Discussion:
Breaking the fourth wall yet again
(too old to reply)
Dorothy J Heydt
2019-11-02 22:58:30 UTC
Permalink
://www.gocomics.com/luann-againn/2019/11/02
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/
Lynn McGuire
2019-11-03 03:59:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
://www.gocomics.com/luann-againn/2019/11/02
https://www.gocomics.com/luann-againn/2019/11/02

That is nothing compared to:
https://www.gocomics.com/overthehedge/2019/11/02

Lynn
Kevrob
2019-11-03 18:20:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
://www.gocomics.com/luann-againn/2019/11/02
https://www.gocomics.com/luann-againn/2019/11/02
https://www.gocomics.com/overthehedge/2019/11/02
...and a Niven trope, inverted,then tweaked.

https://www.gocomics.com/overthehedge/2019/11/03

Kevin R
Ted Nolan <tednolan>
2019-11-03 18:31:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kevrob
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
://www.gocomics.com/luann-againn/2019/11/02
https://www.gocomics.com/luann-againn/2019/11/02
https://www.gocomics.com/overthehedge/2019/11/02
...and a Niven trope, inverted,then tweaked.
https://www.gocomics.com/overthehedge/2019/11/03
Kevin R
I'm thinking this is more a "Spectator Sport" scenario than a tasp scenario.
Not that there's any way to know.
--
columbiaclosings.com
What's not in Columbia anymore..
Kevrob
2019-11-03 23:20:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Post by Kevrob
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
://www.gocomics.com/luann-againn/2019/11/02
https://www.gocomics.com/luann-againn/2019/11/02
https://www.gocomics.com/overthehedge/2019/11/02
...and a Niven trope, inverted,then tweaked.
https://www.gocomics.com/overthehedge/2019/11/03
Kevin R
I'm thinking this is more a "Spectator Sport" scenario than a tasp scenario.
Not that there's any way to know.
Seems to me Verne is "jacked in" to the web, rather than
getting direct stim to his pleasure centers.

Kevin R
Dorothy J Heydt
2019-11-03 21:26:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kevrob
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
://www.gocomics.com/luann-againn/2019/11/02
https://www.gocomics.com/luann-againn/2019/11/02
https://www.gocomics.com/overthehedge/2019/11/02
...and a Niven trope, inverted,then tweaked.
https://www.gocomics.com/overthehedge/2019/11/03
Awwwwww.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/
p***@hotmail.com
2019-11-04 04:47:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
://www.gocomics.com/luann-againn/2019/11/02
Once in an article someone mentioned a performer breaking the THIRD wall.
I thought that if the fourth wall is the wall between the performer and
the audience, then the third wall would be between the performer and the
left or right stage wing. I'm sure it was just a careless statement
but it was an amusing image.

Peter Wezeman
anti-social Darwinist
J. Clarke
2019-11-04 12:36:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by p***@hotmail.com
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
://www.gocomics.com/luann-againn/2019/11/02
Once in an article someone mentioned a performer breaking the THIRD wall.
I thought that if the fourth wall is the wall between the performer and
the audience, then the third wall would be between the performer and the
left or right stage wing. I'm sure it was just a careless statement
but it was an amusing image.
I'm flashing on a performance of "Jesus Christ Superstar" in which
Jesus broke the fourth wall by falling off the stage. I suppose if he
had knocked down a set that would have been breaking one of the other
walls.
Dorothy J Heydt
2019-11-04 13:39:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by p***@hotmail.com
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
://www.gocomics.com/luann-againn/2019/11/02
Once in an article someone mentioned a performer breaking the THIRD wall.
I thought that if the fourth wall is the wall between the performer and
the audience, then the third wall would be between the performer and the
left or right stage wing. I'm sure it was just a careless statement
but it was an amusing image.
There's a weird play by E. E. Cummings called "Him." I won't go
into its comprehensive weirdness, but it has (I think) four acts,
and for each one the scenery is moved, so that each wall of the
room in which most of the action takes place has its turn at
being the fourth wall. The fourth fourth wall, if you follow
me--the one in the fourth act--is the only one that is broken,
and that at the very end, when the female lead takes the male
lead to face it and makes him see that there is an audience out
there.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/
David Johnston
2019-11-05 06:47:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by p***@hotmail.com
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
://www.gocomics.com/luann-againn/2019/11/02
Once in an article someone mentioned a performer breaking the THIRD wall.
I thought that if the fourth wall is the wall between the performer and
the audience, then the third wall would be between the performer and the
left or right stage wing. I'm sure it was just a careless statement
but it was an amusing image.
The most prominent example of someone breaking the third wall I'm
familiar with was the part of Blazing Saddles where they broke through
it into the neighbouring soundstage where they disrupted a Busby
Berkely-style dance number with their brawl.
p. pinto
2019-11-05 12:17:23 UTC
Permalink
- hi; the fourth wall is broken conceptually, at least, and
from rather a different direction - in the wonderful fredric
brown's "double standard" (_playboy_ 4/1963, in judith merril-
edited "_(the best of sci-fi) 9th annual s-f_" mayflower dell,
1967, 70, in "_paradox lost_" fredric brown, robert hale, 1975;

- and again, and again°, in classically beautifully intensively
recomplicated fashion, in daniel galouye's "_counterfeit world_"
(gollancz 1964, hamlyn paperbacks 1983) (aka "_simulacron-3_"),
arguably intangibly but nonetheless very really for more than
one of the created world('s/s') characters.

- love, ppint.

° - and again...?°
--
"life is sensational!"
inadvertently multiply-meaningful pun committed by jackie mathews
co-inmate of 40 regent street,
summer (july-september) 1978
Dorothy J Heydt
2019-11-05 14:20:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by p. pinto
- hi; the fourth wall is broken conceptually, at least, and
from rather a different direction - in the wonderful fredric
brown's "double standard" (_playboy_ 4/1963, in judith merril-
edited "_(the best of sci-fi) 9th annual s-f_" mayflower dell,
1967, 70, in "_paradox lost_" fredric brown, robert hale, 1975;
- and again, and again°, in classically beautifully intensively
recomplicated fashion, in daniel galouye's "_counterfeit world_"
(gollancz 1964, hamlyn paperbacks 1983) (aka "_simulacron-3_"),
arguably intangibly but nonetheless very really for more than
one of the created world('s/s') characters.
- love, ppint.
° - and again...?°
And if we include plays/movies, there's _The Matchmaker_ by
Thornton Wilder, in which all the characters from time to time
turn to the audience/camera and explain what they're doing and
why.

Another Wilder play, _The Skin of Our Teeth_, breaks the fourth
wall so many times it never recovers, with the actors continually
complaining about things that don't have anything to do with the play.
Except they do, because the topic of the play (in addition to "All
the troubles the human race has been in since the beginning of time,"
as one indignant actress puts it) is the difficulty of putting
one's ideas onto the boards with the use of mere human actors and
inadequate scenery.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/
Kevrob
2019-11-05 18:05:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by p. pinto
- hi; the fourth wall is broken conceptually, at least, and
from rather a different direction - in the wonderful fredric
brown's "double standard" (_playboy_ 4/1963, in judith merril-
edited "_(the best of sci-fi) 9th annual s-f_" mayflower dell,
1967, 70, in "_paradox lost_" fredric brown, robert hale, 1975;
- and again, and again°, in classically beautifully intensively
recomplicated fashion, in daniel galouye's "_counterfeit world_"
(gollancz 1964, hamlyn paperbacks 1983) (aka "_simulacron-3_"),
arguably intangibly but nonetheless very really for more than
one of the created world('s/s') characters.
- love, ppint.
° - and again...?°
And if we include plays/movies, there's _The Matchmaker_ by
Thornton Wilder, in which all the characters from time to time
turn to the audience/camera and explain what they're doing and
why.
Ahhhh!!! I played Ambrose for a 2-week run put on by our collegiate
theater group. It was notable for me in that I got to stage-kiss
a beautiful young actress, and also her beautiful understudy,
when Ermengarde I took sick. (No, I didn't give her anything!)

Our "Cornelius Hackle" went on to win a Tony. He is also a Tony!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anthony_Crivello

Playing a part opposite folks who were intent on making the theater
and films their career was daunting. It was a great experience, but
my grade-point-average could have done without the interminable
rehearsal. They say that actors play the parts for free, and get
paid for the mundanities of waiting, traveling, etc. I believe it.
I was doing all that for free! Now, if I had managed to snag a
would-be-actress girlfriend, but, alas, no.
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Another Wilder play, _The Skin of Our Teeth_, ...
We used to say, Oscar was Wilde, but Thornton was Wilder!

Kevin R
D B Davis
2019-11-05 15:15:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by p. pinto
- hi; the fourth wall is broken conceptually, at least, and
from rather a different direction - in the wonderful fredric
brown's "double standard" (_playboy_ 4/1963, in judith merril-
edited "_(the best of sci-fi) 9th annual s-f_" mayflower dell,
1967, 70, in "_paradox lost_" fredric brown, robert hale, 1975;
- and again, and again°, in classically beautifully intensively
recomplicated fashion, in daniel galouye's "_counterfeit world_"
(gollancz 1964, hamlyn paperbacks 1983) (aka "_simulacron-3_"),
arguably intangibly but nonetheless very really for more than
one of the created world('s/s') characters.
You broke a fourth wall when you went through the looking glass to
examine the characteristic fourth wall within that only applies to a
character and not the all seeing audience. (OK, that sentence was too
cute by half, but who can resist such things? Your further indulgence is
appreciated.)
Now that you've liberated us, we can speak of the fourth wall
implicit in _Hamlet_'s "The Mouse Trap." But, it's unsatisfying because
_Hamlet_'s not pure literature, it's a play.
We need pure literature along the lines of _simulacron-3_. PKD liked
to focus on the fragile nature of reality. There ought to be something
apropos in his opus, something popular. Let's see... Got it!
_Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep_ breaks the fourth wall of a
character named Rachel Rosen by disclosing to her that she is an
android. Rosen naturally becomes quite upset and despondent.
Now that my jury-rigged structure's in place, we can finally talk
about the almighty audience's literal fourth wall. How does the fourth
wall manifest itself in literature?
In a play it's easy to see. A character merely talks directly to the
audience. How does that happen in literature? (An example speaks a
thousand words.)



