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[tor dot com] Five Works About Preserving or Destroying Books
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j***@panix.com
2021-08-30 15:12:45 UTC
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Five Works About Preserving or Destroying Books
https://www.tor.com/2021/08/30/five-works-about-preserving-or-destroying-books/
Dorothy J Heydt
2021-08-30 18:05:46 UTC
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Post by j***@panix.com
Five Works About Preserving or Destroying Books
https://www.tor.com/2021/08/30/five-works-about-preserving-or-destroying-books/
Another candidate might be McGuire and Piper's _Revolt in 2140_,
about which I remember very little, except that Literates (with a
capital L) are a privileged minority and the Illiterates are
interested in wiping them out. And their little books, too.

It was published as an Ace Double, the B side of "Cyril Judd"'s
_Gunner Cade_. It had a cover featuring a menacing a menacing
armed man with an armband? flag? something representing a
crossed-out pen and notepad.

I found a thumbnail of both covers, but I can't expand it enough
to see what he's got besides weaponry and a scowl.

http://www.isfdb.org/cgi-bin/pl.cgi?16205
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/
Ted Nolan <tednolan>
2021-08-30 18:47:14 UTC
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Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by j***@panix.com
Five Works About Preserving or Destroying Books
https://www.tor.com/2021/08/30/five-works-about-preserving-or-destroying-books/
Another candidate might be McGuire and Piper's _Revolt in 2140_,
about which I remember very little, except that Literates (with a
capital L) are a privileged minority and the Illiterates are
interested in wiping them out. And their little books, too.
It was published as an Ace Double, the B side of "Cyril Judd"'s
_Gunner Cade_. It had a cover featuring a menacing a menacing
armed man with an armband? flag? something representing a
crossed-out pen and notepad.
I found a thumbnail of both covers, but I can't expand it enough
to see what he's got besides weaponry and a scowl.
http://www.isfdb.org/cgi-bin/pl.cgi?16205
There was a story I read years ago set in a future where all books,
except those carefully hidden, had been destroyed. After the fall
of the anti-book regime, the surviving books were all massively copied
and venerated.

I completely forget the main plot after that, but there was a funny bit
of business between two characters that went something like this:

I mean, really Bob, I think everyone knows on some level
that _Punish Me With Scorpions_ was not hidden in the
floorboards to preserve its pungent philosophical analysis
of the problem on pain in a universe with a caring God, no
matter what they say in public.
--
columbiaclosings.com
What's not in Columbia anymore..
Andrew Love
2021-09-01 21:52:26 UTC
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Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
There was a story I read years ago set in a future where all books,
except those carefully hidden, had been destroyed. After the fall
of the anti-book regime, the surviving books were all massively copied
and venerated.
I completely forget the main plot after that, but there was a funny bit
I mean, really Bob, I think everyone knows on some level
that _Punish Me With Scorpions_ was not hidden in the
floorboards to preserve its pungent philosophical analysis
of the problem on pain in a universe with a caring God, no
matter what they say in public.
--
This rings a bell - I think I read it in Analog? Book aficionados of the future were obsessed with getting the same old detective novels in new formats and character sets, but no one seemed to write actual new books, right?
Ted Nolan <tednolan>
2021-09-01 21:59:59 UTC
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Post by Andrew Love
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
There was a story I read years ago set in a future where all books,
except those carefully hidden, had been destroyed. After the fall
of the anti-book regime, the surviving books were all massively copied
and venerated.
I completely forget the main plot after that, but there was a funny bit
I mean, really Bob, I think everyone knows on some level
that _Punish Me With Scorpions_ was not hidden in the
floorboards to preserve its pungent philosophical analysis
of the problem on pain in a universe with a caring God, no
matter what they say in public.
--
This rings a bell - I think I read it in Analog? Book aficionados of
the future were obsessed with getting the same old detective novels in
new formats and character sets, but no one seemed to write actual new
books, right?
As I said, I have basically no memory of the main plot, but yeah, it probably
would have been in Analog as I was a subscriber and that was most of the
short fiction I got after starting work.
--
columbiaclosings.com
What's not in Columbia anymore..
Jack Bohn
2021-09-03 17:18:46 UTC
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Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
There was a story I read years ago set in a future where all books,
except those carefully hidden, had been destroyed. After the fall
of the anti-book regime, the surviving books were all massively copied
and venerated.
I completely forget the main plot after that, but there was a funny bit
I mean, really Bob, I think everyone knows on some level
that _Punish Me With Scorpions_ was not hidden in the
floorboards to preserve its pungent philosophical analysis
of the problem on pain in a universe with a caring God, no
matter what they say in public.
--
This rings a bell - I think I read it in Analog? Book aficionados of the future were obsessed with getting the same old detective novels in new formats and character sets, but no one seemed to write actual new books, right?
For years I've had the title "Pixie Dixon and the Case of the Haunted Playpen" stuck in my mind. This may be the only time it is of use!

Our viewpoint character had taught himself to read, and write -if only in block letters- from signs around that just hadn't been taken down. He produced the impressive demonstration "your lunch is radioactive".
--
-Jack
J. Clarke
2021-09-03 18:15:32 UTC
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Post by Andrew Love
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
There was a story I read years ago set in a future where all books,
except those carefully hidden, had been destroyed. After the fall
of the anti-book regime, the surviving books were all massively copied
and venerated.
I completely forget the main plot after that, but there was a funny bit
I mean, really Bob, I think everyone knows on some level
that _Punish Me With Scorpions_ was not hidden in the
floorboards to preserve its pungent philosophical analysis
of the problem on pain in a universe with a caring God, no
matter what they say in public.
--
This rings a bell - I think I read it in Analog? Book aficionados of
the future were obsessed with getting the same old detective novels in
new formats and character sets, but no one seemed to write actual new
books, right?
For years I've had the title "Pixie Dixon and the Case of the Haunted
Playpen" stuck in my mind. This may be the only time it is of use!
Our viewpoint character had taught himself to read, and write -if only
in block letters- from signs around that just hadn't been taken down.
He produced the impressive demonstration "your lunch is radioactive".
--
-Jack
Tarzan memorably taught himself to read from his parents' journals.
I think he actually learned from some of the books they left--I
remember he made up his own language in which bugs featured
prominently as a conceptual framework, and printed English bears more
resemblance to a collection of bugs than does Spencerian manuscript.
Quadibloc
2021-09-03 22:46:04 UTC
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Post by J. Clarke
I think he actually learned from some of the books they left--I
remember he made up his own language in which bugs featured
prominently as a conceptual framework,
He made up his own names for the letters of the alphabet, yes.

The words "bu" and "mu" for male and female were from the language
of the Mangani, and he applied them to capital letters and small letters
respectively. So, with G being "la", O being "tu", and D being "mo", in his
verbal notation for English text, he referred to God as "Bulamutumumo",
as noted in "Jungle Tales of Tarzan".

And he indeed called those little letters on the page "bugs".

John Savard
Andrew Love
2021-09-03 20:17:02 UTC
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Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
There was a story I read years ago set in a future where all books,
except those carefully hidden, had been destroyed. After the fall
of the anti-book regime, the surviving books were all massively copied
and venerated.
I completely forget the main plot after that, but there was a funny bit
I mean, really Bob, I think everyone knows on some level
that _Punish Me With Scorpions_ was not hidden in the
floorboards to preserve its pungent philosophical analysis
of the problem on pain in a universe with a caring God, no
matter what they say in public.
--
This rings a bell - I think I read it in Analog? Book aficionados of the future were obsessed with getting the same old detective novels in new formats and character sets, but no one seemed to write actual new books, right?
For years I've had the title "Pixie Dixon and the Case of the Haunted Playpen" stuck in my mind. This may be the only time it is of use!
Our viewpoint character had taught himself to read, and write -if only in block letters- from signs around that just hadn't been taken down. He produced the impressive demonstration "your lunch is radioactive".
Thank you very much!
Quadibloc
2021-08-30 20:37:52 UTC
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Post by Dorothy J Heydt
I found a thumbnail of both covers, but I can't expand it enough
to see what he's got besides weaponry and a scowl.
http://www.isfdb.org/cgi-bin/pl.cgi?16205
If you click on the thumbnail, you do get a larger version of the cover.

But I can't figure out what that gadget with three buttons under his
chin and apparently attached to his helmet might be.

John Savard
Jay E. Morris
2021-08-30 21:00:47 UTC
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Post by Quadibloc
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
I found a thumbnail of both covers, but I can't expand it enough
to see what he's got besides weaponry and a scowl.
http://www.isfdb.org/cgi-bin/pl.cgi?16205
If you click on the thumbnail, you do get a larger version of the cover.
But I can't figure out what that gadget with three buttons under his
chin and apparently attached to his helmet might be.
John Savard
It's the future. We'll all be attached to gadgets. Oh, wait....
John Halpenny
2021-08-30 22:11:08 UTC
Reply
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Post by Quadibloc
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
I found a thumbnail of both covers, but I can't expand it enough
to see what he's got besides weaponry and a scowl.
http://www.isfdb.org/cgi-bin/pl.cgi?16205
If you click on the thumbnail, you do get a larger version of the cover.
But I can't figure out what that gadget with three buttons under his
chin and apparently attached to his helmet might be.
Don't some heavy duty scanners in real life cut off the bindings to speed up the process? Of course, you still have a pile of random pages left over.

John
Paul S Person
2021-08-31 16:16:29 UTC
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On Mon, 30 Aug 2021 15:11:08 -0700 (PDT), John Halpenny
Post by John Halpenny
Post by Quadibloc
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
I found a thumbnail of both covers, but I can't expand it enough
to see what he's got besides weaponry and a scowl.
http://www.isfdb.org/cgi-bin/pl.cgi?16205
If you click on the thumbnail, you do get a larger version of the cover.
But I can't figure out what that gadget with three buttons under his
chin and apparently attached to his helmet might be.
Don't some heavy duty scanners in real life cut off the bindings to speed up the process? Of course, you still have a pile of random pages left over.
Sounds like the library digitization process described in /Rainbows
End/ (Vernor Vinge): the contents are sliced up into teeny-tiny pieces
which are scanned individually and digitally recombined according to
context.

The demonstration against this gets so out of hand that one of the
characters, who has The Duty that night, contemplating Nuclear Carpet
Bombing as a solution.
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."
Titus G
2021-09-01 02:38:30 UTC
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On 1/09/21 4:16 am, Paul S Person wrote:
snip
Post by Paul S Person
Sounds like the library digitization process described in /Rainbows
End/ (Vernor Vinge): the contents are sliced up into teeny-tiny pieces
which are scanned individually and digitally recombined according to
context.
The demonstration against this gets so out of hand that one of the
characters, who has The Duty that night, contemplating Nuclear Carpet
Bombing as a solution.
There is much that is wrong there. You appear to be in desperate need of
a re-read.
There are many plots caused by a wide variety of character motivations
but the main plot involves obtaining a YGBM (You Gotta Believe Me)
virus, an electronic virus to bypass your brain security. (and for those
who haven't read it, I am simplifying as there are many levels of
intrigue with many characters having secret agendas attempting dishonest
manipulations, brilliant stuff.) Nuclear Carpet Bombing of the
laboratories housing the virus to prevent its theft was a possibility.
The library was situated close to the laboratories.
The "demonstration" was an organised distraction (from darker matters)
involving a world wide 'televised' public showdown to obtain public
support for each claimant to library usage worldwide, the Militant
Librarians and the Scooch (electronically generated but haptic animals;
a futuristic version of Disneyland perhaps. That may be a bit askew.)
and respective supporters of both.
I am just replying to the faulty explanation. There is so much more to
Rainbows End than my above comments. The first time I read it, I liked
it almost as much as the first two Zones of Thought. All 5 stars.
Paul S Person
2021-09-01 15:38:37 UTC
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Post by Titus G
snip
Post by Paul S Person
Sounds like the library digitization process described in /Rainbows
End/ (Vernor Vinge): the contents are sliced up into teeny-tiny pieces
which are scanned individually and digitally recombined according to
context.
The demonstration against this gets so out of hand that one of the
characters, who has The Duty that night, contemplating Nuclear Carpet
Bombing as a solution.
There is much that is wrong there. You appear to be in desperate need of
a re-read.
Well, a re-read would certainly be a pleasant thing. Of all the Vinge
books. But right now I'm catching up on Cherryh with her collected
short fiction (on Kindle).

