a line in it regarding the otherworldly
language: "Not even in Numinor was it heard in the streets."
Lewis had heard the name Numenor at meetings, but never seen it
spelled.

I wish to Iluvatar somebody could put up a scannable version of
Tolkien's collected letters; I've gone through the volume several
times, looking for a chance remark he made, "The Dunedain were
beardless, a sign of their Elvish blood." I know it's in there
but haven't been able to find it a second time.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Kevrob
2017-03-03 16:57:57 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Jack Bohn
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
I would say Howard is probably as influential as Tolkien. Not saying he's
better, just that probably as much or more current fantasy has Conan in
its gene pool as has Frodo.
Oh, that Howard. My initial thought was that you were being excessively
familiar with Howard Phillip Lovecraft. Not to start an argument on
genre, but, while he was more a horror writer, his influence was from
the parts where he was going for more than the frisson of terror. Of
course, he was in correspondence with Robert E. Howard, but by a
non-transitive property, the influences on The Major Influences might
not themselves be Major Influences.
We know C.S. Lewis read the pulps, is there any reference of Tolkien
knowing about Lovecraft?
Not to my knowledge. I do know that in the late 1930s Lewis and
Tolkien agreed that they would each write a work of science
fiction or fantasy. Lewis chose SF and wrote _Out of the Silent
Planet_ (and later, its two sequels). Tolkien chose fantasy, and
wrote _Autrou and Itroun,_ based on a Breton folktale IIRC. I
have not read it.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Lay_of_Aotrou_and_Itroun
I observe that it was published in 2016 and it's in verse.
Digression: the hero of _Out of the Silent Planet_ and
_Perelandra_ is clearly based on Tolkien, and the bits of
otherworldly language are borrowed from Tolkien's Elvish
languages as Lewis had encountered them in Inklings meetings. By
the third volume, _That Hideous Strength_, the hero (same hero,
Professor Elwin Ransom) is clearly based on Charles Williams.
But there still appears a line in it regarding the otherworldly
language: "Not even in Numinor was it heard in the streets."
Lewis had heard the name Numenor at meetings, but never seen it
spelled.
I wish to Iluvatar somebody could put up a scannable version of
Tolkien's collected letters; I've gone through the volume several
times, looking for a chance remark he made, "The Dunedain were
beardless, a sign of their Elvish blood." I know it's in there
but haven't been able to find it a second time.
There's a mention of it in Untold Tales, in The History of Galadriel
and Celeborn, according to this discussion board posting I found:

[quote]

"In a note written in December 1972 or later, and among the last
writings of my father's on the subject of Middle-earth, there is
a discussion of the Elvish strain in Men, as to its being observable
in the beardlessness of those who were so descended (it was a characteristic
of all Elves to be beardless); and it is here noted in connection with
the princely house of Dol Amroth that "this line had a special Elvish
strain, according to its own legends" (with a reference to the speeches
between Legolas and Imrahil in The Return of the King V 9, cited above)."
(The History of Galadriel and Celeborn, UT)

[/quote] - posted by "Vugar"

http://www.lotrplaza.com/archives/index.php?Archive=Second%20Age&TID=212755

If that is at all accurate, maybe it is the end of the string you might need
to find the actual JRRT quote?

Kevin R
Dorothy J Heydt
2017-03-03 17:56:38 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Kevrob
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Jack Bohn
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
I would say Howard is probably as influential as Tolkien. Not saying he's
better, just that probably as much or more current fantasy has Conan in
its gene pool as has Frodo.
Oh, that Howard. My initial thought was that you were being excessively
familiar with Howard Phillip Lovecraft. Not to start an argument on
genre, but, while he was more a horror writer, his influence was from
the parts where he was going for more than the frisson of terror. Of
course, he was in correspondence with Robert E. Howard, but by a
non-transitive property, the influences on The Major Influences might
not themselves be Major Influences.
We know C.S. Lewis read the pulps, is there any reference of Tolkien
knowing about Lovecraft?
Not to my knowledge. I do know that in the late 1930s Lewis and
Tolkien agreed that they would each write a work of science
fiction or fantasy. Lewis chose SF and wrote _Out of the Silent
Planet_ (and later, its two sequels). Tolkien chose fantasy, and
wrote _Autrou and Itroun,_ based on a Breton folktale IIRC. I
have not read it.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Lay_of_Aotrou_and_Itroun
I observe that it was published in 2016 and it's in verse.
Digression: the hero of _Out of the Silent Planet_ and
_Perelandra_ is clearly based on Tolkien, and the bits of
otherworldly language are borrowed from Tolkien's Elvish
languages as Lewis had encountered them in Inklings meetings. By
the third volume, _That Hideous Strength_, the hero (same hero,
Professor Elwin Ransom) is clearly based on Charles Williams.
But there still appears a line in it regarding the otherworldly
language: "Not even in Numinor was it heard in the streets."
Lewis had heard the name Numenor at meetings, but never seen it
spelled.
I wish to Iluvatar somebody could put up a scannable version of
Tolkien's collected letters; I've gone through the volume several
times, looking for a chance remark he made, "The Dunedain were
beardless, a sign of their Elvish blood." I know it's in there
but haven't been able to find it a second time.
There's a mention of it in Untold Tales, in The History of Galadriel
[quote]
"In a note written in December 1972 or later, and among the last
writings of my father's on the subject of Middle-earth, there is
a discussion of the Elvish strain in Men, as to its being observable
in the beardlessness of those who were so descended (it was a characteristic
of all Elves to be beardless); and it is here noted in connection with
the princely house of Dol Amroth that "this line had a special Elvish
strain, according to its own legends" (with a reference to the speeches
between Legolas and Imrahil in The Return of the King V 9, cited above)."
(The History of Galadriel and Celeborn, UT)
[/quote] - posted by "Vugar"
http://www.lotrplaza.com/archives/index.php?Archive=Second%20Age&TID=212755
If that is at all accurate, maybe it is the end of the string you might need
to find the actual JRRT quote?
Thank you! I'll read the link and see if it leads me anywhere.

As to the Elves being characteristically beardless ... except for
Cirdan the Shipwright. I don't know how that came about; perhaps
Cirdan dates from early on in Tolkien's creativity and he just didn't
notice when it came to proofing _RotK_?
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Kevrob
2017-03-05 15:35:04 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Kevrob
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Jack Bohn
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
I would say Howard is probably as influential as Tolkien. Not saying he's
better, just that probably as much or more current fantasy has Conan in
its gene pool as has Frodo.
Oh, that Howard. My initial thought was that you were being excessively
familiar with Howard Phillip Lovecraft. Not to start an argument on
genre, but, while he was more a horror writer, his influence was from
the parts where he was going for more than the frisson of terror. Of
course, he was in correspondence with Robert E. Howard, but by a
non-transitive property, the influences on The Major Influences might
not themselves be Major Influences.
We know C.S. Lewis read the pulps, is there any reference of Tolkien
knowing about Lovecraft?
Not to my knowledge. I do know that in the late 1930s Lewis and
Tolkien agreed that they would each write a work of science
fiction or fantasy. Lewis chose SF and wrote _Out of the Silent
Planet_ (and later, its two sequels). Tolkien chose fantasy, and
wrote _Autrou and Itroun,_ based on a Breton folktale IIRC. I
have not read it.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Lay_of_Aotrou_and_Itroun
I observe that it was published in 2016 and it's in verse.
Digression: the hero of _Out of the Silent Planet_ and
_Perelandra_ is clearly based on Tolkien, and the bits of
otherworldly language are borrowed from Tolkien's Elvish
languages as Lewis had encountered them in Inklings meetings. By
the third volume, _That Hideous Strength_, the hero (same hero,
Professor Elwin Ransom) is clearly based on Charles Williams.
But there still appears a line in it regarding the otherworldly
language: "Not even in Numinor was it heard in the streets."
Lewis had heard the name Numenor at meetings, but never seen it
spelled.
I wish to Iluvatar somebody could put up a scannable version of
Tolkien's collected letters; I've gone through the volume several
times, looking for a chance remark he made, "The Dunedain were
beardless, a sign of their Elvish blood." I know it's in there
but haven't been able to find it a second time.
There's a mention of it in Untold Tales, in The History of Galadriel
[quote]
"In a note written in December 1972 or later, and among the last
writings of my father's on the subject of Middle-earth, there is
a discussion of the Elvish strain in Men, as to its being observable
in the beardlessness of those who were so descended (it was a characteristic
of all Elves to be beardless); and it is here noted in connection with
the princely house of Dol Amroth that "this line had a special Elvish
strain, according to its own legends" (with a reference to the speeches
between Legolas and Imrahil in The Return of the King V 9, cited above)."
(The History of Galadriel and Celeborn, UT)
[/quote] - posted by "Vugar"
http://www.lotrplaza.com/archives/index.php?Archive=Second%20Age&TID=212755
If that is at all accurate, maybe it is the end of the string you might need
to find the actual JRRT quote?
Thank you! I'll read the link and see if it leads me anywhere.
I managed to get the page from Google Books, nut not the flippin'
page #!

Try: http://preview.tinyurl.com/UT-Beardlessness

which gives you:

https://tinyurl.com/UT-Beardlessness

leading to:

https://books.google.com/books?id=5t4vfhasRVcC&pg=PT161&lpg=PT161&dq=beardlessness+of+those+who+were+so+descended&source=bl&ots=SlXj5Jej4j&sig=0cWD0jc-juzi48_2hvMbHR_Cgqs&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiTyseV17_SAhVD4YMKHQ5cDdcQ6AEIHjAA#v=onepage&q=beardlessness%20of%20those%20who%20were%20so%20descended&f=false
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
As to the Elves being characteristically beardless ... except for
Cirdan the Shipwright. I don't know how that came about; perhaps
Cirdan dates from early on in Tolkien's creativity and he just didn't
notice when it came to proofing _RotK_?
Good luck!

