Discussion:
Societies of superhumans
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The Zygon
2018-03-23 07:15:03 UTC
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The idea of the superman pervades science fiction. But in most of the stories I have read, the superhumans are evil in some way and need to be destroyed. I have read very few in which all humans have become superhuman, compared to humanity of today. I am interested in hearing about stories which tackle this problem. That is, how to write a good story where all humans are superhuman, and so the story is not about the clash between the ordinary humans and superhumans.

Maybe I should add that sometimes the clash set to some remove. The superhumans have become separated from the main branch of humanity, and the clash is between the main branch and separated superhumans.
Peter Trei
2018-03-23 13:43:47 UTC
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On Friday, March 23, 2018 at 3:15:06 AM UTC-4, The Zygon wrote:
> The idea of the superman pervades science fiction. But in most of the stories I have read, the superhumans are evil in some way and need to be destroyed. I have read very few in which all humans have become superhuman, compared to humanity of today. I am interested in hearing about stories which tackle this problem. That is, how to write a good story where all humans are superhuman, and so the story is not about the clash between the ordinary humans and superhumans.
>
> Maybe I should add that sometimes the clash set to some remove. The superhumans have become separated from the main branch of humanity, and the clash is between the main branch and separated superhumans.

https://imgur.com/gallery/TKU6vPE (SFW).

There have been a number of stories which have every person having some talent
or power - Piers Anthony's 'Xanth' series, for example. In comics, there's "Normalman", and in MMORPGs "City of Heroes".

Its difficult to imagine a stable society where people had random and different
superpowers.

OTOH, you could argue that compared to the rest of the animal kingdom, humans
are *already* superpowered. Quite aside from the obvious physical traits
(long distance endurance, weaponized throwing), we've used our superior
intellect to equip ourselves with the ability to out fight, out run, and out
compete every other creature on Earth, and to do so in every surface habitat.

pt
Peter Trei
2018-03-23 14:02:50 UTC
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On Friday, March 23, 2018 at 9:43:50 AM UTC-4, Peter Trei wrote:
> On Friday, March 23, 2018 at 3:15:06 AM UTC-4, The Zygon wrote:
> > The idea of the superman pervades science fiction. But in most of the stories I have read, the superhumans are evil in some way and need to be destroyed. I have read very few in which all humans have become superhuman, compared to humanity of today. I am interested in hearing about stories which tackle this problem. That is, how to write a good story where all humans are superhuman, and so the story is not about the clash between the ordinary humans and superhumans.
> >
> > Maybe I should add that sometimes the clash set to some remove. The superhumans have become separated from the main branch of humanity, and the clash is between the main branch and separated superhumans.
>
> https://imgur.com/gallery/TKU6vPE (SFW).
>
> There have been a number of stories which have every person having some talent
> or power - Piers Anthony's 'Xanth' series, for example. In comics, there's "Normalman", and in MMORPGs "City of Heroes".
>
> Its difficult to imagine a stable society where people had random and different
> superpowers.
>
> OTOH, you could argue that compared to the rest of the animal kingdom, humans
> are *already* superpowered. Quite aside from the obvious physical traits
> (long distance endurance, weaponized throwing), we've used our superior
> intellect to equip ourselves with the ability to out fight, out run, and out
> compete every other creature on Earth, and to do so in every surface habitat.
>
> pt

Crap. Posted wrong link.

https://i.imgur.com/TrtPr.jpg (still SFW)

pt
Dorothy J Heydt
2018-03-23 14:29:29 UTC
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In article <8bbfda15-c729-4103-bda8-***@googlegroups.com>,
Peter Trei <***@gmail.com> wrote:
>On Friday, March 23, 2018 at 9:43:50 AM UTC-4, Peter Trei wrote:
>> On Friday, March 23, 2018 at 3:15:06 AM UTC-4, The Zygon wrote:
>> > The idea of the superman pervades science fiction. But in most of
>the stories I have read, the superhumans are evil in some way and need
>to be destroyed. I have read very few in which all humans have become
>superhuman, compared to humanity of today. I am interested in hearing
>about stories which tackle this problem. That is, how to write a good
>story where all humans are superhuman, and so the story is not about the
>clash between the ordinary humans and superhumans.
>> >
>> > Maybe I should add that sometimes the clash set to some remove. The
>superhumans have become separated from the main branch of humanity, and
>the clash is between the main branch and separated superhumans.
>>
>> https://imgur.com/gallery/TKU6vPE (SFW).
>>
>> There have been a number of stories which have every person having some talent
>> or power - Piers Anthony's 'Xanth' series, for example. In comics,
>there's "Normalman", and in MMORPGs "City of Heroes".
>>
>> Its difficult to imagine a stable society where people had random and
>different
>> superpowers.
>>
>> OTOH, you could argue that compared to the rest of the animal kingdom, humans
>> are *already* superpowered. Quite aside from the obvious physical traits
>> (long distance endurance, weaponized throwing), we've used our superior
>> intellect to equip ourselves with the ability to out fight, out run, and out
>> compete every other creature on Earth, and to do so in every surface habitat.
>>
>> pt
>
>Crap. Posted wrong link.
>
>https://i.imgur.com/TrtPr.jpg (still SFW)

And yet, both Mr. Rogers and Sesame Street spent decades telling
every little kid that s/he was special. Because the little kids
were not yet expected to know the word "unique."

--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Robert Carnegie
2018-03-24 04:56:11 UTC
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On Friday, 23 March 2018 14:02:54 UTC, Peter Trei wrote:
> On Friday, March 23, 2018 at 9:43:50 AM UTC-4, Peter Trei wrote:
> > On Friday, March 23, 2018 at 3:15:06 AM UTC-4, The Zygon wrote:
> > > The idea of the superman pervades science fiction. But in most of the stories I have read, the superhumans are evil in some way and need to be destroyed. I have read very few in which all humans have become superhuman, compared to humanity of today. I am interested in hearing about stories which tackle this problem. That is, how to write a good story where all humans are superhuman, and so the story is not about the clash between the ordinary humans and superhumans.
> > >
> > > Maybe I should add that sometimes the clash set to some remove. The superhumans have become separated from the main branch of humanity, and the clash is between the main branch and separated superhumans.
> >
> > https://imgur.com/gallery/TKU6vPE (SFW).
> >
> > There have been a number of stories which have every person having some talent
> > or power - Piers Anthony's 'Xanth' series, for example. In comics, there's "Normalman", and in MMORPGs "City of Heroes".
> >
> > Its difficult to imagine a stable society where people had random and different
> > superpowers.
> >
> > OTOH, you could argue that compared to the rest of the animal kingdom, humans
> > are *already* superpowered. Quite aside from the obvious physical traits
> > (long distance endurance, weaponized throwing), we've used our superior
> > intellect to equip ourselves with the ability to out fight, out run, and out
> > compete every other creature on Earth, and to do so in every surface habitat.
> >
> > pt
>
> Crap. Posted wrong link.
>
> https://i.imgur.com/TrtPr.jpg (still SFW)
>
> pt

"There lived a king, as I've been told" - Gilbert and Sullivan.
Doesn't really convince me that for everyone to be rich wouldn't
be nice, but that's unreliable narrators for you.

Doctor Who claimed to have not met anyone who wasn't important,
but after the episode I just watched where he met "Donna Noble"
(Catherine Tate) and told her that she wasn't important.
Granted, she turned out to be colossally important.

<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Top_10_%28comics%29>: city of
supermen.

Monty Python's "Bicycle Repairman", which I suspect isn't
related at all to Bruce Sterling's.

Attilan, secret city of The Inhumans; come to think, most
of he locations in this web page
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Features_of_the_Marvel_Universe>
are cities populated mainly by superhumans. Including New York! :-)

(And in some future stories the normal humans have indeed died out,
and the superheroes just carry on...)
David Goldfarb
2018-03-24 18:08:16 UTC
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In article <6b801c63-3f38-40a2-8089-***@googlegroups.com>,
Robert Carnegie <***@excite.com> wrote:
>Doctor Who claimed to have not met anyone who wasn't important,
>but after the episode I just watched where he met "Donna Noble"
>(Catherine Tate) and told her that she wasn't important.
>Granted, she turned out to be colossally important.

There's an episode a little further on, where the Doctor visits
Pompeii shortly before the eruption. The eruption itself is a
"fixed point in time" and can't be averted: but Donna convinces
the Doctor to rescue one family. "Save *somebody*."

Now, "I've never met anyone who wasn't important" is a lovely,
humanist sentiment. And so is "Save *somebody*". But...they're
in direct conflict. The only way it's possible to save that
family from dying is if they ARE in fact unimportant -- if it
really doesn't matter whether they live or die. Otherwise you've
just wrecked history.

Yeah, I know: I'm overthinking it, it's just a show, I should
really just relax.

--
David Goldfarb |"Feeling smug about one's opinions is the very
***@gmail.com | lifeblood of the Net."
***@ocf.berkeley.edu | -- Dawn Friedman
Robert Carnegie
2018-03-24 21:49:18 UTC
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On Saturday, 24 March 2018 18:30:05 UTC, David Goldfarb wrote:
> In article <6b801c63-3f38-40a2-8089-***@googlegroups.com>,
> Robert Carnegie <***@excite.com> wrote:
> >Doctor Who claimed to have not met anyone who wasn't important,
> >but after the episode I just watched where he met "Donna Noble"
> >(Catherine Tate) and told her that she wasn't important.
> >Granted, she turned out to be colossally important.
>
> There's an episode a little further on, where the Doctor visits
> Pompeii shortly before the eruption. The eruption itself is a
> "fixed point in time" and can't be averted: but Donna convinces
> the Doctor to rescue one family. "Save *somebody*."
>
> Now, "I've never met anyone who wasn't important" is a lovely,
> humanist sentiment. And so is "Save *somebody*". But...they're
> in direct conflict. The only way it's possible to save that
> family from dying is if they ARE in fact unimportant -- if it
> really doesn't matter whether they live or die. Otherwise you've
> just wrecked history.
>
> Yeah, I know: I'm overthinking it, it's just a show, I should
> really just relax.

Perhaps someone's life changing the course of history is not
the only way to be important - in real life as well as in
the show.

Is an alien allowed to kill people that are unimportant?
No. The Doctor stops it. Although actually, the alien usually
gets to kill at least one person, often before the titles come,
to establish that it is a bad alien. So this may be hypocrisy.
Dorothy J Heydt
2018-03-23 14:27:20 UTC
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In article <1a3e449f-0df7-4635-9af1-***@googlegroups.com>,
Peter Trei <***@gmail.com> wrote:
>On Friday, March 23, 2018 at 3:15:06 AM UTC-4, The Zygon wrote:
>> The idea of the superman pervades science fiction. But in most of the
>stories I have read, the superhumans are evil in some way and need to be
>destroyed. I have read very few in which all humans have become
>superhuman, compared to humanity of today. I am interested in hearing
>about stories which tackle this problem. That is, how to write a good
>story where all humans are superhuman, and so the story is not about the
>clash between the ordinary humans and superhumans.
>>
>> Maybe I should add that sometimes the clash set to some remove. The
>superhumans have become separated from the main branch of humanity, and
>the clash is between the main branch and separated superhumans.
>
>https://imgur.com/gallery/TKU6vPE (SFW).
>
>There have been a number of stories which have every person having some talent
>or power - Piers Anthony's 'Xanth' series, for example. In comics,
>there's "Normalman", and in MMORPGs "City of Heroes".
>
>Its difficult to imagine a stable society where people had random and different
>superpowers.
>
>OTOH, you could argue that compared to the rest of the animal kingdom, humans
>are *already* superpowered. Quite aside from the obvious physical traits
>(long distance endurance, weaponized throwing), we've used our superior
>intellect to equip ourselves with the ability to out fight, out run, and out
>compete every other creature on Earth, and to do so in every surface habitat.

This, e.g.

http://teal-deer.tumblr.com/post/57910877901/siderealsandman-friendlytroll-astrakiseki?utm_content=bufferb15db&utm_source=buffer&utm_medium=twitter&utm_campaign=Buffer

Note: this used to be a nice, readable post, and then somebody
(the site owner?) decided it needed Fancy Formatting. You can
still read it if you work at it.

--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Johnny1A
2018-03-27 04:41:27 UTC
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On Friday, March 23, 2018 at 8:43:50 AM UTC-5, Peter Trei wrote:
> On Friday, March 23, 2018 at 3:15:06 AM UTC-4, The Zygon wrote:

>
> OTOH, you could argue that compared to the rest of the animal kingdom, humans
> are *already* superpowered. Quite aside from the obvious physical traits
> (long distance endurance, weaponized throwing), we've used our superior
> intellect to equip ourselves with the ability to out fight, out run, and out
> compete every other creature on Earth, and to do so in every surface habitat.
>
> pt

Now take a look at what the equation looks like, from the POV of the other animal species.

Which is why so many stories on this line tend to end being about the human vs. superhuman _conflict_. It's very difficult to create a believable setting of peaceful coexistence between two different species that want to occupy the same niche when one is far more able than the other.
The Zygon
2018-03-28 04:49:20 UTC
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On Tuesday, March 27, 2018 at 12:41:29 AM UTC-4, Johnny1A wrote:
> On Friday, March 23, 2018 at 8:43:50 AM UTC-5, Peter Trei wrote:
> > On Friday, March 23, 2018 at 3:15:06 AM UTC-4, The Zygon wrote:
>
> >
> > OTOH, you could argue that compared to the rest of the animal kingdom, humans
> > are *already* superpowered. Quite aside from the obvious physical traits
> > (long distance endurance, weaponized throwing), we've used our superior
> > intellect to equip ourselves with the ability to out fight, out run, and out
> > compete every other creature on Earth, and to do so in every surface habitat.
> >
> > pt
>
> Now take a look at what the equation looks like, from the POV of the other animal species.
>
> Which is why so many stories on this line tend to end being about the human vs. superhuman _conflict_. It's very difficult to create a believable setting of peaceful coexistence between two different species that want to occupy the same niche when one is far more able than the other.

I can imagine many stories where the superhuman humans struggle against ET's. I love those stories. _The Monster_, a short by A E Van Vogt is my favorite short story, even though I would never hold it up as a great short story.
Dorothy J Heydt
2018-03-23 13:37:13 UTC
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In article <35f964bd-b204-4342-9da2-***@googlegroups.com>,
The Zygon <***@gmail.com> wrote:
>The idea of the superman pervades science fiction. But in most of the
>stories I have read, the superhumans are evil in some way and need to be
>destroyed. I have read very few in which all humans have become
>superhuman, compared to humanity of today. I am interested in hearing
>about stories which tackle this problem. That is, how to write a good
>story where all humans are superhuman, and so the story is not about the
>clash between the ordinary humans and superhumans.

>Maybe I should add that sometimes the clash set to some remove. The
>superhumans have become separated from the main branch of humanity, and
>the clash is between the main branch and separated superhumans.

Well, Anderson's _Brain Wave_, in which the Solar System drifts
out of a cloud of handwavium and everybody becomes much more
intelligent. Some people can't take it.

Van Vogt's _Slan,_ of course. They're not superhumans, but they
are telepaths, which gives everybody else the creeps.

Ditto Padgett's _Mutant_, whose Baldies have the same problem.

Heinlein's _Methuselah's Children_ comes to mind, in which the
Howard Families have to leave Earth because of conflict with
normals ... but they're not superhumans, with the exception maybe
of Andrew Libby. They're just longaevi.

This is just off the top of my head at 6:30 in the morning. Note
also that these are all old stories. Others will be able to
provide some newer ones.

