Discussion:
OT: Stephen Colbert proves his fannish chops.
(too old to reply)
Peter Trei
2019-08-17 16:11:50 UTC
Permalink
(SFW).

Its nice to see a major celebrity who is not afraid to nerd out on LOTR trivia,
on national TV.

pt
David DeLaney
2019-08-17 18:26:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Trei
http://youtu.be/3jKC0Cbo7lc (SFW).
Its nice to see a major celebrity who is not afraid to nerd out on LOTR
trivia, on national TV.
I'll see that and raise you a <
>,
off the top of his head.

Dave, and he's also got Captain Marvel's shield and, I think, Sting
--
\/David DeLaney posting thru EarthLink - "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
my gatekeeper archives are no longer accessible :( / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.
Dorothy J Heydt
2019-08-17 19:42:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by David DeLaney
Post by Peter Trei
http://youtu.be/3jKC0Cbo7lc (SFW).
Its nice to see a major celebrity who is not afraid to nerd out on LOTR
trivia, on national TV.
I'll see that and raise you a < http://youtu.be/NJ-S6e1_jX8 >,
off the top of his head.
He's a Tolkien expert. I shall have to look at those links -- I
generally don't watch him, because I generally have kdfc.com
playing and don't want to turn it off.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/
Kevrob
2019-08-18 00:16:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by David DeLaney
Post by Peter Trei
http://youtu.be/3jKC0Cbo7lc (SFW).
Its nice to see a major celebrity who is not afraid to nerd out on LOTR
trivia, on national TV.
I'll see that and raise you a < http://youtu.be/NJ-S6e1_jX8 >,
off the top of his head.
Dave, and he's also got Captain
/M/a/r/v/e/l/ America's
Post by David DeLaney
shield and, I think, Sting
and Anduril, to boot.

https://gemr.com/blog/celebrity-inventory-stephen-colbert/

SC schools James Franco on Middle Earth lore.



One of us! One of us! Gooble Gobble!

Kevin R
Peter Trei
2019-08-18 03:33:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kevrob
Post by David DeLaney
Post by Peter Trei
http://youtu.be/3jKC0Cbo7lc (SFW).
Its nice to see a major celebrity who is not afraid to nerd out on LOTR
trivia, on national TV.
I'll see that and raise you a < http://youtu.be/NJ-S6e1_jX8 >,
off the top of his head.
Dave, and he's also got Captain
/M/a/r/v/e/l/ America's
Post by David DeLaney
shield and, I think, Sting
and Anduril, to boot.
https://gemr.com/blog/celebrity-inventory-stephen-colbert/
SC schools James Franco on Middle Earth lore.
http://youtu.be/iNScstl1RMw
One of us! One of us! Gooble Gobble!
Kevin R
Also:



pt
thnidu
2019-08-19 03:03:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Trei
http://youtu.be/3jKC0Cbo7lc (SFW).
Its nice to see a major celebrity who is not afraid to nerd out on LOTR trivia,
on national TV.
pt
But he mispronounces "Thranduil" badly. It should be two syllables, not three, accented on the first: THRAHN-duyl, with the "uy" diphthong as in Spanish "muy" ("very").
thnidu
2019-08-19 03:04:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Trei
http://youtu.be/3jKC0Cbo7lc (SFW).
Its nice to see a major celebrity who is not afraid to nerd out on LOTR trivia,
on national TV.
pt
But he mispronounces "Thranduil" badly. It should be two syllables, not three, accented on the first: THRAHN-duyl, with the "uy" diphthong as in Spanish "muy" ("very").
Kevrob
2019-08-19 05:51:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by thnidu
Post by Peter Trei
http://youtu.be/3jKC0Cbo7lc (SFW).
Its nice to see a major celebrity who is not afraid to nerd out on LOTR trivia,
on national TV.
pt
But he mispronounces "Thranduil" badly. It should be two syllables, not three, accented on the first: THRAHN-duyl, with the "uy" diphthong as in Spanish "muy" ("very").
Like THRAN-dweel?

One can know "book-larnin'" but be awful pronouncing foreign tongues.

Colbert at least knows the distinction between Sindarin and Quenya.

