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[tears] Pavane by Keith Roberts
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James Nicoll
2021-08-08 13:25:03 UTC
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Pavane by Keith Roberts

https://jamesdavisnicoll.com/review/darkness-be-over-me
--
My reviews can be found at http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/
My tor pieces at https://www.tor.com/author/james-davis-nicoll/
My Dreamwidth at https://james-davis-nicoll.dreamwidth.org/
My patreon is at https://www.patreon.com/jamesdnicoll
Kevrob
2021-08-11 04:53:01 UTC
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Post by James Nicoll
Pavane by Keith Roberts
https://jamesdavisnicoll.com/review/darkness-be-over-me
--
If the Church can meddle with the past well enough to avert
Global Nuclear War, why not reach back further? Convincing
the first humans to not commit Original Sin would have been
top of my to-do list - unless that's just a story.
--
Kevin R
James Nicoll
2021-08-11 13:28:18 UTC
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Post by Kevrob
Post by James Nicoll
Pavane by Keith Roberts
https://jamesdavisnicoll.com/review/darkness-be-over-me
--
If the Church can meddle with the past well enough to avert
Global Nuclear War, why not reach back further? Convincing
the first humans to not commit Original Sin would have been
top of my to-do list - unless that's just a story.
No time travel involved and it's the Fair Folk shaping the
next cycle.
--
My reviews can be found at http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/
My tor pieces at https://www.tor.com/author/james-davis-nicoll/
My Dreamwidth at https://james-davis-nicoll.dreamwidth.org/
My patreon is at https://www.patreon.com/jamesdnicoll
Robert Carnegie
2021-08-11 15:34:23 UTC
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Post by James Nicoll
Post by Kevrob
Post by James Nicoll
Pavane by Keith Roberts
https://jamesdavisnicoll.com/review/darkness-be-over-me
--
If the Church can meddle with the past well enough to avert
Global Nuclear War, why not reach back further? Convincing
the first humans to not commit Original Sin would have been
top of my to-do list - unless that's just a story.
No time travel involved and it's the Fair Folk shaping the
next cycle.
Well, then, is it definitely Time running in a circle and
inevitably re-creating Dorset, or could they be talking
about the previous fall of Roman Britain, or of Atlantis?

John Christopher's _The Prince in Waiting_ has English
people living medievally but occasionally tripping over
twentieth century stuff - which is to be destroyed - and
with a qualified acceptance of the atomically deformed.
It's one of "those" futures.
James Nicoll
2021-08-12 00:32:18 UTC
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Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by James Nicoll
Post by Kevrob
Post by James Nicoll
Pavane by Keith Roberts
https://jamesdavisnicoll.com/review/darkness-be-over-me
--
If the Church can meddle with the past well enough to avert
Global Nuclear War, why not reach back further? Convincing
the first humans to not commit Original Sin would have been
top of my to-do list - unless that's just a story.
No time travel involved and it's the Fair Folk shaping the
next cycle.
Well, then, is it definitely Time running in a circle and
inevitably re-creating Dorset, or could they be talking
about the previous fall of Roman Britain, or of Atlantis?
Unclear.
--
My reviews can be found at http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/
My tor pieces at https://www.tor.com/author/james-davis-nicoll/
My Dreamwidth at https://james-davis-nicoll.dreamwidth.org/
My patreon is at https://www.patreon.com/jamesdnicoll
David Johnston
2021-08-13 03:04:59 UTC
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Post by Kevrob
Post by James Nicoll
Pavane by Keith Roberts
https://jamesdavisnicoll.com/review/darkness-be-over-me
--
If the Church can meddle with the past well enough to avert
Global Nuclear War, why not reach back further? Convincing
the first humans to not commit Original Sin would have been
top of my to-do list - unless that's just a story.
...you can't actually prevent children from growing up and discovering
sexual attraction. Unless you just kill them first.
Ted Nolan <tednolan>
2021-08-13 03:19:14 UTC
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Permalink
Post by David Johnston
Post by Kevrob
Post by James Nicoll
Pavane by Keith Roberts
https://jamesdavisnicoll.com/review/darkness-be-over-me
--
If the Church can meddle with the past well enough to avert
Global Nuclear War, why not reach back further? Convincing
the first humans to not commit Original Sin would have been
top of my to-do list - unless that's just a story.
...you can't actually prevent children from growing up and discovering
sexual attraction. Unless you just kill them first.
"Paging Larry Niven, white courtesy phone.."
--
columbiaclosings.com
What's not in Columbia anymore..
Paul S Person
2021-08-13 16:08:43 UTC
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On Thu, 12 Aug 2021 21:04:59 -0600, David Johnston
Post by David Johnston
Post by Kevrob
Post by James Nicoll
Pavane by Keith Roberts
https://jamesdavisnicoll.com/review/darkness-be-over-me
--
If the Church can meddle with the past well enough to avert
Global Nuclear War, why not reach back further? Convincing
the first humans to not commit Original Sin would have been
top of my to-do list - unless that's just a story.
...you can't actually prevent children from growing up and discovering
sexual attraction. Unless you just kill them first.
Pre-Fall -- /what/ sexual attraction?

