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Another MilSF list
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m***@sky.com
2017-04-29 04:38:00 UTC
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Here is a MilSF list made up, not as a joke and not to push a point, but just because I think there should be a straightforward list, if only to act as a sort of base upon which more sophisticated treatments must draw - after all, if every treatment of the subject is an clever surprise, the element of clever surprise must necessarily be diminished. Feel free to add recommendations for books and series that I have missed.

David Drake Leary/Mundy Series (e.g. "With the Lightnings")
Shows people with varying strengths and weakness making the best of difficult circumstances, and bonding in a group for mutual support, which is still primarily an effective unit, and not just a support group.

David Drake "Redliners"
Study of people affected by combat stress, which is shown here as inducing changes which are adaptive in the context of life or death combat, but not necessarily in other circumstances.

Lois McMaster Bujold Vorkosiverse (e.g. "The Warrior's Apprentice")
Well presented universe with both light and dark sides. Most stories center around Miles Vorkosigan, admiral, tactician, and Ulyssean trickster, driven almost to insanity by his own limitations and circumstances.

Gordon R Dickson Dorsai Series (e.g. "Tactics of Mistake")
Interesting to me for the invention of the Dorsai, an elite military force whose skills include both mind over body powers and tactical theories somewhat reminiscent of Liddel Hart, if only for the prominence given to skilled tactics over superiority of force.

H. Paul Honsinger "Man of War" Series (e.g. "To Honor You Call Us")
Despite the uniformly clumsy titles, very good reading, and one of the few spacecraft-heavy series that get much mileage out of the workings and daily life of a spacecraft, borrowing both from the traditional Navy and from the organisation of ground control during the Apollo moon landings. Much cleverness associated with stealth in space (technically plausible or not).

Jerry Pournelle Falkenberg's Legion Series (includes a book of that name)
Action adventure that also attempts to show how the classic guerilla tactics typically used by Communist insurgencies could be countered. Part of an ambitious future history now somewhat out of joint due to the unexpected fall of the Soviet Union.

Elizabeth Moon Vatta's War Series (e.g. "Trading In Danger")
Prominent characters are not necessarily serving military, but this looks a lot like MilSF to me. A few otherwise normal characters find that they take great pleasure in killing as the ultimate expression of victory, which I find disturbing - perhaps more so because Moon makes it plausible.

R.M.Melluch Romans in Spaaaaace! Series (e.g. "The Myriad", and more usually and sensibly called the Tour of the Merrimack Series)
Notable for sheer chutzpah for reviving the Roman Empire in space, and for liberal use of time travel resets in printed fiction. Interesting portrayal of front line Marines as clearly picked for athleticism and bravery rather than intelligence or book learning, while still showing them as admirable for their strengths.

David Drake and Eric Flint Belisarius Series (e.g. "An Oblique Approach")
Alternate history MilSF which uses the historical Belisarius as a character. Apparently plotted as a demonstration of Liddel Hart's theories, despite Drake's reservations about their practicality (and Drake is not alone here).

Robert A. Heinlein "Starship Troopers"
Early and influential MilSF. Portrays limited strikes by heavily armoured soldiers and gives a sensible argument why such actions were not rendered obsolete by the invention of nuclear weapons. Set in a society where the military, and ex-military, have and maintain a commanding influence on society. I note that neither the fictional military nor the author claim that this influence is morally justified, although both appear to criticise some aspects of society as it was during the author's lifetime. I also note that this was written when there were fewer historical examples of relative misrule by military juntas.

Tom Kratman "Amazon Legion" (Part of a series whose other books I have not read)
I would guess that if asked to name a profession where people spent most of their time training, most people would not respond "peacetime military", but that appears to be a valid answer. Here Kratman describes the training of a unit made up of women. It is his reaction to the inclusion of women in the front line military, and interesting for that, but also for the rigours of modern military training.

Walter Jon Williams Dread Empire's Fall Series (e.g. "The Praxis")
Sophisticated and imaginative MilSF by a writer with a strong reputation made outside MilSF.

David Drake Hammer's Slammers Series (collected into books of that name)
Short stories featuring a future tank regiment heavily influenced by the author's service in Vietnam and greatly influential in their own right. Darker picture of war than most other MilSF.

Christopher G. Nuttall Ark Royal Series (starts with book of that name)
"Ark Royal" starts the series with a story of redemption for a washed up captain left in charge of museum piece of a ship. Set in a world where a spacefaring British Empire comes complete with an aristocracy who have real power (which I personally find implausible for a technological society). Entertaining, and Nuttall is amazingly prolific, so it's worth trying him just because of the large (and growing) volume of work available if you find you like him.

David Weber Honorverse Series (e.g. "On Basilisk Station")
Very popular and very thoroughly imagined universe. I find it readable but not compelling.
Ted Nolan <tednolan>
2017-04-29 04:52:12 UTC
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Post by m***@sky.com
Here is a MilSF list made up, not as a joke and not to push a point, but
R.M.Melluch Romans in Spaaaaace! Series (e.g. "The Myriad", and more
usually and sensibly called the Tour of the Merrimack Series)
Notable for sheer chutzpah for reviving the Roman Empire in space, and
for liberal use of time travel resets in printed fiction. Interesting
portrayal of front line Marines as clearly picked for athleticism and
bravery rather than intelligence or book learning, while still showing
them as admirable for their strengths.
It's not only Romans in Spaace, but it's Star Trek. The Roman patternists
are clear Vulcan analogs so you have the classic trio with Kirk, Spock
& McCoy all accounted for. Fun for the first several books though it
bugged me that the time twist was never undone, or even realized by the
characters, then it kind of went downhill with a silly ending to the
Roman storyline, and an unsatisfactory marriage out of nowhere.
Post by m***@sky.com
Christopher G. Nuttall Ark Royal Series (starts with book of that name)
"Ark Royal" starts the series with a story of redemption for a washed up
captain left in charge of museum piece of a ship. Set in a world where a
spacefaring British Empire comes complete with an aristocracy who have
real power (which I personally find implausible for a technological
society). Entertaining, and Nuttall is amazingly prolific, so it's worth
trying him just because of the large (and growing) volume of work
available if you find you like him.
Clearly BSG inspired. IIRC, "just war" was his hobby-horse in this series.
Post by m***@sky.com
David Weber Honorverse Series (e.g. "On Basilisk Station")
Very popular and very thoroughly imagined universe. I find it readable but not compelling.
OBS is compelling, a 3am book for me. Unfortunately, there was never
another one quite that good.

