Discussion:
Refugees in SF
(too old to reply)
Brian M. Scott
2015-10-22 22:10:17 UTC
Permalink
A nice question was posted today in de.rec.sf.misc. In my
What is there in the way of SF in which refugees play a
large role? Off the top of my head only Cherryh occurs
to me, in _Downbelow Station_ and _Fires of Azeroth_.
Anything else?
Anyone care to take a crack at it?

Brian
--
It was the neap tide, when the baga venture out of their
holes to root for sandtatties. The waves whispered
rhythmically over the packed sand: haggisss, haggisss,
haggisss.
Ted Nolan <tednolan>
2015-10-22 22:30:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Brian M. Scott
A nice question was posted today in de.rec.sf.misc. In my
What is there in the way of SF in which refugees play a
large role? Off the top of my head only Cherryh occurs
to me, in _Downbelow Station_ and _Fires of Azeroth_.
Anything else?
Anyone care to take a crack at it?
Brian
--
Brunner's Zarathustra super-nova books, in particular _Polymath_.

_Crystal Dragon_ Lee & Miller

_When Worlds Collide_ Wylie & Balmer

_The Stars Are Ours_ Norton
--
------
columbiaclosings.com
What's not in Columbia anymore..
Mike M
2015-10-22 22:31:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Brian M. Scott
A nice question was posted today in de.rec.sf.misc. In my
What is there in the way of SF in which refugees play a
large role? Off the top of my head only Cherryh occurs
to me, in _Downbelow Station_ and _Fires of Azeroth_.
Anything else?
Anyone care to take a crack at it?
Brian
In the later Dune books the Bene Gesserit are persecuted and the minds of a
whole chapter house of Reverend Mothers hides in the form of a young Jewish
girl. Come to think of it there's a case that Jessica and Paul Atreides are
refugees.

Niven's puppeteers flee the explosion at the centre of the Galaxy but as
they take their planets with them, their claims to be refugees are a bit
suspect.

In fantasy, in the Narnia books some of the children are evacuees - would
that count?
And of course the Shire gets inundated with refugees from the Ringwar ...
--
"In 900 years of time and space, I've never met anyone who wasn't
important."
Dorothy J Heydt
2015-10-23 00:50:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mike M
Post by Brian M. Scott
A nice question was posted today in de.rec.sf.misc. In my
What is there in the way of SF in which refugees play a
large role? Off the top of my head only Cherryh occurs
to me, in _Downbelow Station_ and _Fires of Azeroth_.
Anything else?
Anyone care to take a crack at it?
Brian
In the later Dune books the Bene Gesserit are persecuted and the minds of a
whole chapter house of Reverend Mothers hides in the form of a young Jewish
girl. Come to think of it there's a case that Jessica and Paul Atreides are
refugees.
Niven's puppeteers flee the explosion at the centre of the Galaxy but as
they take their planets with them, their claims to be refugees are a bit
suspect.
In fantasy, in the Narnia books some of the children are evacuees - would
that count?
And of course the Shire gets inundated with refugees from the Ringwar ...
More specifically, Bree does, being right at the crossroads of
the Greenway and the Great Road.

The Shire gets invaded by brigands who work for Sharkey.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
Moriarty
2015-10-24 02:35:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mike M
Post by Brian M. Scott
A nice question was posted today in de.rec.sf.misc. In my
What is there in the way of SF in which refugees play a
large role? Off the top of my head only Cherryh occurs
to me, in _Downbelow Station_ and _Fires of Azeroth_.
Anything else?
Anyone care to take a crack at it?
Brian
In the later Dune books the Bene Gesserit are persecuted and the minds of a
whole chapter house of Reverend Mothers hides in the form of a young Jewish
girl. Come to think of it there's a case that Jessica and Paul Atreides are
refugees.
_God Emperor of Dune_ has Leto deliberately creating refugees to start the Scattering.

Alistair Reynolds _Absolution Gap_ focuses on a group of refugees created by events in the earlier _Redemption Ark_.

-Moriarty
Don Bruder
2015-10-24 02:48:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by Moriarty
Post by Mike M
Post by Brian M. Scott
A nice question was posted today in de.rec.sf.misc. In my
What is there in the way of SF in which refugees play a
large role? Off the top of my head only Cherryh occurs
to me, in _Downbelow Station_ and _Fires of Azeroth_.
Anything else?
Anyone care to take a crack at it?
Brian
In the later Dune books the Bene Gesserit are persecuted and the minds of a
whole chapter house of Reverend Mothers hides in the form of a young Jewish
girl. Come to think of it there's a case that Jessica and Paul Atreides are
refugees.
_God Emperor of Dune_ has Leto deliberately creating refugees to start the Scattering.
Wasn't it said in at least one of the *FRANK HERBERT* Dune books (I
don't count the cruft that's come along after his death as being canon,
regardless of who gets credited/blamed for it) that "Fremen" = "refugee
jews"? Or was it only laid out so clearly that it was the only logical
conclusion to draw, without actually being explicitly stated?
Post by Moriarty
Alistair Reynolds _Absolution Gap_ focuses on a group of refugees created by
events in the earlier _Redemption Ark_.
-Moriarty
--
Security provided by Mssrs Smith and/or Wesson. Brought to you by the letter Q
J. Clarke
2015-10-24 09:36:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Don Bruder
Post by Moriarty
Post by Mike M
Post by Brian M. Scott
A nice question was posted today in de.rec.sf.misc. In my
What is there in the way of SF in which refugees play a
large role? Off the top of my head only Cherryh occurs
to me, in _Downbelow Station_ and _Fires of Azeroth_.
Anything else?
Anyone care to take a crack at it?
Brian
In the later Dune books the Bene Gesserit are persecuted and the minds of a
whole chapter house of Reverend Mothers hides in the form of a young Jewish
girl. Come to think of it there's a case that Jessica and Paul Atreides are
refugees.
_God Emperor of Dune_ has Leto deliberately creating refugees to start the Scattering.
Wasn't it said in at least one of the *FRANK HERBERT* Dune books (I
don't count the cruft that's come along after his death as being canon,
regardless of who gets credited/blamed for it) that "Fremen" = "refugee
jews"? Or was it only laid out so clearly that it was the only logical
conclusion to draw, without actually being explicitly stated?
That would add a new dimension to it since they were described as
"Zensunni wanderers" at some point. Sunni Jews wouild fit in with his
mixing of religions though.
Brian M. Scott
2015-10-24 19:46:15 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 23 Oct 2015 19:48:59 -0700, Don Bruder
<***@sonic.net> wrote
in<news:n0ereq$hlt$***@dont-email.me> in rec.arts.sf.written:

[...]
Post by Don Bruder
Wasn't it said in at least one of the *FRANK HERBERT*
Dune books (I don't count the cruft that's come along
after his death as being canon, regardless of who gets
credited/blamed for it) that "Fremen" = "refugee jews"?
Or was it only laid out so clearly that it was the only
logical conclusion to draw, without actually being
explicitly stated?
It’s not true. In _Chapterhouse: Dune_ we learn that there
are Jewish communities scattered across the galaxy, and
that their Judaism differs little from that of our day.
The Fremen were the Zensunni Wanderers: their religion was
a syncretism of Zen Buddhism and Sunni Islam.

Brian
--
It was the neap tide, when the baga venture out of their
holes to root for sandtatties. The waves whispered
rhythmically over the packed sand: haggisss, haggisss,
haggisss.
John Dallman
2015-10-22 22:55:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Brian M. Scott
What is there in the way of SF in which refugees play a
large role? Off the top of my head only Cherryh occurs
to me, in _Downbelow Station_ and _Fires of Azeroth_.
Anything else?
Anyone care to take a crack at it?
_The Birth of the People's Republic of Antarctica_, John Calvin Bachelor.
_The Scar_, China Miéville.

John
Ahasuerus
2015-10-22 23:05:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Brian M. Scott
A nice question was posted today in de.rec.sf.misc. In my
What is there in the way of SF in which refugees play a
large role? Off the top of my head only Cherryh occurs
to me, in _Downbelow Station_ and _Fires of Azeroth_.
Anything else?
Anyone care to take a crack at it?
Refugee evacuation and ... related issues play an important role
in volumes 2 and 3 of Taylor Anderson's _Destroyermen_.
David DeLaney
2015-10-23 06:10:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ahasuerus
Post by Brian M. Scott
What is there in the way of SF in which refugees play a
large role? Off the top of my head only Cherryh occurs
to me, in _Downbelow Station_ and _Fires of Azeroth_.
Anything else?
Anyone care to take a crack at it?
Refugee evacuation and ... related issues play an important role
in volumes 2 and 3 of Taylor Anderson's _Destroyermen_.
And are part of the backstory in Saunders' Commonweal books. So far.

Dave, will plug for brain food
--
\/David DeLaney posting thru EarthLink - "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://gatekeeper.vic.com/~dbd/ -net.legends/Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.
Don Kuenz
2015-10-22 23:47:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Brian M. Scott
A nice question was posted today in de.rec.sf.misc. In my
What is there in the way of SF in which refugees play a
large role? Off the top of my head only Cherryh occurs
to me, in _Downbelow Station_ and _Fires of Azeroth_.
Anything else?
Anyone care to take a crack at it?
All of those post-apocalyptic zombie/prepper/survivalist stories by A
American and others? Wasn't Modesty Blaise a refugee? "the castaways"
[1].

Note.

1. http://tinyurl.com/pa8zu68

--
,-. There was a young lady named Bright
\_/ Whose speed was far faster than light;
{|||)< Don Kuenz KB7RPU She set out one day
/ \ In a relative way
`-' And returned on the previous night.

What you do speaks so loud that I can not hear what you say.-JFK/Emerson
Brian M. Scott
2015-10-23 00:01:29 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 22 Oct 2015 23:47:08 +0000 (UTC), Don Kuenz
Post by Don Kuenz
Post by Brian M. Scott
A nice question was posted today in de.rec.sf.misc. In my
What is there in the way of SF in which refugees play a
large role? Off the top of my head only Cherryh occurs
to me, in _Downbelow Station_ and _Fires of Azeroth_.
Anything else?
Anyone care to take a crack at it?
All of those post-apocalyptic zombie/prepper/survivalist
stories by A American and others? Wasn't Modesty Blaise
a refugee?
The earliest part of her life that O’Donnell gave us was in
a refugee camp, but refugees do not play a large role in
her stories. For the same reason _Dune_ doesn’t really
qualify.

Brian
--
It was the neap tide, when the baga venture out of their
holes to root for sandtatties. The waves whispered
rhythmically over the packed sand: haggisss, haggisss,
haggisss.
Don Kuenz
2015-10-23 00:33:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Brian M. Scott
On Thu, 22 Oct 2015 23:47:08 +0000 (UTC), Don Kuenz
Post by Don Kuenz
Post by Brian M. Scott
A nice question was posted today in de.rec.sf.misc. In my
What is there in the way of SF in which refugees play a
large role? Off the top of my head only Cherryh occurs
to me, in _Downbelow Station_ and _Fires of Azeroth_.
Anything else?
Anyone care to take a crack at it?
All of those post-apocalyptic zombie/prepper/survivalist
stories by A American and others? Wasn't Modesty Blaise
a refugee?
The earliest part of her life that O?Donnell gave us was in
a refugee camp, but refugees do not play a large role in
her stories. For the same reason _Dune_ doesn?t really
qualify.
The "Fiat Voluntas Tua" story in _A Canticle for Leibowitz_ probably
qualifies. But even though a refugee camp is the plot objective of both
_Fahrenheit 451_ and _Logan's Run_, they probably don't qualify.

--
,-. There was a young lady named Bright
\_/ Whose speed was far faster than light;
{|||)< Don Kuenz KB7RPU She set out one day
/ \ In a relative way
`-' And returned on the previous night.

