Discussion:
Biggest Unresolved Plot Points In SF?
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Ted Nolan <tednolan>
2019-12-29 18:42:31 UTC
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Another current thread remarks on a series where the author seems to have
forgotten establishing a murderer at large (and Dorothy invokes Checkov's gun).

In a "Pitch Meeting" video on "Frozen" one character expresses incredulity
that the fact Elsa can create intelligent life ex-nihlio, making her
effectively a god, goes unremarked..

Which SF stories, books or series have the biggest unresolved premises or
major plot points?
--
columbiaclosings.com
What's not in Columbia anymore..
Lynn McGuire
2019-12-29 19:33:49 UTC
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Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Another current thread remarks on a series where the author seems to have
forgotten establishing a murderer at large (and Dorothy invokes Checkov's gun).
In a "Pitch Meeting" video on "Frozen" one character expresses incredulity
that the fact Elsa can create intelligent life ex-nihlio, making her
effectively a god, goes unremarked..
Which SF stories, books or series have the biggest unresolved premises or
major plot points?
Easy. The Chtorr series by David Gerrold has three books waiting to be
finished and published to add to the four books already published.
https://www.amazon.com/Matter-Men-Against-Chtorr-Book/dp/0671451200/

Lynn
Titus G
2019-12-29 22:25:14 UTC
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Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Another current thread remarks on a series where the author seems to have
forgotten establishing a murderer at large (and Dorothy invokes Checkov's gun).
In a "Pitch Meeting" video on "Frozen" one character expresses incredulity
that the fact Elsa can create intelligent life ex-nihlio, making her
effectively a god, goes unremarked..
Which SF stories, books or series have the biggest unresolved premises or
major plot points?
For unfinished series, there are the obvious Rothfuss' Kingkiller
Chronicles and Martin's Ice and Fire.

For ridiculous resolution of an insurmountable problem, Mark Lawrence's
Holy Sister as detailed in the spoiler section of a recent post.
Lee Gleason
2019-12-29 22:58:36 UTC
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Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Which SF stories, books or series have the biggest unresolved premises or
major plot points?
Roger MacBride Allen's third book, "The Falling World", in the "Ring of
Charon" series. The second book came out in 1994 ("The Shattered Sphere").
No word since then.

--

Lee K. Gleason N5ZMR
Control-G Consultants
***@comcast.net
m***@gmail.com
2019-12-29 23:52:55 UTC
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Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Another current thread remarks on a series where the author seems to have
forgotten establishing a murderer at large (and Dorothy invokes Checkov's gun).
In a "Pitch Meeting" video on "Frozen" one character expresses incredulity
that the fact Elsa can create intelligent life ex-nihlio, making her
effectively a god, goes unremarked..
Which SF stories, books or series have the biggest unresolved premises or
major plot points?
--
columbiaclosings.com
What's not in Columbia anymore..
Rather than focusing on the multiple series that are unfinished, how about focusing on ostensibly finished series that have unresolved subplots or 'elephants in the room' that are ignored?

I think that's what Ted was requesting.
Titus G
2019-12-30 00:37:55 UTC
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On Sunday, December 29, 2019 at 10:42:34 AM UTC-8, Ted Nolan
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Another current thread remarks on a series where the author seems
to have forgotten establishing a murderer at large (and Dorothy
invokes Checkov's gun).
In a "Pitch Meeting" video on "Frozen" one character expresses
incredulity that the fact Elsa can create intelligent life
ex-nihlio, making her effectively a god, goes unremarked..
Which SF stories, books or series have the biggest unresolved
premises or major plot points? -- columbiaclosings.com What's not
in Columbia anymore..
Rather than focusing on the multiple series that are unfinished, how
about focusing on ostensibly finished series that have unresolved
subplots or 'elephants in the room' that are ignored?
I think that's what Ted was requesting.
Yes, which is why I prefaced my replies. It is about time the thread
adherence police paid attention to rasfw as I for one have been worried
about their absence.
Please report back with the results of your own focusing soon.
m***@gmail.com
2019-12-30 00:56:02 UTC
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Post by Titus G
On Sunday, December 29, 2019 at 10:42:34 AM UTC-8, Ted Nolan
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Another current thread remarks on a series where the author seems
to have forgotten establishing a murderer at large (and Dorothy
invokes Checkov's gun).
In a "Pitch Meeting" video on "Frozen" one character expresses
incredulity that the fact Elsa can create intelligent life
ex-nihlio, making her effectively a god, goes unremarked..
Which SF stories, books or series have the biggest unresolved
premises or major plot points? -- columbiaclosings.com What's not
in Columbia anymore..
Rather than focusing on the multiple series that are unfinished, how
about focusing on ostensibly finished series that have unresolved
subplots or 'elephants in the room' that are ignored?
I think that's what Ted was requesting.
Yes, which is why I prefaced my replies. It is about time the thread
adherence police paid attention to rasfw as I for one have been worried
about their absence.
Please report back with the results of your own focusing soon.
Will do! I'm not the most discerning of readers though, so plot holes often pass me by.

Did Trent the Uncatchable walk through a wall?

DKM wrote that ambiguity on purpose though, so probably doesn't count.
David DeLaney
2020-01-03 05:07:49 UTC
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Post by m***@gmail.com
Did Trent the Uncatchable walk through a wall?
DKM wrote that ambiguity on purpose though, so probably doesn't count.
A multiplicity of close readings leads me to the opinion (which is mine, like a
brontosaurus) that he did not ... but was seen to do so.

Dave, we could always ask the Name Storyteller
--
\/David DeLaney posting thru EarthLink - "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
my gatekeeper archives are no longer accessible :( / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.
D B Davis
2019-12-30 01:16:09 UTC
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Post by m***@gmail.com
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Another current thread remarks on a series where the author seems to have
forgotten establishing a murderer at large (and Dorothy invokes Checkov's gun
).
Post by m***@gmail.com
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
In a "Pitch Meeting" video on "Frozen" one character expresses incredulity
that the fact Elsa can create intelligent life ex-nihlio, making her
effectively a god, goes unremarked..
Which SF stories, books or series have the biggest unresolved premises or
major plot points?
--
columbiaclosings.com
What's not in Columbia anymore..
Rather than focusing on the multiple series that are unfinished, how about
focusing on ostensibly finished series that have unresolved subplots or
'elephants in the room' that are ignored?
I think that's what Ted was requesting.
It's hard for me to remember unresolved subplots and elephants in the
room. When you read what comes next, bear in mind that one person's
elephant may be the next person's four footed butterfly.
It takes Brother Francis fifteen years to painstakingly create a
gilded copy of a blueprint in "Fiat Homo," which is the first story of
_A Canticle for Liebowitz_ (Miller). After the gilded copy is finished,
Francis takes it with him on an overland pilgrimage for an audience with
the Pope at New Rome. Along the way a pair of "Pope's children" rob
Francis of his gilded copy. When Francis takes the same path back after
his audience the pair kills Francis and neither the pair nor the gilded
copy is heard from again.



Thank you,
--
Don.......My cat's )\._.,--....,'``.
telltale tall tail /, _.. \ _\ (`._ ,.
tells tall tales.. `._.-(,_..'--(,_..'`-.;.'
Titus G
2020-01-03 04:36:50 UTC
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On 30/12/19 2:16 pm, D B Davis wrote:snip
Post by D B Davis
It's hard for me to remember unresolved subplots and elephants in
the room. When you read what comes next, bear in mind that one
person's elephant may be the next person's four footed butterfly. It
takes Brother Francis fifteen years to painstakingly create a gilded
copy of a blueprint in "Fiat Homo," which is the first story of _A
Canticle for Liebowitz_ (Miller). After the gilded copy is finished,
Francis takes it with him on an overland pilgrimage for an audience
with the Pope at New Rome. Along the way a pair of "Pope's children"
rob Francis of his gilded copy. When Francis takes the same path back
after his audience the pair kills Francis and neither the pair nor
the gilded copy is heard from again.

Thank you,
To me, that is not an unresolved plot point. Francis has performed his
part in the tale: that the diligent futility of the worship of symbolism
by faithful cult followers has no importance in regard to worldly events
and the Pope's children have no relevance other than their two
encounters with two-footed Francis with their butterfly nets.
D B Davis
2020-01-03 15:23:54 UTC
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Post by Titus G
On 30/12/19 2:16 pm, D B Davis wrote:snip
Post by D B Davis
It's hard for me to remember unresolved subplots and elephants in
the room. When you read what comes next, bear in mind that one
person's elephant may be the next person's four footed butterfly.
It takes Brother Francis fifteen years to painstakingly create a gilded
copy of a blueprint in "Fiat Homo," which is the first story of _A
Canticle for Liebowitz_ (Miller). After the gilded copy is finished,
Francis takes it with him on an overland pilgrimage for an audience
with the Pope at New Rome. Along the way a pair of "Pope's children"
rob Francis of his gilded copy. When Francis takes the same path back
after his audience the pair kills Francis and neither the pair nor
the gilded copy is heard from again.
To me, that is not an unresolved plot point. Francis has performed his
part in the tale: that the diligent futility of the worship of symbolism
by faithful cult followers has no importance in regard to worldly events
and the Pope's children have no relevance other than their two
encounters with two-footed Francis with their butterfly nets.
The appearance of a four-footed butterfly mindset moves me to disclose
that the state insect of Montana's a hexapod, which walks on only four
legs in the manner of a praying mantis.



Thank you,
--
Don.......My cat's )\._.,--....,'``.
telltale tall tail /, _.. \ _\ (`._ ,.
tells tall tales.. `._.-(,_..'--(,_..'`-.;.'
David DeLaney
2020-01-04 01:44:20 UTC
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Post by D B Davis
The appearance of a four-footed butterfly mindset moves me to disclose
that the state insect of Montana's a hexapod, which walks on only four
legs in the manner of a praying mantis.
???
Clearly a key insight!

