Discussion:
[OT] Bad News for Hal (and other California computer users)
(too old to reply)
Quadibloc
2021-07-27 22:02:11 UTC
Permalink
California, along with Colorado, Hawai'i, Oregon, Vermont, and Washington state, have passed new laws mandating energy efficiency or usage standards for desktop computer systems.
It will no longer be enough to be Energy Star certified.
Thus, some higher-end pre-built computer systems may not be shipped to buyers in those states, or sold in those states.
Additional regulations will come into effect in early December.

https://www.theregister.com/2021/07/26/dell_energy_pcs/
https://wccftech.com/dell-unable-to-fulfill-alienware-aurora-ryzen-edition-orders-in-6-us-states-eco-hazard/
https://www.extremetech.com/computing/325163-alienware-claims-it-cant-sell-high-end-desktop-pcs-in-6-us-states
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QcivEGigiGg

John Savard
Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
2021-07-27 22:23:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Quadibloc
California, along with Colorado, Hawai'i, Oregon, Vermont, and
Washington state, have passed new laws mandating energy
efficiency or usage standards for desktop computer systems. It
will no longer be enough to be Energy Star certified. Thus, some
higher-end pre-built computer systems may not be shipped to
buyers in those states, or sold in those states. Additional
regulations will come into effect in early December.
That's not bad news for Hal, his Raspberry Pi systems should
comfortably fall under the new limits.
Dell has two (count them) of their hundred systems that
they won't ship to Ca, and it's mainly because they idle
at 50+ watts, which is, frankly, ridiculous for any modern
system.
And they're both Alienware gaming boxes.
--
Terry Austin

Proof that Alan Baker is a liar and a fool, and even stupider than
Lynn:
https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/stats/sw-border-migration
(May 2019 total for people arrested for entering the United States
illegally is over 132,000 for just the southwest border.)

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB
Magewolf
2021-07-28 01:20:44 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 27 Jul 2021 15:23:48 -0700, Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
Post by Quadibloc
California, along with Colorado, Hawai'i, Oregon, Vermont, and
Washington state, have passed new laws mandating energy efficiency or
usage standards for desktop computer systems. It will no longer be
enough to be Energy Star certified. Thus, some higher-end pre-built
computer systems may not be shipped to buyers in those states, or sold
in those states. Additional regulations will come into effect in early
December.
That's not bad news for Hal, his Raspberry Pi systems should
comfortably fall under the new limits.
Dell has two (count them) of their hundred systems that they won't ship
to Ca, and it's mainly because they idle at 50+ watts, which is,
frankly, ridiculous for any modern system.
And they're both Alienware gaming boxes.
I am tempted to say that anything that stops someone from wasting money
on an Alienware pc(this is a funny review of a current Alienware "gaming
system" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ulhFi5N2hc )is a good thing but
it could just be the tip of a "stupid" iceberg. If this fails to have
any real effect will they start outlawing any power supply over 400
watts?
Quadibloc
2021-07-28 01:26:16 UTC
Permalink
it could just be the tip of a "stupid" iceberg. If this fails to have
any real effect will they start outlawing any power supply over 400
watts?
That sort of thing is always possible. But I don't want to be
over-sensitive to such possibilities, on the grounds that it would
be hypocritical to accept government regulation of what other
people do, but not what I do.

Of course, what I'd really like is for them to start building nice
carbon-free nuclear power plants instead of restricting energy
use. But, of course, not on the San Andreas fault, which is a
problem given the current anti-nuclear hysteria (that is, other
states might not accept additional nuclear capacity to meet
California's energy needs).

John Savard
Paul S Person
2021-07-28 16:54:03 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 27 Jul 2021 18:26:16 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc
Post by Quadibloc
it could just be the tip of a "stupid" iceberg. If this fails to have
any real effect will they start outlawing any power supply over 400
watts?
That sort of thing is always possible. But I don't want to be
over-sensitive to such possibilities, on the grounds that it would
be hypocritical to accept government regulation of what other
people do, but not what I do.
Of course, what I'd really like is for them to start building nice
carbon-free nuclear power plants instead of restricting energy
use. But, of course, not on the San Andreas fault, which is a
problem given the current anti-nuclear hysteria (that is, other
states might not accept additional nuclear capacity to meet
California's energy needs).
If I can believe my eyes, Everett will be getting a /fusion/ power
plant ... or, at least, a building intended to hold one:
<https://www.king5.com/article/tech/science/environment/clean-energy-power-plant-new-fusion-technology-breaks-ground-everett-helion-shell-energy/281-f87735b7-35c1-4740-ad47-a84cbdb911d8>
and some new, presumably well-paying, jobs.

Whether it ever actually generates power, and how long it takes,
remains to be seen.
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."
Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
2021-07-28 17:00:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paul S Person
On Tue, 27 Jul 2021 18:26:16 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc
Post by Quadibloc
it could just be the tip of a "stupid" iceberg. If this fails
to have any real effect will they start outlawing any power
supply over 400 watts?
That sort of thing is always possible. But I don't want to be
over-sensitive to such possibilities, on the grounds that it
would be hypocritical to accept government regulation of what
other people do, but not what I do.
Of course, what I'd really like is for them to start building
nice carbon-free nuclear power plants instead of restricting
energy use. But, of course, not on the San Andreas fault, which
is a problem given the current anti-nuclear hysteria (that is,
other states might not accept additional nuclear capacity to
meet California's energy needs).
If I can believe my eyes, Everett will be getting a /fusion/
<https://www.king5.com/article/tech/science/environment/clean-ene
rgy-power-plant-new-fusion-technology-breaks-ground-everett-helio
n-shell-energy/281-f87735b7-35c1-4740-ad47-a84cbdb911d8> and
some new, presumably well-paying, jobs.
Whether it ever actually generates power, and how long it takes,
remains to be seen.
Fusion power has only been 20 years away for 50 years now. But
whether or not it ever generates power, and whether or not the
people behind it ever *expect* it to, is not the point. Like the
bridge to nowhere, and the high speed rail between LA and Vegas,
it's about union jobs in exchange for union votes.
--
Terry Austin

Proof that Alan Baker is a liar and a fool, and even stupider than
Lynn:
https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/stats/sw-border-migration
(May 2019 total for people arrested for entering the United States
illegally is over 132,000 for just the southwest border.)

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB
Scott Lurndal
2021-07-28 17:06:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paul S Person
On Tue, 27 Jul 2021 18:26:16 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc
Post by Quadibloc
it could just be the tip of a "stupid" iceberg. If this fails to have
any real effect will they start outlawing any power supply over 400
watts?
That sort of thing is always possible. But I don't want to be
over-sensitive to such possibilities, on the grounds that it would
be hypocritical to accept government regulation of what other
people do, but not what I do.
Of course, what I'd really like is for them to start building nice
carbon-free nuclear power plants instead of restricting energy
use. But, of course, not on the San Andreas fault, which is a
problem given the current anti-nuclear hysteria (that is, other
states might not accept additional nuclear capacity to meet
California's energy needs).
If I can believe my eyes, Everett will be getting a /fusion/ power
<https://www.king5.com/article/tech/science/environment/clean-energy-power-plant-new-fusion-technology-breaks-ground-everett-helion-shell-energy/281-f87735b7-35c1-4740-ad47-a84cbdb911d8>
and some new, presumably well-paying, jobs.
Whether it ever actually generates power, and how long it takes,
remains to be seen.
https://www.helionenergy.com/faq/

Our (Helion) approach does three major things differently from other fusion approaches:

1) We utilize a pulsed fusion system. This helps us overcome the hardest physics
challenges, keeps our fusion device smaller than other approaches, and allows
us to adjust the power output based on need.

2) Our system is built to directly recover electricity. Just like regenerative
braking in an electric car, our system is built to recover all unused and
new electromagnetic energy efficiently. Other fusion systems heat water to
create steam to turn a turbine which loses a lot of energy in the process.

3) We use deuterium and helium-3 (D-³He) as fuel. Helium-3 is a cleaner,
higher octane fuel. This helps keep our system small and efficient.

Time will tell. Kudos if they make it work at greater than break-even.
Quadibloc
2021-07-28 19:44:41 UTC
Permalink
Time will tell. Kudos if they make it work at greater than break-even.
Given that a European tokamak managed to achieve break-even, I suppose
it's plausible that the much simpler inertial confinement approach _ought_
to be able to work.

Helium 3, however, isn't exactly something that is mined from anywhere,
except perhaps the lunar surface. Perhaps it is a byproduct of nuclear
reactors being used to produce material for hydrogen bombs in the
U.S. nuclear arsenal?

Usually, inertial confinement works by bombarding the pellet with
really intense lasers. All very well for experimental purposes, but that
uses a lot of energy. That the pellet might produce even more - well,
an H-bomb makes a bigger bank than the A-bomb that triggered it,
but one expects lasers doing the work of an A-bomb to be rather less
energy-efficient.

So perhaps they've made a breakthrough in efficient lasers, as well
as in MHD?

John Savard
Scott Lurndal
2021-07-28 20:25:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Quadibloc
Time will tell. Kudos if they make it work at greater than break-even.
Given that a European tokamak managed to achieve break-even, I suppose
it's plausible that the much simpler inertial confinement approach _ought_
to be able to work.
Helium 3, however, isn't exactly something that is mined from anywhere,
except perhaps the lunar surface. Perhaps it is a byproduct of nuclear
reactors being used to produce material for hydrogen bombs in the
U.S. nuclear arsenal?
The answer to this question is in the link you elided and apparently did
not read. Research first, Research Second, Post third.
Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
2021-07-28 20:44:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Scott Lurndal
Post by Quadibloc
Time will tell. Kudos if they make it work at greater than
break-even.
Given that a European tokamak managed to achieve break-even, I
suppose it's plausible that the much simpler inertial
confinement approach _ought_ to be able to work.
Helium 3, however, isn't exactly something that is mined from
anywhere, except perhaps the lunar surface. Perhaps it is a
byproduct of nuclear reactors being used to produce material for
hydrogen bombs in the U.S. nuclear arsenal?
The answer to this question is in the link you elided and
apparently did not read. Research first, Research Second, Post
third.
Quaddie always.
--
Terry Austin

Proof that Alan Baker is a liar and a fool, and even stupider than
Lynn:
https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/stats/sw-border-migration
(May 2019 total for people arrested for entering the United States
illegally is over 132,000 for just the southwest border.)

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB
Quadibloc
2021-07-28 22:16:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Scott Lurndal
Post by Quadibloc
Helium 3, however, isn't exactly something that is mined from anywhere,
except perhaps the lunar surface. Perhaps it is a byproduct of nuclear
reactors being used to produce material for hydrogen bombs in the
U.S. nuclear arsenal?
The answer to this question is in the link you elided and apparently did
not read. Research first, Research Second, Post third.
Oh, wonderful. They're going to make their own Helium-3 from deuterium
in their plasma accelerator. In that case, their process will be effectively
equivalent to the much harder to achieve D-D fusion, and will therefore
have the fuel available to fulfill the promise of fusion - an energy source
that will last a very long time.

So their claims are even *bigger* than I realized.

John Savard
Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
2021-07-28 22:46:22 UTC
Permalink
On Wednesday, July 28, 2021 at 2:25:52 PM UTC-6, Scott Lurndal
Post by Scott Lurndal
Post by Quadibloc
Helium 3, however, isn't exactly something that is mined from
anywhere, except perhaps the lunar surface. Perhaps it is a
byproduct of nuclear reactors being used to produce material
for hydrogen bombs in the U.S. nuclear arsenal?
The answer to this question is in the link you elided and
apparently did not read. Research first, Research Second, Post
third.
Oh, wonderful. They're going to make their own Helium-3 from
deuterium in their plasma accelerator. In that case, their
process will be effectively equivalent to the much harder to
achieve D-D fusion,
Does that multi-step process actually produce more energy than it
uses?
So their claims are even *bigger* than I realized.
Perpetual motion schemes predate the industrial revolution.
--
Terry Austin

Proof that Alan Baker is a liar and a fool, and even stupider than
Lynn:
https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/stats/sw-border-migration
(May 2019 total for people arrested for entering the United States
illegally is over 132,000 for just the southwest border.)

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB
Thomas Koenig
2021-07-29 05:19:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Quadibloc
Post by Scott Lurndal
Post by Quadibloc
Helium 3, however, isn't exactly something that is mined from anywhere,
except perhaps the lunar surface. Perhaps it is a byproduct of nuclear
reactors being used to produce material for hydrogen bombs in the
U.S. nuclear arsenal?
The answer to this question is in the link you elided and apparently did
not read. Research first, Research Second, Post third.
Oh, wonderful. They're going to make their own Helium-3 from deuterium
in their plasma accelerator. In that case, their process will be effectively
equivalent to the much harder to achieve D-D fusion,
There is data on the Deuterium + proton -> He3 reaction.

@article{d_p_he,
author={R.Bilger, W.Brodowski, H.Calen, H.Clement, C.Ekstrom,
G.Faeldt, K.Fransson, L.Gustafsson, B.Hoeistad,
A.Johansson, T.Johansson, K.Kilian, S.Kullander,
A.Kupsc, G.Kurz, P.Marciniewski, B.Morosov,
A.Moertsell, W.Oelert, V.Renken, R.J.M.Y.Ruber,
B.Shwartz, J.Stepaniak, A.Sukhanov,
P.Thoerngren-Engblom, A.Turowiecki, G.J.Wagner,
Z.Wilhelmi, C.Wilkin, J.Zabierowski, J.Zlomanczuk},
journal={Physical Review, Part C, Nuclear Physics, Vol.65},
title = {Measurement of the pd -> 3He η Cross Section between 930
and 1100MeV},
year={2002},
volume={65},
doi = {http://dx.doi.org/10.1103/PhysRevC.65.044608},
pages = {44608}
}

The cross-sections reported are rather low, between 16 and 20
nanobarns, as reported by https://www-nds.iaea.org/exfor/
(which is where I found this).

Offhand, I didn't find any data on D-D fusion, but if you
can judge it that way, you probably have it.
Quadibloc
2021-07-29 05:46:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by Thomas Koenig
The cross-sections reported are rather low, between 16 and 20
nanobarns,
And, of course, it's not as if tritium decays into Helium-3 by beta emissions,
so that you could bombard deuterium with neutrons, which, not being positively
charged like deuterium nuclei, wouldn't repel them, making the cross-section higher.

Oh, no, tritium *does* decay into Helium-3. So you could make Helium-3 the
same basic way you make plutonium or U-233.

John Savard
J. Clarke
2021-07-29 10:13:14 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, 28 Jul 2021 22:46:44 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc
Post by Quadibloc
Post by Thomas Koenig
The cross-sections reported are rather low, between 16 and 20
nanobarns,
And, of course, it's not as if tritium decays into Helium-3 by beta emissions,
so that you could bombard deuterium with neutrons, which, not being positively
charged like deuterium nuclei, wouldn't repel them, making the cross-section higher.
Oh, no, tritium *does* decay into Helium-3. So you could make Helium-3 the
same basic way you make plutonium or U-233.
You mean sticking it in a fission reactor?
Thomas Koenig
2021-07-29 12:54:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Quadibloc
Post by Thomas Koenig
The cross-sections reported are rather low, between 16 and 20
nanobarns,
And, of course, it's not as if tritium decays into Helium-3 by beta emissions,
so that you could bombard deuterium with neutrons, which, not being positively
charged like deuterium nuclei, wouldn't repel them, making the cross-section higher.
Hm, I don't find any data on that, offhand.

You can get He-3 by reaction of two Deuterium nuclei, there is
ample data on that.

However, the usual method is https://www.iter.org/mach/TritiumBreeding
by bombarding Lithium with neutrons (which are also released by
Deuterium - Tritium fusion).
Post by Quadibloc
Oh, no, tritium *does* decay into Helium-3. So you could make Helium-3 the
same basic way you make plutonium or U-233.
Quadibloc
2021-07-28 22:19:54 UTC
Permalink
And then they are going to "recover" He3, which since after the fusion
reaction is over has become He4, is quite a trick.
I don't think that they're claiming to have invented *perpetual motion*.

It is not at all surprising that a fusion reaction will fail to fuse 100%
of the nuclei presented to it, so in the waste Helium-4 there no doubt
will be some _leftover_ Helium-3 present that it might be economical
to recover with a centrifuge or some such before using the Helium-4
(if it isn't radioactive due to other contaminants too difficult to
remove) to fill balloons.

John Savard
Quadibloc
2021-07-28 22:22:10 UTC
Permalink
Pretty much every company promising something that been "20 years
away" for 50+ years, fusion power, flying cars, 200 mpg engines,
whatever, has never sold anything except their stock. Hell, even
Lockheed Skunkworks has played the game.
There's no reason to believe this will be any different.
Well, they _are_ spending some of their own money to break ground
for a facility... part of me says you're right, but part of me is very
cautiously optimistic.

Of course, even if their intentions are honest, failure is possible.
And probably likely as well.

John Savard
Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
2021-07-28 22:44:53 UTC
Permalink
On Wednesday, July 28, 2021 at 4:05:22 PM UTC-6, Jibini Kula
Pretty much every company promising something that been "20
years away" for 50+ years, fusion power, flying cars, 200 mpg
engines, whatever, has never sold anything except their stock.
Hell, even Lockheed Skunkworks has played the game.
There's no reason to believe this will be any different.
Well, they _are_ spending some of their own money to break
ground for a facility...
Heh. All good scams require a little seed money to lure the marks in.
part of me says you're right, but part
of me is very cautiously optimistic.
Of course, even if their intentions are honest, failure is
possible. And probably likely as well.
IIRC, you believed we'd all have flying cars soon, too.
--
Terry Austin

Proof that Alan Baker is a liar and a fool, and even stupider than
Lynn:
https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/stats/sw-border-migration
(May 2019 total for people arrested for entering the United States
illegally is over 132,000 for just the southwest border.)

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB
J. Clarke
2021-07-28 23:07:32 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, 28 Jul 2021 15:22:10 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc
Post by Quadibloc
Pretty much every company promising something that been "20 years
away" for 50+ years, fusion power, flying cars, 200 mpg engines,
whatever, has never sold anything except their stock. Hell, even
Lockheed Skunkworks has played the game.
There's no reason to believe this will be any different.
Well, they _are_ spending some of their own money to break ground
for a facility... part of me says you're right, but part of me is very
cautiously optimistic.
Of course, even if their intentions are honest, failure is possible.
And probably likely as well.
I remember being informed sneeringly that Toyota was going to have a
cold-fusion powered car on the market by (IIRC) the year 2000. Still
waiting.
Paul S Person
2021-07-29 16:23:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Scott Lurndal
Post by Paul S Person
On Tue, 27 Jul 2021 18:26:16 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc
Post by Quadibloc
it could just be the tip of a "stupid" iceberg. If this fails to have
any real effect will they start outlawing any power supply over 400
watts?
That sort of thing is always possible. But I don't want to be
over-sensitive to such possibilities, on the grounds that it would
be hypocritical to accept government regulation of what other
people do, but not what I do.
Of course, what I'd really like is for them to start building nice
carbon-free nuclear power plants instead of restricting energy
use. But, of course, not on the San Andreas fault, which is a
problem given the current anti-nuclear hysteria (that is, other
states might not accept additional nuclear capacity to meet
California's energy needs).
If I can believe my eyes, Everett will be getting a /fusion/ power
<https://www.king5.com/article/tech/science/environment/clean-energy-power-plant-new-fusion-technology-breaks-ground-everett-helion-shell-energy/281-f87735b7-35c1-4740-ad47-a84cbdb911d8>
and some new, presumably well-paying, jobs.
Whether it ever actually generates power, and how long it takes,
remains to be seen.
https://www.helionenergy.com/faq/
1) We utilize a pulsed fusion system. This helps us overcome the hardest physics
challenges, keeps our fusion device smaller than other approaches, and allows
us to adjust the power output based on need.
2) Our system is built to directly recover electricity. Just like regenerative
braking in an electric car, our system is built to recover all unused and
new electromagnetic energy efficiently. Other fusion systems heat water to
create steam to turn a turbine which loses a lot of energy in the process.
3) We use deuterium and helium-3 (D-³He) as fuel. Helium-3 is a cleaner,
higher octane fuel. This helps keep our system small and efficient.
Time will tell. Kudos if they make it work at greater than break-even.
I want to thank everyone for their research on this.

And to say that, yes, it does sound like ... well, not a /scam/
perhaps ... but like a come-on for investors who want to get In At The
Bottom.

Who knows? It might even turn into a Ponzi scheme! What fun!

Meanwhile, IIRC, a European Tokamak is nearing completion and being
turned on and, after another 10 or 15 years of slowly ramping the
thing up, might be stably producing more power than it takes to run
it. Maybe.
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."
Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
2021-07-29 16:27:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paul S Person
Post by Scott Lurndal
Post by Paul S Person
On Tue, 27 Jul 2021 18:26:16 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc
Post by Quadibloc
it could just be the tip of a "stupid" iceberg. If this
fails to have any real effect will they start outlawing any
power supply over 400 watts?
That sort of thing is always possible. But I don't want to be
over-sensitive to such possibilities, on the grounds that it
would be hypocritical to accept government regulation of what
other people do, but not what I do.
Of course, what I'd really like is for them to start building
nice carbon-free nuclear power plants instead of restricting
energy use. But, of course, not on the San Andreas fault,
which is a problem given the current anti-nuclear hysteria
(that is, other states might not accept additional nuclear
capacity to meet California's energy needs).
If I can believe my eyes, Everett will be getting a /fusion/
<https://www.king5.com/article/tech/science/environment/clean-en
ergy-power-plant-new-fusion-technology-breaks-ground-everett-hel
ion-shell-energy/281-f87735b7-35c1-4740-ad47-a84cbdb911d8> and
some new, presumably well-paying, jobs.
Whether it ever actually generates power, and how long it
takes, remains to be seen.
https://www.helionenergy.com/faq/
Our (Helion) approach does three major things differently from
1) We utilize a pulsed fusion system. This helps us overcome the hardest physics
challenges, keeps our fusion device smaller than other
approaches, and allows us to adjust the power output based on
need.
2) Our system is built to directly recover electricity. Just
like regenerative
braking in an electric car, our system is built to recover
all unused and new electromagnetic energy efficiently. Other
fusion systems heat water to create steam to turn a turbine
which loses a lot of energy in the process.
3) We use deuterium and helium-3 (D-³He) as fuel. Helium-3 is a cleaner,
higher octane fuel. This helps keep our system small and
efficient.
Time will tell. Kudos if they make it work at greater than
break-even.
I want to thank everyone for their research on this.
And to say that, yes, it does sound like ... well, not a /scam/
perhaps ... but like a come-on for investors who want to get In
At The Bottom.
Who knows? It might even turn into a Ponzi scheme! What fun!
Meanwhile, IIRC, a European Tokamak is nearing completion and
being turned on and, after another 10 or 15 years of slowly
ramping the thing up, might be stably producing more power than
it takes to run it. Maybe.
Only 20 years away, and has been for 75 years.

