Discussion:
Over the Hedge: the two gross dudes
(too old to reply)
Lynn McGuire
2020-04-04 21:13:32 UTC
Permalink
Over the Hedge: the two gross dudes
https://www.gocomics.com/overthehedge/2020/04/04

I can't feel my spleen either.

Lynn
Dorothy J Heydt
2020-04-04 22:10:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lynn McGuire
Over the Hedge: the two gross dudes
https://www.gocomics.com/overthehedge/2020/04/04
I can't feel my spleen either.
Good thing. If you could, it would probably be diseased and
hurting like hell. (I can remember the ten days when I could
feel my pancreas.)
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/
Jaimie Vandenbergh
2020-04-05 23:31:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Lynn McGuire
Over the Hedge: the two gross dudes
https://www.gocomics.com/overthehedge/2020/04/04
I can't feel my spleen either.
Good thing. If you could, it would probably be diseased and
hurting like hell. (I can remember the ten days when I could
feel my pancreas.)
Yeah. On occasions I spend eight hours or so able to feel my right ureter.
Four hours of that are excruciating.

Scar tissue from old kidney stone attacks, which sometimes flares up if I
don't get enough fluid through me.

Cheers - Jaimie
--
"I'd tried caffeine a few times; it made me believe I was focused and
energetic, but it turned my judgment to shit. Widespread use of
caffeine explains a lot about the twentieth century."
- "Distress", Greg Egan
Dorothy J Heydt
2020-04-05 23:52:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jaimie Vandenbergh
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Lynn McGuire
Over the Hedge: the two gross dudes
https://www.gocomics.com/overthehedge/2020/04/04
I can't feel my spleen either.
Good thing. If you could, it would probably be diseased and
hurting like hell. (I can remember the ten days when I could
feel my pancreas.)
Yeah. On occasions I spend eight hours or so able to feel my right ureter.
Four hours of that are excruciating.
Scar tissue from old kidney stone attacks, which sometimes flares up if I
don't get enough fluid through me.
Go drink some water.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/
Jaimie Vandenbergh
2020-04-06 13:49:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Jaimie Vandenbergh
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Lynn McGuire
Over the Hedge: the two gross dudes
https://www.gocomics.com/overthehedge/2020/04/04
I can't feel my spleen either.
Good thing. If you could, it would probably be diseased and
hurting like hell. (I can remember the ten days when I could
feel my pancreas.)
Yeah. On occasions I spend eight hours or so able to feel my right ureter.
Four hours of that are excruciating.
Scar tissue from old kidney stone attacks, which sometimes flares up if I
don't get enough fluid through me.
Go drink some water.
I have a pint of green tea to my left hand. Almost all the time. Big mugs and
big glasses are my cunning trick to keep the fluid flowing!

Cheers - Jaimie
--
..there should be a feature added to the RAID 0 standard stating that
if anyone selects RAID 0 as an option, they must type in, "I know what
I am doing and that it is wrong," before they can proceed.
- Archangel Mychael, ArsTechnica comments
Dorothy J Heydt
2020-04-06 14:46:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jaimie Vandenbergh
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Jaimie Vandenbergh
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Lynn McGuire
Over the Hedge: the two gross dudes
https://www.gocomics.com/overthehedge/2020/04/04
I can't feel my spleen either.
Good thing. If you could, it would probably be diseased and
hurting like hell. (I can remember the ten days when I could
feel my pancreas.)
Yeah. On occasions I spend eight hours or so able to feel my right ureter.
Four hours of that are excruciating.
Scar tissue from old kidney stone attacks, which sometimes flares up if I
don't get enough fluid through me.
Go drink some water.
I have a pint of green tea to my left hand. Almost all the time. Big mugs and
big glasses are my cunning trick to keep the fluid flowing!
Good.

The only time I've ever been seriously dehydrated was ... maybe
twenty years ago? I had some kind of bug [its identity still
unknown, at least to me] and felt like crud, so Hal took me in to
the doctor's office. It was a group of partners, and I saw whichever
of the doctors was available. He had me get some blood tests and
sent me home to rest.

Few days later, I still felt like crud, so I went in again, and a
different doctor told me I was dehydrated and to go home and
drink lots of water. I mentioned to him that the previous doctor
had had some blood tests done, so the doctor of the day went to
look at the results. I think he may have been looking at my
white-cell count, when he shouted, "TEN THOUSAND!"

He prescribed some antibiotics and some more tests, so we went to
the building next door to get the tests done. In addition to
feeling like crud, I must have looked like it too, for when she'd
collected all the necessary fluids the kindly technician said,
"All right, dear, I'm done, your son can take you home now."

Hal is only seven years younger than I am, and I usually look
younger than I am. I must have really looked like crud. I went
home and drank lots of water, and I got better.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/
p***@hotmail.com
2020-04-06 19:16:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Jaimie Vandenbergh
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Jaimie Vandenbergh
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Lynn McGuire
Over the Hedge: the two gross dudes
https://www.gocomics.com/overthehedge/2020/04/04
I can't feel my spleen either.
Good thing. If you could, it would probably be diseased and
hurting like hell. (I can remember the ten days when I could
feel my pancreas.)
Yeah. On occasions I spend eight hours or so able to feel my right ureter.
Four hours of that are excruciating.
Scar tissue from old kidney stone attacks, which sometimes flares up if I
don't get enough fluid through me.
Go drink some water.
I have a pint of green tea to my left hand. Almost all the time. Big mugs and
big glasses are my cunning trick to keep the fluid flowing!
Good.
The only time I've ever been seriously dehydrated was ... maybe
twenty years ago? I had some kind of bug [its identity still
unknown, at least to me] and felt like crud, so Hal took me in to
the doctor's office. It was a group of partners, and I saw whichever
of the doctors was available. He had me get some blood tests and
sent me home to rest.
Few days later, I still felt like crud, so I went in again, and a
different doctor told me I was dehydrated and to go home and
drink lots of water. I mentioned to him that the previous doctor
had had some blood tests done, so the doctor of the day went to
look at the results. I think he may have been looking at my
white-cell count, when he shouted, "TEN THOUSAND!"
He prescribed some antibiotics and some more tests, so we went to
the building next door to get the tests done. In addition to
feeling like crud, I must have looked like it too, for when she'd
collected all the necessary fluids the kindly technician said,
"All right, dear, I'm done, your son can take you home now."
Hal is only seven years younger than I am, and I usually look
younger than I am. I must have really looked like crud. I went
home and drank lots of water, and I got better.
Your mention of drinking lots of water triggered a memory of
the movie _Who Framed Roger Rabbit_. This quote is from a
_Washington Post_ article about dubbing movies into German:

read:https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/lifestyle/style/1992/03/01/lost-in-translation/d39166d1-5e95-4c3b-8b99-b3e666cc6d0b/

The writers also have to figure out what to do with references that only
Americans could understand.

Riedel, who also edits scripts into German, routinely has to make up plays
on words that try to approximate the original meaning. In the cartoon-live
action feature "Who Framed Roger Rabbit," Eddie Valiant sends his girlfriend
to check the probate records.

"Ah, my uncle had probate," Roger says. "He had to stay in bed and drink
lots of water."

"Prostate" in German is Prostata. So far, so good. But "probate" is
Erbschein. Not funny.

"I didn't know what to do," Riedel says. "I sat there for an hour. Finally,
I found something close. I did a word play on inspizieren {inspect} and
infizieren {infect}."

I would like to see a word-for-word translation of the dubbed version of
that scene.

