Discussion:
big Honorverse MMPBs
(too old to reply)
Lynn McGuire
2019-10-18 21:06:10 UTC
Permalink
I have just gotten a couple of more Honorverse books in MMPB. Look at
the page counts.

_A Shadow of Victory_ by David Weber - 1,168 pages

https://www.amazon.com/Shadow-Victory-Honor-Harrington-David/dp/1481482882/

_Uncompromising Honor_ by David Weber - 1,120 pages
https://www.amazon.com/Uncompromising-Honor-19-Harrington/dp/198212413X/

Yup, the spines on these will be broken when I am finished with reading
them.

Lynn
Dorothy J Heydt
2019-10-18 23:03:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lynn McGuire
I have just gotten a couple of more Honorverse books in MMPB. Look at
the page counts.
_A Shadow of Victory_ by David Weber - 1,168 pages
https://www.amazon.com/Shadow-Victory-Honor-Harrington-David/dp/1481482882/
_Uncompromising Honor_ by David Weber - 1,120 pages
https://www.amazon.com/Uncompromising-Honor-19-Harrington/dp/198212413X/
Yup, the spines on these will be broken when I am finished with reading
them.
What my son calls "spaceship porn."
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/
Chrysi Cat
2019-10-28 16:23:48 UTC
Permalink
I have just gotten a couple of more Honorverse books in MMPB.  Look at
the page counts.
_A Shadow of Victory_ by David Weber - 1,168 pages
https://www.amazon.com/Shadow-Victory-Honor-Harrington-David/dp/1481482882/
_Uncompromising Honor_ by David Weber - 1,120 pages
https://www.amazon.com/Uncompromising-Honor-19-Harrington/dp/198212413X/
Yup, the spines on these will be broken when I am finished with reading
them.
Lynn
It's almost as though the codex format has some ridiculous drawbacks
once a single volume reaches a certain thickness--and as though modern
publishers insist on exceeding that size limit.

I wonder if they're all only thinking about their ebook editions since
quite literally the print forms basically decompose themselves upon opening?
--
Chrysi Cat
1/2 anthrocat, nearly 1/2 anthrofox, all magical
Transgoddess, quick to anger.
Call me Chrysi or call me Kat, I'll respond to either!
James Nicoll
2019-10-28 16:40:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chrysi Cat
I have just gotten a couple of more Honorverse books in MMPB.  Look at
the page counts.
_A Shadow of Victory_ by David Weber - 1,168 pages
https://www.amazon.com/Shadow-Victory-Honor-Harrington-David/dp/1481482882/
_Uncompromising Honor_ by David Weber - 1,120 pages
https://www.amazon.com/Uncompromising-Honor-19-Harrington/dp/198212413X/
Yup, the spines on these will be broken when I am finished with reading
them.
Lynn
It's almost as though the codex format has some ridiculous drawbacks
once a single volume reaches a certain thickness--and as though modern
publishers insist on exceeding that size limit.
I wonder if they're all only thinking about their ebook editions since
quite literally the print forms basically decompose themselves upon opening?
Paperbacks are supposed to be cheap, disposable editions, though. It just happens
they are overengineered for the purposes of people who read books at most once.
--
My reviews can be found at http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/
My tor pieces at https://www.tor.com/author/james-davis-nicoll/
My Dreamwidth at https://james-davis-nicoll.dreamwidth.org/
My patreon is at https://www.patreon.com/jamesdnicoll
Lynn McGuire
2019-10-28 20:42:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by James Nicoll
Post by Chrysi Cat
I have just gotten a couple of more Honorverse books in MMPB.  Look at
the page counts.
_A Shadow of Victory_ by David Weber - 1,168 pages
https://www.amazon.com/Shadow-Victory-Honor-Harrington-David/dp/1481482882/
_Uncompromising Honor_ by David Weber - 1,120 pages
https://www.amazon.com/Uncompromising-Honor-19-Harrington/dp/198212413X/
Yup, the spines on these will be broken when I am finished with reading
them.
Lynn
It's almost as though the codex format has some ridiculous drawbacks
once a single volume reaches a certain thickness--and as though modern
publishers insist on exceeding that size limit.
I wonder if they're all only thinking about their ebook editions since
quite literally the print forms basically decompose themselves upon opening?
Paperbacks are supposed to be cheap, disposable editions, though. It just happens
they are overengineered for the purposes of people who read books at most once.
This is why I prefer Trade Paperbacks. I sure do not like paying extra
for them though.