Government funded projects like that are about pork barrel
politics, and science rarely, if ever, gets done, and then only by
accident.
--
Terry Austin

Proof that Alan Baker is a liar and a fool, and even stupider than
Lynn:
https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/stats/sw-border-migration
(May 2019 total for people arrested for entering the United States
illegally is over 132,000 for just the southwest border.)

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB
Paul S Person
2021-07-30 15:42:24 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 29 Jul 2021 09:27:20 -0700, Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
Post by Paul S Person
Post by Scott Lurndal
Post by Paul S Person
On Tue, 27 Jul 2021 18:26:16 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc
Post by Quadibloc
it could just be the tip of a "stupid" iceberg. If this
fails to have any real effect will they start outlawing any
power supply over 400 watts?
That sort of thing is always possible. But I don't want to be
over-sensitive to such possibilities, on the grounds that it
would be hypocritical to accept government regulation of what
other people do, but not what I do.
Of course, what I'd really like is for them to start building
nice carbon-free nuclear power plants instead of restricting
energy use. But, of course, not on the San Andreas fault,
which is a problem given the current anti-nuclear hysteria
(that is, other states might not accept additional nuclear
capacity to meet California's energy needs).
If I can believe my eyes, Everett will be getting a /fusion/
<https://www.king5.com/article/tech/science/environment/clean-en
ergy-power-plant-new-fusion-technology-breaks-ground-everett-hel
ion-shell-energy/281-f87735b7-35c1-4740-ad47-a84cbdb911d8> and
some new, presumably well-paying, jobs.
Whether it ever actually generates power, and how long it
takes, remains to be seen.
https://www.helionenergy.com/faq/
1) We utilize a pulsed fusion system. This helps us overcome the hardest physics
challenges, keeps our fusion device smaller than other
approaches, and allows us to adjust the power output based on
need.
2) Our system is built to directly recover electricity. Just
like regenerative
braking in an electric car, our system is built to recover
all unused and new electromagnetic energy efficiently. Other
fusion systems heat water to create steam to turn a turbine
which loses a lot of energy in the process.
3) We use deuterium and helium-3 (D-³He) as fuel. Helium-3 is a cleaner,
higher octane fuel. This helps keep our system small and
efficient.
Time will tell. Kudos if they make it work at greater than
break-even.
I want to thank everyone for their research on this.
And to say that, yes, it does sound like ... well, not a /scam/
perhaps ... but like a come-on for investors who want to get In
At The Bottom.
Who knows? It might even turn into a Ponzi scheme! What fun!
Meanwhile, IIRC, a European Tokamak is nearing completion and
being turned on and, after another 10 or 15 years of slowly
ramping the thing up, might be stably producing more power than
it takes to run it. Maybe.
Only 20 years away, and has been for 75 years.
Government funded projects like that are about pork barrel
politics, and science rarely, if ever, gets done, and then only by
accident.
I suspect you are referring to the European Tokamak, as the Everett
plant is (AFAIK) not gummint funded. The article was touting it as
private enterprise winning again! Like with the development of space
rockets that /actually land on their tail/.

The Everett project should pump a lot of money into the economy for a
decade or so, at least. If it works, that would be even better.
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."
Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
2021-07-30 19:04:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paul S Person
On Thu, 29 Jul 2021 09:27:20 -0700, Jibini Kula Tumbili
Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
Post by Paul S Person
Post by Scott Lurndal
Post by Paul S Person
On Tue, 27 Jul 2021 18:26:16 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc
On Tuesday, July 27, 2021 at 7:20:49 PM UTC-6, Magewolf
it could just be the tip of a "stupid" iceberg. If this
fails to have any real effect will they start outlawing
any power supply over 400 watts?
That sort of thing is always possible. But I don't want to
be over-sensitive to such possibilities, on the grounds that
it would be hypocritical to accept government regulation of
what other people do, but not what I do.
Of course, what I'd really like is for them to start
building nice carbon-free nuclear power plants instead of
restricting energy use. But, of course, not on the San
Andreas fault, which is a problem given the current
anti-nuclear hysteria (that is, other states might not
accept additional nuclear capacity to meet California's
energy needs).
If I can believe my eyes, Everett will be getting a /fusion/
power plant ... or, at least, a building intended to hold
<https://www.king5.com/article/tech/science/environment/clean-
en
ergy-power-plant-new-fusion-technology-breaks-ground-everett-h
el ion-shell-energy/281-f87735b7-35c1-4740-ad47-a84cbdb911d8>
and some new, presumably well-paying, jobs.
Whether it ever actually generates power, and how long it
takes, remains to be seen.
https://www.helionenergy.com/faq/
1) We utilize a pulsed fusion system. This helps us overcome
the hardest physics
challenges, keeps our fusion device smaller than other
approaches, and allows us to adjust the power output based
on need.
2) Our system is built to directly recover electricity. Just
like regenerative
braking in an electric car, our system is built to recover
all unused and new electromagnetic energy efficiently.
Other fusion systems heat water to create steam to turn a
turbine which loses a lot of energy in the process.
3) We use deuterium and helium-3 (D-³He) as fuel. Helium-3 is a cleaner,
higher octane fuel. This helps keep our system small and
efficient.
Time will tell. Kudos if they make it work at greater than
break-even.
I want to thank everyone for their research on this.
And to say that, yes, it does sound like ... well, not a
/scam/ perhaps ... but like a come-on for investors who want
to get In At The Bottom.
Who knows? It might even turn into a Ponzi scheme! What fun!
Meanwhile, IIRC, a European Tokamak is nearing completion and
being turned on and, after another 10 or 15 years of slowly
ramping the thing up, might be stably producing more power
than it takes to run it. Maybe.
Only 20 years away, and has been for 75 years.
Government funded projects like that are about pork barrel
politics, and science rarely, if ever, gets done, and then only
by accident.
I suspect you are referring to the European Tokamak, as the
Everett plant is (AFAIK) not gummint funded.
I do not believe for one second that this "privately funded" effort
does not involved tax dollars somewhere.
Post by Paul S Person
The article was
touting it as private enterprise winning again! Like with the
development of space rockets that /actually land on their tail/.
In the same way that SpaceX is "privately funded," but couldn't
exist in any recognizable form with contracts from . . . taxpayer
funded NASA.
Post by Paul S Person
The Everett project should pump a lot of money into the economy
for a decade or so, at least. If it works, that would be even
better.
20 years away, and has been for 75 years. I'll believe it when I
see it.
--
Terry Austin

Proof that Alan Baker is a liar and a fool, and even stupider than
Lynn:
https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/stats/sw-border-migration
(May 2019 total for people arrested for entering the United States
illegally is over 132,000 for just the southwest border.)

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB
Paul S Person
2021-07-31 16:41:46 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 30 Jul 2021 12:04:00 -0700, Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
Post by Paul S Person
On Thu, 29 Jul 2021 09:27:20 -0700, Jibini Kula Tumbili
Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
Post by Paul S Person
Post by Scott Lurndal
Post by Paul S Person
On Tue, 27 Jul 2021 18:26:16 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc
On Tuesday, July 27, 2021 at 7:20:49 PM UTC-6, Magewolf
it could just be the tip of a "stupid" iceberg. If this
fails to have any real effect will they start outlawing
any power supply over 400 watts?
That sort of thing is always possible. But I don't want to
be over-sensitive to such possibilities, on the grounds that
it would be hypocritical to accept government regulation of
what other people do, but not what I do.
Of course, what I'd really like is for them to start
building nice carbon-free nuclear power plants instead of
restricting energy use. But, of course, not on the San
Andreas fault, which is a problem given the current
anti-nuclear hysteria (that is, other states might not
accept additional nuclear capacity to meet California's
energy needs).
If I can believe my eyes, Everett will be getting a /fusion/
power plant ... or, at least, a building intended to hold
<https://www.king5.com/article/tech/science/environment/clean-
en
ergy-power-plant-new-fusion-technology-breaks-ground-everett-h
el ion-shell-energy/281-f87735b7-35c1-4740-ad47-a84cbdb911d8>
and some new, presumably well-paying, jobs.
Whether it ever actually generates power, and how long it
takes, remains to be seen.
https://www.helionenergy.com/faq/
Our (Helion) approach does three major things differently from
1) We utilize a pulsed fusion system. This helps us overcome the hardest physics
challenges, keeps our fusion device smaller than other
approaches, and allows us to adjust the power output based
on need.
2) Our system is built to directly recover electricity. Just like regenerative
braking in an electric car, our system is built to recover
all unused and new electromagnetic energy efficiently.
Other fusion systems heat water to create steam to turn a
turbine which loses a lot of energy in the process.
3) We use deuterium and helium-3 (D-³He) as fuel. Helium-3 is a cleaner,
higher octane fuel. This helps keep our system small and
efficient.
Time will tell. Kudos if they make it work at greater than
break-even.
I want to thank everyone for their research on this.
And to say that, yes, it does sound like ... well, not a
/scam/ perhaps ... but like a come-on for investors who want
to get In At The Bottom.
Who knows? It might even turn into a Ponzi scheme! What fun!
Meanwhile, IIRC, a European Tokamak is nearing completion and
being turned on and, after another 10 or 15 years of slowly
ramping the thing up, might be stably producing more power
than it takes to run it. Maybe.
Only 20 years away, and has been for 75 years.
Government funded projects like that are about pork barrel
politics, and science rarely, if ever, gets done, and then only
by accident.
I suspect you are referring to the European Tokamak, as the
Everett plant is (AFAIK) not gummint funded.
I do not believe for one second that this "privately funded" effort
does not involved tax dollars somewhere.
Post by Paul S Person
The article was
touting it as private enterprise winning again! Like with the
development of space rockets that /actually land on their tail/.
In the same way that SpaceX is "privately funded," but couldn't
exist in any recognizable form with contracts from . . . taxpayer
funded NASA.
I doubt that NASA is involved, but, yes there may be /some/ gummint
money in it. Nonetheless, the article I read was extolling the virtues
of private capital breaking through technical barriers that gummints
don't seem able to pierce.
Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
Post by Paul S Person
The Everett project should pump a lot of money into the economy
for a decade or so, at least. If it works, that would be even
better.
20 years away, and has been for 75 years. I'll believe it when I
see it.
That I agree with.
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."
Ninapenda Jibini
2021-07-31 17:09:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paul S Person
On Fri, 30 Jul 2021 12:04:00 -0700, Jibini Kula Tumbili
Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
Post by Paul S Person
On Thu, 29 Jul 2021 09:27:20 -0700, Jibini Kula Tumbili
Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
Post by Paul S Person
Post by Scott Lurndal
Post by Paul S Person
On Tue, 27 Jul 2021 18:26:16 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc
On Tuesday, July 27, 2021 at 7:20:49 PM UTC-6, Magewolf
it could just be the tip of a "stupid" iceberg. If this
fails to have any real effect will they start outlawing
any power supply over 400 watts?
That sort of thing is always possible. But I don't want to
be over-sensitive to such possibilities, on the grounds
that it would be hypocritical to accept government
regulation of what other people do, but not what I do.
Of course, what I'd really like is for them to start
building nice carbon-free nuclear power plants instead of
restricting energy use. But, of course, not on the San
Andreas fault, which is a problem given the current
anti-nuclear hysteria (that is, other states might not
accept additional nuclear capacity to meet California's
energy needs).
If I can believe my eyes, Everett will be getting a
/fusion/ power plant ... or, at least, a building intended
<https://www.king5.com/article/tech/science/environment/clea
n- en
ergy-power-plant-new-fusion-technology-breaks-ground-everett
-h el
ion-shell-energy/281-f87735b7-35c1-4740-ad47-a84cbdb911d8>
and some new, presumably well-paying, jobs.
Whether it ever actually generates power, and how long it
takes, remains to be seen.
https://www.helionenergy.com/faq/
Our (Helion) approach does three major things differently
1) We utilize a pulsed fusion system. This helps us overcome the hardest physics
challenges, keeps our fusion device smaller than other
approaches, and allows us to adjust the power output
based on need.
2) Our system is built to directly recover electricity. Just like regenerative
braking in an electric car, our system is built to
recover all unused and new electromagnetic energy
efficiently. Other fusion systems heat water to create
steam to turn a turbine which loses a lot of energy in
the process.
3) We use deuterium and helium-3 (D-³He) as fuel. Helium-3 is a cleaner,
higher octane fuel. This helps keep our system small and efficient.
Time will tell. Kudos if they make it work at greater than break-even.
I want to thank everyone for their research on this.
And to say that, yes, it does sound like ... well, not a
/scam/ perhaps ... but like a come-on for investors who want
to get In At The Bottom.
Who knows? It might even turn into a Ponzi scheme! What fun!
Meanwhile, IIRC, a European Tokamak is nearing completion
and being turned on and, after another 10 or 15 years of
slowly ramping the thing up, might be stably producing more
power than it takes to run it. Maybe.
Only 20 years away, and has been for 75 years.
Government funded projects like that are about pork barrel
politics, and science rarely, if ever, gets done, and then
only by accident.
I suspect you are referring to the European Tokamak, as the
Everett plant is (AFAIK) not gummint funded.
I do not believe for one second that this "privately funded"
effort does not involved tax dollars somewhere.
Post by Paul S Person
The article was
touting it as private enterprise winning again! Like with the
development of space rockets that /actually land on their
tail/.
In the same way that SpaceX is "privately funded," but couldn't
exist in any recognizable form with contracts from . . .
taxpayer funded NASA.
I doubt that NASA is involved,
You doubt that NASA is involved in SpaceX? Fucking moron.
Post by Paul S Person
but, yes there may be /some/
gummint money in it.
Which means it's not entirely *privately* funded, retard.

Once again, you're arguing with something you have explicitly
agreed with.

You're a real special kind of retard.
--
Terry Austin

Proof that Alan Baker is a liar and a fool, and even stupider than
Lynn:
https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/stats/sw-border-migration


"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.
Paul S Person
2021-08-01 16:41:12 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 31 Jul 2021 17:09:04 GMT, Ninapenda Jibini
Post by Ninapenda Jibini
Post by Paul S Person
On Fri, 30 Jul 2021 12:04:00 -0700, Jibini Kula Tumbili
Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
Post by Paul S Person
On Thu, 29 Jul 2021 09:27:20 -0700, Jibini Kula Tumbili
Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
Post by Paul S Person
Post by Scott Lurndal
Post by Paul S Person
On Tue, 27 Jul 2021 18:26:16 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc
On Tuesday, July 27, 2021 at 7:20:49 PM UTC-6, Magewolf
it could just be the tip of a "stupid" iceberg. If this
fails to have any real effect will they start outlawing
any power supply over 400 watts?
That sort of thing is always possible. But I don't want to
be over-sensitive to such possibilities, on the grounds
that it would be hypocritical to accept government
regulation of what other people do, but not what I do.
Of course, what I'd really like is for them to start
building nice carbon-free nuclear power plants instead of
restricting energy use. But, of course, not on the San
Andreas fault, which is a problem given the current
anti-nuclear hysteria (that is, other states might not
accept additional nuclear capacity to meet California's
energy needs).
If I can believe my eyes, Everett will be getting a
/fusion/ power plant ... or, at least, a building intended
<https://www.king5.com/article/tech/science/environment/clea
n- en
ergy-power-plant-new-fusion-technology-breaks-ground-everett
-h el
ion-shell-energy/281-f87735b7-35c1-4740-ad47-a84cbdb911d8>
and some new, presumably well-paying, jobs.
Whether it ever actually generates power, and how long it
takes, remains to be seen.
https://www.helionenergy.com/faq/
Our (Helion) approach does three major things differently
1) We utilize a pulsed fusion system. This helps us overcome the hardest physics
challenges, keeps our fusion device smaller than other
approaches, and allows us to adjust the power output
based on need.
2) Our system is built to directly recover electricity. Just like regenerative
braking in an electric car, our system is built to
recover all unused and new electromagnetic energy
efficiently. Other fusion systems heat water to create
steam to turn a turbine which loses a lot of energy in
the process.
3) We use deuterium and helium-3 (D-³He) as fuel. Helium-3 is a cleaner,
higher octane fuel. This helps keep our system small and efficient.
Time will tell. Kudos if they make it work at greater than break-even.
I want to thank everyone for their research on this.
And to say that, yes, it does sound like ... well, not a
/scam/ perhaps ... but like a come-on for investors who want
to get In At The Bottom.
Who knows? It might even turn into a Ponzi scheme! What fun!
Meanwhile, IIRC, a European Tokamak is nearing completion
and being turned on and, after another 10 or 15 years of
slowly ramping the thing up, might be stably producing more
power than it takes to run it. Maybe.
Only 20 years away, and has been for 75 years.
Government funded projects like that are about pork barrel
politics, and science rarely, if ever, gets done, and then
only by accident.
I suspect you are referring to the European Tokamak, as the
Everett plant is (AFAIK) not gummint funded.
I do not believe for one second that this "privately funded"
effort does not involved tax dollars somewhere.
Post by Paul S Person
The article was
touting it as private enterprise winning again! Like with the
development of space rockets that /actually land on their
tail/.
In the same way that SpaceX is "privately funded," but couldn't
exist in any recognizable form with contracts from . . .
taxpayer funded NASA.
I doubt that NASA is involved,
You doubt that NASA is involved in SpaceX?
<bot-talk snipped>

I should have been clearer:

I doubt that NASA is involved in the Everett fusion project.
Post by Ninapenda Jibini
Post by Paul S Person
but, yes there may be /some/
gummint money in it.
Which means it's not entirely *privately* funded, retard.
It /may/ not be, as their /may/ be some gummint dollars in it.

Nonetheless, private funding was what the article was touting.

<bot-talk snipped>
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."
Ninapenda Jibini
2021-08-01 21:52:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paul S Person
On Sat, 31 Jul 2021 17:09:04 GMT, Ninapenda Jibini
Post by Ninapenda Jibini
Post by Paul S Person
On Fri, 30 Jul 2021 12:04:00 -0700, Jibini Kula Tumbili
Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
Post by Paul S Person
On Thu, 29 Jul 2021 09:27:20 -0700, Jibini Kula Tumbili
Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
Post by Paul S Person
Post by Scott Lurndal
Post by Paul S Person
On Tue, 27 Jul 2021 18:26:16 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc
Post by Quadibloc
it could just be the tip of a "stupid" iceberg. If
this fails to have any real effect will they start
outlawing any power supply over 400 watts?
That sort of thing is always possible. But I don't want
to be over-sensitive to such possibilities, on the
grounds that it would be hypocritical to accept
government regulation of what other people do, but not
what I do.
Of course, what I'd really like is for them to start
building nice carbon-free nuclear power plants instead
of restricting energy use. But, of course, not on the
San Andreas fault, which is a problem given the current
anti-nuclear hysteria (that is, other states might not
accept additional nuclear capacity to meet California's
energy needs).
If I can believe my eyes, Everett will be getting a
/fusion/ power plant ... or, at least, a building
<https://www.king5.com/article/tech/science/environment/cl
ea n- en
ergy-power-plant-new-fusion-technology-breaks-ground-evere
tt -h el
ion-shell-energy/281-f87735b7-35c1-4740-ad47-a84cbdb911d8>
and some new, presumably well-paying, jobs.
Whether it ever actually generates power, and how long it
takes, remains to be seen.
https://www.helionenergy.com/faq/
Our (Helion) approach does three major things differently
1) We utilize a pulsed fusion system. This helps us
overcome the hardest physics
challenges, keeps our fusion device smaller than other
approaches, and allows us to adjust the power output
based on need.
2) Our system is built to directly recover electricity.
Just like regenerative
braking in an electric car, our system is built to
recover all unused and new electromagnetic energy
efficiently. Other fusion systems heat water to create
steam to turn a turbine which loses a lot of energy in
the process.
3) We use deuterium and helium-3 (D-³He) as fuel. Helium-3 is a cleaner,
higher octane fuel. This helps keep our system small
and efficient.
Time will tell. Kudos if they make it work at greater
than break-even.
I want to thank everyone for their research on this.
And to say that, yes, it does sound like ... well, not a
/scam/ perhaps ... but like a come-on for investors who
want to get In At The Bottom.
Who knows? It might even turn into a Ponzi scheme! What
fun!
Meanwhile, IIRC, a European Tokamak is nearing completion
and being turned on and, after another 10 or 15 years of
slowly ramping the thing up, might be stably producing
more power than it takes to run it. Maybe.
Only 20 years away, and has been for 75 years.
Government funded projects like that are about pork barrel
politics, and science rarely, if ever, gets done, and then
only by accident.
I suspect you are referring to the European Tokamak, as the
Everett plant is (AFAIK) not gummint funded.
I do not believe for one second that this "privately funded"
effort does not involved tax dollars somewhere.
Post by Paul S Person
The article was
touting it as private enterprise winning again! Like with
the development of space rockets that /actually land on
their tail/.
In the same way that SpaceX is "privately funded," but
couldn't exist in any recognizable form with contracts from .
. . taxpayer funded NASA.
I doubt that NASA is involved,
You doubt that NASA is involved in SpaceX?
<bot-talk snipped>
Chickenshit coward.
But you weren't. You claimed that NASA isn't involved with SpaceX.
Post by Paul S Person
I doubt that NASA is involved in the Everett fusion project.
I never said they were, retard. In fact, that is so far from what
I said, it is literally more plausible that you mean to say that
NASA isn't involved in SpaceX.

Because you're *that* stupid.
Post by Paul S Person
Post by Ninapenda Jibini
Post by Paul S Person
but, yes there may be /some/
gummint money in it.
Which means it's not entirely *privately* funded, retard.
It /may/ not be, as their /may/ be some gummint dollars in it.
You'll need to provide proof (you won't) there isn't before
anybody who isn't as menally ill as you (there aren't many who
are) will believe it.
Post by Paul S Person
Nonetheless, private funding was what the article was touting.
And web pages never lie or mislead in any way whatsoever, in fact,
it's impossible for them to ever do so, right?

In your diseased fantasy world.
Post by Paul S Person
<bot-talk snipped>
Chickenshit coward.
--
Terry Austin

Proof that Alan Baker is a liar and a fool, and even stupider than
Lynn: https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/stats/sw-border-migration


"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.
Paul S Person
2021-08-02 16:49:27 UTC
Permalink
On Sun, 01 Aug 2021 21:52:54 GMT, Ninapenda Jibini
Post by Paul S Person
On Sat, 31 Jul 2021 17:09:04 GMT, Ninapenda Jibini
And, once again, a potentially pleasant and informative discussion is
destroyed by your inability to relate to other people.

Pity.
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."
Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
2021-08-02 17:19:08 UTC
Permalink
Once again, you cannot respond to anything I've said, so you snip it
all out and insult me.