--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
D B Davis
2018-03-23 18:45:07 UTC
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Dorothy J Heydt <***@kithrup.com> wrote:
> In article <35f964bd-b204-4342-9da2-***@googlegroups.com>,
> The Zygon <***@gmail.com> wrote:
>>The idea of the superman pervades science fiction. But in most of the
>>stories I have read, the superhumans are evil in some way and need to be
>>destroyed. I have read very few in which all humans have become
>>superhuman, compared to humanity of today. I am interested in hearing
>>about stories which tackle this problem. That is, how to write a good
>>story where all humans are superhuman, and so the story is not about the
>>clash between the ordinary humans and superhumans.
>
>>Maybe I should add that sometimes the clash set to some remove. The
>>superhumans have become separated from the main branch of humanity, and
>>the clash is between the main branch and separated superhumans.
>
> Well, Anderson's _Brain Wave_, in which the Solar System drifts
> out of a cloud of handwavium and everybody becomes much more
> intelligent. Some people can't take it.
>
> Van Vogt's _Slan,_ of course. They're not superhumans, but they
> are telepaths, which gives everybody else the creeps.
>
> Ditto Padgett's _Mutant_, whose Baldies have the same problem.
>
> Heinlein's _Methuselah's Children_ comes to mind, in which the
> Howard Families have to leave Earth because of conflict with
> normals ... but they're not superhumans, with the exception maybe
> of Andrew Libby. They're just longaevi.
>
> This is just off the top of my head at 6:30 in the morning. Note
> also that these are all old stories. Others will be able to
> provide some newer ones.
>

Re: _Brain Wave_. Shades of Fred Hoyle's panspermia. Most people who
give a hoot in hell about Hoyle like that theory. It's not my favorite
theory. Hoyle's steady state universe theory is my favorite theory
because it explains galactic blue shifts. Most people who like the
panspermia theory don't like the steady state theory. So, that makes me
out of step with most people who give a hoot in hell about Hoyle.
Re: _Slan_. Do the Dreeges of "Asylum" (Van Vogt) count? If so, then
surely _Twilight_ (Meyers) along with most of Unnatural Quarter stomping
grounds of Dan Shamble, Zombie P.I.
Do mutants count? If so, there's "The Golden Man" (PKD), _Flow My
Tears the Policeman Said_ (PKD) and _Jumper_ (Gould).
People with six fingers can enter accelerated time at their pleasure
in "Six Fingers of Time" (Lafferty). "Big Ancestor" (Wallace) contains
a mix of humans in different stages of evolution who more-or-less get
along.

Thank you,

--
Don
Dimensional Traveler
2018-03-23 20:00:09 UTC
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On 3/23/2018 11:45 AM, D B Davis wrote:
> Dorothy J Heydt <***@kithrup.com> wrote:
>>
>> This is just off the top of my head at 6:30 in the morning. Note
>> also that these are all old stories. Others will be able to
>> provide some newer ones.
>>
>
> Re: _Brain Wave_. Shades of Fred Hoyle's panspermia. Most people who
> give a hoot in hell about Hoyle like that theory. It's not my favorite
> theory. Hoyle's steady state universe theory is my favorite theory
> because it explains galactic blue shifts.

Did you mean galactic red shifts?


--
Inquiring minds want to know while minds with a self-preservation
instinct are running screaming.
Michael F. Stemper
2018-03-23 20:03:01 UTC
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On 2018-03-23 13:45, D B Davis wrote:
> Dorothy J Heydt <***@kithrup.com> wrote:

>> Well, Anderson's _Brain Wave_, in which the Solar System drifts
>> out of a cloud of handwavium and everybody becomes much more
>> intelligent. Some people can't take it.

> Re: _Brain Wave_. Shades of Fred Hoyle's panspermia.

Excuse me? I've read _Brain Wave_ multiple times, and can't think of
anything in it that hints at panspermia.

In case you haven't had the opportunity, here's a little expansion of
what Dorothy said:

In the story, there is some field emanating from the center of the
galaxy (that's her "cloud of handwavium") that suppresses mental
activity. (If you've read Vinge's _A Fire Upon the Deep_, think of
the Zones of Thought. If you haven't, I highly recommend that you do.)

As Sol was orbiting around the galaxy, it passed into this field about
65 Myr back. Thus, the extinction of the dinosaurs, who'd been top dog
for upwards of 100 Myr. But, Mammalia now had a wide-open ecosystem to
fill, and expanded enthusiastically into all of those niches.

Intelligence developed -- under the effects of that field. When Sol
finally exited that field, it was as if humanity (and apes, and farm
animals, and so on) had been running metaphorical marathons while
carrying full packs. Field goes away and bang! everybody (and
everything) is suddenly able to think much more effectively.

Nothing to do with panspermia, as far as I can tell.

> Hoyle's steady state universe theory is my favorite theory
> because it explains galactic blue shifts.

I assume that you're referring to the fact that for "nearby"
galaxies, their peculiar velocity[1] is large compared to
their velocity due to the Hubble flow. This effect is not
really observed further away than the Virgo cluster.[2]

But, the expansion of the universe is supported by more than
galactic redshift. For instance, there's the cosmic microwave
background.[3] This was the final nail in Steady State's coffin,
since Hot Big Bang predicted its existence, while Steady State
couldn't even explain it.

There's also the distributions of quasars and young galaxies.

The relative abundances of hydrogen and helium in the universe
(74% H, 26% He) are predicted by the Big Bang model as well.[4]
Without Big Bang nucleosynthesis, Hoyle spent much of the latter
part of his career trying to deduce a mechanism by which the
quarks or hydrogen atoms of continuous creation[5] could be turned
into an adequate supply of helium.

Of course, "steady state" doesn't mean "non-expanding", anyway.
Hoyle himself knew that the universe was expanding, which was
why he had to posit continuous creation to keep the universe
from changing as it expanded.

That having been said, the scene in Blish's _The Triumph of
Time_ where our intrepid band is in a position to observe the
"ping"s of hydrogen atoms popping into existence is still
pretty cool, even if it's based on a since-falsified theory.

[1] <http://astronomy.swin.edu.au/cosmos/P/Peculiar+Velocity>
[2]
<http://www.astro.cornell.edu/academics/courses/astro201/hubbles_law.htm>
[3] <https://wmap.gsfc.nasa.gov/universe/bb_tests_cmb.html>
[4] <http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/Astro/hydhel.html>
[5] <http://www.originsquest.org/objections-to-continuous-creation.html>

--
Michael F. Stemper
Why doesn't anybody care about apathy?
D B Davis
2018-03-23 21:19:12 UTC
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Michael F. Stemper <***@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 2018-03-23 13:45, D B Davis wrote:
>> Dorothy J Heydt <***@kithrup.com> wrote:
>
>>> Well, Anderson's _Brain Wave_, in which the Solar System drifts
>>> out of a cloud of handwavium and everybody becomes much more
>>> intelligent. Some people can't take it.
>
>> Re: _Brain Wave_. Shades of Fred Hoyle's panspermia.
>
> Excuse me? I've read _Brain Wave_ multiple times, and can't think of
> anything in it that hints at panspermia.
>
> In case you haven't had the opportunity, here's a little expansion of
> what Dorothy said:
>
> In the story, there is some field emanating from the center of the
> galaxy (that's her "cloud of handwavium") that suppresses mental
> activity. (If you've read Vinge's _A Fire Upon the Deep_, think of
> the Zones of Thought. If you haven't, I highly recommend that you do.)
>
> As Sol was orbiting around the galaxy, it passed into this field about
> 65 Myr back. Thus, the extinction of the dinosaurs, who'd been top dog
> for upwards of 100 Myr. But, Mammalia now had a wide-open ecosystem to
> fill, and expanded enthusiastically into all of those niches.
>
> Intelligence developed -- under the effects of that field. When Sol
> finally exited that field, it was as if humanity (and apes, and farm
> animals, and so on) had been running metaphorical marathons while
> carrying full packs. Field goes away and bang! everybody (and
> everything) is suddenly able to think much more effectively.
>
> Nothing to do with panspermia, as far as I can tell.
>
>> Hoyle's steady state universe theory is my favorite theory
>> because it explains galactic blue shifts.
>
> I assume that you're referring to the fact that for "nearby"
> galaxies, their peculiar velocity[1] is large compared to
> their velocity due to the Hubble flow. This effect is not
>
> But, the expansion of the universe is supported by more than
> galactic redshift. For instance, there's the cosmic microwave
> background.[3] This was the final nail in Steady State's coffin,
> since Hot Big Bang predicted its existence, while Steady State
> couldn't even explain it.
>
> There's also the distributions of quasars and young galaxies.
>
> The relative abundances of hydrogen and helium in the universe
> (74% H, 26% He) are predicted by the Big Bang model as well.[4]
> Without Big Bang nucleosynthesis, Hoyle spent much of the latter
> part of his career trying to deduce a mechanism by which the
> quarks or hydrogen atoms of continuous creation[5] could be turned
> into an adequate supply of helium.
>
> Of course, "steady state" doesn't mean "non-expanding", anyway.
> Hoyle himself knew that the universe was expanding, which was
> why he had to posit continuous creation to keep the universe
> from changing as it expanded.
>
> That having been said, the scene in Blish's _The Triumph of
> Time_ where our intrepid band is in a position to observe the
> "ping"s of hydrogen atoms popping into existence is still
> pretty cool, even if it's based on a since-falsified theory.
>
> [1] <http://astronomy.swin.edu.au/cosmos/P/Peculiar+Velocity>
> [2]
> <http://www.astro.cornell.edu/academics/courses/astro201/hubbles_law.htm>
> [3] <https://wmap.gsfc.nasa.gov/universe/bb_tests_cmb.html>
> [4] <http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/Astro/hydhel.html>
> [5] <http://www.originsquest.org/objections-to-continuous-creation.html>
>

Isn't a cloud of microorganisms is central to panspermia? Among other
things, _The Black Cloud_ (Hoyle) leaves me with that impression.
Although _Brain Wave_ remains unread by me at present, a cloud of
handwavium seems similar to a cloud of microorganisms /to me/. YMMV and
obviously does.
"Galactic blue shifts" is my lingo for the galactic spin discrepancy
whereby the rims of galaxies rotate faster than the nucleus. After an
amusing apoplectic sputtering fit full of blue language Wikipedia
finally manages to spit out a fair description of the discrepancy. [1]

... The rotational/orbital speeds of galaxies/stars do not
follow the rules found in other orbital systems such as
stars/planets and planets/moons that have most of their
mass at the centre. Stars revolve around their galaxy's
centre at equal or increasing speed over a large range of
distances. In contrast, the orbital velocities of planets
in planetary systems and moons orbiting planets decline
with distance. In the latter cases, this reflects the
mass distributions within those systems. The mass
estimations for galaxies based on the light they emit
are far too low to explain the velocity observations.

The galaxy rotation problem is the discrepancy between
observed galaxy rotation curves and the theoretical
prediction, assuming a centrally dominated mass associated
with the observed luminous material. When mass profiles of
galaxies are calculated from the distribution of stars in
spirals and mass-to-light ratios in the stellar disks,
they do not match with the masses derived from the
observed rotation curves and the law of gravity. A
solution to this conundrum is to hypothesize the existence
of dark matter and to assume its distribution from the
galaxy's center out to its halo.

Though dark matter is by far the most accepted explanation
of the rotation problem, other proposals have been
offered with varying degrees of success. Of the possible
alternatives, the most notable is Modified Newtonian
Dynamics (MOND), which involves modifying the laws of
gravity.

Hoyle's steady state theory might also explain the phenomenon.
Except most people who give a hoot in hell about Hoyle flat out won't
hear of it.

Note.

1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galaxy_rotation_curve

Thank you,

--
Don
Dorothy J Heydt
2018-03-23 22:25:34 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
In article <***@crcomp.net>, D B Davis <***@crcomp.net> wrote:
>
>
>Isn't a cloud of microorganisms is central to panspermia? Among other
>things, _The Black Cloud_ (Hoyle) leaves me with that impression.
>Although _Brain Wave_ remains unread by me at present, a cloud of
>handwavium seems similar to a cloud of microorganisms /to me/. YMMV and
>obviously does.

From what I remember of _Brain Wave_, it wasn't a cloud of
microorganisms, but of Mysterious Galactic Force. Poul didn't
attempt to explain it; he was dealing with what happened as a
result of Earth getting out of it. Some people seized on their
expanded intelligence with glee; others hated it (one woman blew
some of her brains out, so as to go back to "normal").

Much later, I was trying to rewrite a chunk of fanfic that Astrid
Anderson and I had written in the sixties, in an attempt to make
it salable (which failed), and Hal had invented a spacedrive for
me, the "tachyone conversion drive." It converted normal matter
(aka "tardyons") into tachyons, which can only go *faster than*
light.

So Poul ran into Hal at a con or an SCA event or something, and
asked him to explain the tachyon drive. Hal said, "I'll explain
it as soon as you explain quantum microjump." And Poul said,
"Gotcha."

As I said, handwavium.

--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
D B Davis
2018-03-23 23:48:30 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Dorothy J Heydt <***@kithrup.com> wrote:
> In article <***@crcomp.net>, D B Davis <***@crcomp.net> wrote:
>>
>>
>>Isn't a cloud of microorganisms is central to panspermia? Among other
>>things, _The Black Cloud_ (Hoyle) leaves me with that impression.
>>Although _Brain Wave_ remains unread by me at present, a cloud of
>>handwavium seems similar to a cloud of microorganisms /to me/. YMMV and
>>obviously does.
>
> From what I remember of _Brain Wave_, it wasn't a cloud of
> microorganisms, but of Mysterious Galactic Force. Poul didn't
> attempt to explain it; he was dealing with what happened as a
> result of Earth getting out of it. Some people seized on their
> expanded intelligence with glee; others hated it (one woman blew
> some of her brains out, so as to go back to "normal").
>
> Much later, I was trying to rewrite a chunk of fanfic that Astrid
> Anderson and I had written in the sixties, in an attempt to make
> it salable (which failed), and Hal had invented a spacedrive for
> me, the "tachyone conversion drive." It converted normal matter
> (aka "tardyons") into tachyons, which can only go *faster than*
> light.
>
> So Poul ran into Hal at a con or an SCA event or something, and
> asked him to explain the tachyon drive. Hal said, "I'll explain
> it as soon as you explain quantum microjump." And Poul said,
> "Gotcha."
>
> As I said, handwavium.
>

Michael's description of the premise behind the Anderson's excellent. It
makes me want to read the Anderson. Unfortunately, there's too many
other stories at the front of my line.
Allow me to belatedly note that Michael and you bring a far more
comprehensive understanding of the flaws in my association to the table
beings both of you actually read _Brain Wave_. OTOH, in my simple world,
one interstellar cloud pretty much looks the same as the next, even if
one of them's not really a cloud but actually a stationary field.
My own knowledge of "galactic blue shift" is just about exhausted at
this point. Someone once said in passing that steady state might explain
it.
And, it really goes without saying that the sky map research done by
people such as John D Kraus is legendary. That said, maybe, just maybe,
something was overlooked in Hoyle's steady state theory.

