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[Because My Tears Are Delicious To You] RuneQuest 2nd Edition by Steve Perrin and Ray Turney
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James Nicoll
2017-04-30 12:52:18 UTC
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An RPG and so a bit off topic. If there were any Glorantha novels, I
missed them.

RuneQuest, Second Edition by Steve Perrin & Ray Turney

http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/review/a-voiceless-song-in-an-ageless-night
--
My reviews can be found at http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/
My Livejournal at http://www.livejournal.com/users/james_nicoll
My patreon is at https://www.patreon.com/jamesdnicoll
John Dallman
2017-04-30 14:16:00 UTC
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If there were any Glorantha novels, I missed them.
There is one, _King of Sartar_, by Greg Stafford, published by Chaosium
in 1992. It is not conventional, to say the least.

John
Steve Coltrin
2017-04-30 14:48:31 UTC
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begin fnord
Combat was generally a dicey proposition.
/clap
--
Steve Coltrin ***@omcl.org Google Groups killfiled here
"A group known as the League of Human Dignity helped arrange for Deuel
to be driven to a local livestock scale, where he could be weighed."
- Associated Press
Magewolf
2017-04-30 15:09:34 UTC
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Post by James Nicoll
An RPG and so a bit off topic. If there were any Glorantha novels, I
missed them.
RuneQuest, Second Edition by Steve Perrin & Ray Turney
http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/review/a-voiceless-song-in-an-ageless-night
Please do Rolemaster next,with charts.
James Nicoll
2017-04-30 19:22:58 UTC
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Post by Magewolf
Post by James Nicoll
An RPG and so a bit off topic. If there were any Glorantha novels, I
missed them.
RuneQuest, Second Edition by Steve Perrin & Ray Turney
http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/review/a-voiceless-song-in-an-ageless-night
Please do Rolemaster next,with charts.
I have never played it....
--
My reviews can be found at http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/
My Livejournal at http://www.livejournal.com/users/james_nicoll
My patreon is at https://www.patreon.com/jamesdnicoll
James Nicoll
2017-04-30 19:29:09 UTC
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Post by James Nicoll
Post by Magewolf
Post by James Nicoll
An RPG and so a bit off topic. If there were any Glorantha novels, I
missed them.
RuneQuest, Second Edition by Steve Perrin & Ray Turney
http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/review/a-voiceless-song-in-an-ageless-night
Please do Rolemaster next,with charts.
I have never played it....
I need a review series for the stuff I ran into just after I stopped
being a teen. For RPGs that would be Privateers and Gentlemen, Space
Opera, Stormbringer (and a whole mess of CHaosium works), Swordbearer,
The Morrow Project, Top Secret, Fringeworthy, FTL:2448, Lords of
Creation, POwers and Perils, Dragon Quest, Champions, Other Suns, Justice
Inc, Twilight 2000, and so on.
--
My reviews can be found at http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/
My Livejournal at http://www.livejournal.com/users/james_nicoll
My patreon is at https://www.patreon.com/jamesdnicoll
John Reiher
2017-04-30 20:50:52 UTC
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Post by James Nicoll
Post by James Nicoll
Post by Magewolf
Post by James Nicoll
An RPG and so a bit off topic. If there were any Glorantha novels, I
missed them.
RuneQuest, Second Edition by Steve Perrin & Ray Turney
http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/review/a-voiceless-song-in-an-ageless-night
Please do Rolemaster next,with charts.
I have never played it....
I need a review series for the stuff I ran into just after I stopped
being a teen. For RPGs that would be Privateers and Gentlemen, Space
Opera, Stormbringer (and a whole mess of CHaosium works), Swordbearer,
The Morrow Project, Top Secret, Fringeworthy, FTL:2448, Lords of
Creation, POwers and Perils, Dragon Quest, Champions, Other Suns, Justice
Inc, Twilight 2000, and so on.
Well, if you want a more current version of Fringeworthy and FTL:2448,
I can get you the PDFs, I do work for the company.
--
John Reiher
Tri Tac Games Podcast
http://tritacsystems.podbean.com/
James Nicoll
2017-05-01 03:40:09 UTC
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Post by John Reiher
Post by James Nicoll
Post by James Nicoll
Post by Magewolf
Post by James Nicoll
An RPG and so a bit off topic. If there were any Glorantha novels, I
missed them.
RuneQuest, Second Edition by Steve Perrin & Ray Turney
http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/review/a-voiceless-song-in-an-ageless-night
Please do Rolemaster next,with charts.
I have never played it....
I need a review series for the stuff I ran into just after I stopped
being a teen. For RPGs that would be Privateers and Gentlemen, Space
Opera, Stormbringer (and a whole mess of CHaosium works), Swordbearer,
The Morrow Project, Top Secret, Fringeworthy, FTL:2448, Lords of
Creation, POwers and Perils, Dragon Quest, Champions, Other Suns, Justice
Inc, Twilight 2000, and so on.
Well, if you want a more current version of Fringeworthy and FTL:2448,
I can get you the PDFs, I do work for the company.
Thank you.