Nice list, but don't forget Philip Francis Nowlan
--
------
columbiaclosings.com
What's not in Columbia anymore..
J. Clarke
2017-04-29 10:19:40 UTC
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Post by m***@sky.com
Here is a MilSF list made up, not as a joke and not to push a point, but just because I think there should be a straightforward list, if only to act as a sort of base upon which more sophisticated treatments must draw - after all, if every treatment of the subject is an clever surprise, the element of clever surprise must necessarily be diminished. Feel free to add recommendations for books and series that I have missed.
David Drake Leary/Mundy Series (e.g. "With the Lightnings")
Shows people with varying strengths and weakness making the best of difficult circumstances, and bonding in a group for mutual support, which is still primarily an effective unit, and not just a support group.
David Drake "Redliners"
Study of people affected by combat stress, which is shown here as inducing changes which are adaptive in the context of life or death combat, but not necessarily in other circumstances.
Lois McMaster Bujold Vorkosiverse (e.g. "The Warrior's Apprentice")
Well presented universe with both light and dark sides. Most stories center around Miles Vorkosigan, admiral, tactician, and Ulyssean trickster, driven almost to insanity by his own limitations and circumstances.
Gordon R Dickson Dorsai Series (e.g. "Tactics of Mistake")
Interesting to me for the invention of the Dorsai, an elite military force whose skills include both mind over body powers and tactical theories somewhat reminiscent of Liddel Hart, if only for the prominence given to skilled tactics over superiority of force.
H. Paul Honsinger "Man of War" Series (e.g. "To Honor You Call Us")
Despite the uniformly clumsy titles, very good reading, and one of the few spacecraft-heavy series that get much mileage out of the workings and daily life of a spacecraft, borrowing both from the traditional Navy and from the organisation of ground control during the Apollo moon landings. Much cleverness associated with stealth in space (technically plausible or not).
Jerry Pournelle Falkenberg's Legion Series (includes a book of that name)
Action adventure that also attempts to show how the classic guerilla tactics typically used by Communist insurgencies could be countered. Part of an ambitious future history now somewhat out of joint due to the unexpected fall of the Soviet Union.
Elizabeth Moon Vatta's War Series (e.g. "Trading In Danger")
Prominent characters are not necessarily serving military, but this looks a lot like MilSF to me. A few otherwise normal characters find that they take great pleasure in killing as the ultimate expression of victory, which I find disturbing - perhaps more so because Moon makes it plausible.
R.M.Melluch Romans in Spaaaaace! Series (e.g. "The Myriad", and more usually and sensibly called the Tour of the Merrimack Series)
Notable for sheer chutzpah for reviving the Roman Empire in space, and for liberal use of time travel resets in printed fiction. Interesting portrayal of front line Marines as clearly picked for athleticism and bravery rather than intelligence or book learning, while still showing them as admirable for their strengths.
David Drake and Eric Flint Belisarius Series (e.g. "An Oblique Approach")
Alternate history MilSF which uses the historical Belisarius as a character. Apparently plotted as a demonstration of Liddel Hart's theories, despite Drake's reservations about their practicality (and Drake is not alone here).
Robert A. Heinlein "Starship Troopers"
Early and influential MilSF. Portrays limited strikes by heavily armoured soldiers and gives a sensible argument why such actions were not rendered obsolete by the invention of nuclear weapons. Set in a society where the military, and ex-military, have and maintain a commanding influence on society. I note that neither the fictional military nor the author claim that this influence is morally justified, although both appear to criticise some aspects of society as it was
during the author's lifetime. I also note that this was written when there were fewer historical examples of relative misrule by military juntas.

Sorry, but the society depicted in Starship Troopers is hardly a "junta".
If you read the book after you saw the movie it might be hard to get past
the movie and understand the point of the book. But in the book, the
military was _not_ in charge of society. What was in charge was voters who
had all spent a term in government service--"as long as you were still in
uniform you weren't entitled to a vote." It was made _less_ clear that
government service was not automatically military, at least not in the
sense that is is usually meant--two options specifically listed were
"experimental animal" and "laborer in the Terranizing of Venus", and it is
later stated that "In peacetime most veterans come from non-combatant
auxiliary services and have not been subjected to the full rigors of
military discipline; they have merely been harried, overworked, and
endangered--yet their votes count". Also, they _have_ to take anyone who
applies unless the psychiatrists decides that they can't understand the
oath. The example there is "But if you came in her in a wheel chair and
blind in both eyes and were silly enough to insist on enrolling, they would
find something silly enough to match. Counting the fuzz on a caterpillar
by touch, maybe". Bottom line is that it's not a bunch of colonels
pretending to be kings.

Sorry to digress but it drives me nuts when people act like Starship
Troopers has the army in control.
Post by m***@sky.com
Tom Kratman "Amazon Legion" (Part of a series whose other books I have not read)
I would guess that if asked to name a profession where people spent most of their time training, most people would not respond "peacetime military", but that appears to be a valid answer. Here Kratman describes the training of a unit made up of women. It is his reaction to the inclusion of women in the front line military, and interesting for that, but also for the rigours of modern military training.
Walter Jon Williams Dread Empire's Fall Series (e.g. "The Praxis")
Sophisticated and imaginative MilSF by a writer with a strong reputation made outside MilSF.
David Drake Hammer's Slammers Series (collected into books of that name)
Short stories featuring a future tank regiment heavily influenced by the author's service in Vietnam and greatly influential in their own right. Darker picture of war than most other MilSF.
Christopher G. Nuttall Ark Royal Series (starts with book of that name)
"Ark Royal" starts the series with a story of redemption for a washed up captain left in charge of museum piece of a ship. Set in a world where a spacefaring British Empire comes complete with an aristocracy who have real power (which I personally find implausible for a technological society). Entertaining, and Nuttall is amazingly prolific, so it's worth trying him just because of the large (and growing) volume of work available if you find you like him.
David Weber Honorverse Series (e.g. "On Basilisk Station")
Very popular and very thoroughly imagined universe. I find it readable but not compelling.
No "Forever War" by Joe Haldeman? Described once as "Starship Troopers by
someone who has actually been in a war". And if it's to be a base for
authors you should probably include Hornblower and Patrick O'Brien--not SF
but the model for a lot of it.
m***@sky.com
2017-04-29 12:38:40 UTC
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(trimmed)
Post by m***@sky.com
Post by m***@sky.com
Robert A. Heinlein "Starship Troopers"
Early and influential MilSF. Portrays limited strikes by heavily armoured soldiers and gives a sensible argument why such actions were not rendered obsolete by the invention of nuclear weapons. Set in a society where the military, and ex-military, have and maintain a commanding influence on society. I note that neither the fictional military nor the author claim that this influence is morally justified, although both appear to criticise some aspects of society as it was
during the author's lifetime. I also note that this was written when there were fewer historical examples of relative misrule by military juntas.
Sorry, but the society depicted in Starship Troopers is hardly a "junta".
If you read the book after you saw the movie it might be hard to get past
the movie and understand the point of the book. But in the book, the
military was _not_ in charge of society. What was in charge was voters who
had all spent a term in government service--"as long as you were still in
uniform you weren't entitled to a vote." It was made _less_ clear that
government service was not automatically military, at least not in the
sense that is is usually meant--two options specifically listed were
"experimental animal" and "laborer in the Terranizing of Venus", and it is
later stated that "In peacetime most veterans come from non-combatant
auxiliary services and have not been subjected to the full rigors of
military discipline; they have merely been harried, overworked, and
endangered--yet their votes count". Also, they _have_ to take anyone who
applies unless the psychiatrists decides that they can't understand the
oath. The example there is "But if you came in her in a wheel chair and
blind in both eyes and were silly enough to insist on enrolling, they would
find something silly enough to match. Counting the fuzz on a caterpillar
by touch, maybe". Bottom line is that it's not a bunch of colonels
pretending to be kings.
Sorry to digress but it drives me nuts when people act like Starship
Troopers has the army in control.
I can think of worse digressions, so here's how my views on Starship Troopers got in my mind:

