Discussion:
Heinlein's breaching of sexual boundaries
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David Johnston
2018-04-24 17:32:06 UTC
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Well monogamy obviously. Both in the sense of having a "free love"
religion in Stranger In A Strange Land and the group marriages in works
such as the Moon Is A Harsh Mistress and Friday.

Public nudity as far back as The Puppet Master.

The age difference between Daniel and Ricky in the Door into Summer.

Brother sister incest and mother son in Time Enough For Love.

Sex with an audience...did that happen in Glory Road? With the audience
being her mother? Been a long time since I read it.

Then there was that the thing with a hermaphrodite becoming their own
father and mother in --All You Zombies--. It's hard to even define what
taboos that one violates. Gender boundaries. Mother/Father/Self incest.

I Will Fear No Evil: Mpreg. The whole dirty old man becomes hot young
woman and goes wild with it thing.
Robert Carnegie
2018-04-24 20:24:47 UTC
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Post by David Johnston
Well monogamy obviously. Both in the sense of having a "free love"
religion in Stranger In A Strange Land and the group marriages in works
such as the Moon Is A Harsh Mistress and Friday.
Public nudity as far back as The Puppet Master.
The age difference between Daniel and Ricky in the Door into Summer.
Brother sister incest and mother son in Time Enough For Love.
Sex with an audience...did that happen in Glory Road? With the audience
being her mother? Been a long time since I read it.
Then there was that the thing with a hermaphrodite becoming their own
father and mother in --All You Zombies--. It's hard to even define what
taboos that one violates. Gender boundaries. Mother/Father/Self incest.
I Will Fear No Evil: Mpreg. The whole dirty old man becomes hot young
woman and goes wild with it thing.
Which I figure leaves animals, robots, and furniture.
David Johnston
2018-04-24 20:57:33 UTC
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Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by David Johnston
Well monogamy obviously. Both in the sense of having a "free love"
religion in Stranger In A Strange Land and the group marriages in works
such as the Moon Is A Harsh Mistress and Friday.
Public nudity as far back as The Puppet Master.
The age difference between Daniel and Ricky in the Door into Summer.
Brother sister incest and mother son in Time Enough For Love.
Sex with an audience...did that happen in Glory Road? With the audience
being her mother? Been a long time since I read it.
Then there was that the thing with a hermaphrodite becoming their own
father and mother in --All You Zombies--. It's hard to even define what
taboos that one violates. Gender boundaries. Mother/Father/Self incest.
I Will Fear No Evil: Mpreg. The whole dirty old man becomes hot young
woman and goes wild with it thing.
Which I figure leaves animals, robots, and furniture.
It is a little odd that sex with a nonhuman never happened.
a425couple
2018-04-24 21:06:59 UTC
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Post by David Johnston
Post by Robert Carnegie
Well monogamy obviously.  Both in the sense of having a "free love"
religion in Stranger In A Strange Land and the group marriages in works
such as the Moon Is A Harsh Mistress and Friday.
Public nudity as far back as The Puppet Master.
The age difference between Daniel and Ricky in the Door into Summer.
I do not think the 'age difference' thing was so notable,
but the trusted 'uncle' and long time grooming struck
a few sensibilities.
Post by David Johnston
Post by Robert Carnegie
Brother sister incest and mother son in Time Enough For Love.
Sex with an audience...did that happen in Glory Road?  With the audience
being her mother?  Been a long time since I read it.
I do not recall that in "Glory Road".
Post by David Johnston
Post by Robert Carnegie
Then there was that the thing with a hermaphrodite becoming their own
father and mother in --All You Zombies--.  It's hard to even define what
taboos that one violates.  Gender boundaries.  Mother/Father/Self
incest.
I Will Fear No Evil:  Mpreg. The whole dirty old man becomes hot young
woman and goes wild with it thing.
Which I figure leaves animals, robots, and furniture.
It is a little odd that sex with a nonhuman never happened.
Yes, that does seem 'odd'.

Does anyone recall any male to male homosexuality?
Ted Nolan <tednolan>
2018-04-24 21:13:52 UTC
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Post by a425couple
Post by David Johnston
Post by Robert Carnegie
Well monogamy obviously.  Both in the sense of having a "free love"
religion in Stranger In A Strange Land and the group marriages in works
such as the Moon Is A Harsh Mistress and Friday.
Public nudity as far back as The Puppet Master.
The age difference between Daniel and Ricky in the Door into Summer.
I do not think the 'age difference' thing was so notable,
but the trusted 'uncle' and long time grooming struck
a few sensibilities.
Post by David Johnston
Post by Robert Carnegie
Brother sister incest and mother son in Time Enough For Love.
Sex with an audience...did that happen in Glory Road?  With the audience
being her mother?  Been a long time since I read it.
I do not recall that in "Glory Road".
Post by David Johnston
Post by Robert Carnegie
Then there was that the thing with a hermaphrodite becoming their own
father and mother in --All You Zombies--.  It's hard to even define what
taboos that one violates.  Gender boundaries.  Mother/Father/Self
incest.
I Will Fear No Evil:  Mpreg. The whole dirty old man becomes hot young
woman and goes wild with it thing.
Which I figure leaves animals, robots, and furniture.
It is a little odd that sex with a nonhuman never happened.
Yes, that does seem 'odd'.
Does anyone recall any male to male homosexuality?
Not onscreen, but one character mentioned it as something he had tried,
didn't click on, and stayed friends with the other guy.

And in TEFL, two characters plan a tryst before either knowing the other's
gender.
--
------
columbiaclosings.com
What's not in Columbia anymore..
David Johnston
2018-04-24 21:41:21 UTC
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Post by a425couple
Post by David Johnston
Post by Robert Carnegie
Well monogamy obviously.  Both in the sense of having a "free love"
religion in Stranger In A Strange Land and the group marriages in works
such as the Moon Is A Harsh Mistress and Friday.
Public nudity as far back as The Puppet Master.
The age difference between Daniel and Ricky in the Door into Summer.
I do not think the 'age difference' thing was so notable,
but the trusted 'uncle' and long time grooming struck
a few sensibilities.
That is the age difference thing. While he waits until she's legal to
consummate it, it's kind of taboo to even think about it when she's that
age.
Post by a425couple
Post by David Johnston
Post by Robert Carnegie
I Will Fear No Evil:  Mpreg. The whole dirty old man becomes hot young
woman and goes wild with it thing.
Which I figure leaves animals, robots, and furniture.
It is a little odd that sex with a nonhuman never happened.
Yes, that does seem 'odd'.
Does anyone recall any male to male homosexuality?
Not without a body switch although in several settings I got the
impression it was implied.
Lawrence Watt-Evans
2018-04-25 03:52:33 UTC
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On Tue, 24 Apr 2018 14:06:59 -0700, a425couple
Post by a425couple
Post by David Johnston
Post by Robert Carnegie
Well monogamy obviously.  Both in the sense of having a "free love"
religion in Stranger In A Strange Land and the group marriages in works
such as the Moon Is A Harsh Mistress and Friday.
Public nudity as far back as The Puppet Master.
The age difference between Daniel and Ricky in the Door into Summer.
I do not think the 'age difference' thing was so notable,
but the trusted 'uncle' and long time grooming struck
a few sensibilities.
Post by David Johnston
Post by Robert Carnegie
Brother sister incest and mother son in Time Enough For Love.
Sex with an audience...did that happen in Glory Road?  With the audience
being her mother?  Been a long time since I read it.
I do not recall that in "Glory Road".
Post by David Johnston
Post by Robert Carnegie
Then there was that the thing with a hermaphrodite becoming their own
father and mother in --All You Zombies--.  It's hard to even define what
taboos that one violates.  Gender boundaries.  Mother/Father/Self
incest.
I Will Fear No Evil:  Mpreg. The whole dirty old man becomes hot young
woman and goes wild with it thing.
Which I figure leaves animals, robots, and furniture.
It is a little odd that sex with a nonhuman never happened.
Yes, that does seem 'odd'.
Does anyone recall any male to male homosexuality?
In _Stranger in A Strange Land_, just in passing.
--
My webpage is at http://www.watt-evans.com
My latest novel is Stone Unturned: A Legend of Ethshar.
See http://www.ethshar.com/StoneUnturned.shtml
Dorothy J Heydt
2018-04-24 21:21:39 UTC
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Post by David Johnston
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by David Johnston
Well monogamy obviously. Both in the sense of having a "free love"
religion in Stranger In A Strange Land and the group marriages in works
such as the Moon Is A Harsh Mistress and Friday.
Public nudity as far back as The Puppet Master.
The age difference between Daniel and Ricky in the Door into Summer.
Brother sister incest and mother son in Time Enough For Love.
Sex with an audience...did that happen in Glory Road? With the audience
being her mother? Been a long time since I read it.
Then there was that the thing with a hermaphrodite becoming their own
father and mother in --All You Zombies--. It's hard to even define what
taboos that one violates. Gender boundaries. Mother/Father/Self incest.
I Will Fear No Evil: Mpreg. The whole dirty old man becomes hot young
woman and goes wild with it thing.
Which I figure leaves animals, robots, and furniture.
It is a little odd that sex with a nonhuman never happened.
Not in Heinlein's work, no. He left that for Niven.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Johnny1A
2018-04-25 20:38:00 UTC
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Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by David Johnston
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by David Johnston
Well monogamy obviously. Both in the sense of having a "free love"
religion in Stranger In A Strange Land and the group marriages in works
such as the Moon Is A Harsh Mistress and Friday.
Public nudity as far back as The Puppet Master.
The age difference between Daniel and Ricky in the Door into Summer.
Brother sister incest and mother son in Time Enough For Love.
Sex with an audience...did that happen in Glory Road? With the audience
being her mother? Been a long time since I read it.
Then there was that the thing with a hermaphrodite becoming their own
father and mother in --All You Zombies--. It's hard to even define what
taboos that one violates. Gender boundaries. Mother/Father/Self incest.
I Will Fear No Evil: Mpreg. The whole dirty old man becomes hot young
woman and goes wild with it thing.
Which I figure leaves animals, robots, and furniture.
It is a little odd that sex with a nonhuman never happened.
Not in Heinlein's work, no. He left that for Niven.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Did Niven ever use it outside of near-relative species (descendents of Pak)?

_Homo sapiens_ has no known close species-kin alive today. I actually have wondered just how close a non-human, non-interfertile species would have to be for attraction to exist on a reliable basis.

The current thinking is that H. sapiens and H. neandertalensis interbred, but that may yet change again, and I'm not sure how much it establishes if H. neandertalensis was interfertile anyway.
Jaimie Vandenbergh
2018-04-25 21:29:29 UTC
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On Wed, 25 Apr 2018 13:38:00 -0700 (PDT), Johnny1A
Post by Johnny1A
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by David Johnston
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by David Johnston
Well monogamy obviously. Both in the sense of having a "free love"
religion in Stranger In A Strange Land and the group marriages in works
such as the Moon Is A Harsh Mistress and Friday.
Public nudity as far back as The Puppet Master.
The age difference between Daniel and Ricky in the Door into Summer.
Brother sister incest and mother son in Time Enough For Love.
Sex with an audience...did that happen in Glory Road? With the audience
being her mother? Been a long time since I read it.
Then there was that the thing with a hermaphrodite becoming their own
father and mother in --All You Zombies--. It's hard to even define what
taboos that one violates. Gender boundaries. Mother/Father/Self incest.
I Will Fear No Evil: Mpreg. The whole dirty old man becomes hot young
woman and goes wild with it thing.
Which I figure leaves animals, robots, and furniture.
It is a little odd that sex with a nonhuman never happened.
Not in Heinlein's work, no. He left that for Niven.
Did Niven ever use it outside of near-relative species (descendents of Pak)?
Rishathra was specifically between hominids, I don't remember him ever
suggesting fucking outside the family. That's Phil Farmer's speciality.
_Strange Relations_ et al.

Further afield there's Tiptree's "Man is exogamous - all our history is
one long drive to find and impregnate the stranger. Or get impregnated
by him; it works for women too. Anything different-colored, different
nose, ass, anything, man has to fuck it or die trying" from /And I awoke
and found me here on the cold hill's side/ short.
Post by Johnny1A
_Homo sapiens_ has no known close species-kin alive today. I actually have wondered just how close a non-human, non-interfertile species would have to be for attraction to exist on a reliable basis.
The current thinking is that H. sapiens and H. neandertalensis interbred, but that may yet change again, and I'm not sure how much it establishes if H. neandertalensis was interfertile anyway.
Seems unlikely to change given genetic evidence.

