Discussion:
Real Space Opera
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Bill Gill
2021-05-23 18:45:47 UTC
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I just reread "Triplanetary" by Edward E. Smith, PhD. Now that
was real space opera. The battles were more spectacular than in
a modern action movie. But of course they were fought, mostly, in
outer space with all kinds of wonderful weapons. But when they
fought on a planet they destroyed cities as a kind of a by-product.

And of course when they needed bigger and better weapons they took
a couple of weeks off and developed and deployed them almost
immediately.

That was real Space Opera.

Bill
Bill Gill
2021-05-23 22:31:51 UTC
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I just reread "Triplanetary" by Edward E. Smith, PhD. Now that
was real space opera. The battles were more spectacular than in
a modern action movie. But of course they were fought, mostly, in
outer space with all kinds of wonderful weapons. But when they
fought on a planet they destroyed cities as a kind of a by-product.
And of course when they needed bigger and better weapons they took
a couple of weeks off and developed and deployed them almost
immediately.
That was real Space Opera.
Which version did you read? The original, or the one that was shoehorned into a Lensman novel? They're both available at Project Gutenberg.
-Moriarty
The one that was the start of the Lensman series. It included several
short stories that were made to lead up to the real start. I have the
1967 paperback.

Bill
Ted Nolan <tednolan>
2021-05-23 22:36:50 UTC
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I just reread "Triplanetary" by Edward E. Smith, PhD. Now that
was real space opera. The battles were more spectacular than in
a modern action movie. But of course they were fought, mostly, in
outer space with all kinds of wonderful weapons. But when they
fought on a planet they destroyed cities as a kind of a by-product.
And of course when they needed bigger and better weapons they took
a couple of weeks off and developed and deployed them almost
immediately.
That was real Space Opera.
Which version did you read? The original, or the one that was
shoehorned into a Lensman novel? They're both available at Project
Gutenberg.
-Moriarty
The one that was the start of the Lensman series. It included several
short stories that were made to lead up to the real start. I have the
1967 paperback.
Bill
That's the one I read back in the day. I finally read the original
and it was interesting to see what was changed. For instance Roger
really was a Jovian space pirate, with hints of some sort of mystical/psi
in his background iirc.
--
columbiaclosings.com
What's not in Columbia anymore..
-dsr-
2021-05-23 22:12:39 UTC
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Post by Bill Gill
I just reread "Triplanetary" by Edward E. Smith, PhD. Now that
was real space opera. The battles were more spectacular than in
a modern action movie. But of course they were fought, mostly, in
outer space with all kinds of wonderful weapons. But when they
fought on a planet they destroyed cities as a kind of a by-product.
And of course when they needed bigger and better weapons they took
a couple of weeks off and developed and deployed them almost
immediately.
That was real Space Opera.
It borders on the Edisonade, in which a plucky scientist-inventor (usually accompanied
by a few more or less hardworking assistants) discovers a new thing and immediately
turns it into a pile of cool gizmos - typically a space drive, a weapon and a
defense. Then they have adventures, some of which may demand further inventions.

Smith wrote more distinctive Edisonades in the Skylark series. Besides
him, there's:

Harrison's Star Smashers of the Galaxy Rangers
Campbell's Arcot, Wade and Morey trilogy
Travis Taylor's Warp Speed
Kooisra's Dykstra's War
Varley's Red Thunder


-dsr-
Amicus Brevis
2021-05-24 01:42:08 UTC
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I just reread "Triplanetary" by Edward E. Smith, PhD. Now that
was real space opera. The battles were more spectacular than in
a modern action movie. But of course they were fought, mostly, in
outer space with all kinds of wonderful weapons. But when they
fought on a planet they destroyed cities as a kind of a by-product.
And of course when they needed bigger and better weapons they took
a couple of weeks off and developed and deployed them almost
immediately.
That was real Space Opera.
Bill
I suspect that many modern readers would disagree about how the excitement in that story. It is not in the spirit of the times - of the last 40 years. really. Much of the action went on in the mind. I have often thought of the Hyperion Quartet as one of the best examples of space opera I have found. It is not flawless. For example, its attempt to make love into a physical force is silly. But it has scope, action and vast imagination.



Regards
Ted Nolan <tednolan>
2021-05-24 02:32:33 UTC
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Post by Amicus Brevis
I just reread "Triplanetary" by Edward E. Smith, PhD. Now that
was real space opera. The battles were more spectacular than in
a modern action movie. But of course they were fought, mostly, in
outer space with all kinds of wonderful weapons. But when they
fought on a planet they destroyed cities as a kind of a by-product.
And of course when they needed bigger and better weapons they took
a couple of weeks off and developed and deployed them almost
immediately.
That was real Space Opera.
Bill
I suspect that many modern readers would disagree about how the
excitement in that story. It is not in the spirit of the times - of the
last 40 years. really. Much of the action went on in the mind. I have
often thought of the Hyperion Quartet as one of the best examples of
space opera I have found. It is not flawless. For example, its attempt
to make love into a physical force is silly. But it has scope, action
and vast imagination.
I would nominate "The Exordium" as good modern(ish) Space Opera.
--
columbiaclosings.com
What's not in Columbia anymore..
Titus G
2021-05-27 05:47:30 UTC
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Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Post by Amicus Brevis
I just reread "Triplanetary" by Edward E. Smith, PhD. Now that
was real space opera. The battles were more spectacular than in
a modern action movie. But of course they were fought, mostly, in
outer space with all kinds of wonderful weapons. But when they
fought on a planet they destroyed cities as a kind of a by-product.
And of course when they needed bigger and better weapons they took
a couple of weeks off and developed and deployed them almost
immediately.
That was real Space Opera.
Bill
I suspect that many modern readers would disagree about how the
excitement in that story. It is not in the spirit of the times - of the
last 40 years. really. Much of the action went on in the mind. I have
often thought of the Hyperion Quartet as one of the best examples of
space opera I have found. It is not flawless. For example, its attempt
to make love into a physical force is silly. But it has scope, action
and vast imagination.
I would nominate "The Exordium" as good modern(ish) Space Opera.
Yes. I gave them all 4 stars except book 2 which got 5.
Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)
2021-05-24 23:05:48 UTC
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Post by Amicus Brevis
I just reread "Triplanetary" by Edward E. Smith, PhD. Now that
was real space opera. The battles were more spectacular than in
a modern action movie. But of course they were fought, mostly, in
outer space with all kinds of wonderful weapons. But when they
fought on a planet they destroyed cities as a kind of a by-product.
And of course when they needed bigger and better weapons they took
a couple of weeks off and developed and deployed them almost
immediately.
That was real Space Opera.
Bill
I suspect that many modern readers would disagree about how the excitement in that story. It is not in the spirit of the times - of the last 40 years. really. Much of the action went on in the mind. I have often thought of the Hyperion Quartet as one of the best examples of space opera I have found.
While I read Hyperion, got a few dozen pages into the sequel, and said
the Eight Deadly Words and stopped.
Lynn McGuire
2021-05-25 01:36:29 UTC
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Post by Amicus Brevis
I just reread "Triplanetary" by Edward E. Smith, PhD. Now that
was real space opera. The battles were more spectacular than in
a modern action movie. But of course they were fought, mostly, in
outer space with all kinds of wonderful weapons. But when they
fought on a planet they destroyed cities as a kind of a by-product.
And of course when they needed bigger and better weapons they took
a couple of weeks off and developed and deployed them almost
immediately.
That was real Space Opera.
Bill
I suspect that many modern readers would disagree about how the
excitement in that story.  It is not in the spirit of the times - of
the last 40 years. really.   Much of the action went on in the mind.
I have often thought of the Hyperion Quartet as one of the best
examples of space opera I have found.
    While I read Hyperion, got a few dozen pages into the sequel, and
said the Eight Deadly Words and stopped.
Yes, you have to power your way through the first 100 or 200 pages in
those books.

Lynn
Dorothy J Heydt
2021-05-25 01:42:28 UTC
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Post by Amicus Brevis
Post by Amicus Brevis
I just reread "Triplanetary" by Edward E. Smith, PhD. Now that
was real space opera. The battles were more spectacular than in
a modern action movie. But of course they were fought, mostly, in
outer space with all kinds of wonderful weapons. But when they
fought on a planet they destroyed cities as a kind of a by-product.
And of course when they needed bigger and better weapons they took
a couple of weeks off and developed and deployed them almost
immediately.
That was real Space Opera.
Bill
I suspect that many modern readers would disagree about how the
excitement in that story. It is not in the spirit of the times - of the
last 40 years. really. Much of the action went on in the mind. I have
often thought of the Hyperion Quartet as one of the best examples of
space opera I have found.
While I read Hyperion, got a few dozen pages into the sequel, and said
the Eight Deadly Words and stopped.
"'Everybody to his own taste,' said the good woman as she kissed
her cow."
--Baudelaire
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/
Bice
2021-05-25 11:57:22 UTC
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On Mon, 24 May 2021 19:05:48 -0400, "Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)"
Post by Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)
Post by Amicus Brevis
I just reread "Triplanetary" by Edward E. Smith, PhD. Now that
was real space opera. The battles were more spectacular than in
a modern action movie. But of course they were fought, mostly, in
outer space with all kinds of wonderful weapons. But when they
fought on a planet they destroyed cities as a kind of a by-product.
And of course when they needed bigger and better weapons they took
a couple of weeks off and developed and deployed them almost
immediately.
That was real Space Opera.
Bill
I suspect that many modern readers would disagree about how the excitement in that story. It is not in the spirit of the times - of the last 40 years. really. Much of the action went on in the mind. I have often thought of the Hyperion Quartet as one of the best examples of space opera I have found.
While I read Hyperion, got a few dozen pages into the sequel, and said
the Eight Deadly Words and stopped.
Be glad you didn't suffer on to the fourth book, The Rise of Endymion.
700 of the most tedious pages I've ever slogged through.

-- Bob
Michael F. Stemper
2021-05-24 15:12:09 UTC
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I just reread "Triplanetary" by Edward E. Smith, PhD.  Now that
was real space opera.  The battles were more spectacular than in
a modern action movie.  But of course they were fought, mostly, in
outer space with all kinds of wonderful weapons.  But when they
fought on a planet they destroyed cities as a kind of a by-product.
And of course when they needed bigger and better weapons they took
a couple of weeks off and developed and deployed them almost
immediately.
I'm drawing a blank here. "Doc" was an engineer, and his stories were
full of episodes showing that development of new technologies was a
difficult process with regular setbacks.

A couple of examples that come to mind right off:
a. Some of the environmental equipment in the first _Skylark_.
b. The Galactic Patrol's sunbeam.

Which bigger and better weapons were painlessly developed and
immediately deployed in _Triplanetary_?
That was real Space Opera.
One might even say that he invented Space Opera.
--
Michael F. Stemper
Galatians 3:28
Dorothy J Heydt
2021-05-24 17:21:38 UTC
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Post by Michael F. Stemper
I just reread "Triplanetary" by Edward E. Smith, PhD.  Now that
was real space opera.  The battles were more spectacular than in
a modern action movie.  But of course they were fought, mostly, in
outer space with all kinds of wonderful weapons.  But when they
fought on a planet they destroyed cities as a kind of a by-product.
And of course when they needed bigger and better weapons they took
a couple of weeks off and developed and deployed them almost
immediately.
I'm drawing a blank here. "Doc" was an engineer, and his stories were
full of episodes showing that development of new technologies was a
difficult process with regular setbacks.
Except, of course, when Higher Powers in Disguise just show up
and give the good guys the tech they need right now.
Post by Michael F. Stemper
a. Some of the environmental equipment in the first _Skylark_.
b. The Galactic Patrol's sunbeam.
Which bigger and better weapons were painlessly developed and
immediately deployed in _Triplanetary_?
Um ... didn't a Higher Power in a Disguise named Bergenholm do
his thing in _Triplanetary_? or was that in a later book?
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/
Steve Coltrin
2021-05-24 17:38:55 UTC
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begin fnord
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Um ... didn't a Higher Power in a Disguise named Bergenholm do
his thing in _Triplanetary_? or was that in a later book?
If I recall correctly (and that's a hell of an if, it's been three
decades), a) it was _First Lensman_, and b) Bergenholm was a bona fide
genius, he'd just been possessed temporarily by an Arisian to give the
project the goose.
--
Steve Coltrin ***@omcl.org Google Groups killfiled here
"A group known as the League of Human Dignity helped arrange for Deuel
to be driven to a local livestock scale, where he could be weighed."
- Associated Press
Michael F. Stemper
2021-05-24 18:00:05 UTC
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Post by Steve Coltrin
begin fnord
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Um ... didn't a Higher Power in a Disguise named Bergenholm do
his thing in _Triplanetary_? or was that in a later book?
If I recall correctly (and that's a hell of an if, it's been three
decades), a) it was _First Lensman_,
It was discussed in _First Lensman_, but that was a review of how the
inertialess drive that was used in the latter part of _Triplanetary_
came to be.
Post by Steve Coltrin
b) Bergenholm was a bona fide
genius, he'd just been possessed temporarily by an Arisian to give the
project the goose.
I believe that Bergenholm was described (in _Children of the Lens_) as
an Arisian-energized form of flesh.
--
Michael F. Stemper
Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend.
Inside of a dog, it's too dark to read.
Dorothy J Heydt
2021-05-24 20:05:20 UTC
Reply
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Post by Michael F. Stemper
Post by Steve Coltrin
begin fnord
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Um ... didn't a Higher Power in a Disguise named Bergenholm do
his thing in _Triplanetary_? or was that in a later book?
If I recall correctly (and that's a hell of an if, it's been three
decades), a) it was _First Lensman_,
It was discussed in _First Lensman_, but that was a review of how the
inertialess drive that was used in the latter part of _Triplanetary_
came to be.
Post by Steve Coltrin
b) Bergenholm was a bona fide
genius, he'd just been possessed temporarily by an Arisian to give the
project the goose.
I believe that Bergenholm was described (in _Children of the Lens_) as
an Arisian-energized form of flesh.
I think that's right; but I'm still not going to risk the cats'
getting into the fiction room in order to find out.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/
Michael F. Stemper
2021-05-24 20:26:01 UTC
Reply
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Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Michael F. Stemper
I believe that Bergenholm was described (in _Children of the Lens_) as
an Arisian-energized form of flesh.
I think that's right; but I'm still not going to risk the cats'
getting into the fiction room in order to find out.
Chapter 16, "Red Lensman in Gray":

"[...] One of was, however, Nels Bergenholm. The full inertialess
space-drive became necessary at that time, and it would have been
poor technique to have had either Rodebush or Cleveland develop
so suddenly the ability to perfect the device as Bergenholm did
perfect it."
--
Michael F. Stemper
Deuteronomy 10:18-19
Michael F. Stemper
2021-05-24 20:52:54 UTC
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Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Michael F. Stemper
I believe that Bergenholm was described (in _Children of the Lens_) as
an Arisian-energized form of flesh.
I think that's right; but I'm still not going to risk the cats'
getting into the fiction room in order to find out.
  "[...] One of was, however, Nels Bergenholm. The full inertialess
  space-drive became necessary at that time, and it would have been
  poor technique to have had either Rodebush or Cleveland develop
  so suddenly the ability to perfect the device as Bergenholm did
  perfect it."
Sorry. It should have started "[...] One of us was, ..."
--
Michael F. Stemper
A preposition is something you should never end a sentence with.
Michael F. Stemper
2021-05-24 18:11:07 UTC
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Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Michael F. Stemper
Post by Bill Gill
And of course when they needed bigger and better weapons they took
a couple of weeks off and developed and deployed them almost
immediately.
I'm drawing a blank here. "Doc" was an engineer, and his stories were
full of episodes showing that development of new technologies was a
difficult process with regular setbacks.
Except, of course, when Higher Powers in Disguise just show up
and give the good guys the tech they need right now.
Post by Michael F. Stemper
a. Some of the environmental equipment in the first _Skylark_.
b. The Galactic Patrol's sunbeam.
Which bigger and better weapons were painlessly developed and
immediately deployed in _Triplanetary_?
Um ... didn't a Higher Power in a Disguise named Bergenholm do
his thing in _Triplanetary_? or was that in a later book?
He did it in _Triplanetary_, although we don't hear about his
involvement until _First Lensman_. However, that was hardly a
machina ex deus. The project to develop neutralization of inertia
had been under way for some time, with plenty of mishaps. Take
the following thoughts of Samms[1] after Rodebush and Cleveland
disappear:

[...] Were his two friends, those intrepid scientists, alive
and triumphant, or had they gone to lengthen the list of
victims of that man-killing spaceship? [...]

