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[wfc] I Am Not Starfire by Mariko Tamaki & Yoshi Yoshitani
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James Nicoll
2021-08-20 14:55:46 UTC
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I Am Not Starfire by Mariko Tamaki & Yoshi Yoshitani

https://jamesdavisnicoll.com/review/turn-and-face-the-strange
--
My reviews can be found at http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/
My tor pieces at https://www.tor.com/author/james-davis-nicoll/
My Dreamwidth at https://james-davis-nicoll.dreamwidth.org/
My patreon is at https://www.patreon.com/jamesdnicoll
Quadibloc
2021-08-20 19:53:58 UTC
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Post by James Nicoll
I Am Not Starfire by Mariko Tamaki & Yoshi Yoshitani
https://jamesdavisnicoll.com/review/turn-and-face-the-strange
I had heard of this graphic novel through my YouTube suggestions.

A lot of people have been protesting this comic vehemently.

I can't sympathize with their mentality. Of course one could hardly
imagine a comic book less calculated to appeal to fanboys as
this one, but what's wrong with DC attempting to broaden its
readership by also publishing comics that appeal to other
demographics?

I mean, back when Supergirl was a backup feature to Action
Comics, the story focused on soap-opera style elements such
as romantic encounters instead of just super-heroics; it was
clearly intended to appeal to girls, not just boys.

And I can remember when comics publishers published
superhero comics, science-fiction comics, war comics,
romance comics, western comics, thus attempting to cover
a wide range of interests. (Yes, back when I was a kid, a
standard-sized comic book cost 12 cents.)

John Savard
Magewolf
2021-08-20 21:16:44 UTC
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Post by Quadibloc
Post by James Nicoll
I Am Not Starfire by Mariko Tamaki & Yoshi Yoshitani
https://jamesdavisnicoll.com/review/turn-and-face-the-strange
I had heard of this graphic novel through my YouTube suggestions.
A lot of people have been protesting this comic vehemently.
I can't sympathize with their mentality. Of course one could hardly
imagine a comic book less calculated to appeal to fanboys as this one,
but what's wrong with DC attempting to broaden its readership by also
publishing comics that appeal to other demographics?
I mean, back when Supergirl was a backup feature to Action Comics, the
story focused on soap-opera style elements such as romantic encounters
instead of just super-heroics; it was clearly intended to appeal to
girls, not just boys.
And I can remember when comics publishers published superhero comics,
science-fiction comics, war comics,
romance comics, western comics, thus attempting to cover a wide range of
interests. (Yes, back when I was a kid, a standard-sized comic book cost
12 cents.)
John Savard
Some people are just upset that it exists but most of the protests
started after the first pages were released and people got a look at the
art and story.

And I would have to say that the demographic they are going for seems to
be people who like very uneven artwork(A few pages look good but most of
it a lot of problems) and a by the numbers plot with one of the worst YA
protagonists that I have ever come across. Also a lot of people saw it as
an attack on a fan favorite character(Starfire). The main target for
these things are usually school librarians but this has enough profanity
and other stuff that it that it is never going to get any traction there.

The funniest part for me is watching a lot of the usual suspects claiming
that all the blow-back is because the writer is a woman and ,gasp, a
lesbian never mentioning the fact that the same writer is getting good
response for her work on Batman.
Dorothy J Heydt
2021-08-20 21:14:59 UTC
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Permalink
Post by Quadibloc
Post by James Nicoll
I Am Not Starfire by Mariko Tamaki & Yoshi Yoshitani
https://jamesdavisnicoll.com/review/turn-and-face-the-strange
I had heard of this graphic novel through my YouTube suggestions.
A lot of people have been protesting this comic vehemently.
I can't sympathize with their mentality. Of course one could hardly
imagine a comic book less calculated to appeal to fanboys as
this one, but what's wrong with DC attempting to broaden its
readership by also publishing comics that appeal to other
demographics?
I mean, back when Supergirl was a backup feature to Action
Comics, the story focused on soap-opera style elements such
as romantic encounters instead of just super-heroics; it was
clearly intended to appeal to girls, not just boys.
And I can remember when comics publishers published
superhero comics, science-fiction comics, war comics,
romance comics, western comics, thus attempting to cover
a wide range of interests. (Yes, back when I was a kid, a
standard-sized comic book cost 12 cents.)
When I was a kid, they cost a dime.

"How do US schools handle students they think might be able to
fire bolts of plasma from their hands?"

There's a currently running (for years now) called _PS 238._ It
features a school for children/early teens with superpowers. I
read it for a while, tired of it; but Hal still reads it.

All I remember about it now is an early sequence about a boy with
a potty mouth. One of the faculty puts a technological geas on
him, which arranges that every time he opens his mouth to curse,
he utters an innocent word. If he really gets wound up, he
starts singing Broadway tunes (Rogers and Hammerstein being a
frequent choice).

This is the current page:

https://ps238.nodwick.com/
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/
Robert Carnegie
2021-08-20 22:31:20 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Quadibloc
Post by James Nicoll
I Am Not Starfire by Mariko Tamaki & Yoshi Yoshitani
https://jamesdavisnicoll.com/review/turn-and-face-the-strange
I had heard of this graphic novel through my YouTube suggestions.
A lot of people have been protesting this comic vehemently.
I can't sympathize with their mentality. Of course one could hardly
imagine a comic book less calculated to appeal to fanboys as
this one, but what's wrong with DC attempting to broaden its
readership by also publishing comics that appeal to other
demographics?
I mean, back when Supergirl was a backup feature to Action
Comics, the story focused on soap-opera style elements such
as romantic encounters instead of just super-heroics; it was
clearly intended to appeal to girls, not just boys.
And I can remember when comics publishers published
superhero comics, science-fiction comics, war comics,
romance comics, western comics, thus attempting to cover
a wide range of interests. (Yes, back when I was a kid, a
standard-sized comic book cost 12 cents.)
When I was a kid, they cost a dime.
"How do US schools handle students they think might be able to
fire bolts of plasma from their hands?"
There's a currently running (for years now) called _PS 238._ It
features a school for children/early teens with superpowers. I
read it for a while, tired of it; but Hal still reads it.
All I remember about it now is an early sequence about a boy with
a potty mouth. One of the faculty puts a technological geas on
him, which arranges that every time he opens his mouth to curse,
he utters an innocent word. If he really gets wound up, he
starts singing Broadway tunes (Rogers and Hammerstein being a
frequent choice).
https://ps238.nodwick.com/
It's a long wait for some of these pages, but I subscribed anyway,
I'd been reading it free for years.
<http://ps238.nodwick.com/comic/12162006/> meets the point.
Actually it's page three of one of a series of promotional
story-lets appearing first in... _Nodwick_ comicbooks, I think.
Nodwick is a fantasy-scenario "henchman" for a
party of not entirely moral adventurers: mainly he carries
stuff and tests for traps.
Lynn McGuire
2021-08-21 08:04:26 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Quadibloc
Post by James Nicoll
I Am Not Starfire by Mariko Tamaki & Yoshi Yoshitani
https://jamesdavisnicoll.com/review/turn-and-face-the-strange
I had heard of this graphic novel through my YouTube suggestions.
A lot of people have been protesting this comic vehemently.
I can't sympathize with their mentality. Of course one could hardly
imagine a comic book less calculated to appeal to fanboys as
this one, but what's wrong with DC attempting to broaden its
readership by also publishing comics that appeal to other
demographics?
I mean, back when Supergirl was a backup feature to Action
Comics, the story focused on soap-opera style elements such
as romantic encounters instead of just super-heroics; it was
clearly intended to appeal to girls, not just boys.
And I can remember when comics publishers published
superhero comics, science-fiction comics, war comics,
romance comics, western comics, thus attempting to cover
a wide range of interests. (Yes, back when I was a kid, a
standard-sized comic book cost 12 cents.)
When I was a kid, they cost a dime.
"How do US schools handle students they think might be able to
fire bolts of plasma from their hands?"
There's a currently running (for years now) called _PS 238._ It
features a school for children/early teens with superpowers. I
read it for a while, tired of it; but Hal still reads it.
All I remember about it now is an early sequence about a boy with
a potty mouth. One of the faculty puts a technological geas on
him, which arranges that every time he opens his mouth to curse,
he utters an innocent word. If he really gets wound up, he
starts singing Broadway tunes (Rogers and Hammerstein being a
frequent choice).
https://ps238.nodwick.com/
Oh no. Not another good webcomic. I am reading 12 a day right now.

Lynn
Dorothy J Heydt
2021-08-21 14:57:19 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Quadibloc
Post by James Nicoll
I Am Not Starfire by Mariko Tamaki & Yoshi Yoshitani
https://jamesdavisnicoll.com/review/turn-and-face-the-strange
I had heard of this graphic novel through my YouTube suggestions.
A lot of people have been protesting this comic vehemently.
I can't sympathize with their mentality. Of course one could hardly
imagine a comic book less calculated to appeal to fanboys as
this one, but what's wrong with DC attempting to broaden its
readership by also publishing comics that appeal to other
demographics?
I mean, back when Supergirl was a backup feature to Action
Comics, the story focused on soap-opera style elements such
as romantic encounters instead of just super-heroics; it was
clearly intended to appeal to girls, not just boys.
And I can remember when comics publishers published
superhero comics, science-fiction comics, war comics,
romance comics, western comics, thus attempting to cover
a wide range of interests. (Yes, back when I was a kid, a
standard-sized comic book cost 12 cents.)
When I was a kid, they cost a dime.
"How do US schools handle students they think might be able to
fire bolts of plasma from their hands?"
There's a currently running (for years now) called _PS 238._ It
features a school for children/early teens with superpowers. I
read it for a while, tired of it; but Hal still reads it.
All I remember about it now is an early sequence about a boy with
a potty mouth. One of the faculty puts a technological geas on
him, which arranges that every time he opens his mouth to curse,
he utters an innocent word. If he really gets wound up, he
starts singing Broadway tunes (Rogers and Hammerstein being a
frequent choice).
https://ps238.nodwick.com/
Oh no. Not another good webcomic. I am reading 12 a day right now.
Sorry. Would it help to tell you that I gave it up within a
year?
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/
Lynn McGuire
2021-08-23 18:41:31 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Quadibloc
Post by James Nicoll
I Am Not Starfire by Mariko Tamaki & Yoshi Yoshitani
https://jamesdavisnicoll.com/review/turn-and-face-the-strange
I had heard of this graphic novel through my YouTube suggestions.
A lot of people have been protesting this comic vehemently.
I can't sympathize with their mentality. Of course one could hardly
imagine a comic book less calculated to appeal to fanboys as
this one, but what's wrong with DC attempting to broaden its
readership by also publishing comics that appeal to other
demographics?
I mean, back when Supergirl was a backup feature to Action
Comics, the story focused on soap-opera style elements such
as romantic encounters instead of just super-heroics; it was
clearly intended to appeal to girls, not just boys.
And I can remember when comics publishers published
superhero comics, science-fiction comics, war comics,
romance comics, western comics, thus attempting to cover
a wide range of interests. (Yes, back when I was a kid, a
standard-sized comic book cost 12 cents.)
When I was a kid, they cost a dime.
"How do US schools handle students they think might be able to
fire bolts of plasma from their hands?"
There's a currently running (for years now) called _PS 238._ It
features a school for children/early teens with superpowers. I
read it for a while, tired of it; but Hal still reads it.
All I remember about it now is an early sequence about a boy with
a potty mouth. One of the faculty puts a technological geas on
him, which arranges that every time he opens his mouth to curse,
he utters an innocent word. If he really gets wound up, he
starts singing Broadway tunes (Rogers and Hammerstein being a
frequent choice).
https://ps238.nodwick.com/
Oh no. Not another good webcomic. I am reading 12 a day right now.
Sorry. Would it help to tell you that I gave it up within a
year?
I am already hooked at the beginning. Maybe that means it goes bad over
time ?

Thanks,
Lynn
Robert Carnegie
2021-08-24 00:45:36 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Quadibloc
Post by James Nicoll
I Am Not Starfire by Mariko Tamaki & Yoshi Yoshitani
https://jamesdavisnicoll.com/review/turn-and-face-the-strange
I had heard of this graphic novel through my YouTube suggestions.
A lot of people have been protesting this comic vehemently.
I can't sympathize with their mentality. Of course one could hardly
imagine a comic book less calculated to appeal to fanboys as
this one, but what's wrong with DC attempting to broaden its
readership by also publishing comics that appeal to other
demographics?
I mean, back when Supergirl was a backup feature to Action
Comics, the story focused on soap-opera style elements such
as romantic encounters instead of just super-heroics; it was
clearly intended to appeal to girls, not just boys.
And I can remember when comics publishers published
superhero comics, science-fiction comics, war comics,
romance comics, western comics, thus attempting to cover
a wide range of interests. (Yes, back when I was a kid, a
standard-sized comic book cost 12 cents.)
When I was a kid, they cost a dime.
"How do US schools handle students they think might be able to
fire bolts of plasma from their hands?"
There's a currently running (for years now) called _PS 238._ It
features a school for children/early teens with superpowers. I
read it for a while, tired of it; but Hal still reads it.
All I remember about it now is an early sequence about a boy with
a potty mouth. One of the faculty puts a technological geas on
him, which arranges that every time he opens his mouth to curse,
he utters an innocent word. If he really gets wound up, he
starts singing Broadway tunes (Rogers and Hammerstein being a
frequent choice).
https://ps238.nodwick.com/
Oh no. Not another good webcomic. I am reading 12 a day right now.
Sorry. Would it help to tell you that I gave it up within a
year?
I am already hooked at the beginning. Maybe that means it goes bad over
time ?
In case you read Phil and Kaja Foglio's _Girl Genius_...
the PS238 cast includes members of the Von Fogg family
who are evil geniuses who live on an airship.