Lynn
Robert Carnegie
2019-10-28 21:59:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chrysi Cat
I have just gotten a couple of more Honorverse books in MMPB.  Look at
the page counts.
_A Shadow of Victory_ by David Weber - 1,168 pages
https://www.amazon.com/Shadow-Victory-Honor-Harrington-David/dp/1481482882/
_Uncompromising Honor_ by David Weber - 1,120 pages
https://www.amazon.com/Uncompromising-Honor-19-Harrington/dp/198212413X/
Yup, the spines on these will be broken when I am finished with reading
them.
Lynn
It's almost as though the codex format has some ridiculous drawbacks
once a single volume reaches a certain thickness--and as though modern
publishers insist on exceeding that size limit.
I wonder if they're all only thinking about their ebook editions since
quite literally the print forms basically decompose themselves upon opening?
Our wise ancestors saw no inconsistency in one novel
appearing as three volumes.

According to this, which I've skimmed, libararies
killed that?!
<https://www.branchcollective.org/?ps_articles=richard-menke-the-end-of-the-three-volume-novel-system-27-june-1894>
Lynn McGuire
2019-10-28 22:28:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by Chrysi Cat
I have just gotten a couple of more Honorverse books in MMPB.  Look at
the page counts.
_A Shadow of Victory_ by David Weber - 1,168 pages
https://www.amazon.com/Shadow-Victory-Honor-Harrington-David/dp/1481482882/
_Uncompromising Honor_ by David Weber - 1,120 pages
https://www.amazon.com/Uncompromising-Honor-19-Harrington/dp/198212413X/
Yup, the spines on these will be broken when I am finished with reading
them.
Lynn
It's almost as though the codex format has some ridiculous drawbacks
once a single volume reaches a certain thickness--and as though modern
publishers insist on exceeding that size limit.
I wonder if they're all only thinking about their ebook editions since
quite literally the print forms basically decompose themselves upon opening?
Our wise ancestors saw no inconsistency in one novel
appearing as three volumes.
According to this, which I've skimmed, libararies
killed that?!
<https://www.branchcollective.org/?ps_articles=richard-menke-the-end-of-the-three-volume-novel-system-27-june-1894>
So the Honorverse series would be 57 novels instead of 19 ? Kind of
like the Tarzan and Tom Swift books ? Not even close to the Perry
Rhodan books though.

That would be better on Weber's checkbook.

Lynn
Robert Carnegie
2019-10-29 11:20:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by Chrysi Cat
I have just gotten a couple of more Honorverse books in MMPB.  Look at
the page counts.
_A Shadow of Victory_ by David Weber - 1,168 pages
https://www.amazon.com/Shadow-Victory-Honor-Harrington-David/dp/1481482882/
_Uncompromising Honor_ by David Weber - 1,120 pages
https://www.amazon.com/Uncompromising-Honor-19-Harrington/dp/198212413X/
Yup, the spines on these will be broken when I am finished with reading
them.
Lynn
It's almost as though the codex format has some ridiculous drawbacks
once a single volume reaches a certain thickness--and as though modern
publishers insist on exceeding that size limit.
I wonder if they're all only thinking about their ebook editions since
quite literally the print forms basically decompose themselves upon opening?
Our wise ancestors saw no inconsistency in one novel
appearing as three volumes.
According to this, which I've skimmed, libararies
killed that?!
<https://www.branchcollective.org/?ps_articles=richard-menke-the-end-of-the-three-volume-novel-system-27-june-1894>
So the Honorverse series would be 57 novels instead of 19 ? Kind of
like the Tarzan and Tom Swift books ? Not even close to the Perry
Rhodan books though.
That would be better on Weber's checkbook.
No, no. 57 /volumes/. How many distinct novels,
I allow you to decide.

If the page I linked to gives a reliable account of this,
the "triple-decker" was physically robust - and sold to
commercial libraries as being too expensive for most
readers, but might be followed by a cheaper-priced
but not necessarily worse retail edition in three volumes
or just one. Library customers might pay to borrow one
volume at a time, and work through the set thus.

Our genre trilogies correspond fairly well to these
triple-deckers, and much of the latter was pulp-ish
in content - although above the class of "shilling
shocker" and "penny dreadful" - so the pattern of
Extruded Fantasy Product also rhymes with what came
before. But it's also how the good stuff came out.

I'm just puzzled that when libraries capped their price
per volume, you didn't get novels in four, five, or six
instalments. Perhaps that was tried; I haven't yet
finished reading the article.

Library books work hard for a living, so there may be
fewer survivors than you'd expect.
Kevrob
2019-10-29 12:40:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robert Carnegie
Library books work hard for a living, so there may be
fewer survivors than you'd expect.
There is (or was) something called "library binding,"
which was more expensive and more durable than standard
trade cloth. If you ordered one at a trade bookstore, you
might get surcharged for it, as the publishers sold them
net priced or at short discount. Usually there was no dust
jacket, but they lasted through many more lendings.

Some paperbacks could be given an "aftermarket" conversion
to a stiff, laminated board cover, if no hardcover was available.