Thank you,
--
Don.......My cat's )\._.,--....,'``.
telltale tall tail /, _.. \ _\ (`._ ,.
tells tall tales.. `._.-(,_..'--(,_..'`-.;.'
P. Taine
2019-11-05 17:34:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by D B Davis
Post by p. pinto
- hi; the fourth wall is broken conceptually, at least, and
from rather a different direction - in the wonderful fredric
brown's "double standard" (_playboy_ 4/1963, in judith merril-
edited "_(the best of sci-fi) 9th annual s-f_" mayflower dell,
1967, 70, in "_paradox lost_" fredric brown, robert hale, 1975;
- and again, and again°, in classically beautifully intensively
recomplicated fashion, in daniel galouye's "_counterfeit world_"
(gollancz 1964, hamlyn paperbacks 1983) (aka "_simulacron-3_"),
arguably intangibly but nonetheless very really for more than
one of the created world('s/s') characters.
You broke a fourth wall when you went through the looking glass to
examine the characteristic fourth wall within that only applies to a
character and not the all seeing audience. (OK, that sentence was too
cute by half, but who can resist such things? Your further indulgence is
appreciated.)
Now that you've liberated us, we can speak of the fourth wall
implicit in _Hamlet_'s "The Mouse Trap." But, it's unsatisfying because
_Hamlet_'s not pure literature, it's a play.
We need pure literature along the lines of _simulacron-3_. PKD liked
to focus on the fragile nature of reality. There ought to be something
apropos in his opus, something popular. Let's see... Got it!
_Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep_ breaks the fourth wall of a
character named Rachel Rosen by disclosing to her that she is an
android. Rosen naturally becomes quite upset and despondent.
Now that my jury-rigged structure's in place, we can finally talk
about the almighty audience's literal fourth wall. How does the fourth
wall manifest itself in literature?
In a play it's easy to see. A character merely talks directly to the
audience. How does that happen in literature? (An example speaks a
thousand words.)
?
Thank you,
Will a non-SF novel do? Tristram Shandy. The book (over 250 years old)
includes a marbled page which the author states, in the book, represents the
strucutre of said book. Elsewhere, there are printed lines, complete with side
loops and angle, which the reader is told show the digressions in the previous
chapters. In a number of other places the reader is addressed directly.

Will that do?

P. Taine
D B Davis
2019-11-05 18:34:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by P. Taine
Post by D B Davis
Post by p. pinto
- hi; the fourth wall is broken conceptually, at least, and
from rather a different direction - in the wonderful fredric
brown's "double standard" (_playboy_ 4/1963, in judith merril-
edited "_(the best of sci-fi) 9th annual s-f_" mayflower dell,
1967, 70, in "_paradox lost_" fredric brown, robert hale, 1975;
- and again, and again°, in classically beautifully intensively
recomplicated fashion, in daniel galouye's "_counterfeit world_"
(gollancz 1964, hamlyn paperbacks 1983) (aka "_simulacron-3_"),
arguably intangibly but nonetheless very really for more than
one of the created world('s/s') characters.
You broke a fourth wall when you went through the looking glass to
examine the characteristic fourth wall within that only applies to a
character and not the all seeing audience. (OK, that sentence was too
cute by half, but who can resist such things? Your further indulgence is
appreciated.)
Now that you've liberated us, we can speak of the fourth wall
implicit in _Hamlet_'s "The Mouse Trap." But, it's unsatisfying because
_Hamlet_'s not pure literature, it's a play.
We need pure literature along the lines of _simulacron-3_. PKD liked
to focus on the fragile nature of reality. There ought to be something
apropos in his opus, something popular. Let's see... Got it!
_Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep_ breaks the fourth wall of a
character named Rachel Rosen by disclosing to her that she is an
android. Rosen naturally becomes quite upset and despondent.
Now that my jury-rigged structure's in place, we can finally talk
about the almighty audience's literal fourth wall. How does the fourth
wall manifest itself in literature?
In a play it's easy to see. A character merely talks directly to the
audience. How does that happen in literature? (An example speaks a
thousand words.)
Will a non-SF novel do? Tristram Shandy. The book (over 250 years old)
includes a marbled page which the author states, in the book, represents the
strucutre of said book. Elsewhere, there are printed lines, complete with sid
e
Post by P. Taine
loops and angle, which the reader is told show the digressions in the previous
chapters. In a number of other places the reader is addressed directly.
Will that do?
Excellent! FWIW, here's my take on your answer: a narcissistic book, if
you will, breaks the fourth wall when it talks about itself. Although
talking about itself in the first person is a delicious prospect,
addressing itself in the third person also works, as does non-SF.
Intriguing. It's time for me to ruminate.



Thank you,
--
Don.......My cat's )\._.,--....,'``.
telltale tall tail /, _.. \ _\ (`._ ,.
tells tall tales.. `._.-(,_..'--(,_..'`-.;.'
p***@hotmail.com
2019-11-05 18:47:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by D B Davis
Post by P. Taine
Post by D B Davis
Post by p. pinto
- hi; the fourth wall is broken conceptually, at least, and
from rather a different direction - in the wonderful fredric
brown's "double standard" (_playboy_ 4/1963, in judith merril-
edited "_(the best of sci-fi) 9th annual s-f_" mayflower dell,
1967, 70, in "_paradox lost_" fredric brown, robert hale, 1975;
- and again, and again°, in classically beautifully intensively
recomplicated fashion, in daniel galouye's "_counterfeit world_"
(gollancz 1964, hamlyn paperbacks 1983) (aka "_simulacron-3_"),
arguably intangibly but nonetheless very really for more than
one of the created world('s/s') characters.
You broke a fourth wall when you went through the looking glass to
examine the characteristic fourth wall within that only applies to a
character and not the all seeing audience. (OK, that sentence was too
cute by half, but who can resist such things? Your further indulgence is
appreciated.)
Now that you've liberated us, we can speak of the fourth wall
implicit in _Hamlet_'s "The Mouse Trap." But, it's unsatisfying because
_Hamlet_'s not pure literature, it's a play.
We need pure literature along the lines of _simulacron-3_. PKD liked
to focus on the fragile nature of reality. There ought to be something
apropos in his opus, something popular. Let's see... Got it!
_Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep_ breaks the fourth wall of a
character named Rachel Rosen by disclosing to her that she is an
android. Rosen naturally becomes quite upset and despondent.
Now that my jury-rigged structure's in place, we can finally talk
about the almighty audience's literal fourth wall. How does the fourth
wall manifest itself in literature?
In a play it's easy to see. A character merely talks directly to the
audience. How does that happen in literature? (An example speaks a
thousand words.)
Will a non-SF novel do? Tristram Shandy. The book (over 250 years old)
includes a marbled page which the author states, in the book, represents the
strucutre of said book. Elsewhere, there are printed lines, complete with sid
e
Post by P. Taine
loops and angle, which the reader is told show the digressions in the previous
chapters. In a number of other places the reader is addressed directly.
Will that do?
Excellent! FWIW, here's my take on your answer: a narcissistic book, if
you will, breaks the fourth wall when it talks about itself. Although
talking about itself in the first person is a delicious prospect,
addressing itself in the third person also works, as does non-SF.
Intriguing. It's time for me to ruminate.
Don't overdo it. A significant percentage of greenhouse gases is
methane from ruminating animals.

Peter Wezeman
anti-social Darwinist
Scott Lurndal
2019-11-05 20:18:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by P. Taine
Post by D B Davis
Post by D B Davis
Post by p. pinto
- hi; the fourth wall is broken conceptually, at least, and
from rather a different direction - in the wonderful fredric
brown's "double standard" (_playboy_ 4/1963, in judith merril-
edited "_(the best of sci-fi) 9th annual s-f_" mayflower dell,
1967, 70, in "_paradox lost_" fredric brown, robert hale, 1975;
- and again, and again=C2=B0, in classically beautifully intensively
recomplicated fashion, in daniel galouye's "_counterfeit world_"
(gollancz 1964, hamlyn paperbacks 1983) (aka "_simulacron-3_"),
arguably intangibly but nonetheless very really for more than
one of the created world('s/s') characters.
You broke a fourth wall when you went through the looking glass to
examine the characteristic fourth wall within that only applies to a
character and not the all seeing audience. (OK, that sentence was too
cute by half, but who can resist such things? Your further indulgence i=
s
Post by D B Davis
Post by D B Davis
appreciated.)
Now that you've liberated us, we can speak of the fourth wall
implicit in _Hamlet_'s "The Mouse Trap." But, it's unsatisfying because
_Hamlet_'s not pure literature, it's a play.
We need pure literature along the lines of _simulacron-3_. PKD like=
d
Post by D B Davis
Post by D B Davis
to focus on the fragile nature of reality. There ought to be something
apropos in his opus, something popular. Let's see... Got it!
_Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep_ breaks the fourth wall of a
character named Rachel Rosen by disclosing to her that she is an
android. Rosen naturally becomes quite upset and despondent.
Now that my jury-rigged structure's in place, we can finally talk
about the almighty audience's literal fourth wall. How does the fourth
wall manifest itself in literature?
In a play it's easy to see. A character merely talks directly to th=
e
Post by D B Davis
Post by D B Davis
audience. How does that happen in literature? (An example speaks a
thousand words.)
Will a non-SF novel do? Tristram Shandy. The book (over 250 years old=
)
Post by D B Davis
includes a marbled page which the author states, in the book, represent=
s the
Post by D B Davis
strucutre of said book. Elsewhere, there are printed lines, complete w=
ith sid
Post by D B Davis
e
loops and angle, which the reader is told show the digressions in the p=
revious
Post by D B Davis
chapters. In a number of other places the reader is addressed directly=
.
Post by D B Davis
Will that do?
=20
Excellent! FWIW, here's my take on your answer: a narcissistic book, if
you will, breaks the fourth wall when it talks about itself. Although
talking about itself in the first person is a delicious prospect,=20
addressing itself in the third person also works, as does non-SF.=20
Intriguing. It's time for me to ruminate.
=20
Don't overdo it. A significant percentage of greenhouse gases is
methane from ruminating animals.
Of course those greenhouse gasses are _part_ of the standard carbon
cycle. They're not releasing 100-million-year-sequestered carbon
into the atmosphere. In the normal carbon cycle, the ruminant
emissions would make new feed (crops) for the animals and the cycle
would continue.
Robert Carnegie
2019-11-05 21:37:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Scott Lurndal
Post by P. Taine
Post by D B Davis
Post by D B Davis
Post by p. pinto
- hi; the fourth wall is broken conceptually, at least, and
from rather a different direction - in the wonderful fredric
brown's "double standard" (_playboy_ 4/1963, in judith merril-
edited "_(the best of sci-fi) 9th annual s-f_" mayflower dell,
1967, 70, in "_paradox lost_" fredric brown, robert hale, 1975;
- and again, and again=C2=B0, in classically beautifully intensively
recomplicated fashion, in daniel galouye's "_counterfeit world_"
(gollancz 1964, hamlyn paperbacks 1983) (aka "_simulacron-3_"),
arguably intangibly but nonetheless very really for more than
one of the created world('s/s') characters.
You broke a fourth wall when you went through the looking glass to
examine the characteristic fourth wall within that only applies to a
character and not the all seeing audience. (OK, that sentence was too
cute by half, but who can resist such things? Your further indulgence i=
s
Post by D B Davis
Post by D B Davis
appreciated.)
Now that you've liberated us, we can speak of the fourth wall
implicit in _Hamlet_'s "The Mouse Trap." But, it's unsatisfying because
_Hamlet_'s not pure literature, it's a play.
We need pure literature along the lines of _simulacron-3_. PKD like=
d
Post by D B Davis
Post by D B Davis
to focus on the fragile nature of reality. There ought to be something
apropos in his opus, something popular. Let's see... Got it!
_Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep_ breaks the fourth wall of a
character named Rachel Rosen by disclosing to her that she is an
android. Rosen naturally becomes quite upset and despondent.
Now that my jury-rigged structure's in place, we can finally talk
about the almighty audience's literal fourth wall. How does the fourth
wall manifest itself in literature?
In a play it's easy to see. A character merely talks directly to th=
e
Post by D B Davis
Post by D B Davis
audience. How does that happen in literature? (An example speaks a
thousand words.)
Will a non-SF novel do? Tristram Shandy. The book (over 250 years old=
)
Post by D B Davis
includes a marbled page which the author states, in the book, represent=
s the
Post by D B Davis
strucutre of said book. Elsewhere, there are printed lines, complete w=
ith sid
Post by D B Davis
e
loops and angle, which the reader is told show the digressions in the p=
revious
Post by D B Davis
chapters. In a number of other places the reader is addressed directly=
.
Post by D B Davis
Will that do?
=20
Excellent! FWIW, here's my take on your answer: a narcissistic book, if
you will, breaks the fourth wall when it talks about itself. Although
talking about itself in the first person is a delicious prospect,=20
addressing itself in the third person also works, as does non-SF.=20
Intriguing. It's time for me to ruminate.
=20
Don't overdo it. A significant percentage of greenhouse gases is
methane from ruminating animals.
Of course those greenhouse gasses are _part_ of the standard carbon
cycle. They're not releasing 100-million-year-sequestered carbon
into the atmosphere. In the normal carbon cycle, the ruminant
emissions would make new feed (crops) for the animals and the cycle
would continue.
If the animals are organic grass fed on ancient pasture,
yes. Otherwise... clearing forest de-sequesters,
for one thing.