For that matter _Girl Genius_ features Tarvek's dad
<https://girlgenius.fandom.com/wiki/Aaronev_Wilhelm_Sturmvoraus#Possibly_Relevant_Outside_Information>
- rather briefly, so far.
Lynn McGuire
2021-08-24 01:06:38 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Quadibloc
Post by James Nicoll
I Am Not Starfire by Mariko Tamaki & Yoshi Yoshitani
https://jamesdavisnicoll.com/review/turn-and-face-the-strange
I had heard of this graphic novel through my YouTube suggestions.
A lot of people have been protesting this comic vehemently.
I can't sympathize with their mentality. Of course one could hardly
imagine a comic book less calculated to appeal to fanboys as
this one, but what's wrong with DC attempting to broaden its
readership by also publishing comics that appeal to other
demographics?
I mean, back when Supergirl was a backup feature to Action
Comics, the story focused on soap-opera style elements such
as romantic encounters instead of just super-heroics; it was
clearly intended to appeal to girls, not just boys.
And I can remember when comics publishers published
superhero comics, science-fiction comics, war comics,
romance comics, western comics, thus attempting to cover
a wide range of interests. (Yes, back when I was a kid, a
standard-sized comic book cost 12 cents.)
When I was a kid, they cost a dime.
"How do US schools handle students they think might be able to
fire bolts of plasma from their hands?"
There's a currently running (for years now) called _PS 238._ It
features a school for children/early teens with superpowers. I
read it for a while, tired of it; but Hal still reads it.
All I remember about it now is an early sequence about a boy with
a potty mouth. One of the faculty puts a technological geas on
him, which arranges that every time he opens his mouth to curse,
he utters an innocent word. If he really gets wound up, he
starts singing Broadway tunes (Rogers and Hammerstein being a
frequent choice).
https://ps238.nodwick.com/
Oh no. Not another good webcomic. I am reading 12 a day right now.
Sorry. Would it help to tell you that I gave it up within a
year?
I am already hooked at the beginning. Maybe that means it goes bad over
time ?
In case you read Phil and Kaja Foglio's _Girl Genius_...
the PS238 cast includes members of the Von Fogg family
who are evil geniuses who live on an airship.
For that matter _Girl Genius_ features Tarvek's dad
<https://girlgenius.fandom.com/wiki/Aaronev_Wilhelm_Sturmvoraus#Possibly_Relevant_Outside_Information>
- rather briefly, so far.
I have never gotten into Girl Genius, thank goodness.

Lynn
J. Clarke
2021-08-24 02:22:38 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Mon, 23 Aug 2021 20:06:38 -0500, Lynn McGuire
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Quadibloc
Post by James Nicoll
I Am Not Starfire by Mariko Tamaki & Yoshi Yoshitani
https://jamesdavisnicoll.com/review/turn-and-face-the-strange
I had heard of this graphic novel through my YouTube suggestions.
A lot of people have been protesting this comic vehemently.
I can't sympathize with their mentality. Of course one could hardly
imagine a comic book less calculated to appeal to fanboys as
this one, but what's wrong with DC attempting to broaden its
readership by also publishing comics that appeal to other
demographics?
I mean, back when Supergirl was a backup feature to Action
Comics, the story focused on soap-opera style elements such
as romantic encounters instead of just super-heroics; it was
clearly intended to appeal to girls, not just boys.
And I can remember when comics publishers published
superhero comics, science-fiction comics, war comics,
romance comics, western comics, thus attempting to cover
a wide range of interests. (Yes, back when I was a kid, a
standard-sized comic book cost 12 cents.)
When I was a kid, they cost a dime.
"How do US schools handle students they think might be able to
fire bolts of plasma from their hands?"
There's a currently running (for years now) called _PS 238._ It
features a school for children/early teens with superpowers. I
read it for a while, tired of it; but Hal still reads it.
All I remember about it now is an early sequence about a boy with
a potty mouth. One of the faculty puts a technological geas on
him, which arranges that every time he opens his mouth to curse,
he utters an innocent word. If he really gets wound up, he
starts singing Broadway tunes (Rogers and Hammerstein being a
frequent choice).
https://ps238.nodwick.com/
Oh no. Not another good webcomic. I am reading 12 a day right now.
Sorry. Would it help to tell you that I gave it up within a
year?
I am already hooked at the beginning. Maybe that means it goes bad over
time ?
In case you read Phil and Kaja Foglio's _Girl Genius_...
the PS238 cast includes members of the Von Fogg family
who are evil geniuses who live on an airship.
For that matter _Girl Genius_ features Tarvek's dad
<https://girlgenius.fandom.com/wiki/Aaronev_Wilhelm_Sturmvoraus#Possibly_Relevant_Outside_Information>
- rather briefly, so far.
I have never gotten into Girl Genius, thank goodness.
You should. We haven't gotten the details of the apocalypse that
created that world, but there's clear evidence that there was
one--England is underwater. It's just that it was a steampunk
apocalypse, not a modern one.
Lynn McGuire
2021-08-24 02:31:37 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by J. Clarke
On Mon, 23 Aug 2021 20:06:38 -0500, Lynn McGuire
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Quadibloc
Post by James Nicoll
I Am Not Starfire by Mariko Tamaki & Yoshi Yoshitani
https://jamesdavisnicoll.com/review/turn-and-face-the-strange
I had heard of this graphic novel through my YouTube suggestions.
A lot of people have been protesting this comic vehemently.
I can't sympathize with their mentality. Of course one could hardly
imagine a comic book less calculated to appeal to fanboys as
this one, but what's wrong with DC attempting to broaden its
readership by also publishing comics that appeal to other
demographics?
I mean, back when Supergirl was a backup feature to Action
Comics, the story focused on soap-opera style elements such
as romantic encounters instead of just super-heroics; it was
clearly intended to appeal to girls, not just boys.
And I can remember when comics publishers published
superhero comics, science-fiction comics, war comics,
romance comics, western comics, thus attempting to cover
a wide range of interests. (Yes, back when I was a kid, a
standard-sized comic book cost 12 cents.)
When I was a kid, they cost a dime.
"How do US schools handle students they think might be able to
fire bolts of plasma from their hands?"
There's a currently running (for years now) called _PS 238._ It
features a school for children/early teens with superpowers. I
read it for a while, tired of it; but Hal still reads it.
All I remember about it now is an early sequence about a boy with
a potty mouth. One of the faculty puts a technological geas on
him, which arranges that every time he opens his mouth to curse,
he utters an innocent word. If he really gets wound up, he
starts singing Broadway tunes (Rogers and Hammerstein being a
frequent choice).
https://ps238.nodwick.com/
Oh no. Not another good webcomic. I am reading 12 a day right now.
Sorry. Would it help to tell you that I gave it up within a
year?
I am already hooked at the beginning. Maybe that means it goes bad over
time ?
In case you read Phil and Kaja Foglio's _Girl Genius_...
the PS238 cast includes members of the Von Fogg family
who are evil geniuses who live on an airship.
For that matter _Girl Genius_ features Tarvek's dad
<https://girlgenius.fandom.com/wiki/Aaronev_Wilhelm_Sturmvoraus#Possibly_Relevant_Outside_Information>
- rather briefly, so far.
I have never gotten into Girl Genius, thank goodness.
You should. We haven't gotten the details of the apocalypse that
created that world, but there's clear evidence that there was
one--England is underwater. It's just that it was a steampunk
apocalypse, not a modern one.
I hate steampunk.

Lynn
pete...@gmail.com
2021-08-24 03:39:51 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by J. Clarke
On Mon, 23 Aug 2021 20:06:38 -0500, Lynn McGuire
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Quadibloc
Post by James Nicoll
I Am Not Starfire by Mariko Tamaki & Yoshi Yoshitani
https://jamesdavisnicoll.com/review/turn-and-face-the-strange
I had heard of this graphic novel through my YouTube suggestions.
A lot of people have been protesting this comic vehemently.
I can't sympathize with their mentality. Of course one could hardly
imagine a comic book less calculated to appeal to fanboys as
this one, but what's wrong with DC attempting to broaden its
readership by also publishing comics that appeal to other
demographics?
I mean, back when Supergirl was a backup feature to Action
Comics, the story focused on soap-opera style elements such
as romantic encounters instead of just super-heroics; it was
clearly intended to appeal to girls, not just boys.
And I can remember when comics publishers published
superhero comics, science-fiction comics, war comics,
romance comics, western comics, thus attempting to cover
a wide range of interests. (Yes, back when I was a kid, a
standard-sized comic book cost 12 cents.)
When I was a kid, they cost a dime.
"How do US schools handle students they think might be able to
fire bolts of plasma from their hands?"
There's a currently running (for years now) called _PS 238._ It
features a school for children/early teens with superpowers. I
read it for a while, tired of it; but Hal still reads it.
All I remember about it now is an early sequence about a boy with
a potty mouth. One of the faculty puts a technological geas on
him, which arranges that every time he opens his mouth to curse,
he utters an innocent word. If he really gets wound up, he
starts singing Broadway tunes (Rogers and Hammerstein being a
frequent choice).
https://ps238.nodwick.com/
Oh no. Not another good webcomic. I am reading 12 a day right now.
Sorry. Would it help to tell you that I gave it up within a
year?
I am already hooked at the beginning. Maybe that means it goes bad over
time ?
In case you read Phil and Kaja Foglio's _Girl Genius_...
the PS238 cast includes members of the Von Fogg family
who are evil geniuses who live on an airship.
For that matter _Girl Genius_ features Tarvek's dad
<https://girlgenius.fandom.com/wiki/Aaronev_Wilhelm_Sturmvoraus#Possibly_Relevant_Outside_Information>
- rather briefly, so far.
I have never gotten into Girl Genius, thank goodness.
You should. We haven't gotten the details of the apocalypse that
created that world, but there's clear evidence that there was
one--England is underwater. It's just that it was a steampunk
apocalypse, not a modern one.
I hate steampunk.
Generally speaking, I dislike it. It treats technology in a cargo-cult
like manner, with unexplained, non functional cogs attached to
everything.

Girl Genius I make an exception for. It's fun.

Pt
Quadibloc
2021-08-27 02:36:25 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by ***@gmail.com
Girl Genius I make an exception for. It's fun.
I don't think I read any other steampunk besides Girl Genius.

Or any horror besides Lovecraft, or any mysteries besides Sherlock Holmes.

Some works are good enough to transcend genre preferences. I'm not much
of a fan of mil-sf either, but I followed the Honor Harrington series - but then,
I also followed a few other series with female protagonists of a vaguely
similar type, the Kyra Vallata series and the Kris Longknife series. Partly because
I found it hard to find "real" sf I liked to read at the time...

John Savard
J. Clarke
2021-08-27 02:52:29 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Thu, 26 Aug 2021 19:36:25 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc
Post by Quadibloc
Post by ***@gmail.com
Girl Genius I make an exception for. It's fun.
I don't think I read any other steampunk besides Girl Genius.
Or any horror besides Lovecraft, or any mysteries besides Sherlock Holmes.
Some works are good enough to transcend genre preferences. I'm not much
of a fan of mil-sf either, but I followed the Honor Harrington series - but then,
I also followed a few other series with female protagonists of a vaguely
similar type, the Kyra Vallata series and the Kris Longknife series. Partly because
I found it hard to find "real" sf I liked to read at the time...
Moon's mil-SF has the benefit that she has actual experience.
Quadibloc
2021-08-27 02:38:21 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
All I remember about it now is an early sequence about a boy with
a potty mouth. One of the faculty puts a technological geas on
him, which arranges that every time he opens his mouth to curse,
he utters an innocent word.
I took a look at the comic. That character is still around. It turns out
that this is the least of his personality flaws, though; he is an evil
genius bent on world conquest.

John Savard
Robert Carnegie
2021-08-27 15:07:46 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Quadibloc
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
All I remember about it now is an early sequence about a boy with
a potty mouth. One of the faculty puts a technological geas on
him, which arranges that every time he opens his mouth to curse,
he utters an innocent word.
I took a look at the comic. That character is still around. It turns out
that this is the least of his personality flaws, though; he is an evil
genius bent on world conquest.
I like to think that he means well. He looks after
his parents...
Ted Nolan <tednolan>
2021-08-27 15:13:08 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by Quadibloc
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
All I remember about it now is an early sequence about a boy with
a potty mouth. One of the faculty puts a technological geas on
him, which arranges that every time he opens his mouth to curse,
he utters an innocent word.
I took a look at the comic. That character is still around. It turns out
that this is the least of his personality flaws, though; he is an evil
genius bent on world conquest.
I like to think that he means well. He looks after
his parents...
That description reminds me out the Southpark movie, and Cartman's
affliction/super-power.
--
columbiaclosings.com
What's not in Columbia anymore..
Quadibloc
2021-09-26 18:09:21 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Quadibloc
(Yes, back when I was a kid, a
standard-sized comic book cost 12 cents.)
When I was a kid, they cost a dime.
Although apparently you _are_ a bit older than I am, this is by itself
not necessarily evidence of that. For a time, at least, comic books
were 10 cents in the U.S., and 12 cents in Canada. (Since then,
the disparity in the value of the currency has increased somewhat.)

This reminds me of a sentence in Philip Wylie's book "Generation of
Vipers":

"Its value was recently decreased from one hundred cents to fifty-nine
cents."

Of course, he is referring to what happened in 1933, when instead
of a troy ounce of gold being equivalent to $20.67, it changed to $35.

And indeed, it was the value of the dollar, and not that of gold, which
changed.

But since the cent was debased as much as the dollar, one would
still have the dollar as equal to one hundred cents in making change.
There's nothing about the phrasing of that sentence, though, that
makes that an issue; perhaps later on he says something about teachers
still teaching children there are a hundred cents in the dollar, and that's
what I'm remembering, but I couldn't find it.

But back to comics.

Over in rec.arts.comics.dc.universe, I have made a post which so far
has had no replies. An idea for a comic book which no doubt _some_
people would hate even more than "I Am Not Starfire".

Superman comes to Earth as an infant sometime in the closing years
of World War I, to fit in with the Silver Age time frame.

But real-world issues are confronted head-on, instead of glossed over
so that Superman could live in a world that resembles ours.

Superboy...

overthrows Stalin. That, at least, is not terribly controversial.

World War II never happens. Whether that's because Hitler decides to
remain obscure in a world with Superboy in it, or the Kristallnacht gets
interrupted by the overthrow of the Nazis... is a detail I won't go into.

Also, while publicly stopping crooks and confronting natural disasters
and invading aliens, secretly behind the scenes he is helping black
people who are victimized by segregation.