Peter Wezeman
anti-social Darwinist
Paul S Person
2020-04-07 17:18:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by p***@hotmail.com
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Jaimie Vandenbergh
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Jaimie Vandenbergh
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Lynn McGuire
Over the Hedge: the two gross dudes
https://www.gocomics.com/overthehedge/2020/04/04
I can't feel my spleen either.
Good thing. If you could, it would probably be diseased and
hurting like hell. (I can remember the ten days when I could
feel my pancreas.)
Yeah. On occasions I spend eight hours or so able to feel my right ureter.
Four hours of that are excruciating.
Scar tissue from old kidney stone attacks, which sometimes flares up if I
don't get enough fluid through me.
Go drink some water.
I have a pint of green tea to my left hand. Almost all the time. Big mugs and
big glasses are my cunning trick to keep the fluid flowing!
Good.
The only time I've ever been seriously dehydrated was ... maybe
twenty years ago? I had some kind of bug [its identity still
unknown, at least to me] and felt like crud, so Hal took me in to
the doctor's office. It was a group of partners, and I saw whichever
of the doctors was available. He had me get some blood tests and
sent me home to rest.
Few days later, I still felt like crud, so I went in again, and a
different doctor told me I was dehydrated and to go home and
drink lots of water. I mentioned to him that the previous doctor
had had some blood tests done, so the doctor of the day went to
look at the results. I think he may have been looking at my
white-cell count, when he shouted, "TEN THOUSAND!"
He prescribed some antibiotics and some more tests, so we went to
the building next door to get the tests done. In addition to
feeling like crud, I must have looked like it too, for when she'd
collected all the necessary fluids the kindly technician said,
"All right, dear, I'm done, your son can take you home now."
Hal is only seven years younger than I am, and I usually look
younger than I am. I must have really looked like crud. I went
home and drank lots of water, and I got better.
Your mention of drinking lots of water triggered a memory of
the movie _Who Framed Roger Rabbit_. This quote is from a
read:https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/lifestyle/style/1992/03/01/lost-in-translation/d39166d1-5e95-4c3b-8b99-b3e666cc6d0b/
The writers also have to figure out what to do with references that only
Americans could understand.
Riedel, who also edits scripts into German, routinely has to make up plays
on words that try to approximate the original meaning. In the cartoon-live
action feature "Who Framed Roger Rabbit," Eddie Valiant sends his girlfriend
to check the probate records.
"Ah, my uncle had probate," Roger says. "He had to stay in bed and drink
lots of water."
And take /really big pills/.
Post by p***@hotmail.com
"Prostate" in German is Prostata. So far, so good. But "probate" is
Erbschein. Not funny.
"I didn't know what to do," Riedel says. "I sat there for an hour. Finally,
I found something close. I did a word play on inspizieren {inspect} and
infizieren {infect}."
I would like to see a word-for-word translation of the dubbed version of
that scene.
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."
David Johnston
2020-04-07 19:51:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by p***@hotmail.com
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Jaimie Vandenbergh
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Jaimie Vandenbergh
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Lynn McGuire
Over the Hedge: the two gross dudes
https://www.gocomics.com/overthehedge/2020/04/04
I can't feel my spleen either.
Good thing. If you could, it would probably be diseased and
hurting like hell. (I can remember the ten days when I could
feel my pancreas.)
Yeah. On occasions I spend eight hours or so able to feel my right ureter.
Four hours of that are excruciating.
Scar tissue from old kidney stone attacks, which sometimes flares up if I
don't get enough fluid through me.
Go drink some water.
I have a pint of green tea to my left hand. Almost all the time. Big mugs and
big glasses are my cunning trick to keep the fluid flowing!
Good.
The only time I've ever been seriously dehydrated was ... maybe
twenty years ago? I had some kind of bug [its identity still
unknown, at least to me] and felt like crud, so Hal took me in to
the doctor's office. It was a group of partners, and I saw whichever
of the doctors was available. He had me get some blood tests and
sent me home to rest.
Few days later, I still felt like crud, so I went in again, and a
different doctor told me I was dehydrated and to go home and
drink lots of water. I mentioned to him that the previous doctor
had had some blood tests done, so the doctor of the day went to
look at the results. I think he may have been looking at my
white-cell count, when he shouted, "TEN THOUSAND!"
He prescribed some antibiotics and some more tests, so we went to
the building next door to get the tests done. In addition to
feeling like crud, I must have looked like it too, for when she'd
collected all the necessary fluids the kindly technician said,
"All right, dear, I'm done, your son can take you home now."
Hal is only seven years younger than I am, and I usually look
younger than I am. I must have really looked like crud. I went
home and drank lots of water, and I got better.
Your mention of drinking lots of water triggered a memory of
the movie _Who Framed Roger Rabbit_. This quote is from a
read:https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/lifestyle/style/1992/03/01/lost-in-translation/d39166d1-5e95-4c3b-8b99-b3e666cc6d0b/
The writers also have to figure out what to do with references that only
Americans could understand.
Riedel, who also edits scripts into German, routinely has to make up plays
on words that try to approximate the original meaning. In the cartoon-live
action feature "Who Framed Roger Rabbit," Eddie Valiant sends his girlfriend
to check the probate records.
"Ah, my uncle had probate," Roger says. "He had to stay in bed and drink
lots of water."
"Prostate" in German is Prostata. So far, so good. But "probate" is
Erbschein. Not funny.
"I didn't know what to do," Riedel says. "I sat there for an hour. Finally,
I found something close. I did a word play on inspizieren {inspect} and
infizieren {infect}."
I would like to see a word-for-word translation of the dubbed version of
that scene.
Watch the french versions of the songs for Frozen sometime. It's
interesting how they change the characterization with the rephrasing.
Paul S Person
2020-04-08 17:38:47 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 7 Apr 2020 13:51:21 -0600, David Johnston
Post by David Johnston
Post by p***@hotmail.com
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Jaimie Vandenbergh
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Jaimie Vandenbergh
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Lynn McGuire
Over the Hedge: the two gross dudes
https://www.gocomics.com/overthehedge/2020/04/04
I can't feel my spleen either.
Good thing. If you could, it would probably be diseased and
hurting like hell. (I can remember the ten days when I could
feel my pancreas.)
Yeah. On occasions I spend eight hours or so able to feel my right ureter.
Four hours of that are excruciating.
Scar tissue from old kidney stone attacks, which sometimes flares up if I
don't get enough fluid through me.
Go drink some water.
I have a pint of green tea to my left hand. Almost all the time. Big mugs and
big glasses are my cunning trick to keep the fluid flowing!
Good.
The only time I've ever been seriously dehydrated was ... maybe
twenty years ago? I had some kind of bug [its identity still
unknown, at least to me] and felt like crud, so Hal took me in to
the doctor's office. It was a group of partners, and I saw whichever
of the doctors was available. He had me get some blood tests and
sent me home to rest.
Few days later, I still felt like crud, so I went in again, and a
different doctor told me I was dehydrated and to go home and
drink lots of water. I mentioned to him that the previous doctor
had had some blood tests done, so the doctor of the day went to
look at the results. I think he may have been looking at my
white-cell count, when he shouted, "TEN THOUSAND!"
He prescribed some antibiotics and some more tests, so we went to
the building next door to get the tests done. In addition to
feeling like crud, I must have looked like it too, for when she'd
collected all the necessary fluids the kindly technician said,
"All right, dear, I'm done, your son can take you home now."
Hal is only seven years younger than I am, and I usually look
younger than I am. I must have really looked like crud. I went
home and drank lots of water, and I got better.
Your mention of drinking lots of water triggered a memory of
the movie _Who Framed Roger Rabbit_. This quote is from a
read:https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/lifestyle/style/1992/03/01/lost-in-translation/d39166d1-5e95-4c3b-8b99-b3e666cc6d0b/
The writers also have to figure out what to do with references that only
Americans could understand.
Riedel, who also edits scripts into German, routinely has to make up plays
on words that try to approximate the original meaning. In the cartoon-live
action feature "Who Framed Roger Rabbit," Eddie Valiant sends his girlfriend
to check the probate records.
"Ah, my uncle had probate," Roger says. "He had to stay in bed and drink
lots of water."
"Prostate" in German is Prostata. So far, so good. But "probate" is
Erbschein. Not funny.
"I didn't know what to do," Riedel says. "I sat there for an hour. Finally,
I found something close. I did a word play on inspizieren {inspect} and
infizieren {infect}."
I would like to see a word-for-word translation of the dubbed version of
that scene.
Watch the french versions of the songs for Frozen sometime. It's
interesting how they change the characterization with the rephrasing.
The DVD for /Spirited Away/ had an allegedly-special feature in which
the 20-something translators revealed to interesting facts:

1. In the English version, the "good" and "bad" sister are switched
(they said it, I have no idea).

2. When the "seal" came out, they thought it was the black thing,
because it looked like one. They had never heard of "sealing a
document"!

