Discussion:
How does one pronounce "Zelazny"?
(too old to reply)
m***@gmail.com
2017-02-23 17:21:01 UTC
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One of my friends used to claim that Roger Zelazny's surname was
pronounced Zel-ayny, not Zel-azny. I always had my doubts about this,
but he was very insistant. I'm sure someone on this group can settle
the matter one way or another.
--
David Cowie
There is no _spam in my address.
"You had to do WHAT with your seat?"
I've heard other SF writers of his generation pronounce it Ze-layny.
Quadibloc
2017-02-23 17:59:10 UTC
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Whooo. You've been hanging around with some _serious_ pedants, Kevin.
However, since I was writing English and speaking about English
orthography, I maintain it was indeed the "diearesis" I was
describing.
I thought it was spelled diaresis. But that gives a spell check too on my system.

John Savard
Quadibloc
2017-02-23 18:02:13 UTC
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In English, two dots over a vowel are a dieresis and indicate that two
vowels which might form a dipthong are to be pronounced separately.
In English, there are no accent marks. What you've described exists only
in French and is called the tréma.
English seems to incorporate all other languages by reference. Especially Latin,
so the ae and oe ligatures are used in English writing...

John Savard
David DeLaney
2017-02-26 06:28:21 UTC
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Post by Quadibloc
In English, two dots over a vowel are a dieresis and indicate that two
vowels which might form a dipthong are to be pronounced separately.
In English, there are no accent marks. What you've described exists only
in French and is called the tréma.
English seems to incorporate all other languages by reference. Especially
Latin, so the ae and oe ligatures are used in English writing...
And sometimes, per our James, by direct incorporation.

Dave, mmmm, crunchy litotes burritos
--
\/David DeLaney posting thru EarthLink - "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
gatekeeper.vic.com/~dbd - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.
Quadibloc
2017-02-23 18:07:26 UTC
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One of my friends used to claim that Roger Zelazny's surname was
pronounced Zel-ayny, not Zel-azny. I always had my doubts about this,
but he was very insistant. I'm sure someone on this group can settle
the matter one way or another.
Weirdly, it's pronounced "Worcestershire."
What, not "Cholmondeley"?
The Starmaker
2017-02-23 23:12:03 UTC
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Post by Quadibloc
One of my friends used to claim that Roger Zelazny's surname was
pronounced Zel-ayny, not Zel-azny. I always had my doubts about this,
but he was very insistant. I'm sure someone on this group can settle
the matter one way or another.
Weirdly, it's pronounced "Worcestershire."
What, not "Cholmondeley"?
it's pronounced Ze- Laa - zee-nee
Lawrence Watt-Evans
2017-02-23 18:55:55 UTC
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Post by m***@gmail.com
One of my friends used to claim that Roger Zelazny's surname was
pronounced Zel-ayny, not Zel-azny. I always had my doubts about this,
but he was very insistant. I'm sure someone on this group can settle
the matter one way or another.
"You had to do WHAT with your seat?"
I've heard other SF writers of his generation pronounce it Ze-layny.
They're wrong. I heard him and his family members pronounce it
"Zeh-LAZ-nee."
--
My webpage is at http://www.watt-evans.com
Lawrence Watt-Evans
2017-02-23 19:13:35 UTC
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On Thu, 23 Feb 2017 13:55:55 -0500, Lawrence Watt-Evans
Post by Lawrence Watt-Evans
Post by m***@gmail.com
One of my friends used to claim that Roger Zelazny's surname was
pronounced Zel-ayny, not Zel-azny. I always had my doubts about this,
but he was very insistant. I'm sure someone on this group can settle
the matter one way or another.
I've heard other SF writers of his generation pronounce it Ze-layny.
They're wrong. I heard him and his family members pronounce it
"Zeh-LAZ-nee."
It is, incidentally, Polish. Polish pronunciation can be weird, but
does not have silent letters.

Z's are sometimes dropped by English speakers (I went to school with a
kid named Brzeski who pronounced it "Bresky"), but that isn't
necessary with Zelazny, and Roger's family pronounced it as I said
above.