Thanks for confirming that Nuclear Carpet Bombing was under
consideration, if not quite for the purpose I recalled.

And I'm sure everyone found your summary much more comprehensive than
mine.
Post by Titus G
There are many plots caused by a wide variety of character motivations
but the main plot involves obtaining a YGBM (You Gotta Believe Me)
virus, an electronic virus to bypass your brain security. (and for those
who haven't read it, I am simplifying as there are many levels of
intrigue with many characters having secret agendas attempting dishonest
manipulations, brilliant stuff.) Nuclear Carpet Bombing of the
laboratories housing the virus to prevent its theft was a possibility.
The library was situated close to the laboratories.
The "demonstration" was an organised distraction (from darker matters)
involving a world wide 'televised' public showdown to obtain public
support for each claimant to library usage worldwide, the Militant
Librarians and the Scooch (electronically generated but haptic animals;
a futuristic version of Disneyland perhaps. That may be a bit askew.)
and respective supporters of both.
I am just replying to the faulty explanation. There is so much more to
Rainbows End than my above comments. The first time I read it, I liked
it almost as much as the first two Zones of Thought. All 5 stars.
Indeed.
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."
pete...@gmail.com
2021-08-31 18:25:04 UTC
Reply
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Post by Quadibloc
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
I found a thumbnail of both covers, but I can't expand it enough
to see what he's got besides weaponry and a scowl.
http://www.isfdb.org/cgi-bin/pl.cgi?16205
If you click on the thumbnail, you do get a larger version of the cover.
But I can't figure out what that gadget with three buttons under his
chin and apparently attached to his helmet might be.
Don't some heavy duty scanners in real life cut off the bindings to speed up the process? Of course, you still have a pile of random pages left over.
I've actually done this. I have a printer/scanner with a page feeder, which scans and OCRs both sides of a document. It works, but, as noted,
destroys the book. Don't use it on rare ones.

pt
Scott Lurndal
2021-08-31 18:34:14 UTC
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Post by ***@gmail.com
Post by Quadibloc
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
I found a thumbnail of both covers, but I can't expand it enough
to see what he's got besides weaponry and a scowl.
http://www.isfdb.org/cgi-bin/pl.cgi?16205
If you click on the thumbnail, you do get a larger version of the cover.
But I can't figure out what that gadget with three buttons under his
chin and apparently attached to his helmet might be.
Don't some heavy duty scanners in real life cut off the bindings to speed up the process? Of course, you still have a pile of random pages left over.
I've actually done this. I have a printer/scanner with a page feeder, which scans and OCRs both sides of a document. It works, but, as noted,
destroys the book. Don't use it on rare ones.
Google books uses an IR camera based scanner.

https://www.npr.org/sections/library/2009/04/the_granting_of_patent_7508978.html
pete...@gmail.com
2021-08-31 18:55:18 UTC
Reply
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Post by Scott Lurndal
Post by ***@gmail.com
Post by Quadibloc
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
I found a thumbnail of both covers, but I can't expand it enough
to see what he's got besides weaponry and a scowl.
http://www.isfdb.org/cgi-bin/pl.cgi?16205
If you click on the thumbnail, you do get a larger version of the cover.
But I can't figure out what that gadget with three buttons under his
chin and apparently attached to his helmet might be.
Don't some heavy duty scanners in real life cut off the bindings to speed up the process? Of course, you still have a pile of random pages left over.
I've actually done this. I have a printer/scanner with a page feeder, which scans and OCRs both sides of a document. It works, but, as noted,
destroys the book. Don't use it on rare ones.
Google books uses an IR camera based scanner.
https://www.npr.org/sections/library/2009/04/the_granting_of_patent_7508978.html
If you look at a lot of Google Books scans, you'll start to notice that some include the operator's
fingers, holding down the pages.

I've seen better systems, which only open the book 90 degrees, and use different cameras for the
recto and verso pages. Making a machine that can accurately turn a single page, without damaging
the book, is apparently quite difficult.

pt
Jaimie Vandenbergh
2021-09-01 11:42:56 UTC
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Post by ***@gmail.com
Post by Scott Lurndal
Post by ***@gmail.com
Post by Quadibloc
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
I found a thumbnail of both covers, but I can't expand it enough
to see what he's got besides weaponry and a scowl.
http://www.isfdb.org/cgi-bin/pl.cgi?16205
If you click on the thumbnail, you do get a larger version of the cover.
But I can't figure out what that gadget with three buttons under his
chin and apparently attached to his helmet might be.
Don't some heavy duty scanners in real life cut off the bindings to speed up the process? Of course, you still have a pile of random pages left over.
I've actually done this. I have a printer/scanner with a page feeder, which scans and OCRs both sides of a document. It works, but, as noted,
destroys the book. Don't use it on rare ones.
Google books uses an IR camera based scanner.
https://www.npr.org/sections/library/2009/04/the_granting_of_patent_7508978.html
If you look at a lot of Google Books scans, you'll start to notice that some include the operator's
fingers, holding down the pages.
I've seen better systems, which only open the book 90 degrees, and use different cameras for the
recto and verso pages. Making a machine that can accurately turn a single page, without damaging
the book, is apparently quite difficult.
In my final year at university in the 90s the main library acquired some
very industrial/military looking photocopiers with right-angled glass /\
to open a book onto. Two cameras or a mirror, I forget. Very
practically, turning the pages was left to the student.

Cheers - Jaimie
--
Imagine there were no hypothetical situations.
Paul S Person
2021-09-01 15:40:21 UTC
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Post by ***@gmail.com
Post by Scott Lurndal
Post by ***@gmail.com
Post by Quadibloc
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
I found a thumbnail of both covers, but I can't expand it enough
to see what he's got besides weaponry and a scowl.
http://www.isfdb.org/cgi-bin/pl.cgi?16205
If you click on the thumbnail, you do get a larger version of the cover.
But I can't figure out what that gadget with three buttons under his
chin and apparently attached to his helmet might be.
Don't some heavy duty scanners in real life cut off the bindings to speed up the process? Of course, you still have a pile of random pages left over.
I've actually done this. I have a printer/scanner with a page feeder, which scans and OCRs both sides of a document. It works, but, as noted,
destroys the book. Don't use it on rare ones.
Google books uses an IR camera based scanner.
https://www.npr.org/sections/library/2009/04/the_granting_of_patent_7508978.html
If you look at a lot of Google Books scans, you'll start to notice that some include the operator's
fingers, holding down the pages.
I've seen better systems, which only open the book 90 degrees, and use different cameras for the
recto and verso pages. Making a machine that can accurately turn a single page, without damaging
the book, is apparently quite difficult.
Given the child labor laws, I would say about 18 years from birth to
availability.
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."
Thomas Koenig
2021-09-01 20:56:31 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by ***@gmail.com
Post by Scott Lurndal
Post by ***@gmail.com
Post by Quadibloc
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
I found a thumbnail of both covers, but I can't expand it enough
to see what he's got besides weaponry and a scowl.
http://www.isfdb.org/cgi-bin/pl.cgi?16205
If you click on the thumbnail, you do get a larger version of the cover.
But I can't figure out what that gadget with three buttons under his
chin and apparently attached to his helmet might be.
Don't some heavy duty scanners in real life cut off the bindings to speed up the process? Of course, you still have a pile of random pages left over.
I've actually done this. I have a printer/scanner with a page feeder, which scans and OCRs both sides of a document. It works, but, as noted,
destroys the book. Don't use it on rare ones.
Google books uses an IR camera based scanner.
https://www.npr.org/sections/library/2009/04/the_granting_of_patent_7508978.html
If you look at a lot of Google Books scans, you'll start to notice that some include the operator's
fingers, holding down the pages.
I've seen better systems, which only open the book 90 degrees, and use different cameras for the
recto and verso pages. Making a machine that can accurately turn a single page, without damaging
the book, is apparently quite difficult.
Finally, an argument for Asimov's robots - they could easily turn
the pages with their hands and read (or scan) them. IIRC, Lenny in
"Galley Slave" did just that.
Quadibloc
2021-08-31 18:37:33 UTC
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Post by ***@gmail.com
I've actually done this. I have a printer/scanner with a page feeder,
which scans and OCRs both sides of a document. It works, but, as noted,
destroys the book. Don't use it on rare ones.
Oh, indeed. I wish I had a paint program that would do the appropriate
geometrical transformatiion to handle the gutters of intact books...

John Savard
Robert Carnegie
2021-08-31 20:31:30 UTC
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Permalink
Post by Quadibloc
Post by ***@gmail.com
I've actually done this. I have a printer/scanner with a page feeder,
which scans and OCRs both sides of a document. It works, but, as noted,
destroys the book. Don't use it on rare ones.
Oh, indeed. I wish I had a paint program that would do the appropriate
geometrical transformatiion to handle the gutters of intact books...
That should be a solved problem by now. Text lines
are expected to be straight... and not out of focus.
Searching (straighten text scan) lists many options.
They may take money or effort though.

Are you just trying to make scanned pages comfortably
readable by humans?

Quite a long time ago, I tried out OCR at home.
Computer text recognition was improved greatly
by altering the scanned image to make text lines
horizontal instead of slightly diagonal. At the time
I found it very disappointing that the OCR software
needed that help. But I think it wasn't the latest.
Dorothy J Heydt
2021-08-30 22:13:02 UTC
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Permalink
Post by Quadibloc
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
I found a thumbnail of both covers, but I can't expand it enough
to see what he's got besides weaponry and a scowl.
http://www.isfdb.org/cgi-bin/pl.cgi?16205
If you click on the thumbnail, you do get a larger version of the cover.
Ah! Thanks.
A
Post by Quadibloc
But I can't figure out what that gadget with three buttons under his
chin and apparently attached to his helmet might be.
Me neither. But the pen and paper on his helmet are crossed by a
sort of chevron. (It was 1952; the slashed circle was I don't
know how far into the future then. Wikipeda gives several
hundred examples, but declines to tell me when it came in.)
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/
Quadibloc
2021-08-31 09:59:31 UTC
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Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Me neither. But the pen and paper on his helmet are crossed by a
sort of chevron. (It was 1952; the slashed circle was I don't
know how far into the future then. Wikipeda gives several
hundred examples, but declines to tell me when it came in.)
As it was originally used for traffic signs in Europe, so that people could
drive from one country to another without being unable to obey the
rules of the road expressed in a foreign language, I suspect that the
slashed circle was _not_ in the future, even in 1952.

John Savard
Quadibloc
2021-08-31 10:03:42 UTC
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Post by Quadibloc
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Me neither. But the pen and paper on his helmet are crossed by a
sort of chevron. (It was 1952; the slashed circle was I don't
know how far into the future then. Wikipeda gives several
hundred examples, but declines to tell me when it came in.)
As it was originally used for traffic signs in Europe, so that people could
drive from one country to another without being unable to obey the
rules of the road expressed in a foreign language, I suspect that the
slashed circle was _not_ in the future, even in 1952.
I came across one site which said European road signs were governed
by the Vienna Convention, which dated from 1978. However, that let me find
_this_ Wikipedia article,

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vienna_Convention_on_Road_Signs_and_Signals

which notes that the 1978 agreement was negotiated in 1968, even if it came
into force ten years later, and it was a successor to previous agreements in
1949 and 1931. I will need to look some more to see if the slashed circle dates
from 1949 or 1931.