Thank you,

--
Don
The Zygon
2018-03-24 02:37:26 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On Friday, March 23, 2018 at 4:03:13 PM UTC-4, Michael F. Stemper wrote:
> On 2018-03-23 13:45, D B Davis wrote:
> > Dorothy J Heydt <***@kithrup.com> wrote:
>
> >> Well, Anderson's _Brain Wave_, in which the Solar System drifts
> >> out of a cloud of handwavium and everybody becomes much more
> >> intelligent. Some people can't take it.
>
> > Re: _Brain Wave_. Shades of Fred Hoyle's panspermia.
>
> Excuse me? I've read _Brain Wave_ multiple times, and can't think of
> anything in it that hints at panspermia.
>
> In case you haven't had the opportunity, here's a little expansion of
> what Dorothy said:
>
> In the story, there is some field emanating from the center of the
> galaxy (that's her "cloud of handwavium") that suppresses mental
> activity. (If you've read Vinge's _A Fire Upon the Deep_, think of
> the Zones of Thought. If you haven't, I highly recommend that you do.)
>
> As Sol was orbiting around the galaxy, it passed into this field about
> 65 Myr back. Thus, the extinction of the dinosaurs, who'd been top dog
> for upwards of 100 Myr. But, Mammalia now had a wide-open ecosystem to
> fill, and expanded enthusiastically into all of those niches.
>
> Intelligence developed -- under the effects of that field. When Sol
> finally exited that field, it was as if humanity (and apes, and farm
> animals, and so on) had been running metaphorical marathons while
> carrying full packs. Field goes away and bang! everybody (and
> everything) is suddenly able to think much more effectively.
>
> Nothing to do with panspermia, as far as I can tell.
>
> > Hoyle's steady state universe theory is my favorite theory
> > because it explains galactic blue shifts.
>
> I assume that you're referring to the fact that for "nearby"
> galaxies, their peculiar velocity[1] is large compared to
> their velocity due to the Hubble flow. This effect is not
> really observed further away than the Virgo cluster.[2]
>
> But, the expansion of the universe is supported by more than
> galactic redshift. For instance, there's the cosmic microwave
> background.[3] This was the final nail in Steady State's coffin,
> since Hot Big Bang predicted its existence, while Steady State
> couldn't even explain it.
>
> There's also the distributions of quasars and young galaxies.
>
> The relative abundances of hydrogen and helium in the universe
> (74% H, 26% He) are predicted by the Big Bang model as well.[4]
> Without Big Bang nucleosynthesis, Hoyle spent much of the latter
> part of his career trying to deduce a mechanism by which the
> quarks or hydrogen atoms of continuous creation[5] could be turned
> into an adequate supply of helium.
>
> Of course, "steady state" doesn't mean "non-expanding", anyway.
> Hoyle himself knew that the universe was expanding, which was
> why he had to posit continuous creation to keep the universe
> from changing as it expanded.
>
> That having been said, the scene in Blish's _The Triumph of
> Time_ where our intrepid band is in a position to observe the
> "ping"s of hydrogen atoms popping into existence is still
> pretty cool, even if it's based on a since-falsified theory.
>
> [1] <http://astronomy.swin.edu.au/cosmos/P/Peculiar+Velocity>
> [2]
> <http://www.astro.cornell.edu/academics/courses/astro201/hubbles_law.htm>
> [3] <https://wmap.gsfc.nasa.gov/universe/bb_tests_cmb.html>
> [4] <http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/Astro/hydhel.html>
> [5] <http://www.originsquest.org/objections-to-continuous-creation.html>
>
> --
> Michael F. Stemper
> Why doesn't anybody care about apathy?

The field did not directly suppress intelligence. It reduced the speed of electromagnetic transmissions in vacuum to the to the 1c we know. Once earth moved out of the field, light reverted to its "normal" speed which is vastly higher. As a result all electronic and electro-chemical devices work much, much faster.
David Johnston
2018-03-24 02:43:36 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On 2018-03-23 8:37 PM, The Zygon wrote:
> On Friday, March 23, 2018 at 4:03:13 PM UTC-4, Michael F. Stemper wrote:
>> On 2018-03-23 13:45, D B Davis wrote:
>>> Dorothy J Heydt <***@kithrup.com> wrote:
>>
>>>> Well, Anderson's _Brain Wave_, in which the Solar System drifts
>>>> out of a cloud of handwavium and everybody becomes much more
>>>> intelligent. Some people can't take it.
>>
>>> Re: _Brain Wave_. Shades of Fred Hoyle's panspermia.
>>
>> Excuse me? I've read _Brain Wave_ multiple times, and can't think of
>> anything in it that hints at panspermia.
>>
>> In case you haven't had the opportunity, here's a little expansion of
>> what Dorothy said:
>>
>> In the story, there is some field emanating from the center of the
>> galaxy (that's her "cloud of handwavium") that suppresses mental
>> activity. (If you've read Vinge's _A Fire Upon the Deep_, think of
>> the Zones of Thought. If you haven't, I highly recommend that you do.)
>>
>> As Sol was orbiting around the galaxy, it passed into this field about
>> 65 Myr back. Thus, the extinction of the dinosaurs, who'd been top dog
>> for upwards of 100 Myr. But, Mammalia now had a wide-open ecosystem to
>> fill, and expanded enthusiastically into all of those niches.
>>
>> Intelligence developed -- under the effects of that field. When Sol
>> finally exited that field, it was as if humanity (and apes, and farm
>> animals, and so on) had been running metaphorical marathons while
>> carrying full packs. Field goes away and bang! everybody (and
>> everything) is suddenly able to think much more effectively.
>>
>> Nothing to do with panspermia, as far as I can tell.
>>
>>> Hoyle's steady state universe theory is my favorite theory
>>> because it explains galactic blue shifts.
>>
>> I assume that you're referring to the fact that for "nearby"
>> galaxies, their peculiar velocity[1] is large compared to
>> their velocity due to the Hubble flow. This effect is not
>> really observed further away than the Virgo cluster.[2]
>>
>> But, the expansion of the universe is supported by more than
>> galactic redshift. For instance, there's the cosmic microwave
>> background.[3] This was the final nail in Steady State's coffin,
>> since Hot Big Bang predicted its existence, while Steady State
>> couldn't even explain it.
>>
>> There's also the distributions of quasars and young galaxies.
>>
>> The relative abundances of hydrogen and helium in the universe
>> (74% H, 26% He) are predicted by the Big Bang model as well.[4]
>> Without Big Bang nucleosynthesis, Hoyle spent much of the latter
>> part of his career trying to deduce a mechanism by which the
>> quarks or hydrogen atoms of continuous creation[5] could be turned
>> into an adequate supply of helium.
>>
>> Of course, "steady state" doesn't mean "non-expanding", anyway.
>> Hoyle himself knew that the universe was expanding, which was
>> why he had to posit continuous creation to keep the universe
>> from changing as it expanded.
>>
>> That having been said, the scene in Blish's _The Triumph of
>> Time_ where our intrepid band is in a position to observe the
>> "ping"s of hydrogen atoms popping into existence is still
>> pretty cool, even if it's based on a since-falsified theory.
>>
>> [1] <http://astronomy.swin.edu.au/cosmos/P/Peculiar+Velocity>
>> [2]
>> <http://www.astro.cornell.edu/academics/courses/astro201/hubbles_law.htm>
>> [3] <https://wmap.gsfc.nasa.gov/universe/bb_tests_cmb.html>
>> [4] <http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/Astro/hydhel.html>
>> [5] <http://www.originsquest.org/objections-to-continuous-creation.html>
>>
>> --
>> Michael F. Stemper
>> Why doesn't anybody care about apathy?
>
> The field did not directly suppress intelligence. It reduced the speed of electromagnetic transmissions in vacuum to the to the 1c we know. Once earth moved out of the field, light reverted to its "normal" speed which is vastly higher. As a result all electronic and electro-chemical devices work much, much faster.
>

Which really ought to lead to everyone living a slow motion existence as
their muscles fail to keep up with their brain and nerves and objects
fall with glacial speed to our perceptions.
Dorothy J Heydt
2018-03-23 20:04:35 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
In article <***@crcomp.net>, D B Davis <***@crcomp.net> wrote:
>
>Dorothy J Heydt <***@kithrup.com> wrote:
>> In article <35f964bd-b204-4342-9da2-***@googlegroups.com>,
>> The Zygon <***@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>The idea of the superman pervades science fiction. But in most of the
>>>stories I have read, the superhumans are evil in some way and need to be
>>>destroyed. I have read very few in which all humans have become
>>>superhuman, compared to humanity of today. I am interested in hearing
>>>about stories which tackle this problem. That is, how to write a good
>>>story where all humans are superhuman, and so the story is not about the
>>>clash between the ordinary humans and superhumans.
>>
>>>Maybe I should add that sometimes the clash set to some remove. The
>>>superhumans have become separated from the main branch of humanity, and
>>>the clash is between the main branch and separated superhumans.
>>
>> Well, Anderson's _Brain Wave_, in which the Solar System drifts
>> out of a cloud of handwavium and everybody becomes much more
>> intelligent. Some people can't take it.
>>
>> Van Vogt's _Slan,_ of course. They're not superhumans, but they
>> are telepaths, which gives everybody else the creeps.
>>
>> Ditto Padgett's _Mutant_, whose Baldies have the same problem.
>>
>> Heinlein's _Methuselah's Children_ comes to mind, in which the
>> Howard Families have to leave Earth because of conflict with
>> normals ... but they're not superhumans, with the exception maybe
>> of Andrew Libby. They're just longaevi.
>>
>> This is just off the top of my head at 6:30 in the morning. Note
>> also that these are all old stories. Others will be able to
>> provide some newer ones.
>>
>
>Re: _Brain Wave_. Shades of Fred Hoyle's panspermia. Most people who
>give a hoot in hell about Hoyle like that theory. It's not my favorite
>theory. Hoyle's steady state universe theory is my favorite theory
>because it explains galactic blue shifts. Most people who like the
>panspermia theory don't like the steady state theory. So, that makes me
>out of step with most people who give a hoot in hell about Hoyle.
> Re: _Slan_. Do the Dreeges of "Asylum" (Van Vogt) count? If so, then
>surely _Twilight_ (Meyers) along with most of Unnatural Quarter stomping
>grounds of Dan Shamble, Zombie P.I.
> Do mutants count? If so, there's "The Golden Man" (PKD), _Flow My
>Tears the Policeman Said_ (PKD) and _Jumper_ (Gould).
> People with six fingers can enter accelerated time at their pleasure
>in "Six Fingers of Time" (Lafferty). "Big Ancestor" (Wallace) contains
>a mix of humans in different stages of evolution who more-or-less get
>along.

Until they figure out where they really came from. I remember
that story fondly.

--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Michael F. Stemper
2018-03-23 21:12:18 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On 2018-03-23 15:04, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
> In article <***@crcomp.net>, D B Davis <***@crcomp.net> wrote:

>> People with six fingers can enter accelerated time at their pleasure
>> in "Six Fingers of Time" (Lafferty). "Big Ancestor" (Wallace) contains
>> a mix of humans in different stages of evolution who more-or-less get
>> along.
>
> Until they figure out where they really came from. I remember
> that story fondly.

Fun story, indeed.

One of the "people" on the star ship was a "ribonneer". The very first
time that I saw _Star Wars_, I noticed a ribonneer in the cantina scene.

--
Michael F. Stemper
Why doesn't anybody care about apathy?
Dorothy J Heydt
2018-03-23 22:26:44 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
In article <p93qjr$22h$***@dont-email.me>,
Michael F. Stemper <***@gmail.com> wrote:
>On 2018-03-23 15:04, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
>> In article <***@crcomp.net>, D B Davis <***@crcomp.net> wrote:
>
>>> People with six fingers can enter accelerated time at their pleasure
>>> in "Six Fingers of Time" (Lafferty). "Big Ancestor" (Wallace) contains
>>> a mix of humans in different stages of evolution who more-or-less get
>>> along.
>>
>> Until they figure out where they really came from. I remember
>> that story fondly.
>
>Fun story, indeed.
>
>One of the "people" on the star ship was a "ribonneer".

I remember him.

>The very first
>time that I saw _Star Wars_, I noticed a ribonneer in the cantina scene.

I *don't* remember him. Must get the DVD out and watch it again.

--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
The Zygon
2018-03-24 02:31:51 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On Friday, March 23, 2018 at 2:45:12 PM UTC-4, D B Davis wrote:
> Dorothy J Heydt <***@kithrup.com> wrote:
> > In article <35f964bd-b204-4342-9da2-***@googlegroups.com>,
> > The Zygon <***@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>The idea of the superman pervades science fiction. But in most of the
> >>stories I have read, the superhumans are evil in some way and need to be
> >>destroyed. I have read very few in which all humans have become
> >>superhuman, compared to humanity of today. I am interested in hearing
> >>about stories which tackle this problem. That is, how to write a good
> >>story where all humans are superhuman, and so the story is not about the
> >>clash between the ordinary humans and superhumans.
> >
> >>Maybe I should add that sometimes the clash set to some remove. The
> >>superhumans have become separated from the main branch of humanity, and
> >>the clash is between the main branch and separated superhumans.
> >
> > Well, Anderson's _Brain Wave_, in which the Solar System drifts
> > out of a cloud of handwavium and everybody becomes much more
> > intelligent. Some people can't take it.
> >
> > Van Vogt's _Slan,_ of course. They're not superhumans, but they
> > are telepaths, which gives everybody else the creeps.
> >
> > Ditto Padgett's _Mutant_, whose Baldies have the same problem.
> >
> > Heinlein's _Methuselah's Children_ comes to mind, in which the
> > Howard Families have to leave Earth because of conflict with
> > normals ... but they're not superhumans, with the exception maybe
> > of Andrew Libby. They're just longaevi.
> >
> > This is just off the top of my head at 6:30 in the morning. Note
> > also that these are all old stories. Others will be able to
> > provide some newer ones.
> >
>
> Re: _Brain Wave_. Shades of Fred Hoyle's panspermia. Most people who
> give a hoot in hell about Hoyle like that theory. It's not my favorite
> theory. Hoyle's steady state universe theory is my favorite theory
> because it explains galactic blue shifts. Most people who like the
> panspermia theory don't like the steady state theory. So, that makes me
> out of step with most people who give a hoot in hell about Hoyle.
> Re: _Slan_. Do the Dreeges of "Asylum" (Van Vogt) count? If so, then
> surely _Twilight_ (Meyers) along with most of Unnatural Quarter stomping
> grounds of Dan Shamble, Zombie P.I.
> Do mutants count? If so, there's "The Golden Man" (PKD), _Flow My
> Tears the Policeman Said_ (PKD) and _Jumper_ (Gould).
> People with six fingers can enter accelerated time at their pleasure
> in "Six Fingers of Time" (Lafferty). "Big Ancestor" (Wallace) contains
> a mix of humans in different stages of evolution who more-or-less get
> along.
>
> Thank you,
>
> --
> Don

I like yout list. :-)
The Zygon
2018-03-24 02:19:38 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On Friday, March 23, 2018 at 10:00:08 AM UTC-4, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
> In article <35f964bd-b204-4342-9da2-***@googlegroups.com>,
> The Zygon <***@gmail.com> wrote:
> >The idea of the superman pervades science fiction. But in most of the
> >stories I have read, the superhumans are evil in some way and need to be
> >destroyed. I have read very few in which all humans have become
> >superhuman, compared to humanity of today. I am interested in hearing
> >about stories which tackle this problem. That is, how to write a good
> >story where all humans are superhuman, and so the story is not about the
> >clash between the ordinary humans and superhumans.
>
> >Maybe I should add that sometimes the clash set to some remove. The
> >superhumans have become separated from the main branch of humanity, and
> >the clash is between the main branch and separated superhumans.
>
> Well, Anderson's _Brain Wave_, in which the Solar System drifts
> out of a cloud of handwavium and everybody becomes much more
> intelligent. Some people can't take it.
>
> Van Vogt's _Slan,_ of course. They're not superhumans, but they
> are telepaths, which gives everybody else the creeps.
>
> Ditto Padgett's _Mutant_, whose Baldies have the same problem.
>
> Heinlein's _Methuselah's Children_ comes to mind, in which the
> Howard Families have to leave Earth because of conflict with
> normals ... but they're not superhumans, with the exception maybe
> of Andrew Libby. They're just longaevi.
>
> This is just off the top of my head at 6:30 in the morning. Note
> also that these are all old stories. Others will be able to
> provide some newer ones.
>
> --
> Dorothy J. Heydt
> Vallejo, California
> djheydt at gmail dot com

The Slan were also smarter and stronger. They were superhuman.