You could ask Trent Zelazny:
http://trentzelazny.wixsite.com/authorpage/contact
--
My webpage is at http://www.watt-evans.com
Don Bruder
2017-02-24 02:55:02 UTC
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In article
Post by Lawrence Watt-Evans
On Thu, 23 Feb 2017 13:55:55 -0500, Lawrence Watt-Evans
Post by Lawrence Watt-Evans
Post by m***@gmail.com
One of my friends used to claim that Roger Zelazny's surname was
pronounced Zel-ayny, not Zel-azny. I always had my doubts about this,
but he was very insistant. I'm sure someone on this group can settle
the matter one way or another.
I've heard other SF writers of his generation pronounce it Ze-layny.
They're wrong. I heard him and his family members pronounce it
"Zeh-LAZ-nee."
It is, incidentally, Polish. Polish pronunciation can be weird, but
does not have silent letters.
Then what of the surname of a (very proudly polish) childhood friend -
Czarneki, whose bearers, including grandma (whose accent was so thick it
could make peanut butter look runny) said it "ZAR-neh-kee"?
Post by Lawrence Watt-Evans
Z's are sometimes dropped by English speakers (I went to school with a
kid named Brzeski who pronounced it "Bresky"), but that isn't
necessary with Zelazny, and Roger's family pronounced it as I said
above.
http://trentzelazny.wixsite.com/authorpage/contact
--
If the door is baroque don't be Haydn. Come around Bach and jiggle the Handel.
Robert Carnegie
2017-02-24 04:26:28 UTC
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Post by Don Bruder
In article
Post by Lawrence Watt-Evans
On Thu, 23 Feb 2017 13:55:55 -0500, Lawrence Watt-Evans
Post by Lawrence Watt-Evans
Post by m***@gmail.com
One of my friends used to claim that Roger Zelazny's surname was
pronounced Zel-ayny, not Zel-azny. I always had my doubts about this,
but he was very insistant. I'm sure someone on this group can settle
the matter one way or another.
I've heard other SF writers of his generation pronounce it Ze-layny.
They're wrong. I heard him and his family members pronounce it
"Zeh-LAZ-nee."
It is, incidentally, Polish. Polish pronunciation can be weird, but
does not have silent letters.
Then what of the surname of a (very proudly polish) childhood friend -
Czarneki, whose bearers, including grandma (whose accent was so thick it
could make peanut butter look runny) said it "ZAR-neh-kee"?
Perhaps there are letters that non-Poles don't
hear. I wonder how "Czarneki" comes out - or sounds
in the first place - if you're Chinese.

Or perhaps "cz" is one letter?

Also wasn't the Czar Russian (not necessarily
welcome in Poland)... perhaps I shouldn't
have had to look up whether Alexander Pope was
Roman Catholic (yes, and surely people noticed - )
Post by Don Bruder
Post by Lawrence Watt-Evans
Z's are sometimes dropped by English speakers (I went to school with a
kid named Brzeski who pronounced it "Bresky"), but that isn't
necessary with Zelazny, and Roger's family pronounced it as I said
above.
http://trentzelazny.wixsite.com/authorpage/contact
Try his voice mail. "This is Treent Seal-a-sunny."
"Thank you." Click. :-)
Lawrence Watt-Evans
2017-02-24 08:14:36 UTC
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On Thu, 23 Feb 2017 20:26:28 -0800 (PST), Robert Carnegie
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by Don Bruder
In article
Post by Lawrence Watt-Evans
On Thu, 23 Feb 2017 13:55:55 -0500, Lawrence Watt-Evans
Post by Lawrence Watt-Evans
Post by m***@gmail.com
One of my friends used to claim that Roger Zelazny's surname was
pronounced Zel-ayny, not Zel-azny. I always had my doubts about this,
but he was very insistant. I'm sure someone on this group can settle
the matter one way or another.
I've heard other SF writers of his generation pronounce it Ze-layny.
They're wrong. I heard him and his family members pronounce it
"Zeh-LAZ-nee."
It is, incidentally, Polish. Polish pronunciation can be weird, but
does not have silent letters.
Then what of the surname of a (very proudly polish) childhood friend -
Czarneki, whose bearers, including grandma (whose accent was so thick it
could make peanut butter look runny) said it "ZAR-neh-kee"?
Perhaps there are letters that non-Poles don't
hear. I wonder how "Czarneki" comes out - or sounds
in the first place - if you're Chinese.
Or perhaps "cz" is one letter?
CZ is more or less equivalent to the English CH. It's a single sound.
I wouldn't have transcribed it as Z, though.
--
My webpage is at http://www.watt-evans.com
Robert Carnegie
2017-02-24 08:28:50 UTC
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Post by Lawrence Watt-Evans
On Thu, 23 Feb 2017 20:26:28 -0800 (PST), Robert Carnegie
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by Don Bruder
In article
Post by Lawrence Watt-Evans
On Thu, 23 Feb 2017 13:55:55 -0500, Lawrence Watt-Evans
Post by Lawrence Watt-Evans
Post by m***@gmail.com
One of my friends used to claim that Roger Zelazny's surname was
pronounced Zel-ayny, not Zel-azny. I always had my doubts about this,
but he was very insistant. I'm sure someone on this group can settle
the matter one way or another.
I've heard other SF writers of his generation pronounce it Ze-layny.
They're wrong. I heard him and his family members pronounce it
"Zeh-LAZ-nee."
It is, incidentally, Polish. Polish pronunciation can be weird, but
does not have silent letters.
Then what of the surname of a (very proudly polish) childhood friend -
Czarneki, whose bearers, including grandma (whose accent was so thick it
could make peanut butter look runny) said it "ZAR-neh-kee"?
Perhaps there are letters that non-Poles don't
hear. I wonder how "Czarneki" comes out - or sounds
in the first place - if you're Chinese.
Or perhaps "cz" is one letter?
CZ is more or less equivalent to the English CH. It's a single sound.
I wouldn't have transcribed it as Z, though.
Anecdotally, a lot of Americans' names are
what an immigration officer decided to make
of their country-of-origin name. If you
get past that, the children are up against
the education system.

