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Young People Read Old SFF: When It Changed by Joanna Russ
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James Nicoll
2017-03-02 14:40:58 UTC
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Young People Read Old SFF: When It Changed by Joanna Russ

http://youngpeoplereadoldsff.com/story/when-it-changed
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My reviews can be found at http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/
My Livejournal at http://www.livejournal.com/users/james_nicoll
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Default User
2017-03-02 18:43:04 UTC
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Post by James Nicoll
Young People Read Old SFF: When It Changed by Joanna Russ
http://youngpeoplereadoldsff.com/story/when-it-changed
Did one of the usual contributors not participate?


Brian
Quadibloc
2017-03-02 19:22:04 UTC
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Post by Default User
Did one of the usual contributors not participate?
And did she find the story *more* objectionable than the previous ones in the
series to which she was exposed, for some incredible reason?

I'm thinking of two other possibilities: she gave up on the project before this
book came, *or* she was so incensed at the book *pretending*, in her view, to be
supporting equality that her comments could not be reproduced online for...
legal reasons!

John Savard
Quadibloc
2017-03-02 19:24:12 UTC
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There is a third one. Like many college students these days, she may actually know
how to use a computer and the Internet, and she may have found out what people
were saying about her comments online...

like here...

and, quite understandably, she may have requested her instructor no longer post
them on his web site. Not everyone is indifferent to being held up to ridicule.

John Savard
Kevrob
2017-03-02 20:00:05 UTC
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Post by Quadibloc
There is a third one. Like many college students these days, she may actually know
how to use a computer and the Internet, and she may have found out what people
were saying about her comments online...
like here...
and, quite understandably, she may have requested her instructor no longer post
them on his web site. Not everyone is indifferent to being held up to ridicule.
John Savard
...and others aren't discouraged by it at all.

Kevin R
Juho Julkunen
2017-03-02 20:40:17 UTC
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Post by Kevrob
Post by Quadibloc
them on his web site. Not everyone is indifferent to being held up to ridicule.
John Savard
...and others aren't discouraged by it at all.
There is something to be said for the moderating effect of a sense of
shame, felt most keenly when it fails to operate.
--
Juho Julkunen
James Nicoll
2017-03-02 20:08:35 UTC
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Post by James Nicoll
Young People Read Old SFF: When It Changed by Joanna Russ
http://youngpeoplereadoldsff.com/story/when-it-changed
Did one of the usual contributors not participate?
Yes: grad midterms.
--
My reviews can be found at http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/
My Livejournal at http://www.livejournal.com/users/james_nicoll
My patreon is at https://www.patreon.com/jamesdnicoll
Stephen Graham
2017-03-03 19:16:31 UTC
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Post by James Nicoll
Post by Default User
Post by James Nicoll
Young People Read Old SFF: When It Changed by Joanna Russ
http://youngpeoplereadoldsff.com/story/when-it-changed
Did one of the usual contributors not participate?
Yes: grad midterms.
I'd be interested to read her comments if she has a chance to read and
comment at some point.
Robert Carnegie
2017-03-06 20:42:47 UTC
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Post by Stephen Graham
Post by James Nicoll
Post by Default User
Post by James Nicoll
Young People Read Old SFF: When It Changed by Joanna Russ
http://youngpeoplereadoldsff.com/story/when-it-changed
Did one of the usual contributors not participate?
Yes: grad midterms.
I'd be interested to read her comments if she has a chance to read and
comment at some point.
Oh? Everyone else seems to know already what
Unnamed Female Millennial would say.

I don't - but then, I haven't been paying the
closest attention.

Everyone else also knows what they think about
whatever it is she hasn't actually said.
Quadibloc
2017-03-07 02:13:42 UTC
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Post by Robert Carnegie
Oh? Everyone else seems to know already what
Unnamed Female Millennial would say.
Not having read the story, I don't claim that - I do know what she has said
about other stories, and at first, not knowing why she hadn't commented on this
one, I speculated on _possible_ reasons for that.

Now that I know her absence is not because she was, for some baffling reason,
more outraged by this story than by any of the previous ones, I am entirely open
to the possibility that she may even _like_ this one for a change, even with
qualifications.