Pa Kent figures this out, and has a heart-to-heart talk with Clark.

What can Superboy do? He can't just turn his back and walk away...
and he can't fight a one-man war with the human race.

Is there another way?

Well, if you can move Heaven and Earth, there is.

So he pushes Venus into the L5 point of the Earth-Sun system,
terraforms it or creates some human habitat space on it...

John Savard
Kevrob
2021-09-27 05:31:42 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Quadibloc
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Quadibloc
(Yes, back when I was a kid, a
standard-sized comic book cost 12 cents.)
When I was a kid, they cost a dime.
Although apparently you _are_ a bit older than I am, this is by itself
not necessarily evidence of that. For a time, at least, comic books
were 10 cents in the U.S., and 12 cents in Canada. (Since then,
the disparity in the value of the currency has increased somewhat.)
This reminds me of a sentence in Philip Wylie's book "Generation of
"Its value was recently decreased from one hundred cents to fifty-nine
cents."
Of course, he is referring to what happened in 1933, when instead
of a troy ounce of gold being equivalent to $20.67, it changed to $35.
And indeed, it was the value of the dollar, and not that of gold, which
changed.
But since the cent was debased as much as the dollar, one would
still have the dollar as equal to one hundred cents in making change.
There's nothing about the phrasing of that sentence, though, that
makes that an issue; perhaps later on he says something about teachers
still teaching children there are a hundred cents in the dollar, and that's
what I'm remembering, but I couldn't find it.
But back to comics.
Over in rec.arts.comics.dc.universe, I have made a post which so far
has had no replies. An idea for a comic book which no doubt _some_
people would hate even more than "I Am Not Starfire".
Superman comes to Earth as an infant sometime in the closing years
of World War I, to fit in with the Silver Age time frame.
In the original continuity, Kal-L arrives 20-25 years prior to 1938. He may have been
a toddler on the Kent farm when the Armistice was.

Siegel meant the Superboy feature to be one filled with lighthearted pranks and
other boyish fun.
--
Kevin R
Quadibloc
2021-09-27 05:47:46 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Kevrob
Siegel meant the Superboy feature to be one filled with lighthearted pranks and
other boyish fun.
True enough. But as comic books developed over time, the fan base
developed certain expectations... specifically, in this context:

Absolute continuity - no contradictions from one issue to another, just as
if one was reading an account of things that had *really happened*.

And so readers who take their comics with deadly seriousness... will find it
odd that Superman - even as an adolescent - wouldn't react to things known
to exist in the real world, and which would appear to also exist in his world...
the way one would expect an ethical and compassionate individual to react.

John Savard
Quadibloc
2021-09-27 05:56:03 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Quadibloc
Post by Kevrob
Siegel meant the Superboy feature to be one filled with lighthearted pranks and
other boyish fun.
True enough. But as comic books developed over time, the fan base
Absolute continuity - no contradictions from one issue to another, just as
if one was reading an account of things that had *really happened*.
And so readers who take their comics with deadly seriousness... will find it
odd that Superman - even as an adolescent - wouldn't react to things known
to exist in the real world, and which would appear to also exist in his world...
the way one would expect an ethical and compassionate individual to react.
On the other hand...

while I think that ignoring serious issues that exist in the real world is...
a defect... in a comic book, there definitely are worse things than the innocence
of old-fashioned comic books.

So my idea of what a "real" Superboy would do... was, in a way, simple. He saw
an issue, he dealt with it, despite a potential personal cost of straining his relations
with his parents.

A simple, basic story.

Not some horrible cop-out done to appear "with it", and yet somehow either
leave wiggle room in which one can also join Trump in seeing "good people
on both sides", or venture into the preachy instead of the entertaining.

Denny O'Neil, Green Lantern and Green Arrow, I'm looking at you.

John Savard
Robert Carnegie
2021-09-27 15:07:28 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Quadibloc
Post by Kevrob
Siegel meant the Superboy feature to be one filled with lighthearted pranks and
other boyish fun.
True enough. But as comic books developed over time, the fan base
Absolute continuity - no contradictions from one issue to another, just as
if one was reading an account of things that had *really happened*.
And so readers who take their comics with deadly seriousness... will find it
odd that Superman - even as an adolescent - wouldn't react to things known
to exist in the real world, and which would appear to also exist in his world...
the way one would expect an ethical and compassionate individual to react.
...if they were Superman.

As I understand it, Superman's "Man of Tomorrow"
slogan refers to him representing the potential of
human development: a possible future in which
everyone is like him.

Yes yes:
https://mjcarty.com/2014/07/08/monty-pythons-bicycle-repairman-sketch-it-was-45/
Kevrob
2021-09-27 17:30:49 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by Quadibloc
Post by Kevrob
Siegel meant the Superboy feature to be one filled with lighthearted pranks and
other boyish fun.
True enough. But as comic books developed over time, the fan base
Absolute continuity - no contradictions from one issue to another, just as
if one was reading an account of things that had *really happened*.
And so readers who take their comics with deadly seriousness... will find it
odd that Superman - even as an adolescent - wouldn't react to things known
to exist in the real world, and which would appear to also exist in his world...
the way one would expect an ethical and compassionate individual to react.
...if they were Superman.
As I understand it, Superman's "Man of Tomorrow"
slogan refers to him representing the potential of
human development: a possible future in which
everyone is like him.
https://mjcarty.com/2014/07/08/monty-pythons-bicycle-repairman-sketch-it-was-45/
An alternate origin for Supes Siegel had prior to 1938 was his being a time traveller
from Earth's distant future. This would have made him more like Lin Carter's Prince
Zarkron or Kurt Busiek's Samaritan.
--
Kevin R
Michael F. Stemper
2021-09-27 18:05:15 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Kevrob
Post by Robert Carnegie
As I understand it, Superman's "Man of Tomorrow"
slogan refers to him representing the potential of
human development: a possible future in which
everyone is like him.
https://mjcarty.com/2014/07/08/monty-pythons-bicycle-repairman-sketch-it-was-45/
An alternate origin for Supes Siegel had prior to 1938 was his being a time traveller
from Earth's distant future. This would have made him more like Lin Carter's Prince
Zarkron or Kurt Busiek's Samaritan.
That idea reminds me of something that I remember from my comic book
days in the mid-1960s. I seem to recall a big reveal in _Fantastic
Four_ that Doctor Doom was also an Egyptian pharaoh and some guy from
the fiftieth century--both of whom the FF had also fought.

Was there such a comic, and if so, who were the pharaoh and the
future guy? (Wikipedia doesn't mention this, so maybe it wasn't
canon.)
--
Michael F. Stemper
Isaiah 58:6-7
James Nicoll
2021-09-27 18:39:37 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Kevrob
Post by Kevrob
Post by Robert Carnegie
As I understand it, Superman's "Man of Tomorrow"
slogan refers to him representing the potential of
human development: a possible future in which
everyone is like him.
https://mjcarty.com/2014/07/08/monty-pythons-bicycle-repairman-sketch-it-was-45/
An alternate origin for Supes Siegel had prior to 1938 was his being a time
traveller
Post by Kevrob
from Earth's distant future. This would have made him more like Lin Carter's Prince
Zarkron or Kurt Busiek's Samaritan.
That idea reminds me of something that I remember from my comic book
days in the mid-1960s. I seem to recall a big reveal in _Fantastic
Four_ that Doctor Doom was also an Egyptian pharaoh and some guy from
the fiftieth century--both of whom the FF had also fought.
Was there such a comic, and if so, who were the pharaoh and the
future guy? (Wikipedia doesn't mention this, so maybe it wasn't
canon.)
That was Kang the Conquer, who at other stages of his life is/was/will be
Iron Lad, Immortus, and Rama-Tut.
--
My reviews can be found at http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/
My tor pieces at https://www.tor.com/author/james-davis-nicoll/
My Dreamwidth at https://james-davis-nicoll.dreamwidth.org/
My patreon is at https://www.patreon.com/jamesdnicoll
Michael F. Stemper
2021-09-27 19:01:15 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by James Nicoll
Post by Kevrob
Post by Kevrob
An alternate origin for Supes Siegel had prior to 1938 was his being a time
traveller
Post by Kevrob
from Earth's distant future. This would have made him more like Lin Carter's Prince
Zarkron or Kurt Busiek's Samaritan.
That idea reminds me of something that I remember from my comic book
days in the mid-1960s. I seem to recall a big reveal in _Fantastic
Four_ that Doctor Doom was also an Egyptian pharaoh and some guy from
the fiftieth century--both of whom the FF had also fought.
Was there such a comic, and if so, who were the pharaoh and the
future guy? (Wikipedia doesn't mention this, so maybe it wasn't
canon.)
That was Kang the Conquer, who at other stages of his life is/was/will be
Iron Lad, Immortus, and Rama-Tut.
Thanks. It seems, however, that my memory was not quite right, as Doom
isn't mentioned as one of Kang's alter egos. But the Kang/Rama-Tut
connection shows that this is what I had in mind.
--
Michael F. Stemper
There's no "me" in "team". There's no "us" in "team", either.
James Nicoll
2021-09-27 19:18:47 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Kevrob
Post by James Nicoll
Post by Kevrob
Post by Kevrob
An alternate origin for Supes Siegel had prior to 1938 was his being a time
traveller
Post by Kevrob
from Earth's distant future. This would have made him more like Lin
Carter's Prince
Post by James Nicoll
Post by Kevrob
Post by Kevrob
Zarkron or Kurt Busiek's Samaritan.
That idea reminds me of something that I remember from my comic book
days in the mid-1960s. I seem to recall a big reveal in _Fantastic
Four_ that Doctor Doom was also an Egyptian pharaoh and some guy from
the fiftieth century--both of whom the FF had also fought.
Was there such a comic, and if so, who were the pharaoh and the
future guy? (Wikipedia doesn't mention this, so maybe it wasn't
canon.)
That was Kang the Conquer, who at other stages of his life is/was/will be
Iron Lad, Immortus, and Rama-Tut.
Thanks. It seems, however, that my memory was not quite right, as Doom
isn't mentioned as one of Kang's alter egos. But the Kang/Rama-Tut
connection shows that this is what I had in mind.
Doom also time travels and I think Kang has used Doom's time machines.
Also, just because Kang is not known to have been Doom does not mean he
was not Doom at some as yet undiclosed time.
--
My reviews can be found at http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/
My tor pieces at https://www.tor.com/author/james-davis-nicoll/
My Dreamwidth at https://james-davis-nicoll.dreamwidth.org/
My patreon is at https://www.patreon.com/jamesdnicoll
Quadibloc
2021-09-27 19:25:57 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by James Nicoll
Post by Michael F. Stemper
Post by James Nicoll
Post by Michael F. Stemper
That idea reminds me of something that I remember from my comic book
days in the mid-1960s. I seem to recall a big reveal in _Fantastic
Four_ that Doctor Doom was also an Egyptian pharaoh and some guy from
the fiftieth century--both of whom the FF had also fought.
Was there such a comic, and if so, who were the pharaoh and the
future guy? (Wikipedia doesn't mention this, so maybe it wasn't
canon.)
That was Kang the Conquer, who at other stages of his life is/was/will be
Iron Lad, Immortus, and Rama-Tut.
Thanks. It seems, however, that my memory was not quite right, as Doom
isn't mentioned as one of Kang's alter egos. But the Kang/Rama-Tut
connection shows that this is what I had in mind.
Doom also time travels and I think Kang has used Doom's time machines.
Also, just because Kang is not known to have been Doom does not mean he
was not Doom at some as yet undiclosed time.
In Rama-Tut's first appearance, in Fantastic Four 19, it was speculated that
Rama-Tut might be Doctor Doom, since he was using a time machine apparently
based on that of Doctor Doom.

Currently, however, he is Nathaniel Richards, a distant descendant of Reed Richards'
father.

I remember reading the story from FF 19 in an unusual place... a reprint comic
that was a trade premium which included stories from more than one comic book
company - there was also a Casper the Friendly Ghost story in it, from Harvey
comics.

John Savard
Quadibloc
2021-09-27 19:29:05 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Quadibloc
I remember reading the story from FF 19 in an unusual place... a reprint comic
that was a trade premium which included stories from more than one comic book
company - there was also a Casper the Friendly Ghost story in it, from Harvey
comics.
Found it:

https://marvel.fandom.com/wiki/America%27s_Best_TV_Comics_Vol_1_1

America's Best TV Comics

John Savard
Kevrob
2021-09-28 07:03:31 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by James Nicoll
Post by Kevrob
Post by James Nicoll
Post by Kevrob
Post by Kevrob
An alternate origin for Supes Siegel had prior to 1938 was his being a time
traveller
Post by Kevrob
from Earth's distant future. This would have made him more like Lin
Carter's Prince
Post by James Nicoll
Post by Kevrob
Post by Kevrob
Zarkron or Kurt Busiek's Samaritan.
That idea reminds me of something that I remember from my comic book
days in the mid-1960s. I seem to recall a big reveal in _Fantastic
Four_ that Doctor Doom was also an Egyptian pharaoh and some guy from
the fiftieth century--both of whom the FF had also fought.
Was there such a comic, and if so, who were the pharaoh and the
future guy? (Wikipedia doesn't mention this, so maybe it wasn't
canon.)
That was Kang the Conquer, who at other stages of his life is/was/will be
Iron Lad, Immortus, and Rama-Tut.
Thanks. It seems, however, that my memory was not quite right, as Doom
isn't mentioned as one of Kang's alter egos. But the Kang/Rama-Tut
connection shows that this is what I had in mind.
Doom also time travels and I think Kang has used Doom's time machines.
Also, just because Kang is not known to have been Doom does not mean he
was not Doom at some as yet undiclosed time.
--
T he comics fanzine, OMNIVERSE, edited by the late Mark
Gruenwald, chewed this over BITD.

https://www.scribd.com/document/149809344/The-Lives-and-Times-of-Doctor-Doom

Mark sent on to write and edit for Marvel.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_Gruenwald
--
Kevin R
Robert Carnegie
2021-09-27 19:48:47 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Michael F. Stemper
Post by James Nicoll
Post by Kevrob
Post by Kevrob
An alternate origin for Supes Siegel had prior to 1938 was his being a time
traveller
Post by Kevrob
from Earth's distant future. This would have made him more like Lin Carter's Prince
Zarkron or Kurt Busiek's Samaritan.
That idea reminds me of something that I remember from my comic book
days in the mid-1960s. I seem to recall a big reveal in _Fantastic
Four_ that Doctor Doom was also an Egyptian pharaoh and some guy from
the fiftieth century--both of whom the FF had also fought.
Was there such a comic, and if so, who were the pharaoh and the
future guy? (Wikipedia doesn't mention this, so maybe it wasn't
canon.)
That was Kang the Conquer, who at other stages of his life is/was/will be
Iron Lad, Immortus, and Rama-Tut.
Thanks. It seems, however, that my memory was not quite right, as Doom
isn't mentioned as one of Kang's alter egos. But the Kang/Rama-Tut
connection shows that this is what I had in mind.
I think that the _Avengers Forever_ series has
one or other of Kang-Tut and Doom tricking the
other one into believing that one of them is either
the future self of the other, or their multi generation
descendant, so they shouldn't fight.

