Discussion:
"Starlink is a very big deal"
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Lynn McGuire
2021-04-21 01:40:47 UTC
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"Starlink is a very big deal"

https://caseyhandmer.wordpress.com/2019/11/02/starlink-is-a-very-big-deal/

"One final point is to compare the revenue per Watt of solar power
generated for Starlink. Each satellite’s solar array is about 60 sqm
according to photographs on the website, which means that they generate
an average of around 3kW, or 4.5kWh, over an entire orbit. With a
ballpark estimate of $1000 of revenue per orbit, each satellite is
generating about $220/kWh. This is 10,000 times the wholesale cost of
solar-generated electricity, once again demonstrating that space-based
solar power is a losing proposition. Modulating microwaves with data is
an enormous value-add!"

Apparently, SpaceX is starting another business to run next to StarLink,
StarPower. Solar Power satellites to portable microwave receivers. It
will probably melt the snow off your roof too.

Jerry Pournelle would have been so happy.

Lynn
J. Clarke
2021-04-21 01:50:33 UTC
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Permalink
On Tue, 20 Apr 2021 20:40:47 -0500, Lynn McGuire
Post by Lynn McGuire
"Starlink is a very big deal"
https://caseyhandmer.wordpress.com/2019/11/02/starlink-is-a-very-big-deal/
"One final point is to compare the revenue per Watt of solar power
generated for Starlink. Each satellite’s solar array is about 60 sqm
according to photographs on the website, which means that they generate
an average of around 3kW, or 4.5kWh, over an entire orbit. With a
ballpark estimate of $1000 of revenue per orbit, each satellite is
generating about $220/kWh. This is 10,000 times the wholesale cost of
solar-generated electricity, once again demonstrating that space-based
solar power is a losing proposition. Modulating microwaves with data is
an enormous value-add!"
So you're saying that the price of Starlink internet is based on the
cost of solar power? If not then what are you trying to say?
Post by Lynn McGuire
Apparently, SpaceX is starting another business to run next to StarLink,
StarPower. Solar Power satellites to portable microwave receivers. It
will probably melt the snow off your roof too.
Jerry Pournelle would have been so happy.
Lynn
pete...@gmail.com
2021-04-21 02:30:16 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by J. Clarke
On Tue, 20 Apr 2021 20:40:47 -0500, Lynn McGuire
Post by Lynn McGuire
"Starlink is a very big deal"
https://caseyhandmer.wordpress.com/2019/11/02/starlink-is-a-very-big-deal/
"One final point is to compare the revenue per Watt of solar power
generated for Starlink. Each satellite’s solar array is about 60 sqm
according to photographs on the website, which means that they generate
an average of around 3kW, or 4.5kWh, over an entire orbit. With a
ballpark estimate of $1000 of revenue per orbit, each satellite is
generating about $220/kWh. This is 10,000 times the wholesale cost of
solar-generated electricity, once again demonstrating that space-based
solar power is a losing proposition. Modulating microwaves with data is
an enormous value-add!"
So you're saying that the price of Starlink internet is based on the
cost of solar power? If not then what are you trying to say?
Post by Lynn McGuire
Apparently, SpaceX is starting another business to run next to StarLink,
StarPower. Solar Power satellites to portable microwave receivers. It
will probably melt the snow off your roof too.
Jerry Pournelle would have been so happy.
Go look at the article that Lynn cites. It's extremely speculative, and the satellite
solar power business is nothing that I've ever heard of: I follow SpaceX and Tesla
very closely. It also makes basic errors, in that it assumes that starlink can serve
densely populated areas. It cannot.

I'm afraid Lynn is not being careful about the quality of his
information sources.

Pt
Lynn McGuire
2021-04-21 05:59:02 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by ***@gmail.com
Go look at the article that Lynn cites. It's extremely speculative, and the satellite
solar power business is nothing that I've ever heard of: I follow SpaceX and Tesla
very closely. It also makes basic errors, in that it assumes that starlink can serve
densely populated areas. It cannot.
I'm afraid Lynn is not being careful about the quality of his
information sources.
Pt
How do you know that Starlink cannot serve densely populated areas ? Do
you know of a technical reference that I can read ?

My office is in an area that is a cross between suburban and rural. My
home is 4 miles further out.

Lynn
J. Clarke
2021-04-21 10:33:43 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Wed, 21 Apr 2021 00:59:02 -0500, Lynn McGuire
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by ***@gmail.com
Go look at the article that Lynn cites. It's extremely speculative, and the satellite
solar power business is nothing that I've ever heard of: I follow SpaceX and Tesla
very closely. It also makes basic errors, in that it assumes that starlink can serve
densely populated areas. It cannot.
I'm afraid Lynn is not being careful about the quality of his
information sources.
Pt
How do you know that Starlink cannot serve densely populated areas ? Do
you know of a technical reference that I can read ?
It's not that is cannot serve them. It's that it can't support enough
channels to be the primary service in areas of high population
density.

Here's an article that quotes Elon Musk on that topic:
<https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2020/08/spacex-now-plans-for-5-million-starlink-customers-in-us-up-from-1-million/>
Post by Lynn McGuire
My office is in an area that is a cross between suburban and rural. My
home is 4 miles further out.
If Cox cuts out on me a few more times I may get Starlink as a backup.
Lynn McGuire
2021-04-21 20:13:35 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by J. Clarke
On Wed, 21 Apr 2021 00:59:02 -0500, Lynn McGuire
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by ***@gmail.com
Go look at the article that Lynn cites. It's extremely speculative, and the satellite
solar power business is nothing that I've ever heard of: I follow SpaceX and Tesla
very closely. It also makes basic errors, in that it assumes that starlink can serve
densely populated areas. It cannot.
I'm afraid Lynn is not being careful about the quality of his
information sources.
Pt
How do you know that Starlink cannot serve densely populated areas ? Do
you know of a technical reference that I can read ?
It's not that is cannot serve them. It's that it can't support enough
channels to be the primary service in areas of high population
density.
<https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2020/08/spacex-now-plans-for-5-million-starlink-customers-in-us-up-from-1-million/>
Post by Lynn McGuire
My office is in an area that is a cross between suburban and rural. My
home is 4 miles further out.
If Cox cuts out on me a few more times I may get Starlink as a backup.
I signed up my business for the beta yesterday and paid my $99.

Lynn
J. Clarke
2021-04-21 20:27:04 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Wed, 21 Apr 2021 15:13:35 -0500, Lynn McGuire
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by J. Clarke
On Wed, 21 Apr 2021 00:59:02 -0500, Lynn McGuire
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by ***@gmail.com
Go look at the article that Lynn cites. It's extremely speculative, and the satellite
solar power business is nothing that I've ever heard of: I follow SpaceX and Tesla
very closely. It also makes basic errors, in that it assumes that starlink can serve
densely populated areas. It cannot.
I'm afraid Lynn is not being careful about the quality of his
information sources.
Pt
How do you know that Starlink cannot serve densely populated areas ? Do
you know of a technical reference that I can read ?
It's not that is cannot serve them. It's that it can't support enough
channels to be the primary service in areas of high population
density.
<https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2020/08/spacex-now-plans-for-5-million-starlink-customers-in-us-up-from-1-million/>
Post by Lynn McGuire
My office is in an area that is a cross between suburban and rural. My
home is 4 miles further out.
If Cox cuts out on me a few more times I may get Starlink as a backup.
I signed up my business for the beta yesterday and paid my $99.
Let us know how it works.
Lynn McGuire
2021-04-21 20:41:52 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by J. Clarke
On Wed, 21 Apr 2021 15:13:35 -0500, Lynn McGuire
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by J. Clarke
On Wed, 21 Apr 2021 00:59:02 -0500, Lynn McGuire
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by ***@gmail.com
Go look at the article that Lynn cites. It's extremely speculative, and the satellite
solar power business is nothing that I've ever heard of: I follow SpaceX and Tesla
very closely. It also makes basic errors, in that it assumes that starlink can serve
densely populated areas. It cannot.
I'm afraid Lynn is not being careful about the quality of his
information sources.
Pt
How do you know that Starlink cannot serve densely populated areas ? Do
you know of a technical reference that I can read ?
It's not that is cannot serve them. It's that it can't support enough
channels to be the primary service in areas of high population
density.
<https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2020/08/spacex-now-plans-for-5-million-starlink-customers-in-us-up-from-1-million/>
Post by Lynn McGuire
My office is in an area that is a cross between suburban and rural. My
home is 4 miles further out.
If Cox cuts out on me a few more times I may get Starlink as a backup.
I signed up my business for the beta yesterday and paid my $99.
Let us know how it works.
They said that Starlink should be available in south Texas in late 2021.
The satellite antenna charge is $500 one time and the monthly Starlink
charge is $99.

I do have AT&T fiber at the edge of my 14 acre office property. They
want $472/month for a 10/10 mbps connection with a three year contract.
Not gonna happen. I currently have two AT&T DSL lines using a Peplink
30 WAN merge box that I pay $160/month for.

Lynn
Dimensional Traveler
2021-04-21 17:10:23 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by ***@gmail.com
Go look at the article that Lynn cites. It's extremely speculative, and the satellite
solar power business is nothing that I've ever heard of: I follow SpaceX and Tesla
very closely. It also makes basic errors, in that it assumes that starlink can serve
densely populated areas. It cannot.
I'm afraid Lynn is not being careful about the quality of his
information sources.
Pt
How do you know that Starlink cannot serve densely populated areas ?  Do
you know of a technical reference that I can read ?
My office is in an area that is a cross between suburban and rural.  My
home is 4 miles further out.
"Starlink is available to a limited number of users per coverage area at
this time."

https://www.starlink.com/
--
Troll, troll, troll your post gently down the thread
Angrily, angrily, angrily, the net's a nut's scream.
Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
2021-04-21 17:14:44 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Dimensional Traveler
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by ***@gmail.com
Go look at the article that Lynn cites. It's extremely
speculative, and the satellite
solar power business is nothing that I've ever heard of: I
follow SpaceX and Tesla
very closely. It also makes basic errors, in that it assumes
that starlink can serve
densely populated areas. It cannot.
I'm afraid Lynn is not being careful about the quality of his
information sources.
Pt
How do you know that Starlink cannot serve densely populated
areas ?  Do you know of a technical reference that I can read
?
My office is in an area that is a cross between suburban and
rural.  My home is 4 miles further out.
"Starlink is available to a limited number of users per coverage
area at this time."
https://www.starlink.com/
The key qualifier being "at this time." According to Wikipedia,
there are currently less than 1,500 satellites, out of an eventual
30,000 (approved so far).

I'm sure it will still be a "limited number per coverage area," but
that limit will likely be much, much higher.
--
Terry Austin

Proof that Alan Baker is a liar and a fool, and even stupider than
Lynn:
https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/stats/sw-border-migration
(May 2019 total for people arrested for entering the United States
illegally is over 132,000 for just the southwest border.)

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB
Lynn McGuire
2021-04-22 02:04:21 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
Post by Dimensional Traveler
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by ***@gmail.com
Go look at the article that Lynn cites. It's extremely
speculative, and the satellite
solar power business is nothing that I've ever heard of: I
follow SpaceX and Tesla
very closely. It also makes basic errors, in that it assumes that starlink can serve
densely populated areas. It cannot.
I'm afraid Lynn is not being careful about the quality of his
information sources.
Pt
How do you know that Starlink cannot serve densely populated
areas ?  Do you know of a technical reference that I can read
?
My office is in an area that is a cross between suburban and
rural.  My home is 4 miles further out.
"Starlink is available to a limited number of users per coverage
area at this time."
https://www.starlink.com/
The key qualifier being "at this time." According to Wikipedia,
there are currently less than 1,500 satellites, out of an eventual
30,000 (approved so far).
I'm sure it will still be a "limited number per coverage area," but
that limit will likely be much, much higher.
Cringely says that 40,000 Starlink satellites will handle all 300
million internet users in the USA. Plus the world. "The lightbulb went
off just before SpaceX started dramatically increasing its estimate of
the total number of satellites required. Required for what? One recent
estimate has the number at 40,000, which would be enough to serve every
Internet user on Earth, PLUS IoT, plus any other network services as yet
uninvented."

https://www.cringely.com/2021/04/20/starlink-is-a-global-isp-built-at-zero-cost-to-spacex-enabling-nasas-artemis-launch/

I have no idea how he calculated 40,000 satellites. Probably is a SWAG
(scientific wild assed guess).

Lynn
J. Clarke
2021-04-22 09:28:20 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Wed, 21 Apr 2021 21:04:21 -0500, Lynn McGuire
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
Post by Dimensional Traveler
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by ***@gmail.com
Go look at the article that Lynn cites. It's extremely
speculative, and the satellite
solar power business is nothing that I've ever heard of: I
follow SpaceX and Tesla
very closely. It also makes basic errors, in that it assumes
that starlink can serve
densely populated areas. It cannot.
I'm afraid Lynn is not being careful about the quality of his
information sources.
Pt
How do you know that Starlink cannot serve densely populated
areas ?  Do you know of a technical reference that I can read
?
My office is in an area that is a cross between suburban and
rural.  My home is 4 miles further out.
"Starlink is available to a limited number of users per coverage
area at this time."
https://www.starlink.com/
The key qualifier being "at this time." According to Wikipedia,
there are currently less than 1,500 satellites, out of an eventual
30,000 (approved so far).
I'm sure it will still be a "limited number per coverage area," but
that limit will likely be much, much higher.
Cringely says that 40,000 Starlink satellites will handle all 300
million internet users in the USA. Plus the world. "The lightbulb went
off just before SpaceX started dramatically increasing its estimate of
the total number of satellites required. Required for what? One recent
estimate has the number at 40,000, which would be enough to serve every
Internet user on Earth, PLUS IoT, plus any other network services as yet
uninvented."
https://www.cringely.com/2021/04/20/starlink-is-a-global-isp-built-at-zero-cost-to-spacex-enabling-nasas-artemis-launch/
I have no idea how he calculated 40,000 satellites. Probably is a SWAG
(scientific wild assed guess).
Elon Musk says "Important to knote that cellular will always have the
advantage in dense urban areas". I think he knows more about Starlink
than "cringely" does.
Lynn McGuire
2021-04-22 23:17:11 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by J. Clarke
On Wed, 21 Apr 2021 21:04:21 -0500, Lynn McGuire
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
Post by Dimensional Traveler
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by ***@gmail.com
Go look at the article that Lynn cites. It's extremely
speculative, and the satellite
solar power business is nothing that I've ever heard of: I
follow SpaceX and Tesla
very closely. It also makes basic errors, in that it assumes
that starlink can serve
densely populated areas. It cannot.
I'm afraid Lynn is not being careful about the quality of his
information sources.
Pt
How do you know that Starlink cannot serve densely populated
areas ?  Do you know of a technical reference that I can read
?
My office is in an area that is a cross between suburban and
rural.  My home is 4 miles further out.
"Starlink is available to a limited number of users per coverage
area at this time."
https://www.starlink.com/
The key qualifier being "at this time." According to Wikipedia,
there are currently less than 1,500 satellites, out of an eventual
30,000 (approved so far).
I'm sure it will still be a "limited number per coverage area," but
that limit will likely be much, much higher.
Cringely says that 40,000 Starlink satellites will handle all 300
million internet users in the USA. Plus the world. "The lightbulb went
off just before SpaceX started dramatically increasing its estimate of
the total number of satellites required. Required for what? One recent
estimate has the number at 40,000, which would be enough to serve every
Internet user on Earth, PLUS IoT, plus any other network services as yet
uninvented."
https://www.cringely.com/2021/04/20/starlink-is-a-global-isp-built-at-zero-cost-to-spacex-enabling-nasas-artemis-launch/
I have no idea how he calculated 40,000 satellites. Probably is a SWAG
(scientific wild assed guess).
Elon Musk says "Important to knote that cellular will always have the
advantage in dense urban areas". I think he knows more about Starlink
than "cringely" does.
You can get 100/10 mbps on cellular ???

Lynn
Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
2021-04-22 23:30:41 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by J. Clarke
On Wed, 21 Apr 2021 21:04:21 -0500, Lynn McGuire
On 4/21/2021 12:14 PM, Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
Post by Dimensional Traveler
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by ***@gmail.com
Go look at the article that Lynn cites. It's extremely
speculative, and the satellite
solar power business is nothing that I've ever heard of: I
follow SpaceX and Tesla
very closely. It also makes basic errors, in that it
assumes that starlink can serve
densely populated areas. It cannot.
I'm afraid Lynn is not being careful about the quality of
his information sources.
Pt
How do you know that Starlink cannot serve densely
populated areas ?  Do you know of a technical reference
that I can read ?
My office is in an area that is a cross between suburban
and rural.  My home is 4 miles further out.
"Starlink is available to a limited number of users per
coverage area at this time."
https://www.starlink.com/
The key qualifier being "at this time." According to
Wikipedia, there are currently less than 1,500 satellites,
out of an eventual 30,000 (approved so far).
I'm sure it will still be a "limited number per coverage
area," but that limit will likely be much, much higher.
Cringely says that 40,000 Starlink satellites will handle all
300 million internet users in the USA. Plus the world. "The
lightbulb went off just before SpaceX started dramatically
increasing its estimate of the total number of satellites
required. Required for what? One recent estimate has the
number at 40,000, which would be enough to serve every
Internet user on Earth, PLUS IoT, plus any other network
services as yet uninvented."
https://www.cringely.com/2021/04/20/starlink-is-a-global-isp-bu
ilt-at-zero-cost-to-spacex-enabling-nasas-artemis-launch/
I have no idea how he calculated 40,000 satellites. Probably
is a SWAG (scientific wild assed guess).
Elon Musk says "Important to knote that cellular will always
have the advantage in dense urban areas". I think he knows
more about Starlink than "cringely" does.
You can get 100/10 mbps on cellular ???
I just did a speed test on my phone. 153.3 mbps download, 30.1
upload. Inside an office that was part of the refrigeration system
for the meat locker when this was a grocery store, so reinforced
concrete walls. (This is 4G, not 5G, which is capable of being
faster, though it often isn't.)