And my sports teacher called me "Carnage" but
I think that wss just on his mind at the time.
Don Bruder
2017-02-24 10:05:14 UTC
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In article
Post by Lawrence Watt-Evans
On Thu, 23 Feb 2017 20:26:28 -0800 (PST), Robert Carnegie
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by Don Bruder
In article
Post by Lawrence Watt-Evans
On Thu, 23 Feb 2017 13:55:55 -0500, Lawrence Watt-Evans
Post by Lawrence Watt-Evans
Post by m***@gmail.com
One of my friends used to claim that Roger Zelazny's surname was
pronounced Zel-ayny, not Zel-azny. I always had my doubts about this,
but he was very insistant. I'm sure someone on this group can settle
the matter one way or another.
I've heard other SF writers of his generation pronounce it Ze-layny.
They're wrong. I heard him and his family members pronounce it
"Zeh-LAZ-nee."
It is, incidentally, Polish. Polish pronunciation can be weird, but
does not have silent letters.
Then what of the surname of a (very proudly polish) childhood friend -
Czarneki, whose bearers, including grandma (whose accent was so thick it
could make peanut butter look runny) said it "ZAR-neh-kee"?
Perhaps there are letters that non-Poles don't
hear. I wonder how "Czarneki" comes out - or sounds
in the first place - if you're Chinese.
Or perhaps "cz" is one letter?
CZ is more or less equivalent to the English CH. It's a single sound.
I wouldn't have transcribed it as Z, though.
<Shrug> Sorry, can't help it. I transcribed it as that 'cause that's how
they said it. With a Z that would feel right at home in Zebra or Zap or
even buZZ. No (noticable to this northern-midwest-raised english
speaker, anyway) sign of the C when spoken, but spelled with it, exactly
as I did, when written. I saw it written on the chalkboard all through
grade school often enough, and heard it direct from them, after all :)

If I'd seen it before I heard it, I'd have expected to hear something
that I'd probably transcribe as char-NEHK-ee - Which I'm betting is
pretty close to what you have in mind now. Or would you put the stress
on the first syllable?
--
If the door is baroque don't be Haydn. Come around Bach and jiggle the Handel.
Joe Pfeiffer
2017-02-25 21:57:03 UTC
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Post by Lawrence Watt-Evans
CZ is more or less equivalent to the English CH. It's a single sound.
I wouldn't have transcribed it as Z, though.
The two people I've known with names starting Cz (Czarnecki and
Czerniac) have both pronounced their names starting with a "Z" sound
as in zap or zowie. But neither of them are immigrants, so that may
well affect the pronunciation.