Kevin R
Dorothy J Heydt
2017-03-05 16:49:45 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Kevrob
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Jack Bohn
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
I would say Howard is probably as influential as Tolkien. Not
saying he's
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Kevrob
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Jack Bohn
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
better, just that probably as much or more current fantasy has Conan in
its gene pool as has Frodo.
Oh, that Howard. My initial thought was that you were being excessively
familiar with Howard Phillip Lovecraft. Not to start an argument on
genre, but, while he was more a horror writer, his influence was from
the parts where he was going for more than the frisson of terror. Of
course, he was in correspondence with Robert E. Howard, but by a
non-transitive property, the influences on The Major Influences might
not themselves be Major Influences.
We know C.S. Lewis read the pulps, is there any reference of Tolkien
knowing about Lovecraft?
Not to my knowledge. I do know that in the late 1930s Lewis and
Tolkien agreed that they would each write a work of science
fiction or fantasy. Lewis chose SF and wrote _Out of the Silent
Planet_ (and later, its two sequels). Tolkien chose fantasy, and
wrote _Autrou and Itroun,_ based on a Breton folktale IIRC. I
have not read it.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Lay_of_Aotrou_and_Itroun
I observe that it was published in 2016 and it's in verse.
Digression: the hero of _Out of the Silent Planet_ and
_Perelandra_ is clearly based on Tolkien, and the bits of
otherworldly language are borrowed from Tolkien's Elvish
languages as Lewis had encountered them in Inklings meetings. By
the third volume, _That Hideous Strength_, the hero (same hero,
Professor Elwin Ransom) is clearly based on Charles Williams.
But there still appears a line in it regarding the otherworldly
language: "Not even in Numinor was it heard in the streets."
Lewis had heard the name Numenor at meetings, but never seen it
spelled.
I wish to Iluvatar somebody could put up a scannable version of
Tolkien's collected letters; I've gone through the volume several
times, looking for a chance remark he made, "The Dunedain were
beardless, a sign of their Elvish blood." I know it's in there
but haven't been able to find it a second time.
There's a mention of it in Untold Tales, in The History of Galadriel
[quote]
"In a note written in December 1972 or later, and among the last
writings of my father's on the subject of Middle-earth, there is
a discussion of the Elvish strain in Men, as to its being observable
in the beardlessness of those who were so descended (it was a characteristic
of all Elves to be beardless); and it is here noted in connection with
the princely house of Dol Amroth that "this line had a special Elvish
strain, according to its own legends" (with a reference to the speeches
between Legolas and Imrahil in The Return of the King V 9, cited above)."
(The History of Galadriel and Celeborn, UT)
[/quote] - posted by "Vugar"
http://www.lotrplaza.com/archives/index.php?Archive=Second%20Age&TID=212755
If that is at all accurate, maybe it is the end of the string you might need
to find the actual JRRT quote?
Thank you! I'll read the link and see if it leads me anywhere.
I managed to get the page from Google Books, nut not the flippin'
page #!
Try: http://preview.tinyurl.com/UT-Beardlessness
https://tinyurl.com/UT-Beardlessness
https://books.google.com/books?id=5t4vfhasRVcC&pg=PT161&lpg=PT161&dq=beardlessness+of+those+who+were+so+descended&source=bl&ots=SlXj5Jej4j&sig=0cWD0jc-juzi48_2hvMbHR_Cgqs&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiTyseV17_SAhVD4YMKHQ5cDdcQ6AEIHjAA#v=onepage&q=beardlessness%20of%20those%20who%20were%20so%20descended&f=false
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
As to the Elves being characteristically beardless ... except for
Cirdan the Shipwright. I don't know how that came about; perhaps
Cirdan dates from early on in Tolkien's creativity and he just didn't
notice when it came to proofing _RotK_?
Good luck!
Aha, thanks!

If the whole world had been different and I had been filming LotR
instead of Jackson, both Aragorn and Faramir would have been
completely beardless (I suppose it would involve them shaving
very close every morning and then covering the inevitable daily
growth with make up). But *Boromir*, while showing up quite
clean-chinned at the Council of Elrond, (because he would've had
the opportunity to tweeze the night before) would have sprouted the
odd whisker over time on the journey south.

I also would've cast the same actor as both brothers. :)
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Kevrob
2017-03-05 20:53:30 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Kevrob
https://tinyurl.com/UT-Beardlessness
Aha, thanks!
If the whole world had been different and I had been filming LotR
instead of Jackson, both Aragorn and Faramir would have been
completely beardless (I suppose it would involve them shaving
very close every morning and then covering the inevitable daily
growth with make up). But *Boromir*, while showing up quite
clean-chinned at the Council of Elrond, (because he would've had
the opportunity to tweeze the night before) would have sprouted the
odd whisker over time on the journey south.
I also would've cast the same actor as both brothers. :)
They aren't twins, though. Cast actual brothers? That would
have meant no Sean Bean. He was usually clean-shaven as
Lt Sharpe, at least before he and the rifle company marched
out and after they marched back again, so, Aragorn?

Choosing the brothers would be the hard part. NOT the Wilsons.
The Hemsworths? Chris, who plays Thor for Marvel, might have
made a good Eomer.

Kevin R
Dorothy J Heydt
2017-03-06 02:35:50 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Kevrob
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Kevrob
https://tinyurl.com/UT-Beardlessness
Aha, thanks!
If the whole world had been different and I had been filming LotR
instead of Jackson, both Aragorn and Faramir would have been
completely beardless (I suppose it would involve them shaving
very close every morning and then covering the inevitable daily
growth with make up). But *Boromir*, while showing up quite
clean-chinned at the Council of Elrond, (because he would've had
the opportunity to tweeze the night before) would have sprouted the
odd whisker over time on the journey south.
I also would've cast the same actor as both brothers. :)
They aren't twins, though.
No, but so close in resemblance that Frodo is shocked when he
sees Faramir for the first time. I would have Faramir's hair
rather shorter (he hasn't been out in the wilds all that long,
and has had a chance to hack off a few inches on occasion,
whereas Boromir has been on the road for seven weeks when he dies
(how fast does hair grow, anyway? I never cut mine so I really
don't know.)

Cast actual brothers? That would
Post by Kevrob
have meant no Sean Bean.
I can do without Sean Bean, thanks, his Boromir was positively
smarmy. Boromir is not smarmy. He's a tragic hero, and his
tragic flaw is envy.

He was usually clean-shaven as
Post by Kevrob
Lt Sharpe, at least before he and the rifle company marched
out and after they marched back again, so, Aragorn?
Choosing the brothers would be the hard part. NOT the Wilsons.
The Hemsworths? Chris, who plays Thor for Marvel, might have
made a good Eomer.
I have seen about ten seconds' worth of him, at the very end of
Docrot Strange. I agree, he looks like a Rohir.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Jerry Brown
2017-03-06 10:55:23 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Kevrob
Choosing the brothers would be the hard part. NOT the Wilsons.
The Hemsworths? Chris, who plays Thor for Marvel, might have
made a good Eomer.
I have seen about ten seconds' worth of him, at the very end of
Docrot Strange. I agree, he looks like a Rohir.
He also plays Kirk Snr in the pre-credits scenes of Star Trek 2009 (if
you saw that).
--
Jerry Brown

A cat may look at a king
(but probably won't bother)
Dorothy J Heydt
2017-03-06 11:52:04 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Jerry Brown
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Kevrob
Choosing the brothers would be the hard part. NOT the Wilsons.
The Hemsworths? Chris, who plays Thor for Marvel, might have
made a good Eomer.
I have seen about ten seconds' worth of him, at the very end of
Docrot Strange. I agree, he looks like a Rohir.
He also plays Kirk Snr in the pre-credits scenes of Star Trek 2009 (if
you saw that).
I didn't. I don't have a television set (I know I had one during
9/11, when the San Francisco CBS channel mirrored the New York
CBS channel for several days), but it died sometime after that.
I also don't go to movies much -- I'm old and tired and
house-bound -- unless my daughter and son-in-law take me to one.
I think in the last several years I've seen Inside Out and Doctor
Strange.

I do buy the occasional DVD and watch that; chiefly Doctor Who.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Dimensional Traveler
2017-03-06 15:46:10 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Jerry Brown
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Kevrob
Choosing the brothers would be the hard part. NOT the Wilsons.
The Hemsworths? Chris, who plays Thor for Marvel, might have
made a good Eomer.
I have seen about ten seconds' worth of him, at the very end of
Docrot Strange. I agree, he looks like a Rohir.
He also plays Kirk Snr in the pre-credits scenes of Star Trek 2009 (if
you saw that).
I didn't. I don't have a television set (I know I had one during
9/11, when the San Francisco CBS channel mirrored the New York
CBS channel for several days), but it died sometime after that.
I also don't go to movies much -- I'm old and tired and
house-bound -- unless my daughter and son-in-law take me to one.
I think in the last several years I've seen Inside Out and Doctor
Strange.
I do buy the occasional DVD and watch that; chiefly Doctor Who.
If you have ANY pleasant memories of the original Star Trek, do not see
any of the Abrams movies.
--
Running the rec.arts.TV Channels Watched Survey.
Winter 2016 survey began Dec 01 and will end Feb 28
Ted Nolan <tednolan>
2017-03-06 16:07:30 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Dimensional Traveler
If you have ANY pleasant memories of the original Star Trek, do not see
any of the Abrams movies.
Disagree. The first one was pretty good.

The second one, not so much.

The third one was "ok", like an average episode with some nice laughs,
especially the one on Spock and his gift.
--
------
columbiaclosings.com
What's not in Columbia anymore..
Dorothy J Heydt
2017-03-06 16:54:45 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Dimensional Traveler
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Jerry Brown
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Kevrob
Choosing the brothers would be the hard part. NOT the Wilsons.
The Hemsworths? Chris, who plays Thor for Marvel, might have
made a good Eomer.
I have seen about ten seconds' worth of him, at the very end of
Docrot Strange. I agree, he looks like a Rohir.
He also plays Kirk Snr in the pre-credits scenes of Star Trek 2009 (if
you saw that).
I didn't. I don't have a television set (I know I had one during
9/11, when the San Francisco CBS channel mirrored the New York
CBS channel for several days), but it died sometime after that.
I also don't go to movies much -- I'm old and tired and
house-bound -- unless my daughter and son-in-law take me to one.
I think in the last several years I've seen Inside Out and Doctor
Strange.
I do buy the occasional DVD and watch that; chiefly Doctor Who.
If you have ANY pleasant memories of the original Star Trek, do not see
any of the Abrams movies.
Hadn't planned to.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)
2017-03-07 12:11:52 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Dimensional Traveler
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Jerry Brown
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Kevrob
Choosing the brothers would be the hard part. NOT the Wilsons.
The Hemsworths? Chris, who plays Thor for Marvel, might have
made a good Eomer.
I have seen about ten seconds' worth of him, at the very end of
Docrot Strange. I agree, he looks like a Rohir.
He also plays Kirk Snr in the pre-credits scenes of Star Trek 2009 (if
you saw that).
I didn't. I don't have a television set (I know I had one during
9/11, when the San Francisco CBS channel mirrored the New York
CBS channel for several days), but it died sometime after that.
I also don't go to movies much -- I'm old and tired and
house-bound -- unless my daughter and son-in-law take me to one.
I think in the last several years I've seen Inside Out and Doctor
Strange.
I do buy the occasional DVD and watch that; chiefly Doctor Who.
If you have ANY pleasant memories of the original Star Trek, do not see
any of the Abrams movies.
Unless you do have pleasant memories of the original Trek and like the
Abrams movies too, of course.
--
Sea Wasp
/^\
;;;
Website: http://www.grandcentralarena.com Blog:
http://seawasp.livejournal.com
David DeLaney
2017-03-06 11:30:45 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
(how fast does hair grow, anyway? I never cut mine so I really
don't know.)
Half an inch a month is the figure I know, and it seems to be at least close
considering my own hair/beard growth.