Prevent the Fall (that is, the Original Sin) and who knows what might
happen next?
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."
Kevrob
2021-08-13 22:27:43 UTC
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Post by Paul S Person
On Thu, 12 Aug 2021 21:04:59 -0600, David Johnston
Post by David Johnston
Post by Kevrob
Post by James Nicoll
Pavane by Keith Roberts
https://jamesdavisnicoll.com/review/darkness-be-over-me
--
If the Church can meddle with the past well enough to avert
Global Nuclear War, why not reach back further? Convincing
the first humans to not commit Original Sin would have been
top of my to-do list - unless that's just a story.
...you can't actually prevent children from growing up and discovering
sexual attraction. Unless you just kill them first.
I agree, if we are allowed to discount the mythology of the
Old and New Testaments. If Roberts does, that's an author's
privilege.
Post by Paul S Person
Pre-Fall -- /what/ sexual attraction?
A&E could have been feeling it, but not understanding what it was.
After they nibbled that fruit, though?
Post by Paul S Person
Prevent the Fall (that is, the Original Sin) and who knows what might
happen next?
--
Vaal must be fed....
--
Kevin R
J. Clarke
2021-08-14 00:01:24 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Kevrob
Post by Paul S Person
On Thu, 12 Aug 2021 21:04:59 -0600, David Johnston
Post by David Johnston
Post by Kevrob
Post by James Nicoll
Pavane by Keith Roberts
https://jamesdavisnicoll.com/review/darkness-be-over-me
--
If the Church can meddle with the past well enough to avert
Global Nuclear War, why not reach back further? Convincing
the first humans to not commit Original Sin would have been
top of my to-do list - unless that's just a story.
...you can't actually prevent children from growing up and discovering
sexual attraction. Unless you just kill them first.
I agree, if we are allowed to discount the mythology of the
Old and New Testaments. If Roberts does, that's an author's
privilege.
Post by Paul S Person
Pre-Fall -- /what/ sexual attraction?
A&E could have been feeling it, but not understanding what it was.
After they nibbled that fruit, though?
They might not have understood what it was but I'm pretty sure that
after a while they'd figure it out.
Post by Kevrob
Post by Paul S Person
Prevent the Fall (that is, the Original Sin) and who knows what might
happen next?
--
Vaal must be fed....
Kevrob
2021-08-14 01:44:59 UTC
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Post by J. Clarke
Post by Kevrob
Post by Paul S Person
On Thu, 12 Aug 2021 21:04:59 -0600, David Johnston
Post by David Johnston
Post by Kevrob
Post by James Nicoll
Pavane by Keith Roberts
https://jamesdavisnicoll.com/review/darkness-be-over-me
--
If the Church can meddle with the past well enough to avert
Global Nuclear War, why not reach back further? Convincing
the first humans to not commit Original Sin would have been
top of my to-do list - unless that's just a story.
...you can't actually prevent children from growing up and discovering
sexual attraction. Unless you just kill them first.
I agree, if we are allowed to discount the mythology of the
Old and New Testaments. If Roberts does, that's an author's
privilege.
Post by Paul S Person
Pre-Fall -- /what/ sexual attraction?
A&E could have been feeling it, but not understanding what it was.
After they nibbled that fruit, though?
They might not have understood what it was but I'm pretty sure that
after a while they'd figure it out.
We (Catholic school kids), when the controversy over teaching
public school children "The Facts of Life" in the gubmint schools,
used to joke that in order to prevent teenage pregnancy, such things
should be taught.....but taught _wrong_.

[No, I didn't think that would work, either.]
Post by J. Clarke
Post by Kevrob
Post by Paul S Person
Prevent the Fall (that is, the Original Sin) and who knows what might
happen next?
--
Vaal must be fed....
--
Kevin R
Paul S Person
2021-08-14 17:27:39 UTC
Reply
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On Fri, 13 Aug 2021 20:01:24 -0400, J. Clarke
Post by J. Clarke
Post by Kevrob
Post by Paul S Person
On Thu, 12 Aug 2021 21:04:59 -0600, David Johnston
Post by David Johnston
Post by Kevrob
Post by James Nicoll
Pavane by Keith Roberts
https://jamesdavisnicoll.com/review/darkness-be-over-me
--
If the Church can meddle with the past well enough to avert
Global Nuclear War, why not reach back further? Convincing
the first humans to not commit Original Sin would have been
top of my to-do list - unless that's just a story.
...you can't actually prevent children from growing up and discovering
sexual attraction. Unless you just kill them first.
I agree, if we are allowed to discount the mythology of the
Old and New Testaments. If Roberts does, that's an author's
privilege.
Post by Paul S Person
Pre-Fall -- /what/ sexual attraction?
A&E could have been feeling it, but not understanding what it was.
After they nibbled that fruit, though?
They might not have understood what it was but I'm pretty sure that
after a while they'd figure it out.
Not without "knowledge of good and evil", I suspect.

