Discussion:
AI as heroes
(too old to reply)
a***@gmail.com
2020-02-01 08:07:11 UTC
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In the transformation series by Asher there are multiple protagonists. But the story centers around Penny Royal, a rogue AI. I am on the second book in the series, so I am not sure how the story ends.

The AI has technical skills which no one possesses. Earlier it had killed indiscriminately, but now is seeking redemption. It is working with humans and the alien Pradors, to ensure peace.

While the story is interesting due to several factors: space travel, exotic weaponry, motivations of revenge and redemption - unfortunately it doesn't delve too deeply into the AI's innner workings.

Which SF novels have the most detailed and complex AIs? And what drives them. Do they primarily have human programmed goals, or have they modified themselves and and also focus on achieving their own objectives?

Abhinav Lal

"Life is amoral"
Lynn McGuire
2020-02-01 21:54:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by a***@gmail.com
In the transformation series by Asher there are multiple protagonists. But the story centers around Penny Royal, a rogue AI. I am on the second book in the series, so I am not sure how the story ends.
The AI has technical skills which no one possesses. Earlier it had killed indiscriminately, but now is seeking redemption. It is working with humans and the alien Pradors, to ensure peace.
While the story is interesting due to several factors: space travel, exotic weaponry, motivations of revenge and redemption - unfortunately it doesn't delve too deeply into the AI's innner workings.
Which SF novels have the most detailed and complex AIs? And what drives them. Do they primarily have human programmed goals, or have they modified themselves and and also focus on achieving their own objectives?
Abhinav Lal
"Life is amoral"
Please give us a URL for the book so we do not have to google it.

Lynn
Lynn McGuire
2020-02-01 21:58:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by a***@gmail.com
In the transformation series by Asher there are multiple protagonists. But the story centers around Penny Royal, a rogue AI. I am on the second book in the series, so I am not sure how the story ends.
The AI has technical skills which no one possesses. Earlier it had killed indiscriminately, but now is seeking redemption. It is working with humans and the alien Pradors, to ensure peace.
While the story is interesting due to several factors: space travel, exotic weaponry, motivations of revenge and redemption - unfortunately it doesn't delve too deeply into the AI's innner workings.
Which SF novels have the most detailed and complex AIs? And what drives them. Do they primarily have human programmed goals, or have they modified themselves and and also focus on achieving their own objectives?
Abhinav Lal
"Life is amoral"
There is always "The Ship Who Sang" by Anne McCaffrey:

https://www.amazon.com/Ship-Who-Sang-Novel-Brainship-ebook/dp/B01N2MW7VW/

Lynn
Kevrob
2020-02-02 03:38:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by a***@gmail.com
In the transformation series by Asher there are multiple protagonists. But the story centers around Penny Royal, a rogue AI. I am on the second book in the series, so I am not sure how the story ends.
The AI has technical skills which no one possesses. Earlier it had killed indiscriminately, but now is seeking redemption. It is working with humans and the alien Pradors, to ensure peace.
While the story is interesting due to several factors: space travel, exotic weaponry, motivations of revenge and redemption - unfortunately it doesn't delve too deeply into the AI's innner workings.
Which SF novels have the most detailed and complex AIs? And what drives them. Do they primarily have human programmed goals, or have they modified themselves and and also focus on achieving their own objectives?
Abhinav Lal
"Life is amoral"
https://www.amazon.com/Ship-Who-Sang-Novel-Brainship-ebook/dp/B01N2MW7VW/
Mycroft/"Mike" in "The Moon Is A Harsh Mistress" should count.
Robinette Broadhead in Pohl's "Gateway" series, once he's "vastened."