Dave, round and round the ghost signals go
--
\/David DeLaney posting thru EarthLink - "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
my gatekeeper archives are no longer accessible :( / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.
Ted Nolan <tednolan>
2019-12-30 05:25:55 UTC
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Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Another current thread remarks on a series where the author seems to have
forgotten establishing a murderer at large (and Dorothy invokes
Checkov's gun).
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
In a "Pitch Meeting" video on "Frozen" one character expresses incredulity
that the fact Elsa can create intelligent life ex-nihlio, making her
effectively a god, goes unremarked..
Which SF stories, books or series have the biggest unresolved premises or
major plot points?
--
columbiaclosings.com
What's not in Columbia anymore..
Rather than focusing on the multiple series that are unfinished, how
about focusing on ostensibly finished series that have unresolved
subplots or 'elephants in the room' that are ignored?
I think that's what Ted was requesting.
Yes. Obviously an unfinished series will have lots of unresolution.
--
columbiaclosings.com
What's not in Columbia anymore..
Lynn McGuire
2019-12-30 19:15:46 UTC
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Post by m***@gmail.com
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Another current thread remarks on a series where the author seems to have
forgotten establishing a murderer at large (and Dorothy invokes Checkov's gun).
In a "Pitch Meeting" video on "Frozen" one character expresses incredulity
that the fact Elsa can create intelligent life ex-nihlio, making her
effectively a god, goes unremarked..
Which SF stories, books or series have the biggest unresolved premises or
major plot points?
--
columbiaclosings.com
What's not in Columbia anymore..
Rather than focusing on the multiple series that are unfinished, how about focusing on ostensibly finished series that have unresolved subplots or 'elephants in the room' that are ignored?
I think that's what Ted was requesting.
David Gerrold had the audacity to publish several chapters (2, 3, 5, 6,
8, 11) of the fifth Chtorr book on the intertubes in 2003. The book is
still unpublished here in 2019. If that is not unfinished then I do not
know what is.

https://fuzzyblog.io/blog/story.radio.weblogs.com/2003/06/23/welcome-back-david-gerrold-and-chapters-from-a-method-for-madness.html

Lynn
Carl Fink
2019-12-30 19:43:43 UTC
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Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by m***@gmail.com
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Another current thread remarks on a series where the author seems to have
forgotten establishing a murderer at large (and Dorothy invokes Checkov's gun).
In a "Pitch Meeting" video on "Frozen" one character expresses incredulity
that the fact Elsa can create intelligent life ex-nihlio, making her
effectively a god, goes unremarked..
Which SF stories, books or series have the biggest unresolved premises or
major plot points?
--
columbiaclosings.com
What's not in Columbia anymore..
Rather than focusing on the multiple series that are unfinished, how about focusing on ostensibly finished series that have unresolved subplots or 'elephants in the room' that are ignored?
I think that's what Ted was requesting.
David Gerrold had the audacity to publish several chapters (2, 3, 5, 6,
8, 11) of the fifth Chtorr book on the intertubes in 2003. The book is
still unpublished here in 2019. If that is not unfinished then I do not
know what is.
Of course it's unfinished. It's just that that has little to do with the
original thread topic, which was unresolved plot points IN COMPLETED
STORIES.
--
Carl Fink ***@finknetwork.com
https://reasonablyliterate.com https://nitpicking.com
If you want to make a point, somebody will take the point and stab you with it.
-Kenne Estes
Lynn McGuire
2019-12-31 19:13:34 UTC
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Post by Carl Fink
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by m***@gmail.com
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Another current thread remarks on a series where the author seems to have
forgotten establishing a murderer at large (and Dorothy invokes Checkov's gun).
In a "Pitch Meeting" video on "Frozen" one character expresses incredulity
that the fact Elsa can create intelligent life ex-nihlio, making her
effectively a god, goes unremarked..
Which SF stories, books or series have the biggest unresolved premises or
major plot points?
--
columbiaclosings.com
What's not in Columbia anymore..
Rather than focusing on the multiple series that are unfinished, how about focusing on ostensibly finished series that have unresolved subplots or 'elephants in the room' that are ignored?
I think that's what Ted was requesting.
David Gerrold had the audacity to publish several chapters (2, 3, 5, 6,
8, 11) of the fifth Chtorr book on the intertubes in 2003. The book is
still unpublished here in 2019. If that is not unfinished then I do not
know what is.
Of course it's unfinished. It's just that that has little to do with the
original thread topic, which was unresolved plot points IN COMPLETED
STORIES.
Well, if you want to go that route, who brought the Chtorrans to Earth ?
We know that their goal is to convert the Earth to look and be like
their supposed planet, Chtorr. But, who is doing this ?

Lynn
Lee Gleason
2019-12-31 19:19:51 UTC
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if you want to go that route, who brought the Chtorrans to Earth ? We know
that their goal is to convert the Earth to look and be like their supposed
planet, Chtorr. But, who is doing this ?
In one of the first couple of books, it mentions that strange time travel
experiments were being conducted before the Chtorrans arrived. I figure that
those opened a link to (earth's future|another planet|alternate dimensions)
and brought through the Chtorrans.

--
Lee K. Gleason N5ZMR
Control-G Consultants
***@comcast.net
Lynn McGuire
2019-12-31 19:26:18 UTC
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Post by Lynn McGuire
Well, if you want to go that route, who brought the Chtorrans to Earth
? We know that their goal is to convert the Earth to look and be like
their supposed planet, Chtorr.  But, who is doing this ?
 In one of the first couple of books,  it mentions that strange time
travel experiments were being conducted before the Chtorrans arrived. I
figure that those opened a link to (earth's future|another
planet|alternate dimensions) and brought through the Chtorrans.
--
Lee K. Gleason N5ZMR
Control-G Consultants
I do not remember those at all. I will need to reread the series for
the fifth ??? time in 2020 or so.

Lynn
David Johnston
2019-12-30 01:20:46 UTC
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Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Another current thread remarks on a series where the author seems to have
forgotten establishing a murderer at large (and Dorothy invokes Checkov's gun).
In a "Pitch Meeting" video on "Frozen" one character expresses incredulity
that the fact Elsa can create intelligent life ex-nihlio, making her
effectively a god, goes unremarked..
Which SF stories, books or series have the biggest unresolved premises or
major plot points?
The Weapon Too Terrible to Use. After they destroy the Venusian weapon
there's nothing holding the humans to their side of the treaty.

Empire of Bones. Why the hell didn't they investigate the murder of the
diplomat? I'm sure at some point in the series when they are on their
way back home the murder will be explain but on a real naval vessel if
something like that happened they'd be searching everyone's room and
questioning everyone for alibis.
Ted Nolan <tednolan>
2019-12-30 05:29:14 UTC
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Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Another current thread remarks on a series where the author seems to have
forgotten establishing a murderer at large (and Dorothy invokes
Checkov's gun).
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
In a "Pitch Meeting" video on "Frozen" one character expresses incredulity
that the fact Elsa can create intelligent life ex-nihlio, making her
effectively a god, goes unremarked..
Which SF stories, books or series have the biggest unresolved premises or
major plot points?
The Weapon Too Terrible to Use. After they destroy the Venusian weapon
there's nothing holding the humans to their side of the treaty.
IIRC, Asimov himself remarked on this in his intro the story in
_The Early Asimov_. (He agreed with you).
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Empire of Bones. Why the hell didn't they investigate the murder of the
diplomat? I'm sure at some point in the series when they are on their
way back home the murder will be explain but on a real naval vessel if
something like that happened they'd be searching everyone's room and
questioning everyone for alibis.
That's the thread that sparked my query.
--
columbiaclosings.com
What's not in Columbia anymore..
David Johnston
2019-12-30 08:39:20 UTC
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Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Another current thread remarks on a series where the author seems to have
forgotten establishing a murderer at large (and Dorothy invokes
Checkov's gun).
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
In a "Pitch Meeting" video on "Frozen" one character expresses incredulity
that the fact Elsa can create intelligent life ex-nihlio, making her
effectively a god, goes unremarked..
Which SF stories, books or series have the biggest unresolved premises or
major plot points?
The Weapon Too Terrible to Use. After they destroy the Venusian weapon
there's nothing holding the humans to their side of the treaty.
IIRC, Asimov himself remarked on this in his intro the story in
_The Early Asimov_. (He agreed with you).
Of course we had the benefit of seeing how nuclear weapons worked out to
see how "weapons too terrible to use" actually get applied.
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Empire of Bones. Why the hell didn't they investigate the murder of the
diplomat? I'm sure at some point in the series when they are on their
way back home the murder will be explain but on a real naval vessel if
something like that happened they'd be searching everyone's room and
questioning everyone for alibis.
That's the thread that sparked my query.
Oh, right. Of course. Silly me.

Right now I'm thinking of the Venus Equilateral story where they invent
a matter duplicator and are stupid enough to confuse destroying an
object in one place and creating a copy at another with actual movement
until a lawyer points out what they actually did. And I said, "They've
invented a perfect counterfeiting tool and the government does NOT
immediately descend on them and lock it down? They just let
civilization collapse?"
-dsr-
2019-12-30 15:14:42 UTC
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Post by David Johnston
Oh, right. Of course. Silly me.
Right now I'm thinking of the Venus Equilateral story where they invent
a matter duplicator and are stupid enough to confuse destroying an
object in one place and creating a copy at another with actual movement
until a lawyer points out what they actually did. And I said, "They've
invented a perfect counterfeiting tool and the government does NOT
immediately descend on them and lock it down? They just let
civilization collapse?"
That's a universe in which anyone who isn't an engineer or supervised by one
is carrying the stupid ball.

-dsr-
David DeLaney
2020-01-03 05:11:58 UTC
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Post by David Johnston
Right now I'm thinking of the Venus Equilateral story where they invent
a matter duplicator and are stupid enough to confuse destroying an
object in one place and creating a copy at another with actual movement
until a lawyer points out what they actually did. And I said, "They've
invented a perfect counterfeiting tool and the government does NOT
immediately descend on them and lock it down? They just let
civilization collapse?"
That wasn't the last VE story; the engineers realized this about that quickly,
and promptly invented a substance that could not be matter-duplicated, to be
used in currency from then on, restoring economics to a partial science instead
of a fantasy.