Kevin R
Lynn McGuire
2019-10-29 17:36:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kevrob
Post by Robert Carnegie
Library books work hard for a living, so there may be
fewer survivors than you'd expect.
There is (or was) something called "library binding,"
which was more expensive and more durable than standard
trade cloth. If you ordered one at a trade bookstore, you
might get surcharged for it, as the publishers sold them
net priced or at short discount. Usually there was no dust
jacket, but they lasted through many more lendings.
Some paperbacks could be given an "aftermarket" conversion
to a stiff, laminated board cover, if no hardcover was available.
Kevin R
I used to see those back in the 60s and 70s quite frequently. I am
fairly sure that they used the cardboard box that the paperbacks were
shipped in as the covers.

Lynn
Jack Bohn
2019-10-29 14:52:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by Robert Carnegie
Our wise ancestors saw no inconsistency in one novel
appearing as three volumes.
According to this, which I've skimmed, libararies
killed that?!
<https://www.branchcollective.org/?ps_articles=richard-menke-the-end-of-the-three-volume-novel-system-27-june-1894>
So the Honorverse series would be 57 novels instead of 19 ? Kind of
like the Tarzan and Tom Swift books ? Not even close to the Perry
Rhodan books though.
No, no. 57 /volumes/. How many distinct novels,
I allow you to decide.
If the page I linked to gives a reliable account of this,
the "triple-decker" was physically robust - and sold to
commercial libraries as being too expensive for most
readers, but might be followed by a cheaper-priced
but not necessarily worse retail edition in three volumes
or just one. Library customers might pay to borrow one
volume at a time, and work through the set thus.
Our genre trilogies correspond fairly well to these
triple-deckers, and much of the latter was pulp-ish
in content - although above the class of "shilling
shocker" and "penny dreadful" - so the pattern of
Extruded Fantasy Product also rhymes with what came
before. But it's also how the good stuff came out.
Explains a reference in the novel _Vice Versa_ by F. Anstey (1882):
...
passing the time with that description of literature
known as "Sunday reading."

And here, at the risk of being guilty of a digression, I
must pause to record my admiration for this exceedingly
happy form of compromise, which is, I think, peculiar to
the British and, to a certain extent, the American
nations.

It has many developments; ranging from the mild
Transatlantic compound of cookery and camp-meetings, to
the semi-novel, redeemed and chastened by an arrangement
which sandwiches a sermon or a biblical lecture between
each chapter of the story—a great convenience for the
race of skippers.

Then there are one or two illustrated magazines which it
is always allowable to read on the Sabbath without fear
of rebuke from the strictest—though it is not quite easy
to see why.

Open any one of the monthly numbers, and the chances are
that you may possibly find at one part a neat little
doctrinal essay by a literary bishop; the rest of the
contents will consist of nothing more serious than a paper
upon "cockroaches and their habits" by an eminent savant;
a description of foreign travel, done in a brilliant and
wholly secular vein; and, further on again, an article on
æsthetic furniture—while the balance of the number will be
devoted to instalments of two thrilling novels by popular
authors, whose theology is seldom their strongest point.

Oddly enough, too, when these very novels come out later
in three-volume form, with the "mark of the beast" in the
shape of a circulating library ticket upon them, they will
be fortunate if they are not interdicted altogether by
some of the serious families who take in the magazines as
being "so suitable for Sundays."
Post by Robert Carnegie
I'm just puzzled that when libraries capped their price
per volume, you didn't get novels in four, five, or six
instalments. Perhaps that was tried; I haven't yet
finished reading the article.
Would that require changing the story to a five-act structure? How does a five-act structure differ from the classic three-act -- if that is, as I've heard, "In the first act, you chase your hero up a tree, in the second act, you throw rocks at him up there, in the third act, he comes down from the tree."?

Are the three volumes of the novel already at the limit of their padding? The lending libraries seem to be on the Netflix mail model; a subscription fee for all you can use, with the throttling mechanism not shipping or corporate handling, but that the volumes cannot be blown through in an evening.


My Halloween reading is Jane Austen's _Northanger Abbey_(1803-ish), in which her heroine reads novels, because heroines in novels should stand together. Have to look up if any of the "horrid" titles she mentions are actual books.
--
-Jack
Kevrob
2019-10-29 15:14:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jack Bohn
Post by Robert Carnegie
I'm just puzzled that when libraries capped their price
per volume, you didn't get novels in four, five, or six
instalments. Perhaps that was tried; I haven't yet
finished reading the article.
Would that require changing the story to a five-act structure? How does a five-act structure differ from the classic three-act -- if that is, as I've heard, "In the first act, you chase your hero up a tree, in the second act, you throw rocks at him up there, in the third act, he comes down from the tree."?
See:

http://thepulparchvist.blogspot.com/2016/10/lester-dents-pulp-master-formula.html

