Discussion:
Dilbert: Anythey
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Lynn McGuire
2021-06-01 18:19:26 UTC
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Dilbert: Anythey
https://dilbert.com/strip/2021-06-01

Oh yeah, we be changing the English language real good now.

Lynn
Kevrob
2021-06-01 21:09:11 UTC
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Post by Lynn McGuire
Dilbert: Anythey
https://dilbert.com/strip/2021-06-01
Oh yeah, we be changing the English language real good now.
Is referring to an indeterminate person as "one" or "anyone"
an aggression against those with multiple personality......
well, calling it a "disorder" might be another, no?

It's supposed to be "Dissociative Identity Disorder" these days,
until they rename it.

https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/dissociative-disorders/symptoms-causes/syc-20355215
--
Kevin R
Dorothy J Heydt
2021-06-02 01:17:01 UTC
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Post by Lynn McGuire
Dilbert: Anythey
https://dilbert.com/strip/2021-06-01
Oh yeah, we be changing the English language real good now.
I quote the 20th-century poet and linguist Edward Sapir:

"Language drifts down time in a current of its own making."

I foresee that "they" will have replaced all other third-person
pronouns, eliminating both gender and number, by the end of this
century, just as happened with "you," replacing all other
second-person pronouns. I expect this to happen. I also expect
not to live to see it.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/
pete...@gmail.com
2021-06-02 02:41:23 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Lynn McGuire
Dilbert: Anythey
https://dilbert.com/strip/2021-06-01
Oh yeah, we be changing the English language real good now.
"Language drifts down time in a current of its own making."
I foresee that "they" will have replaced all other third-person
pronouns, eliminating both gender and number, by the end of this
century, just as happened with "you," replacing all other
second-person pronouns. I expect this to happen. I also expect
not to live to see it.
This is double plus ungood!

Pt
Lawrence Watt-Evans
2021-06-02 04:50:22 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by ***@gmail.com
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Lynn McGuire
Dilbert: Anythey
https://dilbert.com/strip/2021-06-01
Oh yeah, we be changing the English language real good now.
"Language drifts down time in a current of its own making."
I foresee that "they" will have replaced all other third-person
pronouns, eliminating both gender and number, by the end of this
century, just as happened with "you," replacing all other
second-person pronouns. I expect this to happen. I also expect
not to live to see it.
This is double plus ungood!
This is the Way.
--
My webpage is at http://www.watt-evans.com
My latest novel is Tom Derringer & the Steam-Powered Saurians.
Ted Nolan
2021-06-02 05:04:31 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Lawrence Watt-Evans
Post by ***@gmail.com
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Lynn McGuire
Dilbert: Anythey
https://dilbert.com/strip/2021-06-01
Oh yeah, we be changing the English language real good now.
"Language drifts down time in a current of its own making."
I foresee that "they" will have replaced all other third-person
pronouns, eliminating both gender and number, by the end of this
century, just as happened with "you," replacing all other
second-person pronouns. I expect this to happen. I also expect
not to live to see it.
This is double plus ungood!
This is the Way.
Cue the late, great Carl Wilson...
J. Clarke
2021-06-02 09:29:43 UTC
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Permalink
On Tue, 01 Jun 2021 21:50:22 -0700, Lawrence Watt-Evans
Post by Lawrence Watt-Evans
Post by ***@gmail.com
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Lynn McGuire
Dilbert: Anythey
https://dilbert.com/strip/2021-06-01
Oh yeah, we be changing the English language real good now.
"Language drifts down time in a current of its own making."
I foresee that "they" will have replaced all other third-person
pronouns, eliminating both gender and number, by the end of this
century, just as happened with "you," replacing all other
second-person pronouns. I expect this to happen. I also expect
not to live to see it.
This is double plus ungood!
This is the Way.
This all assumes that English will exist by the end of the century.
After China buys most of the world and conquers what little they can't
buy they may suppress all languages but theirs.
Dorothy J Heydt
2021-06-02 13:59:20 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by J. Clarke
On Tue, 01 Jun 2021 21:50:22 -0700, Lawrence Watt-Evans
Post by Lawrence Watt-Evans
Post by ***@gmail.com
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Lynn McGuire
Dilbert: Anythey
https://dilbert.com/strip/2021-06-01
Oh yeah, we be changing the English language real good now.
"Language drifts down time in a current of its own making."
I foresee that "they" will have replaced all other third-person
pronouns, eliminating both gender and number, by the end of this
century, just as happened with "you," replacing all other
second-person pronouns. I expect this to happen. I also expect
not to live to see it.
This is double plus ungood!
This is the Way.
This all assumes that English will exist by the end of the century.
After China buys most of the world and conquers what little they can't
buy they may suppress all languages but theirs.
Oh, you're a cheery little fellow this morning, aren't you?
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/
Jaimie Vandenbergh
2021-06-02 14:14:30 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On 2 Jun 2021 at 14:59:20 BST, "Dorothy J Heydt" <Dorothy J Heydt>
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by J. Clarke
On Tue, 01 Jun 2021 21:50:22 -0700, Lawrence Watt-Evans
Post by Lawrence Watt-Evans
Post by ***@gmail.com
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Lynn McGuire
Dilbert: Anythey
https://dilbert.com/strip/2021-06-01
Oh yeah, we be changing the English language real good now.
"Language drifts down time in a current of its own making."
I foresee that "they" will have replaced all other third-person
pronouns, eliminating both gender and number, by the end of this
century, just as happened with "you," replacing all other
second-person pronouns. I expect this to happen. I also expect
not to live to see it.
This is double plus ungood!
This is the Way.
This all assumes that English will exist by the end of the century.
After China buys most of the world and conquers what little they can't
buy they may suppress all languages but theirs.
Oh, you're a cheery little fellow this morning, aren't you?
This sort of scaremongering is what keeps R voters voting R. I don't
know how it works, but they love it.

Cheers - Jaimie
--
"The dumbest people I know are those who know it all."
-- Malcolm Forbes
Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
2021-06-02 15:14:47 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Jaimie Vandenbergh
On 2 Jun 2021 at 14:59:20 BST, "Dorothy J Heydt" <Dorothy J
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by J. Clarke
On Tue, 01 Jun 2021 21:50:22 -0700, Lawrence Watt-Evans
Post by Lawrence Watt-Evans
On Tuesday, June 1, 2021 at 9:30:03 PM UTC-4, Dorothy J
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Lynn McGuire
Dilbert: Anythey
https://dilbert.com/strip/2021-06-01
Oh yeah, we be changing the English language real good
now.
"Language drifts down time in a current of its own
making."
I foresee that "they" will have replaced all other
third-person pronouns, eliminating both gender and number,
by the end of this century, just as happened with "you,"
replacing all other second-person pronouns. I expect this
to happen. I also expect not to live to see it.
This is double plus ungood!
This is the Way.
This all assumes that English will exist by the end of the
century. After China buys most of the world and conquers what
little they can't buy they may suppress all languages but
theirs.
Oh, you're a cheery little fellow this morning, aren't you?
This sort of scaremongering is what keeps R voters voting R. I
don't know how it works, but they love it.
These days, Democrats hate China as much as Republicans. China is,
in fact, the world's punching bag right now. Their inept handling
of hte pandemic will have serious consequences for them for
generations.
--
Terry Austin

Proof that Alan Baker is a liar and a fool, and even stupider than
Lynn:
https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/stats/sw-border-migration
(May 2019 total for people arrested for entering the United States
illegally is over 132,000 for just the southwest border.)

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB
Dorothy J Heydt
2021-06-02 15:51:00 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
Post by Jaimie Vandenbergh
On 2 Jun 2021 at 14:59:20 BST, "Dorothy J Heydt" <Dorothy J
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by J. Clarke
On Tue, 01 Jun 2021 21:50:22 -0700, Lawrence Watt-Evans
Post by Lawrence Watt-Evans
On Tuesday, June 1, 2021 at 9:30:03 PM UTC-4, Dorothy J
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Lynn McGuire
Dilbert: Anythey
https://dilbert.com/strip/2021-06-01
Oh yeah, we be changing the English language real good
now.
"Language drifts down time in a current of its own
making."
I foresee that "they" will have replaced all other
third-person pronouns, eliminating both gender and number,
by the end of this century, just as happened with "you,"
replacing all other second-person pronouns. I expect this
to happen. I also expect not to live to see it.
This is double plus ungood!
This is the Way.
This all assumes that English will exist by the end of the
century. After China buys most of the world and conquers what
little they can't buy they may suppress all languages but
theirs.
Oh, you're a cheery little fellow this morning, aren't you?
This sort of scaremongering is what keeps R voters voting R. I
don't know how it works, but they love it.
These days, Democrats hate China as much as Republicans. China is,
in fact, the world's punching bag right now. Their inept handling
of hte pandemic will have serious consequences for them for
generations.
Maybe it will.

As I said elsethread, China has just raised the limit of the
number of children a couple may have to three. And the BBC
interviewed a number of couples-on-the-street, many of them
accompanied by their one child. "Do you want to have more
children?" "No, it's too expensive."
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/
Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
2021-06-02 16:10:59 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
Post by Jaimie Vandenbergh
On 2 Jun 2021 at 14:59:20 BST, "Dorothy J Heydt" <Dorothy J
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by J. Clarke
On Tue, 01 Jun 2021 21:50:22 -0700, Lawrence Watt-Evans
On Tue, 1 Jun 2021 19:41:23 -0700 (PDT),
On Tuesday, June 1, 2021 at 9:30:03 PM UTC-4, Dorothy J
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Lynn McGuire
Dilbert: Anythey
https://dilbert.com/strip/2021-06-01
Oh yeah, we be changing the English language real good now.
"Language drifts down time in a current of its own
making."
I foresee that "they" will have replaced all other
third-person pronouns, eliminating both gender and
number, by the end of this century, just as happened
with "you," replacing all other second-person pronouns.
I expect this to happen. I also expect not to live to
see it.
This is double plus ungood!
This is the Way.
This all assumes that English will exist by the end of the
century. After China buys most of the world and conquers
what little they can't buy they may suppress all languages
but theirs.
Oh, you're a cheery little fellow this morning, aren't you?
This sort of scaremongering is what keeps R voters voting R. I
don't know how it works, but they love it.
These days, Democrats hate China as much as Republicans. China
is, in fact, the world's punching bag right now. Their inept
handling of hte pandemic will have serious consequences for them
for generations.
Maybe it will.
As I said elsethread, China has just raised the limit of the
number of children a couple may have to three. And the BBC
interviewed a number of couples-on-the-street, many of them
accompanied by their one child. "Do you want to have more
children?" "No, it's too expensive."
For a long time, they wanted to reduce their total population.
Then they nices that India was catching up, so the wanted it to
grow. Why they thought that would happen with two children per
couple is beyond me, since it's literally impossible, but hey,
China has never impressed me as being particularly bright.
--
Terry Austin

Proof that Alan Baker is a liar and a fool, and even stupider than
Lynn:
https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/stats/sw-border-migration
(May 2019 total for people arrested for entering the United States
illegally is over 132,000 for just the southwest border.)

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB
Dorothy J Heydt
2021-06-02 15:48:22 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Jaimie Vandenbergh
On 2 Jun 2021 at 14:59:20 BST, "Dorothy J Heydt" <Dorothy J Heydt>
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by J. Clarke
On Tue, 01 Jun 2021 21:50:22 -0700, Lawrence Watt-Evans
Post by Lawrence Watt-Evans
Post by ***@gmail.com
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Lynn McGuire
Dilbert: Anythey
https://dilbert.com/strip/2021-06-01
Oh yeah, we be changing the English language real good now.
"Language drifts down time in a current of its own making."
I foresee that "they" will have replaced all other third-person
pronouns, eliminating both gender and number, by the end of this
century, just as happened with "you," replacing all other
second-person pronouns. I expect this to happen. I also expect
not to live to see it.
This is double plus ungood!
This is the Way.
This all assumes that English will exist by the end of the century.
After China buys most of the world and conquers what little they can't
buy they may suppress all languages but theirs.
Oh, you're a cheery little fellow this morning, aren't you?
This sort of scaremongering is what keeps R voters voting R. I don't
know how it works, but they love it.
Not to mention that they fear that Something In The Water (or The
Air or The Internet) is causing white males to have lower sperm
counts.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/
Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
2021-06-02 16:11:56 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Jaimie Vandenbergh
On 2 Jun 2021 at 14:59:20 BST, "Dorothy J Heydt" <Dorothy J
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by J. Clarke
On Tue, 01 Jun 2021 21:50:22 -0700, Lawrence Watt-Evans
Post by Lawrence Watt-Evans
On Tuesday, June 1, 2021 at 9:30:03 PM UTC-4, Dorothy J
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Lynn McGuire
Dilbert: Anythey
https://dilbert.com/strip/2021-06-01
Oh yeah, we be changing the English language real good
now.
"Language drifts down time in a current of its own
making."
I foresee that "they" will have replaced all other
third-person pronouns, eliminating both gender and
number, by the end of this century, just as happened with
"you," replacing all other second-person pronouns. I
expect this to happen. I also expect not to live to see
it.
This is double plus ungood!
This is the Way.
This all assumes that English will exist by the end of the
century. After China buys most of the world and conquers what
little they can't buy they may suppress all languages but
theirs.
Oh, you're a cheery little fellow this morning, aren't you?
This sort of scaremongering is what keeps R voters voting R. I
don't know how it works, but they love it.
Not to mention that they fear that Something In The Water (or
The Air or The Internet) is causing white males to have lower
sperm counts.
For values of "they" that include a lot of medical researchers,
since something *is* causing lower sperm counts.
--
Terry Austin

Proof that Alan Baker is a liar and a fool, and even stupider than
Lynn:
https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/stats/sw-border-migration
(May 2019 total for people arrested for entering the United States
illegally is over 132,000 for just the southwest border.)