More Colbert geekery. (With video clip)

https://news.avclub.com/liv-tyler-makes-all-of-stephen-colberts-elvish-dreams-c-1827569339


Kevin R
thnidu
2019-08-19 15:09:58 UTC
Permalink
Yes, he does, and for, let's say, an educated non-specialist he's pretty good.
(Kevrob)
Like THRAN-dweel?
<<<<<

Pretty close, but it's about equally divided between the "oo" and the "ee", a combination we don't have in English. But "THRAHN-dweel"* would be good enough pronunciation from someone who's not a language specialist or super-geek, as I am (PhD) and Colbert is not (AFAIK).

* AH as in "bar" or "father", not "cat" or "mattress", which is the vowel Colbert uses.

Mark A. Mandel
a.k.a. Dr. Whom: Consulting Linguist, Grammarian, Orthoëpist, and Philological Busybody
Quadibloc
2019-08-19 16:01:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by thnidu
* AH as in "bar" or "father", not "cat" or "mattress", which is the vowel Colbert uses.
Yes, cat, mattress, bat, mat, atom, lather, rather... all use the same a.

On the other hand, bar, car, tar, lark, spark all use the same a.

However, the a in father is the same as the o in often, bother or the aw in
awning, so that's a third vowel.

John Savard
Dorothy J Heydt
2019-08-19 16:26:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by thnidu
Post by thnidu
* AH as in "bar" or "father", not "cat" or "mattress", which is the
vowel Colbert uses.
Yes, cat, mattress, bat, mat, atom, lather, rather... all use the same a.
On the other hand, bar, car, tar, lark, spark all use the same a.
Note also that all the examples you've given all drop the [r] in
an arhotic dialect. In a rhotic dialect they're all pronounced.
In an arhotic dialect, "bar" sounds the same as "bah". It's a
low mid vowel (described in terms of what position the tongue takes
to form it).
Post by thnidu
However, the a in father is the same as the o in often, bother or the aw in
awning,
Not in my dialect (western US, subdialect San Francisco Bay
Area), it isn't.
Post by thnidu
so that's a third vowel.
No it isn't, if it's the same as the o in "often", then it's the
same vowel and that makes two. Back in the linguistics
department we called it "open o", and it's a low *back* vowel.

Do I remember correctly that you live in Canada? This would
explain the arhotic [r], that is pronounced only before a word
beginning with a vowel. As to pronouncing the [a] in "father"
like the [o] in "often," I'd have to listen to you speak to
figure that out. Listening to it in my mind's ear, it sounds
very strange.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/
David DeLaney
2019-08-26 06:00:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Quadibloc
However, the a in father is the same as the o in often, bother or the aw in
awning, so that's a third vowel.
... None of those three are the same, John.

Dave, I take it you do not sing... and may have been infected by some sort of
French accent, come to think of it, by virtue of being middle-Canadian
--
\/David DeLaney posting thru EarthLink - "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
my gatekeeper archives are no longer accessible :( / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.
Kevrob
2019-08-19 17:23:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by thnidu
Yes, he does, and for, let's say, an educated non-specialist he's pretty good.
(Kevrob)
Like THRAN-dweel?
<<<<<
Pretty close, but it's about equally divided between the "oo" and the "ee", a combination we don't have in English. But "THRAHN-dweel"* would be good enough pronunciation from someone who's not a language specialist or super-geek, as I am (PhD) and Colbert is not (AFAIK).
So, is the "oo" before the "ee" a schwaw, but elided? ["do and wheel," run together?]
Post by thnidu
* AH as in "bar" or "father", not "cat" or "mattress", which is the vowel Colbert uses.
Mark A. Mandel
a.k.a. Dr. Whom: Consulting Linguist, Grammarian, Orthoëpist, and Philological Busybody
I would pronouce "father" (my Dad) and "fother" [temporarily mend a leak on a
wooden ship] the same way. Merriam-Webster agrees. I'm from the US Northeast,
raised on Long Island.

Kevin R
thnidu
2019-08-19 22:18:17 UTC
Permalink
Nothing is elided here: that means "dropped, left out". No shwas either. Try this: say the pronoun "I". Repeat it a few times, going slower and s.l.o.w.e.r each time. You should hear the two vowels that go into that diphthong, "ahh" and "ee", and how they melt into each other in the middle. Now instead say "oo-ee" in the s.a.m.e s.l.o.w w.a.y, and keep repeating it, a little faster each time, being careful not to drop either of the component vowels. You should hear yourself approaching this "oo+ee" diphthong, which English doesn't have.