An ongoing project that had already led to multiple casualties is not
what I would call "painless development". It doesn't sound as if Samms
thought that way either.

[1] _Triplanetary_ (MMPB version), Chapter XIV, "The Super-Ship
is Launched"
--
Michael F. Stemper
Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend.
Inside of a dog, it's too dark to read.
Michael F. Stemper
2021-05-24 18:24:33 UTC
Reply
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Post by Michael F. Stemper
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Michael F. Stemper
Which bigger and better weapons were painlessly developed and
immediately deployed in _Triplanetary_?
Um ... didn't a Higher Power in a Disguise named Bergenholm do
his thing in _Triplanetary_?  or was that in a later book?
He did it in _Triplanetary_, although we don't hear about his
involvement until _First Lensman_. However, that was hardly a
machina ex deus. The project to develop neutralization of inertia
had been under way for some time, with plenty of mishaps. Take
the following thoughts of Samms[1] after Rodebush and Cleveland
  [...] Were his two friends, those intrepid scientists, alive
  and triumphant, or had they gone to lengthen the list of
  victims of that man-killing spaceship? [...]
An ongoing project that had already led to multiple casualties is not
what I would call "painless development". It doesn't sound as if Samms
thought that way either.
[1] _Triplanetary_ (MMPB version), Chapter XIV, "The Super-Ship
is Launched"
I forgot about this bit from _First Lensman_[2], which is
from a discussion between Samms and (Rod) Kinnison about
how "Bergenolm" got involved in the development of the
device that would come to bear his name:

"[...] Well, the original Rodebush-Cleveland free drive
was a killer, you know ..."

"How I know!" Kinnison exclaimed, feelingly.

"They beat their brains out and ate their hearts out
for months, without it getting any better. [...]"

It's almost like in _The Lord of the Rings_, where Frodo had
to do everything he possibly could, (and more than he thought
that he could) and only then would the necessary divine
intervention happen.

[2] _First Lensman (MMPB edition), Chapter 2
--
Michael F. Stemper
If you take cranberries and stew them like applesauce they taste much
more like prunes than rhubarb does.
Dorothy J Heydt
2021-05-24 20:12:51 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Michael F. Stemper
Post by Michael F. Stemper
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Michael F. Stemper
Which bigger and better weapons were painlessly developed and
immediately deployed in _Triplanetary_?
Um ... didn't a Higher Power in a Disguise named Bergenholm do
his thing in _Triplanetary_?  or was that in a later book?
He did it in _Triplanetary_, although we don't hear about his
involvement until _First Lensman_. However, that was hardly a
machina ex deus. The project to develop neutralization of inertia
had been under way for some time, with plenty of mishaps. Take
the following thoughts of Samms[1] after Rodebush and Cleveland
  [...] Were his two friends, those intrepid scientists, alive
  and triumphant, or had they gone to lengthen the list of
  victims of that man-killing spaceship? [...]
An ongoing project that had already led to multiple casualties is not
what I would call "painless development". It doesn't sound as if Samms
thought that way either.
[1] _Triplanetary_ (MMPB version), Chapter XIV, "The Super-Ship
is Launched"
I forgot about this bit from _First Lensman_[2], which is
from a discussion between Samms and (Rod) Kinnison about
how "Bergenolm" got involved in the development of the
"[...] Well, the original Rodebush-Cleveland free drive
was a killer, you know ..."
"How I know!" Kinnison exclaimed, feelingly.
"They beat their brains out and ate their hearts out
for months, without it getting any better. [...]"
It's almost like in _The Lord of the Rings_, where Frodo had
to do everything he possibly could, (and more than he thought
that he could) and only then would the necessary divine
intervention happen.
We could argue about whether it was divine intervention. Even
the Valar, who are high-level angels, not gods, haven't
interfered directly in the matter of Middle-earth since the First
Age ended. (Indirect interference, in the form of the five
Wizards, wasn't all that effective, either.) A more Catholic-oid
explanation would be that Iluvatar refrained from interfering so
that Frodo, Sam, and Gollum could work out their destinies according
to their characters. A more interfering God would just simply
have destroyed the Ring.
Post by Michael F. Stemper
[2] _First Lensman (MMPB edition), Chapter 2
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/
Paul S Person
2021-05-25 17:37:12 UTC
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<snippo>
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Michael F. Stemper
It's almost like in _The Lord of the Rings_, where Frodo had
to do everything he possibly could, (and more than he thought
that he could) and only then would the necessary divine
intervention happen.
We could argue about whether it was divine intervention. Even
the Valar, who are high-level angels, not gods, haven't
interfered directly in the matter of Middle-earth since the First
Age ended. (Indirect interference, in the form of the five
Wizards, wasn't all that effective, either.) A more Catholic-oid
explanation would be that Iluvatar refrained from interfering so
that Frodo, Sam, and Gollum could work out their destinies according
to their characters. A more interfering God would just simply
have destroyed the Ring.
And yet JRRT had (IIRC) Gandalf say that Gollum losing his balance
happened "by chance, as we say on Middle Earth".

Which some of us believe means it wasn't by chance at all, but by Eru
Iluvator.

And that's rather a stark contrast. Aquinas was more ... nuanced ...
IIRC.
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."
Paul S Person
2021-05-26 17:47:54 UTC
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Post by Paul S Person
<snippo>
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Michael F. Stemper
It's almost like in _The Lord of the Rings_, where Frodo had
to do everything he possibly could, (and more than he thought
that he could) and only then would the necessary divine
intervention happen.
We could argue about whether it was divine intervention. Even
the Valar, who are high-level angels, not gods, haven't
interfered directly in the matter of Middle-earth since the First
Age ended. (Indirect interference, in the form of the five
Wizards, wasn't all that effective, either.) A more Catholic-oid
explanation would be that Iluvatar refrained from interfering so
that Frodo, Sam, and Gollum could work out their destinies according
to their characters. A more interfering God would just simply
have destroyed the Ring.
And yet JRRT had (IIRC) Gandalf say that Gollum losing his balance
happened "by chance, as we say on Middle Earth".
Which some of us believe means it wasn't by chance at all, but by Eru
Iluvator.
Well, maybe. It is, after all, seriously hard for us mortals to
tell the difference, particularly while we're still alive.
Post by Paul S Person
And that's rather a stark contrast. Aquinas was more ... nuanced ...
IIRC.
I have been given many gifts, but an ability to understand
Aquinas was not among them. I'll take your word for it.
I don't know that I would go so far as to claim to /understand/ him,
but the English version I read was very smooth reading, and I
certainly picked up the general idea on many points.
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."
Michael F. Stemper
2021-05-25 18:38:51 UTC
Reply
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Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Michael F. Stemper
Post by Michael F. Stemper
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Um ... didn't a Higher Power in a Disguise named Bergenholm do
his thing in _Triplanetary_?  or was that in a later book?
He did it in _Triplanetary_, although we don't hear about his
involvement until _First Lensman_. However, that was hardly a
machina ex deus. The project to develop neutralization of inertia
had been under way for some time, with plenty of mishaps. Take
the following thoughts of Samms[1] after Rodebush and Cleveland
  [...] Were his two friends, those intrepid scientists, alive
  and triumphant, or had they gone to lengthen the list of
  victims of that man-killing spaceship? [...]
An ongoing project that had already led to multiple casualties is not
what I would call "painless development". It doesn't sound as if Samms
thought that way either.
[1] _Triplanetary_ (MMPB version), Chapter XIV, "The Super-Ship
is Launched"
I forgot about this bit from _First Lensman_[2], which is
from a discussion between Samms and (Rod) Kinnison about
how "Bergenolm" got involved in the development of the
"[...] Well, the original Rodebush-Cleveland free drive
was a killer, you know ..."
"How I know!" Kinnison exclaimed, feelingly.
"They beat their brains out and ate their hearts out
for months, without it getting any better. [...]"
It's almost like in _The Lord of the Rings_, where Frodo had
to do everything he possibly could, (and more than he thought
that he could) and only then would the necessary divine
intervention happen.
We could argue about whether it was divine intervention. Even
the Valar, who are high-level angels, not gods, haven't
interfered directly in the matter of Middle-earth since the First
Age ended. (Indirect interference, in the form of the five
Wizards, wasn't all that effective, either.) A more Catholic-oid
explanation would be that Iluvatar refrained from interfering so
that Frodo, Sam, and Gollum could work out their destinies according
to their characters. A more interfering God would just simply
have destroyed the Ring.
It seems to me that the message was "doing everything that you can do,
and indeed more than you thought that you could do" is a necessary, but
not sufficient, condition for salvation. After that, it takes a bit of
grace to succeed.
--
Michael F. Stemper
Isaiah 58:6-7
Andrew McDowell
2021-05-24 18:17:36 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Michael F. Stemper
I just reread "Triplanetary" by Edward E. Smith, PhD. Now that
was real space opera. The battles were more spectacular than in
a modern action movie. But of course they were fought, mostly, in
outer space with all kinds of wonderful weapons. But when they
fought on a planet they destroyed cities as a kind of a by-product.
And of course when they needed bigger and better weapons they took
a couple of weeks off and developed and deployed them almost
immediately.
I'm drawing a blank here. "Doc" was an engineer, and his stories were
full of episodes showing that development of new technologies was a
difficult process with regular setbacks.
a. Some of the environmental equipment in the first _Skylark_.
b. The Galactic Patrol's sunbeam.
Which bigger and better weapons were painlessly developed and
immediately deployed in _Triplanetary_?
That was real Space Opera.
One might even say that he invented Space Opera.
--
Michael F. Stemper
Galatians 3:28
One thing I miss in a lot of modern SF is discovery, invention, and development. I'm hazy on Triplanetary. The development of the 4-d gizmo by the Jelmi in the Skylark series is a nice example of persistence being required for many many failed trials. OTOH new technologies acquired by one side or another seem to get rolled out almost immediately. I think this happens with the cosmic energy drive stolen in Grey Lensman and the ?Medonian? superinsulators when civilization allies with Medon.
Ted Nolan <tednolan>
2021-05-24 18:27:56 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Andrew McDowell
Post by Michael F. Stemper
I just reread "Triplanetary" by Edward E. Smith, PhD. Now that
was real space opera. The battles were more spectacular than in
a modern action movie. But of course they were fought, mostly, in
outer space with all kinds of wonderful weapons. But when they
fought on a planet they destroyed cities as a kind of a by-product.
And of course when they needed bigger and better weapons they took
a couple of weeks off and developed and deployed them almost
immediately.
I'm drawing a blank here. "Doc" was an engineer, and his stories were
full of episodes showing that development of new technologies was a
difficult process with regular setbacks.
a. Some of the environmental equipment in the first _Skylark_.
b. The Galactic Patrol's sunbeam.
Which bigger and better weapons were painlessly developed and
immediately deployed in _Triplanetary_?
That was real Space Opera.
One might even say that he invented Space Opera.
--
Michael F. Stemper
Galatians 3:28
One thing I miss in a lot of modern SF is discovery, invention, and
development. I'm hazy on Triplanetary. The development of the 4-d gizmo
by the Jelmi in the Skylark series is a nice example of persistence
being required for many many failed trials. OTOH new technologies
acquired by one side or another seem to get rolled out almost
immediately. I think this happens with the cosmic energy drive stolen in
Grey Lensman and the ?Medonian? superinsulators when civilization allies
with Medon.
One thing about Space Opera is that it was invented in the shadow of WWI:
four years that saw a dizzying pace of weapon innovation.
--
columbiaclosings.com
What's not in Columbia anymore..
Michael F. Stemper
2021-05-24 18:37:53 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Andrew McDowell
Post by Michael F. Stemper
Post by Bill Gill
And of course when they needed bigger and better weapons they took
a couple of weeks off and developed and deployed them almost
immediately.
I'm drawing a blank here. "Doc" was an engineer, and his stories were
full of episodes showing that development of new technologies was a
difficult process with regular setbacks.
a. Some of the environmental equipment in the first _Skylark_.
b. The Galactic Patrol's sunbeam.
Which bigger and better weapons were painlessly developed and
immediately deployed in _Triplanetary_?
One thing I miss in a lot of modern SF is discovery, invention, and development. I'm hazy on Triplanetary. The development of the 4-d gizmo by the Jelmi in the Skylark series is a nice example of persistence being required for many many failed trials. OTOH new technologies acquired by one side or another seem to get rolled out almost immediately. I think this happens with the cosmic energy drive stolen in Grey Lensman and the ?Medonian? superinsulators when civilization allies with Medon.
It is a lot easier when you borrow/steal the results of somebody
else's R&D, yeah.

Something that I didn't really appreciate until I'd been a working
engineer for many years was how the development of the "X" drive in
_The Skylark of Space_ was handled.

Seaton, the engineer, wanted to just grab the vial of solution and
set up investigation in a garage.

Crane, the vulture capitalist, insisted on a few things:
1. They buy the solution at a public auction to get clear title.
2. They form a real company with stock and a board of directors.
3. The initial capitalization of said company wouldn't be a few
thousand dollars, but a million (half coming out of Crane's pocket,
the other half the preliminary value of Seaton's discovery).

Sometimes stuff can be done at a skunk works, but this was not
that time.
--
Michael F. Stemper
If you take cranberries and stew them like applesauce they taste much
more like prunes than rhubarb does.
Bill Gill
2021-05-25 16:46:18 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Michael F. Stemper
I just reread "Triplanetary" by Edward E. Smith, PhD.  Now that
was real space opera.  The battles were more spectacular than in
a modern action movie.  But of course they were fought, mostly, in
outer space with all kinds of wonderful weapons.  But when they
fought on a planet they destroyed cities as a kind of a by-product.
And of course when they needed bigger and better weapons they took
a couple of weeks off and developed and deployed them almost
immediately.
I'm drawing a blank here. "Doc" was an engineer, and his stories were
full of episodes showing that development of new technologies was a
difficult process with regular setbacks.
a. Some of the environmental equipment in the first _Skylark_.
b. The Galactic Patrol's sunbeam.
Which bigger and better weapons were painlessly developed and
immediately deployed in _Triplanetary_?
That was real Space Opera.
One might even say that he invented Space Opera.
Well, after they met Roger and the Nevians all they had to do was
to analyze the readings on the weapons and shields they faced in
order to replicate them. And they got them built and installed in
very short order. It doesn't take them months in the yards to
figure it all out, design the new systems, and install them all ready
for use.

