Discussion:
Do SF fans prefer fantasy over reality?
(too old to reply)
a***@gmail.com
2020-03-21 19:46:57 UTC
Permalink
Reading SF can be an escape from reality. Those with boring work or family lives, can, for example, imagine leading an exploratory mission, whether in a mediaeval world or interstellar civilization.

But SF serves multiple purposes. It explores ideas in fictional worlds. It explores facts too dangerous or unbelievable to be studied in factual books.

But I believe that most people use SF as an escape from reality. Because in the fantasy world, you can be the hero who defeats the villains, and gets the woman. SF plots can be much more complex, but you get my point.

Abhinav Lal

"Imagination is more important than knowledge"
Quadibloc
2020-03-22 12:01:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by a***@gmail.com
Reading SF can be an escape from reality. Those with boring work or family
lives, can, for example, imagine leading an exploratory mission, whether in a
mediaeval world or interstellar civilization.
But SF serves multiple purposes. It explores ideas in fictional worlds. It
explores facts too dangerous or unbelievable to be studied in factual books.
But I believe that most people use SF as an escape from reality. Because in the
fantasy world, you can be the hero who defeats the villains, and gets the woman.
SF plots can be much more complex, but you get my point.
Back in the 1960s, this was a very live topic.

The kind of science fiction that explored ideas - overpopulation, destructive
weaponry, new powers to control the mind - and their consequences was seen as
the justification for science fiction, while escapist kid stuff was responsible
for the low repute of the genre.

Today, John W. Campbell has passed away, and the glory days of science fiction
publishing have passed as well.

So the fact that there are very different kinds of books still called science
fiction is no longer much of a big deal in our 500-channel universe.

As for preferring fantasy to reality... well, why not? Right now, reality isn't
looking very promising.

John Savard
Lynn McGuire
2020-03-24 00:48:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by a***@gmail.com
Reading SF can be an escape from reality. Those with boring work or family lives, can, for example, imagine leading an exploratory mission, whether in a mediaeval world or interstellar civilization.
But SF serves multiple purposes. It explores ideas in fictional worlds. It explores facts too dangerous or unbelievable to be studied in factual books.
But I believe that most people use SF as an escape from reality. Because in the fantasy world, you can be the hero who defeats the villains, and gets the woman. SF plots can be much more complex, but you get my point.
Abhinav Lal
"Imagination is more important than knowledge"
Space Opera Rules !

Lynn
Chrysi Cat
2020-03-24 01:33:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lynn McGuire
Reading SF can be an escape from reality.  Those with boring work or
family lives, can, for example, imagine leading an exploratory
mission, whether in a mediaeval world or interstellar civilization.
But SF serves multiple purposes.  It explores ideas in fictional
worlds.  It explores facts too dangerous or unbelievable to be studied
in factual books.
But I believe that most people use SF as an escape from reality.
Because in the fantasy world, you can be the hero who defeats the
villains, and gets the woman.  SF plots can be much more complex, but
you get my point.
Abhinav Lal
"Imagination is more important than knowledge"
Space Opera Rules !
Lynn
Says the guy who was spending most of his free time in the 8 months
leading up to an apocalyptic pandemic reading post-apocalyptic
Dominionist wankfests.
--
Chrysi Cat
1/2 anthrocat, nearly 1/2 anthrofox, all magical
Transgoddess, quick to anger.
Call me Chrysi or call me Kat, I'll respond to either!
Lynn McGuire
2020-03-24 01:55:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chrysi Cat
Post by Lynn McGuire
Reading SF can be an escape from reality.  Those with boring work or
family lives, can, for example, imagine leading an exploratory
mission, whether in a mediaeval world or interstellar civilization.
But SF serves multiple purposes.  It explores ideas in fictional
worlds.  It explores facts too dangerous or unbelievable to be
studied in factual books.
But I believe that most people use SF as an escape from reality.
Because in the fantasy world, you can be the hero who defeats the
villains, and gets the woman.  SF plots can be much more complex, but
you get my point.
Abhinav Lal
"Imagination is more important than knowledge"
Space Opera Rules !
Lynn
Says the guy who was spending most of his free time in the 8 months
leading up to an apocalyptic pandemic reading post-apocalyptic
Dominionist wankfests.
I'd like to see your actual analysis of that. Excel spreadsheet please.
I'll give you a clue though, I spent a lot of time from Sep 12, 2019
to Feb 6, 2020 rebuilding a used house for my family. And packing my
books and other precious crap. In fact, I will make it real easy, here
is my review list for the last 18+ years.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/profile/amzn1.account.AHV2C7F5C3SWNVJAYRZOU7ORTWYA/

And I am not sure I want to know what "Dominionist" means.