and

http://thepulparchvist.blogspot.com/2017/05/a-million-words-year-for-ten-straight.html
Post by Jack Bohn
Are the three volumes of the novel already at the limit of their padding? The lending libraries seem to be on the Netflix mail model; a subscription fee for all you can use, with the throttling mechanism not shipping or corporate handling, but that the volumes cannot be blown through in an evening.
The bookshop I worked for in the mid-80s through the early Oughties was
founded in 1927 as, mainly, a lending library. It originally featured
books the local public library considered not genteel enough to have
in its collection. It managed to survive the Depression, a World War
and the early days of the internet, but "disintermediation" eventually
got it.
Post by Jack Bohn
My Halloween reading is Jane Austen's _Northanger Abbey_(1803-ish), in which her heroine reads novels, because heroines in novels should stand together. Have to look up if any of the "horrid" titles she mentions are actual books.
The reading of novels was frowned upon by highbrows for a long time.
That disdain was transferred to genre fiction, after "serious literature"
managed to drag itself inside the pale, and be in the position to throw
stones at its poor relations outside.

Kevin R
Paul S Person
2019-10-29 17:12:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kevrob
Post by Jack Bohn
Post by Robert Carnegie
I'm just puzzled that when libraries capped their price
per volume, you didn't get novels in four, five, or six
instalments. Perhaps that was tried; I haven't yet
finished reading the article.
Would that require changing the story to a five-act structure? How does a five-act structure differ from the classic three-act -- if that is, as I've heard, "In the first act, you chase your hero up a tree, in the second act, you throw rocks at him up there, in the third act, he comes down from the tree."?
http://thepulparchvist.blogspot.com/2016/10/lester-dents-pulp-master-formula.html
and
http://thepulparchvist.blogspot.com/2017/05/a-million-words-year-for-ten-straight.html
Post by Jack Bohn
Are the three volumes of the novel already at the limit of their padding? The lending libraries seem to be on the Netflix mail model; a subscription fee for all you can use, with the throttling mechanism not shipping or corporate handling, but that the volumes cannot be blown through in an evening.
The bookshop I worked for in the mid-80s through the early Oughties was
founded in 1927 as, mainly, a lending library. It originally featured
books the local public library considered not genteel enough to have
in its collection. It managed to survive the Depression, a World War
and the early days of the internet, but "disintermediation" eventually
got it.
Post by Jack Bohn
My Halloween reading is Jane Austen's _Northanger Abbey_(1803-ish), in which her heroine reads novels, because heroines in novels should stand together. Have to look up if any of the "horrid" titles she mentions are actual books.
The reading of novels was frowned upon by highbrows for a long time.
That disdain was transferred to genre fiction, after "serious literature"
managed to drag itself inside the pale, and be in the position to throw
stones at its poor relations outside.
IIRC, the very /concept/ of a "new story" (ie, "novel") was frowned on
when they first appeared because the "old stories" (The Bible, Homer,
the other Greeks, the Aeneid, Aesop, etc) were supposed to be all that
was needed, and, after all, all novelty was of the Devil.
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."
Kevrob
2019-10-29 17:30:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paul S Person
IIRC, the very /concept/ of a "new story" (ie, "novel") was frowned on
when they first appeared because the "old stories" (The Bible, Homer,
the other Greeks, the Aeneid, Aesop, etc) were supposed to be all that
was needed, and, after all, all novelty was of the Devil.
[quote]

That is a good idea, but it is a new one, and we fear
it, so we must reject it.

[/quote] - Lothar of The Hill People
{Mike Myyers on SNL}

--
Kevin R
a.a #2310
Juho Julkunen
2019-10-29 18:51:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jack Bohn
Would that require changing the story to a five-act structure? How does a five-act structure differ from the classic three-act -- if that is, as I've heard, "In the first act, you chase your hero up a tree, in the second act, you throw rocks at him up there, in the third act, he comes down from the tree."?
Actually five-act structure is the classic one.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dramatic_structure
--
Juho Julkunen
Paul S Person
2019-10-29 17:06:53 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 28 Oct 2019 14:59:51 -0700 (PDT), Robert Carnegie
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by Chrysi Cat
I have just gotten a couple of more Honorverse books in MMPB.  Look at
the page counts.
_A Shadow of Victory_ by David Weber - 1,168 pages
https://www.amazon.com/Shadow-Victory-Honor-Harrington-David/dp/1481482882/
_Uncompromising Honor_ by David Weber - 1,120 pages
https://www.amazon.com/Uncompromising-Honor-19-Harrington/dp/198212413X/
Yup, the spines on these will be broken when I am finished with reading
them.
Lynn
It's almost as though the codex format has some ridiculous drawbacks
once a single volume reaches a certain thickness--and as though modern
publishers insist on exceeding that size limit.
I wonder if they're all only thinking about their ebook editions since
quite literally the print forms basically decompose themselves upon opening?
Our wise ancestors saw no inconsistency in one novel
appearing as three volumes.
According to this, which I've skimmed, libararies
killed that?!
<https://www.branchcollective.org/?ps_articles=richard-menke-the-end-of-the-three-volume-novel-system-27-june-1894>
I once read the /first/ volume of a French novel about an insidious
Jesuit plot to control three little girls so that the Jesuits could
take the enormous fortune their parents left them.