On the other hand, I think everyone I know pronounces Czech as "check".
Lawrence Watt-Evans
2017-02-26 07:19:02 UTC
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On Sat, 25 Feb 2017 14:57:03 -0700, Joe Pfeiffer
Post by Joe Pfeiffer
Post by Lawrence Watt-Evans
CZ is more or less equivalent to the English CH. It's a single sound.
I wouldn't have transcribed it as Z, though.
The two people I've known with names starting Cz (Czarnecki and
Czerniac) have both pronounced their names starting with a "Z" sound
as in zap or zowie. But neither of them are immigrants, so that may
well affect the pronunciation.
On the other hand, I think everyone I know pronounces Czech as "check".
You know, I may have confused the Czech and Polish rules. Oops.
--
My webpage is at http://www.watt-evans.com
Robert Carnegie
2017-02-26 15:10:02 UTC
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Post by Lawrence Watt-Evans
On Sat, 25 Feb 2017 14:57:03 -0700, Joe Pfeiffer
Post by Joe Pfeiffer
Post by Lawrence Watt-Evans
CZ is more or less equivalent to the English CH. It's a single sound.
I wouldn't have transcribed it as Z, though.
The two people I've known with names starting Cz (Czarnecki and
Czerniac) have both pronounced their names starting with a "Z" sound
as in zap or zowie. But neither of them are immigrants, so that may
well affect the pronunciation.
On the other hand, I think everyone I know pronounces Czech as "check".
You know, I may have confused the Czech and Polish rules. Oops.
I assumed we were looking for "cz" as in "Tsar".
Named after Julius Czar, a character in Shakespeare.

I may be confused as well.
David Goldfarb
2017-02-26 18:08:22 UTC
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Post by Lawrence Watt-Evans
On Sat, 25 Feb 2017 14:57:03 -0700, Joe Pfeiffer
Post by Joe Pfeiffer
Post by Lawrence Watt-Evans
CZ is more or less equivalent to the English CH. It's a single sound.
I wouldn't have transcribed it as Z, though.
The two people I've known with names starting Cz (Czarnecki and
Czerniac) have both pronounced their names starting with a "Z" sound
as in zap or zowie. But neither of them are immigrants, so that may
well affect the pronunciation.
On the other hand, I think everyone I know pronounces Czech as "check".
You know, I may have confused the Czech and Polish rules. Oops.
Wikipedia agrees with you, however. Czarnecki and Czerniac may have
changed the pronunciation of their names to be more in accordance
with local rules of orthography, "ZAR-neck-y" instead of "char-NETZ-ky".

There was a US chess grandmaster named Fedorowicz who played so
many European tournaments that he gave up and started calling
himself "fed-or-OV-ich".
--
David Goldfarb |"Sunset over Houma. The rains have stopped.
***@gmail.com | Clouds like plugs of bloodied cotton wool dab
***@ocf.berkeley.edu | ineffectually at the slashed wrists of the sky."
| -- Alan Moore
Don Bruder
2017-02-26 23:15:28 UTC
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Post by Don Bruder
In article
Post by Lawrence Watt-Evans
On Sat, 25 Feb 2017 14:57:03 -0700, Joe Pfeiffer
Post by Joe Pfeiffer
Post by Lawrence Watt-Evans
CZ is more or less equivalent to the English CH. It's a single sound.
I wouldn't have transcribed it as Z, though.
The two people I've known with names starting Cz (Czarnecki and
Czerniac) have both pronounced their names starting with a "Z" sound
as in zap or zowie. But neither of them are immigrants, so that may
well affect the pronunciation.
On the other hand, I think everyone I know pronounces Czech as "check".
You know, I may have confused the Czech and Polish rules. Oops.
Wikipedia agrees with you, however. Czarnecki and Czerniac may have
changed the pronunciation of their names to be more in accordance
with local rules of orthography, "ZAR-neck-y" instead of "char-NETZ-ky".
There was a US chess grandmaster named Fedorowicz who played so
many European tournaments that he gave up and started calling
himself "fed-or-OV-ich".
"Mutilation" of names that way seems to be pretty common - As a personal
ferinstance, when my 4xgreat grandfather got off the boat at Ellis
Island, he did so bearing his franco-swiss name "Genoud". Which, so far
as anybody can figure out, was almost immediately mutated by a
semi-literate immigration clerk into the form my maternal grandmother
bore: "Shinew" - pronounced exactly as you're likely to guess based on
the spelling. A pronunciation nearly identical to that used by an actual
frenchman named Genoud who came to one of our family reunions.