Kevin R
Johnny1A
2020-02-05 05:24:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kevrob
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by a***@gmail.com
In the transformation series by Asher there are multiple protagonists. But the story centers around Penny Royal, a rogue AI. I am on the second book in the series, so I am not sure how the story ends.
The AI has technical skills which no one possesses. Earlier it had killed indiscriminately, but now is seeking redemption. It is working with humans and the alien Pradors, to ensure peace.
While the story is interesting due to several factors: space travel, exotic weaponry, motivations of revenge and redemption - unfortunately it doesn't delve too deeply into the AI's innner workings.
Which SF novels have the most detailed and complex AIs? And what drives them. Do they primarily have human programmed goals, or have they modified themselves and and also focus on achieving their own objectives?
Abhinav Lal
"Life is amoral"
https://www.amazon.com/Ship-Who-Sang-Novel-Brainship-ebook/dp/B01N2MW7VW/
Mycroft/"Mike" in "The Moon Is A Harsh Mistress" should count.
Robinette Broadhead in Pohl's "Gateway" series, once he's "vastened."
Kevin R
But does an 'upload' count as an AI?
h***@gmail.com
2020-02-02 10:52:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by a***@gmail.com
In the transformation series by Asher there are multiple protagonists. But the story centers around Penny Royal, a rogue AI. I am on the second book in the series, so I am not sure how the story ends.
The AI has technical skills which no one possesses. Earlier it had killed indiscriminately, but now is seeking redemption. It is working with humans and the alien Pradors, to ensure peace.
While the story is interesting due to several factors: space travel, exotic weaponry, motivations of revenge and redemption - unfortunately it doesn't delve too deeply into the AI's innner workings.
Which SF novels have the most detailed and complex AIs? And what drives them. Do they primarily have human programmed goals, or have they modified themselves and and also focus on achieving their own objectives?
Abhinav Lal
"Life is amoral"
https://www.amazon.com/Ship-Who-Sang-Novel-Brainship-ebook/dp/B01N2MW7VW/
That's not an AI, that's a person controlling a ship
She's a cyborg
John Moreno
2020-02-09 20:54:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by a***@gmail.com
Which SF novels have the most detailed and complex AIs? And what drives
them. Do they primarily have
human programmed goals, or have they modified themselves and and also
focus on achieving their own objectives?
The Ship isn’t an AI, the Ship is a cyborg, a human integrated into the
ship to be the brain.
--
J. Moreno
Lynn McGuire
2020-02-11 02:23:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by John Moreno
Post by a***@gmail.com
Which SF novels have the most detailed and complex AIs? And what drives
them. Do they primarily have
human programmed goals, or have they modified themselves and and also
focus on achieving their own objectives?
The Ship isn’t an AI, the Ship is a cyborg, a human integrated into the
ship to be the brain.
Wasn't there an AI also in the spaceship, her dumb twin ? Or am I
remembering another story ?

Lynn
h***@gmail.com
2020-02-11 04:05:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by John Moreno
Post by a***@gmail.com
Which SF novels have the most detailed and complex AIs? And what drives
them. Do they primarily have
human programmed goals, or have they modified themselves and and also
focus on achieving their own objectives?
The Ship isn’t an AI, the Ship is a cyborg, a human integrated into the
ship to be the brain.
Wasn't there an AI also in the spaceship, her dumb twin ? Or am I
remembering another story ?
My recollection is that everything in the ship was run through the shell person.
Dorothy J Heydt
2020-02-11 06:39:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by h***@gmail.com
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by a***@gmail.com
Which SF novels have the most detailed and complex AIs? And what drives
them. Do they primarily have
human programmed goals, or have they modified themselves and and also
focus on achieving their own objectives?
The Ship isn’t an AI, the Ship is a cyborg, a human integrated into the
ship to be the brain.
Wasn't there an AI also in the spaceship, her dumb twin ? Or am I
remembering another story ?
My recollection is that everything in the ship was run through the shell person.
Accompanied by her ambulatory companion.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/
Dorothy J Heydt
2020-02-11 06:39:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by a***@gmail.com
Which SF novels have the most detailed and complex AIs? And what drives
them. Do they primarily have
human programmed goals, or have they modified themselves and and also
focus on achieving their own objectives?
The Ship isn’t an AI, the Ship is a cyborg, a human integrated into the
ship to be the brain.
Wasn't there an AI also in the spaceship, her dumb twin ? Or am I
remembering another story ?
Not ... really. The "brain"-ship is accompanied by an
able-bodied human, known as a "brawn." After losing one and
breaking up amicably with another, Helga acquires a brawn whom
she can love and be loved by.

If you read enough McCaffrey, you can figure out what public
figure she had a crush on. WHY she had a crush on that
particular person, God and Robert Browning might know.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/
Ted Nolan <tednolan>
2020-02-11 07:02:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by a***@gmail.com
Which SF novels have the most detailed and complex AIs? And what drives
them. Do they primarily have
human programmed goals, or have they modified themselves and and also
focus on achieving their own objectives?
The Ship isn’t an AI, the Ship is a cyborg, a human integrated into the
ship to be the brain.
Wasn't there an AI also in the spaceship, her dumb twin ? Or am I
remembering another story ?
Not ... really. The "brain"-ship is accompanied by an
able-bodied human, known as a "brawn." After losing one and
breaking up amicably with another, Helga acquires a brawn whom
she can love and be loved by.
If you read enough McCaffrey, you can figure out what public
figure she had a crush on. WHY she had a crush on that
particular person, God and Robert Browning might know.
Hmm. Was the "dumb twin" story maybe Palmer's _Emergence_?
--
columbiaclosings.com
What's not in Columbia anymore..
Robert Woodward
2020-02-11 17:56:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by a***@gmail.com
Which SF novels have the most detailed and complex AIs? And what drives
them. Do they primarily have
human programmed goals, or have they modified themselves and and also
focus on achieving their own objectives?
The Ship isn’t an AI, the Ship is a cyborg, a human integrated into the
ship to be the brain.
Wasn't there an AI also in the spaceship, her dumb twin ? Or am I
remembering another story ?
Not ... really. The "brain"-ship is accompanied by an
able-bodied human, known as a "brawn." After losing one and
breaking up amicably with another, Helga acquires a brawn whom
she can love and be loved by.
If you read enough McCaffrey, you can figure out what public
figure she had a crush on. WHY she had a crush on that
particular person, God and Robert Browning might know.
Hmm. Was the "dumb twin" story maybe Palmer's _Emergence_?
If it was a macaw, yes.
--
"We have advanced to new and surprising levels of bafflement."
Imperial Auditor Miles Vorkosigan describes progress in _Komarr_.
‹-----------------------------------------------------
Robert Woodward ***@drizzle.com
Lynn McGuire
2020-02-11 20:41:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by a***@gmail.com
Which SF novels have the most detailed and complex AIs? And what drives
them. Do they primarily have
human programmed goals, or have they modified themselves and and also
focus on achieving their own objectives?
The Ship isn’t an AI, the Ship is a cyborg, a human integrated into the
ship to be the brain.
Wasn't there an AI also in the spaceship, her dumb twin ? Or am I
remembering another story ?
Not ... really. The "brain"-ship is accompanied by an
able-bodied human, known as a "brawn." After losing one and
breaking up amicably with another, Helga acquires a brawn whom
she can love and be loved by.
If you read enough McCaffrey, you can figure out what public
figure she had a crush on. WHY she had a crush on that
particular person, God and Robert Browning might know.
Hmm. Was the "dumb twin" story maybe Palmer's _Emergence_?
No, but the concept is close except those are both live entities.