Back at the fourth wall... Spike Milligan's _Puckoon_
has one or more characters quarrel with the author.
I think Flann O'Brien also did that. Roger Zelazny's
"Amber" novels are mostly narrated by Corwin or by
Merlin (not that one), Corwin in particular losing his
temper with his audience sometimes - that being
"possible spoiler character", not us.
Scott Lurndal
2019-11-05 21:49:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by Scott Lurndal
Post by P. Taine
Post by D B Davis
Post by D B Davis
Post by p. pinto
- hi; the fourth wall is broken conceptually, at least, and
from rather a different direction - in the wonderful fredric
brown's "double standard" (_playboy_ 4/1963, in judith merril-
edited "_(the best of sci-fi) 9th annual s-f_" mayflower dell,
1967, 70, in "_paradox lost_" fredric brown, robert hale, 1975;
- and again, and again=C2=B0, in classically beautifully intensively
recomplicated fashion, in daniel galouye's "_counterfeit world_"
(gollancz 1964, hamlyn paperbacks 1983) (aka "_simulacron-3_"),
arguably intangibly but nonetheless very really for more than
one of the created world('s/s') characters.
You broke a fourth wall when you went through the looking glass to
examine the characteristic fourth wall within that only applies to a
character and not the all seeing audience. (OK, that sentence was too
cute by half, but who can resist such things? Your further indulgence i=
s
Post by D B Davis
Post by D B Davis
appreciated.)
Now that you've liberated us, we can speak of the fourth wall
implicit in _Hamlet_'s "The Mouse Trap." But, it's unsatisfying because
_Hamlet_'s not pure literature, it's a play.
We need pure literature along the lines of _simulacron-3_. PKD like=
d
Post by D B Davis
Post by D B Davis
to focus on the fragile nature of reality. There ought to be something
apropos in his opus, something popular. Let's see... Got it!
_Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep_ breaks the fourth wall of a
character named Rachel Rosen by disclosing to her that she is an
android. Rosen naturally becomes quite upset and despondent.
Now that my jury-rigged structure's in place, we can finally talk
about the almighty audience's literal fourth wall. How does the fourth
wall manifest itself in literature?
In a play it's easy to see. A character merely talks directly to th=
e
Post by D B Davis
Post by D B Davis
audience. How does that happen in literature? (An example speaks a
thousand words.)
Will a non-SF novel do? Tristram Shandy. The book (over 250 years old=
)
Post by D B Davis
includes a marbled page which the author states, in the book, represent=
s the
Post by D B Davis
strucutre of said book. Elsewhere, there are printed lines, complete w=
ith sid
Post by D B Davis
e
loops and angle, which the reader is told show the digressions in the p=
revious
Post by D B Davis
chapters. In a number of other places the reader is addressed directly=
.
Post by D B Davis
Will that do?
=20
Excellent! FWIW, here's my take on your answer: a narcissistic book, if
you will, breaks the fourth wall when it talks about itself. Although
talking about itself in the first person is a delicious prospect,=20
addressing itself in the third person also works, as does non-SF.=20
Intriguing. It's time for me to ruminate.
=20
Don't overdo it. A significant percentage of greenhouse gases is
methane from ruminating animals.
Of course those greenhouse gasses are _part_ of the standard carbon
cycle. They're not releasing 100-million-year-sequestered carbon
into the atmosphere. In the normal carbon cycle, the ruminant
emissions would make new feed (crops) for the animals and the cycle
would continue.
If the animals are organic grass fed on ancient pasture,
yes. Otherwise... clearing forest de-sequesters,
for one thing.
But NOT ON A GEOLOGICAL TIMESCALE. The carbon in a forest
isn't "sequestered" on anything more than a decadal or for a
very small subset of the forest, century scale.

The tree dies, it rots and returns the carbon to the soil
and atmosphere. Wherein it is subsequently (as CO2) used
to build new plants and trees. Which die, rot and und so weiter.

It's a closed system until you introduce carbon that was sequestered
for a hundred million years.

The only extent by which it could be considered sequestered
is if something lasting (millenia scale) is constructed
from the lumber harvested from the trees.
Robert Carnegie
2019-11-05 23:26:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by Scott Lurndal
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by Scott Lurndal
Post by P. Taine
Post by D B Davis
Post by D B Davis
Post by p. pinto
- hi; the fourth wall is broken conceptually, at least, and
from rather a different direction - in the wonderful fredric
brown's "double standard" (_playboy_ 4/1963, in judith merril-
edited "_(the best of sci-fi) 9th annual s-f_" mayflower dell,
1967, 70, in "_paradox lost_" fredric brown, robert hale, 1975;
- and again, and again=C2=B0, in classically beautifully intensively
recomplicated fashion, in daniel galouye's "_counterfeit world_"
(gollancz 1964, hamlyn paperbacks 1983) (aka "_simulacron-3_"),
arguably intangibly but nonetheless very really for more than
one of the created world('s/s') characters.
You broke a fourth wall when you went through the looking glass to
examine the characteristic fourth wall within that only applies to a
character and not the all seeing audience. (OK, that sentence was too
cute by half, but who can resist such things? Your further indulgence i=
s
Post by D B Davis
Post by D B Davis
appreciated.)
Now that you've liberated us, we can speak of the fourth wall
implicit in _Hamlet_'s "The Mouse Trap." But, it's unsatisfying because
_Hamlet_'s not pure literature, it's a play.
We need pure literature along the lines of _simulacron-3_. PKD like=
d
Post by D B Davis
Post by D B Davis
to focus on the fragile nature of reality. There ought to be something
apropos in his opus, something popular. Let's see... Got it!
_Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep_ breaks the fourth wall of a
character named Rachel Rosen by disclosing to her that she is an
android. Rosen naturally becomes quite upset and despondent.
Now that my jury-rigged structure's in place, we can finally talk
about the almighty audience's literal fourth wall. How does the fourth
wall manifest itself in literature?
In a play it's easy to see. A character merely talks directly to th=
e
Post by D B Davis
Post by D B Davis
audience. How does that happen in literature? (An example speaks a
thousand words.)
Will a non-SF novel do? Tristram Shandy. The book (over 250 years old=
)
Post by D B Davis
includes a marbled page which the author states, in the book, represent=
s the
Post by D B Davis
strucutre of said book. Elsewhere, there are printed lines, complete w=
ith sid
Post by D B Davis
e
loops and angle, which the reader is told show the digressions in the p=
revious
Post by D B Davis
chapters. In a number of other places the reader is addressed directly=
.
Post by D B Davis
Will that do?
=20
Excellent! FWIW, here's my take on your answer: a narcissistic book, if
you will, breaks the fourth wall when it talks about itself. Although
talking about itself in the first person is a delicious prospect,=20
addressing itself in the third person also works, as does non-SF.=20
Intriguing. It's time for me to ruminate.
=20
Don't overdo it. A significant percentage of greenhouse gases is
methane from ruminating animals.
Of course those greenhouse gasses are _part_ of the standard carbon
cycle. They're not releasing 100-million-year-sequestered carbon
into the atmosphere. In the normal carbon cycle, the ruminant
emissions would make new feed (crops) for the animals and the cycle
would continue.
If the animals are organic grass fed on ancient pasture,
yes. Otherwise... clearing forest de-sequesters,
for one thing.
But NOT ON A GEOLOGICAL TIMESCALE. The carbon in a forest
isn't "sequestered" on anything more than a decadal or for a
very small subset of the forest, century scale.
The tree dies, it rots and returns the carbon to the soil
and atmosphere. Wherein it is subsequently (as CO2) used
to build new plants and trees. Which die, rot and und so weiter.
It's a closed system until you introduce carbon that was sequestered
for a hundred million years.
The only extent by which it could be considered sequestered
is if something lasting (millenia scale) is constructed
from the lumber harvested from the trees.
Not quite. As long as a forest is a forest, it holds
carbon, which is released when it is cleared.

