Discussion:
_Podkayne of Mars_ by Robert A. Heinlein
(too old to reply)
Lynn McGuire
2018-09-09 21:18:27 UTC
Permalink
_Podkayne of Mars_ by Robert A. Heinlein
https://www.amazon.com/Podkayne-Mars-Robert-Heinlein/dp/1612422624/

This is a standalone book by Heinlein that is not one of his juveniles.
I would call it young adult space opera. I read the POD (print on
demand) trade paperback version with original ending from Heinlein.
Apparently the first publisher made Heinlein write a less fatal ending.

What a weird book ! I do not remember what the first published ending
was like but it may have been better. The original ending is realistic
but a real downer. A serious downer.

I did have one of the original MMPBs but it was lost in the Great Flood
of '89 when our house was flooded.

My rating: 3 out of 5 stars
Amazon rating: 4.0 out of 5 stars (214 reviews)

Lynn
Dan Swartzendruber
2018-09-10 02:57:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lynn McGuire
_Podkayne of Mars_ by Robert A. Heinlein
https://www.amazon.com/Podkayne-Mars-Robert-Heinlein/dp/1612422624/
This is a standalone book by Heinlein that is not one of his juveniles.
I would call it young adult space opera. I read the POD (print on
demand) trade paperback version with original ending from Heinlein.
Apparently the first publisher made Heinlein write a less fatal ending.
What a weird book ! I do not remember what the first published ending
was like but it may have been better. The original ending is realistic
but a real downer. A serious downer.
I did have one of the original MMPBs but it was lost in the Great Flood
of '89 when our house was flooded.
My rating: 3 out of 5 stars
Amazon rating: 4.0 out of 5 stars (214 reviews)
I'd have to agree. There is enough depressing sh*t in real life, I
don't need to read it too :(
Dorothy J Heydt
2018-09-10 03:29:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dan Swartzendruber
Post by Lynn McGuire
_Podkayne of Mars_ by Robert A. Heinlein
https://www.amazon.com/Podkayne-Mars-Robert-Heinlein/dp/1612422624/
This is a standalone book by Heinlein that is not one of his juveniles.
I would call it young adult space opera. I read the POD (print on
demand) trade paperback version with original ending from Heinlein.
Apparently the first publisher made Heinlein write a less fatal ending.
What a weird book ! I do not remember what the first published ending
was like but it may have been better. The original ending is realistic
but a real downer. A serious downer.
I did have one of the original MMPBs but it was lost in the Great Flood
of '89 when our house was flooded.
My rating: 3 out of 5 stars
Amazon rating: 4.0 out of 5 stars (214 reviews)
I'd have to agree. There is enough depressing sh*t in real life, I
don't need to read it too :(
Heinlein, like many authors before and since, was trying to prove
a point.

His point was that women should concentrate on rearing their
children, and not do distracting things like being scientists, or
in fact doing anything besides being mothers. Hence the fate of
Podkayne and the continuing jerkiness of her brother whose name
escapes me at the moment: they are presented as an object lesson.

We have to remember that Heinlein was born in 1907.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/
Carl Fink
2018-09-10 12:55:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
His point was that women should concentrate on rearing their
children, and not do distracting things like being scientists, or
in fact doing anything besides being mothers. Hence the fate of
Podkayne and the continuing jerkiness of her brother whose name
escapes me at the moment: they are presented as an object lesson.
I must disagree. Clark is actually showing signs of being less of a jerk at
the end.

What, nobody here is offended that our mixed-race heroine has a literal
"Uncle Tom"?
--
Carl Fink ***@nitpicking.com

Read John Grant's book, Corrupted Science: http://a.co/9UsUoGu
Dedicated to ... Carl Fink!
Lynn McGuire
2018-09-10 17:00:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Carl Fink
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
His point was that women should concentrate on rearing their
children, and not do distracting things like being scientists, or
in fact doing anything besides being mothers. Hence the fate of
Podkayne and the continuing jerkiness of her brother whose name
escapes me at the moment: they are presented as an object lesson.
I must disagree. Clark is actually showing signs of being less of a jerk at
the end.
What, nobody here is offended that our mixed-race heroine has a literal
"Uncle Tom"?
Oh gosh, I missed that. Heinlein was just a little subtle, wasn't he.