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB
J. Clarke
2021-06-02 16:14:42 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On 2 Jun 2021 14:14:30 GMT, Jaimie Vandenbergh
Post by Jaimie Vandenbergh
On 2 Jun 2021 at 14:59:20 BST, "Dorothy J Heydt" <Dorothy J Heydt>
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by J. Clarke
On Tue, 01 Jun 2021 21:50:22 -0700, Lawrence Watt-Evans
Post by Lawrence Watt-Evans
Post by ***@gmail.com
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Lynn McGuire
Dilbert: Anythey
https://dilbert.com/strip/2021-06-01
Oh yeah, we be changing the English language real good now.
"Language drifts down time in a current of its own making."
I foresee that "they" will have replaced all other third-person
pronouns, eliminating both gender and number, by the end of this
century, just as happened with "you," replacing all other
second-person pronouns. I expect this to happen. I also expect
not to live to see it.
This is double plus ungood!
This is the Way.
This all assumes that English will exist by the end of the century.
After China buys most of the world and conquers what little they can't
buy they may suppress all languages but theirs.
Oh, you're a cheery little fellow this morning, aren't you?
This sort of scaremongering is what keeps R voters voting R. I don't
know how it works, but they love it.
What "scaremongering"? The 19th Century belonged to Britain, the 20th
to the US, if the 21st doesn't belong to China it's because China
screwed up. Fortunately they seem to be working on that.
Paul S Person
2021-06-03 15:42:01 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On 2 Jun 2021 14:14:30 GMT, Jaimie Vandenbergh
Post by Jaimie Vandenbergh
On 2 Jun 2021 at 14:59:20 BST, "Dorothy J Heydt" <Dorothy J Heydt>
<snippo consolidation of third-person pronouns into "they">
Post by Jaimie Vandenbergh
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by J. Clarke
This all assumes that English will exist by the end of the century.
After China buys most of the world and conquers what little they can't
buy they may suppress all languages but theirs.
Oh, you're a cheery little fellow this morning, aren't you?
This sort of scaremongering is what keeps R voters voting R. I don't
know how it works, but they love it.
Well, they /are/ a Commie country, and Republicans have been scared of
Commies for a long long time. This actually made sense in, say, the
50s, and back then they weren't the only ones.
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."
J. Clarke
2021-06-02 16:13:15 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by J. Clarke
On Tue, 01 Jun 2021 21:50:22 -0700, Lawrence Watt-Evans
Post by Lawrence Watt-Evans
Post by ***@gmail.com
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Lynn McGuire
Dilbert: Anythey
https://dilbert.com/strip/2021-06-01
Oh yeah, we be changing the English language real good now.
"Language drifts down time in a current of its own making."
I foresee that "they" will have replaced all other third-person
pronouns, eliminating both gender and number, by the end of this
century, just as happened with "you," replacing all other
second-person pronouns. I expect this to happen. I also expect
not to live to see it.
This is double plus ungood!
This is the Way.
This all assumes that English will exist by the end of the century.
After China buys most of the world and conquers what little they can't
buy they may suppress all languages but theirs.
Oh, you're a cheery little fellow this morning, aren't you?
I'm glad I'm old. I pity the kids for the world they are going to
have to live in.
Alan Baker
2021-06-02 16:18:13 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by J. Clarke
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by J. Clarke
On Tue, 01 Jun 2021 21:50:22 -0700, Lawrence Watt-Evans
Post by Lawrence Watt-Evans
Post by ***@gmail.com
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Lynn McGuire
Dilbert: Anythey
https://dilbert.com/strip/2021-06-01
Oh yeah, we be changing the English language real good now.
"Language drifts down time in a current of its own making."
I foresee that "they" will have replaced all other third-person
pronouns, eliminating both gender and number, by the end of this
century, just as happened with "you," replacing all other
second-person pronouns. I expect this to happen. I also expect
not to live to see it.
This is double plus ungood!
This is the Way.
This all assumes that English will exist by the end of the century.
After China buys most of the world and conquers what little they can't
buy they may suppress all languages but theirs.
Oh, you're a cheery little fellow this morning, aren't you?
I'm glad I'm old. I pity the kids for the world they are going to
have to live in.
Literally every generation has said the same thing.
Magewolf
2021-06-02 17:50:34 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Alan Baker
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by J. Clarke
On Tue, 01 Jun 2021 21:50:22 -0700, Lawrence Watt-Evans
Post by Lawrence Watt-Evans
Post by ***@gmail.com
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Dilbert: Anythey https://dilbert.com/strip/2021-06-01
Oh yeah, we be changing the English language real good now.
"Language drifts down time in a current of its own making."
I foresee that "they" will have replaced all other third-person
pronouns, eliminating both gender and number, by the end of this
century, just as happened with "you," replacing all other
second-person pronouns. I expect this to happen. I also expect not
to live to see it.
This is double plus ungood!
This is the Way.
This all assumes that English will exist by the end of the century.
After China buys most of the world and conquers what little they
can't buy they may suppress all languages but theirs.
Oh, you're a cheery little fellow this morning, aren't you?
I'm glad I'm old. I pity the kids for the world they are going to have
to live in.
Literally every generation has said the same thing.
And sometimes they are right and sometimes they are wrong so that is a
useless statement.
Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
2021-06-02 18:16:59 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Magewolf
Post by Alan Baker
Post by J. Clarke
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by J. Clarke
On Tue, 01 Jun 2021 21:50:22 -0700, Lawrence Watt-Evans
On Tue, 1 Jun 2021 19:41:23 -0700 (PDT),
On Tuesday, June 1, 2021 at 9:30:03 PM UTC-4, Dorothy J
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Dilbert: Anythey https://dilbert.com/strip/2021-06-01
Oh yeah, we be changing the English language real good
now.
"Language drifts down time in a current of its own
making."
I foresee that "they" will have replaced all other
third-person pronouns, eliminating both gender and
number, by the end of this century, just as happened with
"you," replacing all other second-person pronouns. I
expect this to happen. I also expect not to live to see
it.
This is double plus ungood!
This is the Way.
This all assumes that English will exist by the end of the
century. After China buys most of the world and conquers
what little they can't buy they may suppress all languages
but theirs.
Oh, you're a cheery little fellow this morning, aren't you?
I'm glad I'm old. I pity the kids for the world they are
going to have to live in.
Literally every generation has said the same thing.
And sometimes they are right and sometimes they are wrong so
that is a useless statement.
Clarke's, or Alan's? Or both?
--
Terry Austin

Proof that Alan Baker is a liar and a fool, and even stupider than
Lynn:
https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/stats/sw-border-migration
(May 2019 total for people arrested for entering the United States
illegally is over 132,000 for just the southwest border.)

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB
Lawrence Watt-Evans
2021-06-02 17:45:28 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Wed, 02 Jun 2021 05:29:43 -0400, J. Clarke
Post by J. Clarke
On Tue, 01 Jun 2021 21:50:22 -0700, Lawrence Watt-Evans
Post by Lawrence Watt-Evans
Post by ***@gmail.com
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Lynn McGuire
Dilbert: Anythey
https://dilbert.com/strip/2021-06-01
Oh yeah, we be changing the English language real good now.
"Language drifts down time in a current of its own making."
I foresee that "they" will have replaced all other third-person
pronouns, eliminating both gender and number, by the end of this
century, just as happened with "you," replacing all other
second-person pronouns. I expect this to happen. I also expect
not to live to see it.
This is double plus ungood!
This is the Way.
This all assumes that English will exist by the end of the century.
After China buys most of the world and conquers what little they can't
buy they may suppress all languages but theirs.
They haven't managed to do that in China. They do seem to have forced
Cantonese into decline, though it still has tens (or hundreds, I'm not
sure) of millions of speakers, but Wu is still about even with
Mandarin, and Mai, Jin, and others are also doing fine, all without
mentioning the languages like Uighur and Tibetan that aren't even
closely related to Chinese.

For that matter, "Mandarin" is barely a single language anymore.
They've finally stopped pretending Jin is just a dialect of Mandarin,
but I have seen people who both thought they were native Mandarin
speakers who could only communicate in writing. I was in a railroad
waiting room in Beijing in 2006 where a volunteer in the crowd got up
on a bench to translate the announcements from the Lower Beijing
dialect into Standard Mandarin to make them intelligible.

(What's especially amusing is that Standard Mandarin is officially the
Beijing dialect. It just isn't what most of the ordinary people in
Beijing speak; it's what the government uses.)

So in the unlikely event that China conquers the world, I don't expect
them to have any more success suppressing English than Franco did in
suppressing Catalan or Basque.
--
My webpage is at http://www.watt-evans.com
My latest novel is Tom Derringer & the Steam-Powered Saurians.
Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
2021-06-02 18:16:24 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Lawrence Watt-Evans
On Wed, 02 Jun 2021 05:29:43 -0400, J. Clarke
Post by J. Clarke
On Tue, 01 Jun 2021 21:50:22 -0700, Lawrence Watt-Evans
Post by Lawrence Watt-Evans
Post by ***@gmail.com
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Lynn McGuire
Dilbert: Anythey
https://dilbert.com/strip/2021-06-01
Oh yeah, we be changing the English language real good now.
"Language drifts down time in a current of its own making."
I foresee that "they" will have replaced all other
third-person pronouns, eliminating both gender and number,
by the end of this century, just as happened with "you,"
replacing all other second-person pronouns. I expect this to
happen. I also expect not to live to see it.
This is double plus ungood!
This is the Way.
This all assumes that English will exist by the end of the
century. After China buys most of the world and conquers what
little they can't buy they may suppress all languages but
theirs.
They haven't managed to do that in China. They do seem to have
forced Cantonese into decline, though it still has tens (or
hundreds, I'm not sure) of millions of speakers, but Wu is still
about even with Mandarin, and Mai, Jin, and others are also
doing fine, all without mentioning the languages like Uighur and
Tibetan that aren't even closely related to Chinese.
For that matter, "Mandarin" is barely a single language anymore.
They've finally stopped pretending Jin is just a dialect of
Mandarin, but I have seen people who both thought they were
native Mandarin speakers who could only communicate in writing.
I was in a railroad waiting room in Beijing in 2006 where a
volunteer in the crowd got up on a bench to translate the
announcements from the Lower Beijing dialect into Standard
Mandarin to make them intelligible.
(What's especially amusing is that Standard Mandarin is
officially the Beijing dialect. It just isn't what most of the
ordinary people in Beijing speak; it's what the government
uses.)
So in the unlikely event that China conquers the world, I don't
expect them to have any more success suppressing English than
Franco did in suppressing Catalan or Basque.
Teh French has made a concerted effort for deacdes to suppress
English, with pretty limited success.

People gonna people.
--
Terry Austin

Proof that Alan Baker is a liar and a fool, and even stupider than
Lynn:
https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/stats/sw-border-migration
(May 2019 total for people arrested for entering the United States
illegally is over 132,000 for just the southwest border.)

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB
Dorothy J Heydt
2021-06-02 23:17:51 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
Post by Lawrence Watt-Evans
On Wed, 02 Jun 2021 05:29:43 -0400, J. Clarke
Post by J. Clarke
On Tue, 01 Jun 2021 21:50:22 -0700, Lawrence Watt-Evans
Post by Lawrence Watt-Evans
Post by ***@gmail.com
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Lynn McGuire
Dilbert: Anythey
https://dilbert.com/strip/2021-06-01
Oh yeah, we be changing the English language real good now.
"Language drifts down time in a current of its own making."
I foresee that "they" will have replaced all other
third-person pronouns, eliminating both gender and number,
by the end of this century, just as happened with "you,"
replacing all other second-person pronouns. I expect this to
happen. I also expect not to live to see it.
This is double plus ungood!
This is the Way.
This all assumes that English will exist by the end of the
century. After China buys most of the world and conquers what
little they can't buy they may suppress all languages but
theirs.
They haven't managed to do that in China. They do seem to have
forced Cantonese into decline, though it still has tens (or
hundreds, I'm not sure) of millions of speakers, but Wu is still
about even with Mandarin, and Mai, Jin, and others are also
doing fine, all without mentioning the languages like Uighur and
Tibetan that aren't even closely related to Chinese.
For that matter, "Mandarin" is barely a single language anymore.
They've finally stopped pretending Jin is just a dialect of
Mandarin, but I have seen people who both thought they were
native Mandarin speakers who could only communicate in writing.
I was in a railroad waiting room in Beijing in 2006 where a
volunteer in the crowd got up on a bench to translate the
announcements from the Lower Beijing dialect into Standard
Mandarin to make them intelligible.
(What's especially amusing is that Standard Mandarin is
officially the Beijing dialect. It just isn't what most of the
ordinary people in Beijing speak; it's what the government
uses.)
So in the unlikely event that China conquers the world, I don't
expect them to have any more success suppressing English than
Franco did in suppressing Catalan or Basque.
Teh French has made a concerted effort for deacdes to suppress
English, with pretty limited success.
I'm assuming you mean "suppress English loanwords in French"?
Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
People gonna people.
And language gonna language. I've already quoted Sapir upthread,
I believe.
Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB
Have you seen the coverage of the volcano that opened up a while
back in the southwest end of Iceland?

Here's a live camera:



Nothing much doing at the moment, but there's a lava flow running
from east to west (right to left) that's threatening to flow over
a berm set up to stop it. Many, many drones have met a fiery end
in it.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/
Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
2021-06-03 16:01:10 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
Post by Lawrence Watt-Evans
On Wed, 02 Jun 2021 05:29:43 -0400, J. Clarke
Post by J. Clarke
On Tue, 01 Jun 2021 21:50:22 -0700, Lawrence Watt-Evans
Post by Lawrence Watt-Evans
On Tuesday, June 1, 2021 at 9:30:03 PM UTC-4, Dorothy J
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Lynn McGuire
Dilbert: Anythey
https://dilbert.com/strip/2021-06-01
Oh yeah, we be changing the English language real good
now.
"Language drifts down time in a current of its own
making."
I foresee that "they" will have replaced all other
third-person pronouns, eliminating both gender and number,
by the end of this century, just as happened with "you,"
replacing all other second-person pronouns. I expect this
to happen. I also expect not to live to see it.
This is double plus ungood!
This is the Way.
This all assumes that English will exist by the end of the
century. After China buys most of the world and conquers what
little they can't buy they may suppress all languages but
theirs.
They haven't managed to do that in China. They do seem to
have forced Cantonese into decline, though it still has tens
(or hundreds, I'm not sure) of millions of speakers, but Wu is
still about even with Mandarin, and Mai, Jin, and others are
also doing fine, all without mentioning the languages like
Uighur and Tibetan that aren't even closely related to
Chinese.
For that matter, "Mandarin" is barely a single language
anymore. They've finally stopped pretending Jin is just a
dialect of Mandarin, but I have seen people who both thought
they were native Mandarin speakers who could only communicate
in writing. I was in a railroad waiting room in Beijing in
2006 where a volunteer in the crowd got up on a bench to
translate the announcements from the Lower Beijing dialect
into Standard Mandarin to make them intelligible.
(What's especially amusing is that Standard Mandarin is
officially the Beijing dialect. It just isn't what most of
the ordinary people in Beijing speak; it's what the government
uses.)
So in the unlikely event that China conquers the world, I
don't expect them to have any more success suppressing English
than Franco did in suppressing Catalan or Basque.
Teh French has made a concerted effort for deacdes to suppress
English, with pretty limited success.
I'm assuming you mean "suppress English loanwords in French"?
Those get the most press, but they don't much like any foreign
words polluting the purity of the French languge.
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
People gonna people.
And language gonna language. I've already quoted Sapir
upthread, I believe.
Hence the limited degree of success historically.
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB
Have you seen the coverage of the volcano that opened up a while
back in the southwest end of Iceland?
http://youtu.be/I1I-0PUhFmU
Nothing much doing at the moment, but there's a lava flow
running from east to west (right to left) that's threatening to
flow over a berm set up to stop it. Many, many drones have met
a fiery end in it.
It has apparently become quite the tourist attraction, for both
foreigners and locals. Fortunately, nothing major is threatened so
far (and Iceland has a history of going to pretty epic efforts to
protect towns from volcanoes. The (response to the) Eldfell
eruption in 1973 was one of the inspirations for the movie Volcano
with Tommy Lee Jones.
--
Terry Austin

Proof that Alan Baker is a liar and a fool, and even stupider than
Lynn:
https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/stats/sw-border-migration
(May 2019 total for people arrested for entering the United States
illegally is over 132,000 for just the southwest border.)