So typically since the last ice age that put down glaciers
where the forest later grew. I'm not sure about longer
than that, but I suppose there's tundra as an intermediate
condition.
Juho Julkunen
2019-11-06 12:07:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by Scott Lurndal
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by Scott Lurndal
Post by P. Taine
Post by D B Davis
Post by D B Davis
Post by p. pinto
- hi; the fourth wall is broken conceptually, at least, and
from rather a different direction - in the wonderful fredric
brown's "double standard" (_playboy_ 4/1963, in judith merril-
edited "_(the best of sci-fi) 9th annual s-f_" mayflower dell,
1967, 70, in "_paradox lost_" fredric brown, robert hale, 1975;
- and again, and again=C2=B0, in classically beautifully intensively
recomplicated fashion, in daniel galouye's "_counterfeit world_"
(gollancz 1964, hamlyn paperbacks 1983) (aka "_simulacron-3_"),
arguably intangibly but nonetheless very really for more than
one of the created world('s/s') characters.
You broke a fourth wall when you went through the looking glass to
examine the characteristic fourth wall within that only applies to a
character and not the all seeing audience. (OK, that sentence was too
cute by half, but who can resist such things? Your further indulgence i=
s
Post by D B Davis
Post by D B Davis
appreciated.)
Now that you've liberated us, we can speak of the fourth wall
implicit in _Hamlet_'s "The Mouse Trap." But, it's unsatisfying because
_Hamlet_'s not pure literature, it's a play.
We need pure literature along the lines of _simulacron-3_. PKD like=
d
Post by D B Davis
Post by D B Davis
to focus on the fragile nature of reality. There ought to be something
apropos in his opus, something popular. Let's see... Got it!
_Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep_ breaks the fourth wall of a
character named Rachel Rosen by disclosing to her that she is an
android. Rosen naturally becomes quite upset and despondent.
Now that my jury-rigged structure's in place, we can finally talk
about the almighty audience's literal fourth wall. How does the fourth
wall manifest itself in literature?
In a play it's easy to see. A character merely talks directly to th=
e
Post by D B Davis
Post by D B Davis
audience. How does that happen in literature? (An example speaks a
thousand words.)
Will a non-SF novel do? Tristram Shandy. The book (over 250 years old=
)
Post by D B Davis
includes a marbled page which the author states, in the book, represent=
s the
Post by D B Davis
strucutre of said book. Elsewhere, there are printed lines, complete w=
ith sid
Post by D B Davis
e
loops and angle, which the reader is told show the digressions in the p=
revious
Post by D B Davis
chapters. In a number of other places the reader is addressed directly=
.
Post by D B Davis
Will that do?
=20
Excellent! FWIW, here's my take on your answer: a narcissistic book, if
you will, breaks the fourth wall when it talks about itself. Although
talking about itself in the first person is a delicious prospect,=20
addressing itself in the third person also works, as does non-SF.=20
Intriguing. It's time for me to ruminate.
=20
Don't overdo it. A significant percentage of greenhouse gases is
methane from ruminating animals.
Of course those greenhouse gasses are _part_ of the standard carbon
cycle. They're not releasing 100-million-year-sequestered carbon
into the atmosphere. In the normal carbon cycle, the ruminant
emissions would make new feed (crops) for the animals and the cycle
would continue.
If the animals are organic grass fed on ancient pasture,
yes. Otherwise... clearing forest de-sequesters,
for one thing.
But NOT ON A GEOLOGICAL TIMESCALE. The carbon in a forest
isn't "sequestered" on anything more than a decadal or for a
very small subset of the forest, century scale.
What we have here is a very strikingly literal case of someone not
seeing the forest for the trees.
--
Juho Julkunen
D B Davis
2019-11-05 22:35:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by Scott Lurndal
Post by p***@hotmail.com
Post by D B Davis
Post by P. Taine
Post by D B Davis
Post by p. pinto
- hi; the fourth wall is broken conceptually, at least, and
from rather a different direction - in the wonderful fredric
brown's "double standard" (_playboy_ 4/1963, in judith merril-
edited "_(the best of sci-fi) 9th annual s-f_" mayflower dell,
1967, 70, in "_paradox lost_" fredric brown, robert hale, 1975;
- and again, and again=C2=B0, in classically beautifully intensively
recomplicated fashion, in daniel galouye's "_counterfeit world_"
(gollancz 1964, hamlyn paperbacks 1983) (aka "_simulacron-3_"),
arguably intangibly but nonetheless very really for more than
one of the created world('s/s') characters.
You broke a fourth wall when you went through the looking glass to
examine the characteristic fourth wall within that only applies to a
character and not the all seeing audience. (OK, that sentence was too
cute by half, but who can resist such things? Your further indulgence is
appreciated.)
Now that you've liberated us, we can speak of the fourth wall
implicit in _Hamlet_'s "The Mouse Trap." But, it's unsatisfying because
_Hamlet_'s not pure literature, it's a play.
We need pure literature along the lines of _simulacron-3_. PKD liked
to focus on the fragile nature of reality. There ought to be something
apropos in his opus, something popular. Let's see... Got it!
_Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep_ breaks the fourth wall of a
character named Rachel Rosen by disclosing to her that she is an
android. Rosen naturally becomes quite upset and despondent.
Now that my jury-rigged structure's in place, we can finally talk
about the almighty audience's literal fourth wall. How does the fourth
wall manifest itself in literature?
In a play it's easy to see. A character merely talks directly to the
audience. How does that happen in literature? (An example speaks a
thousand words.)
Will a non-SF novel do? Tristram Shandy. The book (over 250 years old)
includes a marbled page which the author states, in the book, represents the
strucutre of said book. Elsewhere, there are printed lines, complete with side
loops and angle, which the reader is told show the digressions in the previous
chapters. In a number of other places the reader is addressed directly.
Will that do?
Excellent! FWIW, here's my take on your answer: a narcissistic book, if
you will, breaks the fourth wall when it talks about itself. Although
talking about itself in the first person is a delicious prospect,=20
addressing itself in the third person also works, as does non-SF.=20
Intriguing. It's time for me to ruminate.
Don't overdo it. A significant percentage of greenhouse gases is
methane from ruminating animals.
Of course those greenhouse gasses are _part_ of the standard carbon
cycle. They're not releasing 100-million-year-sequestered carbon
into the atmosphere. In the normal carbon cycle, the ruminant
emissions would make new feed (crops) for the animals and the cycle
would continue.
If the animals are organic grass fed on ancient pasture,
yes. Otherwise... clearing forest de-sequesters,
for one thing.
Back at the fourth wall... Spike Milligan's _Puckoon_
has one or more characters quarrel with the author.
I think Flann O'Brien also did that. Roger Zelazny's
"Amber" novels are mostly narrated by Corwin or by
Merlin (not that one), Corwin in particular losing his
temper with his audience sometimes - that being
"possible spoiler character", not us.
Further rumination led me to ask myself, "What does a narcissistic book
say?"
"You hold in your hands" seemed a worthy contender. A search on that
phrase eventually yields "you hold in your hands a powerful tome:"

https://search.yahoo.com/search?p="you+hold+in+your+hands+a+powerful+tome"

(Powerful tome? Don't hold back. Share it all with us.) Anyhow, it seems
that this particular powerful tome may have something to do with a game
named Riven?