All the examples you mentioned follow the pattern I find most common.
David Goldfarb
2018-03-24 18:00:32 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
In article <471b58e4-b87c-459b-b664-***@googlegroups.com>,
The Zygon <***@gmail.com> wrote:
>On Friday, March 23, 2018 at 10:00:08 AM UTC-4, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
>> Van Vogt's _Slan,_ of course. They're not superhumans, but they
>> are telepaths, which gives everybody else the creeps.
>
>The Slan were also smarter and stronger. They were superhuman.
>
>All the examples you mentioned follow the pattern I find most common.

I agree with you about the slans, but Van Vogt didn't portray them
as evil and needing to be destroyed: they were feared and persecuted,
but the population at large doing the persecuting was shown as
stupid and ignorant.

--
David Goldfarb |"It doesn't matter. Don't you see? Nothing matters!"
***@gmail.com |
***@ocf.berkeley.edu | -- Fredric Brown, "Come and Go Mad"
Quadibloc
2018-03-25 16:57:21 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On Saturday, March 24, 2018 at 12:30:03 PM UTC-6, David Goldfarb wrote:
> In article <471b58e4-b87c-459b-b664-***@googlegroups.com>,
> The Zygon <***@gmail.com> wrote:
> >On Friday, March 23, 2018 at 10:00:08 AM UTC-4, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
> >> Van Vogt's _Slan,_ of course. They're not superhumans, but they
> >> are telepaths, which gives everybody else the creeps.
> >
> >The Slan were also smarter and stronger. They were superhuman.
> >
> >All the examples you mentioned follow the pattern I find most common.
>
> I agree with you about the slans, but Van Vogt didn't portray them
> as evil and needing to be destroyed: they were feared and persecuted,
> but the population at large doing the persecuting was shown as
> stupid and ignorant.

As far as people being persecuted because they are telepaths, the "The Destiny
Makers" series by Mike Shupp comes to mind.

John Savard
Ahasuerus
2018-03-23 14:08:42 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On Friday, March 23, 2018 at 3:15:06 AM UTC-4, The Zygon wrote:
> The idea of the superman pervades science fiction. But in most of
> the stories I have read, the superhumans are evil in some way and
> need to be destroyed. I have read very few in which all humans have
> become superhuman, compared to humanity of today. I am interested
> in hearing about stories which tackle this problem. That is, how to
> write a good story where all humans are superhuman, and so the story
> is not about the clash between the ordinary humans and superhumans.
[snip]

The first book that comes to mind is Poul Anderson's _Brain Wave_
(1954, http://www.isfdb.org/cgi-bin/title.cgi?2320). "Humans becoming
superhuman" was a popular theme at the time. Anderson's was one of
the better and more memorable treatments.
Peter Trei
2018-03-23 14:39:13 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On Friday, March 23, 2018 at 10:08:45 AM UTC-4, Ahasuerus wrote:
> On Friday, March 23, 2018 at 3:15:06 AM UTC-4, The Zygon wrote:
> > The idea of the superman pervades science fiction. But in most of
> > the stories I have read, the superhumans are evil in some way and
> > need to be destroyed. I have read very few in which all humans have
> > become superhuman, compared to humanity of today. I am interested
> > in hearing about stories which tackle this problem. That is, how to
> > write a good story where all humans are superhuman, and so the story
> > is not about the clash between the ordinary humans and superhumans.
> [snip]
>
> The first book that comes to mind is Poul Anderson's _Brain Wave_
> (1954, http://www.isfdb.org/cgi-bin/title.cgi?2320). "Humans becoming
> superhuman" was a popular theme at the time. Anderson's was one of
> the better and more memorable treatments.

"Brain Wave" is certainly a contender. However, in that everyone (including all
animals with a brain), get exactly the same superpower: INT x 5.

If the 'Flynn Effect' is real, and means something, and doesn't top out (all
of which are questionable), we'll all get there in about 1300 years.

pt
The Zygon
2018-03-24 02:20:57 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On Friday, March 23, 2018 at 10:08:45 AM UTC-4, Ahasuerus wrote:
> On Friday, March 23, 2018 at 3:15:06 AM UTC-4, The Zygon wrote:
> > The idea of the superman pervades science fiction. But in most of
> > the stories I have read, the superhumans are evil in some way and
> > need to be destroyed. I have read very few in which all humans have
> > become superhuman, compared to humanity of today. I am interested
> > in hearing about stories which tackle this problem. That is, how to
> > write a good story where all humans are superhuman, and so the story
> > is not about the clash between the ordinary humans and superhumans.
> [snip]
>
> The first book that comes to mind is Poul Anderson's _Brain Wave_
> (1954, http://www.isfdb.org/cgi-bin/title.cgi?2320). "Humans becoming
> superhuman" was a popular theme at the time. Anderson's was one of
> the better and more memorable treatments.

_Brain Wave_ is a story I read from time to time.
lal_truckee
2018-03-25 15:51:01 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On 3/23/18 7:08 AM, Ahasuerus wrote:
> The first book that comes to mind is Poul Anderson's _Brain Wave_
> (1954)

The second book that came to mind is
"Children of the Atom" by Wilmar H. Shiras (1953)

Did I miss a previous nomination in the thread?
Dorothy J Heydt
2018-03-25 16:51:28 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
In article <p98gh6$ca2$***@dont-email.me>,
lal_truckee <***@yahoo.com> wrote:
>On 3/23/18 7:08 AM, Ahasuerus wrote:
>> The first book that comes to mind is Poul Anderson's _Brain Wave_
>> (1954)
>
>The second book that came to mind is
>"Children of the Atom" by Wilmar H. Shiras (1953)
>
>Did I miss a previous nomination in the thread?

No, this is the first mention of Shiras that I've seen.

I met Ms. Shiras once; she said that fans kept coming up to her
at cons and saying, "That book was about ME!"

And it's true that you don't have to be a super-genius who's
publishing at age eight to be the brightest kid in a classful of
average kids and loathed because of it. Adfui, feci.

--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Ahasuerus
2018-03-25 17:16:13 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On Sunday, March 25, 2018 at 1:00:06 PM UTC-4, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
> In article <p98gh6$ca2$***@dont-email.me>,
> lal_truckee <***@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >On 3/23/18 7:08 AM, Ahasuerus wrote:
> >> The first book that comes to mind is Poul Anderson's _Brain Wave_
> >> (1954)
> >
> >The second book that came to mind is
> >"Children of the Atom" by Wilmar H. Shiras (1953)
> >
> >Did I miss a previous nomination in the thread?
>
> No, this is the first mention of Shiras that I've seen.
>
> I met Ms. Shiras once; she said that fans kept coming up to her
> at cons and saying, "That book was about ME!"
>
> And it's true that you don't have to be a super-genius who's
> publishing at age eight to be the brightest kid in a classful of
> average kids and loathed because of it. Adfui, feci.

It's also true that you don't have to have pyrokinetic powers to
be hated and abused by your classmates. But it helps.
Quadibloc
2018-03-27 00:11:18 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
I thought being hated and abused came first, and _then_ the
pyrokinetic powers manifested themselves.
Dorothy J Heydt
2018-03-27 00:18:02 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
In article <c687639f-77a6-497b-aaeb-***@googlegroups.com>,
Quadibloc <***@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:
>I thought being hated and abused came first, and _then_ the
>pyrokinetic powers manifested themselves.

Don't those powers tend to manifest in adolescence? In which
case the person doesn't *have* to have been hated and abused.
Just being an adolescent is impetus enough.

--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Dimensional Traveler
2018-03-27 02:59:40 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On 3/26/2018 5:18 PM, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
> In article <c687639f-77a6-497b-aaeb-***@googlegroups.com>,
> Quadibloc <***@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:
>> I thought being hated and abused came first, and _then_ the
>> pyrokinetic powers manifested themselves.
>
> Don't those powers tend to manifest in adolescence? In which
> case the person doesn't *have* to have been hated and abused.
> Just being an adolescent is impetus enough.
>
Can you think of an adolescent who hasn't felt hated and abused?

--
Inquiring minds want to know while minds with a self-preservation
instinct are running screaming.
Dorothy J Heydt
2018-03-27 05:55:10 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
In article <p9cc2q$psu$***@dont-email.me>,
Dimensional Traveler <***@sonic.net> wrote:
>On 3/26/2018 5:18 PM, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
>> In article <c687639f-77a6-497b-aaeb-***@googlegroups.com>,
>> Quadibloc <***@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:
>>> I thought being hated and abused came first, and _then_ the
>>> pyrokinetic powers manifested themselves.
>>
>> Don't those powers tend to manifest in adolescence? In which
>> case the person doesn't *have* to have been hated and abused.
>> Just being an adolescent is impetus enough.
>>
>Can you think of an adolescent who hasn't felt hated and abused?

Well, I didn't feel hated and abused as an adolescent. But I've
always been an outlier. Note that I was never a pyrokinetic
either.

--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Greg Goss
2018-03-27 11:29:36 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
***@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) wrote:

>In article <p9cc2q$psu$***@dont-email.me>,
>Dimensional Traveler <***@sonic.net> wrote:
>>On 3/26/2018 5:18 PM, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
>>> In article <c687639f-77a6-497b-aaeb-***@googlegroups.com>,
>>> Quadibloc <***@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:
>>>> I thought being hated and abused came first, and _then_ the
>>>> pyrokinetic powers manifested themselves.
>>>
>>> Don't those powers tend to manifest in adolescence? In which
>>> case the person doesn't *have* to have been hated and abused.
>>> Just being an adolescent is impetus enough.
>>>
>>Can you think of an adolescent who hasn't felt hated and abused?
>
>Well, I didn't feel hated and abused as an adolescent. But I've
>always been an outlier. Note that I was never a pyrokinetic
>either.

I was hated and abused up to Grade 6 (age 12), maybe Grade 7. I
didn't actually notice when it stopped.

High school was actually sane for me. I was still a misfit and deeply
unhappy, but I internalized that as my own problem, not anything that
people around me were doing. It wasn't until well into my forties
that I discovered that everyone's HIGH SCHOOL was supposed to be a
disaster.
--
We are geeks. Resistance is voltage over current.
D B Davis
2018-03-27 15:57:17 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Greg Goss <***@gossg.org> wrote:
> ***@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) wrote:
>
>>In article <p9cc2q$psu$***@dont-email.me>,
>>Dimensional Traveler <***@sonic.net> wrote:
>>>On 3/26/2018 5:18 PM, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
>>>> In article <c687639f-77a6-497b-aaeb-***@googlegroups.com>,
>>>> Quadibloc <***@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:
>>>>> I thought being hated and abused came first, and _then_ the
>>>>> pyrokinetic powers manifested themselves.
>>>>
>>>> Don't those powers tend to manifest in adolescence? In which
>>>> case the person doesn't *have* to have been hated and abused.
>>>> Just being an adolescent is impetus enough.
>>>>
>>>Can you think of an adolescent who hasn't felt hated and abused?
>>
>>Well, I didn't feel hated and abused as an adolescent. But I've
>>always been an outlier. Note that I was never a pyrokinetic
>>either.
>
> I was hated and abused up to Grade 6 (age 12), maybe Grade 7. I
> didn't actually notice when it stopped.
>
> High school was actually sane for me. I was still a misfit and deeply
> unhappy, but I internalized that as my own problem, not anything that
> people around me were doing. It wasn't until well into my forties
> that I discovered that everyone's HIGH SCHOOL was supposed to be a
> disaster.

The typical high school sports/prom/clique experience as portrayed in
books and movies didn't apply to me. All of those typical things
probably happened while my head was buried in books.
The system placed me into honors classes starting with junior high
school. For the most part, my classes, except for the mandatory gym
class and lunch, were a joyful learning experience.
Of course, you still had to navigate crowded corridors between
classes. Sometimes fights erupted. But the refuge of yet another
peaceful oasis (excluding gym and lunch) always awaited you. Elusive
evasiveness worked best for me to quickly traverse from one oasis to the
next.
Summer school was one of the early highlights of my life. During my
freshman high school year it occurred to me how to graduate early.
Early graduation doesn't happen unless you yourself drive the
process in the first place. It may be impossible these days because it
reduces head count and, by extension, funding.
Part of my ploy to graduate early was to attend summer schools and
thereby rack up extra credits. Requisite credits necessary to ultimately
jettison high school and enter college proper.
Summer school was a thoroughly enjoyable experience. The building
was virtually deserted. It was a relaxed atmosphere. It /felt/ like an
exclusive college campus.
All of the usual suspects who hated school raised hell elsewhere,
which suited me just fine. The only students left in the building were
scholars and clowns.
The entire class of one of my math courses consisted of another
student, me, and a photo of Bob Noyce on the wall. The school's small
computer room did double duty that summer and was used as a classroom.
The teacher programmed when we self-studied. Such a high (eg expensive)
student-teacher ratio makes for a quality learning experience.
The clowns were there because they goofed off too much during the
regular school semester and had to make up classes. They made superb
comic relief at breaks.

Thank you,

--
Don
The Zygon
2018-03-28 05:11:18 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On Tuesday, March 27, 2018 at 11:57:19 AM UTC-4, D B Davis wrote:
> Greg Goss <***@gossg.org> wrote:
> > ***@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) wrote:
> >
> >>In article <p9cc2q$psu$***@dont-email.me>,
> >>Dimensional Traveler <***@sonic.net> wrote:
> >>>On 3/26/2018 5:18 PM, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
> >>>> In article <c687639f-77a6-497b-aaeb-***@googlegroups.com>,
> >>>> Quadibloc <***@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:
> >>>>> I thought being hated and abused came first, and _then_ the
> >>>>> pyrokinetic powers manifested themselves.
> >>>>
> >>>> Don't those powers tend to manifest in adolescence? In which
> >>>> case the person doesn't *have* to have been hated and abused.
> >>>> Just being an adolescent is impetus enough.
> >>>>
> >>>Can you think of an adolescent who hasn't felt hated and abused?
> >>
> >>Well, I didn't feel hated and abused as an adolescent. But I've
> >>always been an outlier. Note that I was never a pyrokinetic
> >>either.
> >
> > I was hated and abused up to Grade 6 (age 12), maybe Grade 7. I
> > didn't actually notice when it stopped.
> >
> > High school was actually sane for me. I was still a misfit and deeply
> > unhappy, but I internalized that as my own problem, not anything that
> > people around me were doing. It wasn't until well into my forties
> > that I discovered that everyone's HIGH SCHOOL was supposed to be a
> > disaster.
>
> The typical high school sports/prom/clique experience as portrayed in
> books and movies didn't apply to me. All of those typical things
> probably happened while my head was buried in books.
> The system placed me into honors classes starting with junior high
> school. For the most part, my classes, except for the mandatory gym
> class and lunch, were a joyful learning experience.
> Of course, you still had to navigate crowded corridors between
> classes. Sometimes fights erupted. But the refuge of yet another
> peaceful oasis (excluding gym and lunch) always awaited you. Elusive
> evasiveness worked best for me to quickly traverse from one oasis to the
> next.
> Summer school was one of the early highlights of my life. During my
> freshman high school year it occurred to me how to graduate early.
> Early graduation doesn't happen unless you yourself drive the
> process in the first place. It may be impossible these days because it
> reduces head count and, by extension, funding.
> Part of my ploy to graduate early was to attend summer schools and
> thereby rack up extra credits. Requisite credits necessary to ultimately
> jettison high school and enter college proper.
> Summer school was a thoroughly enjoyable experience. The building
> was virtually deserted. It was a relaxed atmosphere. It /felt/ like an
> exclusive college campus.
> All of the usual suspects who hated school raised hell elsewhere,
> which suited me just fine. The only students left in the building were
> scholars and clowns.
> The entire class of one of my math courses consisted of another
> student, me, and a photo of Bob Noyce on the wall. The school's small
> computer room did double duty that summer and was used as a classroom.
> The teacher programmed when we self-studied. Such a high (eg expensive)
> student-teacher ratio makes for a quality learning experience.
> The clowns were there because they goofed off too much during the
> regular school semester and had to make up classes. They made superb
> comic relief at breaks.
>
> Thank you,
>
> --
> Don

You can use the "summer school" in college as well. I used it, not to graduate early, but to have multiple majors.
David DeLaney
2018-04-02 09:29:08 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On 2018-03-27, D B Davis <***@crcomp.net> wrote:
> Early graduation doesn't happen unless you yourself drive the
> process in the first place. It may be impossible these days because it
> reduces head count and, by extension, funding.