John Savard
Quadibloc
2017-03-10 18:28:32 UTC
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Speaking of "unnamed female millenial", persons like her are made, not born, and I
just came across this news item that explains how they're made:

http://www.torontosun.com/2017/03/09/ryerson-instructor-tells-student-to-only-rely-on-feminist-journals

John Savard

C. E. Gee
2017-03-03 18:44:55 UTC
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Post by James Nicoll
Young People Read Old SFF: When It Changed by Joanna Russ
http://youngpeoplereadoldsff.com/story/when-it-changed
--
My reviews can be found at http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/
My Livejournal at http://www.livejournal.com/users/james_nicoll
My patreon is at https://www.patreon.com/jamesdnicoll
I noticed SF changing when Heinlein's "Stranger in a Strange Land" was published.

When I read the thing I thought to myself "Heinlein's really gone downhill!" If I remember correctly this was in 1962 or so.

From that time all the way thru the "hippy-dippy era" SF was terrible.

But nowadays things seem to have gotten back on course.

NAMASTE

C.E. Gee AKA Chuck

http://www.kinzuakid.blogspot.com
Ahasuerus
2017-03-03 19:12:51 UTC
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On Friday, March 3, 2017 at 1:45:00 PM UTC-5, C. E. Gee wrote:
[snip]
Post by C. E. Gee
I noticed SF changing when Heinlein's "Stranger in a Strange Land" was published.
When I read the thing I thought to myself "Heinlein's really gone
downhill!" If I remember correctly this was in 1962 or so.
From that time all the way thru the "hippy-dippy era" SF was terrible.
But nowadays things seem to have gotten back on course.
There is so much stuff out there --
http://www.isfdb.org/cgi-bin/stats_charts.cgi?Titles -- that it's easier
to find what you want. Up to and including
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dinosaur_erotica !
Greg Goss
2017-03-05 15:43:39 UTC
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Post by C. E. Gee
Post by James Nicoll
Young People Read Old SFF: When It Changed by Joanna Russ
http://youngpeoplereadoldsff.com/story/when-it-changed
--
My reviews can be found at http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/
My Livejournal at http://www.livejournal.com/users/james_nicoll
My patreon is at https://www.patreon.com/jamesdnicoll
I noticed SF changing when Heinlein's "Stranger in a Strange Land" was published.
When I read the thing I thought to myself "Heinlein's really gone downhill!" If I remember correctly this was in 1962 or so.
From that time all the way thru the "hippy-dippy era" SF was terrible.
But nowadays things seem to have gotten back on course.
Niven got his start right about then. The seventies had the best of
the Niven/Pournell novels.

I came of age in the late sixties / early seventies, and while I hated
the "new wave" stuff, there was plenty of "Analog-style" SF out there.
--
We are geeks. Resistance is voltage over current.
Don Kuenz
2017-03-05 19:15:33 UTC
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Post by Greg Goss
Post by C. E. Gee
Post by James Nicoll
Young People Read Old SFF: When It Changed by Joanna Russ
http://youngpeoplereadoldsff.com/story/when-it-changed
--
My reviews can be found at http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/
My Livejournal at http://www.livejournal.com/users/james_nicoll
My patreon is at https://www.patreon.com/jamesdnicoll
I noticed SF changing when Heinlein's "Stranger in a Strange Land" was published.
When I read the thing I thought to myself "Heinlein's really gone downhill!"
If I remember correctly this was in 1962 or so.
From that time all the way thru the "hippy-dippy era" SF was terrible.
But nowadays things seem to have gotten back on course.
Niven got his start right about then. The seventies had the best of
the Niven/Pournell novels.
I came of age in the late sixties / early seventies, and while I hated
the "new wave" stuff, there was plenty of "Analog-style" SF out there.
Niven's mostly new to me, except for _Lucifer's Hammer_, _Ringworld_,
and "The Theory and Practice of Time Travel." My plan this month is to
read selected short stories from my recent acquisition of a used "Larry
Niven's Universe" Boxed Set.

FWIW the Boxed Set doesn't contain _Ringword_, so perhaps it's only a
"partial Boxed Set." _Time Machines_ (Nahin) cites over a dozen Niven
shorts and those will be the Nivens read by me this month.

With any luck, _Mortal Fear_ (Cook) can also be squeezed in this month.
Unfortunately _Physics of the Impossible_ (Kaku) may have to wait until
next month.