Bill
Michael F. Stemper
2021-05-25 19:55:31 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Bill Gill
Post by Michael F. Stemper
I just reread "Triplanetary" by Edward E. Smith, PhD.  Now that
was real space opera.
And of course when they needed bigger and better weapons they took
a couple of weeks off and developed and deployed them almost
immediately.
I'm drawing a blank here. "Doc" was an engineer, and his stories were
full of episodes showing that development of new technologies was a
difficult process with regular setbacks.
Which bigger and better weapons were painlessly developed and
immediately deployed in _Triplanetary_?
Well, after they met Roger and the Nevians all they had to do was
to analyze the readings on the weapons and shields they faced in
order to replicate them.  And they got them built and installed in
very short order.  It doesn't take them months in the yards to
figure it all out, design the new systems, and install them all ready
for use.
A little faster than would be realistic, but Doc still showed
the work involved.

In the aftermath of the three-way battle, Cleveland and team
did an extensive survey of the wreckage, including collecting
equipment samples and taking photographs. Much more than just
taking the readings (which were also important).

While the _Chicago_ was en route back to Earth:
Eager though he naturally was to join his fellow-scientists,
Cleveland was not impatient during the long, but uneventful
journey back to Earth. There was much to study, many
improvements to be made in his comparatively crude first
ultra-camera. Then, too, there were long conferences with
Samms, and particularly with Rodebush, the nuclear physicist,
who would have to do much of the work involved in solving
the riddles of the energies and weapons of the Nevians. [...]

After his return to the Hill, he meets with Samms and
Rodebush. Rodebush says (in part):
"[...] We have the transformation of iron all worked out in
theory, and as soon as we get a generator going we can
straightened [sic] out everything else in short order."

The above is all from Chapter 13. Chapter 14 starts:
After weeks of ceaseless work, during which was lavished
upon her every resource of mind and material afforded by
three planets, the _Boise_ was ready for her maiden
flight. [...]

I'll grant that teleconferencing between the _Chicago_ and the
Hill for a period of a few weeks, followed by "weeks of
ceaseless work" was probably a bit shorter than realistic.
But, it's hardly "short order". And they had the remnants
(less the iron bits) of working equipment to use as models
for their design, rather than starting from a blank piece
of paper.
--
Michael F. Stemper
Psalm 82:1-4
Michael F. Stemper
2021-05-25 20:23:41 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Michael F. Stemper
Post by Bill Gill
Post by Michael F. Stemper
I just reread "Triplanetary" by Edward E. Smith, PhD.  Now that
was real space opera.
And of course when they needed bigger and better weapons they took
a couple of weeks off and developed and deployed them almost
immediately.
I'm drawing a blank here. "Doc" was an engineer, and his stories were
full of episodes showing that development of new technologies was a
difficult process with regular setbacks.
Which bigger and better weapons were painlessly developed and
immediately deployed in _Triplanetary_?
Well, after they met Roger and the Nevians all they had to do was
to analyze the readings on the weapons and shields they faced in
order to replicate them.  And they got them built and installed in
very short order.  It doesn't take them months in the yards to
figure it all out, design the new systems, and install them all ready
for use.
A little faster than would be realistic, but Doc still showed
the work involved.
I'll grant that teleconferencing between the _Chicago_ and the
Hill for a period of a few weeks, followed by "weeks of
ceaseless work" was probably a bit shorter than realistic.
But, it's hardly "short order".
By the way, if you'd like to really see "theory to working model
in a day", you should check out:
<http://www.isfdb.org/cgi-bin/pe.cgi?827>

In the first one, Our Heroes realize that they need <X>. One of
them says, "Oh, by pure coincidence, I just worked out a theory on how
to do that." By close of business, they have an <X>.

I only made it through the first one, and then gave that away, but
reading it shows how far Doc's model of R&D differed from what was
typical in the genre in the 1930s and 1940s.
--
Michael F. Stemper
Deuteronomy 24:17
J. Clarke
2021-05-26 00:42:36 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Tue, 25 May 2021 15:23:41 -0500, "Michael F. Stemper"
Post by Michael F. Stemper
Post by Michael F. Stemper
Post by Bill Gill
Post by Michael F. Stemper
I just reread "Triplanetary" by Edward E. Smith, PhD.  Now that
was real space opera.
And of course when they needed bigger and better weapons they took
a couple of weeks off and developed and deployed them almost
immediately.
I'm drawing a blank here. "Doc" was an engineer, and his stories were
full of episodes showing that development of new technologies was a
difficult process with regular setbacks.
Which bigger and better weapons were painlessly developed and
immediately deployed in _Triplanetary_?
Well, after they met Roger and the Nevians all they had to do was
to analyze the readings on the weapons and shields they faced in
order to replicate them.  And they got them built and installed in
very short order.  It doesn't take them months in the yards to
figure it all out, design the new systems, and install them all ready
for use.
A little faster than would be realistic, but Doc still showed
the work involved.
I'll grant that teleconferencing between the _Chicago_ and the
Hill for a period of a few weeks, followed by "weeks of
ceaseless work" was probably a bit shorter than realistic.
But, it's hardly "short order".
By the way, if you'd like to really see "theory to working model
<http://www.isfdb.org/cgi-bin/pe.cgi?827>
In the first one, Our Heroes realize that they need <X>. One of
them says, "Oh, by pure coincidence, I just worked out a theory on how
to do that." By close of business, they have an <X>.
I only made it through the first one, and then gave that away, but
reading it shows how far Doc's model of R&D differed from what was
typical in the genre in the 1930s and 1940s.
And one must remember that Doc not have the two examples that we have
of real-world development of science-fiction technologies on an
unlimited-budget crash-program basis--the Manhattan Project and
Apollo. Although one wonders if either of those would have gone
faster if they had had all the resources of three planets behind them.
pete...@gmail.com
2021-05-26 01:53:53 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by J. Clarke
On Tue, 25 May 2021 15:23:41 -0500, "Michael F. Stemper"
Post by Michael F. Stemper
Post by Michael F. Stemper
Post by Bill Gill
Post by Michael F. Stemper
I just reread "Triplanetary" by Edward E. Smith, PhD. Now that
was real space opera.
And of course when they needed bigger and better weapons they took
a couple of weeks off and developed and deployed them almost
immediately.
I'm drawing a blank here. "Doc" was an engineer, and his stories were
full of episodes showing that development of new technologies was a
difficult process with regular setbacks.
Which bigger and better weapons were painlessly developed and
immediately deployed in _Triplanetary_?
Well, after they met Roger and the Nevians all they had to do was
to analyze the readings on the weapons and shields they faced in
order to replicate them. And they got them built and installed in
very short order. It doesn't take them months in the yards to
figure it all out, design the new systems, and install them all ready
for use.
A little faster than would be realistic, but Doc still showed
the work involved.
I'll grant that teleconferencing between the _Chicago_ and the
Hill for a period of a few weeks, followed by "weeks of
ceaseless work" was probably a bit shorter than realistic.
But, it's hardly "short order".
By the way, if you'd like to really see "theory to working model
<http://www.isfdb.org/cgi-bin/pe.cgi?827>
In the first one, Our Heroes realize that they need <X>. One of
them says, "Oh, by pure coincidence, I just worked out a theory on how
to do that." By close of business, they have an <X>.
I only made it through the first one, and then gave that away, but
reading it shows how far Doc's model of R&D differed from what was
typical in the genre in the 1930s and 1940s.
And one must remember that Doc not have the two examples that we have
of real-world development of science-fiction technologies on an
unlimited-budget crash-program basis--the Manhattan Project and
Apollo. Although one wonders if either of those would have gone
faster if they had had all the resources of three planets behind them.
Another real life example is the development of the various COVID vaccines.
We were lucky in already having years of development on vaccines for SARS
and MERS, which are closely related, and every step was fast tracked 'drop
everything else' at the regulators. Plants to make the vaccines were built before
it was known if they'd work, etc.

Pt
Andrew McDowell
2021-05-26 04:31:12 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by ***@gmail.com
Post by J. Clarke
On Tue, 25 May 2021 15:23:41 -0500, "Michael F. Stemper"
Post by Michael F. Stemper
Post by Michael F. Stemper
Post by Bill Gill
Post by Michael F. Stemper
I just reread "Triplanetary" by Edward E. Smith, PhD. Now that
was real space opera.
And of course when they needed bigger and better weapons they took
a couple of weeks off and developed and deployed them almost
immediately.
I'm drawing a blank here. "Doc" was an engineer, and his stories were
full of episodes showing that development of new technologies was a
difficult process with regular setbacks.
Which bigger and better weapons were painlessly developed and
immediately deployed in _Triplanetary_?
Well, after they met Roger and the Nevians all they had to do was
to analyze the readings on the weapons and shields they faced in
order to replicate them. And they got them built and installed in
very short order. It doesn't take them months in the yards to
figure it all out, design the new systems, and install them all ready
for use.
A little faster than would be realistic, but Doc still showed
the work involved.
I'll grant that teleconferencing between the _Chicago_ and the
Hill for a period of a few weeks, followed by "weeks of
ceaseless work" was probably a bit shorter than realistic.
But, it's hardly "short order".
By the way, if you'd like to really see "theory to working model
<http://www.isfdb.org/cgi-bin/pe.cgi?827>
In the first one, Our Heroes realize that they need <X>. One of
them says, "Oh, by pure coincidence, I just worked out a theory on how
to do that." By close of business, they have an <X>.
I only made it through the first one, and then gave that away, but
reading it shows how far Doc's model of R&D differed from what was
typical in the genre in the 1930s and 1940s.
And one must remember that Doc not have the two examples that we have
of real-world development of science-fiction technologies on an
unlimited-budget crash-program basis--the Manhattan Project and
Apollo. Although one wonders if either of those would have gone
faster if they had had all the resources of three planets behind them.
Another real life example is the development of the various COVID vaccines.
We were lucky in already having years of development on vaccines for SARS
and MERS, which are closely related, and every step was fast tracked 'drop
everything else' at the regulators. Plants to make the vaccines were built before
it was known if they'd work, etc.
Pt
(I liked the point about the pace of weapons development in WWI)
An influential UK advisor during covid and vaccine development is known to have been a fan of the Apollo project, but I have actually heard the Manhattan Project being referenced as a model to follow - to justify the idea of pursuing two alternative approaches in parallel.

To me the pace of _modern_ development is shown by the F-35, not yet fully developed after something like 20 years. The UK is immensely pleased with itself over the Queen Elizabeth II carrier and its sister ship, which have taken nearly as long.
J. Clarke
2021-05-26 05:03:38 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Tue, 25 May 2021 21:31:12 -0700 (PDT), Andrew McDowell
Post by Andrew McDowell
Post by ***@gmail.com
Post by J. Clarke
On Tue, 25 May 2021 15:23:41 -0500, "Michael F. Stemper"
Post by Michael F. Stemper
Post by Michael F. Stemper
Post by Bill Gill
Post by Michael F. Stemper
I just reread "Triplanetary" by Edward E. Smith, PhD. Now that
was real space opera.
And of course when they needed bigger and better weapons they took
a couple of weeks off and developed and deployed them almost
immediately.
I'm drawing a blank here. "Doc" was an engineer, and his stories were
full of episodes showing that development of new technologies was a
difficult process with regular setbacks.
Which bigger and better weapons were painlessly developed and
immediately deployed in _Triplanetary_?
Well, after they met Roger and the Nevians all they had to do was
to analyze the readings on the weapons and shields they faced in
order to replicate them. And they got them built and installed in
very short order. It doesn't take them months in the yards to
figure it all out, design the new systems, and install them all ready
for use.
A little faster than would be realistic, but Doc still showed
the work involved.
I'll grant that teleconferencing between the _Chicago_ and the
Hill for a period of a few weeks, followed by "weeks of
ceaseless work" was probably a bit shorter than realistic.
But, it's hardly "short order".
By the way, if you'd like to really see "theory to working model
<http://www.isfdb.org/cgi-bin/pe.cgi?827>
In the first one, Our Heroes realize that they need <X>. One of
them says, "Oh, by pure coincidence, I just worked out a theory on how
to do that." By close of business, they have an <X>.
I only made it through the first one, and then gave that away, but
reading it shows how far Doc's model of R&D differed from what was
typical in the genre in the 1930s and 1940s.
And one must remember that Doc not have the two examples that we have
of real-world development of science-fiction technologies on an
unlimited-budget crash-program basis--the Manhattan Project and
Apollo. Although one wonders if either of those would have gone
faster if they had had all the resources of three planets behind them.
Another real life example is the development of the various COVID vaccines.
We were lucky in already having years of development on vaccines for SARS
and MERS, which are closely related, and every step was fast tracked 'drop
everything else' at the regulators. Plants to make the vaccines were built before
it was known if they'd work, etc.
Pt
(I liked the point about the pace of weapons development in WWI)
An influential UK advisor during covid and vaccine development is known to have been a fan of the Apollo project, but I have actually heard the Manhattan Project being referenced as a model to follow - to justify the idea of pursuing two alternative approaches in parallel.
To me the pace of _modern_ development is shown by the F-35, not yet fully developed after something like 20 years. The UK is immensely pleased with itself over the Queen Elizabeth II carrier and its sister ship, which have taken nearly as long.
I don't think that either of those has much to do with development
though, the F-35 is really Welfare for aerospace workers--SLS the
same. I don't know enough about what goes on in the UK to comment on
the QEII except to say that the UK was producing perfectly acceptable
aircraft carriers nearly a hundred years ago. SpaceX is a better
example of what can be done in the modern era when the objective is to
_do_ something and not create a jobs program.
Andrew McDowell
2021-05-26 18:12:39 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by J. Clarke
On Tue, 25 May 2021 21:31:12 -0700 (PDT), Andrew McDowell
Post by Andrew McDowell
Post by ***@gmail.com
Post by J. Clarke
On Tue, 25 May 2021 15:23:41 -0500, "Michael F. Stemper"
Post by Michael F. Stemper
Post by Michael F. Stemper
Post by Bill Gill
Post by Michael F. Stemper
I just reread "Triplanetary" by Edward E. Smith, PhD. Now that
was real space opera.
And of course when they needed bigger and better weapons they took
a couple of weeks off and developed and deployed them almost
immediately.
I'm drawing a blank here. "Doc" was an engineer, and his stories were
full of episodes showing that development of new technologies was a
difficult process with regular setbacks.
Which bigger and better weapons were painlessly developed and
immediately deployed in _Triplanetary_?
Well, after they met Roger and the Nevians all they had to do was
to analyze the readings on the weapons and shields they faced in
order to replicate them. And they got them built and installed in
very short order. It doesn't take them months in the yards to
figure it all out, design the new systems, and install them all ready
for use.
A little faster than would be realistic, but Doc still showed
the work involved.
I'll grant that teleconferencing between the _Chicago_ and the
Hill for a period of a few weeks, followed by "weeks of
ceaseless work" was probably a bit shorter than realistic.
But, it's hardly "short order".
By the way, if you'd like to really see "theory to working model
<http://www.isfdb.org/cgi-bin/pe.cgi?827>
In the first one, Our Heroes realize that they need <X>. One of
them says, "Oh, by pure coincidence, I just worked out a theory on how
to do that." By close of business, they have an <X>.
I only made it through the first one, and then gave that away, but
reading it shows how far Doc's model of R&D differed from what was
typical in the genre in the 1930s and 1940s.
And one must remember that Doc not have the two examples that we have
of real-world development of science-fiction technologies on an
unlimited-budget crash-program basis--the Manhattan Project and
Apollo. Although one wonders if either of those would have gone
faster if they had had all the resources of three planets behind them.
Another real life example is the development of the various COVID vaccines.
We were lucky in already having years of development on vaccines for SARS
and MERS, which are closely related, and every step was fast tracked 'drop
everything else' at the regulators. Plants to make the vaccines were built before
it was known if they'd work, etc.
Pt
(I liked the point about the pace of weapons development in WWI)
An influential UK advisor during covid and vaccine development is known to have been a fan of the Apollo project, but I have actually heard the Manhattan Project being referenced as a model to follow - to justify the idea of pursuing two alternative approaches in parallel.
To me the pace of _modern_ development is shown by the F-35, not yet fully developed after something like 20 years. The UK is immensely pleased with itself over the Queen Elizabeth II carrier and its sister ship, which have taken nearly as long.
I don't think that either of those has much to do with development
though, the F-35 is really Welfare for aerospace workers--SLS the
same. I don't know enough about what goes on in the UK to comment on
the QEII except to say that the UK was producing perfectly acceptable
aircraft carriers nearly a hundred years ago. SpaceX is a better
example of what can be done in the modern era when the objective is to
_do_ something and not create a jobs program.
It is possible that the F-35 is telling us that a modern fighter plane (which is also almost a mini-AWACS) is a much more complex beast than a Sopwith Camel or a Spitfire, and the development time reflects this. It is also the case that some weapons systems developed at higher speed had (literally) fatal flaws - "There seems to be something wrong with our bloody ships today" is not what you want to be saying. That being said, MoD procurement has earned itself a pretty awful reputation.
Scott Lurndal
2021-05-26 19:30:28 UTC
Reply
Permalink
I don't think that either of those has much to do with development=20
though, the F-35 is really Welfare for aerospace workers--SLS the=20
same. I don't know enough about what goes on in the UK to comment on=20
the QEII except to say that the UK was producing perfectly acceptable=20
aircraft carriers nearly a hundred years ago. SpaceX is a better=20
example of what can be done in the modern era when the objective is to=20
_do_ something and not create a jobs program.
It is possible that the F-35 is telling us that a modern fighter plane (whi=
ch is also almost a mini-AWACS) is a much more complex beast than a Sopwith=
Camel or a Spitfire, and the development time reflects this. It is also th=
e case that some weapons systems developed at higher speed had (literally) =
fatal flaws - "There seems to be something wrong with our bloody ships toda=
y" is not what you want to be saying. That being said, MoD procurement has =
earned itself a pretty awful reputation.
It is also possible that the defense contractor over-promised and
under-delivered on the F-35 program.