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB
Dorothy J Heydt
2021-06-03 17:00:47 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
Teh French has made a concerted effort for deacdes to suppress
English, with pretty limited success.
I'm assuming you mean "suppress English loanwords in French"?
Those get the most press, but they don't much like any foreign
words polluting the purity of the French languge.
Interesting. From what other language(s) have loanwords invaded
the purity of the French language?
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/
Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
2021-06-03 17:36:18 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
Teh French has made a concerted effort for deacdes to suppress
English, with pretty limited success.
I'm assuming you mean "suppress English loanwords in French"?
Those get the most press, but they don't much like any foreign
words polluting the purity of the French languge.
Interesting. From what other language(s) have loanwords invaded
the purity of the French language?
No idea off hand, but it seems vanishingly unlikely that English is
the *only* language doing so. Especially given the growing population
of Arabic and Farsi speakers there, and the ubiquitious Chinese.
--
Terry Austin

Proof that Alan Baker is a liar and a fool, and even stupider than
Lynn:
https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/stats/sw-border-migration
(May 2019 total for people arrested for entering the United States
illegally is over 132,000 for just the southwest border.)

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB
Jack Bohn
2021-06-07 13:38:04 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
Interesting. From what other language(s) have loanwords invaded
the purity of the French language?
No idea off hand, but it seems vanishingly unlikely that English is
the *only* language doing so. Especially given the growing population
of Arabic and Farsi speakers there, and the ubiquitious Chinese.
H.P. Lovecraft's use of the word "esquimaux" once led me to find the French borrowed a neighbor's insult for those people. (I don't know if it wasn't Americanized to "eskimo" by then, but Lovecraft seemed to have a principle (probably learned from Poe) to only use an obscure, foreign, or archaic word if he couldn't find a string of obscure, foreign, or archaic words to use.)

From the Arctic Circle down to New Orleans, French Guiana, Algiers, the French Congo, and French Indochina, it's quite likely they would borrow local words for local flora, fauna, conditions, and practices. (I thought I'd look up "bungalow;" the internet tells me there are two phrases in French to describe it, but suggests they will also just say "bungalow," not even "bungaleau.") I suppose Napoleon's conquest of Europe did not discover anything they didn't already have a word for.

My first hearing of the purity of the French language was when they were resisting the Japanese term "Walkman," hoping to substitute something based on the French word for balladeer.
--
-Jack
John Halpenny
2021-06-07 15:38:38 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
Interesting. From what other language(s) have loanwords invaded
the purity of the French language?
No idea off hand, but it seems vanishingly unlikely that English is
the *only* language doing so. Especially given the growing population
of Arabic and Farsi speakers there, and the ubiquitious Chinese.
H.P. Lovecraft's use of the word "esquimaux" once led me to find the French borrowed a neighbor's insult for those people. (I don't know if it wasn't Americanized to "eskimo" by then, but Lovecraft seemed to have a principle (probably learned from Poe) to only use an obscure, foreign, or archaic word if he couldn't find a string of obscure, foreign, or archaic words to use.)
From the Arctic Circle down to New Orleans, French Guiana, Algiers, the French Congo, and French Indochina, it's quite likely they would borrow local words for local flora, fauna, conditions, and practices. (I thought I'd look up "bungalow;" the internet tells me there are two phrases in French to describe it, but suggests they will also just say "bungalow," not even "bungaleau.") I suppose Napoleon's conquest of Europe did not discover anything they didn't already have a word for.
My first hearing of the purity of the French language was when they were resisting the Japanese term "Walkman," hoping to substitute something based on the French word for balladeer.
--
-Jack
My wife was a translator for the Canadian government, from English to French. The highest rank in the office was "Terminologist" , someone charged with coming up with words that sounded French to replace the nasty but common English-sounding ones.

John
pete...@gmail.com
2021-06-08 02:02:27 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
Interesting. From what other language(s) have loanwords invaded
the purity of the French language?
No idea off hand, but it seems vanishingly unlikely that English is
the *only* language doing so. Especially given the growing population
of Arabic and Farsi speakers there, and the ubiquitious Chinese.
H.P. Lovecraft's use of the word "esquimaux" once led me to find the French borrowed a neighbor's insult for those people. (I don't know if it wasn't Americanized to "eskimo" by then, but Lovecraft seemed to have a principle (probably learned from Poe) to only use an obscure, foreign, or archaic word if he couldn't find a string of obscure, foreign, or archaic words to use.)
From the Arctic Circle down to New Orleans, French Guiana, Algiers, the French Congo, and French Indochina, it's quite likely they would borrow local words for local flora, fauna, conditions, and practices. (I thought I'd look up "bungalow;" the internet tells me there are two phrases in French to describe it, but suggests they will also just say "bungalow," not even "bungaleau.") I suppose Napoleon's conquest of Europe did not discover anything they didn't already have a word for.
My first hearing of the purity of the French language was when they were resisting the Japanese term "Walkman," hoping to substitute something based on the French word for balladeer.
--
-Jack
My wife was a translator for the Canadian government, from English to French. The highest rank in the office was "Terminologist" , someone charged with coming up with words that sounded French to replace the nasty but common English-sounding ones.
In Israel, The Academy of the Hebrew Language claims the authority to coin words, but
apparently is little heeded.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Academy_of_the_Hebrew_Language

Pt
Moriarty
2021-06-08 03:03:58 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by ***@gmail.com
Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
Interesting. From what other language(s) have loanwords invaded
the purity of the French language?
No idea off hand, but it seems vanishingly unlikely that English is
the *only* language doing so. Especially given the growing population
of Arabic and Farsi speakers there, and the ubiquitious Chinese.
H.P. Lovecraft's use of the word "esquimaux" once led me to find the French borrowed a neighbor's insult for those people. (I don't know if it wasn't Americanized to "eskimo" by then, but Lovecraft seemed to have a principle (probably learned from Poe) to only use an obscure, foreign, or archaic word if he couldn't find a string of obscure, foreign, or archaic words to use.)
From the Arctic Circle down to New Orleans, French Guiana, Algiers, the French Congo, and French Indochina, it's quite likely they would borrow local words for local flora, fauna, conditions, and practices. (I thought I'd look up "bungalow;" the internet tells me there are two phrases in French to describe it, but suggests they will also just say "bungalow," not even "bungaleau.") I suppose Napoleon's conquest of Europe did not discover anything they didn't already have a word for.
My first hearing of the purity of the French language was when they were resisting the Japanese term "Walkman," hoping to substitute something based on the French word for balladeer.
--
-Jack
My wife was a translator for the Canadian government, from English to French. The highest rank in the office was "Terminologist" , someone charged with coming up with words that sounded French to replace the nasty but common English-sounding ones.
In Israel, The Academy of the Hebrew Language claims the authority to coin words, but
apparently is little heeded.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Academy_of_the_Hebrew_Language
There was something similar in France a couple of decades ago: a government agency tasked with coming up with French terms for new concepts (software, IT, programmer, etc) rather than the populace simply pilfering from another language.

I suspect they weren't heeded either.

-Moriarty

Dorothy J Heydt
2021-06-07 15:33:33 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Jack Bohn
Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
Interesting. From what other language(s) have loanwords invaded
the purity of the French language?
No idea off hand, but it seems vanishingly unlikely that English is
the *only* language doing so. Especially given the growing population
of Arabic and Farsi speakers there, and the ubiquitious Chinese.
H.P. Lovecraft's use of the word "esquimaux" once led me to find the
French borrowed a neighbor's insult for those people. (I don't know if
it wasn't Americanized to "eskimo" by then, but Lovecraft seemed to have
a principle (probably learned from Poe) to only use an obscure, foreign,
or archaic word if he couldn't find a string of obscure, foreign, or
archaic words to use.)
Reminds me of Milton, whose _modus operandi_ appears to have been
that if there was a word in Latin, it could also be a word in
English, all one had to do was remove the inflectional ending. I
can't give any examples offhand, and my _Paradise Lost_ is in the
fiction room, and if I go there the cats will follow. But trust
me: his English is chock-full of truncatd Latin.
Post by Jack Bohn
From the Arctic Circle down to New Orleans, French Guiana, Algiers, the
French Congo, and French Indochina, it's quite likely they would borrow
local words for local flora, fauna, conditions, and practices. (I
thought I'd look up "bungalow;" the internet tells me there are two
phrases in French to describe it, but suggests they will also just say
"bungalow," not even "bungaleau.") I suppose Napoleon's conquest of
Europe did not discover anything they didn't already have a word for.
My first hearing of the purity of the French language was when they were
resisting the Japanese term "Walkman,"
Which is itself cobbled together from English!
Post by Jack Bohn
hoping to substitute something
based on the French word for balladeer.
I remember that. I assume it didn't hang on?

There was a period in the 20th century when loanwords into German
wete discouraged, and all sorts of lengthy strings of Germanic
roots were coined. _Fernsprecher_ for "telephone," e.g. And
sometimes the words got too long even for German: consider
_Sturtzkampfflugzeug_, "dive bomber, which got shortened to
_Stuka._
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/
Ted Nolan
2021-06-07 16:03:05 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Jack Bohn
Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
Interesting. From what other language(s) have loanwords invaded
the purity of the French language?
No idea off hand, but it seems vanishingly unlikely that English is
the *only* language doing so. Especially given the growing population
of Arabic and Farsi speakers there, and the ubiquitious Chinese.
H.P. Lovecraft's use of the word "esquimaux" once led me to find the
French borrowed a neighbor's insult for those people. (I don't know if
it wasn't Americanized to "eskimo" by then, but Lovecraft seemed to have
a principle (probably learned from Poe) to only use an obscure, foreign,
or archaic word if he couldn't find a string of obscure, foreign, or
archaic words to use.)
Reminds me of Milton, whose _modus operandi_ appears to have been
that if there was a word in Latin, it could also be a word in
English, all one had to do was remove the inflectional ending. I
can't give any examples offhand, and my _Paradise Lost_ is in the
fiction room, and if I go there the cats will follow. But trust
me: his English is chock-full of truncatd Latin.
Post by Jack Bohn
From the Arctic Circle down to New Orleans, French Guiana, Algiers, the
French Congo, and French Indochina, it's quite likely they would borrow
local words for local flora, fauna, conditions, and practices. (I
thought I'd look up "bungalow;" the internet tells me there are two
phrases in French to describe it, but suggests they will also just say
"bungalow," not even "bungaleau.") I suppose Napoleon's conquest of
Europe did not discover anything they didn't already have a word for.
My first hearing of the purity of the French language was when they were
resisting the Japanese term "Walkman,"
Which is itself cobbled together from English!
Post by Jack Bohn
hoping to substitute something
based on the French word for balladeer.
I remember that. I assume it didn't hang on?
There was a period in the 20th century when loanwords into German
wete discouraged, and all sorts of lengthy strings of Germanic
roots were coined. _Fernsprecher_ for "telephone," e.g. And
sometimes the words got too long even for German: consider
_Sturtzkampfflugzeug_, "dive bomber, which got shortened to
_Stuka._
Loading Image...
Paul S Person
2021-06-07 16:37:58 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Jack Bohn
Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
Interesting. From what other language(s) have loanwords invaded
the purity of the French language?
No idea off hand, but it seems vanishingly unlikely that English is
the *only* language doing so. Especially given the growing population
of Arabic and Farsi speakers there, and the ubiquitious Chinese.
H.P. Lovecraft's use of the word "esquimaux" once led me to find the
French borrowed a neighbor's insult for those people. (I don't know if
it wasn't Americanized to "eskimo" by then, but Lovecraft seemed to have
a principle (probably learned from Poe) to only use an obscure, foreign,
or archaic word if he couldn't find a string of obscure, foreign, or
archaic words to use.)
Reminds me of Milton, whose _modus operandi_ appears to have been
that if there was a word in Latin, it could also be a word in
English, all one had to do was remove the inflectional ending. I
can't give any examples offhand, and my _Paradise Lost_ is in the
fiction room, and if I go there the cats will follow. But trust
me: his English is chock-full of truncatd Latin.
Post by Jack Bohn
From the Arctic Circle down to New Orleans, French Guiana, Algiers, the
French Congo, and French Indochina, it's quite likely they would borrow
local words for local flora, fauna, conditions, and practices. (I
thought I'd look up "bungalow;" the internet tells me there are two
phrases in French to describe it, but suggests they will also just say
"bungalow," not even "bungaleau.") I suppose Napoleon's conquest of
Europe did not discover anything they didn't already have a word for.
My first hearing of the purity of the French language was when they were
resisting the Japanese term "Walkman,"
Which is itself cobbled together from English!
Post by Jack Bohn
hoping to substitute something
based on the French word for balladeer.
I remember that. I assume it didn't hang on?
There was a period in the 20th century when loanwords into German
wete discouraged, and all sorts of lengthy strings of Germanic
roots were coined. _Fernsprecher_ for "telephone," e.g. And
sometimes the words got too long even for German: consider
_Sturtzkampfflugzeug_, "dive bomber, which got shortened to
_Stuka._
That sort of thing happens in English, just for phrases.

We call them "acronyms" and spell them in ALL CAPS.