Cheers - Jaimie
--
Storage space and computing power are dirt cheap; our task isn't
to "use them efficiently," it's to "squander them creatively."
-- David Gelernter
David Johnston
2018-04-25 21:42:39 UTC
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Post by Jaimie Vandenbergh
On Wed, 25 Apr 2018 13:38:00 -0700 (PDT), Johnny1A
Post by Johnny1A
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by David Johnston
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by David Johnston
Well monogamy obviously. Both in the sense of having a "free love"
religion in Stranger In A Strange Land and the group marriages in works
such as the Moon Is A Harsh Mistress and Friday.
Public nudity as far back as The Puppet Master.
The age difference between Daniel and Ricky in the Door into Summer.
Brother sister incest and mother son in Time Enough For Love.
Sex with an audience...did that happen in Glory Road? With the audience
being her mother? Been a long time since I read it.
Then there was that the thing with a hermaphrodite becoming their own
father and mother in --All You Zombies--. It's hard to even define what
taboos that one violates. Gender boundaries. Mother/Father/Self incest.
I Will Fear No Evil: Mpreg. The whole dirty old man becomes hot young
woman and goes wild with it thing.
Which I figure leaves animals, robots, and furniture.
It is a little odd that sex with a nonhuman never happened.
Not in Heinlein's work, no. He left that for Niven.
Did Niven ever use it outside of near-relative species (descendents of Pak)?
Rishathra was specifically between hominids, I don't remember him ever
suggesting fucking outside the family. That's Phil Farmer's speciality.
_Strange Relations_ et al.
Zelazny's Changing Land was the one where the priestess had a very
affectionate relations with her tentacle-monster god.
Johnny1A
2018-04-26 02:46:40 UTC
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Post by Jaimie Vandenbergh
On Wed, 25 Apr 2018 13:38:00 -0700 (PDT), Johnny1A
Post by Johnny1A
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by David Johnston
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by David Johnston
Well monogamy obviously. Both in the sense of having a "free love"
religion in Stranger In A Strange Land and the group marriages in works
such as the Moon Is A Harsh Mistress and Friday.
Public nudity as far back as The Puppet Master.
The age difference between Daniel and Ricky in the Door into Summer.
Brother sister incest and mother son in Time Enough For Love.
Sex with an audience...did that happen in Glory Road? With the audience
being her mother? Been a long time since I read it.
Then there was that the thing with a hermaphrodite becoming their own
father and mother in --All You Zombies--. It's hard to even define what
taboos that one violates. Gender boundaries. Mother/Father/Self incest.
I Will Fear No Evil: Mpreg. The whole dirty old man becomes hot young
woman and goes wild with it thing.
Which I figure leaves animals, robots, and furniture.
It is a little odd that sex with a nonhuman never happened.
Not in Heinlein's work, no. He left that for Niven.
Did Niven ever use it outside of near-relative species (descendents of Pak)?
Rishathra was specifically between hominids, I don't remember him ever
suggesting fucking outside the family. That's Phil Farmer's speciality.
_Strange Relations_ et al.
Further afield there's Tiptree's "Man is exogamous - all our history is
one long drive to find and impregnate the stranger. Or get impregnated
by him; it works for women too. Anything different-colored, different
nose, ass, anything, man has to fuck it or die trying" from /And I awoke
and found me here on the cold hill's side/ short.
Post by Johnny1A
_Homo sapiens_ has no known close species-kin alive today. I actually have wondered just how close a non-human, non-interfertile species would have to be for attraction to exist on a reliable basis.
The current thinking is that H. sapiens and H. neandertalensis interbred, but that may yet change again, and I'm not sure how much it establishes if H. neandertalensis was interfertile anyway.
Seems unlikely to change given genetic evidence.
Cheers - Jaimie
Time will tell.

Yeah, some of the same DNA sequences are present in modern humans and Neandertals, but I can imagine ways that could happen other than direct descent.

Likewise, even the existence of the Denisovans _as a separate species_ is based on very, very thin evidence. They certain _existed_, don't get me wrong, but whether we'd classify them as a different species than H. sapiens if they lived today is another matter.
Robert Carnegie
2018-04-27 00:22:41 UTC
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Post by Johnny1A
Post by Jaimie Vandenbergh
On Wed, 25 Apr 2018 13:38:00 -0700 (PDT), Johnny1A
Post by Johnny1A
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by David Johnston
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by David Johnston
Well monogamy obviously. Both in the sense of having a "free love"
religion in Stranger In A Strange Land and the group marriages in works
such as the Moon Is A Harsh Mistress and Friday.
Public nudity as far back as The Puppet Master.
The age difference between Daniel and Ricky in the Door into Summer.
Brother sister incest and mother son in Time Enough For Love.
Sex with an audience...did that happen in Glory Road? With the audience
being her mother? Been a long time since I read it.
Then there was that the thing with a hermaphrodite becoming their own
father and mother in --All You Zombies--. It's hard to even define what
taboos that one violates. Gender boundaries. Mother/Father/Self incest.
I Will Fear No Evil: Mpreg. The whole dirty old man becomes hot young
woman and goes wild with it thing.
Which I figure leaves animals, robots, and furniture.
It is a little odd that sex with a nonhuman never happened.
Not in Heinlein's work, no. He left that for Niven.
Did Niven ever use it outside of near-relative species (descendents of Pak)?
Rishathra was specifically between hominids, I don't remember him ever
suggesting fucking outside the family. That's Phil Farmer's speciality.
_Strange Relations_ et al.
Further afield there's Tiptree's "Man is exogamous - all our history is
one long drive to find and impregnate the stranger. Or get impregnated
by him; it works for women too. Anything different-colored, different
nose, ass, anything, man has to fuck it or die trying" from /And I awoke
and found me here on the cold hill's side/ short.
Post by Johnny1A
_Homo sapiens_ has no known close species-kin alive today. I actually have wondered just how close a non-human, non-interfertile species would have to be for attraction to exist on a reliable basis.
The current thinking is that H. sapiens and H. neandertalensis interbred, but that may yet change again, and I'm not sure how much it establishes if H. neandertalensis was interfertile anyway.
Seems unlikely to change given genetic evidence.
Cheers - Jaimie
Time will tell.
Yeah, some of the same DNA sequences are present in modern humans and Neandertals, but I can imagine ways that could happen other than direct descent.
Likewise, even the existence of the Denisovans _as a separate species_ is based on very, very thin evidence. They certain _existed_, don't get me wrong, but whether we'd classify them as a different species than H. sapiens if they lived today is another matter.
Interbreeding seem to me an opposite concept to "different species".

But you can breed a horse and a donkey, or a lion and a tiger...
I don't know what else an irresponsible zoologist with time on
their hands can do to produce a unique exhibit??

I think Neanderthals were considered a separate "species"
previously, because before /that/ the difference was called
"race". But when that became socially unacceptable, they
just substituted the word.

Really, I suppose, related but separated populations undergo
random mutation and so forth and become biologically incompatible
that way. Eventually.
Johnny1A
2018-04-27 03:02:45 UTC
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Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by Johnny1A
Post by Jaimie Vandenbergh
On Wed, 25 Apr 2018 13:38:00 -0700 (PDT), Johnny1A
Post by Johnny1A
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by David Johnston
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by David Johnston
Well monogamy obviously. Both in the sense of having a "free love"
religion in Stranger In A Strange Land and the group marriages in works
such as the Moon Is A Harsh Mistress and Friday.
Public nudity as far back as The Puppet Master.
The age difference between Daniel and Ricky in the Door into Summer.
Brother sister incest and mother son in Time Enough For Love.
Sex with an audience...did that happen in Glory Road? With the audience
being her mother? Been a long time since I read it.
Then there was that the thing with a hermaphrodite becoming their own
father and mother in --All You Zombies--. It's hard to even define what
taboos that one violates. Gender boundaries. Mother/Father/Self incest.
I Will Fear No Evil: Mpreg. The whole dirty old man becomes hot young
woman and goes wild with it thing.
Which I figure leaves animals, robots, and furniture.
It is a little odd that sex with a nonhuman never happened.
Not in Heinlein's work, no. He left that for Niven.
Did Niven ever use it outside of near-relative species (descendents of Pak)?
Rishathra was specifically between hominids, I don't remember him ever
suggesting fucking outside the family. That's Phil Farmer's speciality.
_Strange Relations_ et al.
Further afield there's Tiptree's "Man is exogamous - all our history is
one long drive to find and impregnate the stranger. Or get impregnated
by him; it works for women too. Anything different-colored, different
nose, ass, anything, man has to fuck it or die trying" from /And I awoke
and found me here on the cold hill's side/ short.
Post by Johnny1A
_Homo sapiens_ has no known close species-kin alive today. I actually have wondered just how close a non-human, non-interfertile species would have to be for attraction to exist on a reliable basis.
The current thinking is that H. sapiens and H. neandertalensis interbred, but that may yet change again, and I'm not sure how much it establishes if H. neandertalensis was interfertile anyway.
Seems unlikely to change given genetic evidence.
Cheers - Jaimie
Time will tell.
Yeah, some of the same DNA sequences are present in modern humans and Neandertals, but I can imagine ways that could happen other than direct descent.
Likewise, even the existence of the Denisovans _as a separate species_ is based on very, very thin evidence. They certain _existed_, don't get me wrong, but whether we'd classify them as a different species than H. sapiens if they lived today is another matter.
Interbreeding seem to me an opposite concept to "different species".
That was the original thumb-rule definition of species, that they could interbreed and produce fertile, viable offspring.

But professional today they tend to fixate on 'reproductive isolation', which is a greyer definition.
Post by Robert Carnegie
But you can breed a horse and a donkey, or a lion and a tiger...
I don't know what else an irresponsible zoologist with time on
their hands can do to produce a unique exhibit??
I think Neanderthals were considered a separate "species"
previously, because before /that/ the difference was called
"race". But when that became socially unacceptable, they
just substituted the word.
To some degree. But the debate about whether modern humans wiped out the Neandertals or 'absorbed' them has swung back and forth for a century at least.

With the greyer definitions of 'species', if there were large populations of Neandertals and Denisovans alive today, whether they'd end being categorized as separate species or races of _H. sapiens_ is a very good question. We know almost nothing, esp., about the Denisovans.
Kevrob
2018-04-27 03:32:58 UTC
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Post by Johnny1A
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by Johnny1A
Post by Jaimie Vandenbergh
On Wed, 25 Apr 2018 13:38:00 -0700 (PDT), Johnny1A
Post by Johnny1A
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by David Johnston
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by David Johnston
Well monogamy obviously. Both in the sense of having a "free love"
religion in Stranger In A Strange Land and the group marriages in works
such as the Moon Is A Harsh Mistress and Friday.
Public nudity as far back as The Puppet Master.
The age difference between Daniel and Ricky in the Door into Summer.
Brother sister incest and mother son in Time Enough For Love.
Sex with an audience...did that happen in Glory Road? With the audience
being her mother? Been a long time since I read it.
Then there was that the thing with a hermaphrodite becoming their own
father and mother in --All You Zombies--. It's hard to even define what
taboos that one violates. Gender boundaries. Mother/Father/Self incest.
I Will Fear No Evil: Mpreg. The whole dirty old man becomes hot young
woman and goes wild with it thing.
Which I figure leaves animals, robots, and furniture.
It is a little odd that sex with a nonhuman never happened.
Not in Heinlein's work, no. He left that for Niven.
Did Niven ever use it outside of near-relative species (descendents of Pak)?
Rishathra was specifically between hominids, I don't remember him ever
suggesting fucking outside the family. That's Phil Farmer's speciality.
_Strange Relations_ et al.
Further afield there's Tiptree's "Man is exogamous - all our history is
one long drive to find and impregnate the stranger. Or get impregnated
by him; it works for women too. Anything different-colored, different
nose, ass, anything, man has to fuck it or die trying" from /And I awoke
and found me here on the cold hill's side/ short.
Post by Johnny1A
_Homo sapiens_ has no known close species-kin alive today. I actually have wondered just how close a non-human, non-interfertile species would have to be for attraction to exist on a reliable basis.
The current thinking is that H. sapiens and H. neandertalensis interbred, but that may yet change again, and I'm not sure how much it establishes if H. neandertalensis was interfertile anyway.
Seems unlikely to change given genetic evidence.
Cheers - Jaimie
Time will tell.
Yeah, some of the same DNA sequences are present in modern humans and Neandertals, but I can imagine ways that could happen other than direct descent.
Likewise, even the existence of the Denisovans _as a separate species_ is based on very, very thin evidence. They certain _existed_, don't get me wrong, but whether we'd classify them as a different species than H. sapiens if they lived today is another matter.
Interbreeding seem to me an opposite concept to "different species".
That was the original thumb-rule definition of species, that they could interbreed and produce fertile, viable offspring.
But professional today they tend to fixate on 'reproductive isolation', which is a greyer definition.
Post by Robert Carnegie
But you can breed a horse and a donkey, or a lion and a tiger...
I don't know what else an irresponsible zoologist with time on
their hands can do to produce a unique exhibit??
I think Neanderthals were considered a separate "species"
previously, because before /that/ the difference was called
"race". But when that became socially unacceptable, they
just substituted the word.
To some degree. But the debate about whether modern humans wiped out the Neandertals or 'absorbed' them has swung back and forth for a century at least.
Is there any reason BOTH couldn't have happened? Kill most of a
Nand'l troop, absorb the remnant, even as very low status members,
slaves, even? Then hear he alpha with the women, just about
midnight... (Cue Mick, Keef and the boys.)
Post by Johnny1A
With the greyer definitions of 'species', if there were large populations of Neandertals and Denisovans alive today, whether they'd end being categorized as separate species or races of _H. sapiens_ is a very good question. We know almost nothing, esp., about the Denisovans.
Sergei is playing in the KHL this season. :)