On a less pleasant note, my condolences regarding your company's founder.
--
My reviews can be found at http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/
My Livejournal at http://www.livejournal.com/users/james_nicoll
My patreon is at https://www.patreon.com/jamesdnicoll
Lawrence Watt-Evans
2017-05-02 06:14:37 UTC
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Post by James Nicoll
Post by John Reiher
Post by James Nicoll
Post by James Nicoll
Post by Magewolf
Post by James Nicoll
An RPG and so a bit off topic. If there were any Glorantha novels, I
missed them.
RuneQuest, Second Edition by Steve Perrin & Ray Turney
http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/review/a-voiceless-song-in-an-ageless-night
Please do Rolemaster next,with charts.
I have never played it....
I need a review series for the stuff I ran into just after I stopped
being a teen. For RPGs that would be Privateers and Gentlemen, Space
Opera, Stormbringer (and a whole mess of CHaosium works), Swordbearer,
The Morrow Project, Top Secret, Fringeworthy, FTL:2448, Lords of
Creation, POwers and Perils, Dragon Quest, Champions, Other Suns, Justice
Inc, Twilight 2000, and so on.
Well, if you want a more current version of Fringeworthy and FTL:2448,
I can get you the PDFs, I do work for the company.
Thank you.
On a less pleasant note, my condolences regarding your company's founder.
What? Rich died? Oh, crap! I really liked him, and not just because
he wrote me into one of his games.
--
My webpage is at http://www.watt-evans.com
Quadibloc
2017-05-04 13:40:23 UTC
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Post by Lawrence Watt-Evans
What? Rich died? Oh, crap! I really liked him, and not just because
he wrote me into one of his games.
Yes, Wikipedia states that Richard Tucholka passed away on April 27th.

And here's another source...
https://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?802630-Richard-Tucholka-has-passed-away

John Savard
David Johnston
2017-04-30 20:53:38 UTC
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Post by James Nicoll
Post by Magewolf
Post by James Nicoll
An RPG and so a bit off topic. If there were any Glorantha novels, I
missed them.
RuneQuest, Second Edition by Steve Perrin & Ray Turney
http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/review/a-voiceless-song-in-an-ageless-night
Please do Rolemaster next,with charts.
I have never played it....
I'm not sure anyone ever played it. I bought "Spell Law" and it was the
worst purchase I ever made.
Moriarty
2017-04-30 23:28:43 UTC
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Post by David Johnston
Post by James Nicoll
Post by Magewolf
Post by James Nicoll
An RPG and so a bit off topic. If there were any Glorantha novels, I
missed them.
RuneQuest, Second Edition by Steve Perrin & Ray Turney
http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/review/a-voiceless-song-in-an-ageless-night
Please do Rolemaster next,with charts.
I have never played it....
I'm not sure anyone ever played it. I bought "Spell Law" and it was the
worst purchase I ever made.
Someone must be playing it, it's still in print!

http://ironcrown.com/rolemaster/

Even the book you mention is still around:

http://www.rpgnow.com/product/88654/Rolemaster-Classic-Spell-Law?affiliate_id=76493

I think Rolemaster Classic is the version you and I both bought and hated in the 80s.