With translators like that, is it any wonder I watch my Miyazaki in
Japanese and read the subtitles?
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."
Chrysi Cat
2020-04-09 09:43:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paul S Person
On Tue, 7 Apr 2020 13:51:21 -0600, David Johnston
Post by David Johnston
Post by p***@hotmail.com
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Jaimie Vandenbergh
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Jaimie Vandenbergh
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Lynn McGuire
Over the Hedge: the two gross dudes
https://www.gocomics.com/overthehedge/2020/04/04
I can't feel my spleen either.
Good thing. If you could, it would probably be diseased and
hurting like hell. (I can remember the ten days when I could
feel my pancreas.)
Yeah. On occasions I spend eight hours or so able to feel my right ureter.
Four hours of that are excruciating.
Scar tissue from old kidney stone attacks, which sometimes flares up if I
don't get enough fluid through me.
Go drink some water.
I have a pint of green tea to my left hand. Almost all the time. Big mugs and
big glasses are my cunning trick to keep the fluid flowing!
Good.
The only time I've ever been seriously dehydrated was ... maybe
twenty years ago? I had some kind of bug [its identity still
unknown, at least to me] and felt like crud, so Hal took me in to
the doctor's office. It was a group of partners, and I saw whichever
of the doctors was available. He had me get some blood tests and
sent me home to rest.
Few days later, I still felt like crud, so I went in again, and a
different doctor told me I was dehydrated and to go home and
drink lots of water. I mentioned to him that the previous doctor
had had some blood tests done, so the doctor of the day went to
look at the results. I think he may have been looking at my
white-cell count, when he shouted, "TEN THOUSAND!"
He prescribed some antibiotics and some more tests, so we went to
the building next door to get the tests done. In addition to
feeling like crud, I must have looked like it too, for when she'd
collected all the necessary fluids the kindly technician said,
"All right, dear, I'm done, your son can take you home now."
Hal is only seven years younger than I am, and I usually look
younger than I am. I must have really looked like crud. I went
home and drank lots of water, and I got better.
Your mention of drinking lots of water triggered a memory of
the movie _Who Framed Roger Rabbit_. This quote is from a
read:https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/lifestyle/style/1992/03/01/lost-in-translation/d39166d1-5e95-4c3b-8b99-b3e666cc6d0b/
The writers also have to figure out what to do with references that only
Americans could understand.
Riedel, who also edits scripts into German, routinely has to make up plays
on words that try to approximate the original meaning. In the cartoon-live
action feature "Who Framed Roger Rabbit," Eddie Valiant sends his girlfriend
to check the probate records.
"Ah, my uncle had probate," Roger says. "He had to stay in bed and drink
lots of water."
"Prostate" in German is Prostata. So far, so good. But "probate" is
Erbschein. Not funny.
"I didn't know what to do," Riedel says. "I sat there for an hour. Finally,
I found something close. I did a word play on inspizieren {inspect} and
infizieren {infect}."
I would like to see a word-for-word translation of the dubbed version of
that scene.
Watch the french versions of the songs for Frozen sometime. It's
interesting how they change the characterization with the rephrasing.
The DVD for /Spirited Away/ had an allegedly-special feature in which
1. In the English version, the "good" and "bad" sister are switched
(they said it, I have no idea).
2. When the "seal" came out, they thought it was the black thing,
because it looked like one. They had never heard of "sealing a
document"!
With translators like that, is it any wonder I watch my Miyazaki in
Japanese and read the subtitles?
To be fair, half of all people of any nationality born in 1982 would
have no idea what "sealing a document" is.

I think more of my age-peers (I'm about the same age as the translators,
and graduated HS in '95) _didn't_ understand the line in "Puff, the
Magic Dragon"--which remember was still very _much_ making the
"children's song" rounds in '85, than did, and wondered why you'd ever
be waxing a ceiling! Didn't help that since it never showed up in, say,
an "Amelia Bedelia" book, we had no way of knowing we had the wrong
homophone until we stumbled across mention of a wax-sealed document
sometime deep into our college classes, and usually by means of a
history class they could legitimately never have even audited. This
isn't a "gaijin screw-up"; this is a "too young screw-up", unless I'm
very mistaken.
--
Chrysi Cat
1/2 anthrocat, nearly 1/2 anthrofox, all magical
Transgoddess, quick to anger.
Call me Chrysi or call me Kat, I'll respond to either!
Kevrob
2020-04-09 12:04:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chrysi Cat
To be fair, half of all people of any nationality born in 1982 would
have no idea what "sealing a document" is.
I think more of my age-peers (I'm about the same age as the translators,
and graduated HS in '95) _didn't_ understand the line in "Puff, the
Magic Dragon"--which remember was still very _much_ making the
"children's song" rounds in '85, than did, and wondered why you'd ever
be waxing a ceiling! Didn't help that since it never showed up in, say,
an "Amelia Bedelia" book, we had no way of knowing we had the wrong
homophone until we stumbled across mention of a wax-sealed document
sometime deep into our college classes, and usually by means of a
history class they could legitimately never have even audited. This
isn't a "gaijin screw-up"; this is a "too young screw-up", unless I'm
very mistaken.
When I was a kid I watched the film made from Twain's
"The Prince and the Pauper."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prince_and_the_Pauper

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Prince_and_the_Pauper_(1937_film)



A plot point revolves around The Great Seal of England.

The "Errol Flynn version" is only one of several that have
been filmed. Besides SF, I loved costume dramas with
action and daring-do. Seals on documents and letters
came up often.

Of course, I first heard "Puff" in the 60s, as it was
released just after I turned 6. "Sealing wax" caused
no problems, but if a child born a quarter century later
didn't care for stories about "the olden days," I could
see how they might be confused.

In Jackson's "The Fellowship of The Ring," Gandalf is
shown sealing an envelope* containing the One Ring with
wax.

* And isn't that an anachronism? Did the Elves have Staples?

Kevin R
Dorothy J Heydt
2020-04-09 15:33:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kevrob
Post by Chrysi Cat
To be fair, half of all people of any nationality born in 1982 would
have no idea what "sealing a document" is.
I think more of my age-peers (I'm about the same age as the translators,
and graduated HS in '95) _didn't_ understand the line in "Puff, the
Magic Dragon"--which remember was still very _much_ making the
"children's song" rounds in '85, than did, and wondered why you'd ever
be waxing a ceiling! Didn't help that since it never showed up in, say,
an "Amelia Bedelia" book, we had no way of knowing we had the wrong
homophone until we stumbled across mention of a wax-sealed document
sometime deep into our college classes, and usually by means of a
history class they could legitimately never have even audited. This
isn't a "gaijin screw-up"; this is a "too young screw-up", unless I'm
very mistaken.
When I was a kid I watched the film made from Twain's
"The Prince and the Pauper."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prince_and_the_Pauper
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Prince_and_the_Pauper_(1937_film)
http://youtu.be/VYSkvRfqyw4
A plot point revolves around The Great Seal of England.
The "Errol Flynn version" is only one of several that have
been filmed. Besides SF, I loved costume dramas with
action and daring-do. Seals on documents and letters
came up often.
Of course, I first heard "Puff" in the 60s, as it was
released just after I turned 6. "Sealing wax" caused
no problems, but if a child born a quarter century later
didn't care for stories about "the olden days," I could
see how they might be confused.
And if they'd read _Alice_ or had it read to them, would they
understand the reference to "shoes and ships and sealing wax"?

I remember the preface to the edition of _Alice_ that I had as a
child, mentioning the caterpillar with the hookah, "but if you
had never seen a hookah and very few caterpillars, you might
think that that was what they usually did." Though the Tenniel
illustration is reasonably informative.
Post by Kevrob
In Jackson's "The Fellowship of The Ring," Gandalf is
shown sealing an envelope* containing the One Ring with
wax.
Now wait a minute. Gandalf never had his hands on the Ring until
he borrowed it from Frodo to throw it into the fire.

Perhaps you meant "sealing an envelope containing a message
concerning the Ring"?
Post by Kevrob
* And isn't that an anachronism? Did the Elves have Staples?
Believe me or believe me not, envelopes (and stationery stores
where you could buy them) existed before Staples.

On the other hand, I don't know when the use of envelopes to
contain letters came in. Before that, the letter itself would
have been folded up and the wax seal applied to keep it from
being opened by unauthorized personnel in transit.