At the beginning of Chapter 2, Rico's father is then an example of a class of businessmen who have no vote and do not take part in politics. In Chapter 12 we see that what is perhaps unreliably called a small group of veterans (not serving military) are allowed to vote (plus the non-combatant auxiliaries you mention). Although we are not talking about colonels with delusions of grandeur, I think that we are still talking about a class of people who have different priorities from the general population, and especially from the businesses. The atmosphere in Chapter 2 suggests that they do not oppress businesses, and there is not the problem of crony capitalism that is associated with so much modern misrule, but I still don't see them being especially good at fostering economic growth - which in the long term means that their nation will fall behind others.

(trimmed)
Post by m***@sky.com
No "Forever War" by Joe Haldeman? Described once as "Starship Troopers by
someone who has actually been in a war". And if it's to be a base for
authors you should probably include Hornblower and Patrick O'Brien--not SF
but the model for a lot of it.
I forgot about Haldeman, but then that means that Forever War didn't make much impression on me, except as a parable about inflation which returns to me repeatedly when I think of the people who will be retiring in the next 20 years - interesting, but not an obvious MilSF topic. Since I put Leary/Mundy top you will not be surprised to hear that Hornblower and O'Brian _did_ make an impression on me, but I wouldn't class them as MilSF, and wouldn't put them in a list with MilSF. One reason for not putting O'Brian in the same list is that I think MilSF can and should stand on its own feet, and I wouldn't want it to look like I was trying to give it an undeserved lift by grouping with the work of O'Brian, which is deservedly respected.
J. Clarke
2017-04-29 12:59:38 UTC
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Post by m***@sky.com
(trimmed)
Post by m***@sky.com
Post by m***@sky.com
Robert A. Heinlein "Starship Troopers"
Early and influential MilSF. Portrays limited strikes by heavily armoured soldiers and gives a sensible argument why such actions were not rendered obsolete by the invention of nuclear weapons. Set in a society where the military, and ex-military, have and maintain a commanding influence on society. I note that neither the fictional military nor the author claim that this influence is morally justified, although both appear to criticise some aspects of society as it
was
Post by m***@sky.com
Post by m***@sky.com
during the author's lifetime. I also note that this was written when there were fewer historical examples of relative misrule by military juntas.
Sorry, but the society depicted in Starship Troopers is hardly a "junta".
If you read the book after you saw the movie it might be hard to get past
the movie and understand the point of the book. But in the book, the
military was _not_ in charge of society. What was in charge was voters who
had all spent a term in government service--"as long as you were still in
uniform you weren't entitled to a vote." It was made _less_ clear that
government service was not automatically military, at least not in the
sense that is is usually meant--two options specifically listed were
"experimental animal" and "laborer in the Terranizing of Venus", and it is
later stated that "In peacetime most veterans come from non-combatant
auxiliary services and have not been subjected to the full rigors of
military discipline; they have merely been harried, overworked, and
endangered--yet their votes count". Also, they _have_ to take anyone who
applies unless the psychiatrists decides that they can't understand the
oath. The example there is "But if you came in her in a wheel chair and
blind in both eyes and were silly enough to insist on enrolling, they would
find something silly enough to match. Counting the fuzz on a caterpillar
by touch, maybe". Bottom line is that it's not a bunch of colonels
pretending to be kings.
Sorry to digress but it drives me nuts when people act like Starship
Troopers has the army in control.
At the beginning of Chapter 2, Rico's father is then an example of a class of businessmen who have no vote and do not take part in politics. In Chapter 12 we see that what is perhaps unreliably called a small group of veterans (not serving military) are allowed to vote (plus the non-combatant auxiliaries you mention). Although we are not talking about colonels with delusions of grandeur, I think that we are still talking about a class of people who have different
priorities from the general population, and especially from the businesses. The atmosphere in Chapter 2 suggests that they do not oppress businesses, and there is not the problem of crony capitalism that is associated with so much modern misrule, but I still don't see them being especially good at fostering economic growth - which in the long term means that their nation will fall behind others.