But I could never find the second or third volume on the shelves.

This led to the development of a rule I applied to both /LOTR/,
/Illuminatus!/, and /The Book of One Thousand Nights and a Night/:
don't buy any part of it until you can buy all the parts at once.

With ebooks, I have relaxed a bit. But then, an ebook may be withdrawn
by the publisher (I suppose), but it /never/ goes out of stock.
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."
Paul S Person
2019-10-29 17:02:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chrysi Cat
I have just gotten a couple of more Honorverse books in MMPB.  Look at
the page counts.
_A Shadow of Victory_ by David Weber - 1,168 pages
https://www.amazon.com/Shadow-Victory-Honor-Harrington-David/dp/1481482882/
_Uncompromising Honor_ by David Weber - 1,120 pages
https://www.amazon.com/Uncompromising-Honor-19-Harrington/dp/198212413X/
Yup, the spines on these will be broken when I am finished with reading
them.
Lynn
It's almost as though the codex format has some ridiculous drawbacks
once a single volume reaches a certain thickness--and as though modern
publishers insist on exceeding that size limit.
Not if they are bound properly.

But how many books are bound properly these days? Even hardcovers?

Paperbacks have varied over the years, some bindings working fine,
some losing a page here and there, some separating into completely
detached sections.

Hardcovers have faired better, but some bindings have been
problematic.

The RSV I am reading not only has sewn-in whatchamacallets, but the
first and last have an extra bit of stiching, above the normal bit in
the center, ensuring against any tendency to pull away from the
covers. But that was manufactured back in the 50s or early 60s.
Post by Chrysi Cat
I wonder if they're all only thinking about their ebook editions since
quite literally the print forms basically decompose themselves upon opening?
Well, if so, I wish they would give more attention to their quality.

To be fair, most of those that have been published recently enough for
the camera-ready text to be used are done pretty well, although
occasional problems occur. For example, hyphens that probably were
suppressed in the print edition (or ended up at the end of a line)
sometimes appear in mid-word in mid-line. Occasionally a paragraph
will be centered instead of left-justified. But textual problems are
almost certainly present in the printed editions as well.

It is mostly the less-expensive scanned editions that have the typos.
The Dickens collection used "l:" for "k" in some novels (these omnibus
editions are conglomerations of editions done by others, so quality
varies). Searching for "l:brought up "l" followed by /every
conceivable punction mark/ except ":".

The question this poses is:
if, in 3000 years, this is the /only/ edition of Dickens to survive,
will Learned Scholars be locked in endless debate over whether the use
of "l:" for "k" is a scanning error, a typo, or simply an alternative
way of writing "k"?

And that's the core of the problem: the digital forms of everything is
at least potentially far more durable than the paper. But if the
digital form is inaccurate, what will that do to the content?
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."
Kevrob
2019-10-29 17:09:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paul S Person
The RSV I am reading not only has sewn-in whatchamacallets,
Signatures? Section?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Section_(bookbinding)

Kevin R
Paul S Person
2019-10-30 16:20:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kevrob
Post by Paul S Person
The RSV I am reading not only has sewn-in whatchamacallets,
Signatures? Section?
Cute.

Agent only underlines https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Section_, so
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Section is what the link brings up.
Other newsreaders may do better.

Yes, and the first line suggests that "gathering" is also used.

Sorry for the incredibly bad text I produced.

I remember, for some reason, having a lot of trouble with "l:",
including accidentally hitting the "Insert" key, which may explain
'"l:brought up' rather than '"l:" brought up'.

But, really, "punction" for "punctuation"?
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."
Kevrob
2019-10-30 17:01:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paul S Person
Post by Kevrob
Post by Paul S Person
The RSV I am reading not only has sewn-in whatchamacallets,
Signatures? Section?
Cute.
Agent only underlines https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Section_, so
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Section is what the link brings up.
Other newsreaders may do better.
Yes, and the first line suggests that "gathering" is also used.
Sorry for the incredibly bad text I produced.
I remember, for some reason, having a lot of trouble with "l:",
including accidentally hitting the "Insert" key, which may explain
'"l:brought up' rather than '"l:" brought up'.
But, really, "punction" for "punctuation"?
As a bookseller, getting a case of books with duplicates
of some signatures, and others missing was, to borrow a
Britishism, enough to get you sectioned! We usually didn't
find out until angry customers brought them back.