Lynn
Moriarty
2020-02-11 20:38:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by John Moreno
Post by a***@gmail.com
Which SF novels have the most detailed and complex AIs? And what drives
them. Do they primarily have
human programmed goals, or have they modified themselves and and also
focus on achieving their own objectives?
The Ship isn’t an AI, the Ship is a cyborg, a human integrated into the
ship to be the brain.
Wasn't there an AI also in the spaceship, her dumb twin ? Or am I
remembering another story ?
Not ... really. The "brain"-ship is accompanied by an
able-bodied human, known as a "brawn." After losing one and
breaking up amicably with another, Helga acquires a brawn whom
she can love and be loved by.
If you read enough McCaffrey, you can figure out what public
figure she had a crush on. WHY she had a crush on that
particular person, God and Robert Browning might know.
I've read all the McCaffrey I'm ever going to read. (The first mumble Dragon-noun books.) Care to share who?

-Moriarty
Lynn McGuire
2020-02-11 20:42:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by a***@gmail.com
Which SF novels have the most detailed and complex AIs? And what drives
them. Do they primarily have
human programmed goals, or have they modified themselves and and also
focus on achieving their own objectives?
The Ship isn’t an AI, the Ship is a cyborg, a human integrated into the
ship to be the brain.
Wasn't there an AI also in the spaceship, her dumb twin ? Or am I
remembering another story ?
Not ... really. The "brain"-ship is accompanied by an
able-bodied human, known as a "brawn." After losing one and
breaking up amicably with another, Helga acquires a brawn whom
she can love and be loved by.
If you read enough McCaffrey, you can figure out what public
figure she had a crush on. WHY she had a crush on that
particular person, God and Robert Browning might know.
I read all her books for some reason (I liked them all until the Rowan
series) and have no idea who that person is.

Lynn
Joseph Hurtgen
2020-02-02 02:47:08 UTC
Permalink
My favorite AI novel is Neuromancer, mostly because the AI is an understated shadow character, though central to the story.
Mike Dworetsky
2020-02-02 10:40:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by a***@gmail.com
In the transformation series by Asher there are multiple
protagonists. But the story centers around Penny Royal, a rogue AI.
I am on the second book in the series, so I am not sure how the story
ends.
The AI has technical skills which no one possesses. Earlier it had
killed indiscriminately, but now is seeking redemption. It is
working with humans and the alien Pradors, to ensure peace.
While the story is interesting due to several factors: space travel,
exotic weaponry, motivations of revenge and redemption -
unfortunately it doesn't delve too deeply into the AI's innner
workings.
Which SF novels have the most detailed and complex AIs? And what
drives them. Do they primarily have human programmed goals, or have
they modified themselves and and also focus on achieving their own
objectives?
Abhinav Lal
"Life is amoral"
R. Daneel Olivaw (R is for "robot") in Asimov's Caves of Steel and following
novels (e.g., The Naked Sun) with human detective Lije Bailey. Olivaw
adheres to the Three Laws of Robotics.
--
Mike Dworetsky

(Remove pants sp*mbl*ck to reply)
Lynn McGuire
2020-02-03 06:10:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mike Dworetsky
Post by a***@gmail.com
In the transformation series by Asher there are multiple
protagonists.  But the story centers around Penny Royal, a rogue AI.
I am on the second book in the series, so I am not sure how the story
ends.
The AI has technical skills which no one possesses.  Earlier it had
killed indiscriminately, but now is seeking redemption.  It is
working with humans and the alien Pradors, to ensure peace.
While the story is interesting due to several factors: space travel,
exotic weaponry, motivations of revenge and redemption -
unfortunately it doesn't delve too deeply into the AI's innner
workings.
Which SF novels have the most detailed and complex AIs?  And what
drives them.  Do they primarily have human programmed goals, or have
they modified themselves and and also focus on achieving their own
objectives?
Abhinav Lal
"Life is amoral"
R. Daneel Olivaw (R is for "robot") in Asimov's Caves of Steel and
following novels (e.g., The Naked Sun) with human detective Lije
Bailey.  Olivaw adheres to the Three Laws of Robotics.
+1