So yes, you can.
--
Terry Austin

Proof that Alan Baker is a liar and a fool, and even stupider than
Lynn:
https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/stats/sw-border-migration
(May 2019 total for people arrested for entering the United States
illegally is over 132,000 for just the southwest border.)

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB
J. Clarke
2021-04-23 00:30:56 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Thu, 22 Apr 2021 18:17:11 -0500, Lynn McGuire
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by J. Clarke
On Wed, 21 Apr 2021 21:04:21 -0500, Lynn McGuire
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
Post by Dimensional Traveler
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by ***@gmail.com
Go look at the article that Lynn cites. It's extremely
speculative, and the satellite
solar power business is nothing that I've ever heard of: I
follow SpaceX and Tesla
very closely. It also makes basic errors, in that it assumes
that starlink can serve
densely populated areas. It cannot.
I'm afraid Lynn is not being careful about the quality of his
information sources.
Pt
How do you know that Starlink cannot serve densely populated
areas ?  Do you know of a technical reference that I can read
?
My office is in an area that is a cross between suburban and
rural.  My home is 4 miles further out.
"Starlink is available to a limited number of users per coverage
area at this time."
https://www.starlink.com/
The key qualifier being "at this time." According to Wikipedia,
there are currently less than 1,500 satellites, out of an eventual
30,000 (approved so far).
I'm sure it will still be a "limited number per coverage area," but
that limit will likely be much, much higher.
Cringely says that 40,000 Starlink satellites will handle all 300
million internet users in the USA. Plus the world. "The lightbulb went
off just before SpaceX started dramatically increasing its estimate of
the total number of satellites required. Required for what? One recent
estimate has the number at 40,000, which would be enough to serve every
Internet user on Earth, PLUS IoT, plus any other network services as yet
uninvented."
https://www.cringely.com/2021/04/20/starlink-is-a-global-isp-built-at-zero-cost-to-spacex-enabling-nasas-artemis-launch/
I have no idea how he calculated 40,000 satellites. Probably is a SWAG
(scientific wild assed guess).
Elon Musk says "Important to knote that cellular will always have the
advantage in dense urban areas". I think he knows more about Starlink
than "cringely" does.
You can get 100/10 mbps on cellular ???
With good signal 100/50 is possible with LTE.
Post by Lynn McGuire
Lynn
Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
2021-04-22 17:32:30 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
Post by Dimensional Traveler
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by ***@gmail.com
Go look at the article that Lynn cites. It's extremely
speculative, and the satellite
solar power business is nothing that I've ever heard of: I
follow SpaceX and Tesla
very closely. It also makes basic errors, in that it assumes
that starlink can serve
densely populated areas. It cannot.
I'm afraid Lynn is not being careful about the quality of
his information sources.
Pt
How do you know that Starlink cannot serve densely populated
areas ?  Do you know of a technical reference that I can
read ?
My office is in an area that is a cross between suburban and
rural.  My home is 4 miles further out.
"Starlink is available to a limited number of users per
coverage area at this time."
https://www.starlink.com/
The key qualifier being "at this time." According to Wikipedia,
there are currently less than 1,500 satellites, out of an
eventual 30,000 (approved so far).
I'm sure it will still be a "limited number per coverage area,"
but that limit will likely be much, much higher.
Cringely says that 40,000 Starlink satellites will handle all
300 million internet users in the USA. Plus the world. "The
lightbulb went off just before SpaceX started dramatically
increasing its estimate of the total number of satellites
required. Required for what? One recent estimate has the number
at 40,000, which would be enough to serve every Internet user
on Earth, PLUS IoT, plus any other network services as yet
uninvented."
https://www.cringely.com/2021/04/20/starlink-is-a-global-isp-buil
t-at-zero-cost-to-spacex-enabling-nasas-artemis-launch/
I have no idea how he calculated 40,000 satellites. Probably is
a SWAG (scientific wild assed guess).
I've nver been impressed with Cringley's impressiveness as he is
with himself.

But it'll be interesting if he's right.
--
Terry Austin

Proof that Alan Baker is a liar and a fool, and even stupider than
Lynn:
https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/stats/sw-border-migration
(May 2019 total for people arrested for entering the United States
illegally is over 132,000 for just the southwest border.)

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB
Robert Carnegie
2021-04-21 09:39:49 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by ***@gmail.com
Post by J. Clarke
On Tue, 20 Apr 2021 20:40:47 -0500, Lynn McGuire
Post by Lynn McGuire
"Starlink is a very big deal"
https://caseyhandmer.wordpress.com/2019/11/02/starlink-is-a-very-big-deal/
"One final point is to compare the revenue per Watt of solar power
generated for Starlink. Each satellite’s solar array is about 60 sqm
according to photographs on the website, which means that they generate
an average of around 3kW, or 4.5kWh, over an entire orbit. With a
ballpark estimate of $1000 of revenue per orbit, each satellite is
generating about $220/kWh. This is 10,000 times the wholesale cost of
solar-generated electricity, once again demonstrating that space-based
solar power is a losing proposition. Modulating microwaves with data is
an enormous value-add!"
So you're saying that the price of Starlink internet is based on the
cost of solar power? If not then what are you trying to say?
Post by Lynn McGuire
Apparently, SpaceX is starting another business to run next to StarLink,
StarPower. Solar Power satellites to portable microwave receivers. It
will probably melt the snow off your roof too.
Jerry Pournelle would have been so happy.
Go look at the article that Lynn cites. It's extremely speculative, and the satellite
solar power business is nothing that I've ever heard of: I follow SpaceX and Tesla
very closely. It also makes basic errors, in that it assumes that starlink can serve
densely populated areas. It cannot.
I'm afraid Lynn is not being careful about the quality of his
information sources.
This is rec.arts.sf.written and I was wondering
where the science fiction is in this, until Jerry Pournelle
appeared. And at that, he's not really /fictional./
Lynn McGuire
2021-04-21 20:14:52 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by ***@gmail.com
Post by J. Clarke
On Tue, 20 Apr 2021 20:40:47 -0500, Lynn McGuire
Post by Lynn McGuire
"Starlink is a very big deal"
https://caseyhandmer.wordpress.com/2019/11/02/starlink-is-a-very-big-deal/
"One final point is to compare the revenue per Watt of solar power
generated for Starlink. Each satellite’s solar array is about 60 sqm
according to photographs on the website, which means that they generate
an average of around 3kW, or 4.5kWh, over an entire orbit. With a
ballpark estimate of $1000 of revenue per orbit, each satellite is
generating about $220/kWh. This is 10,000 times the wholesale cost of
solar-generated electricity, once again demonstrating that space-based
solar power is a losing proposition. Modulating microwaves with data is
an enormous value-add!"
So you're saying that the price of Starlink internet is based on the
cost of solar power? If not then what are you trying to say?
Post by Lynn McGuire
Apparently, SpaceX is starting another business to run next to StarLink,
StarPower. Solar Power satellites to portable microwave receivers. It
will probably melt the snow off your roof too.
Jerry Pournelle would have been so happy.
Go look at the article that Lynn cites. It's extremely speculative, and the satellite
solar power business is nothing that I've ever heard of: I follow SpaceX and Tesla
very closely. It also makes basic errors, in that it assumes that starlink can serve
densely populated areas. It cannot.
I'm afraid Lynn is not being careful about the quality of his
information sources.
This is rec.arts.sf.written and I was wondering
where the science fiction is in this, until Jerry Pournelle
appeared. And at that, he's not really /fictional./
Solar Power Satellites have been discussed in many SF books. JEP was a
big proponent of them before he passed on to his reward.

Lynn
Lynn McGuire
2021-04-21 02:39:04 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by J. Clarke
On Tue, 20 Apr 2021 20:40:47 -0500, Lynn McGuire
Post by Lynn McGuire
"Starlink is a very big deal"
https://caseyhandmer.wordpress.com/2019/11/02/starlink-is-a-very-big-deal/
"One final point is to compare the revenue per Watt of solar power
generated for Starlink. Each satellite’s solar array is about 60 sqm
according to photographs on the website, which means that they generate
an average of around 3kW, or 4.5kWh, over an entire orbit. With a
ballpark estimate of $1000 of revenue per orbit, each satellite is
generating about $220/kWh. This is 10,000 times the wholesale cost of
solar-generated electricity, once again demonstrating that space-based
solar power is a losing proposition. Modulating microwaves with data is
an enormous value-add!"
So you're saying that the price of Starlink internet is based on the
cost of solar power? If not then what are you trying to say?
Post by Lynn McGuire
Apparently, SpaceX is starting another business to run next to StarLink,
StarPower. Solar Power satellites to portable microwave receivers. It
will probably melt the snow off your roof too.
Jerry Pournelle would have been so happy.
Lynn
I am saying that there is a potential business of selling solar power
from orbit to a land based microwave power receiver. Each Starlink
satellite has a 3 kW solar power panel. Only half of the power is
needed for the satellite, they might could sell the rest.

And yes, this is very speculative.

Lynn
Scott Lurndal
2021-04-21 14:53:01 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Lynn McGuire
"Starlink is a very big deal"
https://caseyhandmer.wordpress.com/2019/11/02/starlink-is-a-very-big-deal/
"One final point is to compare the revenue per Watt of solar power
generated for Starlink. Each satellite’s solar array is about 60 sqm
according to photographs on the website, which means that they generate
an average of around 3kW, or 4.5kWh, over an entire orbit. With a
ballpark estimate of $1000 of revenue per orbit, each satellite is
generating about $220/kWh. This is 10,000 times the wholesale cost of
solar-generated electricity, once again demonstrating that space-based
solar power is a losing proposition. Modulating microwaves with data is
an enormous value-add!"
Apparently, SpaceX is starting another business to run next to StarLink,
StarPower. Solar Power satellites to portable microwave receivers. It
will probably melt the snow off your roof too.
No, it won't "melt the snow off your roof".
John Halpenny
2021-04-21 17:08:16 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Scott Lurndal
Post by Lynn McGuire
"Starlink is a very big deal"
https://caseyhandmer.wordpress.com/2019/11/02/starlink-is-a-very-big-deal/
"One final point is to compare the revenue per Watt of solar power
generated for Starlink. Each satellite’s solar array is about 60 sqm
according to photographs on the website, which means that they generate
an average of around 3kW, or 4.5kWh, over an entire orbit. With a
ballpark estimate of $1000 of revenue per orbit, each satellite is
generating about $220/kWh. This is 10,000 times the wholesale cost of
solar-generated electricity, once again demonstrating that space-based
solar power is a losing proposition. Modulating microwaves with data is
an enormous value-add!"
Apparently, SpaceX is starting another business to run next to StarLink,
StarPower. Solar Power satellites to portable microwave receivers. It
will probably melt the snow off your roof too.
No, it won't "melt the snow off your roof".
These satellites are in low earth orbit, so half of the time they are on the night side of the earth, and receive no sunlight. During the day, the ground station can use solar panels directly much more easily than satellite power. During the night, when the ground station is in the dark, so is the satellite. There may be a short period of an hour or two when the satellite power is useful.

John
Scott Lurndal
2021-04-21 18:24:46 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Scott Lurndal
Apparently, SpaceX is starting another business to run next to StarLink,=
=20
Post by Scott Lurndal
StarPower. Solar Power satellites to portable microwave receivers. It=20
will probably melt the snow off your roof too.
No, it won't "melt the snow off your roof".
These satellites are in low earth orbit, so half of the time they are on th=
e night side of the earth, and receive no sunlight.
That is indeed, true. My point was that the microwave power density will be
below 100w/m2, which is less than 10% of the solar energy also reaching the
earths surface (the sun's energy is 1360w/m2).
Robert Carnegie
2021-04-21 18:57:29 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by John Halpenny
Post by Scott Lurndal
Apparently, SpaceX is starting another business to run next to StarLink,=
=20
Post by Scott Lurndal
StarPower. Solar Power satellites to portable microwave receivers. It=20
will probably melt the snow off your roof too.
No, it won't "melt the snow off your roof".
I'm trying to remember where I recently saw coverage
that indirectly implies it would be a good idea. Quora?
That Canadian roofs currently are meant to stand up
to quite a lot of snow, but sometimes don't.
Post by John Halpenny
These satellites are in low earth orbit, so half of the time they are on
the night side of the earth, and receive no sunlight.
That is indeed, true. My point was that the microwave power density will be
below 100w/m2, which is less than 10% of the solar energy also reaching the
earths surface (the sun's energy is 1360w/m2).
Converting all of the solar energy to electricity is tricky.
But I suppose you need about the same area of solar panel
in space to capture energy, that you need on the ground.
It is just easier real-estate-wise... and you can fly /those/
birds in almost-perpetual sunshine.
J. Clarke
2021-04-21 20:31:09 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Wed, 21 Apr 2021 11:57:29 -0700 (PDT), Robert Carnegie
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by John Halpenny
Post by Scott Lurndal
Apparently, SpaceX is starting another business to run next to StarLink,=
=20
Post by Scott Lurndal
StarPower. Solar Power satellites to portable microwave receivers. It=20
will probably melt the snow off your roof too.
No, it won't "melt the snow off your roof".
I'm trying to remember where I recently saw coverage
that indirectly implies it would be a good idea. Quora?
That Canadian roofs currently are meant to stand up
to quite a lot of snow, but sometimes don't.
Post by John Halpenny
These satellites are in low earth orbit, so half of the time they are on
the night side of the earth, and receive no sunlight.
That is indeed, true. My point was that the microwave power density will be
below 100w/m2, which is less than 10% of the solar energy also reaching the
earths surface (the sun's energy is 1360w/m2).
Converting all of the solar energy to electricity is tricky.
But I suppose you need about the same area of solar panel
in space to capture energy, that you need on the ground.
It is just easier real-estate-wise... and you can fly /those/
birds in almost-perpetual sunshine.
O'Neill's plan was that they be in Clarke orbit, which means that they
are in shadow only briefly a few times a year. It's an experiment
that somebody really needs to try--once Starship is online it may be
within the means of a large university.
Lynn McGuire
2021-04-21 20:48:56 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by J. Clarke
On Wed, 21 Apr 2021 11:57:29 -0700 (PDT), Robert Carnegie
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by John Halpenny
Post by Scott Lurndal
Apparently, SpaceX is starting another business to run next to StarLink,=
=20
Post by Scott Lurndal
StarPower. Solar Power satellites to portable microwave receivers. It=20
will probably melt the snow off your roof too.
No, it won't "melt the snow off your roof".
I'm trying to remember where I recently saw coverage
that indirectly implies it would be a good idea. Quora?
That Canadian roofs currently are meant to stand up
to quite a lot of snow, but sometimes don't.
Post by John Halpenny
These satellites are in low earth orbit, so half of the time they are on
the night side of the earth, and receive no sunlight.
That is indeed, true. My point was that the microwave power density will be
below 100w/m2, which is less than 10% of the solar energy also reaching the
earths surface (the sun's energy is 1360w/m2).
Converting all of the solar energy to electricity is tricky.
But I suppose you need about the same area of solar panel
in space to capture energy, that you need on the ground.
It is just easier real-estate-wise... and you can fly /those/
birds in almost-perpetual sunshine.
O'Neill's plan was that they be in Clarke orbit, which means that they
are in shadow only briefly a few times a year. It's an experiment
that somebody really needs to try--once Starship is online it may be
within the means of a large university.
"Japan Closer to Harvesting Solar Energy from Space"
https://www.alternative-energy-news.info/japan-solar-energy-from-space/

Lynn
J. Clarke
2021-04-21 21:53:48 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Wed, 21 Apr 2021 15:48:56 -0500, Lynn McGuire
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by J. Clarke
On Wed, 21 Apr 2021 11:57:29 -0700 (PDT), Robert Carnegie
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by John Halpenny
Post by Scott Lurndal
Apparently, SpaceX is starting another business to run next to StarLink,=
=20
Post by Scott Lurndal
StarPower. Solar Power satellites to portable microwave receivers. It=20
will probably melt the snow off your roof too.
No, it won't "melt the snow off your roof".
I'm trying to remember where I recently saw coverage
that indirectly implies it would be a good idea. Quora?
That Canadian roofs currently are meant to stand up
to quite a lot of snow, but sometimes don't.
Post by John Halpenny
These satellites are in low earth orbit, so half of the time they are on
the night side of the earth, and receive no sunlight.
That is indeed, true. My point was that the microwave power density will be
below 100w/m2, which is less than 10% of the solar energy also reaching the
earths surface (the sun's energy is 1360w/m2).
Converting all of the solar energy to electricity is tricky.
But I suppose you need about the same area of solar panel
in space to capture energy, that you need on the ground.
It is just easier real-estate-wise... and you can fly /those/
birds in almost-perpetual sunshine.
O'Neill's plan was that they be in Clarke orbit, which means that they
are in shadow only briefly a few times a year. It's an experiment
that somebody really needs to try--once Starship is online it may be
within the means of a large university.
"Japan Closer to Harvesting Solar Energy from Space"
https://www.alternative-energy-news.info/japan-solar-energy-from-space/
Three cheers for the Japanese.
Ted Nolan <tednolan>
2021-04-21 22:01:40 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by J. Clarke
On Wed, 21 Apr 2021 15:48:56 -0500, Lynn McGuire
Post by Lynn McGuire
"Japan Closer to Harvesting Solar Energy from Space"
https://www.alternative-energy-news.info/japan-solar-energy-from-space/
Three cheers for the Japanese.
When I do it, I use sunscreen.
--
columbiaclosings.com
What's not in Columbia anymore..
Titus G
2021-04-23 06:20:07 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Post by J. Clarke
On Wed, 21 Apr 2021 15:48:56 -0500, Lynn McGuire
Post by Lynn McGuire
"Japan Closer to Harvesting Solar Energy from Space"
https://www.alternative-energy-news.info/japan-solar-energy-from-space/
Three cheers for the Japanese.
When I do it, I use sunscreen.
So more casual foraging rather than harvesting?
The Horny Goat
2021-06-25 05:11:16 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Wed, 21 Apr 2021 16:31:09 -0400, J. Clarke
Post by Robert Carnegie
I'm trying to remember where I recently saw coverage
that indirectly implies it would be a good idea. Quora?
That Canadian roofs currently are meant to stand up
to quite a lot of snow, but sometimes don't.
Must be talking about Toronto which is one of the few places on the
planet where you can own both a snow blower and air conditionings and
not be considered crazy (Says this smug Vancouverite who spent 4 years
living there 30 years ago and has no desire to go back)
J. Clarke
2021-06-25 09:58:33 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by The Horny Goat
On Wed, 21 Apr 2021 16:31:09 -0400, J. Clarke
Post by Robert Carnegie
I'm trying to remember where I recently saw coverage
that indirectly implies it would be a good idea. Quora?
That Canadian roofs currently are meant to stand up
to quite a lot of snow, but sometimes don't.
Must be talking about Toronto which is one of the few places on the
planet where you can own both a snow blower and air conditionings and
not be considered crazy (Says this smug Vancouverite who spent 4 years
living there 30 years ago and has no desire to go back)
I guess Connecticut, Ohio, and Massachusetts are also among those "few
places".
Kevrob
2021-06-25 20:29:29 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by J. Clarke
Post by The Horny Goat
On Wed, 21 Apr 2021 16:31:09 -0400, J. Clarke
Post by Robert Carnegie
I'm trying to remember where I recently saw coverage
that indirectly implies it would be a good idea. Quora?
That Canadian roofs currently are meant to stand up
to quite a lot of snow, but sometimes don't.
Must be talking about Toronto which is one of the few places on the
planet where you can own both a snow blower and air conditionings and
not be considered crazy (Says this smug Vancouverite who spent 4 years
living there 30 years ago and has no desire to go back)
I guess Connecticut, Ohio, and Massachusetts are also among those "few
places".
Add Wisconsin and New York - and downstate New York, at that.
One might get more use out of an ice chopper than a snowblower
on Long Island, most years, but while heavy snow is rare, it happens.
Northern New Jersey, PA, Indiana, Illinois homes might have both forms
of tech.