Remember that a businessman can join up at any time, serve his hitch, and
get a vote. If he doesn't want a vote and doesn't think it important that
his son have one, that suggests that he does not see the political process
as having any effect on his business. Why that would be Heinlein doesn't
address that I can recall.
Post by m***@sky.com
(trimmed)
Post by m***@sky.com
No "Forever War" by Joe Haldeman? Described once as "Starship Troopers by
someone who has actually been in a war". And if it's to be a base for
authors you should probably include Hornblower and Patrick O'Brien--not SF
but the model for a lot of it.
I forgot about Haldeman, but then that means that Forever War didn't make much impression on me, except as a parable about inflation which returns to me repeatedly when I think of the people who will be retiring in the next 20 years - interesting, but not an obvious MilSF topic. Since I put Leary/Mundy top you will not be surprised to hear that Hornblower and O'Brian _did_ make an impression on me, but I wouldn't class them as MilSF, and wouldn't put them in a list with
MilSF. One reason for not putting O'Brian in the same list is that I think MilSF can and should stand on its own feet, and I wouldn't want it to look like I was trying to give it an undeserved lift by grouping with the work of O'Brian, which is deservedly respected.
David Johnston
2017-04-29 14:40:51 UTC
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Post by m***@sky.com
(trimmed)
Post by m***@sky.com
Robert A. Heinlein "Starship Troopers" Early and influential
MilSF. Portrays limited strikes by heavily armoured soldiers and
gives a sensible argument why such actions were not rendered
obsolete by the invention of nuclear weapons. Set in a society
where the military, and ex-military, have and maintain a
commanding influence on society. I note that neither the
fictional military nor the author claim that this influence is
morally justified, although both appear to criticise some aspects
of society as it was
during the author's lifetime. I also note that this was written
when there were fewer historical examples of relative misrule by
military juntas.
Sorry, but the society depicted in Starship Troopers is hardly a
"junta". If you read the book after you saw the movie it might be
hard to get past the movie and understand the point of the book.
But in the book, the military was _not_ in charge of society. What
was in charge was voters who had all spent a term in government
service--"as long as you were still in uniform you weren't entitled
to a vote." It was made _less_ clear that government service was
not automatically military, at least not in the sense that is is
usually meant--two options specifically listed were "experimental
animal"
Which was a bit silly being written at a time when soldiers were most
definitely being used as experimental animals.

and "laborer in the Terranizing of Venus", and it is later
Post by m***@sky.com
Post by m***@sky.com
stated that "In peacetime most veterans come from non-combatant
auxiliary services and have not been subjected to the full rigors
of military discipline; they have merely been harried, overworked,
and endangered--yet their votes count". Also, they _have_ to take
anyone who applies unless the psychiatrists decides that they can't
understand the oath. The example there is "But if you came in her
in a wheel chair and blind in both eyes and were silly enough to
insist on enrolling, they would find something silly enough to
match. Counting the fuzz on a caterpillar by touch, maybe".
Bottom line is that it's not a bunch of colonels pretending to be
kings.
Sorry to digress but it drives me nuts when people act like
Starship Troopers has the army in control.
I can think of worse digressions, so here's how my views on Starship
At the beginning of Chapter 2, Rico's father is then an example of a
class of businessmen who have no vote and do not take part in
politics. In Chapter 12 we see that what is perhaps unreliably called
a small group of veterans (not serving military) are allowed to vote
(plus the non-combatant auxiliaries you mention). Although we are not
talking about colonels with delusions of grandeur, I think that we
are still talking about a class of people who have different
priorities from the general population, and especially from the
businesses. The atmosphere in Chapter 2 suggests that they do not
oppress businesses, and there is not the problem of crony capitalism
that is associated with so much modern misrule, but I still don't see
them being especially good at fostering economic growth - which in
the long term means that their nation will fall behind others.
Bah. That was supposed to be just routine bitching about the government
by a civilian, who being an inferior civilian was only concerned with
his own profit and how it could be a bit higher with government
assistance and therefore couldn't recognize that he lived in a
mathematically perfect utopia. there was nothing wrong with the
society's economic growth.
Post by m***@sky.com
(trimmed)
Post by m***@sky.com
No "Forever War" by Joe Haldeman? Described once as "Starship
Troopers by someone who has actually been in a war". And if it's
to be a base for authors you should probably include Hornblower and
Patrick O'Brien--not SF but the model for a lot of it.
I forgot about Haldeman, but then that means that Forever War didn't
make much impression on me, except as a parable about inflation which
returns to me repeatedly when I think of the people who will be
retiring in the next 20 years -
The unique issue of trying to fight a slower than light interstellar war
is about something more than inflation I think.
m***@sky.com
2017-04-29 15:59:06 UTC
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On Saturday, April 29, 2017 at 3:42:02 PM UTC+1, David Johnston wrote:
(trimmed)
Post by David Johnston
Post by m***@sky.com
I forgot about Haldeman, but then that means that Forever War didn't
make much impression on me, except as a parable about inflation which
returns to me repeatedly when I think of the people who will be
retiring in the next 20 years -
The unique issue of trying to fight a slower than light interstellar war
is about something more than inflation I think.
What I remember is that combat veterans had notionally immense savings, but when they tried to spend them in a limited pool of labor and resources, they found that their immense savings could only buy a distinctly finite portion of labor and resources. Supposing that people who retire within the next 20 years or so have all accumulated the sort of retirement fund we are advised to build up, if demographic change means that there is a shortage of care workers and home helps and nurses then all of these savings will suddenly look small compared to the rising salaries of nurses, as they all bid against each other for a finite source of talent. (Hopefully the Japanese will all sell us robots to look after ourselves - I would like a waldo capable of changing dressing I cannot reach and of applying eye drops when I am old enough to have to worry about such things).
Quadibloc
2017-05-01 14:13:07 UTC
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Post by David Johnston
Bah. That was supposed to be just routine bitching about the government
by a civilian, who being an inferior civilian was only concerned with
his own profit and how it could be a bit higher with government
assistance and therefore couldn't recognize that he lived in a
mathematically perfect utopia. there was nothing wrong with the
society's economic growth.
I don't know; I think Heinlein wrote _Starship Troopers_ to make people
think, not to inspire them to unthinkingly emulate the society he depicted.

I think he did, to some extent, "approve" of what he depicted in the sense
that it was a society that tried to address - without going too far in the
other direction - flaws that existed in our present-day society. But did it
really succeed in not going too far? I think we were allowed to ask that
question.