Lynn
Johnny1A
2020-02-05 05:31:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mike Dworetsky
Post by a***@gmail.com
In the transformation series by Asher there are multiple
protagonists. But the story centers around Penny Royal, a rogue AI.
I am on the second book in the series, so I am not sure how the story
ends.
The AI has technical skills which no one possesses. Earlier it had
killed indiscriminately, but now is seeking redemption. It is
working with humans and the alien Pradors, to ensure peace.
While the story is interesting due to several factors: space travel,
exotic weaponry, motivations of revenge and redemption -
unfortunately it doesn't delve too deeply into the AI's innner
workings.
Which SF novels have the most detailed and complex AIs? And what
drives them. Do they primarily have human programmed goals, or have
they modified themselves and and also focus on achieving their own
objectives?
Abhinav Lal
"Life is amoral"
R. Daneel Olivaw (R is for "robot") in Asimov's Caves of Steel and following
novels (e.g., The Naked Sun) with human detective Lije Bailey. Olivaw
adheres to the Three Laws of Robotics.
--
Mike Dworetsky
Though in later stories, R. Daneel's status as a 'hero' becomes highly debatable, and highly debated, by the fans.

One of my favorite 'AI as hero/protagonist' stories is 'Sun Up', by A.A.Jackson and Howard Waldrop. It centers on the efforts of an AI-manned starship to survive a coming supernova.

SPOILER:

The ship is a Bussard ramscoop vessel, sent out to study a red giant. After it settles into orbit, it realizes that the star is actually within a year or two of reaching the supernova stage. The ship can't get back up to ramscoop speed on its own, it needs the booster rocket stage that's still on its way out from Sol, and the AI realizes that the star will blow before its booster can arrive.

The story follows the efforts of the AI to extricate itself from this little jam...
h***@gmail.com
2020-02-02 11:16:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by a***@gmail.com
In the transformation series by Asher there are multiple protagonists. But the story centers around Penny Royal, a rogue AI. I am on the second book in the series, so I am not sure how the story ends.
The AI has technical skills which no one possesses. Earlier it had killed indiscriminately, but now is seeking redemption. It is working with humans and the alien Pradors, to ensure peace.
While the story is interesting due to several factors: space travel, exotic weaponry, motivations of revenge and redemption - unfortunately it doesn't delve too deeply into the AI's innner workings.
Which SF novels have the most detailed and complex AIs? And what drives them. Do they primarily have human programmed goals, or have they modified themselves and and also focus on achieving their own objectives?
There's a lot more supporting AI characters than main characters.
A fair amount of Heinlein had AI characters, more in his later stuff
The Moon is a Harsh Mistress
Time Enough For Love
all his stuff from The Number of Beast until he died apart from Job

Banks' The Culture Series has a lot of AI characters

A lot of series with robots count

The HitchHikers Guide to the Galaxy and many of the sequels

Stross has done a few
Accelerando (although heroes would be stretching things mostly)
Glasshouse (I think, it's been a while)