Dave, tonsor, said the tonsor
--
\/David DeLaney posting thru EarthLink - "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
gatekeeper.vic.com/~dbd - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.
Robert Bannister
2017-03-07 02:44:04 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by David DeLaney
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
(how fast does hair grow, anyway? I never cut mine so I really
don't know.)
Half an inch a month is the figure I know, and it seems to be at least close
considering my own hair/beard growth.
Dave, tonsor, said the tonsor
Back in the 70s, when long hair was fashionable, I discovered that my
hair never quite reached my shoulders, whereas some of my mates had hair
hanging to halfway down their backs. Similarly, my beard never got
really long, not even during the five months travel to Australia when it
never got trimmed at all. Again, I can think of a couple for friends
with beards down almost to their navels.
--
Robert B. born England a long time ago;
Western Australia since 1972
Robert Bannister
2017-03-04 02:47:15 UTC
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Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Post by Moriarty
<snip>
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by a***@gmail.com
Is LOTR the most influential work of fantasy?
Quite possibly. Before Tolkien there were Willaim Morris and E.
R. Eddison, who had some influence on the form.
Tolkien's the giant of 20th century fantasy but you could certainly
argue that Geoffrey of Monmouth, Chrétien de Troyes and Thomas Malory
were just as influential. The King Arthur legend certainly inspired much
of modern fantasy, including Tolkien himself.
I agree with you. In the 20th century, Tolkien is most influential.
There are many movies based on the legend of King Arthur, but none as
visually stunning as LOTR. Are there any good Arthur games?
Abhinav Lal
Writer & Investor
Post by Moriarty
Homer has a similar claim.
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by a***@gmail.com
LOTR remains my favourite work of fantasy. What is your favourite work of fantasy?
Oh, I'm with you. Tolkien all the way.
AOL.
-Moriarty
I would say Howard is probably as influential as Tolkien. Not saying he's
better, just that probably as much or more current fantasy has Conan in
its gene pool as has Frodo.
I would be surprised if as many people had read him.
--
Robert B. born England a long time ago;
Western Australia since 1972
Dorothy J Heydt
2017-03-04 02:52:01 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Robert Bannister
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Post by Moriarty
<snip>
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by a***@gmail.com
Is LOTR the most influential work of fantasy?
Quite possibly. Before Tolkien there were Willaim Morris and E.
R. Eddison, who had some influence on the form.
Tolkien's the giant of 20th century fantasy but you could certainly
argue that Geoffrey of Monmouth, Chrétien de Troyes and Thomas Malory
were just as influential. The King Arthur legend certainly inspired much
of modern fantasy, including Tolkien himself.
I agree with you. In the 20th century, Tolkien is most influential.
There are many movies based on the legend of King Arthur, but none as
visually stunning as LOTR. Are there any good Arthur games?
Abhinav Lal
Writer & Investor
Post by Moriarty
Homer has a similar claim.
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by a***@gmail.com
LOTR remains my favourite work of fantasy. What is your favourite work
of fantasy?
Oh, I'm with you. Tolkien all the way.
AOL.
-Moriarty
I would say Howard is probably as influential as Tolkien. Not saying he's
better, just that probably as much or more current fantasy has Conan in
its gene pool as has Frodo.
I would be surprised if as many people had read him.
Well, I've read him. A neighbor (when I was in my teens) had all
the old Gnome Press editiions, and I borrowed and read them. I
later picked up paperbacks of the ones by de Camp (good) and
Carter (not so good). I don't know if I have any of them any
more.

Actually, I bet I gave up reading Howard when I discovered
Tolkien.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Lawrence Watt-Evans
2017-03-04 04:15:46 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On Sat, 4 Mar 2017 10:47:15 +0800, Robert Bannister
Post by Robert Bannister
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
I would say Howard is probably as influential as Tolkien. Not saying he's
better, just that probably as much or more current fantasy has Conan in
its gene pool as has Frodo.
I would be surprised if as many people had read him.
Ah, but how many have read his imitators? "Influential" and
"widely-read" are different (albeit overlapping) sets.
--
My webpage is at http://www.watt-evans.com
Jack Bohn
2017-03-04 14:43:30 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Lawrence Watt-Evans
On Sat, 4 Mar 2017 10:47:15 +0800, Robert Bannister
Post by Robert Bannister
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
I would say Howard is probably as influential as Tolkien. Not saying he's
better, just that probably as much or more current fantasy has Conan in
its gene pool as has Frodo.
I would be surprised if as many people had read him.
Ah, but how many have read his imitators? "Influential" and
"widely-read" are different (albeit overlapping) sets.
You remind me that T.H. White threw a Conan reference into _The Once and Future King_ (or, at least, one of the component books, I hope it wasn't edited out of the compilation). It was pointed out by, I think, Lin Carter.
--
-Jack
Dorothy J Heydt
2017-03-04 16:06:09 UTC
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Raw Message
Post by Jack Bohn
Post by Lawrence Watt-Evans
On Sat, 4 Mar 2017 10:47:15 +0800, Robert Bannister
Post by Robert Bannister
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
I would say Howard is probably as influential as Tolkien. Not saying he's
better, just that probably as much or more current fantasy has Conan in
its gene pool as has Frodo.
I would be surprised if as many people had read him.
Ah, but how many have read his imitators? "Influential" and
"widely-read" are different (albeit overlapping) sets.
You remind me that T.H. White threw a Conan reference into _The Once and
Future King_ (or, at least, one of the component books, I hope it wasn't
edited out of the compilation). It was pointed out by, I think, Lin
Carter.
Gosh. I've read those books more than a few times, and if the
reference is still in there it went in one eye and out the other.
Can you find a specific cite?
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Jack Bohn
2017-03-04 18:24:24 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Jack Bohn
You remind me that T.H. White threw a Conan reference into _The Once and
Future King_ (or, at least, one of the component books, I hope it wasn't
edited out of the compilation). It was pointed out by, I think, Lin
Carter.
Gosh. I've read those books more than a few times, and if the
reference is still in there it went in one eye and out the other.
Can you find a specific cite?
I think I remember where I last saw my copy, I hope it wasn't because I had an idea to move it...

Here we go.
Chapter V of _The Queen of Air and Darkness_ (as printed in OaFK), her brood of future knights and troublemakers want a story, Gawaine suggests: "about the great Conan who was enchanted to a chair. He was stuck on it, whatever, and they could not get him off. So they pulled him from it by force, and then there was a necessity on them to graft a piece of skin on his bottom -- but it was sheepskin, and from thenceforth the stockings worn by the Fianna were made from the wool which grew on Conan!"


Of course, these days, when "research" can be done on a whim, I can find out who the Fianna are, and I see they have a hero known as Conan mac Morna who seems much more likely for this adventure than Howard's.
--
-Jack
Robert Carnegie
2017-03-04 21:30:04 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Jack Bohn
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Jack Bohn
You remind me that T.H. White threw a Conan reference into _The Once and
Future King_ (or, at least, one of the component books, I hope it wasn't
edited out of the compilation). It was pointed out by, I think, Lin
Carter.
Gosh. I've read those books more than a few times, and if the
reference is still in there it went in one eye and out the other.
Can you find a specific cite?
I think I remember where I last saw my copy, I hope it wasn't because I had an idea to move it...
Here we go.
Chapter V of _The Queen of Air and Darkness_ (as printed in OaFK), her brood of future knights and troublemakers want a story, Gawaine suggests: "about the great Conan who was enchanted to a chair. He was stuck on it, whatever, and they could not get him off. So they pulled him from it by force, and then there was a necessity on them to graft a piece of skin on his bottom -- but it was sheepskin, and from thenceforth the stockings worn by the Fianna were made from the wool which grew on Conan!"
I, uh, don't remember that adventure.

I believe that isn't how Lewis had _The Silver Chair_
turn out, either, but it was a while.
Post by Jack Bohn
Of course, these days, when "research" can be done on a whim, I can find out who the Fianna are, and I see they have a hero known as Conan mac Morna who seems much more likely for this adventure than Howard's.
And likely to ask people not to talk about it?
Dorothy J Heydt
2017-03-05 00:50:02 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Jack Bohn
Post by Jack Bohn
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Jack Bohn
You remind me that T.H. White threw a Conan reference into _The Once and
Future King_ (or, at least, one of the component books, I hope it wasn't
edited out of the compilation). It was pointed out by, I think, Lin
Carter.
Gosh. I've read those books more than a few times, and if the
reference is still in there it went in one eye and out the other.
Can you find a specific cite?
I think I remember where I last saw my copy, I hope it wasn't because
I had an idea to move it...
Post by Jack Bohn
Here we go.
Chapter V of _The Queen of Air and Darkness_ (as printed in OaFK), her
brood of future knights and troublemakers want a story, Gawaine
suggests: "about the great Conan who was enchanted to a chair. He was
stuck on it, whatever, and they could not get him off. So they pulled
him from it by force, and then there was a necessity on them to graft a
piece of skin on his bottom -- but it was sheepskin, and from
thenceforth the stockings worn by the Fianna were made from the wool
which grew on Conan!"
I, uh, don't remember that adventure.
I believe that isn't how Lewis had _The Silver Chair_
turn out, either, but it was a while.
No, but intesting to see that he borrowed that element. Also
Milton's _Comus_, in which the maiden is bound to a chair by the
villainous demon (but that's all he can do to her because she is
chaste), and her brothers have to call on Sabrina fair to loose her.

ObFantasy: Stevermer, _A Scholar of Magics_.)

/grabs _Silver Chair_

The children and Puddleglum resist Rilian's entreaties to release
him from the chair, and go on resisting till he calls on the name
of Aslan. "It's the third sign," Jill says, and they release
him, and he draws his sword and smashes the chair to pieces.

Then the Green Lady tries to convince the good guys that Narnia
doesn't exist, et cetera. Puddleglum delivers his magnificent
_Credo_ (played by Tom Baker in the movie):

"Suppose we *have* only dreamed, or made up, all those things --
trees and grass and sun and moon and stars and Aslan himself.
Suppose we have. Then all I can say is that, in that case, the
made-up things seem a good deal more important than the real
ones. Suppose this black pit of a kingdom of yours *is* the only
world. Well, it strikes me as a pretty poor one. And that's a
funny thing, when you come to think of it. We're just babies
making up a game, if you're right. But four babies making up a
game can make a play-world which licks your real world hollow.
That's why I'm going to stand by the play-world. I'm on Aslan's
side, even if there isn't any Aslan to lead it. I'm going to
live as like a Narnian as I can, even if there isn't any Narnia."

Whereupon the Green Lady turns back into a serpent and they kill
it.
Post by Jack Bohn
Post by Jack Bohn
Of course, these days, when "research" can be done on a whim, I can
find out who the Fianna are, and I see they have a hero known as Conan
mac Morna who seems much more likely for this adventure than Howard's.
And likely to ask people not to talk about it?
An Irish hero to ask people not to talk about his heroic feats?
Doesn't sound anything like in character.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Cryptoengineer
2017-03-05 02:44:33 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Jack Bohn
Post by Jack Bohn
In article
Post by Jack Bohn
You remind me that T.H. White threw a Conan reference into _The
Once and Future King_ (or, at least, one of the component books,
I hope it wasn't edited out of the compilation). It was pointed
out by, I think, Lin Carter.
Gosh. I've read those books more than a few times, and if the
reference is still in there it went in one eye and out the other.
Can you find a specific cite?
I think I remember where I last saw my copy, I hope it wasn't because
I had an idea to move it...
Post by Jack Bohn
Here we go.
Chapter V of _The Queen of Air and Darkness_ (as printed in OaFK), her
brood of future knights and troublemakers want a story, Gawaine
suggests: "about the great Conan who was enchanted to a chair. He was
stuck on it, whatever, and they could not get him off. So they pulled
him from it by force, and then there was a necessity on them to graft
a piece of skin on his bottom -- but it was sheepskin, and from
thenceforth the stockings worn by the Fianna were made from the wool
which grew on Conan!"
I, uh, don't remember that adventure.
I believe that isn't how Lewis had _The Silver Chair_
turn out, either, but it was a while.
No, but intesting to see that he borrowed that element. Also
Milton's _Comus_, in which the maiden is bound to a chair by the
villainous demon (but that's all he can do to her because she is
chaste), and her brothers have to call on Sabrina fair to loose her.
ObFantasy: Stevermer, _A Scholar of Magics_.)
/grabs _Silver Chair_
The children and Puddleglum resist Rilian's entreaties to release
him from the chair, and go on resisting till he calls on the name
of Aslan. "It's the third sign," Jill says, and they release
him, and he draws his sword and smashes the chair to pieces.
Then the Green Lady tries to convince the good guys that Narnia
doesn't exist, et cetera. Puddleglum delivers his magnificent
"Suppose we *have* only dreamed, or made up, all those things --
trees and grass and sun and moon and stars and Aslan himself.
Suppose we have. Then all I can say is that, in that case, the
made-up things seem a good deal more important than the real
ones. Suppose this black pit of a kingdom of yours *is* the only
world. Well, it strikes me as a pretty poor one. And that's a
funny thing, when you come to think of it. We're just babies
making up a game, if you're right. But four babies making up a
game can make a play-world which licks your real world hollow.
That's why I'm going to stand by the play-world. I'm on Aslan's
side, even if there isn't any Aslan to lead it. I'm going to
live as like a Narnian as I can, even if there isn't any Narnia."
Whereupon the Green Lady turns back into a serpent and they kill
it.
Yayyyy!