You may not be able to get it to go as quickly as "I", both because it's unfamiliar and because "oo" and "ee" are almost opposites: you have to move your tongue from the back of your mouth to the front while also moving your lips from pursed to being spread. But you should be able to hear and feel approximately how it sounds and feels.

Good luck! Elen síla lúmenn' omentielvo.

Mark Mandel
Post by thnidu
Yes, he does, and for, let's say, an educated non-specialist he's pretty good.
(Kevrob)
Like THRAN-dweel?
<<<<<
Pretty close, but it's about equally divided between the "oo" and the "ee", a combination we don't have in English. But "THRAHN-dweel"* would be good enough pronunciation from someone who's not a language specialist or super-geek, as I am (PhD) and Colbert is not (AFAIK).
So, is the "oo" before the "ee" a schwaw, but elided? ["do and wheel," run together?]
Post by thnidu
* AH as in "bar" or "father", not "cat" or "mattress", which is the vowel Colbert uses.
Mark A. Mandel
a.k.a. Dr. Whom: Consulting Linguist, Grammarian, Orthoëpist, and Philological Busybody
I would pronouce "father" (my Dad) and "fother" [temporarily mend a leak on a
wooden ship] the same way. Merriam-Webster agrees. I'm from the US Northeast,
raised on Long Island.

Kevin R
Kevrob
2019-08-20 00:52:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by thnidu
Nothing is elided here: that means "dropped, left out". No shwas either. Try this: say the pronoun "I". Repeat it a few times, going slower and s.l.o.w.e.r each time. You should hear the two vowels that go into that diphthong, "ahh" and "ee",
English "I" with 2 vowel sounds? !?!
Post by thnidu
and how they melt into each other in the middle. Now instead say "oo-ee" in the >s.a.m.e s.l.o.w w.a.y, and keep repeating it, a little faster each time, >being careful not to drop either of the component vowels. You should hear >yourself approaching this "oo+ee" diphthong, which English doesn't have.
I can say Spanish "muy" alright.
Post by thnidu
You may not be able to get it to go as quickly as "I", both because it's unfamiliar and because "oo" and "ee" are almost opposites: you have to move your tongue from the back of your mouth to the front while also moving your lips from pursed to being spread. But you should be able to hear and feel approximately how it sounds and feels.
Good luck! Elen síla lúmenn' omentielvo.
Mark Mandel
Now, what's with the top-posting?
[snip]

Kevin R
thnidu
2019-08-20 04:24:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by thnidu
Nothing is elided here: that means "dropped, left out". No shwas either. Try this: say the pronoun "I". Repeat it a few times, going slower and s.l.o.w.e.r each time. You should hear the two vowels that go into that diphthong, "ahh" and "ee",
English "I" with 2 vowel sounds? !?!

Yep, but they're not separate. Do you hear them?
Post by thnidu
and how they melt into each other in the middle. Now instead say "oo-ee" in the >s.a.m.e s.l.o.w w.a.y, and keep repeating it, a little faster each time, >being careful not to drop either of the component vowels. You should hear >yourself approaching . "oo+ee" diphthong, which English doesn't have.
I can say Spanish "muy" alright.
Post by thnidu
You may not be able to get it to go as quickly as "I", both because it's unfamiliar and because "oo" and "ee" are almost opposites: you have to move your tongue from the back of your mouth to the front while also moving your lips from pursed to being spread. But you should be able to hear and feel approximately how it sounds and feels.
Good luck! Elen síla lúmenn' omentielvo.
Mark Mandel
Now, what's with the top-posting?

¿ƃuᴉʇsod-doʇ ʇɐɥM
David DeLaney
2019-08-26 06:07:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kevrob
Post by thnidu
Nothing is elided here: that means "dropped, left out". No shwas either. Try
this: say the pronoun "I". Repeat it a few times, going slower and s.l.o.w.e.r
each time. You should hear the two vowels that go into that diphthong, "ahh"
and "ee",
Post by Kevrob
English "I" with 2 vowel sounds? !?!
Yes. It's a diphthong. One of many English has.

You can usually hear them most clearly in song; a lot of, for example, country
singers don't 'turn' the diphthong all the way at the end, so end up singing
the second vowel rather longer than is needed. Or putting one in where there
ought to be a monophthong, like "whehhh-uuuurr ooo-unn is nuh-eee-duhd", to use
an example ripped fromm my previous sentence.