As usual.
--
Terry Austin

Proof that Alan Baker is a liar and a fool, and even stupider than
Lynn:
https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/stats/sw-border-migration
(May 2019 total for people arrested for entering the United States
illegally is over 132,000 for just the southwest border.)

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB
Quadibloc
2021-07-30 02:40:25 UTC
Permalink
But hypocrisy is a core value of the left! You're not being a good
little sheeple today.
Just a few days after you posted this, my new chest freezer arrived.

And so I finally found a reason to agree with you.

Although I think that global warming is a bad idea, and I recognize the need
to avoid damaging the ozone layer, while changing from chlorinated flurocarbons
to fluorocarbons to reduce the danger to the ozone layer was acceptable...

changing from fluorocarbons, because they're greenhouse gases, to cyclopentane
as a refrigerant, with an attendant risk of fire and explosion, is going further in
respect of the environment than I would prefer.

So whether one calls it "hypocrisy" or "setting sensible priorities", I can't
endorse liberal ideological purity.

John Savard
pete...@gmail.com
2021-07-30 03:17:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Quadibloc
But hypocrisy is a core value of the left! You're not being a good
little sheeple today.
Just a few days after you posted this, my new chest freezer arrived.
And so I finally found a reason to agree with you.
Although I think that global warming is a bad idea, and I recognize the need
to avoid damaging the ozone layer, while changing from chlorinated flurocarbons
to fluorocarbons to reduce the danger to the ozone layer was acceptable...
changing from fluorocarbons, because they're greenhouse gases, to cyclopentane
as a refrigerant, with an attendant risk of fire and explosion, is going further in
respect of the environment than I would prefer.
So whether one calls it "hypocrisy" or "setting sensible priorities", I can't
endorse liberal ideological purity.
At least we haven't gone back to ammonia as a refrigerant. How families used
to wake up dead.

Pt
pete...@gmail.com
2021-07-30 03:19:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by ***@gmail.com
Post by Quadibloc
But hypocrisy is a core value of the left! You're not being a good
little sheeple today.
Just a few days after you posted this, my new chest freezer arrived.
And so I finally found a reason to agree with you.
Although I think that global warming is a bad idea, and I recognize the need
to avoid damaging the ozone layer, while changing from chlorinated flurocarbons
to fluorocarbons to reduce the danger to the ozone layer was acceptable...
changing from fluorocarbons, because they're greenhouse gases, to cyclopentane
as a refrigerant, with an attendant risk of fire and explosion, is going further in
respect of the environment than I would prefer.
So whether one calls it "hypocrisy" or "setting sensible priorities", I can't
endorse liberal ideological purity.
At least we haven't gone back to ammonia as a refrigerant. How families used
Autocorrect strike again!
Post by ***@gmail.com
to wake up dead. ^whole families...
Pt
Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
2021-07-30 19:01:10 UTC
Permalink
On Thursday, July 29, 2021 at 10:40:27 PM UTC-4, Quadibloc
On Wednesday, July 28, 2021 at 10:17:24 AM UTC-6, Jibini Kula
But hypocrisy is a core value of the left! You're not being a
good little sheeple today.
Just a few days after you posted this, my new chest freezer
arrived.
And so I finally found a reason to agree with you.
Although I think that global warming is a bad idea, and I
recognize the need to avoid damaging the ozone layer, while
changing from chlorinated flurocarbons to fluorocarbons to
reduce the danger to the ozone layer was acceptable...
changing from fluorocarbons, because they're greenhouse gases,
to cyclopentane as a refrigerant, with an attendant risk of
fire and explosion, is going further in respect of the
environment than I would prefer.
So whether one calls it "hypocrisy" or "setting sensible
priorities", I can't endorse liberal ideological purity.
At least we haven't gone back to ammonia as a refrigerant. How
families used to wake up dead.
For some of the extreme left, that would be a desirable result.
--
Terry Austin

Proof that Alan Baker is a liar and a fool, and even stupider than
Lynn:
https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/stats/sw-border-migration
(May 2019 total for people arrested for entering the United States
illegally is over 132,000 for just the southwest border.)

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB
Alan Baker
2021-07-30 19:48:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
On Thursday, July 29, 2021 at 10:40:27 PM UTC-4, Quadibloc
On Wednesday, July 28, 2021 at 10:17:24 AM UTC-6, Jibini Kula
But hypocrisy is a core value of the left! You're not being a
good little sheeple today.
Just a few days after you posted this, my new chest freezer
arrived.
And so I finally found a reason to agree with you.
Although I think that global warming is a bad idea, and I
recognize the need to avoid damaging the ozone layer, while
changing from chlorinated flurocarbons to fluorocarbons to
reduce the danger to the ozone layer was acceptable...
changing from fluorocarbons, because they're greenhouse gases,
to cyclopentane as a refrigerant, with an attendant risk of
fire and explosion, is going further in respect of the
environment than I would prefer.
So whether one calls it "hypocrisy" or "setting sensible
priorities", I can't endorse liberal ideological purity.
At least we haven't gone back to ammonia as a refrigerant. How
families used to wake up dead.
For some of the extreme left, that would be a desirable result.
Get the mental help you so very much need, dude.
Quadibloc
2021-07-30 22:17:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alan Baker
Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
For some of the extreme left, that would be a desirable result.
Get the mental help you so very much need, dude.
It certainly is true that if by "extreme left" you mean people like
Alexandria Occasio-Cortez, she certainly doesn't want people to
fail to wake up because of ammonia in refrigerators.

However, there are some people into "deep ecology" who wouldn't
mind some natural disaster thinning out the human race so that the
rest of the Earth's ecosphere could get on with healing. So, while
he has other behaviors which might lead to your conclusion, this
statement is not delusional.

John Savard
J. Clarke
2021-07-30 23:06:52 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 30 Jul 2021 15:17:47 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc
Post by Quadibloc
Post by Alan Baker
Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
For some of the extreme left, that would be a desirable result.
Get the mental help you so very much need, dude.
It certainly is true that if by "extreme left" you mean people like
Alexandria Occasio-Cortez, she certainly doesn't want people to
fail to wake up because of ammonia in refrigerators.
Can she even _spell_ "ammonia"?
Post by Quadibloc
However, there are some people into "deep ecology" who wouldn't
mind some natural disaster thinning out the human race so that the
rest of the Earth's ecosphere could get on with healing. So, while
he has other behaviors which might lead to your conclusion, this
statement is not delusional.
John Savard
Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
2021-07-30 23:23:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by J. Clarke
On Fri, 30 Jul 2021 15:17:47 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc
Post by Quadibloc
On 2021-07-30 12:01 p.m., Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
For some of the extreme left, that would be a desirable
result.
Get the mental help you so very much need, dude.
It certainly is true that if by "extreme left" you mean people
like Alexandria Occasio-Cortez, she certainly doesn't want
people to fail to wake up because of ammonia in refrigerators.
Can she even _spell_ "ammonia"?
Only if her handles put it on the teleprompter.
--
Terry Austin

Proof that Alan Baker is a liar and a fool, and even stupider than
Lynn:
https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/stats/sw-border-migration
(May 2019 total for people arrested for entering the United States
illegally is over 132,000 for just the southwest border.)

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB
Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
2021-07-30 23:22:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by Quadibloc
On 2021-07-30 12:01 p.m., Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
For some of the extreme left, that would be a desirable
result.
Get the mental help you so very much need, dude.
It certainly is true that if by "extreme left" you mean people
like Alexandria Occasio-Cortez, she certainly doesn't want
people to fail to wake up because of ammonia in refrigerators.
However, there are some people into "deep ecology" who wouldn't
mind some natural disaster thinning out the human race so that
the rest of the Earth's ecosphere could get on with healing. So,
while he has other behaviors which might lead to your
conclusion, this statement is not delusional.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voluntary_Human_Extinction_Movement

Alan's projecting again. Sounds like he's off his meds.
--
Terry Austin

Proof that Alan Baker is a liar and a fool, and even stupider than
Lynn:
https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/stats/sw-border-migration
(May 2019 total for people arrested for entering the United States
illegally is over 132,000 for just the southwest border.)

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB
Kevrob
2021-07-31 01:17:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Quadibloc
Post by Alan Baker
Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
For some of the extreme left, that would be a desirable result.
Get the mental help you so very much need, dude.
It certainly is true that if by "extreme left" you mean people like
Alexandria Occasio-Cortez, she certainly doesn't want people to
fail to wake up because of ammonia in refrigerators.
However, there are some people into "deep ecology" who wouldn't
mind some natural disaster thinning out the human race so that the
rest of the Earth's ecosphere could get on with healing. So, while
he has other behaviors which might lead to your conclusion, this
statement is not delusional.
Why wait for a meteor, an asteroid, the next plague.....

http://www.vhemt.org/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voluntary_Human_Extinction_Movement

I'm not much of a joiner, but I don't have kids.
--
Kevin R
a.a #2310
Dorothy J Heydt
2021-07-31 03:25:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Quadibloc
Post by Alan Baker
Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
For some of the extreme left, that would be a desirable result.
Get the mental help you so very much need, dude.
It certainly is true that if by "extreme left" you mean people like
Alexandria Occasio-Cortez, she certainly doesn't want people to
fail to wake up because of ammonia in refrigerators.
However, there are some people into "deep ecology" who wouldn't
mind some natural disaster thinning out the human race so that the
rest of the Earth's ecosphere could get on with healing.
COVID may do that for them. That thought keeps coming into my
head, and I try to make it go away. We do need to reduce the
planet's human population, but not by killing anybody, nor by
letting them die before their time.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/
Quadibloc
2021-07-31 06:35:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Quadibloc
However, there are some people into "deep ecology" who wouldn't
mind some natural disaster thinning out the human race so that the
rest of the Earth's ecosphere could get on with healing.
COVID may do that for them. That thought keeps coming into my
head, and I try to make it go away. We do need to reduce the
planet's human population, but not by killing anybody, nor by
letting them die before their time.
I was just reading that the CDC in the United States has determined
that the Delta variant is significantly more contagious than even the
common cold, and is instead comparable to chickenpox.

I am now even more concerned about it than I had previously
been. There have been quite a few cases in Calgary.

John Savard
pete...@gmail.com
2021-07-31 15:01:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Quadibloc
Post by Quadibloc
However, there are some people into "deep ecology" who wouldn't
mind some natural disaster thinning out the human race so that the
rest of the Earth's ecosphere could get on with healing.
COVID may do that for them. That thought keeps coming into my
head, and I try to make it go away. We do need to reduce the
planet's human population, but not by killing anybody, nor by
letting them die before their time.
I was just reading that the CDC in the United States has determined
that the Delta variant is significantly more contagious than even the
common cold, and is instead comparable to chickenpox.
I am now even more concerned about it than I had previously
been. There have been quite a few cases in Calgary.
...and just as you don't personally worry about chickenpox since you're
vaccinated, the COVID vaccines provide a high degree of protection
against the Delta Strain.


Pt
Paul S Person
2021-07-31 16:24:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by ***@gmail.com
Post by Quadibloc
Post by Quadibloc
However, there are some people into "deep ecology" who wouldn't
mind some natural disaster thinning out the human race so that the
rest of the Earth's ecosphere could get on with healing.
COVID may do that for them. That thought keeps coming into my
head, and I try to make it go away. We do need to reduce the
planet's human population, but not by killing anybody, nor by
letting them die before their time.
I was just reading that the CDC in the United States has determined
that the Delta variant is significantly more contagious than even the
common cold, and is instead comparable to chickenpox.
I am now even more concerned about it than I had previously
been. There have been quite a few cases in Calgary.
...and just as you don't personally worry about chickenpox since you're
vaccinated, the COVID vaccines provide a high degree of protection
against the Delta Strain.
The problem is that, unlike chickenpox, COVID mutates a lot. Delta
very likely won't be the last, and, like the Andromeda Strain, we may
/never/ be rid of it.

Another problem with COVID is, of course, that a /major political
party/ has decided to treat it as a joke to keep their base voting for
them. Only as it occurs to them that it is /their base/ that make up
most of those catching/dying from Delta are they beginning to change
their tune.

Biden is and should try to convince the non-vaxxers to get vaccinated.
But the responsibility for changing their minds lies with Trump and
his buddies: they created this mess, they need to clean it up.

And do so soon. More than half the population is vaccinated, and that
half is running out of tolerance for those who are not, creating
political pressure for mandates. Enforcable mandates. Mandates that
are, in fact, enforced.

Nationwide.
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."
Robert Carnegie
2021-08-01 08:18:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by ***@gmail.com
Post by Quadibloc
Post by Quadibloc
However, there are some people into "deep ecology" who wouldn't
mind some natural disaster thinning out the human race so that the
rest of the Earth's ecosphere could get on with healing.
COVID may do that for them. That thought keeps coming into my
head, and I try to make it go away. We do need to reduce the
planet's human population, but not by killing anybody, nor by
letting them die before their time.
I was just reading that the CDC in the United States has determined
that the Delta variant is significantly more contagious than even the
common cold, and is instead comparable to chickenpox.
I am now even more concerned about it than I had previously
been. There have been quite a few cases in Calgary.
...and just as you don't personally worry about chickenpox since you're
vaccinated, the COVID vaccines provide a high degree of protection
against the Delta Strain.
Not high enough that you don't need to take care.
You still /can/ be infected, but less likely, and you're
less likely to get badly sick. But you can infect other
people just as well as if you were. You even may find
a new variant that kills vaccinated people, though
probably the virus is happy enough without doing that.

But who knows what the virus will do next? If it
starts killing swathes of kids, then the joke is on us!
Andrew McDowell
2021-08-01 10:57:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by ***@gmail.com
Post by Quadibloc
Post by Quadibloc
However, there are some people into "deep ecology" who wouldn't
mind some natural disaster thinning out the human race so that the
rest of the Earth's ecosphere could get on with healing.
COVID may do that for them. That thought keeps coming into my
head, and I try to make it go away. We do need to reduce the
planet's human population, but not by killing anybody, nor by
letting them die before their time.
I was just reading that the CDC in the United States has determined
that the Delta variant is significantly more contagious than even the
common cold, and is instead comparable to chickenpox.
I am now even more concerned about it than I had previously
been. There have been quite a few cases in Calgary.
...and just as you don't personally worry about chickenpox since you're
vaccinated, the COVID vaccines provide a high degree of protection
against the Delta Strain.
Not high enough that you don't need to take care.
You still /can/ be infected, but less likely, and you're
less likely to get badly sick. But you can infect other
people just as well as if you were. You even may find
a new variant that kills vaccinated people, though
probably the virus is happy enough without doing that.
But who knows what the virus will do next? If it
starts killing swathes of kids, then the joke is on us!
The transmissibility of Delta in a vaccinated population is contraversial - see e.g. https://statmodeling.stat.columbia.edu/2021/07/31/infections-in-vaccinated-americans-are-rare-compared-with-those-in-unvaccinated-people-but-when-they-occur-vaccinated-people-may-spread-the-virus-just-as-easily/ IMHO it is plausible that people who get equally sick release equal quantities of virus, vaccinated or not, but OTOH people who are vaccinated tend not to get as sick with Delta, if they get sick at all. So it is entirely possible that Delta transmits much less readily in a vaccinated population. This would be consistent with experience with almost every other virus for which vaccination is successful, and indeed reduction in transmission is very often one of the major goals of vaccination.

For doom-watchers, there have been some UK govenment papers speculating on the arrival of much more lethal variants, but as far as I know these are simply speculation and contigency planning.
J. Clarke
2021-08-01 11:35:10 UTC
Permalink
On Sun, 1 Aug 2021 03:57:24 -0700 (PDT), Andrew McDowell
Post by Andrew McDowell
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by ***@gmail.com
Post by Quadibloc
Post by Quadibloc
However, there are some people into "deep ecology" who wouldn't
mind some natural disaster thinning out the human race so that the
rest of the Earth's ecosphere could get on with healing.
COVID may do that for them. That thought keeps coming into my
head, and I try to make it go away. We do need to reduce the
planet's human population, but not by killing anybody, nor by
letting them die before their time.
I was just reading that the CDC in the United States has determined
that the Delta variant is significantly more contagious than even the
common cold, and is instead comparable to chickenpox.
I am now even more concerned about it than I had previously
been. There have been quite a few cases in Calgary.
...and just as you don't personally worry about chickenpox since you're
vaccinated, the COVID vaccines provide a high degree of protection
against the Delta Strain.
Not high enough that you don't need to take care.
You still /can/ be infected, but less likely, and you're
less likely to get badly sick. But you can infect other
people just as well as if you were. You even may find
a new variant that kills vaccinated people, though
probably the virus is happy enough without doing that.
But who knows what the virus will do next? If it
starts killing swathes of kids, then the joke is on us!
The transmissibility of Delta in a vaccinated population is contraversial - see e.g. https://statmodeling.stat.columbia.edu/2021/07/31/infections-in-vaccinated-americans-are-rare-compared-with-those-in-unvaccinated-people-but-when-they-occur-vaccinated-people-may-spread-the-virus-just-as-easily/ IMHO it is plausible that people who get equally sick release equal quantities of virus, vaccinated or not, but OTOH people who are vaccinated tend not to get as sick with Delta, if they get sick at all. So it is entirely possible that Delta transmits much less readily in a vaccinated population. This would be consistent with experience with almost every other virus for which vaccination is successful, and indeed reduction in transmission is very often one of the major goals of vaccination.
For doom-watchers, there have been some UK govenment papers speculating on the arrival of much more lethal variants, but as far as I know these are simply speculation and contigency planning.
Generally speaking a virus mutates to maximize spread, not maximize
death. A host who is moderately ill and mobile for a long time is to
the benefit of the virus, one who is incapacitated and dies quickly is
not.
Quadibloc
2021-08-01 17:57:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by J. Clarke
Generally speaking a virus mutates to maximize spread, not maximize
death. A host who is moderately ill and mobile for a long time is to
the benefit of the virus, one who is incapacitated and dies quickly is
not.
This is true. So, eventually, we may expect that the novel coronavirus
will mutate into something that is highly contagious, but which doesn't
cause worse symptoms than influenza or even the common cold.

But that will be a long wait, and so we must make do with what we have
in the meantime. And, certainly, a random mutation could make it
deadlier, even if such a variant will eventually be selected out.

John Savard
Ninapenda Jibini
2021-08-01 22:17:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by Quadibloc
Post by J. Clarke
Generally speaking a virus mutates to maximize spread, not
maximize death. A host who is moderately ill and mobile for a
long time is to the benefit of the virus, one who is
incapacitated and dies quickly is not.
This is true. So, eventually, we may expect that the novel
coronavirus will mutate into something that is highly
contagious, but which doesn't cause worse symptoms than
influenza or even the common cold.
Which is to say, mutate into something very much like all the other
varieties of coronavirus that cause the common cold.

Go figure.
Post by Quadibloc
But that will be a long wait,
It's already happening, if the actual numbers from the CDC are even
remotely accurate. New daily cases are up nearly 700% in the last
two months, but daily deaths are up less than 50%.
Post by Quadibloc
and so we must make do with what
we have in the meantime. And, certainly, a random mutation could
make it deadlier, even if such a variant will eventually be
selected out.
But isn't statistically likely.

In the meantime, the economy is in the shitter, the supply chain is
in a state of collapse, and infalation is going to get a lot worse
before it gets better.
--
Terry Austin

Proof that Alan Baker is a liar and a fool, and even stupider than
Lynn:
https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/stats/sw-border-migration


"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.
Ninapenda Jibini
2021-08-01 22:14:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by J. Clarke
On Sun, 1 Aug 2021 03:57:24 -0700 (PDT), Andrew McDowell
On Sunday, August 1, 2021 at 9:18:31 AM UTC+1, Robert Carnegie
Post by Robert Carnegie
On Saturday, July 31, 2021 at 2:35:25 AM UTC-4, Quadibloc
On Friday, July 30, 2021 at 9:45:04 PM UTC-6, Dorothy J
Post by Quadibloc
However, there are some people into "deep ecology" who
wouldn't mind some natural disaster thinning out the
human race so that the rest of the Earth's ecosphere
could get on with healing.
COVID may do that for them. That thought keeps coming
into my head, and I try to make it go away. We do need
to reduce the planet's human population, but not by
killing anybody, nor by letting them die before their
time.
I was just reading that the CDC in the United States has
determined that the Delta variant is significantly more
contagious than even the common cold, and is instead
comparable to chickenpox.
I am now even more concerned about it than I had
previously been. There have been quite a few cases in
Calgary.
...and just as you don't personally worry about chickenpox
since you're vaccinated, the COVID vaccines provide a high
degree of protection against the Delta Strain.
Not high enough that you don't need to take care.
You still /can/ be infected, but less likely, and you're
less likely to get badly sick. But you can infect other
people just as well as if you were. You even may find
a new variant that kills vaccinated people, though
probably the virus is happy enough without doing that.
But who knows what the virus will do next? If it
starts killing swathes of kids, then the joke is on us!
The transmissibility of Delta in a vaccinated population is
contraversial - see e.g.
https://statmodeling.stat.columbia.edu/2021/07/31/infections-in-v
accinated-americans-are-rare-compared-with-those-in-unvaccinated-
people-but-when-they-occur-vaccinated-people-may-spread-the-virus
-just-as-easily/ IMHO it is plausible that people who get
equally sick release equal quantities of virus, vaccinated or
not, but OTOH people who are vaccinated tend not to get as sick
with Delta, if they get sick at all. So it is entirely possible
that Delta transmits much less readily in a vaccinated
population. This would be consistent with experience with almost
every other virus for which vaccination is successful, and
indeed reduction in transmission is very often one of the major
goals of vaccination.
For doom-watchers, there have been some UK govenment papers
speculating on the arrival of much more lethal variants, but as
far as I know these are simply speculation and contigency
planning.
Generally speaking a virus mutates to maximize spread, not
maximize death. A host who is moderately ill and mobile for a
long time is to the benefit of the virus, one who is
incapacitated and dies quickly is not.
In general, for a disease to deserve the label of "pandemic," it
has to be unusually deadly *and* unusually contagious. Hence, we
have the common cold, which is the gold standard of contagious, but
not deadly at all, and Ebola, which is extremely dangerous, but not
particularly contagious. Neither constitute a public emergency.

Because a pandemic virus is extraordinary in two ways to begin
with, statisically speaking, any mutations are likely to make it
milder in at least one of those traits. Which is what we're seeing
with the Delta variant - it's mutating to be more like the common
cold varities of the coronaviruses.