My dad never bought a snowblower. He had 4 boys, 5 girls and
multiple shovels. We cleared the drives and the walks first, then
went to play in the snow. If one planned ahead, the driveway
snow could be employed in snow fort construction. One year
we turned the back stoop into a "ski jump" for our sleds and coasters.

The more mercenary among us took the shovels and looked
for paying customers elsewhere in the neighborhood.

I remember the 2013 blizzard in CT. The town I lived and
worked in got 38 inches. The hardware item in short supply
a few years earlier when we had several smaller, but still
significant storms, was the "roof rake," used to fight the
buildup of "ice dams."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/February_2013_North_American_blizzard

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ice_dam_(roof)

Living on the Atlantic, one year can be very light as far as snow goes,
with the next one quite heavy.
--
Kevin R
J. Clarke
2021-06-25 22:45:20 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Kevrob
Post by J. Clarke
Post by The Horny Goat
On Wed, 21 Apr 2021 16:31:09 -0400, J. Clarke
Post by Robert Carnegie
I'm trying to remember where I recently saw coverage
that indirectly implies it would be a good idea. Quora?
That Canadian roofs currently are meant to stand up
to quite a lot of snow, but sometimes don't.
Must be talking about Toronto which is one of the few places on the
planet where you can own both a snow blower and air conditionings and
not be considered crazy (Says this smug Vancouverite who spent 4 years
living there 30 years ago and has no desire to go back)
I guess Connecticut, Ohio, and Massachusetts are also among those "few
places".
Add Wisconsin and New York - and downstate New York, at that.
One might get more use out of an ice chopper than a snowblower
on Long Island, most years, but while heavy snow is rare, it happens.
Northern New Jersey, PA, Indiana, Illinois homes might have both forms
of tech.
My dad never bought a snowblower. He had 4 boys, 5 girls and
multiple shovels. We cleared the drives and the walks first, then
went to play in the snow. If one planned ahead, the driveway
snow could be employed in snow fort construction. One year
we turned the back stoop into a "ski jump" for our sleds and coasters.
The more mercenary among us took the shovels and looked
for paying customers elsewhere in the neighborhood.
I remember the 2013 blizzard in CT.
That was the year that some arsewipe stole my snowblower. Knowing the
storm was coming I got it out, tuned it up, made sure it was working,
and left it with a cover on it near the back door. Came out to blow
snow and no snowblower.

The replacement, same brand, is a piece of crap--the old one worked
fine for more than 30 years. The new one reliably throws its drive
belt every fall. Note that it is a well known problem, with multiple
fixes, some official, some not, all of which I have tried and none of
which work. The ultimate fix if I ever get around to it will involve a
lathe a big chunk of barstock although at that point I think I'd be
money ahead to just get a Honda and be done with it.
Post by Kevrob
The town I lived and
worked in got 38 inches. The hardware item in short supply
a few years earlier when we had several smaller, but still
significant storms, was the "roof rake," used to fight the
buildup of "ice dams."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/February_2013_North_American_blizzard
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ice_dam_(roof)
Living on the Atlantic, one year can be very light as far as snow goes,
with the next one quite heavy.
Those ice dams are a pain, especially in a house like mine where
there's no overhang, so they fall on and bust the gas meter, the
electric meter and all kinds of other stuff.
pete...@gmail.com
2021-06-25 23:15:40 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Kevrob
Post by J. Clarke
Post by The Horny Goat
On Wed, 21 Apr 2021 16:31:09 -0400, J. Clarke
Post by Robert Carnegie
I'm trying to remember where I recently saw coverage
that indirectly implies it would be a good idea. Quora?
That Canadian roofs currently are meant to stand up
to quite a lot of snow, but sometimes don't.
Must be talking about Toronto which is one of the few places on the
planet where you can own both a snow blower and air conditionings and
not be considered crazy (Says this smug Vancouverite who spent 4 years
living there 30 years ago and has no desire to go back)
I guess Connecticut, Ohio, and Massachusetts are also among those "few
places".
Add Wisconsin and New York - and downstate New York, at that.
One might get more use out of an ice chopper than a snowblower
on Long Island, most years, but while heavy snow is rare, it happens.
Northern New Jersey, PA, Indiana, Illinois homes might have both forms
of tech.
My dad never bought a snowblower. He had 4 boys, 5 girls and
multiple shovels. We cleared the drives and the walks first, then
went to play in the snow. If one planned ahead, the driveway
snow could be employed in snow fort construction. One year
we turned the back stoop into a "ski jump" for our sleds and coasters.
The more mercenary among us took the shovels and looked
for paying customers elsewhere in the neighborhood.
I remember the 2013 blizzard in CT.
That was the year that some arsewipe stole my snowblower. Knowing the
storm was coming I got it out, tuned it up, made sure it was working,
and left it with a cover on it near the back door. Came out to blow
snow and no snowblower.
The replacement, same brand, is a piece of crap--the old one worked
fine for more than 30 years. The new one reliably throws its drive
belt every fall. Note that it is a well known problem, with multiple
fixes, some official, some not, all of which I have tried and none of
which work. The ultimate fix if I ever get around to it will involve a
lathe a big chunk of barstock although at that point I think I'd be
money ahead to just get a Honda and be done with it.
Post by Kevrob
The town I lived and
worked in got 38 inches. The hardware item in short supply
a few years earlier when we had several smaller, but still
significant storms, was the "roof rake," used to fight the
buildup of "ice dams."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/February_2013_North_American_blizzard
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ice_dam_(roof)
Living on the Atlantic, one year can be very light as far as snow goes,
with the next one quite heavy.
Those ice dams are a pain, especially in a house like mine where
there's no overhang, so they fall on and bust the gas meter, the
electric meter and all kinds of other stuff.
I'm a little confused. Roof rakes remove unconsolidated snow, the
weight of which is a risk. An ice dam forms when heat from the house
causes snowmelt to flow down to the snow on overhanging eaves, where
it refreezes. This can build up until water leaks in over the bottom row of
shingles.

Clearing the roof of snow can prevent this, but I've found that electric
heating cables that maintain drain channels through the dams far more
practical. I don't think about roof rakes until the snow on the roof is 3 feet deep.

Pt
J. Clarke
2021-06-26 01:24:43 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by ***@gmail.com
Post by Kevrob
Post by J. Clarke
Post by The Horny Goat
On Wed, 21 Apr 2021 16:31:09 -0400, J. Clarke
Post by Robert Carnegie
I'm trying to remember where I recently saw coverage
that indirectly implies it would be a good idea. Quora?
That Canadian roofs currently are meant to stand up
to quite a lot of snow, but sometimes don't.
Must be talking about Toronto which is one of the few places on the
planet where you can own both a snow blower and air conditionings and
not be considered crazy (Says this smug Vancouverite who spent 4 years
living there 30 years ago and has no desire to go back)
I guess Connecticut, Ohio, and Massachusetts are also among those "few
places".
Add Wisconsin and New York - and downstate New York, at that.
One might get more use out of an ice chopper than a snowblower
on Long Island, most years, but while heavy snow is rare, it happens.
Northern New Jersey, PA, Indiana, Illinois homes might have both forms
of tech.
My dad never bought a snowblower. He had 4 boys, 5 girls and
multiple shovels. We cleared the drives and the walks first, then
went to play in the snow. If one planned ahead, the driveway
snow could be employed in snow fort construction. One year
we turned the back stoop into a "ski jump" for our sleds and coasters.
The more mercenary among us took the shovels and looked
for paying customers elsewhere in the neighborhood.
I remember the 2013 blizzard in CT.
That was the year that some arsewipe stole my snowblower. Knowing the
storm was coming I got it out, tuned it up, made sure it was working,
and left it with a cover on it near the back door. Came out to blow
snow and no snowblower.
The replacement, same brand, is a piece of crap--the old one worked
fine for more than 30 years. The new one reliably throws its drive
belt every fall. Note that it is a well known problem, with multiple
fixes, some official, some not, all of which I have tried and none of
which work. The ultimate fix if I ever get around to it will involve a
lathe a big chunk of barstock although at that point I think I'd be
money ahead to just get a Honda and be done with it.
Post by Kevrob
The town I lived and
worked in got 38 inches. The hardware item in short supply
a few years earlier when we had several smaller, but still
significant storms, was the "roof rake," used to fight the
buildup of "ice dams."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/February_2013_North_American_blizzard
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ice_dam_(roof)
Living on the Atlantic, one year can be very light as far as snow goes,
with the next one quite heavy.
Those ice dams are a pain, especially in a house like mine where
there's no overhang, so they fall on and bust the gas meter, the
electric meter and all kinds of other stuff.
I'm a little confused. Roof rakes remove unconsolidated snow, the
weight of which is a risk. An ice dam forms when heat from the house
causes snowmelt to flow down to the snow on overhanging eaves, where
it refreezes. This can build up until water leaks in over the bottom row of
shingles.
Clearing the roof of snow can prevent this, but I've found that electric
heating cables that maintain drain channels through the dams far more
practical. I don't think about roof rakes until the snow on the roof is 3 feet deep.
If you get a lot of snow then that makes sense. But in CT we don't.
It comes heavy when it comes but some years we don't get any to speak
of.
Kevrob
2021-06-26 03:13:07 UTC
Reply
Permalink
[snip]
Post by ***@gmail.com
Clearing the roof of snow can prevent this, but I've found that electric
heating cables that maintain drain channels through the dams far more
practical. I don't think about roof rakes until the snow on the roof is 3 feet deep.
If you get a lot of snow then that makes sense. But in CT we don't.
It comes heavy when it comes but some years we don't get any to speak
of.
We can also have cycles of [snow-melt-snow-] interspersed with rain,
which sometimes freezes. Other times the rain helps wash the melting
snow away. It takes daytime low temperatures below normal for an
extended period to get real accumulation.

The year everyone decided they needed a roof rake the local hardware
stores, garden centers/nurseries and anywhere else that might carry
them ordered their stock based on a _normal_ year's snowfall. Getting
restocked could take awhile. I knew folks who hunted them down at the
remaining "mom-and-pop" shops in some of the more out-of-the-way
towns. Local old-timers already had their own. New arrivals didn't even
know what they were, let alone that they might need one.

If you had sent me to the store for a roof rake in 2009, I would have
suspected that a variant of the "left-handed pipe wrench" gag was in play.
I lived for decades in Milwaukee, and was aware that rooves might collapse
from too much snow, but I was an apartment-dweller. Maintaining the roof
was the landlord's job.

We did have a stalactite of an icicle take out our ground floor flat's
kitchen window in Jan `82. It must have fallen from the metal railing
of the back stairs, five floors up. This was a small-scale annoyance.
The smallest of the 4 bedrooms was off the kitchen, and its inhabitant
could sleep on the living room couch or at his girlfriend's, until the
window was repaired. Ice falling off buildings is a real hazard in
places like Chicago's Loop.

Typing about winter in June! "Winter" is over, as my favorite NHL
team lost game 7 of the Stanley Cup semi-final. {Ice hockey, for
those who don't know/care.}

--
Kevin R
J. Clarke
2021-06-26 12:47:44 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Kevrob
[snip]
Post by ***@gmail.com
Clearing the roof of snow can prevent this, but I've found that electric
heating cables that maintain drain channels through the dams far more
practical. I don't think about roof rakes until the snow on the roof is 3 feet deep.
If you get a lot of snow then that makes sense. But in CT we don't.
It comes heavy when it comes but some years we don't get any to speak
of.
We can also have cycles of [snow-melt-snow-] interspersed with rain,
which sometimes freezes. Other times the rain helps wash the melting
snow away. It takes daytime low temperatures below normal for an
extended period to get real accumulation.
The year everyone decided they needed a roof rake the local hardware
stores, garden centers/nurseries and anywhere else that might carry
them ordered their stock based on a _normal_ year's snowfall. Getting
restocked could take awhile. I knew folks who hunted them down at the
remaining "mom-and-pop" shops in some of the more out-of-the-way
towns. Local old-timers already had their own. New arrivals didn't even
know what they were, let alone that they might need one.
If you had sent me to the store for a roof rake in 2009, I would have
suspected that a variant of the "left-handed pipe wrench" gag was in play.
I lived for decades in Milwaukee, and was aware that rooves might collapse
from too much snow, but I was an apartment-dweller. Maintaining the roof
was the landlord's job.
We did have a stalactite of an icicle take out our ground floor flat's
kitchen window in Jan `82. It must have fallen from the metal railing
of the back stairs, five floors up. This was a small-scale annoyance.
The smallest of the 4 bedrooms was off the kitchen, and its inhabitant
could sleep on the living room couch or at his girlfriend's, until the
window was repaired. Ice falling off buildings is a real hazard in
places like Chicago's Loop.
Typing about winter in June! "Winter" is over, as my favorite NHL
team lost game 7 of the Stanley Cup semi-final. {Ice hockey, for
those who don't know/care.}
I had an ice dam take out a window air conditioner a few years back.
Of course it took the window with it. When I started looking into the
repair I found the sill rotted out, and the framing underneath it, and
the sheathing, and a couple of studs . . .
Post by Kevrob
--
Kevin R
Michael F. Stemper
2021-06-28 15:57:56 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by J. Clarke
Post by The Horny Goat
Must be talking about Toronto which is one of the few places on the
planet where you can own both a snow blower and air conditionings and
not be considered crazy (Says this smug Vancouverite who spent 4 years
living there 30 years ago and has no desire to go back)
I guess Connecticut, Ohio, and Massachusetts are also among those "few
places".
Not to mention Minnesnowta, so I won't.
--
Michael F. Stemper
There's no "me" in "team". There's no "us" in "team", either.
James Nicoll
2021-06-25 13:48:38 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by The Horny Goat
On Wed, 21 Apr 2021 16:31:09 -0400, J. Clarke
Post by Robert Carnegie
I'm trying to remember where I recently saw coverage
that indirectly implies it would be a good idea. Quora?
That Canadian roofs currently are meant to stand up
to quite a lot of snow, but sometimes don't.
Must be talking about Toronto which is one of the few places on the
planet where you can own both a snow blower and air conditionings and
not be considered crazy (Says this smug Vancouverite who spent 4 years
living there 30 years ago and has no desire to go back)
I think ice storms are more likely to bring down a roof than straight snow
but we get those too. Had a great double whammy a few years back where a
summer windstorm weakened a lot of trees in Kitchener and then an early
winter ice storm overloaded them and finished a bunch off.
--
My reviews can be found at http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/
My tor pieces at https://www.tor.com/author/james-davis-nicoll/
My Dreamwidth at https://james-davis-nicoll.dreamwidth.org/
My patreon is at https://www.patreon.com/jamesdnicoll
Dorothy J Heydt
2021-06-25 14:44:37 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by The Horny Goat
On Wed, 21 Apr 2021 16:31:09 -0400, J. Clarke
Post by Robert Carnegie
I'm trying to remember where I recently saw coverage
that indirectly implies it would be a good idea. Quora?
That Canadian roofs currently are meant to stand up
to quite a lot of snow, but sometimes don't.
Must be talking about Toronto which is one of the few places on the
planet where you can own both a snow blower and air conditionings and
not be considered crazy (Says this smug Vancouverite who spent 4 years
living there 30 years ago and has no desire to go back)
I went to a con in Vancouver once. It was July, and the weather
was perfect. How are you doing up there, heat- and drought-wise?
We're not so well off, down in California.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/
Paul S Person
2021-06-25 16:58:58 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by The Horny Goat
On Wed, 21 Apr 2021 16:31:09 -0400, J. Clarke
Post by Robert Carnegie
I'm trying to remember where I recently saw coverage
that indirectly implies it would be a good idea. Quora?
That Canadian roofs currently are meant to stand up
to quite a lot of snow, but sometimes don't.
Must be talking about Toronto which is one of the few places on the
planet where you can own both a snow blower and air conditionings and
not be considered crazy (Says this smug Vancouverite who spent 4 years
living there 30 years ago and has no desire to go back)
I went to a con in Vancouver once. It was July, and the weather
was perfect. How are you doing up there, heat- and drought-wise?
We're not so well off, down in California.
The maps I see stop at the North Border of Washington.