In the first account, God has to /tell/ them to reproduce. It isn't
something He can depend on them doing on their own. Perhaps.
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."
Paul S Person
2021-08-14 17:29:01 UTC
Reply
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Post by Kevrob
Post by Paul S Person
On Thu, 12 Aug 2021 21:04:59 -0600, David Johnston
Post by David Johnston
Post by Kevrob
Post by James Nicoll
Pavane by Keith Roberts
https://jamesdavisnicoll.com/review/darkness-be-over-me
--
If the Church can meddle with the past well enough to avert
Global Nuclear War, why not reach back further? Convincing
the first humans to not commit Original Sin would have been
top of my to-do list - unless that's just a story.
...you can't actually prevent children from growing up and discovering
sexual attraction. Unless you just kill them first.
I agree, if we are allowed to discount the mythology of the
Old and New Testaments. If Roberts does, that's an author's
privilege.
Post by Paul S Person
Pre-Fall -- /what/ sexual attraction?
A&E could have been feeling it, but not understanding what it was.
After they nibbled that fruit, though?
After that, they had "knowledge of good an evil" and were Fallen.

I'm nearly agreeing with you, just pointing out that you are slipping
from pre-Fall to post-Fall.
Post by Kevrob
Post by Paul S Person
Prevent the Fall (that is, the Original Sin) and who knows what might
happen next?
--
Vaal must be fed....
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."
Magewolf
2021-08-14 18:52:53 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Paul S Person
On Thu, 12 Aug 2021 21:04:59 -0600, David Johnston
Post by David Johnston
Post by James Nicoll
Pavane by Keith Roberts
https://jamesdavisnicoll.com/review/darkness-be-over-me --
If the Church can meddle with the past well enough to avert Global
Nuclear War, why not reach back further? Convincing the first humans
to not commit Original Sin would have been top of my to-do list -
unless that's just a story.
...you can't actually prevent children from growing up and discovering
sexual attraction. Unless you just kill them first.
I agree, if we are allowed to discount the mythology of the Old and New
Testaments. If Roberts does, that's an author's privilege.
Post by Paul S Person
Pre-Fall -- /what/ sexual attraction?
A&E could have been feeling it, but not understanding what it was. After
they nibbled that fruit, though?
Post by Paul S Person
Prevent the Fall (that is, the Original Sin) and who knows what might
happen next?
--
Vaal must be fed....
It would do no good anyway. Since the fall was obviously a setup God
would have just setup another fall until it got what it wanted.
Andrew McDowell
2021-08-15 14:01:12 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Paul S Person
On Thu, 12 Aug 2021 21:04:59 -0600, David Johnston
Post by David Johnston
Post by James Nicoll
Pavane by Keith Roberts
https://jamesdavisnicoll.com/review/darkness-be-over-me --
If the Church can meddle with the past well enough to avert Global
Nuclear War, why not reach back further? Convincing the first humans
to not commit Original Sin would have been top of my to-do list -
unless that's just a story.
...you can't actually prevent children from growing up and discovering
sexual attraction. Unless you just kill them first.
I agree, if we are allowed to discount the mythology of the Old and New
Testaments. If Roberts does, that's an author's privilege.
Post by Paul S Person
Pre-Fall -- /what/ sexual attraction?
A&E could have been feeling it, but not understanding what it was. After
they nibbled that fruit, though?
Post by Paul S Person
Prevent the Fall (that is, the Original Sin) and who knows what might
happen next?
--
Vaal must be fed....
It would do no good anyway. Since the fall was obviously a setup God
would have just setup another fall until it got what it wanted.
A more obvious setup suggests that having your free will overridden by God is not necessarily the path to an idyllic future: Pharaoh in Exodus.
pete...@gmail.com
2021-08-15 18:27:51 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Andrew McDowell
Post by Paul S Person
On Thu, 12 Aug 2021 21:04:59 -0600, David Johnston
Post by David Johnston
Post by James Nicoll
Pavane by Keith Roberts
https://jamesdavisnicoll.com/review/darkness-be-over-me --
If the Church can meddle with the past well enough to avert Global
Nuclear War, why not reach back further? Convincing the first humans
to not commit Original Sin would have been top of my to-do list -
unless that's just a story.
...you can't actually prevent children from growing up and discovering
sexual attraction. Unless you just kill them first.
I agree, if we are allowed to discount the mythology of the Old and New
Testaments. If Roberts does, that's an author's privilege.
Post by Paul S Person
Pre-Fall -- /what/ sexual attraction?
A&E could have been feeling it, but not understanding what it was. After
they nibbled that fruit, though?
Post by Paul S Person
Prevent the Fall (that is, the Original Sin) and who knows what might
happen next?
--
Vaal must be fed....
It would do no good anyway. Since the fall was obviously a setup God
would have just setup another fall until it got what it wanted.
A more obvious setup suggests that having your free will overridden by God is not necessarily the path to an idyllic future: Pharaoh in Exodus.
There are Talmudic traditions that prior to having a partner, Adam had intercourse with
female animals in the Garden. Then of course, there's Lillith.