John Savard
Quadibloc
2021-08-31 10:08:40 UTC
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Post by Quadibloc
Post by Quadibloc
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Me neither. But the pen and paper on his helmet are crossed by a
sort of chevron. (It was 1952; the slashed circle was I don't
know how far into the future then. Wikipeda gives several
hundred examples, but declines to tell me when it came in.)
As it was originally used for traffic signs in Europe, so that people could
drive from one country to another without being unable to obey the
rules of the road expressed in a foreign language, I suspect that the
slashed circle was _not_ in the future, even in 1952.
I came across one site which said European road signs were governed
by the Vienna Convention, which dated from 1978. However, that let me find
_this_ Wikipedia article,
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vienna_Convention_on_Road_Signs_and_Signals
which notes that the 1978 agreement was negotiated in 1968, even if it came
into force ten years later, and it was a successor to previous agreements in
1949 and 1931. I will need to look some more to see if the slashed circle dates
from 1949 or 1931.
This image

Loading Image...

suggests that the slashed circle was part of the Geneva Convention on the Unification
of Road Signs and Signals, which was ratified in 1931, and came into force in 1934.

So there you have it.

John Savard
Dorothy J Heydt
2021-08-31 13:03:04 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Quadibloc
Post by Quadibloc
Post by Quadibloc
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Me neither. But the pen and paper on his helmet are crossed by a
sort of chevron. (It was 1952; the slashed circle was I don't
know how far into the future then. Wikipeda gives several
hundred examples, but declines to tell me when it came in.)
As it was originally used for traffic signs in Europe, so that people could
drive from one country to another without being unable to obey the
rules of the road expressed in a foreign language, I suspect that the
slashed circle was _not_ in the future, even in 1952.
I came across one site which said European road signs were governed
by the Vienna Convention, which dated from 1978. However, that let me find
_this_ Wikipedia article,
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vienna_Convention_on_Road_Signs_and_Signals
which notes that the 1978 agreement was negotiated in 1968, even if it came
into force ten years later, and it was a successor to previous agreements in
1949 and 1931. I will need to look some more to see if the slashed
circle dates
Post by Quadibloc
from 1949 or 1931.
This image
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Geneva_Road_Signals_Convention_1931_-_Table_2_(Romania).png
suggests that the slashed circle was part of the Geneva Convention on the Unification
of Road Signs and Signals, which was ratified in 1931, and came into force in 1934.
So there you have it.
Incidentally, ISFDB mentions that the cover, not credited, was by
Ed Emshwiller, usually signed "EMSH".
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/
Kevrob
2021-09-04 07:52:54 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Quadibloc
Post by Quadibloc
Post by Quadibloc
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Me neither. But the pen and paper on his helmet are crossed by a
sort of chevron. (It was 1952; the slashed circle was I don't
know how far into the future then. Wikipeda gives several
hundred examples, but declines to tell me when it came in.)
As it was originally used for traffic signs in Europe, so that people could
drive from one country to another without being unable to obey the
rules of the road expressed in a foreign language, I suspect that the
slashed circle was _not_ in the future, even in 1952.
I came across one site which said European road signs were governed
by the Vienna Convention, which dated from 1978. However, that let me find
_this_ Wikipedia article,
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vienna_Convention_on_Road_Signs_and_Signals
which notes that the 1978 agreement was negotiated in 1968, even if it came
into force ten years later, and it was a successor to previous agreements in
1949 and 1931. I will need to look some more to see if the slashed circle dates
from 1949 or 1931.
This image
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Geneva_Road_Signals_Convention_1931_-_Table_2_(Romania).png
suggests that the slashed circle was part of the Geneva Convention on the Unification
of Road Signs and Signals, which was ratified in 1931, and came into force in 1934.
So there you have it.
Big mistake. Nazi blitzkriegs could have been slowed by
different standards for each invaded country's road signs. :)

--
Kevin R
Thomas Koenig
2021-09-04 10:50:57 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Kevrob
Post by Quadibloc
Post by Quadibloc
Post by Quadibloc
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Me neither. But the pen and paper on his helmet are crossed by a
sort of chevron. (It was 1952; the slashed circle was I don't
know how far into the future then. Wikipeda gives several
hundred examples, but declines to tell me when it came in.)
As it was originally used for traffic signs in Europe, so that people could
drive from one country to another without being unable to obey the
rules of the road expressed in a foreign language, I suspect that the
slashed circle was _not_ in the future, even in 1952.
I came across one site which said European road signs were governed
by the Vienna Convention, which dated from 1978. However, that let me find
_this_ Wikipedia article,
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vienna_Convention_on_Road_Signs_and_Signals
which notes that the 1978 agreement was negotiated in 1968, even if it came
into force ten years later, and it was a successor to previous agreements in
1949 and 1931. I will need to look some more to see if the slashed circle dates
from 1949 or 1931.
This image
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Geneva_Road_Signals_Convention_1931_-_Table_2_(Romania).png
suggests that the slashed circle was part of the Geneva Convention on the Unification
of Road Signs and Signals, which was ratified in 1931, and came into force in 1934.
So there you have it.
Big mistake. Nazi blitzkriegs could have been slowed by
different standards for each invaded country's road signs. :)
IIRC, during the Battle of France, they even drove tanks across
a railway bridge, so it seems they didn't particularly care about
traffic rules. Shocking.
Dorothy J Heydt
2021-08-31 13:01:34 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Quadibloc
Post by Quadibloc
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Me neither. But the pen and paper on his helmet are crossed by a
sort of chevron. (It was 1952; the slashed circle was I don't
know how far into the future then. Wikipeda gives several
hundred examples, but declines to tell me when it came in.)
As it was originally used for traffic signs in Europe, so that people could
drive from one country to another without being unable to obey the
rules of the road expressed in a foreign language, I suspect that the
slashed circle was _not_ in the future, even in 1952.
I came across one site which said European road signs were governed
by the Vienna Convention, which dated from 1978. However, that let me find
_this_ Wikipedia article,
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vienna_Convention_on_Road_Signs_and_Signals
which notes that the 1978 agreement was negotiated in 1968, even if it came
into force ten years later, and it was a successor to previous agreements in
1949 and 1931. I will need to look some more to see if the slashed circle dates
from 1949 or 1931.
Interesting. And the graphic indicates that the US (and Canada)
are still not signatories, even though the slashed circle has
permeated our culture.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/
pete...@gmail.com
2021-08-31 14:43:35 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Quadibloc
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Me neither. But the pen and paper on his helmet are crossed by a
sort of chevron. (It was 1952; the slashed circle was I don't
know how far into the future then. Wikipeda gives several
hundred examples, but declines to tell me when it came in.)
As it was originally used for traffic signs in Europe, so that people could
drive from one country to another without being unable to obey the
rules of the road expressed in a foreign language, I suspect that the
slashed circle was _not_ in the future, even in 1952.
You may be right. In 1952 I was ten years old and had never seen
it, so I'm assuming that it had not reached the obstinately monolingual
US then.
It was new to me in 1965, when I moved to Europe, but well-established
and ubiquitous there.

pt
Quadibloc
2021-08-31 18:34:03 UTC
Reply
Permalink
You may be right. In 1952 I was ten years old and had never seen
it, so I'm assuming that it had not reached the obstinately monolingual
US then.
In Canada, we don't use European-style road signs either. The only way I
typically see it is in symbolic "no smoking" signs, and they started turning
up later on, back when cities started adopting ordinances to limit smoking,
which may have been in the late 'sixties or early 'seventies.

But at least now you know that if you see a modern European style road
sign in a World War II movie, it isn't because they did their research
badly.

John Savard
Dorothy J Heydt
2021-08-31 19:54:45 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Quadibloc
You may be right. In 1952 I was ten years old and had never seen
it, so I'm assuming that it had not reached the obstinately monolingual
US then.
In Canada, we don't use European-style road signs either. The only way I
typically see it is in symbolic "no smoking" signs, and they started turning
up later on, back when cities started adopting ordinances to limit smoking,
which may have been in the late 'sixties or early 'seventies.
But at least now you know that if you see a modern European style road
sign in a World War II movie, it isn't because they did their research
badly.
Let me guess.

It's because the local authorities would not allow the signs to
be removed, thus endangering the populace?
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/
J. Clarke
2021-08-31 21:08:59 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Quadibloc
You may be right. In 1952 I was ten years old and had never seen
it, so I'm assuming that it had not reached the obstinately monolingual
US then.
In Canada, we don't use European-style road signs either. The only way I
typically see it is in symbolic "no smoking" signs, and they started turning
up later on, back when cities started adopting ordinances to limit smoking,
which may have been in the late 'sixties or early 'seventies.
But at least now you know that if you see a modern European style road
sign in a World War II movie, it isn't because they did their research
badly.
Let me guess.
It's because the local authorities would not allow the signs to
be removed, thus endangering the populace?
I think it was determined earlier that the "modern" signage dates to
the 1930s.
Robert Carnegie
2021-08-31 20:44:58 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Quadibloc
You may be right. In 1952 I was ten years old and had never seen
it, so I'm assuming that it had not reached the obstinately monolingual
US then.
In Canada, we don't use European-style road signs either. The only way I
typically see it is in symbolic "no smoking" signs, and they started turning
up later on, back when cities started adopting ordinances to limit smoking,
which may have been in the late 'sixties or early 'seventies.
But at least now you know that if you see a modern European style road
sign in a World War II movie, it isn't because they did their research
badly.
<https://www.usmbooks.com/focke_wulf_fliegerkalender.html>
claims to show, lower down, a handy 1939 chart of Nazi road signs.

Now I just have to worry about Google asking why I was
asking for them.

I think this is a diary and reference book for German pilots.
Flying low enough to read highway signage may have been
more acceptable then than now, but it's still cheating.

England took down signs around this time to make it difficult
if the enemy invaded, Germany may have done so later, but I
assume they left in one way streets and such... or perhaps not?
J. Clarke
2021-08-31 21:12:03 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Tue, 31 Aug 2021 13:44:58 -0700 (PDT), Robert Carnegie
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by Quadibloc
You may be right. In 1952 I was ten years old and had never seen
it, so I'm assuming that it had not reached the obstinately monolingual
US then.
In Canada, we don't use European-style road signs either. The only way I
typically see it is in symbolic "no smoking" signs, and they started turning
up later on, back when cities started adopting ordinances to limit smoking,
which may have been in the late 'sixties or early 'seventies.
But at least now you know that if you see a modern European style road
sign in a World War II movie, it isn't because they did their research
badly.
<https://www.usmbooks.com/focke_wulf_fliegerkalender.html>
claims to show, lower down, a handy 1939 chart of Nazi road signs.
Now I just have to worry about Google asking why I was
asking for them.
I think this is a diary and reference book for German pilots.
Flying low enough to read highway signage may have been
more acceptable then than now, but it's still cheating.
IFR--depending on where you are, it can mean "I Follow Road" or "I
Follow River".
Post by Robert Carnegie
England took down signs around this time to make it difficult
if the enemy invaded, Germany may have done so later, but I
assume they left in one way streets and such... or perhaps not?
Dimensional Traveler
2021-09-01 01:50:17 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by Quadibloc
You may be right. In 1952 I was ten years old and had never seen
it, so I'm assuming that it had not reached the obstinately monolingual
US then.
In Canada, we don't use European-style road signs either. The only way I
typically see it is in symbolic "no smoking" signs, and they started turning
up later on, back when cities started adopting ordinances to limit smoking,
which may have been in the late 'sixties or early 'seventies.
But at least now you know that if you see a modern European style road
sign in a World War II movie, it isn't because they did their research
badly.
<https://www.usmbooks.com/focke_wulf_fliegerkalender.html>
claims to show, lower down, a handy 1939 chart of Nazi road signs.
Now I just have to worry about Google asking why I was
asking for them.
I think this is a diary and reference book for German pilots.
Flying low enough to read highway signage may have been
more acceptable then than now, but it's still cheating.
England took down signs around this time to make it difficult
if the enemy invaded, Germany may have done so later, but I
assume they left in one way streets and such... or perhaps not?
No reason to do so. Its not like a tank commander is going to go "Oh
shoot, I want to go down that street to shoot the enemy but its a one
way street the other way. Guess I'll have to go around."