I doubt that the heat does.
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."
-dsr-
2021-06-25 17:07:04 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by The Horny Goat
On Wed, 21 Apr 2021 16:31:09 -0400, J. Clarke
Post by Robert Carnegie
I'm trying to remember where I recently saw coverage
that indirectly implies it would be a good idea. Quora?
That Canadian roofs currently are meant to stand up
to quite a lot of snow, but sometimes don't.
Must be talking about Toronto which is one of the few places on the
planet where you can own both a snow blower and air conditionings and
not be considered crazy (Says this smug Vancouverite who spent 4 years
living there 30 years ago and has no desire to go back)
Assuming that if you live in the most urban areas, you don't need a snow
blower personally because you expect the city to take care of the streets
and sidewalks...

I'm pretty sure the zone of "snow blower and a/c both desirable" extends
from mid-Maine down through Pennsylvania and westward to the Mississippi.


-dsr-
Dorothy J Heydt
2021-06-25 18:43:56 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by -dsr-
Post by The Horny Goat
On Wed, 21 Apr 2021 16:31:09 -0400, J. Clarke
Post by Robert Carnegie
I'm trying to remember where I recently saw coverage
that indirectly implies it would be a good idea. Quora?
That Canadian roofs currently are meant to stand up
to quite a lot of snow, but sometimes don't.
Must be talking about Toronto which is one of the few places on the
planet where you can own both a snow blower and air conditionings and
not be considered crazy (Says this smug Vancouverite who spent 4 years
living there 30 years ago and has no desire to go back)
Assuming that if you live in the most urban areas, you don't need a snow
blower personally because you expect the city to take care of the streets
and sidewalks...
I'm pretty sure the zone of "snow blower and a/c both desirable" extends
from mid-Maine down through Pennsylvania and westward to the Mississippi.
Here in a part of California that's practically at sea level, we
don't need snow blowers. A/C is something we're supposed to
avoid using, to discourage power shortages. "Use fans" is the
recommendation. We have a fan in the west window, a table fan
pointed at me (as I sit in bed), and a table fan pointed at Hal
(when he comes to bed).

We also have a humongous great oak tree to our west (on the
neighbor's property, but it still shades us), which helps a lot.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/
Scott Lurndal
2021-06-26 19:42:40 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by -dsr-
Post by The Horny Goat
On Wed, 21 Apr 2021 16:31:09 -0400, J. Clarke
Post by Robert Carnegie
I'm trying to remember where I recently saw coverage
that indirectly implies it would be a good idea. Quora?
That Canadian roofs currently are meant to stand up
to quite a lot of snow, but sometimes don't.
Must be talking about Toronto which is one of the few places on the
planet where you can own both a snow blower and air conditionings and
not be considered crazy (Says this smug Vancouverite who spent 4 years
living there 30 years ago and has no desire to go back)
Assuming that if you live in the most urban areas, you don't need a snow
blower personally because you expect the city to take care of the streets
and sidewalks...
I'm pretty sure the zone of "snow blower and a/c both desirable" extends
from mid-Maine down through Pennsylvania and westward to the Mississippi.
Here in a part of California that's practically at sea level, we
don't need snow blowers. A/C is something we're supposed to
avoid using, to discourage power shortages. "Use fans" is the
recommendation. We have a fan in the west window, a table fan
pointed at me (as I sit in bed), and a table fan pointed at Hal
(when he comes to bed).
I've lived in California for almost forty years and have never
lived in a home with air conditioning. It really depends on
_where_ in the state you reside and how well designed your
domicile is (wide overhangs, well insulated, good windows
and cool (57-62F) evenings 98% of the time).
Dorothy J Heydt
2021-06-26 20:07:12 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Scott Lurndal
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by -dsr-
Post by The Horny Goat
On Wed, 21 Apr 2021 16:31:09 -0400, J. Clarke
Post by Robert Carnegie
I'm trying to remember where I recently saw coverage
that indirectly implies it would be a good idea. Quora?
That Canadian roofs currently are meant to stand up
to quite a lot of snow, but sometimes don't.
Must be talking about Toronto which is one of the few places on the
planet where you can own both a snow blower and air conditionings and
not be considered crazy (Says this smug Vancouverite who spent 4 years
living there 30 years ago and has no desire to go back)
Assuming that if you live in the most urban areas, you don't need a snow
blower personally because you expect the city to take care of the streets
and sidewalks...
I'm pretty sure the zone of "snow blower and a/c both desirable" extends
from mid-Maine down through Pennsylvania and westward to the Mississippi.
Here in a part of California that's practically at sea level, we
don't need snow blowers. A/C is something we're supposed to
avoid using, to discourage power shortages. "Use fans" is the
recommendation. We have a fan in the west window, a table fan
pointed at me (as I sit in bed), and a table fan pointed at Hal
(when he comes to bed).
I've lived in California for almost forty years and have never
lived in a home with air conditioning. It really depends on
_where_ in the state you reside and how well designed your
domicile is (wide overhangs, well insulated, good windows
and cool (57-62F) evenings 98% of the time).
Well, we're living in a house built in 1878, with an adapted
basement/in-law apartment built maybe in the 1950s? it's hard to
tell. There is an A/C unit in the master bedroom upstairs; we
use fans that blow cool (because shaded by that great big ol'
oak tree I mentioned upthread) into the main room, and two other
fans that redirect that air to Hal's and my sides of the bed,
respectively.

Currently we're getting temps in the high 70s, with occasional
days in the low 80s. We may be getting into the 90s as the
summer/fall goes on.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/
Dimensional Traveler
2021-06-26 20:50:45 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Scott Lurndal
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by -dsr-
Post by The Horny Goat
On Wed, 21 Apr 2021 16:31:09 -0400, J. Clarke
Post by Robert Carnegie
I'm trying to remember where I recently saw coverage
that indirectly implies it would be a good idea. Quora?
That Canadian roofs currently are meant to stand up
to quite a lot of snow, but sometimes don't.
Must be talking about Toronto which is one of the few places on the
planet where you can own both a snow blower and air conditionings and
not be considered crazy (Says this smug Vancouverite who spent 4 years
living there 30 years ago and has no desire to go back)
Assuming that if you live in the most urban areas, you don't need a snow
blower personally because you expect the city to take care of the streets
and sidewalks...
I'm pretty sure the zone of "snow blower and a/c both desirable" extends
from mid-Maine down through Pennsylvania and westward to the Mississippi.
Here in a part of California that's practically at sea level, we
don't need snow blowers. A/C is something we're supposed to
avoid using, to discourage power shortages. "Use fans" is the
recommendation. We have a fan in the west window, a table fan
pointed at me (as I sit in bed), and a table fan pointed at Hal
(when he comes to bed).
I've lived in California for almost forty years and have never
lived in a home with air conditioning. It really depends on
_where_ in the state you reside and how well designed your
domicile is (wide overhangs, well insulated, good windows
and cool (57-62F) evenings 98% of the time).
Well, we're living in a house built in 1878, with an adapted
basement/in-law apartment built maybe in the 1950s? it's hard to
tell. There is an A/C unit in the master bedroom upstairs; we
use fans that blow cool (because shaded by that great big ol'
oak tree I mentioned upthread) into the main room, and two other
fans that redirect that air to Hal's and my sides of the bed,
respectively.
Currently we're getting temps in the high 70s, with occasional
days in the low 80s. We may be getting into the 90s as the
summer/fall goes on.
A bit west of you I've already seen several 100+ days this month.
--
Troll, troll, troll your post gently down the thread
Angrily, angrily, angrily, the net's a nut's scream.
Dorothy J Heydt
2021-06-26 21:51:36 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Dimensional Traveler
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Scott Lurndal
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by -dsr-
Post by The Horny Goat
On Wed, 21 Apr 2021 16:31:09 -0400, J. Clarke
Post by Robert Carnegie
I'm trying to remember where I recently saw coverage
that indirectly implies it would be a good idea. Quora?
That Canadian roofs currently are meant to stand up
to quite a lot of snow, but sometimes don't.
Must be talking about Toronto which is one of the few places on the
planet where you can own both a snow blower and air conditionings and
not be considered crazy (Says this smug Vancouverite who spent 4 years
living there 30 years ago and has no desire to go back)
Assuming that if you live in the most urban areas, you don't need a snow
blower personally because you expect the city to take care of the streets
and sidewalks...
I'm pretty sure the zone of "snow blower and a/c both desirable" extends
from mid-Maine down through Pennsylvania and westward to the Mississippi.
Here in a part of California that's practically at sea level, we
don't need snow blowers. A/C is something we're supposed to
avoid using, to discourage power shortages. "Use fans" is the
recommendation. We have a fan in the west window, a table fan
pointed at me (as I sit in bed), and a table fan pointed at Hal
(when he comes to bed).
I've lived in California for almost forty years and have never
lived in a home with air conditioning. It really depends on
_where_ in the state you reside and how well designed your
domicile is (wide overhangs, well insulated, good windows
and cool (57-62F) evenings 98% of the time).
Well, we're living in a house built in 1878, with an adapted
basement/in-law apartment built maybe in the 1950s? it's hard to
tell. There is an A/C unit in the master bedroom upstairs; we
use fans that blow cool (because shaded by that great big ol'
oak tree I mentioned upthread) into the main room, and two other
fans that redirect that air to Hal's and my sides of the bed,
respectively.
Currently we're getting temps in the high 70s, with occasional
days in the low 80s. We may be getting into the 90s as the
summer/fall goes on.
A bit west of you I've already seen several 100+ days this month.
Dear me. West of me (in Vallejo)? Would that be in Marin
County? I should have expected anybody nearer the sea to have a
cooler climate ... but I've never lived in Marin, so what do I
know.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/
Scott Lurndal
2021-06-27 17:58:29 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Dimensional Traveler
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Scott Lurndal
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by -dsr-
Post by The Horny Goat
On Wed, 21 Apr 2021 16:31:09 -0400, J. Clarke
Post by Robert Carnegie
I'm trying to remember where I recently saw coverage
that indirectly implies it would be a good idea. Quora?
That Canadian roofs currently are meant to stand up
to quite a lot of snow, but sometimes don't.
Must be talking about Toronto which is one of the few places on the
planet where you can own both a snow blower and air conditionings and
not be considered crazy (Says this smug Vancouverite who spent 4 years
living there 30 years ago and has no desire to go back)
Assuming that if you live in the most urban areas, you don't need a snow
blower personally because you expect the city to take care of the streets
and sidewalks...
I'm pretty sure the zone of "snow blower and a/c both desirable" extends
from mid-Maine down through Pennsylvania and westward to the Mississippi.
Here in a part of California that's practically at sea level, we
don't need snow blowers. A/C is something we're supposed to
avoid using, to discourage power shortages. "Use fans" is the
recommendation. We have a fan in the west window, a table fan
pointed at me (as I sit in bed), and a table fan pointed at Hal
(when he comes to bed).
I've lived in California for almost forty years and have never
lived in a home with air conditioning. It really depends on
_where_ in the state you reside and how well designed your
domicile is (wide overhangs, well insulated, good windows
and cool (57-62F) evenings 98% of the time).
Well, we're living in a house built in 1878, with an adapted
basement/in-law apartment built maybe in the 1950s? it's hard to
tell. There is an A/C unit in the master bedroom upstairs; we
use fans that blow cool (because shaded by that great big ol'
oak tree I mentioned upthread) into the main room, and two other
fans that redirect that air to Hal's and my sides of the bed,
respectively.
Currently we're getting temps in the high 70s, with occasional
days in the low 80s. We may be getting into the 90s as the
summer/fall goes on.
A bit west of you I've already seen several 100+ days this month.
Dear me. West of me (in Vallejo)? Would that be in Marin
County? I should have expected anybody nearer the sea to have a
cooler climate ... but I've never lived in Marin, so what do I
know.
I'm 15 miles from the Monterey Bay (near Hecker Pass), and we hit
106.4 here a week and a half ago. It never exceeded 79 in
the un-airconditioned house. It was 70 at the beach in
Watsonville. However, even then, it got down to 59 overnight.
Dorothy J Heydt
2021-06-27 18:29:08 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Scott Lurndal
I'm 15 miles from the Monterey Bay (near Hecker Pass), and we hit
106.4 here a week and a half ago. It never exceeded 79 in
the un-airconditioned house. It was 70 at the beach in
Watsonville. However, even then, it got down to 59 overnight.
Hotter than the hinges during the day, cooling down at night and
into morning. And people from elsewhere wonder why Californians
wear socks and sandals! You put on warm socks in the morning,
add sandals, walk around, around noon you take off the socks
because it's now too warm. If you're going to be out all day,
stow the socks somewhere about your person in case you need them
after sunset. What's not to like?
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/
Dimensional Traveler
2021-06-27 20:07:07 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Scott Lurndal
I'm 15 miles from the Monterey Bay (near Hecker Pass), and we hit
106.4 here a week and a half ago. It never exceeded 79 in
the un-airconditioned house. It was 70 at the beach in
Watsonville. However, even then, it got down to 59 overnight.
Hotter than the hinges during the day, cooling down at night and
into morning. And people from elsewhere wonder why Californians
wear socks and sandals! You put on warm socks in the morning,
add sandals, walk around, around noon you take off the socks
because it's now too warm. If you're going to be out all day,
stow the socks somewhere about your person in case you need them
after sunset. What's not to like?
The dying from heat prostration?
--
Troll, troll, troll your post gently down the thread
Angrily, angrily, angrily, the net's a nut's scream.
Scott Lurndal
2021-06-28 19:46:22 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Dimensional Traveler
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Scott Lurndal
I'm 15 miles from the Monterey Bay (near Hecker Pass), and we hit
106.4 here a week and a half ago. It never exceeded 79 in
the un-airconditioned house. It was 70 at the beach in
Watsonville. However, even then, it got down to 59 overnight.
Hotter than the hinges during the day, cooling down at night and
into morning. And people from elsewhere wonder why Californians
wear socks and sandals! You put on warm socks in the morning,
add sandals, walk around, around noon you take off the socks
because it's now too warm. If you're going to be out all day,
stow the socks somewhere about your person in case you need them
after sunset. What's not to like?
The dying from heat prostration?
The difference between 106F in california and 106F in
St. Louis is the humidity. When it was 106.4 the other day,
the humdity was around 12%. In the midwest, the humidity
would be closer to 90% which makes even 85F miserable (leaving
aside the ever present mosquitos in the midwest, something else
we don't have in coastal California for the most part).
Quadibloc
2021-07-01 05:05:42 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Dimensional Traveler
A bit west of you I've already seen several 100+ days this month.
Dear me. West of me (in Vallejo)? Would that be in Marin
County? I should have expected anybody nearer the sea to have a
cooler climate ... but I've never lived in Marin, so what do I
know.
I live in Edmonton Alberta. Much chillier in the winter than California.

But today the temperature got up to 99 degrees, due to a very unusual
weather system, and it is expected to get there tomorrow, before starting
to cool off somewhat.

John Savard
Paul S Person
2021-07-01 16:25:58 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Wed, 30 Jun 2021 22:05:42 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc
Post by Quadibloc
Post by Dimensional Traveler
A bit west of you I've already seen several 100+ days this month.
Dear me. West of me (in Vallejo)? Would that be in Marin
County? I should have expected anybody nearer the sea to have a
cooler climate ... but I've never lived in Marin, so what do I
know.
I live in Edmonton Alberta. Much chillier in the winter than California.
But today the temperature got up to 99 degrees, due to a very unusual
weather system, and it is expected to get there tomorrow, before starting
to cool off somewhat.
Is that the same thing that gave Seattle 3 100+ days in a row?

If so, you can have it -- but I suggest you send it on its way ASAP.

99 is nasty.
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."
Dorothy J Heydt
2021-07-01 17:36:56 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Paul S Person
On Wed, 30 Jun 2021 22:05:42 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc
Post by Quadibloc
Post by Dimensional Traveler
A bit west of you I've already seen several 100+ days this month.
Dear me. West of me (in Vallejo)? Would that be in Marin
County? I should have expected anybody nearer the sea to have a
cooler climate ... but I've never lived in Marin, so what do I
know.
I live in Edmonton Alberta. Much chillier in the winter than California.
Well, yes. More accurately, you're north-by-west of me.