Pt
Robert Carnegie
2021-08-15 22:34:36 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Andrew McDowell
Post by Paul S Person
On Thu, 12 Aug 2021 21:04:59 -0600, David Johnston
Post by David Johnston
Post by James Nicoll
Pavane by Keith Roberts
https://jamesdavisnicoll.com/review/darkness-be-over-me --
If the Church can meddle with the past well enough to avert Global
Nuclear War, why not reach back further? Convincing the first humans
to not commit Original Sin would have been top of my to-do list -
unless that's just a story.
...you can't actually prevent children from growing up and discovering
sexual attraction. Unless you just kill them first.
I agree, if we are allowed to discount the mythology of the Old and New
Testaments. If Roberts does, that's an author's privilege.
Post by Paul S Person
Pre-Fall -- /what/ sexual attraction?
A&E could have been feeling it, but not understanding what it was. After
they nibbled that fruit, though?
Post by Paul S Person
Prevent the Fall (that is, the Original Sin) and who knows what might
happen next?
--
Vaal must be fed....
It would do no good anyway. Since the fall was obviously a setup God
would have just setup another fall until it got what it wanted.
A more obvious setup suggests that having your free will overridden by God is not necessarily the path to an idyllic future: Pharaoh in Exodus.
There are Talmudic traditions that prior to having a partner, Adam had intercourse with
female animals in the Garden.
He did try all of them* as companions before God offered Eve.

* But, https://wiki.lspace.org/mediawiki/Hedgehog_song

There's also the point that God should have thought about his
pet man being lonely before he got it.
Then of course, there's Lillith.
Pt
Paul S Person
2021-08-16 15:49:44 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by ***@gmail.com
Post by Andrew McDowell
Post by Paul S Person
On Thu, 12 Aug 2021 21:04:59 -0600, David Johnston
Post by David Johnston
Post by James Nicoll
Pavane by Keith Roberts
https://jamesdavisnicoll.com/review/darkness-be-over-me --
If the Church can meddle with the past well enough to avert Global
Nuclear War, why not reach back further? Convincing the first humans
to not commit Original Sin would have been top of my to-do list -
unless that's just a story.
...you can't actually prevent children from growing up and discovering
sexual attraction. Unless you just kill them first.
I agree, if we are allowed to discount the mythology of the Old and New
Testaments. If Roberts does, that's an author's privilege.
Post by Paul S Person
Pre-Fall -- /what/ sexual attraction?
A&E could have been feeling it, but not understanding what it was. After
they nibbled that fruit, though?
Post by Paul S Person
Prevent the Fall (that is, the Original Sin) and who knows what might
happen next?
--
Vaal must be fed....
It would do no good anyway. Since the fall was obviously a setup God
would have just setup another fall until it got what it wanted.
A more obvious setup suggests that having your free will overridden by God is not necessarily the path to an idyllic future: Pharaoh in Exodus.
There are Talmudic traditions that prior to having a partner, Adam had intercourse with
female animals in the Garden. Then of course, there's Lillith.
In /Hebrew Myths: The Book of Genesis/, Robert Graves & Raphael Patai
report that, in the Talmud, woman was said to have originally had a
tail.

And also that some of the /really/ large animals were towed behind the
Ark, rather than being in it.
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."
David Johnston
2021-09-02 01:06:24 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Kevrob
Post by Paul S Person
On Thu, 12 Aug 2021 21:04:59 -0600, David Johnston
Post by David Johnston
Post by Kevrob
Post by James Nicoll
Pavane by Keith Roberts
https://jamesdavisnicoll.com/review/darkness-be-over-me
--
If the Church can meddle with the past well enough to avert
Global Nuclear War, why not reach back further? Convincing
the first humans to not commit Original Sin would have been
top of my to-do list - unless that's just a story.
...you can't actually prevent children from growing up and discovering
sexual attraction. Unless you just kill them first.
I agree, if we are allowed to discount the mythology of the
Old and New Testaments. If Roberts does, that's an author's
privilege.
Post by Paul S Person
Pre-Fall -- /what/ sexual attraction?
A&E could have been feeling it, but not understanding what it was.
After they nibbled that fruit, though?
The fruit is a bloody metaphor. She is tempted by a snake, he is
tempted by a fig and after they succumb to temptation, suddenly nudity
seems like a big deal to them.
John Halpenny
2021-09-02 01:28:11 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Kevrob
Post by Paul S Person
On Thu, 12 Aug 2021 21:04:59 -0600, David Johnston
Post by David Johnston
Post by Kevrob
Post by James Nicoll
Pavane by Keith Roberts
https://jamesdavisnicoll.com/review/darkness-be-over-me
--
If the Church can meddle with the past well enough to avert
Global Nuclear War, why not reach back further? Convincing
the first humans to not commit Original Sin would have been
top of my to-do list - unless that's just a story.
...you can't actually prevent children from growing up and discovering
sexual attraction. Unless you just kill them first.
I agree, if we are allowed to discount the mythology of the
Old and New Testaments. If Roberts does, that's an author's
privilege.
Post by Paul S Person
Pre-Fall -- /what/ sexual attraction?
A&E could have been feeling it, but not understanding what it was.
After they nibbled that fruit, though?
The fruit is a bloody metaphor. She is tempted by a snake, he is
tempted by a fig and after they succumb to temptation, suddenly nudity
seems like a big deal to them.
Before the fall, nudity was not sinful, so presumably sex wasn't either.