Singularity Sky and Iron Sunrise (again the hero bit might be a stretch)
Robert Carnegie
2020-02-02 12:21:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by h***@gmail.com
Post by a***@gmail.com
In the transformation series by Asher there are multiple protagonists. But the story centers around Penny Royal, a rogue AI. I am on the second book in the series, so I am not sure how the story ends.
The AI has technical skills which no one possesses. Earlier it had killed indiscriminately, but now is seeking redemption. It is working with humans and the alien Pradors, to ensure peace.
While the story is interesting due to several factors: space travel, exotic weaponry, motivations of revenge and redemption - unfortunately it doesn't delve too deeply into the AI's innner workings.
Which SF novels have the most detailed and complex AIs? And what drives them. Do they primarily have human programmed goals, or have they modified themselves and and also focus on achieving their own objectives?
There's a lot more supporting AI characters than main characters.
A fair amount of Heinlein had AI characters, more in his later stuff
The Moon is a Harsh Mistress
Time Enough For Love
all his stuff from The Number of Beast until he died apart from Job
Banks' The Culture Series has a lot of AI characters
A lot of series with robots count
The HitchHikers Guide to the Galaxy and many of the sequels
Stross has done a few
Accelerando (although heroes would be stretching things mostly)
Glasshouse (I think, it's been a while)
Singularity Sky and Iron Sunrise (again the hero bit might be a stretch)
You're pushing it with _Hitchhiker_. Marvin the robot
claims to have a brain the size of a planet but is rarely
portrayed as having somewhere to keep such a thing...
he's built to be "manically depressed", which is a
misunderstanding, and I suppose he copes with this
admirably. Eddie seems rather unprofessional,
Hactar had /one/ job... (so does the drinks
dispenser... excuse me, drink dispenser...
and the lift.) The Guide itself eventually has
a mission...
Kevrob
2020-02-05 02:35:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by h***@gmail.com
Post by a***@gmail.com
In the transformation series by Asher there are multiple protagonists. But the story centers around Penny Royal, a rogue AI. I am on the second book in the series, so I am not sure how the story ends.
The AI has technical skills which no one possesses. Earlier it had killed indiscriminately, but now is seeking redemption. It is working with humans and the alien Pradors, to ensure peace.
While the story is interesting due to several factors: space travel, exotic weaponry, motivations of revenge and redemption - unfortunately it doesn't delve too deeply into the AI's innner workings.
Which SF novels have the most detailed and complex AIs? And what drives them. Do they primarily have human programmed goals, or have they modified themselves and and also focus on achieving their own objectives?
There's a lot more supporting AI characters than main characters.
A fair amount of Heinlein had AI characters, more in his later stuff
The Moon is a Harsh Mistress
Time Enough For Love
all his stuff from The Number of Beast until he died apart from Job
Banks' The Culture Series has a lot of AI characters
A lot of series with robots count
The HitchHikers Guide to the Galaxy and many of the sequels
Stross has done a few
Accelerando (although heroes would be stretching things mostly)
Glasshouse (I think, it's been a while)
Singularity Sky and Iron Sunrise (again the hero bit might be a stretch)
You're pushing it with _Hitchhiker_. Marvin the robot
claims to have a brain the size of a planet but is rarely
portrayed as having somewhere to keep such a thing...
he's built to be "manically depressed", which is a
misunderstanding, and I suppose he copes with this
admirably. Eddie seems rather unprofessional,
Hactar had /one/ job... (so does the drinks
dispenser... excuse me, drink dispenser...
and the lift.) The Guide itself eventually has
a mission...
Many of the h2g2 AIs are Artificially Insufferable.

--
Kevin R
a.a #2310
p***@hotmail.com
2020-02-02 19:01:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by a***@gmail.com
In the transformation series by Asher there are multiple protagonists. But the story centers around Penny Royal, a rogue AI. I am on the second book in the series, so I am not sure how the story ends.
The AI has technical skills which no one possesses. Earlier it had killed indiscriminately, but now is seeking redemption. It is working with humans and the alien Pradors, to ensure peace.
While the story is interesting due to several factors: space travel, exotic weaponry, motivations of revenge and redemption - unfortunately it doesn't delve too deeply into the AI's innner workings.
Which SF novels have the most detailed and complex AIs? And what drives them. Do they primarily have human programmed goals, or have they modified themselves and and also focus on achieving their own objectives?
In David Weber's _Mutineer's Moon_ and _Armageddon Inheritance_ the self aware
spacecraft Dahak is a major character who initiates the story by its actions.
David Weber has written that Dahak was likely inspired by the autonomous
ship from Christopher Anvil's Interstellar Patrol series.

The self-aware armored fighting vehicles in Keith Laumer's Bolo stories
are full characters and the stories are often told from their viewpoint
in first person. They sometimes go beyond their specific orders when
circumstances render those orders obsolete. Interestingly, the Israeli
Army has since institutionalized something like this; their field
officers are now required to use their own initiative when it becomes
evident that orders from higher up do not reflect the situation on
the ground.