Kevin R
Jaimie Vandenbergh
2019-10-31 09:57:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kevrob
Post by Paul S Person
Post by Kevrob
Post by Paul S Person
The RSV I am reading not only has sewn-in whatchamacallets,
Signatures? Section?
Cute.
Agent only underlines https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Section_, so
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Section is what the link brings up.
Other newsreaders may do better.
Yes, and the first line suggests that "gathering" is also used.
Sorry for the incredibly bad text I produced.
I remember, for some reason, having a lot of trouble with "l:",
including accidentally hitting the "Insert" key, which may explain
'"l:brought up' rather than '"l:" brought up'.
But, really, "punction" for "punctuation"?
As a bookseller, getting a case of books with duplicates
of some signatures, and others missing was, to borrow a
Britishism, enough to get you sectioned! We usually didn't
find out until angry customers brought them back.
I was very put out to find that after I'd waited for all three hardbacks
of the very fat _Baroque Cycle_ by Neal Stephenson, I started reading to
find duplicated signatures towards the end of book one. Of course the
hardback was then not in stock at the physical booksellers, having long
left the shelves.

Fortunately there was a bad scan of it on the Internet, which I judged
ethically fine to read. That was my first foray into ebooks, and later
into using abebooks to find a replacement hardback. Thanks for improving
my life, bad printer!

Somehow I currently have two good copies of book one in hardback, and no
bad one. I have forgotten how I managed to make it into this position.
I've also never completed the series, tailing off in book two twice now
despite enjoying every other Stephenson.

Cheers - Jaimie
--
"But people have always eaten people!
What else is there to eat?
If the Juju had meant us not to eat people
He wouldn't have made us of meat!" -- Flanders & Swann
Kevrob
2019-10-31 11:50:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jaimie Vandenbergh
Somehow I currently have two good copies of book one in hardback, and no
bad one. I have forgotten how I managed to make it into this position.
I've also never completed the series, tailing off in book two twice now
despite enjoying every other Stephenson
Sometimes a client would refuse the exchange. if the book with
the bad signature was a first edition, and the replacement
was a later printing. This would only happen rarely. After
the run up in prices of Stephen King firsts, some folks who wanted
to Get Rich Quick started targeting "hot new authors" they hoped
would be The Next Big Thing, and only a "true first" would do for
them. In many cases, these tyro collectors were not well-versed
in identifying a first/first [firs edition, first printing] and
were paranoid they wouldn't get what they wanted. Mind you,
that for some of my bookselling career I worked in a store with
a used books department, and the truly rare books in a locked case,
but I wasn't responsible for buying them. If he was there, I could
call in the buyer to lend "expertise" - in effect, to hand-hold the
customer through his freak-out.

The shift to e-books must be affecting the book collecting hobby,
but other than smaller initial print runs, I don't know what
else that would be.

Kevin R
Jaimie Vandenbergh
2019-10-31 15:20:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kevrob
Post by Jaimie Vandenbergh
Somehow I currently have two good copies of book one in hardback, and no
bad one. I have forgotten how I managed to make it into this position.
I've also never completed the series, tailing off in book two twice now
despite enjoying every other Stephenson
Sometimes a client would refuse the exchange. if the book with
the bad signature was a first edition, and the replacement
was a later printing.
That was the case for me, first/first, and I assumed that's why I had
two copies. But both are now later eds and the bad print has gone away
somewhere. I appear to have recycled the brain cells that knew what
happened.

I do remember ordering a new hardback and receiving a trade paperback
and having a weeks-long discussion with the seller who refused return
because they have the same ISBN and it wasn't their problem they'd
listed it as a hardback. My credit card company happily revoked the
payment.
Post by Kevrob
The shift to e-books must be affecting the book collecting hobby,
but other than smaller initial print runs, I don't know what
else that would be.
Now the old MMPB is basically dead, it's hardly worth waiting for a
trade paperback that'll be much the same cost as the hardback and a year
later. So I tend to buy hardbacks (to cherish and to sponsor the author)
and ebook (to read on the phone/ebook reader). Double win for the author
and publisher.

I admit I'm an addict, as well as in a lucky financial situation where I
can treat books as just purchase on sight.

Cheers - Jaimie
--
Ambiguity Man Strikes Again! (...or /does/ he?)
-- Eric Schwartz, asr
Paul S Person
2019-10-31 15:58:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kevrob
Post by Jaimie Vandenbergh
Somehow I currently have two good copies of book one in hardback, and no
bad one. I have forgotten how I managed to make it into this position.
I've also never completed the series, tailing off in book two twice now
despite enjoying every other Stephenson
Sometimes a client would refuse the exchange. if the book with
the bad signature was a first edition, and the replacement
was a later printing. This would only happen rarely. After
the run up in prices of Stephen King firsts, some folks who wanted
to Get Rich Quick started targeting "hot new authors" they hoped
would be The Next Big Thing, and only a "true first" would do for
them. In many cases, these tyro collectors were not well-versed
in identifying a first/first [firs edition, first printing] and
were paranoid they wouldn't get what they wanted. Mind you,
that for some of my bookselling career I worked in a store with
a used books department, and the truly rare books in a locked case,
but I wasn't responsible for buying them. If he was there, I could
call in the buyer to lend "expertise" - in effect, to hand-hold the
customer through his freak-out.
The shift to e-books must be affecting the book collecting hobby,
but other than smaller initial print runs, I don't know what
else that would be.
I find it hard to believe that, 50 years from now, people will be
paying a premium for the early Kindle editiion of novel X which has
"tyope" for "typo" at Kindle location 10 to the google minus 1.