Here's some comments on both seals (including before wax seals,
which depended on the availability of paper) and envelopes.

https://quilllondon.com/blogs/news/beginners-guide-to-history-of-wax-seals#
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/
Kevrob
2020-04-09 16:44:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Kevrob
Post by Chrysi Cat
To be fair, half of all people of any nationality born in 1982 would
have no idea what "sealing a document" is.
I think more of my age-peers (I'm about the same age as the translators,
and graduated HS in '95) _didn't_ understand the line in "Puff, the
Magic Dragon"--which remember was still very _much_ making the
"children's song" rounds in '85, than did, and wondered why you'd ever
be waxing a ceiling! Didn't help that since it never showed up in, say,
an "Amelia Bedelia" book, we had no way of knowing we had the wrong
homophone until we stumbled across mention of a wax-sealed document
sometime deep into our college classes, and usually by means of a
history class they could legitimately never have even audited. This
isn't a "gaijin screw-up"; this is a "too young screw-up", unless I'm
very mistaken.
When I was a kid I watched the film made from Twain's
"The Prince and the Pauper."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prince_and_the_Pauper
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Prince_and_the_Pauper_(1937_film)
http://youtu.be/VYSkvRfqyw4
A plot point revolves around The Great Seal of England.
The "Errol Flynn version" is only one of several that have
been filmed. Besides SF, I loved costume dramas with
action and daring-do. Seals on documents and letters
came up often.
Of course, I first heard "Puff" in the 60s, as it was
released just after I turned 6. "Sealing wax" caused
no problems, but if a child born a quarter century later
didn't care for stories about "the olden days," I could
see how they might be confused.
And if they'd read _Alice_ or had it read to them, would they
understand the reference to "shoes and ships and sealing wax"?
As my parents would have said, "If you don't understand a word
or phrase....well that's why we have dictionaries and encyclopedias."
And, nowadays, search engines!
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
I remember the preface to the edition of _Alice_ that I had as a
child, mentioning the caterpillar with the hookah, "but if you
had never seen a hookah and very few caterpillars, you might
think that that was what they usually did." Though the Tenniel
illustration is reasonably informative.
Post by Kevrob
In Jackson's "The Fellowship of The Ring," Gandalf is
shown sealing an envelope* containing the One Ring with
wax.
Now wait a minute. Gandalf never had his hands on the Ring until
he borrowed it from Frodo to throw it into the fire.
In the film, Gandalf has Frodo place it in the envelope, which
he seals. He never touches the metal, though he came very close.



Later, Frodo retrieves the sealed envelope in from trunk,
whereupon Gandalf snatches the paper and tosses it in the fire...



..then, when the paper burns away, he uses the fireplace
tongs to hand it to Frodo.
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Perhaps you meant "sealing an envelope containing a message
concerning the Ring"?
Post by Kevrob
* And isn't that an anachronism? Did the Elves have Staples?
Believe me or believe me not, envelopes (and stationery stores
where you could buy them) existed before Staples.
On the other hand, I don't know when the use of envelopes to
contain letters came in. Before that, the letter itself would
have been folded up and the wax seal applied to keep it from
being opened by unauthorized personnel in transit.
Here's some comments on both seals (including before wax seals,
which depended on the availability of paper) and envelopes.
https://quilllondon.com/blogs/news/beginners-guide-to-history-of-wax-seals#
The one in the film looked machine-made, which would be
mid-19th century tech.

[quote]

Paper envelopes were developed in China, where paper was invented by
2nd century BC. Paper envelopes, known as chih poh, were used to store
gifts of money. In the Southern Song dynasty, the Chinese imperial
court used paper envelopes to distribute monetary gifts to government
officials.

Prior to 1845, hand-made envelopes were all that were available for
use, both commercial and domestic. In 1845, Edwin Hill and Warren
De La Rue were granted a British patent for the first envelope-making
machine.

[/quote] -

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Envelopes#History_of_envelopes

Perhaps that is what hand-made paper envelopes looked like?

I shopped at an independent stationers as a boy. The one in
my home town had a huge paperback section, and when I was a high
school debater I bought my evidence files, 4" x 6" index cards
and various other accoutrements there.

Kevin R
Dorothy J Heydt
2020-04-09 20:45:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kevrob
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Kevrob
Post by Chrysi Cat
To be fair, half of all people of any nationality born in 1982 would
have no idea what "sealing a document" is.
I think more of my age-peers (I'm about the same age as the translators,
and graduated HS in '95) _didn't_ understand the line in "Puff, the
Magic Dragon"--which remember was still very _much_ making the
"children's song" rounds in '85, than did, and wondered why you'd ever
be waxing a ceiling! Didn't help that since it never showed up in, say,
an "Amelia Bedelia" book, we had no way of knowing we had the wrong
homophone until we stumbled across mention of a wax-sealed document
sometime deep into our college classes, and usually by means of a
history class they could legitimately never have even audited. This
isn't a "gaijin screw-up"; this is a "too young screw-up", unless I'm
very mistaken.
When I was a kid I watched the film made from Twain's
"The Prince and the Pauper."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prince_and_the_Pauper
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Prince_and_the_Pauper_(1937_film)
http://youtu.be/VYSkvRfqyw4
A plot point revolves around The Great Seal of England.
The "Errol Flynn version" is only one of several that have
been filmed. Besides SF, I loved costume dramas with
action and daring-do. Seals on documents and letters
came up often.
Of course, I first heard "Puff" in the 60s, as it was
released just after I turned 6. "Sealing wax" caused
no problems, but if a child born a quarter century later
didn't care for stories about "the olden days," I could
see how they might be confused.
And if they'd read _Alice_ or had it read to them, would they
understand the reference to "shoes and ships and sealing wax"?
As my parents would have said, "If you don't understand a word
or phrase....well that's why we have dictionaries and encyclopedias."
And, nowadays, search engines!
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
I remember the preface to the edition of _Alice_ that I had as a
child, mentioning the caterpillar with the hookah, "but if you
had never seen a hookah and very few caterpillars, you might
think that that was what they usually did." Though the Tenniel
illustration is reasonably informative.
Post by Kevrob
In Jackson's "The Fellowship of The Ring," Gandalf is
shown sealing an envelope* containing the One Ring with
wax.
Now wait a minute. Gandalf never had his hands on the Ring until
he borrowed it from Frodo to throw it into the fire.
In the film, Gandalf has Frodo place it in the envelope, which
he seals. He never touches the metal, though he came very close.
http://youtu.be/whF2na8AIbw
Later, Frodo retrieves the sealed envelope in from trunk,
whereupon Gandalf snatches the paper and tosses it in the fire...
http://youtu.be/MqY83YjA0JE
..then, when the paper burns away, he uses the fireplace
tongs to hand it to Frodo.
Oh, *that* envelope. I sit corrected.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/
Paul S Person
2020-04-10 17:15:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kevrob
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Kevrob
Post by Chrysi Cat
To be fair, half of all people of any nationality born in 1982 would
have no idea what "sealing a document" is.
I think more of my age-peers (I'm about the same age as the translators,
and graduated HS in '95) _didn't_ understand the line in "Puff, the
Magic Dragon"--which remember was still very _much_ making the
"children's song" rounds in '85, than did, and wondered why you'd ever
be waxing a ceiling! Didn't help that since it never showed up in, say,
an "Amelia Bedelia" book, we had no way of knowing we had the wrong
homophone until we stumbled across mention of a wax-sealed document
sometime deep into our college classes, and usually by means of a
history class they could legitimately never have even audited. This
isn't a "gaijin screw-up"; this is a "too young screw-up", unless I'm
very mistaken.
When I was a kid I watched the film made from Twain's
"The Prince and the Pauper."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prince_and_the_Pauper
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Prince_and_the_Pauper_(1937_film)
http://youtu.be/VYSkvRfqyw4
A plot point revolves around The Great Seal of England.
The "Errol Flynn version" is only one of several that have
been filmed. Besides SF, I loved costume dramas with
action and daring-do. Seals on documents and letters
came up often.
Of course, I first heard "Puff" in the 60s, as it was
released just after I turned 6. "Sealing wax" caused
no problems, but if a child born a quarter century later
didn't care for stories about "the olden days," I could
see how they might be confused.
And if they'd read _Alice_ or had it read to them, would they
understand the reference to "shoes and ships and sealing wax"?
As my parents would have said, "If you don't understand a word
or phrase....well that's why we have dictionaries and encyclopedias."
And, nowadays, search engines!
But they /did/ understand the word.

They understood it to mean "any of numerous carnivorous marine mammals
(families Phocidae and Otariidae) that live chiefly in cold regions
and have limbs modified into webbed flippers adapted primarily to
swimming".

So the thought the black thing that gets squished was it.