What you do speaks so loud that I can not hear what you say.-JFK/Emerson
William December Starr
2015-10-25 21:50:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Don Kuenz
The "Fiat Voluntas Tua" story in _A Canticle for Leibowitz_
probably qualifies. But even though a refugee camp is the plot
objective of both _Fahrenheit 451_ and _Logan's Run_, they
probably don't qualify.
For both examples I have to ask "Was it a refugee camp, or a camp
that was a refuge?" The two aren't really the same thing; the
former is a (usually crappy) place where people are stored, while
the latter is a (usually desirable) place where people want to be.

-- wds
Don Kuenz
2015-10-26 01:32:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by William December Starr
Post by Don Kuenz
The "Fiat Voluntas Tua" story in _A Canticle for Leibowitz_
probably qualifies. But even though a refugee camp is the plot
objective of both _Fahrenheit 451_ and _Logan's Run_, they
probably don't qualify.
For both examples I have to ask "Was it a refugee camp, or a camp
that was a refuge?" The two aren't really the same thing; the
former is a (usually crappy) place where people are stored, while
the latter is a (usually desirable) place where people want to be.
A state run camp is crappy, in other words, while an anarchist camp is
desirable. It's hard (for me) to find fault with your logic. ;) Be that
as it may, absent the dystopian elements, life in either Montag's
hometown or Logan's hometown seems far more desirable (to me) than life
in exile.

The remainder of my comments veer into the offtopic. Hawks and purists
probably want to move on now.

Bless you, William, for your follow-up to _Canticle_. This is the
fifty-third anniversary of the Cuban Missile Crisis so at least a few
people offer up opinion about the Crisis. At least one opinion [1] links
to _Canticle_ and also an interesting (to me) Twilight Zone reboot
episode [2]. Can anyone think of other stories from that era that share
a similar theme?

Three statements seem to summarize the opinion recently read by me.

1. The powers-that-be want to reboot the Cold War.
2. A Democracy that weighed its own citizen's opinion died with Kennedy.
3. The withdrawal of Jupiter missiles from Turkey in exchange for the
withdrawal of Soviet missiles from Cuba was squashed back in the day.

In regards to item three, if memory serves me, the word "Jupiter" does
not appear in the movie _Thirteen Days_. Someone out there suggests the
TV movie _The Missiles of October_ [3] as a more realistic reenactment.
It will be interesting (to me) to see if the word "Jupiter" appears in
_Missiles_.

Note.

1. http://tinyurl.com/ncokjx7
2.

3.


--
,-. There was a young lady named Bright
\_/ Whose speed was far faster than light;
{|||)< Don Kuenz KB7RPU She set out one day
/ \ In a relative way
`-' And returned on the previous night.

What you do speaks so loud that I can not hear what you say.-JFK/Emerson
William December Starr
2015-10-26 01:43:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Don Kuenz
Post by William December Starr
Post by Don Kuenz
The "Fiat Voluntas Tua" story in _A Canticle for Leibowitz_
probably qualifies. But even though a refugee camp is the plot
objective of both _Fahrenheit 451_ and _Logan's Run_, they
probably don't qualify.
For both examples I have to ask "Was it a refugee camp, or a camp
that was a refuge?" The two aren't really the same thing; the
former is a (usually crappy) place where people are stored, while
the latter is a (usually desirable) place where people want to be.
A state run camp is crappy, in other words, while an anarchist camp
is desirable. It's hard (for me) to find fault with your logic. ;)
Somewhere out there, I'm sure, is an alternate universe in which I
actually said that.

-- wds
Brian M. Scott
2015-10-26 02:03:48 UTC
Permalink
On 25 Oct 2015 21:43:31 -0400, William December Starr
Post by William December Starr
Post by Don Kuenz
Post by William December Starr
Post by Don Kuenz
The "Fiat Voluntas Tua" story in _A Canticle for
Leibowitz_ probably qualifies. But even though a
refugee camp is the plot objective of both
_Fahrenheit 451_ and _Logan's Run_, they probably
don't qualify.
For both examples I have to ask "Was it a refugee camp,
or a camp that was a refuge?" The two aren't really
the same thing; the former is a (usually crappy) place
where people are stored, while the latter is a
(usually desirable) place where people want to be.
A state run camp is crappy, in other words, while an
anarchist camp is desirable. It's hard (for me) to find
fault with your logic. ;)
Somewhere out there, I'm sure, is an alternate universe
in which I actually said that.
There might even be one in which it was true, though I
doubt it. It certainly isn’t true in ours, where the ones
that aren’t run by some state are generally even worse than
those that are. (Don’s email handle seems remarkably
appropriate.)

Brian
--
It was the neap tide, when the baga venture out of their
holes to root for sandtatties. The waves whispered
rhythmically over the packed sand: haggisss, haggisss,
haggisss.
Robert Carnegie
2015-10-26 12:48:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Don Kuenz
The remainder of my comments veer into the offtopic. Hawks and purists
probably want to move on now.
Bless you, William, for your follow-up to _Canticle_. This is the
fifty-third anniversary of the Cuban Missile Crisis so at least a few
people offer up opinion about the Crisis. At least one opinion [1] links
to _Canticle_ and also an interesting (to me) Twilight Zone reboot
episode [2]. Can anyone think of other stories from that era that share
a similar theme?
Three statements seem to summarize the opinion recently read by me.
1. The powers-that-be want to reboot the Cold War.
2. A Democracy that weighed its own citizen's opinion died with Kennedy.
3. The withdrawal of Jupiter missiles from Turkey in exchange for the
withdrawal of Soviet missiles from Cuba was squashed back in the day.
In regards to item three, if memory serves me, the word "Jupiter" does
not appear in the movie _Thirteen Days_. Someone out there suggests the
TV movie _The Missiles of October_ [3] as a more realistic reenactment.
It will be interesting (to me) to see if the word "Jupiter" appears in
_Missiles_.
Note.
1. http://tinyurl.com/ncokjx7
2. http://youtu.be/fxX3XWMZwf4
3. http://youtu.be/dmtp8XosVBE
On point three, sure. Kennedy was the hero who
caught the enemy smuggling missiles towards Cuba
and shamed or threatened him into smuggling them
away again.

I think a BBC radio drama some time since let's
say 1985 was the first that I heard about American
missiles overseas being withdrawn in exchange.
p***@gmail.com
2015-10-26 13:52:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by Don Kuenz
The remainder of my comments veer into the offtopic. Hawks and purists
probably want to move on now.
Bless you, William, for your follow-up to _Canticle_. This is the
fifty-third anniversary of the Cuban Missile Crisis so at least a few
people offer up opinion about the Crisis. At least one opinion [1] links
to _Canticle_ and also an interesting (to me) Twilight Zone reboot
episode [2]. Can anyone think of other stories from that era that share
a similar theme?
Three statements seem to summarize the opinion recently read by me.
1. The powers-that-be want to reboot the Cold War.
2. A Democracy that weighed its own citizen's opinion died with Kennedy.
3. The withdrawal of Jupiter missiles from Turkey in exchange for the
withdrawal of Soviet missiles from Cuba was squashed back in the day.
In regards to item three, if memory serves me, the word "Jupiter" does
not appear in the movie _Thirteen Days_. Someone out there suggests the
TV movie _The Missiles of October_ [3] as a more realistic reenactment.
It will be interesting (to me) to see if the word "Jupiter" appears in
_Missiles_.
Note.
1. http://tinyurl.com/ncokjx7
2. http://youtu.be/fxX3XWMZwf4
3. http://youtu.be/dmtp8XosVBE
On point three, sure. Kennedy was the hero who
caught the enemy smuggling missiles towards Cuba
and shamed or threatened him into smuggling them
away again.
I think a BBC radio drama some time since let's
say 1985 was the first that I heard about American
missiles overseas being withdrawn in exchange.
Yes, that's history.

...,iirc, in a bit of cross thread serendipity, the
model of US IRBM withdrawn from (then US ally)
Iran was called 'Vulcan'.

pt
p***@gmail.com
2015-10-26 16:06:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by p***@gmail.com
Post by Robert Carnegie
On point three, sure. Kennedy was the hero who
caught the enemy smuggling missiles towards Cuba
and shamed or threatened him into smuggling them
away again.
I think a BBC radio drama some time since let's
say 1985 was the first that I heard about American
missiles overseas being withdrawn in exchange.
Yes, that's history.
...,iirc, in a bit of cross thread serendipity, the
model of US IRBM withdrawn from (then US ally)
Iran was called 'Vulcan'.
Mea culpa. Turkey, not Iran.

pt
Kevrob
2015-10-26 15:16:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by Don Kuenz
Post by William December Starr
Post by Don Kuenz
The "Fiat Voluntas Tua" story in _A Canticle for Leibowitz_
probably qualifies. But even though a refugee camp is the plot
objective of both _Fahrenheit 451_ and _Logan's Run_, they
probably don't qualify.
For both examples I have to ask "Was it a refugee camp, or a camp
that was a refuge?" The two aren't really the same thing; the
former is a (usually crappy) place where people are stored, while
the latter is a (usually desirable) place where people want to be.
A state run camp is crappy, in other words, while an anarchist camp is
desirable. It's hard (for me) to find fault with your logic. ;) Be that
as it may, absent the dystopian elements, life in either Montag's
hometown or Logan's hometown seems far more desirable (to me) than life
in exile.
The remainder of my comments veer into the offtopic. Hawks and purists
probably want to move on now.
Bless you, William, for your follow-up to _Canticle_. This is the
fifty-third anniversary of the Cuban Missile Crisis so at least a few
people offer up opinion about the Crisis. At least one opinion [1] links
to _Canticle_ and also an interesting (to me) Twilight Zone reboot
episode [2]. Can anyone think of other stories from that era that share
a similar theme?
Three statements seem to summarize the opinion recently read by me.
1. The powers-that-be want to reboot the Cold War.
2. A Democracy that weighed its own citizen's opinion died with Kennedy.
If you dispose of the "stealing the election in Illinois" suspicions.
Actually listening to the citizens might have seen President Nixon in
1960. [Note: aside from a possibly truer "democratic outcome," I
am not positing that as a necessarily better result for the country.]
In the mid-20th century USA, it was expected that political machines,
not all of them urban and Democratic, would massage election results
on a regular basis to achieve results desired by those in control of
those outfits.]
Post by Don Kuenz
3. The withdrawal of Jupiter missiles from Turkey in exchange for the
withdrawal of Soviet missiles from Cuba was squashed back in the day.
In regards to item three, if memory serves me, the word "Jupiter" does
not appear in the movie _Thirteen Days_. Someone out there suggests the
TV movie _The Missiles of October_ [3] as a more realistic reenactment.
It will be interesting (to me) to see if the word "Jupiter" appears in
_Missiles_.
Note.
1. http://tinyurl.com/ncokjx7
2. http://youtu.be/fxX3XWMZwf4
3. http://youtu.be/dmtp8XosVBE
Bobby Kennedy on the Turkish missiles, then Krushchev.

http://nsarchive.gwu.edu/nsa/cuba_mis_cri/moment.htm

Kevin R
Don Kuenz
2015-10-26 18:50:32 UTC
Permalink
[snip]
Post by Kevrob
Post by Don Kuenz
Three statements seem to summarize the opinion recently read by me.
1. The powers-that-be want to reboot the Cold War.
2. A Democracy that weighed its own citizen's opinion died with Kennedy.
If you dispose of the "stealing the election in Illinois" suspicions.
Actually listening to the citizens might have seen President Nixon in
1960. [Note: aside from a possibly truer "democratic outcome," I
am not positing that as a necessarily better result for the country.]
In the mid-20th century USA, it was expected that political machines,
not all of them urban and Democratic, would massage election results
on a regular basis to achieve results desired by those in control of
those outfits.]
Did Nixon play the part of the scapegoat?

* He wins by one of the largest landslides in history (49 of 50 states)
and then becomes persona non grata a couple of years later.

* His tape recordings get a lot of play while Kennedy's (?Johnson's?)
recordings are virtually ignored.