But I suppose anything is possible.
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."
Paul S Person
2019-10-31 15:56:16 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 31 Oct 2019 09:57:14 +0000, Jaimie Vandenbergh
Post by Jaimie Vandenbergh
Post by Kevrob
Post by Paul S Person
Post by Kevrob
Post by Paul S Person
The RSV I am reading not only has sewn-in whatchamacallets,
Signatures? Section?
Cute.
Agent only underlines https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Section_, so
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Section is what the link brings up.
Other newsreaders may do better.
Yes, and the first line suggests that "gathering" is also used.
Sorry for the incredibly bad text I produced.
I remember, for some reason, having a lot of trouble with "l:",
including accidentally hitting the "Insert" key, which may explain
'"l:brought up' rather than '"l:" brought up'.
But, really, "punction" for "punctuation"?
As a bookseller, getting a case of books with duplicates
of some signatures, and others missing was, to borrow a
Britishism, enough to get you sectioned! We usually didn't
find out until angry customers brought them back.
I was very put out to find that after I'd waited for all three hardbacks
of the very fat _Baroque Cycle_ by Neal Stephenson, I started reading to
find duplicated signatures towards the end of book one. Of course the
hardback was then not in stock at the physical booksellers, having long
left the shelves.
Fortunately there was a bad scan of it on the Internet, which I judged
ethically fine to read. That was my first foray into ebooks, and later
into using abebooks to find a replacement hardback. Thanks for improving
my life, bad printer!
Somehow I currently have two good copies of book one in hardback, and no
bad one. I have forgotten how I managed to make it into this position.
I've also never completed the series, tailing off in book two twice now
despite enjoying every other Stephenson.
Yeah, there's a moral dilemma of sorts, isn't there?

On the one hand, recycling the defective copy is ... destroying a
book!

On the other hand, selling or donating a defective copy doesn't seem
entirely right either.

I /have/ recycled books. One was a book that literally fell apart when
I read it the second time (paperback with a particularly inadequate
binding) and found it not interesting enough to keep. Another was a
classic that was lacking the last third (which, clearly, had separated
from the rest of the paperback and gotten lost).

But when I was taking them over to the used book store and they
offered to "pulp" the ones they wouldn't pay for, I declined the offer
and donated the rejects to the library. Who can say? One place's junk
may be another place's treasure! But those were all in reasonable
condition: complete and not falling apart.
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."
Robert Carnegie
2019-10-31 23:31:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paul S Person
On Thu, 31 Oct 2019 09:57:14 +0000, Jaimie Vandenbergh
Post by Jaimie Vandenbergh
Post by Kevrob
Post by Paul S Person
Post by Kevrob
Post by Paul S Person
The RSV I am reading not only has sewn-in whatchamacallets,
Signatures? Section?
Cute.
Agent only underlines https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Section_, so
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Section is what the link brings up.
Other newsreaders may do better.
Yes, and the first line suggests that "gathering" is also used.
Sorry for the incredibly bad text I produced.
I remember, for some reason, having a lot of trouble with "l:",
including accidentally hitting the "Insert" key, which may explain
'"l:brought up' rather than '"l:" brought up'.
But, really, "punction" for "punctuation"?
As a bookseller, getting a case of books with duplicates
of some signatures, and others missing was, to borrow a
Britishism, enough to get you sectioned! We usually didn't
find out until angry customers brought them back.
I was very put out to find that after I'd waited for all three hardbacks
of the very fat _Baroque Cycle_ by Neal Stephenson, I started reading to
find duplicated signatures towards the end of book one. Of course the
hardback was then not in stock at the physical booksellers, having long
left the shelves.
Fortunately there was a bad scan of it on the Internet, which I judged
ethically fine to read. That was my first foray into ebooks, and later
into using abebooks to find a replacement hardback. Thanks for improving
my life, bad printer!
Somehow I currently have two good copies of book one in hardback, and no
bad one. I have forgotten how I managed to make it into this position.
I've also never completed the series, tailing off in book two twice now
despite enjoying every other Stephenson.
Yeah, there's a moral dilemma of sorts, isn't there?
On the one hand, recycling the defective copy is ... destroying a
book!
On the other hand, selling or donating a defective copy doesn't seem
entirely right either.
I /have/ recycled books. One was a book that literally fell apart when
I read it the second time (paperback with a particularly inadequate
binding) and found it not interesting enough to keep. Another was a
classic that was lacking the last third (which, clearly, had separated
from the rest of the paperback and gotten lost).
A defective book is, broadly, useless, if you can't read
it as it should be read - and if it's not repairable
without expending more effort and resources than just
replacing it. If a "signature" is missing, usually
because a wrong one is included, such as another part
duplicated... well, once I realised that my first copy of
Roger Zelazny's _Today We Choose Faces_ had that issue,
it became /slightly/ less confusing. I now believe that
the huge jump in setting partway through is intentional.