Kevin R
J. Clarke
2018-04-28 01:54:59 UTC
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Post by Kevrob
Post by Johnny1A
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by Johnny1A
Post by Jaimie Vandenbergh
On Wed, 25 Apr 2018 13:38:00 -0700 (PDT), Johnny1A
Post by Johnny1A
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by David Johnston
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by David Johnston
Well monogamy obviously. Both in the sense of having a "free love"
religion in Stranger In A Strange Land and the group marriages in works
such as the Moon Is A Harsh Mistress and Friday.
Public nudity as far back as The Puppet Master.
The age difference between Daniel and Ricky in the Door into Summer.
Brother sister incest and mother son in Time Enough For Love.
Sex with an audience...did that happen in Glory Road? With the audience
being her mother? Been a long time since I read it.
Then there was that the thing with a hermaphrodite becoming their own
father and mother in --All You Zombies--. It's hard to even define what
taboos that one violates. Gender boundaries. Mother/Father/Self incest.
I Will Fear No Evil: Mpreg. The whole dirty old man becomes hot young
woman and goes wild with it thing.
Which I figure leaves animals, robots, and furniture.
It is a little odd that sex with a nonhuman never happened.
Not in Heinlein's work, no. He left that for Niven.
Did Niven ever use it outside of near-relative species (descendents of Pak)?
Rishathra was specifically between hominids, I don't remember him ever
suggesting fucking outside the family. That's Phil Farmer's speciality.
_Strange Relations_ et al.
Further afield there's Tiptree's "Man is exogamous - all our history is
one long drive to find and impregnate the stranger. Or get impregnated
by him; it works for women too. Anything different-colored, different
nose, ass, anything, man has to fuck it or die trying" from /And I awoke
and found me here on the cold hill's side/ short.
Post by Johnny1A
_Homo sapiens_ has no known close species-kin alive today. I actually have wondered just how close a non-human, non-interfertile species would have to be for attraction to exist on a reliable basis.
The current thinking is that H. sapiens and H. neandertalensis interbred, but that may yet change again, and I'm not sure how much it establishes if H. neandertalensis was interfertile anyway.
Seems unlikely to change given genetic evidence.
Cheers - Jaimie
Time will tell.
Yeah, some of the same DNA sequences are present in modern humans and Neandertals, but I can imagine ways that could happen other than direct descent.
Likewise, even the existence of the Denisovans _as a separate species_ is based on very, very thin evidence. They certain _existed_, don't get me wrong, but whether we'd classify them as a different species than H. sapiens if they lived today is another matter.
Interbreeding seem to me an opposite concept to "different species".
That was the original thumb-rule definition of species, that they could interbreed and produce fertile, viable offspring.
But professional today they tend to fixate on 'reproductive isolation', which is a greyer definition.
Post by Robert Carnegie
But you can breed a horse and a donkey, or a lion and a tiger...
I don't know what else an irresponsible zoologist with time on
their hands can do to produce a unique exhibit??
I think Neanderthals were considered a separate "species"
previously, because before /that/ the difference was called
"race". But when that became socially unacceptable, they
just substituted the word.
To some degree. But the debate about whether modern humans wiped out the Neandertals or 'absorbed' them has swung back and forth for a century at least.
Is there any reason BOTH couldn't have happened? Kill most of a
Nand'l troop, absorb the remnant, even as very low status members,
slaves, even? Then hear he alpha with the women, just about
midnight... (Cue Mick, Keef and the boys.)
Not sure what "hear he alpha" means but playing tough with a
Neanderthal girl was likely a good way for a homo sap to get his neck
broken.
Post by Kevrob
Post by Johnny1A
With the greyer definitions of 'species', if there were large populations of Neandertals and Denisovans alive today, whether they'd end being categorized as separate species or races of _H. sapiens_ is a very good question. We know almost nothing, esp., about the Denisovans.
Sergei is playing in the KHL this season. :)
Kevin R
Kevrob
2018-04-28 02:32:33 UTC
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Post by J. Clarke
Post by Kevrob
Is there any reason BOTH couldn't have happened? Kill most of a
Nand'l troop, absorb the remnant, even as very low status members,
slaves, even? Then hear he alpha with the women, just about
midnight... (Cue Mick, Keef and the boys.)
Not sure what "hear he alpha" means but playing tough with a
Neanderthal girl was likely a good way for a homo sap to get his neck
broken.
That was supposed to be:

"hear him* with the women, just about midnight..."

..and then the Stones reference.

I MEGOd my C&P-O.

Kevin R

* him being the troop alpha male.
Dorothy J Heydt
2018-04-25 21:01:39 UTC
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Post by Johnny1A
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by David Johnston
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by David Johnston
Well monogamy obviously. Both in the sense of having a "free love"
religion in Stranger In A Strange Land and the group marriages in works
such as the Moon Is A Harsh Mistress and Friday.
Public nudity as far back as The Puppet Master.
The age difference between Daniel and Ricky in the Door into Summer.
Brother sister incest and mother son in Time Enough For Love.
Sex with an audience...did that happen in Glory Road? With the audience
being her mother? Been a long time since I read it.
Then there was that the thing with a hermaphrodite becoming their own
father and mother in --All You Zombies--. It's hard to even define what
taboos that one violates. Gender boundaries. Mother/Father/Self incest.
I Will Fear No Evil: Mpreg. The whole dirty old man becomes hot young
woman and goes wild with it thing.
Which I figure leaves animals, robots, and furniture.
It is a little odd that sex with a nonhuman never happened.
Not in Heinlein's work, no. He left that for Niven.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Did Niven ever use it outside of near-relative species (descendents of Pak)?
Oh, yes. I forget the details now (haven't read him in years),
but IIRC there was a specific term for matress athletics outside
your own species.

And the Ninth Doctor's line about Jack Harkness. "He's from the
51st century. So many species, so little time."
Post by Johnny1A
_Homo sapiens_ has no known close species-kin alive today.
True, though I think the official genetic distance between humans
and chimpanzees has dropped from 3% to 1%.

I actually
Post by Johnny1A
have wondered just how close a non-human, non-interfertile species would
have to be for attraction to exist on a reliable basis.
The current thinking is that H. sapiens and H. neandertalensis
interbred, but that may yet change again, and I'm not sure how much it
establishes if H. neandertalensis was interfertile anyway.
I worked for several months for the late Allan Wilson, in whose
lab so much early DNA sequencing was done (the quagga, e.g.), and
Svante Paabo was a postdoc there. (I never met him.) He's now
in Munich, sequencing Neandertal and Denisovan and other
interesting DNAs right and left. If he says that as a person of
assorted Northern European descent I probably have some
Neandertal genes, I choose to believe him.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
David DeLaney
2018-04-26 00:20:11 UTC
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Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Oh, yes. I forget the details now (haven't read him in years),
but IIRC there was a specific term for matress athletics outside
your own species.
"rishathra".

Dave, and now you realize the brain cell holding that was still there, mua ha ha
--
\/David DeLaney posting thru EarthLink - "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
my gatekeeper archives are no longer accessible :( / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.
Johnny1A
2018-04-26 02:52:48 UTC
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Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Johnny1A
_Homo sapiens_ has no known close species-kin alive today.
True, though I think the official genetic distance between humans
and chimpanzees has dropped from 3% to 1%.
Which is sort of my point. Chimps and humans appear to be _very_ close on the tree, even if we restrict it to just mammals, or just primates. Yet very, very few humans and chimps are sexually drawn to each other. I'm sure it's _happened_, but there are people who have tried to mate with dolphins, too. It doesn't happen often enough that you could say humans and chimps find each other attractive as groups.

I just wonder how far two species could diverge from a common ancestor before mutual attraction mostly fizzled out. We don't have anything to base it on, other than that 'chimp/gorilla/other apes too far'. We don't know of anything closer than that to make an assessment with.
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
I actually
Post by Johnny1A
have wondered just how close a non-human, non-interfertile species would
have to be for attraction to exist on a reliable basis.
The current thinking is that H. sapiens and H. neandertalensis
interbred, but that may yet change again, and I'm not sure how much it
establishes if H. neandertalensis was interfertile anyway.
I worked for several months for the late Allan Wilson, in whose
lab so much early DNA sequencing was done (the quagga, e.g.), and
Svante Paabo was a postdoc there. (I never met him.) He's now
in Munich, sequencing Neandertal and Denisovan and other
interesting DNAs right and left. If he says that as a person of
assorted Northern European descent I probably have some
Neandertal genes, I choose to believe him.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
I don't _disbelieve_ him. I simply reserve judgement, because this argument (human/neandertal interaction) has gone back and forth so many times over the last century or so.
Greg Goss
2018-04-26 09:21:11 UTC
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Post by Johnny1A
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Johnny1A
_Homo sapiens_ has no known close species-kin alive today.
True, though I think the official genetic distance between humans
and chimpanzees has dropped from 3% to 1%.
Which is sort of my point. Chimps and humans appear to be _very_ close on the tree, even if we restrict it to just mammals, or just primates. Yet very, very few humans and chimps are sexually drawn to each other. I'm sure it's _happened_, but there are people who have tried to mate with dolphins, too. It doesn't happen often enough that you could say humans and chimps find each other attractive as groups.
I just wonder how far two species could diverge from a common ancestor before mutual attraction mostly fizzled out. We don't have anything to base it on, other than that 'chimp/gorilla/other apes too far'. We don't know of anything closer than that to make an assessment with.
A change in sexual signalling is one of the points that allows species
to diverge.
--
We are geeks. Resistance is voltage over current.
Quadibloc
2018-04-26 10:08:41 UTC
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Post by Johnny1A
Chimps and humans appear to be _very_ close on the tree,
Well, 1% isn't really "very" close. They're definitely not interfertile with
humans, as there are a *lot* of sequencing differences. As might well be
expected, given that they have 48 chromosomes while we have 46.

Basically, while all but 1% of genes being the same sounds impressive, a *lot*
of our genes date right back to the amoeba, the directions to build a basic
eukaryotic cell. Other big chunks relate to what we share with other
vertebrates, and what we share with other mammals.

As for Neanderthals: the reason that Neanderthal genes in humans are believed to
indicate interbreeding is that they're mostly found in Northern Europeans, who
had contact with Neanderthals. If they were from a common ancestor, they would
have also been present in (at least some random tribes of) Africans to a similar
degree... unless they were specifically adaptive to cold weather or something.

John Savard
Carl Fink
2018-04-26 12:24:39 UTC
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Post by Quadibloc
Basically, while all but 1% of genes being the same sounds impressive, a *lot*
of our genes date right back to the amoeba, the directions to build a basic
eukaryotic cell. Other big chunks relate to what we share with other
vertebrates, and what we share with other mammals.
Amoebas are not primitive. Their evolutionary history is exactly as long as
ours: we all descend from the same original bacterium-like organism.

We share far less than 50% of our genes with amoebae.
Post by Quadibloc
As for Neanderthals: the reason that Neanderthal genes in humans are believed to
indicate interbreeding is that they're mostly found in Northern Europeans
...
And none in Africans, indicating that the genes were only picked up after
the original H. sapiens groups left that continent and entered Eurasia.
(American and Polynesian and Australian humans all descend from groups that
first passed through Eurasia.)
--
Carl Fink ***@nitpicking.com

Read my blog at blog.nitpicking.com. Reviews! Observations!
Stupid mistakes you can correct!
Greg Goss
2018-04-26 09:19:37 UTC
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Post by Johnny1A
_Homo sapiens_ has no known close species-kin alive today. I
actu2ally have wondered just how close a non-human, non-interfertile species
would have to be for attraction to exist on a reliable basis.
Outside of laws and cultural prohibitions, I don't think that the
species line matters all that much to frustrated teens. (Kinsey)
Post by Johnny1A
The current thinking is that H. sapiens and H. neandertalensis interbred, but that may yet change again, and I'm not sure how much it establishes if H. neandertalensis was interfertile anyway.
There are also Denisovian genes in a smaller subset of modern humans.
--
We are geeks. Resistance is voltage over current.
Johnny1A
2018-04-27 03:06:07 UTC
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Post by Greg Goss
Post by Johnny1A
_Homo sapiens_ has no known close species-kin alive today. I
actu2ally have wondered just how close a non-human, non-interfertile species
would have to be for attraction to exist on a reliable basis.
Outside of laws and cultural prohibitions, I don't think that the
species line matters all that much to frustrated teens. (Kinsey)
Hard to say, since we have no data to work from. We don't have any other near-human species to test the hypothesis against.
Quadibloc
2018-04-26 10:02:09 UTC
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Post by Johnny1A
The current thinking is that H. sapiens and H. neandertalensis interbred, but
that may yet change again, and I'm not sure how much it establishes if H.
neandertalensis was interfertile anyway.
Since the evidence of interbreeding is Neanderthal genes in present-day humans,
that pretty much proves that there was issue from the matings.

John Savard
Ted Nolan <tednolan>
2018-04-24 21:06:08 UTC
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Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by David Johnston
Well monogamy obviously. Both in the sense of having a "free love"
religion in Stranger In A Strange Land and the group marriages in works
such as the Moon Is A Harsh Mistress and Friday.
Public nudity as far back as The Puppet Master.
The age difference between Daniel and Ricky in the Door into Summer.
Brother sister incest and mother son in Time Enough For Love.
Sex with an audience...did that happen in Glory Road? With the audience
being her mother? Been a long time since I read it.
Then there was that the thing with a hermaphrodite becoming their own
father and mother in --All You Zombies--. It's hard to even define what
taboos that one violates. Gender boundaries. Mother/Father/Self incest.
I Will Fear No Evil: Mpreg. The whole dirty old man becomes hot young
woman and goes wild with it thing.
Which I figure leaves animals, robots, and furniture.
I think that Gay Deceiver & Tik-Tok might have gotten it on had there
been time.
--
------
columbiaclosings.com
What's not in Columbia anymore..
Dorothy J Heydt
2018-04-24 21:20:49 UTC
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Post by David Johnston
The age difference between Daniel and Ricky in the Door into Summer.
I agree with the rest of your points, but not this one. What
happens when two people are intellectually and temperamentally
suited to each other, but not chronologically? In this case,
cold-sleep provides a way for her to grow to adulthood without
his getting any older. When she awakes, there is no
chronological barrier -- and note that *she* proposed to *him.*

Another example is a story by Ray Bradbury (I forget the title)
in which a young man discovers the person who is intellectually
and temperamentally suited to him -- only she's an elderly woman
who will die any day now. All they can do is hope for
reincarnation.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Kevrob
2018-04-24 21:50:40 UTC
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Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Another example is a story by Ray Bradbury (I forget the title)
in which a young man discovers the person who is intellectually
and temperamentally suited to him -- only she's an elderly woman
who will die any day now. All they can do is hope for
reincarnation.
There's always "Harold and Maude." :)

I loved Ruth Gordon, just not in "that way."