Actually, nothing was sinful.

John
David Johnston
2021-09-02 03:43:50 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by John Halpenny
Post by Kevrob
Post by Paul S Person
On Thu, 12 Aug 2021 21:04:59 -0600, David Johnston
Post by David Johnston
Post by Kevrob
Post by James Nicoll
Pavane by Keith Roberts
https://jamesdavisnicoll.com/review/darkness-be-over-me
--
If the Church can meddle with the past well enough to avert
Global Nuclear War, why not reach back further? Convincing
the first humans to not commit Original Sin would have been
top of my to-do list - unless that's just a story.
...you can't actually prevent children from growing up and discovering
sexual attraction. Unless you just kill them first.
I agree, if we are allowed to discount the mythology of the
Old and New Testaments. If Roberts does, that's an author's
privilege.
Post by Paul S Person
Pre-Fall -- /what/ sexual attraction?
A&E could have been feeling it, but not understanding what it was.
After they nibbled that fruit, though?
The fruit is a bloody metaphor. She is tempted by a snake, he is
tempted by a fig and after they succumb to temptation, suddenly nudity
seems like a big deal to them.
Before the fall, nudity was not sinful, so presumably sex wasn't either.
Actually, nothing was sinful.
Well no. That's wrong. They just had not yet "sinned".
Paul S Person
2021-09-02 15:37:06 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Wed, 1 Sep 2021 21:43:50 -0600, David Johnston
Post by David Johnston
Post by John Halpenny
Post by Kevrob
Post by Paul S Person
On Thu, 12 Aug 2021 21:04:59 -0600, David Johnston
Post by David Johnston
Post by Kevrob
Post by James Nicoll
Pavane by Keith Roberts
https://jamesdavisnicoll.com/review/darkness-be-over-me
--
If the Church can meddle with the past well enough to avert
Global Nuclear War, why not reach back further? Convincing
the first humans to not commit Original Sin would have been
top of my to-do list - unless that's just a story.
...you can't actually prevent children from growing up and discovering
sexual attraction. Unless you just kill them first.
I agree, if we are allowed to discount the mythology of the
Old and New Testaments. If Roberts does, that's an author's
privilege.
Post by Paul S Person
Pre-Fall -- /what/ sexual attraction?
A&E could have been feeling it, but not understanding what it was.
After they nibbled that fruit, though?
The fruit is a bloody metaphor. She is tempted by a snake, he is
tempted by a fig and after they succumb to temptation, suddenly nudity
seems like a big deal to them.
Before the fall, nudity was not sinful, so presumably sex wasn't either.
Actually, nothing was sinful.
Well no. That's wrong. They just had not yet "sinned".
And here we have illustrated one of the deep divisions in Christian
theology:

-- those who consider "sin" to be an /act/
-- those who consider "sin" to be a /state/

For the former, someone who sins is a sinner: the act determines the
state.

For the latter, someone who is a sinner sins: the state determines the
act.

At their extremes, both have problems:

The former include people who have convinced themselves that "original
sin" simply refers to the first sin a person chooses to do. At which
point the child becomes a sinner. Their implication is that a person
who never sins is never a sinner and therefore is righteous no matter
what God may think of the matter.

The latter include people have convinced themselves that since
"everyone and everything is a slave of sin" and "everything is sin",
then there is no point in even trying to do better. Indeed, if
"everything is sin", then there is no moral difference between moral
and immoral. And, in some cases, the very idea that Christians should
behave better than non-Christians is abandoned.
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."
Robert Carnegie
2021-08-14 10:17:13 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Paul S Person
On Thu, 12 Aug 2021 21:04:59 -0600, David Johnston
Post by David Johnston
Post by Kevrob
Post by James Nicoll
Pavane by Keith Roberts
https://jamesdavisnicoll.com/review/darkness-be-over-me
--
If the Church can meddle with the past well enough to avert
Global Nuclear War, why not reach back further? Convincing
the first humans to not commit Original Sin would have been
top of my to-do list - unless that's just a story.
...you can't actually prevent children from growing up and discovering
sexual attraction. Unless you just kill them first.
Pre-Fall -- /what/ sexual attraction?
Prevent the Fall (that is, the Original Sin) and who knows what might
happen next?
In John Milton's _Paradise Lost_, which admittedly
isn't anyone's canon, Adam and Eve are sexually active
before the apple thing happens. It is false to treat
romantic and sexual feelings as apple-related.