This shouldn't surprise anyone who has been paying attention to the
science, instead of the propaganda.
--
Terry Austin

Proof that Alan Baker is a liar and a fool, and even stupider than
Lynn:
https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/stats/sw-border-migration


"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.
pete...@gmail.com
2021-08-01 15:13:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by ***@gmail.com
Post by Quadibloc
Post by Quadibloc
However, there are some people into "deep ecology" who wouldn't
mind some natural disaster thinning out the human race so that the
rest of the Earth's ecosphere could get on with healing.
COVID may do that for them. That thought keeps coming into my
head, and I try to make it go away. We do need to reduce the
planet's human population, but not by killing anybody, nor by
letting them die before their time.
I was just reading that the CDC in the United States has determined
that the Delta variant is significantly more contagious than even the
common cold, and is instead comparable to chickenpox.
I am now even more concerned about it than I had previously
been. There have been quite a few cases in Calgary.
...and just as you don't personally worry about chickenpox since you're
vaccinated, the COVID vaccines provide a high degree of protection
against the Delta Strain.
Not high enough that you don't need to take care.
You still /can/ be infected, but less likely, and you're
less likely to get badly sick. But you can infect other
people just as well as if you were. You even may find
a new variant that kills vaccinated people, though
probably the virus is happy enough without doing that.
But who knows what the virus will do next? If it
starts killing swathes of kids, then the joke is on us!
There was an interesting thread on Reddit yesterday. It was started by one of the
Provincetown breakthrough cases. He had visited Provincetown over the July 4 week
for "Bear Week". If you're not aware, Provincetown is a famous East Coast gay resort
town (and very nice for straights too).

By late June, early July Massachusetts had largely beaten the Covid virus, or so we
thought. Massachusetts has the second highest vaccination rate in the nation, and the
caseload is very low. The author of the Reddit thread describes a feeling of "this is
over, we can party again" with hundreds of men dancing in hot sweaty clubs and
getting very up close and personal with each other, every night for a week. He suggests
that this was the source of the Provincetown cluster. This is corroborated by the
CDC reporting that 85% of those infected were male.

Provincetown is the best vaccinated town in the state, with a rate in the high 90s.
As a result, there were very few unvaccinated people to catch the virus. That a
quarter of those who caught it were unvaccinated testifies to the efficacy of the
vaccine. Without it there would probably hav been would several thousand cases,
not several hundred.

Pt
Ninapenda Jibini
2021-08-01 22:10:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robert Carnegie
On Saturday, July 31, 2021 at 2:35:25 AM UTC-4, Quadibloc
Post by Quadibloc
Post by Quadibloc
However, there are some people into "deep ecology" who
wouldn't mind some natural disaster thinning out the human
race so that the rest of the Earth's ecosphere could get
on with healing.
COVID may do that for them. That thought keeps coming into
my head, and I try to make it go away. We do need to reduce
the planet's human population, but not by killing anybody,
nor by letting them die before their time.
I was just reading that the CDC in the United States has
determined that the Delta variant is significantly more
contagious than even the common cold, and is instead
comparable to chickenpox.
I am now even more concerned about it than I had previously
been. There have been quite a few cases in Calgary.
...and just as you don't personally worry about chickenpox
since you're vaccinated, the COVID vaccines provide a high
degree of protection against the Delta Strain.
Not high enough that you don't need to take care.
You still /can/ be infected, but less likely, and you're
less likely to get badly sick. But you can infect other
people just as well as if you were. You even may find
a new variant that kills vaccinated people, though
probably the virus is happy enough without doing that.
The "news" media keeps claiming the Delta variant is more deadly,
but while new daily cases have gone up nearly 700% in the last two
months, daily deaths have only increase about 50%.

Literally *nothing* you know about the current "surge" of the Delta
variant is factual. One might speculate that the same is true of
everything else you know about the pandemic. That, perhaps, the
"news" media has, and has *always* had, a different agenda than
public safety.
Post by Robert Carnegie
But who knows what the virus will do next? If it
starts killing swathes of kids, then the joke is on us!
Clearly, the situation is hopeless, and you should kill yourself
now to avoid the Christmas rush.
--
Terry Austin

Proof that Alan Baker is a liar and a fool, and even stupider than
Lynn:
https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/stats/sw-border-migration


"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.
Paul S Person
2021-07-31 16:17:16 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 30 Jul 2021 15:17:47 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc
Post by Quadibloc
Post by Alan Baker
Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
For some of the extreme left, that would be a desirable result.
Get the mental help you so very much need, dude.
It certainly is true that if by "extreme left" you mean people like
Alexandria Occasio-Cortez, she certainly doesn't want people to
fail to wake up because of ammonia in refrigerators.
However, there are some people into "deep ecology" who wouldn't
mind some natural disaster thinning out the human race so that the
rest of the Earth's ecosphere could get on with healing. So, while
he has other behaviors which might lead to your conclusion, this
statement is not delusional.
Well, if you interpret "some" to mean "one or two, maybe", you might
have a point.

There are, as I have said, nutters on /all/ sides.

They are best ignored -- unless, of course, they incite an
insurrection to try and steal an election they have lost. Then they
must be dealt with.
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."
Ninapenda Jibini
2021-07-31 17:01:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by J. Clarke
On Fri, 30 Jul 2021 15:17:47 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc
Post by Quadibloc
On 2021-07-30 12:01 p.m., Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
For some of the extreme left, that would be a desirable
result.
Get the mental help you so very much need, dude.
It certainly is true that if by "extreme left" you mean people
like Alexandria Occasio-Cortez, she certainly doesn't want
people to fail to wake up because of ammonia in refrigerators.
However, there are some people into "deep ecology" who wouldn't
mind some natural disaster thinning out the human race so that
the rest of the Earth's ecosphere could get on with healing. So,
while he has other behaviors which might lead to your
conclusion, this statement is not delusional.
Well, if you interpret "some" to mean "one or two, maybe", you
might have a point.
VHE is more than one or two, of course, even one or two is, in
fact, some.
Post by J. Clarke
There are, as I have said, nutters on /all/ sides.
Which is what I said. It takes a special kind of "what the fuck is
wrong with you" to argue with things you agree with.
Post by J. Clarke
They are best ignored -- unless, of course, they incite an
insurrection to try and steal an election they have lost. Then
they must be dealt with.
Indeed, BLM and Antifa should be rounded up and the survivors
prosecuted.
--
Terry Austin

Proof that Alan Baker is a liar and a fool, and even stupider than
Lynn:
https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/stats/sw-border-migration


"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.
Paul S Person
2021-07-31 17:14:12 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 31 Jul 2021 17:01:48 GMT, Ninapenda Jibini
Post by Ninapenda Jibini
Post by J. Clarke
On Fri, 30 Jul 2021 15:17:47 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc
Post by Quadibloc
On 2021-07-30 12:01 p.m., Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
For some of the extreme left, that would be a desirable
result.
Get the mental help you so very much need, dude.
It certainly is true that if by "extreme left" you mean people
like Alexandria Occasio-Cortez, she certainly doesn't want
people to fail to wake up because of ammonia in refrigerators.
However, there are some people into "deep ecology" who wouldn't
mind some natural disaster thinning out the human race so that
the rest of the Earth's ecosphere could get on with healing. So,
while he has other behaviors which might lead to your
conclusion, this statement is not delusional.
Well, if you interpret "some" to mean "one or two, maybe", you
might have a point.
VHE is more than one or two, of course, even one or two is, in
fact, some.
So, then we agree.
Post by Ninapenda Jibini
Post by J. Clarke
There are, as I have said, nutters on /all/ sides.
Which is what I said. It takes a special kind of "what the fuck is
wrong with you" to argue with things you agree with.
Who said I was arguing?

Is arguing the /only/ form of response you can recognize?

Poor baby!
Post by Ninapenda Jibini
Post by J. Clarke
They are best ignored -- unless, of course, they incite an
insurrection to try and steal an election they have lost. Then
they must be dealt with.
Indeed, BLM and Antifa should be rounded up and the survivors
prosecuted.
That would be true had they attempted an insurrection to interrupt a
constitutionally-mandated congressional function and so steal the
election for Trump -- but that isn't what they did.

BLM did lawful assemblies. All violence was incited, directly or
indirectly, by the police, either before or during. Hence the push to
"defund" them -- that is, to get them focused on police work and keep
them away from other duties where they are far more dangerous than is
appropriate.

"Antifa", being, in point of fact, Anarchists desperate to rename
themselves, committed criminal acts, for which they should be
punished.

Meanwhile, a Congresscritter was, no doubt, amazed to learn from the
Justice Dept that "Inciting insurrection is /not/ an official duty of
a Federal employee".

Well, of course it isn't. Federal employees (including Trump while
President) are /sworn/ to protect and defend the Constitution, not to
try to tear it down.
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."
Ninapenda Jibini
2021-07-31 18:17:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paul S Person
On Sat, 31 Jul 2021 17:01:48 GMT, Ninapenda Jibini
Post by Ninapenda Jibini
Post by J. Clarke
On Fri, 30 Jul 2021 15:17:47 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc
On Friday, July 30, 2021 at 1:49:01 PM UTC-6, Alan Baker
Post by Alan Baker
Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
For some of the extreme left, that would be a desirable
result.
Get the mental help you so very much need, dude.
It certainly is true that if by "extreme left" you mean people
like Alexandria Occasio-Cortez, she certainly doesn't want
people to fail to wake up because of ammonia in refrigerators.
However, there are some people into "deep ecology" who
wouldn't mind some natural disaster thinning out the human
race so that the rest of the Earth's ecosphere could get on
with healing. So, while he has other behaviors which might
lead to your conclusion, this statement is not delusional.
Well, if you interpret "some" to mean "one or two, maybe", you
might have a point.
VHE is more than one or two, of course, even one or two is, in
fact, some.
So, then we agree.
And yet, you argue.
Post by Paul S Person
Post by Ninapenda Jibini
Post by J. Clarke
There are, as I have said, nutters on /all/ sides.
Which is what I said. It takes a special kind of "what the fuck
is wrong with you" to argue with things you agree with.
Who said I was arguing?
I did. And you are.
Post by Paul S Person
Is arguing the /only/ form of response you can recognize?
Is arguing the /only/ form of response you're capable of?
Post by Paul S Person
Poor baby!
I know you are, but hwat am I?
Post by Paul S Person
Post by Ninapenda Jibini
Post by J. Clarke
They are best ignored -- unless, of course, they incite an
insurrection to try and steal an election they have lost. Then
they must be dealt with.
Indeed, BLM and Antifa should be rounded up and the survivors
prosecuted.
That would be true had they attempted an insurrection to
interrupt a constitutionally-mandated congressional function and
so steal the election for Trump -- but that isn't what they did.
As opposed to the insurrection of violently trying to overthrow the
government in response to an election they didn't like the outcome
of?
Post by Paul S Person
BLM did lawful assemblies.
If you believe this:

https://tinyurl.com/3ufecs5n

is "lawful assembly" then you are, literally, mentally ill and a
danger to yourself and others.
Post by Paul S Person
All violence was incited, directly or
indirectly, by the police, either before or during.
Mental illness it is. In all seriousness, you need pyschiatric
help, preferably while institutionalized as a matter of public
safety.

Really.
--
Terry Austin

Proof that Alan Baker is a liar and a fool, and even stupider than
Lynn:
https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/stats/sw-border-migration


"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.
Paul S Person
2021-08-01 16:13:13 UTC
Permalink
[snip]
Post by Ninapenda Jibini
Indeed, BLM and Antifa should be rounded up and the survivors
prosecuted.
--
Whether one stormed the Capitol or attacked buildings a BLM
protest-turned-riot/looting session, the people who did those
things should be called to account. I'm sick of the whataboutism.
This goes double for anybody who harmed another person.
That I agree with. Criminals should be caught, tried, convicted, and
punished.

But peaceful demonstrators are not criminals, no matter how hard the
police try to make them appear to be such.

I note that, a while back, Portland offered a reward for information
leading to the identification of the Anarchist ("Antifa") and anti-BLM
(alt-right) bully boys who engaged in violent activity, clearly
distinguishing between them and the demonstrators.

But then, Portland, like Seattle, has been dealing with Anarchists
using peaceful demonstrations for their anti-property violence for
decades.
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."
Ninapenda Jibini
2021-08-01 21:31:45 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 31 Jul 2021 11:35:17 -0700 (PDT), Kevrob
[snip]
Post by Ninapenda Jibini
Indeed, BLM and Antifa should be rounded up and the survivors
prosecuted.
--
Whether one stormed the Capitol or attacked buildings a BLM
protest-turned-riot/looting session, the people who did those
things should be called to account. I'm sick of the
whataboutism.
This goes double for anybody who harmed another person.
That I agree with. Criminals should be caught, tried, convicted,
and punished.
But peaceful demonstrators are not criminals, no matter how hard
the police try to make them appear to be such.
There's your mental illness, gain, literally hallucinating that
burnign buildings and *doubling* the murder rate are peaceful
demonstrations.

Get help. Seriously. Before you hurt someone.
--
Terry Austin

Proof that Alan Baker is a liar and a fool, and even stupider than
Lynn:
https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/stats/sw-border-migration


"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.
Ninapenda Jibini
2021-08-01 21:30:30 UTC
Permalink
On Saturday, July 31, 2021 at 1:01:54 PM UTC-4, Ninapenda Jibini
[snip]
Post by Ninapenda Jibini
Indeed, BLM and Antifa should be rounded up and the survivors
prosecuted.
--
Whether one stormed the Capitol or attacked buildings a BLM
protest-turned-riot/looting session,
There were no protests. They were planned as a violent insurrection
from the word go.
--
Terry Austin

Proof that Alan Baker is a liar and a fool, and even stupider than
Lynn:
https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/stats/sw-border-migration


"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.
pete...@gmail.com
2021-07-30 22:20:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
On Thursday, July 29, 2021 at 10:40:27 PM UTC-4, Quadibloc
On Wednesday, July 28, 2021 at 10:17:24 AM UTC-6, Jibini Kula
But hypocrisy is a core value of the left! You're not being a
good little sheeple today.
Just a few days after you posted this, my new chest freezer
arrived.
And so I finally found a reason to agree with you.
Although I think that global warming is a bad idea, and I
recognize the need to avoid damaging the ozone layer, while
changing from chlorinated flurocarbons to fluorocarbons to
reduce the danger to the ozone layer was acceptable...
changing from fluorocarbons, because they're greenhouse gases,
to cyclopentane as a refrigerant, with an attendant risk of
fire and explosion, is going further in respect of the
environment than I would prefer.
So whether one calls it "hypocrisy" or "setting sensible
priorities", I can't endorse liberal ideological purity.
At least we haven't gone back to ammonia as a refrigerant. How
families used to wake up dead.
For some of the extreme left, that would be a desirable result.
Really? Got a cite? (Of course you don't. You never do.)

Extreme population reduction is a conspiracy theory usually placed
with the far right "New World Order".

Pt
Quadibloc
2021-07-30 22:27:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by ***@gmail.com
Extreme population reduction is a conspiracy theory usually placed
with the far right "New World Order".
But there are also extreme eco-fanatics who wouldn't mind a massive
human die-off; while their chief concern is not the victory of the proletariat
over the bourgeosie, they're still usually classed as being on the left,
however inaccurate that might be.

John Savard
pete...@gmail.com
2021-07-30 22:42:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Quadibloc
Post by ***@gmail.com
Extreme population reduction is a conspiracy theory usually placed
with the far right "New World Order".
But there are also extreme eco-fanatics who wouldn't mind a massive
human die-off; while their chief concern is not the victory of the proletariat
over the bourgeosie, they're still usually classed as being on the left,
however inaccurate that might be.
The eco fanatics exist (see the Voluntary Human Extinction movement), but
recently, they are being eclipsed by the idiots who claim that everyone getting
the COVID vaccines will all drop dead in 3 months/6 months/1 year/2 years
(the goalposts keep moving). If not that, they claim it will sterilize women.

Pt
J. Clarke
2021-07-30 23:07:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by ***@gmail.com
Post by Quadibloc
Post by ***@gmail.com
Extreme population reduction is a conspiracy theory usually placed
with the far right "New World Order".
But there are also extreme eco-fanatics who wouldn't mind a massive
human die-off; while their chief concern is not the victory of the proletariat
over the bourgeosie, they're still usually classed as being on the left,
however inaccurate that might be.
The eco fanatics exist (see the Voluntary Human Extinction movement), but
recently, they are being eclipsed by the idiots who claim that everyone getting
the COVID vaccines will all drop dead in 3 months/6 months/1 year/2 years
(the goalposts keep moving). If not that, they claim it will sterilize women.
Then there are the ones who think that being in the same room with
someone who _might_ have COVID is a death sentence, so it evens out.
Post by ***@gmail.com
Pt
Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
2021-07-30 23:27:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by ***@gmail.com
Post by Quadibloc
Post by ***@gmail.com
Extreme population reduction is a conspiracy theory usually
placed with the far right "New World Order".
But there are also extreme eco-fanatics who wouldn't mind a
massive human die-off; while their chief concern is not the
victory of the proletariat over the bourgeosie, they're still
usually classed as being on the left, however inaccurate that
might be.
The eco fanatics exist (see the Voluntary Human Extinction
movement), but recently, they are being eclipsed by the idiots
who claim that everyone getting the COVID vaccines will all drop
dead in 3 months/6 months/1 year/2 years (the goalposts keep
moving). If not that, they claim it will sterilize women.
And that's the *lefty* nutjobs. The ones on the right believe in 5G
staellite tracking chips small enough to fit into a hypodermic
needls.
--
Terry Austin

Proof that Alan Baker is a liar and a fool, and even stupider than
Lynn:
https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/stats/sw-border-migration
(May 2019 total for people arrested for entering the United States
illegally is over 132,000 for just the southwest border.)

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB
Dorothy J Heydt
2021-07-31 03:29:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
Post by ***@gmail.com
Post by Quadibloc
Post by ***@gmail.com
Extreme population reduction is a conspiracy theory usually
placed with the far right "New World Order".
But there are also extreme eco-fanatics who wouldn't mind a
massive human die-off; while their chief concern is not the
victory of the proletariat over the bourgeosie, they're still
usually classed as being on the left, however inaccurate that
might be.
The eco fanatics exist (see the Voluntary Human Extinction
movement), but recently, they are being eclipsed by the idiots
who claim that everyone getting the COVID vaccines will all drop
dead in 3 months/6 months/1 year/2 years (the goalposts keep
moving). If not that, they claim it will sterilize women.
And that's the *lefty* nutjobs. The ones on the right believe in 5G
staellite tracking chips small enough to fit into a hypodermic
needls.
Were I to meet one of those, I would say, "Do you carry a
cellphone? You're trackable right now."

The relevant question, however, is whether there's any reason
anyone would want to track them. Unless they've been trashing
the Capitol or something.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/
Quadibloc
2021-07-31 06:37:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
The relevant question, however, is whether there's any reason
anyone would want to track them. Unless they've been trashing
the Capitol or something.
They may have missed that engagement; but as many of them do
believe that it's Joe Biden who is going to turn America into a
dictatorship, there are a *lot* of ticking time bombs in that segment
of the political spectrum.

And somebody is going to give them marching orders soon enough,
I fear.

John Savard
Paul S Person
2021-07-31 16:32:34 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 30 Jul 2021 23:37:47 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc
Post by Quadibloc
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
The relevant question, however, is whether there's any reason
anyone would want to track them. Unless they've been trashing
the Capitol or something.
They may have missed that engagement; but as many of them do
believe that it's Joe Biden who is going to turn America into a
dictatorship, there are a *lot* of ticking time bombs in that segment
of the political spectrum.
And somebody is going to give them marching orders soon enough,
I fear.
Actually, the /main/ danger here is that Biden might be forced to do
something ... forceful ... to oppose them.

It may, in other words, be possible for them to make their fears come
true. Or at least more true that might be wished by everybody else.
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."
Quadibloc
2021-07-31 19:38:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paul S Person
On Fri, 30 Jul 2021 23:37:47 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc
Post by Quadibloc
They may have missed that engagement; but as many of them do
believe that it's Joe Biden who is going to turn America into a
dictatorship, there are a *lot* of ticking time bombs in that segment
of the political spectrum.
And somebody is going to give them marching orders soon enough,
I fear.
Actually, the /main/ danger here is that Biden might be forced to do
something ... forceful ... to oppose them.
It may, in other words, be possible for them to make their fears come
true. Or at least more true that might be wished by everybody else.
I know that a number of commentators noted that however much
Trump may deserve Federal criminal prosecution, were that to happen,
it would set a "precedent" for a future Republican administration to
put Biden on trial for imaginary charges.

Except through such a scenario, I cannot see the actions of a
rational man acting to defend U.S. democracy as a greater threat
than the actions of violent lunatics egged on by men acting to
destroy U.S. democracy.

John Savard
J. Clarke
2021-08-01 03:02:05 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 31 Jul 2021 12:38:17 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc
Post by Quadibloc
Post by Paul S Person
On Fri, 30 Jul 2021 23:37:47 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc
Post by Quadibloc
They may have missed that engagement; but as many of them do
believe that it's Joe Biden who is going to turn America into a
dictatorship, there are a *lot* of ticking time bombs in that segment
of the political spectrum.
And somebody is going to give them marching orders soon enough,
I fear.
Actually, the /main/ danger here is that Biden might be forced to do
something ... forceful ... to oppose them.
It may, in other words, be possible for them to make their fears come
true. Or at least more true that might be wished by everybody else.
I know that a number of commentators noted that however much
Trump may deserve Federal criminal prosecution, were that to happen,
it would set a "precedent" for a future Republican administration to
put Biden on trial for imaginary charges.
Except through such a scenario, I cannot see the actions of a
rational man acting to defend U.S. democracy as a greater threat
than the actions of violent lunatics egged on by men acting to
destroy U.S. democracy.
I see the actions of an irrational Congress out to get its enemies as
a bigger threat than either.
Ninapenda Jibini
2021-07-31 16:59:55 UTC
Permalink
On Friday, July 30, 2021 at 9:45:04 PM UTC-6, Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
The relevant question, however, is whether there's any reason
anyone would want to track them. Unless they've been trashing
the Capitol or something.
They may have missed that engagement; but as many of them do
believe that it's Joe Biden who is going to turn America into a
dictatorship, there are a *lot* of ticking time bombs in that
segment of the political spectrum.
In much the same way that Donald Trump was going to turn the US into
a dictatorship. Same insanity, wearing a different color socks.
And somebody is going to give them marching orders soon enough,
I fear.
You would, having been told to by your masters.