Kevin R
Greg Goss
2018-04-25 01:15:04 UTC
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Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by David Johnston
The age difference between Daniel and Ricky in the Door into Summer.
I agree with the rest of your points, but not this one. What
happens when two people are intellectually and temperamentally
suited to each other, but not chronologically? In this case,
cold-sleep provides a way for her to grow to adulthood without
his getting any older. When she awakes, there is no
chronological barrier -- and note that *she* proposed to *him.*
Another example is a story by Ray Bradbury (I forget the title)
in which a young man discovers the person who is intellectually
and temperamentally suited to him -- only she's an elderly woman
who will die any day now. All they can do is hope for
reincarnation.
(spoiler space)
























This is the coda to True Names, too.
--
We are geeks. Resistance is voltage over current.
Dorothy J Heydt
2018-04-25 04:00:03 UTC
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Post by Greg Goss
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by David Johnston
The age difference between Daniel and Ricky in the Door into Summer.
I agree with the rest of your points, but not this one. What
happens when two people are intellectually and temperamentally
suited to each other, but not chronologically? In this case,
cold-sleep provides a way for her to grow to adulthood without
his getting any older. When she awakes, there is no
chronological barrier -- and note that *she* proposed to *him.*
Another example is a story by Ray Bradbury (I forget the title)
in which a young man discovers the person who is intellectually
and temperamentally suited to him -- only she's an elderly woman
who will die any day now. All they can do is hope for
reincarnation.
(spoiler space)
This is the coda to True Names, too.
I never managed to get through that. Thanks for the spoiler.

(No, I mean that. I am a spoilerphile.)
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Greg Goss
2018-04-25 04:57:20 UTC
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Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Greg Goss
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by David Johnston
The age difference between Daniel and Ricky in the Door into Summer.
I agree with the rest of your points, but not this one. What
happens when two people are intellectually and temperamentally
suited to each other, but not chronologically? In this case,
cold-sleep provides a way for her to grow to adulthood without
his getting any older. When she awakes, there is no
chronological barrier -- and note that *she* proposed to *him.*
Another example is a story by Ray Bradbury (I forget the title)
in which a young man discovers the person who is intellectually
and temperamentally suited to him -- only she's an elderly woman
who will die any day now. All they can do is hope for
reincarnation.
(spoiler space)
This is the coda to True Names, too.
I never managed to get through that. Thanks for the spoiler.
(No, I mean that. I am a spoilerphile.)
The viewpoint character and the woman he won the war with. He's
getting romantically attached to her online persona, but can't figure
out why she seems to be keeping the AI code of the bad guy around. It
turns out that she's 80 or so and looking to upload herself into the
web.
--
We are geeks. Resistance is voltage over current.
a425couple
2018-04-25 03:18:08 UTC
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Well monogamy obviously.  ----
The age difference between Daniel and Ricky in the Door into Summer.
At their original ages, "Eleven-year-old Ricky loves thirty-year-old
Daniel." Her being eleven is a problem.

However 19 years difference, as in a 25 year old marrying a 44 year
old is not that very unusual.

from
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_disparity_in_sexual_relationships

Age difference Percentage of all married couples
Husband 20+ years older than wife 1.0
Husband 15–19 years older than wife 1.6
Husband 10–14 years older than wife 4.8

The "half-your-age-plus-seven" rule

Graph of the half-age-plus-seven rule
The "never date anyone under half your age plus seven" rule is a rule of
thumb sometimes used to prejudge whether an age difference is socially
acceptable.[62][63][64] Although the origin of the rule is unclear, it
is sometimes considered to have French origin.[62]

In earlier sources, the rule had a different interpretation than in
contemporary culture, as it was understood as a formula to calculate
ideal age for the bride, instead of a lower limit for the suitable age.
Max O'Rell's Her Royal Highness Woman from 1901 gives the rule in the
format "A man should marry a woman half his age, plus seven."[65]
Similar interpretation is also present in the 1951 play The Moon Is Blue
by F. Hugh Herbert.[66]

The half-your-age-plus seven rule also appears in John Fox, Jr.'s The
Little Shepherd of Kingdom Come in 1903,[67] in American newspapers in
1931, attributed to Maurice Chevalier,[68] and in The Autobiography of
Malcolm X.[69][page needed]

In modern times, this rule has been criticised as being more accurate
for men than women, and for allowing a greater maximum age for a woman's
partner later in her life than is actually socially acceptable.[70]
Greg Goss
2018-04-25 05:03:45 UTC
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Post by a425couple
The "half-your-age-plus-seven" rule
In 1996, I was 39. My late wife was 27, pretty much exactly half plus
seven.

But our culture moves so fast that backgrounds can be opaque with a 12
year gap.

"What was your favourite band, growing up?"
"The Guess Who, out of Winnipeg."
"I thought that they were British."

She had never heard of probably the top Canadian band of the end of
the sixties and start of the seventies.

In the first round of cancer, the local hospital called their
outpatient clinic "Day Care". I would joke at the office when I had
to leave early to "pick up my wife from daycare." The twelve year gap
often seemed pretty wide. Except she was smarter, more mature, and a
better people person than I ever was.

My second wife was (still is) older than me, and it didn't work out.
--
We are geeks. Resistance is voltage over current.
Kevrob
2018-04-25 09:15:13 UTC
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Post by Greg Goss
Post by a425couple
The "half-your-age-plus-seven" rule
In 1996, I was 39. My late wife was 27, pretty much exactly half plus
seven.
But our culture moves so fast that backgrounds can be opaque with a 12
year gap.
"What was your favourite band, growing up?"
"The Guess Who, out of Winnipeg."
"I thought that they were British."
She had never heard of probably the top Canadian band of the end of
the sixties and start of the seventies.
I have fond memories of staying up later than I should
have, listening to distant AM/mediumwave radio stations
through a monaural earphone, pulled in by my pocket-sized
transistor radio. CKLW, Windsor, ONT always came in strong.
They always seemed to break "Guess Who" tracks first, which
would be natural, even if there hadn't been "Canadian Content"
rules imposed by Ottawa. We have the CRTC's CC rules to thank
for Alice Cooper's breakout hit, "Eighteen."

[quote]

"Eighteen" was shoved into the Canadian content spotlight by CKLW,
hoping to appease the CRTC with the explanation that producer Bob
Ezrin (associate of Jack Richardson and Alice's actual producer) is
Canadian. By the time CKLW came to the realization that "Eighteen"
was as much Canadian content as baseball, they couldn't drop the single
from their playlist because the phone-in response from listeners was
nothing short of phenomenal. Requests for "Eighteen" flew in from all
corners and, before you could say easy action, CKLW had broken Alice's
first hit single. In a rather perverse roundabout way, the Canadian
content rulings made it possible for Alice Cooper to become the
marketing phenomenon it is.

[/quote] - http://www.alicecooperechive.com/articles/feature/beet/731000

Unintended consequences.

Kevin R
Richard Hershberger
2018-04-25 13:01:04 UTC
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Post by Greg Goss
Post by a425couple
The "half-your-age-plus-seven" rule
In 1996, I was 39. My late wife was 27, pretty much exactly half plus
seven.
But our culture moves so fast that backgrounds can be opaque with a 12
year gap.
"What was your favourite band, growing up?"
"The Guess Who, out of Winnipeg."
"I thought that they were British."
She had never heard of probably the top Canadian band of the end of
the sixties and start of the seventies.
In the first round of cancer, the local hospital called their
outpatient clinic "Day Care". I would joke at the office when I had
to leave early to "pick up my wife from daycare." The twelve year gap
often seemed pretty wide. Except she was smarter, more mature, and a
better people person than I ever was.
My second wife was (still is) older than me, and it didn't work out.
My wife is approximately 9.5 years younger than me. This can produce weird results if the discussion is about what was going on when I was in college, as she was still in elementary school. But that is kind of cheating. The decade of your teens is when you both change rapidly, and are aware of and remember these changes. Stuff that happened in my thirties? It is no big deal that she was in her twenties.

Her ObGyn was very concerned that she would be 35 when she gave birth. The doctor also asked her about my age. 45? No problem whatsoever. I have been giving her shit over this ever since.

Richard R. Hershberger
Peter Trei
2018-04-25 13:17:09 UTC
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Post by Richard Hershberger
Post by Greg Goss
Post by a425couple
The "half-your-age-plus-seven" rule
In 1996, I was 39. My late wife was 27, pretty much exactly half plus
seven.
But our culture moves so fast that backgrounds can be opaque with a 12
year gap.
"What was your favourite band, growing up?"
"The Guess Who, out of Winnipeg."
"I thought that they were British."
She had never heard of probably the top Canadian band of the end of
the sixties and start of the seventies.
In the first round of cancer, the local hospital called their
outpatient clinic "Day Care". I would joke at the office when I had
to leave early to "pick up my wife from daycare." The twelve year gap
often seemed pretty wide. Except she was smarter, more mature, and a
better people person than I ever was.
My second wife was (still is) older than me, and it didn't work out.
My wife is approximately 9.5 years younger than me. This can produce weird results if the discussion is about what was going on when I was in college, as she was still in elementary school. But that is kind of cheating. The decade of your teens is when you both change rapidly, and are aware of and remember these changes. Stuff that happened in my thirties? It is no big deal that she was in her twenties.
Her ObGyn was very concerned that she would be 35 when she gave birth. The doctor also asked her about my age. 45? No problem whatsoever. I have been giving her shit over this ever since.
Richard R. Hershberger
Of course, it works differently for the rich and famous.

Tony Randall's 2nd wife was 50 years younger than him, and they had two
children. He was 78 when the second was born.

Trump is 24 years older than his 3rd wife. He was nearly 60 when Barron was
born.

pt
Dorothy J Heydt
2018-04-25 13:41:51 UTC
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Post by Richard Hershberger
My wife is approximately 9.5 years younger than me. This can produce
weird results if the discussion is about what was going on when I was in
college, as she was still in elementary school. But that is kind of
cheating. The decade of your teens is when you both change rapidly, and
are aware of and remember these changes. Stuff that happened in my
thirties? It is no big deal that she was in her twenties.
Her ObGyn was very concerned that she would be 35 when she gave birth.
The doctor also asked her about my age. 45? No problem whatsoever. I
have been giving her shit over this ever since.
*You* didn't have to push another human out of your innards. Any
woman giving birth for the first time at 30 or older is described
as "an elderly primipara." My mother was 34 when I was born, and
had a very difficult time. I was 32 when my son was born, and
had almost as much trouble. My daughter was 33, and wound up
having a C-section.

On the other hand, my daughter-in-law was 35, and had no trouble
worth mentioning. It's not only age; it's physical condition and
maternal history; her mother had had no trouble with her either
(I don't know how old she was).
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Kevrob
2018-04-25 16:44:56 UTC
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Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Richard Hershberger
My wife is approximately 9.5 years younger than me. This can produce
weird results if the discussion is about what was going on when I was in
college, as she was still in elementary school. But that is kind of
cheating. The decade of your teens is when you both change rapidly, and
are aware of and remember these changes. Stuff that happened in my
thirties? It is no big deal that she was in her twenties.
Her ObGyn was very concerned that she would be 35 when she gave birth.
The doctor also asked her about my age. 45? No problem whatsoever. I
have been giving her shit over this ever since.
Some people who lived in the second half of the 20th Century in
the USA call this the "Strom Thurmond Rule."

How much older was Abraham than Sarah, according to the Old
Testament? I think there was a 10-year gap, which is nothing
for an antedeluvian patriarch. :)
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
*You* didn't have to push another human out of your innards. Any
woman giving birth for the first time at 30 or older is described
as "an elderly primipara." My mother was 34 when I was born, and
had a very difficult time. I was 32 when my son was born, and
had almost as much trouble. My daughter was 33, and wound up
having a C-section.
On the other hand, my daughter-in-law was 35, and had no trouble
worth mentioning. It's not only age; it's physical condition and
maternal history; her mother had had no trouble with her either
(I don't know how old she was).
There have been great advances in successful pregnancies
among *ahem* ..."more experienced".... women, in recent days.

This guy, however, has even Sen Thurmond beat:

Ramajit Raghav -

"World’s Oldest Dad, 96, Fathers Another Child"

http://newsfeed.time.com/2012/10/18/worlds-oldest-dad-96-fathers-another-child/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ramjit_Raghav

I'd be interested in a DNA or blood test, proving paternity.