John Savard
David Johnston
2017-05-01 16:28:38 UTC
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Post by Quadibloc
Post by David Johnston
Bah. That was supposed to be just routine bitching about the government
by a civilian, who being an inferior civilian was only concerned with
his own profit and how it could be a bit higher with government
assistance and therefore couldn't recognize that he lived in a
mathematically perfect utopia. there was nothing wrong with the
society's economic growth.
I don't know; I think Heinlein wrote _Starship Troopers_ to make people
think, not to inspire them to unthinkingly emulate the society he depicted.
I think you could say that about almost any utopian novel.
Post by Quadibloc
I think he did, to some extent, "approve" of what he depicted in the sense
that it was a society that tried to address - without going too far in the
other direction - flaws that existed in our present-day society. But did it
really succeed in not going too far? I think we were allowed to ask that
question.
Maybe but if it does, Heinlein gives no real hint of it. Daddy Rico
seems very prosperous despite his complaint and if anyone in his
civilization is living in deprivation, then we are shown no hint of
them. Daddy Rico considers the vote entirely valueless and that alone
establishes that he is content and has no real objection to the
government's laissez-faire economics. Indoctrination Guy verbally
concedes that their civilization isn't perfect...but that's entirely an
informed attribute. Everybody is happy except for a tiny minority of
inconsequential idiots and weaklings.
Lynn McGuire
2017-04-29 20:21:55 UTC
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Post by m***@sky.com
Here is a MilSF list made up, not as a joke and not to push a point, but just because I think there should be a straightforward list, if only to act as a sort of base upon which more sophisticated treatments must draw - after all, if every treatment of the subject is an clever surprise, the element of clever surprise must necessarily be diminished. Feel free to add recommendations for books and series that I have missed.
David Drake Leary/Mundy Series (e.g. "With the Lightnings")
Shows people with varying strengths and weakness making the best of difficult circumstances, and bonding in a group for mutual support, which is still primarily an effective unit, and not just a support group.
David Drake "Redliners"
Study of people affected by combat stress, which is shown here as inducing changes which are adaptive in the context of life or death combat, but not necessarily in other circumstances.
Lois McMaster Bujold Vorkosiverse (e.g. "The Warrior's Apprentice")
Well presented universe with both light and dark sides. Most stories center around Miles Vorkosigan, admiral, tactician, and Ulyssean trickster, driven almost to insanity by his own limitations and circumstances.
Gordon R Dickson Dorsai Series (e.g. "Tactics of Mistake")
Interesting to me for the invention of the Dorsai, an elite military force whose skills include both mind over body powers and tactical theories somewhat reminiscent of Liddel Hart, if only for the prominence given to skilled tactics over superiority of force.
H. Paul Honsinger "Man of War" Series (e.g. "To Honor You Call Us")
Despite the uniformly clumsy titles, very good reading, and one of the few spacecraft-heavy series that get much mileage out of the workings and daily life of a spacecraft, borrowing both from the traditional Navy and from the organisation of ground control during the Apollo moon landings. Much cleverness associated with stealth in space (technically plausible or not).
Jerry Pournelle Falkenberg's Legion Series (includes a book of that name)
Action adventure that also attempts to show how the classic guerilla tactics typically used by Communist insurgencies could be countered. Part of an ambitious future history now somewhat out of joint due to the unexpected fall of the Soviet Union.
Elizabeth Moon Vatta's War Series (e.g. "Trading In Danger")
Prominent characters are not necessarily serving military, but this looks a lot like MilSF to me. A few otherwise normal characters find that they take great pleasure in killing as the ultimate expression of victory, which I find disturbing - perhaps more so because Moon makes it plausible.
R.M.Melluch Romans in Spaaaaace! Series (e.g. "The Myriad", and more usually and sensibly called the Tour of the Merrimack Series)
Notable for sheer chutzpah for reviving the Roman Empire in space, and for liberal use of time travel resets in printed fiction. Interesting portrayal of front line Marines as clearly picked for athleticism and bravery rather than intelligence or book learning, while still showing them as admirable for their strengths.
David Drake and Eric Flint Belisarius Series (e.g. "An Oblique Approach")
Alternate history MilSF which uses the historical Belisarius as a character. Apparently plotted as a demonstration of Liddel Hart's theories, despite Drake's reservations about their practicality (and Drake is not alone here).
Robert A. Heinlein "Starship Troopers"
Early and influential MilSF. Portrays limited strikes by heavily armoured soldiers and gives a sensible argument why such actions were not rendered obsolete by the invention of nuclear weapons. Set in a society where the military, and ex-military, have and maintain a commanding influence on society. I note that neither the fictional military nor the author claim that this influence is morally justified, although both appear to criticise some aspects of society as it was during the author's lifetime. I also note that this was written when there were fewer historical examples of relative misrule by military juntas.
Tom Kratman "Amazon Legion" (Part of a series whose other books I have not read)
I would guess that if asked to name a profession where people spent most of their time training, most people would not respond "peacetime military", but that appears to be a valid answer. Here Kratman describes the training of a unit made up of women. It is his reaction to the inclusion of women in the front line military, and interesting for that, but also for the rigours of modern military training.
Walter Jon Williams Dread Empire's Fall Series (e.g. "The Praxis")
Sophisticated and imaginative MilSF by a writer with a strong reputation made outside MilSF.
David Drake Hammer's Slammers Series (collected into books of that name)
Short stories featuring a future tank regiment heavily influenced by the author's service in Vietnam and greatly influential in their own right. Darker picture of war than most other MilSF.
Christopher G. Nuttall Ark Royal Series (starts with book of that name)
"Ark Royal" starts the series with a story of redemption for a washed up captain left in charge of museum piece of a ship. Set in a world where a spacefaring British Empire comes complete with an aristocracy who have real power (which I personally find implausible for a technological society). Entertaining, and Nuttall is amazingly prolific, so it's worth trying him just because of the large (and growing) volume of work available if you find you like him.
David Weber Honorverse Series (e.g. "On Basilisk Station")
Very popular and very thoroughly imagined universe. I find it readable but not compelling.
I would advise adding David Weber's most excellent Dahak series starting
with _Mutineer's Moon_:
https://www.amazon.com/Mutineers-Moon-Dahak-David-Weber/dp/0671720856/

Lynn
Jack Bohn
2017-05-01 14:08:28 UTC
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Post by Lynn McGuire
I would advise adding David Weber's most excellent Dahak series starting
https://www.amazon.com/Mutineers-Moon-Dahak-David-Weber/dp/0671720856/
I don't know how the series progressed, but wasn't _Mutineer's Moon_ mostly on a small group of agents and their individual acts of daring do? It's probably a fuzzy line. I'm not sure one would find a MilSF story in the Bolo or Berserker series.

Zahn's first Cobra story would be a postscript to MilSF, and I gather a few beyond that were about them working in colonization (similar to Harrison's Deathworld series?) I don't know if he wrote any prequels as MilSF.


_Old Man's War_ by Scalzi would seem to qualify.

I borrowed from my sister two volumes of a MilSF shared universe anthology series, "The Fleet" edited by David Drake and Bill Fawcett. If I were to write a review of them, it would probably be under the title of "MilSF That Does Suck." Worse, it appears to have been the only place I would have read Niven's story about the murder of Halley's Comet, so I had bought a volume of this earlier, and not thought well enough of it to keep.
--
-Jack
James Nicoll
2017-05-01 15:34:33 UTC
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Post by Jack Bohn
Post by Lynn McGuire
I would advise adding David Weber's most excellent Dahak series starting
https://www.amazon.com/Mutineers-Moon-Dahak-David-Weber/dp/0671720856/
I don't know how the series progressed, but wasn't _Mutineer's Moon_
mostly on a small group of agents and their individual acts of daring
do? It's probably a fuzzy line. I'm not sure one would find a MilSF
story in the Bolo or Berserker series.
How broadly do you want to define MilSF? Technically, a loner following
orders from his superiors could count, and there's at least one of those
in the Bolo series. But I didn't include a Miles Vorkosigan story because
as I said elsewhere, they feel more like caper stories to me, except for
the romance which is more of a cautionary tale.