* The mass mind blames Johnson's Vietnam War on Nixon.
Post by Kevrob
Post by Don Kuenz
3. The withdrawal of Jupiter missiles from Turkey in exchange for the
withdrawal of Soviet missiles from Cuba was squashed back in the day.
In regards to item three, if memory serves me, the word "Jupiter" does
not appear in the movie _Thirteen Days_. Someone out there suggests the
TV movie _The Missiles of October_ [3] as a more realistic reenactment.
It will be interesting (to me) to see if the word "Jupiter" appears in
_Missiles_.
Note.
Note.
1. http://tinyurl.com/ncokjx7
2. http://youtu.be/fxX3XWMZwf4
3. http://youtu.be/dmtp8XosVBE
Bobby Kennedy on the Turkish missiles, then Krushchev.
http://nsarchive.gwu.edu/nsa/cuba_mis_cri/moment.htm
Thank you. To it's own credit, the first part of _Missiles_ does indeed
mention "Jupiter" and broaches the notion of a quid pro quo. Wikipedia
says:

The Missiles of October is a 1974 docudrama made-for-television
play about the Cuban Missile Crisis. ... The script is based on
Robert Kennedy's book Thirteen Days: A Memoir of the Cuban
Missile Crisis. ... Original release - 18 December 1974 ...
writing credits given to Stanley R. Greenberg and Robert Kennedy.

I am mistaken about _Thirteen Days_. Wikipedia says that _Thirteen Days_
also mentions "Jupiter."

--
,-. There was a young lady named Bright
\_/ Whose speed was far faster than light;
{|||)< Don Kuenz KB7RPU She set out one day
/ \ In a relative way
`-' And returned on the previous night.

What you do speaks so loud that I can not hear what you say.-JFK/Emerson
Lawrence Watt-Evans
2015-10-26 19:07:24 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 26 Oct 2015 18:50:32 +0000 (UTC), Don Kuenz
Post by Ahasuerus
[snip]
Post by Kevrob
Post by Don Kuenz
Three statements seem to summarize the opinion recently read by me.
1. The powers-that-be want to reboot the Cold War.
Putin seems determined to do so; I don't think many people on the
western side want it.
Post by Ahasuerus
Post by Kevrob
Post by Don Kuenz
2. A Democracy that weighed its own citizen's opinion died with Kennedy.
If you dispose of the "stealing the election in Illinois" suspicions.
Actually listening to the citizens might have seen President Nixon in
1960. [Note: aside from a possibly truer "democratic outcome," I
am not positing that as a necessarily better result for the country.]
In the mid-20th century USA, it was expected that political machines,
not all of them urban and Democratic, would massage election results
on a regular basis to achieve results desired by those in control of
those outfits.]
Did Nixon play the part of the scapegoat?
* He wins by one of the largest landslides in history (49 of 50 states)
and then becomes persona non grata a couple of years later.
...when it's discovered he was attempting to cheat (unnecessarily) to
win the election.
Post by Ahasuerus
* His tape recordings get a lot of play while Kennedy's (?Johnson's?)
recordings are virtually ignored.
Johnson installed the recorders, not Kennedy, and Johnson's tapes
didn't include anything particularly incriminating.
Post by Ahasuerus
* The mass mind blames Johnson's Vietnam War on Nixon.
Nixon was elected with a promise to end the war; instead he escalated
it for four years, including bombing neighboring countries, before
finally shutting it down.

Johnson was not exactly praised, either -- I well remember "Hey, hey,
LBJ, how many kids did you kill today?" But Johnson dropped out of
power and out of sight in January of 1969, after deliberately not
running for re-election, while Nixon claimed the war for his own.
--
My webpage is at http://www.watt-evans.com

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William December Starr
2015-10-27 13:33:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lawrence Watt-Evans
Post by Don Kuenz
1. The powers-that-be want to reboot the Cold War.
Putin seems determined to do so; I don't think many people on the
western side want it.
I think it's possible that a lot of powers-that-be in the west want
something very much like the Cold War, only without the ever-present
threat of global annihilation if you please, to come back. It would
make both (a) policy- and (b) profit- making so much simpler.

-- wds
Kevrob
2015-10-26 19:31:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ahasuerus
[snip]
Post by Kevrob
Post by Don Kuenz
Three statements seem to summarize the opinion recently read by me.
1. The powers-that-be want to reboot the Cold War.
2. A Democracy that weighed its own citizen's opinion died with Kennedy.
If you dispose of the "stealing the election in Illinois" suspicions.
Actually listening to the citizens might have seen President Nixon in
1960. [Note: aside from a possibly truer "democratic outcome," I
am not positing that as a necessarily better result for the country.]
In the mid-20th century USA, it was expected that political machines,
not all of them urban and Democratic, would massage election results
on a regular basis to achieve results desired by those in control of
those outfits.]
Did Nixon play the part of the scapegoat?
* He wins by one of the largest landslides in history (49 of 50 states)
and then becomes persona non grata a couple of years later.
This was, mostly, Nixon's Own Damned Fault. His first term was won in
a popular vote plurality against a fractured Democratic Party. Facing
a possibly united one, his attitude was "They Aren't Going To Steal
Another One From Me!" leading to not only the usual ethical corner
cutting and petty graft of most presidential elections (pork barrel
spending in toss-up states, appointments of folks of dubious
qualifications to sinecures to reward allies or remove rivals from the
field, generous spreading of "walking around money"...) but to the
suborning of criminal acts not usually countenanced.
Post by Ahasuerus
* His tape recordings get a lot of play while Kennedy's (?Johnson's?)
recordings are virtually ignored.
* The mass mind blames Johnson's Vietnam War on Nixon."
Nixon, like Obama, takes just blame for promising to end the
war(s) his predecessor(s) started. Remember "I have a secret
plan?" "Vietnamization" wasn't going to end the ground war, just
transfer it to ARVN, and our Air Force wasn't going to be pulled
out as fast as our Army and Marine troops. It didn't work all
that well, nor has "Iraqification" nor "Afghanization" in this
century.

There is plenty of blame to go around fro "Johnson's War," all the
way back to Ike.
Post by Ahasuerus
Post by Kevrob
Post by Don Kuenz
3. The withdrawal of Jupiter missiles from Turkey in exchange for the
withdrawal of Soviet missiles from Cuba was squashed back in the day.
In regards to item three, if memory serves me, the word "Jupiter" does
not appear in the movie _Thirteen Days_. Someone out there suggests the
TV movie _The Missiles of October_ [3] as a more realistic reenactment.
It will be interesting (to me) to see if the word "Jupiter" appears in
_Missiles_.
Note.
Note.
1. http://tinyurl.com/ncokjx7
2. http://youtu.be/fxX3XWMZwf4
3. http://youtu.be/dmtp8XosVBE
Bobby Kennedy on the Turkish missiles, then Krushchev.
http://nsarchive.gwu.edu/nsa/cuba_mis_cri/moment.htm
Thank you. To it's own credit, the first part of _Missiles_ does indeed
mention "Jupiter" and broaches the notion of a quid pro quo. Wikipedia
The Missiles of October is a 1974 docudrama made-for-television
play about the Cuban Missile Crisis. ... The script is based on
Robert Kennedy's book Thirteen Days: A Memoir of the Cuban
Missile Crisis. ... Original release - 18 December 1974 ...
writing credits given to Stanley R. Greenberg and Robert Kennedy.
I am mistaken about _Thirteen Days_. Wikipedia says that _Thirteen Days_
also mentions "Jupiter."
I remember this scene in "Thirteen Days":

[quote]

John A. Scali, a reporter with ABC News, is contacted by Soviet "emissary" Aleksandr Fomin (Boris Lee Krutonog), and through this back-channel communication method the Soviets offer to remove the missiles in exchange for public assurances from the U.S. that it will never invade Cuba.

[/quote]

from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thirteen_Days_(film)

This gave the Kennedy administration "plausible deniability" should there
ever be an investigation of any quid pro quo.

Kevin R
Robert Carnegie
2015-10-27 08:59:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kevrob
Post by Ahasuerus
[snip]
Post by Kevrob
Post by Don Kuenz
Three statements seem to summarize the opinion recently read by me.
1. The powers-that-be want to reboot the Cold War.
2. A Democracy that weighed its own citizen's opinion died with Kennedy.
If you dispose of the "stealing the election in Illinois" suspicions.
Actually listening to the citizens might have seen President Nixon in
1960. [Note: aside from a possibly truer "democratic outcome," I
am not positing that as a necessarily better result for the country.]
In the mid-20th century USA, it was expected that political machines,
not all of them urban and Democratic, would massage election results
on a regular basis to achieve results desired by those in control of
those outfits.]
Did Nixon play the part of the scapegoat?
* He wins by one of the largest landslides in history (49 of 50 states)
and then becomes persona non grata a couple of years later.
This was, mostly, Nixon's Own Damned Fault. His first term was won in
a popular vote plurality against a fractured Democratic Party. Facing
a possibly united one, his attitude was "They Aren't Going To Steal
Another One From Me!" leading to not only the usual ethical corner
cutting and petty graft of most presidential elections (pork barrel
spending in toss-up states, appointments of folks of dubious
qualifications to sinecures to reward allies or remove rivals from the
field, generous spreading of "walking around money"...) but to the
suborning of criminal acts not usually countenanced.
Post by Ahasuerus
* His tape recordings get a lot of play while Kennedy's (?Johnson's?)
recordings are virtually ignored.
* The mass mind blames Johnson's Vietnam War on Nixon."
Nixon, like Obama, takes just blame for promising to end the
war(s) his predecessor(s) started. Remember "I have a secret
plan?" "Vietnamization" wasn't going to end the ground war, just
transfer it to ARVN, and our Air Force wasn't going to be pulled
out as fast as our Army and Marine troops. It didn't work all
that well, nor has "Iraqification" nor "Afghanization" in this
century.
There is plenty of blame to go around fro "Johnson's War," all the
way back to Ike.
Post by Ahasuerus
Post by Kevrob
Post by Don Kuenz
3. The withdrawal of Jupiter missiles from Turkey in exchange for the
withdrawal of Soviet missiles from Cuba was squashed back in the day.
In regards to item three, if memory serves me, the word "Jupiter" does
not appear in the movie _Thirteen Days_. Someone out there suggests the
TV movie _The Missiles of October_ [3] as a more realistic reenactment.
It will be interesting (to me) to see if the word "Jupiter" appears in
_Missiles_.
Note.
Note.
1. http://tinyurl.com/ncokjx7
2. http://youtu.be/fxX3XWMZwf4
3. http://youtu.be/dmtp8XosVBE
Bobby Kennedy on the Turkish missiles, then Krushchev.
http://nsarchive.gwu.edu/nsa/cuba_mis_cri/moment.htm
Thank you. To it's own credit, the first part of _Missiles_ does indeed
mention "Jupiter" and broaches the notion of a quid pro quo. Wikipedia
The Missiles of October is a 1974 docudrama made-for-television
play about the Cuban Missile Crisis. ... The script is based on
Robert Kennedy's book Thirteen Days: A Memoir of the Cuban
Missile Crisis. ... Original release - 18 December 1974 ...
writing credits given to Stanley R. Greenberg and Robert Kennedy.
I am mistaken about _Thirteen Days_. Wikipedia says that _Thirteen Days_
also mentions "Jupiter."
[quote]
John A. Scali, a reporter with ABC News, is contacted by Soviet "emissary" Aleksandr Fomin (Boris Lee Krutonog), and through this back-channel communication method the Soviets offer to remove the missiles in exchange for public assurances from the U.S. that it will never invade Cuba.
[/quote]
from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thirteen_Days_(film)
This gave the Kennedy administration "plausible deniability" should there
ever be an investigation of any quid pro quo.
Kevin R
Were there such public assurances? In a binding form?
I thought Dubya and Obama were just waiting for Fidel
to die before going in. And he hasn't. Of course,
a deal with theU.S.S.R. is no longer binding, anyway.