/googles map

I sit corrected; you're north-by-EAST of me. West of me is not
much (San Rafael, e.g.) before you're in the Pacific Ocean.
Post by Paul S Person
Post by Quadibloc
But today the temperature got up to 99 degrees, due to a very unusual
weather system, and it is expected to get there tomorrow, before starting
to cool off somewhat.
Is that the same thing that gave Seattle 3 100+ days in a row?
If so, you can have it -- but I suggest you send it on its way ASAP.
99 is nasty.
Damn right. So far, we've had a few days in the low 80s, and
we're shaded from the south by a huge California live oak. So it
hasn't been too bad. /cross fingers
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/
J. Clarke
2021-07-01 23:09:40 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Paul S Person
On Wed, 30 Jun 2021 22:05:42 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc
Post by Quadibloc
Post by Dimensional Traveler
A bit west of you I've already seen several 100+ days this month.
Dear me. West of me (in Vallejo)? Would that be in Marin
County? I should have expected anybody nearer the sea to have a
cooler climate ... but I've never lived in Marin, so what do I
know.
I live in Edmonton Alberta. Much chillier in the winter than California.
Well, yes. More accurately, you're north-by-west of me.
/googles map
I sit corrected; you're north-by-EAST of me. West of me is not
much (San Rafael, e.g.) before you're in the Pacific Ocean.
Post by Paul S Person
Post by Quadibloc
But today the temperature got up to 99 degrees, due to a very unusual
weather system, and it is expected to get there tomorrow, before starting
to cool off somewhat.
Is that the same thing that gave Seattle 3 100+ days in a row?
If so, you can have it -- but I suggest you send it on its way ASAP.
99 is nasty.
Damn right. So far, we've had a few days in the low 80s, and
we're shaded from the south by a huge California live oak. So it
hasn't been too bad. /cross fingers
It hit 100 here yesterday, and last year I lost both my shade trees.
Proper air conditioning is now on the to-do list.
Dimensional Traveler
2021-07-02 01:35:19 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Paul S Person
On Wed, 30 Jun 2021 22:05:42 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc
Post by Quadibloc
Post by Dimensional Traveler
A bit west of you I've already seen several 100+ days this month.
Dear me. West of me (in Vallejo)? Would that be in Marin
County? I should have expected anybody nearer the sea to have a
cooler climate ... but I've never lived in Marin, so what do I
know.
I live in Edmonton Alberta. Much chillier in the winter than California.
Well, yes. More accurately, you're north-by-west of me.
/googles map
I sit corrected; you're north-by-EAST of me. West of me is not
much (San Rafael, e.g.) before you're in the Pacific Ocean.
HEY! I resent that!
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Paul S Person
Post by Quadibloc
But today the temperature got up to 99 degrees, due to a very unusual
weather system, and it is expected to get there tomorrow, before starting
to cool off somewhat.
Is that the same thing that gave Seattle 3 100+ days in a row?
If so, you can have it -- but I suggest you send it on its way ASAP.
99 is nasty.
Damn right. So far, we've had a few days in the low 80s, and
we're shaded from the south by a huge California live oak. So it
hasn't been too bad. /cross fingers
--
Troll, troll, troll your post gently down the thread
Angrily, angrily, angrily, the net's a nut's scream.
Paul S Person
2021-07-02 16:33:49 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Paul S Person
On Wed, 30 Jun 2021 22:05:42 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc
Post by Quadibloc
Post by Dimensional Traveler
A bit west of you I've already seen several 100+ days this month.
Dear me. West of me (in Vallejo)? Would that be in Marin
County? I should have expected anybody nearer the sea to have a
cooler climate ... but I've never lived in Marin, so what do I
know.
I live in Edmonton Alberta. Much chillier in the winter than California.
Well, yes. More accurately, you're north-by-west of me.
/googles map
I sit corrected; you're north-by-EAST of me. West of me is not
much (San Rafael, e.g.) before you're in the Pacific Ocean.
Post by Paul S Person
Post by Quadibloc
But today the temperature got up to 99 degrees, due to a very unusual
weather system, and it is expected to get there tomorrow, before starting
to cool off somewhat.
Is that the same thing that gave Seattle 3 100+ days in a row?
If so, you can have it -- but I suggest you send it on its way ASAP.
99 is nasty.
Damn right. So far, we've had a few days in the low 80s, and
we're shaded from the south by a huge California live oak. So it
hasn't been too bad. /cross fingers
I managed to ... survive ... an internal temp of 96 for the last day,
but I hope to /never/ have to do that again. Well, in this life,
anyway.

I find anything up to 86 tolerable. 80 is, of course, a lot better.
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."
Lynn McGuire
2021-07-02 19:03:14 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Paul S Person
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Paul S Person
On Wed, 30 Jun 2021 22:05:42 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc
Post by Quadibloc
Post by Dimensional Traveler
A bit west of you I've already seen several 100+ days this month.
Dear me. West of me (in Vallejo)? Would that be in Marin
County? I should have expected anybody nearer the sea to have a
cooler climate ... but I've never lived in Marin, so what do I
know.
I live in Edmonton Alberta. Much chillier in the winter than California.
Well, yes. More accurately, you're north-by-west of me.
/googles map
I sit corrected; you're north-by-EAST of me. West of me is not
much (San Rafael, e.g.) before you're in the Pacific Ocean.
Post by Paul S Person
Post by Quadibloc
But today the temperature got up to 99 degrees, due to a very unusual
weather system, and it is expected to get there tomorrow, before starting
to cool off somewhat.
Is that the same thing that gave Seattle 3 100+ days in a row?
If so, you can have it -- but I suggest you send it on its way ASAP.
99 is nasty.
Damn right. So far, we've had a few days in the low 80s, and
we're shaded from the south by a huge California live oak. So it
hasn't been too bad. /cross fingers
I managed to ... survive ... an internal temp of 96 for the last day,
but I hope to /never/ have to do that again. Well, in this life,
anyway.
I find anything up to 86 tolerable. 80 is, of course, a lot better.
Sitting here in my 73 F office with 94 F / 70% humidity outside. All
air conditioners are in the blue and freely running even though they are
17 years old.

Lynn
Chrysi Cat
2021-07-02 20:05:35 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Paul S Person
Post by Paul S Person
On Wed, 30 Jun 2021 22:05:42 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc
Post by Quadibloc
Post by Dimensional Traveler
A bit west of you I've already seen several 100+ days this month.
Dear me. West of me (in Vallejo)? Would that be in Marin
County? I should have expected anybody nearer the sea to have a
cooler climate ... but I've never lived in Marin, so what do I
know.
I live in Edmonton Alberta. Much chillier in the winter than California.
Well, yes.  More accurately, you're north-by-west of me.
/googles map
I sit corrected; you're north-by-EAST of me.  West of me is not
much (San Rafael, e.g.) before you're in the Pacific Ocean.
Post by Paul S Person
Post by Quadibloc
But today the temperature got up to 99 degrees, due to a very unusual
weather system, and it is expected to get there tomorrow, before starting
to cool off somewhat.
Is that the same thing that gave Seattle 3 100+ days in a row?
If so, you can have it -- but I suggest you send it on its way ASAP.
99 is nasty.
Damn right.  So far, we've had a few days in the low 80s, and
we're shaded from the south by a huge California live oak.  So it
hasn't been too bad.  /cross fingers
I managed to ... survive ... an internal temp of 96 for the last day,
but I hope to /never/ have to do that again. Well, in this life,
anyway.
I find anything up to 86 tolerable. 80 is, of course, a lot better.
Sitting here in my 73 F office with 94 F / 70% humidity outside.  All
air conditioners are in the blue and freely running even though they are
17 years old.
Lynn
You say that as though it were an old A/C unit.

As far as I remember, we've never replaced the central-air compressor
for this house.

The house was built with central air in '90 or '91 and my parents have
been the homeowners since '98.

(IF we ever had anyone in to replace it, it would be back around the
time you bought yours. The thermostats are about a decade old or newer
[they're even that blue-tone background that most single-colour LCD is
these days], but they went in, I *think*, when the *furnaces* got
swapped out, not the A/C).

It keeps the hall with the thermostat at the requested temp, and would
likely do so even if we requested 60.

But we never _will_ because that's way too much electricity we'd be
asking of it. And that bit about "the hall with the thermostat" is
significant, too, because the living room is 20-plus feet high and has
windows all over the south, southwest, and west walls. And since the
thermostat _isn't_ there, the main living area is always 4-5 degrees in
the undesirable direction from the temperature at the thermostat. Still,
that's not an A/C unit problem, that's a "stupid placement for the
thermostat" problem.
--
Chrysi Cat
1/2 anthrocat, nearly 1/2 anthrofox, all magical
Transgoddess, quick to anger. [she/her. Misgender and die].
Call me Chrysi or call me Kat, I'll respond to either!
Paul S Person
2021-07-03 16:39:56 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Chrysi Cat
Post by Paul S Person
Post by Paul S Person
On Wed, 30 Jun 2021 22:05:42 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc
Post by Quadibloc
Post by Dimensional Traveler
A bit west of you I've already seen several 100+ days this month.
Dear me. West of me (in Vallejo)? Would that be in Marin
County? I should have expected anybody nearer the sea to have a
cooler climate ... but I've never lived in Marin, so what do I
know.
I live in Edmonton Alberta. Much chillier in the winter than California.
Well, yes.  More accurately, you're north-by-west of me.
/googles map
I sit corrected; you're north-by-EAST of me.  West of me is not
much (San Rafael, e.g.) before you're in the Pacific Ocean.
Post by Paul S Person
Post by Quadibloc
But today the temperature got up to 99 degrees, due to a very unusual
weather system, and it is expected to get there tomorrow, before starting
to cool off somewhat.
Is that the same thing that gave Seattle 3 100+ days in a row?
If so, you can have it -- but I suggest you send it on its way ASAP.
99 is nasty.
Damn right.  So far, we've had a few days in the low 80s, and
we're shaded from the south by a huge California live oak.  So it
hasn't been too bad.  /cross fingers
I managed to ... survive ... an internal temp of 96 for the last day,
but I hope to /never/ have to do that again. Well, in this life,
anyway.
I find anything up to 86 tolerable. 80 is, of course, a lot better.
Sitting here in my 73 F office with 94 F / 70% humidity outside.  All
air conditioners are in the blue and freely running even though they are
17 years old.
Lynn
You say that as though it were an old A/C unit.
As far as I remember, we've never replaced the central-air compressor
for this house.
The house was built with central air in '90 or '91 and my parents have
been the homeowners since '98.
(IF we ever had anyone in to replace it, it would be back around the
time you bought yours. The thermostats are about a decade old or newer
[they're even that blue-tone background that most single-colour LCD is
these days], but they went in, I *think*, when the *furnaces* got
swapped out, not the A/C).
It keeps the hall with the thermostat at the requested temp, and would
likely do so even if we requested 60.
But we never _will_ because that's way too much electricity we'd be
asking of it. And that bit about "the hall with the thermostat" is
significant, too, because the living room is 20-plus feet high and has
windows all over the south, southwest, and west walls. And since the
thermostat _isn't_ there, the main living area is always 4-5 degrees in
the undesirable direction from the temperature at the thermostat. Still,
that's not an A/C unit problem, that's a "stupid placement for the
thermostat" problem.
IIRC, there is a concept called "zonal heating" that might apply to
A/C as well and which appears to be designed to solve such problems.

Or you could just /move/ the thermostat to the room you most want to
control precisely. Easy to say than to do, however, I expect.

I once took a lot of fun out of one of my brother's lives by insisting
that the upstairs smoke alarm be moved from one side of a wall to
another (this was above a doorway through the wall, so it was very
much in the same general area). This meant that he could no longer
produce as much steam as possible while showering, open the bathroom
door, and take delight in our reaction when the smoke detector went
off. Because, now being behind the wall and empty door frame below, it
/didn't/ go off.

Moving things can be a /suprisingly/ effective method of controlling
the environment.

Unfortunately moving the thermostat would probably involve "pulling
wire", which is likely to cost a bit. And zonal heating involves
multiple thermostats (more wire-pulling, presumably) and (no doubt) a
more sophisticated blower/duct system.
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."
Lynn McGuire
2021-07-04 00:26:29 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Chrysi Cat
Post by Paul S Person
Post by Paul S Person
On Wed, 30 Jun 2021 22:05:42 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc
Post by Quadibloc
Post by Dimensional Traveler
A bit west of you I've already seen several 100+ days this month.
Dear me. West of me (in Vallejo)? Would that be in Marin
County? I should have expected anybody nearer the sea to have a
cooler climate ... but I've never lived in Marin, so what do I
know.
I live in Edmonton Alberta. Much chillier in the winter than California.
Well, yes.  More accurately, you're north-by-west of me.
/googles map
I sit corrected; you're north-by-EAST of me.  West of me is not
much (San Rafael, e.g.) before you're in the Pacific Ocean.
Post by Paul S Person
Post by Quadibloc
But today the temperature got up to 99 degrees, due to a very unusual
weather system, and it is expected to get there tomorrow, before starting
to cool off somewhat.
Is that the same thing that gave Seattle 3 100+ days in a row?
If so, you can have it -- but I suggest you send it on its way ASAP.
99 is nasty.
Damn right.  So far, we've had a few days in the low 80s, and
we're shaded from the south by a huge California live oak.  So it
hasn't been too bad.  /cross fingers
I managed to ... survive ... an internal temp of 96 for the last day,
but I hope to /never/ have to do that again. Well, in this life,
anyway.
I find anything up to 86 tolerable. 80 is, of course, a lot better.
Sitting here in my 73 F office with 94 F / 70% humidity outside.  All
air conditioners are in the blue and freely running even though they
are 17 years old.
Lynn
You say that as though it were an old A/C unit.
As far as I remember, we've never replaced the central-air compressor
for this house.
The house was built with central air in '90 or '91 and my parents have
been the homeowners since '98.
(IF we ever had anyone in to replace it, it would be back around the
time you bought yours. The thermostats are about a decade old or newer
[they're even that blue-tone background that most single-colour LCD is
these days], but they went in, I *think*, when the *furnaces* got
swapped out, not the A/C).
It keeps the hall with the thermostat at the requested temp, and would
likely do so even if we requested 60.
But we never _will_ because that's way too much electricity we'd be
asking of it. And that bit about "the hall with the thermostat" is
significant, too, because the living room is 20-plus feet high and has
windows all over the south, southwest, and west walls. And since the
thermostat _isn't_ there, the main living area is always 4-5 degrees in
the undesirable direction from the temperature at the thermostat. Still,
that's not an A/C unit problem, that's a "stupid placement for the
thermostat" problem.
I don't know where you live but here in the Houston, Texas area, air
conditioners work extra hard to remove the average 70% humidity from the
air. 17 years is fairly old for a/c units here.

Lynn
William Hyde
2021-07-01 20:06:14 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Paul S Person
On Wed, 30 Jun 2021 22:05:42 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc
Post by Quadibloc
Post by Dimensional Traveler
A bit west of you I've already seen several 100+ days this month.
Dear me. West of me (in Vallejo)? Would that be in Marin
County? I should have expected anybody nearer the sea to have a
cooler climate ... but I've never lived in Marin, so what do I
know.
I live in Edmonton Alberta. Much chillier in the winter than California.
But today the temperature got up to 99 degrees, due to a very unusual
weather system, and it is expected to get there tomorrow, before starting
to cool off somewhat.
Is that the same thing that gave Seattle 3 100+ days in a row?
If so, you can have it -- but I suggest you send it on its way ASAP.
99 is nasty.
The previous Canadian heat record dated from the 1930s. That has been shattered as
several places have beaten the old record by more than a degree. Lytton BC hit 49+C or
about 120F. It is now well over 451F in spots.

A dark and stormy night would be much appreciated, if the storm brought enough rain.

William Hyde
Dorothy J Heydt
2021-07-01 21:09:43 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by William Hyde
Post by Paul S Person
On Wed, 30 Jun 2021 22:05:42 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc
Post by Quadibloc
Post by Dimensional Traveler
A bit west of you I've already seen several 100+ days this month.
Dear me. West of me (in Vallejo)? Would that be in Marin
County? I should have expected anybody nearer the sea to have a
cooler climate ... but I've never lived in Marin, so what do I
know.
I live in Edmonton Alberta. Much chillier in the winter than California.
But today the temperature got up to 99 degrees, due to a very unusual
weather system, and it is expected to get there tomorrow, before starting
to cool off somewhat.
Is that the same thing that gave Seattle 3 100+ days in a row?
If so, you can have it -- but I suggest you send it on its way ASAP.
99 is nasty.
The previous Canadian heat record dated from the 1930s. That has been shattered as
several places have beaten the old record by more than a degree. Lytton BC hit 49+C or
about 120F. It is now well over 451F in spots.
A dark and stormy night would be much appreciated, if the storm brought enough rain.
And no lightning strikes, please!

Uh... it's gone past that. Lytton is in flames. It appears that
all the inhabitants got out in time.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-57678054
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/
William Hyde
2021-07-01 22:16:02 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Paul S Person
On Wed, 30 Jun 2021 22:05:42 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc
Post by Quadibloc
Post by Dimensional Traveler
A bit west of you I've already seen several 100+ days this month.
Dear me. West of me (in Vallejo)? Would that be in Marin
County? I should have expected anybody nearer the sea to have a
cooler climate ... but I've never lived in Marin, so what do I
know.
I live in Edmonton Alberta. Much chillier in the winter than California.
But today the temperature got up to 99 degrees, due to a very unusual
weather system, and it is expected to get there tomorrow, before starting
to cool off somewhat.
Is that the same thing that gave Seattle 3 100+ days in a row?
If so, you can have it -- but I suggest you send it on its way ASAP.
99 is nasty.
The previous Canadian heat record dated from the 1930s. That has been
shattered as
several places have beaten the old record by more than a degree. Lytton
BC hit 49+C or
about 120F. It is now well over 451F in spots.
A dark and stormy night would be much appreciated, if the storm brought enough rain.
And no lightning strikes, please!
Uh... it's gone past that. Lytton is in flames. It appears that
all the inhabitants got out in time.
Since the much larger town of Fort McMurray was evacuated and partially burnt
five years ago, they're getting good at getting out of town.

William Hyde
Dorothy J Heydt
2021-07-01 23:18:34 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by William Hyde
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Paul S Person
On Wed, 30 Jun 2021 22:05:42 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc
Post by Quadibloc
Post by Dimensional Traveler
A bit west of you I've already seen several 100+ days this month.
Dear me. West of me (in Vallejo)? Would that be in Marin
County? I should have expected anybody nearer the sea to have a
cooler climate ... but I've never lived in Marin, so what do I
know.
I live in Edmonton Alberta. Much chillier in the winter than California.
But today the temperature got up to 99 degrees, due to a very unusual
weather system, and it is expected to get there tomorrow, before starting
to cool off somewhat.
Is that the same thing that gave Seattle 3 100+ days in a row?
If so, you can have it -- but I suggest you send it on its way ASAP.
99 is nasty.
The previous Canadian heat record dated from the 1930s. That has been
shattered as
several places have beaten the old record by more than a degree. Lytton
BC hit 49+C or
about 120F. It is now well over 451F in spots.
A dark and stormy night would be much appreciated, if the storm brought enough rain.
And no lightning strikes, please!
Uh... it's gone past that. Lytton is in flames. It appears that
all the inhabitants got out in time.
Since the much larger town of Fort McMurray was evacuated and partially burnt
five years ago, they're getting good at getting out of town.
Good.