-Moriarty
Magewolf
2017-05-01 19:05:05 UTC
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Post by Moriarty
Post by David Johnston
Post by James Nicoll
Post by Magewolf
Post by James Nicoll
An RPG and so a bit off topic. If there were any Glorantha novels, I
missed them.
RuneQuest, Second Edition by Steve Perrin & Ray Turney
http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/review/a-voiceless-song-in-an-ageless-night
Please do Rolemaster next,with charts.
I have never played it....
I'm not sure anyone ever played it. I bought "Spell Law" and it was the
worst purchase I ever made.
Someone must be playing it, it's still in print!
http://ironcrown.com/rolemaster/
http://www.rpgnow.com/product/88654/Rolemaster-Classic-Spell-Law?affiliate_id=76493
I think Rolemaster Classic is the version you and I both bought and hated in the 80s.
-Moriarty
I played it back when it was new. If everyone had copies of all the
charts they needed to hand and understood about how to get skills to
increase it ran pretty well mostly. Using weapons with a low skill was
asking to drop your axe and have it bounce of the ground and cut your
throat but that could be worked around.
Carl Fink
2017-04-30 18:42:15 UTC
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Post by James Nicoll
An RPG and so a bit off topic. If there were any Glorantha novels, I
missed them.
RuneQuest, Second Edition by Steve Perrin & Ray Turney
http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/review/a-voiceless-song-in-an-ageless-night
I ran and played RQ2 and 3 for years. Later I co-authored RuneQuest:
Adventures in Glorantha, which mutated into the Monkeyhead Games RuneQuest
(with no credit given to me and my colleagues, but it's nearly identical to
the manuscript Oliver produced). We were caught up in the Mattel bankruptcy
(after Mattel bought Avalon Hill).
--
Carl Fink ***@nitpicking.com

Read my blog at blog.nitpicking.com. Reviews! Observations!
Stupid mistakes you can correct!
Moriarty
2017-04-30 23:37:17 UTC
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Post by James Nicoll
An RPG and so a bit off topic. If there were any Glorantha novels, I
missed them.
RuneQuest, Second Edition by Steve Perrin & Ray Turney
http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/review/a-voiceless-song-in-an-ageless-night
Interesting review, thank you. I also played RuneQuest 2nd edition, but my memories are less fond than yours.

I hated, hated, hated the combat system. Sure, having specific hit locations to keep track of (*) and making hits really hard to achieve made it more realistic than, say, D&D. It also made it infinitely more tedious.

Recently my GM decided to run RQ6 for a time, things haven't improved.

(*) IIRC there were seven for a standard shaped creature: head, upper torso, lower torso, legs x2, arms x2. That time we fought the giant centipede, the GM had to keep track of more than 50 locations.

-Moriarty
James Nicoll
2017-05-01 03:35:52 UTC
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Post by Moriarty
Post by James Nicoll
An RPG and so a bit off topic. If there were any Glorantha novels, I
missed them.
RuneQuest, Second Edition by Steve Perrin & Ray Turney
http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/review/a-voiceless-song-in-an-ageless-night
Interesting review, thank you. I also played RuneQuest 2nd edition, but
my memories are less fond than yours.
I hated, hated, hated the combat system. Sure, having specific hit
locations to keep track of (*) and making hits really hard to achieve
made it more realistic than, say, D&D. It also made it infinitely more
tedious.
I really need to find a 1st ed DQ, whose combat system was so glacial
it's probably why I didn't mind Champions.
--
My reviews can be found at http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/
My Livejournal at http://www.livejournal.com/users/james_nicoll
My patreon is at https://www.patreon.com/jamesdnicoll
Carl Fink
2017-05-01 13:24:24 UTC
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Post by James Nicoll
I really need to find a 1st ed DQ, whose combat system was so glacial
it's probably why I didn't mind Champions.
Hey, I *playtested* first-edition Champions (and GURPS). We never found it
slow.