But if so, I don't know if this scene - in Kang's diary -
was invented for this story. Some things were, such
as inserting Space Phantom duplicates into various
contradictory events in Avengers history.
Quadibloc
2021-09-27 23:11:10 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Robert Carnegie
I think that the _Avengers Forever_ series has
one or other of Kang-Tut and Doom tricking the
other one into believing that one of them is either
the future self of the other, or their multi generation
descendant, so they shouldn't fight.
I found the first encounter between Doom and one of
these others - it was Rama-Tut rather than Kang - where
the possibility that they were the same man was first
floated.

It was in the Fantastic Four Annual #2.

John Savard
Quadibloc
2021-09-27 23:53:13 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Quadibloc
Post by Robert Carnegie
I think that the _Avengers Forever_ series has
one or other of Kang-Tut and Doom tricking the
other one into believing that one of them is either
the future self of the other, or their multi generation
descendant, so they shouldn't fight.
I found the first encounter between Doom and one of
these others - it was Rama-Tut rather than Kang - where
the possibility that they were the same man was first
floated.
It was in the Fantastic Four Annual #2.
While Fantastic Four Annual #2 just floats the possibility
that Doom and Rama-Tut might be one and the same, the
first appearance of Kang the Conqueror, in Avengers #8,
makes it explicit that Kang the Conqueror is just Rama-Tut
wearing a new outfit.

John Savard
Quadibloc
2021-09-27 17:56:12 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by Quadibloc
And so readers who take their comics with deadly seriousness... will find it
odd that Superman - even as an adolescent - wouldn't react to things known
to exist in the real world, and which would appear to also exist in his world...
the way one would expect an ethical and compassionate individual to react.
...if they were Superman.
Pushing planets around to solve problems takes super powers.

Being shocked at the situation of black people in the 20s and 30s, not so
much.

And in our timeline, need I remind people that one of the first things
Superman did in the comics was prevent a lynching? Of course, the
intended victim was Irish, not black...

and in an odd coincidence, another individual of the same name appeared
in an issue of Superman comics... which appeared after his untimely death.

John Savard
Michael F. Stemper
2021-09-27 13:25:40 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Quadibloc
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Quadibloc
(Yes, back when I was a kid, a
standard-sized comic book cost 12 cents.)
When I was a kid, they cost a dime.
When I began reading comics, they'd just recently gone from 10c to 12c.
Post by Quadibloc
"Its value was recently decreased from one hundred cents to fifty-nine
cents."
Of course, he is referring to what happened in 1933, when instead
of a troy ounce of gold being equivalent to $20.67, it changed to $35.
And indeed, it was the value of the dollar, and not that of gold, which
changed.
But since the cent was debased as much as the dollar, one would
still have the dollar as equal to one hundred cents in making change.
In _Animal Crackers_, Captain Spaulding has a chat with Roscoe W.
Chandler, in which he posits that what the country needs is a seven-cent
nickel, soon to upgrade to an eight-cent nickel.

Once that happens, you could go to the newsstand and use your eight-cent
nickel to buy a paper. Apparently the going rate for a daily paper was
three cents, so you could get the same nickel back as change.

"Properly handled, this same nickel could buy you a paper every day for
the rest of your life." (paraphrase)
Post by Quadibloc
Over in rec.arts.comics.dc.universe, I have made a post which so far
has had no replies. An idea for a comic book which no doubt _some_
people would hate even more than "I Am Not Starfire".
Superman comes to Earth as an infant sometime in the closing years
of World War I, to fit in with the Silver Age time frame.
But real-world issues are confronted head-on, instead of glossed over
so that Superman could live in a world that resembles ours.
Superboy...
overthrows Stalin. That, at least, is not terribly controversial.
World War II never happens. Whether that's because Hitler decides to
remain obscure in a world with Superboy in it, or the Kristallnacht gets
interrupted by the overthrow of the Nazis... is a detail I won't go into.
Also, while publicly stopping crooks and confronting natural disasters
and invading aliens, secretly behind the scenes he is helping black
people who are victimized by segregation.
Pa Kent figures this out, and has a heart-to-heart talk with Clark.
What can Superboy do? He can't just turn his back and walk away...
and he can't fight a one-man war with the human race.
Is there another way?
Well, if you can move Heaven and Earth, there is.
So he pushes Venus into the L5 point of the Earth-Sun system,
terraforms it or creates some human habitat space on it...
Superboy's secret identity is Alexander Abian? Cool!
--
Michael F. Stemper
What happens if you play John Cage's "4'33" at a slower tempo?
Ted Nolan <tednolan>
2021-09-27 13:30:28 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Michael F. Stemper
Post by Quadibloc
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Quadibloc
(Yes, back when I was a kid, a
standard-sized comic book cost 12 cents.)
When I was a kid, they cost a dime.
When I began reading comics, they'd just recently gone from 10c to 12c.
Post by Quadibloc
"Its value was recently decreased from one hundred cents to fifty-nine
cents."
Of course, he is referring to what happened in 1933, when instead
of a troy ounce of gold being equivalent to $20.67, it changed to $35.
And indeed, it was the value of the dollar, and not that of gold, which
changed.
But since the cent was debased as much as the dollar, one would
still have the dollar as equal to one hundred cents in making change.
In _Animal Crackers_, Captain Spaulding has a chat with Roscoe W.
Chandler, in which he posits that what the country needs is a seven-cent
nickel, soon to upgrade to an eight-cent nickel.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fixed_price_of_Coca-Cola_from_1886_to_1959

The Coca-Cola Company sought ways to increase the five cent
price, even approaching the U.S. Treasury Department in
1953 to ask that they mint a 7.5 cent coin. The Treasury
was unsympathetic. In another attempt, The Coca-Cola Company
briefly implemented a strategy where one in every nine
vending machine bottles was empty.[1] The empty bottle was
called an "official blank".[2] This meant that, while most
nickels inserted in a vending machine would yield cold
drinks, one in nine patrons would have to insert two nickels
in order to get a bottle. This effectively raised the price
to 5.625 cents.[1] Coca-Cola never implemented this strategy
on a national scale.
--
columbiaclosings.com
What's not in Columbia anymore..
Quadibloc
2021-09-27 17:50:29 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Michael F. Stemper
Post by Quadibloc
So he pushes Venus into the L5 point of the Earth-Sun system,
terraforms it or creates some human habitat space on it...
Superboy's secret identity is Alexander Abian? Cool!
Oh, no. 'Way off at the L5 point, it shouldn't disturb the Earth's orbit - except
perhaps to make it more stable. The tilt of its axis would be left alone.

The idea being - how to find a place to move, say, a black community that
was the target of an attempted massacre? Or, in general, a homeland for
the oppressed that wouldn't have to be stolen from someone else.

Venus... is the right size, and it's handy.

John Savard
pete...@gmail.com
2021-09-27 21:49:58 UTC
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Post by Quadibloc
Post by Michael F. Stemper
Post by Quadibloc
So he pushes Venus into the L5 point of the Earth-Sun system,
terraforms it or creates some human habitat space on it...
Superboy's secret identity is Alexander Abian? Cool!
Oh, no. 'Way off at the L5 point, it shouldn't disturb the Earth's orbit - except
perhaps to make it more stable. The tilt of its axis would be left alone.
The idea being - how to find a place to move, say, a black community that
was the target of an attempted massacre? Or, in general, a homeland for
the oppressed that wouldn't have to be stolen from someone else.
Venus... is the right size, and it's handy.
Quaddie's never loathe to make brown people's lives more difficult.

Why not move the attackers instead?

pt
Quadibloc
2021-09-27 22:06:38 UTC
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Post by ***@gmail.com
Quaddie's never loathe to make brown people's lives more difficult.
ITYM "loath".
Post by ***@gmail.com
Why not move the attackers instead?
The idea is that we're talking about the 1920s or the 1930s, where public
attitudes are different from what they are now.

Superman - or Superboy - is not planning to make himself Emperor
of Earth, or mold it into another Krypton. He is going to rescue those
who are menaced - but he can't take on the project of reforming the
whole system.

John Savard
J. Clarke
2021-09-27 22:48:34 UTC
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Permalink
On Mon, 27 Sep 2021 15:06:38 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc
Post by Quadibloc
Post by ***@gmail.com
Quaddie's never loathe to make brown people's lives more difficult.
ITYM "loath".
Post by ***@gmail.com
Why not move the attackers instead?
The idea is that we're talking about the 1920s or the 1930s, where public
attitudes are different from what they are now.
Superman - or Superboy - is not planning to make himself Emperor
of Earth, or mold it into another Krypton. He is going to rescue those
who are menaced - but he can't take on the project of reforming the
whole system.
So why doesn't he take them to Africa?
Quadibloc
2021-09-27 23:05:33 UTC
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Post by J. Clarke
So why doesn't he take them to Africa?
It's already full? Liberia didn't work out all that well?

John Savard
J. Clarke
2021-09-28 01:35:30 UTC
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On Mon, 27 Sep 2021 16:05:33 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc
Post by Quadibloc
Post by J. Clarke
So why doesn't he take them to Africa?
It's already full? Liberia didn't work out all that well?
So why would Venus work out better than Liberia?
pete...@gmail.com
2021-09-27 22:58:21 UTC
Reply
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Post by Quadibloc
Post by ***@gmail.com
Quaddie's never loathe to make brown people's lives more difficult.
ITYM "loath".
Both spellings are in use.
Post by Quadibloc
Post by ***@gmail.com
Why not move the attackers instead?
The idea is that we're talking about the 1920s or the 1930s, where public
attitudes are different from what they are now.
I see.

ISTR there were proposals in the 20s and 30s to create a Jewish
homeland in either Alaska or Madagascar. Palestine was apparently
out.

Stalin did create a Jewish SSR in the far reaches of Siberia.

Pt
pete...@gmail.com
2021-09-27 23:04:38 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by ***@gmail.com
Post by Quadibloc
Post by ***@gmail.com
Quaddie's never loathe to make brown people's lives more difficult.
ITYM "loath".
Both spellings are in use.
Post by Quadibloc
Post by ***@gmail.com
Why not move the attackers instead?
The idea is that we're talking about the 1920s or the 1930s, where public
attitudes are different from what they are now.
I see.
ISTR there were proposals in the 20s and 30s to create a Jewish
homeland in either Alaska or Madagascar. Palestine was apparently
out.
Stalin did create a Jewish SSR in the far reaches of Siberia.
Follow up: The Madagascar plan came from the Nazis. There was
also a proposal for Tasmania to be a Jewish homeland.

Pt
Quadibloc
2021-09-27 23:09:29 UTC
Reply
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Post by ***@gmail.com
Post by Quadibloc
Post by ***@gmail.com
Quaddie's never loathe to make brown people's lives more difficult.
ITYM "loath".
Both spellings are in use.
The word "loathe" is a verb, to be used in sentences like this:

I simply loathe that Donald Trump fellow.

The word "loath" is an adverb, to be used in sentences like this:

Donald Trump is loath to admit that he actually lost the 2020 election.

You are, though, right that "both spellings are in use" in a _sense_ - these
days, a lot of people are not terribly knowledgeable about English usage,
and so they confuse words like "loathe" and "loath", or "flaunt" and "flout"
and so on and so forth.

John Savard
pete...@gmail.com
2021-09-28 02:42:13 UTC
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Post by Quadibloc
Post by ***@gmail.com
Post by Quadibloc
Post by ***@gmail.com
Quaddie's never loathe to make brown people's lives more difficult.
ITYM "loath".
Both spellings are in use.
I simply loathe that Donald Trump fellow.
Donald Trump is loath to admit that he actually lost the 2020 election.
You are, though, right that "both spellings are in use" in a _sense_ - these
days, a lot of people are not terribly knowledgeable about English usage,
and so they confuse words like "loathe" and "loath", or "flaunt" and "flout"
and so on and so forth.
Appears you are correct.

Pt
Paul S Person
2021-09-28 15:46:58 UTC
Reply
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On Mon, 27 Sep 2021 16:09:29 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc
Post by Quadibloc
Post by ***@gmail.com
Post by Quadibloc
Post by ***@gmail.com
Quaddie's never loathe to make brown people's lives more difficult.
ITYM "loath".
Both spellings are in use.
I simply loathe that Donald Trump fellow.
Donald Trump is loath to admit that he actually lost the 2020 election.
You are, though, right that "both spellings are in use" in a _sense_ - these
days, a lot of people are not terribly knowledgeable about English usage,
and so they confuse words like "loathe" and "loath", or "flaunt" and "flout"
and so on and so forth.
Not to mention "affect" and "effect".

Or "can" and "may".

