[OT] Bad News for Hal (and other California computer users)

[Quadibloc]

California, along with Colorado, Hawai'i, Oregon, Vermont, and Washington state, have passed new laws mandating energy efficiency or usage standards for desktop computer systems.
It will no longer be enough to be Energy Star certified.
Thus, some higher-end pre-built computer systems may not be shipped to buyers in those states, or sold in those states.
Additional regulations will come into effect in early December.

https://www.theregister.com/2021/07/26/dell_energy_pcs/
https://wccftech.com/dell-unable-to-fulfill-alienware-aurora-ryzen-edition-orders-in-6-us-states-eco-hazard/
https://www.extremetech.com/computing/325163-alienware-claims-it-cant-sell-high-end-desktop-pcs-in-6-us-states

John Savard

[Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha]

Post by Quadibloc
California, along with Colorado, Hawai'i, Oregon, Vermont, and
Washington state, have passed new laws mandating energy
efficiency or usage standards for desktop computer systems. It
will no longer be enough to be Energy Star certified. Thus, some
higher-end pre-built computer systems may not be shipped to
buyers in those states, or sold in those states. Additional
regulations will come into effect in early December.

That's not bad news for Hal, his Raspberry Pi systems should
comfortably fall under the new limits.
Dell has two (count them) of their hundred systems that
they won't ship to Ca, and it's mainly because they idle
at 50+ watts, which is, frankly, ridiculous for any modern
system.

And they're both Alienware gaming boxes.
--
Terry Austin

Proof that Alan Baker is a liar and a fool, and even stupider than
Lynn:
https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/stats/sw-border-migration
(May 2019 total for people arrested for entering the United States
illegally is over 132,000 for just the southwest border.)

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB

[Magewolf]

On Tue, 27 Jul 2021 15:23:48 -0700, Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha

Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha

Post by Quadibloc
California, along with Colorado, Hawai'i, Oregon, Vermont, and
Washington state, have passed new laws mandating energy efficiency or
usage standards for desktop computer systems. It will no longer be
enough to be Energy Star certified. Thus, some higher-end pre-built
computer systems may not be shipped to buyers in those states, or sold
in those states. Additional regulations will come into effect in early
December.

That's not bad news for Hal, his Raspberry Pi systems should
comfortably fall under the new limits.
Dell has two (count them) of their hundred systems that they won't ship
to Ca, and it's mainly because they idle at 50+ watts, which is,
frankly, ridiculous for any modern system.

And they're both Alienware gaming boxes.

I am tempted to say that anything that stops someone from wasting money
on an Alienware pc(this is a funny review of a current Alienware "gaming
system"

)is a good thing but
it could just be the tip of a "stupid" iceberg. If this fails to have
any real effect will they start outlawing any power supply over 400
watts?

[Quadibloc]

it could just be the tip of a "stupid" iceberg. If this fails to have
any real effect will they start outlawing any power supply over 400
watts?

That sort of thing is always possible. But I don't want to be
over-sensitive to such possibilities, on the grounds that it would
be hypocritical to accept government regulation of what other
people do, but not what I do.

Of course, what I'd really like is for them to start building nice
carbon-free nuclear power plants instead of restricting energy
use. But, of course, not on the San Andreas fault, which is a
problem given the current anti-nuclear hysteria (that is, other
states might not accept additional nuclear capacity to meet
California's energy needs).

John Savard

[Paul S Person]

On Tue, 27 Jul 2021 18:26:16 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc

Post by Quadibloc

it could just be the tip of a "stupid" iceberg. If this fails to have
any real effect will they start outlawing any power supply over 400
watts?

That sort of thing is always possible. But I don't want to be
over-sensitive to such possibilities, on the grounds that it would
be hypocritical to accept government regulation of what other
people do, but not what I do.
Of course, what I'd really like is for them to start building nice
carbon-free nuclear power plants instead of restricting energy
use. But, of course, not on the San Andreas fault, which is a
problem given the current anti-nuclear hysteria (that is, other
states might not accept additional nuclear capacity to meet
California's energy needs).

If I can believe my eyes, Everett will be getting a /fusion/ power
plant ... or, at least, a building intended to hold one:
<https://www.king5.com/article/tech/science/environment/clean-energy-power-plant-new-fusion-technology-breaks-ground-everett-helion-shell-energy/281-f87735b7-35c1-4740-ad47-a84cbdb911d8>
and some new, presumably well-paying, jobs.

Whether it ever actually generates power, and how long it takes,
remains to be seen.

[Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha]

Post by Paul S Person
On Tue, 27 Jul 2021 18:26:16 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc

Post by Quadibloc

it could just be the tip of a "stupid" iceberg. If this fails
to have any real effect will they start outlawing any power
supply over 400 watts?

That sort of thing is always possible. But I don't want to be
over-sensitive to such possibilities, on the grounds that it
would be hypocritical to accept government regulation of what
other people do, but not what I do.
Of course, what I'd really like is for them to start building
nice carbon-free nuclear power plants instead of restricting
energy use. But, of course, not on the San Andreas fault, which
is a problem given the current anti-nuclear hysteria (that is,
other states might not accept additional nuclear capacity to
meet California's energy needs).

If I can believe my eyes, Everett will be getting a /fusion/
<https://www.king5.com/article/tech/science/environment/clean-ene
rgy-power-plant-new-fusion-technology-breaks-ground-everett-helio
n-shell-energy/281-f87735b7-35c1-4740-ad47-a84cbdb911d8> and
some new, presumably well-paying, jobs.
Whether it ever actually generates power, and how long it takes,
remains to be seen.

Fusion power has only been 20 years away for 50 years now. But
whether or not it ever generates power, and whether or not the
people behind it ever *expect* it to, is not the point. Like the
bridge to nowhere, and the high speed rail between LA and Vegas,
it's about union jobs in exchange for union votes.
--
Terry Austin

Proof that Alan Baker is a liar and a fool, and even stupider than
Lynn:
https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/stats/sw-border-migration
(May 2019 total for people arrested for entering the United States
illegally is over 132,000 for just the southwest border.)

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB

[Scott Lurndal]

Post by Paul S Person
On Tue, 27 Jul 2021 18:26:16 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc

Post by Quadibloc

it could just be the tip of a "stupid" iceberg. If this fails to have
any real effect will they start outlawing any power supply over 400
watts?

That sort of thing is always possible. But I don't want to be
over-sensitive to such possibilities, on the grounds that it would
be hypocritical to accept government regulation of what other
people do, but not what I do.
Of course, what I'd really like is for them to start building nice
carbon-free nuclear power plants instead of restricting energy
use. But, of course, not on the San Andreas fault, which is a
problem given the current anti-nuclear hysteria (that is, other
states might not accept additional nuclear capacity to meet
California's energy needs).

If I can believe my eyes, Everett will be getting a /fusion/ power
<https://www.king5.com/article/tech/science/environment/clean-energy-power-plant-new-fusion-technology-breaks-ground-everett-helion-shell-energy/281-f87735b7-35c1-4740-ad47-a84cbdb911d8>
and some new, presumably well-paying, jobs.
Whether it ever actually generates power, and how long it takes,
remains to be seen.

https://www.helionenergy.com/faq/

Our (Helion) approach does three major things differently from other fusion approaches:

1) We utilize a pulsed fusion system. This helps us overcome the hardest physics
challenges, keeps our fusion device smaller than other approaches, and allows
us to adjust the power output based on need.

2) Our system is built to directly recover electricity. Just like regenerative
braking in an electric car, our system is built to recover all unused and
new electromagnetic energy efficiently. Other fusion systems heat water to
create steam to turn a turbine which loses a lot of energy in the process.

3) We use deuterium and helium-3 (D-³He) as fuel. Helium-3 is a cleaner,
higher octane fuel. This helps keep our system small and efficient.

Time will tell. Kudos if they make it work at greater than break-even.

[Quadibloc]

Time will tell. Kudos if they make it work at greater than break-even.

Given that a European tokamak managed to achieve break-even, I suppose
it's plausible that the much simpler inertial confinement approach _ought_
to be able to work.

Helium 3, however, isn't exactly something that is mined from anywhere,
except perhaps the lunar surface. Perhaps it is a byproduct of nuclear
reactors being used to produce material for hydrogen bombs in the
U.S. nuclear arsenal?

Usually, inertial confinement works by bombarding the pellet with
really intense lasers. All very well for experimental purposes, but that
uses a lot of energy. That the pellet might produce even more - well,
an H-bomb makes a bigger bank than the A-bomb that triggered it,
but one expects lasers doing the work of an A-bomb to be rather less
energy-efficient.

So perhaps they've made a breakthrough in efficient lasers, as well
as in MHD?

John Savard

[Scott Lurndal]

Post by Quadibloc

Time will tell. Kudos if they make it work at greater than break-even.

Given that a European tokamak managed to achieve break-even, I suppose
it's plausible that the much simpler inertial confinement approach _ought_
to be able to work.
Helium 3, however, isn't exactly something that is mined from anywhere,
except perhaps the lunar surface. Perhaps it is a byproduct of nuclear
reactors being used to produce material for hydrogen bombs in the
U.S. nuclear arsenal?

The answer to this question is in the link you elided and apparently did
not read. Research first, Research Second, Post third.

[Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha]

Post by Scott Lurndal

Post by Quadibloc

Time will tell. Kudos if they make it work at greater than
break-even.

Given that a European tokamak managed to achieve break-even, I
suppose it's plausible that the much simpler inertial
confinement approach _ought_ to be able to work.
Helium 3, however, isn't exactly something that is mined from
anywhere, except perhaps the lunar surface. Perhaps it is a
byproduct of nuclear reactors being used to produce material for
hydrogen bombs in the U.S. nuclear arsenal?

The answer to this question is in the link you elided and
apparently did not read. Research first, Research Second, Post
third.

Quaddie always.
--
Terry Austin

Proof that Alan Baker is a liar and a fool, and even stupider than
Lynn:
https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/stats/sw-border-migration
(May 2019 total for people arrested for entering the United States
illegally is over 132,000 for just the southwest border.)

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB

[Quadibloc]

Post by Scott Lurndal

Post by Quadibloc
Helium 3, however, isn't exactly something that is mined from anywhere,
except perhaps the lunar surface. Perhaps it is a byproduct of nuclear
reactors being used to produce material for hydrogen bombs in the
U.S. nuclear arsenal?

The answer to this question is in the link you elided and apparently did
not read. Research first, Research Second, Post third.

Oh, wonderful. They're going to make their own Helium-3 from deuterium
in their plasma accelerator. In that case, their process will be effectively
equivalent to the much harder to achieve D-D fusion, and will therefore
have the fuel available to fulfill the promise of fusion - an energy source
that will last a very long time.

So their claims are even *bigger* than I realized.

John Savard

[Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha]

On Wednesday, July 28, 2021 at 2:25:52 PM UTC-6, Scott Lurndal

Post by Scott Lurndal

Post by Quadibloc
Helium 3, however, isn't exactly something that is mined from
anywhere, except perhaps the lunar surface. Perhaps it is a
byproduct of nuclear reactors being used to produce material
for hydrogen bombs in the U.S. nuclear arsenal?

The answer to this question is in the link you elided and
apparently did not read. Research first, Research Second, Post
third.

Oh, wonderful. They're going to make their own Helium-3 from
deuterium in their plasma accelerator. In that case, their
process will be effectively equivalent to the much harder to
achieve D-D fusion,

Does that multi-step process actually produce more energy than it
uses?

So their claims are even *bigger* than I realized.