pt
Robert Carnegie
2017-03-05 05:28:35 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Jack Bohn
Post by Jack Bohn
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Jack Bohn
You remind me that T.H. White threw a Conan reference into _The Once and
Future King_ (or, at least, one of the component books, I hope it wasn't
edited out of the compilation). It was pointed out by, I think, Lin
Carter.
Gosh. I've read those books more than a few times, and if the
reference is still in there it went in one eye and out the other.
Can you find a specific cite?
I think I remember where I last saw my copy, I hope it wasn't because
I had an idea to move it...
Post by Jack Bohn
Here we go.
Chapter V of _The Queen of Air and Darkness_ (as printed in OaFK), her
brood of future knights and troublemakers want a story, Gawaine
suggests: "about the great Conan who was enchanted to a chair. He was
stuck on it, whatever, and they could not get him off. So they pulled
him from it by force, and then there was a necessity on them to graft a
piece of skin on his bottom -- but it was sheepskin, and from
thenceforth the stockings worn by the Fianna were made from the wool
which grew on Conan!"
I, uh, don't remember that adventure.
I believe that isn't how Lewis had _The Silver Chair_
turn out, either, but it was a while.
No, but interesting to see that he borrowed that element. Also
Milton's _Comus_, in which the maiden is bound to a chair by the
villainous demon (but that's all he can do to her because she is
chaste), and her brothers have to call on Sabrina fair to loose her.
ObFantasy: Stevermer, _A Scholar of Magics_.)
It could be independently devising a story where
someone sits in a chair and can't get out of it.
And it occurs to me how a senior writer - or a
writer from the University of Oxford, surrounded
by very senior staff could think of that.

When was skin grafting actually possible?
Maybe in the Second World War?
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guinea_Pig_Club>
(But not inter-species - I think. And it
probably /would/ be pig, if so.)

Some commentator - it may have been Mark Twain -
argued that the sense of humour in stories about
Camelot and the like is sometimes pretty low.
Ah. Apparently if the wrong person sits in the
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_Perilous>
they die. Sir Galahad perhaps was not told this,
and however many others before him. I assume
that's how they know it happens.

In science fiction it's usually that automatic
restraints pop out of the chair and restrain one
or both hands and feet like the electric chair,
before whatever happens next, such as vivisection.

In the radio _Hitch Hiker's Guide to the Galaxy_
there's one that eats people.
<http://www.clivebanks.co.uk/THHGTTG/THHGTTGradio6.htm>

"Is it safe", indeed. Shame on you, Douglas Adams. ;-)

And in _Doctor Who - Terror of the Autons_.
<http://www.doctorwho.tv/whats-new/video/death-by-chair/>

Which there were complaints about. It just occurred
to me that you couldn't even watch the show from the
traditional position of hiding behind your parents'
couch, then. The couch would be eating them.
/grabs _Silver Chair_
The children and Puddleglum resist Rilian's entreaties to release
him from the chair, and go on resisting till he calls on the name
of Aslan. "It's the third sign," Jill says, and they release
him, and he draws his sword and smashes the chair to pieces.
Then the Green Lady tries to convince the good guys that Narnia
doesn't exist, et cetera. Puddleglum delivers his magnificent
"Suppose we *have* only dreamed, or made up, all those things --
trees and grass and sun and moon and stars and Aslan himself.
Suppose we have. Then all I can say is that, in that case, the
made-up things seem a good deal more important than the real
ones. Suppose this black pit of a kingdom of yours *is* the only
world. Well, it strikes me as a pretty poor one. And that's a
funny thing, when you come to think of it. We're just babies
making up a game, if you're right. But four babies making up a
game can make a play-world which licks your real world hollow.
That's why I'm going to stand by the play-world. I'm on Aslan's
side, even if there isn't any Aslan to lead it. I'm going to
live as like a Narnian as I can, even if there isn't any Narnia."
Whereupon the Green Lady turns back into a serpent and they kill
it.
Post by Jack Bohn
Post by Jack Bohn
Of course, these days, when "research" can be done on a whim, I can
find out who the Fianna are, and I see they have a hero known as Conan
mac Morna who seems much more likely for this adventure than Howard's.
And likely to ask people not to talk about it?
An Irish hero to ask people not to talk about his heroic feats?
Doesn't sound anything like in character.
This isn't heroic feet, it is an un-heroic butt.

And when you boasted of your other great deeds,
some people in the tavern would cheer, and some
would say "Baaah!" Or they's sing, "Hello, Dolly".
Dorothy J Heydt
2017-03-05 05:59:28 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by Jack Bohn
Post by Jack Bohn
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Jack Bohn
You remind me that T.H. White threw a Conan reference into _The Once and
Future King_ (or, at least, one of the component books, I hope it wasn't
edited out of the compilation). It was pointed out by, I think, Lin
Carter.
Gosh. I've read those books more than a few times, and if the
reference is still in there it went in one eye and out the other.
Can you find a specific cite?
I think I remember where I last saw my copy, I hope it wasn't because
I had an idea to move it...
Post by Jack Bohn
Here we go.
Chapter V of _The Queen of Air and Darkness_ (as printed in OaFK), her
brood of future knights and troublemakers want a story, Gawaine
suggests: "about the great Conan who was enchanted to a chair. He was
stuck on it, whatever, and they could not get him off. So they pulled
him from it by force, and then there was a necessity on them to graft a
piece of skin on his bottom -- but it was sheepskin, and from
thenceforth the stockings worn by the Fianna were made from the wool
which grew on Conan!"
I, uh, don't remember that adventure.
I believe that isn't how Lewis had _The Silver Chair_
turn out, either, but it was a while.
No, but interesting to see that he borrowed that element. Also
Milton's _Comus_, in which the maiden is bound to a chair by the
villainous demon (but that's all he can do to her because she is
chaste), and her brothers have to call on Sabrina fair to loose her.
ObFantasy: Stevermer, _A Scholar of Magics_.)
It could be independently devising a story where
someone sits in a chair and can't get out of it.
And it occurs to me how a senior writer - or a
writer from the University of Oxford, surrounded
by very senior staff could think of that.
When was skin grafting actually possible?
Maybe in the Second World War?
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guinea_Pig_Club>
(But not inter-species - I think. And it
probably /would/ be pig, if so.)
Some commentator - it may have been Mark Twain -
argued that the sense of humour in stories about
Camelot and the like is sometimes pretty low.
Ah. Apparently if the wrong person sits in the
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_Perilous>
they die. Sir Galahad perhaps was not told this,
and however many others before him. I assume
that's how they know it happens.
In science fiction it's usually that automatic
restraints pop out of the chair and restrain one
or both hands and feet like the electric chair,
before whatever happens next, such as vivisection.
In the radio _Hitch Hiker's Guide to the Galaxy_
there's one that eats people.
<http://www.clivebanks.co.uk/THHGTTG/THHGTTGradio6.htm>
"Is it safe", indeed. Shame on you, Douglas Adams. ;-)
And in _Doctor Who - Terror of the Autons_.
<http://www.doctorwho.tv/whats-new/video/death-by-chair/>
Which there were complaints about. It just occurred
to me that you couldn't even watch the show from the
traditional position of hiding behind your parents'
couch, then. The couch would be eating them.
/grabs _Silver Chair_
The children and Puddleglum resist Rilian's entreaties to release
him from the chair, and go on resisting till he calls on the name
of Aslan. "It's the third sign," Jill says, and they release
him, and he draws his sword and smashes the chair to pieces.
Then the Green Lady tries to convince the good guys that Narnia
doesn't exist, et cetera. Puddleglum delivers his magnificent
"Suppose we *have* only dreamed, or made up, all those things --
trees and grass and sun and moon and stars and Aslan himself.
Suppose we have. Then all I can say is that, in that case, the
made-up things seem a good deal more important than the real
ones. Suppose this black pit of a kingdom of yours *is* the only
world. Well, it strikes me as a pretty poor one. And that's a
funny thing, when you come to think of it. We're just babies
making up a game, if you're right. But four babies making up a
game can make a play-world which licks your real world hollow.
That's why I'm going to stand by the play-world. I'm on Aslan's
side, even if there isn't any Aslan to lead it. I'm going to
live as like a Narnian as I can, even if there isn't any Narnia."
Whereupon the Green Lady turns back into a serpent and they kill
it.
Post by Jack Bohn
Post by Jack Bohn
Of course, these days, when "research" can be done on a whim, I can
find out who the Fianna are, and I see they have a hero known as Conan
mac Morna who seems much more likely for this adventure than Howard's.
And likely to ask people not to talk about it?
An Irish hero to ask people not to talk about his heroic feats?
Doesn't sound anything like in character.
This isn't heroic feet, it is an un-heroic butt.
And when you boasted of your other great deeds,
some people in the tavern would cheer, and some
would say "Baaah!" Or they's sing, "Hello, Dolly".
Heh. Beowulf, in Hrothgar's hall, hadn't even *mentioned* his own
heroic deed (having more important things to discuss), till Unferth
spoke up and said, "Awww, you never did that, you're a big
faker." *Then* Beowulf said, "Actually, I did; Breca and I made
a bet that we could swim the Skaggerak in full armour. I did all
right, only had to fight a bunch of water-monsters, but Breca was
caught in a current and swept up to Finland. You, Unferth, on
the other hand, are going to go to hell for killing your brother.
Now, returning to the matter at hand...."
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Jerry Brown
2017-03-05 07:58:48 UTC
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Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Then the Green Lady tries to convince the good guys that Narnia
doesn't exist, et cetera. Puddleglum delivers his magnificent
This was the 6 part 1990 BBC TV serial (US=="miniseries") version; was
this edited into a single feature length version in the US?
--
Jerry Brown

A cat may look at a king
(but probably won't bother)
David DeLaney
2017-03-06 11:32:36 UTC
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Post by Dorothy J Heydt
An Irish hero to ask people not to talk about his heroic feats?
Doesn't sound anything like in character.
Butt it wasn't his _feets_ what was involved, ma'am.

Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting thru EarthLink - "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
gatekeeper.vic.com/~dbd - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.
Dorothy J Heydt
2017-03-04 21:13:51 UTC
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Post by Jack Bohn
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Jack Bohn
You remind me that T.H. White threw a Conan reference into _The Once and
Future King_ (or, at least, one of the component books, I hope it wasn't
edited out of the compilation). It was pointed out by, I think, Lin
Carter.
Gosh. I've read those books more than a few times, and if the
reference is still in there it went in one eye and out the other.
Can you find a specific cite?
I think I remember where I last saw my copy, I hope it wasn't because I
had an idea to move it...
Here we go.
Chapter V of _The Queen of Air and Darkness_ (as printed in OaFK), her
brood of future knights and troublemakers want a story, Gawaine
suggests: "about the great Conan who was enchanted to a chair. He was
stuck on it, whatever, and they could not get him off. So they pulled
him from it by force, and then there was a necessity on them to graft a
piece of skin on his bottom -- but it was sheepskin, and from
thenceforth the stockings worn by the Fianna were made from the wool
which grew on Conan!"
OK, he *could* have been referencing the Howard character; Howard
started publishing in 1932, and White began his Arthurian stories
in 1938. So maybe. But considering White got most of his
sources from Sir Thomas Malory, plus assorted personal experience
(how to tame a falcon, e.g.), I wonder.
Post by Jack Bohn
Of course, these days, when "research" can be done on a whim, I can find
out who the Fianna are, and I see they have a hero known as Conan mac
Morna who seems much more likely for this adventure than Howard's.
There are several other legendary Conans as well. Consider
White got a great deal of his material from Malory and the Irish
legencary, which he proceeded to adapt to his own purposes,
coupled with personal experience -- e.g., how to tame a falcon, which
he did. (You stay up all night with the falcon, several days and
nights, until it's so tired that it agrees to sit on your wrist.
He did this himself.)
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Kevrob
2017-03-04 21:57:53 UTC
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Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Jack Bohn
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Jack Bohn
You remind me that T.H. White threw a Conan reference into _The Once and
Future King_ (or, at least, one of the component books, I hope it wasn't
edited out of the compilation). It was pointed out by, I think, Lin
Carter.
Gosh. I've read those books more than a few times, and if the
reference is still in there it went in one eye and out the other.
Can you find a specific cite?
I think I remember where I last saw my copy, I hope it wasn't because I
had an idea to move it...
Here we go.
Chapter V of _The Queen of Air and Darkness_ (as printed in OaFK), her
brood of future knights and troublemakers want a story, Gawaine
suggests: "about the great Conan who was enchanted to a chair. He was
stuck on it, whatever, and they could not get him off. So they pulled
him from it by force, and then there was a necessity on them to graft a
piece of skin on his bottom -- but it was sheepskin, and from
thenceforth the stockings worn by the Fianna were made from the wool
which grew on Conan!"
OK, he *could* have been referencing the Howard character; Howard
started publishing in 1932, and White began his Arthurian stories
in 1938. So maybe. But considering White got most of his
sources from Sir Thomas Malory, plus assorted personal experience
(how to tame a falcon, e.g.), I wonder.
Post by Jack Bohn
Of course, these days, when "research" can be done on a whim, I can find
out who the Fianna are, and I see they have a hero known as Conan mac
Morna who seems much more likely for this adventure than Howard's.
There are several other legendary Conans as well. Consider
White got a great deal of his material from Malory and the Irish
legencary, which he proceeded to adapt to his own purposes,
coupled with personal experience -- e.g., how to tame a falcon, which
he did. (You stay up all night with the falcon, several days and
nights, until it's so tired that it agrees to sit on your wrist.
He did this himself.)
Conan mac Morna was an ally of of Fionn mac Cumhaill,

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Con%C3%A1n_mac_Morna

and the Fianna band in question was supposed to be
contemporaneous with the Ard-Rí Cormac mac Airt.....

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cormac_mac_Airt

....a name Howard borrowed for a pirate in "Night of The Wolf,"
so his picking another name from the Fenian cycle does not
surprise.

Kevin R
Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)
2017-03-04 15:02:52 UTC
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Post by Lawrence Watt-Evans
On Sat, 4 Mar 2017 10:47:15 +0800, Robert Bannister
Post by Robert Bannister
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
I would say Howard is probably as influential as Tolkien. Not saying he's
better, just that probably as much or more current fantasy has Conan in
its gene pool as has Frodo.
I would be surprised if as many people had read him.
Ah, but how many have read his imitators? "Influential" and
"widely-read" are different (albeit overlapping) sets.
Yes. Doc Smith was and remains hugely influential in the SF field, but
currently at a remove -- he influenced authors X, Y, and Z, who
influenced authors A, B, C, D, E, F, G, H, I, J, and K, and those are
currently influencing authors across the entire possibility of
alphabets. But there's a lot of people who haven't read his work, and a
very large number who wouldn't like his work even if they heard of it,
for many reasons.

Similarly, anyone doing an Alien Invasion or Time Travel or Mad Genius
Against The World (or several other subgenres of SF) story is influenced
by Wells and/or Verne, but an awful lot of people have at best heard of
them but never read any of their stories.
--
Sea Wasp
/^\
;;;
Website: http://www.grandcentralarena.com Blog:
http://seawasp.livejournal.com
Dorothy J Heydt
2017-03-04 16:16:35 UTC
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Post by Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)
Post by Lawrence Watt-Evans
On Sat, 4 Mar 2017 10:47:15 +0800, Robert Bannister
Post by Robert Bannister
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
I would say Howard is probably as influential as Tolkien. Not saying he's
better, just that probably as much or more current fantasy has Conan in
its gene pool as has Frodo.
I would be surprised if as many people had read him.
Ah, but how many have read his imitators? "Influential" and
"widely-read" are different (albeit overlapping) sets.
Yes. Doc Smith was and remains hugely influential in the SF field, but
currently at a remove -- he influenced authors X, Y, and Z, who
influenced authors A, B, C, D, E, F, G, H, I, J, and K, and those are
currently influencing authors across the entire possibility of
alphabets. But there's a lot of people who haven't read his work, and a
very large number who wouldn't like his work even if they heard of it,
for many reasons.
Similarly, anyone doing an Alien Invasion or Time Travel or Mad Genius
Against The World (or several other subgenres of SF) story is influenced
by Wells and/or Verne, but an awful lot of people have at best heard of
them but never read any of their stories.
Or seen the movies. Several Vernes were done in the 1950s,
notably the Disney _20,000 Leagues_. George Pal did _The Time
Machine_ and _The War of the Worlds._

Of course, the one who made _TWotW_ famous was Orson Welles, in
1938. As you know, Bob, a fair few people tuned in late and thought
it was real.

There's an excellent docudrama about it, "The Night that Panicked
America," which is FINALLY out on DVD. First aired in 1975, it's
still breath-stopping in the appropriate places, and when I first
saw it ( had to keep reminding myself that in fact nobody died as
a result of their misapprehension.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Ted Nolan <tednolan>
2017-03-04 04:17:40 UTC
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Post by Robert Bannister
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Post by Moriarty
<snip>
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by a***@gmail.com
Is LOTR the most influential work of fantasy?
Quite possibly. Before Tolkien there were Willaim Morris and E.
R. Eddison, who had some influence on the form.
Tolkien's the giant of 20th century fantasy but you could certainly
argue that Geoffrey of Monmouth, Chrétien de Troyes and Thomas Malory
were just as influential. The King Arthur legend certainly inspired much
of modern fantasy, including Tolkien himself.
I agree with you. In the 20th century, Tolkien is most influential.
There are many movies based on the legend of King Arthur, but none as
visually stunning as LOTR. Are there any good Arthur games?
Abhinav Lal
Writer & Investor
Post by Moriarty
Homer has a similar claim.
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by a***@gmail.com
LOTR remains my favourite work of fantasy. What is your favourite work
of fantasy?
Oh, I'm with you. Tolkien all the way.
AOL.
-Moriarty
I would say Howard is probably as influential as Tolkien. Not saying he's
better, just that probably as much or more current fantasy has Conan in
its gene pool as has Frodo.
I would be surprised if as many people had read him.
So would I, but it's like the old joke about "The Velvet Underground": They
only sold 50 albums, but everyone who got one started a band.
--
------
columbiaclosings.com
What's not in Columbia anymore..
Kevrob
2017-03-04 05:16:43 UTC
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Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Post by Robert Bannister
I would be surprised if as many people had read him.
So would I, but it's like the old joke about "The Velvet Underground": They
only sold 50 albums, but everyone who got one started a band.
At least 10k. The earliest cite seems to be Brian Eno, who used
30k.

http://quoteinvestigator.com/2016/03/01/velvet/

Eventually, in the long haul, more than half a million.

http://www.billboard.com/biz/articles/news/legal-and-management/5770584/lou-reed-rip-what-if-everyone-who-bought-the-first

Kevin R
h***@gmail.com
2017-03-04 09:23:17 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Post by Robert Bannister
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Post by Moriarty
Post by Moriarty
<snip>
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by a***@gmail.com
Is LOTR the most influential work of fantasy?
Quite possibly. Before Tolkien there were Willaim Morris and E.
R. Eddison, who had some influence on the form.
Tolkien's the giant of 20th century fantasy but you could certainly
argue that Geoffrey of Monmouth, Chrétien de Troyes and Thomas Malory
were just as influential. The King Arthur legend certainly inspired much
of modern fantasy, including Tolkien himself.
I agree with you. In the 20th century, Tolkien is most influential.
There are many movies based on the legend of King Arthur, but none as
visually stunning as LOTR. Are there any good Arthur games?
Abhinav Lal
Writer & Investor
Post by Moriarty
Homer has a similar claim.
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by a***@gmail.com
LOTR remains my favourite work of fantasy. What is your favourite work
of fantasy?
Oh, I'm with you. Tolkien all the way.
AOL.
-Moriarty
I would say Howard is probably as influential as Tolkien. Not saying he's
better, just that probably as much or more current fantasy has Conan in
its gene pool as has Frodo.
I would be surprised if as many people had read him.
So would I, but it's like the old joke about "The Velvet Underground": They
only sold 50 albums, but everyone who got one started a band.
Actually I believe that's a reference to a show they did which a lot of the early punk bands mentioned as their inspiration
Juho Julkunen
2017-03-04 08:07:26 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
In article <***@mid.individual.net>, ***@clubtelco.com
says...
Post by Robert Bannister
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Post by Moriarty
<snip>
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by a***@gmail.com
Is LOTR the most influential work of fantasy?
Quite possibly. Before Tolkien there were Willaim Morris and E.
R. Eddison, who had some influence on the form.
Tolkien's the giant of 20th century fantasy but you could certainly
argue that Geoffrey of Monmouth, Chrétien de Troyes and Thomas Malory
were just as influential. The King Arthur legend certainly inspired much
of modern fantasy, including Tolkien himself.
I agree with you. In the 20th century, Tolkien is most influential.
There are many movies based on the legend of King Arthur, but none as
visually stunning as LOTR. Are there any good Arthur games?
Abhinav Lal
Writer & Investor
Post by Moriarty
Homer has a similar claim.
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by a***@gmail.com
LOTR remains my favourite work of fantasy. What is your favourite work
of fantasy?
Oh, I'm with you. Tolkien all the way.
AOL.
-Moriarty
I would say Howard is probably as influential as Tolkien. Not saying he's
better, just that probably as much or more current fantasy has Conan in
its gene pool as has Frodo.
I would be surprised if as many people had read him.
Tolkien did, though.
--
Juho Julkunen
Dorothy J Heydt
2017-03-04 16:17:29 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Juho Julkunen
says...
Post by Robert Bannister
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Post by Moriarty
<snip>
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by a***@gmail.com
Is LOTR the most influential work of fantasy?
Quite possibly. Before Tolkien there were Willaim Morris and E.
R. Eddison, who had some influence on the form.
Tolkien's the giant of 20th century fantasy but you could certainly
argue that Geoffrey of Monmouth, Chrétien de Troyes and Thomas Malory
were just as influential. The King Arthur legend certainly inspired much
of modern fantasy, including Tolkien himself.
I agree with you. In the 20th century, Tolkien is most influential.
There are many movies based on the legend of King Arthur, but none as
visually stunning as LOTR. Are there any good Arthur games?
Abhinav Lal
Writer & Investor
Post by Moriarty
Homer has a similar claim.
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by a***@gmail.com
LOTR remains my favourite work of fantasy. What is your favourite work
of fantasy?
Oh, I'm with you. Tolkien all the way.
AOL.
-Moriarty
I would say Howard is probably as influential as Tolkien. Not saying he's
better, just that probably as much or more current fantasy has Conan in
its gene pool as has Frodo.
I would be surprised if as many people had read him.
Tolkien did, though.
I would love to see a cite on that. It's not impossible, just
seems a smidge unlikely.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Ted Nolan <tednolan>
2017-03-04 17:03:53 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Juho Julkunen
says...
Post by Robert Bannister
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Post by Moriarty
<snip>
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by a***@gmail.com
Is LOTR the most influential work of fantasy?
Quite possibly. Before Tolkien there were Willaim Morris and E.
R. Eddison, who had some influence on the form.
Tolkien's the giant of 20th century fantasy but you could certainly
argue that Geoffrey of Monmouth, Chrétien de Troyes and Thomas Malory
were just as influential. The King Arthur legend certainly inspired much
of modern fantasy, including Tolkien himself.
I agree with you. In the 20th century, Tolkien is most influential.
There are many movies based on the legend of King Arthur, but none as
visually stunning as LOTR. Are there any good Arthur games?
Abhinav Lal
Writer & Investor
Post by Moriarty
Homer has a similar claim.
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by a***@gmail.com
LOTR remains my favourite work of fantasy. What is your favourite work
of fantasy?
Oh, I'm with you. Tolkien all the way.
AOL.
-Moriarty
I would say Howard is probably as influential as Tolkien. Not saying he's
better, just that probably as much or more current fantasy has Conan in
its gene pool as has Frodo.
I would be surprised if as many people had read him.
Tolkien did, though.
I would love to see a cite on that. It's not impossible, just
seems a smidge unlikely.
I know he wrote _Hour of the Dragon_ in the hopes of getting it published
in England, but that fell through iirc. Were any of his Conan stories
picked up over there? Otherwise you would have to have an English Don
reading disreputable American pulps.