"I" is the diphthong "ahh-eee". "O", like the name of the letter, also is -
"ohh-ooo". As is the name of letter "A", "aay-eee". In normal usage, they'ee
turned at the end of the combined vowel; turning them at the beginning, or in
the middle, sounds odd.
Post by Kevrob
I can say Spanish "muy" alright.
That'll do it!

Dave, English also has (at least) two triphthongs
--
\/David DeLaney posting thru EarthLink - "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
my gatekeeper archives are no longer accessible :( / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.
Dorothy J Heydt
2019-08-26 13:08:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by thnidu
Post by Kevrob
Post by thnidu
Nothing is elided here: that means "dropped, left out". No shwas either. Try
this: say the pronoun "I". Repeat it a few times, going slower and s.l.o.w.e.r
each time. You should hear the two vowels that go into that diphthong, "ahh"
and "ee",
Post by Kevrob
English "I" with 2 vowel sounds? !?!
Yes. It's a diphthong. One of many English has.
True. One of the effects of the Great Vowel Shift was to turn
all long vowels into diphthongs.
Post by thnidu
You can usually hear them most clearly in song; a lot of, for example, country
singers don't 'turn' the diphthong all the way at the end, so end up singing
the second vowel rather longer than is needed. Or putting one in where there
ought to be a monophthong, like "whehhh-uuuurr ooo-unn is nuh-eee-duhd", to use
an example ripped from my previous sentence.
"I" is the diphthong "ahh-eee". "O", like the name of the letter, also is -
"ohh-ooo". As is the name of letter "A", "aay-eee". In normal usage, they'ee
turned at the end of the combined vowel; turning them at the beginning, or in
the middle, sounds odd.
Post by Kevrob
I can say Spanish "muy" alright.
That'll do it!
Dave, English also has (at least) two triphthongs
There's a moment in Robert MacNeil's _The Story of English_ in
which a linguist, who grew up in the Appalachians, is describing
his own native dialect, and uses the word "flower" as an example:
"It's a triphthong. Flah-uh-urrr."
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/
David DeLaney
2019-08-29 20:47:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by David DeLaney
Dave, English also has (at least) two triphthongs
There's a moment in Robert MacNeil's _The Story of English_ in
which a linguist, who grew up in the Appalachians, is describing
"It's a triphthong. Flah-uh-urrr."
Yep. The other one I know of offhand is "fire", fahh-eee-urr.

Dave, unless you're from Georgia, in which case you might stop the cahr by the
tahr fahr to set and watch a spell
--
\/David DeLaney posting thru EarthLink - "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
my gatekeeper archives are no longer accessible :( / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.
Dorothy J Heydt
2019-08-29 21:58:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by David DeLaney
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by David DeLaney
Dave, English also has (at least) two triphthongs
There's a moment in Robert MacNeil's _The Story of English_ in
which a linguist, who grew up in the Appalachians, is describing
"It's a triphthong. Flah-uh-urrr."
Yep. The other one I know of offhand is "fire", fahh-eee-urr.
Dave, unless you're from Georgia, in which case you might stop the cahr by the
tahr fahr to set and watch a spell
And there's the one about the Boston accent, (where I'm using '@'
here to represent 'a as in cat', since it's the closest I can get
to the ae digraph):

***@k the c@ in the ***@vad ***@d.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/
Kevrob
2019-10-23 12:01:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by David DeLaney
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by David DeLaney
Dave, English also has (at least) two triphthongs
There's a moment in Robert MacNeil's _The Story of English_ in
which a linguist, who grew up in the Appalachians, is describing
"It's a triphthong. Flah-uh-urrr."
Yep. The other one I know of offhand is "fire", fahh-eee-urr.
Dave, unless you're from Georgia, in which case you might stop the cahr by the
tahr fahr to set and watch a spell
here to represent 'a as in cat', since it's the closest I can get
See:

https://www.csmonitor.com/The-Culture/Verbal-Energy/2015/0910/We-finally-pahk-the-cah-on-Hahvahd-Yahd

https://www.bostonglobe.com/ideas/2015/08/25/blame-harvard-for-this-annoying-boston-accent-test/rvyip8zcAnwNmj1qpHtZqM/story.html

https://www.americaninno.com/boston/pahk-the-cah-in-hahvahd-yahd-researchers-locate-the-origins-of-the-boston-accent/

"Pahk the cah in Hahvahd yahd" is a common way to write that.
The "a" in "Pahk" isn't like the "a" in "pack."* Non-rhoticism
dispenses with the "r" sound, though the wiki says "cah"
retains an "r" sound.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boston_accent#Non-rhoticity

* except when some other New Englanders say it, per the Globe.