Dave, note that, in particular, living objects could not be duplicated alive,
so there were other barter-like possibilities available
--
\/David DeLaney posting thru EarthLink - "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
my gatekeeper archives are no longer accessible :( / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.
BCFD36
2019-12-30 08:56:01 UTC
Reply
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Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Another current thread remarks on a series where the author seems to have
forgotten establishing a murderer at large (and Dorothy invokes Checkov's gun).
In a "Pitch Meeting" video on "Frozen" one character expresses incredulity
that the fact Elsa can create intelligent life ex-nihlio, making her
effectively a god, goes unremarked..
Which SF stories, books or series have the biggest unresolved premises or
major plot points?
Much of Cordwainer Smith's stuff has large chunks missing.
--
Dave Scruggs
Captain, Boulder Creek Fire (Retired)
Sr. Software Engineer - Stellar Solutions
Jaimie Vandenbergh
2019-12-30 13:26:43 UTC
Reply
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Post by BCFD36
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Another current thread remarks on a series where the author seems to have
forgotten establishing a murderer at large (and Dorothy invokes Checkov's gun).
In a "Pitch Meeting" video on "Frozen" one character expresses incredulity
that the fact Elsa can create intelligent life ex-nihlio, making her
effectively a god, goes unremarked..
Which SF stories, books or series have the biggest unresolved premises or
major plot points?
Much of Cordwainer Smith's stuff has large chunks missing.
It's hard to tell the difference between "plot point card lost under the rug" and "intentionally leaving the worldbuilding open" for some authors. Smith writes in the mythic style so I don't feel them as missing, rather as space for other stories and other storytellers.

On the other side, I'm awful at spotting plot holes/remembering the gun over the mantelpiece that was never used, so my judgment on this is suspect. Unless it's absolutely egregious I'm just along for the ride while reading a book, not in critic mode.

Cheers - Jaimie
--
"Don't drag me down to your level, meat." -- Red Robot #C-63
o***@gmail.com
2019-12-30 20:07:25 UTC
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Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Another current thread remarks on a series where the author seems to have
forgotten establishing a murderer at large (and Dorothy invokes Checkov's gun).
In a "Pitch Meeting" video on "Frozen" one character expresses incredulity
that the fact Elsa can create intelligent life ex-nihlio, making her
effectively a god, goes unremarked..
Which SF stories, books or series have the biggest unresolved premises or
major plot points?
--
columbiaclosings.com
What's not in Columbia anymore..
Who / what put up the monolith ?
David Johnston
2019-12-30 20:54:06 UTC
Reply
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Post by o***@gmail.com
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Another current thread remarks on a series where the author seems to have
forgotten establishing a murderer at large (and Dorothy invokes Checkov's gun).
In a "Pitch Meeting" video on "Frozen" one character expresses incredulity
that the fact Elsa can create intelligent life ex-nihlio, making her
effectively a god, goes unremarked..
Which SF stories, books or series have the biggest unresolved premises or
major plot points?
--
columbiaclosings.com
What's not in Columbia anymore..
Who / what put up the monolith ?
Ancient aliens who had ascended to godhood along the path the surviving
astronaut followed.
o***@gmail.com
2019-12-31 20:07:01 UTC
Reply
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Post by David Johnston
Post by o***@gmail.com
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Another current thread remarks on a series where the author seems to have
forgotten establishing a murderer at large (and Dorothy invokes Checkov's gun).
In a "Pitch Meeting" video on "Frozen" one character expresses incredulity
that the fact Elsa can create intelligent life ex-nihlio, making her
effectively a god, goes unremarked..
Which SF stories, books or series have the biggest unresolved premises or
major plot points?
--
columbiaclosings.com
What's not in Columbia anymore..
Who / what put up the monolith ?
Ancient aliens who had ascended to godhood along the path the surviving
astronaut followed.
....uh....somewhat obvious.

But.....DEEEETAILS
Dimensional Traveler
2019-12-31 23:25:31 UTC
Reply
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Post by o***@gmail.com
Post by David Johnston
Post by o***@gmail.com
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Another current thread remarks on a series where the author seems to have
forgotten establishing a murderer at large (and Dorothy invokes Checkov's gun).
In a "Pitch Meeting" video on "Frozen" one character expresses incredulity
that the fact Elsa can create intelligent life ex-nihlio, making her
effectively a god, goes unremarked..
Which SF stories, books or series have the biggest unresolved premises or
major plot points?
--
columbiaclosings.com
What's not in Columbia anymore..
Who / what put up the monolith ?
Ancient aliens who had ascended to godhood along the path the surviving
astronaut followed.
....uh....somewhat obvious.
But.....DEEEETAILS
The details are beyond current human ability to understand.
--
"You need to believe in things that aren't true. How else can they become?"
Ted Nolan <tednolan>
2020-01-01 04:36:56 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Post by o***@gmail.com
Post by David Johnston
On Sunday, December 29, 2019 at 12:42:34 PM UTC-6, Ted Nolan
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Another current thread remarks on a series where the author seems to have
forgotten establishing a murderer at large (and Dorothy invokes
Checkov's gun).
Post by o***@gmail.com
Post by David Johnston
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
In a "Pitch Meeting" video on "Frozen" one character expresses incredulity
that the fact Elsa can create intelligent life ex-nihlio, making her
effectively a god, goes unremarked..
Which SF stories, books or series have the biggest unresolved premises or
major plot points?
--
columbiaclosings.com
What's not in Columbia anymore..
Who / what put up the monolith ?
Ancient aliens who had ascended to godhood along the path the surviving
astronaut followed.
....uh....somewhat obvious.
But.....DEEEETAILS
The details are beyond current human ability to understand.
"The details are unimportant!"
--
columbiaclosings.com
What's not in Columbia anymore..
David DeLaney
2020-01-03 05:13:52 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Post by Dimensional Traveler
Post by o***@gmail.com
Post by David Johnston
Post by o***@gmail.com
Who / what put up the monolith ?
Ancient aliens who had ascended to godhood along the path the surviving
astronaut followed.
....uh....somewhat obvious.
But.....DEEEETAILS
The details are beyond current human ability to understand.
"The details are unimportant!"
"There is as yet insufficient data for a meaningful answer."

Dave, patience grasshopper, we have not yet put together all possible story
tropes in all possible combinations
--
\/David DeLaney posting thru EarthLink - "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
my gatekeeper archives are no longer accessible :( / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.
David Johnston
2020-01-01 02:26:04 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by o***@gmail.com
Post by David Johnston
Post by o***@gmail.com
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Another current thread remarks on a series where the author seems to have
forgotten establishing a murderer at large (and Dorothy invokes Checkov's gun).
In a "Pitch Meeting" video on "Frozen" one character expresses incredulity
that the fact Elsa can create intelligent life ex-nihlio, making her
effectively a god, goes unremarked..
Which SF stories, books or series have the biggest unresolved premises or
major plot points?
--
columbiaclosings.com
What's not in Columbia anymore..
Who / what put up the monolith ?
Ancient aliens who had ascended to godhood along the path the surviving
astronaut followed.
....uh....somewhat obvious.
But.....DEEEETAILS
It's perfectly reasonable that humanity will never find out those
details and therefore neither will the reader.
Robert Carnegie
2020-01-01 02:55:17 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by o***@gmail.com
Post by David Johnston
Post by o***@gmail.com
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Another current thread remarks on a series where the author seems to have
forgotten establishing a murderer at large (and Dorothy invokes Checkov's gun).
In a "Pitch Meeting" video on "Frozen" one character expresses incredulity
that the fact Elsa can create intelligent life ex-nihlio, making her
effectively a god, goes unremarked..
Which SF stories, books or series have the biggest unresolved premises or
major plot points?
--
columbiaclosings.com
What's not in Columbia anymore..
Who / what put up the monolith ?
Ancient aliens who had ascended to godhood along the path the surviving
astronaut followed.
....uh....somewhat obvious.
But.....DEEEETAILS
Is this _2001_? The monolith is an alien probe
device used to encourage and then study developing
intelligent species.

By _3001_, noting that episodes in the series
aren't quite in agreement with each other,
the probes communicate at the speed of light
and it's presumed that this is the year that
the alien command to sterilise the solar system
after seeing us, gets here. (You might send
the signal five minutes into the bit with
the ape-people.)
Paul S Person
2020-01-01 17:50:59 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by o***@gmail.com
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Another current thread remarks on a series where the author seems to have
forgotten establishing a murderer at large (and Dorothy invokes Checkov's gun).
In a "Pitch Meeting" video on "Frozen" one character expresses incredulity
that the fact Elsa can create intelligent life ex-nihlio, making her
effectively a god, goes unremarked..
Which SF stories, books or series have the biggest unresolved premises or
major plot points?
--
columbiaclosings.com
What's not in Columbia anymore..
Who / what put up the monolith ?
AC Clarke who, having become an Atheist, and despairing of the ability
of biological evolution to produce Man, fell back on Space Aliens.

Oh, you meant story-internal. Never mind.
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."
David Johnston
2020-01-01 18:30:55 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Paul S Person
Post by o***@gmail.com
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Another current thread remarks on a series where the author seems to have
forgotten establishing a murderer at large (and Dorothy invokes Checkov's gun).
In a "Pitch Meeting" video on "Frozen" one character expresses incredulity
that the fact Elsa can create intelligent life ex-nihlio, making her
effectively a god, goes unremarked..
Which SF stories, books or series have the biggest unresolved premises or
major plot points?
--
columbiaclosings.com
What's not in Columbia anymore..
Who / what put up the monolith ?
AC Clarke who, having become an Atheist, and despairing of the ability
of biological evolution to produce Man, fell back on Space Aliens.
...you do know it was a work of fiction right? That he didn't actually
believe humanity was produced by aliens?
Paul S Person
2020-01-02 17:45:32 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Wed, 1 Jan 2020 11:30:55 -0700, David Johnston
Post by David Johnston
Post by Paul S Person
Post by o***@gmail.com
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Another current thread remarks on a series where the author seems to have
forgotten establishing a murderer at large (and Dorothy invokes Checkov's gun).
In a "Pitch Meeting" video on "Frozen" one character expresses incredulity
that the fact Elsa can create intelligent life ex-nihlio, making her
effectively a god, goes unremarked..
Which SF stories, books or series have the biggest unresolved premises or
major plot points?
--
columbiaclosings.com
What's not in Columbia anymore..
Who / what put up the monolith ?
AC Clarke who, having become an Atheist, and despairing of the ability
of biological evolution to produce Man, fell back on Space Aliens.
...you do know it was a work of fiction right? That he didn't actually
believe humanity was produced by aliens?
Actually, I have a memory of him /saying exactly that/ (well, OK, what
I wrote is a paraphrase, but the idea is the same).