It does get more kinky after the apple, though.
In the poem.
Dorothy J Heydt
2021-08-14 14:33:56 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by Paul S Person
On Thu, 12 Aug 2021 21:04:59 -0600, David Johnston
Post by David Johnston
Post by Kevrob
Post by James Nicoll
Pavane by Keith Roberts
https://jamesdavisnicoll.com/review/darkness-be-over-me
--
If the Church can meddle with the past well enough to avert
Global Nuclear War, why not reach back further? Convincing
the first humans to not commit Original Sin would have been
top of my to-do list - unless that's just a story.
...you can't actually prevent children from growing up and discovering
sexual attraction. Unless you just kill them first.
Pre-Fall -- /what/ sexual attraction?
Prevent the Fall (that is, the Original Sin) and who knows what might
happen next?
In John Milton's _Paradise Lost_, which admittedly
isn't anyone's canon, Adam and Eve are sexually active
before the apple thing happens. It is false to treat
romantic and sexual feelings as apple-related.
It does get more kinky after the apple, though.
In the poem.
Well, everything does.

In the TV version of _Good Omens,_ (which isn't canon either), Eve
is well along in pregnancy before they are driven out. I haven't
read the book in a while, so I don't know if that feature appears
there.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/
Magewolf
2021-08-14 18:42:49 UTC
Reply
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Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Paul S Person
On Thu, 12 Aug 2021 21:04:59 -0600, David Johnston
Post by David Johnston
Post by James Nicoll
Pavane by Keith Roberts
https://jamesdavisnicoll.com/review/darkness-be-over-me --
If the Church can meddle with the past well enough to avert Global
Nuclear War, why not reach back further? Convincing the first
humans to not commit Original Sin would have been top of my to-do
list - unless that's just a story.
...you can't actually prevent children from growing up and
discovering sexual attraction. Unless you just kill them first.
Pre-Fall -- /what/ sexual attraction?
Prevent the Fall (that is, the Original Sin) and who knows what might
happen next?
In John Milton's _Paradise Lost_, which admittedly isn't anyone's canon,
Adam and Eve are sexually active before the apple thing happens. It is
false to treat romantic and sexual feelings as apple-related.
It does get more kinky after the apple, though.
In the poem.
Well, everything does.
In the TV version of _Good Omens,_ (which isn't canon either), Eve is
well along in pregnancy before they are driven out. I haven't read the
book in a while, so I don't know if that feature appears there.
In the book I think the impression was that she was recently
pregnant,i.e. they eat the apple and did the deed right off.
David Johnston
2021-09-02 01:04:33 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Paul S Person
On Thu, 12 Aug 2021 21:04:59 -0600, David Johnston
Post by David Johnston
Post by Kevrob
Post by James Nicoll
Pavane by Keith Roberts
https://jamesdavisnicoll.com/review/darkness-be-over-me
--
If the Church can meddle with the past well enough to avert
Global Nuclear War, why not reach back further? Convincing
the first humans to not commit Original Sin would have been
top of my to-do list - unless that's just a story.
...you can't actually prevent children from growing up and discovering
sexual attraction. Unless you just kill them first.
Pre-Fall -- /what/ sexual attraction?
Prevent the Fall (that is, the Original Sin) and who knows what might
happen next?
Nothing. They never have sex, they never have babies. The end.
Remember, the punishment was having to have and care for babies.
Michael F. Stemper
2021-09-02 19:50:49 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Paul S Person
On Thu, 12 Aug 2021 21:04:59 -0600, David Johnston
Post by David Johnston
...you can't actually prevent children from growing up and discovering
sexual attraction.  Unless you just kill them first.
Pre-Fall -- /what/ sexual attraction?
Prevent the Fall (that is, the Original Sin) and who knows what might
happen next?
Nothing.  They never have sex, they never have babies.  The end.
Remember, the punishment was having to have and care for babies.
Not according to these translations:
<https://www.biblehub.com/genesis/3-16.htm>

All of them (okay, as far as I scanned) talk about increasing the
discomfort of pregnancy and/or labor. They all treat pregnancy
and childbirth as a given and threaten changes to it.
--
Michael F. Stemper
The FAQ for rec.arts.sf.written is at
<http://leepers.us/evelyn/faqs/sf-written.htm>
Please read it before posting.
Joy Beeson
2021-09-04 03:00:24 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Thu, 2 Sep 2021 14:50:49 -0500, "Michael F. Stemper"
Post by Michael F. Stemper
<https://www.biblehub.com/genesis/3-16.htm>
All of them (okay, as far as I scanned) talk about increasing the
discomfort of pregnancy and/or labor. They all treat pregnancy
and childbirth as a given and threaten changes to it.
And most of our travails in childbirth are caused by our enormous
heads.
--
Joy Beeson
joy beeson at centurylink dot net
http://wlweather.net/PAGEJOY/
Lynn McGuire
2021-09-07 18:26:54 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Joy Beeson
On Thu, 2 Sep 2021 14:50:49 -0500, "Michael F. Stemper"
Post by Michael F. Stemper
<https://www.biblehub.com/genesis/3-16.htm>
All of them (okay, as far as I scanned) talk about increasing the
discomfort of pregnancy and/or labor. They all treat pregnancy
and childbirth as a given and threaten changes to it.
And most of our travails in childbirth are caused by our enormous
heads.
Yup. My poor sainted mother, I was her first at age 18, weight 8 lbs
10.5 ounces and 23 inches long. I wear a 7 and 3/4 (EU size 62) hat
size nowadays which is an XXL. Or a baseball cap on the last notch (if
it has one).