A grade-school principal I had wore the monicker "Borowicz" - which he
pronounced "Bruhv-idge" - two syllables, rhyming with "bridge". Quite a
few who encountered it first in written form referred to him as "Mr.
Borowits" until they actually heard him say it.
--
If the door is baroque don't be Haydn. Come around Bach and jiggle the Handel.
Greg Goss
2017-02-27 08:57:21 UTC
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Post by Don Bruder
"Mutilation" of names that way seems to be pretty common - As a personal
ferinstance, when my 4xgreat grandfather got off the boat at Ellis
Island, he did so bearing his franco-swiss name "Genoud". Which, so far
as anybody can figure out, was almost immediately mutated by a
semi-literate immigration clerk into the form my maternal grandmother
bore: "Shinew" - pronounced exactly as you're likely to guess based on
the spelling. A pronunciation nearly identical to that used by an actual
frenchman named Genoud who came to one of our family reunions.
A close friend of mine in the eighties had the maiden name "Desireau".
While she was highly desirable, I couldn't make that name work under
any of the French word construction rules I knew.

A couple of decades later, her sister dug through geneological records
and concluded that their umpteenth grandfather, an illiterate French
prospector in the English-speaking Kootenays, had been born a "des
Sureaux" ("from the elderberry patch")
--
We are geeks. Resistance is voltage over current.
Quadibloc
2017-02-27 19:22:48 UTC
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Post by Greg Goss
A couple of decades later, her sister dug through geneological records
and concluded that their umpteenth grandfather, an illiterate French
prospector in the English-speaking Kootenays, had been born a "des
Sureaux" ("from the elderberry patch")
This reminds me of two things.

One is a famous mock-French insult from a well-known comedy movie.

The other is the British actress Jenny Agutter. When I first heard of her in an
Australian movie, I thought that perhaps she had a distant Aboriginal ancestor
who had given her that unusual name. But when I learned she was English and not
Australian, it dawned on me that likely the family name was originally something
like Aguiterre, and the British simply had all the time since the Norman
Conquest to mangle it.

John Savard
Kevrob
2017-02-27 21:46:09 UTC
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Post by Quadibloc
Post by Greg Goss
A couple of decades later, her sister dug through geneological records
and concluded that their umpteenth grandfather, an illiterate French
prospector in the English-speaking Kootenays, had been born a "des
Sureaux" ("from the elderberry patch")
This reminds me of two things.
One is a famous mock-French insult from a well-known comedy movie.
The other is the British actress Jenny Agutter. When I first heard of her in an
Australian movie,
WALKABOUT, in 1971?
Post by Quadibloc
I thought that perhaps she had a distant Aboriginal ancestor
who had given her that unusual name. But when I learned she was English and not
Australian, it dawned on me that likely the family name was originally something
like Aguiterre, and the British simply had all the time since the Norman
Conquest to mangle it.
John Savard
Jenny Agutter! EQUUS! LOGAN'S RUN! AN AMERICAN WEREWOLF IN LONDON!

A very talented, extremely attractive sfnal film ghoddess.

Kevin R
Gary R. Schmidt
2017-03-01 03:12:28 UTC
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Post by Kevrob
Post by Quadibloc
Post by Greg Goss
A couple of decades later, her sister dug through geneological records
and concluded that their umpteenth grandfather, an illiterate French
prospector in the English-speaking Kootenays, had been born a "des
Sureaux" ("from the elderberry patch")
This reminds me of two things.
One is a famous mock-French insult from a well-known comedy movie.
The other is the British actress Jenny Agutter. When I first heard of her in an
Australian movie,
WALKABOUT, in 1971?
Post by Quadibloc
I thought that perhaps she had a distant Aboriginal ancestor
who had given her that unusual name. But when I learned she was English and not
Australian, it dawned on me that likely the family name was originally something
like Aguiterre, and the British simply had all the time since the Norman
Conquest to mangle it.
John Savard
Jenny Agutter! EQUUS! LOGAN'S RUN! AN AMERICAN WEREWOLF IN LONDON!
A very talented, extremely attractive sfnal film ghoddess.
She plays a nun in the British "Call the Midwife" series, very
interesting snapshot of UK life back then.