You would take down direction signs (arrow with a town name) or street
name signs.
--
Troll, troll, troll your post gently down the thread
Angrily, angrily, angrily, the net's a nut's scream.
Des
2021-08-31 21:08:25 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Quadibloc
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Me neither. But the pen and paper on his helmet are crossed by a
sort of chevron. (It was 1952; the slashed circle was I don't
know how far into the future then. Wikipeda gives several
hundred examples, but declines to tell me when it came in.)
As it was originally used for traffic signs in Europe, so that people could
drive from one country to another without being unable to obey the
rules of the road expressed in a foreign language, I suspect that the
slashed circle was _not_ in the future, even in 1952.
You may be right. In 1952 I was ten years old and had never seen
it, so I'm assuming that it had not reached the obstinately monolingual
US then.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/
https://www.pinterest.ie/pin/352617845795206535/ - refers to it in use 1944 in the UK. I remember seeing them in the 50's in Ireland leaving towns.

Des
David Johnston
2021-08-31 06:26:17 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Quadibloc
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
I found a thumbnail of both covers, but I can't expand it enough
to see what he's got besides weaponry and a scowl.
http://www.isfdb.org/cgi-bin/pl.cgi?16205
If you click on the thumbnail, you do get a larger version of the cover.
But I can't figure out what that gadget with three buttons under his
chin and apparently attached to his helmet might be.
What it might be is a radio with the cables running into earphones built
into his helmet.
J. Clarke
2021-08-30 22:05:00 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by j***@panix.com
Five Works About Preserving or Destroying Books
https://www.tor.com/2021/08/30/five-works-about-preserving-or-destroying-books/
Another candidate might be McGuire and Piper's _Revolt in 2140_,
about which I remember very little, except that Literates (with a
capital L) are a privileged minority and the Illiterates are
interested in wiping them out. And their little books, too.
It was published as an Ace Double, the B side of "Cyril Judd"'s
_Gunner Cade_. It had a cover featuring a menacing a menacing
armed man with an armband? flag? something representing a
crossed-out pen and notepad.
I found a thumbnail of both covers, but I can't expand it enough
to see what he's got besides weaponry and a scowl.
http://www.isfdb.org/cgi-bin/pl.cgi?16205
It's on his helmet. A gray roundel with a white scroll and
superimposed on the scroll a black pen, then superimposed on all of it
a red check mark or V, or something similar.

He's carrying a pip gun and a piece of pipe and has a round object on
his chest with 3 cables running over his shoulder and three
buttons--there's semicircular area above the buttons that looks like
an image of pick-up sticks.

In any case his facial expression could be greatly improved with a
Louisville Slugger.
Scott Lurndal
2021-08-30 22:24:12 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by j***@panix.com
Five Works About Preserving or Destroying Books
https://www.tor.com/2021/08/30/five-works-about-preserving-or-destroying-books/
Another candidate might be McGuire and Piper's _Revolt in 2140_,
about which I remember very little, except that Literates (with a
capital L) are a privileged minority and the Illiterates are
interested in wiping them out. And their little books, too.
It was published as an Ace Double, the B side of "Cyril Judd"'s
_Gunner Cade_. It had a cover featuring a menacing a menacing
armed man with an armband? flag? something representing a
crossed-out pen and notepad.
_Gunner Cade_ is labeled 'FIRST-GRADE" by the NYT - are
they referring to the prospective audience, or the quality of the
story?
Dorothy J Heydt
2021-08-31 00:21:25 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Scott Lurndal
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by j***@panix.com
Five Works About Preserving or Destroying Books
https://www.tor.com/2021/08/30/five-works-about-preserving-or-destroying-books/
Another candidate might be McGuire and Piper's _Revolt in 2140_,
about which I remember very little, except that Literates (with a
capital L) are a privileged minority and the Illiterates are
interested in wiping them out. And their little books, too.
It was published as an Ace Double, the B side of "Cyril Judd"'s
_Gunner Cade_. It had a cover featuring a menacing a menacing
armed man with an armband? flag? something representing a
crossed-out pen and notepad.
_Gunner Cade_ is labeled 'FIRST-GRADE" by the NYT - are
they referring to the prospective audience, or the quality of the
story?
The latter, in my opinion.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/
Robert Woodward
2021-08-31 05:02:50 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by j***@panix.com
Five Works About Preserving or Destroying Books
https://www.tor.com/2021/08/30/five-works-about-preserving-or-destroying-book
s/
Another candidate might be McGuire and Piper's _Revolt in 2140_,
about which I remember very little, except that Literates (with a
capital L) are a privileged minority and the Illiterates are
interested in wiping them out. And their little books, too.
I will point out that the story takes place in 2142 (past Presidential
election was in 2140, mid-term election coming up). Also, AFAICT, it was
the only Piper story that wasn't reprinted by Ace in the late 70s and
early 80s.
--
"We have advanced to new and surprising levels of bafflement."
Imperial Auditor Miles Vorkosigan describes progress in _Komarr_.
‹-----------------------------------------------------
Robert Woodward ***@drizzle.com
James Nicoll
2021-08-31 12:56:19 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Robert Woodward
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by j***@panix.com
Five Works About Preserving or Destroying Books
https://www.tor.com/2021/08/30/five-works-about-preserving-or-destroying-book
s/
Another candidate might be McGuire and Piper's _Revolt in 2140_,
about which I remember very little, except that Literates (with a
capital L) are a privileged minority and the Illiterates are
interested in wiping them out. And their little books, too.
I will point out that the story takes place in 2142 (past Presidential
election was in 2140, mid-term election coming up). Also, AFAICT, it was
the only Piper story that wasn't reprinted by Ace in the late 70s and
early 80s.
--
"We have advanced to new and surprising levels of bafflement."
Imperial Auditor Miles Vorkosigan describes progress in _Komarr_.
Ace also passed on Murder in the Gunroom.
--
My reviews can be found at http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/
My tor pieces at https://www.tor.com/author/james-davis-nicoll/
My Dreamwidth at https://james-davis-nicoll.dreamwidth.org/
My patreon is at https://www.patreon.com/jamesdnicoll
Robert Woodward
2021-09-01 05:01:16 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by James Nicoll
Post by Robert Woodward
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by j***@panix.com
Five Works About Preserving or Destroying Books
https://www.tor.com/2021/08/30/five-works-about-preserving-or-destroying-b
ook
s/
Another candidate might be McGuire and Piper's _Revolt in 2140_,
about which I remember very little, except that Literates (with a
capital L) are a privileged minority and the Illiterates are
interested in wiping them out. And their little books, too.
I will point out that the story takes place in 2142 (past Presidential
election was in 2140, mid-term election coming up). Also, AFAICT, it was
the only Piper story that wasn't reprinted by Ace in the late 70s and
early 80s.
--
"We have advanced to new and surprising levels of bafflement."
Imperial Auditor Miles Vorkosigan describes progress in _Komarr_.
Ace also passed on Murder in the Gunroom.
True, I was thinking of just his SF work; I hadn't expected Ace to
reprint a mystery novel.
--
"We have advanced to new and surprising levels of bafflement."
Imperial Auditor Miles Vorkosigan describes progress in _Komarr_.
‹-----------------------------------------------------
Robert Woodward ***@drizzle.com
Quadibloc
2021-08-31 10:20:10 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Another candidate might be McGuire and Piper's _Revolt in 2140_,
Actually, looking at the cover, the title is "Crisis in 2140". That enabled me
to find the work with a search, and also to learn that it was later republished
as "Null-ABC".

So we have a Van Vogt reference, but _not_ a strong resemblance to the
title Signet used for a Heinlein collection including "If This Goes On...".
(Revolt in 2100, of course.)

John Savard
Quadibloc
2021-09-01 05:18:11 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Quadibloc
Actually, looking at the cover, the title is "Crisis in 2140". That enabled me
to find the work with a search, and also to learn that it was later republished
as "Null-ABC".
It turns out that Null-ABC was the story's original title when first published
in two parts in the February and March 1953 issues of Astounding Science
Fiction.

John Savard
David Johnston
2021-08-30 18:17:30 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by j***@panix.com
Five Works About Preserving or Destroying Books
https://www.tor.com/2021/08/30/five-works-about-preserving-or-destroying-books/
I remember there was a short story based on naive extrapolation of the
expansion of library book collections so that they threatened to fill
the world.
Andrew Love
2021-09-01 21:50:53 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by David Johnston
Post by j***@panix.com
Five Works About Preserving or Destroying Books
https://www.tor.com/2021/08/30/five-works-about-preserving-or-destroying-books/
I remember there was a short story based on naive extrapolation of the
expansion of library book collections so that they threatened to fill
the world.
Ms Fnd in a Lbry, perhaps? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MS_Fnd_in_a_Lbry
Titus G
2021-08-30 19:38:44 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by j***@panix.com
Five Works About Preserving or Destroying Books
https://www.tor.com/2021/08/30/five-works-about-preserving-or-destroying-books/
Although not the main theme, Vernor Vinge's "Rainbows End" details the
procedures whereby every book in a library is destroyed by an
eviscerating machine which photographs every torn piece and reproduces
every book electronically. So, both preserving and destroying.
Dorothy J Heydt
2021-08-30 20:36:34 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by j***@panix.com
Post by j***@panix.com
Five Works About Preserving or Destroying Books
https://www.tor.com/2021/08/30/five-works-about-preserving-or-destroying-books/
Although not the main theme, Vernor Vinge's "Rainbows End" details the
procedures whereby every book in a library is destroyed by an
eviscerating machine which photographs every torn piece and reproduces
every book electronically. So, both preserving and destroying.
Does he give any reason why it's necessary to do it that way?
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/
J. Clarke
2021-08-30 22:25:58 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by j***@panix.com
Post by j***@panix.com
Five Works About Preserving or Destroying Books
https://www.tor.com/2021/08/30/five-works-about-preserving-or-destroying-books/
Although not the main theme, Vernor Vinge's "Rainbows End" details the
procedures whereby every book in a library is destroyed by an
eviscerating machine which photographs every torn piece and reproduces
every book electronically. So, both preserving and destroying.
Does he give any reason why it's necessary to do it that way?
Probably realistic. A commonplace way to store a book electronically
is to clamp it between a couple of pieces of plywood, saw the spine
off, then run the separated pages through a scanner. Of course the
book isn't good for much after that. I guess it could be rebound but
it wouldn't be a very strong binding.
Dorothy J Heydt
2021-08-31 00:22:54 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by J. Clarke
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by j***@panix.com
Post by j***@panix.com
Five Works About Preserving or Destroying Books
https://www.tor.com/2021/08/30/five-works-about-preserving-or-destroying-books/
Although not the main theme, Vernor Vinge's "Rainbows End" details the
procedures whereby every book in a library is destroyed by an
eviscerating machine which photographs every torn piece and reproduces
every book electronically. So, both preserving and destroying.
Does he give any reason why it's necessary to do it that way?
Probably realistic. A commonplace way to store a book electronically
is to clamp it between a couple of pieces of plywood, saw the spine
off, then run the separated pages through a scanner. Of course the
book isn't good for much after that. I guess it could be rebound but
it wouldn't be a very strong binding.
I have several paperback books that have reached that condition
without having been sliced: just read a lot. They can still be
read, and I still read them.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/
Paul S Person
2021-08-31 16:26:25 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Mon, 30 Aug 2021 18:25:58 -0400, J. Clarke
Post by J. Clarke
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by j***@panix.com
Post by j***@panix.com
Five Works About Preserving or Destroying Books
https://www.tor.com/2021/08/30/five-works-about-preserving-or-destroying-books/
Although not the main theme, Vernor Vinge's "Rainbows End" details the
procedures whereby every book in a library is destroyed by an
eviscerating machine which photographs every torn piece and reproduces
every book electronically. So, both preserving and destroying.
Does he give any reason why it's necessary to do it that way?
Probably realistic. A commonplace way to store a book electronically
is to clamp it between a couple of pieces of plywood, saw the spine
off, then run the separated pages through a scanner. Of course the
book isn't good for much after that. I guess it could be rebound but
it wouldn't be a very strong binding.
Ah ... but in /Rainbow's End/ it isn't pages that are photographed
(scanned/digitized), it is bits of pages. Which are blown about and
all mixed up, IIRC.