But it's the same idea.
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."
J. Clarke
2021-06-07 16:59:51 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Jack Bohn
Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
Interesting. From what other language(s) have loanwords invaded
the purity of the French language?
No idea off hand, but it seems vanishingly unlikely that English is
the *only* language doing so. Especially given the growing population
of Arabic and Farsi speakers there, and the ubiquitious Chinese.
H.P. Lovecraft's use of the word "esquimaux" once led me to find the
French borrowed a neighbor's insult for those people. (I don't know if
it wasn't Americanized to "eskimo" by then, but Lovecraft seemed to have
a principle (probably learned from Poe) to only use an obscure, foreign,
or archaic word if he couldn't find a string of obscure, foreign, or
archaic words to use.)
Reminds me of Milton, whose _modus operandi_ appears to have been
that if there was a word in Latin, it could also be a word in
English, all one had to do was remove the inflectional ending. I
can't give any examples offhand, and my _Paradise Lost_ is in the
fiction room, and if I go there the cats will follow. But trust
me: his English is chock-full of truncatd Latin.
Post by Jack Bohn
From the Arctic Circle down to New Orleans, French Guiana, Algiers, the
French Congo, and French Indochina, it's quite likely they would borrow
local words for local flora, fauna, conditions, and practices. (I
thought I'd look up "bungalow;" the internet tells me there are two
phrases in French to describe it, but suggests they will also just say
"bungalow," not even "bungaleau.") I suppose Napoleon's conquest of
Europe did not discover anything they didn't already have a word for.
My first hearing of the purity of the French language was when they were
resisting the Japanese term "Walkman,"
Which is itself cobbled together from English!
Post by Jack Bohn
hoping to substitute something
based on the French word for balladeer.
I remember that. I assume it didn't hang on?
There was a period in the 20th century when loanwords into German
wete discouraged, and all sorts of lengthy strings of Germanic
roots were coined. _Fernsprecher_ for "telephone," e.g. And
sometimes the words got too long even for German: consider
_Sturtzkampfflugzeug_, "dive bomber, which got shortened to
_Stuka._
There was also (not sure I recall the spelling correctly)
"fliegerabteilungkanone", aka "flak", and when they changed the mount
the same gun became "panzerabteilungkanone" or "pak".
Dorothy J Heydt
2021-06-04 17:00:29 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
Teh French has made a concerted effort for deacdes to suppress
English, with pretty limited success.
I'm assuming you mean "suppress English loanwords in French"?
Those get the most press, but they don't much like any foreign
words polluting the purity of the French languge.
Interesting. From what other language(s) have loanwords invaded
the purity of the French language?
There are some German terms generally considered to be untranslatable
into English (and so swallowed whole), so German would be a
possibility.
Weltschmertz, e.g.

But I think these German terms were adapted holus-bolus into
Englsh not because they were untranslatable, but because English
ran German down a dark alley and rifled its pockets.
Of course, it could be argued that English and German are, from the
viewpoint of French, one and the same.
Reminds me of the statement attributed to some Islamic
viewpoint-maker: "All infidels are the same."
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/
Paul S Person
2021-06-05 16:13:37 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
Teh French has made a concerted effort for deacdes to suppress
English, with pretty limited success.
I'm assuming you mean "suppress English loanwords in French"?
Those get the most press, but they don't much like any foreign
words polluting the purity of the French languge.
Interesting. From what other language(s) have loanwords invaded
the purity of the French language?
There are some German terms generally considered to be untranslatable
into English (and so swallowed whole), so German would be a
possibility.
Weltschmertz, e.g.
But I think these German terms were adapted holus-bolus into
Englsh not because they were untranslatable, but because English
ran German down a dark alley and rifled its pockets.
Well, maybe, but most of those I used to run into were in translations
into English of German theological works. No doubt general
philosophical works also have a few.

They were swallowed whole because there was no English equivalent, nor
any way (short of a paragraph or perhaps a small book) to explain the
concept in English.
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Of course, it could be argued that English and German are, from the
viewpoint of French, one and the same.
Reminds me of the statement attributed to some Islamic
viewpoint-maker: "All infidels are the same."
Well, in one way they are: they are all infidels.

Most stereotypes have /some/ basis in fact, they just aren't as
general as believed.
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."
Christian Weisgerber
2021-06-07 16:06:36 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Interesting. From what other language(s) have loanwords invaded
the purity of the French language?
Large-scale borrowing tends to occur at a prestige differential:
Vocabulary is taken from the prestige language into the less
prestigious one. Now, for much of the Middle Ages and a few centuries
after, France was THE most powerful, rich, and esteemed country in
Europe. Consequently, loans flowed from French into other languages.
You can find them from the Atlantic to the Urals and the Bosporus.
The English did this even more excessively than the rest of the
continent.

For more than singular loans into French, you need to look at what
languages held prestige over French, in France, at some time or
other. The obvious big one is Latin. French has continually
borrowed from Latin for as long as you could distinguish the two.
A less obvious candidate is Occitan aka Provençal. I think Italian
also enjoyed a brief period of prestige during the Renaissance.

Here's a cheap hint if you're hunting for loanwords: No natively
French word can have the sequence <ca>. It shifted without exception
to <cha> (sometimes the vowel was later modified due to secondary
developments) on the way to Old French. Every word with <ca> in
it is most likely a borrowing.

Obviously, French also picked up plenty of individual loans from
contact languages such as Dutch, German, Arabic, etc., but that's
not the kind of borrowing that sets people off about "purity".
--
Christian "naddy" Weisgerber ***@mips.inka.de
Lawrence Watt-Evans
2021-06-07 23:11:34 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Mon, 7 Jun 2021 16:06:36 -0000 (UTC), Christian Weisgerber
Post by Christian Weisgerber
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Interesting. From what other language(s) have loanwords invaded
the purity of the French language?
Vocabulary is taken from the prestige language into the less
prestigious one. Now, for much of the Middle Ages and a few centuries
after, France was THE most powerful, rich, and esteemed country in
Europe. Consequently, loans flowed from French into other languages.
You can find them from the Atlantic to the Urals and the Bosporus.
The English did this even more excessively than the rest of the
continent.
You aren't fluent in Russian, are you?

Pretty much every modern word in pre-Revolutionary Russian was taken
from French; the only exception I can think of was "vokzal," meaning
"railroad station," which was borrowed from English -- it's from
"Vauxhall," because the Russians who first brought steam train
technology back to the Tsar's engineers thought "Vauxhall Station" was
the generic term rather than a proper name.

Sometimes the French roots aren't all that obvious, since the Cyrillic
spellings are all phonetic (e.g., "restoran" for "restaurant"), but
they're there.

I know the English borrowed a lot from French, but the Russians were
just as enthusiastic about it.
--
My webpage is at http://www.watt-evans.com
My latest novel is Tom Derringer & the Steam-Powered Saurians.
pete...@gmail.com
2021-06-08 02:10:34 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Lawrence Watt-Evans
On Mon, 7 Jun 2021 16:06:36 -0000 (UTC), Christian Weisgerber
Post by Christian Weisgerber
Interesting. From what other language(s) have loanwords invaded
the purity of the French language?
Vocabulary is taken from the prestige language into the less
prestigious one. Now, for much of the Middle Ages and a few centuries
after, France was THE most powerful, rich, and esteemed country in
Europe. Consequently, loans flowed from French into other languages.
You can find them from the Atlantic to the Urals and the Bosporus.
The English did this even more excessively than the rest of the
continent.
You aren't fluent in Russian, are you?
Pretty much every modern word in pre-Revolutionary Russian was taken
from French; the only exception I can think of was "vokzal," meaning
"railroad station," which was borrowed from English -- it's from
"Vauxhall," because the Russians who first brought steam train
technology back to the Tsar's engineers thought "Vauxhall Station" was
the generic term rather than a proper name.
Sometimes the French roots aren't all that obvious, since the Cyrillic
spellings are all phonetic (e.g., "restoran" for "restaurant"), but
they're there.
I know the English borrowed a lot from French, but the Russians were
just as enthusiastic about it.
When the English already had a word, they happily adopted the French one,
but kept the old as well, sometimes with a subtle shift in meaning, such as
'boat' and 'ship'. Did Russian do the same?

Pt
pete...@gmail.com
2021-06-03 22:52:20 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
Post by Lawrence Watt-Evans
On Wed, 02 Jun 2021 05:29:43 -0400, J. Clarke
Post by J. Clarke
On Tue, 01 Jun 2021 21:50:22 -0700, Lawrence Watt-Evans
Post by Lawrence Watt-Evans
On Tuesday, June 1, 2021 at 9:30:03 PM UTC-4, Dorothy J
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Lynn McGuire
Dilbert: Anythey
https://dilbert.com/strip/2021-06-01
Oh yeah, we be changing the English language real good now.
"Language drifts down time in a current of its own
making."
I foresee that "they" will have replaced all other
third-person pronouns, eliminating both gender and number,
by the end of this century, just as happened with "you,"
replacing all other second-person pronouns. I expect this
to happen. I also expect not to live to see it.
This is double plus ungood!
This is the Way.
This all assumes that English will exist by the end of the
century. After China buys most of the world and conquers what
little they can't buy they may suppress all languages but
theirs.
They haven't managed to do that in China. They do seem to
have forced Cantonese into decline, though it still has tens
(or hundreds, I'm not sure) of millions of speakers, but Wu is
still about even with Mandarin, and Mai, Jin, and others are
also doing fine, all without mentioning the languages like
Uighur and Tibetan that aren't even closely related to
Chinese.
For that matter, "Mandarin" is barely a single language
anymore. They've finally stopped pretending Jin is just a
dialect of Mandarin, but I have seen people who both thought
they were native Mandarin speakers who could only communicate
in writing. I was in a railroad waiting room in Beijing in
2006 where a volunteer in the crowd got up on a bench to
translate the announcements from the Lower Beijing dialect
into Standard Mandarin to make them intelligible.
(What's especially amusing is that Standard Mandarin is
officially the Beijing dialect. It just isn't what most of
the ordinary people in Beijing speak; it's what the government
uses.)
So in the unlikely event that China conquers the world, I
don't expect them to have any more success suppressing English
than Franco did in suppressing Catalan or Basque.
Teh French has made a concerted effort for deacdes to suppress
English, with pretty limited success.
I'm assuming you mean "suppress English loanwords in French"?
Those get the most press, but they don't much like any foreign
words polluting the purity of the French languge.
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
People gonna people.
And language gonna language. I've already quoted Sapir
upthread, I believe.
Hence the limited degree of success historically.
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB
Have you seen the coverage of the volcano that opened up a while
back in the southwest end of Iceland?
http://youtu.be/I1I-0PUhFmU
Nothing much doing at the moment, but there's a lava flow
running from east to west (right to left) that's threatening to
flow over a berm set up to stop it. Many, many drones have met
a fiery end in it.
It has apparently become quite the tourist attraction, for both
foreigners and locals. Fortunately, nothing major is threatened so
far (and Iceland has a history of going to pretty epic efforts to
protect towns from volcanoes. The (response to the) Eldfell
eruption in 1973 was one of the inspirations for the movie Volcano
with Tommy Lee Jones.
I've been following the Geldingadalir eruption since it was just a suspicious
series of earthquakes.

It's been an astonishingly tourist-friendly eruption, a couple miles off a main road
and a stiff walk. It's not explosive, but has had lava fountains up to 1000 feet tall.

It's slowly filling the valleys around it, and forcing viewers farther away. One branch,
to the south, is threatening to cut a main road in the next month or so, on its way
to the sea. They are reburying fiber optic cables along the road down 2 meters to
protect them.

The site is very windy, and there has been few problems with gases. Flow has been
gradually increasing, and the experts think this could be the start of a period of increased
volcanism in the area that could last a century.

pt
J. Clarke
2021-06-02 20:46:32 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Wed, 02 Jun 2021 10:45:28 -0700, Lawrence Watt-Evans
Post by Lawrence Watt-Evans
On Wed, 02 Jun 2021 05:29:43 -0400, J. Clarke
Post by J. Clarke
On Tue, 01 Jun 2021 21:50:22 -0700, Lawrence Watt-Evans
Post by Lawrence Watt-Evans
Post by ***@gmail.com
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Lynn McGuire
Dilbert: Anythey
https://dilbert.com/strip/2021-06-01
Oh yeah, we be changing the English language real good now.
"Language drifts down time in a current of its own making."
I foresee that "they" will have replaced all other third-person
pronouns, eliminating both gender and number, by the end of this
century, just as happened with "you," replacing all other
second-person pronouns. I expect this to happen. I also expect
not to live to see it.
This is double plus ungood!
This is the Way.
This all assumes that English will exist by the end of the century.
After China buys most of the world and conquers what little they can't
buy they may suppress all languages but theirs.
They haven't managed to do that in China. They do seem to have forced
Cantonese into decline, though it still has tens (or hundreds, I'm not
sure) of millions of speakers, but Wu is still about even with
Mandarin, and Mai, Jin, and others are also doing fine, all without
mentioning the languages like Uighur and Tibetan that aren't even
closely related to Chinese.
For that matter, "Mandarin" is barely a single language anymore.
They've finally stopped pretending Jin is just a dialect of Mandarin,
but I have seen people who both thought they were native Mandarin
speakers who could only communicate in writing. I was in a railroad
waiting room in Beijing in 2006 where a volunteer in the crowd got up
on a bench to translate the announcements from the Lower Beijing
dialect into Standard Mandarin to make them intelligible.
(What's especially amusing is that Standard Mandarin is officially the
Beijing dialect. It just isn't what most of the ordinary people in
Beijing speak; it's what the government uses.)
So in the unlikely event that China conquers the world, I don't expect
them to have any more success suppressing English than Franco did in
suppressing Catalan or Basque.
However Franco had other issues to deal with, didn't have access to a
modern surveillance state, and had to concern himself at least
somewhat with what the rest of the world thinks. Once China is on
top, they won't have any of those checks on their power.
Dorothy J Heydt
2021-06-02 05:30:44 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by ***@gmail.com
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Lynn McGuire
Dilbert: Anythey
https://dilbert.com/strip/2021-06-01
Oh yeah, we be changing the English language real good now.
"Language drifts down time in a current of its own making."
I foresee that "they" will have replaced all other third-person
pronouns, eliminating both gender and number, by the end of this
century, just as happened with "you," replacing all other
second-person pronouns. I expect this to happen. I also expect
not to live to see it.
This is double plus ungood!
I don't suppose that you will live to see it either, so don't
worry about it.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/
Robert Woodward
2021-06-02 17:08:54 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by ***@gmail.com
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Lynn McGuire
Dilbert: Anythey
https://dilbert.com/strip/2021-06-01
Oh yeah, we be changing the English language real good now.
"Language drifts down time in a current of its own making."
I foresee that "they" will have replaced all other third-person
pronouns, eliminating both gender and number, by the end of this
century, just as happened with "you," replacing all other
second-person pronouns. I expect this to happen. I also expect
not to live to see it.
This is double plus ungood!
I don't suppose that you will live to see it either, so don't
worry about it.
But what about cases where individuals are discussed as part of a group
(with some references to the group and others to the individuals)? New
pronouns would need to be invented. It would be simpler to invent an
alternate singular first.
--
"We have advanced to new and surprising levels of bafflement."
Imperial Auditor Miles Vorkosigan describes progress in _Komarr_.
‹-----------------------------------------------------
Robert Woodward ***@drizzle.com
Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
2021-06-02 17:25:54 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Robert Woodward
In article
Post by ***@gmail.com
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Lynn McGuire
Dilbert: Anythey
https://dilbert.com/strip/2021-06-01
Oh yeah, we be changing the English language real good now.
"Language drifts down time in a current of its own making."
I foresee that "they" will have replaced all other
third-person pronouns, eliminating both gender and number,
by the end of this century, just as happened with "you,"
replacing all other second-person pronouns. I expect this to
happen. I also expect not to live to see it.
This is double plus ungood!
I don't suppose that you will live to see it either, so don't
worry about it.
But what about cases where individuals are discussed as part of
a group (with some references to the group and others to the
individuals)? New pronouns would need to be invented. It would
be simpler to invent an alternate singular first.
The objection, right now, is any pronoun that idenfies gender at
all in any way, because some people demand to be able to change
what gender they feel like any any time, without having to inform
anyone else of the change, and without having ever, even once, hear
the wrong one.