Lynn
Dorothy J Heydt
2020-03-24 02:54:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by Chrysi Cat
Post by Lynn McGuire
Reading SF can be an escape from reality.  Those with boring work or
family lives, can, for example, imagine leading an exploratory
mission, whether in a mediaeval world or interstellar civilization.
But SF serves multiple purposes.  It explores ideas in fictional
worlds.  It explores facts too dangerous or unbelievable to be
studied in factual books.
But I believe that most people use SF as an escape from reality.
Because in the fantasy world, you can be the hero who defeats the
villains, and gets the woman.  SF plots can be much more complex, but
you get my point.
Abhinav Lal
"Imagination is more important than knowledge"
Space Opera Rules !
Lynn
Says the guy who was spending most of his free time in the 8 months
leading up to an apocalyptic pandemic reading post-apocalyptic
Dominionist wankfests.
I'd like to see your actual analysis of that. Excel spreadsheet please.
I'll give you a clue though, I spent a lot of time from Sep 12, 2019
to Feb 6, 2020 rebuilding a used house for my family. And packing my
books and other precious crap. In fact, I will make it real easy, here
is my review list for the last 18+ years.
https://www.amazon.com/gp/profile/amzn1.account.AHV2C7F5C3SWNVJAYRZOU7ORTWYA/
And I am not sure I want to know what "Dominionist" means.
"Dominion theology (also known as dominionism) is a group of
Christian political ideologies that seek to institute a nation
governed by Christians based on their understandings of biblical
law. Extents of rule and ways of achieving governing authority
are varied."

I just bet they are.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/
Kevrob
2020-03-24 03:21:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by Chrysi Cat
Post by Lynn McGuire
Reading SF can be an escape from reality.  Those with boring work or
family lives, can, for example, imagine leading an exploratory
mission, whether in a mediaeval world or interstellar civilization.
But SF serves multiple purposes.  It explores ideas in fictional
worlds.  It explores facts too dangerous or unbelievable to be
studied in factual books.
But I believe that most people use SF as an escape from reality.
Because in the fantasy world, you can be the hero who defeats the
villains, and gets the woman.  SF plots can be much more complex, but
you get my point.
Abhinav Lal
"Imagination is more important than knowledge"
Space Opera Rules !
Lynn
Says the guy who was spending most of his free time in the 8 months
leading up to an apocalyptic pandemic reading post-apocalyptic
Dominionist wankfests.
I'd like to see your actual analysis of that. Excel spreadsheet please.
I'll give you a clue though, I spent a lot of time from Sep 12, 2019
to Feb 6, 2020 rebuilding a used house for my family. And packing my
books and other precious crap. In fact, I will make it real easy, here
is my review list for the last 18+ years.
https://www.amazon.com/gp/profile/amzn1.account.AHV2C7F5C3SWNVJAYRZOU7ORTWYA/
And I am not sure I want to know what "Dominionist" means.
"Dominion theology (also known as dominionism) is a group of
Christian political ideologies that seek to institute a nation
governed by Christians based on their understandings of biblical
law. Extents of rule and ways of achieving governing authority
are varied."
I just bet they are.
Have you read Ruzh'Doonie's "trunk book,"
"Jem'Hadar for Jeez'Uz!"...? :)

--
Kevin R
a.a #2310
Dorothy J Heydt
2020-03-24 04:14:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kevrob
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by Chrysi Cat
Post by Lynn McGuire
Reading SF can be an escape from reality.  Those with boring work or
family lives, can, for example, imagine leading an exploratory
mission, whether in a mediaeval world or interstellar civilization.
But SF serves multiple purposes.  It explores ideas in fictional
worlds.  It explores facts too dangerous or unbelievable to be
studied in factual books.
But I believe that most people use SF as an escape from reality.
Because in the fantasy world, you can be the hero who defeats the
villains, and gets the woman.  SF plots can be much more complex, but
you get my point.
Abhinav Lal
"Imagination is more important than knowledge"
Space Opera Rules !
Lynn
Says the guy who was spending most of his free time in the 8 months
leading up to an apocalyptic pandemic reading post-apocalyptic
Dominionist wankfests.
I'd like to see your actual analysis of that. Excel spreadsheet please.
I'll give you a clue though, I spent a lot of time from Sep 12, 2019
to Feb 6, 2020 rebuilding a used house for my family. And packing my
books and other precious crap. In fact, I will make it real easy, here
is my review list for the last 18+ years.
https://www.amazon.com/gp/profile/amzn1.account.AHV2C7F5C3SWNVJAYRZOU7ORTWYA/
And I am not sure I want to know what "Dominionist" means.
"Dominion theology (also known as dominionism) is a group of
Christian political ideologies that seek to institute a nation
governed by Christians based on their understandings of biblical
law. Extents of rule and ways of achieving governing authority
are varied."
I just bet they are.
Have you read Ruzh'Doonie's "trunk book,"
"Jem'Hadar for Jeez'Uz!"...? :)
No, nor do I plan to.