This is /after/ Kennedy claimed the Moon, yes?
William December Starr
2015-10-27 13:36:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kevrob
Post by Ahasuerus
* The mass mind blames Johnson's Vietnam War on Nixon."
Nixon, like Obama, takes just blame for promising to end the
war(s) his predecessor(s) started. Remember "I have a secret
plan?" "Vietnamization" wasn't going to end the ground war, just
transfer it to ARVN, and our Air Force wasn't going to be pulled
out as fast as our Army and Marine troops. It didn't work all
that well, nor has "Iraqification" nor "Afghanization" in this
century.
There is plenty of blame to go around fro "Johnson's War," all the
way back to Ike.
"And the moral of the story, boys and girls, is 'Never by a used war
from the French'."

-- wds
John F. Eldredge
2015-10-28 02:09:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by William December Starr
Post by Ahasuerus
* The mass mind blames Johnson's Vietnam War on Nixon."
Nixon, like Obama, takes just blame for promising to end the war(s) his
predecessor(s) started. Remember "I have a secret plan?"
"Vietnamization" wasn't going to end the ground war, just transfer it
to ARVN, and our Air Force wasn't going to be pulled out as fast as our
Army and Marine troops. It didn't work all that well, nor has
"Iraqification" nor "Afghanization" in this century.
There is plenty of blame to go around fro "Johnson's War," all the way
back to Ike.
"And the moral of the story, boys and girls, is 'Never by a used war
from the French'."
-- wds
Or in broader terms, never get involved in a land war in Asia, as Douglas
MacArthur reportedly advised Truman.
William December Starr
2015-10-27 13:27:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kevrob
If you dispose of the "stealing the election in Illinois"
suspicions. Actually listening to the citizens might have seen
President Nixon in 1960. [Note: aside from a possibly truer
"democratic outcome," I am not positing that as a necessarily
better result for the country.] In the mid-20th century USA, it
was expected that political machines, not all of them urban and
Democratic, would massage election results on a regular basis to
achieve results desired by those in control of those outfits.]
The version of the 1960 election that's always sounded the most
likely to me was that Kennedy stole Illinois from Nixon and Nixon
stole {some other state, I forget which one} from Kennedy, and it
basically balanced out.

-- wds
Kevrob
2015-10-27 14:57:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by William December Starr
Post by Kevrob
If you dispose of the "stealing the election in Illinois"
suspicions. Actually listening to the citizens might have seen
President Nixon in 1960. [Note: aside from a possibly truer
"democratic outcome," I am not positing that as a necessarily
better result for the country.] In the mid-20th century USA, it
was expected that political machines, not all of them urban and
Democratic, would massage election results on a regular basis to
achieve results desired by those in control of those outfits.]
The version of the 1960 election that's always sounded the most
likely to me was that Kennedy stole Illinois from Nixon and Nixon
stole {some other state, I forget which one} from Kennedy, and it
basically balanced out.
That's plausible. But the two large states suspected of being
moved into the Kennedy column, Illinois and Texas, would have to
be offset by other large states, or a lot of small ones.

Here's David Greenberg on Slate, not a right-wing site by any means,
discussing the possibilities. He figures the result was more or less
accurate, but does agree there was some corruption in Cook County.
[In other news, liquid water is wet.]

[quote]

Many of the allegations involved practices that wouldn't be detected by a recount, leading the conservative Chicago Tribune, among others, to conclude that "once an election has been stolen in Cook County, it stays stolen." What's more, according to journalist Seymour Hersh, a former Justice Department prosecutor who heard tapes of FBI wiretaps from the period believed that Illinois was rightfully Nixon's. Hersh also has written that J. Edgar Hoover believed Nixon actually won the presidency but in deciding to follow normal procedures and refer the FBI's findings to the attorney general--as of Jan. 20, 1961, Robert F. Kennedy--he effectively buried the case.

[/quote]

Seymour Hersh wound up on Nixon's enemies list.

Texas was, of course, the home of "Landslide Lyndon" Johnson.

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/history_lesson/2000/10/was_nixon_robbed.single.html

1960 was still the era of Jim Crow. People talk of "voter suppression"
nowadays when they object to just the sort of practices that allowed
outfits like the Daley Machine to bring in just the numbers that were
needed to Democratic victories. The real voter suppression was what
was done to non-white voters, especially in the South, and Nixon did
win a third of the black vote nationally, compared to the typical
modern GOP Presidential candidates, who hover around the 10% mark.

See:

http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2015/08/what-nixon-can-teach-the-gop-about-courting-black-voters-121392

It isn't hard to imagine a scenario where "dependable" black voters
are allowed to vote by the local Democratic organization, and the
"unreliable" ones who might vote Republican are kept from voting.

I still think the "election was stolen" camp has the burden
of proof, and there was probably corruption on both sides.
That was par for the course back then.

Kevin R
Kevrob
2015-10-27 15:13:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kevrob
Seymour Hersh wound up on Nixon's enemies list.
Correction: he wasn't on the top 20 or the extended list, but I'm
sure he earned Tricky Dick's enmity later on, when he exposed the My Lai
massacre.

Kevin R
William Hyde
2015-10-28 20:18:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kevrob
Texas was, of course, the home of "Landslide Lyndon" Johnson.
http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/history_lesson/2000/10/was_nixon_robbed.single.html
The story of how LBJ failed to steal the 1941 Texas senate election (not for want of trying) and how he did not make that mistake in 1948 is given in great (and for me, fascinating, but YMMV) detail in Caro's second book on LBJ ("The Path to Power", IIRC).

It seems that all statewide Texas elections were stolen in those days, except that once in a while they were stolen on behalf of the person who would have won anyway, and/or without the active involvement of the candidate.
Post by Kevrob
1960 was still the era of Jim Crow. People talk of "voter suppression"
nowadays when they object to just the sort of practices that allowed
outfits like the Daley Machine to bring in just the numbers that were
needed to Democratic victories. The real voter suppression was what
was done to non-white voters, especially in the South, and Nixon did
win a third of the black vote nationally, compared to the typical
modern GOP Presidential candidates, who hover around the 10% mark.
Eisenhower and Nixon had been big supporters of the 1957 civil rights act, in its initial broad scope, but the act was amended to nothingness to prevent a filibuster by the southern democrats, with western republicans backing them up on any cloture vote. LBJ got the credit for passing the limited and toothless version that eventually became law. Trying to figure out which of the above were actually on your side must have been dizzying.

William Hyde
Kevrob
2015-10-28 20:41:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by William Hyde
Post by Kevrob
Texas was, of course, the home of "Landslide Lyndon" Johnson.
http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/history_lesson/2000/10/was_nixon_robbed.single.html
The story of how LBJ failed to steal the 1941 Texas senate election (not for want of trying) and how he did not make that mistake in 1948 is given in great (and for me, fascinating, but YMMV) detail in Caro's second book on LBJ ("The Path to Power", IIRC).
I've only read excepts of the Caro Johnson bio. It's HUUUUGGGE, as the
Donald might say. I really enjoyed THE POWER BROKER, about Robert
Moses, so I expect I'd get similar mileage. The Texas election chicanery
is one part I have read, along with the bits on how Johnson got to claim
he was a WWII "war hero."

http://historynewsnetwork.org/article/153

says it was even more exaggerated than Caro's version.
Post by William Hyde
It seems that all statewide Texas elections were stolen in those days, except that once in a while they were stolen on behalf of the person who would have won anyway, and/or without the active involvement of the candidate.
Post by Kevrob
1960 was still the era of Jim Crow. People talk of "voter suppression"
nowadays when they object to just the sort of practices that allowed
outfits like the Daley Machine to bring in just the numbers that were
needed to Democratic victories. The real voter suppression was what
was done to non-white voters, especially in the South, and Nixon did
win a third of the black vote nationally, compared to the typical
modern GOP Presidential candidates, who hover around the 10% mark.
Eisenhower and Nixon had been big supporters of the 1957 civil rights act, in its initial broad scope, but the act was amended to nothingness to prevent a filibuster by the southern democrats, with western republicans backing them up on any cloture vote. LBJ got the credit for passing the limited and toothless version that eventually became law. Trying to figure out which of the above were actually on your side must have been dizzying.
Kevin R
William Hyde
2015-10-31 19:52:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kevrob
Post by William Hyde
Post by Kevrob
Texas was, of course, the home of "Landslide Lyndon" Johnson.
http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/history_lesson/2000/10/was_nixon_robbed.single.html
The story of how LBJ failed to steal the 1941 Texas senate election (not for want of trying) and how he did not make that mistake in 1948 is given in great (and for me, fascinating, but YMMV) detail in Caro's second book on LBJ ("The Path to Power", IIRC).
I've only read excepts of the Caro Johnson bio. It's HUUUUGGGE,
I used to compulsively read political biography. I enjoyed it more than (dare I say it?) any fiction. I got started on either Roy Jenkins' "Asquith" or possibly A.J.P. Taylor's "Beaverbrook", not sure which. Took a while to get into the American version, but Owen Lattimore's niece loaned me a copy of his biography, and then a friend recommended "The Power Broker".

I waited 14 years for Caro's third book. These GRRM whiners don't know what pain is!

William Hyde
PeterM
2015-11-04 19:25:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by William Hyde
I waited 14 years for Caro's third book. These GRRM whiners don't know what pain is!
Anyone who's still waiting for the next Chtorr book has you beat.

That one's on topic, too, since I'm sure the alien invasion has created any number of refugees. Also, if I recall correctly the best long term solution anyone's come up with yet is getting as many humans as possible into space habitats, then nuking the Earth until it's a lifeless rock. Then they'll wait
until the planet is inhabitable again. That would make very human being a refugee.
William Hyde
2015-11-04 20:36:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by PeterM
Post by William Hyde
I waited 14 years for Caro's third book. These GRRM whiners don't know what pain is!
Anyone who's still waiting for the next Chtorr book has you beat.
Quite true.

I suppose I don't feel the pain of those waiting for the next Chtorr book, because somewhere in the middle of the third I decided I wouldn't be reading the fourth, anyway. They are among the few books I've ever sold.

But then, those of us waiting for "The Universal Pantograph" have even the Chtorr people beat.


William Hyde
Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)
2015-11-04 21:37:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by William Hyde
Post by PeterM
Post by William Hyde
I waited 14 years for Caro's third book. These GRRM whiners don't know what pain is!
Anyone who's still waiting for the next Chtorr book has you beat.
Quite true.
I suppose I don't feel the pain of those waiting for the next Chtorr book, because somewhere in the middle of the third I decided I wouldn't be reading the fourth, anyway. They are among the few books I've ever sold.
But then, those of us waiting for "The Universal Pantograph" have even the Chtorr people beat.
Won't that be in "The Last Dangerous Visions"?
--
Sea Wasp
/^\
;;;
Website: http://www.grandcentralarena.com Blog:
http://seawasp.livejournal.com
p***@gmail.com
2015-11-04 21:51:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)
Post by William Hyde
Post by PeterM
Post by William Hyde
I waited 14 years for Caro's third book. These GRRM whiners don't
know what pain is!
Anyone who's still waiting for the next Chtorr book has you beat.
Quite true.
I suppose I don't feel the pain of those waiting for the next Chtorr book, because somewhere in the middle of the third I decided I wouldn't be reading the fourth, anyway. They are among the few books I've ever sold.
But then, those of us waiting for "The Universal Pantograph" have even the Chtorr people beat.
Won't that be in "The Last Dangerous Visions"?
Here's some others:
http://www.blastr.com/2009-1-21/which-sf-writer-has-made-us-wait-longest-sequel

Their biggest (44 years):
Jack Williamson's One Against the Legion (1939) and The Queen of the
Legion (1983)

I think we need to distinguish between cases where a sequel was clearly
in the offing when the first book was published, and cases where the author
takes it into his/her head to revisit a scenario long afterwards.

pt
Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)
2015-11-04 22:38:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by p***@gmail.com
Post by Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)
Post by William Hyde
Post by PeterM
Post by William Hyde
I waited 14 years for Caro's third book. These GRRM whiners don't
know what pain is!
Anyone who's still waiting for the next Chtorr book has you beat.
Quite true.
I suppose I don't feel the pain of those waiting for the next Chtorr book, because somewhere in the middle of the third I decided I wouldn't be reading the fourth, anyway. They are among the few books I've ever sold.
But then, those of us waiting for "The Universal Pantograph" have even the Chtorr people beat.
Won't that be in "The Last Dangerous Visions"?
http://www.blastr.com/2009-1-21/which-sf-writer-has-made-us-wait-longest-sequel
Jack Williamson's One Against the Legion (1939) and The Queen of the
Legion (1983)
Well, "Nowhere Near" was written in 1967, IIRC, so that was a gap of 28
years between Legion books. Still long, but not nearly the champion.