It was still possible in Cleveland in 1980. My high school was private, so no
city-funding worries, just alumni-funding. The key there was that Ohio (?)
mandated four years of English in high school ... so you had to test into
sophomore English for your first year, which I did.

I only recently got the Alumni Organization to comprehend that while I
-graduated- in 1980, that wasn't my -class-; my class and classmates were '81.

Dave, have not been back for a reunion since moving out of state. yet.
--
\/David DeLaney posting thru EarthLink - "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
my gatekeeper archives are no longer accessible :( / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.
The Zygon
2018-03-28 05:01:25 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On Tuesday, March 27, 2018 at 7:30:24 AM UTC-4, Greg Goss wrote:
> ***@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) wrote:
>
> >In article <p9cc2q$psu$***@dont-email.me>,
> >Dimensional Traveler <***@sonic.net> wrote:
> >>On 3/26/2018 5:18 PM, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
> >>> In article <c687639f-77a6-497b-aaeb-***@googlegroups.com>,
> >>> Quadibloc <***@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:
> >>>> I thought being hated and abused came first, and _then_ the
> >>>> pyrokinetic powers manifested themselves.
> >>>
> >>> Don't those powers tend to manifest in adolescence? In which
> >>> case the person doesn't *have* to have been hated and abused.
> >>> Just being an adolescent is impetus enough.
> >>>
> >>Can you think of an adolescent who hasn't felt hated and abused?
> >
> >Well, I didn't feel hated and abused as an adolescent. But I've
> >always been an outlier. Note that I was never a pyrokinetic
> >either.
>
> I was hated and abused up to Grade 6 (age 12), maybe Grade 7. I
> didn't actually notice when it stopped.
>
> High school was actually sane for me. I was still a misfit and deeply
> unhappy, but I internalized that as my own problem, not anything that
> people around me were doing. It wasn't until well into my forties
> that I discovered that everyone's HIGH SCHOOL was supposed to be a
> disaster.
> --
> We are geeks. Resistance is voltage over current.

If you are lucky, you can be an outlier in a community and not be an outcast. But you probably need to keep quiet about your thinking. In my case, I did not believe or even respect most of what they held as "God given". I just never told them. To give an example, my community believed that the moon landings were faked because "God would not let anyone interfere with his moon".
The Zygon
2018-03-28 04:54:32 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On Tuesday, March 27, 2018 at 2:00:04 AM UTC-4, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
> In article <p9cc2q$psu$***@dont-email.me>,
> Dimensional Traveler <***@sonic.net> wrote:
> >On 3/26/2018 5:18 PM, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
> >> In article <c687639f-77a6-497b-aaeb-***@googlegroups.com>,
> >> Quadibloc <***@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:
> >>> I thought being hated and abused came first, and _then_ the
> >>> pyrokinetic powers manifested themselves.
> >>
> >> Don't those powers tend to manifest in adolescence? In which
> >> case the person doesn't *have* to have been hated and abused.
> >> Just being an adolescent is impetus enough.
> >>
> >Can you think of an adolescent who hasn't felt hated and abused?
>
> Well, I didn't feel hated and abused as an adolescent. But I've
> always been an outlier. Note that I was never a pyrokinetic
> either.
>
> --
> Dorothy J. Heydt
> Vallejo, California
> djheydt at gmail dot com

I have never felt hated and abused. But you can feel an outlier for all kinds of reasons, some of them unrelated to your abilities real or imagined. I grew up in a community where physicality was not just king, it was the only thing. I was a bookworm. I was "strange", but not despised or bullied.
Gene Wirchenko
2018-03-27 21:22:49 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On Mon, 26 Mar 2018 19:59:40 -0700, Dimensional Traveler
<***@sonic.net> wrote:

>On 3/26/2018 5:18 PM, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
>> In article <c687639f-77a6-497b-aaeb-***@googlegroups.com>,
>> Quadibloc <***@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:
>>> I thought being hated and abused came first, and _then_ the
>>> pyrokinetic powers manifested themselves.
>>
>> Don't those powers tend to manifest in adolescence? In which
>> case the person doesn't *have* to have been hated and abused.
>> Just being an adolescent is impetus enough.
>>
>Can you think of an adolescent who hasn't felt hated and abused?

I thought it was not understood, unless of course, someone really
does.

Sincerely,

Gene Wirchenko
Johnny1A
2018-03-31 03:37:35 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On Monday, March 26, 2018 at 9:59:40 PM UTC-5, Dimensional Traveler wrote:
> On 3/26/2018 5:18 PM, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
> > In article <c687639f-77a6-497b-aaeb-***@googlegroups.com>,
> > Quadibloc <***@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:
> >> I thought being hated and abused came first, and _then_ the
> >> pyrokinetic powers manifested themselves.
> >
> > Don't those powers tend to manifest in adolescence? In which
> > case the person doesn't *have* to have been hated and abused.
> > Just being an adolescent is impetus enough.
> >
> Can you think of an adolescent who hasn't felt hated and abused?

They exist. I'm not sure, in the long term, if that's actually advantageous for them, though. Some kids actually _peak_ in high school in terms of personal happiness and fulfilment, and spend the rest of their lives longing for it.

Recall the old song _Glory Days_ by Bruce Springsteen? There _are_ kids like that in the real world, the former quarterback still going on about the touchdown at the State championship 40 years later, or the former uber-popular cheerleader who wonders why she can't get what she wants with a smile and wiggle anymore. I'm not sure how common they are, but you meet them.
m***@sky.com
2018-03-31 05:09:37 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On Saturday, March 31, 2018 at 4:37:37 AM UTC+1, Johnny1A wrote:
> On Monday, March 26, 2018 at 9:59:40 PM UTC-5, Dimensional Traveler wrote:
> > On 3/26/2018 5:18 PM, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
> > > In article <c687639f-77a6-497b-aaeb-***@googlegroups.com>,
> > > Quadibloc <***@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:
> > >> I thought being hated and abused came first, and _then_ the
> > >> pyrokinetic powers manifested themselves.
> > >
> > > Don't those powers tend to manifest in adolescence? In which
> > > case the person doesn't *have* to have been hated and abused.
> > > Just being an adolescent is impetus enough.
> > >
> > Can you think of an adolescent who hasn't felt hated and abused?
>
> They exist. I'm not sure, in the long term, if that's actually advantageous for them, though. Some kids actually _peak_ in high school in terms of personal happiness and fulfilment, and spend the rest of their lives longing for it.
>
> Recall the old song _Glory Days_ by Bruce Springsteen? There _are_ kids like that in the real world, the former quarterback still going on about the touchdown at the State championship 40 years later, or the former uber-popular cheerleader who wonders why she can't get what she wants with a smile and wiggle anymore. I'm not sure how common they are, but you meet them.

Every high school will have a local champion. When those champions go on to the next level, most of them will - by definition - be mediocre. Those of us who did well at school and went to good universities were warned of this. In my case the result was that I didn't aim high at university, and instead spent far too much time reading Science Fiction.
The Zygon
2018-03-31 08:25:15 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On Friday, March 30, 2018 at 11:37:37 PM UTC-4, Johnny1A wrote:
> On Monday, March 26, 2018 at 9:59:40 PM UTC-5, Dimensional Traveler wrote:
> > On 3/26/2018 5:18 PM, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
> > > In article <c687639f-77a6-497b-aaeb-***@googlegroups.com>,
> > > Quadibloc <***@ecn.ab.ca> wrote:
> > >> I thought being hated and abused came first, and _then_ the
> > >> pyrokinetic powers manifested themselves.
> > >
> > > Don't those powers tend to manifest in adolescence? In which
> > > case the person doesn't *have* to have been hated and abused.
> > > Just being an adolescent is impetus enough.
> > >
> > Can you think of an adolescent who hasn't felt hated and abused?
>
> They exist. I'm not sure, in the long term, if that's actually advantageous for them, though. Some kids actually _peak_ in high school in terms of personal happiness and fulfilment, and spend the rest of their lives longing for it.
>
> Recall the old song _Glory Days_ by Bruce Springsteen? There _are_ kids like that in the real world, the former quarterback still going on about the touchdown at the State championship 40 years later, or the former uber-popular cheerleader who wonders why she can't get what she wants with a smile and wiggle anymore. I'm not sure how common they are, but you meet them.

The adolescent rebellion thing is a peculiarity of American society which Americans have decided is pan-human trait, as we so often do with other American social peculiarities. In many societies people obey their parents well into adulthood and never rebel.
Kevrob
2018-03-31 12:51:21 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On Saturday, March 31, 2018 at 4:25:17 AM UTC-4, The Zygon wrote:

> The adolescent rebellion thing is a peculiarity of American society which Americans have decided is pan-human trait, as we so often do with other American social peculiarities. In many societies people obey their parents well into adulthood and never rebel.

It shows up in other ways, many familiar to followers of genre fiction.
The son who can't stand to stay on the farm so he runs off to sea, or
"goes for a soldier," for example. Then there's the wastrel son who
lives it up, rather than attending to the family business with the ur-
example the New Testament's prodigal son.

What would be the female equivalents? Running off with some traveling
fellow?

Kevin R
Robert Carnegie
2018-04-01 03:07:23 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On Saturday, 31 March 2018 13:51:25 UTC+1, Kevrob wrote:
> On Saturday, March 31, 2018 at 4:25:17 AM UTC-4, The Zygon wrote:
>
> > The adolescent rebellion thing is a peculiarity of American society which Americans have decided is pan-human trait, as we so often do with other American social peculiarities. In many societies people obey their parents well into adulthood and never rebel.
>
> It shows up in other ways, many familiar to followers of genre fiction.
> The son who can't stand to stay on the farm so he runs off to sea, or
> "goes for a soldier," for example. Then there's the wastrel son who
> lives it up, rather than attending to the family business with the
> ur-example the New Testament's prodigal son.
>
> What would be the female equivalents? Running off with some traveling
> fellow?

There are ballads. And The Corrs addressed the subject,
several years ago now I suppose.
lal_truckee
2018-03-27 05:26:51 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On 3/25/18 9:51 AM, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
> I met Ms. Shiras once; she said that fans kept coming up to her
> at cons and saying, "That book was about ME!"
>
> And it's true that you don't have to be a super-genius who's
> publishing at age eight to be the brightest kid in a classful of
> average kids and loathed because of it. Adfui, feci.

Now you've done it. Not enough that I've already got a stack of "to be
read" a meter high or so, now I had to go to my library, and there it is
- "Children of the Atom." Avon Publications, Inc. 35 cents still
readable, not crumbling yet.

So far I've re-read about half of it - every other paragraph seems to be
remembered rather than reread.

If I'm not careful it will trigger a cascading re-read of Heinlein
juveniles, from the same era.
Dorothy J Heydt
2018-03-27 05:55:58 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
In article <p9ckmu$tm9$***@dont-email.me>,
lal_truckee <***@yahoo.com> wrote:
>On 3/25/18 9:51 AM, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
>> I met Ms. Shiras once; she said that fans kept coming up to her
>> at cons and saying, "That book was about ME!"
>>
>> And it's true that you don't have to be a super-genius who's
>> publishing at age eight to be the brightest kid in a classful of
>> average kids and loathed because of it. Adfui, feci.
>
>Now you've done it. Not enough that I've already got a stack of "to be
>read" a meter high or so, now I had to go to my library, and there it is
>- "Children of the Atom." Avon Publications, Inc. 35 cents still
>readable, not crumbling yet.
>
>So far I've re-read about half of it - every other paragraph seems to be
>remembered rather than reread.
>
>If I'm not careful it will trigger a cascading re-read of Heinlein
>juveniles, from the same era.

You could do worse. Early Heinlein is much much better than late
Heinlein.

--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
The Zygon
2018-03-28 04:57:14 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On Tuesday, March 27, 2018 at 2:00:04 AM UTC-4, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
> In article <p9ckmu$tm9$***@dont-email.me>,
> lal_truckee <***@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >On 3/25/18 9:51 AM, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
> >> I met Ms. Shiras once; she said that fans kept coming up to her
> >> at cons and saying, "That book was about ME!"
> >>
> >> And it's true that you don't have to be a super-genius who's
> >> publishing at age eight to be the brightest kid in a classful of
> >> average kids and loathed because of it. Adfui, feci.
> >
> >Now you've done it. Not enough that I've already got a stack of "to be
> >read" a meter high or so, now I had to go to my library, and there it is
> >- "Children of the Atom." Avon Publications, Inc. 35 cents still
> >readable, not crumbling yet.
> >
> >So far I've re-read about half of it - every other paragraph seems to be
> >remembered rather than reread.
> >
> >If I'm not careful it will trigger a cascading re-read of Heinlein
> >juveniles, from the same era.
>
> You could do worse. Early Heinlein is much much better than late
> Heinlein.
>
> --
> Dorothy J. Heydt
> Vallejo, California
> djheydt at gmail dot com

His later books were full of interminable dialogue which did not advance the story at all. Some authors use dialogue to communicate ideas, but a lot of Heinlein's dialogue were banal.
D B Davis
2018-03-23 14:22:48 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
The Zygon <***@gmail.com> wrote:
> The idea of the superman pervades science fiction. But in most of the
> stories I have read, the superhumans are evil in some way and need to
> be destroyed. I have read very few in which all humans have become
> superhuman, compared to humanity of today. I am interested in hearing
> about stories which tackle this problem. That is, how to write a good
> story where all humans are superhuman, and so the story is not about
> the clash between the ordinary humans and superhumans.
>
> Maybe I should add that sometimes the clash set to some remove. The
> superhumans have become separated from the main branch of humanity,
> and the clash is between the main branch and separated superhumans.
>

Does superhuman cognition imparted by a brain augmentation device count?
If so, "Historical Crisis" and _Psychohistorical Crisis_ (Kingsbury)
both use "fams" (eg familiars) to achieve superhumanity. The fam is an
external symbiotic computer mind that's attached to the skull.
Although the humans in the stories fight each other their conflict
doesn't arise out hatred for The Other. Instead, it's a perfectly
acceptable, sensible, normal (to some) motivation. Various factions
simply crave more power.
You made your feelings toward Orson Scott Card known. Nonetheless,
don't some of his stories contain superhuman cognition?
If fountain-of-youth technology counts, there's the _TekWar_
(Goulart) franchise. Factions, which contain a mix of humans and robots,
fight each other for "good" reasons and not out of hatred for The Other.
One robot becomes bored with the constraints imposed by the three laws
of robotics (so to speak). The humans, as always, simply crave more
power.