Is Alamagoosa MilSF?
--
My reviews can be found at http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/
My Livejournal at http://www.livejournal.com/users/james_nicoll
My patreon is at https://www.patreon.com/jamesdnicoll
m***@sky.com
2017-05-01 16:34:46 UTC
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Post by James Nicoll
Post by Jack Bohn
Post by Lynn McGuire
I would advise adding David Weber's most excellent Dahak series starting
https://www.amazon.com/Mutineers-Moon-Dahak-David-Weber/dp/0671720856/
I don't know how the series progressed, but wasn't _Mutineer's Moon_
mostly on a small group of agents and their individual acts of daring
do? It's probably a fuzzy line. I'm not sure one would find a MilSF
story in the Bolo or Berserker series.
How broadly do you want to define MilSF? Technically, a loner following
orders from his superiors could count, and there's at least one of those
in the Bolo series. But I didn't include a Miles Vorkosigan story because
as I said elsewhere, they feel more like caper stories to me, except for
the romance which is more of a cautionary tale.
Is Alamagoosa MilSF?
--
My reviews can be found at http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/
My Livejournal at http://www.livejournal.com/users/james_nicoll
My patreon is at https://www.patreon.com/jamesdnicoll
Just to point out that caper can be a command style, here is an excerpt from the memoir "Popski's Private Army" by Vladimir Peniakoff

From the first his 'B' Patrol became a closed world, a crack unit, intolerable sometimes in their assumption of superiority, and so pleased with themselves that I could, at times, have wished that failure would teach them a fairer appreciation of other people's achievements.

They enjoyed themselves so light-heartedly that no one bore them a grudge for their occasional boastings; rather, I think, the men who served under more sedate leaders, such as myself, envied the privilege of those who were admitted to 'B' patrol. Inspired with a sense of fun, they enjoyed the travelling, the fighting, the unexpectedness and the hazards of their roving life; as to hardships, they were generally so clever at making themselves comfortable that when by some chance they had to skip a meal or spend a night in the mud, they could afford to laugh at the mishap and treat it as joke.

(Chapter 2 of Part 5 indexed under Yunnie, Capt R. P., M.C.)
David Johnston
2017-05-01 17:33:18 UTC
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Post by James Nicoll
Post by Jack Bohn
Post by Lynn McGuire
I would advise adding David Weber's most excellent Dahak series starting
https://www.amazon.com/Mutineers-Moon-Dahak-David-Weber/dp/0671720856/
I don't know how the series progressed, but wasn't _Mutineer's Moon_
mostly on a small group of agents and their individual acts of daring
do? It's probably a fuzzy line. I'm not sure one would find a MilSF
story in the Bolo or Berserker series.
How broadly do you want to define MilSF? Technically, a loner following
orders from his superiors could count, and there's at least one of those
in the Bolo series. But I didn't include a Miles Vorkosigan story because
as I said elsewhere, they feel more like caper stories to me, except for
the romance which is more of a cautionary tale.
Is Alamagoosa MilSF?
Yeah but it's comedy MilSF like Phule's Company.
Dorothy J Heydt
2017-05-01 18:50:44 UTC
Reply
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Post by David Johnston
Post by James Nicoll
Post by Jack Bohn
Post by Lynn McGuire
I would advise adding David Weber's most excellent Dahak series starting
https://www.amazon.com/Mutineers-Moon-Dahak-David-Weber/dp/0671720856/
I don't know how the series progressed, but wasn't _Mutineer's Moon_
mostly on a small group of agents and their individual acts of daring
do? It's probably a fuzzy line. I'm not sure one would find a MilSF
story in the Bolo or Berserker series.
How broadly do you want to define MilSF? Technically, a loner following
orders from his superiors could count, and there's at least one of those
in the Bolo series. But I didn't include a Miles Vorkosigan story because
as I said elsewhere, they feel more like caper stories to me, except for
the romance which is more of a cautionary tale.
Is Alamagoosa MilSF?
Yeah but it's comedy MilSF like Phule's Company.
Yeah.