It's telling that the Air Force has decided to procure new F-15
and is mulling new F-16 aircraft.

The current hourly flight costs for the F-35 are twice that of
the next most expensive aircraft in the inventory, and don't seem
to be on a downward trajectory. The aircraft itself is underperforming
and the digital maintenance system was completely discarded and replaced anew.
J. Clarke
2021-05-26 20:56:38 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Wed, 26 May 2021 11:12:39 -0700 (PDT), Andrew McDowell
Post by Andrew McDowell
Post by J. Clarke
On Tue, 25 May 2021 21:31:12 -0700 (PDT), Andrew McDowell
Post by Andrew McDowell
Post by ***@gmail.com
Post by J. Clarke
On Tue, 25 May 2021 15:23:41 -0500, "Michael F. Stemper"
Post by Michael F. Stemper
Post by Michael F. Stemper
Post by Bill Gill
Post by Michael F. Stemper
I just reread "Triplanetary" by Edward E. Smith, PhD. Now that
was real space opera.
And of course when they needed bigger and better weapons they took
a couple of weeks off and developed and deployed them almost
immediately.
I'm drawing a blank here. "Doc" was an engineer, and his stories were
full of episodes showing that development of new technologies was a
difficult process with regular setbacks.
Which bigger and better weapons were painlessly developed and
immediately deployed in _Triplanetary_?
Well, after they met Roger and the Nevians all they had to do was
to analyze the readings on the weapons and shields they faced in
order to replicate them. And they got them built and installed in
very short order. It doesn't take them months in the yards to
figure it all out, design the new systems, and install them all ready
for use.
A little faster than would be realistic, but Doc still showed
the work involved.
I'll grant that teleconferencing between the _Chicago_ and the
Hill for a period of a few weeks, followed by "weeks of
ceaseless work" was probably a bit shorter than realistic.
But, it's hardly "short order".
By the way, if you'd like to really see "theory to working model
<http://www.isfdb.org/cgi-bin/pe.cgi?827>
In the first one, Our Heroes realize that they need <X>. One of
them says, "Oh, by pure coincidence, I just worked out a theory on how
to do that." By close of business, they have an <X>.
I only made it through the first one, and then gave that away, but
reading it shows how far Doc's model of R&D differed from what was
typical in the genre in the 1930s and 1940s.
And one must remember that Doc not have the two examples that we have
of real-world development of science-fiction technologies on an
unlimited-budget crash-program basis--the Manhattan Project and
Apollo. Although one wonders if either of those would have gone
faster if they had had all the resources of three planets behind them.
Another real life example is the development of the various COVID vaccines.
We were lucky in already having years of development on vaccines for SARS
and MERS, which are closely related, and every step was fast tracked 'drop
everything else' at the regulators. Plants to make the vaccines were built before
it was known if they'd work, etc.
Pt
(I liked the point about the pace of weapons development in WWI)
An influential UK advisor during covid and vaccine development is known to have been a fan of the Apollo project, but I have actually heard the Manhattan Project being referenced as a model to follow - to justify the idea of pursuing two alternative approaches in parallel.
To me the pace of _modern_ development is shown by the F-35, not yet fully developed after something like 20 years. The UK is immensely pleased with itself over the Queen Elizabeth II carrier and its sister ship, which have taken nearly as long.
I don't think that either of those has much to do with development
though, the F-35 is really Welfare for aerospace workers--SLS the
same. I don't know enough about what goes on in the UK to comment on
the QEII except to say that the UK was producing perfectly acceptable
aircraft carriers nearly a hundred years ago. SpaceX is a better
example of what can be done in the modern era when the objective is to
_do_ something and not create a jobs program.
It is possible that the F-35 is telling us that a modern fighter plane (which is also almost a mini-AWACS) is a much more complex beast than a Sopwith Camel or a Spitfire, and the development time reflects this. It is also the case that some weapons systems developed at higher speed had (literally) fatal flaws - "There seems to be something wrong with our bloody ships today" is not what you want to be saying. That being said, MoD procurement has earned itself a pretty awful reputation.
It is certainly possible, but it is far more likely that the
manufacturer is milking the program.
Lawrence Watt-Evans
2021-05-26 21:52:38 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Tue, 25 May 2021 21:31:12 -0700 (PDT), Andrew McDowell
Post by Andrew McDowell
An influential UK advisor during covid and vaccine development is known to have been a fan of the Apollo project, but I have actually heard the Manhattan Project being referenced as a model to follow - to justify the idea of pursuing two alternative approaches in parallel.
The Manhattan Project tried a lot more than two approaches, it's just
most were obvious dead ends before they got very far.

My father worked on one of the dead ends. I'm told that long after
the war someone found a way to make it work, but the Manhattan Project
wrote it off late in 1944.

(I'm not being specific because (a) I'm not a nuclear scientist and
never really understood it, and (b) last I heard it was still
classified.)
--
My webpage is at http://www.watt-evans.com
My latest novel is Tom Derringer & the Steam-Powered Saurians.
Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
2021-05-26 21:28:21 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by ***@gmail.com
Another real life example is the development of the various
COVID vaccines. We were lucky in already having years of
development on vaccines for SARS and MERS, which are closely
related, and every step was fast tracked 'drop everything else'
at the regulators. Plants to make the vaccines were built before
it was known if they'd work, etc.
The work on SARS and MERS vaccines were not related to the COVID-19
vaccines, which were based on a different approach entirely (mRNA).
And there was nothing *quick* about it. The idea of using mRNA for
vaccines was first thought of by the people who discoverd it 50 years
ago. Active research on mRNA vaccines has been going on for about 30
years, and it was fortunate they were ready for a practical
application when the pandemic began.

(And it's medical miracle stuff, because now it's a matter of
sequencing a new virus, identifying which proteins matter, and
plugging those into the delivery system. Moderna downloaded the
genome when the Chinese government published it, and had the design
for the vaccine they're distributing now the next day. Eveything else
was testing, human trials and ramping up production.)
--
Terry Austin

Proof that Alan Baker is a liar and a fool, and even stupider than
Lynn:
https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/stats/sw-border-migration
(May 2019 total for people arrested for entering the United States
illegally is over 132,000 for just the southwest border.)

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB
Kevrob
2021-05-27 05:17:25 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
Post by ***@gmail.com
Another real life example is the development of the various
COVID vaccines. We were lucky in already having years of
development on vaccines for SARS and MERS, which are closely
related, and every step was fast tracked 'drop everything else'
at the regulators. Plants to make the vaccines were built before
it was known if they'd work, etc.
The work on SARS and MERS vaccines were not related to the COVID-19
vaccines, which were based on a different approach entirely (mRNA).
And there was nothing *quick* about it. The idea of using mRNA for
vaccines was first thought of by the people who discoverd it 50 years
ago. Active research on mRNA vaccines has been going on for about 30
years, and it was fortunate they were ready for a practical
application when the pandemic began.
(And it's medical miracle stuff, because now it's a matter of
sequencing a new virus, identifying which proteins matter, and
plugging those into the delivery system. Moderna downloaded the
genome when the Chinese government published it, and had the design
for the vaccine they're distributing now the next day. Eveything else
was testing, human trials and ramping up production.)
Not all COVID-19 vaccines use mRNA.

[q
Kevrob
2021-05-27 05:19:37 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Thursday, May 27, 2021 at 1:17:27 AM UTC-4, Kevrob wrote:

[snip]
Post by Kevrob
Not all COVID-19 vaccines use mRNA.
[q
I meant to add:

[quote]

The Janssen/Johnson & Johnson COVID-19 vaccine is a vector vaccine.
AstraZeneca and the University of Oxford are also working on a vector
COVID-19 vaccine.

[/quote] -

https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/coronavirus/in-depth/different-types-of-covid-19-vaccines/art-20506465
--
Kevin R
Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
2021-05-27 16:21:30 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Wednesday, May 26, 2021 at 5:28:27 PM UTC-4, Jibini Kula
Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
Post by ***@gmail.com
Another real life example is the development of the various
COVID vaccines. We were lucky in already having years of
development on vaccines for SARS and MERS, which are closely
related, and every step was fast tracked 'drop everything
else' at the regulators. Plants to make the vaccines were
built before it was known if they'd work, etc.
The work on SARS and MERS vaccines were not related to the
COVID-19 vaccines, which were based on a different approach
entirely (mRNA). And there was nothing *quick* about it. The
idea of using mRNA for vaccines was first thought of by the
people who discoverd it 50 years ago. Active research on mRNA
vaccines has been going on for about 30 years, and it was
fortunate they were ready for a practical application when the
pandemic began.
(And it's medical miracle stuff, because now it's a matter of
sequencing a new virus, identifying which proteins matter, and
plugging those into the delivery system. Moderna downloaded the
genome when the Chinese government published it, and had the
design for the vaccine they're distributing now the next day.
Eveything else was testing, human trials and ramping up
production.)
Not all COVID-19 vaccines use mRNA.
True, but the first two - which are the most effective, especially
against variants - are.
--
Terry Austin

Proof that Alan Baker is a liar and a fool, and even stupider than
Lynn:
https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/stats/sw-border-migration
(May 2019 total for people arrested for entering the United States
illegally is over 132,000 for just the southwest border.)

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB
Quadibloc
2021-05-28 02:57:08 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Kevrob
Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
The work on SARS and MERS vaccines were not related to the COVID-19
vaccines, which were based on a different approach entirely (mRNA).
Not all COVID-19 vaccines use mRNA.
Yes, this is true.

However, the first COVID-19 vaccines to become available, Moderna and Pfizer-BioNTech,
are based on mRNA, so the earliest ones were indeed not related to the previous attempt at
a SARS vaccine for the reason given.

The other vaccines - AstraZeneca, Johnson & Johnson, and Sinovac as well - are based on
a genetically modified adenovirus, which incorporates genetic material from the COVID-19
virus so as to produce an immune response applicable to that virus.

In a web search, I found that the most publicized SARS candidate vaccine was made
using genetically modified yeast to produce a protein similar to one made by the SARS
virus.

And in Canada, researchers had attempted to make a vaccine of the traditional kind,
based on an inactivated virus.

So neither of those were based on either of the techniques used in current COVID-19
vaccines.

John Savard
Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
2021-05-27 22:13:56 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
(And it's medical miracle stuff, because now it's a matter of
sequencing a new virus, identifying which proteins matter, and
plugging those into the delivery system. Moderna downloaded the
genome when the Chinese government published it, and had the
design for the vaccine they're distributing now the next day.
Everything else was testing, human trials and ramping up
production.)
We are indeed living in the modern age of the future! Just
reading the sentence starting "Moderna downloaded ..." is
mind-blowing.
Downloading genomes through the internet is old had these days. Doing
the sequencing in a matter of hours instead of months or years isn't
even particularly new.

I believe the broad-spectrum cornavirus vaccine is about to start
human trials. That will eliminate about half of all common colds.
There's an HIV vaccine close to (or maybe in) human trials. There's
one outfit working on a cancer treatment using the same technology
(as a treatment rather than a vaccine, but to the same effect).
Imagine a routine visit to your doctor, where he tells you "Well, we
found some cancer, so the nurse is going to give you a shot," and . .
. that's it, you're done.

With the hard part of approvals for human use already done, those
will be coming along (if successful, of course) within a few years.
--
Terry Austin

Proof that Alan Baker is a liar and a fool, and even stupider than
Lynn:
https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/stats/sw-border-migration
(May 2019 total for people arrested for entering the United States
illegally is over 132,000 for just the southwest border.)

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB
Quadibloc
2021-05-28 03:00:57 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
I believe the broad-spectrum cornavirus vaccine is about to start
human trials. That will eliminate about half of all common colds.
That's news to me.

I remember recently reading:

- there are about 200 different known viruses which cause the common cold
- *six* of those viruses are coronaviruses; most of them are rhinoviruses
- at least two of the coronaviruses that cause colds cause colds with more
severe symptoms

...and so if a coronavirus vaccine prevented half of all human colds, some of
the coronaviruses that cause colds must be doing more than their share of
the work.

John Savard
Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
2021-05-28 15:21:55 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Thursday, May 27, 2021 at 4:14:00 PM UTC-6, Jibini Kula
Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
I believe the broad-spectrum cornavirus vaccine is about to
start human trials. That will eliminate about half of all
common colds.
That's news to me.
- there are about 200 different known viruses which cause the
common cold - *six* of those viruses are coronaviruses; most of
them are rhinoviruses - at least two of the coronaviruses that
cause colds cause colds with more severe symptoms
...and so if a coronavirus vaccine prevented half of all human
colds, some of the coronaviruses that cause colds must be doing
more than their share of the work.
The off the cuff mentions I've seen have been that half of common
colds are caused by cornoaviruses.