They just didn't understand it /correctly/.
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."
David Johnston
2020-04-09 16:18:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kevrob
Post by Chrysi Cat
To be fair, half of all people of any nationality born in 1982 would
have no idea what "sealing a document" is.
I think more of my age-peers (I'm about the same age as the translators,
and graduated HS in '95) _didn't_ understand the line in "Puff, the
Magic Dragon"--which remember was still very _much_ making the
"children's song" rounds in '85, than did, and wondered why you'd ever
be waxing a ceiling! Didn't help that since it never showed up in, say,
an "Amelia Bedelia" book, we had no way of knowing we had the wrong
homophone until we stumbled across mention of a wax-sealed document
sometime deep into our college classes, and usually by means of a
history class they could legitimately never have even audited. This
isn't a "gaijin screw-up"; this is a "too young screw-up", unless I'm
very mistaken.
When I was a kid I watched the film made from Twain's
"The Prince and the Pauper."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prince_and_the_Pauper
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Prince_and_the_Pauper_(1937_film)
http://youtu.be/VYSkvRfqyw4
A plot point revolves around The Great Seal of England.
The "Errol Flynn version" is only one of several that have
been filmed. Besides SF, I loved costume dramas with
action and daring-do. Seals on documents and letters
came up often.
Of course, I first heard "Puff" in the 60s, as it was
released just after I turned 6. "Sealing wax" caused
no problems, but if a child born a quarter century later
didn't care for stories about "the olden days," I could
see how they might be confused.
In Jackson's "The Fellowship of The Ring," Gandalf is
shown sealing an envelope* containing the One Ring with
wax.
* And isn't that an anachronism? Did the Elves have Staples?
Kevin R
Both versions of TLOTR are stuffed with things that might be considered
anachronisms but can be excused by the coming catastrophe destroying
everything.
Paul S Person
2020-04-09 17:41:09 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 9 Apr 2020 10:18:59 -0600, David Johnston
Post by David Johnston
Post by Kevrob
Post by Chrysi Cat
To be fair, half of all people of any nationality born in 1982 would
have no idea what "sealing a document" is.
I think more of my age-peers (I'm about the same age as the translators,
and graduated HS in '95) _didn't_ understand the line in "Puff, the
Magic Dragon"--which remember was still very _much_ making the
"children's song" rounds in '85, than did, and wondered why you'd ever
be waxing a ceiling! Didn't help that since it never showed up in, say,
an "Amelia Bedelia" book, we had no way of knowing we had the wrong
homophone until we stumbled across mention of a wax-sealed document
sometime deep into our college classes, and usually by means of a
history class they could legitimately never have even audited. This
isn't a "gaijin screw-up"; this is a "too young screw-up", unless I'm
very mistaken.
When I was a kid I watched the film made from Twain's
"The Prince and the Pauper."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prince_and_the_Pauper
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Prince_and_the_Pauper_(1937_film)
http://youtu.be/VYSkvRfqyw4
A plot point revolves around The Great Seal of England.
The "Errol Flynn version" is only one of several that have
been filmed. Besides SF, I loved costume dramas with
action and daring-do. Seals on documents and letters
came up often.
Of course, I first heard "Puff" in the 60s, as it was
released just after I turned 6. "Sealing wax" caused
no problems, but if a child born a quarter century later
didn't care for stories about "the olden days," I could
see how they might be confused.
In Jackson's "The Fellowship of The Ring," Gandalf is
shown sealing an envelope* containing the One Ring with
wax.
* And isn't that an anachronism? Did the Elves have Staples?
Kevin R
Both versions of TLOTR are stuffed with things that might be considered
anachronisms but can be excused by the coming catastrophe destroying
everything.
Yes, glaciers make great erasers.

If that's what you had in mind.
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."
David Johnston
2020-04-09 22:43:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paul S Person
On Thu, 9 Apr 2020 10:18:59 -0600, David Johnston
Post by David Johnston
Post by Kevrob
Post by Chrysi Cat
To be fair, half of all people of any nationality born in 1982 would
have no idea what "sealing a document" is.
I think more of my age-peers (I'm about the same age as the translators,
and graduated HS in '95) _didn't_ understand the line in "Puff, the
Magic Dragon"--which remember was still very _much_ making the
"children's song" rounds in '85, than did, and wondered why you'd ever
be waxing a ceiling! Didn't help that since it never showed up in, say,
an "Amelia Bedelia" book, we had no way of knowing we had the wrong
homophone until we stumbled across mention of a wax-sealed document
sometime deep into our college classes, and usually by means of a
history class they could legitimately never have even audited. This
isn't a "gaijin screw-up"; this is a "too young screw-up", unless I'm
very mistaken.
When I was a kid I watched the film made from Twain's
"The Prince and the Pauper."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prince_and_the_Pauper
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Prince_and_the_Pauper_(1937_film)
http://youtu.be/VYSkvRfqyw4
A plot point revolves around The Great Seal of England.
The "Errol Flynn version" is only one of several that have
been filmed. Besides SF, I loved costume dramas with
action and daring-do. Seals on documents and letters
came up often.
Of course, I first heard "Puff" in the 60s, as it was
released just after I turned 6. "Sealing wax" caused
no problems, but if a child born a quarter century later
didn't care for stories about "the olden days," I could
see how they might be confused.
In Jackson's "The Fellowship of The Ring," Gandalf is
shown sealing an envelope* containing the One Ring with
wax.
* And isn't that an anachronism? Did the Elves have Staples?
Kevin R
Both versions of TLOTR are stuffed with things that might be considered
anachronisms but can be excused by the coming catastrophe destroying
everything.
Yes, glaciers make great erasers.
If that's what you had in mind.
All the geography is due for a massive rearrangement once the 3rd age
ends.
Lynn McGuire
2020-04-09 23:16:18 UTC
Permalink
On 4/9/2020 5:43 PM, David Johnston wrote:
...
Post by Paul S Person
Yes, glaciers make great erasers.
If that's what you had in mind.
All the geography is due for a massive rearrangement once the 3rd age ends.
3rd ice age ???

Lynn
Dorothy J Heydt
2020-04-10 00:28:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lynn McGuire
...
Post by Paul S Person
Yes, glaciers make great erasers.
If that's what you had in mind.
All the geography is due for a massive rearrangement once the 3rd age ends.
3rd ice age ???
No, the Third Age of Middle-earth, which dates from the creation
of the Sun and Moon. Before that, there wasn't any way of
measuring time except by the waxing and waning of the light of
the Two Trees, and I don't believe there's any statement about
how long that cycle took in terms of what we now call hours.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/
Dorothy J Heydt
2020-04-10 00:38:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lynn McGuire
...
Post by Paul S Person
Yes, glaciers make great erasers.
If that's what you had in mind.
All the geography is due for a massive rearrangement once the 3rd age ends.
3rd ice age ???
I must correct my last post: we're talking about the Third Age of
Middle-earth, which ended on September 29, T.A. 3021, Shire
Reckoning 4021. It was the First Age that began with the
creation of the Sun and Moon.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/
Paul S Person
2020-04-10 17:19:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Lynn McGuire
...
Post by Paul S Person
Yes, glaciers make great erasers.
If that's what you had in mind.
All the geography is due for a massive rearrangement once the 3rd age ends.
3rd ice age ???
I must correct my last post: we're talking about the Third Age of
Middle-earth, which ended on September 29, T.A. 3021, Shire
Reckoning 4021. It was the First Age that began with the
creation of the Sun and Moon.
I don't think the First Age /began/ with the creation of the Sun and
Moon, but their creation /did/ correspond (again, IIRC) with the
Noldor's arrival in Middle Earth.

And, yes, before the Sun and the Moon, the only light was from the Two
Trees, except in the farthest regions to the East, where the Elves
awoke and saw the Stars.
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."
Paul S Person
2020-04-10 17:25:28 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 9 Apr 2020 18:16:18 -0500, Lynn McGuire
Post by Lynn McGuire
...
Post by Paul S Person
Yes, glaciers make great erasers.
If that's what you had in mind.
All the geography is due for a massive rearrangement once the 3rd age ends.
3rd ice age ???
In one of the later /History of Middle Earth/ volumes there are a
couple bits from a proposed novel involving a number of father-son
pairs, set at various times.

On the back of an unrelated scrap of paper (no, really!) is found a
list of proposed episodes. The first, set in the 4th Age, is dated
before 10,000 BC. This is before the last Ice Age.

I have often amused myself by imagining that, if the Baranduin were a
bit broader and deeper and the course, perhaps, a bit different, the
Shire would become SE England and the land to the East part of France.
But fun is fun, and there is no reason to believe that JRRT had
anything remotely resembling that in mind when he drew his map (or had
his son draw his map, whichever).