Last summer, the town just north of us, American Canyon, had some
serious brush fires. But they have a lot of brush; the area is
not as thoroughly built-up as Vallejo. Still, Hal and I should
probably discuss the possibility of fires here, and make an
emergency escape list, just in case this year is worse.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/
Paul S Person
2021-07-02 16:45:38 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by William Hyde
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Paul S Person
On Wed, 30 Jun 2021 22:05:42 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc
Post by Quadibloc
Post by Dimensional Traveler
A bit west of you I've already seen several 100+ days this month.
Dear me. West of me (in Vallejo)? Would that be in Marin
County? I should have expected anybody nearer the sea to have a
cooler climate ... but I've never lived in Marin, so what do I
know.
I live in Edmonton Alberta. Much chillier in the winter than California.
But today the temperature got up to 99 degrees, due to a very unusual
weather system, and it is expected to get there tomorrow, before starting
to cool off somewhat.
Is that the same thing that gave Seattle 3 100+ days in a row?
If so, you can have it -- but I suggest you send it on its way ASAP.
99 is nasty.
The previous Canadian heat record dated from the 1930s. That has been
shattered as
several places have beaten the old record by more than a degree. Lytton
BC hit 49+C or
about 120F. It is now well over 451F in spots.
A dark and stormy night would be much appreciated, if the storm brought enough rain.
And no lightning strikes, please!
Uh... it's gone past that. Lytton is in flames. It appears that
all the inhabitants got out in time.
Since the much larger town of Fort McMurray was evacuated and partially burnt
five years ago, they're getting good at getting out of town.
Good.
Last summer, the town just north of us, American Canyon, had some
serious brush fires. But they have a lot of brush; the area is
not as thoroughly built-up as Vallejo. Still, Hal and I should
probably discuss the possibility of fires here, and make an
emergency escape list, just in case this year is worse.
Last March, I received from our Homeowner's Insurance company a
postcard which, in the initimable style I used in summarizing
Insurance Company notices:

"[T]hreatens to send people out to protect the house in the event it
is threatened by a wildfire. They will also come back to undo all
their damage after the fire is over."

IIRC, this involves a variety of measures, the most exciting of which
is applying "fire-resistent gel" to the house.

OK, it's probably meant for smaller communities likely to find
themselves in the path (or the midst) of fire, not for houses like
ours, which is in the midst of a major city. The biggest threat /here/
is the haze, which people got the vapors about last year even though
it took three days of seeing yellow skies on the Weather App
(symbolizing haze) before any haze was actually visible.
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."
Dorothy J Heydt
2021-07-02 17:04:30 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Paul S Person
OK, it's probably meant for smaller communities likely to find
themselves in the path (or the midst) of fire, not for houses like
ours, which is in the midst of a major city. The biggest threat /here/
is the haze, which people got the vapors about last year even though
it took three days of seeing yellow skies on the Weather App
(symbolizing haze) before any haze was actually visible.
Where is it you live, again? Your last-year's experience sounds
a lot like ours, which is why I have the air quality site
bookmarked right under the weather forecast.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/
Paul S Person
2021-07-03 16:15:25 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Paul S Person
OK, it's probably meant for smaller communities likely to find
themselves in the path (or the midst) of fire, not for houses like
ours, which is in the midst of a major city. The biggest threat /here/
is the haze, which people got the vapors about last year even though
it took three days of seeing yellow skies on the Weather App
(symbolizing haze) before any haze was actually visible.
Where is it you live, again? Your last-year's experience sounds
a lot like ours, which is why I have the air quality site
bookmarked right under the weather forecast.
I'm in Seattle, WA.

During the recent unpleasantness, I activated the Weather app on my
Fire HD 6 and activated Location Services for it. It then offered
"Ravenna, WA" as an alternative. I don't know where that data comes
from (perhaps the UW), but it matched what I was experiencing a lot
better than the Seattle, WA data from SeaTac.

When I activated the Mapping app and activated Location Services for
it it showed /my house/ and my neighborhood. Searching Bing for
"Ravenna, WA" brought up only articles on my area, at least on the
first page. I was raised here, and have known for decades that our
house was build nearly 100 years ago in "Wassom's addition to Ravenna
Park", and (of course) played in Ravenna Park and explored the Ravine,
but I don't recall ever encountering "Ravenna, WA" as a location
before. Perhaps that's how Realtors think of us.

We had haze from BC fires, IIRC, two (or was it three?) years ago.
Last year we had haze from our own fires, including (IIRC) some on the
/west/ of the Cascades (the fires are usually east of the Cascades,
that is, in eastern Washington).
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."
Robert Woodward
2021-07-03 17:16:20 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Paul S Person
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Paul S Person
OK, it's probably meant for smaller communities likely to find
themselves in the path (or the midst) of fire, not for houses like
ours, which is in the midst of a major city. The biggest threat /here/
is the haze, which people got the vapors about last year even though
it took three days of seeing yellow skies on the Weather App
(symbolizing haze) before any haze was actually visible.
Where is it you live, again? Your last-year's experience sounds
a lot like ours, which is why I have the air quality site
bookmarked right under the weather forecast.
I'm in Seattle, WA.
During the recent unpleasantness, I activated the Weather app on my
Fire HD 6 and activated Location Services for it. It then offered
"Ravenna, WA" as an alternative. I don't know where that data comes
from (perhaps the UW), but it matched what I was experiencing a lot
better than the Seattle, WA data from SeaTac.
SeaTac tends to be a bit drier and warmer than the Lake Union station
that had been used as the official Seattle weather station.
Post by Paul S Person
When I activated the Mapping app and activated Location Services for
it it showed /my house/ and my neighborhood. Searching Bing for
"Ravenna, WA" brought up only articles on my area, at least on the
first page. I was raised here, and have known for decades that our
house was build nearly 100 years ago in "Wassom's addition to Ravenna
Park", and (of course) played in Ravenna Park and explored the Ravine,
but I don't recall ever encountering "Ravenna, WA" as a location
before. Perhaps that's how Realtors think of us.
We had haze from BC fires, IIRC, two (or was it three?) years ago.
Last year we had haze from our own fires, including (IIRC) some on the
/west/ of the Cascades (the fires are usually east of the Cascades,
that is, in eastern Washington).
It was 3 years ago; I was tempted to post a description under the title
"Life under a Red Star" at the time. IIRC, the upper level haze knocked
5-10 degrees Fahrenheit off the daily highs. The only other time I had
seen daylight look that odd was during the maximum partiality of the
solar eclipse a year early.
--
"We have advanced to new and surprising levels of bafflement."
Imperial Auditor Miles Vorkosigan describes progress in _Komarr_.
-------------------------------------------------------
Robert Woodward ***@drizzle.com
Paul S Person
2021-07-04 17:05:14 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Sat, 03 Jul 2021 10:16:20 -0700, Robert Woodward
Post by Robert Woodward
Post by Paul S Person
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Paul S Person
OK, it's probably meant for smaller communities likely to find
themselves in the path (or the midst) of fire, not for houses like
ours, which is in the midst of a major city. The biggest threat /here/
is the haze, which people got the vapors about last year even though
it took three days of seeing yellow skies on the Weather App
(symbolizing haze) before any haze was actually visible.
Where is it you live, again? Your last-year's experience sounds
a lot like ours, which is why I have the air quality site
bookmarked right under the weather forecast.
I'm in Seattle, WA.
During the recent unpleasantness, I activated the Weather app on my
Fire HD 6 and activated Location Services for it. It then offered
"Ravenna, WA" as an alternative. I don't know where that data comes
from (perhaps the UW), but it matched what I was experiencing a lot
better than the Seattle, WA data from SeaTac.
SeaTac tends to be a bit drier and warmer than the Lake Union station
that had been used as the official Seattle weather station.
SeaTac, being an airport, also has a /lot/ of cement and a /lack/ of
foliage. So it's no suprise that a closer source (UW or Lake Union or
wherever, with less concrete and more trees) was more accurate.
Post by Robert Woodward
Post by Paul S Person
When I activated the Mapping app and activated Location Services for
it it showed /my house/ and my neighborhood. Searching Bing for
"Ravenna, WA" brought up only articles on my area, at least on the
first page. I was raised here, and have known for decades that our
house was build nearly 100 years ago in "Wassom's addition to Ravenna
Park", and (of course) played in Ravenna Park and explored the Ravine,
but I don't recall ever encountering "Ravenna, WA" as a location
before. Perhaps that's how Realtors think of us.
We had haze from BC fires, IIRC, two (or was it three?) years ago.
Last year we had haze from our own fires, including (IIRC) some on the
/west/ of the Cascades (the fires are usually east of the Cascades,
that is, in eastern Washington).
It was 3 years ago; I was tempted to post a description under the title
"Life under a Red Star" at the time. IIRC, the upper level haze knocked
5-10 degrees Fahrenheit off the daily highs. The only other time I had
seen daylight look that odd was during the maximum partiality of the
solar eclipse a year early.
What got me was that the Win10 Weather App showed orange skies last
year for our fires when the skies were, in fact, perfectly normal. It
took three days before haze was apparent, and even then it always
seemed to be rather far off which, of course, is to say that you had
to be looking through several hundred feet of it to notice it.

Locals seemed to be very upset. I mean, it's not as if were a killer
fog or something /really/ serious. I guess decades of very clean and
clear air have raised people's expectations.
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."
Dorothy J Heydt
2021-07-03 17:08:56 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Paul S Person
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Paul S Person
OK, it's probably meant for smaller communities likely to find
themselves in the path (or the midst) of fire, not for houses like
ours, which is in the midst of a major city. The biggest threat /here/
is the haze, which people got the vapors about last year even though
it took three days of seeing yellow skies on the Weather App
(symbolizing haze) before any haze was actually visible.
Where is it you live, again? Your last-year's experience sounds
a lot like ours, which is why I have the air quality site
bookmarked right under the weather forecast.
I'm in Seattle, WA.
Oh, wow. Trust you're doing ok?
Post by Paul S Person
During the recent unpleasantness, I activated the Weather app on my
Fire HD 6 and activated Location Services for it. It then offered
"Ravenna, WA" as an alternative. I don't know where that data comes
from (perhaps the UW), but it matched what I was experiencing a lot
better than the Seattle, WA data from SeaTac.
When I activated the Mapping app and activated Location Services for
it it showed /my house/ and my neighborhood. Searching Bing for
"Ravenna, WA" brought up only articles on my area, at least on the
first page. I was raised here, and have known for decades that our
house was build nearly 100 years ago in "Wassom's addition to Ravenna
Park", and (of course) played in Ravenna Park and explored the Ravine,
but I don't recall ever encountering "Ravenna, WA" as a location
before. Perhaps that's how Realtors think of us.
We had haze from BC fires, IIRC, two (or was it three?) years ago.
Last year we had haze from our own fires, including (IIRC) some on the
/west/ of the Cascades (the fires are usually east of the Cascades,
that is, in eastern Washington).
Hang in there.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/
Paul S Person
2021-07-04 16:57:47 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Paul S Person
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Paul S Person
OK, it's probably meant for smaller communities likely to find
themselves in the path (or the midst) of fire, not for houses like
ours, which is in the midst of a major city. The biggest threat /here/
is the haze, which people got the vapors about last year even though
it took three days of seeing yellow skies on the Weather App
(symbolizing haze) before any haze was actually visible.
Where is it you live, again? Your last-year's experience sounds
a lot like ours, which is why I have the air quality site
bookmarked right under the weather forecast.
I'm in Seattle, WA.
Oh, wow. Trust you're doing ok?
I am now (indoor temp 78 -- and that's next to the computer!).
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Paul S Person
During the recent unpleasantness, I activated the Weather app on my
Fire HD 6 and activated Location Services for it. It then offered
"Ravenna, WA" as an alternative. I don't know where that data comes
from (perhaps the UW), but it matched what I was experiencing a lot
better than the Seattle, WA data from SeaTac.
When I activated the Mapping app and activated Location Services for
it it showed /my house/ and my neighborhood. Searching Bing for
"Ravenna, WA" brought up only articles on my area, at least on the
first page. I was raised here, and have known for decades that our
house was build nearly 100 years ago in "Wassom's addition to Ravenna
Park", and (of course) played in Ravenna Park and explored the Ravine,
but I don't recall ever encountering "Ravenna, WA" as a location
before. Perhaps that's how Realtors think of us.
We had haze from BC fires, IIRC, two (or was it three?) years ago.
Last year we had haze from our own fires, including (IIRC) some on the
/west/ of the Cascades (the fires are usually east of the Cascades,
that is, in eastern Washington).
Hang in there.
Will do.

You do the same.
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."
Dorothy J Heydt
2021-07-04 18:00:52 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Paul S Person
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Paul S Person
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Paul S Person
OK, it's probably meant for smaller communities likely to find
themselves in the path (or the midst) of fire, not for houses like
ours, which is in the midst of a major city. The biggest threat /here/
is the haze, which people got the vapors about last year even though
it took three days of seeing yellow skies on the Weather App
(symbolizing haze) before any haze was actually visible.
Where is it you live, again? Your last-year's experience sounds
a lot like ours, which is why I have the air quality site
bookmarked right under the weather forecast.
I'm in Seattle, WA.
Oh, wow. Trust you're doing ok?
I am now (indoor temp 78 -- and that's next to the computer!).
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Paul S Person
During the recent unpleasantness, I activated the Weather app on my
Fire HD 6 and activated Location Services for it. It then offered
"Ravenna, WA" as an alternative. I don't know where that data comes
from (perhaps the UW), but it matched what I was experiencing a lot
better than the Seattle, WA data from SeaTac.
When I activated the Mapping app and activated Location Services for
it it showed /my house/ and my neighborhood. Searching Bing for
"Ravenna, WA" brought up only articles on my area, at least on the
first page. I was raised here, and have known for decades that our
house was build nearly 100 years ago in "Wassom's addition to Ravenna
Park", and (of course) played in Ravenna Park and explored the Ravine,
but I don't recall ever encountering "Ravenna, WA" as a location
before. Perhaps that's how Realtors think of us.
We had haze from BC fires, IIRC, two (or was it three?) years ago.
Last year we had haze from our own fires, including (IIRC) some on the
/west/ of the Cascades (the fires are usually east of the Cascades,
that is, in eastern Washington).
Hang in there.
Will do.
You do the same.
Not wishing to hurt anybody's feelings, but ... the local weather
site says it's 66 F outside. I'm sitting under a blanket with my
feet on a heating pad, so they're okay, but my hands are cold.

Hal is sitting next to an open* window with the fan blasting on
him. He's a polar bear.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/
William Hyde
2021-07-02 21:07:09 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by William Hyde
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Paul S Person
On Wed, 30 Jun 2021 22:05:42 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc
Post by Quadibloc
Post by Dimensional Traveler
A bit west of you I've already seen several 100+ days this month.
Dear me. West of me (in Vallejo)? Would that be in Marin
County? I should have expected anybody nearer the sea to have a
cooler climate ... but I've never lived in Marin, so what do I
know.
I live in Edmonton Alberta. Much chillier in the winter than California.
But today the temperature got up to 99 degrees, due to a very unusual
weather system, and it is expected to get there tomorrow, before starting
to cool off somewhat.
Is that the same thing that gave Seattle 3 100+ days in a row?
If so, you can have it -- but I suggest you send it on its way ASAP.
99 is nasty.
The previous Canadian heat record dated from the 1930s. That has been
shattered as
several places have beaten the old record by more than a degree. Lytton
BC hit 49+C or
about 120F. It is now well over 451F in spots.
A dark and stormy night would be much appreciated, if the storm brought
enough rain.
And no lightning strikes, please!
Uh... it's gone past that. Lytton is in flames. It appears that
all the inhabitants got out in time.
Since the much larger town of Fort McMurray was evacuated and partially burnt
five years ago, they're getting good at getting out of town.
Good.
All but two people accounted for, out of about a thousand in the village and immediate surroundings.

Not much is left of the town, apparently. Even the bridges are damaged.

Some towns in the area are experiencing both fire and flood. The heat wave is
causing a vastly greater melt of the snow pack so water levels are rising. One town
is busy raising the banks along it's reservoir which would otherwise have flooded the town.
And still may.

The lower snow pack may lead to water shortages later in the summer.

We haven't got a full count of the heat-related deaths in a part of the country where
AC is scarce, but it seems to be in the hundreds.

If only someone had predicted this.
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Last summer, the town just north of us, American Canyon, had some
serious brush fires. But they have a lot of brush; the area is
not as thoroughly built-up as Vallejo. Still, Hal and I should
probably discuss the possibility of fires here, and make an
emergency escape list, just in case this year is worse.
Sounds wise to me.

William Hyde
Titus G
2021-07-02 22:06:26 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On 3/07/21 9:07 am, William Hyde wrote:
snippage for brevity
Post by William Hyde
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
The previous Canadian heat record dated from the 1930s. That has been
shattered as
several places have beaten the old record by more than a degree. Lytton
BC hit 49+C or
about 120F. It is now well over 451F in spots.
Uh... it's gone past that. Lytton is in flames. It appears that
all the inhabitants got out in time.
All but two people accounted for, out of about a thousand in the village and immediate surroundings.
Not much is left of the town, apparently. Even the bridges are damaged.
Some towns in the area are experiencing both fire and flood. The heat wave is
causing a vastly greater melt of the snow pack so water levels are rising. One town
is busy raising the banks along it's reservoir which would otherwise have flooded the town.
And still may.
The lower snow pack may lead to water shortages later in the summer.
We haven't got a full count of the heat-related deaths in a part of the country where
AC is scarce, but it seems to be in the hundreds.
If only someone had predicted this.
The background is explained in layman's terms at:

https://www.economist.com/the-economist-explains/2021/06/29/why-are-the-north-western-united-states-and-british-columbia-suffering-a-heatwave

Due to climate change, they predict that such heat domes will become
more common and more extreme. There is also an article on the world wide
situation and future problems:
https://www.economist.com/leaders/2021/07/03/the-danger-posed-by-heatwaves-deserves-to-be-taken-more-seriously
Paul S Person
2021-07-03 16:47:21 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Titus G
snippage for brevity
Post by William Hyde
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
The previous Canadian heat record dated from the 1930s. That has been
shattered as
several places have beaten the old record by more than a degree. Lytton
BC hit 49+C or
about 120F. It is now well over 451F in spots.
Uh... it's gone past that. Lytton is in flames. It appears that
all the inhabitants got out in time.
All but two people accounted for, out of about a thousand in the village and immediate surroundings.
Not much is left of the town, apparently. Even the bridges are damaged.
Some towns in the area are experiencing both fire and flood. The heat wave is
causing a vastly greater melt of the snow pack so water levels are rising. One town
is busy raising the banks along it's reservoir which would otherwise have flooded the town.
And still may.
The lower snow pack may lead to water shortages later in the summer.
We haven't got a full count of the heat-related deaths in a part of the country where
AC is scarce, but it seems to be in the hundreds.
If only someone had predicted this.
https://www.economist.com/the-economist-explains/2021/06/29/why-are-the-north-western-united-states-and-british-columbia-suffering-a-heatwave
Due to climate change, they predict that such heat domes will become
more common and more extreme.
Well, of course they do. And some may even be claiming that the
warnings about climate change /were/ predictions of this.