Kevin R
Robert Carnegie
2018-04-25 22:22:20 UTC
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Post by Kevrob
Post by Richard Hershberger
My wife is approximately 9.5 years younger than me. This can produce
weird results if the discussion is about what was going on when I was in
college, as she was still in elementary school. But that is kind of
cheating. The decade of your teens is when you both change rapidly, and
are aware of and remember these changes. Stuff that happened in my
thirties? It is no big deal that she was in her twenties.
Her ObGyn was very concerned that she would be 35 when she gave birth.
The doctor also asked her about my age. 45? No problem whatsoever. I
have been giving her shit over this ever since.
Some people who lived in the second half of the 20th Century in
the USA call this the "Strom Thurmond Rule."
How much older was Abraham than Sarah, according to the Old
Testament? I think there was a 10-year gap, which is nothing
for an antedeluvian patriarch. :)
You keep using that word, I do not think it means what you
think it means ;-) (and it isn't spelled that way either).
Abraham? Antede... that??

The book says he lived to 175. Before the flood in the bible,
God says "Enough already with people living hundreds of years" -
who were just made up anyway. Here's someone wrestling with this
and claiming to have won: <https://www.gotquestions.org/age-limit.html>

I think I'll stick with atheism for now.
David DeLaney
2018-04-26 00:26:15 UTC
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Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by Kevrob
How much older was Abraham than Sarah, according to the Old
Testament? I think there was a 10-year gap, which is nothing
for an antedeluvian patriarch. :)
You keep using that word, I do not think it means what you
think it means ;-) (and it isn't spelled that way either).
Abraham? Antede... that??
Antediluvian - literally, "before the flood". Apres moi, le deluge?
Post by Robert Carnegie
The book says he lived to 175. Before the flood in the bible,
God says "Enough already with people living hundreds of years" -
who were just made up anyway. Here's someone wrestling with this
and claiming to have won: <https://www.gotquestions.org/age-limit.html>
Could be months, for the ones who were hundreds and hundreds; 969 months is
80 3/4 years...

Dave, still pretty old
--
\/David DeLaney posting thru EarthLink - "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
my gatekeeper archives are no longer accessible :( / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.
Quadibloc
2018-04-26 10:18:29 UTC
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Post by David DeLaney
Could be months, for the ones who were hundreds and hundreds; 969 months is
80 3/4 years...
Yes, the ratio of the numbers has the right value for that.

So this could be an error in translation; what is translated as "years" is
really in ancient Hebrew a neutral word with a meaning like "time cycle", and it
happened to mean a lunar time cycle in the early days until a calendar allowing
the less easily demarcatable passage of the seasons to be kept track of was
developed, when the term started to mean a solar time cycle.

John Savard
-dsr-
2018-04-26 16:09:55 UTC
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Post by Quadibloc
Post by David DeLaney
Could be months, for the ones who were hundreds and hundreds; 969 months is
80 3/4 years...
Yes, the ratio of the numbers has the right value for that.
So this could be an error in translation; what is translated as "years" is
really in ancient Hebrew a neutral word with a meaning like "time cycle", and it
happened to mean a lunar time cycle in the early days until a calendar allowing
the less easily demarcatable passage of the seasons to be kept track of was
developed, when the term started to mean a solar time cycle.
The word is shanah, and it definitely means year.

Month is chodesh, which doesn't look like shanah at all.

חֹדֶשׁ and שָׁנָה if that renders properly for you.

Genesis 7:11 starts "In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the
second month, on the seventeenth day of the month," using the same words,
shanah and chodesh.

So this doesn't look like a plausible mistake to make.

-dsr-
Quadibloc
2018-04-26 19:08:16 UTC
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Post by -dsr-
חֹדֶשׁ and שָׁנָה if that renders properly for you.
It does.
Post by -dsr-
Genesis 7:11 starts "In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the
second month, on the seventeenth day of the month," using the same words,
shanah and chodesh.
That pretty much puts paid to my notion, doesn't it?

Except for another well-known hypothesis: the Documentary Hypothesis.

So we can just stick Genesis 7:11 in P, and the original account of Noah's age
in J, and claim that in really *ancient* Hebrew, "shanah" meant month instead of
year, or could mean either, and "chodesh" got added to the language later, once
years became the main calendrical unit.

But, yes, that definitely means it isn't a mistake on the part of people
translating the Bible *from Hebrew into English*. I should have been more
precise.

John Savard
-dsr-
2018-04-27 11:28:11 UTC
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Post by Quadibloc
Post by -dsr-
חֹדֶשׁ and שָׁנָה if that renders properly for you.
It does.
Post by -dsr-
Genesis 7:11 starts "In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the
second month, on the seventeenth day of the month," using the same words,
shanah and chodesh.
That pretty much puts paid to my notion, doesn't it?
Except for another well-known hypothesis: the Documentary Hypothesis.
So we can just stick Genesis 7:11 in P, and the original account of Noah's age
in J, and claim that in really *ancient* Hebrew, "shanah" meant month instead of
year, or could mean either, and "chodesh" got added to the language later, once
years became the main calendrical unit.
Now you're multiplying entities needlessly.

Hypothesis 1: this is a story passed down for quite some time before
it was written down, was edited several times before becoming "Torah",
and does indeed claim that various people lived implausibly long lives.

Hypothesis 2: G-d dictated the Torah to Moses, who wrote it down and it
has been more or less unaltered ever since.

H2 requires faith, because there's no evidence for it; H1 is generally accepted.

Trying to come up with H1.5, in which multiple changes confirm the
accuracy of the story while invoking natural explanations for supernatural
events, has a long history, but it's not convincing to anyone who doesn't
really believe in H2.

-dsr-
J. Clarke
2018-04-27 00:03:11 UTC
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On Thu, 26 Apr 2018 12:09:55 -0400, -dsr-
Post by -dsr-
Post by Quadibloc
Post by David DeLaney
Could be months, for the ones who were hundreds and hundreds; 969 months is
80 3/4 years...
Yes, the ratio of the numbers has the right value for that.
So this could be an error in translation; what is translated as "years" is
really in ancient Hebrew a neutral word with a meaning like "time cycle", and it
happened to mean a lunar time cycle in the early days until a calendar allowing
the less easily demarcatable passage of the seasons to be kept track of was
developed, when the term started to mean a solar time cycle.
The word is shanah, and it definitely means year.
Month is chodesh, which doesn't look like shanah at all.
You say this with great certainty. Is there a source contemporary
with Genesis that supports this distinction? Or do you have a TARDIS?
Post by -dsr-
?????? and ?????? if that renders properly for you.
Genesis 7:11 starts "In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the
second month, on the seventeenth day of the month," using the same words,
shanah and chodesh.
So this doesn't look like a plausible mistake to make.
-dsr-
-dsr-
2018-04-27 11:32:01 UTC
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Post by J. Clarke
On Thu, 26 Apr 2018 12:09:55 -0400, -dsr-
Post by -dsr-
Post by Quadibloc
So this could be an error in translation; what is translated as "years" is
really in ancient Hebrew a neutral word with a meaning like "time cycle", and it
happened to mean a lunar time cycle in the early days until a calendar allowing
the less easily demarcatable passage of the seasons to be kept track of was
developed, when the term started to mean a solar time cycle.
The word is shanah, and it definitely means year.
Month is chodesh, which doesn't look like shanah at all.
You say this with great certainty. Is there a source contemporary
with Genesis that supports this distinction? Or do you have a TARDIS?
Post by -dsr-
?????? and ?????? if that renders properly for you.
Genesis 7:11 starts "In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the
second month, on the seventeenth day of the month," using the same words,
shanah and chodesh.
Yeah, it's over there in Genesis 7:11 where the words appear next to each other in the
same sentence, along with "yom", meaning day.

The hypothesis described a shift in meaning for shanah originally meaning month and
then being adapted to mean year, but the context clearly has years, months and days
describing the lifetime of Noah. The hypothesis is not supported, unless you want to add
epicycles.

-dsr-
J. Clarke
2018-04-28 01:56:43 UTC
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On Fri, 27 Apr 2018 07:32:01 -0400, -dsr-
Post by -dsr-
Post by J. Clarke
On Thu, 26 Apr 2018 12:09:55 -0400, -dsr-
Post by -dsr-
Post by Quadibloc
So this could be an error in translation; what is translated as "years" is
really in ancient Hebrew a neutral word with a meaning like "time cycle", and it
happened to mean a lunar time cycle in the early days until a calendar allowing
the less easily demarcatable passage of the seasons to be kept track of was
developed, when the term started to mean a solar time cycle.
The word is shanah, and it definitely means year.
Month is chodesh, which doesn't look like shanah at all.
You say this with great certainty. Is there a source contemporary
with Genesis that supports this distinction? Or do you have a TARDIS?
Post by -dsr-
?????? and ?????? if that renders properly for you.
Genesis 7:11 starts "In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the
second month, on the seventeenth day of the month," using the same words,
shanah and chodesh.
Yeah, it's over there in Genesis 7:11 where the words appear next to each other in the
same sentence, along with "yom", meaning day.
The hypothesis described a shift in meaning for shanah originally meaning month and
then being adapted to mean year, but the context clearly has years, months and days
describing the lifetime of Noah. The hypothesis is not supported, unless you want to add
epicycles.
It clearly has somethings, somethings, and somethings describing the
life of Noah. But that doesn't necessarily mean somethings that are
familiar to us.
-dsr-
2018-04-28 15:03:08 UTC
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Post by J. Clarke
On Fri, 27 Apr 2018 07:32:01 -0400, -dsr-
Post by -dsr-
Post by J. Clarke
On Thu, 26 Apr 2018 12:09:55 -0400, -dsr-
Post by -dsr-
Post by Quadibloc
So this could be an error in translation; what is translated as "years" is
really in ancient Hebrew a neutral word with a meaning like "time cycle", and it
happened to mean a lunar time cycle in the early days until a calendar allowing
the less easily demarcatable passage of the seasons to be kept track of was
developed, when the term started to mean a solar time cycle.
The word is shanah, and it definitely means year.
Month is chodesh, which doesn't look like shanah at all.
You say this with great certainty. Is there a source contemporary
with Genesis that supports this distinction? Or do you have a TARDIS?
Post by -dsr-
?????? and ?????? if that renders properly for you.
Genesis 7:11 starts "In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the
second month, on the seventeenth day of the month," using the same words,
shanah and chodesh.
Yeah, it's over there in Genesis 7:11 where the words appear next to each other in the
same sentence, along with "yom", meaning day.
The hypothesis described a shift in meaning for shanah originally meaning month and
then being adapted to mean year, but the context clearly has years, months and days
describing the lifetime of Noah. The hypothesis is not supported, unless you want to add
epicycles.
It clearly has somethings, somethings, and somethings describing the
life of Noah. But that doesn't necessarily mean somethings that are
familiar to us.
I find it much more likely that the story was written down in whatever
fashion seemed best to the scribe than to invent three simultaneous word
meaning shifts that made grammatical and logical sense both before and
after.

I also note that in a game of escalating hypotheses, where one side has
some evidence and the other gets to make up stories, the side that makes
up stories also gets to make up the story where they win. So, congratulations.

-dsr-
J. Clarke
2018-04-28 17:52:39 UTC
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On Sat, 28 Apr 2018 11:03:08 -0400, -dsr-
Post by -dsr-
Post by J. Clarke
On Fri, 27 Apr 2018 07:32:01 -0400, -dsr-
Post by -dsr-
Post by J. Clarke
On Thu, 26 Apr 2018 12:09:55 -0400, -dsr-
Post by -dsr-
Post by Quadibloc
So this could be an error in translation; what is translated as "years" is
really in ancient Hebrew a neutral word with a meaning like "time cycle", and it
happened to mean a lunar time cycle in the early days until a calendar allowing
the less easily demarcatable passage of the seasons to be kept track of was
developed, when the term started to mean a solar time cycle.
The word is shanah, and it definitely means year.
Month is chodesh, which doesn't look like shanah at all.
You say this with great certainty. Is there a source contemporary
with Genesis that supports this distinction? Or do you have a TARDIS?
Post by -dsr-
?????? and ?????? if that renders properly for you.
Genesis 7:11 starts "In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the
second month, on the seventeenth day of the month," using the same words,
shanah and chodesh.
Yeah, it's over there in Genesis 7:11 where the words appear next to each other in the
same sentence, along with "yom", meaning day.
The hypothesis described a shift in meaning for shanah originally meaning month and
then being adapted to mean year, but the context clearly has years, months and days
describing the lifetime of Noah. The hypothesis is not supported, unless you want to add
epicycles.
It clearly has somethings, somethings, and somethings describing the
life of Noah. But that doesn't necessarily mean somethings that are
familiar to us.
I find it much more likely that the story was written down in whatever
fashion seemed best to the scribe than to invent three simultaneous word
meaning shifts that made grammatical and logical sense both before and
after.
What seemed best to the scribe might not bear any resemblance to what
makes sense to us.
Post by -dsr-
I also note that in a game of escalating hypotheses, where one side has
some evidence and the other gets to make up stories, the side that makes
up stories also gets to make up the story where they win. So, congratulations.
Why are you so angry about this? There are three possibilities:
1. People in those days lived for hundreds of years
2. The Bible lies
3. They lived for hundreds of somethings that are not years.

I don't buy 1 and 2 seems gratuitous stupidity in this case so 3 does
not seem unreasonable.
David DeLaney
2018-04-29 08:42:46 UTC
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Post by -dsr-
I also note that in a game of escalating hypotheses, where one side has
some evidence and the other gets to make up stories, the side that makes
up stories also gets to make up the story where they win. So, congratulations.
... well played, m'sieur.