The motherhouse of the sisters who taught in the elementary
school I attended was in Fahl Rivvah, MA. We had no end of
fun mimicking the accents of nuns from the Bay State. Some
were from Balmur, Murlan, and we enjoyed imitating that speech.
The sisters in high school had an HQ at Halifax, NS, so we had
more New England accents to play with. I don't remember any teachers
who were actually Canadian, though.

Kevin R
Dorothy J Heydt
2019-10-23 13:08:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by David DeLaney
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by David DeLaney
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by David DeLaney
Dave, English also has (at least) two triphthongs
There's a moment in Robert MacNeil's _The Story of English_ in
which a linguist, who grew up in the Appalachians, is describing
"It's a triphthong. Flah-uh-urrr."
Yep. The other one I know of offhand is "fire", fahh-eee-urr.
Dave, unless you're from Georgia, in which case you might stop the
cahr by the
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by David DeLaney
tahr fahr to set and watch a spell
here to represent 'a as in cat', since it's the closest I can get
https://www.csmonitor.com/The-Culture/Verbal-Energy/2015/0910/We-finally-pahk-the-cah-on-Hahvahd-Yahd
https://www.bostonglobe.com/ideas/2015/08/25/blame-harvard-for-this-annoying-boston-accent-test/rvyip8zcAnwNmj1qpHtZqM/story.html
https://www.americaninno.com/boston/pahk-the-cah-in-hahvahd-yahd-researchers-locate-the-origins-of-the-boston-accent/
"Pahk the cah in Hahvahd yahd" is a common way to write that.
The "a" in "Pahk" isn't like the "a" in "pack."* Non-rhoticism
dispenses with the "r" sound, though the wiki says "cah"
retains an "r" sound.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boston_accent#Non-rhoticity
* except when some other New Englanders say it, per the Globe.
The motherhouse of the sisters who taught in the elementary
school I attended was in Fahl Rivvah, MA. We had no end of
fun mimicking the accents of nuns from the Bay State. Some
were from Balmur, Murlan, and we enjoyed imitating that speech.
The sisters in high school had an HQ at Halifax, NS, so we had
more New England accents to play with. I don't remember any teachers
who were actually Canadian, though.
Well, there's a lovely moment in the series I mentioned upthread,
_The Story of English_ with Robert MacNeil (who was Canadian but
worked in the US and adopted a USian accent while on the air).
He was photographed at Niagara Falls, and pointing at a small
building, he said, "On this side of the border, that's a house.
On the other side, it's a huhwse."
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/
Chrysi Cat
2019-10-23 07:30:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by David DeLaney
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by David DeLaney
Dave, English also has (at least) two triphthongs
There's a moment in Robert MacNeil's _The Story of English_ in
which a linguist, who grew up in the Appalachians, is describing
"It's a triphthong. Flah-uh-urrr."
Yep. The other one I know of offhand is "fire", fahh-eee-urr.
Dave, unless you're from Georgia, in which case you might stop the cahr by the
tahr fahr to set and watch a spell
Ooooh, comparative linguistics!

What's the way I pronounce words like "rule", "school" and the like, due
to a strong SoCal substrate (acquired because I _did_ attend preschool
there, but not once we moved to Colorado when I was four) overlain by a
moderate Colorado acccent, producing a vowel sound that basically would
be phonetically written (in English, not IPA) as "oowul"? 'Zat another
tripthong, or is it just an instrusive consonant? I also seem to hear it
in a lot of other SoCal-born, or -raised, peeps.