This requires an AI able to fit the individual bits together properly
"from context". I don't think it would be practical today.
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."
Robert Woodward
2021-08-31 17:16:51 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Paul S Person
On Mon, 30 Aug 2021 18:25:58 -0400, J. Clarke
Post by J. Clarke
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by j***@panix.com
Post by j***@panix.com
Five Works About Preserving or Destroying Books
https://www.tor.com/2021/08/30/five-works-about-preserving-or-destroying-bo
oks/
Although not the main theme, Vernor Vinge's "Rainbows End" details the
procedures whereby every book in a library is destroyed by an
eviscerating machine which photographs every torn piece and reproduces
every book electronically. So, both preserving and destroying.
Does he give any reason why it's necessary to do it that way?
Probably realistic. A commonplace way to store a book electronically
is to clamp it between a couple of pieces of plywood, saw the spine
off, then run the separated pages through a scanner. Of course the
book isn't good for much after that. I guess it could be rebound but
it wouldn't be a very strong binding.
Ah ... but in /Rainbow's End/ it isn't pages that are photographed
(scanned/digitized), it is bits of pages. Which are blown about and
all mixed up, IIRC.
This requires an AI able to fit the individual bits together properly
"from context". I don't think it would be practical today.
I believe that it is being done with scraps of papyrus that has been
found in millennia old trash heaps in Egypt. I don't know how much
progress is being made.
--
"We have advanced to new and surprising levels of bafflement."
Imperial Auditor Miles Vorkosigan describes progress in _Komarr_.
-------------------------------------------------------
Robert Woodward ***@drizzle.com
pete...@gmail.com
2021-08-31 18:47:30 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Robert Woodward
Post by Paul S Person
On Mon, 30 Aug 2021 18:25:58 -0400, J. Clarke
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by j***@panix.com
Post by j***@panix.com
Five Works About Preserving or Destroying Books
https://www.tor.com/2021/08/30/five-works-about-preserving-or-destroying-bo
oks/
Although not the main theme, Vernor Vinge's "Rainbows End" details the
procedures whereby every book in a library is destroyed by an
eviscerating machine which photographs every torn piece and reproduces
every book electronically. So, both preserving and destroying.
Does he give any reason why it's necessary to do it that way?
Probably realistic. A commonplace way to store a book electronically
is to clamp it between a couple of pieces of plywood, saw the spine
off, then run the separated pages through a scanner. Of course the
book isn't good for much after that. I guess it could be rebound but
it wouldn't be a very strong binding.
Ah ... but in /Rainbow's End/ it isn't pages that are photographed
(scanned/digitized), it is bits of pages. Which are blown about and
all mixed up, IIRC.
This requires an AI able to fit the individual bits together properly
"from context". I don't think it would be practical today.
I believe that it is being done with scraps of papyrus that has been
found in millennia old trash heaps in Egypt. I don't know how much
progress is being made.
Perhaps you're thinking of the Ancient Lives project, which isn't using
computers for matching, but is crowdsourcing the transcription of
Ptolomaic Greek texts from the the Oxyrhynchus middens.
https://www.ancientlives.org/

There's also this project, using AI on cuniform texts.
https://techxplore.com/news/2019-07-artificial-intelligence-gaps-ancient-texts.html

...and this, using 3D scanning to test fitting shattered fragments together.
https://phys.org/news/2018-02-long-distance-reconstruction-cultural-artefact.html

Not really related, but a technological tour de force:
https://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/ancient-scrolls-blackened-vesuvius-are-readable-last-herculaneum-papyri-180953950/
work continues:
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-020-80458-z


pt
Robert Woodward
2021-09-01 16:50:55 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by ***@gmail.com
Post by Robert Woodward
Post by Paul S Person
On Mon, 30 Aug 2021 18:25:58 -0400, J. Clarke
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by j***@panix.com
Post by j***@panix.com
Five Works About Preserving or Destroying Books
https://www.tor.com/2021/08/30/five-works-about-preserving-or-destroyin
g-bo
oks/
Although not the main theme, Vernor Vinge's "Rainbows End" details the
procedures whereby every book in a library is destroyed by an
eviscerating machine which photographs every torn piece and reproduces
every book electronically. So, both preserving and destroying.
Does he give any reason why it's necessary to do it that way?
Probably realistic. A commonplace way to store a book electronically
is to clamp it between a couple of pieces of plywood, saw the spine
off, then run the separated pages through a scanner. Of course the
book isn't good for much after that. I guess it could be rebound but
it wouldn't be a very strong binding.
Ah ... but in /Rainbow's End/ it isn't pages that are photographed
(scanned/digitized), it is bits of pages. Which are blown about and
all mixed up, IIRC.
This requires an AI able to fit the individual bits together properly
"from context". I don't think it would be practical today.
I believe that it is being done with scraps of papyrus that has been
found in millennia old trash heaps in Egypt. I don't know how much
progress is being made.
Perhaps you're thinking of the Ancient Lives project, which isn't using
computers for matching, but is crowdsourcing the transcription of
Ptolomaic Greek texts from the the Oxyrhynchus middens.
https://www.ancientlives.org/
That link isn't active at the moment, but I guess I was (and had
conflated it with what I quoted below and similar projects)
Post by ***@gmail.com
There's also this project, using AI on cuniform texts.
https://techxplore.com/news/2019-07-artificial-intelligence-gaps-ancient-texts
.html
...and this, using 3D scanning to test fitting shattered fragments together.
https://phys.org/news/2018-02-long-distance-reconstruction-cultural-artefact.h
tml
<snip>
--
"We have advanced to new and surprising levels of bafflement."
Imperial Auditor Miles Vorkosigan describes progress in _Komarr_.
—-----------------------------------------------------
Robert Woodward ***@drizzle.com
Paul S Person
2021-09-01 15:58:26 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Tue, 31 Aug 2021 10:16:51 -0700, Robert Woodward
Post by Robert Woodward
Post by Paul S Person
On Mon, 30 Aug 2021 18:25:58 -0400, J. Clarke
Post by J. Clarke
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by j***@panix.com
Post by j***@panix.com
Five Works About Preserving or Destroying Books
https://www.tor.com/2021/08/30/five-works-about-preserving-or-destroying-bo
oks/
Although not the main theme, Vernor Vinge's "Rainbows End" details the
procedures whereby every book in a library is destroyed by an
eviscerating machine which photographs every torn piece and reproduces
every book electronically. So, both preserving and destroying.
Does he give any reason why it's necessary to do it that way?
Probably realistic. A commonplace way to store a book electronically
is to clamp it between a couple of pieces of plywood, saw the spine
off, then run the separated pages through a scanner. Of course the
book isn't good for much after that. I guess it could be rebound but
it wouldn't be a very strong binding.
Ah ... but in /Rainbow's End/ it isn't pages that are photographed
(scanned/digitized), it is bits of pages. Which are blown about and
all mixed up, IIRC.
This requires an AI able to fit the individual bits together properly
"from context". I don't think it would be practical today.
I believe that it is being done with scraps of papyrus that has been
found in millennia old trash heaps in Egypt. I don't know how much
progress is being made.
It depends on how dependent they are on finding multiple versions of
the text, broken in different places.

And, of course, if the edges are not regular, they could in theory be
pieced together like a jigsaw puzzle.

If it's being done by scholars, I suspect they are going to be /very
very sure/ of their result before they publish anything purporting to
be a complete reconstructed work.

Now imagine an AI doing this with the shredded remains of a printout
of the Kindle omnibus of Dickens that uses (in some places) "l:" for
(as far as I could tell) "k". How long will it take for it to realize
that a fragment ending in "l" can mate up with one starting with ":"?

And how much work will it have to re-do after it figures this out?
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."
Thomas Koenig
2021-09-01 20:54:53 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Robert Woodward
Post by Paul S Person
On Mon, 30 Aug 2021 18:25:58 -0400, J. Clarke
Post by J. Clarke
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by j***@panix.com
Post by j***@panix.com
Five Works About Preserving or Destroying Books
https://www.tor.com/2021/08/30/five-works-about-preserving-or-destroying-bo
oks/
Although not the main theme, Vernor Vinge's "Rainbows End" details the
procedures whereby every book in a library is destroyed by an
eviscerating machine which photographs every torn piece and reproduces
every book electronically. So, both preserving and destroying.
Does he give any reason why it's necessary to do it that way?
Probably realistic. A commonplace way to store a book electronically
is to clamp it between a couple of pieces of plywood, saw the spine
off, then run the separated pages through a scanner. Of course the
book isn't good for much after that. I guess it could be rebound but
it wouldn't be a very strong binding.
Ah ... but in /Rainbow's End/ it isn't pages that are photographed
(scanned/digitized), it is bits of pages. Which are blown about and
all mixed up, IIRC.
This requires an AI able to fit the individual bits together properly
"from context". I don't think it would be practical today.
I believe that it is being done with scraps of papyrus that has been
found in millennia old trash heaps in Egypt. I don't know how much
progress is being made.
People started doing that with shredded Stasi files. That does
not appear to have worked too well, the project is currently
stopped. See https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stasi-Schnipselmaschine .
Robert Carnegie
2021-08-31 20:14:10 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Paul S Person
On Mon, 30 Aug 2021 18:25:58 -0400, J. Clarke
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by j***@panix.com
Post by j***@panix.com
Five Works About Preserving or Destroying Books
https://www.tor.com/2021/08/30/five-works-about-preserving-or-destroying-books/
Although not the main theme, Vernor Vinge's "Rainbows End" details the
procedures whereby every book in a library is destroyed by an
eviscerating machine which photographs every torn piece and reproduces
every book electronically. So, both preserving and destroying.
Does he give any reason why it's necessary to do it that way?
Probably realistic. A commonplace way to store a book electronically
is to clamp it between a couple of pieces of plywood, saw the spine
off, then run the separated pages through a scanner. Of course the
book isn't good for much after that. I guess it could be rebound but
it wouldn't be a very strong binding.
Ah ... but in /Rainbow's End/ it isn't pages that are photographed
(scanned/digitized), it is bits of pages. Which are blown about and
all mixed up, IIRC.
This requires an AI able to fit the individual bits together properly
"from context". I don't think it would be practical today.
The real life application of the method is to restore
destructively shredded documents.

I do not see a composition date on web page about East German files
<https://www.ironcurtainproject.eu/en/stories/apologies-from-a-minister-president/45-million-stasi-archive-shreds-glue-that/>
and reading closely, they wore their shredding machines out
and resorted to tearing up records by hand. So, not exactly
what I thought.