Cheers,
Gary B-)
--
When men talk to their friends, they insult each other.
They don't really mean it.
When women talk to their friends, they compliment each other.
They don't mean it either.
Robert Carnegie
2017-02-27 20:56:31 UTC
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Post by Greg Goss
Post by Don Bruder
"Mutilation" of names that way seems to be pretty common - As a personal
ferinstance, when my 4xgreat grandfather got off the boat at Ellis
Island, he did so bearing his franco-swiss name "Genoud". Which, so far
as anybody can figure out, was almost immediately mutated by a
semi-literate immigration clerk into the form my maternal grandmother
bore: "Shinew" - pronounced exactly as you're likely to guess based on
the spelling. A pronunciation nearly identical to that used by an actual
frenchman named Genoud who came to one of our family reunions.
A close friend of mine in the eighties had the maiden name "Desireau".
While she was highly desirable, I couldn't make that name work under
any of the French word construction rules I knew.
A couple of decades later, her sister dug through geneological records
and concluded that their umpteenth grandfather, an illiterate French
prospector in the English-speaking Kootenays, had been born a "des
Sureaux" ("from the elderberry patch")
That sounds like a euphemism for bar sinister
but Google indicates it's at least one French
place name, and that suggests otherwise -
although a town of some 5,000 inhabitants
in that country is cheerfully called Bitche,
so who knows. (I assume they're cheerful -
otherwise they'd probably leave.)

"Bar sinister" itself seems to have been made up -
Wikipedia says - by novelist Sir Walter Scott.

I thought of elder as a tree, botanically.
Apparently sometimes it isn't. So I learned
something, but probably I forget a lot these
days as well.
Greg Goss
2017-02-28 04:27:18 UTC
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Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by Greg Goss
A couple of decades later, her sister dug through geneological records
and concluded that their umpteenth grandfather, an illiterate French
prospector in the English-speaking Kootenays, had been born a "des
Sureaux" ("from the elderberry patch")
That sounds like a euphemism for bar sinister
but Google indicates it's at least one French
place name, and that suggests otherwise -
although a town of some 5,000 inhabitants
in that country is cheerfully called Bitche,
so who knows. (I assume they're cheerful -
otherwise they'd probably leave.)
"Bar sinister" itself seems to have been made up -
Wikipedia says - by novelist Sir Walter Scott.
I thought of elder as a tree, botanically.
Apparently sometimes it isn't. So I learned
something, but probably I forget a lot these
days as well.
Elderberries have a long history of medicinal value. Some more
distant ancestor may have been an herbalist ("witch").
http://www.herbwisdom.com/herb-elderberry.html
--
We are geeks. Resistance is voltage over current.
Robert Carnegie
2017-02-28 07:27:31 UTC
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Post by Greg Goss
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by Greg Goss
A couple of decades later, her sister dug through geneological records
and concluded that their umpteenth grandfather, an illiterate French
prospector in the English-speaking Kootenays, had been born a "des
Sureaux" ("from the elderberry patch")
That sounds like a euphemism for bar sinister
but Google indicates it's at least one French
place name, and that suggests otherwise -
although a town of some 5,000 inhabitants
in that country is cheerfully called Bitche,
so who knows. (I assume they're cheerful -
otherwise they'd probably leave.)
"Bar sinister" itself seems to have been made up -
Wikipedia says - by novelist Sir Walter Scott.
I thought of elder as a tree, botanically.
Apparently sometimes it isn't. So I learned
something, but probably I forget a lot these
days as well.
Elderberries have a long history of medicinal value. Some more
distant ancestor may have been an herbalist ("witch").
http://www.herbwisdom.com/herb-elderberry.html
A hedge witch, in fact :-)
Kevrob
2017-03-02 00:11:15 UTC
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Post by Greg Goss
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by Greg Goss
A couple of decades later, her sister dug through geneological records
and concluded that their umpteenth grandfather, an illiterate French
prospector in the English-speaking Kootenays, had been born a "des
Sureaux" ("from the elderberry patch")
That sounds like a euphemism for bar sinister
but Google indicates it's at least one French
place name, and that suggests otherwise -
although a town of some 5,000 inhabitants
in that country is cheerfully called Bitche,
so who knows. (I assume they're cheerful -
otherwise they'd probably leave.)
"Bar sinister" itself seems to have been made up -
Wikipedia says - by novelist Sir Walter Scott.
I thought of elder as a tree, botanically.
Apparently sometimes it isn't. So I learned
something, but probably I forget a lot these
days as well.
Elderberries have a long history of medicinal value. Some more
distant ancestor may have been an herbalist ("witch").
http://www.herbwisdom.com/herb-elderberry.html
In a recent response to an MT VOID post, I mentioned
my involvement in a high school production of "Arsenic and
Old Lace." The Brewster sisters disguised the poison in elderberry
wine. Presumably the home made concoction was very sweet.
Does arsenic impart a flavor to wine that's noticeable?
I know it can occur in wine naturally, absorbed by the grapes
from soil. Lead acetate has been used to sweeten wine, going
back to the Romans.