On the other hand, when the left are clearly staging an outright
coup, it's hardly surprsing when the people they want to round up and
put in camps (who have 200 million guns) object.
--
Terry Austin

Proof that Alan Baker is a liar and a fool, and even stupider than
Lynn:
https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/stats/sw-border-migration


"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.
Alan Baker
2021-07-31 21:10:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ninapenda Jibini
On Friday, July 30, 2021 at 9:45:04 PM UTC-6, Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
The relevant question, however, is whether there's any reason
anyone would want to track them. Unless they've been trashing
the Capitol or something.
They may have missed that engagement; but as many of them do
believe that it's Joe Biden who is going to turn America into a
dictatorship, there are a *lot* of ticking time bombs in that
segment of the political spectrum.
In much the same way that Donald Trump was going to turn the US into
a dictatorship. Same insanity, wearing a different color socks.
He was literally trying to overturn the legitimate results of the election.
Ninapenda Jibini
2021-08-01 21:33:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alan Baker
Post by Ninapenda Jibini
Post by Quadibloc
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
The relevant question, however, is whether there's any reason
anyone would want to track them. Unless they've been trashing
the Capitol or something.
They may have missed that engagement; but as many of them do
believe that it's Joe Biden who is going to turn America into
a dictatorship, there are a *lot* of ticking time bombs in
that segment of the political spectrum.
In much the same way that Donald Trump was going to turn the US
into a dictatorship. Same insanity, wearing a different color
socks.
He was literally trying to overturn the legitimate results of
the election.
As were the Antifa insurgents in Portland and many other cities.
Literally using organized, widespread violence to overturn the the
legitimate results of the 2016 election. The biggest difference
(other than Trump did not, in fact, do that) was the the Antifa
insurgents did orders of magnitude more damange and doubled the
murder rate in Portland (and other places).
--
Terry Austin

Proof that Alan Baker is a liar and a fool, and even stupider than
Lynn:
https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/stats/sw-border-migration


"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.
J. Clarke
2021-08-01 03:01:13 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 30 Jul 2021 23:37:47 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc
Post by Quadibloc
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
The relevant question, however, is whether there's any reason
anyone would want to track them. Unless they've been trashing
the Capitol or something.
They may have missed that engagement; but as many of them do
believe that it's Joe Biden who is going to turn America into a
dictatorship, there are a *lot* of ticking time bombs in that segment
of the political spectrum.
??? A bunch of governors have already turned the US into a
dictatorship. When they can pass any law they want to and keep it in
force as long as they want to just by reciting the magic forumula
"it's an emergency" they are effectively dictators.
Post by Quadibloc
And somebody is going to give them marching orders soon enough,
I fear.
John Savard
Paul S Person
2021-08-01 16:21:38 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 31 Jul 2021 23:01:13 -0400, J. Clarke
Post by Paul S Person
On Fri, 30 Jul 2021 23:37:47 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc
Post by Quadibloc
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
The relevant question, however, is whether there's any reason
anyone would want to track them. Unless they've been trashing
the Capitol or something.
They may have missed that engagement; but as many of them do
believe that it's Joe Biden who is going to turn America into a
dictatorship, there are a *lot* of ticking time bombs in that segment
of the political spectrum.
??? A bunch of governors have already turned the US into a
dictatorship. When they can pass any law they want to and keep it in
force as long as they want to just by reciting the magic forumula
"it's an emergency" they are effectively dictators.
Ah.

Texas, for example.

-- he ordered two school districts to /not/ require students who
have/are exposed to the virus to isolate themselves
-- he ordered his fuzz to keep all them dirty, diseased, illegals from
moving around in /his/ State

He also thinks "State's Rights" means "Texas runs the country", as his
attempt to dictate how /other/ States should run their elections
showed.

And, since the last time I mentioned this I was told those other
States weren't following their own laws -- those other States are run
by Republicans. If some of their election officials weren't following
State law as passed by the State Legislature, why have we not heard
about indictments, trials, and convictions by now?

The reason is that their State law allowed them to make the adjustmens
they did. Just because Texas doesn't like doesn't make it illegal.

And Florida is not much better. It is not for nothing that Florida was
identified as the "epicenter of the current wave" recently. It took a
lot of hard work on the part of the Guv to suppress all attempts at
keeping people safe by requiring masks for store entry and similar
measures to produce this glorious result.

The South is toast. They just don't know it yet.

And I wish they would wise up and turn back to sanity, but that
doesn't seem very likely.
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."
Magewolf
2021-08-01 18:49:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paul S Person
The relevant question, however, is whether there's any reason anyone
would want to track them. Unless they've been trashing the Capitol or
something.
They may have missed that engagement; but as many of them do believe
that it's Joe Biden who is going to turn America into a dictatorship,
there are a *lot* of ticking time bombs in that segment of the
political spectrum.
??? A bunch of governors have already turned the US into a dictatorship.
When they can pass any law they want to and keep it in force as long as
they want to just by reciting the magic forumula "it's an emergency"
they are effectively dictators.
Ah.
Texas, for example.
-- he ordered two school districts to /not/ require students who
have/are exposed to the virus to isolate themselves -- he ordered his
fuzz to keep all them dirty, diseased, illegals from moving around in
/his/ State
He also thinks "State's Rights" means "Texas runs the country", as his
attempt to dictate how /other/ States should run their elections showed.
And, since the last time I mentioned this I was told those other States
weren't following their own laws -- those other States are run by
Republicans. If some of their election officials weren't following State
law as passed by the State Legislature, why have we not heard about
indictments, trials, and convictions by now?
The reason is that their State law allowed them to make the adjustmens
they did. Just because Texas doesn't like doesn't make it illegal.
And Florida is not much better. It is not for nothing that Florida was
identified as the "epicenter of the current wave" recently. It took a
lot of hard work on the part of the Guv to suppress all attempts at
keeping people safe by requiring masks for store entry and similar
measures to produce this glorious result.
The South is toast. They just don't know it yet.
And I wish they would wise up and turn back to sanity, but that doesn't
seem very likely.
There has been an immense influx of capital into the South over the whole
pandemic. If they can drag it out long enough they might actually end up
winning the war a hundred and sixty years late.
Ninapenda Jibini
2021-08-01 22:07:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paul S Person
On Sat, 31 Jul 2021 23:01:13 -0400, J. Clarke
Post by Paul S Person
On Fri, 30 Jul 2021 23:37:47 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc
On Friday, July 30, 2021 at 9:45:04 PM UTC-6, Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
The relevant question, however, is whether there's any reason
anyone would want to track them. Unless they've been trashing
the Capitol or something.
They may have missed that engagement; but as many of them do
believe that it's Joe Biden who is going to turn America into a
dictatorship, there are a *lot* of ticking time bombs in that
segment of the political spectrum.
??? A bunch of governors have already turned the US into a
dictatorship. When they can pass any law they want to and keep
it in force as long as they want to just by reciting the magic
forumula "it's an emergency" they are effectively dictators.
Ah.
Texas, for example.
-- he ordered two school districts to /not/ require students who
have/are exposed to the virus to isolate themselves
-- he ordered his fuzz to keep all them dirty, diseased,
illegals from moving around in /his/ State
He also thinks "State's Rights" means "Texas runs the country",
as his attempt to dictate how /other/ States should run their
elections showed.
And, since the last time I mentioned this I was told those other
States weren't following their own laws -- those other States
are run by Republicans. If some of their election officials
weren't following State law as passed by the State Legislature,
why have we not heard about indictments, trials, and convictions
by now?
The reason is that their State law allowed them to make the
adjustmens they did. Just because Texas doesn't like doesn't
make it illegal.
And Florida is not much better. It is not for nothing that
Florida was identified as the "epicenter of the current wave"
recently. It took a lot of hard work on the part of the Guv to
suppress all attempts at keeping people safe by requiring masks
for store entry and similar measures to produce this glorious
result.
The South is toast. They just don't know it yet.
And I wish they would wise up and turn back to sanity, but that
doesn't seem very likely.
Even Fauci couldn't answer questions about why a church was a
superspreader event but an Antifa "protest" wasn't, even though it
had far mroe people more densely packed.

There's not much science behind the lockdowns from Democratic
governors, only usurpation of constitutional power. And they're
starting to pay the price, with millions of unfilled jobs and
record high unemployement, and wages dropping.
--
Terry Austin

Proof that Alan Baker is a liar and a fool, and even stupider than
Lynn:
https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/stats/sw-border-migration


"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.
Ninapenda Jibini
2021-08-03 03:38:57 UTC
Permalink
On Sun, 01 Aug 2021 22:07:18 GMT, Ninapenda Jibini
Post by Ninapenda Jibini
Post by Paul S Person
On Sat, 31 Jul 2021 23:01:13 -0400, J. Clarke
Post by Paul S Person
On Fri, 30 Jul 2021 23:37:47 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc
Post by Quadibloc
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
The relevant question, however, is whether there's any
reason anyone would want to track them. Unless they've been
trashing the Capitol or something.
They may have missed that engagement; but as many of them do
believe that it's Joe Biden who is going to turn America into
a dictatorship, there are a *lot* of ticking time bombs in
that segment of the political spectrum.
??? A bunch of governors have already turned the US into a
dictatorship. When they can pass any law they want to and
keep it in force as long as they want to just by reciting the
magic forumula "it's an emergency" they are effectively
dictators.
Ah.
Texas, for example.
-- he ordered two school districts to /not/ require students
who have/are exposed to the virus to isolate themselves
-- he ordered his fuzz to keep all them dirty, diseased,
illegals from moving around in /his/ State
He also thinks "State's Rights" means "Texas runs the
country", as his attempt to dictate how /other/ States should
run their elections showed.
And, since the last time I mentioned this I was told those
other States weren't following their own laws -- those other
States are run by Republicans. If some of their election
officials weren't following State law as passed by the State
Legislature, why have we not heard about indictments, trials,
and convictions by now?
The reason is that their State law allowed them to make the
adjustmens they did. Just because Texas doesn't like doesn't
make it illegal.
And Florida is not much better. It is not for nothing that
Florida was identified as the "epicenter of the current wave"
recently. It took a lot of hard work on the part of the Guv to
suppress all attempts at keeping people safe by requiring
masks for store entry and similar measures to produce this
glorious result.
The South is toast. They just don't know it yet.
And I wish they would wise up and turn back to sanity, but
that doesn't seem very likely.
Even Fauci couldn't answer questions about why a church was a
superspreader event but an Antifa "protest" wasn't, even though
it had far mroe people more densely packed.
The photos /I/ saw showed a lot of masks.
He was asked that question more than once, point blank.

He flatly refused to answer.

And that's all I need to know about his credibility.

And yours.
--
Terry Austin

Proof that Alan Baker is a liar and a fool, and even stupider than
Lynn:
https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/stats/sw-border-migration


"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.
Ninapenda Jibini
2021-08-01 22:04:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paul S Person
On Fri, 30 Jul 2021 23:37:47 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc
On Friday, July 30, 2021 at 9:45:04 PM UTC-6, Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
The relevant question, however, is whether there's any reason
anyone would want to track them. Unless they've been trashing
the Capitol or something.
They may have missed that engagement; but as many of them do
believe that it's Joe Biden who is going to turn America into a
dictatorship, there are a *lot* of ticking time bombs in that
segment of the political spectrum.
??? A bunch of governors have already turned the US into a
dictatorship. When they can pass any law they want to and keep
it in force as long as they want to just by reciting the magic
forumula "it's an emergency" they are effectively dictators.
And let's not forget, when faced with a recall, at least one governor
and his puppeteers has changed the rules on recall elections to stack
the deck. (And, in the case of one state official, blatantly ignored
the law to try to excluse the most viable challenger from the
Republican party, though thankfull, she got spanked pretty hard by
the court.)
--
Terry Austin

Proof that Alan Baker is a liar and a fool, and even stupider than
Lynn:
https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/stats/sw-border-migration


"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.
Paul S Person
2021-07-31 16:31:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
Post by ***@gmail.com
Post by Quadibloc
Post by ***@gmail.com
Extreme population reduction is a conspiracy theory usually
placed with the far right "New World Order".
But there are also extreme eco-fanatics who wouldn't mind a
massive human die-off; while their chief concern is not the
victory of the proletariat over the bourgeosie, they're still
usually classed as being on the left, however inaccurate that
might be.
The eco fanatics exist (see the Voluntary Human Extinction
movement), but recently, they are being eclipsed by the idiots
who claim that everyone getting the COVID vaccines will all drop
dead in 3 months/6 months/1 year/2 years (the goalposts keep
moving). If not that, they claim it will sterilize women.
And that's the *lefty* nutjobs. The ones on the right believe in 5G
staellite tracking chips small enough to fit into a hypodermic
needls.
Were I to meet one of those, I would say, "Do you carry a
cellphone? You're trackable right now."
The relevant question, however, is whether there's any reason
anyone would want to track them. Unless they've been trashing
the Capitol or something.
Even then, with the "catch" of insurrectionist nearing (or exceeding?)
600, many of them turned in by friends, relatives, sweethearts, their
dogs or cats, etc -- who needs tracking chips?
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."
Ninapenda Jibini
2021-07-31 16:57:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
'On Friday, July 30, 2021 at 6:27:30 PM UTC-4, Quadibloc
On Friday, July 30, 2021 at 4:20:49 PM UTC-6,
Post by ***@gmail.com
Extreme population reduction is a conspiracy theory usually
placed with the far right "New World Order".
But there are also extreme eco-fanatics who wouldn't mind a
massive human die-off; while their chief concern is not the
victory of the proletariat over the bourgeosie, they're still
usually classed as being on the left, however inaccurate that
might be.
The eco fanatics exist (see the Voluntary Human Extinction
movement), but recently, they are being eclipsed by the idiots
who claim that everyone getting the COVID vaccines will all
drop dead in 3 months/6 months/1 year/2 years (the goalposts
keep moving). If not that, they claim it will sterilize women.
And that's the *lefty* nutjobs. The ones on the right believe in
5G staellite tracking chips small enough to fit into a
hypodermic needls.
Were I to meet one of those, I would say, "Do you carry a
cellphone? You're trackable right now."
The relevant question, however, is whether there's any reason
anyone would want to track them. Unless they've been trashing
the Capitol or something.
You're talking about people who do not including "rational
thought" in their skill set. There's literally nothing you could
possibly say that will alter their mindset in any way. When
confronted with simple, absolutely, undeniable proof of something
they don't want to be true, they'll hallucinate that it's something
else.

There are a number of people in this very group like this.
--
Terry Austin

Proof that Alan Baker is a liar and a fool, and even stupider than
Lynn:
https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/stats/sw-border-migration


"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.
Paul S Person
2021-07-31 16:28:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by ***@gmail.com
Post by Quadibloc
Post by ***@gmail.com
Extreme population reduction is a conspiracy theory usually placed
with the far right "New World Order".
But there are also extreme eco-fanatics who wouldn't mind a massive
human die-off; while their chief concern is not the victory of the proletariat
over the bourgeosie, they're still usually classed as being on the left,
however inaccurate that might be.
The eco fanatics exist (see the Voluntary Human Extinction movement), but
recently, they are being eclipsed by the idiots who claim that everyone getting
the COVID vaccines will all drop dead in 3 months/6 months/1 year/2 years
(the goalposts keep moving). If not that, they claim it will sterilize women.
Well, it /has/ to keep changing as time passes and nobody dies (or
gets sterilized) from the vaccine.

Like all those "prophecies" that Trump would win ... and then that he
/did/ win ... and then that he occupies the "US President's Chair in
Heaven" [1] and now that he will be restored in August ... further
updates will no doubt be coming in September.

[1] that such a chair exists sounds, at best, unlikely and, at worst,
blasphemous (to me), but what can you expect from a group that
proclaimed that their prediction of Trump's 2020 victory /must/ be
true or they would all have to have been deceived by the same lying
spirit? Out of the mouths of babes and "prophets" ...
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."
Quadibloc
2021-07-31 19:34:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paul S Person
Like all those "prophecies" that Trump would win ... and then that he
/did/ win ... and then that he occupies the "US President's Chair in
Heaven" [1] and now that he will be restored in August ... further
updates will no doubt be coming in September.
[1] that such a chair exists sounds, at best, unlikely and, at worst,
blasphemous (to me),
It depends on what they mean by that. No doubt God has an opinion
on who _should_ be President of the United States, and that phrasing
could just be a metaphor for that.

John Savard
Dorothy J Heydt
2021-08-01 00:57:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Quadibloc
Post by Paul S Person
Like all those "prophecies" that Trump would win ... and then that he
/did/ win ... and then that he occupies the "US President's Chair in
Heaven" [1] and now that he will be restored in August ... further
updates will no doubt be coming in September.
[1] that such a chair exists sounds, at best, unlikely and, at worst,
blasphemous (to me),
It depends on what they mean by that. No doubt God has an opinion
on who _should_ be President of the United States
Maybe. Maybe not. What God is likelier to care about (but
google "ineffable" is what kind of person a person's life turned
him/her into.
Post by Quadibloc
and that phrasing
could just be a metaphor for that.
I mean, it's like football players who pray in public before
playing a game. As if God cared who wins a football game ...
except as how winning or losing affect what kind of people the
players become as a result.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/
pete...@gmail.com
2021-08-01 01:38:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Quadibloc
Post by Paul S Person
Like all those "prophecies" that Trump would win ... and then that he
/did/ win ... and then that he occupies the "US President's Chair in
Heaven" [1] and now that he will be restored in August ... further
updates will no doubt be coming in September.
[1] that such a chair exists sounds, at best, unlikely and, at worst,
blasphemous (to me),
It depends on what they mean by that. No doubt God has an opinion
on who _should_ be President of the United States
Maybe. Maybe not. What God is likelier to care about (but
google "ineffable" is what kind of person a person's life turned
him/her into.
Post by Quadibloc
and that phrasing
could just be a metaphor for that.
I mean, it's like football players who pray in public before
playing a game. As if God cared who wins a football game ...
except as how winning or losing affect what kind of people the
players become as a result.
That makes me think of this (SFW):
https://pbfcomics.com/comics/spelling/

Pt
Dorothy J Heydt
2021-08-01 02:22:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by ***@gmail.com
Post by Quadibloc
Post by Paul S Person
Like all those "prophecies" that Trump would win ... and then that he
/did/ win ... and then that he occupies the "US President's Chair in
Heaven" [1] and now that he will be restored in August ... further
updates will no doubt be coming in September.
[1] that such a chair exists sounds, at best, unlikely and, at worst,
blasphemous (to me),
It depends on what they mean by that. No doubt God has an opinion
on who _should_ be President of the United States
Maybe. Maybe not. What God is likelier to care about (but
google "ineffable" is what kind of person a person's life turned
him/her into.
Post by Quadibloc
and that phrasing
could just be a metaphor for that.
I mean, it's like football players who pray in public before
playing a game. As if God cared who wins a football game ...
except as how winning or losing affect what kind of people the
players become as a result.
https://pbfcomics.com/comics/spelling/
Heh!
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/
Paul S Person
2021-08-01 16:33:02 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 31 Jul 2021 12:34:08 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc
Post by Quadibloc
Post by Paul S Person
Like all those "prophecies" that Trump would win ... and then that he
/did/ win ... and then that he occupies the "US President's Chair in
Heaven" [1] and now that he will be restored in August ... further
updates will no doubt be coming in September.
[1] that such a chair exists sounds, at best, unlikely and, at worst,
blasphemous (to me),
It depends on what they mean by that. No doubt God has an opinion
on who _should_ be President of the United States, and that phrasing
could just be a metaphor for that.
The article I got this from, in /Christianity Today/
(<https://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2021/july-august/trump-prophets-election-jeremiah-johnson-reckoning-charisma.html>
should show a "preview", but the full article is behind a paywall,
sorry about that), seemed pretty clear that it was pretty literal.

Or, perhaps better, as literal as the 24 elders on thrones in
Revelation.

I don't think these guys would accept "metaphor".
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."
Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
2021-07-30 23:26:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Quadibloc
Post by ***@gmail.com
Extreme population reduction is a conspiracy theory usually
placed with the far right "New World Order".
But there are also extreme eco-fanatics who wouldn't mind a
massive human die-off;
I am increasingly of the opinion that the powers that be in
California intend to literally make the state unliveable for anybody
but the obscenely wealthy and their indentured servants (who will
likely all be robots eventually). And they don't seem to much care
about how they get rid of all the poors.
Post by Quadibloc
while their chief concern is not the
victory of the proletariat over the bourgeosie, they're still
usually classed as being on the left, however inaccurate that
might be.
Nobody currently classified (by themselves or others) as "the left"
is even remotely close to traditional liberal poltiical ideology, any
more than "the right" are traditional conservatives.
--
Terry Austin

Proof that Alan Baker is a liar and a fool, and even stupider than
Lynn:
https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/stats/sw-border-migration
(May 2019 total for people arrested for entering the United States
illegally is over 132,000 for just the southwest border.)

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB
Joe Bernstein
2021-07-31 02:40:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
Nobody currently classified (by themselves or others) as "the left"
is even remotely close to traditional liberal poltiical ideology, any
more than "the right" are traditional conservatives.
Well, but for much of the history of "the left" (a concept which only
goes back to the French Revolution), liberalism has been clearly
distinct from it. Within my memory, so certainly those of others on
this group, liberalism (though no longer the traditional kind) was
the dominant order to which both left and right dissented.

I've never wanted to be confused with a liberal, that's for sure,
though I have often voted for liberals, and occasionally for members
of the closer-to-traditional-liberal Libertarian Party.

Joe Bernstein
--
Joe Bernstein <***@gmail.com>
Kevrob
2021-08-01 00:10:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Joe Bernstein
Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
Nobody currently classified (by themselves or others) as "the left"
is even remotely close to traditional liberal poltiical ideology, any
more than "the right" are traditional conservatives.
Well, but for much of the history of "the left" (a concept which only
goes back to the French Revolution), liberalism has been clearly
distinct from it. Within my memory, so certainly those of others on
this group, liberalism (though no longer the traditional kind) was
the dominant order to which both left and right dissented.
I've never wanted to be confused with a liberal, that's for sure,
though I have often voted for liberals, and occasionally for members
of the closer-to-traditional-liberal Libertarian Party.
First may I say, it is good to see Joe participating again, and to
hear he has somewhere to lay his head!

I usually think of liberalism fracturing or forking starting with
the European political tumults of 1848. Some went off to make
common cause with trade union socialists and Marxists. Those
with views closer to the British Whigs and their American liberal
cousins kept to existing parties or started movements to reform
their countries' political systems. They come down to us as social
democrats and classical liberals, but things aren't always that clear.

There was an Independent Labour Party in Britain as early as 1860,
the same year the US elected Lincoln. Many European countries had
Radicals, another liberalism offshoot, and in the US "Progressives" had
wings in both major parties, and elected both Republicans (Rooosevelt I)
and Democrats (Wilson.) Teddy R, Bob La Follette and Henry Wallace all
ran for the top job as "Progressives," though with differing platforms.