Lynn
Greg Goss
2018-09-11 02:54:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by Carl Fink
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
His point was that women should concentrate on rearing their
children, and not do distracting things like being scientists, or
in fact doing anything besides being mothers. Hence the fate of
Podkayne and the continuing jerkiness of her brother whose name
escapes me at the moment: they are presented as an object lesson.
I must disagree. Clark is actually showing signs of being less of a jerk at
the end.
What, nobody here is offended that our mixed-race heroine has a literal
"Uncle Tom"?
Oh gosh, I missed that. Heinlein was just a little subtle, wasn't he.
I've never noticed the races of Heinlein's characters. I never
noticed that she was mixed-race,
--
We are geeks. Resistance is voltage over current.

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Dorothy J Heydt
2018-09-10 17:00:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Carl Fink
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
His point was that women should concentrate on rearing their
children, and not do distracting things like being scientists, or
in fact doing anything besides being mothers. Hence the fate of
Podkayne and the continuing jerkiness of her brother whose name
escapes me at the moment: they are presented as an object lesson.
I must disagree. Clark is actually showing signs of being less of a jerk at
the end.
After being painfully slapped upside the head by tragic
circumstances.
Post by Carl Fink
What, nobody here is offended that our mixed-race heroine has a literal
"Uncle Tom"?
It's what you don't know that will bite you. I had not noticed
that she was mixed-race. I must assume that Heinlein mentioned
it somewhere and it went in one eye and out the other.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/
James Nicoll
2018-09-10 17:34:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Carl Fink
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
His point was that women should concentrate on rearing their
children, and not do distracting things like being scientists, or
in fact doing anything besides being mothers. Hence the fate of
Podkayne and the continuing jerkiness of her brother whose name
escapes me at the moment: they are presented as an object lesson.
I must disagree. Clark is actually showing signs of being less of a jerk at
the end.
After being painfully slapped upside the head by tragic
circumstances.
Post by Carl Fink
What, nobody here is offended that our mixed-race heroine has a literal
"Uncle Tom"?
It's what you don't know that will bite you. I had not noticed
that she was mixed-race. I must assume that Heinlein mentioned
it somewhere and it went in one eye and out the other.
You probably also missed the reference to cannibalism.

"So I grinned back at him and started picking my teeth with a fingernail.
This is an even ruder gesture than you might think-and utterly private
between Uncle Tom and myself. We Maori have a very bloodthirsty history
and I won't even hint at what it is we are supposed to be picking out of
our teeth."
--
My reviews can be found at http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/
My Dreamwidth at https://james-davis-nicoll.dreamwidth.org/
My patreon is at https://www.patreon.com/jamesdnicoll
Dorothy J Heydt
2018-09-10 18:53:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by James Nicoll
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Carl Fink
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
His point was that women should concentrate on rearing their
children, and not do distracting things like being scientists, or
in fact doing anything besides being mothers. Hence the fate of
Podkayne and the continuing jerkiness of her brother whose name
escapes me at the moment: they are presented as an object lesson.
I must disagree. Clark is actually showing signs of being less of a jerk at
the end.
After being painfully slapped upside the head by tragic
circumstances.
Post by Carl Fink
What, nobody here is offended that our mixed-race heroine has a literal
"Uncle Tom"?
It's what you don't know that will bite you. I had not noticed
that she was mixed-race. I must assume that Heinlein mentioned
it somewhere and it went in one eye and out the other.
You probably also missed the reference to cannibalism.
"So I grinned back at him and started picking my teeth with a fingernail.
This is an even ruder gesture than you might think-and utterly private
between Uncle Tom and myself. We Maori have a very bloodthirsty history
and I won't even hint at what it is we are supposed to be picking out of
our teeth."
That, I vaguely recall.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/
Lynn McGuire
2018-09-10 18:41:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Carl Fink
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
His point was that women should concentrate on rearing their
children, and not do distracting things like being scientists, or
in fact doing anything besides being mothers. Hence the fate of
Podkayne and the continuing jerkiness of her brother whose name
escapes me at the moment: they are presented as an object lesson.
I must disagree. Clark is actually showing signs of being less of a jerk at
the end.
After being painfully slapped upside the head by tragic
circumstances.
Post by Carl Fink
What, nobody here is offended that our mixed-race heroine has a literal
"Uncle Tom"?
It's what you don't know that will bite you. I had not noticed
that she was mixed-race. I must assume that Heinlein mentioned
it somewhere and it went in one eye and out the other.
Podkayne was mentioned to be blond haired and blue eyed several times,
like her mother. Her Uncle Tom (Dad's older brother ???) was mentioned
to be very dark and from a Caribbean nation (IIRC).