The problem is, I don't remember /where/. It's not on the relevant
DVDs. It's not in the relevant books. That leaves a magazine article.

Or my imagination, of course.

Still, this seems to be fairly common: the explanation given, at the
time they were invented, of "memes" was that the inventor did not
believe biological evolution could produce human culture, and had
long-since given up on God. So he created what turned into a verbal
form of the Universal Solvent.

The term "meme" still exists, of course, but does the theory? I don't
think so, but, again, I could be wrong.
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."
Carl Fink
2020-01-03 15:26:24 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Paul S Person
Still, this seems to be fairly common: the explanation given, at the
time they were invented, of "memes" was that the inventor did not
believe biological evolution could produce human culture, and had
long-since given up on God. So he created what turned into a verbal
form of the Universal Solvent.
Have you read Dawkins' book on the subject? Because this is not what he wrote.
--
Carl Fink ***@finknetwork.com
https://reasonablyliterate.com https://nitpicking.com
If you want to make a point, somebody will take the point and stab you with it.
-Kenne Estes
Paul S Person
2020-01-03 17:56:20 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Carl Fink
Post by Paul S Person
Still, this seems to be fairly common: the explanation given, at the
time they were invented, of "memes" was that the inventor did not
believe biological evolution could produce human culture, and had
long-since given up on God. So he created what turned into a verbal
form of the Universal Solvent.
Have you read Dawkins' book on the subject? Because this is not what he wrote.
No.

But this is the conclusion of a bunch of people on Usenet: that it
makes /everything/ you think, say, or write a meme (including both
your statement and this one), which may or may not be true, who can
tell? Any statement affirming or denying the truth of a meme, after
all, is just another meme. In the end, you are left with yourself
alone, the statement that an outside world/other people exist being
just a meme -- and then the statement that /you/ exist is realized to
be a meme, and you disappear. Because you, and I, are only memes.

Hence, a verbal form of the Universal Solvent (which, if it existed,
would dissolve anything and everything).

Are there any academic chairs in Meme Theory? Have there been any
advances reported? Are classes being taught? Or has it died by the
wayside (except for its use in collections of similarly-themed tweets,
of course)?

BTW, one of Dawkins' other efforts caused /Christianity Today/
actually /quoted/ the NYT review. Favorably. This might be considered
a miracle, since /CT/ doesn't generally think much of the NYT.

Of course, the /review/ wasn't favorable to the /book/, which it
characterized as something like "low-grade sophomoric Usenet atheist
drivel" -- not, IOW, an academically-compelling argument.
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."
Carl Fink
2020-01-03 20:25:39 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Paul S Person
But this is the conclusion of a bunch of people on Usenet: that it
makes /everything/ you think, say, or write a meme (including both
your statement and this one), which may or may not be true, who can
tell? Any statement affirming or denying the truth of a meme, after
all, is just another meme. In the end, you are left with yourself
alone, the statement that an outside world/other people exist being
just a meme -- and then the statement that /you/ exist is realized to
be a meme, and you disappear. Because you, and I, are only memes.
I have critizized memetics myself for what I think is the same reason: that
Dawkins failed to define the entities he was writing about clearly enough to
make discussion useful.

That doesn't mean he thought he was filling a gap in the neo-Darwinian
synthesis.
--
Carl Fink ***@finknetwork.com
https://reasonablyliterate.com https://nitpicking.com
If you want to make a point, somebody will take the point and stab you with it.
-Kenne Estes
Paul S Person
2020-01-04 18:11:38 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Carl Fink
Post by Paul S Person
But this is the conclusion of a bunch of people on Usenet: that it
makes /everything/ you think, say, or write a meme (including both
your statement and this one), which may or may not be true, who can
tell? Any statement affirming or denying the truth of a meme, after
all, is just another meme. In the end, you are left with yourself
alone, the statement that an outside world/other people exist being
just a meme -- and then the statement that /you/ exist is realized to
be a meme, and you disappear. Because you, and I, are only memes.
I have critizized memetics myself for what I think is the same reason: that
Dawkins failed to define the entities he was writing about clearly enough to
make discussion useful.
That doesn't mean he thought he was filling a gap in the neo-Darwinian
synthesis.
It occurred to me last night that I may also have read one or more
articles on it in /Skeptical Inquirer/. That would be the /old/ /SI/,
before it descended into anti-religious propaganda and changed its
name. I haven't checked for a while, but I believe it changed its name
back after a few years.

Perhaps that's where I picked up the "fact" (if it is a fact) that
Dawkins created meme theory because he didn't think biological
evolution moved fast enough to explain human culture.

It may even be where I got the idea (if I may dignify it with that
name) that the goal was to show that religion was "just a meme" --
IOW, that it was part of his anti-religious propaganda effort.
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."
p***@hotmail.com
2020-01-06 02:25:08 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Paul S Person
Post by Carl Fink
Post by Paul S Person
But this is the conclusion of a bunch of people on Usenet: that it
makes /everything/ you think, say, or write a meme (including both
your statement and this one), which may or may not be true, who can
tell? Any statement affirming or denying the truth of a meme, after
all, is just another meme. In the end, you are left with yourself
alone, the statement that an outside world/other people exist being
just a meme -- and then the statement that /you/ exist is realized to
be a meme, and you disappear. Because you, and I, are only memes.
I have critizized memetics myself for what I think is the same reason: that
Dawkins failed to define the entities he was writing about clearly enough to
make discussion useful.
That doesn't mean he thought he was filling a gap in the neo-Darwinian
synthesis.
It occurred to me last night that I may also have read one or more
articles on it in /Skeptical Inquirer/. That would be the /old/ /SI/,
before it descended into anti-religious propaganda and changed its
name. I haven't checked for a while, but I believe it changed its name
back after a few years.
Perhaps that's where I picked up the "fact" (if it is a fact) that
Dawkins created meme theory because he didn't think biological
evolution moved fast enough to explain human culture.
Interesting; he seems to be implying that there is a learned aspect of
human culture. This could be tested by taking infants from one culture
and raising them in a different one. Expensive, and it would have to be
cleared by a board of ethicists, but it could be worth it.

Peter Wezeman
anti-social Darwinist
Kevrob
2020-01-06 14:29:07 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by p***@hotmail.com
Post by Paul S Person
Post by Carl Fink
Post by Paul S Person
But this is the conclusion of a bunch of people on Usenet: that it
makes /everything/ you think, say, or write a meme (including both
your statement and this one), which may or may not be true, who can
tell? Any statement affirming or denying the truth of a meme, after
all, is just another meme. In the end, you are left with yourself
alone, the statement that an outside world/other people exist being
just a meme -- and then the statement that /you/ exist is realized to
be a meme, and you disappear. Because you, and I, are only memes.
I have critizized memetics myself for what I think is the same reason: that
Dawkins failed to define the entities he was writing about clearly enough to
make discussion useful.
That doesn't mean he thought he was filling a gap in the neo-Darwinian
synthesis.
It occurred to me last night that I may also have read one or more
articles on it in /Skeptical Inquirer/. That would be the /old/ /SI/,
before it descended into anti-religious propaganda and changed its
name. I haven't checked for a while, but I believe it changed its name
back after a few years.
Perhaps that's where I picked up the "fact" (if it is a fact) that
Dawkins created meme theory because he didn't think biological
evolution moved fast enough to explain human culture.
Interesting; he seems to be implying that there is a learned aspect of
human culture. This could be tested by taking infants from one culture
and raising them in a different one. Expensive, and it would have to be
cleared by a board of ethicists, but it could be worth it.
Children of immigrants often adopt the culture of the wider
community, but reject that of their parents' home countries,
in whole or in part. Often they live in a hybrid culture,
and reflect both to some degree.

Kevin R
Dorothy J Heydt
2020-01-06 15:42:07 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by David Johnston
Post by p***@hotmail.com
Post by Paul S Person
Post by Carl Fink
Post by Paul S Person
But this is the conclusion of a bunch of people on Usenet: that it
makes /everything/ you think, say, or write a meme (including both
your statement and this one), which may or may not be true, who can
tell? Any statement affirming or denying the truth of a meme, after
all, is just another meme. In the end, you are left with yourself
alone, the statement that an outside world/other people exist being
just a meme -- and then the statement that /you/ exist is realized to
be a meme, and you disappear. Because you, and I, are only memes.
I have critizized memetics myself for what I think is the same reason: that
Dawkins failed to define the entities he was writing about clearly
enough to
Post by p***@hotmail.com
Post by Paul S Person
Post by Carl Fink
make discussion useful.
That doesn't mean he thought he was filling a gap in the neo-Darwinian
synthesis.
It occurred to me last night that I may also have read one or more
articles on it in /Skeptical Inquirer/. That would be the /old/ /SI/,
before it descended into anti-religious propaganda and changed its
name. I haven't checked for a while, but I believe it changed its name
back after a few years.
Perhaps that's where I picked up the "fact" (if it is a fact) that
Dawkins created meme theory because he didn't think biological
evolution moved fast enough to explain human culture.
Interesting; he seems to be implying that there is a learned aspect of
human culture. This could be tested by taking infants from one culture
and raising them in a different one. Expensive, and it would have to be
cleared by a board of ethicists, but it could be worth it.
Children of immigrants often adopt the culture of the wider
community, but reject that of their parents' home countries,
in whole or in part. Often they live in a hybrid culture,
and reflect both to some degree.
I read a number of agony aunts, who frequently receive letters
from the offspring of immigrants who are at odds with their
parents over some issue; frequently it's wanting to marry someone
of a different culture, religion, etc.; or something else that
would *never* have been done in the old country.