Peter Wezeman
anti-social Darwinist
Dimensional Traveler
2020-02-02 21:02:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by p***@hotmail.com
Post by a***@gmail.com
In the transformation series by Asher there are multiple protagonists. But the story centers around Penny Royal, a rogue AI. I am on the second book in the series, so I am not sure how the story ends.
The AI has technical skills which no one possesses. Earlier it had killed indiscriminately, but now is seeking redemption. It is working with humans and the alien Pradors, to ensure peace.
While the story is interesting due to several factors: space travel, exotic weaponry, motivations of revenge and redemption - unfortunately it doesn't delve too deeply into the AI's innner workings.
Which SF novels have the most detailed and complex AIs? And what drives them. Do they primarily have human programmed goals, or have they modified themselves and and also focus on achieving their own objectives?
In David Weber's _Mutineer's Moon_ and _Armageddon Inheritance_ the self aware
spacecraft Dahak is a major character who initiates the story by its actions.
David Weber has written that Dahak was likely inspired by the autonomous
ship from Christopher Anvil's Interstellar Patrol series.
The self-aware armored fighting vehicles in Keith Laumer's Bolo stories
are full characters and the stories are often told from their viewpoint
in first person. They sometimes go beyond their specific orders when
circumstances render those orders obsolete. Interestingly, the Israeli
Army has since institutionalized something like this; their field
officers are now required to use their own initiative when it becomes
evident that orders from higher up do not reflect the situation on
the ground.
That's not unique to Israel or even new. The US Army has for decades
had a "Commander's Intent" as part of issuing orders telling sub-units
what the intent of the operation is so if something goes SNAFU the
junior officers know why they are assigned something and can adjust as
required. And IIRC the French have a medal specifically for those who
win a battle by _disobeying_ a superior's orders.
--
"You need to believe in things that aren't true. How else can they become?"
p***@hotmail.com
2020-02-03 06:03:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dimensional Traveler
Post by p***@hotmail.com
Post by a***@gmail.com
In the transformation series by Asher there are multiple protagonists. But the story centers around Penny Royal, a rogue AI. I am on the second book in the series, so I am not sure how the story ends.
The AI has technical skills which no one possesses. Earlier it had killed indiscriminately, but now is seeking redemption. It is working with humans and the alien Pradors, to ensure peace.
While the story is interesting due to several factors: space travel, exotic weaponry, motivations of revenge and redemption - unfortunately it doesn't delve too deeply into the AI's innner workings.
Which SF novels have the most detailed and complex AIs? And what drives them. Do they primarily have human programmed goals, or have they modified themselves and and also focus on achieving their own objectives?
In David Weber's _Mutineer's Moon_ and _Armageddon Inheritance_ the self aware
spacecraft Dahak is a major character who initiates the story by its actions.
David Weber has written that Dahak was likely inspired by the autonomous
ship from Christopher Anvil's Interstellar Patrol series.
The self-aware armored fighting vehicles in Keith Laumer's Bolo stories
are full characters and the stories are often told from their viewpoint
in first person. They sometimes go beyond their specific orders when
circumstances render those orders obsolete. Interestingly, the Israeli
Army has since institutionalized something like this; their field
officers are now required to use their own initiative when it becomes
evident that orders from higher up do not reflect the situation on
the ground.
That's not unique to Israel or even new. The US Army has for decades
had a "Commander's Intent" as part of issuing orders telling sub-units
what the intent of the operation is so if something goes SNAFU the
junior officers know why they are assigned something and can adjust as
required. And IIRC the French have a medal specifically for those who
win a battle by _disobeying_ a superior's orders.
I have a vague memory that the Israelis implemented this doctrine
following the 1973 Yom Kippur war.

Peter Wezemananti-social Darwinist
Paul S Person
2020-02-03 18:54:43 UTC
Permalink
On Sun, 2 Feb 2020 13:02:48 -0800, Dimensional Traveler
<snippo>
Post by Dimensional Traveler
Post by p***@hotmail.com
The self-aware armored fighting vehicles in Keith Laumer's Bolo stories
are full characters and the stories are often told from their viewpoint
in first person. They sometimes go beyond their specific orders when
circumstances render those orders obsolete. Interestingly, the Israeli
Army has since institutionalized something like this; their field
officers are now required to use their own initiative when it becomes
evident that orders from higher up do not reflect the situation on
the ground.
That's not unique to Israel or even new. The US Army has for decades
had a "Commander's Intent" as part of issuing orders telling sub-units
what the intent of the operation is so if something goes SNAFU the
junior officers know why they are assigned something and can adjust as
required. And IIRC the French have a medal specifically for those who
win a battle by _disobeying_ a superior's orders.
The difference between an army that requires exact obedience to orders
and one that allows for low-level intiative is reflected in many
wargames (paper and cardboard, see Decision Games for examples)
dealing with WWII on the Eastern Front.

It reflects the slow death of a long-held military tradtion, where the
officers were upper class and so knew everything and the rest of the
army was not and so did not.
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."
Dorothy J Heydt
2020-02-02 21:43:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by a***@gmail.com
Post by a***@gmail.com
In the transformation series by Asher there are multiple protagonists.
But the story centers around Penny Royal, a rogue AI. I am on the
second book in the series, so I am not sure how the story ends.
Post by a***@gmail.com
The AI has technical skills which no one possesses. Earlier it had
killed indiscriminately, but now is seeking redemption. It is working
with humans and the alien Pradors, to ensure peace.
Post by a***@gmail.com
While the story is interesting due to several factors: space travel,
exotic weaponry, motivations of revenge and redemption - unfortunately
it doesn't delve too deeply into the AI's innner workings.
Post by a***@gmail.com
Which SF novels have the most detailed and complex AIs? And what
drives them. Do they primarily have human programmed goals, or have
they modified themselves and and also focus on achieving their own
objectives?
In David Weber's _Mutineer's Moon_ and _Armageddon Inheritance_ the self aware
spacecraft Dahak is a major character who initiates the story by its actions.
David Weber has written that Dahak was likely inspired by the autonomous
ship from Christopher Anvil's Interstellar Patrol series.
The self-aware armored fighting vehicles in Keith Laumer's Bolo stories
are full characters and the stories are often told from their viewpoint
in first person. They sometimes go beyond their specific orders when
circumstances render those orders obsolete. Interestingly, the Israeli
Army has since institutionalized something like this; their field
officers are now required to use their own initiative when it becomes
evident that orders from higher up do not reflect the situation on
the ground.
Are we still talking about AIs only in SF novels? Because there
are a lot of them in the webcomic _Questionable Content;_ I refer
particularly to the hive-mind AI with many bodies, whom we tend
to call Spookybot around here, but who have recently adopted the
[nick]name "Yay." Powerful as all-get-out, ethical, by turns
frightening and friendly.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/
Joy Beeson
2020-02-03 00:07:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Are we still talking about AIs only in SF novels? Because there
are a lot of them in the webcomic _Questionable Content;_ I refer
particularly to the hive-mind AI with many bodies, whom we tend
to call Spookybot around here, but who have recently adopted the
[nick]name "Yay." Powerful as all-get-out, ethical, by turns
frightening and friendly.
I'm not sure whether Florence in "freefall"

http://freefall.purrsia.com/default.htm

is an AI or a cyborg wolf.