As always, I judge the left/right spectrum insufficient to map issue sets.
An map with an x and a y axis, or even an x,y,z cube makes more sense.
(x for economic liberties, y for other civil liberties, and z for foreign
policy - in the US, willingness to resort to military intervention has
been particularly salient.) Others might choose other metrics.
--
Kevin R
Dorothy J Heydt
2021-08-01 00:59:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kevrob
Post by Joe Bernstein
Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
Nobody currently classified (by themselves or others) as "the left"
is even remotely close to traditional liberal poltiical ideology, any
more than "the right" are traditional conservatives.
Well, but for much of the history of "the left" (a concept which only
goes back to the French Revolution), liberalism has been clearly
distinct from it. Within my memory, so certainly those of others on
this group, liberalism (though no longer the traditional kind) was
the dominant order to which both left and right dissented.
I've never wanted to be confused with a liberal, that's for sure,
though I have often voted for liberals, and occasionally for members
of the closer-to-traditional-liberal Libertarian Party.
First may I say, it is good to see Joe participating again, and to
hear he has somewhere to lay his head!
I usually think of liberalism fracturing or forking starting with
the European political tumults of 1848. Some went off to make
common cause with trade union socialists and Marxists. Those
with views closer to the British Whigs and their American liberal
cousins kept to existing parties or started movements to reform
their countries' political systems. They come down to us as social
democrats and classical liberals, but things aren't always that clear.
There was an Independent Labour Party in Britain as early as 1860,
the same year the US elected Lincoln. Many European countries had
Radicals, another liberalism offshoot, and in the US "Progressives" had
wings in both major parties, and elected both Republicans (Rooosevelt I)
and Democrats (Wilson.) Teddy R, Bob La Follette and Henry Wallace all
ran for the top job as "Progressives," though with differing platforms.
As always, I judge the left/right spectrum insufficient to map issue sets.
An map with an x and a y axis, or even an x,y,z cube makes more sense.
(x for economic liberties, y for other civil liberties, and z for foreign
policy - in the US, willingness to resort to military intervention has
been particularly salient.) Others might choose other metrics.
Hm. Someone with sufficient graphic skills might try mapping
that. But not on USENET.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/
Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
2021-07-30 23:24:07 UTC
Permalink
On Friday, July 30, 2021 at 3:01:16 PM UTC-4, Jibini Kula
Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
On Thursday, July 29, 2021 at 10:40:27 PM UTC-4, Quadibloc
On Wednesday, July 28, 2021 at 10:17:24 AM UTC-6, Jibini
But hypocrisy is a core value of the left! You're not
being a good little sheeple today.
Just a few days after you posted this, my new chest freezer arrived.
And so I finally found a reason to agree with you.
Although I think that global warming is a bad idea, and I
recognize the need to avoid damaging the ozone layer, while
changing from chlorinated flurocarbons to fluorocarbons to
reduce the danger to the ozone layer was acceptable...
changing from fluorocarbons, because they're greenhouse
gases, to cyclopentane as a refrigerant, with an attendant
risk of fire and explosion, is going further in respect of
the environment than I would prefer.
So whether one calls it "hypocrisy" or "setting sensible
priorities", I can't endorse liberal ideological purity.
At least we haven't gone back to ammonia as a refrigerant.
How families used to wake up dead.
For some of the extreme left, that would be a desirable result.
Really? Got a cite? (Of course you don't. You never do.)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voluntary_Human_Extinction_Movement
Extreme population reduction is a conspiracy theory usually
placed with the far right "New World Order".
You really are as idiot. The VHE people have been around for
decades, and they're not kidding.
--
Terry Austin

Proof that Alan Baker is a liar and a fool, and even stupider than
Lynn:
https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/stats/sw-border-migration
(May 2019 total for people arrested for entering the United States
illegally is over 132,000 for just the southwest border.)

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB
Lynn McGuire
2021-07-30 22:56:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Quadibloc
But hypocrisy is a core value of the left! You're not being a good
little sheeple today.
Just a few days after you posted this, my new chest freezer arrived.
And so I finally found a reason to agree with you.
Although I think that global warming is a bad idea, and I recognize the need
to avoid damaging the ozone layer, while changing from chlorinated flurocarbons
to fluorocarbons to reduce the danger to the ozone layer was acceptable...
changing from fluorocarbons, because they're greenhouse gases, to cyclopentane
as a refrigerant, with an attendant risk of fire and explosion, is going further in
respect of the environment than I would prefer.
So whether one calls it "hypocrisy" or "setting sensible priorities", I can't
endorse liberal ideological purity.
John Savard
Actually, we are heading towards using CO2 (carbon dioxide) as the next
major refrigerant. The only problem with using CO2 is that it does not
form a liquid until five atmospheres of pressure and it is poisonous to
humans above 15% of the atmosphere.

Lynn
J. Clarke
2021-07-30 23:09:36 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 30 Jul 2021 17:56:54 -0500, Lynn McGuire
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by Quadibloc
But hypocrisy is a core value of the left! You're not being a good
little sheeple today.
Just a few days after you posted this, my new chest freezer arrived.
And so I finally found a reason to agree with you.
Although I think that global warming is a bad idea, and I recognize the need
to avoid damaging the ozone layer, while changing from chlorinated flurocarbons
to fluorocarbons to reduce the danger to the ozone layer was acceptable...
changing from fluorocarbons, because they're greenhouse gases, to cyclopentane
as a refrigerant, with an attendant risk of fire and explosion, is going further in
respect of the environment than I would prefer.
So whether one calls it "hypocrisy" or "setting sensible priorities", I can't
endorse liberal ideological purity.
John Savard
Actually, we are heading towards using CO2 (carbon dioxide) as the next
major refrigerant. The only problem with using CO2 is that it does not
form a liquid until five atmospheres of pressure and it is poisonous to
humans above 15% of the atmosphere.
Not that much of a problem. R410a systems are normally tested at
400psi and operate well above 200 most of the time.
J. Clarke
2021-07-27 22:40:57 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 27 Jul 2021 15:02:11 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc
Post by Quadibloc
California, along with Colorado, Hawai'i, Oregon, Vermont, and Washington state, have passed new laws mandating energy efficiency or usage standards for desktop computer systems.
It will no longer be enough to be Energy Star certified.
Thus, some higher-end pre-built computer systems may not be shipped to buyers in those states, or sold in those states.
Additional regulations will come into effect in early December.
https://www.theregister.com/2021/07/26/dell_energy_pcs/
https://wccftech.com/dell-unable-to-fulfill-alienware-aurora-ryzen-edition-orders-in-6-us-states-eco-hazard/
https://www.extremetech.com/computing/325163-alienware-claims-it-cant-sell-high-end-desktop-pcs-in-6-us-states
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QcivEGigiGg
Why would this be bad news for Hal? It seems to have escaped your
notice that a Raspberry Pi is not a "high end desktop". And of course
the solution to this problem if you need significant computing power
is to buy low end servers instead.
Quadibloc
2021-07-28 01:17:16 UTC
Permalink
Why would this be bad news for Hal? It seems to have escaped your
notice that a Raspberry Pi is not a "high end desktop". And of course
the solution to this problem if you need significant computing power
is to buy low end servers instead.
What escaped my notice was that a Raspberry Pi was Hal's main or
only computer. Dorothy recently described what he did on the computer,
and it included levelling his alts, so that means he does game.

John Savard
Dorothy J Heydt
2021-07-28 03:18:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Quadibloc
Why would this be bad news for Hal? It seems to have escaped your
notice that a Raspberry Pi is not a "high end desktop". And of course
the solution to this problem if you need significant computing power
is to buy low end servers instead.
What escaped my notice was that a Raspberry Pi was Hal's main or
only computer.
Oh, far from it. He has many many Pis and a PC that's about five
years old, plenty fast enough for LotRO.
Post by Quadibloc
Dorothy recently described what he did on the computer,
and it included levelling his alts, so that means he does game.
Yes. We both play The Lord of the Rings online, which is (please
note) fourteen years old, and not in need of a super whiz-bang
idles-at-whatever-horrid-number-it-was specialized gaming rig.

(we just logged out from doing a bunch of quests on our mains,
whereof if we do forty-five of them in a week, we get a lot of
valuable goodies.

(Valuable in the game, needless to say; can't sell it for real
money.)
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/
Dorothy J Heydt
2021-07-27 23:46:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Quadibloc
California, along with Colorado, Hawai'i, Oregon, Vermont, and
Washington state, have passed new laws mandating energy efficiency or
usage standards for desktop computer systems.
It will no longer be enough to be Energy Star certified.
Thus, some higher-end pre-built computer systems may not be shipped to
buyers in those states, or sold in those states.
Additional regulations will come into effect in early December.
https://www.theregister.com/2021/07/26/dell_energy_pcs/
Hal says, "Yeah I saw that." (He reads The Register every day:
they're nice, they're clean, they're British.)

He says, "I don't think it's going to affect me. They're talking
about top-of-the-line hotshot gaming computers. I don't need one
of those." My PC is eight years old now, his about five.

And as for all those zillions of Raspberry Pis, "Their energy
usage is minimal; the state will never object to them."
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/
Quadibloc
2021-07-28 01:19:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
My PC is eight years old now, his about five.
I had been using a five-year-old PC myself until a year or two ago; about
a year after I built my current system, I finally switched over to it for
daily use (it's always a pain to change systems, one's files and applications
are on the old one) when the hard drive on the old one started filling up.

I still have the old one close to hand for occasional use.

John Savard
Dorothy J Heydt
2021-07-28 03:21:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Quadibloc
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
My PC is eight years old now, his about five.
I had been using a five-year-old PC myself until a year or two ago; about
a year after I built my current system, I finally switched over to it for
daily use (it's always a pain to change systems, one's files and applications
are on the old one) when the hard drive on the old one started filling up.
Painful. About a year ago (maybe two?) LotRO did a substantial
update, and while I was able to download it all, I wasn't able to
play it, my SSD got too full. So Hal got me a new, larger one,
and we took it down to the friendly neighborhood techie who
copied the entire contents of the old one onto the new one.
Post by Quadibloc
I still have the old one close to hand for occasional use.
Sensible.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/
Kevrob
2021-07-28 05:49:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Quadibloc
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
My PC is eight years old now, his about five.
I had been using a five-year-old PC myself until a year or two ago; about
a year after I built my current system, I finally switched over to it for
daily use (it's always a pain to change systems, one's files and applications
are on the old one) when the hard drive on the old one started filling up.
I still have the old one close to hand for occasional use.
I may need to upgrade soon, if I snag a "work at home" job.
My ISP is going to put fiber-optic cable in my town, so I am
thinking of switching from DSL. I can justify all that if "it's for
work." I recently bought a 1 TB Seagate external drive so I can
backup everything prior to getting a new (or "new to me") machine
up and running. I've already transferred 40GB of media files from
my laptop and from some cloud locations to the external drive.
I have some others on USB sticks. It's nice not to be bumping
up against drive capacity!
--
Kevin R
J. Clarke
2021-07-28 09:27:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kevrob
Post by Quadibloc
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
My PC is eight years old now, his about five.
I had been using a five-year-old PC myself until a year or two ago; about
a year after I built my current system, I finally switched over to it for
daily use (it's always a pain to change systems, one's files and applications
are on the old one) when the hard drive on the old one started filling up.
I still have the old one close to hand for occasional use.
I may need to upgrade soon, if I snag a "work at home" job.
My ISP is going to put fiber-optic cable in my town, so I am
thinking of switching from DSL. I can justify all that if "it's for
work." I recently bought a 1 TB Seagate external drive so I can
backup everything prior to getting a new (or "new to me") machine
up and running. I've already transferred 40GB of media files from
my laptop and from some cloud locations to the external drive.
I have some others on USB sticks. It's nice not to be bumping
up against drive capacity!
FWIW, I found out yesterday that my employer provides 5 terabytes of
OneDrive (I had previously thought it was one terabyte). Of course it
doesn't help if you don't have fast internet. And a "work from home"
job may include the computer--many companies want their employees to
have machines that the company controls.
Dorothy J Heydt
2021-07-28 14:19:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Quadibloc
Post by Kevrob
Post by Quadibloc
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
My PC is eight years old now, his about five.
I had been using a five-year-old PC myself until a year or two ago; about
a year after I built my current system, I finally switched over to it for
daily use (it's always a pain to change systems, one's files and
applications
Post by Kevrob
Post by Quadibloc
are on the old one) when the hard drive on the old one started filling up.
I still have the old one close to hand for occasional use.
I may need to upgrade soon, if I snag a "work at home" job.
My ISP is going to put fiber-optic cable in my town, so I am
thinking of switching from DSL. I can justify all that if "it's for
work." I recently bought a 1 TB Seagate external drive so I can
backup everything prior to getting a new (or "new to me") machine
up and running. I've already transferred 40GB of media files from
my laptop and from some cloud locations to the external drive.
I have some others on USB sticks. It's nice not to be bumping
up against drive capacity!
FWIW, I found out yesterday that my employer provides 5 terabytes of
OneDrive (I had previously thought it was one terabyte). Of course it
doesn't help if you don't have fast internet. And a "work from home"
job may include the computer--many companies want their employees to
have machines that the company controls.
My son-in-law has been working from home since, I *think*,
slightly before Governor Newsom invoked the lockdown. I remember
his going in one day saying he would be home late--and he was--
helping set up facilities for WFH for practically everybody in
the shop. Yesterday, he spent another long day on-site fixing
... something. I can ask him when he gets up and comes
downstairs--or maybe he told Hal just what he was going to do.

(N.B. I can't go upstairs and ask him; it's a flight of 17 steps
and I can't climb it any more.)
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/
Kevrob
2021-07-28 17:38:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by J. Clarke
Post by Kevrob
Post by Quadibloc
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
My PC is eight years old now, his about five.
I had been using a five-year-old PC myself until a year or two ago; about
a year after I built my current system, I finally switched over to it for
daily use (it's always a pain to change systems, one's files and applications
are on the old one) when the hard drive on the old one started filling up.
I still have the old one close to hand for occasional use.
I may need to upgrade soon, if I snag a "work at home" job.
My ISP is going to put fiber-optic cable in my town, so I am
thinking of switching from DSL. I can justify all that if "it's for
work." I recently bought a 1 TB Seagate external drive so I can
backup everything prior to getting a new (or "new to me") machine
up and running. I've already transferred 40GB of media files from
my laptop and from some cloud locations to the external drive.
I have some others on USB sticks. It's nice not to be bumping
up against drive capacity!
FWIW, I found out yesterday that my employer provides 5 terabytes of
OneDrive (I had previously thought it was one terabyte). Of course it
doesn't help if you don't have fast internet. And a "work from home"
job may include the computer--many companies want their employees to
have machines that the company controls.
We had remote CSRs at my old job who used company equipment.
When a bad winter storm was predicted we'd distribute company
laptops to employees who were willing to temporarily work from home,
also. That would have kept the department running during the pandemic,
had the location in our state not been shut down at the end of 2019.
I was never eligible to work from home, because I had permissions
on some accounts that the company wouldn't allow to be used remotely.
There had to be a supervisor onsite to execute those functions the home
reps couldn't access, which meant me, or, theoretically, my supv - if he
could even remember how to do it!

I've seen some WFH job listings where hardware requirements were
listed, and others where it was explicitly stated that equipment would
be provided. I think I'd be more comfortable working on the company's
laptop and keeping my own data on my own machine.

--
Kevin R
Scott Lurndal
2021-07-28 17:49:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kevrob
I've seen some WFH job listings where hardware requirements were
listed, and others where it was explicitly stated that equipment would
be provided. I think I'd be more comfortable working on the company's
laptop and keeping my own data on my own machine.
Any company that allowed a remote user to use their own equipement
would be foolish in the extreme. As it is, Windows is bad enough
when locked down - the consumer versions are vile pits of security
nightmares.
Kevrob
2021-07-28 18:23:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by Scott Lurndal
Post by Kevrob
I've seen some WFH job listings where hardware requirements were
listed, and others where it was explicitly stated that equipment would
be provided. I think I'd be more comfortable working on the company's
laptop and keeping my own data on my own machine.
Any company that allowed a remote user to use their own equipement
would be foolish in the extreme. As it is, Windows is bad enough
when locked down - the consumer versions are vile pits of security
nightmares.
That's one more screen that will send recruitment emails into the
bit bucket. One of the recruiting emails I recently received would
have had me dropping beaucoup bucks at the local Best Buy for
a dual screen set-up. I've used those at work, so it's not an unfamiliar
configuration. Popular with...gamers? Day traders? I don't do anything
at home so complicated that I'd need a second screen.
--
Kevin R
Dorothy J Heydt
2021-07-28 19:24:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kevrob
Post by Scott Lurndal
Post by Kevrob
I've seen some WFH job listings where hardware requirements were
listed, and others where it was explicitly stated that equipment would
be provided. I think I'd be more comfortable working on the company's
laptop and keeping my own data on my own machine.
Any company that allowed a remote user to use their own equipement
would be foolish in the extreme. As it is, Windows is bad enough
when locked down - the consumer versions are vile pits of security
nightmares.
That's one more screen that will send recruitment emails into the
bit bucket. One of the recruiting emails I recently received would
have had me dropping beaucoup bucks at the local Best Buy for
a dual screen set-up. I've used those at work, so it's not an unfamiliar
configuration. Popular with...gamers? Day traders? I don't do anything
at home so complicated that I'd need a second screen.
Going back half a topic: I haven't had a chance to ask my
son-in-law whether (a) he's going to go on working from home and
(b) whether he has a company-provided computer to WFH with. So I
asked Hal.

He answered that (a) so far as he knows, Walkyr's going to be WFH
indefinitely; he was off on the site yesterday and again today,
disassembling desks and other items, which looks to me as if he's
never going to go back to the site (which is in San Francisco)
again, which will suit him just fine; and (b), yes, he's using a
company-provided laptop.

So that's good, I guess.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/
J. Clarke
2021-07-28 21:38:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kevrob
Post by Scott Lurndal
Post by Kevrob
I've seen some WFH job listings where hardware requirements were
listed, and others where it was explicitly stated that equipment would
be provided. I think I'd be more comfortable working on the company's
laptop and keeping my own data on my own machine.
Any company that allowed a remote user to use their own equipement
would be foolish in the extreme. As it is, Windows is bad enough
when locked down - the consumer versions are vile pits of security
nightmares.
That's one more screen that will send recruitment emails into the
bit bucket. One of the recruiting emails I recently received would
have had me dropping beaucoup bucks at the local Best Buy for
a dual screen set-up. I've used those at work, so it's not an unfamiliar
configuration. Popular with...gamers? Day traders? I don't do anything
at home so complicated that I'd need a second screen.
FWIW, I can work using my own machine, but only over a VDI, which has
advantages and disadvantages.
Kevrob
2021-07-28 22:21:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by J. Clarke
Post by Kevrob
Post by Scott Lurndal
Post by Kevrob
I've seen some WFH job listings where hardware requirements were
listed, and others where it was explicitly stated that equipment would
be provided. I think I'd be more comfortable working on the company's
laptop and keeping my own data on my own machine.
Any company that allowed a remote user to use their own equipement
would be foolish in the extreme. As it is, Windows is bad enough
when locked down - the consumer versions are vile pits of security
nightmares.
That's one more screen that will send recruitment emails into the
bit bucket. One of the recruiting emails I recently received would
have had me dropping beaucoup bucks at the local Best Buy for
a dual screen set-up. I've used those at work, so it's not an unfamiliar
configuration. Popular with...gamers? Day traders? I don't do anything
at home so complicated that I'd need a second screen.
FWIW, I can work using my own machine, but only over a VDI, which has
advantages and disadvantages.
Aha! I knew that our home reps used Citrix to connect to our server,
so they explained VDI to me.

https://www.citrix.com/solutions/vdi-and-daas/what-is-vdi-virtual-desktop-infrastructure.html

Reminds me of using Telnet to access a mainframe or minicomputer
remotely, long and long ago. {70s and 80s for me, when I was a student.}
--
Kevin R
J. Clarke
2021-07-28 21:40:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kevrob
Post by Scott Lurndal
Post by Kevrob
I've seen some WFH job listings where hardware requirements were
listed, and others where it was explicitly stated that equipment would
be provided. I think I'd be more comfortable working on the company's
laptop and keeping my own data on my own machine.
Any company that allowed a remote user to use their own equipement
would be foolish in the extreme. As it is, Windows is bad enough
when locked down - the consumer versions are vile pits of security
nightmares.
That's one more screen that will send recruitment emails into the
bit bucket. One of the recruiting emails I recently received would
have had me dropping beaucoup bucks at the local Best Buy for
a dual screen set-up. I've used those at work, so it's not an unfamiliar
configuration. Popular with...gamers? Day traders? I don't do anything
at home so complicated that I'd need a second screen.
Just about anybody who has lived with one for a while. My work setup
is dual screen, my home setup is a single 49" 4K screen. Duals have
the advantage that you can put something on one screen and it will
stay there while you do stuff on the other screen. Eventually I'm
going to put another 4K on my home system.
J. Clarke
2021-07-28 09:23:04 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 27 Jul 2021 18:19:38 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc
Post by Quadibloc
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
My PC is eight years old now, his about five.
I had been using a five-year-old PC myself until a year or two ago; about
a year after I built my current system, I finally switched over to it for
daily use (it's always a pain to change systems, one's files and applications
are on the old one) when the hard drive on the old one started filling up.
I still have the old one close to hand for occasional use.
My current gaming rig is about 5 years old. I'll probably be forced
to a new one eventually--Microsoft has rigged Windows 11 so it's not
supposed to run on this one. Of course Windows 10 isn't supposed to
run on my old Thinkpad but it runs fine nonetheless.
Dorothy J Heydt
2021-07-28 14:20:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by J. Clarke
On Tue, 27 Jul 2021 18:19:38 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc
Post by Quadibloc
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
My PC is eight years old now, his about five.
I had been using a five-year-old PC myself until a year or two ago; about
a year after I built my current system, I finally switched over to it for
daily use (it's always a pain to change systems, one's files and applications
are on the old one) when the hard drive on the old one started filling up.
I still have the old one close to hand for occasional use.
My current gaming rig is about 5 years old. I'll probably be forced
to a new one eventually--Microsoft has rigged Windows 11 so it's not
supposed to run on this one. Of course Windows 10 isn't supposed to
run on my old Thinkpad but it runs fine nonetheless.
Aw, do you have a Thinkpad? I had one once and I loved it. But
its power supply died and we had to get me a PC (not the one I
have now).
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/
J. Clarke
2021-07-28 21:34:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by J. Clarke
On Tue, 27 Jul 2021 18:19:38 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc
Post by Quadibloc
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
My PC is eight years old now, his about five.
I had been using a five-year-old PC myself until a year or two ago; about
a year after I built my current system, I finally switched over to it for
daily use (it's always a pain to change systems, one's files and applications
are on the old one) when the hard drive on the old one started filling up.
I still have the old one close to hand for occasional use.
My current gaming rig is about 5 years old. I'll probably be forced
to a new one eventually--Microsoft has rigged Windows 11 so it's not
supposed to run on this one. Of course Windows 10 isn't supposed to
run on my old Thinkpad but it runs fine nonetheless.
Aw, do you have a Thinkpad? I had one once and I loved it. But
its power supply died and we had to get me a PC (not the one I
have now).
I actually have two of them, an X60 tablet and an older one, I forget
the model, with a Pentium 200.