OTOH, not only have we discovered Hobbit-sized people in the South
Pacific, there apparently was a slightly larger group (Dwarf-size?) in
the near vicinity. So perhaps Fiji was Hobbiton, who can say?
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."
Dorothy J Heydt
2020-04-10 23:09:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paul S Person
On Thu, 9 Apr 2020 18:16:18 -0500, Lynn McGuire
Post by Lynn McGuire
...
Post by Paul S Person
Yes, glaciers make great erasers.
If that's what you had in mind.
All the geography is due for a massive rearrangement once the 3rd age ends.
3rd ice age ???
In one of the later /History of Middle Earth/ volumes there are a
couple bits from a proposed novel involving a number of father-son
pairs, set at various times.
On the back of an unrelated scrap of paper (no, really!) is found a
list of proposed episodes. The first, set in the 4th Age, is dated
before 10,000 BC. This is before the last Ice Age.
I have often amused myself by imagining that, if the Baranduin were a
bit broader and deeper and the course, perhaps, a bit different, the
Shire would become SE England and the land to the East part of France.
But fun is fun, and there is no reason to believe that JRRT had
anything remotely resembling that in mind when he drew his map (or had
his son draw his map, whichever).
Actually, IIRC, in the first draft(s) of his legendarium, the
town of Warwick (where he and Mrs. Tolkien were living at the
time) *was* Tol Eressea, which had migrated back and forth across
the Great sea.
Post by Paul S Person
OTOH, not only have we discovered Hobbit-sized people in the South
Pacific, there apparently was a slightly larger group (Dwarf-size?) in
the near vicinity. So perhaps Fiji was Hobbiton, who can say?
I remember when somebody interviewed one of the Hobbit-sized
islanders (they're in the East Indies, not the South Pacific),
and he said, "No, I'm not a Hobbit, it's just that when I was
growing up there wasn't much to eat."
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/
Kevrob
2020-04-11 01:06:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
I remember when somebody interviewed one of the Hobbit-sized
islanders (they're in the East Indies, not the South Pacific),
and he said, "No, I'm not a Hobbit, it's just that when I was
growing up there wasn't much to eat."
How small would hobbits be if they only got 3 squares a day? :)

Kevin R
Paul S Person
2020-04-11 17:39:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Paul S Person
On Thu, 9 Apr 2020 18:16:18 -0500, Lynn McGuire
Post by Lynn McGuire
...
Post by Paul S Person
Yes, glaciers make great erasers.
If that's what you had in mind.
All the geography is due for a massive rearrangement once the 3rd age ends.
3rd ice age ???
In one of the later /History of Middle Earth/ volumes there are a
couple bits from a proposed novel involving a number of father-son
pairs, set at various times.
On the back of an unrelated scrap of paper (no, really!) is found a
list of proposed episodes. The first, set in the 4th Age, is dated
before 10,000 BC. This is before the last Ice Age.
I have often amused myself by imagining that, if the Baranduin were a
bit broader and deeper and the course, perhaps, a bit different, the
Shire would become SE England and the land to the East part of France.
But fun is fun, and there is no reason to believe that JRRT had
anything remotely resembling that in mind when he drew his map (or had
his son draw his map, whichever).
Actually, IIRC, in the first draft(s) of his legendarium, the
town of Warwick (where he and Mrs. Tolkien were living at the
time) *was* Tol Eressea, which had migrated back and forth across
the Great sea.
Indeed, so it was.

And giant mechanical things destroyed the Hidden City.

Lots of stuff changed in the next version.

Among other things, the "air/water/fire/earth spirits" became the
lesser Ainur known in Arda as Maiar.

Manwe's son became his herald.

And the Ainur were demoted from the rank of "the pagan gods" to mere
"Angelic Beings".
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Paul S Person
OTOH, not only have we discovered Hobbit-sized people in the South
Pacific, there apparently was a slightly larger group (Dwarf-size?) in
the near vicinity. So perhaps Fiji was Hobbiton, who can say?
I remember when somebody interviewed one of the Hobbit-sized
islanders (they're in the East Indies, not the South Pacific),
and he said, "No, I'm not a Hobbit, it's just that when I was
growing up there wasn't much to eat."
That sounds ... unlikely ... since both find are, so far as I know,
purely archaeological.
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."
Dorothy J Heydt
2020-04-11 18:24:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paul S Person
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
I remember when somebody interviewed one of the Hobbit-sized
islanders (they're in the East Indies, not the South Pacific),
and he said, "No, I'm not a Hobbit, it's just that when I was
growing up there wasn't much to eat."
That sounds ... unlikely ... since both find are, so far as I know,
purely archaeological.
Well, the Hobbits are fictional and _Homo floresensis_ is known
only from fossils. Not *quite* the same thing.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/
Robert Carnegie
2020-04-11 18:48:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Paul S Person
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
I remember when somebody interviewed one of the Hobbit-sized
islanders (they're in the East Indies, not the South Pacific),
and he said, "No, I'm not a Hobbit, it's just that when I was
growing up there wasn't much to eat."
That sounds ... unlikely ... since both find are, so far as I know,
purely archaeological.
Well, the Hobbits are fictional and _Homo floresensis_ is known
only from fossils. Not *quite* the same thing.
I think your interview is fictional, so, could be either?

But, a hobbit growing up with not much to eat?
That's just unbelievable. ;-)
Paul S Person
2020-04-12 17:16:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Paul S Person
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
I remember when somebody interviewed one of the Hobbit-sized
islanders (they're in the East Indies, not the South Pacific),
and he said, "No, I'm not a Hobbit, it's just that when I was
growing up there wasn't much to eat."
That sounds ... unlikely ... since both find are, so far as I know,
purely archaeological.
Well, the Hobbits are fictional and _Homo floresensis_ is known
only from fossils. Not *quite* the same thing.
I was referring to both the "hobbits" and the more-recently-found
slightly-larger group I called "dwarves".

Sorry for any confusion.
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."
Dorothy J Heydt
2020-04-10 00:26:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Johnston
Post by Paul S Person
On Thu, 9 Apr 2020 10:18:59 -0600, David Johnston
Post by David Johnston
Post by Kevrob
Post by Chrysi Cat
To be fair, half of all people of any nationality born in 1982 would
have no idea what "sealing a document" is.
I think more of my age-peers (I'm about the same age as the translators,
and graduated HS in '95) _didn't_ understand the line in "Puff, the
Magic Dragon"--which remember was still very _much_ making the
"children's song" rounds in '85, than did, and wondered why you'd ever
be waxing a ceiling! Didn't help that since it never showed up in, say,
an "Amelia Bedelia" book, we had no way of knowing we had the wrong
homophone until we stumbled across mention of a wax-sealed document
sometime deep into our college classes, and usually by means of a
history class they could legitimately never have even audited. This
isn't a "gaijin screw-up"; this is a "too young screw-up", unless I'm
very mistaken.
When I was a kid I watched the film made from Twain's
"The Prince and the Pauper."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prince_and_the_Pauper
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Prince_and_the_Pauper_(1937_film)
http://youtu.be/VYSkvRfqyw4
A plot point revolves around The Great Seal of England.
The "Errol Flynn version" is only one of several that have
been filmed. Besides SF, I loved costume dramas with
action and daring-do. Seals on documents and letters
came up often.
Of course, I first heard "Puff" in the 60s, as it was
released just after I turned 6. "Sealing wax" caused
no problems, but if a child born a quarter century later
didn't care for stories about "the olden days," I could
see how they might be confused.
In Jackson's "The Fellowship of The Ring," Gandalf is
shown sealing an envelope* containing the One Ring with
wax.
* And isn't that an anachronism? Did the Elves have Staples?
Kevin R
Both versions of TLOTR are stuffed with things that might be considered
anachronisms but can be excused by the coming catastrophe destroying
everything.
Yes, glaciers make great erasers.
If that's what you had in mind.
All the geography is due for a massive rearrangement once the 3rd age
ends.
In particular, when the Great Sea pours in and turns Mordor into
the Mediterranean.

There may be another glaciation in store, too, because that's
what (once it melted) cut Britain off from Europe.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/
Paul S Person
2020-04-10 17:16:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by David Johnston
Post by Paul S Person
On Thu, 9 Apr 2020 10:18:59 -0600, David Johnston
Post by David Johnston
Post by Kevrob
Post by Chrysi Cat
To be fair, half of all people of any nationality born in 1982 would
have no idea what "sealing a document" is.
I think more of my age-peers (I'm about the same age as the translators,
and graduated HS in '95) _didn't_ understand the line in "Puff, the
Magic Dragon"--which remember was still very _much_ making the
"children's song" rounds in '85, than did, and wondered why you'd ever
be waxing a ceiling! Didn't help that since it never showed up in, say,
an "Amelia Bedelia" book, we had no way of knowing we had the wrong
homophone until we stumbled across mention of a wax-sealed document
sometime deep into our college classes, and usually by means of a
history class they could legitimately never have even audited. This
isn't a "gaijin screw-up"; this is a "too young screw-up", unless I'm
very mistaken.
When I was a kid I watched the film made from Twain's
"The Prince and the Pauper."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prince_and_the_Pauper
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Prince_and_the_Pauper_(1937_film)
http://youtu.be/VYSkvRfqyw4
A plot point revolves around The Great Seal of England.
The "Errol Flynn version" is only one of several that have
been filmed. Besides SF, I loved costume dramas with
action and daring-do. Seals on documents and letters
came up often.
Of course, I first heard "Puff" in the 60s, as it was
released just after I turned 6. "Sealing wax" caused
no problems, but if a child born a quarter century later
didn't care for stories about "the olden days," I could
see how they might be confused.
In Jackson's "The Fellowship of The Ring," Gandalf is
shown sealing an envelope* containing the One Ring with
wax.
* And isn't that an anachronism? Did the Elves have Staples?
Kevin R
Both versions of TLOTR are stuffed with things that might be considered
anachronisms but can be excused by the coming catastrophe destroying
everything.
Yes, glaciers make great erasers.
If that's what you had in mind.
All the geography is due for a massive rearrangement once the 3rd age
ends.
In particular, when the Great Sea pours in and turns Mordor into
the Mediterranean.
There may be another glaciation in store, too, because that's
what (once it melted) cut Britain off from Europe.
It's pretty far east to be the Mediterranean.