Perpetual motion schemes predate the industrial revolution.
--
Terry Austin

Proof that Alan Baker is a liar and a fool, and even stupider than
Lynn:
https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/stats/sw-border-migration
(May 2019 total for people arrested for entering the United States
illegally is over 132,000 for just the southwest border.)

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB

[Thomas Koenig]

Post by Quadibloc

Post by Scott Lurndal

Post by Quadibloc
Helium 3, however, isn't exactly something that is mined from anywhere,
except perhaps the lunar surface. Perhaps it is a byproduct of nuclear
reactors being used to produce material for hydrogen bombs in the
U.S. nuclear arsenal?

The answer to this question is in the link you elided and apparently did
not read. Research first, Research Second, Post third.

Oh, wonderful. They're going to make their own Helium-3 from deuterium
in their plasma accelerator. In that case, their process will be effectively
equivalent to the much harder to achieve D-D fusion,

There is data on the Deuterium + proton -> He3 reaction.

@article{d_p_he,
author={R.Bilger, W.Brodowski, H.Calen, H.Clement, C.Ekstrom,
G.Faeldt, K.Fransson, L.Gustafsson, B.Hoeistad,
A.Johansson, T.Johansson, K.Kilian, S.Kullander,
A.Kupsc, G.Kurz, P.Marciniewski, B.Morosov,
A.Moertsell, W.Oelert, V.Renken, R.J.M.Y.Ruber,
B.Shwartz, J.Stepaniak, A.Sukhanov,
P.Thoerngren-Engblom, A.Turowiecki, G.J.Wagner,
Z.Wilhelmi, C.Wilkin, J.Zabierowski, J.Zlomanczuk},
journal={Physical Review, Part C, Nuclear Physics, Vol.65},
title = {Measurement of the pd -> 3He η Cross Section between 930
and 1100MeV},
year={2002},
volume={65},
doi = {http://dx.doi.org/10.1103/PhysRevC.65.044608},
pages = {44608}
}

The cross-sections reported are rather low, between 16 and 20
nanobarns, as reported by https://www-nds.iaea.org/exfor/
(which is where I found this).

Offhand, I didn't find any data on D-D fusion, but if you
can judge it that way, you probably have it.

[Quadibloc]

Post by Thomas Koenig
The cross-sections reported are rather low, between 16 and 20
nanobarns,

And, of course, it's not as if tritium decays into Helium-3 by beta emissions,
so that you could bombard deuterium with neutrons, which, not being positively
charged like deuterium nuclei, wouldn't repel them, making the cross-section higher.

Oh, no, tritium *does* decay into Helium-3. So you could make Helium-3 the
same basic way you make plutonium or U-233.

John Savard

[J. Clarke]

On Wed, 28 Jul 2021 22:46:44 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc

Post by Quadibloc

Post by Thomas Koenig
The cross-sections reported are rather low, between 16 and 20
nanobarns,

And, of course, it's not as if tritium decays into Helium-3 by beta emissions,
so that you could bombard deuterium with neutrons, which, not being positively
charged like deuterium nuclei, wouldn't repel them, making the cross-section higher.
Oh, no, tritium *does* decay into Helium-3. So you could make Helium-3 the
same basic way you make plutonium or U-233.

You mean sticking it in a fission reactor?

[Thomas Koenig]

Post by Quadibloc

Post by Thomas Koenig
The cross-sections reported are rather low, between 16 and 20
nanobarns,

And, of course, it's not as if tritium decays into Helium-3 by beta emissions,
so that you could bombard deuterium with neutrons, which, not being positively
charged like deuterium nuclei, wouldn't repel them, making the cross-section higher.

Hm, I don't find any data on that, offhand.

You can get He-3 by reaction of two Deuterium nuclei, there is
ample data on that.

However, the usual method is https://www.iter.org/mach/TritiumBreeding
by bombarding Lithium with neutrons (which are also released by
Deuterium - Tritium fusion).

Post by Quadibloc
Oh, no, tritium *does* decay into Helium-3. So you could make Helium-3 the
same basic way you make plutonium or U-233.

[Quadibloc]

And then they are going to "recover" He3, which since after the fusion
reaction is over has become He4, is quite a trick.

I don't think that they're claiming to have invented *perpetual motion*.

It is not at all surprising that a fusion reaction will fail to fuse 100%
of the nuclei presented to it, so in the waste Helium-4 there no doubt
will be some _leftover_ Helium-3 present that it might be economical
to recover with a centrifuge or some such before using the Helium-4
(if it isn't radioactive due to other contaminants too difficult to
remove) to fill balloons.

John Savard

[Quadibloc]

Pretty much every company promising something that been "20 years
away" for 50+ years, fusion power, flying cars, 200 mpg engines,
whatever, has never sold anything except their stock. Hell, even
Lockheed Skunkworks has played the game.
There's no reason to believe this will be any different.

Well, they _are_ spending some of their own money to break ground
for a facility... part of me says you're right, but part of me is very
cautiously optimistic.

Of course, even if their intentions are honest, failure is possible.
And probably likely as well.

John Savard

[Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha]

On Wednesday, July 28, 2021 at 4:05:22 PM UTC-6, Jibini Kula

Pretty much every company promising something that been "20
years away" for 50+ years, fusion power, flying cars, 200 mpg
engines, whatever, has never sold anything except their stock.
Hell, even Lockheed Skunkworks has played the game.
There's no reason to believe this will be any different.

Well, they _are_ spending some of their own money to break
ground for a facility...

Heh. All good scams require a little seed money to lure the marks in.

part of me says you're right, but part
of me is very cautiously optimistic.
Of course, even if their intentions are honest, failure is
possible. And probably likely as well.

IIRC, you believed we'd all have flying cars soon, too.
--
Terry Austin

Proof that Alan Baker is a liar and a fool, and even stupider than
Lynn:
https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/stats/sw-border-migration
(May 2019 total for people arrested for entering the United States
illegally is over 132,000 for just the southwest border.)

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB

[J. Clarke]

On Wed, 28 Jul 2021 15:22:10 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc

Post by Quadibloc

Pretty much every company promising something that been "20 years
away" for 50+ years, fusion power, flying cars, 200 mpg engines,
whatever, has never sold anything except their stock. Hell, even
Lockheed Skunkworks has played the game.
There's no reason to believe this will be any different.

Well, they _are_ spending some of their own money to break ground
for a facility... part of me says you're right, but part of me is very
cautiously optimistic.
Of course, even if their intentions are honest, failure is possible.
And probably likely as well.

I remember being informed sneeringly that Toyota was going to have a
cold-fusion powered car on the market by (IIRC) the year 2000. Still
waiting.

[Paul S Person]

Post by Scott Lurndal

Post by Paul S Person
On Tue, 27 Jul 2021 18:26:16 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc

Post by Quadibloc

it could just be the tip of a "stupid" iceberg. If this fails to have
any real effect will they start outlawing any power supply over 400
watts?

That sort of thing is always possible. But I don't want to be
over-sensitive to such possibilities, on the grounds that it would
be hypocritical to accept government regulation of what other
people do, but not what I do.
Of course, what I'd really like is for them to start building nice
carbon-free nuclear power plants instead of restricting energy
use. But, of course, not on the San Andreas fault, which is a
problem given the current anti-nuclear hysteria (that is, other
states might not accept additional nuclear capacity to meet
California's energy needs).

If I can believe my eyes, Everett will be getting a /fusion/ power
<https://www.king5.com/article/tech/science/environment/clean-energy-power-plant-new-fusion-technology-breaks-ground-everett-helion-shell-energy/281-f87735b7-35c1-4740-ad47-a84cbdb911d8>
and some new, presumably well-paying, jobs.
Whether it ever actually generates power, and how long it takes,
remains to be seen.

https://www.helionenergy.com/faq/
1) We utilize a pulsed fusion system. This helps us overcome the hardest physics
challenges, keeps our fusion device smaller than other approaches, and allows
us to adjust the power output based on need.
2) Our system is built to directly recover electricity. Just like regenerative
braking in an electric car, our system is built to recover all unused and
new electromagnetic energy efficiently. Other fusion systems heat water to
create steam to turn a turbine which loses a lot of energy in the process.
3) We use deuterium and helium-3 (D-³He) as fuel. Helium-3 is a cleaner,
higher octane fuel. This helps keep our system small and efficient.
Time will tell. Kudos if they make it work at greater than break-even.

I want to thank everyone for their research on this.

And to say that, yes, it does sound like ... well, not a /scam/
perhaps ... but like a come-on for investors who want to get In At The
Bottom.

Who knows? It might even turn into a Ponzi scheme! What fun!

Meanwhile, IIRC, a European Tokamak is nearing completion and being
turned on and, after another 10 or 15 years of slowly ramping the
thing up, might be stably producing more power than it takes to run
it. Maybe.

[Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha]

Post by Paul S Person

Post by Scott Lurndal

Post by Paul S Person
On Tue, 27 Jul 2021 18:26:16 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc

Post by Quadibloc

it could just be the tip of a "stupid" iceberg. If this
fails to have any real effect will they start outlawing any
power supply over 400 watts?

That sort of thing is always possible. But I don't want to be
over-sensitive to such possibilities, on the grounds that it
would be hypocritical to accept government regulation of what
other people do, but not what I do.
Of course, what I'd really like is for them to start building
nice carbon-free nuclear power plants instead of restricting
energy use. But, of course, not on the San Andreas fault,
which is a problem given the current anti-nuclear hysteria
(that is, other states might not accept additional nuclear
capacity to meet California's energy needs).

If I can believe my eyes, Everett will be getting a /fusion/
<https://www.king5.com/article/tech/science/environment/clean-en
ergy-power-plant-new-fusion-technology-breaks-ground-everett-hel
ion-shell-energy/281-f87735b7-35c1-4740-ad47-a84cbdb911d8> and
some new, presumably well-paying, jobs.
Whether it ever actually generates power, and how long it
takes, remains to be seen.

https://www.helionenergy.com/faq/
Our (Helion) approach does three major things differently from
1) We utilize a pulsed fusion system. This helps us overcome the hardest physics
challenges, keeps our fusion device smaller than other
approaches, and allows us to adjust the power output based on
need.
2) Our system is built to directly recover electricity. Just
like regenerative
braking in an electric car, our system is built to recover
all unused and new electromagnetic energy efficiently. Other
fusion systems heat water to create steam to turn a turbine
which loses a lot of energy in the process.
3) We use deuterium and helium-3 (D-³He) as fuel. Helium-3 is a cleaner,
higher octane fuel. This helps keep our system small and
efficient.
Time will tell. Kudos if they make it work at greater than
break-even.

I want to thank everyone for their research on this.
And to say that, yes, it does sound like ... well, not a /scam/
perhaps ... but like a come-on for investors who want to get In
At The Bottom.
Who knows? It might even turn into a Ponzi scheme! What fun!
Meanwhile, IIRC, a European Tokamak is nearing completion and
being turned on and, after another 10 or 15 years of slowly
ramping the thing up, might be stably producing more power than
it takes to run it. Maybe.

Only 20 years away, and has been for 75 years.

Government funded projects like that are about pork barrel
politics, and science rarely, if ever, gets done, and then only by
accident.
--
Terry Austin

Proof that Alan Baker is a liar and a fool, and even stupider than
Lynn:
https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/stats/sw-border-migration
(May 2019 total for people arrested for entering the United States
illegally is over 132,000 for just the southwest border.)

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB

[Paul S Person]

On Thu, 29 Jul 2021 09:27:20 -0700, Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha

Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha

Post by Paul S Person

Post by Scott Lurndal

Post by Paul S Person
On Tue, 27 Jul 2021 18:26:16 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc

Post by Quadibloc

it could just be the tip of a "stupid" iceberg. If this
fails to have any real effect will they start outlawing any
power supply over 400 watts?