Thank you,
--
Don.......My cat's )\._.,--....,'``.
telltale tall tail /, _.. \ _\ (`._ ,.
tells tall tales.. `._.-(,_..'--(,_..'`-.;.'
Dorothy J Heydt
2019-11-06 03:27:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by P. Taine
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by Scott Lurndal
Post by p***@hotmail.com
Post by D B Davis
Post by P. Taine
Post by D B Davis
Post by p. pinto
- hi; the fourth wall is broken conceptually, at least, and
from rather a different direction - in the wonderful fredric
brown's "double standard" (_playboy_ 4/1963, in judith merril-
edited "_(the best of sci-fi) 9th annual s-f_" mayflower dell,
1967, 70, in "_paradox lost_" fredric brown, robert hale, 1975;
- and again, and again=C2=B0, in classically beautifully intensively
recomplicated fashion, in daniel galouye's "_counterfeit world_"
(gollancz 1964, hamlyn paperbacks 1983) (aka "_simulacron-3_"),
arguably intangibly but nonetheless very really for more than
one of the created world('s/s') characters.
You broke a fourth wall when you went through the looking glass to
examine the characteristic fourth wall within that only applies to a
character and not the all seeing audience. (OK, that sentence was too
cute by half, but who can resist such things? Your further indulgence is
appreciated.)
Now that you've liberated us, we can speak of the fourth wall
implicit in _Hamlet_'s "The Mouse Trap." But, it's unsatisfying because
_Hamlet_'s not pure literature, it's a play.
We need pure literature along the lines of _simulacron-3_. PKD liked
to focus on the fragile nature of reality. There ought to be something
apropos in his opus, something popular. Let's see... Got it!
_Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep_ breaks the fourth wall of a
character named Rachel Rosen by disclosing to her that she is an
android. Rosen naturally becomes quite upset and despondent.
Now that my jury-rigged structure's in place, we can finally talk
about the almighty audience's literal fourth wall. How does the fourth
wall manifest itself in literature?
In a play it's easy to see. A character merely talks directly to the
audience. How does that happen in literature? (An example speaks a
thousand words.)
Will a non-SF novel do? Tristram Shandy. The book (over 250 years old)
includes a marbled page which the author states, in the book,
represents the
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by Scott Lurndal
Post by p***@hotmail.com
Post by D B Davis
Post by P. Taine
strucutre of said book. Elsewhere, there are printed lines,
complete with side
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by Scott Lurndal
Post by p***@hotmail.com
Post by D B Davis
Post by P. Taine
loops and angle, which the reader is told show the digressions
in the previous
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by Scott Lurndal
Post by p***@hotmail.com
Post by D B Davis
Post by P. Taine
chapters. In a number of other places the reader is addressed directly.
Will that do?
Excellent! FWIW, here's my take on your answer: a narcissistic book, if
you will, breaks the fourth wall when it talks about itself. Although
talking about itself in the first person is a delicious prospect,=20
addressing itself in the third person also works, as does non-SF.=20
Intriguing. It's time for me to ruminate.
Don't overdo it. A significant percentage of greenhouse gases is
methane from ruminating animals.
Of course those greenhouse gasses are _part_ of the standard carbon
cycle. They're not releasing 100-million-year-sequestered carbon
into the atmosphere. In the normal carbon cycle, the ruminant
emissions would make new feed (crops) for the animals and the cycle
would continue.
If the animals are organic grass fed on ancient pasture,
yes. Otherwise... clearing forest de-sequesters,
for one thing.
Back at the fourth wall... Spike Milligan's _Puckoon_
has one or more characters quarrel with the author.
I think Flann O'Brien also did that. Roger Zelazny's
"Amber" novels are mostly narrated by Corwin or by
Merlin (not that one), Corwin in particular losing his
temper with his audience sometimes - that being
"possible spoiler character", not us.
Further rumination led me to ask myself, "What does a narcissistic book
say?"
"You hold in your hands" seemed a worthy contender. A search on that
phrase eventually yields "you hold in your hands a powerful tome:"
https://search.yahoo.com/search?p="you+hold+in+your+hands+a+powerful+tome"
(Powerful tome? Don't hold back. Share it all with us.) Anyhow, it seems
that this particular powerful tome may have something to do with a game
named Riven?
Exactly so. It was the sequel to _Myst, and the "powerful tome"
was the hint book to the game.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/
Juho Julkunen
2019-11-06 12:11:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by P. Taine
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by Scott Lurndal
Post by p***@hotmail.com
Post by D B Davis
Post by P. Taine
Post by D B Davis
Post by p. pinto
- hi; the fourth wall is broken conceptually, at least, and
from rather a different direction - in the wonderful fredric
brown's "double standard" (_playboy_ 4/1963, in judith merril-
edited "_(the best of sci-fi) 9th annual s-f_" mayflower dell,
1967, 70, in "_paradox lost_" fredric brown, robert hale, 1975;
- and again, and again=C2=B0, in classically beautifully intensively
recomplicated fashion, in daniel galouye's "_counterfeit world_"
(gollancz 1964, hamlyn paperbacks 1983) (aka "_simulacron-3_"),
arguably intangibly but nonetheless very really for more than
one of the created world('s/s') characters.
You broke a fourth wall when you went through the looking glass to
examine the characteristic fourth wall within that only applies to a
character and not the all seeing audience. (OK, that sentence was too
cute by half, but who can resist such things? Your further indulgence is
appreciated.)
Now that you've liberated us, we can speak of the fourth wall
implicit in _Hamlet_'s "The Mouse Trap." But, it's unsatisfying because
_Hamlet_'s not pure literature, it's a play.
We need pure literature along the lines of _simulacron-3_. PKD liked
to focus on the fragile nature of reality. There ought to be something
apropos in his opus, something popular. Let's see... Got it!
_Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep_ breaks the fourth wall of a
character named Rachel Rosen by disclosing to her that she is an
android. Rosen naturally becomes quite upset and despondent.
Now that my jury-rigged structure's in place, we can finally talk
about the almighty audience's literal fourth wall. How does the fourth
wall manifest itself in literature?
In a play it's easy to see. A character merely talks directly to the
audience. How does that happen in literature? (An example speaks a
thousand words.)
Will a non-SF novel do? Tristram Shandy. The book (over 250 years old)
includes a marbled page which the author states, in the book,
represents the
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by Scott Lurndal
Post by p***@hotmail.com
Post by D B Davis
Post by P. Taine
strucutre of said book. Elsewhere, there are printed lines,
complete with side
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by Scott Lurndal
Post by p***@hotmail.com
Post by D B Davis
Post by P. Taine
loops and angle, which the reader is told show the digressions
in the previous
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by Scott Lurndal
Post by p***@hotmail.com
Post by D B Davis
Post by P. Taine
chapters. In a number of other places the reader is addressed directly.
Will that do?
Excellent! FWIW, here's my take on your answer: a narcissistic book, if
you will, breaks the fourth wall when it talks about itself. Although
talking about itself in the first person is a delicious prospect,=20
addressing itself in the third person also works, as does non-SF.=20
Intriguing. It's time for me to ruminate.
Don't overdo it. A significant percentage of greenhouse gases is
methane from ruminating animals.
Of course those greenhouse gasses are _part_ of the standard carbon
cycle. They're not releasing 100-million-year-sequestered carbon
into the atmosphere. In the normal carbon cycle, the ruminant
emissions would make new feed (crops) for the animals and the cycle
would continue.
If the animals are organic grass fed on ancient pasture,
yes. Otherwise... clearing forest de-sequesters,
for one thing.
Back at the fourth wall... Spike Milligan's _Puckoon_
has one or more characters quarrel with the author.
I think Flann O'Brien also did that. Roger Zelazny's
"Amber" novels are mostly narrated by Corwin or by
Merlin (not that one), Corwin in particular losing his
temper with his audience sometimes - that being
"possible spoiler character", not us.
Further rumination led me to ask myself, "What does a narcissistic book
say?"
"You hold in your hands" seemed a worthy contender. A search on that
phrase eventually yields "you hold in your hands a powerful tome:"
https://search.yahoo.com/search?p="you+hold+in+your+hands+a+powerful+tome"
(Powerful tome? Don't hold back. Share it all with us.) Anyhow, it seems
that this particular powerful tome may have something to do with a game
named Riven?
Exactly so. It was the sequel to _Myst, and the "powerful tome"
was the hint book to the game.
It might be worth noting that the world of the game features very
powerful books.
--
Juho Julkunen
Dorothy J Heydt
2019-11-06 13:47:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by p. pinto
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by P. Taine
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by Scott Lurndal
Post by p***@hotmail.com
Post by D B Davis
On Tue, 5 Nov 2019 15:15:10 -0000 (UTC), D B Davis
Post by D B Davis
Post by p. pinto
- hi; the fourth wall is broken conceptually, at least, and
from rather a different direction - in the wonderful fredric
brown's "double standard" (_playboy_ 4/1963, in judith merril-
edited "_(the best of sci-fi) 9th annual s-f_" mayflower dell,
1967, 70, in "_paradox lost_" fredric brown, robert hale, 1975;
- and again, and again=C2=B0, in classically beautifully
intensively
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by P. Taine
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by Scott Lurndal
Post by p***@hotmail.com
Post by D B Davis
Post by D B Davis
Post by p. pinto
recomplicated fashion, in daniel galouye's "_counterfeit world_"
(gollancz 1964, hamlyn paperbacks 1983) (aka "_simulacron-3_"),
arguably intangibly but nonetheless very really for more than
one of the created world('s/s') characters.
You broke a fourth wall when you went through the looking glass to
examine the characteristic fourth wall within that only applies to a
character and not the all seeing audience. (OK, that sentence was too
cute by half, but who can resist such things? Your further
indulgence is
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by P. Taine
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by Scott Lurndal
Post by p***@hotmail.com
Post by D B Davis
Post by D B Davis
appreciated.)
Now that you've liberated us, we can speak of the fourth wall
implicit in _Hamlet_'s "The Mouse Trap." But, it's
unsatisfying because
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by P. Taine
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by Scott Lurndal
Post by p***@hotmail.com
Post by D B Davis
Post by D B Davis
_Hamlet_'s not pure literature, it's a play.
We need pure literature along the lines of
_simulacron-3_. PKD liked
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by P. Taine
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by Scott Lurndal
Post by p***@hotmail.com
Post by D B Davis
Post by D B Davis
to focus on the fragile nature of reality. There ought to be
something
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by P. Taine
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by Scott Lurndal
Post by p***@hotmail.com
Post by D B Davis
Post by D B Davis
apropos in his opus, something popular. Let's see... Got it!
_Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep_ breaks the fourth wall of a
character named Rachel Rosen by disclosing to her that she is an
android. Rosen naturally becomes quite upset and despondent.
Now that my jury-rigged structure's in place, we can finally talk
about the almighty audience's literal fourth wall. How does
the fourth
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by P. Taine
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by Scott Lurndal
Post by p***@hotmail.com
Post by D B Davis
Post by D B Davis
wall manifest itself in literature?
In a play it's easy to see. A character merely talks
directly to the
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by P. Taine
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by Scott Lurndal
Post by p***@hotmail.com
Post by D B Davis
Post by D B Davis
audience. How does that happen in literature? (An example speaks a
thousand words.)
Will a non-SF novel do? Tristram Shandy. The book (over 250
years old)
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by P. Taine
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by Scott Lurndal
Post by p***@hotmail.com
Post by D B Davis
includes a marbled page which the author states, in the book,
represents the
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by Scott Lurndal
Post by p***@hotmail.com
Post by D B Davis
strucutre of said book. Elsewhere, there are printed lines,
complete with side
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by Scott Lurndal
Post by p***@hotmail.com
Post by D B Davis
loops and angle, which the reader is told show the digressions
in the previous
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by Scott Lurndal
Post by p***@hotmail.com
Post by D B Davis
chapters. In a number of other places the reader is
addressed directly.
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by P. Taine
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by Scott Lurndal
Post by p***@hotmail.com
Post by D B Davis
Will that do?
Excellent! FWIW, here's my take on your answer: a narcissistic book, if
you will, breaks the fourth wall when it talks about itself. Although
talking about itself in the first person is a delicious prospect,=20
addressing itself in the third person also works, as does non-SF.=20
Intriguing. It's time for me to ruminate.
Don't overdo it. A significant percentage of greenhouse gases is
methane from ruminating animals.
Of course those greenhouse gasses are _part_ of the standard carbon
cycle. They're not releasing 100-million-year-sequestered carbon
into the atmosphere. In the normal carbon cycle, the ruminant
emissions would make new feed (crops) for the animals and the cycle
would continue.
If the animals are organic grass fed on ancient pasture,
yes. Otherwise... clearing forest de-sequesters,
for one thing.
Back at the fourth wall... Spike Milligan's _Puckoon_
has one or more characters quarrel with the author.
I think Flann O'Brien also did that. Roger Zelazny's
"Amber" novels are mostly narrated by Corwin or by
Merlin (not that one), Corwin in particular losing his
temper with his audience sometimes - that being
"possible spoiler character", not us.
Further rumination led me to ask myself, "What does a narcissistic book
say?"
"You hold in your hands" seemed a worthy contender. A search on that
phrase eventually yields "you hold in your hands a powerful tome:"
https://search.yahoo.com/search?p="you+hold+in+your+hands+a+powerful+tome"
(Powerful tome? Don't hold back. Share it all with us.) Anyhow, it seems
that this particular powerful tome may have something to do with a game
named Riven?
Exactly so. It was the sequel to _Myst, and the "powerful tome"
was the hint book to the game.
It might be worth noting that the world of the game features very
powerful books.
_Myst_ did. I can't remember enough about _Riven_ to say whether
it used books or not.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/
Titus G
2019-11-06 03:57:29 UTC
Permalink
On 6/11/19 10:37 AM, Robert Carnegie wrote:
much snippage
Post by Robert Carnegie
Back at the fourth wall... Spike Milligan's _Puckoon_
has one or more characters quarrel with the author.
I think Flann O'Brien also did that.
Stephen King appears in one of the last books in the Dark Tower series.
Ted Nolan <tednolan>
2019-11-06 04:32:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Titus G
much snippage
Post by Robert Carnegie
Back at the fourth wall... Spike Milligan's _Puckoon_
has one or more characters quarrel with the author.
I think Flann O'Brien also did that.
Stephen King appears in one of the last books in the Dark Tower series.
It's in a number of SF books. Grimes meets Chandler as I recall,
also Lin Carter had is own adventures on Callisto, Zelazney was a
night watchman (or somesuch) in Amber, and while not a perfect match,
there was a chap with interesting initials on Riverworld.
--
columbiaclosings.com
What's not in Columbia anymore..
Chrysi Cat
2019-11-06 05:02:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Post by Titus G
much snippage
Post by Robert Carnegie
Back at the fourth wall... Spike Milligan's _Puckoon_
has one or more characters quarrel with the author.
I think Flann O'Brien also did that.
Stephen King appears in one of the last books in the Dark Tower series.
It's in a number of SF books. Grimes meets Chandler as I recall,
also Lin Carter had is own adventures on Callisto, Zelazney was a
night watchman (or somesuch) in Amber, and while not a perfect match,
there was a chap with interesting initials on Riverworld.
Being as Riverworld IS our afterlife, I'd expect the /actual/ Mr. Farmer
is out there too, someplace; the /author/ one just isn't willing to show
him "on panel". :-P
--
Chrysi Cat
1/2 anthrocat, nearly 1/2 anthrofox, all magical
Transgoddess, quick to anger.
Call me Chrysi or call me Kat, I'll respond to either!
Titus G
2019-11-06 05:16:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Post by Titus G
much snippage
Post by Robert Carnegie
Back at the fourth wall... Spike Milligan's _Puckoon_
has one or more characters quarrel with the author.
I think Flann O'Brien also did that.
Stephen King appears in one of the last books in the Dark Tower series.
It's in a number of SF books. Grimes meets Chandler as I recall,
also Lin Carter had is own adventures on Callisto, Zelazney was a
night watchman (or somesuch) in Amber, and while not a perfect match,
there was a chap with interesting initials on Riverworld.
Although I do not know your references, yes, I am sure it is. I can't
recall an example offhand but suspect it is something that Red Dwarf
would also have explored.
Robert Carnegie
2019-11-06 15:04:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Titus G
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Post by Titus G
much snippage
Post by Robert Carnegie
Back at the fourth wall... Spike Milligan's _Puckoon_
has one or more characters quarrel with the author.
I think Flann O'Brien also did that.
Stephen King appears in one of the last books in the Dark Tower series.
It's in a number of SF books. Grimes meets Chandler as I recall,
also Lin Carter had is own adventures on Callisto, Zelazney was a
night watchman (or somesuch) in Amber, and while not a perfect match,
there was a chap with interesting initials on Riverworld.
Although I do not know your references, yes, I am sure it is. I can't
recall an example offhand but suspect it is something that Red Dwarf
would also have explored.
Oh... three times. At least. Roughly.