But they can't just give away the missing bits, that would
be open to abuse... perhaps allow some trustworthy charity
to print-on-demand that part?

A lesser fault in a book I think I got second hand is a
cover that proclaims and describes Michael Bond's
_Monsieur Pamplemousse On the Spot_, but actually
contains the earlier story simply called _Monsieur Pamplemousse_: the previous owner appears to have done
nothing about that, but then "previous owner" is an odd
concept itself: if you have a book, don't you, um...
go on having it? But in this case, maybe they did -
with the correct cover.
Paul S Person
2019-11-01 16:31:03 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 31 Oct 2019 16:31:00 -0700 (PDT), Robert Carnegie
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by Paul S Person
On Thu, 31 Oct 2019 09:57:14 +0000, Jaimie Vandenbergh
Post by Jaimie Vandenbergh
Post by Kevrob
Post by Paul S Person
Post by Kevrob
Post by Paul S Person
The RSV I am reading not only has sewn-in whatchamacallets,
Signatures? Section?
Cute.
Agent only underlines https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Section_, so
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Section is what the link brings up.
Other newsreaders may do better.
Yes, and the first line suggests that "gathering" is also used.
Sorry for the incredibly bad text I produced.
I remember, for some reason, having a lot of trouble with "l:",
including accidentally hitting the "Insert" key, which may explain
'"l:brought up' rather than '"l:" brought up'.
But, really, "punction" for "punctuation"?
As a bookseller, getting a case of books with duplicates
of some signatures, and others missing was, to borrow a
Britishism, enough to get you sectioned! We usually didn't
find out until angry customers brought them back.
I was very put out to find that after I'd waited for all three hardbacks
of the very fat _Baroque Cycle_ by Neal Stephenson, I started reading to
find duplicated signatures towards the end of book one. Of course the
hardback was then not in stock at the physical booksellers, having long
left the shelves.
Fortunately there was a bad scan of it on the Internet, which I judged
ethically fine to read. That was my first foray into ebooks, and later
into using abebooks to find a replacement hardback. Thanks for improving
my life, bad printer!
Somehow I currently have two good copies of book one in hardback, and no
bad one. I have forgotten how I managed to make it into this position.
I've also never completed the series, tailing off in book two twice now
despite enjoying every other Stephenson.
Yeah, there's a moral dilemma of sorts, isn't there?
On the one hand, recycling the defective copy is ... destroying a
book!
On the other hand, selling or donating a defective copy doesn't seem
entirely right either.
I /have/ recycled books. One was a book that literally fell apart when
I read it the second time (paperback with a particularly inadequate
binding) and found it not interesting enough to keep. Another was a
classic that was lacking the last third (which, clearly, had separated
from the rest of the paperback and gotten lost).
A defective book is, broadly, useless, if you can't read
it as it should be read - and if it's not repairable
without expending more effort and resources than just
replacing it. If a "signature" is missing, usually
because a wrong one is included, such as another part
duplicated... well, once I realised that my first copy of
Roger Zelazny's _Today We Choose Faces_ had that issue,
it became /slightly/ less confusing. I now believe that
the huge jump in setting partway through is intentional.
One of the many Burroughs series (ebook omnibuses) I have been
working my way through (I am currently in Tarzan which, with the lost
world of /Tarzan the Terrible/ and my current read, /Tarzan and the
Ant Men/, is beginning to look as much like Science Fiction as, say,
Pellucidar) contained a book that twice repeated a long section. But
once you got the end, a second time, the story clearly took off again
with nothing missing.

eBook problem? Or the scanned text? Who can say?
Post by Robert Carnegie
But they can't just give away the missing bits, that would
be open to abuse... perhaps allow some trustworthy charity
to print-on-demand that part?
A lesser fault in a book I think I got second hand is a
cover that proclaims and describes Michael Bond's
_Monsieur Pamplemousse On the Spot_, but actually
contains the earlier story simply called _Monsieur Pamplemousse_: the previous owner appears to have done
nothing about that, but then "previous owner" is an odd
concept itself: if you have a book, don't you, um...
go on having it? But in this case, maybe they did -
with the correct cover.
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."
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