That sort of thing is always possible. But I don't want to be
over-sensitive to such possibilities, on the grounds that it
would be hypocritical to accept government regulation of what
other people do, but not what I do.
Of course, what I'd really like is for them to start building
nice carbon-free nuclear power plants instead of restricting
energy use. But, of course, not on the San Andreas fault,
which is a problem given the current anti-nuclear hysteria
(that is, other states might not accept additional nuclear
capacity to meet California's energy needs).

If I can believe my eyes, Everett will be getting a /fusion/
<https://www.king5.com/article/tech/science/environment/clean-en
ergy-power-plant-new-fusion-technology-breaks-ground-everett-hel
ion-shell-energy/281-f87735b7-35c1-4740-ad47-a84cbdb911d8> and
some new, presumably well-paying, jobs.
Whether it ever actually generates power, and how long it
takes, remains to be seen.

https://www.helionenergy.com/faq/
1) We utilize a pulsed fusion system. This helps us overcome the hardest physics
challenges, keeps our fusion device smaller than other
approaches, and allows us to adjust the power output based on
need.
2) Our system is built to directly recover electricity. Just
like regenerative
braking in an electric car, our system is built to recover
all unused and new electromagnetic energy efficiently. Other
fusion systems heat water to create steam to turn a turbine
which loses a lot of energy in the process.
3) We use deuterium and helium-3 (D-³He) as fuel. Helium-3 is a cleaner,
higher octane fuel. This helps keep our system small and
efficient.
Time will tell. Kudos if they make it work at greater than
break-even.

I want to thank everyone for their research on this.
And to say that, yes, it does sound like ... well, not a /scam/
perhaps ... but like a come-on for investors who want to get In
At The Bottom.
Who knows? It might even turn into a Ponzi scheme! What fun!
Meanwhile, IIRC, a European Tokamak is nearing completion and
being turned on and, after another 10 or 15 years of slowly
ramping the thing up, might be stably producing more power than
it takes to run it. Maybe.

Only 20 years away, and has been for 75 years.
Government funded projects like that are about pork barrel
politics, and science rarely, if ever, gets done, and then only by
accident.

I suspect you are referring to the European Tokamak, as the Everett
plant is (AFAIK) not gummint funded. The article was touting it as
private enterprise winning again! Like with the development of space
rockets that /actually land on their tail/.

The Everett project should pump a lot of money into the economy for a
decade or so, at least. If it works, that would be even better.

[Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha]

Post by Paul S Person
On Thu, 29 Jul 2021 09:27:20 -0700, Jibini Kula Tumbili

Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha

Post by Paul S Person

Post by Scott Lurndal

Post by Paul S Person
On Tue, 27 Jul 2021 18:26:16 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc

On Tuesday, July 27, 2021 at 7:20:49 PM UTC-6, Magewolf

it could just be the tip of a "stupid" iceberg. If this
fails to have any real effect will they start outlawing
any power supply over 400 watts?

That sort of thing is always possible. But I don't want to
be over-sensitive to such possibilities, on the grounds that
it would be hypocritical to accept government regulation of
what other people do, but not what I do.
Of course, what I'd really like is for them to start
building nice carbon-free nuclear power plants instead of
restricting energy use. But, of course, not on the San
Andreas fault, which is a problem given the current
anti-nuclear hysteria (that is, other states might not
accept additional nuclear capacity to meet California's
energy needs).

If I can believe my eyes, Everett will be getting a /fusion/
power plant ... or, at least, a building intended to hold
<https://www.king5.com/article/tech/science/environment/clean-
en
ergy-power-plant-new-fusion-technology-breaks-ground-everett-h
el ion-shell-energy/281-f87735b7-35c1-4740-ad47-a84cbdb911d8>
and some new, presumably well-paying, jobs.
Whether it ever actually generates power, and how long it
takes, remains to be seen.

https://www.helionenergy.com/faq/
1) We utilize a pulsed fusion system. This helps us overcome
the hardest physics
challenges, keeps our fusion device smaller than other
approaches, and allows us to adjust the power output based
on need.
2) Our system is built to directly recover electricity. Just
like regenerative
braking in an electric car, our system is built to recover
all unused and new electromagnetic energy efficiently.
Other fusion systems heat water to create steam to turn a
turbine which loses a lot of energy in the process.
3) We use deuterium and helium-3 (D-³He) as fuel. Helium-3 is a cleaner,
higher octane fuel. This helps keep our system small and
efficient.
Time will tell. Kudos if they make it work at greater than
break-even.

I want to thank everyone for their research on this.
And to say that, yes, it does sound like ... well, not a
/scam/ perhaps ... but like a come-on for investors who want
to get In At The Bottom.
Who knows? It might even turn into a Ponzi scheme! What fun!
Meanwhile, IIRC, a European Tokamak is nearing completion and
being turned on and, after another 10 or 15 years of slowly
ramping the thing up, might be stably producing more power
than it takes to run it. Maybe.

Only 20 years away, and has been for 75 years.
Government funded projects like that are about pork barrel
politics, and science rarely, if ever, gets done, and then only
by accident.

I suspect you are referring to the European Tokamak, as the
Everett plant is (AFAIK) not gummint funded.

I do not believe for one second that this "privately funded" effort
does not involved tax dollars somewhere.

Post by Paul S Person
The article was
touting it as private enterprise winning again! Like with the
development of space rockets that /actually land on their tail/.

In the same way that SpaceX is "privately funded," but couldn't
exist in any recognizable form with contracts from . . . taxpayer
funded NASA.

Post by Paul S Person
The Everett project should pump a lot of money into the economy
for a decade or so, at least. If it works, that would be even
better.

20 years away, and has been for 75 years. I'll believe it when I
see it.
--
Terry Austin

Proof that Alan Baker is a liar and a fool, and even stupider than
Lynn:
https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/stats/sw-border-migration
(May 2019 total for people arrested for entering the United States
illegally is over 132,000 for just the southwest border.)

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB

[Quadibloc]

But hypocrisy is a core value of the left! You're not being a good
little sheeple today.

Just a few days after you posted this, my new chest freezer arrived.

And so I finally found a reason to agree with you.

Although I think that global warming is a bad idea, and I recognize the need
to avoid damaging the ozone layer, while changing from chlorinated flurocarbons
to fluorocarbons to reduce the danger to the ozone layer was acceptable...

changing from fluorocarbons, because they're greenhouse gases, to cyclopentane
as a refrigerant, with an attendant risk of fire and explosion, is going further in
respect of the environment than I would prefer.

So whether one calls it "hypocrisy" or "setting sensible priorities", I can't
endorse liberal ideological purity.

John Savard

[[e-mail]]

Post by Quadibloc

But hypocrisy is a core value of the left! You're not being a good
little sheeple today.

Just a few days after you posted this, my new chest freezer arrived.
And so I finally found a reason to agree with you.
Although I think that global warming is a bad idea, and I recognize the need
to avoid damaging the ozone layer, while changing from chlorinated flurocarbons
to fluorocarbons to reduce the danger to the ozone layer was acceptable...
changing from fluorocarbons, because they're greenhouse gases, to cyclopentane
as a refrigerant, with an attendant risk of fire and explosion, is going further in
respect of the environment than I would prefer.
So whether one calls it "hypocrisy" or "setting sensible priorities", I can't
endorse liberal ideological purity.

At least we haven't gone back to ammonia as a refrigerant. How families used
to wake up dead.

Pt

[[e-mail]]

Post by ***@gmail.com

Post by Quadibloc

But hypocrisy is a core value of the left! You're not being a good
little sheeple today.

Just a few days after you posted this, my new chest freezer arrived.
And so I finally found a reason to agree with you.
Although I think that global warming is a bad idea, and I recognize the need
to avoid damaging the ozone layer, while changing from chlorinated flurocarbons
to fluorocarbons to reduce the danger to the ozone layer was acceptable...
changing from fluorocarbons, because they're greenhouse gases, to cyclopentane
as a refrigerant, with an attendant risk of fire and explosion, is going further in
respect of the environment than I would prefer.
So whether one calls it "hypocrisy" or "setting sensible priorities", I can't
endorse liberal ideological purity.

At least we haven't gone back to ammonia as a refrigerant. How families used

Autocorrect strike again!

Post by ***@gmail.com
to wake up dead. ^whole families...
Pt

[Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha]

On Thursday, July 29, 2021 at 10:40:27 PM UTC-4, Quadibloc

On Wednesday, July 28, 2021 at 10:17:24 AM UTC-6, Jibini Kula

But hypocrisy is a core value of the left! You're not being a
good little sheeple today.

Just a few days after you posted this, my new chest freezer
arrived.
And so I finally found a reason to agree with you.
Although I think that global warming is a bad idea, and I
recognize the need to avoid damaging the ozone layer, while
changing from chlorinated flurocarbons to fluorocarbons to
reduce the danger to the ozone layer was acceptable...
changing from fluorocarbons, because they're greenhouse gases,
to cyclopentane as a refrigerant, with an attendant risk of
fire and explosion, is going further in respect of the
environment than I would prefer.
So whether one calls it "hypocrisy" or "setting sensible
priorities", I can't endorse liberal ideological purity.

At least we haven't gone back to ammonia as a refrigerant. How
families used to wake up dead.

For some of the extreme left, that would be a desirable result.
--
Terry Austin

Proof that Alan Baker is a liar and a fool, and even stupider than
Lynn:
https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/stats/sw-border-migration
(May 2019 total for people arrested for entering the United States
illegally is over 132,000 for just the southwest border.)

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB

[Alan Baker]

Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha

On Thursday, July 29, 2021 at 10:40:27 PM UTC-4, Quadibloc

On Wednesday, July 28, 2021 at 10:17:24 AM UTC-6, Jibini Kula

But hypocrisy is a core value of the left! You're not being a
good little sheeple today.

Just a few days after you posted this, my new chest freezer
arrived.
And so I finally found a reason to agree with you.
Although I think that global warming is a bad idea, and I
recognize the need to avoid damaging the ozone layer, while
changing from chlorinated flurocarbons to fluorocarbons to
reduce the danger to the ozone layer was acceptable...
changing from fluorocarbons, because they're greenhouse gases,
to cyclopentane as a refrigerant, with an attendant risk of
fire and explosion, is going further in respect of the
environment than I would prefer.
So whether one calls it "hypocrisy" or "setting sensible
priorities", I can't endorse liberal ideological purity.

At least we haven't gone back to ammonia as a refrigerant. How
families used to wake up dead.

For some of the extreme left, that would be a desirable result.

Get the mental help you so very much need, dude.

[Quadibloc]

Post by Alan Baker

Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
For some of the extreme left, that would be a desirable result.

Get the mental help you so very much need, dude.

It certainly is true that if by "extreme left" you mean people like
Alexandria Occasio-Cortez, she certainly doesn't want people to
fail to wake up because of ammonia in refrigerators.

However, there are some people into "deep ecology" who wouldn't
mind some natural disaster thinning out the human race so that the
rest of the Earth's ecosphere could get on with healing. So, while
he has other behaviors which might lead to your conclusion, this
statement is not delusional.

John Savard

[J. Clarke]

On Fri, 30 Jul 2021 15:17:47 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc

Post by Quadibloc

Post by Alan Baker

Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
For some of the extreme left, that would be a desirable result.

Get the mental help you so very much need, dude.

It certainly is true that if by "extreme left" you mean people like
Alexandria Occasio-Cortez, she certainly doesn't want people to
fail to wake up because of ammonia in refrigerators.

Can she even _spell_ "ammonia"?