The X60 is one of the last IBMs, with the Core 2 Duo, bought on ebay
for cheap after my Gateway died the death. Lovely machine. Made me a
strong believer in the tablet concept--while I can type words pretty
fast, drawing a diagram with the mouse sucks.
Quadibloc
2021-07-28 20:22:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by J. Clarke
Microsoft has rigged Windows 11 so it's not
supposed to run on this one.
For those who haven't been following the excitement:

Microsoft's forthcoming Windows 11 operating system has some
hardware requirements which are incompatible with many PCs
out there perfectly capable of useful service.

It requires, the same as the version of OS X for Intel-based Macs,
the newer UEFI type of motherboard. In addition, it requires TPM 2.0,
basically a new feature that allows computers to run programs like
DVD and BluRay decoders while not exposing the internals of those
programs to hackers who would like to learn how to pirate videos -
as Microsoft intends to also use this feature to protect parts of
Windows to protect the operating system from viruses like
ransomware.

John Savard
Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
2021-07-28 20:43:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Quadibloc
it
requires TPM 2.0,
Sort of, maybe. Currently, it can be bypassed.
--
Terry Austin

Proof that Alan Baker is a liar and a fool, and even stupider than
Lynn:
https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/stats/sw-border-migration
(May 2019 total for people arrested for entering the United States
illegally is over 132,000 for just the southwest border.)

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB
Torbjorn Lindgren
2021-07-30 15:23:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Quadibloc
Post by J. Clarke
Microsoft has rigged Windows 11 so it's not
supposed to run on this one.
Microsoft's forthcoming Windows 11 operating system has some
hardware requirements which are incompatible with many PCs
out there perfectly capable of useful service.
It requires, the same as the version of OS X for Intel-based Macs,
the newer UEFI type of motherboard. In addition, it requires TPM 2.0,
Note that the W11 TPM requirement accept "virtual" TPM that is
generated by the UEFI BIOS using the security "enclave" built into
*all* the cpus on the compatibility list. And we already know there's
going to be SOME exceptions to the TPM requirement, currently that's a
list of specific countries where it doesn't apply (due to goverment
mandates mostly).

It's also worth pointing out that a working TPM has been a hard
requirement for years now for OEM/SAs to be allowed to pre-install
Windows 10 (which they all do).

It's just DIY where it's not already mandated, the virtual TPM is
often disabled by default on consumer motherboards but since SA's also
use those motherboards it's available.

So if you do have a "supported" CPU in most cases it's just a question
of finding and enabling it in the BIOS. There are exceptions among the
older motherboards with supported CPUs but even those often have this.

And... while MS say it's a hard requirement and (somewhat!) enforce it
during testing they could easily change their mind.

Quite possibly more than once, I consider these kind of initial
announcements more of "trial balloons".


The list of supported CPUs will hit much more people since currently
you need a 8th generation Intel or Zen+ or later though MS has made
noises about possibly allowing 7th gen Intel and first generation Zen.

There's a LOT of 6th generation Intel (Skylake) still out there that's
perfectly fine machines and even 10th gen intel is only a minor
variant of Skylake...

OTOH, as you go back that far TPM 2.0 does get rare, so if they don't
change their mind it could be a big issue a few years down the line
(Win 10 now has a "free support ends" date somewhere in 2025).

If they do relax the TPM requirement it might end up like Windows 10
which technically require 4th generation Intel or newer, though Intel
3rd generation is allowed for Windows 8.x upgrades, but W10 will run
fine on Core2Quad's that PREDATE the entire "generation" numbering.

Or not, if they end up using an instruction not available on the older
chips (Sandy Bridge/AVX or Haswell/AVX2 is a few obvious possible pain
points).
pyotr filipivich
2021-07-30 20:18:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Torbjorn Lindgren
Post by Quadibloc
Post by J. Clarke
Microsoft has rigged Windows 11 so it's not
supposed to run on this one.
Microsoft's forthcoming Windows 11 operating system has some
hardware requirements which are incompatible with many PCs
out there perfectly capable of useful service.
It requires, the same as the version of OS X for Intel-based Macs,
the newer UEFI type of motherboard. In addition, it requires TPM 2.0,
Note that the W11 TPM requirement accept "virtual" TPM that is
generated by the UEFI BIOS using the security "enclave" built into
*all* the cpus on the compatibility list. And we already know there's
going to be SOME exceptions to the TPM requirement, currently that's a
list of specific countries where it doesn't apply (due to goverment
mandates mostly).
It's also worth pointing out that a working TPM has been a hard
requirement for years now for OEM/SAs to be allowed to pre-install
Windows 10 (which they all do).
It's just DIY where it's not already mandated, the virtual TPM is
often disabled by default on consumer motherboards but since SA's also
use those motherboards it's available.
So if you do have a "supported" CPU in most cases it's just a question
of finding and enabling it in the BIOS. There are exceptions among the
older motherboards with supported CPUs but even those often have this.
And... while MS say it's a hard requirement and (somewhat!) enforce it
during testing they could easily change their mind.
Quite possibly more than once, I consider these kind of initial
announcements more of "trial balloons".
The list of supported CPUs will hit much more people since currently
you need a 8th generation Intel or Zen+ or later though MS has made
noises about possibly allowing 7th gen Intel and first generation Zen.
There's a LOT of 6th generation Intel (Skylake) still out there that's
perfectly fine machines and even 10th gen intel is only a minor
variant of Skylake...
OTOH, as you go back that far TPM 2.0 does get rare, so if they don't
change their mind it could be a big issue a few years down the line
(Win 10 now has a "free support ends" date somewhere in 2025).
If they do relax the TPM requirement it might end up like Windows 10
which technically require 4th generation Intel or newer, though Intel
3rd generation is allowed for Windows 8.x upgrades, but W10 will run
fine on Core2Quad's that PREDATE the entire "generation" numbering.
Or not, if they end up using an instruction not available on the older
chips (Sandy Bridge/AVX or Haswell/AVX2 is a few obvious possible pain
points).
Sounds like it might be time to buy another Win7 box to keep in
storage.
--
pyotr filipivich
This Week's Panel: Us & Them - Eliminating Them.
Next Month's Panel: Having eliminated the old Them(tm)
Selecting who insufficiently Woke(tm) as to serve as the new Them(tm)
Dorothy J Heydt
2021-07-30 21:16:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by pyotr filipivich
Post by Torbjorn Lindgren
If they do relax the TPM requirement it might end up like Windows 10
which technically require 4th generation Intel or newer, though Intel
3rd generation is allowed for Windows 8.x upgrades, but W10 will run
fine on Core2Quad's that PREDATE the entire "generation" numbering.
Or not, if they end up using an instruction not available on the older
chips (Sandy Bridge/AVX or Haswell/AVX2 is a few obvious possible pain
points).
Sounds like it might be time to buy another Win7 box to keep in
storage.
Hal's and my Win7 boxes are still running strong. They might
outlive us.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/
Quadibloc
2021-07-30 22:19:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by pyotr filipivich
Sounds like it might be time to buy another Win7 box to keep in
storage.
Perhaps put it in a thick metal box, wrapped in aluminum foil, to ensure
it serves as a Faraday cage. Throw in solar panels... you might have one
of the last few working computers on Earth if we have another Carrington
event.

John Savard
Dorothy J Heydt
2021-07-27 23:50:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Quadibloc
Post by Quadibloc
California, along with Colorado, Hawai'i, Oregon, Vermont, and
Washington state, have passed new laws mandating energy efficiency or
usage standards for desktop computer systems.
Post by Quadibloc
It will no longer be enough to be Energy Star certified.
Thus, some higher-end pre-built computer systems may not be shipped to
buyers in those states, or sold in those states.
Post by Quadibloc
Additional regulations will come into effect in early December.
That's not bad news for Hal, his Raspberry Pi systems should
comfortably fall under the new limits.
You bet.

The one thing the Pis won't do is play The Lord of the Rings
Online, having ARM processors instead X86.

And our gaming PCs are elderly, and we already have them. They
may outlast us.
Post by Quadibloc
Dell has two (count them) of their hundred systems that
they won't ship to Ca, and it's mainly because they idle
at 50+ watts, which is, frankly, ridiculous for any modern
system.
And I bet they cost an arm, a leg, and several teeth.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/
Quadibloc
2021-07-28 01:20:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
And I bet they cost an arm, a leg, and several teeth.
For _that_, I saw a Youtube video about the kind of systems another
outfit custom builds... but, yes, they're expensive.

John Savard
Dimensional Traveler
2021-07-28 00:39:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Quadibloc
California, along with Colorado, Hawai'i, Oregon, Vermont, and Washington state, have passed new laws mandating energy efficiency or usage standards for desktop computer systems.
It will no longer be enough to be Energy Star certified.
Thus, some higher-end pre-built computer systems may not be shipped to buyers in those states, or sold in those states.
Additional regulations will come into effect in early December.
That's not bad news for Hal, his Raspberry Pi systems should
comfortably fall under the new limits.
Dell has two (count them) of their hundred systems that
they won't ship to Ca, and it's mainly because they idle
at 50+ watts, which is, frankly, ridiculous for any modern
system.
I would be VERY surprised if the new regs tried to grandfather in
_existing_ computers in their states. It would unenforceable. What
they are doing is not allowing sales of NEW computers that violate the
new regs.
--
Troll, troll, troll your post gently down the thread
Angrily, angrily, angrily, the net's a nut's scream.
Quadibloc
2021-07-28 01:22:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dimensional Traveler
I would be VERY surprised if the new regs tried to grandfather in
_existing_ computers in their states. It would unenforceable. What
they are doing is not allowing sales of NEW computers that violate the
new regs.
Um, allowing people to continue using their old computers even if they
don't follow the new rules _is_ grandfathering them. It would be unenforceable
to try _not_ to grandfather them.

John Savard
Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
2021-07-28 16:20:16 UTC
Permalink
On Tuesday, July 27, 2021 at 6:39:32 PM UTC-6, Dimensional
Post by Dimensional Traveler
I would be VERY surprised if the new regs tried to grandfather
in _existing_ computers in their states. It would
unenforceable. What they are doing is not allowing sales of NEW
computers that violate the new regs.
Um, allowing people to continue using their old computers even
if they don't follow the new rules _is_ grandfathering them. It
would be unenforceable to try _not_ to grandfather them.
Any what are you smoking to conclue that would even slow down
California's legislature from trying to do so? Give it a couple of
years, and they'll be allowing no knock warrants in the middle of the
night based on your smart meter reporting your electricity usage as
suspicious.
--
Terry Austin

Proof that Alan Baker is a liar and a fool, and even stupider than
Lynn:
https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/stats/sw-border-migration
(May 2019 total for people arrested for entering the United States
illegally is over 132,000 for just the southwest border.)

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB
Quadibloc
2021-07-28 16:27:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
Any what are you smoking to conclue that would even slow down
California's legislature from trying to do so?
I can truthfully report that I have not taken advantage of the
fact that it is genuinely legal to smoke that stuff in Canada...

I like my brain waves mathematically perfect.

John Savard
Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
2021-07-28 16:57:00 UTC
Permalink
On Wednesday, July 28, 2021 at 10:20:22 AM UTC-6, Jibini Kula
Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
Any what are you smoking to conclue that would even slow down
California's legislature from trying to do so?
I can truthfully report that I have not taken advantage of the
fact that it is genuinely legal to smoke that stuff in Canada...
I like my brain waves mathematically perfect.
And yet, you come up with the stupidest, craziest shit.
--
Terry Austin

Proof that Alan Baker is a liar and a fool, and even stupider than
Lynn:
https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/stats/sw-border-migration
(May 2019 total for people arrested for entering the United States
illegally is over 132,000 for just the southwest border.)

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB
Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
2021-07-28 16:20:34 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 27 Jul 2021 18:22:14 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc
On Tuesday, July 27, 2021 at 6:39:32 PM UTC-6, Dimensional
Post by Dimensional Traveler
I would be VERY surprised if the new regs tried to grandfather
in _existing_ computers in their states. It would
unenforceable. What they are doing is not allowing sales of
NEW computers that violate the new regs.
Um, allowing people to continue using their old computers even
if they don't follow the new rules _is_ grandfathering them. It
would be unenforceable to try _not_ to grandfather them.
This is a ban on sale, not a ban on possession.
So far.
--
Terry Austin

Proof that Alan Baker is a liar and a fool, and even stupider than
Lynn:
https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/stats/sw-border-migration
(May 2019 total for people arrested for entering the United States
illegally is over 132,000 for just the southwest border.)

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB
Quadibloc
2021-07-28 01:15:39 UTC
Permalink
it's mainly because they idle
at 50+ watts, which is, frankly, ridiculous for any modern
system.
I certainly understand that the free market system cannot by
itself account for externalities, and so I have no objection in
principle to government regulation for such reasons.

I am glad to hear that the regulations in question are not onerous,
but only deal with frivolous failures to design machines in a responsible
manner for energy consumption.

John Savard
J. Clarke
2021-07-28 08:57:55 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 27 Jul 2021 18:15:39 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc
Post by Quadibloc
it's mainly because they idle
at 50+ watts, which is, frankly, ridiculous for any modern
system.
I certainly understand that the free market system cannot by
itself account for externalities, and so I have no objection in
principle to government regulation for such reasons.
I am glad to hear that the regulations in question are not onerous,
but only deal with frivolous failures to design machines in a responsible
manner for energy consumption.
They are stupidly concieved. If the energy consumed by computing
exceeds total energy production, it is not going to be gamers driving
it. It is going to be massive server farms supporting cloud
computing. And they haven't done squat about that.
Robert Carnegie
2021-07-28 11:20:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by J. Clarke
On Tue, 27 Jul 2021 18:15:39 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc
Post by Quadibloc
it's mainly because they idle
at 50+ watts, which is, frankly, ridiculous for any modern
system.
I certainly understand that the free market system cannot by
itself account for externalities, and so I have no objection in
principle to government regulation for such reasons.
I am glad to hear that the regulations in question are not onerous,
but only deal with frivolous failures to design machines in a responsible
manner for energy consumption.
They are stupidly concieved. If the energy consumed by computing
exceeds total energy production, it is not going to be gamers driving
it. It is going to be massive server farms supporting cloud
computing. And they haven't done squat about that.
I expect that a "server farm" closely watches its
electricity bill - and its air conditioning bill - and
uses very energy efficient computers.
Bill Gill
2021-07-28 13:15:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by J. Clarke
On Tue, 27 Jul 2021 18:15:39 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc
Post by Quadibloc
it's mainly because they idle
at 50+ watts, which is, frankly, ridiculous for any modern
system.
I certainly understand that the free market system cannot by
itself account for externalities, and so I have no objection in
principle to government regulation for such reasons.
I am glad to hear that the regulations in question are not onerous,
but only deal with frivolous failures to design machines in a responsible
manner for energy consumption.
They are stupidly concieved. If the energy consumed by computing
exceeds total energy production, it is not going to be gamers driving
it. It is going to be massive server farms supporting cloud
computing. And they haven't done squat about that.
I expect that a "server farm" closely watches its
electricity bill - and its air conditioning bill - and
uses very energy efficient computers.
Here in NE Oklahoma the Google server farm is big into alternative
energy.

Bill
Thomas Koenig
2021-07-28 17:34:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bill Gill
Here in NE Oklahoma the Google server farm is big into alternative
energy.
Good for them!
Do they shut down when there is neither sunlight nor wind?

Or how do they store the energy for these periods, and for
how long?
Bill Gill
2021-07-28 22:32:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by Thomas Koenig
Post by Bill Gill
Here in NE Oklahoma the Google server farm is big into alternative
energy.
Good for them!
Do they shut down when there is neither sunlight nor wind?
Or how do they store the energy for these periods, and for
how long?
I'm not sure how they work it, but I believe they are buying alternative
energy from the power company.

Bill
Thomas Koenig
2021-07-30 05:29:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Thomas Koenig
Post by Bill Gill
Here in NE Oklahoma the Google server farm is big into alternative
energy.
Good for them!
Do they shut down when there is neither sunlight nor wind?
Or how do they store the energy for these periods, and for
how long?
https://electrek.co/2021/06/30/tesla-megapacks-power-on-battery-replacing-gas-peaker-plant-california/
So, does Google a actually do that, is there a record of that?

Apart from that... "to grow to a record 3GWh in 2020".

That may be enough for some day-time demand peaks, but for a period
of a few days or weeks when there is very little sun and wind,
that's just peanuts.

Also, they didn't mention pesky points like Lithium use or battery
degradation over time...
Scott Lurndal
2021-07-30 14:04:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Thomas Koenig
Post by Thomas Koenig
Post by Bill Gill
Here in NE Oklahoma the Google server farm is big into alternative
energy.
Good for them!
Do they shut down when there is neither sunlight nor wind?
Or how do they store the energy for these periods, and for
how long?
https://electrek.co/2021/06/30/tesla-megapacks-power-on-battery-replacing-gas-peaker-plant-california/
So, does Google a actually do that, is there a record of that?
Apart from that... "to grow to a record 3GWh in 2020".
That may be enough for some day-time demand peaks, but for a period
of a few days or weeks when there is very little sun and wind,
that's just peanuts.
There are not a "few days or weeks when there is very little sun and wind"
in california. The sun always shines and the wind always blows
somewhere in the state.

Even when it's cloudy, solar panels still generate power, just
not as much.

Production
194 W 30 Jul, 2021 6:59 AM
7.88 MWh Lifetime (since Dec 17, 2020 on this array).

(That's with the marine layer, which should burn off in
an hour or so - production peaks at 5.3kw in the early
afternoon).
Post by Thomas Koenig
Also, they didn't mention pesky points like Lithium use or battery
degradation over time...
They also didn't mention the recently developed Iron-based batteries,
for which the extra weight doesn't matter for such storage applications.

See, for example, Form Energy https://formenergy.com/
Lynn McGuire
2021-07-30 23:04:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Thomas Koenig
Post by Thomas Koenig
Post by Bill Gill
Here in NE Oklahoma the Google server farm is big into alternative
energy.
Good for them!
Do they shut down when there is neither sunlight nor wind?
Or how do they store the energy for these periods, and for
how long?
https://electrek.co/2021/06/30/tesla-megapacks-power-on-battery-replacing-gas-peaker-plant-california/
So, does Google a actually do that, is there a record of that?
Apart from that... "to grow to a record 3GWh in 2020".
That may be enough for some day-time demand peaks, but for a period
of a few days or weeks when there is very little sun and wind,
that's just peanuts.
Also, they didn't mention pesky points like Lithium use or battery
degradation over time...
The Megapacks are going to move to LFP batteries over time, Tesla is
going to move to LFP batteries when weight does not count. “What Tesla’s
bet on iron-based batteries means for manufacturers”

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/tesla-bet-iron-based-batteries-143934016.html

“Elon Musk earlier this week made his most bullish statements yet on
iron-based batteries, noting that Tesla is making a “long-term shift”
toward older, cheaper lithium-iron-phosphate (LFP) cells in its energy
storage products and some entry-level EVs.
The Tesla CEO mused that the company’s batteries may eventually be
roughly two-thirds iron-based and one-third nickel-based across its
products. “And this is actually good because there’s plenty of iron in
the world,” he added.”

And the LFP batteries apparently support more than 4,000 charge cycles
and do not burn as readily as lithium batteries.

Lynn
Lynn McGuire
2021-07-30 23:00:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Thomas Koenig
Post by Bill Gill
Here in NE Oklahoma the Google server farm is big into alternative
energy.
Good for them!
Do they shut down when there is neither sunlight nor wind?
Or how do they store the energy for these periods, and for
how long?
https://electrek.co/2021/06/30/tesla-megapacks-power-on-battery-replacing-gas-peaker-plant-california/
Pt
Uh oh. "'Up In Smoke:' Tesla Megapack Battery Catches Fire In Australia "

https://www.zerohedge.com/markets/smoke-australia-tesla-megapack-battery-catches-fire

Lynn
pete...@gmail.com
2021-07-31 02:33:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by Thomas Koenig
Post by Bill Gill
Here in NE Oklahoma the Google server farm is big into alternative
energy.
Good for them!
Do they shut down when there is neither sunlight nor wind?
Or how do they store the energy for these periods, and for
how long?
https://electrek.co/2021/06/30/tesla-megapacks-power-on-battery-replacing-gas-peaker-plant-california/
Pt
Uh oh. "'Up In Smoke:' Tesla Megapack Battery Catches Fire In Australia "
https://www.zerohedge.com/markets/smoke-australia-tesla-megapack-battery-catches-fire
I realize that for you, these batteries are an existential threat, but the details are
Important.

This was a new unit, on its first test after installation. It was not yet operational.
This is exactly why they get tested; to check for damage during transportation, or
errors in setup.

Has no gas turbine peaker plant ever had teething troubles?

Pt
Lynn McGuire
2021-07-31 19:30:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by ***@gmail.com
Post by Thomas Koenig
Post by Bill Gill
Here in NE Oklahoma the Google server farm is big into alternative
energy.
Good for them!
Do they shut down when there is neither sunlight nor wind?
Or how do they store the energy for these periods, and for
how long?
https://electrek.co/2021/06/30/tesla-megapacks-power-on-battery-replacing-gas-peaker-plant-california/
Pt
Uh oh. "'Up In Smoke:' Tesla Megapack Battery Catches Fire In Australia "
https://www.zerohedge.com/markets/smoke-australia-tesla-megapack-battery-catches-fire
I realize that for you, these batteries are an existential threat, but the details are
Important.
This was a new unit, on its first test after installation. It was not yet operational.
This is exactly why they get tested; to check for damage during transportation, or
errors in setup.
Has no gas turbine peaker plant ever had teething troubles?
Pt
We installed 15 GE Frame 7EA gas turbines (65 MW each in summer, 90 MW
in winter, natural gas or diesel fired) in 1987-1988 when I was at TXU.
Not a single noteworthy problem. They are part of the 300 gas turbine
peakers in Texas still to this date.

https://www.luminant.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/MorganCreek_Facts.pdf

Lynn
Ninapenda Jibini
2021-08-01 21:59:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lynn McGuire
On Friday, July 30, 2021 at 7:00:56 PM UTC-4, Lynn McGuire
On Wednesday, July 28, 2021 at 1:34:28 PM UTC-4, Thomas
Post by Thomas Koenig
Post by Bill Gill
Here in NE Oklahoma the Google server farm is big into
alternative energy.
Good for them!
Do they shut down when there is neither sunlight nor wind?
Or how do they store the energy for these periods, and for
how long?
https://electrek.co/2021/06/30/tesla-megapacks-power-on-batter
y-replacing-gas-peaker-plant-california/
Pt
Uh oh. "'Up In Smoke:' Tesla Megapack Battery Catches Fire In Australia "
https://www.zerohedge.com/markets/smoke-australia-tesla-megapac
k-battery-catches-fire
I realize that for you, these batteries are an existential
threat, but the details are Important.
This was a new unit, on its first test after installation. It
was not yet operational. This is exactly why they get tested;
to check for damage during transportation, or errors in setup.
Has no gas turbine peaker plant ever had teething troubles?
Pt
We installed 15 GE Frame 7EA gas turbines (65 MW each in summer,
90 MW in winter, natural gas or diesel fired) in 1987-1988 when
I was at TXU.
Not a single noteworthy problem. They are part of the 300 gas turbine
peakers in Texas still to this date.
While those units were new, I suspect the technology, possibly even
the specific designs, were rather more mature.