Although, hmm, Tolkien lived until 1973. I suppose he could have caught
the first wave of reprints, but most of his writing was done by then.
--
------
columbiaclosings.com
What's not in Columbia anymore..
Dorothy J Heydt
2017-03-04 21:15:45 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by a***@gmail.com
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Juho Julkunen
says...
Post by Robert Bannister
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Post by Moriarty
<snip>
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by a***@gmail.com
Is LOTR the most influential work of fantasy?
Quite possibly. Before Tolkien there were Willaim Morris and E.
R. Eddison, who had some influence on the form.
Tolkien's the giant of 20th century fantasy but you could certainly
argue that Geoffrey of Monmouth, Chrétien de Troyes and Thomas Malory
were just as influential. The King Arthur legend certainly inspired much
of modern fantasy, including Tolkien himself.
I agree with you. In the 20th century, Tolkien is most influential.
There are many movies based on the legend of King Arthur, but none as
visually stunning as LOTR. Are there any good Arthur games?
Abhinav Lal
Writer & Investor
Post by Moriarty
Homer has a similar claim.
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by a***@gmail.com
LOTR remains my favourite work of fantasy. What is your
favourite work
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Juho Julkunen
Post by Robert Bannister
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Post by Moriarty
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by a***@gmail.com
of fantasy?
Oh, I'm with you. Tolkien all the way.
AOL.
-Moriarty
I would say Howard is probably as influential as Tolkien. Not saying he's
better, just that probably as much or more current fantasy has Conan in
its gene pool as has Frodo.
I would be surprised if as many people had read him.
Tolkien did, though.
I would love to see a cite on that. It's not impossible, just
seems a smidge unlikely.
I know he wrote _Hour of the Dragon_ in the hopes of getting it published
in England, but that fell through iirc. Were any of his Conan stories
picked up over there? Otherwise you would have to have an English Don
reading disreputable American pulps.
Not impossible. He read science fiction, which in Britain in his
day *automatically* fell under the category of "disreputable
American pulps."
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
The Last Doctor
2017-03-04 17:44:27 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Juho Julkunen
says...
Post by Robert Bannister
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Post by Moriarty
Post by Moriarty
<snip>
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by a***@gmail.com
Is LOTR the most influential work of fantasy?
Quite possibly. Before Tolkien there were Willaim Morris and E.
R. Eddison, who had some influence on the form.
Tolkien's the giant of 20th century fantasy but you could certainly
argue that Geoffrey of Monmouth, Chrétien de Troyes and Thomas Malory
were just as influential. The King Arthur legend certainly inspired much
of modern fantasy, including Tolkien himself.
I agree with you. In the 20th century, Tolkien is most influential.
There are many movies based on the legend of King Arthur, but none as
visually stunning as LOTR. Are there any good Arthur games?
Abhinav Lal
Writer & Investor
Post by Moriarty
Homer has a similar claim.
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by a***@gmail.com
LOTR remains my favourite work of fantasy. What is your favourite work
of fantasy?
Oh, I'm with you. Tolkien all the way.
AOL.
-Moriarty
I would say Howard is probably as influential as Tolkien. Not saying he's
better, just that probably as much or more current fantasy has Conan in
its gene pool as has Frodo.
I would be surprised if as many people had read him.
Tolkien did, though.
I would love to see a cite on that. It's not impossible, just
seems a smidge unlikely.
From L Sprague de Camp's

_Literary Swordsmen and Sorcerers: The Makers of Heroic Fantasy_:

"We sat in the garage for a couple of hours, smoking pipes, drinking beer,
and talking about a variety of things. Practically anything in English
literature, from Beowulf down, Tolkien had read and could talk
intelligently about. He indicated that he 'rather liked' Howard's Conan
stories."

A little apocryphal but Tolkien definitely at least read de Camp's
anthology _Swords and Sorcery_, which included the Conan story "Shadows in
the Moonlight", as evidenced by this auction:

http://www.tolkienlibrary.com/tolkien-book-store/000333.htm
Dorothy J Heydt
2017-03-04 21:20:32 UTC
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Post by The Last Doctor
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Juho Julkunen
says...
Post by Robert Bannister
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Post by Moriarty
<snip>
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by a***@gmail.com
Is LOTR the most influential work of fantasy?
Quite possibly. Before Tolkien there were Willaim Morris and E.
R. Eddison, who had some influence on the form.
Tolkien's the giant of 20th century fantasy but you could certainly
argue that Geoffrey of Monmouth, Chrétien de Troyes and Thomas Malory
were just as influential. The King Arthur legend certainly inspired much
of modern fantasy, including Tolkien himself.
I agree with you. In the 20th century, Tolkien is most influential.
There are many movies based on the legend of King Arthur, but none as
visually stunning as LOTR. Are there any good Arthur games?
Abhinav Lal
Writer & Investor
Post by Moriarty
Homer has a similar claim.
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by a***@gmail.com
LOTR remains my favourite work of fantasy. What is your favourite work
of fantasy?
Oh, I'm with you. Tolkien all the way.
AOL.
-Moriarty
I would say Howard is probably as influential as Tolkien. Not saying he's
better, just that probably as much or more current fantasy has Conan in
its gene pool as has Frodo.
I would be surprised if as many people had read him.
Tolkien did, though.
I would love to see a cite on that. It's not impossible, just
seems a smidge unlikely.
From L Sprague de Camp's
"We sat in the garage for a couple of hours, smoking pipes, drinking beer,
and talking about a variety of things. Practically anything in English
literature, from Beowulf down, Tolkien had read and could talk
intelligently about. He indicated that he 'rather liked' Howard's Conan
stories."
Hm! I tend to trust de Camp's scholarship, so I'm willing to
accept that.
Post by The Last Doctor
A little apocryphal but Tolkien definitely at least read de Camp's
anthology _Swords and Sorcery_, which included the Conan story "Shadows in
http://www.tolkienlibrary.com/tolkien-book-store/000333.htm
Yes, well, if one had the cash .... :(

(I do own a copy of _Swords and Sorcery_, I can recognize the
cover.)
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Juho Julkunen
2017-03-04 17:56:52 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Juho Julkunen
says...
Post by Robert Bannister
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Post by Moriarty
<snip>
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by a***@gmail.com
Is LOTR the most influential work of fantasy?
Quite possibly. Before Tolkien there were Willaim Morris and E.
R. Eddison, who had some influence on the form.
Tolkien's the giant of 20th century fantasy but you could certainly
argue that Geoffrey of Monmouth, Chrétien de Troyes and Thomas Malory
were just as influential. The King Arthur legend certainly inspired much
of modern fantasy, including Tolkien himself.
I agree with you. In the 20th century, Tolkien is most influential.
There are many movies based on the legend of King Arthur, but none as
visually stunning as LOTR. Are there any good Arthur games?
Abhinav Lal
Writer & Investor
Post by Moriarty
Homer has a similar claim.
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by a***@gmail.com
LOTR remains my favourite work of fantasy. What is your favourite work
of fantasy?
Oh, I'm with you. Tolkien all the way.
AOL.
-Moriarty
I would say Howard is probably as influential as Tolkien. Not saying he's
better, just that probably as much or more current fantasy has Conan in
its gene pool as has Frodo.
I would be surprised if as many people had read him.
Tolkien did, though.
I would love to see a cite on that. It's not impossible, just
seems a smidge unlikely.
I can't recall where I run into it, but according to Wikipedia:

In his book Literary Swordsmen and Sorcerers, de Camp describes an
interview with J. R. R. Tolkien in which he "indicated that he rather
liked Howard's Conan stories."

Wikipedia, yeah, but there is a (second hand) reference to be checked
at least.

Also:

http://thesilverkey.blogspot.fi/2011/04/sale-offers-proof-that-jrr-
tolkien.html
--
Juho Julkunen
Jack Bohn
2017-03-03 14:27:06 UTC
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Among the things Dorothy J Heydt wrote:

re: The Lord of the Rings Online, an MMORPG
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
The way it's structued, each region of Middle-earth is set in a
particular time. In the Shire it's always late September T.A.
3018, a few days after Frodo and company left Bag End. In
Rivendell, it's always December 24th (except for an instance in
which it's December 25 and the Company departs).
Always Christmas Eve and never Christmas? Are you sure you're in the right universe?
--
-Jack
Dorothy J Heydt
2017-03-03 16:06:33 UTC
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Post by Jack Bohn
re: The Lord of the Rings Online, an MMORPG
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
The way it's structued, each region of Middle-earth is set in a
particular time. In the Shire it's always late September T.A.
3018, a few days after Frodo and company left Bag End. In
Rivendell, it's always December 24th (except for an instance in
which it's December 25 and the Company departs).
Always Christmas Eve and never Christmas? Are you sure you're in the right universe?
*They're in the tail-end of the Third Age of Middle-earth.*
Christianity hasn't happened yet, and there is practically no
mention of any kind of religious observance. Christian morality
is at the basis of the Tolkien ethos, but he deliberately never
says so explicitly. The Hobbits celebrate Yule as a winter
festival, the Gondorians practice the Standing Silence, looking
"beyond Numenor to that which ever shall be," but they don't say
why. The Valar, who were present at and participated in the
creation of Ea, The World That Is, know much more but don't
reveal it.

What happens on December 25th is the instance in which the
Fellowship leaves Rivendell.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Jack Bohn
2017-03-03 19:43:18 UTC
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Come to think of it, C.S. Lewis explained how the lamppost got in _The Lion the Witch and the Wardrobe_, did he ever explain how Christmas did? Well, it was our Santa Claus, maybe he had crossed over for some other kids some other time before.
--
-Jack
David DeLaney
2017-03-06 11:28:07 UTC
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Post by Jack Bohn
Come to think of it, C.S. Lewis explained how the lamppost got in _The Lion
the Witch and the Wardrobe_, did he ever explain how Christmas did? Well, it
was our Santa Claus, maybe he had crossed over for some other kids some other
time before.
If you read the rest of that book, you might realize that the first King and
Queen of Narnia certainly knew all about Christmas as it was practiced in the
mid-19th century...