Post by Quadibloc
However, there are some people into "deep ecology" who wouldn't
mind some natural disaster thinning out the human race so that the
rest of the Earth's ecosphere could get on with healing. So, while
he has other behaviors which might lead to your conclusion, this
statement is not delusional.
John Savard

[Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha]

Post by J. Clarke
On Fri, 30 Jul 2021 15:17:47 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc

Post by Quadibloc

On 2021-07-30 12:01 p.m., Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha

Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
For some of the extreme left, that would be a desirable
result.

Get the mental help you so very much need, dude.

It certainly is true that if by "extreme left" you mean people
like Alexandria Occasio-Cortez, she certainly doesn't want
people to fail to wake up because of ammonia in refrigerators.

Can she even _spell_ "ammonia"?

Only if her handles put it on the teleprompter.
--
Terry Austin

Proof that Alan Baker is a liar and a fool, and even stupider than
Lynn:
https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/stats/sw-border-migration
(May 2019 total for people arrested for entering the United States
illegally is over 132,000 for just the southwest border.)

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB

[Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha]

Post by Quadibloc

On 2021-07-30 12:01 p.m., Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha

Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
For some of the extreme left, that would be a desirable
result.

Get the mental help you so very much need, dude.

It certainly is true that if by "extreme left" you mean people
like Alexandria Occasio-Cortez, she certainly doesn't want
people to fail to wake up because of ammonia in refrigerators.
However, there are some people into "deep ecology" who wouldn't
mind some natural disaster thinning out the human race so that
the rest of the Earth's ecosphere could get on with healing. So,
while he has other behaviors which might lead to your
conclusion, this statement is not delusional.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voluntary_Human_Extinction_Movement

Alan's projecting again. Sounds like he's off his meds.
--
Terry Austin

Proof that Alan Baker is a liar and a fool, and even stupider than
Lynn:
https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/stats/sw-border-migration
(May 2019 total for people arrested for entering the United States
illegally is over 132,000 for just the southwest border.)

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB

[[e-mail]]

Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha

On Thursday, July 29, 2021 at 10:40:27 PM UTC-4, Quadibloc

On Wednesday, July 28, 2021 at 10:17:24 AM UTC-6, Jibini Kula

But hypocrisy is a core value of the left! You're not being a
good little sheeple today.

Just a few days after you posted this, my new chest freezer
arrived.
And so I finally found a reason to agree with you.
Although I think that global warming is a bad idea, and I
recognize the need to avoid damaging the ozone layer, while
changing from chlorinated flurocarbons to fluorocarbons to
reduce the danger to the ozone layer was acceptable...
changing from fluorocarbons, because they're greenhouse gases,
to cyclopentane as a refrigerant, with an attendant risk of
fire and explosion, is going further in respect of the
environment than I would prefer.
So whether one calls it "hypocrisy" or "setting sensible
priorities", I can't endorse liberal ideological purity.

At least we haven't gone back to ammonia as a refrigerant. How
families used to wake up dead.

For some of the extreme left, that would be a desirable result.

Really? Got a cite? (Of course you don't. You never do.)

Extreme population reduction is a conspiracy theory usually placed
with the far right "New World Order".

Pt

[Quadibloc]

Post by ***@gmail.com
Extreme population reduction is a conspiracy theory usually placed
with the far right "New World Order".

But there are also extreme eco-fanatics who wouldn't mind a massive
human die-off; while their chief concern is not the victory of the proletariat
over the bourgeosie, they're still usually classed as being on the left,
however inaccurate that might be.

John Savard

[[e-mail]]

Post by Quadibloc

Post by ***@gmail.com
Extreme population reduction is a conspiracy theory usually placed
with the far right "New World Order".

But there are also extreme eco-fanatics who wouldn't mind a massive
human die-off; while their chief concern is not the victory of the proletariat
over the bourgeosie, they're still usually classed as being on the left,
however inaccurate that might be.

The eco fanatics exist (see the Voluntary Human Extinction movement), but
recently, they are being eclipsed by the idiots who claim that everyone getting
the COVID vaccines will all drop dead in 3 months/6 months/1 year/2 years
(the goalposts keep moving). If not that, they claim it will sterilize women.

Pt

[J. Clarke]

Post by ***@gmail.com

Post by Quadibloc

Post by ***@gmail.com
Extreme population reduction is a conspiracy theory usually placed
with the far right "New World Order".

But there are also extreme eco-fanatics who wouldn't mind a massive
human die-off; while their chief concern is not the victory of the proletariat
over the bourgeosie, they're still usually classed as being on the left,
however inaccurate that might be.

The eco fanatics exist (see the Voluntary Human Extinction movement), but
recently, they are being eclipsed by the idiots who claim that everyone getting
the COVID vaccines will all drop dead in 3 months/6 months/1 year/2 years
(the goalposts keep moving). If not that, they claim it will sterilize women.

Then there are the ones who think that being in the same room with
someone who _might_ have COVID is a death sentence, so it evens out.

Post by ***@gmail.com
Pt

[Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha]

Post by Quadibloc

Post by ***@gmail.com
Extreme population reduction is a conspiracy theory usually
placed with the far right "New World Order".

But there are also extreme eco-fanatics who wouldn't mind a
massive human die-off;

I am increasingly of the opinion that the powers that be in
California intend to literally make the state unliveable for anybody
but the obscenely wealthy and their indentured servants (who will
likely all be robots eventually). And they don't seem to much care
about how they get rid of all the poors.

Post by Quadibloc
while their chief concern is not the
victory of the proletariat over the bourgeosie, they're still
usually classed as being on the left, however inaccurate that
might be.

Nobody currently classified (by themselves or others) as "the left"
is even remotely close to traditional liberal poltiical ideology, any
more than "the right" are traditional conservatives.
--
Terry Austin

Proof that Alan Baker is a liar and a fool, and even stupider than
Lynn:
https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/stats/sw-border-migration
(May 2019 total for people arrested for entering the United States
illegally is over 132,000 for just the southwest border.)

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB

[Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha]

On Friday, July 30, 2021 at 3:01:16 PM UTC-4, Jibini Kula

Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha

On Thursday, July 29, 2021 at 10:40:27 PM UTC-4, Quadibloc

On Wednesday, July 28, 2021 at 10:17:24 AM UTC-6, Jibini

But hypocrisy is a core value of the left! You're not
being a good little sheeple today.

Just a few days after you posted this, my new chest freezer arrived.
And so I finally found a reason to agree with you.
Although I think that global warming is a bad idea, and I
recognize the need to avoid damaging the ozone layer, while
changing from chlorinated flurocarbons to fluorocarbons to
reduce the danger to the ozone layer was acceptable...
changing from fluorocarbons, because they're greenhouse
gases, to cyclopentane as a refrigerant, with an attendant
risk of fire and explosion, is going further in respect of
the environment than I would prefer.
So whether one calls it "hypocrisy" or "setting sensible
priorities", I can't endorse liberal ideological purity.

At least we haven't gone back to ammonia as a refrigerant.
How families used to wake up dead.

For some of the extreme left, that would be a desirable result.

Really? Got a cite? (Of course you don't. You never do.)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voluntary_Human_Extinction_Movement

Extreme population reduction is a conspiracy theory usually
placed with the far right "New World Order".

You really are as idiot. The VHE people have been around for
decades, and they're not kidding.
--
Terry Austin

Proof that Alan Baker is a liar and a fool, and even stupider than
Lynn:
https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/stats/sw-border-migration
(May 2019 total for people arrested for entering the United States
illegally is over 132,000 for just the southwest border.)

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB

[Lynn McGuire]

Post by Quadibloc

But hypocrisy is a core value of the left! You're not being a good
little sheeple today.

Just a few days after you posted this, my new chest freezer arrived.
And so I finally found a reason to agree with you.
Although I think that global warming is a bad idea, and I recognize the need
to avoid damaging the ozone layer, while changing from chlorinated flurocarbons
to fluorocarbons to reduce the danger to the ozone layer was acceptable...
changing from fluorocarbons, because they're greenhouse gases, to cyclopentane
as a refrigerant, with an attendant risk of fire and explosion, is going further in
respect of the environment than I would prefer.
So whether one calls it "hypocrisy" or "setting sensible priorities", I can't
endorse liberal ideological purity.
John Savard

Actually, we are heading towards using CO2 (carbon dioxide) as the next
major refrigerant. The only problem with using CO2 is that it does not
form a liquid until five atmospheres of pressure and it is poisonous to
humans above 15% of the atmosphere.

Lynn

[J. Clarke]

On Fri, 30 Jul 2021 17:56:54 -0500, Lynn McGuire

Post by Lynn McGuire

Post by Quadibloc

But hypocrisy is a core value of the left! You're not being a good
little sheeple today.

Just a few days after you posted this, my new chest freezer arrived.
And so I finally found a reason to agree with you.
Although I think that global warming is a bad idea, and I recognize the need
to avoid damaging the ozone layer, while changing from chlorinated flurocarbons
to fluorocarbons to reduce the danger to the ozone layer was acceptable...
changing from fluorocarbons, because they're greenhouse gases, to cyclopentane
as a refrigerant, with an attendant risk of fire and explosion, is going further in
respect of the environment than I would prefer.
So whether one calls it "hypocrisy" or "setting sensible priorities", I can't
endorse liberal ideological purity.
John Savard

Actually, we are heading towards using CO2 (carbon dioxide) as the next
major refrigerant. The only problem with using CO2 is that it does not
form a liquid until five atmospheres of pressure and it is poisonous to
humans above 15% of the atmosphere.

Not that much of a problem. R410a systems are normally tested at
400psi and operate well above 200 most of the time.

[J. Clarke]

On Tue, 27 Jul 2021 15:02:11 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc

Post by Quadibloc
California, along with Colorado, Hawai'i, Oregon, Vermont, and Washington state, have passed new laws mandating energy efficiency or usage standards for desktop computer systems.
It will no longer be enough to be Energy Star certified.
Thus, some higher-end pre-built computer systems may not be shipped to buyers in those states, or sold in those states.
Additional regulations will come into effect in early December.
https://www.theregister.com/2021/07/26/dell_energy_pcs/
https://wccftech.com/dell-unable-to-fulfill-alienware-aurora-ryzen-edition-orders-in-6-us-states-eco-hazard/
https://www.extremetech.com/computing/325163-alienware-claims-it-cant-sell-high-end-desktop-pcs-in-6-us-states
http://youtu.be/QcivEGigiGg

Why would this be bad news for Hal? It seems to have escaped your
notice that a Raspberry Pi is not a "high end desktop". And of course
the solution to this problem if you need significant computing power
is to buy low end servers instead.

[Quadibloc]

Why would this be bad news for Hal? It seems to have escaped your
notice that a Raspberry Pi is not a "high end desktop". And of course
the solution to this problem if you need significant computing power
is to buy low end servers instead.

What escaped my notice was that a Raspberry Pi was Hal's main or
only computer. Dorothy recently described what he did on the computer,
and it included levelling his alts, so that means he does game.

John Savard

[Dorothy J Heydt]

Post by Quadibloc

Why would this be bad news for Hal? It seems to have escaped your
notice that a Raspberry Pi is not a "high end desktop". And of course
the solution to this problem if you need significant computing power
is to buy low end servers instead.

What escaped my notice was that a Raspberry Pi was Hal's main or
only computer.

Oh, far from it. He has many many Pis and a PC that's about five
years old, plenty fast enough for LotRO.

Post by Quadibloc
Dorothy recently described what he did on the computer,
and it included levelling his alts, so that means he does game.

Yes. We both play The Lord of the Rings online, which is (please
note) fourteen years old, and not in need of a super whiz-bang
idles-at-whatever-horrid-number-it-was specialized gaming rig.