Kevin R

Cryptoengineer
2017-02-26 16:32:54 UTC
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Raw Message
Post by Joe Pfeiffer
Post by Lawrence Watt-Evans
CZ is more or less equivalent to the English CH. It's a single sound.
I wouldn't have transcribed it as Z, though.
The two people I've known with names starting Cz (Czarnecki and
Czerniac) have both pronounced their names starting with a "Z" sound
as in zap or zowie. But neither of them are immigrants, so that may
well affect the pronunciation.
On the other hand, I think everyone I know pronounces Czech as "check".
Except that in England, its pronounced 'Cheque' :-)

pt
Peter Trei
2017-02-23 21:32:36 UTC
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Raw Message
Post by Lawrence Watt-Evans
Post by m***@gmail.com
One of my friends used to claim that Roger Zelazny's surname was
pronounced Zel-ayny, not Zel-azny. I always had my doubts about this,
but he was very insistant. I'm sure someone on this group can settle
the matter one way or another.
"You had to do WHAT with your seat?"
I've heard other SF writers of his generation pronounce it Ze-layny.
They're wrong. I heard him and his family members pronounce it
"Zeh-LAZ-nee."
I too have heard exactly this, from the man himself.

pt
Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)
2017-02-24 00:16:12 UTC
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Raw Message
Post by Lawrence Watt-Evans
Post by m***@gmail.com
One of my friends used to claim that Roger Zelazny's surname was
pronounced Zel-ayny, not Zel-azny. I always had my doubts about this,
but he was very insistant. I'm sure someone on this group can settle
the matter one way or another.
"You had to do WHAT with your seat?"
I've heard other SF writers of his generation pronounce it Ze-layny.
They're wrong. I heard him and his family members pronounce it
"Zeh-LAZ-nee."
At least I got that right, after misreading it for years as "Zelzany".
--
Sea Wasp
/^\
;;;
Website: http://www.grandcentralarena.com Blog:
http://seawasp.livejournal.com
Carl Fink
2017-02-24 14:01:45 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Lawrence Watt-Evans
Post by m***@gmail.com
One of my friends used to claim that Roger Zelazny's surname was
pronounced Zel-ayny, not Zel-azny. I always had my doubts about this,
but he was very insistant. I'm sure someone on this group can settle
the matter one way or another.
"You had to do WHAT with your seat?"
I've heard other SF writers of his generation pronounce it Ze-layny.
They're wrong. I heard him and his family members pronounce it
"Zeh-LAZ-nee."
That's how he said it the one time I spoke with him.
--
Carl Fink ***@nitpicking.com

Read my blog at blog.nitpicking.com. Reviews! Observations!
Stupid mistakes you can correct!
Joe Pfeiffer
2017-02-23 18:56:49 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by m***@gmail.com
One of my friends used to claim that Roger Zelazny's surname was
pronounced Zel-ayny, not Zel-azny. I always had my doubts about this,
but he was very insistant. I'm sure someone on this group can settle
the matter one way or another.
--
David Cowie
There is no _spam in my address.
"You had to do WHAT with your seat?"
I've heard other SF writers of his generation pronounce it Ze-layny.
After 16 years, he finally gets an answer!
Robert Carnegie
2017-02-23 21:42:52 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Post by Joe Pfeiffer
Post by m***@gmail.com
One of my friends used to claim that Roger Zelazny's surname was
pronounced Zel-ayny, not Zel-azny. I always had my doubts about this,
but he was very insistant. I'm sure someone on this group can settle
the matter one way or another.
--
David Cowie
There is no _spam in my address.
"You had to do WHAT with your seat?"
I've heard other SF writers of his generation pronounce it Ze-layny.
After 16 years, he finally gets an answer!
Or "And Then There Were Some".
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