In which case, the agony aunt has been known to retort, "If the
old country was so great, why aren't you still there?" And the
answer is sometimes that life in the old country had become
unbearable, and those who left it were hoping to re-create the
*real* culture of the old country in the new land. And their
children, born in the new country, sometimes try to maintain
aspects of the old culture: the cookery, the language, the folk
songs... and sometimes they don't.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/
Paul S Person
2020-01-06 17:55:49 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by David Johnston
Post by p***@hotmail.com
Post by Paul S Person
Post by Carl Fink
Post by Paul S Person
But this is the conclusion of a bunch of people on Usenet: that it
makes /everything/ you think, say, or write a meme (including both
your statement and this one), which may or may not be true, who can
tell? Any statement affirming or denying the truth of a meme, after
all, is just another meme. In the end, you are left with yourself
alone, the statement that an outside world/other people exist being
just a meme -- and then the statement that /you/ exist is realized to
be a meme, and you disappear. Because you, and I, are only memes.
I have critizized memetics myself for what I think is the same reason: that
Dawkins failed to define the entities he was writing about clearly
enough to
Post by p***@hotmail.com
Post by Paul S Person
Post by Carl Fink
make discussion useful.
That doesn't mean he thought he was filling a gap in the neo-Darwinian
synthesis.
It occurred to me last night that I may also have read one or more
articles on it in /Skeptical Inquirer/. That would be the /old/ /SI/,
before it descended into anti-religious propaganda and changed its
name. I haven't checked for a while, but I believe it changed its name
back after a few years.
Perhaps that's where I picked up the "fact" (if it is a fact) that
Dawkins created meme theory because he didn't think biological
evolution moved fast enough to explain human culture.
Interesting; he seems to be implying that there is a learned aspect of
human culture. This could be tested by taking infants from one culture
and raising them in a different one. Expensive, and it would have to be
cleared by a board of ethicists, but it could be worth it.
Children of immigrants often adopt the culture of the wider
community, but reject that of their parents' home countries,
in whole or in part. Often they live in a hybrid culture,
and reflect both to some degree.
I read a number of agony aunts, who frequently receive letters
from the offspring of immigrants who are at odds with their
parents over some issue; frequently it's wanting to marry someone
of a different culture, religion, etc.; or something else that
would *never* have been done in the old country.
There was a case in Britain a few years back where Pakistani
immigrants were convicted of murdering one of their daughters for
refusing to marry her back-in-Pakistan cousin and give up her love of
the non-Pakistani culture.

Sometimes an "agony aunt" just isn't enough to meet the situation!
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
In which case, the agony aunt has been known to retort, "If the
old country was so great, why aren't you still there?" And the
answer is sometimes that life in the old country had become
unbearable, and those who left it were hoping to re-create the
*real* culture of the old country in the new land. And their
children, born in the new country, sometimes try to maintain
aspects of the old culture: the cookery, the language, the folk
songs... and sometimes they don't.
Their grandchildren, however, have been known to learn the old
language and resurrect at least parts of the old culture, particularly
food and dances done in colorful costumes (which may or may not have
been the normal dress of their grandparents when they were growing
up).
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."
Dorothy J Heydt
2020-01-06 20:22:20 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Carl Fink
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by David Johnston
Post by p***@hotmail.com
Post by Paul S Person
Post by Carl Fink
Post by Paul S Person
But this is the conclusion of a bunch of people on Usenet: that it
makes /everything/ you think, say, or write a meme (including both
your statement and this one), which may or may not be true, who can
tell? Any statement affirming or denying the truth of a meme, after
all, is just another meme. In the end, you are left with yourself
alone, the statement that an outside world/other people exist being
just a meme -- and then the statement that /you/ exist is realized to
be a meme, and you disappear. Because you, and I, are only memes.
I have critizized memetics myself for what I think is the same
reason: that
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by David Johnston
Post by p***@hotmail.com
Post by Paul S Person
Post by Carl Fink
Dawkins failed to define the entities he was writing about clearly
enough to
Post by p***@hotmail.com
Post by Paul S Person
Post by Carl Fink
make discussion useful.
That doesn't mean he thought he was filling a gap in the neo-Darwinian
synthesis.
It occurred to me last night that I may also have read one or more
articles on it in /Skeptical Inquirer/. That would be the /old/ /SI/,
before it descended into anti-religious propaganda and changed its
name. I haven't checked for a while, but I believe it changed its name
back after a few years.
Perhaps that's where I picked up the "fact" (if it is a fact) that
Dawkins created meme theory because he didn't think biological
evolution moved fast enough to explain human culture.
Interesting; he seems to be implying that there is a learned aspect of
human culture. This could be tested by taking infants from one culture
and raising them in a different one. Expensive, and it would have to be
cleared by a board of ethicists, but it could be worth it.
Children of immigrants often adopt the culture of the wider
community, but reject that of their parents' home countries,
in whole or in part. Often they live in a hybrid culture,
and reflect both to some degree.
I read a number of agony aunts, who frequently receive letters
from the offspring of immigrants who are at odds with their
parents over some issue; frequently it's wanting to marry someone
of a different culture, religion, etc.; or something else that
would *never* have been done in the old country.
There was a case in Britain a few years back where Pakistani
immigrants were convicted of murdering one of their daughters for
refusing to marry her back-in-Pakistan cousin and give up her love of
the non-Pakistani culture.
Sometimes an "agony aunt" just isn't enough to meet the situation!
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
In which case, the agony aunt has been known to retort, "If the
old country was so great, why aren't you still there?" And the
answer is sometimes that life in the old country had become
unbearable, and those who left it were hoping to re-create the
*real* culture of the old country in the new land. And their
children, born in the new country, sometimes try to maintain
aspects of the old culture: the cookery, the language, the folk
songs... and sometimes they don't.
Their grandchildren, however, have been known to learn the old
language and resurrect at least parts of the old culture, particularly
food and dances done in colorful costumes (which may or may not have
been the normal dress of their grandparents when they were growing
up).
Oh, yes. But because they want to, not because their parents
insist they must.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/
Kevrob
2020-01-06 18:07:32 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Kevrob
Children of immigrants often adopt the culture of the wider
community, but reject that of their parents' home countries,
in whole or in part. Often they live in a hybrid culture,
and reflect both to some degree.
I read a number of agony aunts, who frequently receive letters
from the offspring of immigrants who are at odds with their
parents over some issue; frequently it's wanting to marry someone
of a different culture, religion, etc.; or something else that
would *never* have been done in the old country.
In which case, the agony aunt has been known to retort, "If the
old country was so great, why aren't you still there?" And the
answer is sometimes that life in the old country had become
unbearable, and those who left it were hoping to re-create the
*real* culture of the old country in the new land. And their
children, born in the new country, sometimes try to maintain
aspects of the old culture: the cookery, the language, the folk
songs... and sometimes they don't.
...and the next generation sometimes "reclaims" what
was set aside in order to Americanize. Irving Wallace's
son, David, the second generation born in the US, decided
to change the family surname back to "Wallechinsky."
see any cover of "The Book of Lists."

I'm "second generation," son of a man who was only technically a
"narrowback." My mother's family has been in the country longer.
One of my grandmother's collateral ancestors was killed fighting
in the USA's Civil War "Irish Brigade." We listened to Irish music.
My mother had taken Irish dance as a child, and made grand soda bread.
Among the 9 of us, we have everyone from sisters trying to learn Irish
and doing the family genealogy to a brother who goes by his middle name,
because his extremely Irish forename (he's named after a martyr of the
1798 rebellion) was a little too heavy for him, growing up. Several
of the sibs have visited Ireland, though I've yet to do so.

I really should have made the trip to the Dublin 2019 Worldcon,
and then toured the country a bit. Turns out I need the funds
I might have spent for other purposes this year, so my not going
mitigates some of life's exigencies.

Kevin R
Paul S Person
2020-01-07 18:02:44 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Kevrob
...and the next generation sometimes "reclaims" what
was set aside in order to Americanize. Irving Wallace's
son, David, the second generation born in the US, decided
to change the family surname back to "Wallechinsky."
see any cover of "The Book of Lists."
I'm "second generation," son of a man who was only technically a
"narrowback." My mother's family has been in the country longer.
One of my grandmother's collateral ancestors was killed fighting
in the USA's Civil War "Irish Brigade." We listened to Irish music.
My mother had taken Irish dance as a child, and made grand soda bread.
Among the 9 of us, we have everyone from sisters trying to learn Irish
and doing the family genealogy to a brother who goes by his middle name,
because his extremely Irish forename (he's named after a martyr of the
1798 rebellion) was a little too heavy for him, growing up. Several
of the sibs have visited Ireland, though I've yet to do so.
I really should have made the trip to the Dublin 2019 Worldcon,
and then toured the country a bit. Turns out I need the funds
I might have spent for other purposes this year, so my not going
mitigates some of life's exigencies.
After the fall of the Wall, my uncle (my mother's brother) made a trip
to the former East Germany and met and spoke with (presumably through
a translator) some of our 5th and 6th cousins -- descended from those
who did /not/ migrate to America in the 1840s or so.
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."
Carl Fink
2020-01-08 14:22:22 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
In which case, the agony aunt has been known to retort, "If the
old country was so great, why aren't you still there?" And the
answer is sometimes that life in the old country had become
unbearable, and those who left it were hoping to re-create the
*real* culture of the old country in the new land. And their
children, born in the new country, sometimes try to maintain
aspects of the old culture: the cookery, the language, the folk
songs... and sometimes they don't.
You mean like the "Pilgrims" who founded the New World colony of
Massachusetts? The ones who fled England because of religious intolerance,
then fled the Netherlands because of their *tolerance*, meaning the
Pilgrims' children were becoming assimilated?

They hoped that in their isolated new home in the wilderness there would be
less temptation for their flock to stray.
--
Carl Fink ***@finknetwork.com
https://reasonablyliterate.com https://nitpicking.com
If you want to make a point, somebody will take the point and stab you with it.
-Kenne Estes
Paul S Person
2020-01-08 17:28:15 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Carl Fink
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
In which case, the agony aunt has been known to retort, "If the
old country was so great, why aren't you still there?" And the
answer is sometimes that life in the old country had become
unbearable, and those who left it were hoping to re-create the
*real* culture of the old country in the new land. And their
children, born in the new country, sometimes try to maintain
aspects of the old culture: the cookery, the language, the folk
songs... and sometimes they don't.
You mean like the "Pilgrims" who founded the New World colony of
Massachusetts? The ones who fled England because of religious intolerance,
then fled the Netherlands because of their *tolerance*, meaning the
Pilgrims' children were becoming assimilated?
They hoped that in their isolated new home in the wilderness there would be
less temptation for their flock to stray.
Well, yes, to some extent.