And the first wag that says "non-standard" gets their head kicked in :-P
--
Chrysi Cat
1/2 anthrocat, nearly 1/2 anthrofox, all magical
Transgoddess, quick to anger.
Call me Chrysi or call me Kat, I'll respond to either!
Chrysi Cat
2019-10-23 07:32:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chrysi Cat
Post by David DeLaney
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by David DeLaney
Dave, English also has (at least) two triphthongs
There's a moment in Robert MacNeil's _The Story of English_ in
which a linguist, who grew up in the Appalachians, is describing
"It's a triphthong.  Flah-uh-urrr."
Yep. The other one I know of offhand is "fire", fahh-eee-urr.
Dave, unless you're from Georgia, in which case you might stop the cahr by the
  tahr fahr to set and watch a spell
Ooooh, comparative linguistics!
What's the way I pronounce words like "rule", "school" and the like, due
to a strong SoCal substrate (acquired because I _did_ attend preschool
there, but not once we moved to Colorado when I was four) overlain by a
moderate Colorado acccent, producing a vowel sound that basically would
be phonetically written (in English, not IPA) as "oowul"? 'Zat another
tripthong, or is it just an instrusive consonant? I also seem to hear it
in a lot of other SoCal-born, or -raised, peeps.
And the first wag that says "non-standard" gets their head kicked in :-P
Or I could have just said "in my accent, 'cruel' is a perfect rime for
'school' or 'rule'...
--
Chrysi Cat
1/2 anthrocat, nearly 1/2 anthrofox, all magical
Transgoddess, quick to anger.
Call me Chrysi or call me Kat, I'll respond to either!
p***@hotmail.com
2019-10-23 08:16:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chrysi Cat
Post by Chrysi Cat
Post by David DeLaney
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by David DeLaney
Dave, English also has (at least) two triphthongs
There's a moment in Robert MacNeil's _The Story of English_ in
which a linguist, who grew up in the Appalachians, is describing
"It's a triphthong.  Flah-uh-urrr."
Yep. The other one I know of offhand is "fire", fahh-eee-urr.
Dave, unless you're from Georgia, in which case you might stop the cahr by the
  tahr fahr to set and watch a spell
Ooooh, comparative linguistics!
What's the way I pronounce words like "rule", "school" and the like, due
to a strong SoCal substrate (acquired because I _did_ attend preschool
there, but not once we moved to Colorado when I was four) overlain by a
moderate Colorado acccent, producing a vowel sound that basically would
be phonetically written (in English, not IPA) as "oowul"? 'Zat another
tripthong, or is it just an instrusive consonant? I also seem to hear it
in a lot of other SoCal-born, or -raised, peeps.
And the first wag that says "non-standard" gets their head kicked in :-P
Or I could have just said "in my accent, 'cruel' is a perfect rime for
'school' or 'rule'...
It was a school rule to be cruel.

Peter Wezeman
anti-social Darwinist
Dorothy J Heydt
2019-10-23 13:18:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chrysi Cat
Post by David DeLaney
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by David DeLaney
Dave, English also has (at least) two triphthongs
There's a moment in Robert MacNeil's _The Story of English_ in
which a linguist, who grew up in the Appalachians, is describing
"It's a triphthong. Flah-uh-urrr."
Yep. The other one I know of offhand is "fire", fahh-eee-urr.
Dave, unless you're from Georgia, in which case you might stop the cahr by the
tahr fahr to set and watch a spell
Ooooh, comparative linguistics!
What's the way I pronounce words like "rule", "school" and the like, due
to a strong SoCal substrate (acquired because I _did_ attend preschool
there, but not once we moved to Colorado when I was four) overlain by a
moderate Colorado acccent, producing a vowel sound that basically would
be phonetically written (in English, not IPA) as "oowul"? 'Zat another
tripthong, or is it just an instrusive consonant? I also seem to hear it
in a lot of other SoCal-born, or -raised, peeps.
And the first wag that says "non-standard" gets their head kicked in :-P
Whose standard, is the obvious question.

I went to high school in Newport Beach, California, and we had
some students there who were from Palm Springs, and pronounced
the numeral "ten" indistinguishably from "tin." I mentioned this
to one of my Linguistics professors once, and he said, "Yeah, and
I bet she distinguished those words from "teen."

I've lived in various parts of California, but my pronunciation
appears to be bog-standard SF Bay Area. My vocabulary, however,
is eclectic, with lots of borrowings from British English. I
told my grandson a couple days ago to go upstairs and watch his
telly, and he said indignantly, "Why are you talking British?"
and I said, "Because I feel like it."

And I seem to have adopted one element of British syntax, out of
which I got a paper for a Linguistics class, back in the day.
Tell an American driver, "You should have turned left back there,"
and the American will say, "Well, I could have." The Brit will
say, "Well, I could have done." I analyzed this addition of "do"
for an otherwise omitted verb according to Chomsky's _Syntactic
Structures,_ which was very big back in the sixties, and got an
acceptable grade on it. I don't have the paper any more, but I
seem to've adopted the syntax.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/
Kevrob
2019-10-23 15:25:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
And I seem to have adopted one element of British syntax, out of
which I got a paper for a Linguistics class, back in the day.
Tell an American driver, "You should have turned left back there,"
and the American will say, "Well, I could have." The Brit will
say, "Well, I could have done." I analyzed this addition of "do"
for an otherwise omitted verb according to Chomsky's _Syntactic
Structures,_ which was very big back in the sixties, and got an
acceptable grade on it. I don't have the paper any more, but I
seem to've adopted the syntax.
There's a dropped object, isn't there?