Since we're considering comedy MilSF at the moment, a lot of
Eric Frank Russell. _Wasp_, _The Space Willies_ (originally
"Plus X," a much better title), "Nuisance Value," and probably a
lot of others I never had the opportunity of reading. As
everyone here probably knows, Russell worked for the Dirty Tricks
Dept. of British Intelligence during WWII, and _Wasp_ in
particular uses a lot of the tricks he thought up for use against
Japan but the brass wouldn't let him.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Sjouke Burry
2017-05-01 19:48:35 UTC
Reply
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Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by David Johnston
Post by James Nicoll
Post by Jack Bohn
Post by Lynn McGuire
I would advise adding David Weber's most excellent Dahak series starting
https://www.amazon.com/Mutineers-Moon-Dahak-David-Weber/dp/0671720856/
I don't know how the series progressed, but wasn't _Mutineer's Moon_
mostly on a small group of agents and their individual acts of daring
do? It's probably a fuzzy line. I'm not sure one would find a MilSF
story in the Bolo or Berserker series.
How broadly do you want to define MilSF? Technically, a loner following
orders from his superiors could count, and there's at least one of those
in the Bolo series. But I didn't include a Miles Vorkosigan story because
as I said elsewhere, they feel more like caper stories to me, except for
the romance which is more of a cautionary tale.
Is Alamagoosa MilSF?
Yeah but it's comedy MilSF like Phule's Company.
Yeah.
Since we're considering comedy MilSF at the moment, a lot of
Eric Frank Russell. _Wasp_, _The Space Willies_ (originally
"Plus X," a much better title), "Nuisance Value," and probably a
lot of others I never had the opportunity of reading. As
everyone here probably knows, Russell worked for the Dirty Tricks
Dept. of British Intelligence during WWII, and _Wasp_ in
particular uses a lot of the tricks he thought up for use against
Japan but the brass wouldn't let him.
AAAH!!!Thank you for reminding me . Wasp, a beautiful piece
of spy/sabotage SF(science fiction).
Ted Nolan <tednolan>
2017-05-01 21:05:57 UTC
Reply
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Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by David Johnston
Post by James Nicoll
Post by Jack Bohn
Post by Lynn McGuire
I would advise adding David Weber's most excellent Dahak series starting
https://www.amazon.com/Mutineers-Moon-Dahak-David-Weber/dp/0671720856/
I don't know how the series progressed, but wasn't _Mutineer's Moon_
mostly on a small group of agents and their individual acts of daring
do? It's probably a fuzzy line. I'm not sure one would find a MilSF
story in the Bolo or Berserker series.
How broadly do you want to define MilSF? Technically, a loner following
orders from his superiors could count, and there's at least one of those
in the Bolo series. But I didn't include a Miles Vorkosigan story because
as I said elsewhere, they feel more like caper stories to me, except for
the romance which is more of a cautionary tale.
Is Alamagoosa MilSF?
Yeah but it's comedy MilSF like Phule's Company.
Yeah.
Since we're considering comedy MilSF at the moment, a lot of
Eric Frank Russell. _Wasp_, _The Space Willies_ (originally
"Plus X," a much better title), "Nuisance Value," and probably a
lot of others I never had the opportunity of reading. As
everyone here probably knows, Russell worked for the Dirty Tricks
Dept. of British Intelligence during WWII, and _Wasp_ in
particular uses a lot of the tricks he thought up for use against
Japan but the brass wouldn't let him.
_Wasp_ wasn't a funny book though, as far as I can recall. "And Then There
Were None" might be a better example.
--
------
columbiaclosings.com
What's not in Columbia anymore..
Dorothy J Heydt
2017-05-01 23:43:36 UTC
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Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by David Johnston
Post by James Nicoll
Post by Jack Bohn
Post by Lynn McGuire
I would advise adding David Weber's most excellent Dahak series starting
https://www.amazon.com/Mutineers-Moon-Dahak-David-Weber/dp/0671720856/
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by David Johnston
Post by James Nicoll
Post by Jack Bohn
I don't know how the series progressed, but wasn't _Mutineer's Moon_
mostly on a small group of agents and their individual acts of daring
do? It's probably a fuzzy line. I'm not sure one would find a MilSF
story in the Bolo or Berserker series.
How broadly do you want to define MilSF? Technically, a loner following
orders from his superiors could count, and there's at least one of those
in the Bolo series. But I didn't include a Miles Vorkosigan story because
as I said elsewhere, they feel more like caper stories to me, except for
the romance which is more of a cautionary tale.
Is Alamagoosa MilSF?
Yeah but it's comedy MilSF like Phule's Company.
Yeah.
Since we're considering comedy MilSF at the moment, a lot of
Eric Frank Russell. _Wasp_, _The Space Willies_ (originally
"Plus X," a much better title), "Nuisance Value," and probably a
lot of others I never had the opportunity of reading. As
everyone here probably knows, Russell worked for the Dirty Tricks
Dept. of British Intelligence during WWII, and _Wasp_ in
particular uses a lot of the tricks he thought up for use against
Japan but the brass wouldn't let him.
_Wasp_ wasn't a funny book though, as far as I can recall.
Well, tastes in comedy do differ: consider me vs. Pratchett. I
think _Wasp_ is a hoot.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Don Kuenz
2017-05-02 03:16:24 UTC
Reply
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Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by David Johnston
Post by James Nicoll
Post by Jack Bohn
Post by Lynn McGuire
I would advise adding David Weber's most excellent Dahak series starting
https://www.amazon.com/Mutineers-Moon-Dahak-David-Weber/dp/0671720856/
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by David Johnston
Post by James Nicoll
Post by Jack Bohn
I don't know how the series progressed, but wasn't _Mutineer's Moon_
mostly on a small group of agents and their individual acts of daring
do? It's probably a fuzzy line. I'm not sure one would find a MilSF
story in the Bolo or Berserker series.
How broadly do you want to define MilSF? Technically, a loner following
orders from his superiors could count, and there's at least one of those
in the Bolo series. But I didn't include a Miles Vorkosigan story because
as I said elsewhere, they feel more like caper stories to me, except for
the romance which is more of a cautionary tale.
Is Alamagoosa MilSF?
Yeah but it's comedy MilSF like Phule's Company.
Yeah.
Since we're considering comedy MilSF at the moment, a lot of
Eric Frank Russell. _Wasp_, _The Space Willies_ (originally
"Plus X," a much better title), "Nuisance Value," and probably a
lot of others I never had the opportunity of reading. As
everyone here probably knows, Russell worked for the Dirty Tricks
Dept. of British Intelligence during WWII, and _Wasp_ in
particular uses a lot of the tricks he thought up for use against
Japan but the brass wouldn't let him.
_Wasp_ wasn't a funny book though, as far as I can recall.
Well, tastes in comedy do differ: consider me vs. Pratchett. I
think _Wasp_ is a hoot.
Stickers that etch a subversive message on glass when you remove them
tickle my funny bone. It's also funny when Sirian plebes see right
through their leader's propaganda. _Warren Peace_ (Shaw) is also funny.

Thank you,

--
Don Kuenz KB7RPU
James Nicoll
2017-05-01 15:40:18 UTC
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Post by Jack Bohn
I borrowed from my sister two volumes of a MilSF shared universe
anthology series, "The Fleet" edited by David Drake and Bill Fawcett.
If I were to write a review of them, it would probably be under the
title of "MilSF That Does Suck."
That would be a much much easier list to compile.

I remember once trying to work out which Evil Space Lizards Prove Genocide
is OK Sometimes MilSF book from Baen was which, because I got sent two from
different authors back to back.

(The absolute worse MilSF I've seen is from what seems to be a collective of
friends and relatives who have an imprint. Cannot remember the name, sadly.
It's not Baen. It makes Baen look like DAW. All I remember about the company
is that I once discovered I was 12.5% of their readership for one particular
book.)
Post by Jack Bohn
Worse, it appears to have been the
only place I would have read Niven's story about the murder of Halley's
Comet, so I had bought a volume of this earlier, and not thought well
enough of it to keep.
I did that with Always Coming Home. Not only count not finish it,
could not remember starting it.
--
My reviews can be found at http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/
My Livejournal at http://www.livejournal.com/users/james_nicoll
My patreon is at https://www.patreon.com/jamesdnicoll
Quadibloc
2017-05-03 15:25:35 UTC
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Post by James Nicoll
(The absolute worse MilSF I've seen is from what seems to be a collective of
friends and relatives who have an imprint. Cannot remember the name, sadly.
It's not Baen. It makes Baen look like DAW. All I remember about the company
is that I once discovered I was 12.5% of their readership for one particular
book.)
I shall take this as a challenge to my Google-fu!