But they were also seeking religious freedom in it's older sense --
the freedom to have /your/ religion be the only one allowed by the
State.

And, way back in the 8th grade or so, we were taught that, having made
Church membership a precondition for any form of preferment, they ran
into a small problem: the spawn of the rich and powerful were, more
often than not, /not/ joining the Church.

Of course, not being able to be succeeded in your wealth and power by
your son is unacceptable, so a new category of membership was created
for those who did not actually believe, but were willing to attend
services and behave politely.

So I guess the assimilation problem turned out to be ... something
else.

And what is called "ummiya" in some quarters turned out to promote the
very hypocrisy being preached against in the 50s and 60s.
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."
Dorothy J Heydt
2020-01-08 20:46:40 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Paul S Person
Post by Carl Fink
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
In which case, the agony aunt has been known to retort, "If the
old country was so great, why aren't you still there?" And the
answer is sometimes that life in the old country had become
unbearable, and those who left it were hoping to re-create the
*real* culture of the old country in the new land. And their
children, born in the new country, sometimes try to maintain
aspects of the old culture: the cookery, the language, the folk
songs... and sometimes they don't.
You mean like the "Pilgrims" who founded the New World colony of
Massachusetts? The ones who fled England because of religious intolerance,
then fled the Netherlands because of their *tolerance*, meaning the
Pilgrims' children were becoming assimilated?
They hoped that in their isolated new home in the wilderness there would be
less temptation for their flock to stray.
Well, yes, to some extent.
But they were also seeking religious freedom in it's older sense --
the freedom to have /your/ religion be the only one allowed by the
State.
And, way back in the 8th grade or so, we were taught that, having made
Church membership a precondition for any form of preferment, they ran
into a small problem: the spawn of the rich and powerful were, more
often than not, /not/ joining the Church.
Of course, not being able to be succeeded in your wealth and power by
your son is unacceptable, so a new category of membership was created
for those who did not actually believe, but were willing to attend
services and behave politely.
So I guess the assimilation problem turned out to be ... something
else.
And what is called "ummiya" in some quarters turned out to promote the
very hypocrisy being preached against in the 50s and 60s.
Well, I just googled "ummiya," never having encountered the word
before, and found it only on various baby-name sites and a link
to the Ummayad dynasty of the late first millennium.

So what is the meaning of "ummiya" in those quarters to which you
referred?
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/
Carl Fink
2020-01-08 21:43:25 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Paul S Person
And what is called "ummiya" in some quarters turned out to promote the
very hypocrisy being preached against in the 50s and 60s.
Well, I just googled "ummiya," never having encountered the word
before, and found it only on various baby-name sites and a link
to the Ummayad dynasty of the late first millennium.
So what is the meaning of "ummiya" in those quarters to which you
referred?
I interpreted it as a typo for umma, the Muslim word for "the community"
(roughly).
--
Carl Fink ***@finknetwork.com
https://reasonablyliterate.com https://nitpicking.com
If you want to make a point, somebody will take the point and stab you with it.
-Kenne Estes
Paul S Person
2020-01-09 23:12:03 UTC
Reply
Permalink
<snippo>
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Paul S Person
And what is called "ummiya" in some quarters turned out to promote the
very hypocrisy being preached against in the 50s and 60s.
Well, I just googled "ummiya," never having encountered the word
before, and found it only on various baby-name sites and a link
to the Ummayad dynasty of the late first millennium.
So what is the meaning of "ummiya" in those quarters to which you
referred?
Sorry about that, apparently I misremembered it.

"Umma" or "Ummah" appears to be the correct spelling.

My understanding is that it denotes a unity of Islam and the State.

With Islam on top.

When sufficiently decayed, you get a court system that rules as the
local religious leader wishes. Among other things.

But perhaps I am still confused.
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."
J. Clarke
2020-01-10 00:59:25 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Thu, 09 Jan 2020 15:12:03 -0800, Paul S Person
Post by Paul S Person
<snippo>
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Paul S Person
And what is called "ummiya" in some quarters turned out to promote the
very hypocrisy being preached against in the 50s and 60s.
Well, I just googled "ummiya," never having encountered the word
before, and found it only on various baby-name sites and a link
to the Ummayad dynasty of the late first millennium.
So what is the meaning of "ummiya" in those quarters to which you
referred?
Sorry about that, apparently I misremembered it.
"Umma" or "Ummah" appears to be the correct spelling.
My understanding is that it denotes a unity of Islam and the State.
With Islam on top.
When sufficiently decayed, you get a court system that rules as the
local religious leader wishes. Among other things.
But perhaps I am still confused.
Wikipedia has quite a lot to say about it, to be taken with the
appropriate quantity of salt.

<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ummah>

Dorothy J Heydt
2020-01-08 20:41:57 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Carl Fink
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
In which case, the agony aunt has been known to retort, "If the
old country was so great, why aren't you still there?" And the
answer is sometimes that life in the old country had become
unbearable, and those who left it were hoping to re-create the
*real* culture of the old country in the new land. And their
children, born in the new country, sometimes try to maintain
aspects of the old culture: the cookery, the language, the folk
songs... and sometimes they don't.
You mean like the "Pilgrims" who founded the New World colony of
Massachusetts? The ones who fled England because of religious intolerance,
then fled the Netherlands because of their *tolerance*, meaning the
Pilgrims' children were becoming assimilated?
Yup, those are the ones.
Post by Carl Fink
They hoped that in their isolated new home in the wilderness there would be
less temptation for their flock to stray.
However...

In 1636, so not quite a generation since 1620, Massachusetts
kicked out Roger Williams for heresy, and he went and founded
Rhode Island.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/
Robert Woodward
2020-01-09 05:42:27 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Carl Fink
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
In which case, the agony aunt has been known to retort, "If the
old country was so great, why aren't you still there?" And the
answer is sometimes that life in the old country had become
unbearable, and those who left it were hoping to re-create the
*real* culture of the old country in the new land. And their
children, born in the new country, sometimes try to maintain
aspects of the old culture: the cookery, the language, the folk
songs... and sometimes they don't.
You mean like the "Pilgrims" who founded the New World colony of
Massachusetts? The ones who fled England because of religious intolerance,
then fled the Netherlands because of their *tolerance*, meaning the
Pilgrims' children were becoming assimilated?
Yup, those are the ones.
Post by Carl Fink
They hoped that in their isolated new home in the wilderness there would be
less temptation for their flock to stray.
However...
In 1636, so not quite a generation since 1620, Massachusetts
kicked out Roger Williams for heresy, and he went and founded
Rhode Island.
I get really irritated with people who confuse the Pilgrims (who sailed
across the Atlantic on the "Mayflower" in 1620) and the Puritans, who
founded the Massachusetts Bay colony in 1630. It was the Massachusetts
Bay colony who expelled him.
--
"We have advanced to new and surprising levels of bafflement."
Imperial Auditor Miles Vorkosigan describes progress in _Komarr_.
‹-----------------------------------------------------
Robert Woodward ***@drizzle.com
Dorothy J Heydt
2020-01-09 06:35:04 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Robert Woodward
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Carl Fink
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
In which case, the agony aunt has been known to retort, "If the
old country was so great, why aren't you still there?" And the
answer is sometimes that life in the old country had become
unbearable, and those who left it were hoping to re-create the
*real* culture of the old country in the new land. And their
children, born in the new country, sometimes try to maintain
aspects of the old culture: the cookery, the language, the folk
songs... and sometimes they don't.
You mean like the "Pilgrims" who founded the New World colony of
Massachusetts? The ones who fled England because of religious intolerance,
then fled the Netherlands because of their *tolerance*, meaning the
Pilgrims' children were becoming assimilated?
Yup, those are the ones.
Post by Carl Fink
They hoped that in their isolated new home in the wilderness there would be
less temptation for their flock to stray.
However...
In 1636, so not quite a generation since 1620, Massachusetts
kicked out Roger Williams for heresy, and he went and founded
Rhode Island.
I get really irritated with people who confuse the Pilgrims (who sailed
across the Atlantic on the "Mayflower" in 1620) and the Puritans, who
founded the Massachusetts Bay colony in 1630. It was the Massachusetts
Bay colony who expelled him.
I sit corrected. In that case, it was way less than a
generation.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/
Peter Trei
2020-01-09 03:11:46 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Carl Fink
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
In which case, the agony aunt has been known to retort, "If the
old country was so great, why aren't you still there?" And the
answer is sometimes that life in the old country had become
unbearable, and those who left it were hoping to re-create the
*real* culture of the old country in the new land. And their
children, born in the new country, sometimes try to maintain
aspects of the old culture: the cookery, the language, the folk
songs... and sometimes they don't.
You mean like the "Pilgrims" who founded the New World colony of
Massachusetts? The ones who fled England because of religious intolerance,
then fled the Netherlands because of their *tolerance*, meaning the
Pilgrims' children were becoming assimilated?
They hoped that in their isolated new home in the wilderness there would be
less temptation for their flock to stray.
...and yet

"What happens in Merrymount stays in Merrymount"

pt
Robert Carnegie
2020-01-04 00:51:04 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Paul S Person
Post by Carl Fink
Post by Paul S Person
Still, this seems to be fairly common: the explanation given, at the
time they were invented, of "memes" was that the inventor did not
believe biological evolution could produce human culture, and had
long-since given up on God. So he created what turned into a verbal
form of the Universal Solvent.
Have you read Dawkins' book on the subject? Because this is not what he wrote.
No.
But this is the conclusion of a bunch of people on Usenet: that it
makes /everything/ you think, say, or write a meme (including both
your statement and this one), which may or may not be true, who can
tell? Any statement affirming or denying the truth of a meme, after
all, is just another meme. In the end, you are left with yourself
alone, the statement that an outside world/other people exist being
just a meme -- and then the statement that /you/ exist is realized to
be a meme, and you disappear. Because you, and I, are only memes.
Excuse me! A "meme" is a graphic image of text,
usually placed on a picture which may be silently
animated. You might be only that but I'm not.