Thank you,

--
Don Kuenz KB7RPU
Chrysi Cat
2017-03-05 21:18:31 UTC
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Post by Don Kuenz
Post by Greg Goss
Post by C. E. Gee
Post by James Nicoll
Young People Read Old SFF: When It Changed by Joanna Russ
http://youngpeoplereadoldsff.com/story/when-it-changed
--
My reviews can be found at http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/
My Livejournal at http://www.livejournal.com/users/james_nicoll
My patreon is at https://www.patreon.com/jamesdnicoll
I noticed SF changing when Heinlein's "Stranger in a Strange Land" was published.
When I read the thing I thought to myself "Heinlein's really gone downhill!"
If I remember correctly this was in 1962 or so.
From that time all the way thru the "hippy-dippy era" SF was terrible.
But nowadays things seem to have gotten back on course.
Niven got his start right about then. The seventies had the best of
the Niven/Pournell novels.
I came of age in the late sixties / early seventies, and while I hated
the "new wave" stuff, there was plenty of "Analog-style" SF out there.
Niven's mostly new to me, except for _Lucifer's Hammer_, _Ringworld_,
and "The Theory and Practice of Time Travel." My plan this month is to
read selected short stories from my recent acquisition of a used "Larry
Niven's Universe" Boxed Set.
FWIW the Boxed Set doesn't contain _Ringword_, so perhaps it's only a
"partial Boxed Set." _Time Machines_ (Nahin) cites over a dozen Niven
shorts and those will be the Nivens read by me this month.
With any luck, _Mortal Fear_ (Cook) can also be squeezed in this month.
Unfortunately _Physics of the Impossible_ (Kaku) may have to wait until
next month.
Thank you,
--
Don Kuenz KB7RPU
Ooh. *Mortal Fear* creeped me out even in RD Condensed Book form, back
in 1990 (it was one half of a sample of the product, sent out to every
RD subscriber--which my parents were. The other half was Jack Higgins'
*Cold Harbor*, which while obvs not a genre book, was a very good
historical thriller).
--
Chrysi Cat
1/2 anthrocat, nearly 1/2 anthrofox, all magical
Transgoddess, quick to anger
Call me Chrysi or call me Kat, I'll respond to either!
Don Kuenz
2017-03-06 01:16:53 UTC
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Post by Chrysi Cat
Post by Don Kuenz
Post by Greg Goss
Post by C. E. Gee
Post by James Nicoll
Young People Read Old SFF: When It Changed by Joanna Russ
http://youngpeoplereadoldsff.com/story/when-it-changed
--
My reviews can be found at http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/
My Livejournal at http://www.livejournal.com/users/james_nicoll
My patreon is at https://www.patreon.com/jamesdnicoll
I noticed SF changing when Heinlein's "Stranger in a Strange Land" was published.
When I read the thing I thought to myself "Heinlein's really gone downhill!"
If I remember correctly this was in 1962 or so.
From that time all the way thru the "hippy-dippy era" SF was terrible.
But nowadays things seem to have gotten back on course.
Niven got his start right about then. The seventies had the best of
the Niven/Pournell novels.
I came of age in the late sixties / early seventies, and while I hated
the "new wave" stuff, there was plenty of "Analog-style" SF out there.
Niven's mostly new to me, except for _Lucifer's Hammer_, _Ringworld_,
and "The Theory and Practice of Time Travel." My plan this month is to
read selected short stories from my recent acquisition of a used "Larry
Niven's Universe" Boxed Set.
FWIW the Boxed Set doesn't contain _Ringword_, so perhaps it's only a
"partial Boxed Set." _Time Machines_ (Nahin) cites over a dozen Niven
shorts and those will be the Nivens read by me this month.
With any luck, _Mortal Fear_ (Cook) can also be squeezed in this month.
Unfortunately _Physics of the Impossible_ (Kaku) may have to wait until
next month.
Ooh. *Mortal Fear* creeped me out even in RD Condensed Book form, back
in 1990 (it was one half of a sample of the product, sent out to every
RD subscriber--which my parents were. The other half was Jack Higgins'
*Cold Harbor*, which while obvs not a genre book, was a very good
historical thriller).
Cook's so brilliant that he almost always pushes my "mental envelope." A
Cook read typically requires _Dorland's Illustrated Medical Dictionary_
open at one elbow and _Atlas of Human Anatomy_ (Netter) open at the
other. :)

Judging by _Transition_, Ian Banks' vocabulary is also impressive. It'd
be great to have a mental dictionary of words at your instantaneous
disposal.