Dave, the only way to win
--
\/David DeLaney posting thru EarthLink - "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
my gatekeeper archives are no longer accessible :( / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.
Kevrob
2018-04-26 00:41:13 UTC
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Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by Kevrob
Some people who lived in the second half of the 20th Century in
the USA call this the "Strom Thurmond Rule."
How much older was Abraham than Sarah, according to the Old
Testament? I think there was a 10-year gap, which is nothing
for an antedeluvian patriarch. :)
You keep using that word, I do not think it means what you
think it means ;-)
Keep...? when was the last time I used it on USENET?

I quoted Keith when he used it back in October:

Message-ID: <afee7986-1151-4d7f-92c7-***@googlegroups.com>

(Tim Merrigan quoted Keith, and so on....)

They managed to spell it right.

(and it isn't spelled that way either).

I mistyped ONE vowel.....
Post by Robert Carnegie
Abraham? Antede... that??
The book says he lived to 175. Before the flood in the bible,
God says "Enough already with people living hundreds of years" -
who were just made up anyway. Here's someone wrestling with this
and claiming to have won: <https://www.gotquestions.org/age-limit.html>
I think I'll stick with atheism for now.
I stick to that, too. I looked at a site with the supposed lifespans,
and forgot Abe is after Noah. Postdiluvian, then.

I sprawl corrected. {I'm reclining like a Roman, with
one eye on the Mets @ Cards on the televisor.)

Kevin R
Lawrence Watt-Evans
2018-04-25 18:08:25 UTC
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Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Richard Hershberger
My wife is approximately 9.5 years younger than me. This can produce
weird results if the discussion is about what was going on when I was in
college, as she was still in elementary school. But that is kind of
cheating. The decade of your teens is when you both change rapidly, and
are aware of and remember these changes. Stuff that happened in my
thirties? It is no big deal that she was in her twenties.
Her ObGyn was very concerned that she would be 35 when she gave birth.
The doctor also asked her about my age. 45? No problem whatsoever. I
have been giving her shit over this ever since.
There's recent evidence that in fact, not only does male fertility
decrease somewhat with age, but the likelihood of genetic damage
resulting in birth defects and other problems also increases in
fathers over 45.

Still a lot easier than for older women, though.
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
*You* didn't have to push another human out of your innards. Any
woman giving birth for the first time at 30 or older is described
as "an elderly primipara." My mother was 34 when I was born, and
had a very difficult time. I was 32 when my son was born, and
had almost as much trouble. My daughter was 33, and wound up
having a C-section.
On the other hand, my daughter-in-law was 35, and had no trouble
worth mentioning. It's not only age; it's physical condition and
maternal history; her mother had had no trouble with her either
(I don't know how old she was).
My mother said each pregnancy (she had eight, but may only have been
counting the six that resulted in live births) was easier than the one
before, and each delivery quicker and easier. She started at
twenty-six and finished at thirty-nine.

Each baby was larger than the one before, too. My youngest sister was
huge -- somerthing like 11 lbs.. I was the fourth; at over 9 lbs., I
wasn't exactly small.
--
My webpage is at http://www.watt-evans.com
My latest novel is Stone Unturned: A Legend of Ethshar.
See http://www.ethshar.com/StoneUnturned.shtml
Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
2018-04-25 18:10:45 UTC
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Post by Lawrence Watt-Evans
Each baby was larger than the one before, too. My youngest
sister was huge -- somerthing like 11 lbs.. I was the fourth;
at over 9 lbs., I wasn't exactly small.
That was true for my mother, too. I was fourth (with on stillborn),
and was 12 pounds, 4-1/2 ounces (and she never let me forget it). My
father was infromed there would *not* be any more children.
--
Terry Austin

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.
Lawrence Watt-Evans
2018-04-25 19:24:12 UTC
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On Wed, 25 Apr 2018 11:10:45 -0700, Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
Post by Lawrence Watt-Evans
Each baby was larger than the one before, too. My youngest
sister was huge -- somerthing like 11 lbs.. I was the fourth;
at over 9 lbs., I wasn't exactly small.
That was true for my mother, too. I was fourth (with on stillborn),
and was 12 pounds, 4-1/2 ounces (and she never let me forget it). My
father was infromed there would *not* be any more children.
My parents only stopped because they ran out of money and couldn't
afford a seventh; they'd originally planned on eight. Had two more
names picked out and everything. (Malcolm and Colin -- they'd used up
all their girls' names.)

My mother loved being pregnant, really enjoyed the hormones. Yes, I
know that's a bit weird. And the size wasn't THAT big a problem for
her; she was 5'11" and not skinny. So she wouldn't have minded
another if they'd had the money.
--
My webpage is at http://www.watt-evans.com
My latest novel is Stone Unturned: A Legend of Ethshar.
See http://www.ethshar.com/StoneUnturned.shtml
Moriarty
2018-04-26 01:22:22 UTC
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On Thursday, April 26, 2018 at 5:24:15 AM UTC+10, Lawrence Watt-Evans wrote:

<snip>
Post by Lawrence Watt-Evans
My parents only stopped because they ran out of money and couldn't
afford a seventh; they'd originally planned on eight. Had two more
names picked out and everything. (Malcolm and Colin -- they'd used up
all their girls' names.)
My mother loved being pregnant, really enjoyed the hormones. Yes, I
know that's a bit weird.
Is it? In my experience, plenty of women enjoy pregnancy. Particularly the second trimester, after any morning sickness is gone and before they get too big.

In my wife's case, she barely had morning sickness and the only real discomfort came about because the latter stages of both pregnancies took place in the sweltering Sydney summer. The second one was worse than the first as she also had a toddler to deal with.

Of course she hated the actual births. In fact, the second one would have killed her if it had happened mere decades earlier as she hemorrhaged and lost LOTS of blood.

-Moriarty
Dorothy J Heydt
2018-04-26 02:11:44 UTC
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Post by Moriarty
<snip>
Post by Lawrence Watt-Evans
My parents only stopped because they ran out of money and couldn't
afford a seventh; they'd originally planned on eight. Had two more
names picked out and everything. (Malcolm and Colin -- they'd used up
all their girls' names.)
My mother loved being pregnant, really enjoyed the hormones. Yes, I
know that's a bit weird.
Is it? In my experience, plenty of women enjoy pregnancy. Particularly
the second trimester, after any morning sickness is gone and before they
get too big.
Well, for me the first trimester was nausea, the second,
increasing lethargy and heaviness, and the third,
indistinguishable from being a beached whale.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Moriarty
2018-04-26 03:06:54 UTC
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Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Moriarty
<snip>
Post by Lawrence Watt-Evans
My parents only stopped because they ran out of money and couldn't
afford a seventh; they'd originally planned on eight. Had two more
names picked out and everything. (Malcolm and Colin -- they'd used up
all their girls' names.)
My mother loved being pregnant, really enjoyed the hormones. Yes, I
know that's a bit weird.
Is it? In my experience, plenty of women enjoy pregnancy. Particularly
the second trimester, after any morning sickness is gone and before they
get too big.
Well, for me the first trimester was nausea, the second,
increasing lethargy and heaviness, and the third,
indistinguishable from being a beached whale.
Obviously there's a spectrum with Lawrence's mum right at one end, my wife a bit further back and you further back still.

Right at the other end are those unfortunate women who suffer from conditions like hyperemesis gravidarum which, as I understand it, is severe morning sickness for nine months straight. Not just in the morning either. For them, uterine replicators can't come fast enough.

Heh, the lethargy. I remember one time, early in her first pregnancy, when my wife fell asleep mid sentence when we had guests over. It was very funny at the time. Luckily for her, that phase passed quickly.

-Moriarty
Dorothy J Heydt
2018-04-26 04:20:31 UTC
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Post by Moriarty
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Moriarty
<snip>
Post by Lawrence Watt-Evans
My parents only stopped because they ran out of money and couldn't
afford a seventh; they'd originally planned on eight. Had two more
names picked out and everything. (Malcolm and Colin -- they'd used up
all their girls' names.)
My mother loved being pregnant, really enjoyed the hormones. Yes, I
know that's a bit weird.
Is it? In my experience, plenty of women enjoy pregnancy. Particularly
the second trimester, after any morning sickness is gone and before they
get too big.
Well, for me the first trimester was nausea, the second,
increasing lethargy and heaviness, and the third,
indistinguishable from being a beached whale.
Obviously there's a spectrum with Lawrence's mum right at one end, my
wife a bit further back and you further back still.
Right at the other end are those unfortunate women who suffer from
conditions like hyperemesis gravidarum which, as I understand it, is
severe morning sickness for nine months straight. Not just in the
morning either. For them, uterine replicators can't come fast enough.
Yup. The Duchess of Cambridge, e.g. (I'm sort of hoping that
now that the Cambridges have an heir and *two* spares, she'll
be allowed to stop.)
Post by Moriarty
Heh, the lethargy. I remember one time, early in her first pregnancy,
when my wife fell asleep mid sentence when we had guests over. It was
very funny at the time. Luckily for her, that phase passed quickly.
I can relate. I don't think I ever fell asleep in mid-sentence,
but certainly in mid-thought.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Greg Goss
2018-04-26 09:29:50 UTC
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Post by Moriarty
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Moriarty
Is it? In my experience, plenty of women enjoy pregnancy. Particularly
the second trimester, after any morning sickness is gone and before they
get too big.
Well, for me the first trimester was nausea, the second,
increasing lethargy and heaviness, and the third,
indistinguishable from being a beached whale.
Obviously there's a spectrum with Lawrence's mum right at one end, my wife a bit further back and you further back still.
My mother wanted to clean up her desk before taking a few months off
to start raising my sister. So she worked to 4:30 on "the day". My
sister was born onto the gurney in the elevator at about 8:30.

So it sounds like my mother (at least for #4) was off at the left end,
too.
--
We are geeks. Resistance is voltage over current.
Lawrence Watt-Evans
2018-04-26 07:04:25 UTC
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On Wed, 25 Apr 2018 18:22:22 -0700 (PDT), Moriarty
Post by Moriarty
<snip>
Post by Lawrence Watt-Evans
My parents only stopped because they ran out of money and couldn't
afford a seventh; they'd originally planned on eight. Had two more
names picked out and everything. (Malcolm and Colin -- they'd used up
all their girls' names.)
My mother loved being pregnant, really enjoyed the hormones. Yes, I
know that's a bit weird.
Is it? In my experience, plenty of women enjoy pregnancy. Particularly the second trimester, after any morning sickness is gone and before they get too big.
In my wife's case, she barely had morning sickness and the only real discomfort came about because the latter stages of both pregnancies took place in the sweltering Sydney summer. The second one was worse than the first as she also had a toddler to deal with.
This is why four of my siblings were born in the spring. The oldest
was born in November, and my mother discovered that while she
generally loved being pregnant, it was a lot less fun in the
pre-air-conditioning New England summer and Indian summer. After
that, my parents tried to schedule each pregnancy to run through the
winter and end in spring, so my other four siblings were born in May,
April, March, and February -- conception happened more quickly each
time, so it kept moving earlier.

I was an accident, though, and was born in late July. The kid who was
SUPPOSED to be born in late March of 1954 miscarried, and my parents
were a bit careless on the assumption that it takes a month or two
after a miscarriage before a woman is fertile again.

Turns out it doesn't, and here I am.
--
My webpage is at http://www.watt-evans.com
My latest novel is Stone Unturned: A Legend of Ethshar.
See http://www.ethshar.com/StoneUnturned.shtml
Lynn McGuire
2018-04-26 18:20:20 UTC
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Post by Lawrence Watt-Evans
On Wed, 25 Apr 2018 18:22:22 -0700 (PDT), Moriarty
Post by Moriarty
<snip>
Post by Lawrence Watt-Evans
My parents only stopped because they ran out of money and couldn't
afford a seventh; they'd originally planned on eight. Had two more
names picked out and everything. (Malcolm and Colin -- they'd used up
all their girls' names.)
My mother loved being pregnant, really enjoyed the hormones. Yes, I
know that's a bit weird.
Is it? In my experience, plenty of women enjoy pregnancy. Particularly the second trimester, after any morning sickness is gone and before they get too big.
In my wife's case, she barely had morning sickness and the only real discomfort came about because the latter stages of both pregnancies took place in the sweltering Sydney summer. The second one was worse than the first as she also had a toddler to deal with.
This is why four of my siblings were born in the spring. The oldest
was born in November, and my mother discovered that while she
generally loved being pregnant, it was a lot less fun in the
pre-air-conditioning New England summer and Indian summer. After
that, my parents tried to schedule each pregnancy to run through the
winter and end in spring, so my other four siblings were born in May,
April, March, and February -- conception happened more quickly each
time, so it kept moving earlier.
I was an accident, though, and was born in late July. The kid who was
SUPPOSED to be born in late March of 1954 miscarried, and my parents
were a bit careless on the assumption that it takes a month or two
after a miscarriage before a woman is fertile again.
Turns out it doesn't, and here I am.
My mother told me recently that I was five years premature. I was born
11 months after they married in 1959. My father started grad school for
his PhD in Chemical Engineering at Princeton two months after I was
born. I'll guess that I was the impetus on getting his PhD in just
three years.