What I found interesting is that one account blamed the "dome" of the
Jet Stream. I haven't seen/heard the Jet Stream invoked to explain our
weather since the New Weather Gods (El Nino and La Nina) were
discovered.
Post by Titus G
There is also an article on the world wide
https://www.economist.com/leaders/2021/07/03/the-danger-posed-by-heatwaves-deserves-to-be-taken-more-seriously
The articles require mucking about with cookie policies and/or
establishing an account, so The Economist is useless as a reference.
Sorry about that.

But the solution is obvious to anyone who has seen the Wells-written
/Things to Come/: move underground. Use the surface to raise crops,
cattle, fruit and as very large areas set apart for wildlife.

Don't bother with the normal reasons it can't be done. Necessity is
the mother of invention, and I suspect that the survivors will have
done it before this is over.
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."
William Hyde
2021-07-03 21:30:43 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Paul S Person
Post by Titus G
snippage for brevity
Post by William Hyde
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
The previous Canadian heat record dated from the 1930s. That has been
shattered as
several places have beaten the old record by more than a degree. Lytton
BC hit 49+C or
about 120F. It is now well over 451F in spots.
Uh... it's gone past that. Lytton is in flames. It appears that
all the inhabitants got out in time.
All but two people accounted for, out of about a thousand in the village and immediate surroundings.
Not much is left of the town, apparently. Even the bridges are damaged.
Some towns in the area are experiencing both fire and flood. The heat wave is
causing a vastly greater melt of the snow pack so water levels are rising. One town
is busy raising the banks along it's reservoir which would otherwise have flooded the town.
And still may.
The lower snow pack may lead to water shortages later in the summer.
We haven't got a full count of the heat-related deaths in a part of the country where
AC is scarce, but it seems to be in the hundreds.
If only someone had predicted this.
https://www.economist.com/the-economist-explains/2021/06/29/why-are-the-north-western-united-states-and-british-columbia-suffering-a-heatwave
Due to climate change, they predict that such heat domes will become
more common and more extreme.
Well, of course they do. And some may even be claiming that the
warnings about climate change /were/ predictions of this.
From IPCC:

"Fire frequency is expected to increase with human-induced climate change, especially where precipitation remains the same or is reduced (Stocks et al., 1998). "

Note that this refers to forest fires, not grass fires. Grass fires are decreasing, as the amount of grassland
decreases. Eventually the same will happen with forest fires, I assume. Problem solved!
Post by Paul S Person
What I found interesting is that one account blamed the "dome" of
"on"?

the
Post by Paul S Person
Jet Stream. I haven't seen/heard the Jet Stream invoked to explain our
weather since the New Weather Gods (El Nino and La Nina) were
discovered.
Actually we've known about ENSO for over a century. And our weather in midlatitudes is
always a function of the jet stream to some degree.

The midlatitude jet stream (one of several) depends on the pole to equator temperature gradient for
both it's intensity and consistency. As the arctic is warming much faster than the tropics, the
Jet Stream will be changing. What we are seeing now is more or less the same category of event as the
"polar vortex" outbreaks of a few years ago, as flow gets particularly non-zonal. Doesn't tell us anything
about the rest of the summer, though. Could be cold and wet in the same area. Or not.


William Hyde
Paul S Person
2021-07-04 17:15:40 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Sat, 3 Jul 2021 14:30:43 -0700 (PDT), William Hyde
Post by William Hyde
Post by Paul S Person
Post by Titus G
snippage for brevity
Post by William Hyde
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
The previous Canadian heat record dated from the 1930s. That has been
shattered as
several places have beaten the old record by more than a degree. Lytton
BC hit 49+C or
about 120F. It is now well over 451F in spots.
Uh... it's gone past that. Lytton is in flames. It appears that
all the inhabitants got out in time.
All but two people accounted for, out of about a thousand in the village and immediate surroundings.
Not much is left of the town, apparently. Even the bridges are damaged.
Some towns in the area are experiencing both fire and flood. The heat wave is
causing a vastly greater melt of the snow pack so water levels are rising. One town
is busy raising the banks along it's reservoir which would otherwise have flooded the town.
And still may.
The lower snow pack may lead to water shortages later in the summer.
We haven't got a full count of the heat-related deaths in a part of the country where
AC is scarce, but it seems to be in the hundreds.
If only someone had predicted this.
https://www.economist.com/the-economist-explains/2021/06/29/why-are-the-north-western-united-states-and-british-columbia-suffering-a-heatwave
Due to climate change, they predict that such heat domes will become
more common and more extreme.
Well, of course they do. And some may even be claiming that the
warnings about climate change /were/ predictions of this.
"Fire frequency is expected to increase with human-induced climate change, especially where precipitation remains the same or is reduced (Stocks et al., 1998). "
Note that this refers to forest fires, not grass fires. Grass fires are decreasing, as the amount of grassland
decreases. Eventually the same will happen with forest fires, I assume. Problem solved!
Post by Paul S Person
What I found interesting is that one account blamed the "dome" of
"on"?
Indeed. Thanks.
Post by William Hyde
the
Post by Paul S Person
Jet Stream. I haven't seen/heard the Jet Stream invoked to explain our
weather since the New Weather Gods (El Nino and La Nina) were
discovered.
Actually we've known about ENSO for over a century. And our weather in midlatitudes is
always a function of the jet stream to some degree.
But they haven't been treated as Weather Gods for nearly that long.

In the 50s/60s, before the new Weather Gods, the Jet Stream was the
explainer of /all/ our weather:

-- when it got cold, the Jet Stream had moved South, pushing cold air
into our area
-- when it got warm (as recently), the Jet Stream had moved North,
pulling hot air into our area

Simple, clear, unambiguous, and always available. A natural
phenomenon, not a Weather God.
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."
William Hyde
2021-07-04 20:30:05 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Paul S Person
On Sat, 3 Jul 2021 14:30:43 -0700 (PDT), William Hyde
Post by William Hyde
Post by Paul S Person
Post by Titus G
snippage for brevity
Post by William Hyde
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
The previous Canadian heat record dated from the 1930s. That has been
shattered as
several places have beaten the old record by more than a degree. Lytton
BC hit 49+C or
about 120F. It is now well over 451F in spots.
Uh... it's gone past that. Lytton is in flames. It appears that
all the inhabitants got out in time.
All but two people accounted for, out of about a thousand in the village and immediate surroundings.
Not much is left of the town, apparently. Even the bridges are damaged.
Some towns in the area are experiencing both fire and flood. The heat wave is
causing a vastly greater melt of the snow pack so water levels are rising. One town
is busy raising the banks along it's reservoir which would otherwise have flooded the town.
And still may.
The lower snow pack may lead to water shortages later in the summer.
We haven't got a full count of the heat-related deaths in a part of the country where
AC is scarce, but it seems to be in the hundreds.
If only someone had predicted this.
https://www.economist.com/the-economist-explains/2021/06/29/why-are-the-north-western-united-states-and-british-columbia-suffering-a-heatwave
Due to climate change, they predict that such heat domes will become
more common and more extreme.
Well, of course they do. And some may even be claiming that the
warnings about climate change /were/ predictions of this.
"Fire frequency is expected to increase with human-induced climate change, especially where precipitation remains the same or is reduced (Stocks et al., 1998). "
Note that this refers to forest fires, not grass fires. Grass fires are decreasing, as the amount of grassland
decreases. Eventually the same will happen with forest fires, I assume. Problem solved!
Post by Paul S Person
What I found interesting is that one account blamed the "dome" of
"on"?
Indeed. Thanks.
Post by William Hyde
the
Post by Paul S Person
Jet Stream. I haven't seen/heard the Jet Stream invoked to explain our
weather since the New Weather Gods (El Nino and La Nina) were
discovered.
Actually we've known about ENSO for over a century. And our weather in midlatitudes is
always a function of the jet stream to some degree.
But they haven't been treated as Weather Gods for nearly that long.
Yes, I think it was the 83 el Nino that broke into public awareness. People started blaming
any intense event (hurricanes aside) on it (heard on an SF radio "Is this rainstorm an El Nino rainstorm?").

This may be because the idea of teleconnection - predictable effects from a cause at great distance,
was becoming more widely known and applied to ENSO. So that a month of heavy snow, if not one
snowstorm, in Kentucky could be blamed on it.

When I went to NASA in 86 I think three of the first four seminars I attended were on ENSO and it's
far-reaching effects.

ISTR that the 75/76 El Nino got some mention - we had huge snowstorms in Kitchener/Waterloo and someone at the
university uttered the magic words (I said "Hun? El what?) but it didn't catch on.

When I made the switch to climate, I was very surprised at just how long people had been analyzing
what we now cal ENSO.
Post by Paul S Person
In the 50s/60s, before the new Weather Gods, the Jet Stream was the
-- when it got cold, the Jet Stream had moved South, pushing cold air
into our area
-- when it got warm (as recently), the Jet Stream had moved North,
pulling hot air into our area
Simple, clear, unambiguous, and always available. A natural
phenomenon, not a Weather God.
ENSO was pretty mysterious for a long time. The jet streams were better understood.

William Hyde

Scott Lurndal
2021-07-03 17:38:54 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Titus G
snippage for brevity
Post by William Hyde
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
The previous Canadian heat record dated from the 1930s. That has been
shattered as
several places have beaten the old record by more than a degree. Lytton
BC hit 49+C or
about 120F. It is now well over 451F in spots.
Uh... it's gone past that. Lytton is in flames. It appears that
all the inhabitants got out in time.
All but two people accounted for, out of about a thousand in the village and immediate surroundings.
Not much is left of the town, apparently. Even the bridges are damaged.
Some towns in the area are experiencing both fire and flood. The heat wave is
causing a vastly greater melt of the snow pack so water levels are rising. One town
is busy raising the banks along it's reservoir which would otherwise have flooded the town.
And still may.
The lower snow pack may lead to water shortages later in the summer.
We haven't got a full count of the heat-related deaths in a part of the country where
AC is scarce, but it seems to be in the hundreds.
If only someone had predicted this.
I don't believe Dr. Hyde can be considered a layman with respect to this
particular topic.
William Hyde
2021-07-03 21:35:42 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Scott Lurndal
Post by Titus G
snippage for brevity
Post by William Hyde
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
The previous Canadian heat record dated from the 1930s. That has been
shattered as
several places have beaten the old record by more than a degree. Lytton
BC hit 49+C or
about 120F. It is now well over 451F in spots.
Uh... it's gone past that. Lytton is in flames. It appears that
all the inhabitants got out in time.
All but two people accounted for, out of about a thousand in the village and immediate surroundings.
Not much is left of the town, apparently. Even the bridges are damaged.
Some towns in the area are experiencing both fire and flood. The heat wave is
causing a vastly greater melt of the snow pack so water levels are rising. One town
is busy raising the banks along it's reservoir which would otherwise have flooded the town.
And still may.
The lower snow pack may lead to water shortages later in the summer.
We haven't got a full count of the heat-related deaths in a part of the country where
AC is scarce, but it seems to be in the hundreds.
If only someone had predicted this.
I don't believe Dr. Hyde can be considered a layman with respect to this
particular topic.
The way I'm forgetting things, I'll be back to "See Spot Run" any day now.

I console myself with the fact that Mikhail Tal, the world chess champion, used to watch beginners'
chess programs even when in his prime. "It never hurts to brush up on the fundamentals" he said (whether
in Russian, Latvian, Yiddish, German, or English I do not know).

Or maybe he was avoiding doing the laundry.

William Hyde
Titus G
2021-07-04 03:12:30 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Scott Lurndal
Post by Titus G
snippage for brevity
I don't believe Dr. Hyde can be considered a layman with respect to this
particular topic.
Agreed. But I am, and was posting to the group and the issue of no
predictions which the Economist articles addressed. I was not aware that
that implied that I considered William Hyde to be a layman. I do not.
Paul S Person
2021-07-02 16:37:49 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Thu, 1 Jul 2021 15:16:02 -0700 (PDT), William Hyde
Post by William Hyde
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Paul S Person
On Wed, 30 Jun 2021 22:05:42 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc
Post by Quadibloc
Post by Dimensional Traveler
A bit west of you I've already seen several 100+ days this month.
Dear me. West of me (in Vallejo)? Would that be in Marin
County? I should have expected anybody nearer the sea to have a
cooler climate ... but I've never lived in Marin, so what do I
know.
I live in Edmonton Alberta. Much chillier in the winter than California.
But today the temperature got up to 99 degrees, due to a very unusual
weather system, and it is expected to get there tomorrow, before starting
to cool off somewhat.
Is that the same thing that gave Seattle 3 100+ days in a row?
If so, you can have it -- but I suggest you send it on its way ASAP.
99 is nasty.
The previous Canadian heat record dated from the 1930s. That has been
shattered as
several places have beaten the old record by more than a degree. Lytton
BC hit 49+C or
about 120F. It is now well over 451F in spots.
A dark and stormy night would be much appreciated, if the storm brought enough rain.
And no lightning strikes, please!
Uh... it's gone past that. Lytton is in flames. It appears that
all the inhabitants got out in time.
Since the much larger town of Fort McMurray was evacuated and partially burnt
five years ago, they're getting good at getting out of town.
Practice makes perfect.
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."
Kevrob
2021-06-25 21:17:29 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by -dsr-
Post by The Horny Goat
On Wed, 21 Apr 2021 16:31:09 -0400, J. Clarke
Post by Robert Carnegie
I'm trying to remember where I recently saw coverage
that indirectly implies it would be a good idea. Quora?
That Canadian roofs currently are meant to stand up
to quite a lot of snow, but sometimes don't.
Must be talking about Toronto which is one of the few places on the
planet where you can own both a snow blower and air conditionings and
not be considered crazy (Says this smug Vancouverite who spent 4 years
living there 30 years ago and has no desire to go back)
Assuming that if you live in the most urban areas, you don't need a snow
blower personally because you expect the city to take care of the streets
and sidewalks...
Streets? Yes, though some towns do a poor job of it.

Sidewalks are the responsibility of the property owner.
Landlords may require the tenant to clear the walk,
especially if the building is a single-family residence.
It's a good idea to agree who takes care of that before
moving in. Where I've lived, not clearing the walk can
result in municipal citations and fines. Worst case,
the city clears the snow and adds the cost of doing so
to the owner's property tax bill if the ticket isn't paid
promptly.
Post by -dsr-
I'm pretty sure the zone of "snow blower and a/c both desirable" extends
from mid-Maine down through Pennsylvania and westward to the Mississippi.
Farther west than that, I'm afraid.

https://www.cnn.com/2021/06/16/weather/west-heat-wave-records-drought-climate/index.html
--
Kevin R
Dorothy J Heydt
2021-06-25 21:41:37 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Kevrob
Post by -dsr-
Post by The Horny Goat
On Wed, 21 Apr 2021 16:31:09 -0400, J. Clarke
Post by Robert Carnegie
I'm trying to remember where I recently saw coverage
that indirectly implies it would be a good idea. Quora?
That Canadian roofs currently are meant to stand up
to quite a lot of snow, but sometimes don't.
Must be talking about Toronto which is one of the few places on the
planet where you can own both a snow blower and air conditionings and
not be considered crazy (Says this smug Vancouverite who spent 4 years
living there 30 years ago and has no desire to go back)
Assuming that if you live in the most urban areas, you don't need a snow
blower personally because you expect the city to take care of the streets
and sidewalks...
Streets? Yes, though some towns do a poor job of it.
Sidewalks are the responsibility of the property owner.
Landlords may require the tenant to clear the walk,
especially if the building is a single-family residence.
It's a good idea to agree who takes care of that before
moving in. Where I've lived, not clearing the walk can
result in municipal citations and fines. Worst case,
the city clears the snow and adds the cost of doing so
to the owner's property tax bill if the ticket isn't paid
promptly.
Post by -dsr-
I'm pretty sure the zone of "snow blower and a/c both desirable" extends
from mid-Maine down through Pennsylvania and westward to the Mississippi.
Farther west than that, I'm afraid.
https://www.cnn.com/2021/06/16/weather/west-heat-wave-records-drought-climate/index.html
But we seldom get snow at sea level; snow is something that you
make sure you have chains for the car, then pack the kids into
warm clothing and drive a couple hundred miles eastward into the
Sierras for.

The last time we had any snow on the ground (and it was a light
dusting) was in 1978 or thereabouts.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/
Joy Beeson
2021-06-27 02:38:16 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Fri, 25 Jun 2021 13:07:04 -0400, -dsr-
Post by -dsr-
I'm pretty sure the zone of "snow blower and a/c both desirable" extends
from mid-Maine down through Pennsylvania and westward to the Mississippi.
Here in northern Indiana, we have whole-house air conditioning (which
has been essential for people in their eighties of late) but we don't
own a snow blower.