Lynn
James Nicoll
2018-09-10 18:52:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Carl Fink
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
His point was that women should concentrate on rearing their
children, and not do distracting things like being scientists, or
in fact doing anything besides being mothers. Hence the fate of
Podkayne and the continuing jerkiness of her brother whose name
escapes me at the moment: they are presented as an object lesson.
I must disagree. Clark is actually showing signs of being less of a jerk at
the end.
After being painfully slapped upside the head by tragic
circumstances.
Post by Carl Fink
What, nobody here is offended that our mixed-race heroine has a literal
"Uncle Tom"?
It's what you don't know that will bite you. I had not noticed
that she was mixed-race. I must assume that Heinlein mentioned
it somewhere and it went in one eye and out the other.
Podkayne was mentioned to be blond haired and blue eyed several times,
like her mother. Her Uncle Tom (Dad's older brother ???) was mentioned
to be very dark and from a Caribbean nation (IIRC).
Maori (Pacific, not Caribbean).
--
My reviews can be found at http://jamesdavisnicoll.com/
My Dreamwidth at https://james-davis-nicoll.dreamwidth.org/
My patreon is at https://www.patreon.com/jamesdnicoll
Lynn McGuire
2018-09-10 19:21:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by James Nicoll
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Carl Fink
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
His point was that women should concentrate on rearing their
children, and not do distracting things like being scientists, or
in fact doing anything besides being mothers. Hence the fate of
Podkayne and the continuing jerkiness of her brother whose name
escapes me at the moment: they are presented as an object lesson.
I must disagree. Clark is actually showing signs of being less of a jerk at
the end.
After being painfully slapped upside the head by tragic
circumstances.
Post by Carl Fink
What, nobody here is offended that our mixed-race heroine has a literal
"Uncle Tom"?
It's what you don't know that will bite you. I had not noticed
that she was mixed-race. I must assume that Heinlein mentioned
it somewhere and it went in one eye and out the other.
Podkayne was mentioned to be blond haired and blue eyed several times,
like her mother. Her Uncle Tom (Dad's older brother ???) was mentioned
to be very dark and from a Caribbean nation (IIRC).
Maori (Pacific, not Caribbean).
Gotchas, thanks.