"Better Than Life" had the survivors play an addictive virtual-reality
game of that name that adapts to meet all of your life expectations.
On TV, Arnold Rimmer's poorly planned expectations made the game
less addictive for everyone.

"Back to Reality" tells us that _Red Dwarf_ itself is a game that
they've been living in on Earth for four years: they wake up like
the cast of _Alien_ and have to come to terms with reality.
Which in one case is Dwayne Dibbley.

"Back to Earth" has them arrive on 21st century Earth, and find
out that they are science fiction characters and the writer intends
to kill them off in "Back to Earth". I'll just mention that there
have been three more series... Oh, and Craig Charles appears as
himself.

Then there's the one where Kryten has a robot mid life crisis
and has some questions to ask the universe...
Titus G
2019-11-07 02:50:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by Titus G
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Post by Titus G
much snippage
Post by Robert Carnegie
Back at the fourth wall... Spike Milligan's _Puckoon_
has one or more characters quarrel with the author.
I think Flann O'Brien also did that.
Stephen King appears in one of the last books in the Dark Tower series.
It's in a number of SF books. Grimes meets Chandler as I recall,
also Lin Carter had is own adventures on Callisto, Zelazney was a
night watchman (or somesuch) in Amber, and while not a perfect match,
there was a chap with interesting initials on Riverworld.
Although I do not know your references, yes, I am sure it is. I can't
recall an example offhand but suspect it is something that Red Dwarf
would also have explored.
Oh... three times. At least. Roughly.
"Better Than Life" had the survivors play an addictive virtual-reality
game of that name that adapts to meet all of your life expectations.
On TV, Arnold Rimmer's poorly planned expectations made the game
less addictive for everyone.
"Back to Reality" tells us that _Red Dwarf_ itself is a game that
they've been living in on Earth for four years: they wake up like
the cast of _Alien_ and have to come to terms with reality.
Which in one case is Dwayne Dibbley.
"Back to Earth" has them arrive on 21st century Earth, and find
out that they are science fiction characters and the writer intends
to kill them off in "Back to Earth". I'll just mention that there
have been three more series... Oh, and Craig Charles appears as
himself.
Thanks for bringing back the memories. I have often thought of
re-watching all the series but never began doing so.
Post by Robert Carnegie
Then there's the one where Kryten has a robot mid life crisis
and has some questions to ask the universe...
D B Davis
2019-11-06 16:41:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Post by Titus G
much snippage
Post by Robert Carnegie
Back at the fourth wall... Spike Milligan's _Puckoon_
has one or more characters quarrel with the author.
I think Flann O'Brien also did that.
Stephen King appears in one of the last books in the Dark Tower series.
It's in a number of SF books. Grimes meets Chandler as I recall,
also Lin Carter had is own adventures on Callisto, Zelazney was a
night watchman (or somesuch) in Amber, and while not a perfect match,
there was a chap with interesting initials on Riverworld.
_The City on the Edge of Forever_ (ISBN 9781631402067) saw the light of
day a few years before Harlan Ellison's demise. It has a character named
Trooper who lost both legs at the Battle of Verdun. Trooper was drawn in
the image of Ellison. Trooper scoots around city sidewalks on a platform
with small wheels underneath. He sells apples and pencils to earn money.
Trooper was totally excised from Roddenberry's production, for
budget reasons, it is said. Trooper also happens to make Uncle Sam look
bad because Trooper brings to mind the Bonus Army incident.



Thank you,
--
Don.......My cat's )\._.,--....,'``.
telltale tall tail /, _.. \ _\ (`._ ,.
tells tall tales.. `._.-(,_..'--(,_..'`-.;.'
h***@gmail.com
2019-11-06 03:35:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by Scott Lurndal
Post by p***@hotmail.com
Don't overdo it. A significant percentage of greenhouse gases is
methane from ruminating animals.
Of course those greenhouse gasses are _part_ of the standard carbon
cycle. They're not releasing 100-million-year-sequestered carbon
into the atmosphere. In the normal carbon cycle, the ruminant
emissions would make new feed (crops) for the animals and the cycle
would continue.
How does the number of human raised cattle compare to the number there were around before we started raising them?
How does the methane production of farmed cows compare to the methane production of pre-domestication wild cattle?

Because that could disrupt the cycle.
Titus G
2019-11-06 05:11:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by h***@gmail.com
Post by Scott Lurndal
Post by p***@hotmail.com
Don't overdo it. A significant percentage of greenhouse gases is
methane from ruminating animals.
Of course those greenhouse gasses are _part_ of the standard carbon
cycle. They're not releasing 100-million-year-sequestered carbon
into the atmosphere. In the normal carbon cycle, the ruminant
emissions would make new feed (crops) for the animals and the cycle
would continue.
How does the number of human raised cattle compare to the number there were around before we started raising them?
How does the methane production of farmed cows compare to the methane production of pre-domestication wild cattle?
Because that could disrupt the cycle.
That is what my instinct tells me but I am often wrong and am biased and
embarrassed since the NZ government issued free gumboots and gas masks
to anyone who was likely to go within five miles of a river or stream
downstream from a dairy farm supporting Chinese mothers opposed to, or
incapable of, breastfeeding their pollywogs.
Moriarty
2019-11-05 21:11:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by D B Davis
Post by P. Taine
Post by D B Davis
Post by p. pinto
- hi; the fourth wall is broken conceptually, at least, and
from rather a different direction - in the wonderful fredric
brown's "double standard" (_playboy_ 4/1963, in judith merril-
edited "_(the best of sci-fi) 9th annual s-f_" mayflower dell,
1967, 70, in "_paradox lost_" fredric brown, robert hale, 1975;
- and again, and again°, in classically beautifully intensively
recomplicated fashion, in daniel galouye's "_counterfeit world_"
(gollancz 1964, hamlyn paperbacks 1983) (aka "_simulacron-3_"),
arguably intangibly but nonetheless very really for more than
one of the created world('s/s') characters.
You broke a fourth wall when you went through the looking glass to
examine the characteristic fourth wall within that only applies to a
character and not the all seeing audience. (OK, that sentence was too
cute by half, but who can resist such things? Your further indulgence is
appreciated.)
Now that you've liberated us, we can speak of the fourth wall
implicit in _Hamlet_'s "The Mouse Trap." But, it's unsatisfying because
_Hamlet_'s not pure literature, it's a play.
We need pure literature along the lines of _simulacron-3_. PKD liked
to focus on the fragile nature of reality. There ought to be something
apropos in his opus, something popular. Let's see... Got it!
_Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep_ breaks the fourth wall of a
character named Rachel Rosen by disclosing to her that she is an
android. Rosen naturally becomes quite upset and despondent.
Now that my jury-rigged structure's in place, we can finally talk
about the almighty audience's literal fourth wall. How does the fourth
wall manifest itself in literature?
In a play it's easy to see. A character merely talks directly to the
audience. How does that happen in literature? (An example speaks a
thousand words.)
Will a non-SF novel do? Tristram Shandy. The book (over 250 years old)
includes a marbled page which the author states, in the book, represents the
strucutre of said book. Elsewhere, there are printed lines, complete with sid
e
Post by P. Taine
loops and angle, which the reader is told show the digressions in the previous
chapters. In a number of other places the reader is addressed directly.
Will that do?
Excellent! FWIW, here's my take on your answer: a narcissistic book, if
you will, breaks the fourth wall when it talks about itself. Although
talking about itself in the first person is a delicious prospect,
addressing itself in the third person also works, as does non-SF.
Intriguing. It's time for me to ruminate.
A narcissistic book? I like the term. Plenty of Robert Rankin's books are like that. In one, a character gets excited that "his" author is writing another novel and as a result he, the character, will get out more.

Rambo Bloodaxe is idling the time away and sees a giant pen and a pint flying through the air. "It's Rankin, he's in the pub again and he's writing."

From "They Came and Ate Us". I think. It qualifies as SF since the main characters are Elvis Presley and a time travelling Brussels sprout named Barry.

-Moriarty
Kevrob
2019-11-05 21:16:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by Moriarty
Post by D B Davis
Post by P. Taine
Post by D B Davis
Post by p. pinto
- hi; the fourth wall is broken conceptually, at least, and
from rather a different direction - in the wonderful fredric
brown's "double standard" (_playboy_ 4/1963, in judith merril-
edited "_(the best of sci-fi) 9th annual s-f_" mayflower dell,
1967, 70, in "_paradox lost_" fredric brown, robert hale, 1975;
- and again, and again°, in classically beautifully intensively
recomplicated fashion, in daniel galouye's "_counterfeit world_"
(gollancz 1964, hamlyn paperbacks 1983) (aka "_simulacron-3_"),
arguably intangibly but nonetheless very really for more than
one of the created world('s/s') characters.
You broke a fourth wall when you went through the looking glass to
examine the characteristic fourth wall within that only applies to a
character and not the all seeing audience. (OK, that sentence was too
cute by half, but who can resist such things? Your further indulgence is
appreciated.)
Now that you've liberated us, we can speak of the fourth wall
implicit in _Hamlet_'s "The Mouse Trap." But, it's unsatisfying because
_Hamlet_'s not pure literature, it's a play.
We need pure literature along the lines of _simulacron-3_. PKD liked
to focus on the fragile nature of reality. There ought to be something
apropos in his opus, something popular. Let's see... Got it!
_Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep_ breaks the fourth wall of a
character named Rachel Rosen by disclosing to her that she is an
android. Rosen naturally becomes quite upset and despondent.
Now that my jury-rigged structure's in place, we can finally talk
about the almighty audience's literal fourth wall. How does the fourth
wall manifest itself in literature?
In a play it's easy to see. A character merely talks directly to the
audience. How does that happen in literature? (An example speaks a
thousand words.)
Will a non-SF novel do? Tristram Shandy. The book (over 250 years old)
includes a marbled page which the author states, in the book, represents the
strucutre of said book. Elsewhere, there are printed lines, complete with sid
e
Post by P. Taine
loops and angle, which the reader is told show the digressions in the previous
chapters. In a number of other places the reader is addressed directly.
Will that do?
Excellent! FWIW, here's my take on your answer: a narcissistic book, if
you will, breaks the fourth wall when it talks about itself. Although
talking about itself in the first person is a delicious prospect,
addressing itself in the third person also works, as does non-SF.
Intriguing. It's time for me to ruminate.
A narcissistic book? I like the term. Plenty of Robert Rankin's books are like that. In one, a character gets excited that "his" author is writing another novel and as a result he, the character, will get out more.
Rambo Bloodaxe is idling the time away and sees a giant pen and a pint flying through the air. "It's Rankin, he's in the pub again and he's writing."
From "They Came and Ate Us". I think. It qualifies as SF since the main characters are Elvis Presley and a time travelling Brussels sprout named Barry.
-Moriarty
Who remembers Max Fleischer's "Out of the Inkwell" cartoons?