Googled the name, still don't plan to.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/
Lynn McGuire
2020-03-24 03:25:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by Chrysi Cat
Post by Lynn McGuire
Reading SF can be an escape from reality.  Those with boring work or
family lives, can, for example, imagine leading an exploratory
mission, whether in a mediaeval world or interstellar civilization.
But SF serves multiple purposes.  It explores ideas in fictional
worlds.  It explores facts too dangerous or unbelievable to be
studied in factual books.
But I believe that most people use SF as an escape from reality.
Because in the fantasy world, you can be the hero who defeats the
villains, and gets the woman.  SF plots can be much more complex, but
you get my point.
Abhinav Lal
"Imagination is more important than knowledge"
Space Opera Rules !
Lynn
Says the guy who was spending most of his free time in the 8 months
leading up to an apocalyptic pandemic reading post-apocalyptic
Dominionist wankfests.
I'd like to see your actual analysis of that. Excel spreadsheet please.
I'll give you a clue though, I spent a lot of time from Sep 12, 2019
to Feb 6, 2020 rebuilding a used house for my family. And packing my
books and other precious crap. In fact, I will make it real easy, here
is my review list for the last 18+ years.
https://www.amazon.com/gp/profile/amzn1.account.AHV2C7F5C3SWNVJAYRZOU7ORTWYA/
And I am not sure I want to know what "Dominionist" means.
"Dominion theology (also known as dominionism) is a group of
Christian political ideologies that seek to institute a nation
governed by Christians based on their understandings of biblical
law. Extents of rule and ways of achieving governing authority
are varied."
I just bet they are.
I have no desire to live in a theocracy. They always go bad. Horribly
bad. Pournelle's Iron Law of Bureaucracy applies especially hard here.
https://www.jerrypournelle.com/reports/jerryp/iron.html

Lynn
Paul S Person
2020-03-24 16:50:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by Chrysi Cat
Post by Lynn McGuire
Reading SF can be an escape from reality.  Those with boring work or
family lives, can, for example, imagine leading an exploratory
mission, whether in a mediaeval world or interstellar civilization.
But SF serves multiple purposes.  It explores ideas in fictional
worlds.  It explores facts too dangerous or unbelievable to be
studied in factual books.
But I believe that most people use SF as an escape from reality.
Because in the fantasy world, you can be the hero who defeats the
villains, and gets the woman.  SF plots can be much more complex, but
you get my point.
Abhinav Lal
"Imagination is more important than knowledge"
Space Opera Rules !
Lynn
Says the guy who was spending most of his free time in the 8 months
leading up to an apocalyptic pandemic reading post-apocalyptic
Dominionist wankfests.
I'd like to see your actual analysis of that. Excel spreadsheet please.
I'll give you a clue though, I spent a lot of time from Sep 12, 2019
to Feb 6, 2020 rebuilding a used house for my family. And packing my
books and other precious crap. In fact, I will make it real easy, here
is my review list for the last 18+ years.
https://www.amazon.com/gp/profile/amzn1.account.AHV2C7F5C3SWNVJAYRZOU7ORTWYA/
And I am not sure I want to know what "Dominionist" means.
"Dominion theology (also known as dominionism) is a group of
Christian political ideologies that seek to institute a nation
governed by Christians based on their understandings of biblical
law. Extents of rule and ways of achieving governing authority
are varied."
I just bet they are.
Well, of course they vary.

They fall within a more general group, the one to which the saying:

"Everyone is damned but thee and me ... and sometimes I have my doubts
about thee"

applies.
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."
Kevrob
2020-03-24 17:33:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paul S Person
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by Chrysi Cat
Post by Lynn McGuire
Reading SF can be an escape from reality.  Those with boring work or
family lives, can, for example, imagine leading an exploratory
mission, whether in a mediaeval world or interstellar civilization.
But SF serves multiple purposes.  It explores ideas in fictional
worlds.  It explores facts too dangerous or unbelievable to be
studied in factual books.
But I believe that most people use SF as an escape from reality.
Because in the fantasy world, you can be the hero who defeats the
villains, and gets the woman.  SF plots can be much more complex, but
you get my point.
Abhinav Lal
"Imagination is more important than knowledge"
Space Opera Rules !
Lynn
Says the guy who was spending most of his free time in the 8 months
leading up to an apocalyptic pandemic reading post-apocalyptic
Dominionist wankfests.
I'd like to see your actual analysis of that. Excel spreadsheet please.
I'll give you a clue though, I spent a lot of time from Sep 12, 2019
to Feb 6, 2020 rebuilding a used house for my family. And packing my
books and other precious crap. In fact, I will make it real easy, here
is my review list for the last 18+ years.
https://www.amazon.com/gp/profile/amzn1.account.AHV2C7F5C3SWNVJAYRZOU7ORTWYA/
And I am not sure I want to know what "Dominionist" means.
"Dominion theology (also known as dominionism) is a group of
Christian political ideologies that seek to institute a nation
governed by Christians based on their understandings of biblical
law. Extents of rule and ways of achieving governing authority
are varied."
I just bet they are.
Well, of course they vary.
"Everyone is damned but thee and me ... and sometimes I have my doubts
about thee"
applies.
I first heard about theonomy...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theonomy