And there are others.
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."
J. Clarke
2021-09-28 01:39:42 UTC
Reply
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Post by ***@gmail.com
Post by Quadibloc
Post by ***@gmail.com
Quaddie's never loathe to make brown people's lives more difficult.
ITYM "loath".
Both spellings are in use.
Post by Quadibloc
Post by ***@gmail.com
Why not move the attackers instead?
The idea is that we're talking about the 1920s or the 1930s, where public
attitudes are different from what they are now.
I see.
ISTR there were proposals in the 20s and 30s to create a Jewish
homeland in either Alaska or Madagascar. Palestine was apparently
out.
Stalin did create a Jewish SSR in the far reaches of Siberia.
I presume you have read "The Yiddish Policemen's Union". If not you
might want to. It involves a Jewish homeland in Alaska.
pete...@gmail.com
2021-09-28 02:40:47 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by ***@gmail.com
Post by Quadibloc
Post by ***@gmail.com
Quaddie's never loathe to make brown people's lives more difficult.
ITYM "loath".
Both spellings are in use.
Post by Quadibloc
Post by ***@gmail.com
Why not move the attackers instead?
The idea is that we're talking about the 1920s or the 1930s, where public
attitudes are different from what they are now.
I see.
ISTR there were proposals in the 20s and 30s to create a Jewish
homeland in either Alaska or Madagascar. Palestine was apparently
out.
Stalin did create a Jewish SSR in the far reaches of Siberia.
I presume you have read "The Yiddish Policemen's Union". If not you
might want to. It involves a Jewish homeland in Alaska.
Chabon's work is based in the Slattery Report.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slattery_Report

Pt
Titus G
2021-09-29 02:49:11 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by ***@gmail.com
Post by ***@gmail.com
Post by Quadibloc
Post by ***@gmail.com
Quaddie's never loathe to make brown people's lives more difficult.
ITYM "loath".
Both spellings are in use.
Post by Quadibloc
Post by ***@gmail.com
Why not move the attackers instead?
The idea is that we're talking about the 1920s or the 1930s, where public
attitudes are different from what they are now.
I see.
ISTR there were proposals in the 20s and 30s to create a Jewish
homeland in either Alaska or Madagascar. Palestine was apparently
out.
Stalin did create a Jewish SSR in the far reaches of Siberia.
I presume you have read "The Yiddish Policemen's Union". If not you
might want to. It involves a Jewish homeland in Alaska.
Chabon's work is based in the Slattery Report.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slattery_Report
It is a while since I read "The Yiddish Policemen's Union" but other
than being a different culture, there was nothing in an actual real
world political sense regarding Zionism or Judaism that was relevant to
the plot or story other than background. It was an enjoyable read which
I would recommend but the Jews in Canada could have been any different
cultural group. Is my memory correct?
Bice
2021-09-29 11:58:20 UTC
Reply
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Post by Titus G
Post by ***@gmail.com
I presume you have read "The Yiddish Policemen's Union". If not you
might want to. It involves a Jewish homeland in Alaska.
Chabon's work is based in the Slattery Report.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slattery_Report
Thanks for that link - having just read the book recently, I was
unaware that its alternate timeline angle was based on a real-life
plan that never came to pass.
Post by Titus G
It is a while since I read "The Yiddish Policemen's Union" but other
than being a different culture, there was nothing in an actual real
world political sense regarding Zionism or Judaism that was relevant to
the plot or story other than background. It was an enjoyable read which
I would recommend but the Jews in Canada could have been any different
cultural group. Is my memory correct?
(SPOILER WARNING - stop here if you plan to read the book)


The murder that the main character is investigating turns out to be
part of a politically-driven plot to use Jewish prophesies about the
return of the Messiah to kick off a war in the Middle East. That plot
line was left hanging at the end of the book, but politics regarding
Zionism and Judaism are definitely relevant to the plot.

-- Bob
William Hyde
2021-09-29 21:56:35 UTC
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Post by Titus G
Post by ***@gmail.com
Post by ***@gmail.com
Post by Quadibloc
Post by ***@gmail.com
Quaddie's never loathe to make brown people's lives more difficult.
ITYM "loath".
Both spellings are in use.
Post by Quadibloc
Post by ***@gmail.com
Why not move the attackers instead?
The idea is that we're talking about the 1920s or the 1930s, where public
attitudes are different from what they are now.
I see.
ISTR there were proposals in the 20s and 30s to create a Jewish
homeland in either Alaska or Madagascar. Palestine was apparently
out.
Stalin did create a Jewish SSR in the far reaches of Siberia.
I presume you have read "The Yiddish Policemen's Union". If not you
might want to. It involves a Jewish homeland in Alaska.
Chabon's work is based in the Slattery Report.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slattery_Report
It is a while since I read "The Yiddish Policemen's Union" but other
than being a different culture, there was nothing in an actual real
world political sense regarding Zionism or Judaism that was relevant to
the plot or story other than background. It was an enjoyable read which
I would recommend but the Jews in Canada could have been any different
cultural group. Is my memory correct?
The prewar Jewish community in Montreal/Toronto drew from the same sources as the community in New York
(Asimov's first wife, for example) minus the inquisition-escaping Portuguese Jewish community of NY (e.g. in Silverberg's "The Stochastic Man") which I don't think cared to escape Iberia for the winters of Montreal.

William Hyde
Paul S Person
2021-09-28 15:45:49 UTC
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On Mon, 27 Sep 2021 15:06:38 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc
Post by Quadibloc
Post by ***@gmail.com
Quaddie's never loathe to make brown people's lives more difficult.
ITYM "loath".
Post by ***@gmail.com
Why not move the attackers instead?
The idea is that we're talking about the 1920s or the 1930s, where public
attitudes are different from what they are now.
Superman - or Superboy - is not planning to make himself Emperor
of Earth, or mold it into another Krypton. He is going to rescue those
who are menaced - but he can't take on the project of reforming the
whole system.
Nice evasion.

But moving the aggressors so they could aggress against ... each other
... would work at least as well.
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."
Quadibloc
2021-09-28 23:27:47 UTC
Reply
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Post by J. Clarke
On Mon, 27 Sep 2021 15:06:38 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc
Post by Quadibloc
Superman - or Superboy - is not planning to make himself Emperor
of Earth, or mold it into another Krypton. He is going to rescue those
who are menaced - but he can't take on the project of reforming the
whole system.
Nice evasion.
But moving the aggressors so they could aggress against ... each other
... would work at least as well.
If you see that as an evasion, you're missing my point.

Moving the aggressors would be non-consensual.

Given an existing legal and political system that condones aggression
against persecuted minority groups, and which protects the
aggressors -

and the need for Superboy to retain the approval of the authorities,
so that he can be the most effective at fighting crime, natural disasters,
and alien invaders -

he has to work within the limitations on his options.

The idea is for a way in which the convention of the comic that
Superman was uncontroversial and enjoyed not only general
acclaim, but various deputizations from the government is
retained - while _also_ having him recognize, and respond to, the
injustices of the time.

So while he can't bring justice to the perpetrators, because the
law refuses to do it, and he works within the law - he can at least
rescue the victims and help them to escape. (Admittedly, even
_that_ will annoy some people in positions of power.)

John Savard
J. Clarke
2021-09-29 00:49:59 UTC
Reply
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On Tue, 28 Sep 2021 16:27:47 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc
Post by Quadibloc
Post by J. Clarke
On Mon, 27 Sep 2021 15:06:38 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc
Post by Quadibloc
Superman - or Superboy - is not planning to make himself Emperor
of Earth, or mold it into another Krypton. He is going to rescue those
who are menaced - but he can't take on the project of reforming the
whole system.
Nice evasion.
But moving the aggressors so they could aggress against ... each other
... would work at least as well.
If you see that as an evasion, you're missing my point.
Moving the aggressors would be non-consensual.
Given an existing legal and political system that condones aggression
against persecuted minority groups, and which protects the
aggressors -
and the need for Superboy to retain the approval of the authorities,
so that he can be the most effective at fighting crime, natural disasters,
and alien invaders -
he has to work within the limitations on his options.
The idea is for a way in which the convention of the comic that
Superman was uncontroversial and enjoyed not only general
acclaim, but various deputizations from the government is
retained - while _also_ having him recognize, and respond to, the
injustices of the time.
So while he can't bring justice to the perpetrators, because the
law refuses to do it, and he works within the law - he can at least
rescue the victims and help them to escape. (Admittedly, even
_that_ will annoy some people in positions of power.)
Why would there be anybody but him in positions of power? What stops
him from becoming emperor of the world?
Quadibloc
2021-09-29 01:22:44 UTC
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Permalink
Why would there be anybody but him in positions of power? What stops
him from becoming emperor of the world?
Lex Luthor couldn't figure out the answer to that question either.

But the readers know, because the people writing the comic sought
to make sure they knew. What stopped him was the deep sense of
right and wrong instilled in him by his Earthly parents, Jonathan and
Martha Kent.

John Savard
J. Clarke
2021-09-29 04:26:13 UTC
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On Tue, 28 Sep 2021 18:22:44 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc
Post by Quadibloc
Why would there be anybody but him in positions of power? What stops
him from becoming emperor of the world?
Lex Luthor couldn't figure out the answer to that question either.
But the readers know, because the people writing the comic sought
to make sure they knew. What stopped him was the deep sense of
right and wrong instilled in him by his Earthly parents, Jonathan and
Martha Kent.
But a "deep sense of right and wrong" would require that he become
emperor of the world, otherwise there's no way to impose right and end
wrong.
Quadibloc
2021-09-29 05:58:25 UTC
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Post by J. Clarke
But a "deep sense of right and wrong" would require that he become
emperor of the world, otherwise there's no way to impose right and end
wrong.
Some people might indeed see it that way, but Superman's just not
that type.

Perhaps reviewing Action Comics issues 311 and 312 is in order.

John Savard
Paul S Person
2021-09-29 16:02:30 UTC
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On Wed, 29 Sep 2021 00:26:13 -0400, J. Clarke
Post by J. Clarke
On Tue, 28 Sep 2021 18:22:44 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc
Post by Quadibloc
Why would there be anybody but him in positions of power? What stops
him from becoming emperor of the world?
Lex Luthor couldn't figure out the answer to that question either.
But the readers know, because the people writing the comic sought
to make sure they knew. What stopped him was the deep sense of
right and wrong instilled in him by his Earthly parents, Jonathan and
Martha Kent.
But a "deep sense of right and wrong" would require that he become
emperor of the world, otherwise there's no way to impose right and end
wrong.
But he's also a "Boy Scout".

Which usually seems to me to be used, with regard to Superman, as
meaning "not full of himself". And so not likely to reach the
conclusion you suggest.
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."
James Nicoll
2021-09-29 16:07:03 UTC
Reply
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Post by Paul S Person
On Wed, 29 Sep 2021 00:26:13 -0400, J. Clarke
Post by J. Clarke
On Tue, 28 Sep 2021 18:22:44 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc
Post by Quadibloc
Why would there be anybody but him in positions of power? What stops
him from becoming emperor of the world?
Lex Luthor couldn't figure out the answer to that question either.
But the readers know, because the people writing the comic sought
to make sure they knew. What stopped him was the deep sense of
right and wrong instilled in him by his Earthly parents, Jonathan and
Martha Kent.
But a "deep sense of right and wrong" would require that he become
emperor of the world, otherwise there's no way to impose right and end
wrong.
But he's also a "Boy Scout".
Which usually seems to me to be used, with regard to Superman, as
meaning "not full of himself". And so not likely to reach the
conclusion you suggest.
Versions have, invariably presented as Superman having gone down the wrong
path.
--
My reviews can be found at http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/
My tor pieces at https://www.tor.com/author/james-davis-nicoll/
My Dreamwidth at https://james-davis-nicoll.dreamwidth.org/
My patreon is at https://www.patreon.com/jamesdnicoll
J. Clarke
2021-09-29 22:19:33 UTC
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Post by James Nicoll
Post by Paul S Person
On Wed, 29 Sep 2021 00:26:13 -0400, J. Clarke
Post by J. Clarke
On Tue, 28 Sep 2021 18:22:44 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc
Post by Quadibloc
Why would there be anybody but him in positions of power? What stops
him from becoming emperor of the world?
Lex Luthor couldn't figure out the answer to that question either.
But the readers know, because the people writing the comic sought
to make sure they knew. What stopped him was the deep sense of
right and wrong instilled in him by his Earthly parents, Jonathan and
Martha Kent.
But a "deep sense of right and wrong" would require that he become
emperor of the world, otherwise there's no way to impose right and end
wrong.
But he's also a "Boy Scout".
Which usually seems to me to be used, with regard to Superman, as
meaning "not full of himself". And so not likely to reach the
conclusion you suggest.
Versions have, invariably presented as Superman having gone down the wrong
path.
And it's not a matter of "being full of himself". Cop's killing black
guy. Supes decides to see why the cop's allowed to get away with it,
uses X-ray vision and superhearing and whatnot to monitor discussions
between cop, manager, etc, finds out that they're just doing what's
expected of them, after a while he's up to the President. So now what
does he do, does he just let the whole corrupt system rot, or does he
drag bad cops to the police station one at a time where they get
released, or does he start at the top and start running shit downhill?
Quadibloc
2021-09-29 23:44:10 UTC
Reply
Permalink
And it's not a matter of "being full of himself". Cop's killing black
guy. Supes decides to see why the cop's allowed to get away with it,
Ah. Now that's the *present day*.

That's a whole other kettle of fish. I was specifically talking about the
situation in the 1920s and 1930s, where stuff happened like white
people rioting and exterminating whole neighborhoods of black people.

I wasn't talking about the moral issue in the abstract. I figured you were
talking about _me_ instead of Superman. You would be right to suspect
that I would be far less resistant than him to the temptation to become
the ruler of Earth to stamp out what I saw as wrongdoing.

I was taking it as a given that Superman had to remain a "Boy Scout",
as Paul Person put it, because we're talking about a comic book sold
to children. But if DC were to re-do Superman as a "period piece" -
instead of making him a present-day hero to be the most accessible
to young audiences today - but instead have his career taking place in
the period where adults today remember it taking place from the comic
books they read as children...

and they used their new freedom to at least acknowledge that racial
issues even *exist* to address what is the most glaring anomaly in those
old comic books...

what would the result look like?

That's the question I was asking. You can't go home again, but how close
can you get?

So one tries to preserve the essential character of the old comic books,
and yet reconcile them with an adult knowledge of the world.

Venus, in its new position, known as "Superman's star", sends a message
of hope and racial equality to the people of the world each evening.