(we just logged out from doing a bunch of quests on our mains,
whereof if we do forty-five of them in a week, we get a lot of
valuable goodies.

(Valuable in the game, needless to say; can't sell it for real
money.)

[Dorothy J Heydt]

Post by Quadibloc
California, along with Colorado, Hawai'i, Oregon, Vermont, and
Washington state, have passed new laws mandating energy efficiency or
usage standards for desktop computer systems.
It will no longer be enough to be Energy Star certified.
Thus, some higher-end pre-built computer systems may not be shipped to
buyers in those states, or sold in those states.
Additional regulations will come into effect in early December.
https://www.theregister.com/2021/07/26/dell_energy_pcs/

Hal says, "Yeah I saw that." (He reads The Register every day:
they're nice, they're clean, they're British.)

He says, "I don't think it's going to affect me. They're talking
about top-of-the-line hotshot gaming computers. I don't need one
of those." My PC is eight years old now, his about five.

And as for all those zillions of Raspberry Pis, "Their energy
usage is minimal; the state will never object to them."

[Quadibloc]

Post by Dorothy J Heydt
My PC is eight years old now, his about five.

I had been using a five-year-old PC myself until a year or two ago; about
a year after I built my current system, I finally switched over to it for
daily use (it's always a pain to change systems, one's files and applications
are on the old one) when the hard drive on the old one started filling up.

I still have the old one close to hand for occasional use.

John Savard

[Dorothy J Heydt]

Post by Quadibloc

Post by Dorothy J Heydt
My PC is eight years old now, his about five.

I had been using a five-year-old PC myself until a year or two ago; about
a year after I built my current system, I finally switched over to it for
daily use (it's always a pain to change systems, one's files and applications
are on the old one) when the hard drive on the old one started filling up.

Painful. About a year ago (maybe two?) LotRO did a substantial
update, and while I was able to download it all, I wasn't able to
play it, my SSD got too full. So Hal got me a new, larger one,
and we took it down to the friendly neighborhood techie who
copied the entire contents of the old one onto the new one.

Post by Quadibloc
I still have the old one close to hand for occasional use.

Sensible.

[Kevrob]

Post by Quadibloc

Post by Dorothy J Heydt
My PC is eight years old now, his about five.

I had been using a five-year-old PC myself until a year or two ago; about
a year after I built my current system, I finally switched over to it for
daily use (it's always a pain to change systems, one's files and applications
are on the old one) when the hard drive on the old one started filling up.
I still have the old one close to hand for occasional use.

I may need to upgrade soon, if I snag a "work at home" job.
My ISP is going to put fiber-optic cable in my town, so I am
thinking of switching from DSL. I can justify all that if "it's for
work." I recently bought a 1 TB Seagate external drive so I can
backup everything prior to getting a new (or "new to me") machine
up and running. I've already transferred 40GB of media files from
my laptop and from some cloud locations to the external drive.
I have some others on USB sticks. It's nice not to be bumping
up against drive capacity!

[J. Clarke]

Post by Kevrob

Post by Quadibloc

Post by Dorothy J Heydt
My PC is eight years old now, his about five.

I had been using a five-year-old PC myself until a year or two ago; about
a year after I built my current system, I finally switched over to it for
daily use (it's always a pain to change systems, one's files and applications
are on the old one) when the hard drive on the old one started filling up.
I still have the old one close to hand for occasional use.

I may need to upgrade soon, if I snag a "work at home" job.
My ISP is going to put fiber-optic cable in my town, so I am
thinking of switching from DSL. I can justify all that if "it's for
work." I recently bought a 1 TB Seagate external drive so I can
backup everything prior to getting a new (or "new to me") machine
up and running. I've already transferred 40GB of media files from
my laptop and from some cloud locations to the external drive.
I have some others on USB sticks. It's nice not to be bumping
up against drive capacity!

FWIW, I found out yesterday that my employer provides 5 terabytes of
OneDrive (I had previously thought it was one terabyte). Of course it
doesn't help if you don't have fast internet. And a "work from home"
job may include the computer--many companies want their employees to
have machines that the company controls.

[Dorothy J Heydt]

Post by Quadibloc

Post by Kevrob

Post by Quadibloc

Post by Dorothy J Heydt
My PC is eight years old now, his about five.

I had been using a five-year-old PC myself until a year or two ago; about
a year after I built my current system, I finally switched over to it for
daily use (it's always a pain to change systems, one's files and

applications

Post by Kevrob

Post by Quadibloc
are on the old one) when the hard drive on the old one started filling up.
I still have the old one close to hand for occasional use.

I may need to upgrade soon, if I snag a "work at home" job.
My ISP is going to put fiber-optic cable in my town, so I am
thinking of switching from DSL. I can justify all that if "it's for
work." I recently bought a 1 TB Seagate external drive so I can
backup everything prior to getting a new (or "new to me") machine
up and running. I've already transferred 40GB of media files from
my laptop and from some cloud locations to the external drive.
I have some others on USB sticks. It's nice not to be bumping
up against drive capacity!

FWIW, I found out yesterday that my employer provides 5 terabytes of
OneDrive (I had previously thought it was one terabyte). Of course it
doesn't help if you don't have fast internet. And a "work from home"
job may include the computer--many companies want their employees to
have machines that the company controls.

My son-in-law has been working from home since, I *think*,
slightly before Governor Newsom invoked the lockdown. I remember
his going in one day saying he would be home late--and he was--
helping set up facilities for WFH for practically everybody in
the shop. Yesterday, he spent another long day on-site fixing
... something. I can ask him when he gets up and comes
downstairs--or maybe he told Hal just what he was going to do.

(N.B. I can't go upstairs and ask him; it's a flight of 17 steps
and I can't climb it any more.)

[Kevrob]

Post by J. Clarke

Post by Kevrob

Post by Quadibloc

Post by Dorothy J Heydt
My PC is eight years old now, his about five.

I had been using a five-year-old PC myself until a year or two ago; about
a year after I built my current system, I finally switched over to it for
daily use (it's always a pain to change systems, one's files and applications
are on the old one) when the hard drive on the old one started filling up.
I still have the old one close to hand for occasional use.

I may need to upgrade soon, if I snag a "work at home" job.
My ISP is going to put fiber-optic cable in my town, so I am
thinking of switching from DSL. I can justify all that if "it's for
work." I recently bought a 1 TB Seagate external drive so I can
backup everything prior to getting a new (or "new to me") machine
up and running. I've already transferred 40GB of media files from
my laptop and from some cloud locations to the external drive.
I have some others on USB sticks. It's nice not to be bumping
up against drive capacity!

FWIW, I found out yesterday that my employer provides 5 terabytes of
OneDrive (I had previously thought it was one terabyte). Of course it
doesn't help if you don't have fast internet. And a "work from home"
job may include the computer--many companies want their employees to
have machines that the company controls.

We had remote CSRs at my old job who used company equipment.
When a bad winter storm was predicted we'd distribute company
laptops to employees who were willing to temporarily work from home,
also. That would have kept the department running during the pandemic,
had the location in our state not been shut down at the end of 2019.
I was never eligible to work from home, because I had permissions
on some accounts that the company wouldn't allow to be used remotely.
There had to be a supervisor onsite to execute those functions the home
reps couldn't access, which meant me, or, theoretically, my supv - if he
could even remember how to do it!

I've seen some WFH job listings where hardware requirements were
listed, and others where it was explicitly stated that equipment would
be provided. I think I'd be more comfortable working on the company's
laptop and keeping my own data on my own machine.

--
Kevin R

[Scott Lurndal]

Post by Kevrob
I've seen some WFH job listings where hardware requirements were
listed, and others where it was explicitly stated that equipment would
be provided. I think I'd be more comfortable working on the company's
laptop and keeping my own data on my own machine.

Any company that allowed a remote user to use their own equipement
would be foolish in the extreme. As it is, Windows is bad enough
when locked down - the consumer versions are vile pits of security
nightmares.

[Kevrob]

Post by Scott Lurndal

Post by Kevrob
I've seen some WFH job listings where hardware requirements were
listed, and others where it was explicitly stated that equipment would
be provided. I think I'd be more comfortable working on the company's
laptop and keeping my own data on my own machine.

Any company that allowed a remote user to use their own equipement
would be foolish in the extreme. As it is, Windows is bad enough
when locked down - the consumer versions are vile pits of security
nightmares.

That's one more screen that will send recruitment emails into the
bit bucket. One of the recruiting emails I recently received would
have had me dropping beaucoup bucks at the local Best Buy for
a dual screen set-up. I've used those at work, so it's not an unfamiliar
configuration. Popular with...gamers? Day traders? I don't do anything
at home so complicated that I'd need a second screen.

[Dorothy J Heydt]

Post by Kevrob

Post by Scott Lurndal

Post by Kevrob
I've seen some WFH job listings where hardware requirements were
listed, and others where it was explicitly stated that equipment would
be provided. I think I'd be more comfortable working on the company's
laptop and keeping my own data on my own machine.

Any company that allowed a remote user to use their own equipement
would be foolish in the extreme. As it is, Windows is bad enough
when locked down - the consumer versions are vile pits of security
nightmares.

That's one more screen that will send recruitment emails into the
bit bucket. One of the recruiting emails I recently received would
have had me dropping beaucoup bucks at the local Best Buy for
a dual screen set-up. I've used those at work, so it's not an unfamiliar
configuration. Popular with...gamers? Day traders? I don't do anything
at home so complicated that I'd need a second screen.

Going back half a topic: I haven't had a chance to ask my
son-in-law whether (a) he's going to go on working from home and
(b) whether he has a company-provided computer to WFH with. So I
asked Hal.

He answered that (a) so far as he knows, Walkyr's going to be WFH
indefinitely; he was off on the site yesterday and again today,
disassembling desks and other items, which looks to me as if he's
never going to go back to the site (which is in San Francisco)
again, which will suit him just fine; and (b), yes, he's using a
company-provided laptop.

So that's good, I guess.

[J. Clarke]

Post by Kevrob

Post by Scott Lurndal

Post by Kevrob
I've seen some WFH job listings where hardware requirements were
listed, and others where it was explicitly stated that equipment would
be provided. I think I'd be more comfortable working on the company's
laptop and keeping my own data on my own machine.

Any company that allowed a remote user to use their own equipement
would be foolish in the extreme. As it is, Windows is bad enough
when locked down - the consumer versions are vile pits of security
nightmares.

That's one more screen that will send recruitment emails into the
bit bucket. One of the recruiting emails I recently received would
have had me dropping beaucoup bucks at the local Best Buy for
a dual screen set-up. I've used those at work, so it's not an unfamiliar
configuration. Popular with...gamers? Day traders? I don't do anything
at home so complicated that I'd need a second screen.

FWIW, I can work using my own machine, but only over a VDI, which has
advantages and disadvantages.

[Kevrob]

Post by J. Clarke

Post by Kevrob

Post by Scott Lurndal

Post by Kevrob
I've seen some WFH job listings where hardware requirements were
listed, and others where it was explicitly stated that equipment would
be provided. I think I'd be more comfortable working on the company's
laptop and keeping my own data on my own machine.

Any company that allowed a remote user to use their own equipement
would be foolish in the extreme. As it is, Windows is bad enough
when locked down - the consumer versions are vile pits of security
nightmares.

That's one more screen that will send recruitment emails into the
bit bucket. One of the recruiting emails I recently received would
have had me dropping beaucoup bucks at the local Best Buy for
a dual screen set-up. I've used those at work, so it's not an unfamiliar
configuration. Popular with...gamers? Day traders? I don't do anything
at home so complicated that I'd need a second screen.