Koko the Clown, played by Max's brother, Dave, regularly "escaped"
the drawing board.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Out_of_the_Inkwell

http://toonopedia.com/koko.htm

Betty Boop started as a "player" in Koko cartoons.

Kevin R
Chrysi Cat
2019-11-06 05:05:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kevrob
Post by Moriarty
Post by D B Davis
Post by P. Taine
Post by D B Davis
Post by p. pinto
- hi; the fourth wall is broken conceptually, at least, and
from rather a different direction - in the wonderful fredric
brown's "double standard" (_playboy_ 4/1963, in judith merril-
edited "_(the best of sci-fi) 9th annual s-f_" mayflower dell,
1967, 70, in "_paradox lost_" fredric brown, robert hale, 1975;
- and again, and again°, in classically beautifully intensively
recomplicated fashion, in daniel galouye's "_counterfeit world_"
(gollancz 1964, hamlyn paperbacks 1983) (aka "_simulacron-3_"),
arguably intangibly but nonetheless very really for more than
one of the created world('s/s') characters.
You broke a fourth wall when you went through the looking glass to
examine the characteristic fourth wall within that only applies to a
character and not the all seeing audience. (OK, that sentence was too
cute by half, but who can resist such things? Your further indulgence is
appreciated.)
Now that you've liberated us, we can speak of the fourth wall
implicit in _Hamlet_'s "The Mouse Trap." But, it's unsatisfying because
_Hamlet_'s not pure literature, it's a play.
We need pure literature along the lines of _simulacron-3_. PKD liked
to focus on the fragile nature of reality. There ought to be something
apropos in his opus, something popular. Let's see... Got it!
_Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep_ breaks the fourth wall of a
character named Rachel Rosen by disclosing to her that she is an
android. Rosen naturally becomes quite upset and despondent.
Now that my jury-rigged structure's in place, we can finally talk
about the almighty audience's literal fourth wall. How does the fourth
wall manifest itself in literature?
In a play it's easy to see. A character merely talks directly to the
audience. How does that happen in literature? (An example speaks a
thousand words.)
Will a non-SF novel do? Tristram Shandy. The book (over 250 years old)
includes a marbled page which the author states, in the book, represents the
strucutre of said book. Elsewhere, there are printed lines, complete with sid
e
Post by P. Taine
loops and angle, which the reader is told show the digressions in the previous
chapters. In a number of other places the reader is addressed directly.
Will that do?
Excellent! FWIW, here's my take on your answer: a narcissistic book, if
you will, breaks the fourth wall when it talks about itself. Although
talking about itself in the first person is a delicious prospect,
addressing itself in the third person also works, as does non-SF.
Intriguing. It's time for me to ruminate.
A narcissistic book? I like the term. Plenty of Robert Rankin's books are like that. In one, a character gets excited that "his" author is writing another novel and as a result he, the character, will get out more.
Rambo Bloodaxe is idling the time away and sees a giant pen and a pint flying through the air. "It's Rankin, he's in the pub again and he's writing."
From "They Came and Ate Us". I think. It qualifies as SF since the main characters are Elvis Presley and a time travelling Brussels sprout named Barry.
-Moriarty
Who remembers Max Fleischer's "Out of the Inkwell" cartoons?
Koko the Clown, played by Max's brother, Dave, regularly "escaped"
the drawing board.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Out_of_the_Inkwell
http://toonopedia.com/koko.htm
Betty Boop started as a "player" in Koko cartoons.
Kevin R
In which she was also a canine-American. Betty is at least as
responsible for furry fandom as Minnie Mouse and Daisy Duck, since while
she came after Mickey, she also appeared before those two.
--
Chrysi Cat
1/2 anthrocat, nearly 1/2 anthrofox, all magical
Transgoddess, quick to anger.
Call me Chrysi or call me Kat, I'll respond to either!
Ted Nolan <tednolan>
2019-11-06 05:39:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by P. Taine
Post by Kevrob
Post by Moriarty
Post by D B Davis
Post by P. Taine
Post by D B Davis
Post by p. pinto
- hi; the fourth wall is broken conceptually, at least, and
from rather a different direction - in the wonderful fredric
brown's "double standard" (_playboy_ 4/1963, in judith merril-
edited "_(the best of sci-fi) 9th annual s-f_" mayflower dell,
1967, 70, in "_paradox lost_" fredric brown, robert hale, 1975;
- and again, and again°, in classically beautifully intensively
recomplicated fashion, in daniel galouye's "_counterfeit world_"
(gollancz 1964, hamlyn paperbacks 1983) (aka "_simulacron-3_"),
arguably intangibly but nonetheless very really for more than
one of the created world('s/s') characters.
You broke a fourth wall when you went through the looking glass to
examine the characteristic fourth wall within that only applies to a
character and not the all seeing audience. (OK, that sentence was too
cute by half, but who can resist such things? Your further indulgence is
appreciated.)
Now that you've liberated us, we can speak of the fourth wall
implicit in _Hamlet_'s "The Mouse Trap." But, it's unsatisfying because
_Hamlet_'s not pure literature, it's a play.
We need pure literature along the lines of _simulacron-3_. PKD liked
to focus on the fragile nature of reality. There ought to be something
apropos in his opus, something popular. Let's see... Got it!
_Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep_ breaks the fourth wall of a
character named Rachel Rosen by disclosing to her that she is an
android. Rosen naturally becomes quite upset and despondent.
Now that my jury-rigged structure's in place, we can finally talk
about the almighty audience's literal fourth wall. How does the fourth
wall manifest itself in literature?
In a play it's easy to see. A character merely talks directly to the
audience. How does that happen in literature? (An example speaks a
thousand words.)
Will a non-SF novel do? Tristram Shandy. The book (over 250 years old)
includes a marbled page which the author states, in the book,
represents the
Post by Kevrob
Post by Moriarty
Post by D B Davis
Post by P. Taine
strucutre of said book. Elsewhere, there are printed lines,
complete with sid
Post by Kevrob
Post by Moriarty
Post by D B Davis
e
Post by P. Taine
loops and angle, which the reader is told show the digressions in
the previous
Post by Kevrob
Post by Moriarty
Post by D B Davis
Post by P. Taine
chapters. In a number of other places the reader is addressed directly.
Will that do?
Excellent! FWIW, here's my take on your answer: a narcissistic book, if
you will, breaks the fourth wall when it talks about itself. Although
talking about itself in the first person is a delicious prospect,
addressing itself in the third person also works, as does non-SF.
Intriguing. It's time for me to ruminate.
A narcissistic book? I like the term. Plenty of Robert Rankin's books
are like that. In one, a character gets excited that "his" author is
writing another novel and as a result he, the character, will get out
more.
Post by Kevrob
Post by Moriarty
Rambo Bloodaxe is idling the time away and sees a giant pen and a
pint flying through the air. "It's Rankin, he's in the pub again and
he's writing."
Post by Kevrob
Post by Moriarty
From "They Came and Ate Us". I think. It qualifies as SF since the
main characters are Elvis Presley and a time travelling Brussels sprout
named Barry.
Post by Kevrob
Post by Moriarty
-Moriarty
Who remembers Max Fleischer's "Out of the Inkwell" cartoons?
Koko the Clown, played by Max's brother, Dave, regularly "escaped"
the drawing board.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Out_of_the_Inkwell
http://toonopedia.com/koko.htm
Betty Boop started as a "player" in Koko cartoons.
Kevin R
In which she was also a canine-American. Betty is at least as
responsible for furry fandom as Minnie Mouse and Daisy Duck, since while
she came after Mickey, she also appeared before those two.
She also introduced Popeye The Sailor to the silver screen.
--
columbiaclosings.com
What's not in Columbia anymore..
Kevrob
2019-11-06 13:55:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Post by P. Taine
Post by Kevrob
Post by Moriarty
Post by D B Davis
Post by P. Taine
Post by D B Davis
Post by p. pinto
- hi; the fourth wall is broken conceptually, at least, and
from rather a different direction - in the wonderful fredric
brown's "double standard" (_playboy_ 4/1963, in judith merril-
edited "_(the best of sci-fi) 9th annual s-f_" mayflower dell,
1967, 70, in "_paradox lost_" fredric brown, robert hale, 1975;
- and again, and again°, in classically beautifully intensively
recomplicated fashion, in daniel galouye's "_counterfeit world_"
(gollancz 1964, hamlyn paperbacks 1983) (aka "_simulacron-3_"),
arguably intangibly but nonetheless very really for more than
one of the created world('s/s') characters.
You broke a fourth wall when you went through the looking glass to
examine the characteristic fourth wall within that only applies to a
character and not the all seeing audience. (OK, that sentence was too
cute by half, but who can resist such things? Your further indulgence is
appreciated.)
Now that you've liberated us, we can speak of the fourth wall
implicit in _Hamlet_'s "The Mouse Trap." But, it's unsatisfying because
_Hamlet_'s not pure literature, it's a play.
We need pure literature along the lines of _simulacron-3_. PKD liked
to focus on the fragile nature of reality. There ought to be something
apropos in his opus, something popular. Let's see... Got it!
_Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep_ breaks the fourth wall of a
character named Rachel Rosen by disclosing to her that she is an
android. Rosen naturally becomes quite upset and despondent.
Now that my jury-rigged structure's in place, we can finally talk
about the almighty audience's literal fourth wall. How does the fourth
wall manifest itself in literature?
In a play it's easy to see. A character merely talks directly to the
audience. How does that happen in literature? (An example speaks a
thousand words.)
Will a non-SF novel do? Tristram Shandy. The book (over 250 years old)
includes a marbled page which the author states, in the book,
represents the
Post by Kevrob
Post by Moriarty
Post by D B Davis
Post by P. Taine
strucutre of said book. Elsewhere, there are printed lines,
complete with sid
Post by Kevrob
Post by Moriarty
Post by D B Davis
e
Post by P. Taine
loops and angle, which the reader is told show the digressions in
the previous
Post by Kevrob
Post by Moriarty
Post by D B Davis
Post by P. Taine
chapters. In a number of other places the reader is addressed directly.
Will that do?
Excellent! FWIW, here's my take on your answer: a narcissistic book, if
you will, breaks the fourth wall when it talks about itself. Although
talking about itself in the first person is a delicious prospect,
addressing itself in the third person also works, as does non-SF.
Intriguing. It's time for me to ruminate.
A narcissistic book? I like the term. Plenty of Robert Rankin's books
are like that. In one, a character gets excited that "his" author is
writing another novel and as a result he, the character, will get out
more.
Post by Kevrob
Post by Moriarty
Rambo Bloodaxe is idling the time away and sees a giant pen and a
pint flying through the air. "It's Rankin, he's in the pub again and
he's writing."
Post by Kevrob
Post by Moriarty
From "They Came and Ate Us". I think. It qualifies as SF since the
main characters are Elvis Presley and a time travelling Brussels sprout
named Barry.
Post by Kevrob
Post by Moriarty
-Moriarty
Who remembers Max Fleischer's "Out of the Inkwell" cartoons?
Koko the Clown, played by Max's brother, Dave, regularly "escaped"
the drawing board.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Out_of_the_Inkwell
http://toonopedia.com/koko.htm
Betty Boop started as a "player" in Koko cartoons.
Kevin R
In which she was also a canine-American. Betty is at least as
responsible for furry fandom as Minnie Mouse and Daisy Duck, since while
she came after Mickey, she also appeared before those two.
She also introduced Popeye The Sailor to the silver screen.
--
The Fleischers introduced SUPERMAN to the screen,though
there was no cameo in their other cartoons. The Man of Tomorrow
did have to deal with a villain Funnyface, whose schtick was
releasing comics characters from the Daily Planet's pages
into "real world" Metropolis.

https://babblingsaboutdccomics3.wordpress.com/2015/06/17/superman-19-superman-vs-funny-face-and-superman-as-a-movie-star/

Case of the Funny Paper Crimes

From SUPERMAN 19, NOV-DEC 1942, reprints noted, here:

https://www.comics.org/issue/19796/#146767

The same issue had "Superman: Matinee Idol,"

https://cartoonresearch.com/index.php/the-lost-fleischer-superman-cartoon/

The GCD link above notes:

"Clark and Lois decide to go to the movies, but when Clark discovers
that it's the the latest Fleischer Superman cartoon, he has to think
fast to keep Lois from discovering that he is Superman."