Lynn
J. Clarke
2018-09-11 00:21:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Dan Swartzendruber
Post by Lynn McGuire
_Podkayne of Mars_ by Robert A. Heinlein
https://www.amazon.com/Podkayne-Mars-Robert-Heinlein/dp/1612422624/
This is a standalone book by Heinlein that is not one of his juveniles.
I would call it young adult space opera. I read the POD (print on
demand) trade paperback version with original ending from Heinlein.
Apparently the first publisher made Heinlein write a less fatal ending.
What a weird book ! I do not remember what the first published ending
was like but it may have been better. The original ending is realistic
but a real downer. A serious downer.
I did have one of the original MMPBs but it was lost in the Great Flood
of '89 when our house was flooded.
My rating: 3 out of 5 stars
Amazon rating: 4.0 out of 5 stars (214 reviews)
I'd have to agree. There is enough depressing sh*t in real life, I
don't need to read it too :(
Heinlein, like many authors before and since, was trying to prove
a point.
His point was that women should concentrate on rearing their
children, and not do distracting things like being scientists, or
in fact doing anything besides being mothers. Hence the fate of
Podkayne and the continuing jerkiness of her brother whose name
escapes me at the moment: they are presented as an object lesson.
We have to remember that Heinlein was born in 1907.
You might want to consider the characters of Hazel Meade, Carmencita
Ibanez, Carol Mshiyeni, and Helen Walker, none of whom came to grief
doing hair-raising things. Although Hazel and Helen did decide to get
married.
Dorothy J Heydt
2018-09-11 01:47:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by J. Clarke
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Dan Swartzendruber
Post by Lynn McGuire
_Podkayne of Mars_ by Robert A. Heinlein
https://www.amazon.com/Podkayne-Mars-Robert-Heinlein/dp/1612422624/
This is a standalone book by Heinlein that is not one of his juveniles.
I would call it young adult space opera. I read the POD (print on
demand) trade paperback version with original ending from Heinlein.
Apparently the first publisher made Heinlein write a less fatal ending.
What a weird book ! I do not remember what the first published ending
was like but it may have been better. The original ending is realistic
but a real downer. A serious downer.
I did have one of the original MMPBs but it was lost in the Great Flood
of '89 when our house was flooded.
My rating: 3 out of 5 stars
Amazon rating: 4.0 out of 5 stars (214 reviews)
I'd have to agree. There is enough depressing sh*t in real life, I
don't need to read it too :(
Heinlein, like many authors before and since, was trying to prove
a point.
His point was that women should concentrate on rearing their
children, and not do distracting things like being scientists, or
in fact doing anything besides being mothers. Hence the fate of
Podkayne and the continuing jerkiness of her brother whose name
escapes me at the moment: they are presented as an object lesson.
We have to remember that Heinlein was born in 1907.
You might want to consider the characters of Hazel Meade, Carmencita
Ibanez, Carol Mshiyeni, and Helen Walker, none of whom came to grief
doing hair-raising things. Although Hazel and Helen did decide to get
married.
I gave up attempting to read Heinlein after bouncing off
_Friday._ So I know Hazel Meade Stone chiefly from _The
Rolling Stones_.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/
J. Clarke
2018-09-11 02:36:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by J. Clarke
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Dan Swartzendruber
Post by Lynn McGuire
_Podkayne of Mars_ by Robert A. Heinlein
https://www.amazon.com/Podkayne-Mars-Robert-Heinlein/dp/1612422624/
This is a standalone book by Heinlein that is not one of his juveniles.
I would call it young adult space opera. I read the POD (print on
demand) trade paperback version with original ending from Heinlein.
Apparently the first publisher made Heinlein write a less fatal ending.
What a weird book ! I do not remember what the first published ending
was like but it may have been better. The original ending is realistic
but a real downer. A serious downer.
I did have one of the original MMPBs but it was lost in the Great Flood
of '89 when our house was flooded.
My rating: 3 out of 5 stars
Amazon rating: 4.0 out of 5 stars (214 reviews)
I'd have to agree. There is enough depressing sh*t in real life, I
don't need to read it too :(
Heinlein, like many authors before and since, was trying to prove
a point.
His point was that women should concentrate on rearing their
children, and not do distracting things like being scientists, or
in fact doing anything besides being mothers. Hence the fate of
Podkayne and the continuing jerkiness of her brother whose name
escapes me at the moment: they are presented as an object lesson.
We have to remember that Heinlein was born in 1907.
You might want to consider the characters of Hazel Meade, Carmencita
Ibanez, Carol Mshiyeni, and Helen Walker, none of whom came to grief
doing hair-raising things. Although Hazel and Helen did decide to get
married.
I gave up attempting to read Heinlein after bouncing off
_Friday._ So I know Hazel Meade Stone chiefly from _The
Rolling Stones_.
Try "The Moon is a Harsh Mistress", which is at the other end of her
life. She has a couple of other appearances.
Greg Goss
2018-09-11 02:58:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by J. Clarke
You might want to consider the characters of Hazel Meade, Carmencita
Ibanez, Carol Mshiyeni, and Helen Walker, none of whom came to grief
doing hair-raising things. Although Hazel and Helen did decide to get
married.
I gave up attempting to read Heinlein after bouncing off
_Friday._ So I know Hazel Meade Stone chiefly from _The
Rolling Stones_.
She had a bit part in The Moon is a Harsh Mistress.
--
We are geeks. Resistance is voltage over current.