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_reconstructionism

...when it turned out that Marilyn Quayle's Dad was a
Rushdoony fan. DQ was an idiot. MQ was smart, and people
feared she'd be a Dominionist Lady MacBeth, had Bush 41
died in office. She'd be a sort of "alernate universe"
Hilary Rodham.

Kevin R
a.a #2310
Paul S Person
2020-03-25 17:02:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kevrob
Post by Paul S Person
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by Chrysi Cat
Post by Lynn McGuire
Reading SF can be an escape from reality.  Those with boring work or
family lives, can, for example, imagine leading an exploratory
mission, whether in a mediaeval world or interstellar civilization.
But SF serves multiple purposes.  It explores ideas in fictional
worlds.  It explores facts too dangerous or unbelievable to be
studied in factual books.
But I believe that most people use SF as an escape from reality.
Because in the fantasy world, you can be the hero who defeats the
villains, and gets the woman.  SF plots can be much more complex, but
you get my point.
Abhinav Lal
"Imagination is more important than knowledge"
Space Opera Rules !
Lynn
Says the guy who was spending most of his free time in the 8 months
leading up to an apocalyptic pandemic reading post-apocalyptic
Dominionist wankfests.
I'd like to see your actual analysis of that. Excel spreadsheet please.
I'll give you a clue though, I spent a lot of time from Sep 12, 2019
to Feb 6, 2020 rebuilding a used house for my family. And packing my
books and other precious crap. In fact, I will make it real easy, here
is my review list for the last 18+ years.
https://www.amazon.com/gp/profile/amzn1.account.AHV2C7F5C3SWNVJAYRZOU7ORTWYA/
And I am not sure I want to know what "Dominionist" means.
"Dominion theology (also known as dominionism) is a group of
Christian political ideologies that seek to institute a nation
governed by Christians based on their understandings of biblical
law. Extents of rule and ways of achieving governing authority
are varied."
I just bet they are.
Well, of course they vary.
"Everyone is damned but thee and me ... and sometimes I have my doubts
about thee"
applies.
I first heard about theonomy...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theonomy
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_reconstructionism
...when it turned out that Marilyn Quayle's Dad was a
Rushdoony fan. DQ was an idiot. MQ was smart, and people
feared she'd be a Dominionist Lady MacBeth, had Bush 41
died in office. She'd be a sort of "alernate universe"
Hilary Rodham.
His main qualification for VP, however, was that he could safely be
paired with the elder Bush.

Anyone else would have immediately inverted the ticket, and Bush
wasn't interested in being VP again.
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."
Kevrob
2020-03-25 18:43:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paul S Person
Post by Kevrob
I first heard about theonomy...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theonomy
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_reconstructionism
...when it turned out that Marilyn Quayle's Dad was a
Rushdoony fan. DQ was an idiot. MQ was smart, and people
feared she'd be a Dominionist Lady MacBeth, had Bush 41
died in office. She'd be a sort of "alernate universe"
Hilary Rodham.
His main qualification for VP, however, was that he could safely be
paired with the elder Bush.
Anyone else would have immediately inverted the ticket, and Bush
wasn't interested in being VP again.
Bush 41 was not considered "sound" by the GOP social cons,
and the economic conservatives were steamed at him for
buckling on his "no new taxes" pledge. He consulted supply-
side gurus Jude Wanniski and Arthur Laffer, for instance.

Any of his advantages were nullified by his tendency to
chew his Allen Edmonds in view of the cameras. :)

Kevin R
Dorothy J Heydt
2020-03-25 20:07:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kevrob
Post by Paul S Person
Post by Kevrob
I first heard about theonomy...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theonomy
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_reconstructionism
...when it turned out that Marilyn Quayle's Dad was a
Rushdoony fan. DQ was an idiot. MQ was smart, and people
feared she'd be a Dominionist Lady MacBeth, had Bush 41
died in office. She'd be a sort of "alernate universe"
Hilary Rodham.
His main qualification for VP, however, was that he could safely be
paired with the elder Bush.
Anyone else would have immediately inverted the ticket, and Bush
wasn't interested in being VP again.
Bush 41 was not considered "sound" by the GOP social cons,
and the economic conservatives were steamed at him for
buckling on his "no new taxes" pledge. He consulted supply-
side gurus Jude Wanniski and Arthur Laffer, for instance.
Any of his advantages were nullified by his tendency to
chew his Allen Edmonds in view of the cameras. :)
/googles