Lynn

Paul S Person
2021-09-03 15:31:09 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Fri, 3 Sep 2021 03:46:40 -0700 (PDT), Robert Carnegie
On Wed, 1 Sep 2021 19:04:33 -0600, David Johnston
Post by Paul S Person
On Thu, 12 Aug 2021 21:04:59 -0600, David Johnston
Post by David Johnston
Post by Kevrob
Post by James Nicoll
Pavane by Keith Roberts
https://jamesdavisnicoll.com/review/darkness-be-over-me
--
If the Church can meddle with the past well enough to avert
Global Nuclear War, why not reach back further? Convincing
the first humans to not commit Original Sin would have been
top of my to-do list - unless that's just a story.
...you can't actually prevent children from growing up and discovering
sexual attraction. Unless you just kill them first.
Pre-Fall -- /what/ sexual attraction?
Prevent the Fall (that is, the Original Sin) and who knows what might
happen next?
Nothing. They never have sex, they never have babies. The end.
Remember, the punishment was having to have and care for babies.
For women, yes.
Well, actually the punishment was /sexual desire/, which produced
babies and carried a risk of death in childbirth.
For the men, the punishment was /having to work for a living/.
Whether they would, eventually, have had babies is unknown. Any
attempt to project /our/ experience to a pre-Fall reality is not
likely to work, or even be convincing.
Then again, we do have it on Very Good Authority that "in Heaven,
there is neither marriage nor giving in marriage" which, given the
culture, probably means /no sex/ rather than /free love/.
Lots of characters in the bible have extra-marital sex.
If you are caught then the punishment is to be married.
If you are already married then the punishment is death.
Or continuing to be married; whichever is worse.
And we were told to be fruitful and multiply in verse 1:28,
but people are created in chapter 1 and again in chapter 2
so the stories run in parallel.
Not to actually dispute anything you say, I merely want to point out
that all those characters having illicit sex were /post-Fall/ and so
irrelevent to what a Fall-free world might have been like.

Also, the reason the various punishments were applied is /precisely/
the reason "no marriage in Heaven" would, I suspect, mean "no sex" as
well.
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."
Robert Carnegie
2021-09-03 18:19:28 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Paul S Person
On Fri, 3 Sep 2021 03:46:40 -0700 (PDT), Robert Carnegie
On Wed, 1 Sep 2021 19:04:33 -0600, David Johnston
Post by Paul S Person
On Thu, 12 Aug 2021 21:04:59 -0600, David Johnston
Post by David Johnston
Post by Kevrob
Post by James Nicoll
Pavane by Keith Roberts
https://jamesdavisnicoll.com/review/darkness-be-over-me
--
If the Church can meddle with the past well enough to avert
Global Nuclear War, why not reach back further? Convincing
the first humans to not commit Original Sin would have been
top of my to-do list - unless that's just a story.
...you can't actually prevent children from growing up and discovering
sexual attraction. Unless you just kill them first.
Pre-Fall -- /what/ sexual attraction?
Prevent the Fall (that is, the Original Sin) and who knows what might
happen next?
Nothing. They never have sex, they never have babies. The end.
Remember, the punishment was having to have and care for babies.
For women, yes.
Well, actually the punishment was /sexual desire/, which produced
babies and carried a risk of death in childbirth.
For the men, the punishment was /having to work for a living/.
Whether they would, eventually, have had babies is unknown. Any
attempt to project /our/ experience to a pre-Fall reality is not
likely to work, or even be convincing.
Then again, we do have it on Very Good Authority that "in Heaven,
there is neither marriage nor giving in marriage" which, given the
culture, probably means /no sex/ rather than /free love/.
Lots of characters in the bible have extra-marital sex.
If you are caught then the punishment is to be married.
If you are already married then the punishment is death.
Or continuing to be married; whichever is worse.
And we were told to be fruitful and multiply in verse 1:28,
but people are created in chapter 1 and again in chapter 2
so the stories run in parallel.
Not to actually dispute anything you say, I merely want to point out
that all those characters having illicit sex were /post-Fall/ and so
irrelevent to what a Fall-free world might have been like.
Indeed, but I took "given the culture" to imply a claim that
the authors of the bible did not imagine sexual intercourse
outside marriage. I mean to point out that this implies
that they hadn't read the bible.
Post by Paul S Person
Also, the reason the various punishments were applied is /precisely/
the reason "no marriage in Heaven" would, I suspect, mean "no sex" as
well.
Well, according to various authorities, including
scripture, angels Do It. And they may Do It with
humans.

