Discussion:
Konstantine Bothari and Amos Burton
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Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
2021-04-22 22:49:37 UTC
Permalink
I am certain I am not the only person to have noticed the
similiarities between these two characters. Both can reasonably be
described as monsters, both have some degree of awareness of their
monstrousness, and both rely on what one fan (of The Expanse)
called a "prostethic conscience" - a leader figure - to help them
tell right from wrong when they can't do so themselves (which is
often, in both cases). And both thus fit firmly into the pigeonhole
of "He's a monster, but he's *our* monster."

It's not an uncommon archtype. At its heart, the archtype is an
acknowledgement of the social nature of humans, which through
evolution has given us a strong genetic disposition towards
cooperative societies, enforced at the most basic level by things
like guilt and shame. But sometimes, even the most civilized
society *needs* an individual member who is not subject to this
genetic programming; someone who will "do what needs to be done"
even when "normal" people simply cannot. In short, psychos who
kill, maim, or otherwise inflict harm without hesitation -
monsters.

The similarities go beyond the archtype. Both are sons of
prostitutes, whose own mothers sold them into prostitution
themselves - until they were big enough to say no. Both grow as
characters through the course of the books, Bothari by choosing a
mistress (Cordelia) who expects him to be a better person, so
better he must be, and Amos through long term exposure to Holden
and simply learning, at a conscious level (there being no
subconsicous level that ever will), what other people see as right
and wrong.

But there are differences, too. Bothari literally gets off on
killing - "better than sex" - while Amos apparenlty feels nothing
at all - while killing, or while doing much of anything else.
Bothari has had his mind tampered with to the point where there are
large gaps in his memory, while Amos remembers everything he's done
and everything done to him. Bothari aspires to meet the
expectations of his master, while Amos seems to want, first and
formost, to not be put down as a rabid dog, but secondarily, wants
to be a better person than he knows he is (if only to enhance his
chances of survival). In the end, Bothari only finds his redemption
in death, while Amos finds his in being able to (try to) guide
another sociopath ("Peaches") to a more socially acceptable
standard of behavior. (Of course, we don't have Amos' end yet,
there still being one more novel to come.)
--
Terry Austin

Proof that Alan Baker is a liar and a fool, and even stupider than
Lynn:
https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/stats/sw-border-migration
(May 2019 total for people arrested for entering the United States
illegally is over 132,000 for just the southwest border.)

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB
Lynn McGuire
2021-04-22 23:12:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
I am certain I am not the only person to have noticed the
similiarities between these two characters. Both can reasonably be
described as monsters, both have some degree of awareness of their
monstrousness, and both rely on what one fan (of The Expanse)
called a "prostethic conscience" - a leader figure - to help them
tell right from wrong when they can't do so themselves (which is
often, in both cases). And both thus fit firmly into the pigeonhole
of "He's a monster, but he's *our* monster."
It's not an uncommon archtype. At its heart, the archtype is an
acknowledgement of the social nature of humans, which through
evolution has given us a strong genetic disposition towards
cooperative societies, enforced at the most basic level by things
like guilt and shame. But sometimes, even the most civilized
society *needs* an individual member who is not subject to this
genetic programming; someone who will "do what needs to be done"
even when "normal" people simply cannot. In short, psychos who
kill, maim, or otherwise inflict harm without hesitation -
monsters.
The similarities go beyond the archtype. Both are sons of
prostitutes, whose own mothers sold them into prostitution
themselves - until they were big enough to say no. Both grow as
characters through the course of the books, Bothari by choosing a
mistress (Cordelia) who expects him to be a better person, so
better he must be, and Amos through long term exposure to Holden
and simply learning, at a conscious level (there being no
subconsicous level that ever will), what other people see as right
and wrong.
But there are differences, too. Bothari literally gets off on
killing - "better than sex" - while Amos apparenlty feels nothing
at all - while killing, or while doing much of anything else.
Bothari has had his mind tampered with to the point where there are
large gaps in his memory, while Amos remembers everything he's done
and everything done to him. Bothari aspires to meet the
expectations of his master, while Amos seems to want, first and
formost, to not be put down as a rabid dog, but secondarily, wants
to be a better person than he knows he is (if only to enhance his
chances of survival). In the end, Bothari only finds his redemption
in death, while Amos finds his in being able to (try to) guide
another sociopath ("Peaches") to a more socially acceptable
standard of behavior. (Of course, we don't have Amos' end yet,
there still being one more novel to come.)
Amos Burton is a way better person than Sgt. Bothari. Way better. And
far less tortured to as Sgt. Bothari was used as a rapist by the crown
prince.