It's a shoe. Is this an obscure way of saying he opened his
mouth and put his foot in it?
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/
Kevrob
2020-03-26 21:17:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Kevrob
Any of his advantages were nullified by his tendency to
chew his Allen Edmonds in view of the cameras. :)
/googles
It's a shoe. Is this an obscure way of saying he opened his
mouth and put his foot in it?
Quite. AEs are not just shoes. They are non-cheapo dress shoes,
made in Wisconsin, and one of the firms still making a product like
that in the USA. Pols like to wear them as they can claim to be
"supporting the American worker." From that era I could have
name-checked Johnston & Murphy, as Tom Wolfe did in "The Bonfire of
The Vanities." Their manufacture has since been moved offshore.

https://www.usalovelist.com/mens-dress-shoes-made-in-usa/


Kevin R
William Hyde
2020-03-24 19:05:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by a***@gmail.com
Reading SF can be an escape from reality. Those with boring work or family lives, can, for example, imagine leading an exploratory mission, whether in a mediaeval world or interstellar civilization.
But SF serves multiple purposes. It explores ideas in fictional worlds. It explores facts too dangerous or unbelievable to be studied in factual books.
But I believe that most people use SF as an escape from reality. Because in the fantasy world, you can be the hero who defeats the villains, and gets the woman. SF plots can be much more complex, but you get my point.
Abhinav Lal
"Imagination is more important than knowledge"
Space Opera Rules !
It's one of my favourite subgenres. Done well, it's a joy, done badly, a serious bore.

And Mil-SF posing as space opera is a crime in itself.

William Hyde
Lynn McGuire
2020-03-24 19:08:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by William Hyde
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by a***@gmail.com
Reading SF can be an escape from reality. Those with boring work or family lives, can, for example, imagine leading an exploratory mission, whether in a mediaeval world or interstellar civilization.
But SF serves multiple purposes. It explores ideas in fictional worlds. It explores facts too dangerous or unbelievable to be studied in factual books.
But I believe that most people use SF as an escape from reality. Because in the fantasy world, you can be the hero who defeats the villains, and gets the woman. SF plots can be much more complex, but you get my point.
Abhinav Lal
"Imagination is more important than knowledge"
Space Opera Rules !
It's one of my favourite subgenres. Done well, it's a joy, done badly, a serious bore.
And Mil-SF posing as space opera is a crime in itself.
William Hyde
Do you have a specific example ? I am not sure about the crossover
between the two as it is huge to me.

Lynn
Dorothy J Heydt
2020-03-24 19:51:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by a***@gmail.com
Post by William Hyde
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by a***@gmail.com
Reading SF can be an escape from reality. Those with boring work or
family lives, can, for example, imagine leading an exploratory mission,
whether in a mediaeval world or interstellar civilization.
Post by William Hyde
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by a***@gmail.com
But SF serves multiple purposes. It explores ideas in fictional
worlds. It explores facts too dangerous or unbelievable to be studied
in factual books.
Post by William Hyde
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by a***@gmail.com
But I believe that most people use SF as an escape from reality.
Because in the fantasy world, you can be the hero who defeats the
villains, and gets the woman. SF plots can be much more complex, but
you get my point.
Post by William Hyde
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by a***@gmail.com
Abhinav Lal
"Imagination is more important than knowledge"
Space Opera Rules !
It's one of my favourite subgenres. Done well, it's a joy, done
badly, a serious bore.
Post by William Hyde
And Mil-SF posing as space opera is a crime in itself.
William Hyde
Do you have a specific example ?
Well, Weber is the one I know about.
Post by a***@gmail.com
I am not sure about the crossover
between the two as it is huge to me.
I would suggest that both are about magnificent deeds done in
outer space, but space opera concentrates on the heroes and their
heroism, whereas milSF concentrates on the lovely, intricate,
sexy (in the eyes of some) technology.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/
Dorothy J Heydt
2020-03-24 19:24:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by a***@gmail.com
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by a***@gmail.com
Reading SF can be an escape from reality. Those with boring work or
family lives, can, for example, imagine leading an exploratory mission,
whether in a mediaeval world or interstellar civilization.
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by a***@gmail.com
But SF serves multiple purposes. It explores ideas in fictional
worlds. It explores facts too dangerous or unbelievable to be studied
in factual books.
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by a***@gmail.com
But I believe that most people use SF as an escape from reality.
Because in the fantasy world, you can be the hero who defeats the
villains, and gets the woman. SF plots can be much more complex, but
you get my point.
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by a***@gmail.com
Abhinav Lal
"Imagination is more important than knowledge"
Space Opera Rules !
It's one of my favourite subgenres. Done well, it's a joy, done badly, a serious bore.
And Mil-SF posing as space opera is a crime in itself.
What my son calls "spaceship porn."