Lynn
Lawrence Watt-Evans
2018-04-26 18:26:58 UTC
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On Thu, 26 Apr 2018 13:20:20 -0500, Lynn McGuire
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by Lawrence Watt-Evans
On Wed, 25 Apr 2018 18:22:22 -0700 (PDT), Moriarty
Post by Moriarty
<snip>
Post by Lawrence Watt-Evans
My parents only stopped because they ran out of money and couldn't
afford a seventh; they'd originally planned on eight. Had two more
names picked out and everything. (Malcolm and Colin -- they'd used up
all their girls' names.)
I was an accident, though, and was born in late July. The kid who was
SUPPOSED to be born in late March of 1954 miscarried, and my parents
were a bit careless on the assumption that it takes a month or two
after a miscarriage before a woman is fertile again.
Turns out it doesn't, and here I am.
My mother told me recently that I was five years premature. I was born
11 months after they married in 1959. My father started grad school for
his PhD in Chemical Engineering at Princeton two months after I was
born. I'll guess that I was the impetus on getting his PhD in just
three years.
My Dad got his doctorate in chemistry in three years, too, and my
oldest sister being born during those three years may have had
something to do with it.
--
My webpage is at http://www.watt-evans.com
My latest novel is Stone Unturned: A Legend of Ethshar.
See http://www.ethshar.com/StoneUnturned.shtml
Moriarty
2018-04-26 22:06:57 UTC
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Post by Lawrence Watt-Evans
On Thu, 26 Apr 2018 13:20:20 -0500, Lynn McGuire
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by Lawrence Watt-Evans
On Wed, 25 Apr 2018 18:22:22 -0700 (PDT), Moriarty
Post by Moriarty
<snip>
Post by Lawrence Watt-Evans
My parents only stopped because they ran out of money and couldn't
afford a seventh; they'd originally planned on eight. Had two more
names picked out and everything. (Malcolm and Colin -- they'd used up
all their girls' names.)
I was an accident, though, and was born in late July. The kid who was
SUPPOSED to be born in late March of 1954 miscarried, and my parents
were a bit careless on the assumption that it takes a month or two
after a miscarriage before a woman is fertile again.
Turns out it doesn't, and here I am.
My mother told me recently that I was five years premature. I was born
11 months after they married in 1959. My father started grad school for
his PhD in Chemical Engineering at Princeton two months after I was
born. I'll guess that I was the impetus on getting his PhD in just
three years.
My Dad got his doctorate in chemistry in three years, too, and my
oldest sister being born during those three years may have had
something to do with it.
I, on the other hand, lazed around and took 6 years to finish my doctorate. The hardest I worked was when my wife and I decided it was time to have a baby, giving me a nine month deadline to finish it and get a job.

I ended up submitting about a week after the birth.

-Moriarty
Carl Fink
2018-04-27 14:03:34 UTC
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Post by Moriarty
I, on the other hand, lazed around and took 6 years to finish my
doctorate. The hardest I worked was when my wife and I decided it was
time to have a baby, giving me a nine month deadline to finish it and get
a job.
I started college in 1978. I might get my Masters in 2019.
Post by Moriarty
I ended up submitting about a week after the birth.
Hey, your private proclivities are your own business!
--
Carl Fink ***@nitpicking.com

Read my blog at blog.nitpicking.com. Reviews! Observations!
Stupid mistakes you can correct!
Lawrence Watt-Evans
2018-04-27 15:55:30 UTC
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Post by Carl Fink
Post by Moriarty
I, on the other hand, lazed around and took 6 years to finish my
doctorate. The hardest I worked was when my wife and I decided it was
time to have a baby, giving me a nine month deadline to finish it and get
a job.
I started college in 1978. I might get my Masters in 2019.
Well, if you're going to be like that, as an undergraduate I took a
leave of absence in 1977, and haven't gone back for senior year yet.
--
My webpage is at http://www.watt-evans.com
My latest novel is Stone Unturned: A Legend of Ethshar.
See http://www.ethshar.com/StoneUnturned.shtml
Kevrob
2018-04-27 16:59:34 UTC
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Post by Lawrence Watt-Evans
Post by Carl Fink
Post by Moriarty
I, on the other hand, lazed around and took 6 years to finish my
doctorate. The hardest I worked was when my wife and I decided it was
time to have a baby, giving me a nine month deadline to finish it and get
a job.
I started college in 1978. I might get my Masters in 2019.
Well, if you're going to be like that, as an undergraduate I took a
leave of absence in 1977, and haven't gone back for senior year yet.
I took my undergraduate LoA in early `78, and re-matriculated 5
years later. Good thing, too, because if my re-entry date was more
than 10 years beyond when I originally enrolled, whatever new
requirements for my BA had been installed in the interim would
have affected me, and I might have had to take additional courses
to meet said requirements, at extra cost. Getting back to school
"under the wire" may have saved me $ks. Conversely, the thought
any of the credits I had earned might expire, and the course have
to be retaken. Said threat of even more $ks of money - scholarship
money, loans and even cash I had worked for - disappearing in a puff
of bureaucracy did motivate me to get my butt back in college
and get those last 30 credits!

The school was very understanding when I pulled out for health
reasons. My stint i the workforce made me a more serious student,
too. I got my best grades in my final 3 semesters. Being healthy,
at last, probably helped, as did having limited time to goof off. :)

Kevin R
Dorothy J Heydt
2018-04-25 19:29:10 UTC
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Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
Post by Lawrence Watt-Evans
Each baby was larger than the one before, too. My youngest
sister was huge -- somerthing like 11 lbs.. I was the fourth;
at over 9 lbs., I wasn't exactly small.
That was true for my mother, too. I was fourth (with on stillborn),
and was 12 pounds, 4-1/2 ounces (and she never let me forget it). My
father was infromed there would *not* be any more children.
Ouch. I don't blame her.

As I said upthread, my first was 11 lb. 1 oz, my second 8/11.
After that we didn't have any more either.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
2018-04-25 19:50:21 UTC
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Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
Post by Lawrence Watt-Evans
Each baby was larger than the one before, too. My youngest
sister was huge -- somerthing like 11 lbs.. I was the fourth;
at over 9 lbs., I wasn't exactly small.
That was true for my mother, too. I was fourth (with on
stillborn), and was 12 pounds, 4-1/2 ounces (and she never let
me forget it). My father was infromed there would *not* be any
more children.
Ouch. I don't blame her.
Neither do I. IIRC, I was also two weeks late, and insisted on solid
food the day she took me home from the hospital.
--
Terry Austin

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.
Dorothy J Heydt
2018-04-25 20:56:56 UTC
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Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
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Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
Post by Lawrence Watt-Evans
Each baby was larger than the one before, too. My youngest
sister was huge -- somerthing like 11 lbs.. I was the fourth;
at over 9 lbs., I wasn't exactly small.
That was true for my mother, too. I was fourth (with on
stillborn), and was 12 pounds, 4-1/2 ounces (and she never let
me forget it). My father was infromed there would *not* be any
more children.
Ouch. I don't blame her.
Neither do I. IIRC, I was also two weeks late, and insisted on solid
food the day she took me home from the hospital.
Well, my 11-pound son was three weeks late. He didn't insist on
solid food at birth, but when he started teething we gave him a
chunk of hard salami, which he found very satisfactory.

My daughter got to *one* week late, at which point my doctors
said, "Not again! Here, take this pill, guaranteed to choke any
horse, and we'll put the railings up and let you get some sleep.
In the morning we'll induce." So they did, and my daughter
arrived about thirty minutes later. I have a picture of her at
about 30 seconds old, crossly opening one eye with an expression
of "What? You woke me up for *this?*"

Since her brother was staying with my sister-in-law and we wanted
to get everybody home as soon as possible, Hal went to the
pediatrician and asked if it was okay to take Meg home. He said,
"Well, you'll have to bring her back in tomorrow for the PKU
test. If you do that, yeah, you can take the baby home, if it's
okay with the OB to take Dorothy home."

Then he went to the OB and explained that we wanted to go home
that afternoon. The OB said, "Well, if it's all right with the
pediatrician ..."

Rather like the old parental strategy: "Go ask your
father/mother, dear, and see what he/she says."

So we went to the newborn nursery and, armed with two sets of
permissions, asked the nurses to wrap Meg up, we'd take her with
us. The elder of the two nurses was a starched old dragon whose
unspoken attitude was "Back when I was in training, we didn't let
anybody go home for two weeks!" But she was also trained to
accept the doctors' words as law, so she grumpily went off and
fetched the baby. And the younger of the two nurses looked at
her and said, ...

wait for it, wait for it ...

"Is she early, dear? She has the look of a baby who's about two
weeks early."

So it appeared Meg wanted to stay in for the full three extra
weeks too, only they wouldn't let her.

Due dates are Platonic ideals anyway, not to be relied upon too
heavily.

I remember a doctor we used to know (not as patients) who told us
some stories about when he was in OB/GYN. One was a woman who
came in at the beginning of her ninth month, and he'd taken a
look and said, "You're fully dilated. Let's get you into the
hospital (fortunately, across the street from his office). "I
can't do that!" she cried. "I'm supposed to meet my husband for
lunch!"

"You are Fully Dilated," he answered, "and you're going Into the
Hospital." And the baby arrived about half an hour later. Some
people have it easy. (I think it was not her first baby, and
it's possible she miscalculated.)

He said the first law of obstetrics was, "Never trust a multipara."
And the second law of obstetrics was, "Never trust a primipara
either."

And the time he was a shiny new intern, and he and his class were
doing the OB ward for the very first day. So the head of OB came
by and said, "Well, gentlemen, you've had a few hours on OB now,
and it's time for me to tell you how to distinguish true from
false labor."

And they all leaned forward eagerly, and he stood in front of the
swinging doors into the ward and said, "The way you distinguish
true from false labor is that true labor results in the delivery
of an infant." And vanished between the swinging doors before
they could react.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Greg Goss
2018-04-26 09:35:54 UTC
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Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Due dates are Platonic ideals anyway, not to be relied upon too
heavily.
Friends of mine have a daughter. Mom went into pre-eclampsia and they
did a C-section something like five weeks early. But the kid was as
healthy as a horse, and If I recall correctly they went home on day
three.

The kid was still a negative age when they brought her to our
housewarming party and showed her around to the crowd.

(At about the official due date, they stopped with the negative
numbers and switched to the proper birth-based age.)
--
We are geeks. Resistance is voltage over current.
Dorothy J Heydt
2018-04-25 19:27:55 UTC
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Post by Lawrence Watt-Evans
My mother said each pregnancy (she had eight, but may only have been
counting the six that resulted in live births) was easier than the one
before, and each delivery quicker and easier. She started at
twenty-six and finished at thirty-nine.
Each baby was larger than the one before, too. My youngest sister was
huge -- somerthing like 11 lbs.. I was the fourth; at over 9 lbs., I
wasn't exactly small.
My *first* was exactly five kilos, or 11 lb. 1 oz. He had some
respiratory trouble when he was born and was taken to the ICU at
Children's Hospital of the East Bay. When we got in to see him,
we walked past three little cots holding three little preemies
under heat lamps, and there was Tris, in a tiny isolette, his
head and feet touching the ends.

(He's fine now, about to turn 44.)
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Greg Goss
2018-04-26 09:25:30 UTC
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Post by Dorothy J Heydt
*You* didn't have to push another human out of your innards. Any
woman giving birth for the first time at 30 or older is described
as "an elderly primipara." My mother was 34 when I was born, and
had a very difficult time. I was 32 when my son was born, and
had almost as much trouble. My daughter was 33, and wound up
having a C-section.
On the other hand, my daughter-in-law was 35, and had no trouble
worth mentioning. It's not only age; it's physical condition and
maternal history; her mother had had no trouble with her either
(I don't know how old she was).
I think that the "prima" is important there.

My mother misjudged menopause and I ended up with a sister when my
mother was 43. Supposedly my sister was born onto the gurney in the
elevator on the way to the birthing ward.
--
We are geeks. Resistance is voltage over current.
Lawrence Watt-Evans
2018-04-26 16:06:31 UTC
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Post by Greg Goss
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
*You* didn't have to push another human out of your innards. Any
woman giving birth for the first time at 30 or older is described
as "an elderly primipara." My mother was 34 when I was born, and
had a very difficult time. I was 32 when my son was born, and
had almost as much trouble. My daughter was 33, and wound up
having a C-section.
On the other hand, my daughter-in-law was 35, and had no trouble
worth mentioning. It's not only age; it's physical condition and
maternal history; her mother had had no trouble with her either
(I don't know how old she was).
I think that the "prima" is important there.
My mother misjudged menopause and I ended up with a sister when my
mother was 43. Supposedly my sister was born onto the gurney in the
elevator on the way to the birthing ward.
Menopause at 43? That would be REALLY early.
--
My webpage is at http://www.watt-evans.com
My latest novel is Stone Unturned: A Legend of Ethshar.
See http://www.ethshar.com/StoneUnturned.shtml
m***@sky.com
2018-04-25 17:29:48 UTC
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Post by Richard Hershberger
Post by Greg Goss
Post by a425couple
The "half-your-age-plus-seven" rule
In 1996, I was 39. My late wife was 27, pretty much exactly half plus
seven.
But our culture moves so fast that backgrounds can be opaque with a 12
year gap.
"What was your favourite band, growing up?"
"The Guess Who, out of Winnipeg."
"I thought that they were British."
She had never heard of probably the top Canadian band of the end of
the sixties and start of the seventies.
In the first round of cancer, the local hospital called their
outpatient clinic "Day Care". I would joke at the office when I had
to leave early to "pick up my wife from daycare." The twelve year gap
often seemed pretty wide. Except she was smarter, more mature, and a
better people person than I ever was.
My second wife was (still is) older than me, and it didn't work out.
My wife is approximately 9.5 years younger than me. This can produce weird results if the discussion is about what was going on when I was in college, as she was still in elementary school. But that is kind of cheating. The decade of your teens is when you both change rapidly, and are aware of and remember these changes. Stuff that happened in my thirties? It is no big deal that she was in her twenties.
Her ObGyn was very concerned that she would be 35 when she gave birth. The doctor also asked her about my age. 45? No problem whatsoever. I have been giving her shit over this ever since.
Richard R. Hershberger
It looks like there's no really bulletproof evidence - or nobody wants to claim there is - but there may be some genetic risks to the children of having a father over 40 - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paternal_age_effect