Dave, Newtonmas
--
\/David DeLaney posting thru EarthLink - "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
gatekeeper.vic.com/~dbd - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.
h***@gmail.com
2017-03-03 00:42:46 UTC
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Post by a***@gmail.com
When I mention the term, "fantasy", no one understands. But when I mention LOTR, people recognise it. LOTR is possibly bigger than the rest of the fantasy genre. Although there are many excellent works of fantasy, especially from the 1980s.
Is LOTR the most influential work of fantasy? I don't personally care for Harry Potter, or the Game of Thrones.
I'd say LotR, it was the story that really kicked off the growth in the fantasy genre.
Post by a***@gmail.com
LOTR remains my favourite work of fantasy. What is your favourite work of fantasy?
Hard call,
I'd probably say The Fionavar Tapestry but there are a heap of others that come into contention.
Dorothy J Heydt
2017-03-03 02:18:48 UTC
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Here's the articles comparing the styles of Morris, Eddison, and
Tolkien to which I referred upthread.

Note that this is quoted from two much earlier posts, and ought all
tohave >s in front of it, but I was too lazy to put them all in.

--------------------------------------------------------

From holly-***@home.com.xxx Tue May 22 16:13:35 PDT 2001
[remaining headers snipped]

After replying in the original thread mentioning that I'd argued for
Tolkien as having a plain style, I decided to dig up the section in my
dissertation where I made that argument.

Here I'm discussing the use of language in "classic" fantasy, and taking
examples from Morris, Eddison, and finally Tolkien to illustrate a shift
in style over time. I define what I mean as "classic fantasy" elsewhere
-- suffice for the purposes of this section to say that I'm talking
about early fantasy set in a secondary world.

---------------------

In the primary world, one of the main signs of being in a different
country is that the inhabitants speak a different language, or at least
speak one's own language with a different accent. It follows suit that
one of the most natural ways to show the reader that he or she is in a
different place-whether a different part of the world in a realistic
novel, or a secondary world in a fantasy-is to give the inhabitants of
that place a characteristic style of speech. The early classic
fantasists went one step further and cast not just the characters'
speech, but also the narrative itself, in a style distinct from
contemporary usage. In this way, the language of the story serves as a
strong marker that the reader is no longer in the everyday world.

Morris' style serves as the best example of the early classic
fantasists' narrative style. Drawing on his interest and knowledge of
ancient language and literature, Morris used language that was nearly as
archaic to his late-nineteenth-century readers as it is to readers a
century later. A brief passage of description and dialogue from early in
The Well at the World's End illustrates the distinct sound of Morris'
prose:

Ralph rode straight up to the house of a man whom he knew, and had often
given him guesting there, and he himself was not seldom seen in the High
House of Upmeads. This man was a merchant, who went and came betwixt
men's houses, and bought and sold many things needful and pleasant to
folk, and King Peter dealt with him much and often. Now he stood in the
door of his house, which was new and goodly, sniffing the sweet scents
which the morning wind bore into the town; he was clad in a goodly long
gown of grey welted with silver, of thin cloth meet for the summer-tide:
for little he wrought with his hands, but much with his tongue; he was a
man of forty summers, ruddy-faced and black-bearded, and he was called
Clement Chapman.

When he saw Ralph he smiled kindly on him, and came and held his stirrup
as he lighted down, and said: "Welcome, lord! Art thou come to give me a
message, and eat and drink in a poor huckster's house, and thou armed so
gallantly?"

Ralph laughed merrily, for he was hungry, and he said: "Yea, I will eat
and drink with thee and kiss my gossip, and go my ways." (9-10)

In his discussion of Morris' language in Fantasy: The Liberation of
Imagination, Richard Mathews explains that "the key words are of Saxon
rather than Latin derivation. ... Anglo-Saxon, with its Germanic-Nordic
origins, has a vocabulary primarily of short, active, colloquial words
... and a different sound and rhythm than the Frenchified and Latinate
language that dominated upper-class and scholarly vocabulary" (46). Even
in the short passage above, the reader encounters the distinct rhythm of
short words that Mathews mentions, as well as unfamiliar syntax ("he
himself was not seldom seen"; "little he wrought with his hands"), and
archaic vocabulary: guesting, betwixt, goodly, meet, lighted down,
gossip, and the use of "thou."

Mathews goes on to point out that this narrative style affects the
reader's perception of the secondary world: "The language helps to
create a different reality and sets Morris's world apart from the
inheritors of the road-building Romans, the hierarchical, artificial
Latin of the Church, or even the romantic French, the refined language
of society and diplomacy" (46). Brian Attebery likewise stresses the
"distancing" effect of Morris' language: "Morris invented a storytelling
language to match his imaginary worlds: grand, but severe sometimes to
the point of stiffness. Such a style gives his stories a distant quality,
like faded tapestries, but they are lovely and often quite moving" (8).

One of the effects on the story of this linguistic distancing of the
secondary world from the primary world is to give the fantasy novel
"some of the range and dignity of myth" (Attebery 9). Mathews goes a
step further and takes Morris' use of Saxon vocabulary as a
philosophical as well as a literary statement, claiming that "Through
his choice of words, which sound quaint and almost awkward to modern
ears, Morris affirms philosophical and linguistic roots within a tribal,
"uncivilized" past that values a more active, communal, nonhierarchical,
noncompetitive lifestyle" (46). This interpretation of Morris' choice of
a Saxon vocabulary relies rather heavily on a romanticized notion of the
ancient Saxons, but it is certainly true that Morris looked to the past
for models of the ideal community that he hoped could be created in the
future.

Morris' use of archaic language in his secondary world found favor among
later classic fantasists. The best of these later authors adopted the
idea of using a distinct style to evoke a distinct world, but made that
style their own. E.R. Eddison's The Worm Ouroboros is a useful example.
Here we have a passage of description and dialogue, as in the quoted
passage from The Well at the World's End, from early in Eddison's novel:

When Gro came to the Witches' booths he found them guarded even as the
Red Foliot had said, and the booths of them of Demonland in like manner.
So went he into the royal booth where the King lay in state on a bier of
spear-shafts, robed in his kingly robes over his armour that was painted
black and inlaid with gold, and the crown of Witchland on his head. Two
candles burned at the head of King Gorice and two at his feet; and the
night wind blowing through the crannies of the booth made them flare and
flicker, so that shadows danced unceasingly on the wall and roof and
floor. On the benches round the walls sat the lords of Witchland sullen
of countenance, for the wine was dead in them. Balefully they eyed Lord
Gro at his coming in, and Corinius sate upright in his seat and said,
"Here is the Goblin, father and fosterer of our misfortunes. Come, let
us slay him."

Gro stood among them with his head erect and held Corinius with his eye,
saying, "We of Witchland are not run lunatic, my Lord Corinius, that we
should do this gladness to the Demons, to bite each at the throat like
wolves [...] If ye have aught against me, let me hear it and answer it."
(53-4)

Eddison makes less use of archaic vocabulary than Morris, but he works
similarly with unfamiliar sentence structure, archaic turns of phrase,
and formal speech in dialogue to create a narrative style that is
distinct from that of the reader's primary world. As with Morris, the
narrative style has both literary and philosophical implications, both
of which were noticed by contemporary readers. James Stephens, in the
introduction to an early edition of the novel, hits on the connection
between Eddison's worldbuilding and his narrative style:

[Eddison] needed a whole cosmos to play in, and created one; and he
forged a prose to tell it in that is as gigantic as his tale. In reading
this book the reader must a little break his way in, and must surrender
prejudices that are not allowed for. He may think that the language is
more rotund than is needed for such a tale, but, as he proceeds, he will
see that only such a tongue could be spoken by these colossi. (xx)

The larger-than-life characters of Eddison's fantasy not only speak and
are narrated about in an epic style, but hold values that are native to
the ancient heroic epics. And, as Orville Prescott points out in his
introduction to the novel, "Eddison himself, who had no love for the
twentieth century, believed passionately in the ideals which inspired
Lord Juss and Lord Brandoch Daha, those very great warriors and gallant
gentlemen. So in these ringing pages courage and nobility and loyalty
are almost taken for granted; women are beautiful and to be served; and
glory is worth striving for" (xvi). While Eddison's tale contains no
implications of how to apply his ideals to the modern world, it is
nonetheless similar to Morris' approach in that the writing style is
consonant with the author's philosophical as well as artistic beliefs.

The last example of style that we will look at is Tolkien's in The Lord
of the Rings. Making a break from the archaic, distant style of Morris
and Eddison, Tolkien opted to write in a plain, accessible,
straightforward English. Tolkien's language is never pedestrian in its
simplicity, however; it carries the story's rich, poetic, dramatic
vision without strain. One of the noteworthy aspects of Tolkien's style
is in dialogue. Characters speak in the most natural and "realistic"
manner yet seen in classic fantasy, and dialogue is important to the
narrative. Tolkien also uses styles of speech to differentiate among
characters and situations: for the most part, the hobbits speak in a
more colloquial and informal way than royalty, while the pressures of
dramatic moments can spark greater eloquence in any of the characters.
This technique adds a flexibility to his narrative style and may help to
explain why The Lord of the Rings conveys a variety of moods as the
story plays out, while the works of Morris and Eddison typically sustain
one mood or tone throughout.

This extract from early in the first book of The Lord of the Rings
presents an identical scene to the one in the extract from Morris' The
Well at the World's End: a traveler approaches an inn. But even without
considering the quite different contexts of each scene, the style itself
is markedly different from that of Morris' novel:

Even from the outside the inn looked a pleasant place to familiar eyes.
[...] Above the arch there was a lamp, and beneath it swung a large
signboard: a fat white pony reared up on its hind legs. Over the door
was painted in white letters: THE PRANCING PONY by BARLIMAN BUTTERBUR.
Many of the lower windows showed lights behind thick curtains.

As they hesitated outside in the gloom, someone began singing a merry
song inside, and many cheerful voices joined loudly in the chorus. They
listened to this encouraging sound for a moment and then got off their
ponies. The song ended and there was a burst of laughter and clapping.

They led their ponies under the arch, and leaving them standing in the
yard they climbed up the steps. Frodo went forward and nearly bumped
into a short fat man with a bald head and a red face. He had a white
apron on, and was bustling out of one door and in through another,
carrying a tray laden with full mugs.

"Can we-" began Frodo.

"Half a minute, if you please!" shouted the man over his shoulder, and
vanished into a babel of voices and a cloud of smoke. In a moment he was
out again, wiping his hands on his apron. (168-169)

The Prancing Pony is clearly not the same kind of inn that Ralph visits
in Morris' colorful yet stylized world, a world in which "goodly" might
be as specific as Morris gets in his description. Here details abound.
The inn has a name, and the bustle going on before Frodo and his
companions even arrive shows us that this world has a life of its own,
apart from the concerns of the narrative. Fat, distracted Barliman
Butterbur is no archetypal innkeeper, but an individual personality, as
we are shown both in the vivid details of his description and in his
speech.

Tolkien's style would end up being very influential, though not so much
as his other innovations, discussed in a later chapter. Later, less
original writers would show that while it is extraordinarily difficult
to reproduce Tolkien's clear, beautiful prose style well, the result of
imitating it badly is not quite as disastrous as the result of badly
imitating the dense archaism of Morris or Eddison. More importantly,
though, Tolkien's use of language showed a new route to the elusive goal
of fantasists, evoking secondary belief. The plain yet vivid style that
convinces the reader of the reality of such homely things as crowded
inns and busy innkeepers in Middle Earth is equally effective in
proposing the reality of elves, rings of power, and walking trees,
because the narrative and the characters themselves treat them no
differently.