Thank you,

--
Don
The Zygon
2018-03-24 02:24:50 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On Friday, March 23, 2018 at 10:22:51 AM UTC-4, D B Davis wrote:
> The Zygon <***@gmail.com> wrote:
> > The idea of the superman pervades science fiction. But in most of the
> > stories I have read, the superhumans are evil in some way and need to
> > be destroyed. I have read very few in which all humans have become
> > superhuman, compared to humanity of today. I am interested in hearing
> > about stories which tackle this problem. That is, how to write a good
> > story where all humans are superhuman, and so the story is not about
> > the clash between the ordinary humans and superhumans.
> >
> > Maybe I should add that sometimes the clash set to some remove. The
> > superhumans have become separated from the main branch of humanity,
> > and the clash is between the main branch and separated superhumans.
> >
>
> Does superhuman cognition imparted by a brain augmentation device count?
> If so, "Historical Crisis" and _Psychohistorical Crisis_ (Kingsbury)
> both use "fams" (eg familiars) to achieve superhumanity. The fam is an
> external symbiotic computer mind that's attached to the skull.
> Although the humans in the stories fight each other their conflict
> doesn't arise out hatred for The Other. Instead, it's a perfectly
> acceptable, sensible, normal (to some) motivation. Various factions
> simply crave more power.
> You made your feelings toward Orson Scott Card known. Nonetheless,
> don't some of his stories contain superhuman cognition?
> If fountain-of-youth technology counts, there's the _TekWar_
> (Goulart) franchise. Factions, which contain a mix of humans and robots,
> fight each other for "good" reasons and not out of hatred for The Other.
> One robot becomes bored with the constraints imposed by the three laws
> of robotics (so to speak). The humans, as always, simply crave more
> power.
>
> Thank you,
>
> --
> Don

I like Orson Scott Card. He is the first writer I read who I thought was a writer first and a science fiction enthusiast second.
Lynn McGuire
2018-03-26 20:40:08 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On 3/23/2018 9:24 PM, The Zygon wrote:
> On Friday, March 23, 2018 at 10:22:51 AM UTC-4, D B Davis wrote:
>> The Zygon <***@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> The idea of the superman pervades science fiction. But in most of the
>>> stories I have read, the superhumans are evil in some way and need to
>>> be destroyed. I have read very few in which all humans have become
>>> superhuman, compared to humanity of today. I am interested in hearing
>>> about stories which tackle this problem. That is, how to write a good
>>> story where all humans are superhuman, and so the story is not about
>>> the clash between the ordinary humans and superhumans.
>>>
>>> Maybe I should add that sometimes the clash set to some remove. The
>>> superhumans have become separated from the main branch of humanity,
>>> and the clash is between the main branch and separated superhumans.
>>>
>>
>> Does superhuman cognition imparted by a brain augmentation device count?
>> If so, "Historical Crisis" and _Psychohistorical Crisis_ (Kingsbury)
>> both use "fams" (eg familiars) to achieve superhumanity. The fam is an
>> external symbiotic computer mind that's attached to the skull.
>> Although the humans in the stories fight each other their conflict
>> doesn't arise out hatred for The Other. Instead, it's a perfectly
>> acceptable, sensible, normal (to some) motivation. Various factions
>> simply crave more power.
>> You made your feelings toward Orson Scott Card known. Nonetheless,
>> don't some of his stories contain superhuman cognition?
>> If fountain-of-youth technology counts, there's the _TekWar_
>> (Goulart) franchise. Factions, which contain a mix of humans and robots,
>> fight each other for "good" reasons and not out of hatred for The Other.
>> One robot becomes bored with the constraints imposed by the three laws
>> of robotics (so to speak). The humans, as always, simply crave more
>> power.
>>
>> Thank you,
>>
>> --
>> Don
>
> I like Orson Scott Card. He is the first writer I read who I thought was a writer first and a science fiction enthusiast second.

Wow, those are fighting words around here. "ducks and runs away".

Lynn
Jack Bohn
2018-03-23 14:39:44 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Pohl's "Day Million" leaps to mind, where everyone has superpowers compared to us in the mid-20th century. (I might somehow wedge in "The Marching Morons," with a cabal of normal humans as being super in that society and secretly running the world.)

Timothy Zahn's Cobras were enhanced soldiers who couldn't quite be de-enhanced or deprogrammed after the war; it was suggested they might be more comfortable in their own colony on the frontier. Which reminds me of Harry Harrison's _Deathworld_. The planet Pyrrhus, wasn't it? The Pyrrhics developed superhuman strength speed and reflexes to defend against everything on the planet that was trying to kill them.

--
-Jack
Leo Sgouros
2018-03-23 14:43:30 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On Friday, March 23, 2018 at 9:39:47 AM UTC-5, Jack Bohn wrote:
> Pohl's "Day Million" leaps to mind, where everyone has superpowers compared to us in the mid-20th century. (I might somehow wedge in "The Marching Morons," with a cabal of normal humans as being super in that society and secretly running the world.)
>
> Timothy Zahn's Cobras were enhanced soldiers who couldn't quite be de-enhanced or deprogrammed after the war; it was suggested they might be more comfortable in their own colony on the frontier.


Scalzi's "Old Man's War" series takes the same tack.


Which reminds me of Harry Harrison's _Deathworld_. The planet Pyrrhus, wasn't it? The Pyrrhics developed superhuman strength speed and reflexes to defend against everything on the planet that was trying to kill them.
>
> --
> -Jack
The Zygon
2018-03-24 02:27:25 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On Friday, March 23, 2018 at 10:43:33 AM UTC-4, Leo Sgouros wrote:
> On Friday, March 23, 2018 at 9:39:47 AM UTC-5, Jack Bohn wrote:
> > Pohl's "Day Million" leaps to mind, where everyone has superpowers compared to us in the mid-20th century. (I might somehow wedge in "The Marching Morons," with a cabal of normal humans as being super in that society and secretly running the world.)
> >
> > Timothy Zahn's Cobras were enhanced soldiers who couldn't quite be de-enhanced or deprogrammed after the war; it was suggested they might be more comfortable in their own colony on the frontier.
>
>
> Scalzi's "Old Man's War" series takes the same tack.
>
>
> Which reminds me of Harry Harrison's _Deathworld_. The planet Pyrrhus, wasn't it? The Pyrrhics developed superhuman strength speed and reflexes to defend against everything on the planet that was trying to kill them.
> >
> > --
> > -Jack

There was a _Next Generation_ episode with this story line.
Dorothy J Heydt
2018-03-23 18:26:55 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
In article <b770ebe8-fb8c-48c4-9345-***@googlegroups.com>,
Jack Bohn <***@gmail.com> wrote:
>Pohl's "Day Million" leaps to mind, where everyone has superpowers
>compared to us in the mid-20th century. (I might somehow wedge in "The
>Marching Morons," with a cabal of normal humans as being super in that
>society and secretly running the world.)

And they're working themselves to death doing it.


--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
David DeLaney
2018-04-02 09:37:03 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On 2018-03-23, Jack Bohn <***@gmail.com> wrote:
> Pohl's "Day Million"
> Timothy Zahn's Cobras
> Harry Harrison's _Deathworld_.

How about Moorcock's Dancers at the End of Time? Each one controlled vast
resources by today's standards, and could basically reshape reality as they
wished ... feeding off the dregs of the dying universe.

Examples of superhuman powers not shared by all inhabitants include the
webserials _Ra_ and _Fine Structure_ by Sam, at qntm.org; I believe both are
well worth reading.

Hmm, he appears to have two new posts since last I checked ... but that would
mean I haven;t checked since mid-December? Huh.

Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting thru EarthLink - "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
my gatekeeper archives are no longer accessible :( / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.
David Johnston
2018-03-23 20:25:34 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On 2018-03-23 1:15 AM, The Zygon wrote:
> The idea of the superman pervades science fiction. But in most of the stories I have read, the superhumans are evil in some way and need to be destroyed. I have read very few in which all humans have become superhuman, compared to humanity of today. I am interested in hearing about stories which tackle this problem. That is, how to write a good story where all humans are superhuman, and so the story is not about the clash between the ordinary humans and superhumans.
>
> Maybe I should add that sometimes the clash set to some remove. The superhumans have become separated from the main branch of humanity, and the clash is between the main branch and separated superhumans.
>

To quote a wise cape-wearing sage, "when everyone's super, nobody will be".

From the New World: Every human has telekinetic powers that are
potentially vast. So in the tiny oasis where the story is set to
preserve amount of civilization they are all conditioned to be
nonviolent, to die if they ever kill anyone and those on whom the
conditioning didn't take are "disappeared" by the government.

The Stars My Destination: Everyone can teleport. It makes designing
prisons tricky. Note that the protagonist becomes super by getting
powers everyone else doesn't have.

A Certain Scientific Rail Gun: In that particular city everyone has a
power. But most people's powers are inconsequential garbage, if only
because it takes intense training to develop them into something useful.


Arrow and Ace: Everyone develops a single random superpower at puberty.

Darksword Trilogy: Everyone can do magic. Because they kill any babies
who detect as not being able to do magic.

Xanth: Everyone has a magic talent but a lot of them are just garbage.

Great Ship: Everyone is ageless and nigh unkillable so that hard
science interstellar travel becomes feasible. They're willing to spend
thousands of years making the crossing.

The Hour Before Morning: Everyone is a telepath.

Vatta's War: Everyone has a brain implant unless they are some kind of
religious nut or you know irrationally paranoid about having a thing in
their brain that can mess with their brain chemistry and is vulnerable
to outside electromagnetic influence. But who'd worry about that?
<snerk>

Paranoia: Everyone has mutant powers but having known mutant powers is
an execution offense.
David DeLaney
2018-04-02 09:49:32 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On 2018-03-23, David Johnston <***@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Darksword Trilogy: Everyone can do magic. Because they kill any babies
> who detect as not being able to do magic.

Also a theme in Sharon R. Green's The Blending 5+3-book series. Resolved in
a way unanticipated by anyone in power...

> Xanth: Everyone has a magic talent but a lot of them are just garbage.

And they never repeat; Piers Anthony is big on including that detail as a
theme.

> Paranoia: Everyone has mutant powers but having known mutant powers is
> an execution offense.

Everyone is also a member of a secret society, but so is that.

The Commonweal: Everyone has to least SOME access to the Power, usually more
than enough to do simple charms or latch to a focus. Except the 1 in 30,000
who are an absolute null, and can forbid any exercise of the Power in a radius
around them; they are in high demand as chemists and assisters of truly random
necessary choices.
The fact that 1 in 30,000 is also the number of the small bump of forced
sorcerers, who have too much talent to survive not being trained, troubles
the magical theoreticians there.

Dave, see trouble, shoot it
--
\/David DeLaney posting thru EarthLink - "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
my gatekeeper archives are no longer accessible :( / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.
Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)
2018-03-25 02:05:33 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On 3/23/18 3:15 AM, The Zygon wrote:
> The idea of the superman pervades science fiction. But in most of the stories I have read, the superhumans are evil in some way and need to be destroyed. I have read very few in which all humans have become superhuman, compared to humanity of today. I am interested in hearing about stories which tackle this problem. That is, how to write a good story where all humans are superhuman, and so the story is not about the clash between the ordinary humans and superhumans.
>
> Maybe I should add that sometimes the clash set to some remove. The superhumans have become separated from the main branch of humanity, and the clash is between the main branch and separated superhumans.
>

Technically this is true for the Lensman series; even the
man-on-the-street in the Lensverse is far superior to the ordinary
person. In my own Grand Central Arena, the ordinary person of 2375 is
vastly stronger, faster, smarter, and resistant to injury and disease
than people today.

Of course, as Syndrome noted, "If everybody's super... NOBODY IS." That
is, if all of them are superhuman, you won't notice it much.

--
Sea Wasp
/^\
;;;
Website: http://www.grandcentralarena.com Blog:
http://seawasp.dreamwidth.org
Ted Nolan <tednolan>
2018-03-25 03:21:52 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
In article <p9705e$cks$***@dont-email.me>,
Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor) <***@sgeinc.invalid.com> wrote:
>On 3/23/18 3:15 AM, The Zygon wrote:
>> The idea of the superman pervades science fiction. But in most of the
>stories I have read, the superhumans are evil in some way and need to be
>destroyed. I have read very few in which all humans have become
>superhuman, compared to humanity of today. I am interested in hearing
>about stories which tackle this problem. That is, how to write a good
>story where all humans are superhuman, and so the story is not about the
>clash between the ordinary humans and superhumans.
>>
>> Maybe I should add that sometimes the clash set to some remove. The
>superhumans have become separated from the main branch of humanity, and
>the clash is between the main branch and separated superhumans.
>>
>
> Technically this is true for the Lensman series; even the
>man-on-the-street in the Lensverse is far superior to the ordinary
>person. In my own Grand Central Arena, the ordinary person of 2375 is
>vastly stronger, faster, smarter, and resistant to injury and disease
>than people today.
>
> Of course, as Syndrome noted, "If everybody's super... NOBODY IS." That
>is, if all of them are superhuman, you won't notice it much.
>

And then, there's Cogswell's "Limiting Factor"

text (legally or no) at:

http://magicmonkeyboy.blogspot.com/2011/02/limiting-factor-by-theodore-r-cogswell.html
--
------
columbiaclosings.com
What's not in Columbia anymore..
Johnny1A
2018-03-27 04:48:30 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On Saturday, March 24, 2018 at 10:21:55 PM UTC-5, Ted Nolan <tednolan> wrote:
> In article <p9705e$cks$***@dont-email.me>,
> Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor) <***@sgeinc.invalid.com> wrote:
> >On 3/23/18 3:15 AM, The Zygon wrote:
> >> The idea of the superman pervades science fiction. But in most of the
> >stories I have read, the superhumans are evil in some way and need to be
> >destroyed. I have read very few in which all humans have become
> >superhuman, compared to humanity of today. I am interested in hearing
> >about stories which tackle this problem. That is, how to write a good
> >story where all humans are superhuman, and so the story is not about the
> >clash between the ordinary humans and superhumans.
> >>
> >> Maybe I should add that sometimes the clash set to some remove. The
> >superhumans have become separated from the main branch of humanity, and
> >the clash is between the main branch and separated superhumans.
> >>
> >
> > Technically this is true for the Lensman series; even the
> >man-on-the-street in the Lensverse is far superior to the ordinary
> >person.

IDNR any evidence of that from the stories, though I grant it makes logical sense that some such trend ought to be in evidence, given the nature of the Arisian breeding project. But for the average L0 man on the street, I wouldn't think it would be very noticeable.

>
> > Of course, as Syndrome noted, "If everybody's super... NOBODY IS." That
> >is, if all of them are superhuman, you won't notice it much.


Which brings up the _Dune_ universe.

The breeding project of the Bene Gesserit, and later and more importantly of Leto II, has had exactly this effect by the last years of Leto's 3000 year reign. But it's true of _everybody_, or at least the aristocratic classes, and I suspect the commoners too, given Leto's goals. The average person thinks faster, is stronger, reacts faster, runs faster, has sharper senses, etc.

But it hardly ever shows up in the story, because _everybody_ has it. At one point, a ghola (a sort of clone) of a professional, very capable soldier from 3000 years earlier tries to attack a man of the latter age...to find himself so completely outclassed that it's humiliating. As that man suggests, with a bit of pity, "If you want to kill me, a knife in the back is your best bet. You _can't_ beat me fairly. You're an...older model."

(Paraphrasing, but that's the sense of it.)
David Johnston
2018-03-25 03:37:28 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On 2018-03-24 8:05 PM, Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor) wrote:
> On 3/23/18 3:15 AM, The Zygon wrote:
>> The idea of the superman pervades science fiction. But in most of the
>> stories I have read, the superhumans are evil in some way and need to
>> be destroyed. I have read very few in which all humans have become
>> superhuman, compared to humanity of today. I am interested in hearing
>> about stories which tackle this problem. That is, how to write a good
>> story where all humans are superhuman, and so the story is not about
>> the clash between the ordinary humans and superhumans.
>>
>> Maybe I should add that sometimes the clash set to some remove.  The
>> superhumans have become separated from the main branch of humanity,
>> and the clash is between the main branch and separated superhumans.
>>
>
>     Technically this is true for the Lensman series; even the
> man-on-the-street in the Lensverse is far superior to the ordinary
> person.