Have you played HeroQuest, the game with no mechanics?
--
Carl Fink ***@nitpicking.com

Read my blog at blog.nitpicking.com. Reviews! Observations!
Stupid mistakes you can correct!
James Nicoll
2017-05-01 15:31:17 UTC
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Post by Carl Fink
Post by James Nicoll
I really need to find a 1st ed DQ, whose combat system was so glacial
it's probably why I didn't mind Champions.
Hey, I *playtested* first-edition Champions (and GURPS). We never found it
slow.
Have you played HeroQuest, the game with no mechanics?
Was that from ten years ago? I don't think I ever got my head around it.
--
My reviews can be found at http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/
My Livejournal at http://www.livejournal.com/users/james_nicoll
My patreon is at https://www.patreon.com/jamesdnicoll
David DeLaney
2017-05-05 12:46:56 UTC
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Post by James Nicoll
Post by Carl Fink
Post by James Nicoll
I really need to find a 1st ed DQ, whose combat system was so glacial
it's probably why I didn't mind Champions.
Hey, I *playtested* first-edition Champions (and GURPS). We never found it
slow.
Have you played HeroQuest, the game with no mechanics?
Was that from ten years ago? I don't think I ever got my head around it.
I recently reread the rulebook for HeroQuest (one of the later editions) ...
and it wasn't that it had no mechanics. It was that its method of deciding
_one_ round of opposed rolling, on which all contests were built and which
most of the manual made no direct reference to, just having one section that
went into it in deep and disgusting detail, was approximately

"Each player notes what level they have in the appropriate skill, and how many
bumps, including any contributions from magic items, stats, other skills, and
certain followers, except as noted on schedule 4-e-27 or when in nid. This
provides the basis for the number of points each player has to bid with.
Players take turns bidding. Players not involved may contribute their own
points, if they have any, in much the same way as the Munchkin card game. This
continues until both original players AND the GM are exhausted, or 'tapped out'
- at which point they both roll a d20 and add their skill level, adjusting for
bumps, and compare to decide a winner-or-draw.

Then one repeats this for the next round of the contest, if any."

It stood out some from my collection of RPGs for being a resolution method
that was not only fundamentally unusable in an actual game - worse than any
I've seen James write reports on, which is going some - but which also would
not translate at all to a computer game doing calculations behind the scenes,
except if the bidding were somehow automated, perhaps with the player putting
in preferences on bid style overall.

Replacing the mechanism with the d20 system would have been much easier, though
the difficulty levels given in the rulebook for various things would almost
certainly have to have been divided by 2 or 3 to get things to be able to be
contestable in many cases.

Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting thru EarthLink - "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
gatekeeper.vic.com/~dbd - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.
Steve Coltrin
2017-05-05 14:06:20 UTC
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begin fnord
Post by David DeLaney
"Each player notes what level they have in the appropriate skill,
and how many bumps, including any contributions from magic items,
stats, other skills, and certain followers, except as noted on
schedule 4-e-27 or when in nid. This provides the basis for the
number of points each player has to bid with. Players take turns
bidding. Players not involved may contribute their own points, if
they have any, in much the same way as the Munchkin card game. This
continues until both original players AND the GM are exhausted, or
'tapped out' - at which point they both roll a d20 and add their
skill level, adjusting for bumps, and compare to decide a
winner-or-draw.
Mornington Crescent!
--
Steve Coltrin ***@omcl.org Google Groups killfiled here
"A group known as the League of Human Dignity helped arrange for Deuel
to be driven to a local livestock scale, where he could be weighed."
- Associated Press
Richard Hershberger
2017-05-01 13:35:01 UTC
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Post by James Nicoll
Post by Moriarty
Post by James Nicoll
An RPG and so a bit off topic. If there were any Glorantha novels, I
missed them.
RuneQuest, Second Edition by Steve Perrin & Ray Turney
http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/review/a-voiceless-song-in-an-ageless-night
Interesting review, thank you. I also played RuneQuest 2nd edition, but
my memories are less fond than yours.
I hated, hated, hated the combat system. Sure, having specific hit
locations to keep track of (*) and making hits really hard to achieve
made it more realistic than, say, D&D. It also made it infinitely more
tedious.
I really need to find a 1st ed DQ, whose combat system was so glacial
it's probably why I didn't mind Champions.
Three words: "Chivalry and Sorcery." In fairness, I can't actually say how its combat went. The rules were both voluminous and inscrutable. We sensed that there was some interesting stuff in there that could be appropriated for use elsewhere, but I never knew anyone who managed to run a pure C & S campaign.