-----------------------


From ***@owlcroft.com Tue May 22 16:14:00 PDT 2001

"Holly E. Ordway" wrote:

[much of interest snipped for brevity]
In the primary world, one of the main signs of being in a different
country is that the inhabitants speak a different language, or at least
speak one's own language with a different accent. It follows suit that
one of the most natural ways to show the reader that he or she is in a
different place-whether a different part of the world in a realistic
novel, or a secondary world in a fantasy-is to give the inhabitants of
that place a characteristic style of speech. The early classic
fantasists went one step further and cast not just the characters'
speech, but also the narrative itself, in a style distinct from
contemporary usage. In this way, the language of the story serves as a
strong marker that the reader is no longer in the everyday world.
One of Tolkien's chief concerns is that his readers never forget that
the world they are seeing is *their* world, is Earth, is the world of
man under God, in which the rules--the moral rules--Tolkien displays
in that world are the same ones operative in our everyday lives. I
suspect that is a key reason this expert philologist chose to have
his proxy characters speak plain, unadorned, everyday English.

[...]
[...] Above the arch there was a lamp, and beneath it swung a large
signboard: a fat white pony reared up on its hind legs. Over the door
was painted in white letters: THE PRANCING PONY by BARLIMAN BUTTERBUR.
Many of the lower windows showed lights behind thick curtains. . . .
I find it interesting that you selected that passage as representative,
because, with the whole of that massive book to look through, it is one
of the few I also chose to exemplify Tolkien's prose in my own little
essay (http://owlcroft.com/sfandf/AUTHORS/JRRTolkien.html) on him. I
guess it is more memorable than it might seem in isolation.
--
Cordially,
Eric Walker, webmaster
Great Science-Fiction & Fantasy Works
http://owlcroft.com/sfandf

-----------------------------------------------------------
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Robert Carnegie
2017-03-03 04:56:47 UTC
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Referring to Dorothy's great fantasy writers,
including Tolkien when he gets florid - and also
the critics quoted - I love Tolkien particularly,
but I also think of what Harrison Ford said
about Star Wars - "George, you can type this
dialogue, but you can't say it!"

Except that the fantasists may not have typed,
and Ford didn't call it "dialogue".

Shakespeare did it too - but he uses a rhythm and
the trick is to hang on to that for dear life.
Any writer who uses the word "O" can be suspected
of messin' with ya.

Hey - did anyone else not get that Ralph was
visiting an inn? The language sounds like a
social call, and the host seems to be described
as having a full-time trade away from home,
whereas inn-keeping also tends to be a business
that takes all day and much of the night -
unless the licensed hours are pretty short.
David Johnston
2017-03-03 05:32:03 UTC
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Post by Robert Carnegie
Referring to Dorothy's great fantasy writers,
including Tolkien when he gets florid - and also
the critics quoted - I love Tolkien particularly,
but I also think of what Harrison Ford said
about Star Wars - "George, you can type this
dialogue, but you can't say it!"
Except that the fantasists may not have typed,
and Ford didn't call it "dialogue".
Shakespeare did it too - but he uses a rhythm and
the trick is to hang on to that for dear life.
Any writer who uses the word "O" can be suspected
of messin' with ya.
Hey - did anyone else not get that Ralph was
visiting an inn? The language sounds like a
social call, and the host seems to be described
as having a full-time trade away from home,
whereas inn-keeping also tends to be a business
that takes all day and much of the night -
unless the licensed hours are pretty short.
He probably wasn't...as such. Once you got out of the cities, in
medieval times it was pretty rare to see an actual dedicated inn rather
than just someone who had a house with a spare room and and some ale to
sell.
Dorothy J Heydt
2017-03-03 06:19:13 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Robert Carnegie
Referring to Dorothy's great fantasy writers,
including Tolkien when he gets florid - and also
the critics quoted - I love Tolkien particularly,
but I also think of what Harrison Ford said
about Star Wars - "George, you can type this
dialogue, but you can't say it!"
Except that the fantasists may not have typed,
and Ford didn't call it "dialogue".
Tolkien certainly typed -- slowly, on a special typewriter loaded
with extra diacritics (which he used in his philological work).
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Robert Bannister
2017-03-04 02:53:18 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Robert Carnegie
Referring to Dorothy's great fantasy writers,
including Tolkien when he gets florid - and also
the critics quoted - I love Tolkien particularly,
but I also think of what Harrison Ford said
about Star Wars - "George, you can type this
dialogue, but you can't say it!"
Except that the fantasists may not have typed,
and Ford didn't call it "dialogue".
Shakespeare did it too - but he uses a rhythm and
the trick is to hang on to that for dear life.
Any writer who uses the word "O" can be suspected
of messin' with ya.
Hey - did anyone else not get that Ralph was
visiting an inn? The language sounds like a
social call, and the host seems to be described
as having a full-time trade away from home,
whereas inn-keeping also tends to be a business
that takes all day and much of the night -
unless the licensed hours are pretty short.
In the 60s, I visited a lot of pubs in south Germany where the man of
the house was a full-time farmer during the day and his wife pretty busy
too, although, if you made enough noise, she would come into the bar and
pour you a beer. In the evenings, the man served and his wife cooked.
For all I know, there are still many country pubs like that.
--
Robert B. born England a long time ago;
Western Australia since 1972
Lawrence Watt-Evans
2017-03-03 06:09:49 UTC
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Post by h***@gmail.com
Post by a***@gmail.com
When I mention the term, "fantasy", no one understands. But when I mention LOTR, people recognise it. LOTR is possibly bigger than the rest of the fantasy genre. Although there are many excellent works of fantasy, especially from the 1980s.
Is LOTR the most influential work of fantasy? I don't personally care for Harry Potter, or the Game of Thrones.
I'd say LotR, it was the story that really kicked off the growth in the fantasy genre.
A case could be made for Robert E. Howard's Conan, though.
--
My webpage is at http://www.watt-evans.com
David DeLaney
2017-03-03 07:01:11 UTC
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Post by a***@gmail.com
LOTR continues to be a big success story. I just bought a Sony Play Station
4, and I discovered a game available for it, "Shadow of Mordor". After
reading reviews of it, I have decided to buy it. Have any of you played it,
and if so, what is your opinion? Another game is in the works, called
"Shadow of War".
Given the licensings involved, I'm _almost_ certain Dorothy (on PC) would
be your go-to gal for that. lemme see... okay no, it appears to be unrelated
to the long-running LotR MMORPG, my bad.

Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting thru EarthLink - "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
gatekeeper.vic.com/~dbd - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.
Dorothy J Heydt
2017-03-03 14:04:22 UTC
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Post by David DeLaney
Post by a***@gmail.com
LOTR continues to be a big success story. I just bought a Sony Play Station
4, and I discovered a game available for it, "Shadow of Mordor". After
reading reviews of it, I have decided to buy it. Have any of you played it,
and if so, what is your opinion? Another game is in the works, called
"Shadow of War".
Given the licensings involved, I'm _almost_ certain Dorothy (on PC) would
be your go-to gal for that. lemme see... okay no, it appears to be unrelated
to the long-running LotR MMORPG, my bad.
Yes. Completely unrelated to LotRO, as far as I know. One of
the things about LotRO is that the devs cling as closely as they
can to the books. Players do not get to be any of the main
characters, except in the occasional "session play" in which you
temporarily re-enact an event you otherwise would never have
seen.

For example, at one point in the quest sequence you come to Parth
Galen, where -- several days before -- Boromir attempted to take
the Ring from Frodo, who escaped across Anduin with Sam: and then
Orcs came up with orders to capture Hobbits, any Hobbits, and
take them to Isengard; and Boromir redeemed himself by fighting
to the death in an attempt to save them; and then you play Sam
beginning to follow Aragorn in his search, but then Hobbit-sense
takes over and makes you return to the boats in time to find
Frodo.

It's the _Rashomon_ treatment, in fact, and it's carefully
scripted so that you follow the actions of the character you are
temporarily portraying.

A little later you play either Merry or Pippin as they encounter
Treebeard; and then you play Treebeard as he leads the Ents to
destroy Isengard.

(I trust I haven't spoilered anything for anybody? These books
have been in print for half a century.)

But most of the time you play your own character, whose race,
class, and appearance you selected at character creation, and
brought him/her* out of the new character's instance (which will
teach you how to do the basic movements: how to walk, stop, turn,
pick things up, and fight). And some players get so attached to
their characters that they dislike session plays when they "have
to" play someone else.

Throughout the game there is a strong adherence to what the
developers call "the Tolkien ethos."

There's a free-to-play option, in which instead of paying a
subscription fee you work your tail off doing quests and deeds to
advance your character; or you can pay a subscription fee ($15
per month? something like that) and advance more rapidly. Hal
and I were smart and bought the lifetime membership that was
briefly available before launch, ten years ago.

_____
The gender of Dwarves is not specified, since Tolkien tells us
that Dwarf-women look exactly like the men, and the women "pass"
as men when they're out on the road. Every now and then someone
complains on the forums that we should be able to play
Dwarf-women, and the answer is "You can. Make a Dwarf character,
decide in your mind that she's female, and don't reveal the
secret to any but your closest friends."
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Jaimie Vandenbergh
2017-03-03 13:17:24 UTC
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Post by a***@gmail.com
LOTR continues to be a big success story. I just bought a Sony Play Station 4, and I discovered a game available for it, "Shadow of Mordor". After reading reviews of it, I have decided to buy it. Have any of you played it, and if so, what is your opinion?
It's a very interesting game, set in Middle Earth at the time of the Two
Towers/ROTK but tangential to the LOTR storyline, about the Orc army,
its structure and members, and attempts of your character to damage it.
The developers put a lot of effort in to make it match very well with
the Jackson films as well as the Tolkein lore (no snarky comments about
doing both being impossible Dorothy, they really did try very hard to
work with both the Tolkein lore and the movie looks, and made a pretty
good shout of it by all accounts).

It's particularly known for it's "Nemesis system" where orc
soldiers/commanders etc that you interact with will remember you and
grow in strength as you do, making the world seem far more believable
and interactive than the usual "go places and kill orcs" setup.

It's also known for a late addition of a female player character choice,
but not changing all the cinematic cut-scenes so your warrior princess
will suddenly be a burly dude again. Unless they eventually got around
to fixing that.

Cheers - Jaimie
--
Thank you for your input. Now, if you have something substantive to
bring to the discussion, kindly do. Otherwise, isn't there an
eternal flamefest that would peter out if you won't keep feeding it?
-- Cosmin Corbea, r.a.b
Ahasuerus
2017-03-04 16:49:53 UTC
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Raw Message
On Thursday, March 2, 2017 at 2:53:42 PM UTC-5, ***@gmail.com wrote:
[snip]
Post by a***@gmail.com
Is LOTR the most influential work of fantasy?
[snip]

At some point it becomes hard to measure influence due to multiplying
Nth order effect as discussed earlier. Even Laurell K. Hamilton's
influence is getting hard to measure and it's been less than 25 years
since the first Anita Blake book was published.

Sales figures alone do not tell the whole story, e.g. Rowling has
probably sold 1.5 orders of magnitude more books than Hamilton
(http://thewertzone.blogspot.com/2013/08/the-new-and-improved-sff-all-time-sales.html),
but I doubt her influence has been proportionally greater.
Post by a***@gmail.com
LOTR remains my favourite work of fantasy. What is your favourite work of fantasy?
It depends on the day of the week. Today it's probably _The Anubis
Gates_.
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