Maybe the Black Sea ...
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."
p***@hotmail.com
2020-04-10 00:13:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chrysi Cat
Post by Paul S Person
On Tue, 7 Apr 2020 13:51:21 -0600, David Johnston
Post by David Johnston
Post by p***@hotmail.com
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Jaimie Vandenbergh
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Jaimie Vandenbergh
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Lynn McGuire
Over the Hedge: the two gross dudes
https://www.gocomics.com/overthehedge/2020/04/04
I can't feel my spleen either.
Good thing. If you could, it would probably be diseased and
hurting like hell. (I can remember the ten days when I could
feel my pancreas.)
Yeah. On occasions I spend eight hours or so able to feel my right ureter.
Four hours of that are excruciating.
Scar tissue from old kidney stone attacks, which sometimes flares up if I
don't get enough fluid through me.
Go drink some water.
I have a pint of green tea to my left hand. Almost all the time. Big mugs and
big glasses are my cunning trick to keep the fluid flowing!
Good.
The only time I've ever been seriously dehydrated was ... maybe
twenty years ago? I had some kind of bug [its identity still
unknown, at least to me] and felt like crud, so Hal took me in to
the doctor's office. It was a group of partners, and I saw whichever
of the doctors was available. He had me get some blood tests and
sent me home to rest.
Few days later, I still felt like crud, so I went in again, and a
different doctor told me I was dehydrated and to go home and
drink lots of water. I mentioned to him that the previous doctor
had had some blood tests done, so the doctor of the day went to
look at the results. I think he may have been looking at my
white-cell count, when he shouted, "TEN THOUSAND!"
He prescribed some antibiotics and some more tests, so we went to
the building next door to get the tests done. In addition to
feeling like crud, I must have looked like it too, for when she'd
collected all the necessary fluids the kindly technician said,
"All right, dear, I'm done, your son can take you home now."
Hal is only seven years younger than I am, and I usually look
younger than I am. I must have really looked like crud. I went
home and drank lots of water, and I got better.
Your mention of drinking lots of water triggered a memory of
the movie _Who Framed Roger Rabbit_. This quote is from a
read:https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/lifestyle/style/1992/03/01/lost-in-translation/d39166d1-5e95-4c3b-8b99-b3e666cc6d0b/
The writers also have to figure out what to do with references that only
Americans could understand.
Riedel, who also edits scripts into German, routinely has to make up plays
on words that try to approximate the original meaning. In the cartoon-live
action feature "Who Framed Roger Rabbit," Eddie Valiant sends his girlfriend
to check the probate records.
"Ah, my uncle had probate," Roger says. "He had to stay in bed and drink
lots of water."
"Prostate" in German is Prostata. So far, so good. But "probate" is
Erbschein. Not funny.
"I didn't know what to do," Riedel says. "I sat there for an hour. Finally,
I found something close. I did a word play on inspizieren {inspect} and
infizieren {infect}."
I would like to see a word-for-word translation of the dubbed version of
that scene.
Watch the french versions of the songs for Frozen sometime. It's
interesting how they change the characterization with the rephrasing.
The DVD for /Spirited Away/ had an allegedly-special feature in which
1. In the English version, the "good" and "bad" sister are switched
(they said it, I have no idea).
2. When the "seal" came out, they thought it was the black thing,
because it looked like one. They had never heard of "sealing a
document"!
With translators like that, is it any wonder I watch my Miyazaki in
Japanese and read the subtitles?
To be fair, half of all people of any nationality born in 1982 would
have no idea what "sealing a document" is.
I think more of my age-peers (I'm about the same age as the translators,
and graduated HS in '95) _didn't_ understand the line in "Puff, the
Magic Dragon"--which remember was still very _much_ making the
"children's song" rounds in '85, than did, and wondered why you'd ever
be waxing a ceiling! Didn't help that since it never showed up in, say,
an "Amelia Bedelia" book, we had no way of knowing we had the wrong
homophone until we stumbled across mention of a wax-sealed document
sometime deep into our college classes, and usually by means of a
history class they could legitimately never have even audited. This
isn't a "gaijin screw-up"; this is a "too young screw-up", unless I'm
very mistaken.
The manufacture and use of sealing wax extended further into modern times
than some might think. I read an account of the kinds of economic problems
prevalent in the communist block in the absence of market cues. An example
given was an Eastern European economic planner who was tasked with reducing
the country's trade deficit. He reviewed a list of imports looking for things
that could be dispensed with. He found that they were importing significant
amounts of sealing wax from the West. This seemed to him like a decadent
capitalist sort of thing, and in due course its import was forbidden.

It turned out that sealing wax had been imported not to seal documents
but as a feedstock for the manufacture of shoe polish. Polishing shoes
does not just enhance their appearance, it greatly extends the life of
the leather, so it is of substantial economic benefit. With sealing wax
cut off, they were having to import western shoe polish and the trade
deficit was worse than before.

Peter Wezeman
anti-social Darwinist
Peter Trei
2020-04-10 01:40:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by p***@hotmail.com
Post by Chrysi Cat
Post by Paul S Person
On Tue, 7 Apr 2020 13:51:21 -0600, David Johnston
Post by David Johnston
Post by p***@hotmail.com
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Jaimie Vandenbergh
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Jaimie Vandenbergh
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Lynn McGuire
Over the Hedge: the two gross dudes
https://www.gocomics.com/overthehedge/2020/04/04
I can't feel my spleen either.
Good thing. If you could, it would probably be diseased and
hurting like hell. (I can remember the ten days when I could
feel my pancreas.)
Yeah. On occasions I spend eight hours or so able to feel my right ureter.
Four hours of that are excruciating.
Scar tissue from old kidney stone attacks, which sometimes flares up if I
don't get enough fluid through me.
Go drink some water.
I have a pint of green tea to my left hand. Almost all the time. Big mugs and
big glasses are my cunning trick to keep the fluid flowing!
Good.
The only time I've ever been seriously dehydrated was ... maybe
twenty years ago? I had some kind of bug [its identity still
unknown, at least to me] and felt like crud, so Hal took me in to
the doctor's office. It was a group of partners, and I saw whichever
of the doctors was available. He had me get some blood tests and
sent me home to rest.
Few days later, I still felt like crud, so I went in again, and a
different doctor told me I was dehydrated and to go home and
drink lots of water. I mentioned to him that the previous doctor
had had some blood tests done, so the doctor of the day went to
look at the results. I think he may have been looking at my
white-cell count, when he shouted, "TEN THOUSAND!"
He prescribed some antibiotics and some more tests, so we went to
the building next door to get the tests done. In addition to
feeling like crud, I must have looked like it too, for when she'd
collected all the necessary fluids the kindly technician said,
"All right, dear, I'm done, your son can take you home now."
Hal is only seven years younger than I am, and I usually look
younger than I am. I must have really looked like crud. I went
home and drank lots of water, and I got better.
Your mention of drinking lots of water triggered a memory of
the movie _Who Framed Roger Rabbit_. This quote is from a
read:https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/lifestyle/style/1992/03/01/lost-in-translation/d39166d1-5e95-4c3b-8b99-b3e666cc6d0b/
The writers also have to figure out what to do with references that only
Americans could understand.
Riedel, who also edits scripts into German, routinely has to make up plays
on words that try to approximate the original meaning. In the cartoon-live
action feature "Who Framed Roger Rabbit," Eddie Valiant sends his girlfriend
to check the probate records.
"Ah, my uncle had probate," Roger says. "He had to stay in bed and drink
lots of water."
"Prostate" in German is Prostata. So far, so good. But "probate" is
Erbschein. Not funny.
"I didn't know what to do," Riedel says. "I sat there for an hour. Finally,
I found something close. I did a word play on inspizieren {inspect} and
infizieren {infect}."
I would like to see a word-for-word translation of the dubbed version of
that scene.
Watch the french versions of the songs for Frozen sometime. It's
interesting how they change the characterization with the rephrasing.
The DVD for /Spirited Away/ had an allegedly-special feature in which
1. In the English version, the "good" and "bad" sister are switched
(they said it, I have no idea).
2. When the "seal" came out, they thought it was the black thing,
because it looked like one. They had never heard of "sealing a
document"!
With translators like that, is it any wonder I watch my Miyazaki in
Japanese and read the subtitles?
To be fair, half of all people of any nationality born in 1982 would
have no idea what "sealing a document" is.
I think more of my age-peers (I'm about the same age as the translators,
and graduated HS in '95) _didn't_ understand the line in "Puff, the
Magic Dragon"--which remember was still very _much_ making the
"children's song" rounds in '85, than did, and wondered why you'd ever
be waxing a ceiling! Didn't help that since it never showed up in, say,
an "Amelia Bedelia" book, we had no way of knowing we had the wrong
homophone until we stumbled across mention of a wax-sealed document
sometime deep into our college classes, and usually by means of a
history class they could legitimately never have even audited. This
isn't a "gaijin screw-up"; this is a "too young screw-up", unless I'm
very mistaken.
The manufacture and use of sealing wax extended further into modern times
than some might think. I read an account of the kinds of economic problems
prevalent in the communist block in the absence of market cues. An example
given was an Eastern European economic planner who was tasked with reducing
the country's trade deficit. He reviewed a list of imports looking for things
that could be dispensed with. He found that they were importing significant
amounts of sealing wax from the West. This seemed to him like a decadent
capitalist sort of thing, and in due course its import was forbidden.
It turned out that sealing wax had been imported not to seal documents
but as a feedstock for the manufacture of shoe polish. Polishing shoes
does not just enhance their appearance, it greatly extends the life of
the leather, so it is of substantial economic benefit. With sealing wax
cut off, they were having to import western shoe polish and the trade
deficit was worse than before.
Peter Wezeman
anti-social Darwinist
Circa 1967, I was a kid in Sweden, and was sent on my bike to the post office
to pick up a parcel. It was, in fact, Estonian folk costumes that my parents
had ordered for me and my siblings, from Estonia.