Thank you,

--
Don Kuenz KB7RPU
Greg Goss
2017-03-05 21:49:36 UTC
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Post by Don Kuenz
Post by Greg Goss
Post by C. E. Gee
If I remember correctly this was in 1962 or so.
From that time all the way thru the "hippy-dippy era" SF was terrible.
Niven got his start right about then. The seventies had the best of
the Niven/Pournell novels.
I came of age in the late sixties / early seventies, and while I hated
the "new wave" stuff, there was plenty of "Analog-style" SF out there.
Niven's mostly new to me, except for _Lucifer's Hammer_, _Ringworld_,
and "The Theory and Practice of Time Travel." My plan this month is to
read selected short stories from my recent acquisition of a used "Larry
Niven's Universe" Boxed Set.
FWIW the Boxed Set doesn't contain _Ringword_, so perhaps it's only a
"partial Boxed Set." _Time Machines_ (Nahin) cites over a dozen Niven
shorts and those will be the Nivens read by me this month.
I categorize Ringworld as an "Odyssey" - the characters have an excuse
to travel strange places and see strange things, but there are no "big
events" other than whatever framing event brought them to that place.

I prefer more plot-driven books like the second Ringworld book.
Everyone but me hated the third Ringworld book. I liked it, but it
pretty much needed book 4 for a proper conclusion.

Much later in your Niven reading, you can read the "Ringworld Prequel"
books, all titled [something or other] of Worlds. The charm of these
stories is how they fit into all the other Known Space stories over
the years -- so you need to have already read the canonical version of
the events reflected here.

The Niven/Pournelle books from the Seventies are among my favourite
books. You've read "Hammer". The fascinating thing about Hammer is
that it was originally outlined as an Alien Invasion book, but the
publisher asked them to leave out the aliens. The original outline
was eventually written as "Footfall" and it's interesting to see
character commonalities between them.

The Niven shorts are wonderful - I would say to start with the Neutron
Star collection.
--
We are geeks. Resistance is voltage over current.
Don Kuenz
2017-03-06 02:35:03 UTC
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Post by Greg Goss
Post by Don Kuenz
Post by Greg Goss
Post by C. E. Gee
If I remember correctly this was in 1962 or so.
From that time all the way thru the "hippy-dippy era" SF was terrible.
Niven got his start right about then. The seventies had the best of
the Niven/Pournell novels.
I came of age in the late sixties / early seventies, and while I hated
the "new wave" stuff, there was plenty of "Analog-style" SF out there.
Niven's mostly new to me, except for _Lucifer's Hammer_, _Ringworld_,
and "The Theory and Practice of Time Travel." My plan this month is to
read selected short stories from my recent acquisition of a used "Larry
Niven's Universe" Boxed Set.
FWIW the Boxed Set doesn't contain _Ringword_, so perhaps it's only a
"partial Boxed Set." _Time Machines_ (Nahin) cites over a dozen Niven
shorts and those will be the Nivens read by me this month.
I categorize Ringworld as an "Odyssey" - the characters have an excuse
to travel strange places and see strange things, but there are no "big
events" other than whatever framing event brought them to that place.
I prefer more plot-driven books like the second Ringworld book.
Everyone but me hated the third Ringworld book. I liked it, but it
pretty much needed book 4 for a proper conclusion.
Much later in your Niven reading, you can read the "Ringworld Prequel"
books, all titled [something or other] of Worlds. The charm of these
stories is how they fit into all the other Known Space stories over
the years -- so you need to have already read the canonical version of
the events reflected here.
The Niven/Pournelle books from the Seventies are among my favourite
books. You've read "Hammer". The fascinating thing about Hammer is
that it was originally outlined as an Alien Invasion book, but the
publisher asked them to leave out the aliens. The original outline
was eventually written as "Footfall" and it's interesting to see
character commonalities between them.
The Niven shorts are wonderful - I would say to start with the Neutron
Star collection.
My used boxed set does not contain a Neutron Star collection. Instead it
contains:

A World Out of Time
All the Myriad Ways
Convergent Series
Tales of Known Space
A Hole in Space
A Gift From Earth
Protector
World of Ptavvs
The Long Arm of Gil Hamilton

Fortunately the pulp collection at archive.org becomes more complete
with each passing day. https://archive.org/details/pulpmagazinearchive
"Neutron Star" appears in the October 1966 edition of _If_, which is
available at https://archive.org/details/1966-10_IF .

"Singularities Make Me Nervous" needs to be finished by me before
"Neutron Star" can commence. Something about the "Singularities" audio
book makes it hard for me to follow the story. (Usually an audio book
works for me.)