It is entirely possible that those six coronaviruses cause half the
colds out there, even if there are many other viruses that also cause
colds.
--
Terry Austin

Proof that Alan Baker is a liar and a fool, and even stupider than
Lynn:
https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/stats/sw-border-migration
(May 2019 total for people arrested for entering the United States
illegally is over 132,000 for just the southwest border.)

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB
Christian Weisgerber
2021-05-28 15:44:39 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
I believe the broad-spectrum cornavirus vaccine is about to start
human trials.
Reference? I haven't even heard that such a thing is in the works and
you'd think that would be big news. What antigen are they targeting?
Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
That will eliminate about half of all common colds.
Reference? Has anybody done enough sequencing to support such a
claim? For instance, the Robert Koch Institute runs a number of
surveillance systems in Germany (not globally representative!) for
infectious respiratory diseases. Looking at their results in recent
months, they identify respiratory viruses in about half the samples
they receive from symptomatic patients. It's a motley collection
of rhinoviruses, human seasonal coronaviruses, SARS-CoV-2, parainfluenza
viruses, and the occasional human metapneumovirus. Given the low
number of samples--double digits per week--I wouldn't want to draw
conclusions too firmly, but the human seasonal coronaviruses mostly
stay well below 10% of the samples.
https://influenza.rki.de/wochenberichte.aspx
Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
There's an HIV vaccine close to (or maybe in) human trials.
Have a reference handy?
Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
There's one outfit working on a cancer treatment using the same
technology (as a treatment rather than a vaccine, but to the same
effect).
Duh, yes. BioNTech for starters were working on applying mRNA
technology in the cancer field when COVID-19 hit and they could
offer their vaccine as a byproduct of that work.
Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
Imagine a routine visit to your doctor, where he tells you "Well, we
found some cancer, so the nurse is going to give you a shot," and . .
. that's it, you're done.
More likely it's going to show up as part of the "chemo" you receive
from your oncologist.
Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
With the hard part of approvals for human use already done, those
will be coming along (if successful, of course) within a few years.
All of those will require individual clinical tests and approvals.
--
Christian "naddy" Weisgerber ***@mips.inka.de
Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
2021-05-28 16:49:03 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On 2021-05-27, Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
I believe the broad-spectrum cornavirus vaccine is about to
start human trials.
Reference?
I haven't kept a list, but it only took a couple of seconds at
Google to find this:

http://www.pharmatimes.com/news/conserv_bioscience_to_develop_broad
-spectrum_coronavirus_vaccine_1361587

https://tinyurl.com/h9wbppfy

"The vaccine has been designed to enable broad-spectrum protection
against coronavirus pathogens originating from humans and animals,
including MERS, SARS and SARS-CoV-2.

"The vaccine candidate consists of conserved immunoreactive regions
from external and internal coronavirus proteins encoded in
messenger RNA (mRNA)."

“We have identified regions within the proteins of the virus that
are not susceptible to change and, if effective, the vaccine
promises to protect against a broad spectrum of current circulating
coronavirus strains and future emergent ones,”

This is dated January 20, this year, over 4 months ago.
I haven't even heard that such a thing is in the
works and you'd think that would be big news. What antigen are
they targeting?
It hasn't gotten widespread coverage, presumably because it doesn't
instill fear and panic, and thus, doesn't sell advertising.
Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
That will eliminate about half of all common colds.
Reference?
Off hand references in various news articles. Google links say it's
20%, at least the one that I found in less than five seconds. Which
is still a big win.
Has anybody done enough sequencing to support such a
claim? For instance, the Robert Koch Institute runs a number of
surveillance systems in Germany (not globally representative!)
for infectious respiratory diseases. Looking at their results
in recent months, they identify respiratory viruses in about
half the samples they receive from symptomatic patients. It's a
motley collection of rhinoviruses, human seasonal coronaviruses,
SARS-CoV-2, parainfluenza viruses, and the occasional human
metapneumovirus. Given the low number of samples--double digits
per week--I wouldn't want to draw conclusions too firmly, but
the human seasonal coronaviruses mostly stay well below 10% of
the samples. https://influenza.rki.de/wochenberichte.aspx
Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
There's an HIV vaccine close to (or maybe in) human trials.
Have a reference handy?
Again, in less than five seconds, I found this:

https://www.biopharma-reporter.com/Article/2021/04/15/Moderna-to-
take-mRNA-flu-and-HIV-vaccines-into-Phase-1-trials-this-year

https://tinyurl.com/3pys58em

"Moderna expects to begin three phase 1 clinical trials for two HIV
vaccine candidates, mRNA-1644 and mRNA-1574, in 2021."

So not one, but two HIV vaccines, going into human trials this
year. From one company. (I suspect there are others working on it,
too, but if you want references, you can do your own fucking
search.)

The same article also discusses the flu and a couple other vaccines
that are either in development or into human trials already.
Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
There's one outfit working on a cancer treatment using the same
technology (as a treatment rather than a vaccine, but to the
same effect).
Duh, yes. BioNTech for starters were working on applying mRNA
technology in the cancer field when COVID-19 hit and they could
offer their vaccine as a byproduct of that work.
References? (You had that coming.)
Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
Imagine a routine visit to your doctor, where he tells you
"Well, we found some cancer, so the nurse is going to give you
a shot," and . . . that's it, you're done.
More likely it's going to show up as part of the "chemo" you
receive from your oncologist.
Not if it's as effective as the current mRNA vaccines are. There's
be no point, and chemo itself is pretty nasty. Current data from
the CDC says that the odds of ending up in the hospital with COVID
after two weeks after the last shot is about 1 in 100,000 (do your
own fucking search if you want a reference), with one of three of
those being in the hospital *with* COVID, but not being in the
hospital *because* *of* COVID, with deaths at about 1 in 500,000.

That's an end game goal, and there's a lot of work to be done
before we can even say it's likely, but it certainly is promising.
Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
With the hard part of approvals for human use already done,
those will be coming along (if successful, of course) within a
few years.
All of those will require individual clinical tests and
approvals.
Yes, they will. But it will, after a few more rounds of testing
like we saw with the current viruses, it will be more like the
testing done on flu vaccines every year. They won't have to start
from scratch every time.
--
Terry Austin

Proof that Alan Baker is a liar and a fool, and even stupider than
Lynn:
https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/stats/sw-border-migration
(May 2019 total for people arrested for entering the United States
illegally is over 132,000 for just the southwest border.)

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB
J. Clarke
2021-05-28 19:39:22 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Fri, 28 May 2021 15:44:39 -0000 (UTC), Christian Weisgerber
Post by Christian Weisgerber
Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
I believe the broad-spectrum cornavirus vaccine is about to start
human trials.
Reference? I haven't even heard that such a thing is in the works and
you'd think that would be big news. What antigen are they targeting?
Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
That will eliminate about half of all common colds.
Reference? Has anybody done enough sequencing to support such a
claim? For instance, the Robert Koch Institute runs a number of
surveillance systems in Germany (not globally representative!) for
infectious respiratory diseases. Looking at their results in recent
months, they identify respiratory viruses in about half the samples
they receive from symptomatic patients. It's a motley collection
of rhinoviruses, human seasonal coronaviruses, SARS-CoV-2, parainfluenza
viruses, and the occasional human metapneumovirus. Given the low
number of samples--double digits per week--I wouldn't want to draw
conclusions too firmly, but the human seasonal coronaviruses mostly
stay well below 10% of the samples.
https://influenza.rki.de/wochenberichte.aspx
Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
There's an HIV vaccine close to (or maybe in) human trials.
Have a reference handy?
<https://www.scripps.edu/news-and-events/press-room/2021/20210203-hiv-vaccine.html>

Seems to be more validating an approach than testing a finished
vaccine though.
Post by Christian Weisgerber
Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
There's one outfit working on a cancer treatment using the same
technology (as a treatment rather than a vaccine, but to the same
effect).
Duh, yes. BioNTech for starters were working on applying mRNA
technology in the cancer field when COVID-19 hit and they could
offer their vaccine as a byproduct of that work.
Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
Imagine a routine visit to your doctor, where he tells you "Well, we
found some cancer, so the nurse is going to give you a shot," and . .
. that's it, you're done.
More likely it's going to show up as part of the "chemo" you receive
from your oncologist.
Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
With the hard part of approvals for human use already done, those
will be coming along (if successful, of course) within a few years.
All of those will require individual clinical tests and approvals.
Robert Carnegie
2021-05-28 19:45:25 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by J. Clarke
On Fri, 28 May 2021 15:44:39 -0000 (UTC), Christian Weisgerber
Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
I believe the broad-spectrum cornavirus vaccine is about to start
human trials.
Reference? I haven't even heard that such a thing is in the works and
you'd think that would be big news. What antigen are they targeting?
Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
That will eliminate about half of all common colds.
Reference? Has anybody done enough sequencing to support such a
claim? For instance, the Robert Koch Institute runs a number of
surveillance systems in Germany (not globally representative!) for
infectious respiratory diseases. Looking at their results in recent
months, they identify respiratory viruses in about half the samples
they receive from symptomatic patients. It's a motley collection
of rhinoviruses, human seasonal coronaviruses, SARS-CoV-2, parainfluenza
viruses, and the occasional human metapneumovirus. Given the low
number of samples--double digits per week--I wouldn't want to draw
conclusions too firmly, but the human seasonal coronaviruses mostly
stay well below 10% of the samples.
https://influenza.rki.de/wochenberichte.aspx
Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
There's an HIV vaccine close to (or maybe in) human trials.
Have a reference handy?
<https://www.scripps.edu/news-and-events/press-room/2021/20210203-hiv-vaccine.html>
Seems to be more validating an approach than testing a finished
vaccine though.
Oh dear, somebody misled people on the internet.
What a pity.
Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
2021-05-28 21:59:26 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by J. Clarke
On Fri, 28 May 2021 15:44:39 -0000 (UTC), Christian Weisgerber
On 2021-05-27, Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
I believe the broad-spectrum cornavirus vaccine is about to
start human trials.
Reference? I haven't even heard that such a thing is in the
works and you'd think that would be big news. What antigen are
they targeting?
Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
That will eliminate about half of all common colds.
Reference? Has anybody done enough sequencing to support such a
claim? For instance, the Robert Koch Institute runs a number of
surveillance systems in Germany (not globally representative!)
for infectious respiratory diseases. Looking at their results
in recent months, they identify respiratory viruses in about
half the samples they receive from symptomatic patients. It's a
motley collection of rhinoviruses, human seasonal coronaviruses,
SARS-CoV-2, parainfluenza viruses, and the occasional human
metapneumovirus. Given the low number of samples--double digits
per week--I wouldn't want to draw conclusions too firmly, but
the human seasonal coronaviruses mostly stay well below 10% of
the samples. https://influenza.rki.de/wochenberichte.aspx
Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
There's an HIV vaccine close to (or maybe in) human trials.
Have a reference handy?
<https://www.scripps.edu/news-and-events/press-room/2021/20210203
-hiv-vaccine.html>
Seems to be more validating an approach than testing a finished
vaccine though.
Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
There's one outfit working on a cancer treatment using the
same technology (as a treatment rather than a vaccine, but to
the same effect).
Duh, yes. BioNTech for starters were working on applying mRNA
technology in the cancer field when COVID-19 hit and they could
offer their vaccine as a byproduct of that work.
Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
Imagine a routine visit to your doctor, where he tells you
"Well, we found some cancer, so the nurse is going to give you
a shot," and . . . that's it, you're done.
More likely it's going to show up as part of the "chemo" you
receive from your oncologist.
Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
With the hard part of approvals for human use already done,
those will be coming along (if successful, of course) within a
few years.
All of those will require individual clinical tests and
approvals.
It's a phase I clicinial trial, retard. That is the 3rd to last
step to widespread use.

"The study sets the stage for additional clinical trials that will
seek to refine and extend the approach—with the long-term goal of
creating a safe and effective HIV vaccine."

Dumbass.
--
Terry Austin

Proof that Alan Baker is a liar and a fool, and even stupider than
Lynn:
https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/stats/sw-border-migration
(May 2019 total for people arrested for entering the United States
illegally is over 132,000 for just the southwest border.)

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB
smw
2021-05-28 22:49:06 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Christian Weisgerber
Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
I believe the broad-spectrum cornavirus vaccine is about to start
human trials.
Reference? I haven't even heard that such a thing is in the works and
you'd think that would be big news.
I hadn't either, and I would also expect it to be big news. But I just did
a web search and found this:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7940144/

The full text is available; here's the abstract:

Stem Cell Reports. 2021 Mar 9; 16(3): 398–411.
Published online 2021 Mar 9. doi: 10.1016/j.stemcr.2020.12.010

Broad-Spectrum Anti-coronavirus Vaccines and Therapeutics to Combat the
Current COVID-19 Pandemic and Future Coronavirus Disease Outbreaks

Miao Cao, Xiaojie Su, and Shibo Jiang

Abstract

While the COVID-19 pandemic caused by SARS-CoV-2 is continuing, it may
become worse in the coming winter months with a high potential for the
emergence and spread of escape variants of SARS-CoV-2. SARS-related CoVs
(SARSr-CoVs) from bats may also cause outbreaks of emerging coronavirus
diseases in the future. These predictions call for the development of
broad-spectrum anti-coronavirus vaccines and therapeutics to combat the
current COVID-19 pandemic and future emerging coronavirus disease
epidemics. In this review, we describe advances and challenges in the
development of broad-spectrum vaccines and neutralizing antibodies
against lineage B betacoronaviruses (β-CoV-Bs), including SARS-CoV-2,
SARS-CoV, and SARSr-CoVs, as well as peptide-based pan-CoV fusion
inhibitors and their potential in the prevention and treatment of
COVID-19 and other human coronavirus infections.

Key words: broad-spectrum, vaccine, therapeutic, coronavirus, COVID-19,
spike protein

There's also

https://www.news-medical.net/news/20210413/Researchers-develop-broad-spectrum-SARS-CoV-2-RBD-based-vaccine.aspx

This one comes up 503 (service unavailable), at least for me and at least
at this time. But Google has a cached copy here:

https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:1WsFsa8bpnIJ:https://www.news-medical.net/news/20210413/Researchers-develop-broad-spectrum-SARS-CoV-2-RBD-based-vaccine.aspx+

This one isn't a research paper, but the author has a Ph.D in biotechnology.
I won't quote the whole article, but here's an excerpt of interest:

Studies have demonstrated the potential for RBD-based vaccines
(co-formulated with adjuvants) being efficacious against SARS-CoV-2
variants and other coronavirus species. To address the many challenges
to control current pandemic and future outbreaks, a team of researchers
in the U.S. has developed a highly efficient and broad-spectrum vaccine.

In a recent bioRxiv* preprint
[ https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.04.09.439166v1 ],
the large team of researchers evaluated a SARS-CoV-2 Spike
receptor-binding domain ferritin nanoparticle protein vaccine (RFN) in a
nonhuman primate challenge model. This study addresses the need for a
next-generation, efficacious vaccine with an increased pan-SARS breadth
of coverage.