FWIW, I can work using my own machine, but only over a VDI, which has
advantages and disadvantages.

Aha! I knew that our home reps used Citrix to connect to our server,
so they explained VDI to me.

https://www.citrix.com/solutions/vdi-and-daas/what-is-vdi-virtual-desktop-infrastructure.html

Reminds me of using Telnet to access a mainframe or minicomputer
remotely, long and long ago. {70s and 80s for me, when I was a student.}

[J. Clarke]

Post by Kevrob

Post by Scott Lurndal

Post by Kevrob
I've seen some WFH job listings where hardware requirements were
listed, and others where it was explicitly stated that equipment would
be provided. I think I'd be more comfortable working on the company's
laptop and keeping my own data on my own machine.

Any company that allowed a remote user to use their own equipement
would be foolish in the extreme. As it is, Windows is bad enough
when locked down - the consumer versions are vile pits of security
nightmares.

That's one more screen that will send recruitment emails into the
bit bucket. One of the recruiting emails I recently received would
have had me dropping beaucoup bucks at the local Best Buy for
a dual screen set-up. I've used those at work, so it's not an unfamiliar
configuration. Popular with...gamers? Day traders? I don't do anything
at home so complicated that I'd need a second screen.

Just about anybody who has lived with one for a while. My work setup
is dual screen, my home setup is a single 49" 4K screen. Duals have
the advantage that you can put something on one screen and it will
stay there while you do stuff on the other screen. Eventually I'm
going to put another 4K on my home system.

[J. Clarke]

On Tue, 27 Jul 2021 18:19:38 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc

Post by Quadibloc

Post by Dorothy J Heydt
My PC is eight years old now, his about five.

I had been using a five-year-old PC myself until a year or two ago; about
a year after I built my current system, I finally switched over to it for
daily use (it's always a pain to change systems, one's files and applications
are on the old one) when the hard drive on the old one started filling up.
I still have the old one close to hand for occasional use.

My current gaming rig is about 5 years old. I'll probably be forced
to a new one eventually--Microsoft has rigged Windows 11 so it's not
supposed to run on this one. Of course Windows 10 isn't supposed to
run on my old Thinkpad but it runs fine nonetheless.

[Dorothy J Heydt]

Post by J. Clarke
On Tue, 27 Jul 2021 18:19:38 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc

Post by Quadibloc

Post by Dorothy J Heydt
My PC is eight years old now, his about five.

I had been using a five-year-old PC myself until a year or two ago; about
a year after I built my current system, I finally switched over to it for
daily use (it's always a pain to change systems, one's files and applications
are on the old one) when the hard drive on the old one started filling up.
I still have the old one close to hand for occasional use.

My current gaming rig is about 5 years old. I'll probably be forced
to a new one eventually--Microsoft has rigged Windows 11 so it's not
supposed to run on this one. Of course Windows 10 isn't supposed to
run on my old Thinkpad but it runs fine nonetheless.

Aw, do you have a Thinkpad? I had one once and I loved it. But
its power supply died and we had to get me a PC (not the one I
have now).

[J. Clarke]

Post by Dorothy J Heydt

Post by J. Clarke
On Tue, 27 Jul 2021 18:19:38 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc

Post by Quadibloc

Post by Dorothy J Heydt
My PC is eight years old now, his about five.

I had been using a five-year-old PC myself until a year or two ago; about
a year after I built my current system, I finally switched over to it for
daily use (it's always a pain to change systems, one's files and applications
are on the old one) when the hard drive on the old one started filling up.
I still have the old one close to hand for occasional use.

My current gaming rig is about 5 years old. I'll probably be forced
to a new one eventually--Microsoft has rigged Windows 11 so it's not
supposed to run on this one. Of course Windows 10 isn't supposed to
run on my old Thinkpad but it runs fine nonetheless.

Aw, do you have a Thinkpad? I had one once and I loved it. But
its power supply died and we had to get me a PC (not the one I
have now).

I actually have two of them, an X60 tablet and an older one, I forget
the model, with a Pentium 200.

The X60 is one of the last IBMs, with the Core 2 Duo, bought on ebay
for cheap after my Gateway died the death. Lovely machine. Made me a
strong believer in the tablet concept--while I can type words pretty
fast, drawing a diagram with the mouse sucks.

[Quadibloc]

Post by J. Clarke
Microsoft has rigged Windows 11 so it's not
supposed to run on this one.

For those who haven't been following the excitement:

Microsoft's forthcoming Windows 11 operating system has some
hardware requirements which are incompatible with many PCs
out there perfectly capable of useful service.

It requires, the same as the version of OS X for Intel-based Macs,
the newer UEFI type of motherboard. In addition, it requires TPM 2.0,
basically a new feature that allows computers to run programs like
DVD and BluRay decoders while not exposing the internals of those
programs to hackers who would like to learn how to pirate videos -
as Microsoft intends to also use this feature to protect parts of
Windows to protect the operating system from viruses like
ransomware.

John Savard

[Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha]

Post by Quadibloc
it
requires TPM 2.0,

Sort of, maybe. Currently, it can be bypassed.
--
Terry Austin

Proof that Alan Baker is a liar and a fool, and even stupider than
Lynn:
https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/stats/sw-border-migration
(May 2019 total for people arrested for entering the United States
illegally is over 132,000 for just the southwest border.)

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB

[Torbjorn Lindgren]

Post by Quadibloc

Post by J. Clarke
Microsoft has rigged Windows 11 so it's not
supposed to run on this one.

Microsoft's forthcoming Windows 11 operating system has some
hardware requirements which are incompatible with many PCs
out there perfectly capable of useful service.
It requires, the same as the version of OS X for Intel-based Macs,
the newer UEFI type of motherboard. In addition, it requires TPM 2.0,

Note that the W11 TPM requirement accept "virtual" TPM that is
generated by the UEFI BIOS using the security "enclave" built into
*all* the cpus on the compatibility list. And we already know there's
going to be SOME exceptions to the TPM requirement, currently that's a
list of specific countries where it doesn't apply (due to goverment
mandates mostly).

It's also worth pointing out that a working TPM has been a hard
requirement for years now for OEM/SAs to be allowed to pre-install
Windows 10 (which they all do).

It's just DIY where it's not already mandated, the virtual TPM is
often disabled by default on consumer motherboards but since SA's also
use those motherboards it's available.

So if you do have a "supported" CPU in most cases it's just a question
of finding and enabling it in the BIOS. There are exceptions among the
older motherboards with supported CPUs but even those often have this.

And... while MS say it's a hard requirement and (somewhat!) enforce it
during testing they could easily change their mind.

Quite possibly more than once, I consider these kind of initial
announcements more of "trial balloons".


The list of supported CPUs will hit much more people since currently
you need a 8th generation Intel or Zen+ or later though MS has made
noises about possibly allowing 7th gen Intel and first generation Zen.

There's a LOT of 6th generation Intel (Skylake) still out there that's
perfectly fine machines and even 10th gen intel is only a minor
variant of Skylake...

OTOH, as you go back that far TPM 2.0 does get rare, so if they don't
change their mind it could be a big issue a few years down the line
(Win 10 now has a "free support ends" date somewhere in 2025).

If they do relax the TPM requirement it might end up like Windows 10
which technically require 4th generation Intel or newer, though Intel
3rd generation is allowed for Windows 8.x upgrades, but W10 will run
fine on Core2Quad's that PREDATE the entire "generation" numbering.

Or not, if they end up using an instruction not available on the older
chips (Sandy Bridge/AVX or Haswell/AVX2 is a few obvious possible pain
points).

[pyotr filipivich]

Post by Torbjorn Lindgren

Post by Quadibloc

Post by J. Clarke
Microsoft has rigged Windows 11 so it's not
supposed to run on this one.

Microsoft's forthcoming Windows 11 operating system has some
hardware requirements which are incompatible with many PCs
out there perfectly capable of useful service.
It requires, the same as the version of OS X for Intel-based Macs,
the newer UEFI type of motherboard. In addition, it requires TPM 2.0,

Note that the W11 TPM requirement accept "virtual" TPM that is
generated by the UEFI BIOS using the security "enclave" built into
*all* the cpus on the compatibility list. And we already know there's
going to be SOME exceptions to the TPM requirement, currently that's a
list of specific countries where it doesn't apply (due to goverment
mandates mostly).
It's also worth pointing out that a working TPM has been a hard
requirement for years now for OEM/SAs to be allowed to pre-install
Windows 10 (which they all do).
It's just DIY where it's not already mandated, the virtual TPM is
often disabled by default on consumer motherboards but since SA's also
use those motherboards it's available.
So if you do have a "supported" CPU in most cases it's just a question
of finding and enabling it in the BIOS. There are exceptions among the
older motherboards with supported CPUs but even those often have this.
And... while MS say it's a hard requirement and (somewhat!) enforce it
during testing they could easily change their mind.
Quite possibly more than once, I consider these kind of initial
announcements more of "trial balloons".
The list of supported CPUs will hit much more people since currently
you need a 8th generation Intel or Zen+ or later though MS has made
noises about possibly allowing 7th gen Intel and first generation Zen.
There's a LOT of 6th generation Intel (Skylake) still out there that's
perfectly fine machines and even 10th gen intel is only a minor
variant of Skylake...
OTOH, as you go back that far TPM 2.0 does get rare, so if they don't
change their mind it could be a big issue a few years down the line
(Win 10 now has a "free support ends" date somewhere in 2025).
If they do relax the TPM requirement it might end up like Windows 10
which technically require 4th generation Intel or newer, though Intel
3rd generation is allowed for Windows 8.x upgrades, but W10 will run
fine on Core2Quad's that PREDATE the entire "generation" numbering.
Or not, if they end up using an instruction not available on the older
chips (Sandy Bridge/AVX or Haswell/AVX2 is a few obvious possible pain
points).

Sounds like it might be time to buy another Win7 box to keep in
storage.

[Dorothy J Heydt]

Post by pyotr filipivich

Post by Torbjorn Lindgren
If they do relax the TPM requirement it might end up like Windows 10
which technically require 4th generation Intel or newer, though Intel
3rd generation is allowed for Windows 8.x upgrades, but W10 will run
fine on Core2Quad's that PREDATE the entire "generation" numbering.
Or not, if they end up using an instruction not available on the older
chips (Sandy Bridge/AVX or Haswell/AVX2 is a few obvious possible pain
points).

Sounds like it might be time to buy another Win7 box to keep in
storage.

Hal's and my Win7 boxes are still running strong. They might
outlive us.

[Quadibloc]

Post by pyotr filipivich
Sounds like it might be time to buy another Win7 box to keep in
storage.

Perhaps put it in a thick metal box, wrapped in aluminum foil, to ensure
it serves as a Faraday cage. Throw in solar panels... you might have one
of the last few working computers on Earth if we have another Carrington
event.

John Savard

[Dorothy J Heydt]

Post by Quadibloc

Post by Quadibloc
California, along with Colorado, Hawai'i, Oregon, Vermont, and

Washington state, have passed new laws mandating energy efficiency or
usage standards for desktop computer systems.

Post by Quadibloc
It will no longer be enough to be Energy Star certified.
Thus, some higher-end pre-built computer systems may not be shipped to

buyers in those states, or sold in those states.

Post by Quadibloc
Additional regulations will come into effect in early December.

That's not bad news for Hal, his Raspberry Pi systems should
comfortably fall under the new limits.

You bet.

The one thing the Pis won't do is play The Lord of the Rings
Online, having ARM processors instead X86.

And our gaming PCs are elderly, and we already have them. They
may outlast us.