I have, somewhere saved to disk, a parody of a Weber battle
scene, which as action begins suddenly shifts to the history of
the development of one of the technological marvels in use, and
after a couple of paragraphs says ~"...and the battle seems to be
over, but it was grand and glorious..."~

If I could find it, I'd quote it, but so far it has resisted all
the powers of grep.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/
William Hyde
2020-03-25 19:51:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by a***@gmail.com
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by a***@gmail.com
Reading SF can be an escape from reality. Those with boring work or
family lives, can, for example, imagine leading an exploratory mission,
whether in a mediaeval world or interstellar civilization.
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by a***@gmail.com
But SF serves multiple purposes. It explores ideas in fictional
worlds. It explores facts too dangerous or unbelievable to be studied
in factual books.
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by a***@gmail.com
But I believe that most people use SF as an escape from reality.
Because in the fantasy world, you can be the hero who defeats the
villains, and gets the woman. SF plots can be much more complex, but
you get my point.
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by a***@gmail.com
Abhinav Lal
"Imagination is more important than knowledge"
Space Opera Rules !
It's one of my favourite subgenres. Done well, it's a joy, done badly, a serious bore.
And Mil-SF posing as space opera is a crime in itself.
What my son calls "spaceship porn."
I have, somewhere saved to disk, a parody of a Weber battle
scene, which as action begins suddenly shifts to the history of
the development of one of the technological marvels in use, and
after a couple of paragraphs says ~"...and the battle seems to be
over, but it was grand and glorious..."~
If I could find it, I'd quote it, but so far it has resisted all
the powers of grep.
Of course military action is common in space opera. Quite a few battle scenes, and discussion of battle tactics, in WJW's "Praxis" series. Difficult to pinpoint just where it goes over the top for me. Depends on the skill of the writer, of course.

A space-operaish book that I have touted here off and on is Edmund Hamilton's "Battle for the Stars". Despite the (inapt) title, there are only two military actions in it, one rather brief. Hamilton changed his writing considerably in the early 60s, but only a few critics notice.