John Savard
J. Clarke
2021-09-30 00:41:08 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Wed, 29 Sep 2021 16:44:10 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc
Post by Quadibloc
And it's not a matter of "being full of himself". Cop's killing black
guy. Supes decides to see why the cop's allowed to get away with it,
Ah. Now that's the *present day*.
That's a whole other kettle of fish. I was specifically talking about the
situation in the 1920s and 1930s, where stuff happened like white
people rioting and exterminating whole neighborhoods of black people.
I wasn't talking about the moral issue in the abstract. I figured you were
talking about _me_ instead of Superman. You would be right to suspect
that I would be far less resistant than him to the temptation to become
the ruler of Earth to stamp out what I saw as wrongdoing.
I was taking it as a given that Superman had to remain a "Boy Scout",
as Paul Person put it, because we're talking about a comic book sold
to children. But if DC were to re-do Superman as a "period piece" -
instead of making him a present-day hero to be the most accessible
to young audiences today - but instead have his career taking place in
the period where adults today remember it taking place from the comic
books they read as children...
and they used their new freedom to at least acknowledge that racial
issues even *exist* to address what is the most glaring anomaly in those
old comic books...
what would the result look like?
That's the question I was asking. You can't go home again, but how close
can you get?
So one tries to preserve the essential character of the old comic books,
and yet reconcile them with an adult knowledge of the world.
Venus, in its new position, known as "Superman's star", sends a message
of hope and racial equality to the people of the world each evening.
More likely it will end up another Botany Bay.
Quadibloc
2021-09-30 02:05:02 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by J. Clarke
On Wed, 29 Sep 2021 16:44:10 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc
Post by Quadibloc
Venus, in its new position, known as "Superman's star", sends a message
of hope and racial equality to the people of the world each evening.
More likely it will end up another Botany Bay.
Confronting, in a story, an element of reality that... cannot entirely
be glossed over, lest the story ring false... is not the same as letting
reality take over control of the plot.

John Savard
Robert Carnegie
2021-09-30 00:41:55 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Quadibloc
And it's not a matter of "being full of himself". Cop's killing black
guy. Supes decides to see why the cop's allowed to get away with it,
Ah. Now that's the *present day*.
That's a whole other kettle of fish. I was specifically talking about the
situation in the 1920s and 1930s, where stuff happened like white
people rioting and exterminating whole neighborhoods of black people.
I wasn't talking about the moral issue in the abstract. I figured you were
talking about _me_ instead of Superman. You would be right to suspect
that I would be far less resistant than him to the temptation to become
the ruler of Earth to stamp out what I saw as wrongdoing.
I was taking it as a given that Superman had to remain a "Boy Scout",
as Paul Person put it, because we're talking about a comic book sold
to children. But if DC were to re-do Superman as a "period piece" -
instead of making him a present-day hero to be the most accessible
to young audiences today - but instead have his career taking place in
the period where adults today remember it taking place from the comic
books they read as children...
and they used their new freedom to at least acknowledge that racial
issues even *exist* to address what is the most glaring anomaly in those
old comic books...
what would the result look like?
That's the question I was asking. You can't go home again, but how close
can you get?
So one tries to preserve the essential character of the old comic books,
and yet reconcile them with an adult knowledge of the world.
Venus, in its new position, known as "Superman's star", sends a message
of hope and racial equality to the people of the world each evening.
You're assuming that Superman is brought up
in early 20th century rural America and doesn't
become racist himself?
Quadibloc
2021-09-30 01:46:10 UTC
Reply
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Post by Robert Carnegie
You're assuming that Superman is brought up
in early 20th century rural America and doesn't
become racist himself?
That is a question that can be asked, but I consciously
chose not to go there.

John Savard
James Nicoll
2021-09-30 13:40:46 UTC
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Post by Robert Carnegie
You're assuming that Superman is brought up
in early 20th century rural America and doesn't
become racist himself?
Because in the comics, he managed to land in the backyard of
Kansas farmers who were not raving bigots. This may seem unlikely
but it's historical fact some Kansans, some quite prominent,
energetically opposed the KKK.
--
My reviews can be found at http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/
My tor pieces at https://www.tor.com/author/james-davis-nicoll/
My Dreamwidth at https://james-davis-nicoll.dreamwidth.org/
My patreon is at https://www.patreon.com/jamesdnicoll
Kevrob
2021-09-30 14:44:38 UTC
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Post by James Nicoll
Post by Robert Carnegie
You're assuming that Superman is brought up
in early 20th century rural America and doesn't
become racist himself?
Because in the comics, he managed to land in the backyard of
Kansas farmers who were not raving bigots. This may seem unlikely
but it's historical fact some Kansans, some quite prominent,
energetically opposed the KKK.
--
Kansas, specifically, was a late edition to the mythos. As early stories took
place in some generic city, or even S&S's hometown of Cleveland - though
Shuster used some Toronto sites for reference - before the fictional Metropolis
became part of the strip. In the same wise, Smallville takes awhile to emerge,
and it is a town in Metropolis' hinterland or even more vaguely located. If "the
Big Apricot" is a standing for New York, Superboy's hometown could be any
rural area in NY state, New Jersey, Pennsylania or even Ohio.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smallville_(comics)#Location

The Kansas region did get mined for stories about, among other things,
the Underground Railroad.

https://www.comics.org/issue/299358/cover/4/
--
Kevin R
J. Clarke
2021-09-30 16:30:02 UTC
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Post by James Nicoll
Post by Robert Carnegie
You're assuming that Superman is brought up
in early 20th century rural America and doesn't
become racist himself?
Because in the comics, he managed to land in the backyard of
Kansas farmers who were not raving bigots. This may seem unlikely
but it's historical fact some Kansans, some quite prominent,
energetically opposed the KKK.
Doesn't mean they weren't bigots. My mother claimed to support
equality, claimed to have black friends, but she had a hissy fit if
she thought I was going to drive through the black section of town
after dark.
Quadibloc
2021-09-30 22:53:00 UTC
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Permalink
Doesn't mean they weren't bigots. My mother claimed to support
equality, claimed to have black friends, but she had a hissy fit if
she thought I was going to drive through the black section of town
after dark.
How is that proof of bigotry?

If, in your town, the black section of town was not particularly
dangerous, then it might indeed be evidence of uninformed
prejudice on her part.

I remember watching a documentary show - perhaps W5,
or some other Canadian show similar to the American
show 60 Minutes - which illustrated the crime problem in
the slums of Los Angeles by showing a fast-food outlet
run by black people in what appeared to be the middle
of a busy intersection (no doubt the relationship of the land
on which the restaurant sat to the adjacent roadway was
somewhat more nuanced) and they dealt with customers
through revolving-door like things made of thick plastic
because, we were informed, there were frequent shootings
in the area.

Apparently, then, there is a genuine safety issue with many
of America's inner cities.

John Savard
J. Clarke
2021-10-01 00:36:22 UTC
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On Thu, 30 Sep 2021 15:53:00 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc
Post by Quadibloc
Doesn't mean they weren't bigots. My mother claimed to support
equality, claimed to have black friends, but she had a hissy fit if
she thought I was going to drive through the black section of town
after dark.
How is that proof of bigotry?
If, in your town, the black section of town was not particularly
dangerous, then it might indeed be evidence of uninformed
prejudice on her part.
I remember watching a documentary show - perhaps W5,
or some other Canadian show similar to the American
show 60 Minutes - which illustrated the crime problem in
the slums of Los Angeles by showing a fast-food outlet
run by black people in what appeared to be the middle
of a busy intersection (no doubt the relationship of the land
on which the restaurant sat to the adjacent roadway was
somewhat more nuanced) and they dealt with customers
through revolving-door like things made of thick plastic
because, we were informed, there were frequent shootings
in the area.
Apparently, then, there is a genuine safety issue with many
of America's inner cities.
John, she has hissy fits when I was in my 20s over this. I drove the
same route every day of the week. Sometimes in the morning, sometimes
late at night, sometimes at 2AM on a Saturday morning drunk. And
never had a problem. Ever.
Paul S Person
2021-10-01 15:41:35 UTC
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Permalink
On Thu, 30 Sep 2021 15:53:00 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc
Post by Quadibloc
Doesn't mean they weren't bigots. My mother claimed to support
equality, claimed to have black friends, but she had a hissy fit if
she thought I was going to drive through the black section of town
after dark.
How is that proof of bigotry?
If, in your town, the black section of town was not particularly
dangerous, then it might indeed be evidence of uninformed
prejudice on her part.
I remember watching a documentary show - perhaps W5,
or some other Canadian show similar to the American
show 60 Minutes - which illustrated the crime problem in
the slums of Los Angeles by showing a fast-food outlet
run by black people in what appeared to be the middle
of a busy intersection (no doubt the relationship of the land
on which the restaurant sat to the adjacent roadway was
somewhat more nuanced) and they dealt with customers
through revolving-door like things made of thick plastic
because, we were informed, there were frequent shootings
in the area.
Apparently, then, there is a genuine safety issue with many
of America's inner cities.
Oh, yeah, and those parts featureing Po' White Trash descendante are
/so/ much safer. As if.

Your racist assumptions are showing.
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."
Quadibloc
2021-10-01 19:19:18 UTC
Reply
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Post by J. Clarke
On Thu, 30 Sep 2021 15:53:00 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc
Post by Quadibloc
Apparently, then, there is a genuine safety issue with many
of America's inner cities.
Oh, yeah, and those parts featureing Po' White Trash descendante are
/so/ much safer. As if.
Your racist assumptions are showing.
I did say "many of America's inner cities", not _all_ of them.

I'm not claiming that black people are somehow genetically
flawed, being closer to the great apes, and thus with less
control over their violent impulses. That would be racist (or,
more precisely, bigoted).

On the other hand, I *did* assume that J. Clarke was *white*
himself, and so only safety for white people was at issue.
If one were *black*, there indeed might be a heck of a lot of
places inhabited by white trash that were less safe than even
the worst of America's black slums. If one is white, well, no
doubt there _are_ some remote locations inhabited by white
trash that are unsafe, but they're likely not to be located within
urban areas so that one might be tempted to drive through them
to save a few minutes, some gasoline, and/or a bridge toll.

So I suppose it depends on your definition of "racist".

John Savard
Paul S Person
2021-10-02 15:37:18 UTC
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Permalink
Post by Quadibloc
Post by J. Clarke
On Thu, 30 Sep 2021 15:53:00 -0700 (PDT), Quadibloc
Post by Quadibloc
Apparently, then, there is a genuine safety issue with many
of America's inner cities.
Oh, yeah, and those parts featureing Po' White Trash descendante are
/so/ much safer. As if.
Your racist assumptions are showing.
I did say "many of America's inner cities", not _all_ of them.
I'm not claiming that black people are somehow genetically
flawed, being closer to the great apes, and thus with less
control over their violent impulses. That would be racist (or,
more precisely, bigoted).
On the other hand, I *did* assume that J. Clarke was *white*
himself, and so only safety for white people was at issue.
If one were *black*, there indeed might be a heck of a lot of
places inhabited by white trash that were less safe than even
the worst of America's black slums. If one is white, well, no
doubt there _are_ some remote locations inhabited by white
trash that are unsafe, but they're likely not to be located within
urban areas so that one might be tempted to drive through them
to save a few minutes, some gasoline, and/or a bridge toll.
So I suppose it depends on your definition of "racist".
It is racist to pretend that the problem was "violence" if it was, in
fact, skin color.
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."
Quadibloc
2021-10-02 15:54:43 UTC
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Post by Paul S Person
It is racist to pretend that the problem was "violence" if it was, in
fact, skin color.
I'd agree with that.

I'd also agree that having a problem with skin color was racist.

But where is there any evidence of that?

Of course, I dare not press this argument _too_ far, because I could
come up with a "proof" that racism isn't racist.

Seriously.

Let's take the most racist white people you could find in the United
States. Racist towards black people, that is, though.

Do you think that they hate black people... because the color of
their skins clashes with their drapes or something?

If you go back to the 19th century, you'll find that there was some
anti-Irish sentiment to be found in the United States. Some of those
who fanned its flames no doubt hated Roman Catholics for other
reasons, and just used this as an excuse... but the basis on which this
sentiment grew was that the Irish immigrants were poor, so they
worked for low wages, and lived in slums, and as a consequence, an
elevated level of crime was found among them.

Many black people are economically disadvantaged, and this has
resulted in them being more likely to get in trouble with the law for
legitimate reasons. (And that has resulted in some law enforcement
agencies responding so that law-abiding black people are much more
likely to get in trouble with the law, apparently, but that's a separate
issue.)

So you have a situation where some measure of prejudice against
black people... is not irrational.

What is bigoted is in assuming the cause of the problem is some inherent
deficiency in black people themselves, instead of the economic disadvantage
they suffer as a result of past and present discrimination. (In my naive
optimism, I assume that if one can avoid the bigotry, it becomes possible to
work towards solutions to the problem.)

John Savard
Robert Carnegie
2021-10-02 16:26:15 UTC
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I see it like the song says, "Everyone's a little bit racist
sometimes". If someone doesn't see that in themself -
then it's probably more than a little.

I think it may be the wrong metaphor that "if you can't
see the lines then you probably aren't even close to
coloring inside the lines".

Maybe: if you say all notes are equal to you, then you're
a rotten composer.
Quadibloc
2021-10-02 18:07:36 UTC
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Post by Robert Carnegie
Maybe: if you say all notes are equal to you, then you're
a rotten composer.
On the other hand, perfect pitch is said to be more of a handicap
than an asset in music...

In the discussion above, partly for lack of space, I neglected to even
mention the other major cause of racism besides bigotry and prejudice.

Of course there's also ethnocentricism. However, selfishness is so
natural and universal, even if it should be resisted, I didn't think I had
anything useful to say about it.

John Savard

Paul S Person
2021-10-01 15:42:48 UTC
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On Thu, 30 Sep 2021 12:30:02 -0400, J. Clarke
Post by J. Clarke
Post by James Nicoll
Post by Robert Carnegie
You're assuming that Superman is brought up
in early 20th century rural America and doesn't
become racist himself?
Because in the comics, he managed to land in the backyard of
Kansas farmers who were not raving bigots. This may seem unlikely
but it's historical fact some Kansans, some quite prominent,
energetically opposed the KKK.
Doesn't mean they weren't bigots. My mother claimed to support
equality, claimed to have black friends, but she had a hissy fit if
she thought I was going to drive through the black section of town
after dark.
Well, at least she had the decency to /claim/ not to be racist. That's
a /lot/ better from glorying in it.