Who sez?
Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)
2018-03-27 11:34:39 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On 3/24/18 11:37 PM, David Johnston wrote:
> On 2018-03-24 8:05 PM, Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor) wrote:
>> On 3/23/18 3:15 AM, The Zygon wrote:
>>> The idea of the superman pervades science fiction. But in most of the
>>> stories I have read, the superhumans are evil in some way and need to
>>> be destroyed. I have read very few in which all humans have become
>>> superhuman, compared to humanity of today. I am interested in hearing
>>> about stories which tackle this problem. That is, how to write a good
>>> story where all humans are superhuman, and so the story is not about
>>> the clash between the ordinary humans and superhumans.
>>>
>>> Maybe I should add that sometimes the clash set to some remove. The
>>> superhumans have become separated from the main branch of humanity,
>>> and the clash is between the main branch and separated superhumans.
>>>
>>
>> Technically this is true for the Lensman series; even the
>> man-on-the-street in the Lensverse is far superior to the ordinary
>> person.
>
> Who sez?
>

Doc Smith. The Arisians are explicit that their breeding program is
raising the ENTIRE LEVEL of the species -- implying that eventually
(well after the end of the series) First-Stage Lensman might be most
men-on-the-street.


--
Sea Wasp
/^\
;;;
Website: http://www.grandcentralarena.com Blog:
http://seawasp.dreamwidth.org
The Zygon
2018-03-28 05:06:57 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On Tuesday, March 27, 2018 at 7:34:44 AM UTC-4, Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor) wrote:
> On 3/24/18 11:37 PM, David Johnston wrote:
> > On 2018-03-24 8:05 PM, Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor) wrote:
> >> On 3/23/18 3:15 AM, The Zygon wrote:
> >>> The idea of the superman pervades science fiction. But in most of the
> >>> stories I have read, the superhumans are evil in some way and need to
> >>> be destroyed. I have read very few in which all humans have become
> >>> superhuman, compared to humanity of today. I am interested in hearing
> >>> about stories which tackle this problem. That is, how to write a good
> >>> story where all humans are superhuman, and so the story is not about
> >>> the clash between the ordinary humans and superhumans.
> >>>
> >>> Maybe I should add that sometimes the clash set to some remove. The
> >>> superhumans have become separated from the main branch of humanity,
> >>> and the clash is between the main branch and separated superhumans.
> >>>
> >>
> >> Technically this is true for the Lensman series; even the
> >> man-on-the-street in the Lensverse is far superior to the ordinary
> >> person.
> >
> > Who sez?
> >
>
> Doc Smith. The Arisians are explicit that their breeding program is
> raising the ENTIRE LEVEL of the species -- implying that eventually
> (well after the end of the series) First-Stage Lensman might be most
> men-on-the-street.
>
>
> --
> Sea Wasp
> /^\
> ;;;
> Website: http://www.grandcentralarena.com Blog:
> http://seawasp.dreamwidth.org

Yes, I have read few stories in which the promise was that all (or almost all) men will be superhuman in the future. I can't remember too many, but _God Emperor of Dune_ had this same idea. One of "The Duncans" was called an "obsolete model".
David DeLaney
2018-04-02 09:52:12 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On 2018-03-28, The Zygon <***@gmail.com> wrote:
> Yes, I have read few stories in which the promise was that all (or almost
> all) men will be superhuman in the future. I can't remember too many, but
> _God Emperor of Dune_ had this same idea. One of "The Duncans" was called an
> "obsolete model".

In _Across Realtime_, Vinge, everyone still around after the Singularity had
access to at the very least bobble technology. The closer they had bobbled to
that date, the more brokenly higher-tech stuff they had with them.

Dave, the differing levels of tech drives a good chunk of the plot
--
\/David DeLaney posting thru EarthLink - "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
my gatekeeper archives are no longer accessible :( / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.
Johnny1A
2018-03-31 03:33:12 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On Tuesday, March 27, 2018 at 6:34:44 AM UTC-5, Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor) wrote:
> On 3/24/18 11:37 PM, David Johnston wrote:
> > On 2018-03-24 8:05 PM, Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor) wrote:
> >> On 3/23/18 3:15 AM, The Zygon wrote:
> >>> The idea of the superman pervades science fiction. But in most of the
> >>> stories I have read, the superhumans are evil in some way and need to
> >>> be destroyed. I have read very few in which all humans have become
> >>> superhuman, compared to humanity of today. I am interested in hearing
> >>> about stories which tackle this problem. That is, how to write a good
> >>> story where all humans are superhuman, and so the story is not about
> >>> the clash between the ordinary humans and superhumans.
> >>>
> >>> Maybe I should add that sometimes the clash set to some remove. The
> >>> superhumans have become separated from the main branch of humanity,
> >>> and the clash is between the main branch and separated superhumans.
> >>>
> >>
> >> Technically this is true for the Lensman series; even the
> >> man-on-the-street in the Lensverse is far superior to the ordinary
> >> person.
> >
> > Who sez?
> >
>
> Doc Smith. The Arisians are explicit that their breeding program is
> raising the ENTIRE LEVEL of the species -- implying that eventually
> (well after the end of the series) First-Stage Lensman might be most
> men-on-the-street.

True enough, and then at some point beyond that, Tellurians will be a race of Second-Stagers, and eventually, millions of years in the future, they'll reach Third Stage.

But at the time of _Children of the Lens_, there isn't much indication that the ability level of the average man of the street is much higher than it is during the World War.
Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)
2018-03-31 14:17:44 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On 3/30/18 11:33 PM, Johnny1A wrote:
> On Tuesday, March 27, 2018 at 6:34:44 AM UTC-5, Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor) wrote:
>> On 3/24/18 11:37 PM, David Johnston wrote:
>>> On 2018-03-24 8:05 PM, Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor) wrote:
>>>> On 3/23/18 3:15 AM, The Zygon wrote:
>>>>> The idea of the superman pervades science fiction. But in most of the
>>>>> stories I have read, the superhumans are evil in some way and need to
>>>>> be destroyed. I have read very few in which all humans have become
>>>>> superhuman, compared to humanity of today. I am interested in hearing
>>>>> about stories which tackle this problem. That is, how to write a good
>>>>> story where all humans are superhuman, and so the story is not about
>>>>> the clash between the ordinary humans and superhumans.
>>>>>
>>>>> Maybe I should add that sometimes the clash set to some remove. The
>>>>> superhumans have become separated from the main branch of humanity,
>>>>> and the clash is between the main branch and separated superhumans.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Technically this is true for the Lensman series; even the
>>>> man-on-the-street in the Lensverse is far superior to the ordinary
>>>> person.
>>>
>>> Who sez?
>>>
>>
>> Doc Smith. The Arisians are explicit that their breeding program is
>> raising the ENTIRE LEVEL of the species -- implying that eventually
>> (well after the end of the series) First-Stage Lensman might be most
>> men-on-the-street.
>
> True enough, and then at some point beyond that, Tellurians will be a race of Second-Stagers, and eventually, millions of years in the future, they'll reach Third Stage.
>
> But at the time of _Children of the Lens_, there isn't much indication that the ability level of the average man of the street is much higher than it is during the World War.
>

Humanity hadn't yet reached a level where it COULD produce
Lensman-grade people in the World War era. By Triplanetary and First
Lensman, it has. This implies a significant overall shift in the mental
and physical capabilities of humanity.

As I said in another post, the problem is "When everybody's super...
NOBODY will be." If all the people on the street are that much
badder-ass than everyone, how can you TELL? They'll all have the same
rough parity with each other and everything they do will be adjusted to
the current assumed abilities, etc.


--
Sea Wasp
/^\
;;;
Website: http://www.grandcentralarena.com Blog:
http://seawasp.dreamwidth.org
m***@sky.com
2018-03-31 15:50:30 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On Saturday, March 31, 2018 at 3:17:48 PM UTC+1, Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor) wrote:
> On 3/30/18 11:33 PM, Johnny1A wrote:
> > On Tuesday, March 27, 2018 at 6:34:44 AM UTC-5, Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor) wrote:
> >> On 3/24/18 11:37 PM, David Johnston wrote:
> >>> On 2018-03-24 8:05 PM, Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor) wrote:
> >>>> On 3/23/18 3:15 AM, The Zygon wrote:
> >>>>> The idea of the superman pervades science fiction. But in most of the
> >>>>> stories I have read, the superhumans are evil in some way and need to
> >>>>> be destroyed. I have read very few in which all humans have become
> >>>>> superhuman, compared to humanity of today. I am interested in hearing
> >>>>> about stories which tackle this problem. That is, how to write a good
> >>>>> story where all humans are superhuman, and so the story is not about
> >>>>> the clash between the ordinary humans and superhumans.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Maybe I should add that sometimes the clash set to some remove. The
> >>>>> superhumans have become separated from the main branch of humanity,
> >>>>> and the clash is between the main branch and separated superhumans.
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> Technically this is true for the Lensman series; even the
> >>>> man-on-the-street in the Lensverse is far superior to the ordinary
> >>>> person.
> >>>
> >>> Who sez?
> >>>
> >>
> >> Doc Smith. The Arisians are explicit that their breeding program is
> >> raising the ENTIRE LEVEL of the species -- implying that eventually
> >> (well after the end of the series) First-Stage Lensman might be most
> >> men-on-the-street.
> >
> > True enough, and then at some point beyond that, Tellurians will be a race of Second-Stagers, and eventually, millions of years in the future, they'll reach Third Stage.
> >
> > But at the time of _Children of the Lens_, there isn't much indication that the ability level of the average man of the street is much higher than it is during the World War.
> >
>
> Humanity hadn't yet reached a level where it COULD produce
> Lensman-grade people in the World War era. By Triplanetary and First
> Lensman, it has. This implies a significant overall shift in the mental
> and physical capabilities of humanity.
>
> As I said in another post, the problem is "When everybody's super...
> NOBODY will be." If all the people on the street are that much
> badder-ass than everyone, how can you TELL? They'll all have the same
> rough parity with each other and everything they do will be adjusted to
> the current assumed abilities, etc.
>
>
> --
> Sea Wasp
> /^\
> ;;;
> Website: http://www.grandcentralarena.com Blog:
> http://seawasp.dreamwidth.org

No (or very different) advertising bill-boards :-)
David DeLaney
2018-04-02 09:54:50 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On 2018-03-31, ***@sky.com <***@sky.com> wrote:
> Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor) wrote:
>> As I said in another post, the problem is "When everybody's super...
>> NOBODY will be." If all the people on the street are that much
>> badder-ass than everyone, how can you TELL? They'll all have the same
>> rough parity with each other and everything they do will be adjusted to
>> the current assumed abilities, etc.
>
> No (or very different) advertising bill-boards :-)

Inability to follow the ordinary conversations they're having in only slightly
modified English, because of too many shared advanced assumptions and too much
"fill in the gaps mentally" being employed.

Dave, this is also one way to winkle out whether someone is dramatically
higher-intelligence than you
--
\/David DeLaney posting thru EarthLink - "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
my gatekeeper archives are no longer accessible :( / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.
Ahasuerus
2018-03-31 16:40:30 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On Saturday, March 31, 2018 at 10:17:48 AM UTC-4, Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)
wrote:
[snip-snip]
> Humanity hadn't yet reached a level where it COULD produce
> Lensman-grade people in the World War era. By Triplanetary and First
> Lensman, it has. This implies a significant overall shift in the mental
> and physical capabilities of humanity. [snip]

Should we call the "Flynn effect" the "Smith effect" then?
Jack Bohn
2018-03-31 19:37:55 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Sea Wasp wrote:

>       As I said in another post, the problem is "When everybody's super... 
>NOBODY will be." If all the people on the street are that much 
>badder-ass than everyone, how can you TELL? They'll all have the same 
>rough parity with each other and everything they do will be adjusted to 
>the current assumed abilities, etc. 

When everyone can open the jar of pickles, we'll seal them even tighter!

--
-Jack
David Johnston
2018-03-31 20:05:26 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On 2018-03-31 8:17 AM, Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor) wrote:
> On 3/30/18 11:33 PM, Johnny1A wrote:
>> On Tuesday, March 27, 2018 at 6:34:44 AM UTC-5, Sea Wasp (Ryk E.
>> Spoor) wrote:
>>> On 3/24/18 11:37 PM, David Johnston wrote:
>>>> On 2018-03-24 8:05 PM, Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor) wrote:
>>>>> On 3/23/18 3:15 AM, The Zygon wrote:
>>>>>> The idea of the superman pervades science fiction. But in most of the
>>>>>> stories I have read, the superhumans are evil in some way and need to
>>>>>> be destroyed. I have read very few in which all humans have become
>>>>>> superhuman, compared to humanity of today. I am interested in hearing
>>>>>> about stories which tackle this problem. That is, how to write a good
>>>>>> story where all humans are superhuman, and so the story is not about
>>>>>> the clash between the ordinary humans and superhumans.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Maybe I should add that sometimes the clash set to some remove.  The
>>>>>> superhumans have become separated from the main branch of humanity,
>>>>>> and the clash is between the main branch and separated superhumans.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>      Technically this is true for the Lensman series; even the
>>>>> man-on-the-street in the Lensverse is far superior to the ordinary
>>>>> person.
>>>>
>>>> Who sez?
>>>>
>>>
>>>     Doc Smith. The Arisians are explicit that their breeding program is
>>> raising the ENTIRE LEVEL of the species -- implying that eventually
>>> (well after the end of the series) First-Stage Lensman might be most
>>> men-on-the-street.
>>
>> True enough, and then at some point beyond that, Tellurians will be a
>> race of Second-Stagers, and eventually, millions of years in the
>> future, they'll reach Third Stage.
>>
>> But at the time of _Children of the Lens_, there isn't much indication
>> that the ability level of the average man of the street is much higher
>> than it is during the World War.
>>
>
>     Humanity hadn't yet reached a level where it COULD produce
> Lensman-grade people in the World War era. By Triplanetary and First
> Lensman, it has. This implies a significant overall shift in the mental
> and physical capabilities of humanity.
>
>     As I said in another post, the problem is "When everybody's
> super... NOBODY will be." If all the people on the street are that much
> badder-ass than everyone, how can you TELL?

Mostly by having been shown to do things that are humanly impossible.
When an Amberite woman tosses a couch, or a Vatta's War character
accesses the cloud or manipulated their body chemistry with their brain
implant, or the New Kryptonians all commute by flying, then while what
they are doing may no longer be impressive in their culture the
difference between them and us is still clear.
Johnny1A
2018-04-02 02:42:36 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On Saturday, March 31, 2018 at 9:17:48 AM UTC-5, Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor) wrote:
> On 3/30/18 11:33 PM, Johnny1A wrote:
> > On Tuesday, March 27, 2018 at 6:34:44 AM UTC-5, Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor) wrote:
> >> On 3/24/18 11:37 PM, David Johnston wrote:
> >>> On 2018-03-24 8:05 PM, Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor) wrote:
> >>>> On 3/23/18 3:15 AM, The Zygon wrote:
> >>>>> The idea of the superman pervades science fiction. But in most of the
> >>>>> stories I have read, the superhumans are evil in some way and need to
> >>>>> be destroyed. I have read very few in which all humans have become
> >>>>> superhuman, compared to humanity of today. I am interested in hearing
> >>>>> about stories which tackle this problem. That is, how to write a good
> >>>>> story where all humans are superhuman, and so the story is not about
> >>>>> the clash between the ordinary humans and superhumans.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Maybe I should add that sometimes the clash set to some remove. The
> >>>>> superhumans have become separated from the main branch of humanity,
> >>>>> and the clash is between the main branch and separated superhumans.
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> Technically this is true for the Lensman series; even the
> >>>> man-on-the-street in the Lensverse is far superior to the ordinary
> >>>> person.
> >>>
> >>> Who sez?
> >>>
> >>
> >> Doc Smith. The Arisians are explicit that their breeding program is
> >> raising the ENTIRE LEVEL of the species -- implying that eventually
> >> (well after the end of the series) First-Stage Lensman might be most
> >> men-on-the-street.
> >
> > True enough, and then at some point beyond that, Tellurians will be a race of Second-Stagers, and eventually, millions of years in the future, they'll reach Third Stage.
> >
> > But at the time of _Children of the Lens_, there isn't much indication that the ability level of the average man of the street is much higher than it is during the World War.
> >
>
> Humanity hadn't yet reached a level where it COULD produce
> Lensman-grade people in the World War era. By Triplanetary and First
> Lensman, it has. This implies a significant overall shift in the mental
> and physical capabilities of humanity.