"Well, I could have done (that)."

I take it the "that" is just assumed.

I have adopted several bits of Irish English.
I particularly like "banjaxed."

http://www.wordorigins.org/index.php/more/2065/

I see it is coming up on "half-eleven."
My break is over!

Kevin R
Dorothy J Heydt
2019-10-23 17:39:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kevrob
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
And I seem to have adopted one element of British syntax, out of
which I got a paper for a Linguistics class, back in the day.
Tell an American driver, "You should have turned left back there,"
and the American will say, "Well, I could have." The Brit will
say, "Well, I could have done." I analyzed this addition of "do"
for an otherwise omitted verb according to Chomsky's _Syntactic
Structures,_ which was very big back in the sixties, and got an
acceptable grade on it. I don't have the paper any more, but I
seem to've adopted the syntax.
There's a dropped object, isn't there?
"Well, I could have done (that)."
I take it the "that" is just assumed.
Quite possibly. But I've never seen or read any Brit actually
using that. Although absence of evidence is not evidence of
absence!
Post by Kevrob
I have adopted several bits of Irish English.
I particularly like "banjaxed."
http://www.wordorigins.org/index.php/more/2065/
Cool!
Post by Kevrob
I see it is coming up on "half-eleven."
Oh, dear, I've found that use in one of Anne McCaffrey's books
and I can never remember whether it means "eleven-thirty" or
something else.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/
Gary R. Schmidt
2019-10-24 02:50:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Kevrob
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
And I seem to have adopted one element of British syntax, out of
which I got a paper for a Linguistics class, back in the day.
Tell an American driver, "You should have turned left back there,"
and the American will say, "Well, I could have." The Brit will
say, "Well, I could have done." I analyzed this addition of "do"
for an otherwise omitted verb according to Chomsky's _Syntactic
Structures,_ which was very big back in the sixties, and got an
acceptable grade on it. I don't have the paper any more, but I
seem to've adopted the syntax.
There's a dropped object, isn't there?
"Well, I could have done (that)."
I take it the "that" is just assumed.
Quite possibly. But I've never seen or read any Brit actually
using that. Although absence of evidence is not evidence of
absence!
It is/was common here in Oz, and no doubt other parts of the
Commonwealth/Empire, my grandparents (both born in the 1890s) would have
considered dropping the "that" to be decidedly common, and you still
hear it or read it every now and then.

Cheers,
Gary B-)
--
When men talk to their friends, they insult each other.
They don't really mean it.
When women talk to their friends, they compliment each other.
They don't mean it either.
Paul S Person
2019-10-24 16:37:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Kevrob
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
And I seem to have adopted one element of British syntax, out of
which I got a paper for a Linguistics class, back in the day.
Tell an American driver, "You should have turned left back there,"
and the American will say, "Well, I could have." The Brit will
say, "Well, I could have done." I analyzed this addition of "do"
for an otherwise omitted verb according to Chomsky's _Syntactic
Structures,_ which was very big back in the sixties, and got an
acceptable grade on it. I don't have the paper any more, but I
seem to've adopted the syntax.
There's a dropped object, isn't there?
"Well, I could have done (that)."
I take it the "that" is just assumed.
Quite possibly. But I've never seen or read any Brit actually
using that. Although absence of evidence is not evidence of
absence!
Post by Kevrob
I have adopted several bits of Irish English.
I particularly like "banjaxed."
http://www.wordorigins.org/index.php/more/2065/
Cool!
Post by Kevrob
I see it is coming up on "half-eleven."
Oh, dear, I've found that use in one of Anne McCaffrey's books
and I can never remember whether it means "eleven-thirty" or
something else.
IIRC, in German "halb elf" means "10:30".