If the current trend fails at effective communication, it will
alter course. If it succeeds, it will continue. No one's personal
opinion will alter this in any way.
--
Terry Austin

Proof that Alan Baker is a liar and a fool, and even stupider than
Lynn:
https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/stats/sw-border-migration
(May 2019 total for people arrested for entering the United States
illegally is over 132,000 for just the southwest border.)

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB
John Halpenny
2021-06-02 17:51:25 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
Post by Robert Woodward
In article
Post by ***@gmail.com
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Lynn McGuire
Dilbert: Anythey
https://dilbert.com/strip/2021-06-01
Oh yeah, we be changing the English language real good now.
"Language drifts down time in a current of its own making."
I foresee that "they" will have replaced all other
third-person pronouns, eliminating both gender and number,
by the end of this century, just as happened with "you,"
replacing all other second-person pronouns. I expect this to
happen. I also expect not to live to see it.
This is double plus ungood!
I don't suppose that you will live to see it either, so don't
worry about it.
But what about cases where individuals are discussed as part of
a group (with some references to the group and others to the
individuals)? New pronouns would need to be invented. It would
be simpler to invent an alternate singular first.
The objection, right now, is any pronoun that idenfies gender at
all in any way, because some people demand to be able to change
what gender they feel like any any time, without having to inform
anyone else of the change, and without having ever, even once, hear
the wrong one.
If the current trend fails at effective communication, it will
alter course. If it succeeds, it will continue. No one's personal
opinion will alter this in any way.
--
When did you ever think that those pushing the change want effective communication? What these people want to do is hide the shameful, to them, fact that they are female or male. The same thing happened when they abolished Miss and Mrs., to avoid embarrassed by being on the side of the line they didn't want.

My great aunt lived to be 93, and she was always "_Miss_ Balance, and don't you forget it!"
Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
2021-06-02 18:14:43 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Wednesday, June 2, 2021 at 1:25:59 PM UTC-4, Jibini Kula
Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
Post by Robert Woodward
In article
On Tuesday, June 1, 2021 at 9:30:03 PM UTC-4, Dorothy J
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Lynn McGuire
Dilbert: Anythey
https://dilbert.com/strip/2021-06-01
Oh yeah, we be changing the English language real good
now.
"Language drifts down time in a current of its own
making."
I foresee that "they" will have replaced all other
third-person pronouns, eliminating both gender and
number, by the end of this century, just as happened with
"you," replacing all other second-person pronouns. I
expect this to happen. I also expect not to live to see
it.
This is double plus ungood!
I don't suppose that you will live to see it either, so
don't worry about it.
But what about cases where individuals are discussed as part
of a group (with some references to the group and others to
the individuals)? New pronouns would need to be invented. It
would be simpler to invent an alternate singular first.
The objection, right now, is any pronoun that idenfies gender
at all in any way, because some people demand to be able to
change what gender they feel like any any time, without having
to inform anyone else of the change, and without having ever,
even once, hear the wrong one.
If the current trend fails at effective communication, it will
alter course. If it succeeds, it will continue. No one's
personal opinion will alter this in any way.
--
When did you ever think that those pushing the change want
effective communication?
What part of "No one's personal opinion will later this in any
way" isn't clear? Is there a word there you don't understand?

What these people want to do is hide
the shameful, to them, fact that they are female or male. The
same thing happened when they abolished Miss and Mrs., to avoid
embarrassed by being on the side of the line they didn't want.
What they *want* matters only to them, in the long run. They can
agitate, perhaps with some degree of success for a short time, but
as we see every day, the pushback has already begun and is getting
stronger. People will only put up with bullshit for so long.
--
Terry Austin

Proof that Alan Baker is a liar and a fool, and even stupider than
Lynn:
https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/stats/sw-border-migration
(May 2019 total for people arrested for entering the United States
illegally is over 132,000 for just the southwest border.)

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB
Dorothy J Heydt
2021-06-02 23:28:05 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
Post by Robert Woodward
In article
Post by ***@gmail.com
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Lynn McGuire
Dilbert: Anythey
https://dilbert.com/strip/2021-06-01
Oh yeah, we be changing the English language real good now.
"Language drifts down time in a current of its own making."
I foresee that "they" will have replaced all other
third-person pronouns, eliminating both gender and number,
by the end of this century, just as happened with "you,"
replacing all other second-person pronouns. I expect this to
happen. I also expect not to live to see it.
This is double plus ungood!
I don't suppose that you will live to see it either, so don't
worry about it.
But what about cases where individuals are discussed as part of
a group (with some references to the group and others to the
individuals)? New pronouns would need to be invented. It would
be simpler to invent an alternate singular first.
The objection, right now, is any pronoun that idenfies gender at
all in any way, because some people demand to be able to change
what gender they feel like any any time, without having to inform
anyone else of the change, and without having ever, even once, hear
the wrong one.
Such a person would do well to inform friends, co-workers, and
what not of what pronouns are currently preferred. Or to attend
events with the chosen pronouns listed under the name.

DunDraCon bought a set of little transparent stickers with
various choices of pronouns on them for DunDraCon 45. Some of
them even got used.
Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
If the current trend fails at effective communication, it will
alter course. If it succeeds, it will continue. No one's personal
opinion will alter this in any way.
Well, those of us who are young now (whom count me not among) may
live to see what happens.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/
J. Clarke
2021-06-02 23:55:49 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
Post by Robert Woodward
In article
Post by ***@gmail.com
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Lynn McGuire
Dilbert: Anythey
https://dilbert.com/strip/2021-06-01
Oh yeah, we be changing the English language real good now.
"Language drifts down time in a current of its own making."
I foresee that "they" will have replaced all other
third-person pronouns, eliminating both gender and number,
by the end of this century, just as happened with "you,"
replacing all other second-person pronouns. I expect this to
happen. I also expect not to live to see it.
This is double plus ungood!
I don't suppose that you will live to see it either, so don't
worry about it.
But what about cases where individuals are discussed as part of
a group (with some references to the group and others to the
individuals)? New pronouns would need to be invented. It would
be simpler to invent an alternate singular first.
The objection, right now, is any pronoun that idenfies gender at
all in any way, because some people demand to be able to change
what gender they feel like any any time, without having to inform
anyone else of the change, and without having ever, even once, hear
the wrong one.
Such a person would do well to inform friends, co-workers, and
what not of what pronouns are currently preferred. Or to attend
events with the chosen pronouns listed under the name.
DunDraCon bought a set of little transparent stickers with
various choices of pronouns on them for DunDraCon 45. Some of
them even got used.
This is done formally at work--we are asked what pronouns we prefer
and it is documented.
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
If the current trend fails at effective communication, it will
alter course. If it succeeds, it will continue. No one's personal
opinion will alter this in any way.
Well, those of us who are young now (whom count me not among) may
live to see what happens.
Dorothy J Heydt
2021-06-03 00:24:20 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by J. Clarke
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
DunDraCon bought a set of little transparent stickers with
various choices of pronouns on them for DunDraCon 45. Some of
them even got used.
This is done formally at work--we are asked what pronouns we prefer
and it is documented.
That's good ... unles some of your co-workers choose to change
their pronounc every couple of weeks, as somebody upthread
suggested.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/
Lynn McGuire
2021-06-03 01:07:37 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by J. Clarke
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
DunDraCon bought a set of little transparent stickers with
various choices of pronouns on them for DunDraCon 45. Some of
them even got used.
This is done formally at work--we are asked what pronouns we prefer
and it is documented.
That's good ... unles some of your co-workers choose to change
their pronounc every couple of weeks, as somebody upthread
suggested.
My cousin's FEED books had the camera person changing their identity and
pronouns every day. I never could figure out what their true gender was
in the books.
https://www.amazon.com/Feed-Newsflesh-Book-Mira-Grant/dp/0316081051/

Lynn
Dorothy J Heydt
2021-06-03 02:28:21 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by J. Clarke
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
DunDraCon bought a set of little transparent stickers with
various choices of pronouns on them for DunDraCon 45. Some of
them even got used.
This is done formally at work--we are asked what pronouns we prefer
and it is documented.
That's good ... unles some of your co-workers choose to change
their pronounc every couple of weeks, as somebody upthread
suggested.
My cousin's FEED books had the camera person changing their identity and
^^^^^^^^
Are you and Seanan McGuire actually related? You used to say you
weren't. Did you find out differently?
Post by Lynn McGuire
pronouns every day. I never could figure out what their true gender was
in the books.
https://www.amazon.com/Feed-Newsflesh-Book-Mira-Grant/dp/0316081051/
I guess you're not supposed to.

Halt, mentioned upthread, looks (at first glance*) like somebody's
little old grandmother. But Halt is an entelech, that is to say,
a monster from outside the world, and although Halt is addressed
as "Madame" by someone who has just met Halt, by and large no
pronouns are appropriate.

______
*At second glance, if one has the necessary skill, Halt looks
like a great big spider. At third glance Halt's shadow looks
like a bundle of raspberry canes before they leaf out in the
spring.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/
Robert Carnegie
2021-06-03 11:02:19 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by J. Clarke
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
DunDraCon bought a set of little transparent stickers with
various choices of pronouns on them for DunDraCon 45. Some of
them even got used.
This is done formally at work--we are asked what pronouns we prefer
and it is documented.
That's good ... unles some of your co-workers choose to change
their pronounc every couple of weeks, as somebody upthread
suggested.
My cousin's FEED books had the camera person changing their identity and
pronouns every day. I never could figure out what their true gender was
in the books.
https://www.amazon.com/Feed-Newsflesh-Book-Mira-Grant/dp/0316081051/
Variant; but weren't they telling you, at all times?

Having said that, misusing the privilege by playing
with it undermines the value of having pronouns at all.
Then you'll get called by name, or nickname, or kenning.
Perhaps skip nicknames as that can be abusive,
particularly if most people in the community don't
have one.

I don't know how far it's based on traditional tales,
but I think a Thor comic has Thor spend most of an issue
fencing with Jormungand[r] the dragon - they are fated
to kill each other - physically and verbally, concealing
his identity and giving a series of alternative, possibly
genuine names. Oh, here it is - quoted.
<https://marvel.fandom.com/wiki/Thor_Vol_1_379>

The dragon initially is disguised as the less intimidating
regular dragon character Fin Fang Foom.

I think the next issue is them beating on each other
one whole page at a time. And then dying, of course. :-)
Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
2021-06-03 16:07:54 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by J. Clarke
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
DunDraCon bought a set of little transparent stickers with
various choices of pronouns on them for DunDraCon 45. Some
of them even got used.
This is done formally at work--we are asked what pronouns we
prefer and it is documented.
That's good ... unles some of your co-workers choose to
change their pronounc every couple of weeks, as somebody
upthread suggested.
My cousin's FEED books had the camera person changing their
identity and pronouns every day. I never could figure out what
their true gender was in the books.
https://www.amazon.com/Feed-Newsflesh-Book-Mira-Grant/dp/0316081
051/
Variant; but weren't they telling you, at all times?
Having said that, misusing the privilege by playing
with it undermines the value of having pronouns at all.
Then you'll get called by name, or nickname, or kenning.
Perhaps skip nicknames as that can be abusive,
particularly if most people in the community don't
have one.
It doesn't take much for me to settling on "Hey, you." And if you
object to that, it may well turn to "Hey, stupid."
--
Terry Austin

Proof that Alan Baker is a liar and a fool, and even stupider than
Lynn:
https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/stats/sw-border-migration
(May 2019 total for people arrested for entering the United States
illegally is over 132,000 for just the southwest border.)

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB
Magewolf
2021-06-03 19:36:02 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by J. Clarke
DunDraCon bought a set of little transparent stickers with various
choices of pronouns on them for DunDraCon 45. Some of them even got
used.
This is done formally at work--we are asked what pronouns we prefer
and it is documented.
That's good ... unles some of your co-workers choose to change their
pronounc every couple of weeks, as somebody upthread suggested.
My cousin's FEED books had the camera person changing their identity and
pronouns every day. I never could figure out what their true gender was
in the books.
https://www.amazon.com/Feed-Newsflesh-Book-Mira-Grant/dp/0316081051/
Lynn
Having to deal with a situation very similar in real life I decided their
true gender was asshole.
Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
2021-06-03 19:43:14 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Magewolf
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by J. Clarke
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
DunDraCon bought a set of little transparent stickers with
various choices of pronouns on them for DunDraCon 45. Some
of them even got used.
This is done formally at work--we are asked what pronouns we
prefer and it is documented.
That's good ... unles some of your co-workers choose to change
their pronounc every couple of weeks, as somebody upthread
suggested.
My cousin's FEED books had the camera person changing their
identity and pronouns every day. I never could figure out what
their true gender was in the books.
https://www.amazon.com/Feed-Newsflesh-Book-Mira-Grant/dp/031
6081051/
Lynn
Having to deal with a situation very similar in real life I
decided their true gender was asshole.
And what is the correct third party pronoun for that? Enquiring
minds want to know.
--
Terry Austin

Proof that Alan Baker is a liar and a fool, and even stupider than
Lynn:
https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/stats/sw-border-migration
(May 2019 total for people arrested for entering the United States
illegally is over 132,000 for just the southwest border.)