<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_meme#/media/File:Wikipedia_meme_vector_version.svg>

"Not what I meant", R. Dawkins (paraphrased).
Paul S Person
2020-01-04 18:19:24 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Fri, 3 Jan 2020 16:51:04 -0800 (PST), Robert Carnegie
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by Paul S Person
Post by Carl Fink
Post by Paul S Person
Still, this seems to be fairly common: the explanation given, at the
time they were invented, of "memes" was that the inventor did not
believe biological evolution could produce human culture, and had
long-since given up on God. So he created what turned into a verbal
form of the Universal Solvent.
Have you read Dawkins' book on the subject? Because this is not what he wrote.
No.
But this is the conclusion of a bunch of people on Usenet: that it
makes /everything/ you think, say, or write a meme (including both
your statement and this one), which may or may not be true, who can
tell? Any statement affirming or denying the truth of a meme, after
all, is just another meme. In the end, you are left with yourself
alone, the statement that an outside world/other people exist being
just a meme -- and then the statement that /you/ exist is realized to
be a meme, and you disappear. Because you, and I, are only memes.
Excuse me! A "meme" is a graphic image of text,
usually placed on a picture which may be silently
animated. You might be only that but I'm not.
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_meme#/media/File:Wikipedia_meme_vector_version.svg>
"Not what I meant", R. Dawkins (paraphrased).
Given "Dawkins meme", Google provides:

Meme, unit of cultural information spread by imitation. The term meme
(from the Greek mimema, meaning “imitated”) was introduced in 1976 by
British evolutionary biologist Richard Dawkins in his work The Selfish
Gene.

I must say, however, that 1976 seems to be a bit ... early.

As to your link, you have found an "Internet meme". These still exist;
every so often a news story is accompanied by a gallery of "memes",
which are (usually) tweets on a common theme. This is a different
thing from Dawkins' idea, as I think of it.

https://www.britannica.com/topic/meme appears to give a balanced
overview. Of course, one person's "balance" is another person's
"extreme bias", so YMMV.
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."
Dorothy J Heydt
2020-01-05 21:35:19 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Carl Fink
Post by Paul S Person
Post by Carl Fink
Post by Paul S Person
Still, this seems to be fairly common: the explanation given, at the
time they were invented, of "memes" was that the inventor did not
believe biological evolution could produce human culture, and had
long-since given up on God. So he created what turned into a verbal
form of the Universal Solvent.
Have you read Dawkins' book on the subject? Because this is not what
he wrote.
Post by Paul S Person
No.
But this is the conclusion of a bunch of people on Usenet: that it
makes /everything/ you think, say, or write a meme (including both
your statement and this one), which may or may not be true, who can
tell? Any statement affirming or denying the truth of a meme, after
all, is just another meme. In the end, you are left with yourself
alone, the statement that an outside world/other people exist being
just a meme -- and then the statement that /you/ exist is realized to
be a meme, and you disappear. Because you, and I, are only memes.
Excuse me! A "meme" is a graphic image of text,
usually placed on a picture which may be silently
animated. You might be only that but I'm not.
Particularly if it depicts a cat.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/
Jack Bohn
2020-01-01 20:07:25 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Sunday, December 29, 2019 at 12:42:34 PM UTC-6, Ted Nolan <tednolan> wrote: 
Which SF stories, books or series have the biggest unresolved premises or 
major plot points? 
Who / what put up the monolith ? 
Hey, come to think of it, who/what sent the Rama ship, and why/whither?

Alas, although there might be more of them, one reason for doing it in threes might include sending them along different paths, so Eathlings are not likely to see another.
--
-Jack
Bice
2020-01-02 00:19:39 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Wed, 1 Jan 2020 12:07:25 -0800 (PST), Jack Bohn
On Sunday, December 29, 2019 at 12:42:34 PM UTC-6, Ted Nolan <tednolan> wr=
ote:=C2=A0
Which SF stories, books or series have the biggest unresolved premises o=
r=C2=A0
major plot points?=C2=A0
Who / what put up the monolith ?=C2=A0
Hey, come to think of it, who/what sent the Rama ship, and why/whither?
Yeah, you'd think someone would have written a sequel or two to
explain that, but no one did.

Nope, no one ever did.

-- Bob
James Nicoll
2020-01-02 02:59:01 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Watching Paddington, I am struck by the facts that nobody seems all
that surprised by a talking bear, and that Mr. Brown's immediate
reaction to seeing Paddington in Paddinton is that the bear must
be selling something. Are speaking animals a known phenomenon in
this setting?
--
My reviews can be found at http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/
My tor pieces at https://www.tor.com/author/james-davis-nicoll/
My Dreamwidth at https://james-davis-nicoll.dreamwidth.org/
My patreon is at https://www.patreon.com/jamesdnicoll
BCFD36
2020-01-02 17:58:35 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by James Nicoll
Watching Paddington, I am struck by the facts that nobody seems all
that surprised by a talking bear, and that Mr. Brown's immediate
reaction to seeing Paddington in Paddinton is that the bear must
be selling something. Are speaking animals a known phenomenon in
this setting?
We bought a Paddington Bear in Paddington Station. Typical tourists.
--
Dave Scruggs
Captain, Boulder Creek Fire (Retired)
Sr. Software Engineer - Stellar Solutions
Lynn McGuire
2020-01-02 18:19:28 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by BCFD36
Post by James Nicoll
Watching Paddington, I am struck by the facts that nobody seems all
that surprised by a talking bear, and that Mr. Brown's immediate
reaction to seeing Paddington in Paddinton is that the bear must
be selling something. Are speaking animals a known phenomenon in
this setting?
We bought a Paddington Bear in Paddington Station. Typical tourists.
Probably Made in China.

Lynn
BCFD36
2020-01-02 20:18:59 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by BCFD36
Post by James Nicoll
Watching Paddington, I am struck by the facts that nobody seems all
that surprised by a talking bear, and that Mr. Brown's immediate
reaction to seeing Paddington in Paddinton is that the bear must
be selling something. Are speaking animals a known phenomenon in
this setting?
We bought a Paddington Bear in Paddington Station. Typical tourists.
Probably Made in China.
Lynn
Called my daughter and had her check... Vietnam.
--
Dave Scruggs
Captain, Boulder Creek Fire (Retired)
Sr. Software Engineer - Stellar Solutions
Lynn McGuire
2020-01-02 21:35:46 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by BCFD36
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by BCFD36
Post by James Nicoll
Watching Paddington, I am struck by the facts that nobody seems all
that surprised by a talking bear, and that Mr. Brown's immediate
reaction to seeing Paddington in Paddinton is that the bear must
be selling something. Are speaking animals a known phenomenon in
this setting?
We bought a Paddington Bear in Paddington Station. Typical tourists.
Probably Made in China.
Lynn
Called my daughter and had her check... Vietnam.
Ah, I almost said Vietnam !

Yes, China is now getting squeezed by even lower cost producers.

Lynn
Dimensional Traveler
2020-01-02 23:15:11 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by BCFD36
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by BCFD36
Post by James Nicoll
Watching Paddington, I am struck by the facts that nobody seems all
that surprised by a talking bear, and that Mr. Brown's immediate
reaction to seeing Paddington in Paddinton is that the bear must
be selling something. Are speaking animals a known phenomenon in
this setting?
We bought a Paddington Bear in Paddington Station. Typical tourists.
Probably Made in China.
Called my daughter and had her check... Vietnam.
Ah, I almost said Vietnam !
Yes, China is now getting squeezed by even lower cost producers.
We outsource to China, who outsources to their hated enemy Vietnam, who
will soon be outsourcing to ... Nairobi?
--
"You need to believe in things that aren't true. How else can they become?"
Wolffan
2020-01-02 23:28:09 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Dimensional Traveler
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by BCFD36
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by BCFD36
Post by James Nicoll
Watching Paddington, I am struck by the facts that nobody seems all
that surprised by a talking bear, and that Mr. Brown's immediate
reaction to seeing Paddington in Paddinton is that the bear must
be selling something. Are speaking animals a known phenomenon in
this setting?
We bought a Paddington Bear in Paddington Station. Typical tourists.
Probably Made in China.
Called my daughter and had her check... Vietnam.
Ah, I almost said Vietnam !
Yes, China is now getting squeezed by even lower cost producers.
We outsource to China, who outsources to their hated enemy Vietnam, who
will soon be outsourcing to ... Nairobi?
India. China’s other hated enemy.
Dimensional Traveler
2020-01-03 02:07:18 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Wolffan
Post by Dimensional Traveler
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by BCFD36
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by BCFD36
Post by James Nicoll
Watching Paddington, I am struck by the facts that nobody seems all
that surprised by a talking bear, and that Mr. Brown's immediate
reaction to seeing Paddington in Paddinton is that the bear must
be selling something. Are speaking animals a known phenomenon in
this setting?
We bought a Paddington Bear in Paddington Station. Typical tourists.
Probably Made in China.
Called my daughter and had her check... Vietnam.
Ah, I almost said Vietnam !
Yes, China is now getting squeezed by even lower cost producers.
We outsource to China, who outsources to their hated enemy Vietnam, who
will soon be outsourcing to ... Nairobi?
India. China’s other hated enemy.
No, not India. India priced itself out of outsourcing a couple decades
ago. Everything went to China _from_ India. (Even when it was India,
it was more outsource personnel, like programming, than manufacture.)
--
"You need to believe in things that aren't true. How else can they become?"
h***@gmail.com
2020-01-03 03:02:53 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Dimensional Traveler
Post by Wolffan
Post by Dimensional Traveler
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by BCFD36
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by BCFD36
Post by James Nicoll
Watching Paddington, I am struck by the facts that nobody seems all
that surprised by a talking bear, and that Mr. Brown's immediate
reaction to seeing Paddington in Paddinton is that the bear must
be selling something. Are speaking animals a known phenomenon in
this setting?
We bought a Paddington Bear in Paddington Station. Typical tourists.
Probably Made in China.
Called my daughter and had her check... Vietnam.
Ah, I almost said Vietnam !
Yes, China is now getting squeezed by even lower cost producers.
We outsource to China, who outsources to their hated enemy Vietnam, who
will soon be outsourcing to ... Nairobi?
India. China’s other hated enemy.
No, not India. India priced itself out of outsourcing a couple decades
ago. Everything went to China _from_ India. (Even when it was India,
it was more outsource personnel, like programming, than manufacture.)
India does a lot of programming and support lines now.
Dimensional Traveler
2020-01-03 06:15:42 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by h***@gmail.com
Post by Dimensional Traveler
Post by Wolffan
Post by Dimensional Traveler
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by BCFD36
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by BCFD36
Post by James Nicoll
Watching Paddington, I am struck by the facts that nobody seems all
that surprised by a talking bear, and that Mr. Brown's immediate
reaction to seeing Paddington in Paddinton is that the bear must
be selling something. Are speaking animals a known phenomenon in
this setting?
We bought a Paddington Bear in Paddington Station. Typical tourists.
Probably Made in China.
Called my daughter and had her check... Vietnam.
Ah, I almost said Vietnam !
Yes, China is now getting squeezed by even lower cost producers.
We outsource to China, who outsources to their hated enemy Vietnam, who
will soon be outsourcing to ... Nairobi?
India. China’s other hated enemy.
No, not India. India priced itself out of outsourcing a couple decades
ago. Everything went to China _from_ India. (Even when it was India,
it was more outsource personnel, like programming, than manufacture.)
India does a lot of programming and support lines now.
Not as much as they used to. A lot of it moved to, wait for it, ...
Vietnam.