Certainly the Patrol is filled with such people. Thorndyke, Henderson, and vanBuskirk and the rest of the crew of the _Britainnia_, for ex, are definitely impressive people by today's standards. Of course, the selection process the Patrol uses tends to concentrate those people, too.
David Johnston
2018-04-02 03:22:48 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On 2018-04-01 8:42 PM, Johnny1A wrote:
> On Saturday, March 31, 2018 at 9:17:48 AM UTC-5, Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor) wrote:
>> On 3/30/18 11:33 PM, Johnny1A wrote:
>>> On Tuesday, March 27, 2018 at 6:34:44 AM UTC-5, Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor) wrote:
>>>> On 3/24/18 11:37 PM, David Johnston wrote:
>>>>> On 2018-03-24 8:05 PM, Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor) wrote:
>>>>>> On 3/23/18 3:15 AM, The Zygon wrote:
>>>>>>> The idea of the superman pervades science fiction. But in most of the
>>>>>>> stories I have read, the superhumans are evil in some way and need to
>>>>>>> be destroyed. I have read very few in which all humans have become
>>>>>>> superhuman, compared to humanity of today. I am interested in hearing
>>>>>>> about stories which tackle this problem. That is, how to write a good
>>>>>>> story where all humans are superhuman, and so the story is not about
>>>>>>> the clash between the ordinary humans and superhumans.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Maybe I should add that sometimes the clash set to some remove. The
>>>>>>> superhumans have become separated from the main branch of humanity,
>>>>>>> and the clash is between the main branch and separated superhumans.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Technically this is true for the Lensman series; even the
>>>>>> man-on-the-street in the Lensverse is far superior to the ordinary
>>>>>> person.
>>>>>
>>>>> Who sez?
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Doc Smith. The Arisians are explicit that their breeding program is
>>>> raising the ENTIRE LEVEL of the species -- implying that eventually
>>>> (well after the end of the series) First-Stage Lensman might be most
>>>> men-on-the-street.
>>>
>>> True enough, and then at some point beyond that, Tellurians will be a race of Second-Stagers, and eventually, millions of years in the future, they'll reach Third Stage.
>>>
>>> But at the time of _Children of the Lens_, there isn't much indication that the ability level of the average man of the street is much higher than it is during the World War.
>>>
>>
>> Humanity hadn't yet reached a level where it COULD produce
>> Lensman-grade people in the World War era. By Triplanetary and First
>> Lensman, it has. This implies a significant overall shift in the mental
>> and physical capabilities of humanity.
>
> Certainly the Patrol is filled with such people. Thorndyke, Henderson, and vanBuskirk and the rest of the crew of the _Britainnia_, for ex, are definitely impressive people by today's standards. Of course, the selection process the Patrol uses tends to concentrate those people, too.
>
>
>
>

Yeah, the elite of a gigantic population are going to special even if
the average isn't.
Ted Nolan <tednolan>
2018-04-02 03:57:52 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
In article <p9s7m8$1ouh$***@gioia.aioe.org>,
David Johnston <***@yahoo.com> wrote:
>On 2018-04-01 8:42 PM, Johnny1A wrote:
>> On Saturday, March 31, 2018 at 9:17:48 AM UTC-5, Sea Wasp (Ryk E.
>Spoor) wrote:
>>> On 3/30/18 11:33 PM, Johnny1A wrote:
>>>> On Tuesday, March 27, 2018 at 6:34:44 AM UTC-5, Sea Wasp (Ryk E.
>Spoor) wrote:
>>>>> On 3/24/18 11:37 PM, David Johnston wrote:
>>>>>> On 2018-03-24 8:05 PM, Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor) wrote:
>>>>>>> On 3/23/18 3:15 AM, The Zygon wrote:
>>>>>>>> The idea of the superman pervades science fiction. But in most of the
>>>>>>>> stories I have read, the superhumans are evil in some way and need to
>>>>>>>> be destroyed. I have read very few in which all humans have become
>>>>>>>> superhuman, compared to humanity of today. I am interested in hearing
>>>>>>>> about stories which tackle this problem. That is, how to write a good
>>>>>>>> story where all humans are superhuman, and so the story is not about
>>>>>>>> the clash between the ordinary humans and superhumans.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Maybe I should add that sometimes the clash set to some remove. The
>>>>>>>> superhumans have become separated from the main branch of humanity,
>>>>>>>> and the clash is between the main branch and separated superhumans.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Technically this is true for the Lensman series; even the
>>>>>>> man-on-the-street in the Lensverse is far superior to the ordinary
>>>>>>> person.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Who sez?
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Doc Smith. The Arisians are explicit that their breeding program is
>>>>> raising the ENTIRE LEVEL of the species -- implying that eventually
>>>>> (well after the end of the series) First-Stage Lensman might be most
>>>>> men-on-the-street.
>>>>
>>>> True enough, and then at some point beyond that, Tellurians will be
>a race of Second-Stagers, and eventually, millions of years in the
>future, they'll reach Third Stage.
>>>>
>>>> But at the time of _Children of the Lens_, there isn't much
>indication that the ability level of the average man of the street is
>much higher than it is during the World War.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Humanity hadn't yet reached a level where it COULD produce
>>> Lensman-grade people in the World War era. By Triplanetary and First
>>> Lensman, it has. This implies a significant overall shift in the mental
>>> and physical capabilities of humanity.
>>
>> Certainly the Patrol is filled with such people. Thorndyke,
>Henderson, and vanBuskirk and the rest of the crew of the _Britainnia_,
>for ex, are definitely impressive people by today's standards. Of
>course, the selection process the Patrol uses tends to concentrate those
>people, too.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>Yeah, the elite of a gigantic population are going to special even if
>the average isn't.

The Centran High Council, for example.
--
------
columbiaclosings.com
What's not in Columbia anymore..
Lynn McGuire
2018-03-26 20:36:44 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On 3/23/2018 2:15 AM, The Zygon wrote:
> The idea of the superman pervades science fiction. But in most of the stories I have read, the superhumans are evil in some way and need to be destroyed. I have read very few in which all humans have become superhuman, compared to humanity of today. I am interested in hearing about stories which tackle this problem. That is, how to write a good story where all humans are superhuman, and so the story is not about the clash between the ordinary humans and superhumans.
>
> Maybe I should add that sometimes the clash set to some remove. The superhumans have become separated from the main branch of humanity, and the clash is between the main branch and separated superhumans.

Of course, there is David Weber's Dahak series in which the super humans
are made, not born. The super humans are rewired, reskinned, remuscled,
and implanted with various items such as a 30 minute oxygen supply, a
subspace communicator, and a super computer. The net effect is a
lifespan of 600 years and very difficult to kill. And there are
different levels of super humans, bridge officer is the highest in the
Empire.
https://www.amazon.com/Mutineers-Moon-Dahak-David-Weber/dp/0671720856/

David Weber even states that Adolf Hitler was a super human since he
survived the bomb blast without a scratch.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/20_July_plot

Lynn
Peter Trei
2018-03-26 21:15:59 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On Monday, March 26, 2018 at 4:36:50 PM UTC-4, Lynn McGuire wrote:
> On 3/23/2018 2:15 AM, The Zygon wrote:
> > The idea of the superman pervades science fiction. But in most of the stories I have read, the superhumans are evil in some way and need to be destroyed. I have read very few in which all humans have become superhuman, compared to humanity of today. I am interested in hearing about stories which tackle this problem. That is, how to write a good story where all humans are superhuman, and so the story is not about the clash between the ordinary humans and superhumans.
> >
> > Maybe I should add that sometimes the clash set to some remove. The superhumans have become separated from the main branch of humanity, and the clash is between the main branch and separated superhumans.
>
> Of course, there is David Weber's Dahak series in which the super humans
> are made, not born. The super humans are rewired, reskinned, remuscled,
> and implanted with various items such as a 30 minute oxygen supply, a
> subspace communicator, and a super computer. The net effect is a
> lifespan of 600 years and very difficult to kill. And there are
> different levels of super humans, bridge officer is the highest in the
> Empire.
> https://www.amazon.com/Mutineers-Moon-Dahak-David-Weber/dp/0671720856/
>
> David Weber even states that Adolf Hitler was a super human since he
> survived the bomb blast without a scratch.
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/20_July_plot

The reference you give actually says Hitler had minor injures, including
a perforated eardrum. Most people in the room came out OK.

pt
Lynn McGuire
2018-03-26 21:22:31 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On 3/26/2018 4:15 PM, Peter Trei wrote:
> On Monday, March 26, 2018 at 4:36:50 PM UTC-4, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>> On 3/23/2018 2:15 AM, The Zygon wrote:
>>> The idea of the superman pervades science fiction. But in most of the stories I have read, the superhumans are evil in some way and need to be destroyed. I have read very few in which all humans have become superhuman, compared to humanity of today. I am interested in hearing about stories which tackle this problem. That is, how to write a good story where all humans are superhuman, and so the story is not about the clash between the ordinary humans and superhumans.
>>>
>>> Maybe I should add that sometimes the clash set to some remove. The superhumans have become separated from the main branch of humanity, and the clash is between the main branch and separated superhumans.
>>
>> Of course, there is David Weber's Dahak series in which the super humans
>> are made, not born. The super humans are rewired, reskinned, remuscled,
>> and implanted with various items such as a 30 minute oxygen supply, a
>> subspace communicator, and a super computer. The net effect is a
>> lifespan of 600 years and very difficult to kill. And there are
>> different levels of super humans, bridge officer is the highest in the
>> Empire.
>> https://www.amazon.com/Mutineers-Moon-Dahak-David-Weber/dp/0671720856/
>>
>> David Weber even states that Adolf Hitler was a super human since he
>> survived the bomb blast without a scratch.
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/20_July_plot
>
> The reference you give actually says Hitler had minor injures, including
> a perforated eardrum. Most people in the room came out OK.
>
> pt

"without a scratch" was a euphemism. I should have said "without any
serious injuries". Having a bomb go off at your feet without any
serious injuries is amazing.

Lynn
Dimensional Traveler
2018-03-26 21:34:58 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On 3/26/2018 2:22 PM, Lynn McGuire wrote:
> On 3/26/2018 4:15 PM, Peter Trei wrote:
>> On Monday, March 26, 2018 at 4:36:50 PM UTC-4, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>>> On 3/23/2018 2:15 AM, The Zygon wrote:
>>>> The idea of the superman pervades science fiction. But in most of
>>>> the stories I have read, the superhumans are evil in some way and
>>>> need to be destroyed. I have read very few in which all humans have
>>>> become superhuman, compared to humanity of today. I am interested in
>>>> hearing about stories which tackle this problem. That is, how to
>>>> write a good story where all humans are superhuman, and so the story
>>>> is not about the clash between the ordinary humans and superhumans.
>>>>
>>>> Maybe I should add that sometimes the clash set to some remove.  The
>>>> superhumans have become separated from the main branch of humanity,
>>>> and the clash is between the main branch and separated superhumans.
>>>
>>> Of course, there is David Weber's Dahak series in which the super humans
>>> are made, not born.  The super humans are rewired, reskinned, remuscled,
>>> and implanted with various items such as a 30 minute oxygen supply, a
>>> subspace communicator, and a super computer.  The net effect is a
>>> lifespan of 600 years and very difficult to kill.  And there are
>>> different levels of super humans, bridge officer is the highest in the
>>> Empire.
>>>
>>> https://www.amazon.com/Mutineers-Moon-Dahak-David-Weber/dp/0671720856/
>>>
>>> David Weber even states that Adolf Hitler was a super human since he
>>> survived the bomb blast without a scratch.
>>>      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/20_July_plot
>>
>> The reference you give actually says Hitler had minor injures, including
>> a perforated eardrum. Most people in the room came out OK.
>>
>> pt
>
> "without a scratch" was a euphemism.  I should have said "without any
> serious injuries".  Having a bomb go off at your feet without any
> serious injuries is amazing.
>
It didn't go off at his feet. It was a small bomb to begin with and got
moved from under Hitler's end of the heavy, thick table to the far end
before it detonated.


--
Inquiring minds want to know while minds with a self-preservation
instinct are running screaming.
Robert Carnegie
2018-03-26 21:25:45 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
On Monday, 26 March 2018 21:36:50 UTC+1, Lynn McGuire wrote:
> On 3/23/2018 2:15 AM, The Zygon wrote:
> > The idea of the superman pervades science fiction. But in most of the stories I have read, the superhumans are evil in some way and need to be destroyed. I have read very few in which all humans have become superhuman, compared to humanity of today. I am interested in hearing about stories which tackle this problem. That is, how to write a good story where all humans are superhuman, and so the story is not about the clash between the ordinary humans and superhumans.
> >
> > Maybe I should add that sometimes the clash set to some remove. The superhumans have become separated from the main branch of humanity, and the clash is between the main branch and separated superhumans.
>
> Of course, there is David Weber's Dahak series in which the super humans
> are made, not born. The super humans are rewired, reskinned, remuscled,
> and implanted with various items such as a 30 minute oxygen supply, a
> subspace communicator, and a super computer. The net effect is

Opioid dependency?

> lifespan of 600 years and very difficult to kill. And there are
> different levels of super humans, bridge officer is the highest in the
> Empire.
> https://www.amazon.com/Mutineers-Moon-Dahak-David-Weber/dp/0671720856/

Is "Redshirt" some way lower? ;-)

> David Weber even states that Adolf Hitler was a super human since he
> survived the bomb blast without a scratch.
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/20_July_plot
>
> Lynn
Lynn McGuire
2018-03-26 21:28:37 UTC
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On 3/26/2018 4:25 PM, Robert Carnegie wrote:
> On Monday, 26 March 2018 21:36:50 UTC+1, Lynn McGuire wrote:
>> On 3/23/2018 2:15 AM, The Zygon wrote:
>>> The idea of the superman pervades science fiction. But in most of the stories I have read, the superhumans are evil in some way and need to be destroyed. I have read very few in which all humans have become superhuman, compared to humanity of today. I am interested in hearing about stories which tackle this problem. That is, how to write a good story where all humans are superhuman, and so the story is not about the clash between the ordinary humans and superhumans.
>>>
>>> Maybe I should add that sometimes the clash set to some remove. The superhumans have become separated from the main branch of humanity, and the clash is between the main branch and separated superhumans.
>>
>> Of course, there is David Weber's Dahak series in which the super humans
>> are made, not born. The super humans are rewired, reskinned, remuscled,
>> and implanted with various items such as a 30 minute oxygen supply, a
>> subspace communicator, and a super computer. The net effect is
>
> Opioid dependency?
>
>> lifespan of 600 years and very difficult to kill. And there are
>> different levels of super humans, bridge officer is the highest in the
>> Empire.
>> https://www.amazon.com/Mutineers-Moon-Dahak-David-Weber/dp/0671720856/
>
> Is "Redshirt" some way lower? ;-)
>
>> David Weber even states that Adolf Hitler was a super human since he
>> survived the bomb blast without a scratch.
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/20_July_plot
>>
>> Lynn

Heh.

Lynn
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