The /real/ fun comes when you encounter "fuenf vor halb el" ("five
before half eleven") for 10:25.
--
"I begin to envy Petronius."
"I have envied him long since."
Kevrob
2019-10-24 17:08:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paul S Person
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Kevrob
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
And I seem to have adopted one element of British syntax, out of
which I got a paper for a Linguistics class, back in the day.
Tell an American driver, "You should have turned left back there,"
and the American will say, "Well, I could have." The Brit will
say, "Well, I could have done." I analyzed this addition of "do"
for an otherwise omitted verb according to Chomsky's _Syntactic
Structures,_ which was very big back in the sixties, and got an
acceptable grade on it. I don't have the paper any more, but I
seem to've adopted the syntax.
There's a dropped object, isn't there?
"Well, I could have done (that)."
I take it the "that" is just assumed.
Quite possibly. But I've never seen or read any Brit actually
using that. Although absence of evidence is not evidence of
absence!
Post by Kevrob
I have adopted several bits of Irish English.
I particularly like "banjaxed."
http://www.wordorigins.org/index.php/more/2065/
Cool!
Post by Kevrob
I see it is coming up on "half-eleven."
Oh, dear, I've found that use in one of Anne McCaffrey's books
and I can never remember whether it means "eleven-thirty" or
something else.
IIRC, in German "halb elf" means "10:30".
The /real/ fun comes when you encounter "fuenf vor halb el" ("five
before half eleven") for 10:25.
--
Though I posted my version at 5 before 11:30 (half eleven.)

See:

https://www.clarkandmiller.com/different-ways-to-ask-and-tell-the-time-in-english/

which mentions the difference between the German and Anglospheric methods
of using "half."


Kevin R

Robert Carnegie
2019-10-23 20:21:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kevrob
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
And I seem to have adopted one element of British syntax, out of
which I got a paper for a Linguistics class, back in the day.
Tell an American driver, "You should have turned left back there,"
and the American will say, "Well, I could have." The Brit will
say, "Well, I could have done." I analyzed this addition of "do"
for an otherwise omitted verb according to Chomsky's _Syntactic
Structures,_ which was very big back in the sixties, and got an
acceptable grade on it. I don't have the paper any more, but I
seem to've adopted the syntax.
There's a dropped object, isn't there?
"Well, I could have done (that)."
I take it the "that" is just assumed.
Or maybe "I could have done so." Well, it makes sense
to me.

On pronunciation, there was the for-context bawdy
1960s BBC radio comedy where a serial widow telling
her life story lost her latest husband when he
explored an ancient Egyptian tomb and was found
dead, as she explained, with "an asp clasped in
his grasp". That doesn't really work in any accent,
but never mind.
Post by Kevrob
I have adopted several bits of Irish English.
I particularly like "banjaxed."
http://www.wordorigins.org/index.php/more/2065/
I see it is coming up on "half-eleven."
My break is over!
Kevin R
Moriarty
2019-10-23 20:49:00 UTC
Permalink
On Thursday, October 24, 2019 at 2:25:58 AM UTC+11, Kevrob wrote:

<snip>
Post by Kevrob
There's a dropped object, isn't there?
"Well, I could have done (that)."
I take it the "that" is just assumed.
I have adopted several bits of Irish English.
I particularly like "banjaxed."
I first heard that word in this song:



So I've always thought of it as Scottish.

-Moriarty
Kevrob
2019-10-23 23:22:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Moriarty
<snip>
Post by Kevrob
There's a dropped object, isn't there?
"Well, I could have done (that)."
I take it the "that" is just assumed.
I have adopted several bits of Irish English.
I particularly like "banjaxed."
http://youtu.be/ggyC0FOzqHM
That is dead brilliant, to coin a phrase.

They should do a hymnal for the Church of the FSM.

{googlygooglygooglygoo....}

Oh my cat, there's a whole subgenre of "pirate metal.!"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pirate_metal

One form of r'n'r I do not listen to very often is metal,
so while I have heard, or heard of, metals from nu to black,
I had no idea!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heavy_metal_genres
Post by Moriarty
So I've always thought of it as Scottish.
It might have been separately derived from Scots,
or, as like, be one of those words that traveled
back and forth with the folks who did the same for
work, or war, or whatever.

See also:

https://stancarey.wordpress.com/2014/05/26/10-words-only-used-in-irish-english/

and the sequel

https://stancarey.wordpress.com/2017/01/18/12-words-peculiar-to-irish-english/

"Sleveen" puts me in mind of certain Raxacoricofallapatorians the Doctor
had to deal with. :)

Kevin R
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