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB
Kevrob
2021-06-03 21:21:24 UTC
Reply
Permalink
[snip]
Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
Post by Magewolf
Having to deal with a situation very similar in real life I
decided their true gender was asshole.
And what is the correct third party pronoun for that? Enquiring
minds want to know.
--
I've heard "Ter'" is under consideration. :)
--
Kevin R
Lynn McGuire
2021-06-03 21:55:02 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
Post by Magewolf
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by J. Clarke
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
DunDraCon bought a set of little transparent stickers with
various choices of pronouns on them for DunDraCon 45. Some
of them even got used.
This is done formally at work--we are asked what pronouns we
prefer and it is documented.
That's good ... unles some of your co-workers choose to change
their pronounc every couple of weeks, as somebody upthread
suggested.
My cousin's FEED books had the camera person changing their
identity and pronouns every day. I never could figure out what
their true gender was in the books.
https://www.amazon.com/Feed-Newsflesh-Book-Mira-Grant/dp/031
6081051/
Lynn
Having to deal with a situation very similar in real life I
decided their true gender was asshole.
And what is the correct third party pronoun for that? Enquiring
minds want to know.
Piehole ?

Lynn
J. Clarke
2021-06-03 20:49:53 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Magewolf
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by J. Clarke
DunDraCon bought a set of little transparent stickers with various
choices of pronouns on them for DunDraCon 45. Some of them even got
used.
This is done formally at work--we are asked what pronouns we prefer
and it is documented.
That's good ... unles some of your co-workers choose to change their
pronounc every couple of weeks, as somebody upthread suggested.
My cousin's FEED books had the camera person changing their identity and
pronouns every day. I never could figure out what their true gender was
in the books.
https://www.amazon.com/Feed-Newsflesh-Book-Mira-Grant/dp/0316081051/
Lynn
Having to deal with a situation very similar in real life I decided their
true gender was asshole.
That seems to be pretty much the deal.
Lynn McGuire
2021-06-03 21:53:45 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by J. Clarke
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
DunDraCon bought a set of little transparent stickers with
various choices of pronouns on them for DunDraCon 45.  Some of
them even got used.
This is done formally at work--we are asked what pronouns we prefer
and it is documented.
That's good ... unles some of your co-workers choose to change
their pronounc every couple of weeks, as somebody upthread
suggested.
My cousin's FEED books had the camera person changing their identity and
pronouns every day.  I never could figure out what their true gender was
in the books.
   https://www.amazon.com/Feed-Newsflesh-Book-Mira-Grant/dp/0316081051/
Lynn
No idea if we are related. We both have the same middle and last name
so I go on the presumption.

Probably not though. McGuire is Irish for Smith. We are many.

Lynn
Dorothy J Heydt
2021-06-03 23:06:53 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by J. Clarke
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
DunDraCon bought a set of little transparent stickers with
various choices of pronouns on them for DunDraCon 45.  Some of
them even got used.
This is done formally at work--we are asked what pronouns we prefer
and it is documented.
That's good ... unles some of your co-workers choose to change
their pronounc every couple of weeks, as somebody upthread
suggested.
My cousin's FEED books had the camera person changing their identity and
pronouns every day.  I never could figure out what their true gender was
in the books.
   https://www.amazon.com/Feed-Newsflesh-Book-Mira-Grant/dp/0316081051/
Lynn
No idea if we are related. We both have the same middle and last name
so I go on the presumption.
Probably not though. McGuire is Irish for Smith. We are many.
Gotcha.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/
Titus G
2021-06-03 23:49:22 UTC
Reply
Permalink
snip
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Lynn McGuire
No idea if we are related. We both have the same middle and last name
so I go on the presumption.
Probably not though. McGuire is Irish for Smith. We are many.
Gotcha.
As usual, Dimwire is wrong. MacGowan is the Irish for son of Smith.
McGuire means sallow or dun coloured or son of a swarthy man and is
Scottish.
Scott Lurndal
2021-06-04 00:32:47 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Titus G
snip
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Lynn McGuire
No idea if we are related. We both have the same middle and last name
so I go on the presumption.
Probably not though. McGuire is Irish for Smith. We are many.
Gotcha.
As usual, Dimwire is wrong. MacGowan is the Irish for son of Smith.
McGuire means sallow or dun coloured or son of a swarthy man and is
Scottish.
To be fair, and not to defend him in general, I suspect he was not
being literal but rather noting that it is amongst the most common
surnames. Smith and Jones are often cited as such in the USA.
Kevrob
2021-06-04 03:10:49 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Titus G
snip
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
No idea if we are related. We both have the same middle and last name
so I go on the presumption.
Probably not though. McGuire is Irish for Smith. We are many.
Gotcha.
As usual, Dimwire is wrong. MacGowan is the Irish for son of Smith.
That's right.
Post by Titus G
McGuire means sallow or dun coloured or son of a swarthy man and is
Scottish.
Maguire/McGuire is Irish, though the Scots are certainly entitled
to use it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maguire

[quote]

The name is derived from the Irish Gaelic, Mag-Uidhir
(Mag, Mac - son of & Uidhir - Dun colored, sallow)

[/quote]

https://electricscotland.com/webclans/scotsirish/maguire.htm.

McGuire can be a variant of MacQuarrie

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clan_MacQuarrie
--
Kevin R
Paul S Person
2021-06-03 15:49:25 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by J. Clarke
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
DunDraCon bought a set of little transparent stickers with
various choices of pronouns on them for DunDraCon 45. Some of
them even got used.
This is done formally at work--we are asked what pronouns we prefer
and it is documented.
That's good ... unles some of your co-workers choose to change
their pronounc every couple of weeks, as somebody upthread
suggested.
But how often does that happen?

Alternately: what percentage of the population changes pronouns
regularly?
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."
Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
2021-06-03 16:08:44 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Paul S Person
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by J. Clarke
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
DunDraCon bought a set of little transparent stickers with
various choices of pronouns on them for DunDraCon 45. Some of
them even got used.
This is done formally at work--we are asked what pronouns we
prefer and it is documented.
That's good ... unles some of your co-workers choose to change
their pronounc every couple of weeks, as somebody upthread
suggested.
But how often does that happen?
Alternately: what percentage of the population changes pronouns
regularly?
It only needs to happen once to annoy people neough to damage the
movement because people stop taking it seriously.
--
Terry Austin

Proof that Alan Baker is a liar and a fool, and even stupider than
Lynn:
https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/stats/sw-border-migration
(May 2019 total for people arrested for entering the United States
illegally is over 132,000 for just the southwest border.)

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB
Dorothy J Heydt
2021-06-03 17:12:15 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
Post by Paul S Person
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by J. Clarke
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
DunDraCon bought a set of little transparent stickers with
various choices of pronouns on them for DunDraCon 45. Some of
them even got used.
This is done formally at work--we are asked what pronouns we
prefer and it is documented.
That's good ... unles some of your co-workers choose to change
their pronounc every couple of weeks, as somebody upthread
suggested.
But how often does that happen?
Alternately: what percentage of the population changes pronouns
regularly?
It only needs to happen once to annoy people neough to damage the
movement because people stop taking it seriously.
Nitpick: if it only happens once, then the people who hear one
individual change pronouns regularly will stop taking him/her/it/
them/whatever seriously, and refer to other people by their
(unchanging, or seldom changing) pronouns of choice.

"Oh, yeah, there goes Quibble again, what pronoun is it this week?"

"Dunno, I heard about it third-hand. I'm just going to address
Quibble face-to-face as "you", and not talk about Quibble in the
third person at all."

I have a trans granddaughter. Born male, she told her parents
shortly before her fourth birthday that she wanted to be a girl.
Her parents said, "Uh, okay." (And are now researching
trans-friendly kindergartens.)

Hal and I said, "Uh, okay." Our daughter Meg, who has one
cis-male son, said, "Oh, goodie!" and bought her a dress designed
to fit (and delight) four-year-old girls. It has a plain black
bodice and a very full skirt consisting of multiple gores in
multiple colors, suitable for twirling in. Granddaughter loves
it.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/
Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
2021-06-03 17:37:05 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
Post by Paul S Person
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by J. Clarke
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
DunDraCon bought a set of little transparent stickers with
various choices of pronouns on them for DunDraCon 45. Some
of them even got used.
This is done formally at work--we are asked what pronouns we
prefer and it is documented.
That's good ... unles some of your co-workers choose to change
their pronounc every couple of weeks, as somebody upthread
suggested.
But how often does that happen?
Alternately: what percentage of the population changes
pronouns regularly?
It only needs to happen once to annoy people neough to damage
the movement because people stop taking it seriously.
Nitpick: if it only happens once, then the people who hear one
individual change pronouns regularly will stop taking
him/her/it/ them/whatever seriously, and refer to other people
by their (unchanging, or seldom changing) pronouns of choice.
You've led a very sheltered life.
--
Terry Austin

Proof that Alan Baker is a liar and a fool, and even stupider than
Lynn:
https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/stats/sw-border-migration
(May 2019 total for people arrested for entering the United States
illegally is over 132,000 for just the southwest border.)

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB
Dorothy J Heydt
2021-06-03 17:01:52 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Paul S Person
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by J. Clarke
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
DunDraCon bought a set of little transparent stickers with
various choices of pronouns on them for DunDraCon 45. Some of
them even got used.
This is done formally at work--we are asked what pronouns we prefer
and it is documented.
That's good ... unles some of your co-workers choose to change
their pronounc every couple of weeks, as somebody upthread
suggested.
But how often does that happen?
Alternately: what percentage of the population changes pronouns
regularly?
Damfino. Anyone have any actual data?
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/
Dimensional Traveler
2021-06-03 01:16:13 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
The objection, right now, is any pronoun that idenfies gender at
all in any way, because some people demand to be able to change
what gender they feel like any any time, without having to inform
anyone else of the change, and without having ever, even once, hear
the wrong one.
Such a person would do well to inform friends, co-workers, and
what not of what pronouns are currently preferred. Or to attend
events with the chosen pronouns listed under the name.
But then they couldn't be outraged and get angry with someone for not
using the correct pronoun whenever they wanted to!
--
Troll, troll, troll your post gently down the thread
Angrily, angrily, angrily, the net's a nut's scream.
Dorothy J Heydt
2021-06-03 02:38:41 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Dimensional Traveler
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
The objection, right now, is any pronoun that idenfies gender at
all in any way, because some people demand to be able to change
what gender they feel like any any time, without having to inform
anyone else of the change, and without having ever, even once, hear
the wrong one.
Such a person would do well to inform friends, co-workers, and
what not of what pronouns are currently preferred. Or to attend
events with the chosen pronouns listed under the name.
But then they couldn't be outraged and get angry with someone for not
using the correct pronoun whenever they wanted to!
Well, that would depend on what the hypothetical person's
hypothetical motives were. If they simply wanted to be referred
to by the pronouns they preferred, that's one thing. If they
wanted continually to have an opportunity to be outraged and get
angry every day, that's another thing.

Cf. Graydon's Halt, whom I mentioned a post or two ago, for whom
no pronouns are appropriate.

On the other hand, the second-person pronoun "you" has already
abandoned both gender and number. So one could say, "Good
morning, Halt. Has Blossom reported to you yet about the
swampdee invasion?"

"Yes, dear, they came by this morning before breakfast. All
taken care of."
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/
Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
2021-06-03 16:10:47 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Dimensional Traveler
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
The objection, right now, is any pronoun that idenfies gender
at all in any way, because some people demand to be able to
change what gender they feel like any any time, without
having to inform anyone else of the change, and without
having ever, even once, hear the wrong one.
Such a person would do well to inform friends, co-workers, and
what not of what pronouns are currently preferred. Or to
attend events with the chosen pronouns listed under the name.
But then they couldn't be outraged and get angry with someone
for not using the correct pronoun whenever they wanted to!
Well, that would depend on what the hypothetical person's
hypothetical motives were. If they simply wanted to be referred
to by the pronouns they preferred, that's one thing. If they
wanted continually to have an opportunity to be outraged and get
angry every day, that's another thing.
Cf. Graydon's Halt, whom I mentioned a post or two ago, for whom
no pronouns are appropriate.
On the other hand, the second-person pronoun "you" has already
abandoned both gender and number. So one could say, "Good
morning, Halt. Has Blossom reported to you yet about the
swampdee invasion?"
"Yes, dear, they came by this morning before breakfast. All
taken care of."
It's rare that there's any ambiguity about the specific person
being referred to with a second-person pronoun. This is not true
with thrid-person.
--
Terry Austin

Proof that Alan Baker is a liar and a fool, and even stupider than
Lynn:
https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/stats/sw-border-migration
(May 2019 total for people arrested for entering the United States
illegally is over 132,000 for just the southwest border.)

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB
Dorothy J Heydt
2021-06-03 17:24:01 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Dimensional Traveler
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
The objection, right now, is any pronoun that idenfies gender
at all in any way, because some people demand to be able to
change what gender they feel like any any time, without
having to inform anyone else of the change, and without
having ever, even once, hear the wrong one.
Such a person would do well to inform friends, co-workers, and
what not of what pronouns are currently preferred. Or to
attend events with the chosen pronouns listed under the name.
But then they couldn't be outraged and get angry with someone
for not using the correct pronoun whenever they wanted to!
Well, that would depend on what the hypothetical person's
hypothetical motives were. If they simply wanted to be referred
to by the pronouns they preferred, that's one thing. If they
wanted continually to have an opportunity to be outraged and get
angry every day, that's another thing.
Cf. Graydon's Halt, whom I mentioned a post or two ago, for whom
no pronouns are appropriate.
On the other hand, the second-person pronoun "you" has already
abandoned both gender and number. So one could say, "Good
morning, Halt. Has Blossom reported to you yet about the
swampdee invasion?"
"Yes, dear, they came by this morning before breakfast. All
taken care of."
[Afterthought: perhaps I should have mentioned that both Halt and
Blossom are individuals, though each has several personae. One
of Halt's looks like this:

Loading Image...

Or I think so, anyway. ]
Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
It's rare that there's any ambiguity about the specific person
being referred to with a second-person pronoun. This is not true
with thrid-person.
Well.... because "you" in its root form can be either singular or
plural, various plural forms ("you-all," "youins," and others I'm
not familiar with) have been retconned. Who knows whether
all-purpose "they" will eventually develop a retconned singular
form?