Call that restoration effort anti-espionage, but
actual espionage may be where the money is in it,
not social history.
Paul S Person
2021-09-01 16:00:25 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Tue, 31 Aug 2021 13:14:10 -0700 (PDT), Robert Carnegie
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by Paul S Person
On Mon, 30 Aug 2021 18:25:58 -0400, J. Clarke
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by j***@panix.com
Post by j***@panix.com
Five Works About Preserving or Destroying Books
https://www.tor.com/2021/08/30/five-works-about-preserving-or-destroying-books/
Although not the main theme, Vernor Vinge's "Rainbows End" details the
procedures whereby every book in a library is destroyed by an
eviscerating machine which photographs every torn piece and reproduces
every book electronically. So, both preserving and destroying.
Does he give any reason why it's necessary to do it that way?
Probably realistic. A commonplace way to store a book electronically
is to clamp it between a couple of pieces of plywood, saw the spine
off, then run the separated pages through a scanner. Of course the
book isn't good for much after that. I guess it could be rebound but
it wouldn't be a very strong binding.
Ah ... but in /Rainbow's End/ it isn't pages that are photographed
(scanned/digitized), it is bits of pages. Which are blown about and
all mixed up, IIRC.
This requires an AI able to fit the individual bits together properly
"from context". I don't think it would be practical today.
The real life application of the method is to restore
destructively shredded documents.
I do not see a composition date on web page about East German files
<https://www.ironcurtainproject.eu/en/stories/apologies-from-a-minister-president/45-million-stasi-archive-shreds-glue-that/>
and reading closely, they wore their shredding machines out
and resorted to tearing up records by hand. So, not exactly
what I thought.
Call that restoration effort anti-espionage, but
actual espionage may be where the money is in it,
not social history.
That film about rescuing Canadians from Iran (/Argo/???) had a bunch
of stern-looking Iranian women supervising a bunch of kids restoring
shredded diplomatic files. Whether that actually happened or not, I
have no idea.

But if the kids were fed and cared for, they probably had a very good
deal.
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."
William Hyde
2021-09-01 23:56:16 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Paul S Person
On Tue, 31 Aug 2021 13:14:10 -0700 (PDT), Robert Carnegie
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by Paul S Person
On Mon, 30 Aug 2021 18:25:58 -0400, J. Clarke
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by j***@panix.com
Post by j***@panix.com
Five Works About Preserving or Destroying Books
https://www.tor.com/2021/08/30/five-works-about-preserving-or-destroying-books/
Although not the main theme, Vernor Vinge's "Rainbows End" details the
procedures whereby every book in a library is destroyed by an
eviscerating machine which photographs every torn piece and reproduces
every book electronically. So, both preserving and destroying.
Does he give any reason why it's necessary to do it that way?
Probably realistic. A commonplace way to store a book electronically
is to clamp it between a couple of pieces of plywood, saw the spine
off, then run the separated pages through a scanner. Of course the
book isn't good for much after that. I guess it could be rebound but
it wouldn't be a very strong binding.
Ah ... but in /Rainbow's End/ it isn't pages that are photographed
(scanned/digitized), it is bits of pages. Which are blown about and
all mixed up, IIRC.
This requires an AI able to fit the individual bits together properly
"from context". I don't think it would be practical today.
The real life application of the method is to restore
destructively shredded documents.
I do not see a composition date on web page about East German files
<https://www.ironcurtainproject.eu/en/stories/apologies-from-a-minister-president/45-million-stasi-archive-shreds-glue-that/>
and reading closely, they wore their shredding machines out
and resorted to tearing up records by hand. So, not exactly
what I thought.
Call that restoration effort anti-espionage, but
actual espionage may be where the money is in it,
not social history.
That film about rescuing Canadians from Iran (/Argo/???)
Not as good as the one where Washington punches out George III on
Dover beach, when America in 1778 comes to the rescue of a hard-pressed
France.

Loved that movie.

William Hyde
Dorothy J Heydt
2021-09-02 02:07:34 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by William Hyde
Post by Paul S Person
On Tue, 31 Aug 2021 13:14:10 -0700 (PDT), Robert Carnegie
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by Paul S Person
On Mon, 30 Aug 2021 18:25:58 -0400, J. Clarke
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Titus G
Post by j***@panix.com
Five Works About Preserving or Destroying Books
https://www.tor.com/2021/08/30/five-works-about-preserving-or-destroying-books/
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Titus G
Although not the main theme, Vernor Vinge's "Rainbows End" details the
procedures whereby every book in a library is destroyed by an
eviscerating machine which photographs every torn piece and reproduces
every book electronically. So, both preserving and destroying.
Does he give any reason why it's necessary to do it that way?
Probably realistic. A commonplace way to store a book electronically
is to clamp it between a couple of pieces of plywood, saw the spine
off, then run the separated pages through a scanner. Of course the
book isn't good for much after that. I guess it could be rebound but
it wouldn't be a very strong binding.
Ah ... but in /Rainbow's End/ it isn't pages that are photographed
(scanned/digitized), it is bits of pages. Which are blown about and
all mixed up, IIRC.
This requires an AI able to fit the individual bits together properly
"from context". I don't think it would be practical today.
The real life application of the method is to restore
destructively shredded documents.
I do not see a composition date on web page about East German files
<https://www.ironcurtainproject.eu/en/stories/apologies-from-a-minister-president/45-million-stasi-archive-shreds-glue-that/>
Post by Robert Carnegie
and reading closely, they wore their shredding machines out
and resorted to tearing up records by hand. So, not exactly
what I thought.
Call that restoration effort anti-espionage, but
actual espionage may be where the money is in it,
not social history.
That film about rescuing Canadians from Iran (/Argo/???)
Not as good as the one where Washington punches out George III on
Dover beach, when America in 1778 comes to the rescue of a hard-pressed
France.
Loved that movie.
Are you talking about an actual movie? What's its name?
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/
Dorothy J Heydt
2021-09-02 02:24:19 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by William Hyde
Post by Paul S Person
On Tue, 31 Aug 2021 13:14:10 -0700 (PDT), Robert Carnegie
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by Paul S Person
On Mon, 30 Aug 2021 18:25:58 -0400, J. Clarke
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Titus G
Post by j***@panix.com
Five Works About Preserving or Destroying Books
https://www.tor.com/2021/08/30/five-works-about-preserving-or-destroying-books/
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Titus G
Although not the main theme, Vernor Vinge's "Rainbows End" details the
procedures whereby every book in a library is destroyed by an
eviscerating machine which photographs every torn piece and reproduces
every book electronically. So, both preserving and destroying.
Does he give any reason why it's necessary to do it that way?
Probably realistic. A commonplace way to store a book electronically
is to clamp it between a couple of pieces of plywood, saw the spine
off, then run the separated pages through a scanner. Of course the
book isn't good for much after that. I guess it could be rebound but
it wouldn't be a very strong binding.
Ah ... but in /Rainbow's End/ it isn't pages that are photographed
(scanned/digitized), it is bits of pages. Which are blown about and
all mixed up, IIRC.
This requires an AI able to fit the individual bits together properly
"from context". I don't think it would be practical today.
The real life application of the method is to restore
destructively shredded documents.
I do not see a composition date on web page about East German files
<https://www.ironcurtainproject.eu/en/stories/apologies-from-a-minister-president/45-million-stasi-archive-shreds-glue-that/>
Post by Robert Carnegie
and reading closely, they wore their shredding machines out
and resorted to tearing up records by hand. So, not exactly
what I thought.
Call that restoration effort anti-espionage, but
actual espionage may be where the money is in it,
not social history.
That film about rescuing Canadians from Iran (/Argo/???)
Not as good as the one where Washington punches out George III on
Dover beach, when America in 1778 comes to the rescue of a hard-pressed
France.
Loved that movie.
Are you talking about a real movie? Set in an alternate universe
but filmed in ours???
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/
William Hyde
2021-09-02 21:31:26 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by William Hyde
Post by Paul S Person
On Tue, 31 Aug 2021 13:14:10 -0700 (PDT), Robert Carnegie
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by Paul S Person
On Mon, 30 Aug 2021 18:25:58 -0400, J. Clarke
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Titus G
Post by j***@panix.com
Five Works About Preserving or Destroying Books
https://www.tor.com/2021/08/30/five-works-about-preserving-or-destroying-books/
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Titus G
Although not the main theme, Vernor Vinge's "Rainbows End" details the
procedures whereby every book in a library is destroyed by an
eviscerating machine which photographs every torn piece and reproduces
every book electronically. So, both preserving and destroying.
Does he give any reason why it's necessary to do it that way?
Probably realistic. A commonplace way to store a book electronically
is to clamp it between a couple of pieces of plywood, saw the spine
off, then run the separated pages through a scanner. Of course the
book isn't good for much after that. I guess it could be rebound but
it wouldn't be a very strong binding.
Ah ... but in /Rainbow's End/ it isn't pages that are photographed
(scanned/digitized), it is bits of pages. Which are blown about and
all mixed up, IIRC.
This requires an AI able to fit the individual bits together properly
"from context". I don't think it would be practical today.
The real life application of the method is to restore
destructively shredded documents.
I do not see a composition date on web page about East German files
<https://www.ironcurtainproject.eu/en/stories/apologies-from-a-minister-president/45-million-stasi-archive-shreds-glue-that/>
Post by Robert Carnegie
and reading closely, they wore their shredding machines out
and resorted to tearing up records by hand. So, not exactly
what I thought.
Call that restoration effort anti-espionage, but
actual espionage may be where the money is in it,
not social history.
That film about rescuing Canadians from Iran (/Argo/???)
Not as good as the one where Washington punches out George III on
Dover beach, when America in 1778 comes to the rescue of a hard-pressed
France.
Loved that movie.
Are you talking about a real movie? Set in an alternate universe
but filmed in ours???
I was being sarcastic, I fear. I made up a movie that was about as accurate a portrayal of history as the above.

Mr Person is not to be blamed. Argo was already a massive distortion of reality, his memories only completed the process.

A better choice by me would have been a Dutch film in which they liberated Canada from the Nazis in 1945.

Besides, everyone knows George III had a powerful right arm. He went 23 rounds in a bare-knuckle fight against Gentleman Jim Corbett in 1759, one of the events that made that an "Annus Mirabilis".

Yes, I am harvesting mushrooms from a nearby wood. Why do you ask?

William Hyde
Paul S Person
2021-09-02 16:05:38 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Wed, 1 Sep 2021 16:56:16 -0700 (PDT), William Hyde
Post by William Hyde
Post by Paul S Person
On Tue, 31 Aug 2021 13:14:10 -0700 (PDT), Robert Carnegie
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by Paul S Person
On Mon, 30 Aug 2021 18:25:58 -0400, J. Clarke
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by j***@panix.com
Post by j***@panix.com
Five Works About Preserving or Destroying Books
https://www.tor.com/2021/08/30/five-works-about-preserving-or-destroying-books/
Although not the main theme, Vernor Vinge's "Rainbows End" details the
procedures whereby every book in a library is destroyed by an
eviscerating machine which photographs every torn piece and reproduces
every book electronically. So, both preserving and destroying.
Does he give any reason why it's necessary to do it that way?
Probably realistic. A commonplace way to store a book electronically
is to clamp it between a couple of pieces of plywood, saw the spine
off, then run the separated pages through a scanner. Of course the
book isn't good for much after that. I guess it could be rebound but
it wouldn't be a very strong binding.
Ah ... but in /Rainbow's End/ it isn't pages that are photographed
(scanned/digitized), it is bits of pages. Which are blown about and
all mixed up, IIRC.
This requires an AI able to fit the individual bits together properly
"from context". I don't think it would be practical today.
The real life application of the method is to restore
destructively shredded documents.
I do not see a composition date on web page about East German files
<https://www.ironcurtainproject.eu/en/stories/apologies-from-a-minister-president/45-million-stasi-archive-shreds-glue-that/>
and reading closely, they wore their shredding machines out
and resorted to tearing up records by hand. So, not exactly
what I thought.
Call that restoration effort anti-espionage, but
actual espionage may be where the money is in it,
not social history.
That film about rescuing Canadians from Iran (/Argo/???)
Not as good as the one where Washington punches out George III on
Dover beach, when America in 1778 comes to the rescue of a hard-pressed
France.
Loved that movie.
As Dorothy has asked, twice, what movie are you referring to?

I'm not sure where the comparison lies. The film I am thinking of is
supposed to be "based" (that is, "at least vaguely related to") on
actual events. Yours appears to be in direct contradiction to actual
events.