John Savard
Quadibloc
2017-05-03 15:31:48 UTC
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Post by Quadibloc
Post by James Nicoll
(The absolute worse MilSF I've seen is from what seems to be a collective of
friends and relatives who have an imprint. Cannot remember the name, sadly.
It's not Baen. It makes Baen look like DAW. All I remember about the company
is that I once discovered I was 12.5% of their readership for one particular
book.)
I shall take this as a challenge to my Google-fu!
So far, all I've found out is that it definitely isn't Ragnarok Publications,
even though I had never heard of them, they are out of that league.

John Savard
Lynn McGuire
2017-05-01 21:57:48 UTC
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Post by Jack Bohn
Post by Lynn McGuire
I would advise adding David Weber's most excellent Dahak series starting
https://www.amazon.com/Mutineers-Moon-Dahak-David-Weber/dp/0671720856/
I don't know how the series progressed, but wasn't _Mutineer's Moon_ mostly on a small group of agents and their individual acts of daring do? It's probably a fuzzy line. I'm not sure one would find a MilSF story in the Bolo or Berserker series.
Zahn's first Cobra story would be a postscript to MilSF, and I gather a few beyond that were about them working in colonization (similar to Harrison's Deathworld series?) I don't know if he wrote any prequels as MilSF.
_Old Man's War_ by Scalzi would seem to qualify.
I borrowed from my sister two volumes of a MilSF shared universe anthology series, "The Fleet" edited by David Drake and Bill Fawcett. If I were to write a review of them, it would probably be under the title of "MilSF That Does Suck." Worse, it appears to have been the only place I would have read Niven's story about the murder of Halley's Comet, so I had bought a volume of this earlier, and not thought well enough of it to keep.
The Dahak series is based an attempt to destroy the Earth by a very
aggressive species of space aliens. There are many characters defined
on the Earth and the expedition to the head planet of the dead Imperium.
There is even a detailed section about one of the space aliens. The
Dahak series is probably influenced by the Perry Rhodan series.

And _Old Man's War_ gets my vote as well.

Lynn
Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)
2017-05-02 12:00:59 UTC
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Post by Jack Bohn
Post by Lynn McGuire
I would advise adding David Weber's most excellent Dahak series starting
https://www.amazon.com/Mutineers-Moon-Dahak-David-Weber/dp/0671720856/
I don't know how the series progressed, but wasn't _Mutineer's Moon_ mostly on a small group of agents and their individual acts of daring do? It's probably a fuzzy line. I'm not sure one would find a MilSF story in the Bolo or Berserker series.
I consider Mutineer's Moon to be grand-scale Space Opera in the
Smithian vein, with some military episodes.
--
Sea Wasp
/^\
;;;
Website: http://www.grandcentralarena.com Blog:
http://seawasp.livejournal.com
Lynn McGuire
2017-05-02 20:37:37 UTC
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Post by Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)
Post by Jack Bohn
Post by Lynn McGuire
I would advise adding David Weber's most excellent Dahak series starting
https://www.amazon.com/Mutineers-Moon-Dahak-David-Weber/dp/0671720856/
I don't know how the series progressed, but wasn't _Mutineer's Moon_
mostly on a small group of agents and their individual acts of daring
do? It's probably a fuzzy line. I'm not sure one would find a MilSF
story in the Bolo or Berserker series.
I consider Mutineer's Moon to be grand-scale Space Opera in the
Smithian vein, with some military episodes.
I won't argue with that except changing the "some" to "a lot of". You
got of a lot of inter-Earth action and nuclear battles between the
original mutineers, "armoring" the Earth with a planetary defense shield
and LEO forts, besieging of the Earth with alien spaceships and big
rocks, and a saving of the Earth.

How about _The Armageddon Inheritance_, the middle of the Dahak trilogy
? That is all about spaceship maneuvering and epic battles.
https://www.amazon.com/Armageddon-Inheritance-David-Weber/dp/0671721976/

Now the third book in the Dahak series is about betrayal and fighting a
land battle across 1,000 miles with hundred thousand men armies using
16th century technology.
https://www.amazon.com/Heirs-Empire-Dahak-David-Weber/dp/0671877070/

Lynn
Lynn McGuire
2017-05-02 21:07:21 UTC
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Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)
Post by Jack Bohn
Post by Lynn McGuire
I would advise adding David Weber's most excellent Dahak series starting
https://www.amazon.com/Mutineers-Moon-Dahak-David-Weber/dp/0671720856/
I don't know how the series progressed, but wasn't _Mutineer's Moon_
mostly on a small group of agents and their individual acts of daring
do? It's probably a fuzzy line. I'm not sure one would find a MilSF
story in the Bolo or Berserker series.
I consider Mutineer's Moon to be grand-scale Space Opera in the
Smithian vein, with some military episodes.
I won't argue with that except changing the "some" to "a lot of". You
got of a lot of inter-Earth action and nuclear battles between the
original mutineers, "armoring" the Earth with a planetary defense shield
and LEO forts, besieging of the Earth with alien spaceships and big
rocks, and a saving of the Earth.
How about _The Armageddon Inheritance_, the middle of the Dahak trilogy
? That is all about spaceship maneuvering and epic battles.
https://www.amazon.com/Armageddon-Inheritance-David-Weber/dp/0671721976/
Now the third book in the Dahak series is about betrayal and fighting a
land battle across 1,000 miles with hundred thousand men armies using
16th century technology.
https://www.amazon.com/Heirs-Empire-Dahak-David-Weber/dp/0671877070/
Lynn
^inter-Earth^intra-Earth

Sigh.

Lynn
Scott Lurndal
2017-05-03 13:11:28 UTC
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Post by Lynn McGuire
Now the third book in the Dahak series is about betrayal and fighting a
land battle across 1,000 miles with hundred thousand men armies using
16th century technology.
https://www.amazon.com/Heirs-Empire-Dahak-David-Weber/dp/0671877070/
Which is the same trope used in the Empire of Man trilogy co-authored by
Ringo, and also in the Armageddon Reef series.
Lynn McGuire
2017-05-03 17:24:56 UTC
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Post by Scott Lurndal
Post by Lynn McGuire
Now the third book in the Dahak series is about betrayal and fighting a
land battle across 1,000 miles with hundred thousand men armies using
16th century technology.
https://www.amazon.com/Heirs-Empire-Dahak-David-Weber/dp/0671877070/
Which is the same trope used in the Empire of Man trilogy co-authored by
Ringo, and also in the Armageddon Reef series.
Works for me !

BTW, for me, the Armageddon Reef series is just a retelling of the Dahak
series with a few base ideas changed.

Lynn

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