Does anyone know whether animals Do It when
they are across the Rainbow Bridge? Some of
them were pretty keen on it before they passed on.
Paul S Person
2021-09-04 15:42:41 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Fri, 3 Sep 2021 11:19:28 -0700 (PDT), Robert Carnegie
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by Paul S Person
On Fri, 3 Sep 2021 03:46:40 -0700 (PDT), Robert Carnegie
On Wed, 1 Sep 2021 19:04:33 -0600, David Johnston
Post by Paul S Person
On Thu, 12 Aug 2021 21:04:59 -0600, David Johnston
Post by David Johnston
Post by Kevrob
Post by James Nicoll
Pavane by Keith Roberts
https://jamesdavisnicoll.com/review/darkness-be-over-me
--
If the Church can meddle with the past well enough to avert
Global Nuclear War, why not reach back further? Convincing
the first humans to not commit Original Sin would have been
top of my to-do list - unless that's just a story.
...you can't actually prevent children from growing up and discovering
sexual attraction. Unless you just kill them first.
Pre-Fall -- /what/ sexual attraction?
Prevent the Fall (that is, the Original Sin) and who knows what might
happen next?
Nothing. They never have sex, they never have babies. The end.
Remember, the punishment was having to have and care for babies.
For women, yes.
Well, actually the punishment was /sexual desire/, which produced
babies and carried a risk of death in childbirth.
For the men, the punishment was /having to work for a living/.
Whether they would, eventually, have had babies is unknown. Any
attempt to project /our/ experience to a pre-Fall reality is not
likely to work, or even be convincing.
Then again, we do have it on Very Good Authority that "in Heaven,
there is neither marriage nor giving in marriage" which, given the
culture, probably means /no sex/ rather than /free love/.
Lots of characters in the bible have extra-marital sex.
If you are caught then the punishment is to be married.
If you are already married then the punishment is death.
Or continuing to be married; whichever is worse.
And we were told to be fruitful and multiply in verse 1:28,
but people are created in chapter 1 and again in chapter 2
so the stories run in parallel.
Not to actually dispute anything you say, I merely want to point out
that all those characters having illicit sex were /post-Fall/ and so
irrelevent to what a Fall-free world might have been like.
Indeed, but I took "given the culture" to imply a claim that
the authors of the bible did not imagine sexual intercourse
outside marriage. I mean to point out that this implies
that they hadn't read the bible.
That seems an odd way to take it, but, since you took it that way,
your response is understandable.
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by Paul S Person
Also, the reason the various punishments were applied is /precisely/
the reason "no marriage in Heaven" would, I suspect, mean "no sex" as
well.
Well, according to various authorities, including
scripture, angels Do It. And they may Do It with
humans.
Only if you insist that "the sons of God" were, in fact, angels. Or
stars -- "the Host of Heaven" appears to mean either (or rather,
both). As with the Divine Court in Job, where Satan appears as a
full-fledged and honored member, it is very hard to say what was
actually meant.

What we need /here/ is a lot more contemporary context. So far as I
know, we don't have it. What we /have/ is a lot of guesswork, some of
it hardened into Tradition.
Post by Robert Carnegie
Does anyone know whether animals Do It when
they are across the Rainbow Bridge? Some of
them were pretty keen on it before they passed on.
The prophets assert that they will all be vegetarians ("the lion will
lie down with the lamb" -- and, no, "lie down with" doesn't mean "eat"
in any sense) on the Great and Terrible Day of the Lord. I think
that's about it on that topic.

For those of us who adopt the attitude that all of Creation is
laboring under the dominion of sin, then current animal behavior is no
guide to sin-free animal behavior.
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."
Kevrob
2021-09-04 16:39:55 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Saturday, September 4, 2021 at 11:43:16 AM UTC-4, Paul S Person wrote:

[snip]
Post by Paul S Person
The prophets assert that they will all be vegetarians ("the lion will
lie down with the lamb" -- and, no, "lie down with" doesn't mean "eat"
in any sense) .....
[snip] Of course not. More like the cover for NATIONAL LAMPOON,
(March, 1976) See: [NSFW]

http://lampoon.rwinters.com/Lampoon1976.htm
--
Kevin R
Titus G
2021-08-12 00:20:52 UTC
Reply
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Post by James Nicoll
Pavane by Keith Roberts
https://jamesdavisnicoll.com/review/darkness-be-over-me
I just loved his writing, I loved the family saga and the first two
Measures of the Pavane were my favourites in terms of fascinating world
building and plot.
The places, religious and country conflicts; the alternative history of
our history, were secondary to my enjoyment of the tales of honour, of
cunning, of morality, of loyalty.
quote
'You know,' she said, 'it's strange, Sir John; but it seemed this
morning when I fired the gun I was standing outside myself, just
watching what my body did. As if I, and you too, all of us, were just
tiny puppets on the grass. Or on a stage. Little mechanical things
playing out parts we didn't understand.' She stared into her wineglass,
swilling it in her hands to see flame light and lamplight dance from the
goldenness inside; then she looked up frowning, eyes opaque and dark.
'Do you know what I mean?' 
He nodded, gravely. 'Yes, my Lady...'
'Yes,' she said. 'It's like a... dance somehow, a minuet or a pavane.
Something stately and pointless, with all its steps set out. With a
beginning, and an end... ' end quote

And much more. Brilliant.
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