Post by Quadibloc
Dell has two (count them) of their hundred systems that
they won't ship to Ca, and it's mainly because they idle
at 50+ watts, which is, frankly, ridiculous for any modern
system.

And I bet they cost an arm, a leg, and several teeth.

[Quadibloc]

Post by Dorothy J Heydt
And I bet they cost an arm, a leg, and several teeth.

For _that_, I saw a Youtube video about the kind of systems another
outfit custom builds... but, yes, they're expensive.

John Savard

[Dimensional Traveler]

Post by Quadibloc
California, along with Colorado, Hawai'i, Oregon, Vermont, and Washington state, have passed new laws mandating energy efficiency or usage standards for desktop computer systems.
It will no longer be enough to be Energy Star certified.
Thus, some higher-end pre-built computer systems may not be shipped to buyers in those states, or sold in those states.
Additional regulations will come into effect in early December.

That's not bad news for Hal, his Raspberry Pi systems should
comfortably fall under the new limits.
Dell has two (count them) of their hundred systems that
they won't ship to Ca, and it's mainly because they idle
at 50+ watts, which is, frankly, ridiculous for any modern
system.

I would be VERY surprised if the new regs tried to grandfather in
_existing_ computers in their states. It would unenforceable. What
they are doing is not allowing sales of NEW computers that violate the
new regs.

[Quadibloc]

Post by Dimensional Traveler
I would be VERY surprised if the new regs tried to grandfather in
_existing_ computers in their states. It would unenforceable. What
they are doing is not allowing sales of NEW computers that violate the
new regs.

Um, allowing people to continue using their old computers even if they
don't follow the new rules _is_ grandfathering them. It would be unenforceable
to try _not_ to grandfather them.

John Savard

[Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha]

On Tuesday, July 27, 2021 at 6:39:32 PM UTC-6, Dimensional

Post by Dimensional Traveler
I would be VERY surprised if the new regs tried to grandfather
in _existing_ computers in their states. It would
unenforceable. What they are doing is not allowing sales of NEW
computers that violate the new regs.

Um, allowing people to continue using their old computers even
if they don't follow the new rules _is_ grandfathering them. It
would be unenforceable to try _not_ to grandfather them.

Any what are you smoking to conclue that would even slow down
California's legislature from trying to do so? Give it a couple of
years, and they'll be allowing no knock warrants in the middle of the
night based on your smart meter reporting your electricity usage as
suspicious.
--
Terry Austin

Proof that Alan Baker is a liar and a fool, and even stupider than
Lynn:
https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/stats/sw-border-migration
(May 2019 total for people arrested for entering the United States
illegally is over 132,000 for just the southwest border.)

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB

[Quadibloc]

Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
Any what are you smoking to conclue that would even slow down
California's legislature from trying to do so?

I can truthfully report that I have not taken advantage of the
fact that it is genuinely legal to smoke that stuff in Canada...

I like my brain waves mathematically perfect.

John Savard

[Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha]

On Wednesday, July 28, 2021 at 10:20:22 AM UTC-6, Jibini Kula

Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
Any what are you smoking to conclue that would even slow down
California's legislature from trying to do so?

I can truthfully report that I have not taken advantage of the
fact that it is genuinely legal to smoke that stuff in Canada...
I like my brain waves mathematically perfect.

And yet, you come up with the stupidest, craziest shit.
--
Terry Austin

Proof that Alan Baker is a liar and a fool, and even stupider than
Lynn:
https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/stats/sw-border-migration
(May 2019 total for people arrested for entering the United States
illegally is over 132,000 for just the southwest border.)

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB

[Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha]

On Tue, 27 Jul 2021 18:22:14 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc

On Tuesday, July 27, 2021 at 6:39:32 PM UTC-6, Dimensional

Post by Dimensional Traveler
I would be VERY surprised if the new regs tried to grandfather
in _existing_ computers in their states. It would
unenforceable. What they are doing is not allowing sales of
NEW computers that violate the new regs.

Um, allowing people to continue using their old computers even
if they don't follow the new rules _is_ grandfathering them. It
would be unenforceable to try _not_ to grandfather them.

This is a ban on sale, not a ban on possession.

So far.
--
Terry Austin

Proof that Alan Baker is a liar and a fool, and even stupider than
Lynn:
https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/stats/sw-border-migration
(May 2019 total for people arrested for entering the United States
illegally is over 132,000 for just the southwest border.)

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB

[Quadibloc]

it's mainly because they idle
at 50+ watts, which is, frankly, ridiculous for any modern
system.

I certainly understand that the free market system cannot by
itself account for externalities, and so I have no objection in
principle to government regulation for such reasons.

I am glad to hear that the regulations in question are not onerous,
but only deal with frivolous failures to design machines in a responsible
manner for energy consumption.

John Savard

[J. Clarke]

On Tue, 27 Jul 2021 18:15:39 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc

Post by Quadibloc

it's mainly because they idle
at 50+ watts, which is, frankly, ridiculous for any modern
system.

I certainly understand that the free market system cannot by
itself account for externalities, and so I have no objection in
principle to government regulation for such reasons.
I am glad to hear that the regulations in question are not onerous,
but only deal with frivolous failures to design machines in a responsible
manner for energy consumption.

They are stupidly concieved. If the energy consumed by computing
exceeds total energy production, it is not going to be gamers driving
it. It is going to be massive server farms supporting cloud
computing. And they haven't done squat about that.

[Robert Carnegie]

Post by J. Clarke
On Tue, 27 Jul 2021 18:15:39 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc

Post by Quadibloc

it's mainly because they idle
at 50+ watts, which is, frankly, ridiculous for any modern
system.

I certainly understand that the free market system cannot by
itself account for externalities, and so I have no objection in
principle to government regulation for such reasons.
I am glad to hear that the regulations in question are not onerous,
but only deal with frivolous failures to design machines in a responsible
manner for energy consumption.

They are stupidly concieved. If the energy consumed by computing
exceeds total energy production, it is not going to be gamers driving
it. It is going to be massive server farms supporting cloud
computing. And they haven't done squat about that.

I expect that a "server farm" closely watches its
electricity bill - and its air conditioning bill - and
uses very energy efficient computers.

[Bill Gill]

Post by Robert Carnegie

Post by J. Clarke
On Tue, 27 Jul 2021 18:15:39 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc

Post by Quadibloc

it's mainly because they idle
at 50+ watts, which is, frankly, ridiculous for any modern
system.

I certainly understand that the free market system cannot by
itself account for externalities, and so I have no objection in
principle to government regulation for such reasons.
I am glad to hear that the regulations in question are not onerous,
but only deal with frivolous failures to design machines in a responsible
manner for energy consumption.

They are stupidly concieved. If the energy consumed by computing
exceeds total energy production, it is not going to be gamers driving
it. It is going to be massive server farms supporting cloud
computing. And they haven't done squat about that.

I expect that a "server farm" closely watches its
electricity bill - and its air conditioning bill - and
uses very energy efficient computers.

Here in NE Oklahoma the Google server farm is big into alternative
energy.

Bill

[Thomas Koenig]

Post by Bill Gill
Here in NE Oklahoma the Google server farm is big into alternative
energy.

Good for them!

Do they shut down when there is neither sunlight nor wind?

Or how do they store the energy for these periods, and for
how long?

[Bill Gill]

Post by Thomas Koenig

Post by Bill Gill
Here in NE Oklahoma the Google server farm is big into alternative
energy.

Good for them!

Do they shut down when there is neither sunlight nor wind?
Or how do they store the energy for these periods, and for
how long?

I'm not sure how they work it, but I believe they are buying alternative
energy from the power company.

Bill

[Thomas Koenig]

Post by Thomas Koenig

Post by Bill Gill
Here in NE Oklahoma the Google server farm is big into alternative
energy.

Good for them!

Do they shut down when there is neither sunlight nor wind?
Or how do they store the energy for these periods, and for
how long?

https://electrek.co/2021/06/30/tesla-megapacks-power-on-battery-replacing-gas-peaker-plant-california/

So, does Google a actually do that, is there a record of that?

Apart from that... "to grow to a record 3GWh in 2020".

That may be enough for some day-time demand peaks, but for a period
of a few days or weeks when there is very little sun and wind,
that's just peanuts.

Also, they didn't mention pesky points like Lithium use or battery
degradation over time...

[Scott Lurndal]

Post by Thomas Koenig

Post by Thomas Koenig

Post by Bill Gill
Here in NE Oklahoma the Google server farm is big into alternative
energy.

Good for them!

Do they shut down when there is neither sunlight nor wind?
Or how do they store the energy for these periods, and for
how long?

https://electrek.co/2021/06/30/tesla-megapacks-power-on-battery-replacing-gas-peaker-plant-california/

So, does Google a actually do that, is there a record of that?
Apart from that... "to grow to a record 3GWh in 2020".
That may be enough for some day-time demand peaks, but for a period
of a few days or weeks when there is very little sun and wind,
that's just peanuts.

There are not a "few days or weeks when there is very little sun and wind"
in california. The sun always shines and the wind always blows
somewhere in the state.

Even when it's cloudy, solar panels still generate power, just
not as much.

Production
194 W 30 Jul, 2021 6:59 AM
7.88 MWh Lifetime (since Dec 17, 2020 on this array).

(That's with the marine layer, which should burn off in
an hour or so - production peaks at 5.3kw in the early
afternoon).

Post by Thomas Koenig
Also, they didn't mention pesky points like Lithium use or battery
degradation over time...

They also didn't mention the recently developed Iron-based batteries,
for which the extra weight doesn't matter for such storage applications.

See, for example, Form Energy https://formenergy.com/

[Lynn McGuire]

Post by Thomas Koenig

Post by Thomas Koenig

Post by Bill Gill
Here in NE Oklahoma the Google server farm is big into alternative
energy.

Good for them!

Do they shut down when there is neither sunlight nor wind?
Or how do they store the energy for these periods, and for
how long?

https://electrek.co/2021/06/30/tesla-megapacks-power-on-battery-replacing-gas-peaker-plant-california/

So, does Google a actually do that, is there a record of that?
Apart from that... "to grow to a record 3GWh in 2020".
That may be enough for some day-time demand peaks, but for a period
of a few days or weeks when there is very little sun and wind,
that's just peanuts.
Also, they didn't mention pesky points like Lithium use or battery
degradation over time...

The Megapacks are going to move to LFP batteries over time, Tesla is
going to move to LFP batteries when weight does not count. “What Tesla’s
bet on iron-based batteries means for manufacturers”

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/tesla-bet-iron-based-batteries-143934016.html

“Elon Musk earlier this week made his most bullish statements yet on
iron-based batteries, noting that Tesla is making a “long-term shift”
toward older, cheaper lithium-iron-phosphate (LFP) cells in its energy
storage products and some entry-level EVs.
The Tesla CEO mused that the company’s batteries may eventually be
roughly two-thirds iron-based and one-third nickel-based across its
products. “And this is actually good because there’s plenty of iron in
the world,” he added.”

And the LFP batteries apparently support more than 4,000 charge cycles
and do not burn as readily as lithium batteries.

Lynn

[Lynn McGuire]

Post by Thomas Koenig

Post by Bill Gill
Here in NE Oklahoma the Google server farm is big into alternative
energy.

Good for them!

Do they shut down when there is neither sunlight nor wind?
Or how do they store the energy for these periods, and for
how long?

https://electrek.co/2021/06/30/tesla-megapacks-power-on-battery-replacing-gas-peaker-plant-california/
Pt

Uh oh. "'Up In Smoke:' Tesla Megapack Battery Catches Fire In Australia "

https://www.zerohedge.com/markets/smoke-australia-tesla-megapack-battery-catches-fire

Lynn

[Scott Lurndal]

Post by J. Clarke
On Tue, 27 Jul 2021 18:15:39 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc

Post by Quadibloc

it's mainly because they idle
at 50+ watts, which is, frankly, ridiculous for any modern
system.