The researchers showed that the RFN, adjuvanted with a liposomal-QS21
formulation (ALFQ), elicits humoral and cellular immune responses
exceeding those of current vaccines in terms of breadth and potency and
protects against high-dose respiratory tract challenge.

This study showed that immunization with the RFN induces robust and
broad antibody and T cell responses, as well as protection against viral
replication and lung pathology following high-dose respiratory tract
challenge in the nonhuman primate model, rhesus macaques.

So work is definitely being done in this area, although it isn't clear how
close it may be to readiness for human trials.

- Steven
--
___________________________________________________________________________
Steven Winikoff |
Montreal, QC, Canada | "The easiest way to solve a problem is
***@smwonline.ca | to deny it exists."
http://smwonline.ca |
| - Isaac Asimov
pete...@gmail.com
2021-05-28 23:29:36 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
I believe the broad-spectrum cornavirus vaccine is about to start
human trials.
Reference? I haven't even heard that such a thing is in the works and
you'd think that would be big news. What antigen are they targeting?
There are a number underway. Here's one: http://www.osivax.com/coronavirus.html
Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
That will eliminate about half of all common colds.
Reference? Has anybody done enough sequencing to support such a
claim? For instance, the Robert Koch Institute runs a number of
surveillance systems in Germany (not globally representative!) for
infectious respiratory diseases. Looking at their results in recent
months, they identify respiratory viruses in about half the samples
they receive from symptomatic patients. It's a motley collection
of rhinoviruses, human seasonal coronaviruses, SARS-CoV-2, parainfluenza
viruses, and the occasional human metapneumovirus. Given the low
number of samples--double digits per week--I wouldn't want to draw
conclusions too firmly, but the human seasonal coronaviruses mostly
stay well below 10% of the samples.
https://influenza.rki.de/wochenberichte.aspx
Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
There's an HIV vaccine close to (or maybe in) human trials.
Have a reference handy?
Again, I haven't looked hard, but
https://www.scripps.edu/news-and-events/press-room/2021/20210203-hiv-vaccine.html

Pt
Michael F. Stemper
2021-05-28 16:43:21 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
I believe the broad-spectrum cornavirus vaccine is about to start
human trials. That will eliminate about half of all common colds.
Alan E. Nourse looked at one possible outcome of this in "The Coffin
Cure":
<http://www.isfdb.org/cgi-bin/title.cgi?45956>
Without those nasty rhinoviruses, our sense of smell could be much
better.

As he was an M.D., I consider his view on it at least plausible.
--
Michael F. Stemper
Nostalgia just ain't what it used to be.
Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
2021-05-28 16:54:02 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Michael F. Stemper
Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
I believe the broad-spectrum cornavirus vaccine is about to
start human trials. That will eliminate about half of all
common colds.
Alan E. Nourse looked at one possible outcome of this in "The
<http://www.isfdb.org/cgi-bin/title.cgi?45956>
Without those nasty rhinoviruses, our sense of smell could be
much better.
As he was an M.D., I consider his view on it at least plausible.
I suspect that, as with nearly all fiction, especially science
fiction, there is some real life factoid that has been exaggerated
beyond recoginition for dramatic effect.

Beacuse if it were kept realistic, there wouldn't be much of a story.
--
Terry Austin

Proof that Alan Baker is a liar and a fool, and even stupider than
Lynn:
https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/stats/sw-border-migration
(May 2019 total for people arrested for entering the United States
illegally is over 132,000 for just the southwest border.)

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB
Michael F. Stemper
2021-05-28 17:25:30 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
Post by Michael F. Stemper
Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
I believe the broad-spectrum cornavirus vaccine is about to
start human trials. That will eliminate about half of all
common colds.
Alan E. Nourse looked at one possible outcome of this in "The
<http://www.isfdb.org/cgi-bin/title.cgi?45956>
Without those nasty rhinoviruses, our sense of smell could be
much better.
As he was an M.D., I consider his view on it at least plausible.
I suspect that, as with nearly all fiction, especially science
fiction, there is some real life factoid that has been exaggerated
beyond recoginition for dramatic effect.
Sure. Exaggeration comes with the territory. I'm not saying and he's
not saying "eliminating the common cold will give us all omnipotent
olfactory powers." It's just one possible outcome that he explores.

But when an M.D. writes a story showing this as a possible outcome,
I give it more credence than I would if RAH wrote a story about how
eliminating the common cold would turn us all into oversexed redheaded
libertarians.
--
Michael F. Stemper
Why doesn't anybody care about apathy?
Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
2021-05-28 17:56:48 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Michael F. Stemper
Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
Post by Michael F. Stemper
Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
I believe the broad-spectrum cornavirus vaccine is about to
start human trials. That will eliminate about half of all
common colds.
Alan E. Nourse looked at one possible outcome of this in "The
<http://www.isfdb.org/cgi-bin/title.cgi?45956>
Without those nasty rhinoviruses, our sense of smell could be
much better.
As he was an M.D., I consider his view on it at least
plausible.
I suspect that, as with nearly all fiction, especially science
fiction, there is some real life factoid that has been
exaggerated beyond recoginition for dramatic effect.
Sure. Exaggeration comes with the territory. I'm not saying and
he's not saying "eliminating the common cold will give us all
omnipotent olfactory powers." It's just one possible outcome
that he explores.
But when an M.D. writes a story showing this as a possible
outcome, I give it more credence than I would if RAH wrote a
story about how eliminating the common cold would turn us all
into oversexed redheaded libertarians.
He is, however, ignoring the rather extensive testing that is done
on vaccines in real life. That story is often used as an
illustration of why. Even the COVID vaccines, rushed as they were,
would have turned up side effects that take six months to appear.
--
Terry Austin

Proof that Alan Baker is a liar and a fool, and even stupider than
Lynn:
https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/stats/sw-border-migration
(May 2019 total for people arrested for entering the United States
illegally is over 132,000 for just the southwest border.)

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB
Dorothy J Heydt
2021-05-28 18:06:05 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Michael F. Stemper
Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
Post by Michael F. Stemper
Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
I believe the broad-spectrum cornavirus vaccine is about to
start human trials. That will eliminate about half of all
common colds.
Alan E. Nourse looked at one possible outcome of this in "The
<http://www.isfdb.org/cgi-bin/title.cgi?45956>
Without those nasty rhinoviruses, our sense of smell could be
much better.
As he was an M.D., I consider his view on it at least plausible.
I suspect that, as with nearly all fiction, especially science
fiction, there is some real life factoid that has been exaggerated
beyond recoginition for dramatic effect.
Sure. Exaggeration comes with the territory. I'm not saying and he's
not saying "eliminating the common cold will give us all omnipotent
olfactory powers." It's just one possible outcome that he explores.
But when an M.D. writes a story showing this as a possible outcome,
I give it more credence than I would if RAH wrote a story about how
eliminating the common cold would turn us all into oversexed redheaded
libertarians.
Dream on, dear.

See also my post upthread about how (AFAICT) in 1957 it had not
yet been ascertained that there are a great many rhinoviruses,
each capable of producing "the common cold."
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/
Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
2021-05-28 18:28:58 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Michael F. Stemper
Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
Post by Michael F. Stemper
Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
I believe the broad-spectrum cornavirus vaccine is about to
start human trials. That will eliminate about half of all
common colds.
Alan E. Nourse looked at one possible outcome of this in "The
<http://www.isfdb.org/cgi-bin/title.cgi?45956>
Without those nasty rhinoviruses, our sense of smell could be
much better.
As he was an M.D., I consider his view on it at least
plausible.
I suspect that, as with nearly all fiction, especially science
fiction, there is some real life factoid that has been
exaggerated beyond recoginition for dramatic effect.
Sure. Exaggeration comes with the territory. I'm not saying and
he's not saying "eliminating the common cold will give us all
omnipotent olfactory powers." It's just one possible outcome
that he explores.
But when an M.D. writes a story showing this as a possible
outcome, I give it more credence than I would if RAH wrote a
story about how eliminating the common cold would turn us all
into oversexed redheaded libertarians.
Dream on, dear.
See also my post upthread about how (AFAICT) in 1957 it had not
yet been ascertained that there are a great many rhinoviruses,
each capable of producing "the common cold."
If you want to examine the plausibility of medical tales told by
physicians, I recommend going through last 15 months of press
releases by Dr. Anthony Fauci. Bonus points if you can tally up the
total number of times he's a) reversed his recommendation, and b)
publicly admitted he deliberate lied.
--
Terry Austin

Proof that Alan Baker is a liar and a fool, and even stupider than
Lynn:
https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/stats/sw-border-migration
(May 2019 total for people arrested for entering the United States
illegally is over 132,000 for just the southwest border.)

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB
Quadibloc
2021-05-28 19:09:08 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
If you want to examine the plausibility of medical tales told by
physicians, I recommend going through last 15 months of press
releases by Dr. Anthony Fauci. Bonus points if you can tally up the
total number of times he's a) reversed his recommendation, and b)
publicly admitted he deliberate lied.
Really?

According to The Washington Post and Stephen Colbert, his batting average
was much better than Donald Trump's.

John Savard
J. Clarke
2021-05-28 19:43:50 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Fri, 28 May 2021 12:09:08 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc
Post by Quadibloc
Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
If you want to examine the plausibility of medical tales told by
physicians, I recommend going through last 15 months of press
releases by Dr. Anthony Fauci. Bonus points if you can tally up the
total number of times he's a) reversed his recommendation, and b)
publicly admitted he deliberate lied.
Really?
According to The Washington Post and Stephen Colbert, his batting average
was much better than Donald Trump's.
A blind paraplegic demented squirrel going up against a major league
pitcher would have a better batting average than Donald Trump. You're
setting a very low bar.
Dorothy J Heydt
2021-05-28 20:39:38 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Quadibloc
Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
If you want to examine the plausibility of medical tales told by
physicians, I recommend going through last 15 months of press
releases by Dr. Anthony Fauci. Bonus points if you can tally up the
total number of times he's a) reversed his recommendation, and b)
publicly admitted he deliberate lied.
Really?
According to The Washington Post and Stephen Colbert, his batting average
was much better than Donald Trump's.
Which is a very low bar, indeed.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/
Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
2021-05-28 21:56:20 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Friday, May 28, 2021 at 12:29:03 PM UTC-6, Jibini Kula
Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
If you want to examine the plausibility of medical tales told
by physicians, I recommend going through last 15 months of
press releases by Dr. Anthony Fauci. Bonus points if you can
tally up the total number of times he's a) reversed his
recommendation, and b) publicly admitted he deliberate lied.
Really?
Really.
According to The Washington Post and Stephen Colbert, his
batting average was much better than Donald Trump's.
Two of hte most biased propaganda sources in the world today.

The *most* accurate thing anybody has said was Trump's statement
that we would have a vaccine within a year, and we . . . had two
vaccines within a year.

Meanwhile, Fauci has seesawed between don't wear masks to everybody
wear a mask to wear two. T-cells from other coronavirus infections
provide significant protection to having no effect at all. There's
no reason to close schools to we need $1.9 trillion to have any
hope of reopening schols ever. Lockdowns should be very short to
don't you dare ever leave your basement again. And so on and so on
and so on.

And he has publicly admitted to lying about the percentage of
people who need to be vaccinated to achieve herd immunity because,
in his opinion, nobody can hope to survive without him telling us
all how to live.

Right off hand, I can't think of a single grand pronouncement he's
made that he hasn't either reversed himself on, or turned out to be
completely wrong about.
--
Terry Austin

Proof that Alan Baker is a liar and a fool, and even stupider than
Lynn:
https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/stats/sw-border-migration
(May 2019 total for people arrested for entering the United States
illegally is over 132,000 for just the southwest border.)

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB
Paul S Person
2021-05-29 16:50:50 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Fri, 28 May 2021 14:56:20 -0700, Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
On Friday, May 28, 2021 at 12:29:03 PM UTC-6, Jibini Kula
Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
If you want to examine the plausibility of medical tales told
by physicians, I recommend going through last 15 months of
press releases by Dr. Anthony Fauci. Bonus points if you can
tally up the total number of times he's a) reversed his
recommendation, and b) publicly admitted he deliberate lied.
Really?
Really.
According to The Washington Post and Stephen Colbert, his
batting average was much better than Donald Trump's.
Two of hte most biased propaganda sources in the world today.
The *most* accurate thing anybody has said was Trump's statement
that we would have a vaccine within a year, and we . . . had two
vaccines within a year.
Meanwhile, Fauci has seesawed between don't wear masks to everybody
wear a mask to wear two. T-cells from other coronavirus infections
provide significant protection to having no effect at all. There's
no reason to close schools to we need $1.9 trillion to have any
hope of reopening schols ever. Lockdowns should be very short to
don't you dare ever leave your basement again. And so on and so on
and so on.
And he has publicly admitted to lying about the percentage of
people who need to be vaccinated to achieve herd immunity because,
in his opinion, nobody can hope to survive without him telling us
all how to live.
Right off hand, I can't think of a single grand pronouncement he's
made that he hasn't either reversed himself on, or turned out to be
completely wrong about.
This is nonsense. Or, rather, Trump Talking Points. Which comes to the
same thing.

Fauci is a scentist -- which means he goes where the data lead him.
And changes his recommendation when needed. It is the science-deniers
who insist that, once Science has spoken, it must /never/ change its
mind.

He doesn't know how many people need to be vaccinated to produce herd
immunity -- nobody does and nobody will until we start opening up
again and see if there is any correlation between the percent
vaccinated in a given State and how long it takes for that State to be
back in Italian Triage Mode. Or for it to be clear that, for that
State and percent vaccinated, herd immunity has been achieved.