To pick the scariest quote: "greatest mutational health hazard to the human genome is fertile older males"
p***@hotmail.com
2018-04-26 05:34:07 UTC
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Post by m***@sky.com
Post by Richard Hershberger
Post by Greg Goss
Post by a425couple
The "half-your-age-plus-seven" rule
In 1996, I was 39. My late wife was 27, pretty much exactly half plus
seven.
But our culture moves so fast that backgrounds can be opaque with a 12
year gap.
"What was your favourite band, growing up?"
"The Guess Who, out of Winnipeg."
"I thought that they were British."
She had never heard of probably the top Canadian band of the end of
the sixties and start of the seventies.
In the first round of cancer, the local hospital called their
outpatient clinic "Day Care". I would joke at the office when I had
to leave early to "pick up my wife from daycare." The twelve year gap
often seemed pretty wide. Except she was smarter, more mature, and a
better people person than I ever was.
My second wife was (still is) older than me, and it didn't work out.
My wife is approximately 9.5 years younger than me. This can produce weird results if the discussion is about what was going on when I was in college, as she was still in elementary school. But that is kind of cheating. The decade of your teens is when you both change rapidly, and are aware of and remember these changes. Stuff that happened in my thirties? It is no big deal that she was in her twenties.
Her ObGyn was very concerned that she would be 35 when she gave birth. The doctor also asked her about my age. 45? No problem whatsoever. I have been giving her shit over this ever since.
Richard R. Hershberger
It looks like there's no really bulletproof evidence - or nobody wants to claim there is - but there may be some genetic risks to the children of having a father over 40 - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paternal_age_effect
To pick the scariest quote: "greatest mutational health hazard to the human genome is fertile older males"
There are also possible benefits; in his recent book _How We Age_,
Dr. Marc Agronin (a geriatric psychiatrist) speculates that the fact
that older men father children as often as they do is a contributing
factor to the human lifespan being as long as it is, and this
of course is an advantage shared by both sexes. We do live an
anomalously long time for a mammal of our size and activity level.

Peter Wezeman
anti-social Darwinist
Quadibloc
2018-04-26 10:33:42 UTC
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Post by p***@hotmail.com
There are also possible benefits; in his recent book _How We Age_,
Dr. Marc Agronin (a geriatric psychiatrist) speculates that the fact
that older men father children as often as they do is a contributing
factor to the human lifespan being as long as it is, and this
of course is an advantage shared by both sexes. We do live an
anomalously long time for a mammal of our size and activity level.
In humans, unlike many other mammals, though, mating is approximately pair-wise.

In many mammal species, the alpha male gets all the females - and he is often
mature, wily, and thus an experienced fighter. While being able to out-fight
challengers may put a ceiling on his age, that would seem to indicate this kind
of selection isn't unique to humans.

But then, that an 83-year-old man with a nubile wife wouldn't usually have to
worry about winning fights with other men to keep her would have allowed
selection to operate at even higher ages.

And human longevity contributes to the ability of the higher intelligence of
humans to manifest itself as an advantage...

John Savard
Robert Carnegie
2018-04-27 00:14:13 UTC
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Post by p***@hotmail.com
Post by m***@sky.com
Post by Richard Hershberger
Post by Greg Goss
Post by a425couple
The "half-your-age-plus-seven" rule
In 1996, I was 39. My late wife was 27, pretty much exactly half plus
seven.
But our culture moves so fast that backgrounds can be opaque with a 12
year gap.
"What was your favourite band, growing up?"
"The Guess Who, out of Winnipeg."
"I thought that they were British."
She had never heard of probably the top Canadian band of the end of
the sixties and start of the seventies.
In the first round of cancer, the local hospital called their
outpatient clinic "Day Care". I would joke at the office when I had
to leave early to "pick up my wife from daycare." The twelve year gap
often seemed pretty wide. Except she was smarter, more mature, and a
better people person than I ever was.
My second wife was (still is) older than me, and it didn't work out.
My wife is approximately 9.5 years younger than me. This can produce weird results if the discussion is about what was going on when I was in college, as she was still in elementary school. But that is kind of cheating. The decade of your teens is when you both change rapidly, and are aware of and remember these changes. Stuff that happened in my thirties? It is no big deal that she was in her twenties.
Her ObGyn was very concerned that she would be 35 when she gave birth. The doctor also asked her about my age. 45? No problem whatsoever. I have been giving her shit over this ever since.
Richard R. Hershberger
It looks like there's no really bulletproof evidence - or nobody wants to claim there is - but there may be some genetic risks to the children of having a father over 40 - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paternal_age_effect
To pick the scariest quote: "greatest mutational health hazard to the human genome is fertile older males"
There are also possible benefits; in his recent book _How We Age_,
Dr. Marc Agronin (a geriatric psychiatrist) speculates that the fact
that older men father children as often as they do is a contributing
factor to the human lifespan being as long as it is, and this
of course is an advantage shared by both sexes. We do live an
anomalously long time for a mammal of our size and activity level.
But wait... this theory is that an old father passes on
being old to his children? That sounds a bit epigenetic!
(And sexist of course!)
Quadibloc
2018-04-26 10:27:39 UTC
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Post by m***@sky.com
It looks like there's no really bulletproof evidence - or nobody wants to claim
there is - but there may be some genetic risks to the children of having a
father over 40 - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paternal_age_effect
To pick the scariest quote: "greatest mutational health hazard to the human
genome is fertile older males"
Well, of course there will be some effect due to paternal age. The cells in the
testes are exposed to radiation over time just like every other cell in the
body.

Because men constantly produce sperm, while a woman's eggs were all formed back
when she herself was in her mother's womb, it's maternal age that strongly
correlates with the risk of Down's Syndrome. That is, of course, trisomy of
chromosome 21, rather than a simple mutation.

But, of course, if a woman's ObGyn is concerned about her age when giving birth,
that has to do with *her* health and safety, and it's obvious that her age is
more important, given that she is the one doing the work.

John Savard
Carl Fink
2018-04-26 12:29:59 UTC
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Post by Quadibloc
Post by m***@sky.com
It looks like there's no really bulletproof evidence - or nobody wants to claim
there is - but there may be some genetic risks to the children of having a
father over 40 - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paternal_age_effect
To pick the scariest quote: "greatest mutational health hazard to the human
genome is fertile older males"
Well, of course there will be some effect due to paternal age. The cells in the
testes are exposed to radiation over time just like every other cell in the
body.
Because men constantly produce sperm, while a woman's eggs were all formed back
when she herself was in her mother's womb, it's maternal age that strongly
correlates with the risk of Down's Syndrome. That is, of course, trisomy of
chromosome 21, rather than a simple mutation.
But, of course, if a woman's ObGyn is concerned about her age when giving birth,
that has to do with *her* health and safety, and it's obvious that her age is
more important, given that she is the one doing the work.
I haven't read the Wikipedia article, but they might be referring to
chromosomal abnormalities. Things like trisomy 21 ("Mongolism") are more
common in children of older fathers, as well as older mothers.
--
Carl Fink ***@nitpicking.com

Read my blog at blog.nitpicking.com. Reviews! Observations!
Stupid mistakes you can correct!
Quadibloc
2018-04-26 19:11:44 UTC
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Post by Carl Fink
I haven't read the Wikipedia article, but they might be referring to
chromosomal abnormalities. Things like trisomy 21 ("Mongolism") are more
common in children of older fathers, as well as older mothers.
Yes, to some extent, but maternal age is much more significant for chromosomal
abnormalities - whereas for mutations, paternal age is just about equally
important, since mutations in the somatic ancestors of a sperm cell will do
equally well, so the sperm being fresh doesn't really help.

There's a much greater tendency for spontaneous chromosomal abnormalities to
prevent progress to new cell generations, and hence not to give rise to
defective sperm at a later time.

John Savard
David DeLaney
2018-04-29 08:54:00 UTC
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Post by Quadibloc
Post by m***@sky.com
It looks like there's no really bulletproof evidence - or nobody wants to claim
there is - but there may be some genetic risks to the children of having a
father over 40 - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paternal_age_effect
To pick the scariest quote: "greatest mutational health hazard to the human
genome is fertile older males"
Well, of course there will be some effect due to paternal age. The cells in the
testes are exposed to radiation over time just like every other cell in the
body.
Because men constantly produce sperm, while a woman's eggs were all formed back
when she herself was in her mother's womb,
ObSFReference: Piers Anthony, _Mute_.

Dave, it's not actually as bad as some of you are envisioning, but it's sorta
cringeworthy, yeah
--
\/David DeLaney posting thru EarthLink - "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
my gatekeeper archives are no longer accessible :( / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.
Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
2018-04-25 22:30:51 UTC
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Post by Richard Hershberger
My wife is approximately 9.5 years younger than me. This can
produce weird results if the discussion is about what was going
on when I was in college, as she was still in elementary school.
But that is kind of cheating. The decade of your teens is when
you both change rapidly, and are aware of and remember these
changes. Stuff that happened in my thirties? It is no big deal
that she was in her twenties.
Her ObGyn was very concerned that she would be 35 when she gave
birth. The doctor also asked her about my age. 45? No problem
whatsoever. I have been giving her shit over this ever since.
Here in beautiful, sunny, southern California, at nearly 60, no one
would raise an eyebrow if I were dating (or married) an 18 year old,
provided I was rich. (To be fair, though, it's just as acceptable if
the genders are reversed, but it's always required that the older
person be the rich one.)

For that matter, if I were rich enough to afford the right lawyer, I
could get a court's permission to marry a 14 year old, provided her
parents didn't object overly much. (This happens on a regular basis,
usually with a guy in his 30s who gets caught with his underage
girlfriend. Once they're married, a) it's no longer staturtory rape,
and b) she's not allowed to (and generally doesn't want to) testify
against her spouse about anything that happened before the ceremony.
Both parents and girls consider it a fair deal, as it's a very
effective way to bag a rich husband _with no prenup_.)
--
Terry Austin

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.
Quadibloc
2018-04-26 10:14:11 UTC
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Post by Richard Hershberger
Her ObGyn was very concerned that she would be 35 when she gave birth. The
doctor also asked her about my age. 45? No problem whatsoever. I have been
giving her shit over this ever since.
Why?

Well, of course, you're just teasing.

But to take this seriously for a moment: of course *your* age is no problem,
*she* is the one who is doing the work.

And aside from her ObGyn's concerns about labor, there's also the fact that men
produce sperm constantly after puberty - while a woman's eggs were all formed
*while she was developing in her mother's womb*. This is why the woman's age,
and not the man's, is relevant to the risk of having a child with Down's
Syndrome.

Nature is not fair to women.

John Savard
Dorothy J Heydt
2018-04-25 13:32:54 UTC
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Post by Greg Goss
Post by a425couple
The "half-your-age-plus-seven" rule
In 1996, I was 39. My late wife was 27, pretty much exactly half plus
seven.
But our culture moves so fast that backgrounds can be opaque with a 12
year gap.
"What was your favourite band, growing up?"
"The Guess Who, out of Winnipeg."
"I thought that they were British."
She had never heard of probably the top Canadian band of the end of
the sixties and start of the seventies.
In the first round of cancer, the local hospital called their
outpatient clinic "Day Care". I would joke at the office when I had
to leave early to "pick up my wife from daycare." The twelve year gap
often seemed pretty wide. Except she was smarter, more mature, and a
better people person than I ever was.
My second wife was (still is) older than me, and it didn't work out.
My mother was four years older than my father, and they lived
happily together till he died. I'm seven years older than Hal,
and we're still doing nicely, with our forty-seventh anniversary
coming up next month.

I think the "half your age plus seven" rule was designed to get
the maximum number of children out of the wife before menopause.
This is no longer the admirable goal it once was.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Johnny1A
2018-04-25 20:44:42 UTC
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Post by David Johnston
Well monogamy obviously. Both in the sense of having a "free love"
religion in Stranger In A Strange Land and the group marriages in works
such as the Moon Is A Harsh Mistress and Friday.
Public nudity as far back as The Puppet Master.
The age difference between Daniel and Ricky in the Door into Summer.
Brother sister incest and mother son in Time Enough For Love.
Sex with an audience...did that happen in Glory Road? With the audience
being her mother? Been a long time since I read it.
Then there was that the thing with a hermaphrodite becoming their own
father and mother in --All You Zombies--. It's hard to even define what
taboos that one violates. Gender boundaries. Mother/Father/Self incest.
I Will Fear No Evil: Mpreg. The whole dirty old man becomes hot young
woman and goes wild with it thing.
Yeah, but that's kind of a mixed cluster.

Some of it was RAH knowingly crossing various lines, some of it just speculations about what might happen in other times, or if certain trends continued, some of it wouldn't even have been considered shocking much further in the past (or probably far in the future).

Sometimes it's hard to tell when RAH is just speculating about other arrangements and when he's trying to 'shock the rubes'. He did both.
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