William Hyde
Titus G
2020-05-16 22:06:50 UTC
Permalink
On 26/03/20 8:51 am, William Hyde wrote in Re: Do SF fans prefer fantasy
over reality? :
snip
Post by William Hyde
Of course military action is common in space opera. Quite a few
battle scenes, and discussion of battle tactics, in WJW's "Praxis"
series. Difficult to pinpoint just where it goes over the top for
me. Depends on the skill of the writer, of course.
A space-operaish book that I have touted here off and on is Edmund
Hamilton's "Battle for the Stars". Despite the (inapt) title, there
are only two military actions in it, one rather brief. Hamilton
changed his writing considerably in the early 60s, but only a few
critics notice.
This was nowhere near the quality of others that you have recommended
such as Amis' Alteratiion or the Deptford Trilogy. To me it read like a
Boys' Adventure story and was pretty lightweight compared to such as the
Praxis series. It was OK but am not planning on reading more of his.
Dorothy J Heydt
2020-05-16 22:22:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by Titus G
On 26/03/20 8:51 am, William Hyde wrote in Re: Do SF fans prefer fantasy
snip
Post by William Hyde
Of course military action is common in space opera. Quite a few
battle scenes, and discussion of battle tactics, in WJW's "Praxis"
series. Difficult to pinpoint just where it goes over the top for
me. Depends on the skill of the writer, of course.
A space-operaish book that I have touted here off and on is Edmund
Hamilton's "Battle for the Stars". Despite the (inapt) title, there
are only two military actions in it, one rather brief. Hamilton
changed his writing considerably in the early 60s, but only a few
critics notice.
This was nowhere near the quality of others that you have recommended
such as Amis' Alteratiion or the Deptford Trilogy. To me it read like a
Boys' Adventure story and was pretty lightweight compared to such as the
Praxis series. It was OK but am not planning on reading more of his.
Hamilton's dates are 1904-1977. He cannot be faulted for writing
space opera.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/
Robert Woodward
2020-05-17 05:11:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Titus G
On 26/03/20 8:51 am, William Hyde wrote in Re: Do SF fans prefer fantasy
snip
Post by William Hyde
Of course military action is common in space opera. Quite a few
battle scenes, and discussion of battle tactics, in WJW's "Praxis"
series. Difficult to pinpoint just where it goes over the top for
me. Depends on the skill of the writer, of course.
A space-operaish book that I have touted here off and on is Edmund
Hamilton's "Battle for the Stars". Despite the (inapt) title, there
are only two military actions in it, one rather brief. Hamilton
changed his writing considerably in the early 60s, but only a few
critics notice.
This was nowhere near the quality of others that you have recommended
such as Amis' Alteratiion or the Deptford Trilogy. To me it read like a
Boys' Adventure story and was pretty lightweight compared to such as the
Praxis series. It was OK but am not planning on reading more of his.
Hamilton's dates are 1904-1977. He cannot be faulted for writing
space opera.
IMHO, he was more influential in its development than E. E. "Doc" Smith.
--
"We have advanced to new and surprising levels of bafflement."
Imperial Auditor Miles Vorkosigan describes progress in _Komarr_.
‹-----------------------------------------------------
Robert Woodward ***@drizzle.com
Ted Nolan <tednolan>
2020-05-17 06:49:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robert Woodward
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Titus G
On 26/03/20 8:51 am, William Hyde wrote in Re: Do SF fans prefer fantasy
snip
Post by William Hyde
Of course military action is common in space opera. Quite a few
battle scenes, and discussion of battle tactics, in WJW's "Praxis"
series. Difficult to pinpoint just where it goes over the top for
me. Depends on the skill of the writer, of course.
A space-operaish book that I have touted here off and on is Edmund
Hamilton's "Battle for the Stars". Despite the (inapt) title, there
are only two military actions in it, one rather brief. Hamilton
changed his writing considerably in the early 60s, but only a few
critics notice.
This was nowhere near the quality of others that you have recommended
such as Amis' Alteratiion or the Deptford Trilogy. To me it read like a
Boys' Adventure story and was pretty lightweight compared to such as the
Praxis series. It was OK but am not planning on reading more of his.
Hamilton's dates are 1904-1977. He cannot be faulted for writing
space opera.
IMHO, he was more influential in its development than E. E. "Doc" Smith.
I guess you could make that argument. I mean he did develop things
like a multi-species space patrol before Smith. It's a controversial
argument though as it's hard to say something is more influential than
the first book of the genre, which _Skylark_ was.
--
columbiaclosings.com
What's not in Columbia anymore..
Titus G
2020-05-18 03:52:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Post by Robert Woodward
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Titus G
On 26/03/20 8:51 am, William Hyde wrote in Re: Do SF fans
prefer fantasy over reality? : snip
Post by William Hyde
Of course military action is common in space opera. Quite a
few battle scenes, and discussion of battle tactics, in
WJW's "Praxis" series. Difficult to pinpoint just where it
goes over the top for me. Depends on the skill of the
writer, of course.
A space-operaish book that I have touted here off and on is
Edmund Hamilton's "Battle for the Stars". Despite the
(inapt) title, there are only two military actions in it,
one rather brief. Hamilton changed his writing considerably
in the early 60s, but only a few critics notice.
This was nowhere near the quality of others that you have
recommended such as Amis' Alteratiion or the Deptford Trilogy.
To me it read like a Boys' Adventure story and was pretty
lightweight compared to such as the Praxis series. It was OK
but am not planning on reading more of his.
Hamilton's dates are 1904-1977. He cannot be faulted for writing
space opera.
IMHO, he was more influential in its development than E. E. "Doc" Smith.
I guess you could make that argument. I mean he did develop things
like a multi-species space patrol before Smith. It's a controversial
argument though as it's hard to say something is more influential
than the first book of the genre, which _Skylark_ was.
My comments were made on the basis of the final product with no
allowance for its age or contribution to development of the sub genre.
It was a pleasant change to escape the theme of impossible physical
performance when injured and the gross violence that seems to be an
integral part of most of the Fantasy I have been reading.
Robert Woodward
2020-05-18 05:11:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Post by Robert Woodward
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Titus G
On 26/03/20 8:51 am, William Hyde wrote in Re: Do SF fans prefer fantasy
snip
Post by William Hyde
Of course military action is common in space opera. Quite a few
battle scenes, and discussion of battle tactics, in WJW's "Praxis"
series. Difficult to pinpoint just where it goes over the top for
me. Depends on the skill of the writer, of course.
A space-operaish book that I have touted here off and on is Edmund
Hamilton's "Battle for the Stars". Despite the (inapt) title, there
are only two military actions in it, one rather brief. Hamilton
changed his writing considerably in the early 60s, but only a few
critics notice.
This was nowhere near the quality of others that you have recommended
such as Amis' Alteratiion or the Deptford Trilogy. To me it read like a
Boys' Adventure story and was pretty lightweight compared to such as the
Praxis series. It was OK but am not planning on reading more of his.
Hamilton's dates are 1904-1977. He cannot be faulted for writing
space opera.
IMHO, he was more influential in its development than E. E. "Doc" Smith.
I guess you could make that argument. I mean he did develop things
like a multi-species space patrol before Smith. It's a controversial
argument though as it's hard to say something is more influential than
the first book of the genre, which _Skylark_ was.
The first Interstellar Patrol story ("Crashing Suns") appeared in Weird
Tales in the same month that _Skylark of Space_ appeared in Amazing
Stories. So, declaring _Skylark..._ as the first is a bit iffy (true,
the first draft was written almost a decade earlier). Besides,
_Skylark.._ was the first Superscience story and was in many ways an
Edisonade (as was much of the early John W. Campbell).
--
"We have advanced to new and surprising levels of bafflement."
Imperial Auditor Miles Vorkosigan describes progress in _Komarr_.
‹-----------------------------------------------------
Robert Woodward ***@drizzle.com
William Hyde
2020-05-17 22:27:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Titus G
On 26/03/20 8:51 am, William Hyde wrote in Re: Do SF fans prefer fantasy
snip
Post by William Hyde
Of course military action is common in space opera. Quite a few
battle scenes, and discussion of battle tactics, in WJW's "Praxis"
series. Difficult to pinpoint just where it goes over the top for
me. Depends on the skill of the writer, of course.
A space-operaish book that I have touted here off and on is Edmund
Hamilton's "Battle for the Stars". Despite the (inapt) title, there
are only two military actions in it, one rather brief. Hamilton
changed his writing considerably in the early 60s, but only a few
critics notice.
This was nowhere near the quality of others that you have recommended
such as Amis' Alteratiion or the Deptford Trilogy. To me it read like a
Boys' Adventure story and was pretty lightweight compared to such as the
Praxis series. It was OK but am not planning on reading more of his.
Hamilton's dates are 1904-1977. He cannot be faulted for writing
space opera.
Most of his work I find all but unreadable. I wonder what made him change his style? Perhaps he just wanted to show he could do it.