I certainly understand that the free market system cannot by
itself account for externalities, and so I have no objection in
principle to government regulation for such reasons.
I am glad to hear that the regulations in question are not onerous,
but only deal with frivolous failures to design machines in a responsible
manner for energy consumption.

They are stupidly concieved. If the energy consumed by computing
exceeds total energy production, it is not going to be gamers driving
it. It is going to be massive server farms supporting cloud
computing. And they haven't done squat about that.

They haven't needed to. The cloud providers are very, very, very
conscious of power usage by every machine (and the supporting
infrastructure, such as cooling, which is a big part of the
energy cost for such server farms). They do have to pay
for it, after all.

As a processor designer, our company is constantly striving to
reduce power (idle and otherwise), and all the server manufacturers
likewise.

[Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha]

Post by J. Clarke
On Tue, 27 Jul 2021 18:15:39 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc

On Tuesday, July 27, 2021 at 4:06:41 PM UTC-6, Scott Lurndal

it's mainly because they idle
at 50+ watts, which is, frankly, ridiculous for any modern
system.

I certainly understand that the free market system cannot by
itself account for externalities, and so I have no objection in
principle to government regulation for such reasons.
I am glad to hear that the regulations in question are not
onerous, but only deal with frivolous failures to design
machines in a responsible manner for energy consumption.

They are stupidly concieved. If the energy consumed by
computing exceeds total energy production, it is not going to be
gamers driving it. It is going to be massive server farms
supporting cloud computing. And they haven't done squat about
that.

Passing laws that will have a seriously negative effect on a major
state industry would be very poor virtue signaling.
--
Terry Austin

Proof that Alan Baker is a liar and a fool, and even stupider than
Lynn:
https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/stats/sw-border-migration
(May 2019 total for people arrested for entering the United States
illegally is over 132,000 for just the southwest border.)

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB

[Quadibloc]

Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha

Post by J. Clarke
They are stupidly concieved. If the energy consumed by
computing exceeds total energy production, it is not going to be
gamers driving it. It is going to be massive server farms
supporting cloud computing. And they haven't done squat about
that.

Passing laws that will have a seriously negative effect on a major
state industry would be very poor virtue signaling.

It would be very poor public policy. It would be simply splendid
virtue signaling.

John Savard

[Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha]

On Wednesday, July 28, 2021 at 10:21:47 AM UTC-6, Jibini Kula

Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha

Post by J. Clarke
They are stupidly concieved. If the energy consumed by
computing exceeds total energy production, it is not going to
be gamers driving it. It is going to be massive server farms
supporting cloud computing. And they haven't done squat about
that.

Passing laws that will have a seriously negative effect on a
major state industry would be very poor virtue signaling.

It would be very poor public policy. It would be simply splendid
virtue signaling.

Not when it's an industry with enough political clout to get you un-
elected. And make no mistake, Silicon Valley has that kind of
political clout.
--
Terry Austin

Proof that Alan Baker is a liar and a fool, and even stupider than
Lynn:
https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/stats/sw-border-migration
(May 2019 total for people arrested for entering the United States
illegally is over 132,000 for just the southwest border.)

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB

[Thomas Koenig]

Post by Quadibloc

Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha

Post by J. Clarke
They are stupidly concieved. If the energy consumed by
computing exceeds total energy production, it is not going to be
gamers driving it. It is going to be massive server farms
supporting cloud computing. And they haven't done squat about
that.

Passing laws that will have a seriously negative effect on a major
state industry would be very poor virtue signaling.

It would be very poor public policy. It would be simply splendid
virtue signaling.

Look at what Germany is doing to its automotive industry.

[Quadibloc]

Dell has two (count them) of their hundred systems that
they won't ship to Ca, and it's mainly because they idle
at 50+ watts, which is, frankly, ridiculous for any modern
system.

I've now found this video,

which carefully reviews the details of these regulations, and
notes that the limits are reasonable for the reason you mention,
urging a balanced view instead of needless panic.

John Savard

[Scott Lurndal]

Post by Quadibloc

Dell has two (count them) of their hundred systems that
they won't ship to Ca, and it's mainly because they idle
at 50+ watts, which is, frankly, ridiculous for any modern
system.

I've now found this video,
http://youtu.be/N5fc5ZX6Kzk
which carefully reviews the details of these regulations, and
notes that the limits are reasonable for the reason you mention,
urging a balanced view instead of needless panic.

Let that be a lesson, then. Research first, Research second,
Post third...

[Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha]

Post by Scott Lurndal

Post by Quadibloc

Dell has two (count them) of their hundred systems that
they won't ship to Ca, and it's mainly because they idle
at 50+ watts, which is, frankly, ridiculous for any modern
system.

I've now found this video,
http://youtu.be/N5fc5ZX6Kzk
which carefully reviews the details of these regulations, and
notes that the limits are reasonable for the reason you mention,
urging a balanced view instead of needless panic.

Let that be a lesson, then. Research first, Research second,
Post third...

Yeah, that's gonna happen with Quaddie.
--
Terry Austin

Proof that Alan Baker is a liar and a fool, and even stupider than
Lynn:
https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/stats/sw-border-migration
(May 2019 total for people arrested for entering the United States
illegally is over 132,000 for just the southwest border.)

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB

[pyotr filipivich]

Post by Quadibloc
California, along with Colorado, Hawai'i, Oregon, Vermont, and Washington state, have passed new laws mandating energy efficiency or usage standards for desktop computer systems.
It will no longer be enough to be Energy Star certified.
Thus, some higher-end pre-built computer systems may not be shipped to buyers in those states, or sold in those states.
Additional regulations will come into effect in early December.
https://www.theregister.com/2021/07/26/dell_energy_pcs/
https://wccftech.com/dell-unable-to-fulfill-alienware-aurora-ryzen-edition-orders-in-6-us-states-eco-hazard/
https://www.extremetech.com/computing/325163-alienware-claims-it-cant-sell-high-end-desktop-pcs-in-6-us-states
http://youtu.be/QcivEGigiGg
John Savard

People are getting what they "voted" for. Modern Green Economics
in compliance with the latest Climate Change dogmas.
Good and hard.

OTOH, California can't supply electricity to customers as it is,
so better install that windmill to charge the batteries for your
house.

Oh, and please, if you've been voting for The Party, please stay
in (or return home to) California so that you may enjoy the fruits of
your labors.


tschus
pyotr

[Scott Lurndal]

Post by pyotr filipivich
OTOH, California can't supply electricity to customers as it is,

That is not true at all. The Public Safety power shutdowns are
not because there isn't enough supply. They're because of capitalism
and lack of competent regulation (PG&E returning dividends instead of
investing in their aging infrastructure).

And the single rolling blackout in the last 20 years last summer during the killer heatwave
(increased frequency due to a changing climate) wasn't due to lack of supply,
just lack of foresight, system maintenance (several power plants were
unavailable) and abundent caution. There was no actual
shortage, nor would there have been one without the rolling blackouts.

And note the rolling blackouts only affects small portions of the
northermost part of the state.

So your entire argument is bogus, along with your irrational hatred of California.

[Quadibloc]

Post by pyotr filipivich
OTOH, California can't supply electricity to customers as it is,

That is not true at all. The Public Safety power shutdowns are
not because there isn't enough supply.

Carrying electricity over the wires between the power plant and
the customer's home is _part_ of supplying electricity to
*customers*.

The state of California should start immediately stringing up thick
enough copper wires where needed so that electricity would never,
ever need to be shut down due to a risk of causing forest fires, and
send the utilities the bill. Accompanied by regulations limiting their
ability to pass the cost on to consumers.

But _reasonable_ regulations, of course. Their profits and return on
investment may be limited severely, but obviously they can't be
expected to supply electricity at a loss _in marginal terms_; *that*
would be extreme and unworkable.

John Savard

[Michael F. Stemper]

Post by Quadibloc

Post by pyotr filipivich
OTOH, California can't supply electricity to customers as it is,

That is not true at all. The Public Safety power shutdowns are
not because there isn't enough supply.

Carrying electricity over the wires between the power plant and
the customer's home is _part_ of supplying electricity to
*customers*.
The state of California should start immediately stringing up thick
enough copper wires

Copper? Copper hasn't been used for transmission conductor in
generations. Any new construction is ACSR:

<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aluminium-conductor_steel-reinforced_cable>

[Michael F. Stemper]

Post by Michael F. Stemper

Post by Quadibloc

Post by pyotr filipivich
OTOH, California can't supply electricity to customers as it is,

That is not true at all. The Public Safety power shutdowns are
not because there isn't enough supply.

Carrying electricity over the wires between the power plant and
the customer's home is _part_ of supplying electricity to
*customers*.
The state of California should start immediately stringing up thick
enough copper wires

Copper? Copper hasn't been used for transmission conductor in
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aluminium-conductor_steel-reinforced_cable>

Also, because of skin effect, "thick" doesn't significantly increase
the conductor's ampacity.

[pyotr filipivich]

Post by Quadibloc

Post by pyotr filipivich
OTOH, California can't supply electricity to customers as it is,

That is not true at all. The Public Safety power shutdowns are
not because there isn't enough supply.

Carrying electricity over the wires between the power plant and
the customer's home is _part_ of supplying electricity to
*customers*.
The state of California should start immediately stringing up thick
enough copper wires where needed so that electricity would never,
ever need to be shut down due to a risk of causing forest fires, and
send the utilities the bill. Accompanied by regulations limiting their
ability to pass the cost on to consumers.

Um, you are aware that the state of California is run by those who
do not want any kind of operations in forested areas which might
endanger the trees? Which is part of why the PG&E hasn't been able to
clear right of ways and other silly notions?

[Dimensional Traveler]

Post by pyotr filipivich

Post by Quadibloc

Post by pyotr filipivich
OTOH, California can't supply electricity to customers as it is,

That is not true at all. The Public Safety power shutdowns are
not because there isn't enough supply.

Carrying electricity over the wires between the power plant and
the customer's home is _part_ of supplying electricity to
*customers*.
The state of California should start immediately stringing up thick
enough copper wires where needed so that electricity would never,
ever need to be shut down due to a risk of causing forest fires, and
send the utilities the bill. Accompanied by regulations limiting their
ability to pass the cost on to consumers.

Um, you are aware that the state of California is run by those who
do not want any kind of operations in forested areas which might
endanger the trees? Which is part of why the PG&E hasn't been able to
clear right of ways and other silly notions?

No, the main reason why PG&E hasn't maintained their lines is because
they haven't been willing to PAY to maintain their lines.

[pyotr filipivich]

Post by Scott Lurndal

Post by pyotr filipivich
OTOH, California can't supply electricity to customers as it is,

That is not true at all. The Public Safety power shutdowns are
not because there isn't enough supply. They're because of capitalism
and lack of competent regulation (PG&E returning dividends instead of
investing in their aging infrastructure).
And the single rolling blackout in the last 20 years last summer during the killer heatwave
(increased frequency due to a changing climate) wasn't due to lack of supply,
just lack of foresight, system maintenance (several power plants were
unavailable) and abundent caution. There was no actual
shortage, nor would there have been one without the rolling blackouts.
And note the rolling blackouts only affects small portions of the
northermost part of the state.

Right there you contradict your opening statement.

Sorry, didn't want to cause you to commit thoughtcrime.

Post by Scott Lurndal
So your entire argument is bogus, along with your irrational hatred of California.

DemSoc bellyfeelers duckspeak blackwhite double plusgood.