I'm also not entirely down with Heinlein's entry, as "Friday" was so
very different from the universe of "Gulf" that it's more retcon than
anything else. Even Asimov's retcon was more convincing.
Post by p***@gmail.com
I think we need to distinguish between cases where a sequel was clearly
in the offing when the first book was published, and cases where the author
takes it into his/her head to revisit a scenario long afterwards.
pt
--
Sea Wasp
/^\
;;;
Website: http://www.grandcentralarena.com Blog:
http://seawasp.livejournal.com
Greg Goss
2015-11-05 07:46:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by p***@gmail.com
Post by Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)
Post by William Hyde
Post by PeterM
Post by William Hyde
I waited 14 years for Caro's third book. These GRRM whiners don't
know what pain is!
Anyone who's still waiting for the next Chtorr book has you beat.
Quite true.
I suppose I don't feel the pain of those waiting for the next Chtorr book, because somewhere in the middle of the third I decided I wouldn't be reading the fourth, anyway. They are among the few books I've ever sold.
But then, those of us waiting for "The Universal Pantograph" have even the Chtorr people beat.
Won't that be in "The Last Dangerous Visions"?
http://www.blastr.com/2009-1-21/which-sf-writer-has-made-us-wait-longest-sequel
Jack Williamson's One Against the Legion (1939) and The Queen of the
Legion (1983)
I think we need to distinguish between cases where a sequel was clearly
in the offing when the first book was published, and cases where the author
takes it into his/her head to revisit a scenario long afterwards.
Weren't there three stories (complete with titles) on Heinlein's
future history timeline that he never got around to writing?
--
We are geeks. Resistance is voltage over current.
Robert A. Woodward
2015-11-05 06:05:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)
Post by William Hyde
Post by PeterM
Post by William Hyde
I waited 14 years for Caro's third book. These GRRM whiners don't
know what pain is!
Anyone who's still waiting for the next Chtorr book has you beat.
Quite true.
I suppose I don't feel the pain of those waiting for the next Chtorr book,
because somewhere in the middle of the third I decided I wouldn't be
reading the fourth, anyway. They are among the few books I've ever sold.
But then, those of us waiting for "The Universal Pantograph" have even the
Chtorr people beat.
Won't that be in "The Last Dangerous Visions"?
When was _The Last Dangerous Visions_ promised? _The Universal
Pantograph_ was promised in 1969.
--
Robert Woodward <***@drizzle.com>
<http://robertaw.drizzlehosting.com>
David DeLaney
2015-11-05 03:19:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by PeterM
Post by William Hyde
I waited 14 years for Caro's third book. These GRRM whiners don't know what pain is!
Anyone who's still waiting for the next Chtorr book has you beat.
As does anyone who's still waiting for _The Door Into Starlight_...

Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting thru EarthLink - "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://gatekeeper.vic.com/~dbd/ -net.legends/Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.
Brian M. Scott
2015-11-05 04:18:59 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, 04 Nov 2015 21:19:24 -0600, David DeLaney
Post by David DeLaney
On Saturday, October 31, 2015 at 12:52:57 PM UTC-7,
Post by William Hyde
I waited 14 years for Caro's third book. These GRRM
whiners don't know what pain is!
Anyone who's still waiting for the next Chtorr book has
you beat.
As does anyone who's still waiting for _The Door Into
Starlight_...
She still says that she intends to write it, so I’m still
hoping. By the way, she has a revised and expanded ebook
version of _Stealing the Elf-King’s Roses_, another
favorite of mine; it came out late in 2011 and includes an
appendix and afterword.

Brian
--
It was the neap tide, when the baga venture out of their
holes to root for sandtatties. The waves whispered
rhythmically over the packed sand: haggisss, haggisss,
haggisss.
Joy Beeson
2015-10-22 22:55:14 UTC
Permalink
Several of Andre Norton's protagonists escaped from "the dipple",
which was created as a dump for disposing of refugees.
--
joy beeson at comcast dot net
http://wlweather.net/PAGEJOY/
The above message is a Usenet post.
I don't recall having given anyone permission to use it on a Web site.
h***@gmail.com
2015-10-23 00:08:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Brian M. Scott
A nice question was posted today in de.rec.sf.misc. In my
What is there in the way of SF in which refugees play a
large role? Off the top of my head only Cherryh occurs
to me, in _Downbelow Station_ and _Fires of Azeroth_.
Anything else?
Anyone care to take a crack at it?
Pier's Anthony Bio of a Space Tyrant book 1 (not a recommendation)
Babylon 5 has various refugee groups, not sure how much they impact on the novels.
The entirety of Weber's Safehold series is about a planet settled by refugees from Earth's destruction.
John Ringo's Posaleen series has massive refugee movements.
A lot of mil sf has refugee movement...
David Johnston
2015-10-23 02:29:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Brian M. Scott
A nice question was posted today in de.rec.sf.misc. In my
What is there in the way of SF in which refugees play a
large role? Off the top of my head only Cherryh occurs
to me, in _Downbelow Station_ and _Fires of Azeroth_.
Anything else?
Anyone care to take a crack at it?
Brian
Andre Norton wrote multiple books in which her trademark spaceport
urchins were plucked out of a long term refugee camp called the Dipple
to play a part in someone's nefarious scheme. Bio of Space Tyrant by
Piers Anthony starts with boat people IN SPACE. Both Battlestar
Galacticas were about refugee fleets.
John F. Eldredge
2015-10-23 03:26:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Brian M. Scott
What is there in the way of SF in which refugees play a large role?
Off the top of my head only Cherryh occurs to me, in _Downbelow
Station_ and _Fires of Azeroth_.
Anything else?
Anyone care to take a crack at it?
Brian
_Mission Child_, by Maureen McHugh, is about a refugee, and about the
difficulties in moving from a semi-nomadic setting to a refugee camp, and
then to a new society.
William Hyde
2015-10-23 04:01:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Brian M. Scott
A nice question was posted today in de.rec.sf.misc. In my
What is there in the way of SF in which refugees play a
large role? Off the top of my head only Cherryh occurs
to me, in _Downbelow Station_ and _Fires of Azeroth_.
Anything else?
Anyone care to take a crack at it?
In "The Keys to December" Zelazny shows us a group of refugees which never actually lived on their home world. Bioformed for a very cold, high gravity world, but not actually there yet, they are left homeless when that world is incinerated.

In Christopher Rowley's "The Founder" and associated books the colonists are all refugees from Earth. The protagonist of "Starhammer", a much later novel in the same setting, is a refugee from the Laowan tyranny. In fact, refugees seem to feature in pretty much all of Rowley's early SF.

William Hyde
Post by Brian M. Scott
Brian
--
It was the neap tide, when the baga venture out of their
holes to root for sandtatties. The waves whispered
rhythmically over the packed sand: haggisss, haggisss,
haggisss.
Greg Goss
2015-10-23 04:45:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Brian M. Scott
A nice question was posted today in de.rec.sf.misc. In my
What is there in the way of SF in which refugees play a
large role? Off the top of my head only Cherryh occurs
to me, in _Downbelow Station_ and _Fires of Azeroth_.
Anything else?
Anyone care to take a crack at it?
The second Uplift trilogy. Though many here doubt that one was ever
written.

An arrival by the only remaining survivors of an alien species.
Footfall, The Jupiter Theft.

A lot of stories where the focus characters just barely escape to
found a colony offscreen after the curtain falls. Falling Free.
Sort'a Orphans of the Sky.

There are a lot of stories of people fleeing a destroyed or dying
earth. I'm not sure if that's quite the same thing. Forge of God,
Songs of Distant Earth, When (and after) Worlds Collide, lots of
"golden age" stories set underground after an invasion (or Varley's on
the nine other planets).

There are a bunch of early stories where refugees from various places
desperately make it to a new place to start over, and their names were
(say it with me...) Adam and Eve.

Are the 1632 Americans refugees?
--
We are geeks. Resistance is voltage over current.
Ahasuerus
2015-10-23 14:54:26 UTC
Permalink
On Friday, October 23, 2015 at 12:46:04 AM UTC-4, Greg Goss wrote:
[snip]
Post by Greg Goss
Are the 1632 Americans refugees?
I don't think so, but there were numerous German refugees in the book.