But large lithium ion batteries *will* be a major fire hazard,
always, for as long as they are in use.
--
Terry Austin

Proof that Alan Baker is a liar and a fool, and even stupider than
Lynn:
https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/stats/sw-border-migration


"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.
Scott Lurndal
2021-07-28 13:51:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by J. Clarke
On Tue, 27 Jul 2021 18:15:39 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc
Post by Quadibloc
it's mainly because they idle
at 50+ watts, which is, frankly, ridiculous for any modern
system.
I certainly understand that the free market system cannot by
itself account for externalities, and so I have no objection in
principle to government regulation for such reasons.
I am glad to hear that the regulations in question are not onerous,
but only deal with frivolous failures to design machines in a responsible
manner for energy consumption.
They are stupidly concieved. If the energy consumed by computing
exceeds total energy production, it is not going to be gamers driving
it. It is going to be massive server farms supporting cloud
computing. And they haven't done squat about that.
They haven't needed to. The cloud providers are very, very, very
conscious of power usage by every machine (and the supporting
infrastructure, such as cooling, which is a big part of the
energy cost for such server farms). They do have to pay
for it, after all.

As a processor designer, our company is constantly striving to
reduce power (idle and otherwise), and all the server manufacturers
likewise.
Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
2021-07-28 16:21:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by J. Clarke
On Tue, 27 Jul 2021 18:15:39 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc
On Tuesday, July 27, 2021 at 4:06:41 PM UTC-6, Scott Lurndal
it's mainly because they idle
at 50+ watts, which is, frankly, ridiculous for any modern
system.
I certainly understand that the free market system cannot by
itself account for externalities, and so I have no objection in
principle to government regulation for such reasons.
I am glad to hear that the regulations in question are not
onerous, but only deal with frivolous failures to design
machines in a responsible manner for energy consumption.
They are stupidly concieved. If the energy consumed by
computing exceeds total energy production, it is not going to be
gamers driving it. It is going to be massive server farms
supporting cloud computing. And they haven't done squat about
that.
Passing laws that will have a seriously negative effect on a major
state industry would be very poor virtue signaling.
--
Terry Austin

Proof that Alan Baker is a liar and a fool, and even stupider than
Lynn:
https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/stats/sw-border-migration
(May 2019 total for people arrested for entering the United States
illegally is over 132,000 for just the southwest border.)

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB
Quadibloc
2021-07-28 16:29:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
Post by J. Clarke
They are stupidly concieved. If the energy consumed by
computing exceeds total energy production, it is not going to be
gamers driving it. It is going to be massive server farms
supporting cloud computing. And they haven't done squat about
that.
Passing laws that will have a seriously negative effect on a major
state industry would be very poor virtue signaling.
It would be very poor public policy. It would be simply splendid
virtue signaling.

John Savard
Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
2021-07-28 16:57:47 UTC
Permalink
On Wednesday, July 28, 2021 at 10:21:47 AM UTC-6, Jibini Kula
Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
Post by J. Clarke
They are stupidly concieved. If the energy consumed by
computing exceeds total energy production, it is not going to
be gamers driving it. It is going to be massive server farms
supporting cloud computing. And they haven't done squat about
that.
Passing laws that will have a seriously negative effect on a
major state industry would be very poor virtue signaling.
It would be very poor public policy. It would be simply splendid
virtue signaling.
Not when it's an industry with enough political clout to get you un-
elected. And make no mistake, Silicon Valley has that kind of
political clout.
--
Terry Austin

Proof that Alan Baker is a liar and a fool, and even stupider than
Lynn:
https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/stats/sw-border-migration
(May 2019 total for people arrested for entering the United States
illegally is over 132,000 for just the southwest border.)

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB
Thomas Koenig
2021-07-28 17:35:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Quadibloc
Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
Post by J. Clarke
They are stupidly concieved. If the energy consumed by
computing exceeds total energy production, it is not going to be
gamers driving it. It is going to be massive server farms
supporting cloud computing. And they haven't done squat about
that.
Passing laws that will have a seriously negative effect on a major
state industry would be very poor virtue signaling.
It would be very poor public policy. It would be simply splendid
virtue signaling.
Look at what Germany is doing to its automotive industry.
Quadibloc
2021-07-28 03:45:18 UTC
Permalink
Dell has two (count them) of their hundred systems that
they won't ship to Ca, and it's mainly because they idle
at 50+ watts, which is, frankly, ridiculous for any modern
system.
I've now found this video,

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N5fc5ZX6Kzk

which carefully reviews the details of these regulations, and
notes that the limits are reasonable for the reason you mention,
urging a balanced view instead of needless panic.

John Savard
Scott Lurndal
2021-07-28 13:57:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Quadibloc
Dell has two (count them) of their hundred systems that
they won't ship to Ca, and it's mainly because they idle
at 50+ watts, which is, frankly, ridiculous for any modern
system.
I've now found this video,
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N5fc5ZX6Kzk
which carefully reviews the details of these regulations, and
notes that the limits are reasonable for the reason you mention,
urging a balanced view instead of needless panic.
Let that be a lesson, then. Research first, Research second,
Post third...
Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
2021-07-28 16:23:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Scott Lurndal
Post by Quadibloc
Dell has two (count them) of their hundred systems that
they won't ship to Ca, and it's mainly because they idle
at 50+ watts, which is, frankly, ridiculous for any modern
system.
I've now found this video,
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N5fc5ZX6Kzk
which carefully reviews the details of these regulations, and
notes that the limits are reasonable for the reason you mention,
urging a balanced view instead of needless panic.
Let that be a lesson, then. Research first, Research second,
Post third...
Yeah, that's gonna happen with Quaddie.
--
Terry Austin

Proof that Alan Baker is a liar and a fool, and even stupider than
Lynn:
https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/stats/sw-border-migration
(May 2019 total for people arrested for entering the United States
illegally is over 132,000 for just the southwest border.)

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB
pyotr filipivich
2021-07-29 14:01:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by Quadibloc
California, along with Colorado, Hawai'i, Oregon, Vermont, and Washington state, have passed new laws mandating energy efficiency or usage standards for desktop computer systems.
It will no longer be enough to be Energy Star certified.
Thus, some higher-end pre-built computer systems may not be shipped to buyers in those states, or sold in those states.
Additional regulations will come into effect in early December.
https://www.theregister.com/2021/07/26/dell_energy_pcs/
https://wccftech.com/dell-unable-to-fulfill-alienware-aurora-ryzen-edition-orders-in-6-us-states-eco-hazard/
https://www.extremetech.com/computing/325163-alienware-claims-it-cant-sell-high-end-desktop-pcs-in-6-us-states
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QcivEGigiGg
John Savard
People are getting what they "voted" for. Modern Green Economics
in compliance with the latest Climate Change dogmas.
Good and hard.

OTOH, California can't supply electricity to customers as it is,
so better install that windmill to charge the batteries for your
house.

Oh, and please, if you've been voting for The Party, please stay
in (or return home to) California so that you may enjoy the fruits of
your labors.


tschus
pyotr
--
pyotr filipivich
This Week's Panel: Us & Them - Eliminating Them.
Next Month's Panel: Having eliminated the old Them(tm)
Selecting who insufficiently Woke(tm) as to serve as the new Them(tm)
Scott Lurndal
2021-07-29 17:03:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by pyotr filipivich
OTOH, California can't supply electricity to customers as it is,
That is not true at all. The Public Safety power shutdowns are
not because there isn't enough supply. They're because of capitalism
and lack of competent regulation (PG&E returning dividends instead of
investing in their aging infrastructure).

And the single rolling blackout in the last 20 years last summer during the killer heatwave
(increased frequency due to a changing climate) wasn't due to lack of supply,
just lack of foresight, system maintenance (several power plants were
unavailable) and abundent caution. There was no actual
shortage, nor would there have been one without the rolling blackouts.

And note the rolling blackouts only affects small portions of the
northermost part of the state.

So your entire argument is bogus, along with your irrational hatred of California.
Quadibloc
2021-07-29 21:55:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by pyotr filipivich
OTOH, California can't supply electricity to customers as it is,
That is not true at all. The Public Safety power shutdowns are
not because there isn't enough supply.
Carrying electricity over the wires between the power plant and
the customer's home is _part_ of supplying electricity to
*customers*.

The state of California should start immediately stringing up thick
enough copper wires where needed so that electricity would never,
ever need to be shut down due to a risk of causing forest fires, and
send the utilities the bill. Accompanied by regulations limiting their
ability to pass the cost on to consumers.

But _reasonable_ regulations, of course. Their profits and return on
investment may be limited severely, but obviously they can't be
expected to supply electricity at a loss _in marginal terms_; *that*
would be extreme and unworkable.

John Savard
Michael F. Stemper
2021-07-30 12:57:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by Quadibloc
Post by pyotr filipivich
OTOH, California can't supply electricity to customers as it is,
That is not true at all. The Public Safety power shutdowns are
not because there isn't enough supply.
Carrying electricity over the wires between the power plant and
the customer's home is _part_ of supplying electricity to
*customers*.
The state of California should start immediately stringing up thick
enough copper wires
Copper? Copper hasn't been used for transmission conductor in
generations. Any new construction is ACSR:

<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aluminium-conductor_steel-reinforced_cable>
--
Michael F. Stemper
Isaiah 58:6-7
Michael F. Stemper
2021-07-30 14:51:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Michael F. Stemper
Post by Quadibloc
Post by pyotr filipivich
OTOH, California can't supply electricity to customers as it is,
That is not true at all. The Public Safety power shutdowns are
not because there isn't enough supply.
Carrying electricity over the wires between the power plant and
the customer's home is _part_ of supplying electricity to
*customers*.
The state of California should start immediately stringing up thick
enough copper wires
Copper? Copper hasn't been used for transmission conductor in
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aluminium-conductor_steel-reinforced_cable>
Also, because of skin effect, "thick" doesn't significantly increase
the conductor's ampacity.
--
Michael F. Stemper
What happens if you play John Cage's "4'33" at a slower tempo?
pyotr filipivich
2021-07-30 19:34:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Quadibloc
Post by pyotr filipivich
OTOH, California can't supply electricity to customers as it is,
That is not true at all. The Public Safety power shutdowns are
not because there isn't enough supply.
Carrying electricity over the wires between the power plant and
the customer's home is _part_ of supplying electricity to
*customers*.
The state of California should start immediately stringing up thick
enough copper wires where needed so that electricity would never,
ever need to be shut down due to a risk of causing forest fires, and
send the utilities the bill. Accompanied by regulations limiting their
ability to pass the cost on to consumers.
Um, you are aware that the state of California is run by those who
do not want any kind of operations in forested areas which might
endanger the trees? Which is part of why the PG&E hasn't been able to
clear right of ways and other silly notions?
--
pyotr filipivich
This Week's Panel: Us & Them - Eliminating Them.
Next Month's Panel: Having eliminated the old Them(tm)
Selecting who insufficiently Woke(tm) as to serve as the new Them(tm)
Dimensional Traveler
2021-07-30 23:19:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by pyotr filipivich
Post by Quadibloc
Post by pyotr filipivich
OTOH, California can't supply electricity to customers as it is,
That is not true at all. The Public Safety power shutdowns are
not because there isn't enough supply.
Carrying electricity over the wires between the power plant and
the customer's home is _part_ of supplying electricity to
*customers*.
The state of California should start immediately stringing up thick
enough copper wires where needed so that electricity would never,
ever need to be shut down due to a risk of causing forest fires, and
send the utilities the bill. Accompanied by regulations limiting their
ability to pass the cost on to consumers.
Um, you are aware that the state of California is run by those who
do not want any kind of operations in forested areas which might
endanger the trees? Which is part of why the PG&E hasn't been able to
clear right of ways and other silly notions?
No, the main reason why PG&E hasn't maintained their lines is because
they haven't been willing to PAY to maintain their lines.
--
Troll, troll, troll your post gently down the thread
Angrily, angrily, angrily, the net's a nut's scream.
Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
2021-07-30 23:30:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dimensional Traveler
Post by pyotr filipivich
Post by Quadibloc
Post by pyotr filipivich
OTOH, California can't supply electricity to customers as it is,
That is not true at all. The Public Safety power shutdowns
are not because there isn't enough supply.
Carrying electricity over the wires between the power plant
and the customer's home is _part_ of supplying electricity to
*customers*.
The state of California should start immediately stringing up
thick enough copper wires where needed so that electricity
would never, ever need to be shut down due to a risk of
causing forest fires, and send the utilities the bill.
Accompanied by regulations limiting their ability to pass the
cost on to consumers.
Um, you are aware that the state of California is run by
those who
do not want any kind of operations in forested areas which
might endanger the trees? Which is part of why the PG&E hasn't
been able to clear right of ways and other silly notions?
No, the main reason why PG&E hasn't maintained their lines is
because they haven't been willing to PAY to maintain their
lines.
And state regulators have not enforced the requirements on them or
anyone else. The fire situation in Califonria was created
deliberately by the state government. It is *exactly* what they
intended.
--
Terry Austin

Proof that Alan Baker is a liar and a fool, and even stupider than
Lynn:
https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/stats/sw-border-migration
(May 2019 total for people arrested for entering the United States
illegally is over 132,000 for just the southwest border.)

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB
BCFD36
2021-07-31 19:29:27 UTC
Permalink
[stuff deleted]
Post by pyotr filipivich
Um, you are aware that the state of California is run by those who
do not want any kind of operations in forested areas which might
endanger the trees? Which is part of why the PG&E hasn't been able to
clear right of ways and other silly notions?
This is untrue. You have been misinformed or are just lying to push your
agenda. PG&E has been frantically cutting trees and right-of-way since
2017. Note that I live in a rural area covered by PG&E.

Note that some of the fires were started by power lines other than PG&E.
And that the CZU fire in my area last year was lightning caused as are
some of the current fires in Northern California.

They are grossly and negligently (in my opinion) on maintaining their
infrastructure, of that there is no question. Most of the fires in my
area are caused by trees falling through power lines. I can't imagine
how many hours I stood babysitting power downed power lines from fallen
trees or branches. I believe it a law that if a tree falls in Boulder
Creek, it has to involve power lines.

In my area, the 12kv lines are 22+ feet off the ground. They are amid
50-150 foot oaks, firs, madrones, and redwoods. It is difficult to
impossible to maintain a 300 foot clearance
--
Dave Scruggs
Captain, Boulder Creek Fire (Retired)
Sr. Software Engineer - Stellar Solutions (Definitely Retired)
Scott Lurndal
2021-07-31 21:04:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by BCFD36
[stuff deleted]
Post by pyotr filipivich
Um, you are aware that the state of California is run by those who
do not want any kind of operations in forested areas which might
endanger the trees? Which is part of why the PG&E hasn't been able to
clear right of ways and other silly notions?
This is untrue. You have been misinformed or are just lying to push your
agenda. PG&E has been frantically cutting trees and right-of-way since
2017. Note that I live in a rural area covered by PG&E.
Most of the people making comments like Pyotr's have never been
to California and have no clue what the geography is like,
particularly in areas prone to fire.

Fire is a natural part of the California ecosystem, and
70 years of suppression as a general policy has
led to a large buildup of brush (not trees) that becomes
very flammable when the humidity hovers around 5% for weeks
on end.

It's sad that Big Basin suffered so much damage, although most
of the big redwoods survived just fine - it's the man-made
parts (lodges, ranger stations) that took the brunt.
Post by BCFD36
They are grossly and negligently (in my opinion) on maintaining their
infrastructure, of that there is no question.
Indeed.
Post by BCFD36
Most of the fires in my
area are caused by trees falling through power lines. I can't imagine
how many hours I stood babysitting power downed power lines from fallen
trees or branches. I believe it a law that if a tree falls in Boulder
Creek, it has to involve power lines.
There's a 110kv transmission line that runs across the hills
of Santa Teresa county park, and it takes a sharp 90 to
head up to IBM Alamaden Research Center; a couple of years
ago during a winter storm, one of the jumpers on one of
the phases came loose on one end and swung in the wind,
periodically contacting the tower. A couple hours of
constant explosions and bright flashes until they
de-energized the lines. But it was raining, and
that part of the hillside (which burns every three to
five years, usually cigarettes or fireworks) is grassy,
and the arcing occurred at the top of the tower.
BCFD36
2021-07-31 21:25:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Scott Lurndal
Post by BCFD36
[stuff deleted]
Post by pyotr filipivich
Um, you are aware that the state of California is run by those who
do not want any kind of operations in forested areas which might
endanger the trees? Which is part of why the PG&E hasn't been able to
clear right of ways and other silly notions?
This is untrue. You have been misinformed or are just lying to push your
agenda. PG&E has been frantically cutting trees and right-of-way since
2017. Note that I live in a rural area covered by PG&E.
Most of the people making comments like Pyotr's have never been
to California and have no clue what the geography is like,
particularly in areas prone to fire.
Exactly. We have low deserts and high deserts, Mediterranean, temperate
rain forest, and on and on. We have mountains like most people in the US
have never seen unless you live in the Rockies.
Post by Scott Lurndal
Fire is a natural part of the California ecosystem, and
70 years of suppression as a general policy has
led to a large buildup of brush (not trees) that becomes
very flammable when the humidity hovers around 5% for weeks
on end.
In 1999 I went on a strike team (5 engines) up to Butte County for a
series of lightning fires up there. It felt like half the state was on
fire. (Now I know better.) My engine and another was broken out and sent
up across the American River to help with some mop up. Adventures
ensued. My comment to the Battalion Chief there was that this area
needed to burn to clear out all the schmutz. He agreed, but that was not
in the current plan.

I am guessing that this are has burned as it is only a few miles from
the town of Paradise. Paradise, CA no longer exists.
Post by Scott Lurndal
It's sad that Big Basin suffered so much damage, although most
of the big redwoods survived just fine - it's the man-made
parts (lodges, ranger stations) that took the brunt.
Yeah. The video of the engines there in the parking with the trees
exploding, literally exploding, is harrowing. We didn't have any engines
there, they were all CAL Fire. Our engines were just down the road doing
structure protection when they could. They saved some, they lost some.

I take it you are a local boy, maybe the South Bay?
Post by Scott Lurndal
Post by BCFD36
They are grossly and negligently (in my opinion) on maintaining their
infrastructure, of that there is no question.
Indeed.
Post by BCFD36
Most of the fires in my
area are caused by trees falling through power lines. I can't imagine
how many hours I stood babysitting power downed power lines from fallen
trees or branches. I believe it a law that if a tree falls in Boulder
Creek, it has to involve power lines.
There's a 110kv transmission line that runs across the hills
of Santa Teresa county park, and it takes a sharp 90 to
head up to IBM Alamaden Research Center; a couple of years
ago during a winter storm, one of the jumpers on one of
the phases came loose on one end and swung in the wind,
periodically contacting the tower. A couple hours of
constant explosions and bright flashes until they
de-energized the lines. But it was raining, and
that part of the hillside (which burns every three to
five years, usually cigarettes or fireworks) is grassy,
and the arcing occurred at the top of the tower.
The sound of even a 12kv line arcing will scare the piss out of you even
if you know it is coming. It is the sound of DEATH. I hated baby sitting
downed wires. I cannot imagine one of the big boys.
--
Dave Scruggs
Captain, Boulder Creek Fire (Retired)
Sr. Software Engineer - Stellar Solutions (Definitely Retired)
Scott Lurndal
2021-08-01 19:55:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by BCFD36
In 1999 I went on a strike team (5 engines) up to Butte County for a
series of lightning fires up there. It felt like half the state was on
fire. (Now I know better.) My engine and another was broken out and sent
up across the American River to help with some mop up. Adventures
ensued. My comment to the Battalion Chief there was that this area
needed to burn to clear out all the schmutz. He agreed, but that was not
in the current plan.
I am guessing that this are has burned as it is only a few miles from
the town of Paradise. Paradise, CA no longer exists.
I took CA70 along the feather river over to US395 a couple of years
ago, after the fire. There were plenty of burn areas to
the north of the highway, but recovery had started and
was starting to green up.

It is a beautiful drive through the lowest elevation
pass across the Sierra Nevada ending up in the desolate
great basin. Old tunnels, unusual river-driven small powerplants,
and little to no traffic.
Post by BCFD36
Post by Scott Lurndal
It's sad that Big Basin suffered so much damage, although most
of the big redwoods survived just fine - it's the man-made
parts (lodges, ranger stations) that took the brunt.
Yeah. The video of the engines there in the parking with the trees
exploding, literally exploding, is harrowing. We didn't have any engines
there, they were all CAL Fire. Our engines were just down the road doing
structure protection when they could. They saved some, they lost some.
I take it you are a local boy, maybe the South Bay?
Indeed, Mt. Madonna County Park is just a hop-skip-n-jump away.
pyotr filipivich
2021-07-30 19:34:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Scott Lurndal
Post by pyotr filipivich
OTOH, California can't supply electricity to customers as it is,
That is not true at all. The Public Safety power shutdowns are
not because there isn't enough supply. They're because of capitalism
and lack of competent regulation (PG&E returning dividends instead of
investing in their aging infrastructure).
And the single rolling blackout in the last 20 years last summer during the killer heatwave
(increased frequency due to a changing climate) wasn't due to lack of supply,
just lack of foresight, system maintenance (several power plants were
unavailable) and abundent caution. There was no actual
shortage, nor would there have been one without the rolling blackouts.
And note the rolling blackouts only affects small portions of the
northermost part of the state.
Right there you contradict your opening statement.

Sorry, didn't want to cause you to commit thoughtcrime.
Post by Scott Lurndal
So your entire argument is bogus, along with your irrational hatred of California.
DemSoc bellyfeelers duckspeak blackwhite double plusgood.
--
pyotr filipivich
This Week's Panel: Us & Them - Eliminating Them.
Next Month's Panel: Having eliminated the old Them(tm)
Selecting who insufficiently Woke(tm) as to serve as the new Them(tm)
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