But she definitely counts as a hero -- though in the current arc, all
she's doing is going to meet the parents of her intended.

Schlock Mercenary
https://www.schlockmercenary.com/
features more A.I.s than the natural-born variety -- and they all seem
to be one-offs, unlike the Gavins. ("Why are we featuring this boring
guy on our show?" "Because he likes to watch himself on television,
and that really bumps up our ratings.")

But it's not a good time to jump in with the current strip -- a
zillion loose ends are being tied up in very complicated knots.
--
Joy Beeson
joy beeson at comcast dot net
http://wlweather.net/PAGEJOY/
J. Clarke
2020-02-03 01:09:40 UTC
Permalink
On Sun, 02 Feb 2020 19:07:15 -0500, Joy Beeson
Post by Joy Beeson
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Are we still talking about AIs only in SF novels? Because there
are a lot of them in the webcomic _Questionable Content;_ I refer
particularly to the hive-mind AI with many bodies, whom we tend
to call Spookybot around here, but who have recently adopted the
[nick]name "Yay." Powerful as all-get-out, ethical, by turns
frightening and friendly.
I'm not sure whether Florence in "freefall"
http://freefall.purrsia.com/default.htm
is an AI or a cyborg wolf.
That's a good question. The impression I get is that she's more akin
to an Uplifted critter from Brin, but then she has that pesky remote
control and off switch, and "Direct Orders" work on her as long as the
pecking order is honored.
Post by Joy Beeson
But she definitely counts as a hero -- though in the current arc, all
she's doing is going to meet the parents of her intended.
An act of courage in itself. Especially when Sam is part of the
entourage.
Post by Joy Beeson
Schlock Mercenary
https://www.schlockmercenary.com/
features more A.I.s than the natural-born variety -- and they all seem
to be one-offs, unlike the Gavins. ("Why are we featuring this boring
guy on our show?" "Because he likes to watch himself on television,
and that really bumps up our ratings.")
But it's not a good time to jump in with the current strip -- a
zillion loose ends are being tied up in very complicated knots.
Dorothy J Heydt
2020-02-03 01:50:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Joy Beeson
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Are we still talking about AIs only in SF novels? Because there
are a lot of them in the webcomic _Questionable Content;_ I refer
particularly to the hive-mind AI with many bodies, whom we tend
to call Spookybot around here, but who have recently adopted the
[nick]name "Yay." Powerful as all-get-out, ethical, by turns
frightening and friendly.
I'm not sure whether Florence in "freefall"
http://freefall.purrsia.com/default.htm
is an AI or a cyborg wolf.
She is specifically defined as an AI, just like a robot. Civil
rights for AIs are one of the main themes in that comic.
Post by Joy Beeson
But she definitely counts as a hero -- though in the current arc, all
she's doing is going to meet the parents of her intended.
Oh, yes. The difficulties she has overcome are many. She says
in Friday's strip, "There's a remote that literally turns me
off."
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/
Michael Ikeda
2020-02-03 23:12:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Joy Beeson
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Are we still talking about AIs only in SF novels? Because
there are a lot of them in the webcomic _Questionable
Content;_ I refer particularly to the hive-mind AI with many
bodies, whom we tend to call Spookybot around here, but who
have recently adopted the [nick]name "Yay." Powerful as
all-get-out, ethical, by turns frightening and friendly.
I'm not sure whether Florence in "freefall"
http://freefall.purrsia.com/default.htm
is an AI or a cyborg wolf.
She is specifically defined as an AI, just like a robot. Civil
rights for AIs are one of the main themes in that comic.
Post by Joy Beeson
But she definitely counts as a hero -- though in the current
arc, all she's doing is going to meet the parents of her
intended.
Oh, yes. The difficulties she has overcome are many. She says
in Friday's strip, "There's a remote that literally turns me
off."
The AI in Naomi Kritzer's novel "Catfishing on Catnet" (and the short
story "Cat Pictures, Please") is benevolent to the best of their
ability (which is mostly quite good, although they aren't perfect).

(The AI is a major supporting character in the novel and the main
character in the short story.)
David Goldfarb
2020-02-05 02:08:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by Michael Ikeda
The AI in Naomi Kritzer's novel "Catfishing on Catnet" (and the short
story "Cat Pictures, Please") is benevolent to the best of their
ability (which is mostly quite good, although they aren't perfect).
(The AI is a major supporting character in the novel and the main
character in the short story.)
Spoilers for _Catfishing on CatNet_.
