I can look on the possibility of this happening without anxiety,
because I will be 79 next week and do not expect to see the end of
this century. Let it do its thing.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/
Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
2021-06-03 18:05:57 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Dimensional Traveler
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
The objection, right now, is any pronoun that idenfies
gender at all in any way, because some people demand to be
able to change what gender they feel like any any time,
without having to inform anyone else of the change, and
without having ever, even once, hear the wrong one.
Such a person would do well to inform friends, co-workers,
and what not of what pronouns are currently preferred. Or
to attend events with the chosen pronouns listed under the
name.
But then they couldn't be outraged and get angry with someone
for not using the correct pronoun whenever they wanted to!
Well, that would depend on what the hypothetical person's
hypothetical motives were. If they simply wanted to be
referred to by the pronouns they preferred, that's one thing.
If they wanted continually to have an opportunity to be
outraged and get angry every day, that's another thing.
Cf. Graydon's Halt, whom I mentioned a post or two ago, for
whom no pronouns are appropriate.
On the other hand, the second-person pronoun "you" has already
abandoned both gender and number. So one could say, "Good
morning, Halt. Has Blossom reported to you yet about the
swampdee invasion?"
"Yes, dear, they came by this morning before breakfast. All
taken care of."
[Afterthought: perhaps I should have mentioned that both Halt
and Blossom are individuals, though each has several personae.
https://40.media.tumblr.com/a252c3714c420f949d97a64718170f2f/tumb
lr_nq11e7nvAP1qz6pzqo1_540.jpg
Or I think so, anyway. ]
Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
It's rare that there's any ambiguity about the specific person
being referred to with a second-person pronoun. This is not true
with thrid-person.
Well.... because "you" in its root form can be either singular
or plural, various plural forms ("you-all," "youins," and others
I'm not familiar with) have been retconned. Who knows whether
all-purpose "they" will eventually develop a retconned singular
form?
It's because "you," by definition, applies to the person you're
talking to. Zero ambiguity. And "they," by deifnition, applies to
someone *else*, and sometimes, there's a lot of ambiguity as to
which "they" you mean.
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
I can look on the possibility of this happening without anxiety,
because I will be 79 next week and do not expect to see the end
of this century. Let it do its thing.
Let it or not, it will regardless.
--
Terry Austin

Proof that Alan Baker is a liar and a fool, and even stupider than
Lynn:
https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/stats/sw-border-migration
(May 2019 total for people arrested for entering the United States
illegally is over 132,000 for just the southwest border.)

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB
Gary R. Schmidt
2021-06-04 03:43:54 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Dimensional Traveler
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
The objection, right now, is any pronoun that idenfies gender
at all in any way, because some people demand to be able to
change what gender they feel like any any time, without
having to inform anyone else of the change, and without
having ever, even once, hear the wrong one.
Such a person would do well to inform friends, co-workers, and
what not of what pronouns are currently preferred. Or to
attend events with the chosen pronouns listed under the name.
But then they couldn't be outraged and get angry with someone
for not using the correct pronoun whenever they wanted to!
Well, that would depend on what the hypothetical person's
hypothetical motives were. If they simply wanted to be referred
to by the pronouns they preferred, that's one thing. If they
wanted continually to have an opportunity to be outraged and get
angry every day, that's another thing.
Cf. Graydon's Halt, whom I mentioned a post or two ago, for whom
no pronouns are appropriate.
On the other hand, the second-person pronoun "you" has already
abandoned both gender and number. So one could say, "Good
morning, Halt. Has Blossom reported to you yet about the
swampdee invasion?"
"Yes, dear, they came by this morning before breakfast. All
taken care of."
[Afterthought: perhaps I should have mentioned that both Halt and
Blossom are individuals, though each has several personae. One
https://40.media.tumblr.com/a252c3714c420f949d97a64718170f2f/tumblr_nq11e7nvAP1qz6pzqo1_540.jpg
Or I think so, anyway. ]
Snerk! Absolutely brilliant!!

Cheers,
Gary B-)
--
Waiting for a new signature to suggest itself...
Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
2021-06-03 16:09:31 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Dimensional Traveler
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
The objection, right now, is any pronoun that idenfies gender
at all in any way, because some people demand to be able to
change what gender they feel like any any time, without having
to inform anyone else of the change, and without having ever,
even once, hear the wrong one.
Such a person would do well to inform friends, co-workers, and
what not of what pronouns are currently preferred. Or to
attend events with the chosen pronouns listed under the name.
But then they couldn't be outraged and get angry with someone
for not using the correct pronoun whenever they wanted to!
It takes on the appearance of a trick question: no matter what answer
you offer, it's wrong. Because it's not about the answer, it's about
the outrage at you being wrong.
--
Terry Austin

Proof that Alan Baker is a liar and a fool, and even stupider than
Lynn:
https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/stats/sw-border-migration
(May 2019 total for people arrested for entering the United States
illegally is over 132,000 for just the southwest border.)

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB
Dorothy J Heydt
2021-06-03 17:24:33 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
Post by Dimensional Traveler
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
The objection, right now, is any pronoun that idenfies gender
at all in any way, because some people demand to be able to
change what gender they feel like any any time, without having
to inform anyone else of the change, and without having ever,
even once, hear the wrong one.
Such a person would do well to inform friends, co-workers, and
what not of what pronouns are currently preferred. Or to
attend events with the chosen pronouns listed under the name.
But then they couldn't be outraged and get angry with someone
for not using the correct pronoun whenever they wanted to!
It takes on the appearance of a trick question: no matter what answer
you offer, it's wrong. Because it's not about the answer, it's about
the outrage at you being wrong.
By George, I think you've got it.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/
Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
2021-06-03 18:06:39 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
Post by Dimensional Traveler
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
The objection, right now, is any pronoun that idenfies
gender at all in any way, because some people demand to be
able to change what gender they feel like any any time,
without having to inform anyone else of the change, and
without having ever, even once, hear the wrong one.
Such a person would do well to inform friends, co-workers,
and what not of what pronouns are currently preferred. Or to
attend events with the chosen pronouns listed under the name.
But then they couldn't be outraged and get angry with someone
for not using the correct pronoun whenever they wanted to!
It takes on the appearance of a trick question: no matter what
answer you offer, it's wrong. Because it's not about the answer,
it's about the outrage at you being wrong.
By George, I think you've got it.
I'm always right. I keep telling people that, and because I told
them, you know it's true.
--
Terry Austin

Proof that Alan Baker is a liar and a fool, and even stupider than
Lynn:
https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/stats/sw-border-migration
(May 2019 total for people arrested for entering the United States
illegally is over 132,000 for just the southwest border.)

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB
Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
2021-06-03 16:05:08 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
Post by Robert Woodward
In article
On Tuesday, June 1, 2021 at 9:30:03 PM UTC-4, Dorothy J
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Lynn McGuire
Dilbert: Anythey
https://dilbert.com/strip/2021-06-01
Oh yeah, we be changing the English language real good
now.
"Language drifts down time in a current of its own
making."
I foresee that "they" will have replaced all other
third-person pronouns, eliminating both gender and number,
by the end of this century, just as happened with "you,"
replacing all other second-person pronouns. I expect this
to happen. I also expect not to live to see it.
This is double plus ungood!
I don't suppose that you will live to see it either, so don't
worry about it.
But what about cases where individuals are discussed as part
of a group (with some references to the group and others to
the individuals)? New pronouns would need to be invented. It
would be simpler to invent an alternate singular first.
The objection, right now, is any pronoun that idenfies gender at
all in any way, because some people demand to be able to change
what gender they feel like any any time, without having to
inform anyone else of the change, and without having ever, even
once, hear the wrong one.
Such a person would do well to inform friends, co-workers, and
what not of what pronouns are currently preferred. Or to attend
events with the chosen pronouns listed under the name.
Which is something most people aren't overly annoyed by. But people
begin to dismiss the whole matter when the person _changes their
mind_ on a regular basis.
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
DunDraCon bought a set of little transparent stickers with
various choices of pronouns on them for DunDraCon 45. Some of
them even got used.
Conventions attract a particular subculture that has cultural norms
that are not . . . universal. In fact, it's a fairly insular
subculture, approaching the point of being cult-like (especially in
that one of the near universal aspects of a cult is to adopt
practices that isolate members from mainstream society).
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
If the current trend fails at effective communication, it will
alter course. If it succeeds, it will continue. No one's
personal opinion will alter this in any way.
Well, those of us who are young now (whom count me not among)
may live to see what happens.
Strictly speaking, the current shift towards very generic pronouns
are one of the things that happen when language doesn't meet
soccieties needs, so we're alrady seeing it in action.
--
Terry Austin

Proof that Alan Baker is a liar and a fool, and even stupider than
Lynn:
https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/stats/sw-border-migration
(May 2019 total for people arrested for entering the United States
illegally is over 132,000 for just the southwest border.)

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB
Kevrob
2021-06-02 20:40:33 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Robert Woodward
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by ***@gmail.com
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Lynn McGuire
Dilbert: Anythey
https://dilbert.com/strip/2021-06-01
Oh yeah, we be changing the English language real good now.
"Language drifts down time in a current of its own making."
I foresee that "they" will have replaced all other third-person
pronouns, eliminating both gender and number, by the end of this
century, just as happened with "you," replacing all other
second-person pronouns. I expect this to happen. I also expect
not to live to see it.
This is double plus ungood!
I don't suppose that you will live to see it either, so don't
worry about it.
But what about cases where individuals are discussed as part of a group
(with some references to the group and others to the individuals)? New
pronouns would need to be invented. It would be simpler to invent an
alternate singular first.
--
Aye. Thou wouldst think so.
--
Kevin R
Dorothy J Heydt
2021-06-02 23:38:13 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Kevrob
Post by Robert Woodward
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by ***@gmail.com
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Lynn McGuire
Dilbert: Anythey
https://dilbert.com/strip/2021-06-01
Oh yeah, we be changing the English language real good now.
"Language drifts down time in a current of its own making."
I foresee that "they" will have replaced all other third-person
pronouns, eliminating both gender and number, by the end of this
century, just as happened with "you," replacing all other
second-person pronouns. I expect this to happen. I also expect
not to live to see it.
This is double plus ungood!
I don't suppose that you will live to see it either, so don't
worry about it.
But what about cases where individuals are discussed as part of a group
(with some references to the group and others to the individuals)? New
pronouns would need to be invented. It would be simpler to invent an
alternate singular first.
--
Aye. Thou wouldst think so.
For my part, I can handle the archaic second person singular.
But keep in mind it's still in use in some dialects of English,
used in the case of a relationship intimate to some degree, OR to
one's inferiors (cf. Spanish, French, et cetera).

I point out the Yorkshireman saying to another, "Don't tha thou
me afore I thous thee!"

And while we're at it, I'll also point out the linguistic nugget
buried in the Appendices of _The Lord of the Rings._ The Westron
(which is uniformly translated into English) had both familiar
and formal second-singular pronouns, which in Gondor were used as
their equivalents were in Spanish, French, et cetera.

But in the Shire the custom was reversed, and the "familiar"
pronouns were used to strangers or superiors, and the "formal"
ones to one's intimates. Hence, when the Men of Minas Tirith
called Pippin _Ernil i Pheriannath_, it wasn't because he was the
son and heir of the Thane of the Shire. It was because he
thou-ed everybody, including Denethor.

James White's Hospital series had a couple of books featuring a
species so standoffish that they used neither pronouns nor names.
"With the patient's permission, the physician will now examine
the patient at close range."
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/
William Hyde
2021-06-03 21:00:24 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Kevrob
Post by Robert Woodward
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by ***@gmail.com
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Lynn McGuire
Dilbert: Anythey
https://dilbert.com/strip/2021-06-01
Oh yeah, we be changing the English language real good now.
"Language drifts down time in a current of its own making."
I foresee that "they" will have replaced all other third-person
pronouns, eliminating both gender and number, by the end of this
century, just as happened with "you," replacing all other
second-person pronouns. I expect this to happen. I also expect
not to live to see it.
This is double plus ungood!
I don't suppose that you will live to see it either, so don't
worry about it.
But what about cases where individuals are discussed as part of a group
(with some references to the group and others to the individuals)? New
pronouns would need to be invented. It would be simpler to invent an
alternate singular first.
--
Aye. Thou wouldst think so.
For my part, I can handle the archaic second person singular.
But keep in mind it's still in use in some dialects of English,
used in the case of a relationship intimate to some degree, OR to
one's inferiors (cf. Spanish, French, et cetera).
I point out the Yorkshireman saying to another, "Don't tha thou
me afore I thous thee!"
And while we're at it, I'll also point out the linguistic nugget
buried in the Appendices of _The Lord of the Rings._ The Westron
(which is uniformly translated into English) had both familiar
and formal second-singular pronouns, which in Gondor were used as
their equivalents were in Spanish, French, et cetera.
But in the Shire the custom was reversed, and the "familiar"
pronouns were used to strangers or superiors, and the "formal"
ones to one's intimates. Hence, when the Men of Minas Tirith
called Pippin _Ernil i Pheriannath_, it wasn't because he was the
son and heir of the Thane of the Shire. It was because he
thou-ed everybody, including Denethor.
James White's Hospital series had a couple of books featuring a
species so standoffish that they used neither pronouns nor names.
"With the patient's permission, the physician will now examine
the patient at close range."
In a mystery novel I read a few weeks ago, I ran across a really terrible use of "they".

Our narrator saw someone, and her mental language referred to that person as "they".

The person being referred to had a definite gender and no problems with it, and the narrator
nowhere else refers to any single person as "they".

The author simply didn't want the gender of the person revealed, as that would give away the solution to
the mystery. Or at least make it easy to solve for those who were paying attention.