And it does take a lot of time and effort to overcome a lifetime of
bad habits and beliefs.
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."
Magewolf
2021-10-01 19:49:28 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by J. Clarke
You're assuming that Superman is brought up in early 20th century
rural America and doesn't become racist himself?
Because in the comics, he managed to land in the backyard of Kansas
farmers who were not raving bigots. This may seem unlikely but it's
historical fact some Kansans, some quite prominent, energetically
opposed the KKK.
Doesn't mean they weren't bigots. My mother claimed to support
equality, claimed to have black friends, but she had a hissy fit if she
thought I was going to drive through the black section of town after
dark.
Well, at least she had the decency to /claim/ not to be racist. That's a
/lot/ better from glorying in it.
And it does take a lot of time and effort to overcome a lifetime of bad
habits and beliefs.
How do you tell if that is racist? The closest town to me has been
averaging over one and a half killings a month so far this year in the
"old mill village"(some of which have been random bystanders) while the
rest of the town has not had one in five years.
Paul S Person
2021-10-02 15:40:13 UTC
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Post by Magewolf
Post by J. Clarke
You're assuming that Superman is brought up in early 20th century
rural America and doesn't become racist himself?
Because in the comics, he managed to land in the backyard of Kansas
farmers who were not raving bigots. This may seem unlikely but it's
historical fact some Kansans, some quite prominent, energetically
opposed the KKK.
Doesn't mean they weren't bigots. My mother claimed to support
equality, claimed to have black friends, but she had a hissy fit if she
thought I was going to drive through the black section of town after
dark.
Well, at least she had the decency to /claim/ not to be racist. That's a
/lot/ better from glorying in it.
And it does take a lot of time and effort to overcome a lifetime of bad
habits and beliefs.
How do you tell if that is racist? The closest town to me has been
averaging over one and a half killings a month so far this year in the
"old mill village"(some of which have been random bystanders) while the
rest of the town has not had one in five years.
What was she objecting to? Violence -- or skin tone?

Not so hard after all, is it.
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."
Quadibloc
2021-10-01 19:48:26 UTC
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Post by J. Clarke
Doesn't mean they weren't bigots.
I'm taking the portrait of Jonathan Kent as given in the Superman
comics of the Silver Age. This portrait depicts him as a repository
of every virtue and no vice (well, with the exception of smoking).

But just because he isn't _bigoted_ doesn't mean, by a long shot,
that he is _woke_.

Basically, this indeed is where I expect the dramatic tension in my
scenario to come from.

So I would fully expect Jonathan Kent, in the 1920s or 1930s, to hold
an attitude that was still around in the 1960s - that it just isn't possible
to "impose" racial equality from the outside, one has to wait for
attitudes to change.

This is a viewpoint that is not without validity. But it isn't complete in
itself; it needs to be defended, and the limits of its validity need to be
explored.

An immediate reaction to that viewpoint would be to dismiss it on
this basis:

Of course acts by one person or group of persons that violate the
rights of another person or group of persons can be, may be, and
should be suppressed by force: otherwise, we wouldn't have the
police.

So is it that in the case of racial discrimination, there is... a shortage
of resources? If so, solutions come to mind:

"Just watch me." - Pierre Elliot Trudeau

"Political power grows out of the barrel of a gun." - Mao Tse-Tung

Of course, these quotes, particularly the latter, bring to mind another
set of possible concerns. Perhaps one is seeking to satisfy an additional
set of constraints that has not been mentioned.

So, for example:

I read news items about how Coptic Christians are persecuted in Egypt.

Examples:

Coptic Christians are falsely accused of sexual assault, and are imprisoned
for it without any real investigation.
Muslims commit sexual assault against Coptic Christians, and the charges
are dropped.
Young women from the Coptic Christian community are kidnapped, forced
to "convert" to Islam, and then "married" to the Muslim who took a fancy to
them.

I think this persecution of Coptic Christians should be ended. I see no reason
why it can't be ended, simply by bringing sufficient force to bear.

If the Muslim majority population of Egypt doesn't adapt well to the new
circumstances... well, then their movements can be restricted like those of
Palestinians in Israel. Or they can be removed from Egypt and scattered
to the four winds, those who survive. That's their choice, and I don't particularly
care.

So, of course, if one happens to *care* about the survival of the white population
of states in the Deep South, and one expects those states to continue to exist
as functioning democracies, which implies majority rule (and blacks are the
minority there, even if less so than in some Northern states)...

then, of course, one "can't" impose full equality for black people if nearly all
the white people in those states haven't been won over to the idea.

One doesn't have to be racist, in the sense of thinking that an inferior,
unequal status for black people is right, just, and proper, not to be
particularly bloody-minded about how to do away with said inferior status.

Of course, though, if one isn't willing to put... even a *little* pressure...
on the white community, the criticism can be made that one is
racist in another way: of insufficiently valuing the interests, well-being, and
comfort of black people versus the interests, well-being, and comfort of
white people.

Now we're getting to the point where the issue is out in the open,
and perhaps a nuanced political debate is possible.

John Savard
Quadibloc
2021-10-01 22:36:57 UTC
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Post by Quadibloc
Now we're getting to the point where the issue is out in the open,
and perhaps a nuanced political debate is possible.
As it happens, there is a humorous illustration of the principle involved
from recent Canadian politics.

It is the resignation of Annamie Paul as leader of the Green Party in
Canada of which I speak.

I don't know the faith to which her parents and grandparents adhered;
Wikipedia failed to help me on this one. So it might be quite unfair to
follow Archie Bunker, by acknowledging that Annamie Paul could not
help being born black... but why did she follow the example of Sammy
Davis Jr.?

Noah Zatzman is no Louis Farrakhan, but that's about the kindest thing
I can say about him, given that he has failed to acknowledge his responsibility
for Annamie Paul's fate.

In a Facebook post, Noah Zatzman, who helped organize funding for
Annamie Paul's successful leadership campaign, criticized several
figures in politics - NDP leader Jagmeet Singh, several Liberal MPs,
and also some people within the Green Party - of "appalling anti-Semitism
and racism", and went on to say, presumably of those outside the
Green Party, "We will not accept an apology after you realize what
you’ve done. We will work to defeat you and bring in progressive
climate champions who are antifa and pro LGBT and pro indigenous
sovereignty and Zionists!!!!!"

Many within the Green Party, which is left-wing and
progressive, probably took one look at that statement, and
said to themselves, "Cognitive dissonance, much?".

They asked for Noah Zatzman's head on a pike, and when
Annamie Paul didn't deliver, the path towards her ouster was
set in motion.

Mixed metaphor alert: ObSf "The Roads Must Roll".

And so the Green Party of Canada is on the road to becoming the
Rodney Dangerfield

oops, I mean

the _Ilhan Omar_ of Canadian politics.

I support the right of Israel to exist. After 9/11 particularly,
this seems almost like a no-brainer.

Basically, it isn't a racist stereotype of Arabs that has led Jews
to fear for their fate under majority Muslim rule; one can take
one look at how the Coptic Christians are faring under Muslim rule in
Egypt to see that their concerns are utterly valid.

But the existence of Israel has led to the Palestinians being caught
in the middle. The view that the only just solution to the situation
of the Palestinians is for them all to be resettled in Israel - with no
cession of territory by the surrounding Muslim states to house refugees
from the creation of Israel - can of course be criticized in the light of
those states' original attempt to drive Israel into the sea...

but to criticize it as _racist_ is, or at least appears, to endorse the
notion that the territorial integrity of the Arab world is somehow
legitimately less inviolate than the territorial integrity of
the United States of America, or Britain, and so on.

Or, to make it clearer, the view that the State of Israel is a manifestation
of Western colonialism... while it may come from people whose
other political views we don't much like for all sorts of legitimate
reasons... is _not_ on the face of it obviously absurd.

There are times when playing the race card is Super Effective.
This is not one of them.

John Savard
Quadibloc
2021-09-29 23:49:26 UTC
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Post by Paul S Person
Which usually seems to me to be used, with regard to Superman, as
meaning "not full of himself". And so not likely to reach the
conclusion you suggest.
And Action 311 and 312, of course, features a story that...
illustrates the point well.

Here, Superman pretends to make himself an evil dictator of the Earth...
but for a good cause! To prevent panic at an attempted alien invasion
of the Earth from the planet Bxpa!

However, the plan is complicated by an accident with Red Kryptonite.

So the adventure turns out to chronicle the most bonehead mistake
Superman ever made in his whole career... the Earth is nearly
destroyed because Superman is too modest to acknowledge that
genuine courage, not just bravado born of invulnerability, is one of
his virtues (as the reader would have known from "Superman Under
the Green Sun", for example).

So sometimes Superman is too not-full of himself for his own good.

John Savard
Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
2021-08-20 23:32:51 UTC
Reply
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Post by Quadibloc
I can't sympathize with their mentality. Of course one could hardly
imagine a comic book less calculated to appeal to fanboys as
this one, but what's wrong with DC attempting to broaden its
readership by also publishing comics that appeal to other
demographics?
It's a very weird sort of elitism. You see it among Linux types, too,
though not as much in recent years.

You've got a small, socially isolated group of outsiders whose self-
image starts and ends with being "wierd" and "different" and thus
"better" than "normal people." In this case, comic book fans. If the
publishers start publishing stuff that appeals to the mainstream,
they view it as - literally - an assault on their identity.
--
Terry Austin

Proof that Alan Baker is a liar and a fool, and even stupider than
Lynn:
https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/stats/sw-border-migration
(May 2019 total for people arrested for entering the United States
illegally is over 132,000 for just the southwest border.)

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB
Kevrob
2021-08-21 03:12:09 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
Post by Quadibloc
I can't sympathize with their mentality. Of course one could hardly
imagine a comic book less calculated to appeal to fanboys as
this one, but what's wrong with DC attempting to broaden its
readership by also publishing comics that appeal to other
demographics?
It's a very weird sort of elitism. You see it among Linux types, too,
though not as much in recent years.
You've got a small, socially isolated group of outsiders whose self-
image starts and ends with being "wierd" and "different" and thus
"better" than "normal people." In this case, comic book fans. If the
publishers start publishing stuff that appeals to the mainstream,
they view it as - literally - an assault on their identity.
--
There's also the overhang of the Comics Code.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comics_Code_Authority

The original "Teen Titans" were a Code-approved strip, and
"no sex, please, we are Code-approved" was a thing. The 1980
New Teen Titans revival was also under the Code, at least until
the team was given a second title for the direct-sales market/
comics shops, which did not get submitted for code approval until
the story was reprinted in the less expensive format a year later.

https://www.comics.org/issue/38955/cover/4/ Aug 1984's
"The New Teen Titans" #1

https://www.comics.org/issue/40734/cover/4/ Dec 1985's
"Tales of the New Teen Titans" #60

Anything the Code objected to could be edited for the repeat,
such as unwed motherhood or homosexuality, though I don't
remember any such contemporary controversy. Misty Knight
being groomed by a lesbian vampiress in the non-Code, black
& white magazine BIZARRE ADVENTURES #25? (In the
"Daughters of the Dragon" strip.) Sure.

http://clarmindcontrol.blogspot.com/search/label/misty%20knight

https://www.comics.org/issue/35185/cover/4/

When, at first, DC started releasing non-Code-approved books, they
were reticent to have characters who normally appeared in Code-vetted
books show up in the new titles. They didn't want Moms and Dads
catching Junior and Missy reading anything without The Seal. MAD
magazine published for years without the Code, because it wasn't
racked with the 4-color comics aimed at the very young (Disney books
and other "funny animal" stuff) or the toned-down post-Code superheroes,
westerns, war and love comics.

I suspect if "Mandy" was connected to a Titan, and stood on her own,
much as the Vertigo line did (the imprint of Gaiman's SANDMAN) it
would be getting much less flack.

--
Kevin R
James Nicoll
2021-08-21 03:59:10 UTC
Reply
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Post by Kevrob
Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
Post by Quadibloc
I can't sympathize with their mentality. Of course one could hardly
imagine a comic book less calculated to appeal to fanboys as
this one, but what's wrong with DC attempting to broaden its
readership by also publishing comics that appeal to other
demographics?
It's a very weird sort of elitism. You see it among Linux types, too,
though not as much in recent years.
You've got a small, socially isolated group of outsiders whose self-
image starts and ends with being "wierd" and "different" and thus
"better" than "normal people." In this case, comic book fans. If the
publishers start publishing stuff that appeals to the mainstream,
they view it as - literally - an assault on their identity.
--
There's also the overhang of the Comics Code.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comics_Code_Authority
The original "Teen Titans" were a Code-approved strip, and
"no sex, please, we are Code-approved" was a thing. The 1980
New Teen Titans revival was also under the Code, at least until
the team was given a second title for the direct-sales market/
comics shops, which did not get submitted for code approval until
the story was reprinted in the less expensive format a year later.
https://www.comics.org/issue/38955/cover/4/ Aug 1984's
"The New Teen Titans" #1
https://www.comics.org/issue/40734/cover/4/ Dec 1985's
"Tales of the New Teen Titans" #60
Anything the Code objected to could be edited for the repeat,
such as unwed motherhood or homosexuality, though I don't
remember any such contemporary controversy. Misty Knight
being groomed by a lesbian vampiress in the non-Code, black
& white magazine BIZARRE ADVENTURES #25? (In the
"Daughters of the Dragon" strip.) Sure.
http://clarmindcontrol.blogspot.com/search/label/misty%20knight
https://www.comics.org/issue/35185/cover/4/
When, at first, DC started releasing non-Code-approved books, they
were reticent to have characters who normally appeared in Code-vetted
books show up in the new titles. They didn't want Moms and Dads
catching Junior and Missy reading anything without The Seal. MAD
magazine published for years without the Code, because it wasn't
racked with the 4-color comics aimed at the very young (Disney books
and other "funny animal" stuff) or the toned-down post-Code superheroes,
westerns, war and love comics.
I suspect if "Mandy" was connected to a Titan, and stood on her own,
much as the Vertigo line did (the imprint of Gaiman's SANDMAN) it
would be getting much less flack.
She is connected to a Titan, though. She's just not the imaginary child
of two made up characters the fanboys prefer.