On a tangent to that, my last job was outsource legal clerical support.
I worked for an American subsidiary of the largest of the Indian
Business Practice Outsource (BPO) companies. They created the
subsidiary because Congress made it illegal to outsource any work
outside the US that involves PII (Personal Identification Information)
or financial information. It shut down a couple months ago, couldn't
get any clients.
--
"You need to believe in things that aren't true. How else can they become?"
David DeLaney
2020-01-03 05:16:35 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Dimensional Traveler
India. China???s other hated enemy.
No, not India. India priced itself out of outsourcing a couple decades
ago. Everything went to China _from_ India. (Even when it was India,
it was more outsource personnel, like programming, than manufacture.)
... so why DID Bodhidharma go from India into China, so long ago?

Dave, the eternal questions

ps: thank you for the straight line by the way, that one does not occur at ALL
often
--
\/David DeLaney posting thru EarthLink - "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
my gatekeeper archives are no longer accessible :( / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.
Kevrob
2020-01-03 04:26:58 UTC
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Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by BCFD36
Post by James Nicoll
Watching Paddington, I am struck by the facts that nobody seems all
that surprised by a talking bear, and that Mr. Brown's immediate
reaction to seeing Paddington in Paddinton is that the bear must
be selling something. Are speaking animals a known phenomenon in
this setting?
We bought a Paddington Bear in Paddington Station. Typical tourists.
Probably Made in China.
Not "Darkest Peru?"

There's one species left in Peru.

https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/extinction-countdown/the-real-paddington-bear-cute-unique-and-endangered/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spectacled_bear

Kevin R
Scott Lurndal
2020-01-02 15:42:05 UTC
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Post by Bice
On Wed, 1 Jan 2020 12:07:25 -0800 (PST), Jack Bohn
On Sunday, December 29, 2019 at 12:42:34 PM UTC-6, Ted Nolan <tednolan> wr=
ote:=C2=A0
Which SF stories, books or series have the biggest unresolved premises o=
r=C2=A0
major plot points?=C2=A0
Who / what put up the monolith ?=C2=A0
Hey, come to think of it, who/what sent the Rama ship, and why/whither?
Yeah, you'd think someone would have written a sequel or two to
explain that, but no one did.
I'm sure I must have read them once; I recently re-read Rendezvous with Rama
and found it a well written, taut story with little cruft.

Starting the second one, I quickly ran into terrestrial politics and idiot
reporters and decided it wasn't worth continuing to read.
BCFD36
2019-12-31 08:45:11 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Another current thread remarks on a series where the author seems to have
forgotten establishing a murderer at large (and Dorothy invokes Checkov's gun).
In a "Pitch Meeting" video on "Frozen" one character expresses incredulity
that the fact Elsa can create intelligent life ex-nihlio, making her
effectively a god, goes unremarked..
Which SF stories, books or series have the biggest unresolved premises or
major plot points?
If you are watching "The Dublin Murders" stop reading now.
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Not SF or Fantasy, but annoying as hell. In the show "The Dublin
Murders", and apparently the novels that the show is is based on, what
happened to kids in the woods in 1985 never cleared up.
--
Dave Scruggs
Captain, Boulder Creek Fire (Retired)
Sr. Software Engineer - Stellar Solutions
Mike M
2020-01-01 14:25:54 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Another current thread remarks on a series where the author seems to have
forgotten establishing a murderer at large (and Dorothy invokes Checkov's gun).
In a "Pitch Meeting" video on "Frozen" one character expresses incredulity
that the fact Elsa can create intelligent life ex-nihlio, making her
effectively a god, goes unremarked..
Which SF stories, books or series have the biggest unresolved premises or
major plot points?
What was the threat so massive that the Children of the Lens needed to
elevate more people to 3rd Level lensmanship?

As a teenager first reading these books, and by now familiar with Smith’s
big, BIGGER, no EVEN BIGGER approach to pulp, I was massively disappointed
when the “final” volume walked away from the big picture to tell a story
about some accidentally-dangerous sentient energy beings.

Smith was very careful not to state that the Eddorians has been destroyed -
“removed from this plane of existence” in a multiverse with several known
planes is not definitive.

I wanted the next “ultimate” confrontation. He left me hanging.
--
This space intentionally left blank
David DeLaney
2020-01-03 05:19:20 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Mike M
What was the threat so massive that the Children of the Lens needed to
elevate more people to 3rd Level lensmanship?
As a teenager first reading these books, and by now familiar with Smith???s
big, BIGGER, no EVEN BIGGER approach to pulp, I was massively disappointed
when the ???final??? volume walked away from the big picture to tell a story
about some accidentally-dangerous sentient energy beings.
Smith was very careful not to state that the Eddorians has been destroyed -
???removed from this plane of existence??? in a multiverse with several known
planes is not definitive.
I wanted the next ???ultimate??? confrontation. He left me hanging.
Unfortunately, due to another heavily-implied plot point in CotL, the sequel
could not be written/published at the time, and possibly not ever. Unless maybe
Piers Anthony were enlisted...

Dave, think a moment: who would the children of the Children be?
--
\/David DeLaney posting thru EarthLink - "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
my gatekeeper archives are no longer accessible :( / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.
Dorothy J Heydt
2020-01-03 07:01:49 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by David DeLaney
Post by Mike M
What was the threat so massive that the Children of the Lens needed to
elevate more people to 3rd Level lensmanship?
As a teenager first reading these books, and by now familiar with Smith???s
big, BIGGER, no EVEN BIGGER approach to pulp, I was massively disappointed
when the ???final??? volume walked away from the big picture to tell a story
about some accidentally-dangerous sentient energy beings.
Smith was very careful not to state that the Eddorians has been destroyed -
???removed from this plane of existence??? in a multiverse with several known
planes is not definitive.
I wanted the next ???ultimate??? confrontation. He left me hanging.
Unfortunately, due to another heavily-implied plot point in CotL, the sequel
could not be written/published at the time, and possibly not ever. Unless maybe
Piers Anthony were enlisted...
Dave, think a moment: who would the children of the Children be?
Rather inbred.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/
David DeLaney
2020-01-03 08:32:41 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by David DeLaney
Dave, think a moment: who would the children of the Children be?
Rather inbred.
Not so. Recall what examination of Clarissa's and Kinnison's Lenses taught
Christopher...

Dave, and who else could ever really understand him?
--
\/David DeLaney posting thru EarthLink - "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
my gatekeeper archives are no longer accessible :( / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.
Gary R. Schmidt
2020-01-03 10:53:07 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by David DeLaney
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by David DeLaney
Dave, think a moment: who would the children of the Children be?
Rather inbred.
Not so. Recall what examination of Clarissa's and Kinnison's Lenses taught
Christopher...
Let's not forget that Mentor tells them (or is it Kim??) that in time
they will find love etcetera...

If I knew where my copy of CotL was at the moment, I'd have a look, it's
in the last few pages, IIRC.

Cheers,
Gary B-)
--
Waiting for a new signature to suggest itself...
Mike M
2020-01-03 12:13:01 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Gary R. Schmidt
Post by David DeLaney
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by David DeLaney
Dave, think a moment: who would the children of the Children be?
Rather inbred.
Not so. Recall what examination of Clarissa's and Kinnison's Lenses taught
Christopher...
Let's not forget that Mentor tells them (or is it Kim??) that in time
they will find love etcetera...
If I knew where my copy of CotL was at the moment, I'd have a look, it's
in the last few pages, IIRC.
Cheers,
Gary B-)
There are lots of second cousins and near misses (wasn’t “Storm” Cloud one
of them?) where genetic manipulation would enhance the desired
characteristics, not to mention possible offspring of the other Second
Stage Lensmen and the partners the Arisians prevented them from meeting ...
no need for the Children to Heinlein themselves into a dynasty ...
--
This space intentionally left blank
t***@gmail.com
2020-01-02 15:09:30 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Another current thread remarks on a series where the author seems to have
forgotten establishing a murderer at large (and Dorothy invokes Checkov's gun).
In a "Pitch Meeting" video on "Frozen" one character expresses incredulity
that the fact Elsa can create intelligent life ex-nihlio, making her
effectively a god, goes unremarked..
Which SF stories, books or series have the biggest unresolved premises or
major plot points?
Clearly the all-time leader here is The Noodle Incident from Calvin & Hobbes. :)
- Tony, who prefers it to stay unresolved/unrevealed
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