Herd immunity, IIRC, is not a fixed percentage. It various from
disease to disease. We just don't have enough experience with the
current beastie to know what its percentage is.
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."
Ninapenda Jibini
2021-05-29 19:41:23 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Paul S Person
On Fri, 28 May 2021 14:56:20 -0700, Jibini Kula Tumbili
Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
On Friday, May 28, 2021 at 12:29:03 PM UTC-6, Jibini Kula
Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
If you want to examine the plausibility of medical tales told
by physicians, I recommend going through last 15 months of
press releases by Dr. Anthony Fauci. Bonus points if you can
tally up the total number of times he's a) reversed his
recommendation, and b) publicly admitted he deliberate lied.
Really?
Really.
According to The Washington Post and Stephen Colbert, his
batting average was much better than Donald Trump's.
Two of hte most biased propaganda sources in the world today.
The *most* accurate thing anybody has said was Trump's statement
that we would have a vaccine within a year, and we . . . had two
vaccines within a year.
Meanwhile, Fauci has seesawed between don't wear masks to
everybody wear a mask to wear two. T-cells from other
coronavirus infections provide significant protection to having
no effect at all. There's no reason to close schools to we need
$1.9 trillion to have any hope of reopening schols ever.
Lockdowns should be very short to don't you dare ever leave your
basement again. And so on and so on and so on.
And he has publicly admitted to lying about the percentage of
people who need to be vaccinated to achieve herd immunity
because, in his opinion, nobody can hope to survive without him
telling us all how to live.
Right off hand, I can't think of a single grand pronouncement
he's made that he hasn't either reversed himself on, or turned
out to be completely wrong about.
This is nonsense. Or, rather, Trump Talking Points. Which comes
to the same thing.
You're slurping down the TDS propaganda again. It's all well
documented in news archives.
Post by Paul S Person
Fauci is a scentist
Fauci is a bureaucrat with a great fondness for cameras. It's not
clear he was *ever* a scientist, but he certainly isn't *now*.
Post by Paul S Person
-- which means he goes where the data lead
him. And changes his recommendation when needed. It is the
science-deniers who insist that, once Science has spoken, it
must /never/ change its mind.
He changes his recommendation when he realized he hasn't been on
TV for a while. That appears to be his *only* criteria.
Post by Paul S Person
He doesn't know how many people need to be vaccinated to produce
herd immunity -- nobody does and nobody will until we start
opening up again and see if there is any correlation between the
percent vaccinated in a given State and how long it takes for
that State to be back in Italian Triage Mode. Or for it to be
clear that, for that State and percent vaccinated, herd immunity
has been achieved.
He *admitted* to lying. In his own words. Hallucinate all you want
to the contrary, the interview is out there.
Post by Paul S Person
Herd immunity, IIRC, is not a fixed percentage. It various from
disease to disease. We just don't have enough experience with
the current beastie to know what its percentage is.
None of which changes his admission.
--
Terry Austin

Proof that Alan Baker is a liar and a fool, and even stupider than
Lynn:
https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/stats/sw-border-migration


"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.
Alan Baker
2021-05-29 19:53:38 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Ninapenda Jibini
Post by Paul S Person
On Fri, 28 May 2021 14:56:20 -0700, Jibini Kula Tumbili
Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
On Friday, May 28, 2021 at 12:29:03 PM UTC-6, Jibini Kula
Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
If you want to examine the plausibility of medical tales told
by physicians, I recommend going through last 15 months of
press releases by Dr. Anthony Fauci. Bonus points if you can
tally up the total number of times he's a) reversed his
recommendation, and b) publicly admitted he deliberate lied.
Really?
Really.
According to The Washington Post and Stephen Colbert, his
batting average was much better than Donald Trump's.
Two of hte most biased propaganda sources in the world today.
The *most* accurate thing anybody has said was Trump's statement
that we would have a vaccine within a year, and we . . . had two
vaccines within a year.
Meanwhile, Fauci has seesawed between don't wear masks to
everybody wear a mask to wear two. T-cells from other
coronavirus infections provide significant protection to having
no effect at all. There's no reason to close schools to we need
$1.9 trillion to have any hope of reopening schols ever.
Lockdowns should be very short to don't you dare ever leave your
basement again. And so on and so on and so on.
And he has publicly admitted to lying about the percentage of
people who need to be vaccinated to achieve herd immunity
because, in his opinion, nobody can hope to survive without him
telling us all how to live.
Right off hand, I can't think of a single grand pronouncement
he's made that he hasn't either reversed himself on, or turned
out to be completely wrong about.
This is nonsense. Or, rather, Trump Talking Points. Which comes
to the same thing.
You're slurping down the TDS propaganda again. It's all well
documented in news archives.
Post by Paul S Person
Fauci is a scentist
Fauci is a bureaucrat with a great fondness for cameras. It's not
clear he was *ever* a scientist, but he certainly isn't *now*.
Post by Paul S Person
-- which means he goes where the data lead
him. And changes his recommendation when needed. It is the
science-deniers who insist that, once Science has spoken, it
must /never/ change its mind.
He changes his recommendation when he realized he hasn't been on
TV for a while. That appears to be his *only* criteria.
Post by Paul S Person
He doesn't know how many people need to be vaccinated to produce
herd immunity -- nobody does and nobody will until we start
opening up again and see if there is any correlation between the
percent vaccinated in a given State and how long it takes for
that State to be back in Italian Triage Mode. Or for it to be
clear that, for that State and percent vaccinated, herd immunity
has been achieved.
He *admitted* to lying. In his own words. Hallucinate all you want
to the contrary, the interview is out there.
But you'll never produce it.
Post by Ninapenda Jibini
Post by Paul S Person
Herd immunity, IIRC, is not a fixed percentage. It various from
disease to disease. We just don't have enough experience with
the current beastie to know what its percentage is.
None of which changes his admission.
And admission you can't quote.

Got it.
pete...@gmail.com
2021-05-29 21:06:28 UTC
Reply
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Post by Paul S Person
On Fri, 28 May 2021 14:56:20 -0700, Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
On Friday, May 28, 2021 at 12:29:03 PM UTC-6, Jibini Kula
Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
If you want to examine the plausibility of medical tales told
by physicians, I recommend going through last 15 months of
press releases by Dr. Anthony Fauci. Bonus points if you can
tally up the total number of times he's a) reversed his
recommendation, and b) publicly admitted he deliberate lied.
Really?
Really.
According to The Washington Post and Stephen Colbert, his
batting average was much better than Donald Trump's.
Two of hte most biased propaganda sources in the world today.
The *most* accurate thing anybody has said was Trump's statement
that we would have a vaccine within a year, and we . . . had two
vaccines within a year.
Meanwhile, Fauci has seesawed between don't wear masks to everybody
wear a mask to wear two. T-cells from other coronavirus infections
provide significant protection to having no effect at all. There's
no reason to close schools to we need $1.9 trillion to have any
hope of reopening schols ever. Lockdowns should be very short to
don't you dare ever leave your basement again. And so on and so on
and so on.
And he has publicly admitted to lying about the percentage of
people who need to be vaccinated to achieve herd immunity because,
in his opinion, nobody can hope to survive without him telling us
all how to live.
Right off hand, I can't think of a single grand pronouncement he's
made that he hasn't either reversed himself on, or turned out to be
completely wrong about.
This is nonsense. Or, rather, Trump Talking Points. Which comes to the
same thing.
You're operating on the false assumption that Terry argues in good faith. He's
just an Alan Baker obsessed troll seeking attention, and will say literally *anything*
to get it.

Pt
Paul S Person
2021-05-30 16:27:58 UTC
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Post by ***@gmail.com
Post by Paul S Person
On Fri, 28 May 2021 14:56:20 -0700, Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
On Friday, May 28, 2021 at 12:29:03 PM UTC-6, Jibini Kula
Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
If you want to examine the plausibility of medical tales told
by physicians, I recommend going through last 15 months of
press releases by Dr. Anthony Fauci. Bonus points if you can
tally up the total number of times he's a) reversed his
recommendation, and b) publicly admitted he deliberate lied.
Really?
Really.
According to The Washington Post and Stephen Colbert, his
batting average was much better than Donald Trump's.
Two of hte most biased propaganda sources in the world today.
The *most* accurate thing anybody has said was Trump's statement
that we would have a vaccine within a year, and we . . . had two
vaccines within a year.
Meanwhile, Fauci has seesawed between don't wear masks to everybody
wear a mask to wear two. T-cells from other coronavirus infections
provide significant protection to having no effect at all. There's
no reason to close schools to we need $1.9 trillion to have any
hope of reopening schols ever. Lockdowns should be very short to
don't you dare ever leave your basement again. And so on and so on
and so on.
And he has publicly admitted to lying about the percentage of
people who need to be vaccinated to achieve herd immunity because,
in his opinion, nobody can hope to survive without him telling us
all how to live.
Right off hand, I can't think of a single grand pronouncement he's
made that he hasn't either reversed himself on, or turned out to be
completely wrong about.
This is nonsense. Or, rather, Trump Talking Points. Which comes to the
same thing.
You're operating on the false assumption that Terry argues in good faith. He's
just an Alan Baker obsessed troll seeking attention, and will say literally *anything*
to get it.
That may have been true at one time, but I have learned from
experience.

Still, sometimes he makes points that are worth responding to.

Even if they are entirely dismissable.
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."
Ninapenda Jibini
2021-05-30 16:40:22 UTC
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Post by Paul S Person
On Saturday, May 29, 2021 at 12:51:23 PM UTC-4, Paul S Person
Post by Paul S Person
On Fri, 28 May 2021 14:56:20 -0700, Jibini Kula Tumbili
Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
On Friday, May 28, 2021 at 12:29:03 PM UTC-6, Jibini Kula
Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
If you want to examine the plausibility of medical tales
told by physicians, I recommend going through last 15
months of press releases by Dr. Anthony Fauci. Bonus
points if you can tally up the total number of times he's
a) reversed his recommendation, and b) publicly admitted
he deliberate lied.
Really?
Really.
According to The Washington Post and Stephen Colbert, his
batting average was much better than Donald Trump's.
Two of hte most biased propaganda sources in the world today.
The *most* accurate thing anybody has said was Trump's
statement that we would have a vaccine within a year, and we
. . . had two vaccines within a year.
Meanwhile, Fauci has seesawed between don't wear masks to
everybody wear a mask to wear two. T-cells from other
coronavirus infections provide significant protection to
having no effect at all. There's no reason to close schools
to we need $1.9 trillion to have any hope of reopening schols
ever. Lockdowns should be very short to don't you dare ever
leave your basement again. And so on and so on and so on.
And he has publicly admitted to lying about the percentage of
people who need to be vaccinated to achieve herd immunity
because, in his opinion, nobody can hope to survive without
him telling us all how to live.
Right off hand, I can't think of a single grand pronouncement
he's made that he hasn't either reversed himself on, or
turned out to be completely wrong about.
This is nonsense. Or, rather, Trump Talking Points. Which
comes to the same thing.
You're operating on the false assumption that Terry argues in
good faith. He's just an Alan Baker obsessed troll seeking
attention, and will say literally *anything* to get it.
That may have been true at one time, but I have learned from
experience.
Still, sometimes he makes points that are worth responding to.
Even if they are entirely dismissable.
Plus, you like how the hook tastes.
--
Terry Austin

Proof that Alan Baker is a liar and a fool, and even stupider than
Lynn:
https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/stats/sw-border-migration


"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.
Dorothy J Heydt
2021-05-28 18:04:18 UTC
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Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
Post by Michael F. Stemper
Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
I believe the broad-spectrum cornavirus vaccine is about to
start human trials. That will eliminate about half of all
common colds.
Alan E. Nourse looked at one possible outcome of this in "The
<http://www.isfdb.org/cgi-bin/title.cgi?45956>
Without those nasty rhinoviruses, our sense of smell could be
much better.
As he was an M.D., I consider his view on it at least plausible.
I suspect that, as with nearly all fiction, especially science
fiction, there is some real life factoid that has been exaggerated
beyond recoginition for dramatic effect.
Beacuse if it were kept realistic, there wouldn't be much of a story.
Well, yes. Or rather, it would be the same story, year after
year, with the serial numbers filed off.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/
Dorothy J Heydt
2021-05-28 18:02:51 UTC
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Post by Michael F. Stemper
Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
I believe the broad-spectrum cornavirus vaccine is about to start
human trials. That will eliminate about half of all common colds.
Alan E. Nourse looked at one possible outcome of this in "The Coffin
<http://www.isfdb.org/cgi-bin/title.cgi?45956>
Without those nasty rhinoviruses, our sense of smell could be much
better.
To our cost.
Post by Michael F. Stemper
As he was an M.D., I consider his view on it at least plausible.
I just checked out "The Coffin Cure" on ISFDB: published 1957.

I then read it on Gutenberg. It keeps talking about "the cold
virus." I must assume that in 1957 it hadn't been determined
that there are lots of rhinoviruses, each able to produce "the
common cold" signs and symptoms, and a patient catching any one
of them spends about ten days developing antibodies to that one.
Wherupon another one starts spreading.

In theory, virus labs could start working on an antiviral or an
immunization for every "the common cold" virus that pops up in
each season. But since "the common cold" generally doesn't kill
people, trying to immunize against every different virus would be
... inefficient.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/
Dorothy J Heydt
2021-05-28 20:43:49 UTC
Reply
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Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Michael F. Stemper
Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
I believe the broad-spectrum cornavirus vaccine is about to
start human trials. That will eliminate about half of all
common colds.
Alan E. Nourse looked at one possible outcome of this in "The
<http://www.isfdb.org/cgi-bin/title.cgi?45956>
Without those nasty rhinoviruses, our sense of smell could be
much better.
To our cost.
Post by Michael F. Stemper
As he was an M.D., I consider his view on it at least plausible.
I just checked out "The Coffin Cure" on ISFDB: published 1957.
I then read it on Gutenberg. It keeps talking about "the cold
virus." I must assume that in 1957 it hadn't been determined
that there are lots of rhinoviruses, each able to produce "the
common cold" signs and symptoms, and a patient catching any one
of them spends about ten days developing antibodies to that one.
Wherupon another one starts spreading.
It is not inconvievable that rhinoviruses have enough common
characteristics to be subject to broad spectrum mRNA vaccines, too.
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
In theory, virus labs could start working on an antiviral or an
immunization for every "the common cold" virus that pops up in
each season. But since "the common cold" generally doesn't kill
people, trying to immunize against every different virus would
be ... inefficient.
It's been done. I recall a news piece a *long* time ago, like the
70s, about someone developing a "vaccine against the common cold."
The price tag was $15,000 (in 70s dollars, the price of a house),
and while the marketing fluff didn't admit it, it would have only
been good for one season.
Yup.

A reason to go back to mask-wearing in cold/flu season. Although
there usually is a vaccine available in the fall for whatever
strain of flu is in fashion that year. I had one last October,
and will undoubtedly get one this fall. (Even if I have, as I
have in recent weeks, found it necessary to get down our front
steps on my glutei maximi.)
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/
Paul S Person
2021-05-29 16:55:36 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Michael F. Stemper
Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
I believe the broad-spectrum cornavirus vaccine is about to
start human trials. That will eliminate about half of all
common colds.
Alan E. Nourse looked at one possible outcome of this in "The
<http://www.isfdb.org/cgi-bin/title.cgi?45956>
Without those nasty rhinoviruses, our sense of smell could be
much better.
To our cost.
Post by Michael F. Stemper
As he was an M.D., I consider his view on it at least plausible.
I just checked out "The Coffin Cure" on ISFDB: published 1957.
I then read it on Gutenberg. It keeps talking about "the cold
virus." I must assume that in 1957 it hadn't been determined
that there are lots of rhinoviruses, each able to produce "the
common cold" signs and symptoms, and a patient catching any one
of them spends about ten days developing antibodies to that one.
Wherupon another one starts spreading.
It is not inconvievable that rhinoviruses have enough common
characteristics to be subject to broad spectrum mRNA vaccines, too.
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
In theory, virus labs could start working on an antiviral or an
immunization for every "the common cold" virus that pops up in
each season. But since "the common cold" generally doesn't kill
people, trying to immunize against every different virus would
be ... inefficient.
It's been done. I recall a news piece a *long* time ago, like the
70s, about someone developing a "vaccine against the common cold."
The price tag was $15,000 (in 70s dollars, the price of a house),
and while the marketing fluff didn't admit it, it would have only
been good for one season.
Yup.
A reason to go back to mask-wearing in cold/flu season. Although
there usually is a vaccine available in the fall for whatever
strain of flu is in fashion that year. I had one last October,
and will undoubtedly get one this fall. (Even if I have, as I
have in recent weeks, found it necessary to get down our front
steps on my glutei maximi.)
Actually, the annual flu vaccine is based on the /best guess/ as to
which varieties are likely to circulating in 9 months of so. It takes
a while to develop and produce the vaccine, you see, so considerable
lead-time is needed.

When they guess correctly, then we read: "Flu vaccine prevents 80% of
cases". When the don't, then we read: "Flu vaccine only prevents 20%
of cases, but does reduce the severity of the flu if you catch it".