In Francis Carsac's (http://www.isfdb.org/cgi-bin/ea.cgi?16993)
_Terre en fuite_ (1960), Earth itself is a refugee. In Roger MacBride
Allen's (http://www.isfdb.org/cgi-bin/ea.cgi?181) _Hunted Earth_,
Earth is ... not exactly a refugee, but perhaps a "displaced person".
Greg Goss
2015-10-23 20:55:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ahasuerus
[snip]
Post by Greg Goss
Are the 1632 Americans refugees?
I don't think so, but there were numerous German refugees in the book.
In Francis Carsac's (http://www.isfdb.org/cgi-bin/ea.cgi?16993)
_Terre en fuite_ (1960), Earth itself is a refugee. In Roger MacBride
Allen's (http://www.isfdb.org/cgi-bin/ea.cgi?181) _Hunted Earth_,
Earth is ... not exactly a refugee, but perhaps a "displaced person".
OK, that might be an entire genre by itself. I'm not familiar with
either of your cites, but there's a Stanley Schmidt (I think) novel
(novel series, or was the novel itself a fixup of several stories? I
forget now) with an earth connected to a star-drive to escape a
disaster. There MUST be more of these out there.
--
We are geeks. Resistance is voltage over current.
Steve Coltrin
2015-10-23 22:09:04 UTC
Permalink
begin fnord
Post by Greg Goss
An arrival by the only remaining survivors of an alien species.
Footfall, The Jupiter Theft.
The fithp in _Footfall_ weren't the only survivors, they were the losers
of a war.
--
Steve Coltrin ***@omcl.org Google Groups killfiled here
"A group known as the League of Human Dignity helped arrange for Deuel
to be driven to a local livestock scale, where he could be weighed."
- Associated Press
William Vetter
2015-10-23 05:14:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Brian M. Scott
A nice question was posted today in de.rec.sf.misc. In my
What is there in the way of SF in which refugees play a
large role? Off the top of my head only Cherryh occurs
to me, in _Downbelow Station_ and _Fires of Azeroth_.
Anything else?
There was a movie & TV show, _Alien Nation_, that had some franchised
novels.
Kay Shapero
2015-10-24 06:04:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by William Vetter
Post by Brian M. Scott
A nice question was posted today in de.rec.sf.misc. In my
What is there in the way of SF in which refugees play a
large role? Off the top of my head only Cherryh occurs
to me, in _Downbelow Station_ and _Fires of Azeroth_.
Anything else?
There was a movie & TV show, _Alien Nation_, that had some franchised
novels.
In _Beast Master_ by Andre Norton, the homeworld (Terra) of the
protagonist, Hosteen Storm had been destroyed in a recently ended war,
leaving only those who had been offworld behind as refugees, most of who
had understandably severe psychological problems. Along with the
adventure elements and secret plots and stuff, the story mostly consists
of his efforts to make a new life on the planet Arzor, what his coping
mechanism is, and the final resolution thereof.
--
Kay Shapero
Address munged, try my first name at kayshapero dot net.
Chrysi Cat
2015-11-01 10:06:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kay Shapero
Post by William Vetter
Post by Brian M. Scott
A nice question was posted today in de.rec.sf.misc. In my
What is there in the way of SF in which refugees play a
large role? Off the top of my head only Cherryh occurs
to me, in _Downbelow Station_ and _Fires of Azeroth_.
Anything else?
There was a movie & TV show, _Alien Nation_, that had some franchised
novels.
In _Beast Master_ by Andre Norton, the homeworld (Terra) of the
protagonist, Hosteen Storm had been destroyed in a recently ended war,
leaving only those who had been offworld behind as refugees, most of who
had understandably severe psychological problems. Along with the
adventure elements and secret plots and stuff, the story mostly consists
of his efforts to make a new life on the planet Arzor, what his coping
mechanism is, and the final resolution thereof.
Oh, my. With a name like _that_, that would probably have been even
harder. After all, this current generation of Dinéh are pretty much
inclined to try to _return_ to the Navajo Nation even if their ancestors
had left it, and from what I've heard it doesn't lose adults to European
culture nearly as often as the reservations in the Great Plains and
Northern Rockies. Just because so much of their religion is bound up in
"you're supposed to live within the Four Sacred Peaks".
--
Chrysi Cat
1/2 anthrocat, nearly 1/2 anthrofox, all magical
Transgoddess, quick to anger
Call me Chrysi or call me Kat, I'll respond to either!
Kay Shapero
2015-11-02 04:59:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chrysi Cat
Post by Kay Shapero
In _Beast Master_ by Andre Norton, the homeworld (Terra) of the
protagonist, Hosteen Storm had been destroyed in a recently ended war,
leaving only those who had been offworld behind as refugees, most of who
had understandably severe psychological problems. Along with the
adventure elements and secret plots and stuff, the story mostly consists
of his efforts to make a new life on the planet Arzor, what his coping
mechanism is, and the final resolution thereof.
Oh, my. With a name like _that_, that would probably have been even
harder. After all, this current generation of Dinéh are pretty much
inclined to try to _return_ to the Navajo Nation even if their ancestors
had left it, and from what I've heard it doesn't lose adults to European
culture nearly as often as the reservations in the Great Plains and
Northern Rockies. Just because so much of their religion is bound up in
"you're supposed to live within the Four Sacred Peaks".
Oh it was, and he was one of very few of his kin (well, of ANY Dinéh) to
leave the homeworld before it got fried, Four Sacred Peaks and all.
It's a good book.
--
Kay Shapero
Address munged, try my first name at kayshapero dot net.
Butch Malahide
2015-10-23 06:34:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Brian M. Scott
A nice question was posted today in de.rec.sf.misc. In my
What is there in the way of SF in which refugees play a
large role? Off the top of my head only Cherryh occurs
to me, in _Downbelow Station_ and _Fires of Azeroth_.
Anything else?
Anyone care to take a crack at it?
Brian
--
It was the neap tide, when the baga venture out of their
holes to root for sandtatties. The waves whispered
rhythmically over the packed sand: haggisss, haggisss,
haggisss.
What, nobody mentioned "DP!" by Jack Vance?
Butch Malahide
2015-10-24 00:25:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Butch Malahide
Post by Brian M. Scott
A nice question was posted today in de.rec.sf.misc. In my
What is there in the way of SF in which refugees play a
large role? Off the top of my head only Cherryh occurs
to me, in _Downbelow Station_ and _Fires of Azeroth_.
Anything else?
Anyone care to take a crack at it?
Brian
--
It was the neap tide, when the baga venture out of their
holes to root for sandtatties. The waves whispered
rhythmically over the packed sand: haggisss, haggisss,
haggisss.
What, nobody mentioned "DP!" by Jack Vance?
"Rescue Party"? "Paradise Lost"?
Robert Carnegie
2015-10-23 11:44:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Brian M. Scott
A nice question was posted today in de.rec.sf.misc. In my
What is there in the way of SF in which refugees play a
large role? Off the top of my head only Cherryh occurs
to me, in _Downbelow Station_ and _Fires of Azeroth_.
Anything else?
Anyone care to take a crack at it?
There's this take:

"Arthur Dent, a man whose planet has been blown up, has been
having a remarkable effect on the universe. And the most
remarkable thing about this is that the only remarkable thing
about him as a person is that he is remarkably unremarkable,
in all respects other than that of having had his planet
blown up. And this, of course, is the nub of the matter,
because most of the things which stir the universe up in
any way are cause by dispossessed people. There are two ways
of accounting for this. One is to say that if everyone just
sat around at home nothing would ever happen - this is very
simple - the other is to say, as Oolon Colluphid has at great
length in his book 'Everything You Always Wanted to Know About
Guilt, But Were Too Ashamed to Ask', that every being in the
universe is tied to his birthplace by tiny invisible force
tendrils composed of little quantum packets of guilt. If you
travel far from your birthplace, these tendrils get stretched
and distorted. This compares with an ancient Arcturan Proverb
'However fast the body travels, the soul travels at the speed
of an Arcturan Mega-Camel.' This would mean, in these days of
hyperspace and Improbability Drive, that most people's souls
are wandering unprotected in deep space in a state of some
confusion; and this would account for a lot of things.
Similarly, if your birthplace is actually destroyed, or in
Arthur Dent's case demolished - ostensibly to make way for
a new hyperspace bypass - then these tendrils are severed and
flap about at random. There are no people to be fed or whales
to be saved; there is no washing up to be done. And these
flapping tendrils of guilt can seriously disturb the space-time
continuum."
Stephen Allcroft
2015-10-23 15:39:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Brian M. Scott
A nice question was posted today in de.rec.sf.misc. In my
What is there in the way of SF in which refugees play a
large role? Off the top of my head only Cherryh occurs
to me, in _Downbelow Station_ and _Fires of Azeroth_.
Look to Windward has a refugee in a major role.
A.G.McDowell
2015-10-23 17:40:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Brian M. Scott
A nice question was posted today in de.rec.sf.misc. In my
What is there in the way of SF in which refugees play a
large role? Off the top of my head only Cherryh occurs
to me, in _Downbelow Station_ and _Fires of Azeroth_.
Anything else?
Anyone care to take a crack at it?
Brian
The Fantasy short short, "Displaced Person" by Eric Frank Russell is
well worth a read, especially as it's only a web search away.

Quantum Mortis: A Man Disrupted, by Day and Rzasa is quite readable and
surprisingly sane. Here's a chunk from the Amazon synopsis: "he
independent planet of Rhysalan provides Sanctuary to 1,462
governments-in-exile. It is the responsibility of the Xenocriminology
and Alien Relations department of the Military Crimes Investigation
Division to keep a firm leash on the hundreds of thousands of xenos
residing on-planet.... " - which is quite a nice idea bit of
world-building, even if it does remind me a bit of Casablanca and
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thieves%27_World.
Brian M. Scott
2015-10-23 19:49:17 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 23 Oct 2015 18:40:39 +0100, "A.G.McDowell"
<andrew-***@o2.co.uk> wrote
in<news:n0drac$a1$***@dont-email.me> in rec.arts.sf.written:

[...]
Post by A.G.McDowell
Quantum Mortis: A Man Disrupted, by Day and Rzasa is
quite readable and surprisingly sane. Here's a chunk
from the Amazon synopsis: "he independent planet of
Rhysalan provides Sanctuary to 1,462
governments-in-exile. It is the responsibility of the
Xenocriminology and Alien Relations department of the
Military Crimes Investigation Division to keep a firm
leash on the hundreds of thousands of xenos residing
on-planet.... " - which is quite a nice idea bit of
world-building, even if it does remind me a bit of
Casablanca and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thieves%27_World.
It is an interesting idea, but I’ll be damned if I do
anything to help support Vox Day financially.

Brian
--
It was the neap tide, when the baga venture out of their
holes to root for sandtatties. The waves whispered
rhythmically over the packed sand: haggisss, haggisss,
haggisss.
Lynn McGuire
2015-10-23 20:15:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Brian M. Scott
A nice question was posted today in de.rec.sf.misc. In my
What is there in the way of SF in which refugees play a
large role? Off the top of my head only Cherryh occurs
to me, in _Downbelow Station_ and _Fires of Azeroth_.
Anything else?
Anyone care to take a crack at it?
Brian
"The Walking Dead" of course.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1607060760

Several of the Star Trek tv episodes, both original and Next Generation, had refugees. Guinan (Whoopi Goldberg), etc.

Lynn
Kevrob
2015-10-23 21:57:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by Brian M. Scott
A nice question was posted today in de.rec.sf.misc. In my
What is there in the way of SF in which refugees play a
large role? Off the top of my head only Cherryh occurs
to me, in _Downbelow Station_ and _Fires of Azeroth_.
Anything else?
Anyone care to take a crack at it?
Brian
"The Walking Dead" of course.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1607060760
Several of the Star Trek tv episodes, both original and Next Generation, had refugees. Guinan (Whoopi Goldberg), etc.
What about Kal-L, Last Son of Doomed Krypton?*
Nicely adopted and thoroughly Americanized, but he
started out as a refugee.

Kevin R

* ...or Kal-El, in later tellings. And the population
of Argo City, including cousin Kara Zor-El, whose TV
show debuts next week. Also, Krypto, last Dog of Krypton,
Beppo, last Monkey of Krypton, and the inhabitants of
Kandor, Last Shrunken City of Krypton, Dev-Em, Last Knave
of Krypton, and anybody who made it out of the Phantom Zone,
etc., etc., ad Weisinger.

(The Horse and the Cat were Terrans.)
Brian M. Scott
2015-10-23 23:06:20 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 23 Oct 2015 14:57:37 -0700 (PDT), Kevrob
<***@my-deja.com> wrote
in<news:7cf31d27-2f5e-4cf9-9b18-***@googlegroups.com>
in rec.arts.sf.written:

[...]
What about Kal-L, Last Son of Doomed Krypton?* Nicely
adopted and thoroughly Americanized, but he started out
as a refugee.
It does not meet the criterion: refugees as a group do not
play a large role.

[...]

Brian
--
It was the neap tide, when the baga venture out of their
holes to root for sandtatties. The waves whispered
rhythmically over the packed sand: haggisss, haggisss,
haggisss.
PeterM
2015-10-28 18:18:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by Brian M. Scott
On Fri, 23 Oct 2015 14:57:37 -0700 (PDT), Kevrob
What about Kal-L, Last Son of Doomed Krypton?* Nicely
adopted and thoroughly Americanized, but he started out
as a refugee.
It does not meet the criterion: refugees as a group do not
play a large role.
I don't know if that's true. Pre-Crisis, at least, the sheer number of people who survived Krypton's destruction boggled the mind. I think Superman's parents are the only ones who actually died with the planet.

If nothing else, the bottled city of Kandor probably qualifies.
Brian M. Scott
2015-10-28 18:52:00 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, 28 Oct 2015 11:18:25 -0700 (PDT), PeterM
On Friday, October 23, 2015 at 4:06:20 PM UTC-7, Brian M.
Post by Brian M. Scott
On Fri, 23 Oct 2015 14:57:37 -0700 (PDT), Kevrob
What about Kal-L, Last Son of Doomed Krypton?* Nicely
adopted and thoroughly Americanized, but he started out
as a refugee.
It does not meet the criterion: refugees as a group do not
play a large role.
I don't know if that's true. Pre-Crisis, at least, the
sheer number of people who survived Krypton's
destruction boggled the mind. I think Superman's parents
are the only ones who actually died with the planet.
If nothing else, the bottled city of Kandor probably
qualifies.
Wouldn’t know: my knowledge of the Superman mythos is
limited to the bit that I picked up as a kid in the 1950s.