Still, lots of story potential in "chip on shoulder, super powers include
Poor Life Choices*."

I just had the most horrible thought about who Mandy's dad is. Someone
Kory could plausibly meet, so either a Titan (except it doesn't seem to
be one) or someone Titan-adjacent. Someone Kory really, really does not
want to ever be publicly associated with.

Is Mandy _Terry Long's_ love child?


* I gather people think her superhero costume is bad. Well, have they
seen what Kitty Pryde used to wear?
--
My reviews can be found at http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/
My tor pieces at https://www.tor.com/author/james-davis-nicoll/
My Dreamwidth at https://james-davis-nicoll.dreamwidth.org/
My patreon is at https://www.patreon.com/jamesdnicoll
Kevrob
2021-08-21 04:51:29 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by James Nicoll
Post by Kevrob
Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
Post by Quadibloc
I can't sympathize with their mentality. Of course one could hardly
imagine a comic book less calculated to appeal to fanboys as
this one, but what's wrong with DC attempting to broaden its
readership by also publishing comics that appeal to other
demographics?
It's a very weird sort of elitism. You see it among Linux types, too,
though not as much in recent years.
You've got a small, socially isolated group of outsiders whose self-
image starts and ends with being "wierd" and "different" and thus
"better" than "normal people." In this case, comic book fans. If the
publishers start publishing stuff that appeals to the mainstream,
they view it as - literally - an assault on their identity.
--
There's also the overhang of the Comics Code.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comics_Code_Authority
The original "Teen Titans" were a Code-approved strip, and
"no sex, please, we are Code-approved" was a thing. The 1980
New Teen Titans revival was also under the Code, at least until
the team was given a second title for the direct-sales market/
comics shops, which did not get submitted for code approval until
the story was reprinted in the less expensive format a year later.
https://www.comics.org/issue/38955/cover/4/ Aug 1984's
"The New Teen Titans" #1
https://www.comics.org/issue/40734/cover/4/ Dec 1985's
"Tales of the New Teen Titans" #60
Anything the Code objected to could be edited for the repeat,
such as unwed motherhood or homosexuality, though I don't
remember any such contemporary controversy. Misty Knight
being groomed by a lesbian vampiress in the non-Code, black
& white magazine BIZARRE ADVENTURES #25? (In the
"Daughters of the Dragon" strip.) Sure.
http://clarmindcontrol.blogspot.com/search/label/misty%20knight
https://www.comics.org/issue/35185/cover/4/
When, at first, DC started releasing non-Code-approved books, they
were reticent to have characters who normally appeared in Code-vetted
books show up in the new titles. They didn't want Moms and Dads
catching Junior and Missy reading anything without The Seal. MAD
magazine published for years without the Code, because it wasn't
racked with the 4-color comics aimed at the very young (Disney books
and other "funny animal" stuff) or the toned-down post-Code superheroes,
westerns, war and love comics.
I suspect if "Mandy" was connected to a Titan, and stood on her own,
much as the Vertigo line did (the imprint of Gaiman's SANDMAN) it
would be getting much less flack.
She is connected to a Titan, though. She's just not the imaginary child
of two made up characters the fanboys prefer.
Oops. I meant to write "wasn't connected." Apologies.

However, even Gaiman's "Sandman" was connected to the old
ADVENTURE COMICS character, though Dream and Wesley Dodds
weren't relatives. SANDMAN MYSTERY THEATRE was fine series,
BTW.
Post by James Nicoll
Still, lots of story potential in "chip on shoulder, super powers include
Poor Life Choices*."
I just had the most horrible thought about who Mandy's dad is. Someone
Kory could plausibly meet, so either a Titan (except it doesn't seem to
be one) or someone Titan-adjacent. Someone Kory really, really does not
want to ever be publicly associated with.
Is Mandy _Terry Long's_ love child?
* I gather people think her superhero costume is bad. Well, have they
seen what Kitty Pryde used to wear?
--
--
Kevin R
Magewolf
2021-08-21 20:16:29 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by James Nicoll
Post by Kevrob
Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
Post by Quadibloc
I can't sympathize with their mentality. Of course one could hardly
imagine a comic book less calculated to appeal to fanboys as this
one, but what's wrong with DC attempting to broaden its readership
by also publishing comics that appeal to other demographics?
It's a very weird sort of elitism. You see it among Linux types, too,
though not as much in recent years.
You've got a small, socially isolated group of outsiders whose self-
image starts and ends with being "wierd" and "different" and thus
"better" than "normal people." In this case, comic book fans. If the
publishers start publishing stuff that appeals to the mainstream, they
view it as - literally - an assault on their identity.
--
There's also the overhang of the Comics Code.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comics_Code_Authority
The original "Teen Titans" were a Code-approved strip, and "no sex,
please, we are Code-approved" was a thing. The 1980 New Teen Titans
revival was also under the Code, at least until the team was given a
second title for the direct-sales market/
comics shops, which did not get submitted for code approval until the
story was reprinted in the less expensive format a year later.
https://www.comics.org/issue/38955/cover/4/ Aug 1984's "The New Teen
Titans" #1
https://www.comics.org/issue/40734/cover/4/ Dec 1985's "Tales of the New
Teen Titans" #60
Anything the Code objected to could be edited for the repeat,
such as unwed motherhood or homosexuality, though I don't remember any
such contemporary controversy. Misty Knight being groomed by a lesbian
vampiress in the non-Code, black & white magazine BIZARRE ADVENTURES
#25? (In the "Daughters of the Dragon" strip.) Sure.
http://clarmindcontrol.blogspot.com/search/label/misty%20knight
https://www.comics.org/issue/35185/cover/4/
When, at first, DC started releasing non-Code-approved books, they were
reticent to have characters who normally appeared in Code-vetted books
show up in the new titles. They didn't want Moms and Dads catching
Junior and Missy reading anything without The Seal. MAD magazine
published for years without the Code, because it wasn't racked with the
4-color comics aimed at the very young (Disney books and other "funny
animal" stuff) or the toned-down post-Code superheroes,
westerns, war and love comics.
I suspect if "Mandy" was connected to a Titan, and stood on her own,
much as the Vertigo line did (the imprint of Gaiman's SANDMAN) it would
be getting much less flack.
She is connected to a Titan, though. She's just not the imaginary child
of two made up characters the fanboys prefer.
Still, lots of story potential in "chip on shoulder, super powers
include Poor Life Choices*."
I just had the most horrible thought about who Mandy's dad is. Someone
Kory could plausibly meet, so either a Titan (except it doesn't seem to
be one) or someone Titan-adjacent. Someone Kory really, really does not
want to ever be publicly associated with.
Is Mandy _Terry Long's_ love child?
* I gather people think her superhero costume is bad. Well, have they
seen what Kitty Pryde used to wear?
The most popular guess based on appearance and personality is The
Penguin.
Quadibloc
2021-08-23 07:29:21 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by James Nicoll
I just had the most horrible thought about who Mandy's dad is. Someone
Kory could plausibly meet, so either a Titan (except it doesn't seem to
be one) or someone Titan-adjacent. Someone Kory really, really does not
want to ever be publicly associated with.
I thought there was only one possibility - Nightwing, formerly Robin,
secret identity Dick Grayson, ward of Bruce Wayne (Batman).

Even if "the most popular guess, based on appearance and personality"
might be, as another reply put it, The Penguin.

John Savard
Robert Carnegie
2021-08-23 12:58:15 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Quadibloc
Post by James Nicoll
I just had the most horrible thought about who Mandy's dad is. Someone
Kory could plausibly meet, so either a Titan (except it doesn't seem to
be one) or someone Titan-adjacent. Someone Kory really, really does not
want to ever be publicly associated with.
I thought there was only one possibility - Nightwing, formerly Robin,
secret identity Dick Grayson, ward of Bruce Wayne (Batman).
Formerly, yes. Some recent, controversial, canonical stories
have portrayed Starfire as I'm going to say slutty and we can
move on. Except to note that Dick gets around, also.
But Dick is only slightly slutty.

But also I thought that Dick and Kory were openly associated.
So I don't think that any answer makes sense, but I'll bid
Damian Wayne (Robin, Bruce Wayne's actual son with
Ra's al Ghul's daughter and a genetic twiddling laboratory)
for the height and the personality.
James Nicoll
2021-08-23 13:46:51 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by Quadibloc
Post by James Nicoll
I just had the most horrible thought about who Mandy's dad is. Someone
Kory could plausibly meet, so either a Titan (except it doesn't seem to
be one) or someone Titan-adjacent. Someone Kory really, really does not
want to ever be publicly associated with.
I thought there was only one possibility - Nightwing, formerly Robin,
secret identity Dick Grayson, ward of Bruce Wayne (Batman).
Formerly, yes. Some recent, controversial, canonical stories
have portrayed Starfire as I'm going to say slutty and we can
move on. Except to note that Dick gets around, also.
But Dick is only slightly slutty.
But also I thought that Dick and Kory were openly associated.
So I don't think that any answer makes sense, but I'll bid
Damian Wayne (Robin, Bruce Wayne's actual son with
Ra's al Ghul's daughter and a genetic twiddling laboratory)
for the height and the personality.
Am I the only one who spends time around teenagers here? Crankiness
and snark are not unheard of.
--
My reviews can be found at http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/
My tor pieces at https://www.tor.com/author/james-davis-nicoll/
My Dreamwidth at https://james-davis-nicoll.dreamwidth.org/
My patreon is at https://www.patreon.com/jamesdnicoll
Ted Nolan <tednolan>
2021-08-23 13:57:01 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by Quadibloc
Post by James Nicoll
I just had the most horrible thought about who Mandy's dad is. Someone
Kory could plausibly meet, so either a Titan (except it doesn't seem to
be one) or someone Titan-adjacent. Someone Kory really, really does not
want to ever be publicly associated with.
I thought there was only one possibility - Nightwing, formerly Robin,
secret identity Dick Grayson, ward of Bruce Wayne (Batman).
Formerly, yes. Some recent, controversial, canonical stories
have portrayed Starfire as I'm going to say slutty and we can
move on. Except to note that Dick gets around, also.
But Dick is only slightly slutty.
She's polyamorous. I know, potato-potatoe, but Tamarans just don't
take sex all that seriously, though many other things they do. They're
a bit Liadenesque.
--
columbiaclosings.com
What's not in Columbia anymore..
James Nicoll
2021-08-23 14:11:22 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Robert Carnegie
Formerly, yes. Some recent, controversial, canonical stories
Canonical until the next continuity-wide reboot, you mean.

'This is an IMAGINARY STORY ... Aren't They All?'
--
My reviews can be found at http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/
My tor pieces at https://www.tor.com/author/james-davis-nicoll/
My Dreamwidth at https://james-davis-nicoll.dreamwidth.org/
My patreon is at https://www.patreon.com/jamesdnicoll
Quadibloc
2021-08-24 03:09:46 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by James Nicoll
'This is an IMAGINARY STORY ... Aren't They All?'
From, of course, the famous story where everything went wrong for Superman -
so that he finally had to kill a menacing version of Mr. Myztplk... after which
he used Gold K on himself and hung up his cape for good.

John Savard
Kevrob
2021-08-27 04:15:46 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Quadibloc
Post by James Nicoll
'This is an IMAGINARY STORY ... Aren't They All?'
From, of course, the famous story where everything went wrong for Superman -
so that he finally had to kill a menacing version of Mr. Myztplk... after which
he used Gold K on himself and hung up his cape for good.
https://www.comics.org/issue/41810/cover/4/

https://www.comics.org/issue/41810/cover/4/

"I am not Starfire!
I used to be, then they
changed it to "Red Star."

https://www.comics.org/issue/22384/cover/4/
--
Kevin R
Quadibloc
2021-10-02 15:41:44 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Speaking of Superman...

I thought I ran across a page asking what was wrong with Superman,
claiming that for the last 20 years, every re-adjusted new version of
Superman was an anti-hero, instead of the very positive Boy Scout
type of hero he used to be.

But when I looked for it, I couldn't find it again.

I did find, though, that in issue 900...

Superman saves a bunch of anti-government demonstrators in Iran,
but the reaction to his action, pushing the world to the brink of war,
prompts him to renounce his American citizenship!

I can see that this will be viewed as shocking by many.

But some of the denunciations of this, even on the floor of Congress,
means that some people are taking comic books 'way too seriously.

They are not as relevant now as they once were; we're not living in the
'sixties were a wall of 12 cent comics was a feature of every drug store.

And, anyways, if they haven't noticed...

A while back, they had a storyline which... someone could have taken
as equating G. W. Bush with Lex Luthor. Who knows what they must
think of Donald Trump?

And, of course, Siegel and Shuster were (gasp!) Jewish. What can you
expect from a couple of rootless cosmopolites but a comic espousing
left-wing liberal views (I mean, look at all the public-service pages the
comic had back in the 'sixties...).

I can definitely understand disagreeing with what passes for politically-correct
liberalism, but as I've noted, it appears to me that the Republican Party
in particular, and even conservatism in general, have gone right off the
deep end of late.

Now, I may be over-reacting. If voter suppression had been a feature of
every American election prior to 2020, why would a return to business as
usual in 2024 be the end of the world? My answer has been: because it
could result in Trump getting back in, and _that_ could concievably result
in him handing over the keys of America's nuclear arsenal to Vladimir
Putin.

Hey, maybe you might get lucky, and instead of him pulling that off, the
result would be a military coup. But could you survive the shame of all
the banana republics laughing at you?

But perhaps my view of Trump is jaundiced and thus in error. Perhaps
America would muddle through another four years of Trump just fine,
if you ignore a few hundred thousand excess COVID-19 deaths and
various other consequences.

The trouble is that it's basically impossible for me to understand it when
people fail to take their survival seriously. Of course robust political debate
is normal, but I'd expect near-universal agreement on dealing with both
COVID-19 and global warming in accordance with the best available
scientific knowledge. (Of course, I'm biased, in that I think that any sane
person would give the same credence to "what science says" as he or she
would to the evidence of his or her own senses. Somehow, this is no longer
the norm.)

John Savard
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