Moskowitz implied somewhere that Hamilton felt trapped for much of his career, and gave the public what they wanted. Perhaps by his late 50s he was financially secure enough to try something a little different.

William Hyde
William Hyde
2020-05-17 22:23:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Titus G
On 26/03/20 8:51 am, William Hyde wrote in Re: Do SF fans prefer fantasy
snip
Post by William Hyde
Of course military action is common in space opera. Quite a few
battle scenes, and discussion of battle tactics, in WJW's "Praxis"
series. Difficult to pinpoint just where it goes over the top for
me. Depends on the skill of the writer, of course.
A space-operaish book that I have touted here off and on is Edmund
Hamilton's "Battle for the Stars". Despite the (inapt) title, there
are only two military actions in it, one rather brief. Hamilton
changed his writing considerably in the early 60s, but only a few
critics notice.
This was nowhere near the quality of others that you have recommended
such as Amis' Alteratiion or the Deptford Trilogy. To me it read like a
Boys' Adventure story and was pretty lightweight compared to such as the
Praxis series. It was OK but am not planning on reading more of his.
Oh, I agree utterly. But compared to the books Hamilton wrote for most of his life, it's remarkable. I should perhaps have been more clear.

There are, I believe, two more novels and some short stories in this vein, of which I've read only one of the stories. It's been 55 years, perhaps I should get a move on.

As a young lad, the idea that the commander of a mighty space fleet might have doubts was new to me. And that is friend, protector, and boss might turn out to be neither friend nor protector, but a scheming villain was another.

William Hyde
Titus G
2020-05-19 22:20:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by William Hyde
Post by Titus G
On 26/03/20 8:51 am, William Hyde wrote in Re: Do SF fans prefer
fantasy over reality? : snip
Post by William Hyde
Of course military action is common in space opera. Quite a few
battle scenes, and discussion of battle tactics, in WJW's
"Praxis" series. Difficult to pinpoint just where it goes over
the top for me. Depends on the skill of the writer, of course.
A space-operaish book that I have touted here off and on is
Edmund Hamilton's "Battle for the Stars". Despite the (inapt)
title, there are only two military actions in it, one rather
brief. Hamilton changed his writing considerably in the early
60s, but only a few critics notice.
This was nowhere near the quality of others that you have
recommended such as Amis' Alteratiion or the Deptford Trilogy. To
me it read like a Boys' Adventure story and was pretty lightweight
compared to such as the Praxis series. It was OK but am not
planning on reading more of his.
Oh, I agree utterly. But compared to the books Hamilton wrote for
most of his life, it's remarkable. I should perhaps have been more
clear.
Next time :-)
But having never heard of Hamilton before, it is my background that is
remiss as I now know of his place in SF history.
Post by William Hyde
There are, I believe, two more novels and some short stories in this
vein, of which I've read only one of the stories. It's been 55
years, perhaps I should get a move on.
As a young lad, the idea that the commander of a mighty space fleet
might have doubts was new to me. And that is friend, protector, and
boss might turn out to be neither friend nor protector, but a
scheming villain was another.
William Hyde
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