Lynn
Rick Bates
2021-06-07 01:04:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
I am certain I am not the only person to have noticed the
similiarities between these two characters. Both can reasonably be
described as monsters, both have some degree of awareness of their
monstrousness, and both rely on what one fan (of The Expanse)
called a "prostethic conscience" - a leader figure - to help them
tell right from wrong when they can't do so themselves (which is
often, in both cases). And both thus fit firmly into the pigeonhole
of "He's a monster, but he's *our* monster."
It's not an uncommon archtype. At its heart, the archtype is an
acknowledgement of the social nature of humans, which through
evolution has given us a strong genetic disposition towards
cooperative societies, enforced at the most basic level by things
like guilt and shame. But sometimes, even the most civilized
society *needs* an individual member who is not subject to this
genetic programming; someone who will "do what needs to be done"
even when "normal" people simply cannot. In short, psychos who
kill, maim, or otherwise inflict harm without hesitation -
monsters.
The similarities go beyond the archtype. Both are sons of
prostitutes, whose own mothers sold them into prostitution
themselves - until they were big enough to say no. Both grow as
characters through the course of the books, Bothari by choosing a
mistress (Cordelia) who expects him to be a better person, so
better he must be, and Amos through long term exposure to Holden
and simply learning, at a conscious level (there being no
subconsicous level that ever will), what other people see as right
and wrong.
But there are differences, too. Bothari literally gets off on
killing - "better than sex" - while Amos apparenlty feels nothing
at all - while killing, or while doing much of anything else.
Bothari has had his mind tampered with to the point where there are
large gaps in his memory, while Amos remembers everything he's done
and everything done to him. Bothari aspires to meet the
expectations of his master, while Amos seems to want, first and
formost, to not be put down as a rabid dog, but secondarily, wants
to be a better person than he knows he is (if only to enhance his
chances of survival). In the end, Bothari only finds his redemption
in death, while Amos finds his in being able to (try to) guide
another sociopath ("Peaches") to a more socially acceptable
standard of behavior. (Of course, we don't have Amos' end yet,
there still being one more novel to come.)
--
Terry Austin
Proof that Alan Baker is a liar and a fool, and even stupider than
https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/stats/sw-border-migration
(May 2019 total for people arrested for entering the United States
illegally is over 132,000 for just the southwest border.)
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB
Yes totally agree ... it's an interesting archetype and very popular with readers and viewers ... "I am that man!'.

There are many other aspects of the Vorkosigan Saga that the Expanse has also borrowed ...
Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
2021-06-07 15:29:30 UTC
Permalink
On Friday, April 23, 2021 at 8:49:42 AM UTC+10, Jibini Kula
Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
I am certain I am not the only person to have noticed the
similiarities between these two characters. Both can reasonably
be described as monsters, both have some degree of awareness of
their monstrousness, and both rely on what one fan (of The
Expanse) called a "prostethic conscience" - a leader figure -
to help them tell right from wrong when they can't do so
themselves (which is often, in both cases). And both thus fit
firmly into the pigeonhole of "He's a monster, but he's *our*
monster."
It's not an uncommon archtype. At its heart, the archtype is an
acknowledgement of the social nature of humans, which through
evolution has given us a strong genetic disposition towards
cooperative societies, enforced at the most basic level by
things like guilt and shame. But sometimes, even the most
civilized society *needs* an individual member who is not
subject to this genetic programming; someone who will "do what
needs to be done" even when "normal" people simply cannot. In
short, psychos who kill, maim, or otherwise inflict harm
without hesitation - monsters.
The similarities go beyond the archtype. Both are sons of
prostitutes, whose own mothers sold them into prostitution
themselves - until they were big enough to say no. Both grow as
characters through the course of the books, Bothari by choosing
a mistress (Cordelia) who expects him to be a better person, so
better he must be, and Amos through long term exposure to
Holden and simply learning, at a conscious level (there being
no subconsicous level that ever will), what other people see as
right and wrong.
But there are differences, too. Bothari literally gets off on
killing - "better than sex" - while Amos apparenlty feels
nothing at all - while killing, or while doing much of anything
else. Bothari has had his mind tampered with to the point where
there are large gaps in his memory, while Amos remembers
everything he's done and everything done to him. Bothari
aspires to meet the expectations of his master, while Amos
seems to want, first and formost, to not be put down as a rabid
dog, but secondarily, wants to be a better person than he knows
he is (if only to enhance his chances of survival). In the end,
Bothari only finds his redemption in death, while Amos finds
his in being able to (try to) guide another sociopath
("Peaches") to a more socially acceptable standard of behavior.
(Of course, we don't have Amos' end yet, there still being one
more novel to come.)
--
Terry Austin
Proof that Alan Baker is a liar and a fool, and even stupider
https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/stats/sw-border-migration
(May 2019 total for people arrested for entering the United
States illegally is over 132,000 for just the southwest
border.)
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB
Yes totally agree ... it's an interesting archetype and very
popular with readers and viewers ... "I am that man!'.
There are many other aspects of the Vorkosigan Saga that the
Expanse has also borrowed ...
I doubt it's "boorowed" so much as "isnpired by common sources in
traditional storytelling."

But if they are directly borrowed, at least they borrowed from the
best.
--
Terry Austin

Proof that Alan Baker is a liar and a fool, and even stupider than
Lynn:
https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/stats/sw-border-migration
(May 2019 total for people arrested for entering the United States
illegally is over 132,000 for just the southwest border.)

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB
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