Richard R. Hershberger
James Nicoll
2017-05-01 15:32:13 UTC
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Post by Richard Hershberger
Post by James Nicoll
Post by Moriarty
Post by James Nicoll
An RPG and so a bit off topic. If there were any Glorantha novels, I
missed them.
RuneQuest, Second Edition by Steve Perrin & Ray Turney
http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/review/a-voiceless-song-in-an-ageless-night
Interesting review, thank you. I also played RuneQuest 2nd edition, but
my memories are less fond than yours.
I hated, hated, hated the combat system. Sure, having specific hit
locations to keep track of (*) and making hits really hard to achieve
made it more realistic than, say, D&D. It also made it infinitely more
tedious.
I really need to find a 1st ed DQ, whose combat system was so glacial
it's probably why I didn't mind Champions.
Three words: "Chivalry and Sorcery." In fairness, I can't actually say
how its combat went. The rules were both voluminous and inscrutable.
We sensed that there was some interesting stuff in there that could be
appropriated for use elsewhere, but I never knew anyone who managed to
run a pure C & S campaign.
I not only know a group who did, they used a particular section of the
rules the designers never imagined anyone would use in actual play.
--
My reviews can be found at http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/
My Livejournal at http://www.livejournal.com/users/james_nicoll
My patreon is at https://www.patreon.com/jamesdnicoll
Quadibloc
2017-05-04 13:37:48 UTC
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Post by Richard Hershberger
Post by James Nicoll
I really need to find a 1st ed DQ, whose combat system was so glacial
it's probably why I didn't mind Champions.
Three words: "Chivalry and Sorcery."
I was wondering when someone would mention that.

John Savard
Richard Hershberger
2017-05-01 13:58:19 UTC
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Post by James Nicoll
An RPG and so a bit off topic. If there were any Glorantha novels, I
missed them.
RuneQuest, Second Edition by Steve Perrin & Ray Turney
I was an early adopter of RPGs, buying the original three booklet edition of D&D in 1976, plus the Greyhawk supplement which was necessary to make the damned thing playable. Also Tunnels & Trolls, which was not actually good, but was a lot more user friendly.

Runequest 2 was quite the revelation. It was the first system I played that was genuinely second generation, taking the RPG idea and improving it across the board. AD&D tried to preempt this niche, but the designers were too locked in on it as an improved version of D&D, therefore constraining themselves to continue some bad earlier decisions.

I don't see this talked about nowadays, but in the late 1970s there was a raging debate within the RPG community. Gary Gygax pushed hard the idea of (A)D&D as the One True Role Playing, or at least Fantasy Role Playing, Game. When the competition was Tunnels and Trolls there was an argument to be made, even apart from vague intellectual property claims. I nonetheless was pretty skeptical all along, even in my callow youth. Then RQ2 showed me definitively that there were other directions.

For one thing, it had a combat system that seemed like something that someone who had actually picked up a sword might come up with. Even then, the combat system had its detractors from the "get it over with quick" school, but I loved it. I also found that the actual time in a typical gaming session spent on combat was about the same. It was just that with RQ2 it was fewer fights than with AD&D. I thought this a virtue. Combat should not be a routine event, like commuting to work. An RQ2 session might lead up to its single fight as a climax, where AD&D fights were more background noise.