William Hyde
Robert Woodward
2021-06-03 16:48:25 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Kevrob
Post by Robert Woodward
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by ***@gmail.com
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Lynn McGuire
Dilbert: Anythey
https://dilbert.com/strip/2021-06-01
Oh yeah, we be changing the English language real good now.
"Language drifts down time in a current of its own making."
I foresee that "they" will have replaced all other third-person
pronouns, eliminating both gender and number, by the end of this
century, just as happened with "you," replacing all other
second-person pronouns. I expect this to happen. I also expect
not to live to see it.
This is double plus ungood!
I don't suppose that you will live to see it either, so don't
worry about it.
But what about cases where individuals are discussed as part of a group
(with some references to the group and others to the individuals)? New
pronouns would need to be invented. It would be simpler to invent an
alternate singular first.
--
Aye. Thou wouldst think so.
We are certain.
--
"We have advanced to new and surprising levels of bafflement."
Imperial Auditor Miles Vorkosigan describes progress in _Komarr_.
—-----------------------------------------------------
Robert Woodward ***@drizzle.com
Dorothy J Heydt
2021-06-02 23:24:10 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Robert Woodward
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by ***@gmail.com
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Lynn McGuire
Dilbert: Anythey
https://dilbert.com/strip/2021-06-01
Oh yeah, we be changing the English language real good now.
"Language drifts down time in a current of its own making."
I foresee that "they" will have replaced all other third-person
pronouns, eliminating both gender and number, by the end of this
century, just as happened with "you," replacing all other
second-person pronouns. I expect this to happen. I also expect
not to live to see it.
This is double plus ungood!
I don't suppose that you will live to see it either, so don't
worry about it.
But what about cases where individuals are discussed as part of a group
(with some references to the group and others to the individuals)? New
pronouns would need to be invented. It would be simpler to invent an
alternate singular first.
Well, Graydon's Commonweal stories use "they" indiscriminately
for singular and plural. One can usually figure out what's meant
from context. There've been a couple hints that the pronouns
"he" and "she" are to be used only in the context of someone's
sex life, and one is strictly enjoined from discussing anybody's
sex life, except that in the Line there is to be no sex between
the ranks.

Almost no pronouns are used regarding Halt, even if it means repeating
Halt's name several times in a sentence.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/
Paul S Person
2021-06-03 15:45:19 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Wed, 02 Jun 2021 10:08:54 -0700, Robert Woodward
Post by Robert Woodward
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by ***@gmail.com
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Lynn McGuire
Dilbert: Anythey
https://dilbert.com/strip/2021-06-01
Oh yeah, we be changing the English language real good now.
"Language drifts down time in a current of its own making."
I foresee that "they" will have replaced all other third-person
pronouns, eliminating both gender and number, by the end of this
century, just as happened with "you," replacing all other
second-person pronouns. I expect this to happen. I also expect
not to live to see it.
This is double plus ungood!
I don't suppose that you will live to see it either, so don't
worry about it.
But what about cases where individuals are discussed as part of a group
(with some references to the group and others to the individuals)? New
pronouns would need to be invented. It would be simpler to invent an
alternate singular first.
you ... you-all
they ... they-all

problem solved!
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."
Dorothy J Heydt
2021-06-03 17:25:45 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Paul S Person
On Wed, 02 Jun 2021 10:08:54 -0700, Robert Woodward
Post by Robert Woodward
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by ***@gmail.com
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Lynn McGuire
Dilbert: Anythey
https://dilbert.com/strip/2021-06-01
Oh yeah, we be changing the English language real good now.
"Language drifts down time in a current of its own making."
I foresee that "they" will have replaced all other third-person
pronouns, eliminating both gender and number, by the end of this
century, just as happened with "you," replacing all other
second-person pronouns. I expect this to happen. I also expect
not to live to see it.
This is double plus ungood!
I don't suppose that you will live to see it either, so don't
worry about it.
But what about cases where individuals are discussed as part of a group
(with some references to the group and others to the individuals)? New
pronouns would need to be invented. It would be simpler to invent an
alternate singular first.
you ... you-all
they ... they-all
problem solved!
Yes, that would work. It might even happen, maybe.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/
Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
2021-06-03 18:08:22 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Paul S Person
On Wed, 02 Jun 2021 10:08:54 -0700, Robert Woodward
Post by Robert Woodward
In article
On Tuesday, June 1, 2021 at 9:30:03 PM UTC-4, Dorothy J
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Lynn McGuire
Dilbert: Anythey
https://dilbert.com/strip/2021-06-01
Oh yeah, we be changing the English language real good
now.
"Language drifts down time in a current of its own
making."
I foresee that "they" will have replaced all other
third-person pronouns, eliminating both gender and number,
by the end of this century, just as happened with "you,"
replacing all other second-person pronouns. I expect this
to happen. I also expect not to live to see it.
This is double plus ungood!
I don't suppose that you will live to see it either, so don't
worry about it.
But what about cases where individuals are discussed as part of
a group (with some references to the group and others to the
individuals)? New pronouns would need to be invented. It would
be simpler to invent an alternate singular first.
you ... you-all
they ... they-all
problem solved!
Yes, that would work. It might even happen, maybe.
In places where you-all, or y'all, or all y'all, or all y'all all
(yes, I've heard them all), or any other variation thereof, are
commonly used, I wouldn't expect much in the way of workness. Quite
the opposite, in fact.
--
Terry Austin

Proof that Alan Baker is a liar and a fool, and even stupider than
Lynn:
https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/stats/sw-border-migration
(May 2019 total for people arrested for entering the United States
illegally is over 132,000 for just the southwest border.)

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB
Dorothy J Heydt
2021-06-04 17:11:24 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Thu, 03 Jun 2021 11:08:22 -0700, Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Paul S Person
On Wed, 02 Jun 2021 10:08:54 -0700, Robert Woodward
Post by Robert Woodward
In article
On Tuesday, June 1, 2021 at 9:30:03 PM UTC-4, Dorothy J
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Lynn McGuire
Dilbert: Anythey
https://dilbert.com/strip/2021-06-01
Oh yeah, we be changing the English language real good now.
"Language drifts down time in a current of its own
making."
I foresee that "they" will have replaced all other
third-person pronouns, eliminating both gender and number,
by the end of this century, just as happened with "you,"
replacing all other second-person pronouns. I expect this
to happen. I also expect not to live to see it.
This is double plus ungood!
I don't suppose that you will live to see it either, so don't
worry about it.
But what about cases where individuals are discussed as part of
a group (with some references to the group and others to the
individuals)? New pronouns would need to be invented. It would
be simpler to invent an alternate singular first.
you ... you-all
they ... they-all
problem solved!
Yes, that would work. It might even happen, maybe.
In places where you-all, or y'all, or all y'all, or all y'all all
(yes, I've heard them all), or any other variation thereof, are
commonly used, I wouldn't expect much in the way of workness. Quite
the opposite, in fact.
It works in the linguistic sub-cluster where it's worked for
generations. Note that I've seen "all you-all" explained as
"*all* of you-all, not just some of you-all." In large extended
families, this could be a useful distinction. E.g., a young
adult who is unmarried inviting other unmarried adults in the
group, but leaving out those who have young children.
Well then, how about
we -- we-uns
Well, this would give English a distinction it (AFAIK) has never
had, between we-inclusive ("we, including you") and we-exclusive
("we, not including you").
you -- you-uns
Leaving unmodified "you" to be a singular pronoun. That could
happen too. Yes, linguistic changes can change back on occsion.
(Consider the trend in Swedish to stop using the plural-used-as-
singular _ni_; I understand that there were buttons worn back in
the sixties that translated as "I don't use _ni_ and I hope
thou dost not either.")
they -- they-uns
Same thing. Turning unmodified "they" into a singular. Could
happen, or not.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/
Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
2021-06-04 18:33:59 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
On Thu, 03 Jun 2021 11:08:22 -0700, Jibini Kula Tumbili
Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Paul S Person
On Wed, 02 Jun 2021 10:08:54 -0700, Robert Woodward
Post by Robert Woodward
In article
On Tuesday, June 1, 2021 at 9:30:03 PM UTC-4, Dorothy J
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Lynn McGuire
Dilbert: Anythey
https://dilbert.com/strip/2021-06-01
Oh yeah, we be changing the English language real good now.
I quote the 20th-century poet and linguist Edward
"Language drifts down time in a current of its own
making."
I foresee that "they" will have replaced all other
third-person pronouns, eliminating both gender and
number, by the end of this century, just as happened
with "you," replacing all other second-person pronouns.
I expect this to happen. I also expect not to live to
see it.
This is double plus ungood!
I don't suppose that you will live to see it either, so
don't worry about it.
But what about cases where individuals are discussed as part
of a group (with some references to the group and others to
the individuals)? New pronouns would need to be invented. It
would be simpler to invent an alternate singular first.
you ... you-all
they ... they-all
problem solved!
Yes, that would work. It might even happen, maybe.
In places where you-all, or y'all, or all y'all, or all y'all
all (yes, I've heard them all), or any other variation thereof,
are commonly used, I wouldn't expect much in the way of
workness. Quite the opposite, in fact.
It works in the linguistic sub-cluster where it's worked for
generations. Note that I've seen "all you-all" explained as
"*all* of you-all, not just some of you-all." In large extended
families, this could be a useful distinction. E.g., a young
adult who is unmarried inviting other unmarried adults in the
group, but leaving out those who have young children.
Well then, how about
we -- we-uns
Well, this would give English a distinction it (AFAIK) has never
had, between we-inclusive ("we, including you") and we-exclusive
("we, not including you").
you -- you-uns
Leaving unmodified "you" to be a singular pronoun. That could
happen too. Yes, linguistic changes can change back on occsion.
(Consider the trend in Swedish to stop using the plural-used-as-
singular _ni_; I understand that there were buttons worn back in
the sixties that translated as "I don't use _ni_ and I hope
thou dost not either.")
Usage varies regionally. The usage I'm most familiar with is y'all
is second person singular, and all y'all is second person plural,
but there are many other uses of the terms.
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
they -- they-uns
Same thing. Turning unmodified "they" into a singular. Could
happen, or not.
The third person version sill conveys less raw data than gender
specific versions. Which, if it isn't a problem, doesn't matter,
and if it is, will not get widespread adoption.
--
Terry Austin

Proof that Alan Baker is a liar and a fool, and even stupider than
Lynn:
https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/stats/sw-border-migration
(May 2019 total for people arrested for entering the United States
illegally is over 132,000 for just the southwest border.)

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB
John Halpenny
2021-06-04 22:24:10 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
On Thu, 03 Jun 2021 11:08:22 -0700, Jibini Kula Tumbili
Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
Post by Paul S Person
On Wed, 02 Jun 2021 10:08:54 -0700, Robert Woodward
Post by Robert Woodward
In article
Post by ***@gmail.com
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Lynn McGuire
Dilbert: Anythey
https://dilbert.com/strip/2021-06-01
Oh yeah, we be changing the English language real good now.
I quote the 20th-century poet and linguist Edward
"Language drifts down time in a current of its own
making."
I foresee that "they" will have replaced all other
third-person pronouns, eliminating both gender and
number, by the end of this century, just as happened
with "you," replacing all other second-person pronouns.
I expect this to happen. I also expect not to live to
see it.
This is double plus ungood!
I don't suppose that you will live to see it either, so
don't worry about it.
But what about cases where individuals are discussed as part
of a group (with some references to the group and others to
the individuals)? New pronouns would need to be invented. It
would be simpler to invent an alternate singular first.
you ... you-all
they ... they-all
problem solved!
Yes, that would work. It might even happen, maybe.
In places where you-all, or y'all, or all y'all, or all y'all
all (yes, I've heard them all), or any other variation thereof,
are commonly used, I wouldn't expect much in the way of
workness. Quite the opposite, in fact.
It works in the linguistic sub-cluster where it's worked for
generations. Note that I've seen "all you-all" explained as
"*all* of you-all, not just some of you-all." In large extended
families, this could be a useful distinction. E.g., a young
adult who is unmarried inviting other unmarried adults in the
group, but leaving out those who have young children.
Well then, how about
we -- we-uns
Well, this would give English a distinction it (AFAIK) has never
had, between we-inclusive ("we, including you") and we-exclusive
("we, not including you").
you -- you-uns
Leaving unmodified "you" to be a singular pronoun. That could
happen too. Yes, linguistic changes can change back on occsion.
(Consider the trend in Swedish to stop using the plural-used-as-
singular _ni_; I understand that there were buttons worn back in
the sixties that translated as "I don't use _ni_ and I hope
thou dost not either.")
Usage varies regionally. The usage I'm most familiar with is y'all
is second person singular, and all y'all is second person plural,
but there are many other uses of the terms.
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
they -- they-uns
Same thing. Turning unmodified "they" into a singular. Could
happen, or not.
The third person version sill conveys less raw data than gender
specific versions. Which, if it isn't a problem, doesn't matter,
and if it is, will not get widespread adoption.
--
When I was in Texas, the group of older men I was with used "you all" the way the French use "vous", for anyone senior to them . "You" was only used for their buddies.

John

John
Dorothy J Heydt
2021-06-05 00:51:03 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by John Halpenny
--
When I was in Texas, the group of older men I was with used "you all"
the way the French use "vous", for anyone senior to them . "You" was
only used for their buddies.
How interesting.

So the Texan equivalent of the Yorkshire "Don't tha thou me afore
I thous thee!" would be something on the order of "Don't you you
me before I you you!"
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/
Kevrob
2021-06-05 03:24:52 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by John Halpenny
--
When I was in Texas, the group of older men I was with used "you all"
the way the French use "vous", for anyone senior to them . "You" was
only used for their buddies.
How interesting.
So the Texan equivalent of the Yorkshire "Don't tha thou me afore
I thous thee!" would be something on the order of "Don't you you
me before I you you!"
--
In the New Yawk Metro area we have "youse" and "youse guys."
Also, "alla youse," but that's just dialect for "all of you."

From a previous discussion:

https://groups.google.com/g/rec.arts.sf.written/c/w2rSSY3S044/m/WmBwTNSACAAJ

***********************************************************
I would sometimes call several of my sisters, all together, "you
gals," which they HATED. "You guys" was fine with them, however.
1960s-70s, suburban Long Island, NY, parents from Brooklyn and Queens.

"Youse guys" was understood, but deemed to be uncouth at my
elementary school, by the teaching sisters.

Additional:

People, or folks, or somebodies or other, attempting to
resist "you guys:"

https://www.theatlantic.com/family/archive/2018/08/guys-gender-neutral/568231/

*******************************************************************************
--
Kevin R
Joy Beeson
2021-06-07 02:05:16 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
I foresee that "they" will have replaced all other third-person
pronouns, eliminating both gender and number, by the end of this
century, just as happened with "you," replacing all other
second-person pronouns. I expect this to happen. I also expect
not to live to see it.
And Nehemiah Scudder is chortling and rubbing his hands.
--
Joy Beeson
joy beeson at centurylink dot net
Dorothy J Heydt
2021-06-07 02:38:35 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Joy Beeson
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
I foresee that "they" will have replaced all other third-person
pronouns, eliminating both gender and number, by the end of this
century, just as happened with "you," replacing all other
second-person pronouns. I expect this to happen. I also expect
not to live to see it.
And Nehemiah Scudder is chortling and rubbing his hands.
What's the connection?
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/
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