They arrived in a pillow shaped cloth package, bound with string, and where the
string was knotted, there were red sealing wax seals, somewhat the worse for
wear. I can only guess that it was some bit of Soviet bureaucracy which
indicated that the contents had been inspected and approved for export.

That's the only time I've seen sealing wax used contemporaneously for reasons
other than to look cool.

I used to collect seals. The sealing wax available then was shellac based.
That was quite brittle, and couldn't go through modern mail machinery. There is
now slightly flexible was available for that purpose.x
pt
Dorothy J Heydt
2020-04-10 03:12:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Trei
Circa 1967, I was a kid in Sweden, and was sent on my bike to the post office
to pick up a parcel. It was, in fact, Estonian folk costumes that my parents
had ordered for me and my siblings, from Estonia.
They arrived in a pillow shaped cloth package, bound with string, and where the
string was knotted, there were red sealing wax seals, somewhat the worse for
wear. I can only guess that it was some bit of Soviet bureaucracy which
indicated that the contents had been inspected and approved for export.
That's the only time I've seen sealing wax used contemporaneously for reasons
other than to look cool.
I used to collect seals. The sealing wax available then was shellac based.
That was quite brittle, and couldn't go through modern mail machinery. There is
now slightly flexible was available for that purpose.
The SCA College of Heralds uses sealing wax to put on scrolls of
awards. Real sealing wax (whatever it's made of nowadays),
dripped onto the appropriate bit of the scroll and embossed with
a brass stamp depicting the arms of the Kingdom Herald. In the
West Kingdom the principal herald is the Vesper Herald, and
(unless they've changed it since I was Vesper's privy clerk,
forty-some years ago) shows a few bats fluttering within the
laurel wreath, because the Vesper Herald whom I served, Karina
of the Far West (Karen Anderson), knew there was a bat called
a Vespertillio. Heralds love puns.

Now I come to think of it, the West Kingdom seal is probably also
attached. I have some of my and Hal's scrolls around somewhere,
but I'm not sure where.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/
Robert Carnegie
2020-04-10 11:20:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Peter Trei
Circa 1967, I was a kid in Sweden, and was sent on my bike to the post office
to pick up a parcel. It was, in fact, Estonian folk costumes that my parents
had ordered for me and my siblings, from Estonia.
They arrived in a pillow shaped cloth package, bound with string, and where the
string was knotted, there were red sealing wax seals, somewhat the worse for
wear. I can only guess that it was some bit of Soviet bureaucracy which
indicated that the contents had been inspected and approved for export.
That's the only time I've seen sealing wax used contemporaneously for reasons
other than to look cool.
I used to collect seals. The sealing wax available then was shellac based.
That was quite brittle, and couldn't go through modern mail machinery. There is
now slightly flexible was available for that purpose.
The SCA College of Heralds uses sealing wax to put on scrolls of
awards. Real sealing wax (whatever it's made of nowadays),
dripped onto the appropriate bit of the scroll and embossed with
a brass stamp depicting the arms of the Kingdom Herald. In the
West Kingdom the principal herald is the Vesper Herald, and
(unless they've changed it since I was Vesper's privy clerk,
forty-some years ago) shows a few bats fluttering within the
laurel wreath, because the Vesper Herald whom I served, Karina
of the Far West (Karen Anderson), knew there was a bat called
a Vespertillio. Heralds love puns.
Now I come to think of it, the West Kingdom seal is probably also
attached. I have some of my and Hal's scrolls around somewhere,
but I'm not sure where.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/
I haven't tried any of the recipes that are online
for ("home made") sealing wax. One mentioned
"repurposed crayons" and might be undignified
for SCA, but only if you tell anybody or use
the purple, pink, and other leftover colours,
which are a giveaway. Another recipe starts
with beeswax, or, by implication, with bees.
p***@hotmail.com
2020-04-10 18:49:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Peter Trei
Circa 1967, I was a kid in Sweden, and was sent on my bike to the post office
to pick up a parcel. It was, in fact, Estonian folk costumes that my parents
had ordered for me and my siblings, from Estonia.
They arrived in a pillow shaped cloth package, bound with string, and where the
string was knotted, there were red sealing wax seals, somewhat the worse for
wear. I can only guess that it was some bit of Soviet bureaucracy which
indicated that the contents had been inspected and approved for export.
That's the only time I've seen sealing wax used contemporaneously for reasons
other than to look cool.
I used to collect seals. The sealing wax available then was shellac based.
That was quite brittle, and couldn't go through modern mail machinery. There is
now slightly flexible was available for that purpose.
The SCA College of Heralds uses sealing wax to put on scrolls of
awards. Real sealing wax (whatever it's made of nowadays),
dripped onto the appropriate bit of the scroll and embossed with
a brass stamp depicting the arms of the Kingdom Herald. In the
West Kingdom the principal herald is the Vesper Herald, and
(unless they've changed it since I was Vesper's privy clerk,
forty-some years ago) shows a few bats fluttering within the
laurel wreath, because the Vesper Herald whom I served, Karina
of the Far West (Karen Anderson), knew there was a bat called
a Vespertillio. Heralds love puns.
Now I come to think of it, the West Kingdom seal is probably also
attached. I have some of my and Hal's scrolls around somewhere,
but I'm not sure where.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/
I haven't tried any of the recipes that are online
for ("home made") sealing wax. One mentioned
"repurposed crayons" and might be undignified
for SCA, but only if you tell anybody or use
the purple, pink, and other leftover colours,
which are a giveaway. Another recipe starts
with beeswax, or, by implication, with bees.
I have a vague memory of a detective show where they were trying to
determine the authenticity of an old document, and one clue was that
sealing wax of the correct period would have a beeswax base.

Peter Wezeman
anti-social Darwinist
Kevrob
2020-04-10 12:19:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Trei
That's the only time I've seen sealing wax used contemporaneously
for reasons other than to look cool.
Falling under "looks cool" - the trademarked red sealing wax
on the Maker's Mark bourbon bottles. Sealing's original function
was to retard evaporation.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maker%27s_Mark

https://thewhiskeywash.com/whiskey-styles/bourbon/behind-seal-story-makers-mark-bottle/

Kevin R
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