There are some strong hints that the AI from the short story and the
AI in the novel are not one and the same.
--
David Goldfarb |"Given enough time and the right audience,
***@gmail.com | the darkest of secrets scum over into
***@ocf.berkeley.edu | mere curiosities."
| -- Neil Gaiman, _Sandman_ #53
Peter Trei
2020-02-05 04:54:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Goldfarb
Post by Michael Ikeda
The AI in Naomi Kritzer's novel "Catfishing on Catnet" (and the short
story "Cat Pictures, Please") is benevolent to the best of their
ability (which is mostly quite good, although they aren't perfect).
(The AI is a major supporting character in the novel and the main
character in the short story.)
Spoilers for _Catfishing on CatNet_.
There are some strong hints that the AI from the short story and the
AI in the novel are not one and the same.
In the just concluded (and superb) series 'The Good Place', the "Janet"
character starts out as little better than a walking, talking Alexa device,
but gradually develops a much more human personality over four seasons.

pt
Jaimie Vandenbergh
2020-02-06 09:50:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Trei
In the just concluded (and superb) series 'The Good Place', the "Janet"
character starts out as little better than a walking, talking Alexa device,
but gradually develops a much more human personality over four seasons.
Was the name referring to the UK Joint Academic Network aka "JANET", at all?
Doesn't sound like it from the above - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JANET -
but it was the first tech association that name gives me.

Cheers - Jaimie
--
When one door closes another door opens; but we so often look so
long and so regretfully upon the closed door, that we do not see
the ones which open for us. - Alexander Graham Bell
Lynn McGuire
2020-02-03 06:12:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by p***@hotmail.com
Post by a***@gmail.com
In the transformation series by Asher there are multiple protagonists. But the story centers around Penny Royal, a rogue AI. I am on the second book in the series, so I am not sure how the story ends.
The AI has technical skills which no one possesses. Earlier it had killed indiscriminately, but now is seeking redemption. It is working with humans and the alien Pradors, to ensure peace.
While the story is interesting due to several factors: space travel, exotic weaponry, motivations of revenge and redemption - unfortunately it doesn't delve too deeply into the AI's innner workings.
Which SF novels have the most detailed and complex AIs? And what drives them. Do they primarily have human programmed goals, or have they modified themselves and and also focus on achieving their own objectives?
In David Weber's _Mutineer's Moon_ and _Armageddon Inheritance_ the self aware
spacecraft Dahak is a major character who initiates the story by its actions.
David Weber has written that Dahak was likely inspired by the autonomous
ship from Christopher Anvil's Interstellar Patrol series.
The self-aware armored fighting vehicles in Keith Laumer's Bolo stories
are full characters and the stories are often told from their viewpoint
in first person. They sometimes go beyond their specific orders when
circumstances render those orders obsolete. Interestingly, the Israeli
Army has since institutionalized something like this; their field
officers are now required to use their own initiative when it becomes
evident that orders from higher up do not reflect the situation on
the ground.
Peter Wezeman
anti-social Darwinist
Dahak is awesome !

Lynn
f***@gmail.com
2020-02-03 06:28:19 UTC
Permalink
Greetings all,

Iain M. Bank's Culture novels include plenty of AIs, some of which (IIRC) actually enjoy killing humans stupid enough to take them on. I'm vaguely remembering an AI controlling or actually inhabiting something called a knife missile.

When they're not killing people the Culture AIs are largely devoted to keeping their human pets happy, and preventing them from killing each other.

Regards
Frank
Titus G
2020-02-04 03:23:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by f***@gmail.com
Greetings all,
Iain M. Bank's Culture novels include plenty of AIs, some of which (IIRC) actually enjoy killing humans stupid enough to take them on. I'm vaguely remembering an AI controlling or actually inhabiting something called a knife missile.
When they're not killing people the Culture AIs are largely devoted to keeping their human pets happy, and preventing them from killing each other.
Regards
Frank
Co-incidentally, yesterday I read Legale, a very short story by Vernor
Vinge where AI's are heroic enough to improve a trolley problem.
k***@outlook.com
2020-02-13 14:50:14 UTC
Permalink
There is an AI in man-kzin wars who performs an important mission. It isn't a major character. The humans don't know why they are unreliable. Seeing the internal dialog of it, it turns out the massive intelligence can't take sitting around waiting, so they create their own complex fantasy worlds and stop communicating. This one heroically wakes up long enough to do the job.

Nils
p***@hotmail.com
2020-02-13 15:36:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by k***@outlook.com
There is an AI in man-kzin wars who performs an important mission. It isn't a major character. The humans don't know why they are unreliable. Seeing the internal dialog of it, it turns out the massive intelligence can't take sitting around waiting, so they create their own complex fantasy worlds and stop communicating. This one heroically wakes up long enough to do the job.
Larry Niven used a similar idea in his Draco Tavern short story
_The Schumann Computer_.

Peter Wezeman
anti-social Darwinist

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