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Ted Nolan <tednolan>
2018-09-11 02:28:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by J. Clarke
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Dan Swartzendruber
Post by Lynn McGuire
_Podkayne of Mars_ by Robert A. Heinlein
https://www.amazon.com/Podkayne-Mars-Robert-Heinlein/dp/1612422624/
This is a standalone book by Heinlein that is not one of his juveniles.
I would call it young adult space opera. I read the POD (print on
demand) trade paperback version with original ending from Heinlein.
Apparently the first publisher made Heinlein write a less fatal ending.
What a weird book ! I do not remember what the first published ending
was like but it may have been better. The original ending is realistic
but a real downer. A serious downer.
I did have one of the original MMPBs but it was lost in the Great Flood
of '89 when our house was flooded.
My rating: 3 out of 5 stars
Amazon rating: 4.0 out of 5 stars (214 reviews)
I'd have to agree. There is enough depressing sh*t in real life, I
don't need to read it too :(
Heinlein, like many authors before and since, was trying to prove
a point.
His point was that women should concentrate on rearing their
children, and not do distracting things like being scientists, or
in fact doing anything besides being mothers. Hence the fate of
Podkayne and the continuing jerkiness of her brother whose name
escapes me at the moment: they are presented as an object lesson.
We have to remember that Heinlein was born in 1907.
You might want to consider the characters of Hazel Meade, Carmencita
Ibanez, Carol Mshiyeni, and Helen Walker, none of whom came to grief
doing hair-raising things. Although Hazel and Helen did decide to get
married.
And you say Heinlein wasn't forward thinking!
--
------
columbiaclosings.com
What's not in Columbia anymore..
Greg Goss
2018-09-13 14:40:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Post by J. Clarke
You might want to consider the characters of Hazel Meade, Carmencita
Ibanez, Carol Mshiyeni, and Helen Walker, none of whom came to grief
doing hair-raising things. Although Hazel and Helen did decide to get
married.
And you say Heinlein wasn't forward thinking!
I realize you're joking about a three way lesbian marriage, but he
indeed goes into describing exotic marriage arrangements in TMIAHM.
Indeed Hazel marries "into the Stone gang" if I recall right, implying
marrying all of 'em, rather than one of them that would be implied in
an earth marriage.
--
We are geeks. Resistance is voltage over current.
Greg Goss
2018-09-11 02:57:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by J. Clarke
You might want to consider the characters of Hazel Meade, Carmencita
Ibanez, Carol Mshiyeni, and Helen Walker, none of whom came to grief
doing hair-raising things. Although Hazel and Helen did decide to get
married.
Didn't early teen Hazel (before marrying into the Stones) go airborne
into a squad of Earth marines at one point? I would consider that to
be at least slightly hair-raising.
--
We are geeks. Resistance is voltage over current.

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J. Clarke
2018-09-12 02:16:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Greg Goss
Post by J. Clarke
You might want to consider the characters of Hazel Meade, Carmencita
Ibanez, Carol Mshiyeni, and Helen Walker, none of whom came to grief
doing hair-raising things. Although Hazel and Helen did decide to get
married.
Didn't early teen Hazel (before marrying into the Stones) go airborne
into a squad of Earth marines at one point? I would consider that to
be at least slightly hair-raising.
I see the point of confusion--I was suggesting that they did
hair-raising things without coming to grief, as counterpoint to the
suggestion that Heinlein women who do anything other than stay home
and tend the kids come to a bad end.
a425couple
2018-09-13 14:44:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Greg Goss
Post by J. Clarke
You might want to consider the characters of Hazel Meade, Carmencita
Ibanez, Carol Mshiyeni, and Helen Walker, none of whom came to grief
doing hair-raising things. Although Hazel and Helen did decide to get
married.
Didn't early teen Hazel (before marrying into the Stones) go airborne
into a squad of Earth marines at one point? I would consider that to
be at least slightly hair-raising.
This fills out her role in 3 books:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hazel_Stone
Lynn McGuire
2018-09-13 20:42:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by a425couple
Post by Greg Goss
Post by J. Clarke
You might want to consider the characters of Hazel Meade, Carmencita
Ibanez, Carol Mshiyeni, and Helen Walker, none of whom came to grief
doing hair-raising things.  Although Hazel and Helen did decide to get
married.
Didn't early teen Hazel (before marrying into the Stones) go airborne
into a squad of Earth marines at one point?  I would consider that to
be at least slightly hair-raising.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hazel_Stone
Wikipedia is awesome !

Lynn

Joy Beeson
2018-09-11 00:04:44 UTC
Permalink
On Sun, 9 Sep 2018 16:18:27 -0500, Lynn McGuire
Post by Lynn McGuire
What a weird book ! I do not remember what the first published ending
was like but it may have been better. The original ending is realistic
but a real downer. A serious downer.
I read an edition with both endings in it. The editor was right to
ask for an ending in which Podkane lived, but he didn't get one. He
got an ending in which Podkane died, and the writer lied about it.
--
Joy Beeson
joy beeson at comcast dot net
http://wlweather.net/PAGEJOY/


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