Were there no embassy personnel that escaped capture in Iran? Were
they not Canadian? Were they, for example, Americans who were hiding
in the Canadian Embassy and I simply confused myself?
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."
Lawrence Watt-Evans
2021-09-02 17:44:09 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Thu, 02 Sep 2021 09:05:38 -0700, Paul S Person
Post by Paul S Person
On Wed, 1 Sep 2021 16:56:16 -0700 (PDT), William Hyde
Post by William Hyde
Post by Paul S Person
On Tue, 31 Aug 2021 13:14:10 -0700 (PDT), Robert Carnegie
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by Paul S Person
On Mon, 30 Aug 2021 18:25:58 -0400, J. Clarke
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by j***@panix.com
Post by j***@panix.com
Five Works About Preserving or Destroying Books
https://www.tor.com/2021/08/30/five-works-about-preserving-or-destroying-books/
Although not the main theme, Vernor Vinge's "Rainbows End" details the
procedures whereby every book in a library is destroyed by an
eviscerating machine which photographs every torn piece and reproduces
every book electronically. So, both preserving and destroying.
Does he give any reason why it's necessary to do it that way?
Probably realistic. A commonplace way to store a book electronically
is to clamp it between a couple of pieces of plywood, saw the spine
off, then run the separated pages through a scanner. Of course the
book isn't good for much after that. I guess it could be rebound but
it wouldn't be a very strong binding.
Ah ... but in /Rainbow's End/ it isn't pages that are photographed
(scanned/digitized), it is bits of pages. Which are blown about and
all mixed up, IIRC.
This requires an AI able to fit the individual bits together properly
"from context". I don't think it would be practical today.
The real life application of the method is to restore
destructively shredded documents.
I do not see a composition date on web page about East German files
<https://www.ironcurtainproject.eu/en/stories/apologies-from-a-minister-president/45-million-stasi-archive-shreds-glue-that/>
and reading closely, they wore their shredding machines out
and resorted to tearing up records by hand. So, not exactly
what I thought.
Call that restoration effort anti-espionage, but
actual espionage may be where the money is in it,
not social history.
That film about rescuing Canadians from Iran (/Argo/???)
Not as good as the one where Washington punches out George III on
Dover beach, when America in 1778 comes to the rescue of a hard-pressed
France.
Loved that movie.
As Dorothy has asked, twice, what movie are you referring to?
I'm not sure where the comparison lies. The film I am thinking of is
supposed to be "based" (that is, "at least vaguely related to") on
actual events. Yours appears to be in direct contradiction to actual
events.
Were there no embassy personnel that escaped capture in Iran? Were
they not Canadian? Were they, for example, Americans who were hiding
in the Canadian Embassy and I simply confused myself?
They were Americans hiding in the Canadian embassy. The movie's title
is "Argo," and it's of interest to SF fans because the cover story the
rescuers use is that they're working on a movie, and as I recall the
prop production sketches used in the film were from a real-life
unsuccessful attempt to make a movie of Roger Zelazny's Lord of Light.

(Or possibly those sketches were used in the actual rescue, not the
movie? I forget.)

The movie was based on actual events, and people I know in the
intelligence community who should know say that it wasn't terribly
inaccurate except in drastically downplaying how much the Canadians
did to assist in the escape.
--
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus
Quadibloc
2021-09-03 00:02:43 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Lawrence Watt-Evans
The movie was based on actual events, and people I know in the
intelligence community who should know say that it wasn't terribly
inaccurate except in drastically downplaying how much the Canadians
did to assist in the escape.
There was also the movie U-571 - based on the British capture of an Enigma machine
from a German submarine (U-559), but in the movie, the Americans did it.

John Savard
Don
2021-09-04 19:00:31 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Quadibloc
Post by Lawrence Watt-Evans
The movie was based on actual events, and people I know in the
intelligence community who should know say that it wasn't terribly
inaccurate except in drastically downplaying how much the Canadians
did to assist in the escape.
There was also the movie U-571 - based on the British capture of an Enigma machine
from a German submarine (U-559), but in the movie, the Americans did it.
Although U-559 makes a cameo appearance in _Cryptonomicon_ (Stephenson),
Göring’s treasure ship, U-553, plays the part of the prodigious,
plutocratic prize.

Waterhouse sent him to find a stethoscope, and Shaftoe went
chambering through the U-boat until he found a wooden box.
He opened it up and saw right away it was full of medic
stuff. He pawed through it, looking for what Waterhouse
wanted, and there was the bottle, plain as day, right in
front of his face. His hand brushed against it, for god's
sake. He saw the label as the beam of his flashlight swept
across it:

morphium.

But he didn't grab it. If it had said morphine he would
have grabbed it in a second. But it said morphium. And it
wasn't until about thirty seconds later that he realized
that this was a f*cking German boat and of course the words
would all be different and there was about a 99 percent
chance that morphium was, in fact, exactly the same stuff
as morphine. When he realized that he planted his feet in
the passageway of the darkened U-boat and let out a deep
long scream from way down in his gut. With the noise of
the waves, no one heard him. Then he continued onwards
and carried out his duty, handing over the stethoscope to
Waterhouse. He carried out his duty because he is a
Marine.

... (Shaftoe sets the fuse on explosives to blow the
U-boat's safe off the wall of the captain's cabin,
yells "Fire in the hole!" then scampers back towards
the bow to snag some substitute smack.) ...

There's that box-it ended up on a bunk. Shaftoe yanks it
closer and hauls it open. The contents are all jumbled up,
and there's more than one purple bottle in there, and he
panics for a moment, thinking he'll have to read all of
the labels in their creepy Germanic script, but in a few
seconds he finds the morphium, grabs it, pockets it.

... (A big roller slams into the outside of the boat ...
Everything has gone black) ...

As Sergeant Robert Shaftoe lies there with his face pressed
against that chilly grid, taking a few deep breaths and
trying to regain his nerve, a big wave rocks the boat back
so hard that he's afraid he's going to fall backwards and
plummet all the way to the submerged bow. The swill in the
battery hold rolls downhill, gathering power and velocity
as it falls, and batters the forward bulkhead of the hold
with terrifying power; he can hear rivets giving way under
the impact. As this happens, most of the battery hold is
exposed to the beam of Bobby Shaftoe's flashlight, all the
way down to the bottom. And that is when he sees the
splintered crates down there-very small crates, such as
might be used to contain very heavy supplies. They have
been busted open. Through the gaps in the wreckage, Shaftoe
can see yellow bricks, once neatly stacked, now scattered.
They look exactly like he would imagine gold bars. The only
thing wrong with that theory is that there are way too many
of them down there for them to be gold bars. It is like when
he turned over rotten logs in Wisconsin and found thousands
of identical insect eggs sown on the dark earth, glowing with
promise.

For a moment, he's tempted. The amount of money down there
is beyond calculation. If he could get his hands on just
one of those bars-

The explosives must have detonated, because Bobby Shaftoe
has just gone deaf. That's his cue to get the f*ck out of
here. He forgets about the gold-morphine's good enough
plunder for one day. He half scrambles and half climbs up
the grid, up the passageway, up the skipper's cabin, smoke
pouring out of its hatch, its bulkheads now weirdly ballooned
by the blast wave.

Danke,
--
Don.......My cat's )\._.,--....,'``. https://crcomp.net/reviews.php
telltale tall tail /, _.. \ _\ (`._ ,.
tells tall tales.. `._.-(,_..'--(,_..'`-.;.'
William Hyde
2021-09-02 21:33:58 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Paul S Person
On Wed, 1 Sep 2021 16:56:16 -0700 (PDT), William Hyde
Post by William Hyde
Post by Paul S Person
On Tue, 31 Aug 2021 13:14:10 -0700 (PDT), Robert Carnegie
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by Paul S Person
On Mon, 30 Aug 2021 18:25:58 -0400, J. Clarke
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by j***@panix.com
Post by j***@panix.com
Five Works About Preserving or Destroying Books
https://www.tor.com/2021/08/30/five-works-about-preserving-or-destroying-books/
Although not the main theme, Vernor Vinge's "Rainbows End" details the
procedures whereby every book in a library is destroyed by an
eviscerating machine which photographs every torn piece and reproduces
every book electronically. So, both preserving and destroying.
Does he give any reason why it's necessary to do it that way?
Probably realistic. A commonplace way to store a book electronically
is to clamp it between a couple of pieces of plywood, saw the spine
off, then run the separated pages through a scanner. Of course the
book isn't good for much after that. I guess it could be rebound but
it wouldn't be a very strong binding.
Ah ... but in /Rainbow's End/ it isn't pages that are photographed
(scanned/digitized), it is bits of pages. Which are blown about and
all mixed up, IIRC.
This requires an AI able to fit the individual bits together properly
"from context". I don't think it would be practical today.
The real life application of the method is to restore
destructively shredded documents.
I do not see a composition date on web page about East German files
<https://www.ironcurtainproject.eu/en/stories/apologies-from-a-minister-president/45-million-stasi-archive-shreds-glue-that/>
and reading closely, they wore their shredding machines out
and resorted to tearing up records by hand. So, not exactly
what I thought.
Call that restoration effort anti-espionage, but
actual espionage may be where the money is in it,
not social history.
That film about rescuing Canadians from Iran (/Argo/???)
Not as good as the one where Washington punches out George III on
Dover beach, when America in 1778 comes to the rescue of a hard-pressed
France.
Loved that movie.
As Dorothy has asked, twice, what movie are you referring to?
I'm not sure where the comparison lies. The film I am thinking of is
supposed to be "based" (that is, "at least vaguely related to") on
actual events. Yours appears to be in direct contradiction to actual
events.
Were there no embassy personnel that escaped capture in Iran? Were
they not Canadian? Were they, for example, Americans who were hiding
in the Canadian Embassy and I simply confused myself?
Yes, but you are not alone.

William Hyde
Quadibloc
2021-09-03 00:00:40 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Paul S Person
Were there no embassy personnel that escaped capture in Iran? Were
they not Canadian? Were they, for example, Americans who were hiding
in the Canadian Embassy and I simply confused myself?
They were indeed Americans hiding in the Canadian Embassy.

John Savard
pete...@gmail.com
2021-09-03 02:52:44 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Paul S Person
On Wed, 1 Sep 2021 16:56:16 -0700 (PDT), William Hyde
Post by William Hyde
Post by Paul S Person
On Tue, 31 Aug 2021 13:14:10 -0700 (PDT), Robert Carnegie
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by Paul S Person
On Mon, 30 Aug 2021 18:25:58 -0400, J. Clarke
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by j***@panix.com
Post by j***@panix.com
Five Works About Preserving or Destroying Books
https://www.tor.com/2021/08/30/five-works-about-preserving-or-destroying-books/
Although not the main theme, Vernor Vinge's "Rainbows End" details the
procedures whereby every book in a library is destroyed by an
eviscerating machine which photographs every torn piece and reproduces
every book electronically. So, both preserving and destroying.
Does he give any reason why it's necessary to do it that way?
Probably realistic. A commonplace way to store a book electronically
is to clamp it between a couple of pieces of plywood, saw the spine
off, then run the separated pages through a scanner. Of course the
book isn't good for much after that. I guess it could be rebound but
it wouldn't be a very strong binding.
Ah ... but in /Rainbow's End/ it isn't pages that are photographed
(scanned/digitized), it is bits of pages. Which are blown about and
all mixed up, IIRC.
This requires an AI able to fit the individual bits together properly
"from context". I don't think it would be practical today.
The real life application of the method is to restore
destructively shredded documents.
I do not see a composition date on web page about East German files
<https://www.ironcurtainproject.eu/en/stories/apologies-from-a-minister-president/45-million-stasi-archive-shreds-glue-that/>
and reading closely, they wore their shredding machines out
and resorted to tearing up records by hand. So, not exactly
what I thought.
Call that restoration effort anti-espionage, but
actual espionage may be where the money is in it,
not social history.
That film about rescuing Canadians from Iran (/Argo/???)
Not as good as the one where Washington punches out George III on
Dover beach, when America in 1778 comes to the rescue of a hard-pressed
France.
Loved that movie.
As Dorothy has asked, twice, what movie are you referring to?
I'm not sure where the comparison lies. The film I am thinking of is
supposed to be "based" (that is, "at least vaguely related to") on
actual events. Yours appears to be in direct contradiction to actual
events.
Were there no embassy personnel that escaped capture in Iran? Were
they not Canadian? Were they, for example, Americans who were hiding
in the Canadian Embassy and I simply confused myself?
In short, yes.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argo_(2012_film)

I've seen the movie. It's OK, but I'm also told that the Canadians
had a much bigger role in the escape than the film indicates.