This, of course, is because all those shots /must/ be sold to recoup
the cost of production and distribution, or as much of it as possible.
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."
Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)
2021-05-24 23:02:58 UTC
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I just reread "Triplanetary" by Edward E. Smith, PhD.  Now that
was real space opera.  The battles were more spectacular than in
a modern action movie.  But of course they were fought, mostly, in
outer space with all kinds of wonderful weapons.  But when they
fought on a planet they destroyed cities as a kind of a by-product.
And of course when they needed bigger and better weapons they took
a couple of weeks off and developed and deployed them almost
immediately.
Doc is of course one of the major inspirations for my Arenaverse
series. Also, Jack Williamson (Legion of Space) and James Schmitz (Agent
of Vega, Witches of Karres), along with later writers.
Martin
2021-05-25 14:45:52 UTC
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For a *real* space opera, try _The Eighty-Minute Hour_ by Brian Aldiss. To quote Google Books:

"Quite possibly Aldiss’s strangest novel, and that is saying something."
Quadibloc
2021-05-26 15:04:09 UTC
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Post by Bill Gill
That was real Space Opera.
And here I was thinking this would be about opera performed in space...

A scene in The Fifth Element comes to mind, and of course the references
to Klingon opera...

John Savard
Dorothy J Heydt
2021-05-26 16:20:36 UTC
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Post by Quadibloc
Post by Bill Gill
That was real Space Opera.
And here I was thinking this would be about opera performed in space...
A scene in The Fifth Element comes to mind, and of course the references
to Klingon opera...
And in fact, a title search for "Space Opera" on ISFDB

http://www.isfdb.org/cgi-bin/se.cgi?arg=Space+Opera&type=Fiction+Titles

found 79 matches, including a novel by that title by Vance.
Which I haven't read; has anybody?
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/
Robert Woodward
2021-05-26 16:40:58 UTC
Reply
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Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Quadibloc
Post by Bill Gill
That was real Space Opera.
And here I was thinking this would be about opera performed in space...
A scene in The Fifth Element comes to mind, and of course the references
to Klingon opera...
And in fact, a title search for "Space Opera" on ISFDB
http://www.isfdb.org/cgi-bin/se.cgi?arg=Space+Opera&type=Fiction+Titles
found 79 matches, including a novel by that title by Vance.
Which I haven't read; has anybody?
Yes. IIRC, a interstellar touring opera company was involved.
--
"We have advanced to new and surprising levels of bafflement."
Imperial Auditor Miles Vorkosigan describes progress in _Komarr_.
‹-----------------------------------------------------
Robert Woodward ***@drizzle.com
Ted Nolan <tednolan>
2021-05-26 16:50:25 UTC
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Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Quadibloc
Post by Bill Gill
That was real Space Opera.
And here I was thinking this would be about opera performed in space...
A scene in The Fifth Element comes to mind, and of course the references
to Klingon opera...
And in fact, a title search for "Space Opera" on ISFDB
http://www.isfdb.org/cgi-bin/se.cgi?arg=Space+Opera&type=Fiction+Titles
found 79 matches, including a novel by that title by Vance.
Which I haven't read; has anybody?
On the following day the theater was erected; the orchestra
ran through the score. At the time appointed a large company
of Mental Warriors marched across the plateau. Dame Isabel
met them at the entrance to the theater. The spokesman came
forward, indicated his fellows, and spoke. Darwin Litchley
translated. "We have come, in faithful accordance with our
undertaking. Once we are determined, neither persuasion,
trepidation, nor second thoughts can deter us. So now we
submit ourselves to your performance."

Dame Isabel uttered a short speech of welcome, then led
them into the theater. With quick looks to left and right,
they seated themselves in a compact group, each adopting
an identical, somewhat rigid posture: torso bolt upright,
arms pressed closely to the sides, feet planted close
together.

Sir Henry Rixon raised his baton for the overture: the
Mental Warriors as one man fixed their eyes upon him. The
curtain rose on the first act; the Mental Warriors sat as
if frozen; indeed they did not so much as twitch until the
final curtain descended and the lights came on; even then
they remained motionless, as if not certain that the
performance was over. Then slowly, uncertainly, they rose
to their feet, filed from the theater, exchanging puzzled
comments. Dame Isabel and Bernard Bickel met them outside.
The spokesman conferred with his fellows, and it seemed as
if they were somewhat resentful though the dour cast of
their features made any such judgment uncertain.

Dame Isabel approached. "Did you enjoy the performance?"

The spokesman said in his most resonant voice, "My people
are neither exercised nor taxed; is this the most vigorous
performance you are able to provide? Are the folk of Earth
so listless?"

Darwin Litchley translated; Dame Isabel was surprised at
the question. "We have dozens of operas in our repertory,
all different. We conferred at length last night and decided
that you might enjoy something light and not too rigorous
or tragic."

The Mental Warrior drew himself stiffly erect. "Do you take
us so lightly then? Is this our reputation across the
cosmos?"

"No, no, of course not," Dame Isabel told him. "By no means!"

The Mental Warrior spoke a few brusque words to his fellows,
turned back to Dame Isabel. "We will say no more of the
performance. Tomorrow we will honor you with an exhibition
by our trained company. You will attend?"

"Of course!" said Dame Isabel. "We are looking forward to
the occasion. Will you send someone to guide us to your
theater?"

"This will be done." The Mental Warriors stalked off across
the plain.

Bernard Bickel shook his head. "I fear that they weren't
too impressed."

Dame Isabel sighed. "Just possibly they might have preferred
Siegfried ... Well, we'll see. Tomorrow's performance should
be very interesting, and I must remind Roger to bring along
recording equipment."

On the day following, a few minutes after the noon meal, a
pair of Mental Warriors presented themselves at the ship.
Not everyone was ready; Ramona Thoxted and Cassandra Prouty
at the last moment decided to change from afternoon frocks
to somewhat more casual clothes. Finally all who were going
assembled outside the ship: singers, musicians, Dame Isabel,
Roger, Bernard Bickel, Sir Henry, Andrei Szinc, and a number
of the crew. Neither Captain Gondar nor Madoc Roswyn was
among the group, and Roger felt an agonized pang at the
thought of the two together. Someone else seemed to have
similar feelings: Logan de Appling, the personable young
astrogator. He strode back and forth nervously toward the
debarkation ramp, and when neither Madoc Roswyn nor Captain
Gondar appeared, he abruptly marched back aboard ship.

At last all were on hand; in a festive mood they set off
across the plateau. Forgotten were little disagreements and
jealousies; various small cliques had temporarily dissolved,
and it was a good-natured group which walked chattering and
chaffering to the local theater. Ramona Thoxted and Cassandra
Prouty congratulated themselves on their decision to wear
casual clothes; the occasion clearly was not at all formal.
Even Dame Isabel seemed caught up in the spirit of good
cheer, and made jocular references to the book Roger was
supposed to be writing.

They passed behind the city, descended a wide stone-paved
path and found themselves in a natural amphitheater. The
walls were steep and the seats were all on the floor of the
enclosure: stone cylinders arranged in concentric circles.

Dame Isabel examined the amphitheater with lively interest.
"They pay not even lip-service to luxury," she observed to
Bernard Bickel. "The seats, or pedestals, whatever you call
them, appear absolutely uncomfortable. But I suppose we
must take things as we find them."

Bernard Bickel indicated the iron trusswork overhead.
"Evidently for special effects, or perhaps lighting
arrangements."

Dame Isabel looked about. "A strange sort of theater: where
is the stage? Where do the musicians sit?"

Bernard Bickel chuckled. "In my peregrinations across the
galaxy, I've learned to be surprised at nothing, not even
theaters without stages."

"Yes, we must not be too parochial ... Well, I believe I will
sit here. Roger, you take that seat or pedestal, whatever,
and Mr. Litchley, you sit there, beside Roger, so that if
necessary you can make interpretive comments into the
recording apparatus."

The company disposed itself about the amphitheater with
jocular remarks back and forth.

The individual who had acted as spokesman for the Mental
Warriors appeared. He clanked across the stone floor of the
arena to Dame Isabel. He spoke and Darwin Litchley translated:
"You have kept your word; you have not departed the planet."

"No, naturally not," declared Dame Isabel. "Such an act
would have been highly ungenerous."

At the translation, the Mental Warrior gave a brief jerk
of his head. "You are a strange folk; but certainly one to
be respected."

"Thank you very much," said Dame Isabel, extremely pleased,
and Bernard Bickel added a smiling nod of acknowledgment.

The Mental Warrior departed the arena. Silence persisted
for two minutes, and was broken by the chime of a great
gong. This was the signal for a set of astonishing and
harrowing circumstances. Jets of flame thrust up from the
floor; iron rails fell from above to crash into the aisles
between pedestals. Six razor-edged pendulums were released
from above, to swing back and forth. A siren screamed, and
was answered by another; a great boulder toppled down, to
be caught by a chain inches above the heads of the audience.
The fire jets thrust out horizontally, then vertically, and
down from the trusses dropped chunks of red-hot iron ... After
two minutes and fourteen seconds the company was screaming,
fainting, giving way to various styles of hysteria.

Abruptly the performance was terminated. The Mental Warriors
appeared on the truss-work and to the side of the arena.
They emitted hoots, cat-calls, harsh cries of scorn. Darwin
Litchley later remembered something of their comments: "What
sort of pusillanimity is this?" And "We sat through three
hours of your worst and never flinched!" And "The folk of
Earth are weaklings indeed!"

In a disorganized straggle the group returned to the Phoebus.
Dame Isabel gave instant orders to strike the theater and
depart with the most expedition possible.

The Phoebus flew back to Earth-town, discharged Darwin
Litchley, and at once put off into space.
--
columbiaclosings.com
What's not in Columbia anymore..
Jerry Brown
2021-05-27 06:21:47 UTC
Reply
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On Wed, 26 May 2021 08:04:09 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc
Post by Quadibloc
Post by Bill Gill
That was real Space Opera.
And here I was thinking this would be about opera performed in space...
A scene in The Fifth Element comes to mind, and of course the references
to Klingon opera...
John Savard
IIRC the exotic dancer replicant in Blade Runner was an opera singer
in the original DADoES (it's been nearly 4 decades since I read it).
--
Jerry Brown

A cat may look at a king
(but probably won't bother)
pete...@gmail.com
2021-05-27 13:57:30 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Jerry Brown
On Wed, 26 May 2021 08:04:09 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc
Post by Quadibloc
Post by Bill Gill
That was real Space Opera.
And here I was thinking this would be about opera performed in space...
A scene in The Fifth Element comes to mind, and of course the references
to Klingon opera...
John Savard
IIRC the exotic dancer replicant in Blade Runner was an opera singer
in the original DADoES (it's been nearly 4 decades since I read it).
A couple more:

I had the privilege once of seeing a production of "Starstruck: A Space Opera"
It definitely counts, in all definitions of 'space opera.
https://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Starstruck_(play)

Parts of Phillip Glass's "The Voyage" are set in space. I saw this at the Met in
NYC.

Glass also adapted Doris Lessing's "The Marriages between Zones Three, Four,
and Five"

Pt
Dorothy J Heydt
2021-05-27 14:15:52 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by ***@gmail.com
Post by Jerry Brown
On Wed, 26 May 2021 08:04:09 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc
Post by Quadibloc
Post by Bill Gill
That was real Space Opera.
And here I was thinking this would be about opera performed in space...
A scene in The Fifth Element comes to mind, and of course the references
to Klingon opera...
John Savard
IIRC the exotic dancer replicant in Blade Runner was an opera singer
in the original DADoES (it's been nearly 4 decades since I read it).
I had the privilege once of seeing a production of "Starstruck: A Space Opera"
It definitely counts, in all definitions of 'space opera.
https://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Starstruck_(play)
Parts of Phillip Glass's "The Voyage" are set in space. I saw this at the Met in
NYC.
Glass also adapted Doris Lessing's "The Marriages between Zones Three, Four,
and Five"
Karl-Birger Blomdahl's _Aniara_ is available online (as discussed
on this group a while back). Black-and-white copy, low-budget
production when it comes to costumes and scenery--unless that was
the producer's intention. Spaceship headed for Mars with a group
of refugees from war-ruined Earth is sideswiped by a "now
officially recognized" asteroid and thrown off course, never to
return. Things happen and everytually they all die. Would one
say that's a typical 1960s plot?

However, the music is impressive, including a couple of pieces of
_musique concrete_.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/
Paul S Person
2021-05-27 17:20:00 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by ***@gmail.com
Post by Jerry Brown
On Wed, 26 May 2021 08:04:09 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc
Post by Quadibloc
Post by Bill Gill
That was real Space Opera.
And here I was thinking this would be about opera performed in space...
A scene in The Fifth Element comes to mind, and of course the references
to Klingon opera...
John Savard
IIRC the exotic dancer replicant in Blade Runner was an opera singer
in the original DADoES (it's been nearly 4 decades since I read it).
I had the privilege once of seeing a production of "Starstruck: A Space Opera"
It definitely counts, in all definitions of 'space opera.
https://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Starstruck_(play)
Parts of Phillip Glass's "The Voyage" are set in space. I saw this at the Met in
NYC.
Glass also adapted Doris Lessing's "The Marriages between Zones Three, Four,
and Five"
Karl-Birger Blomdahl's _Aniara_ is available online (as discussed
on this group a while back). Black-and-white copy, low-budget
production when it comes to costumes and scenery--unless that was
the producer's intention. Spaceship headed for Mars with a group
of refugees from war-ruined Earth is sideswiped by a "now
officially recognized" asteroid and thrown off course, never to
return. Things happen and everytually they all die. Would one
say that's a typical 1960s plot?
It certainly /sound/ like an operatic plot.

Does the Fat Lady sing at the end?
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
However, the music is impressive, including a couple of pieces of
_musique concrete_.
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."
Dorothy J Heydt
2021-05-27 17:35:50 UTC
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Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by ***@gmail.com
Post by Jerry Brown
On Wed, 26 May 2021 08:04:09 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc
Post by Quadibloc
Post by Bill Gill
That was real Space Opera.
And here I was thinking this would be about opera performed in space...
A scene in The Fifth Element comes to mind, and of course the references
to Klingon opera...
John Savard
IIRC the exotic dancer replicant in Blade Runner was an opera singer
in the original DADoES (it's been nearly 4 decades since I read it).
I had the privilege once of seeing a production of "Starstruck: A Space Opera"
It definitely counts, in all definitions of 'space opera.
https://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Starstruck_(play)
Parts of Phillip Glass's "The Voyage" are set in space. I saw this at
the Met in
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by ***@gmail.com
NYC.
Glass also adapted Doris Lessing's "The Marriages between Zones Three, Four,
and Five"
Karl-Birger Blomdahl's _Aniara_ is available online (as discussed
on this group a while back). Black-and-white copy, low-budget
production when it comes to costumes and scenery--unless that was
the producer's intention. Spaceship headed for Mars with a group
of refugees from war-ruined Earth is sideswiped by a "now
officially recognized" asteroid and thrown off course, never to
return. Things happen and everytually they all die. Would one
say that's a typical 1960s plot?
It certainly /sound/ like an operatic plot.
Does the Fat Lady sing at the end?
There are no fat ladies in _Aniara_; there's a magic pixie dream
girl, a female pilot (a dancer, who does not sing), and a blind
poetess who sings in praise of death. The ones who sing at the
end are the entire chorus, seated as we saw them at the
beginning, and they're all dead.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/
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