We hire a guy with a snow plow to clear our drive.
--
Joy Beeson
joy beeson at centurylink dot net
http://wlweather.net/PAGEJOY/
Scott Lurndal
2021-06-27 18:01:36 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Joy Beeson
On Fri, 25 Jun 2021 13:07:04 -0400, -dsr-
Post by -dsr-
I'm pretty sure the zone of "snow blower and a/c both desirable" extends
from mid-Maine down through Pennsylvania and westward to the Mississippi.
Here in northern Indiana, we have whole-house air conditioning (which
has been essential for people in their eighties of late) but we don't
own a snow blower.
The oppressive humidity in that part of the country
almost requires A/C, even on mild days. True in Wisconsin
as well (we got a window unit sometime in the early 70's),
and had it in the 1964 Chevy Impala wagon.
William Hyde
2021-06-25 18:12:25 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by The Horny Goat
On Wed, 21 Apr 2021 16:31:09 -0400, J. Clarke
Post by Robert Carnegie
I'm trying to remember where I recently saw coverage
that indirectly implies it would be a good idea. Quora?
That Canadian roofs currently are meant to stand up
to quite a lot of snow, but sometimes don't.
Must be talking about Toronto which is one of the few places on the
planet where you can own both a snow blower and air conditionings and
not be considered crazy (Says this smug Vancouverite who spent 4 years
living there 30 years ago and has no desire to go back)
My air conditioner is being replaced even as I type. I do need it, but not
as much as I used to. My time in Texas did me good. I can recall thinking that Toronto
summers were very hot, and a Vancouver transplant I knew at the time ran away to Scotland
to avoid them, but they don't seem so bad now.


Until about six years ago I shoveled the driveway (slowly, well aware of the fate of Cyril Kornbluth) but
my neighbor acquired a snowblower and does now does my driveway, among
others. I try to get out with my shovel before he does, but he's a very early
riser and I distinctly am not.

William Hyde
Dorothy J Heydt
2021-06-25 18:45:21 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by William Hyde
Post by The Horny Goat
On Wed, 21 Apr 2021 16:31:09 -0400, J. Clarke
Post by Robert Carnegie
I'm trying to remember where I recently saw coverage
that indirectly implies it would be a good idea. Quora?
That Canadian roofs currently are meant to stand up
to quite a lot of snow, but sometimes don't.
Must be talking about Toronto which is one of the few places on the
planet where you can own both a snow blower and air conditionings and
not be considered crazy (Says this smug Vancouverite who spent 4 years
living there 30 years ago and has no desire to go back)
My air conditioner is being replaced even as I type. I do need it, but not
as much as I used to. My time in Texas did me good. I can recall thinking that Toronto
summers were very hot, and a Vancouver transplant I knew at the time ran away to Scotland
to avoid them, but they don't seem so bad now.
Until about six years ago I shoveled the driveway (slowly, well aware
of the fate of Cyril Kornbluth) but
my neighbor acquired a snowblower and does now does my driveway, among
others. I try to get out with my shovel before he does, but he's a very early
riser and I distinctly am not.
Cherish him. Do you bake? Find out what kind of cookies he
likes.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/
William Hyde
2021-06-25 20:04:33 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by The Horny Goat
On Wed, 21 Apr 2021 16:31:09 -0400, J. Clarke
Post by Robert Carnegie
I'm trying to remember where I recently saw coverage
that indirectly implies it would be a good idea. Quora?
That Canadian roofs currently are meant to stand up
to quite a lot of snow, but sometimes don't.
Must be talking about Toronto which is one of the few places on the
planet where you can own both a snow blower and air conditionings and
not be considered crazy (Says this smug Vancouverite who spent 4 years
living there 30 years ago and has no desire to go back)
My air conditioner is being replaced even as I type. I do need it, but not
as much as I used to. My time in Texas did me good. I can recall
thinking that Toronto
summers were very hot, and a Vancouver transplant I knew at the time ran away to Scotland
to avoid them, but they don't seem so bad now.
Until about six years ago I shoveled the driveway (slowly, well aware
of the fate of Cyril Kornbluth) but
my neighbor acquired a snowblower and does now does my driveway, among
others. I try to get out with my shovel before he does, but he's a very early
riser and I distinctly am not.
Cherish him. Do you bake? Find out what kind of cookies he
likes.
I buy him beer and her wine.

They are very nice people. Known them for decades.

The real issue is the guy across the street. Eighty years old with a quadruple bypass, he still insists
on shoveling his driveway. And he is an early riser. Got to move fast to stop him from killing
himself.

William Hyde
Dorothy J Heydt
2021-06-25 21:05:29 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by William Hyde
Post by The Horny Goat
On Wed, 21 Apr 2021 16:31:09 -0400, J. Clarke
Post by Robert Carnegie
I'm trying to remember where I recently saw coverage
that indirectly implies it would be a good idea. Quora?
That Canadian roofs currently are meant to stand up
to quite a lot of snow, but sometimes don't.
Must be talking about Toronto which is one of the few places on the
planet where you can own both a snow blower and air conditionings and
not be considered crazy (Says this smug Vancouverite who spent 4 years
living there 30 years ago and has no desire to go back)
My air conditioner is being replaced even as I type. I do need it, but not
as much as I used to. My time in Texas did me good. I can recall
thinking that Toronto
summers were very hot, and a Vancouver transplant I knew at the time ran
away to Scotland
to avoid them, but they don't seem so bad now.
Until about six years ago I shoveled the driveway (slowly, well aware
of the fate of Cyril Kornbluth) but
my neighbor acquired a snowblower and does now does my driveway, among
others. I try to get out with my shovel before he does, but he's a
very early
riser and I distinctly am not.
Cherish him. Do you bake? Find out what kind of cookies he
likes.
I buy him beer and her wine.
They are very nice people. Known them for decades.
The real issue is the guy across the street. Eighty years old with a
quadruple bypass, he still insists
on shoveling his driveway. And he is an early riser. Got to move fast
to stop him from killing
himself.
Well, keep trying. He sounds like one worth preserving.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/
William Hyde
2021-06-26 18:38:28 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by William Hyde
Post by The Horny Goat
On Wed, 21 Apr 2021 16:31:09 -0400, J. Clarke
Post by Robert Carnegie
I'm trying to remember where I recently saw coverage
that indirectly implies it would be a good idea. Quora?
That Canadian roofs currently are meant to stand up
to quite a lot of snow, but sometimes don't.
Must be talking about Toronto which is one of the few places on the
planet where you can own both a snow blower and air conditionings and
not be considered crazy (Says this smug Vancouverite who spent 4 years
living there 30 years ago and has no desire to go back)
My air conditioner is being replaced even as I type. I do need it, but not
as much as I used to. My time in Texas did me good. I can recall
thinking that Toronto
summers were very hot, and a Vancouver transplant I knew at the time ran
away to Scotland
to avoid them, but they don't seem so bad now.
Until about six years ago I shoveled the driveway (slowly, well aware
of the fate of Cyril Kornbluth) but
my neighbor acquired a snowblower and does now does my driveway, among
others. I try to get out with my shovel before he does, but he's a
very early
riser and I distinctly am not.
Cherish him. Do you bake? Find out what kind of cookies he
likes.
I buy him beer and her wine.
They are very nice people. Known them for decades.
The real issue is the guy across the street. Eighty years old with a
quadruple bypass, he still insists
on shoveling his driveway. And he is an early riser. Got to move fast
to stop him from killing
himself.
Well, keep trying. He sounds like one worth preserving.
We must. If we lose him and a small number of others, I'll be the oldest person
on the street!

William Hyde
William Hyde
2021-04-21 19:45:13 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Scott Lurndal
Apparently, SpaceX is starting another business to run next to StarLink,=
=20
Post by Scott Lurndal
StarPower. Solar Power satellites to portable microwave receivers. It=20
will probably melt the snow off your roof too.
No, it won't "melt the snow off your roof".
These satellites are in low earth orbit, so half of the time they are on th=
e night side of the earth, and receive no sunlight.
That is indeed, true. My point was that the microwave power density will be
below 100w/m2, which is less than 10% of the solar energy also reaching the
earths surface (the sun's energy is 1360w/m2).
A planar surface facing the sun above the atmosphere gets that number, sure, but the average insolation at the earth's surface is more like 240W/m2. Divide by four for sphericity, and about 30% is reflected.

William Hyde
Jonathan
2021-04-21 22:05:59 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by William Hyde
Post by Scott Lurndal
Apparently, SpaceX is starting another business to run next to StarLink,=
=20
Post by Scott Lurndal
StarPower. Solar Power satellites to portable microwave receivers. It=20
will probably melt the snow off your roof too.
No, it won't "melt the snow off your roof".
These satellites are in low earth orbit, so half of the time they are on th=
e night side of the earth, and receive no sunlight.
That is indeed, true. My point was that the microwave power density will be
below 100w/m2, which is less than 10% of the solar energy also reaching the
earths surface (the sun's energy is 1360w/m2).
A planar surface facing the sun above the atmosphere gets that number, sure, but the average insolation at the earth's surface is more like 240W/m2. Divide by four for sphericity, and about 30% is reflected.
William Hyde
This NASA study indicates space solar power may be on the
horizon if someone like Musk can reduce the costs and
focus on small scale niche markets. Musk might be able
to get the ball rolling given his abilities.


21st Century Trends in Space-Based
Solar Power Generation and Storage

The results indicate that for SSP to be considered a viable
power alternative for niche power markets, such as remote
mining operations, the assumed manufacturing and transportation
costs must decrease by an order of magnitude. However, promise
is shown by using a larger system to feed multiple mines
at the same time.

Former director of the National Space Society, Al Globus reasons
in his 2011 paper Towards an Early Profitable PowerSat, Part II
“If a small, relatively inexpensive, SSP PowerSat for
niche markets can be profitable, then experience will be gained,
more PowerSats will be built, and the launch rate will increase;
all of which will drive down costs and widen the markets in
which SSP can compete.

Eventually, of course, we would like to see very large PowerSats
filling the same role of providing 24/7 power as nuclear, coal,
oil, and natural gas are today. However, there is little likelihood
of getting there in a single step. What we need is a small step
in the right direction.”i The terrestrial solar and wind
power industries provide salient examples of this strategy.

John Mankins refers to such markets as Commercial Premium
Niche Power (C-PNP) markets. These markets “are entirely
dependent on the specifics of the location and situation;
however, they can occur in a wide variety of locations around
the globe.
https://www.nasa.gov/sites/default/files/atoms/files/21st_century_trends_in_space-based_solar_power_generation_and_storage.pdf
--
https://twitter.com/Non_Linear1
Paul S Person
2021-04-21 17:01:11 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Tue, 20 Apr 2021 20:40:47 -0500, Lynn McGuire
Post by Lynn McGuire
"Starlink is a very big deal"
https://caseyhandmer.wordpress.com/2019/11/02/starlink-is-a-very-big-deal/
"One final point is to compare the revenue per Watt of solar power
generated for Starlink. Each satellite’s solar array is about 60 sqm
according to photographs on the website, which means that they generate
an average of around 3kW, or 4.5kWh, over an entire orbit. With a
ballpark estimate of $1000 of revenue per orbit, each satellite is
generating about $220/kWh. This is 10,000 times the wholesale cost of
solar-generated electricity, once again demonstrating that space-based
solar power is a losing proposition. Modulating microwaves with data is
an enormous value-add!"
I wasn't aware that "solar-generated electricity" (presumably, solar
panels mounted on roofs) generated so much power per orbit (around the
Earth).

Perhaps we should inquire as to how long a Starlink orbit takes, and
then figure out how many orbits a satellite will make and the lifetime
of a terrestrial solar panel array producing power at the same rate,
so as to compare apples to apples, rather than apples to oranges.

Nice try, though.
Post by Lynn McGuire
Apparently, SpaceX is starting another business to run next to StarLink,
StarPower. Solar Power satellites to portable microwave receivers. It
will probably melt the snow off your roof too.
Jerry Pournelle would have been so happy.
Indeed.
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."
Lynn McGuire
2021-04-21 20:16:28 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by J. Clarke
On Tue, 20 Apr 2021 20:40:47 -0500, Lynn McGuire
Post by Lynn McGuire
"Starlink is a very big deal"
https://caseyhandmer.wordpress.com/2019/11/02/starlink-is-a-very-big-deal/
"One final point is to compare the revenue per Watt of solar power
generated for Starlink. Each satellite’s solar array is about 60 sqm
according to photographs on the website, which means that they generate
an average of around 3kW, or 4.5kWh, over an entire orbit. With a
ballpark estimate of $1000 of revenue per orbit, each satellite is
generating about $220/kWh. This is 10,000 times the wholesale cost of
solar-generated electricity, once again demonstrating that space-based
solar power is a losing proposition. Modulating microwaves with data is
an enormous value-add!"
I wasn't aware that "solar-generated electricity" (presumably, solar
panels mounted on roofs) generated so much power per orbit (around the
Earth).
Perhaps we should inquire as to how long a Starlink orbit takes, and
then figure out how many orbits a satellite will make and the lifetime
of a terrestrial solar panel array producing power at the same rate,
so as to compare apples to apples, rather than apples to oranges.
Nice try, though.
Post by Lynn McGuire
Apparently, SpaceX is starting another business to run next to StarLink,
StarPower. Solar Power satellites to portable microwave receivers. It
will probably melt the snow off your roof too.
Jerry Pournelle would have been so happy.
Indeed.
The orbit of the Starlink satellites is 90 minutes. They have 3 kW of
solar panels and use half of that. But they are in the shadow of the
Earth for quite some time of that 90 minutes.

Lynn
The Horny Goat
2021-06-28 08:14:34 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Wed, 21 Apr 2021 10:01:11 -0700, Paul S Person
Post by J. Clarke
On Tue, 20 Apr 2021 20:40:47 -0500, Lynn McGuire
Post by Lynn McGuire
"Starlink is a very big deal"
https://caseyhandmer.wordpress.com/2019/11/02/starlink-is-a-very-big-deal/
Apparently, SpaceX is starting another business to run next to StarLink,
StarPower. Solar Power satellites to portable microwave receivers. It
will probably melt the snow off your roof too.
Jerry Pournelle would have been so happy.
Indeed.
Well Pournelle wouldn't have been entirely happy unless the solar
power satellites were fabricated from lunar materials fired by a mass
driver towards earth but overall you're right.
Lynn McGuire
2021-06-28 19:33:20 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by The Horny Goat
On Wed, 21 Apr 2021 10:01:11 -0700, Paul S Person
Post by J. Clarke
On Tue, 20 Apr 2021 20:40:47 -0500, Lynn McGuire
Post by Lynn McGuire
"Starlink is a very big deal"
https://caseyhandmer.wordpress.com/2019/11/02/starlink-is-a-very-big-deal/
Apparently, SpaceX is starting another business to run next to StarLink,
StarPower. Solar Power satellites to portable microwave receivers. It
will probably melt the snow off your roof too.
Jerry Pournelle would have been so happy.
Indeed.
Well Pournelle wouldn't have been entirely happy unless the solar
power satellites were fabricated from lunar materials fired by a mass
driver towards earth but overall you're right.
Phase II. Maybe Phase III.

Lynn
J. Clarke
2021-06-28 21:18:38 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by The Horny Goat
On Wed, 21 Apr 2021 10:01:11 -0700, Paul S Person
Post by J. Clarke
On Tue, 20 Apr 2021 20:40:47 -0500, Lynn McGuire
Post by Lynn McGuire
"Starlink is a very big deal"
https://caseyhandmer.wordpress.com/2019/11/02/starlink-is-a-very-big-deal/
Apparently, SpaceX is starting another business to run next to StarLink,
StarPower. Solar Power satellites to portable microwave receivers. It
will probably melt the snow off your roof too.
Jerry Pournelle would have been so happy.
Indeed.
Well Pournelle wouldn't have been entirely happy unless the solar
power satellites were fabricated from lunar materials fired by a mass
driver towards earth but overall you're right.
Actually the lunar materials were supposed to go to L5 in that scheme.

However the whole concept of powersats constructed from lunar
materials was predicated on a launch cost from Earth (necessary to
create the lunar infrastructure) of $500/lb in 1970s dollars (about
$1500 today). SpaceX is working on getting that down to $50/lb which
may make doing the whole thing using terrestrial materials feasible.
Quadibloc
2021-06-25 21:29:07 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Lynn McGuire
This is 10,000 times the wholesale cost of
solar-generated electricity, once again demonstrating that space-based
solar power is a losing proposition.
This is sort of like arguing that because microprocessors sell for so much money,
nobody will ever quarry sand to sell to the companies that make silicon wafers,
because sand is so much cheaper than microprocessors.

Or that nobody who had a hydroelectric dam would ever sell the electricity
it made, because they could make more money using the electricity to mine
Bitcoin.

The economy does not work that way.

Solar power satellites may not be practical now - because launching them from
Earth is so expensive that they couldn't recoup their costs making electricity.

That's why it was suggested that a lunar mining base, plus L-5 habitats to manufacture
the solar power satellites would make it work. Of course, as that involves even bigger
upfront costs, they will have to make a *lot* of solar power satellites.

John Savard
Paul S Person
2021-06-26 16:53:21 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Fri, 25 Jun 2021 14:29:07 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc
Post by Quadibloc
Post by Lynn McGuire
This is 10,000 times the wholesale cost of
solar-generated electricity, once again demonstrating that space-based
solar power is a losing proposition.
This is sort of like arguing that because microprocessors sell for so much money,
nobody will ever quarry sand to sell to the companies that make silicon wafers,
because sand is so much cheaper than microprocessors.
Or that nobody who had a hydroelectric dam would ever sell the electricity
it made, because they could make more money using the electricity to mine
Bitcoin.
The economy does not work that way.
Solar power satellites may not be practical now - because launching them from
Earth is so expensive that they couldn't recoup their costs making electricity.
That's why it was suggested that a lunar mining base, plus L-5 habitats to manufacture
the solar power satellites would make it work. Of course, as that involves even bigger
upfront costs, they will have to make a *lot* of solar power satellites.
Among, no doubt, other products currently impracticable but suddenly
revealed to be essential by the ability to make them there.
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."
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