Then there was the setting. Or rather, the idea of designing a game around a specific setting. Part of the "One True RPG" claim of AD&D was that it was a one-size-fits-all rule set. Except that it wasn't really. It ripped off elements from various fantasy books and smushed them together. This worked fine for a generic AD&D campaign, but was a poor fit for anything else. RQ2 said "screw that" and had a system designed for the world it was set in. This was a breath of fresh air to me.

Oh, and AD&D alignments were a stupid idea from the start.

I haven't done any serious RPGing since college. I have little sense of what is going on today. If RQ2 isn't hopelessly outdated, that would speak poorly of later designers. In the meantime, I have a genuine warm-fuzzy for it.

Richard R. Hershberger
David Johnston
2017-05-01 16:03:55 UTC
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Post by Richard Hershberger
Post by James Nicoll
An RPG and so a bit off topic. If there were any Glorantha novels,
I missed them.
RuneQuest, Second Edition by Steve Perrin & Ray Turney
I was an early adopter of RPGs, buying the original three booklet
edition of D&D in 1976, plus the Greyhawk supplement which was
necessary to make the damned thing playable. Also Tunnels & Trolls,
which was not actually good, but was a lot more user friendly.
Runequest 2 was quite the revelation. It was the first system I
played that was genuinely second generation, taking the RPG idea and
improving it across the board. AD&D tried to preempt this niche, but
the designers were too locked in on it as an improved version of D&D,
therefore constraining themselves to continue some bad earlier
decisions.
I don't see this talked about nowadays, but in the late 1970s there
was a raging debate within the RPG community. Gary Gygax pushed hard
the idea of (A)D&D as the One True Role Playing, or at least Fantasy
Role Playing, Game. When the competition was Tunnels and Trolls
there was an argument to be made, even apart from vague intellectual
property claims. I nonetheless was pretty skeptical all along, even
in my callow youth. Then RQ2 showed me definitively that there were
other directions.
For one thing, it had a combat system that seemed like something that
someone who had actually picked up a sword might come up with. Even
then, the combat system had its detractors from the "get it over with
quick" school, but I loved it. I also found that the actual time in
a typical gaming session spent on combat was about the same. It was
just that with RQ2 it was fewer fights than with AD&D. I thought
this a virtue. Combat should not be a routine event, like commuting
to work. An RQ2 session might lead up to its single fight as a
climax, where AD&D fights were more background noise.
Then there was the setting. Or rather, the idea of designing a game
around a specific setting. Part of the "One True RPG" claim of AD&D
was that it was a one-size-fits-all rule set. Except that it wasn't
really. It ripped off elements from various fantasy books and
smushed them together. This worked fine for a generic AD&D campaign,
but was a poor fit for anything else. RQ2 said "screw that" and had
a system designed for the world it was set in. This was a breath of
fresh air to me.
Oh, and AD&D alignments were a stupid idea from the start.
Not if you were playing a Witch World game, where alignments fit perfectly.
David DeLaney
2017-05-05 12:31:44 UTC
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Post by James Nicoll
An RPG and so a bit off topic. If there were any Glorantha novels, I
missed them.
RuneQuest, Second Edition by Steve Perrin & Ray Turney
http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/review/a-voiceless-song-in-an-ageless-night
Wikipedia says five:
King of Sartar by Greg Stafford, The Collected/Complete Griselda by Oliver
Dickinson, Gloranthan Visions by various authors, and The Widow's Tale and
Eurhol's Vale & Other Tales by Penelope Love

and I find I had mentally conflated it with Tekumel, some of which's books I do
own. Oh, I do own King of Sartar, it looks like!

Dave, trivialistically
--
\/David DeLaney posting thru EarthLink - "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
gatekeeper.vic.com/~dbd - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.
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