Brian
--
It was the neap tide, when the baga venture out of their
holes to root for sandtatties. The waves whispered
rhythmically over the packed sand: haggisss, haggisss,
haggisss.
Kevrob
2015-10-28 19:25:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by Brian M. Scott
On Wed, 28 Oct 2015 11:18:25 -0700 (PDT), PeterM
On Friday, October 23, 2015 at 4:06:20 PM UTC-7, Brian M.
Post by Brian M. Scott
On Fri, 23 Oct 2015 14:57:37 -0700 (PDT), Kevrob
What about Kal-L, Last Son of Doomed Krypton?* Nicely
adopted and thoroughly Americanized, but he started out
as a refugee.
It does not meet the criterion: refugees as a group do not
play a large role.
I don't know if that's true. Pre-Crisis, at least, the
sheer number of people who survived Krypton's
destruction boggled the mind. I think Superman's parents
are the only ones who actually died with the planet.
If nothing else, the bottled city of Kandor probably
qualifies.
Wouldn't know: my knowledge of the Superman mythos is
limited to the bit that I picked up as a kid in the 1950s.
Kandor, shrunk by the "sapce pirate"" Braniac, later revealed as
a supercmputer in an android body, was introduced in the `50s.
(ACTION COMICS, V1 # 242, JUL 1958) 6 million inhabitants.
Ten issues later, (May 1959) we get Supergirl's hometown,
Argo City. More thousands, if not millions, but they all
died in space, years after Krypton perished, except for Kara Zor-El.

Kevin R
William December Starr
2015-10-29 03:50:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kevrob
Kandor, shrunk by the "sapce pirate"" Braniac, later revealed as
a supercmputer in an android body, was introduced in the `50s.
(ACTION COMICS, V1 # 242, JUL 1958) 6 million inhabitants.
Ten issues later, (May 1959) we get Supergirl's hometown,
Argo City. More thousands, if not millions, but they all
died in space, years after Krypton perished, except for Kara Zor-El.
Mighty suspicious if you ask me...

-- wds
Kevrob
2015-10-29 14:23:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by William December Starr
Post by Kevrob
Kandor, shrunk by the "sapce pirate"" Braniac, later revealed as
a supercmputer in an android body, was introduced in the `50s.
(ACTION COMICS, V1 # 242, JUL 1958) 6 million inhabitants.
Ten issues later, (May 1959) we get Supergirl's hometown,
Argo City. More thousands, if not millions, but they all
died in space, years after Krypton perished, except for Kara Zor-El.
Mighty suspicious if you ask me...
Obviously her teenage vandalism caused the meteor shower that
destroyed the lead shielding protecting the big old rock of
Kryptonite that Argo City was perched on. Juvenile delinquency must
have been as big a problem in Kryptonian cities as it was on
Earth in the 1950s. I wonder if they had a Fred-Wurth to blame
that on trashy emotion-movies, or tri-D picto-magazines?
Well, he'd be dead of K-poisoning by now, at least.

Kevin R
Robert Bannister
2015-10-30 03:07:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kevrob
Post by William December Starr
Post by Kevrob
Kandor, shrunk by the "sapce pirate"" Braniac, later revealed as
a supercmputer in an android body, was introduced in the `50s.
(ACTION COMICS, V1 # 242, JUL 1958) 6 million inhabitants.
Ten issues later, (May 1959) we get Supergirl's hometown,
Argo City. More thousands, if not millions, but they all
died in space, years after Krypton perished, except for Kara Zor-El.
Mighty suspicious if you ask me...
Obviously her teenage vandalism caused the meteor shower that
destroyed the lead shielding protecting the big old rock of
Kryptonite that Argo City was perched on. Juvenile delinquency must
have been as big a problem in Kryptonian cities as it was on
Earth in the 1950s. I wonder if they had a Fred-Wurth to blame
that on trashy emotion-movies, or tri-D picto-magazines?
Well, he'd be dead of K-poisoning by now, at least.
You'd have thought they could have called in their local superman/woman
to fix the problems.
--
Robert Bannister
Perth, Western Australia
Stephen Harker
2015-10-30 04:44:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robert Bannister
Post by Kevrob
Post by William December Starr
Post by Kevrob
issues later, (May 1959) we get Supergirl's hometown,
Argo City. More thousands, if not millions, but they all
died in space, years after Krypton perished, except for Kara Zor-El.
Mighty suspicious if you ask me...
Obviously her teenage vandalism caused the meteor shower that
destroyed the lead shielding protecting the big old rock of
Kryptonite that Argo City was perched on. Juvenile delinquency must
have been as big a problem in Kryptonian cities as it was on
Earth in the 1950s. I wonder if they had a Fred-Wurth to blame
that on trashy emotion-movies, or tri-D picto-magazines?
Well, he'd be dead of K-poisoning by now, at least.
You'd have thought they could have called in their local
superman/woman to fix the problems.
I thought it was Bicycle RepairMan they called in to fix problems.
--
Stephen Harker ***@adfa.edu.au
PEMS http://sjharker.customer.netspace.net.au/
***@ADFA
Kevrob
2015-10-30 13:58:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Stephen Harker
Post by Robert Bannister
Post by Kevrob
Post by William December Starr
Post by Kevrob
issues later, (May 1959) we get Supergirl's hometown,
Argo City. More thousands, if not millions, but they all
died in space, years after Krypton perished, except for Kara Zor-El.
Mighty suspicious if you ask me...
Obviously her teenage vandalism caused the meteor shower that
destroyed the lead shielding protecting the big old rock of
Kryptonite that Argo City was perched on. Juvenile delinquency must
have been as big a problem in Kryptonian cities as it was on
Earth in the 1950s. I wonder if they had a Fred-Wurth to blame
that on trashy emotion-movies, or tri-D picto-magazines?
Well, he'd be dead of K-poisoning by now, at least.
You'd have thought they could have called in their local
superman/woman to fix the problems.
I thought it was Bicycle RepairMan they called in to fix problems.
There's never a Green Lantern around when you need one.

[See SUPERMAN V1 #257, OCT 1972
http://www.comics.org/issue/25517/
The Fabulous World of Krypton
"The Greatest Green Lantern of All"
Elliot S! Maggin, Dick Dillin, Dick Giordano,
from an idea by Neal Adams]
Lawrence Watt-Evans
2015-10-28 19:27:01 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, 28 Oct 2015 11:18:25 -0700 (PDT), PeterM
Post by PeterM
Post by Brian M. Scott
On Fri, 23 Oct 2015 14:57:37 -0700 (PDT), Kevrob
What about Kal-L, Last Son of Doomed Krypton?* Nicely
adopted and thoroughly Americanized, but he started out
as a refugee.
It does not meet the criterion: refugees as a group do not
play a large role.
I don't know if that's true. Pre-Crisis, at least, the sheer number of people who survived Krypton's destruction boggled the mind. I think Superman's parents are the only ones who actually died with the planet.
They didn't die, though. They wound up in the Survival Zone, which is
like the Phantom Zone except the projector is yellow and looks like a
lamp, instead of red and shaped like a headlight, and the mists are
blue instead of purple.

The Science Council definitely died, though.
Post by PeterM
If nothing else, the bottled city of Kandor probably qualifies.
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William Vetter
2015-10-24 08:52:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by Brian M. Scott
A nice question was posted today in de.rec.sf.misc. In my
What is there in the way of SF in which refugees play a
large role? Off the top of my head only Cherryh occurs
to me, in _Downbelow Station_ and _Fires of Azeroth_.
Anything else?
Anyone care to take a crack at it?
Brian
"The Walking Dead" of course.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1607060760
Several of the Star Trek tv episodes, both original and Next Generation, had
refugees. Guinan (Whoopi Goldberg), etc.
If we talk about movies, there was one a few years ago District 9,
about a refugee camp of aliens in South Africa.
Ted Nolan <tednolan>
2015-10-24 15:03:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by William Vetter
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by Brian M. Scott
A nice question was posted today in de.rec.sf.misc. In my
What is there in the way of SF in which refugees play a
large role? Off the top of my head only Cherryh occurs
to me, in _Downbelow Station_ and _Fires of Azeroth_.
Anything else?
Anyone care to take a crack at it?
Brian
"The Walking Dead" of course.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1607060760
Several of the Star Trek tv episodes, both original and Next Generation, had
refugees. Guinan (Whoopi Goldberg), etc.
If we talk about movies, there was one a few years ago District 9,
about a refugee camp of aliens in South Africa.
Well, if we add movies, there's "Alien Nation" & "Wall-E". If we add
TV, there's "Alf".
--
------
columbiaclosings.com
What's not in Columbia anymore..
Martin
2015-10-23 20:16:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Brian M. Scott
A nice question was posted today in de.rec.sf.misc. In my
What is there in the way of SF in which refugees play a
large role? Off the top of my head only Cherryh occurs
to me, in _Downbelow Station_ and _Fires of Azeroth_.
Anything else?
Anyone care to take a crack at it?
Brian
--
It was the neap tide, when the baga venture out of their
holes to root for sandtatties. The waves whispered
rhythmically over the packed sand: haggisss, haggisss,
haggisss.
Michael McCollum, The Sails of Tau Ceti
Lynn McGuire
2015-10-23 20:22:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Brian M. Scott
A nice question was posted today in de.rec.sf.misc. In my
What is there in the way of SF in which refugees play a
large role? Off the top of my head only Cherryh occurs
to me, in _Downbelow Station_ and _Fires of Azeroth_.
Anything else?
Anyone care to take a crack at it?
Brian
Heinlein's "Methuselah's Children"
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0671577808

Heinlein's "Between Planets"
http://www.amazon.com/Between-Planets-Robert-A-Heinlein/dp/1439133212/

Lynn
lal_truckee
2015-10-26 23:09:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lynn McGuire
What is there in the way of SF in which refugees play a
large role?
Heinlein's "Methuselah's Children"
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0671577808
Heinlein's "Between Planets"
http://www.amazon.com/Between-Planets-Robert-A-Heinlein/dp/1439133212/
The future farmers of _Farmer in the Sky_ are opportunity refugees.
Kevrob
2015-10-28 19:42:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by lal_truckee
Post by Lynn McGuire
What is there in the way of SF in which refugees play a
large role?
Heinlein's "Methuselah's Children"
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0671577808
Heinlein's "Between Planets"
http://www.amazon.com/Between-Planets-Robert-A-Heinlein/dp/1439133212/
The future farmers of _Farmer in the Sky_ are opportunity refugees.
If my high school had had a chapter of
Future Farmers in the Sky, I might have joined it.

Kevin R
PeterM
2015-10-23 21:40:25 UTC
Permalink
The cannibal army in Lucifer's Hammer was made up of refugees who survived the destruction wrought by the tidal waves.

World War Z dealt a lot with refugees all over the world. They were instrumental in spreading the zombie plague, before anyone really understood what was going on.
Kevrob
2015-10-23 22:08:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by PeterM
The cannibal army in Lucifer's Hammer was made up of refugees who survived the destruction wrought by the tidal waves.
World War Z dealt a lot with refugees all over the world. They were instrumental in spreading the zombie plague, before anyone really understood what was going on.
There's refugees all over the place in S M Stirling's work.
The Island of Nantucket and the barque USCGC Eagle's crew are
all "lost in time." The same situation as the 1632 novels.
The other books in the Emberverse (DIES THE FIRE, etc) are
full of refugees, and their descendants as is THE PESHAWAR LANCERS.

Kevin R
Brian M. Scott
2015-10-23 23:08:20 UTC
Permalink
On Thu, 22 Oct 2015 18:10:17 -0400, "Brian M. Scott"
Post by Brian M. Scott
A nice question was posted today in de.rec.sf.misc. In my
What is there in the way of SF in which refugees play a
large role? Off the top of my head only Cherryh occurs
to me, in _Downbelow Station_ and _Fires of Azeroth_.
Anything else?
Anyone care to take a crack at it?
A lot of the suggestions are off point. Refugees as a
group are to play a large role; the mere fact that a major
character is a refugee is not enough. Bear in mind that
the question was undoubtedly stimulated by the current
refugee crisis in Europe and especially Germany.