Thank you,

--
Don Kuenz KB7RPU
Greg Goss
2017-03-06 06:33:01 UTC
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Post by Don Kuenz
Post by Greg Goss
The Niven shorts are wonderful - I would say to start with the Neutron
Star collection.
My used boxed set does not contain a Neutron Star collection. Instead it
A World Out of Time
This part of his "The State" series. The State described in the first
story is part of the deep background of The Integral Trees / The Smoke
Ring (one oversized novel split into two books.)
Post by Don Kuenz
All the Myriad Ways
A collection of shorts unrelated to his other works. I liked the
title story, but don't remember the rest of them.
Post by Don Kuenz
Convergent Series
I don't remember any of what's in that one.
Post by Don Kuenz
Tales of Known Spaceft
Known Space is the setting for most of Niven's stories. Gil The Arm
and Bey Shaeffer have their own books. This is most of the rest of
the shorts.
Post by Don Kuenz
A Hole in Space
I don't remember thisone
Post by Don Kuenz
A Gift From Earth
An off-to-one-side story early in his Known Space series. It can be
read in any order.
Post by Don Kuenz
Protector
One of the better early Nivens. It sets up the background for the
second Ringworld novel and two of the Ringworld Prequel novels. It
shows us the ARM that's a key element in many of the early Known Space
stories. Lucas Garner from this story is a minor player in several
later stories.
Post by Don Kuenz
World of Ptavvs
This is set just slightly earlier than Protector. It gives us firther
info about the early interstellar colonization period, and sets up the
very-deep background for galactic pre-history. This story never
really "gelled" for me and I haven't re-read it in several decades.
Post by Don Kuenz
The Long Arm of Gil Hamilton
This collection gives us more of Niven's 22nd century,and the early
ARM days. "ARM" is a pun here - it's a psionic "skill" of Hamilton
and the name of the police force he joins.
Post by Don Kuenz
Fortunately the pulp collection at archive.org becomes more complete
with each passing day. https://archive.org/details/pulpmagazinearchive
"Neutron Star" appears in the October 1966 edition of _If_, which is
available at https://archive.org/details/1966-10_IF .
"Singularities Make Me Nervous" needs to be finished by me before
"Neutron Star" can commence. Something about the "Singularities" audio
book makes it hard for me to follow the story. (Usually an audio book
works for me.)
I can't follow stories read to me. I have to be the reader.

The Known Space stories in that set are largely 22nd century era. I
like the later stories from the 27th century and beyond.

The timeline shown on
http://www.chronology.org/noframes/niven/timeline.html is interesting,
but it has spoilers for a fair number of the stories. I have read
very few of the stories described there from the Man-Kzin wars period.
There is a bibliography of the Known Space books at the bottom.
--
We are geeks. Resistance is voltage over current.
James Nicoll
2017-03-06 15:18:26 UTC
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Post by Greg Goss
The Niven shorts are wonderful - I would say to start with the Neutron
Star collection.
Interesting anecdote I came across re Niven books: a bookseller who
asserted the rate at which readers came back asking for more Niven
was significantly higher if their first Niven was Neutron Star.

I would say read the Ballantine/Del Rey collections from Olden Times
of Old Long Ago and then stop. The Tor collections overlap a lot
with the old collections, plus they are padded out with unnecessary
book excerpts to conceal the fact Niven's writing pace has falled
off dramatically.
--
My reviews can be found at http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/
My Livejournal at http://www.livejournal.com/users/james_nicoll
My patreon is at https://www.patreon.com/jamesdnicoll
Don Kuenz
2017-03-07 01:41:06 UTC
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Post by James Nicoll
Post by Greg Goss
The Niven shorts are wonderful - I would say to start with the Neutron
Star collection.
Interesting anecdote I came across re Niven books: a bookseller who
asserted the rate at which readers came back asking for more Niven
was significantly higher if their first Niven was Neutron Star.
I would say read the Ballantine/Del Rey collections from Olden Times
of Old Long Ago and then stop. The Tor collections overlap a lot
with the old collections, plus they are padded out with unnecessary
book excerpts to conceal the fact Niven's writing pace has falled
off dramatically.
That sounds like good advice. Fortunately my used boxed set includes
only Del Reys and Ballantines. A used _Neutron Star_ mmpb is now on
order. :)

Thank you,

--
Don Kuenz KB7RPU
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