The film in the film 'Argo', was based on Zelazny's 'Lord of Light'.
They had a script, and rough storyboards.

pt
pyotr filipivich
2021-08-30 23:19:09 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by j***@panix.com
Post by j***@panix.com
Five Works About Preserving or Destroying Books
https://www.tor.com/2021/08/30/five-works-about-preserving-or-destroying-books/
Although not the main theme, Vernor Vinge's "Rainbows End" details the
procedures whereby every book in a library is destroyed by an
eviscerating machine which photographs every torn piece and reproduces
every book electronically. So, both preserving and destroying.
Does he give any reason why it's necessary to do it that way?
Because they can, essentially. They're scanning the books, but
the easiest way is by shredding them, photographing all the fragments,
and reassembling the image of the page from those fragments.
--
pyotr filipivich
This Week's Panel: Us & Them - Eliminating Them.
Next Month's Panel: Having eliminated the old Them(tm)
Selecting who insufficiently Woke(tm) as to serve as the new Them(tm)
pete...@gmail.com
2021-08-31 00:31:19 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by j***@panix.com
Post by j***@panix.com
Five Works About Preserving or Destroying Books
https://www.tor.com/2021/08/30/five-works-about-preserving-or-destroying-books/
Although not the main theme, Vernor Vinge's "Rainbows End" details the
procedures whereby every book in a library is destroyed by an
eviscerating machine which photographs every torn piece and reproduces
every book electronically. So, both preserving and destroying.
Does he give any reason why it's necessary to do it that way?
Because they can, essentially. They're scanning the books, but
the easiest way is by shredding them, photographing all the fragments,
and reassembling the image of the page from those fragments.
I honestly think Vinge spent some time coming up with the scanning
method which would maximally offend book lovers.

The book also contains a faction known as The Librarians Militant, who
aren't happy about this.

Remember when the FBI got wound up over "Radical Miilitant LIbrarians"
protecting readers privacy?

https://www.buttonmuseum.org/buttons/radical-militant-librarian

pt
Dorothy J Heydt
2021-08-31 02:37:46 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by ***@gmail.com
Post by j***@panix.com
Post by Titus G
Post by j***@panix.com
Five Works About Preserving or Destroying Books
https://www.tor.com/2021/08/30/five-works-about-preserving-or-destroying-books/
Post by Titus G
Although not the main theme, Vernor Vinge's "Rainbows End" details the
procedures whereby every book in a library is destroyed by an
eviscerating machine which photographs every torn piece and reproduces
every book electronically. So, both preserving and destroying.
Does he give any reason why it's necessary to do it that way?
Because they can, essentially. They're scanning the books, but
the easiest way is by shredding them, photographing all the fragments,
and reassembling the image of the page from those fragments.
I honestly think Vinge spent some time coming up with the scanning
method which would maximally offend book lovers.
The book also contains a faction known as The Librarians Militant, who
aren't happy about this.
Remember when the FBI got wound up over "Radical Miilitant LIbrarians"
protecting readers privacy?
https://www.buttonmuseum.org/buttons/radical-militant-librarian
Nope, that passed straight over my head without even an audible
whoosh.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/
pete...@gmail.com
2021-08-31 03:33:27 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by ***@gmail.com
Post by j***@panix.com
Post by Titus G
Post by j***@panix.com
Five Works About Preserving or Destroying Books
https://www.tor.com/2021/08/30/five-works-about-preserving-or-destroying-books/
Post by Titus G
Although not the main theme, Vernor Vinge's "Rainbows End" details the
procedures whereby every book in a library is destroyed by an
eviscerating machine which photographs every torn piece and reproduces
every book electronically. So, both preserving and destroying.
Does he give any reason why it's necessary to do it that way?
Because they can, essentially. They're scanning the books, but
the easiest way is by shredding them, photographing all the fragments,
and reassembling the image of the page from those fragments.
I honestly think Vinge spent some time coming up with the scanning
method which would maximally offend book lovers.
The book also contains a faction known as The Librarians Militant, who
aren't happy about this.
Remember when the FBI got wound up over "Radical Miilitant LIbrarians"
protecting readers privacy?
https://www.buttonmuseum.org/buttons/radical-militant-librarian
Nope, that passed straight over my head without even an audible
whoosh.
More details:

https://www.nytimes.com/2005/12/11/us/nationalspecial3/at-fbi-frustration-over-limits-on-an-antiterror-law.html

pt
Dorothy J Heydt
2021-08-31 00:24:00 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by pyotr filipivich
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by j***@panix.com
Post by j***@panix.com
Five Works About Preserving or Destroying Books
https://www.tor.com/2021/08/30/five-works-about-preserving-or-destroying-books/
Although not the main theme, Vernor Vinge's "Rainbows End" details the
procedures whereby every book in a library is destroyed by an
eviscerating machine which photographs every torn piece and reproduces
every book electronically. So, both preserving and destroying.
Does he give any reason why it's necessary to do it that way?
Because they can, essentially. They're scanning the books, but
the easiest way is by shredding them, photographing all the fragments,
and reassembling the image of the page from those fragments.
Which makes no sense. See above about the practice of removing
the pages from the spine and scanning those.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/
Titus G
2021-08-31 06:01:04 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by pyotr filipivich
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by j***@panix.com
Post by j***@panix.com
Five Works About Preserving or Destroying Books
https://www.tor.com/2021/08/30/five-works-about-preserving-or-destroying-books/
Although not the main theme, Vernor Vinge's "Rainbows End" details the
procedures whereby every book in a library is destroyed by an
eviscerating machine which photographs every torn piece and reproduces
every book electronically. So, both preserving and destroying.
Does he give any reason why it's necessary to do it that way?
Because they can, essentially. They're scanning the books, but
the easiest way is by shredding them, photographing all the fragments,
and reassembling the image of the page from those fragments.
Which makes no sense. See above about the practice of removing
the pages from the spine and scanning those.
The specialised machine turns every book into confetti whilst
photographing in high resolution every scrap from every angle. I recall
that speed was important because of cost and secrecy. The machine
operates in the library travelling down aisles sucking books off shelves
so it is incredibly efficient compared to spine removal and scanning.
Andrew Love
2021-09-01 21:56:44 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Titus G
The specialised machine turns every book into confetti whilst
photographing in high resolution every scrap from every angle. I recall
that speed was important because of cost and secrecy. The machine
operates in the library travelling down aisles sucking books off shelves
so it is incredibly efficient compared to spine removal and scanning.
I assumed Vinge was riffing on techniques for sequencing DNA by cutting up many copies of the same DNA into random fragments and then using the overlaps to create a single sequence (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shotgun_sequencing) (since the Vinge method is using single copies of each book, instead of overlaps, the machine has to match the (hopefully) unique shape of each tiny fragment of page.
Titus G
2021-09-02 07:02:07 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Andrew Love
Post by Titus G
The specialised machine turns every book into confetti whilst
photographing in high resolution every scrap from every angle. I recall
that speed was important because of cost and secrecy. The machine
operates in the library travelling down aisles sucking books off shelves
so it is incredibly efficient compared to spine removal and scanning.
I assumed Vinge was riffing on techniques for sequencing DNA by cutting up many copies of the same DNA into random fragments and then using the overlaps to create a single sequence (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shotgun_sequencing) (since the Vinge method is using single copies of each book, instead of overlaps, the machine has to match the (hopefully) unique shape of each tiny fragment of page.
A bit over my head without following your links. Confetti was probably
the wrong term as some of the pieces were quite large. The "Vinge
method" introduced in the library in Rainbows End was to be replicated
in libraries all over the world so there would be plenty of duplicates
to verify the original.
Paul S Person
2021-09-02 16:06:52 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Titus G
Post by Andrew Love
Post by Titus G
The specialised machine turns every book into confetti whilst
photographing in high resolution every scrap from every angle. I recall
that speed was important because of cost and secrecy. The machine
operates in the library travelling down aisles sucking books off shelves
so it is incredibly efficient compared to spine removal and scanning.
I assumed Vinge was riffing on techniques for sequencing DNA by cutting up many copies of the same DNA into random fragments and then using the overlaps to create a single sequence (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shotgun_sequencing) (since the Vinge method is using single copies of each book, instead of overlaps, the machine has to match the (hopefully) unique shape of each tiny fragment of page.
A bit over my head without following your links. Confetti was probably
the wrong term as some of the pieces were quite large. The "Vinge
method" introduced in the library in Rainbows End was to be replicated
in libraries all over the world so there would be plenty of duplicates
to verify the original.
Or plenty of choices as to which was, in fact, the original and which
a mish-mash of unrelated books that only /resembled/ the original.
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."
a***@yahoo.com
2021-08-31 13:57:42 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by j***@panix.com
Five Works About Preserving or Destroying Books
https://www.tor.com/2021/08/30/five-works-about-preserving-or-destroying-books/
Genetic Soldier by George Turner also involves an important library.
Thomas Koenig
2021-09-02 10:21:09 UTC
Reply
Permalink
King David's Spaceship by Jerry Pournelle has a library as an important
plot element. After the breakup of the first interstellar empire,
second empire Imperial Navy ships eventually locate a lost colony world,
Prince Samuel's World, where a planetary war for dominance is under way.
Agents of the king discover that the Imperials will treat them as a
colony once the planet is united under one king unless they have
achieved spaceflight. Their technology is more or less at about
1900-1910AD levels, and they need something better. The Empire offers
them a trading expedition to nearby Makassar, which is still very
backwards and has nothing of interest, but they find out that there is
an old pre-collapse First Empire library there in a monastery, which
might contain data about developing space technologies. The library has
much information on rocket drives that they have no chance of developing
in time, but they find one obscure reference to a technique they could
use, and then...
Cannae.
Robert Woodward
2021-09-02 17:18:15 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by j***@panix.com
Five Works About Preserving or Destroying Books
https://www.tor.com/2021/08/30/five-works-about-preserving-or-destroying-boo
ks/
King David's Spaceship by Jerry Pournelle has a library as an important
plot element. After the breakup of the first interstellar empire,
second empire Imperial Navy ships eventually locate a lost colony world,
Prince Samuel's World, where a planetary war for dominance is under way.
Agents of the king discover that the Imperials will treat them as a
colony once the planet is united under one king unless they have
achieved spaceflight. Their technology is more or less at about
1900-1910AD levels, and they need something better. The Empire offers
them a trading expedition to nearby Makassar, which is still very
backwards and has nothing of interest, but they find out that there is
an old pre-collapse First Empire library there in a monastery, which
might contain data about developing space technologies. The library has
much information on rocket drives that they have no chance of developing
in time, but they find one obscure reference to a technique they could
use, and then...
Which shouldn't work, since their propulsion system wouldn't have the
ISP to do the job (unless Prince Samuel's World is small enough,
anything close to Earth's mass is too big).
--
"We have advanced to new and surprising levels of bafflement."
Imperial Auditor Miles Vorkosigan describes progress in _Komarr_.
—-----------------------------------------------------
Robert Woodward ***@drizzle.com
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