Brian
--
It was the neap tide, when the baga venture out of their
holes to root for sandtatties. The waves whispered
rhythmically over the packed sand: haggisss, haggisss,
haggisss.
Butch Malahide
2015-10-24 06:56:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Brian M. Scott
Post by Brian M. Scott
A nice question was posted today in de.rec.sf.misc. In my
What is there in the way of SF in which refugees play a
large role? Off the top of my head only Cherryh occurs
to me, in _Downbelow Station_ and _Fires of Azeroth_.
Anything else?
Anyone care to take a crack at it?
A lot of the suggestions are off point. Refugees as a
group are to play a large role; the mere fact that a major
character is a refugee is not enough. Bear in mind that
the question was undoubtedly stimulated by the current
refugee crisis in Europe and especially Germany.
"Guesting Time" by R. A. Lafferty?
Robert Carnegie
2015-10-25 03:46:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Brian M. Scott
On Thu, 22 Oct 2015 18:10:17 -0400, "Brian M. Scott"
Post by Brian M. Scott
A nice question was posted today in de.rec.sf.misc. In my
What is there in the way of SF in which refugees play a
large role? Off the top of my head only Cherryh occurs
to me, in _Downbelow Station_ and _Fires of Azeroth_.
Anything else?
Anyone care to take a crack at it?
A lot of the suggestions are off point. Refugees as a
group are to play a large role; the mere fact that a major
character is a refugee is not enough. Bear in mind that
the question was undoubtedly stimulated by the current
refugee crisis in Europe and especially Germany.
But refugees tend to be individuals. They may or may
not have a family with them, but they are by definition
no longer in their former community, whether it was
annihilated, decimated, or threatened - that is the
situation that defines them as refugees.

Having said that - in one episode in Charles Stross's
_Accelerando_, the community of recognisable human
beings exists in the outer solar system, threatened
by the mass of supercomputer intelligence that has
taken over and absorbed the inner-system planets.
Reconstructed personality records of deceased
humans throughout history are transmitted serially
from the inner system, and the human community
has a policy of reincarnating them, but it is
suspected that these are a means for the inner
system to influence the human democracy and
some the personalities may even be fictional.
J. Moreno
2015-10-25 04:40:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robert Carnegie
But refugees tend to be individuals. They may or may
not have a family with them, but they are by definition
no longer in their former community, whether it was
annihilated, decimated, or threatened - that is the
situation that defines them as refugees.
Do you mean to say that scenarios like Henderson's _The People_ or
Heinlein's _Methuselah's Children_ aren't actual refugee's, or just that
cases of larger communities being displaced and sticking together are rare?
--
J. Moreno
Robert Carnegie
2015-10-25 14:48:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by J. Moreno
Post by Robert Carnegie
But refugees tend to be individuals. They may or may
not have a family with them, but they are by definition
no longer in their former community, whether it was
annihilated, decimated, or threatened - that is the
situation that defines them as refugees.
Do you mean to say that scenarios like Henderson's _The People_ or
Heinlein's _Methuselah's Children_ aren't actual refugee's, or just that
cases of larger communities being displaced and sticking together are rare?
The latter, in particular. In a non sci-fi case, that
would be like the population of a village or a town
executing an orderly organised evacuation. I haven't
studied this activity but it seems to be more usual -
at least for a war rather than a natural disaster -
that people travel by their own means and at their
own speed, and scatter out so as not to offer the
enemy a single target to hit. But you might travel
in a group for mutual defence.

When the refugees get somewhere, they may be
dispersed amongst local people's homes, or penned
up in an immigration camp. Although, in a foreign
country, you probably seek out your own people,
anyway. Unless some of them are agents of the
faction that you were escaping from.

I think I was taught at school in around 1979
that the Italian Renaissance was produced by
the intellectual activity, and the library
books, of refugees from Constantinople.
I wonder if that is true. You get told some
whoppers in history class.

I don't think I've read all the stories but
I thought The People /were/ dispersed. On the
other hand, the Methuselah story puts everyone
in one boat, so to speak; as long as they have
nowhere to settle, they are stuck with each
other's company.
Greg Goss
2015-10-25 18:57:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by J. Moreno
Do you mean to say that scenarios like Henderson's _The People_ or
Heinlein's _Methuselah's Children_ aren't actual refugee's, or just that
cases of larger communities being displaced and sticking together are rare?
I don't think I've read all the stories but
I thought The People /were/ dispersed.
There were at least two fairly large communities, one successful, one
pretty dismal. But most of the stories were about individuals on
their own who didn't know about the main community. Many of the
stories concluded with the loner getting into contact with that main
and growing community.
--
We are geeks. Resistance is voltage over current.
Joe Bernstein
2015-11-01 17:16:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by Brian M. Scott
Post by Brian M. Scott
A nice question was posted today in de.rec.sf.misc. In my
What is there in the way of SF in which refugees play a
large role? Off the top of my head only Cherryh occurs
to me, in _Downbelow Station_ and _Fires of Azeroth_.
Anything else?
Anyone care to take a crack at it?
A lot of the suggestions are off point. Refugees as a
group are to play a large role; the mere fact that a major
character is a refugee is not enough. Bear in mind that
the question was undoubtedly stimulated by the current
refugee crisis in Europe and especially Germany.
OK, so that eliminates Susan Palwick's <The Necessary Beggar>, which
stars a family who go with their ostracised (meaning exiled) son to
another universe, that being ours. Except that I think they actually
end up in a refugee camp here. Well, it's been on my re-reading list
anyway.

The suggestion of Maureen McHugh's <Mission Child> is also problematic,
since the protagonist is almost the only survivor of a genocide.
(Although for some reason a refugee camp exists where she spends some
time, as the suggester noted.) Refugees as a sign of ineptitude at
mass murder, huh?

It's been quite a while since I read James Tiptree's <Brightness Falls
from the Air>, but isn't there a planetload of refugees somewhere in
its backstory, furnishing a red herring or two in the mystery plot?
This almost exactly meets your criteria, in fact; there's a large
group of refugees and they matter to the plot, but there's no major
character who's a refugee.

Joe Bernstein
--
Joe Bernstein, tax preparer and writer <***@sfbooks.com>
David DeLaney
2015-11-01 17:31:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Joe Bernstein
Post by Brian M. Scott
What is there in the way of SF in which refugees play a
large role? Off the top of my head only Cherryh occurs
to me, in _Downbelow Station_ and _Fires of Azeroth_.
A lot of the suggestions are off point. Refugees as a
group are to play a large role; the mere fact that a major
character is a refugee is not enough. Bear in mind that
the question was undoubtedly stimulated by the current
refugee crisis in Europe and especially Germany.
It's been quite a while since I read James Tiptree's <Brightness Falls
from the Air>, but isn't there a planetload of refugees somewhere in
its backstory, furnishing a red herring or two in the mystery plot?
This almost exactly meets your criteria, in fact; there's a large
group of refugees and they matter to the plot, but there's no major
character who's a refugee.
Oh, and reading this reminds me that Sucharitkul's Inquestor series also had
whole planetfuls of refugees being towed and shipped hither and yon - the
result of "if you play makrugh there is only one ending: an inhabited planet
is put to death". Makrugh being The game of the Inquestors amongst themselves,
limited solely to their clan of Ton, conspicuous consumption at nearly the
highest possible level. It's plot relevant in various places; I _think_ the
lightweaver who's part of the framing story in Utopia Hunters (?) lives on a
planet that was settled by such refugees (which isn't all that uncommon, you
see).

Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting thru EarthLink - "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://gatekeeper.vic.com/~dbd/ -net.legends/Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.
James Nicoll
2015-11-01 22:05:22 UTC
Permalink
A number of Andre Norton novels feature the Dipple, which is where the refugees
of a vast interstellar war were dumped and forgotten.
--
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Joseph Nebus
2015-11-02 04:07:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by James Nicoll
A number of Andre Norton novels feature the Dipple, which is where the refugees
of a vast interstellar war were dumped and forgotten.
I have little experience reading Norton. The name 'Dipple'
sounds to me like it's turning 'DP' into 'DP Land' and from there to
a word. Is that supported by the text?
--
Joseph Nebus
Math: The Set Tour: One Big One Plus Some Rubble http://wp.me/p1RYhY-T1
Humor: What I Learned About Curing Werewolves And Danes http://wp.me/p37lb5-11v
--------------------------------------------------------+---------------------
Kay Shapero
2015-11-02 05:00:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by James Nicoll
number of Andre Norton novels feature the Dipple, which is where the
refugees f a vast interstellar war were dumped and forgotten.
I have little experience reading Norton. The name 'Dipple' sounds to
me like it's turning 'DP' into 'DP Land' and from there to a word. Is
that supported by the text?
I got the impression it was short for "Displaced People" who had turned
out to be displaced far longer than anybody originally intended.
--
Kay Shapero
Address munged, try my first name at kayshapero dot net.
Brian M. Scott
2015-11-02 05:02:47 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 2 Nov 2015 04:07:13 +0000 (UTC), Joseph Nebus
Post by Joseph Nebus
Post by James Nicoll
A number of Andre Norton novels feature the Dipple,
which is where the refugees of a vast interstellar war
were dumped and forgotten.
I have little experience reading Norton. The name
'Dipple' sounds to me like it's turning 'DP' into 'DP
Land' and from there to a word. Is that supported by
the text?
I’m sure that it’s from DP ‘displaced person’, but I doubt
that there’s any connection with ‘land’; such a development
would be quite abnormal. There may, however, be an echo of
the World War II slang term <repple depple> for
‘replacement depot’; see

<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Replacement_depot>

for more on the latter.

Brian
--
It was the neap tide, when the baga venture out of their
holes to root for sandtatties. The waves whispered
rhythmically over the packed sand: haggisss, haggisss,
haggisss.
Wolffan
2015-10-24 10:08:57 UTC
Permalink
A nice question was posted today in de.rec.sf.misc. In my
What is there in the way of SF in which refugees play a
large role? Off the top of my head only Cherryh occurs
to me, in _Downbelow Station_ and _Fires of Azeroth_.
Anything else?
Anyone care to take a crack at it?
Brian
James White’s ‘Cities in Flight’ books; entire cities bail from Earth
and go roaming the galaxy ‘cause anything is better than staying put.
Ted Nolan <tednolan>
2015-10-24 15:04:28 UTC
Permalink
A nice question was posted today in de.rec.sf.misc. In my
What is there in the way of SF in which refugees play a
large role? Off the top of my head only Cherryh occurs
to me, in _Downbelow Station_ and _Fires of Azeroth_.
Anything else?
Anyone care to take a crack at it?
Brian
James White’s ‘Cities in Flight’ books; entire cities bail from Earth
and go roaming the galaxy ‘cause anything is better than staying put.
White ==> Blish
--
------
columbiaclosings.com
What's not in Columbia anymore..
Wolffan
2015-10-24 19:46:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Post by Wolffan
A nice question was posted today in de.rec.sf.misc. In my
What is there in the way of SF in which refugees play a
large role? Off the top of my head only Cherryh occurs
to me, in _Downbelow Station_ and _Fires of Azeroth_.
Anything else?
Anyone care to take a crack at it?
Brian
James White’s ‘Cities in Flight’ books; entire cities bail from Earth
and go roaming the galaxy ‘cause anything is better than staying put.
White ==> Blish
you are, of course, correct. dunno what I was thinking.
William December Starr
2015-10-25 22:01:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Brian M. Scott
Anyone care to take a crack at it?
The Cities and their inhabitants in Blish's Cities in Flight
sequence?

Also, the teenage female protagonist in Stross' IRON SUNRISE, and
her family, were relocated from a big bright shiny space habitat
that was due to get irradiated by the wavefront from the titular
event. She was really unhappy at going from the verge of adulthood
to living in a culture where the age of majority was thirty (and in
quite un-luxurious conditions there).

-- wds
djinn
2015-10-26 20:10:11 UTC
Permalink
Zenna Henderson's stories about The People were about refugees.
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