The Cartoon Research article says:

"It is never explained why he never worries that the rest of the
audience as well as audiences around the country can be privy to
this information about his secret identity."

When Barry (The Flash) Allen met his predecessor,
Jay Garrick, it was in the alternate world Central
City's speedster designated "Earth-Two."* Barry knew
about Jay's secret life from comics published on "Earth-One"
that he read as a kid, and had saved.

Barry was perhaps the original "ascended fanboy."

In-story, it was suggested that the imaginations of the
E-1 comics scripters like Gardner Fox somehow "tuned-in"
to the alternate reality where Jay-Flash's adventures took place,
and manifested as dreams or daydreams which they used for stories.

* The JSA started adventuring 2 years before the JLA. Since they
had seniority, shouldn't their world have been "Earth-One?"

I probably read "Flash of Two Worlds," if not in its
original 1961 release, (FLASH 123) then in a 1965 reprint
(80-Page Giant #9.) I would have been 8, waiting to get my
hair cut at Larry's Barber Shop. My dad kept my brothers
and I in crew cuts, so I got to read a lot of comics at the
barber that I couldn't afford to buy.

Kevin R
Ted Nolan <tednolan>
2019-11-06 14:44:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by D B Davis
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Post by P. Taine
Post by Kevrob
Post by Moriarty
Post by D B Davis
Post by P. Taine
Post by D B Davis
Post by p. pinto
- hi; the fourth wall is broken conceptually, at least, and
from rather a different direction - in the wonderful fredric
brown's "double standard" (_playboy_ 4/1963, in judith merril-
edited "_(the best of sci-fi) 9th annual s-f_" mayflower dell,
1967, 70, in "_paradox lost_" fredric brown, robert hale, 1975;
- and again, and again°, in classically beautifully intensively
recomplicated fashion, in daniel galouye's "_counterfeit world_"
(gollancz 1964, hamlyn paperbacks 1983) (aka "_simulacron-3_"),
arguably intangibly but nonetheless very really for more than
one of the created world('s/s') characters.
You broke a fourth wall when you went through the looking glass to
examine the characteristic fourth wall within that only applies to a
character and not the all seeing audience. (OK, that sentence was too
cute by half, but who can resist such things? Your further
indulgence is
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Post by P. Taine
Post by Kevrob
Post by Moriarty
Post by D B Davis
Post by P. Taine
Post by D B Davis
appreciated.)
Now that you've liberated us, we can speak of the fourth wall
implicit in _Hamlet_'s "The Mouse Trap." But, it's unsatisfying because
_Hamlet_'s not pure literature, it's a play.
We need pure literature along the lines of _simulacron-3_.
PKD liked
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Post by P. Taine
Post by Kevrob
Post by Moriarty
Post by D B Davis
Post by P. Taine
Post by D B Davis
to focus on the fragile nature of reality. There ought to be something
apropos in his opus, something popular. Let's see... Got it!
_Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep_ breaks the fourth wall of a
character named Rachel Rosen by disclosing to her that she is an
android. Rosen naturally becomes quite upset and despondent.
Now that my jury-rigged structure's in place, we can finally talk
about the almighty audience's literal fourth wall. How does the fourth
wall manifest itself in literature?
In a play it's easy to see. A character merely talks
directly to the
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Post by P. Taine
Post by Kevrob
Post by Moriarty
Post by D B Davis
Post by P. Taine
Post by D B Davis
audience. How does that happen in literature? (An example speaks a
thousand words.)
Will a non-SF novel do? Tristram Shandy. The book (over 250 years old)
includes a marbled page which the author states, in the book,
represents the
Post by Kevrob
Post by Moriarty
Post by D B Davis
Post by P. Taine
strucutre of said book. Elsewhere, there are printed lines,
complete with sid
Post by Kevrob
Post by Moriarty
Post by D B Davis
e
Post by P. Taine
loops and angle, which the reader is told show the digressions in
the previous
Post by Kevrob
Post by Moriarty
Post by D B Davis
Post by P. Taine
chapters. In a number of other places the reader is addressed directly.
Will that do?
Excellent! FWIW, here's my take on your answer: a narcissistic book, if
you will, breaks the fourth wall when it talks about itself. Although
talking about itself in the first person is a delicious prospect,
addressing itself in the third person also works, as does non-SF.
Intriguing. It's time for me to ruminate.
A narcissistic book? I like the term. Plenty of Robert Rankin's books
are like that. In one, a character gets excited that "his" author is
writing another novel and as a result he, the character, will get out
more.
Post by Kevrob
Post by Moriarty
Rambo Bloodaxe is idling the time away and sees a giant pen and a
pint flying through the air. "It's Rankin, he's in the pub again and
he's writing."
Post by Kevrob
Post by Moriarty
From "They Came and Ate Us". I think. It qualifies as SF since the
main characters are Elvis Presley and a time travelling Brussels sprout
named Barry.
Post by Kevrob
Post by Moriarty
-Moriarty
Who remembers Max Fleischer's "Out of the Inkwell" cartoons?
Koko the Clown, played by Max's brother, Dave, regularly "escaped"
the drawing board.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Out_of_the_Inkwell
http://toonopedia.com/koko.htm
Betty Boop started as a "player" in Koko cartoons.
Kevin R
In which she was also a canine-American. Betty is at least as
responsible for furry fandom as Minnie Mouse and Daisy Duck, since while
she came after Mickey, she also appeared before those two.
She also introduced Popeye The Sailor to the silver screen.
--
The Fleischers introduced SUPERMAN to the screen,though
there was no cameo in their other cartoons. The Man of Tomorrow
[Trimming a lot of very interesting stuff]

There was one superman short where the Fleischer reuse of vocal talent
was very amusing to me. Superman is fighting a mad scientist, who makes
a speech, and you suddenly realize: Oh my gosh, Superman is fighting Popeye!
--
columbiaclosings.com
What's not in Columbia anymore..
Kevrob
2019-11-06 18:05:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
[Trimming a lot of very interesting stuff]
Thanks.
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
There was one superman short where the Fleischer reuse of vocal talent
was very amusing to me. Superman is fighting a mad scientist, who makes
a speech, and you suddenly realize: Oh my gosh, Superman is fighting Popeye!
That was the great Jack Mercer.

https://www.newsfromme.com/2015/09/29/the-top-20-voice-actors-jack-mercer/

Kevin R
Kevrob
2019-11-06 18:00:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kevrob
* The JSA started adventuring 2 years before the JLA. Since they
had seniority, shouldn't their world have been "Earth-One?"
I left out a zero. "...20 years before...."

Kevin R
t***@gmail.com
2019-11-07 13:56:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kevrob
Post by Moriarty
Post by D B Davis
Post by P. Taine
Post by D B Davis
Post by p. pinto
- hi; the fourth wall is broken conceptually, at least, and
from rather a different direction - in the wonderful fredric
brown's "double standard" (_playboy_ 4/1963, in judith merril-
edited "_(the best of sci-fi) 9th annual s-f_" mayflower dell,
1967, 70, in "_paradox lost_" fredric brown, robert hale, 1975;
- and again, and again°, in classically beautifully intensively
recomplicated fashion, in daniel galouye's "_counterfeit world_"
(gollancz 1964, hamlyn paperbacks 1983) (aka "_simulacron-3_"),
arguably intangibly but nonetheless very really for more than
one of the created world('s/s') characters.
You broke a fourth wall when you went through the looking glass to
examine the characteristic fourth wall within that only applies to a
character and not the all seeing audience. (OK, that sentence was too
cute by half, but who can resist such things? Your further indulgence is
appreciated.)
Now that you've liberated us, we can speak of the fourth wall
implicit in _Hamlet_'s "The Mouse Trap." But, it's unsatisfying because
_Hamlet_'s not pure literature, it's a play.
We need pure literature along the lines of _simulacron-3_. PKD liked
to focus on the fragile nature of reality. There ought to be something
apropos in his opus, something popular. Let's see... Got it!
_Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep_ breaks the fourth wall of a
character named Rachel Rosen by disclosing to her that she is an
android. Rosen naturally becomes quite upset and despondent.
Now that my jury-rigged structure's in place, we can finally talk
about the almighty audience's literal fourth wall. How does the fourth
wall manifest itself in literature?
In a play it's easy to see. A character merely talks directly to the
audience. How does that happen in literature? (An example speaks a
thousand words.)
Will a non-SF novel do? Tristram Shandy. The book (over 250 years old)
includes a marbled page which the author states, in the book, represents the
strucutre of said book. Elsewhere, there are printed lines, complete with sid
e
Post by P. Taine
loops and angle, which the reader is told show the digressions in the previous
chapters. In a number of other places the reader is addressed directly.
Will that do?
Excellent! FWIW, here's my take on your answer: a narcissistic book, if
you will, breaks the fourth wall when it talks about itself. Although
talking about itself in the first person is a delicious prospect,
addressing itself in the third person also works, as does non-SF.
Intriguing. It's time for me to ruminate.
A narcissistic book? I like the term. Plenty of Robert Rankin's books are like that. In one, a character gets excited that "his" author is writing another novel and as a result he, the character, will get out more.
Rambo Bloodaxe is idling the time away and sees a giant pen and a pint flying through the air. "It's Rankin, he's in the pub again and he's writing."
From "They Came and Ate Us". I think. It qualifies as SF since the main characters are Elvis Presley and a time travelling Brussels sprout named Barry.
-Moriarty
Who remembers Max Fleischer's "Out of the Inkwell" cartoons?
Koko the Clown, played by Max's brother, Dave, regularly "escaped"
the drawing board.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Out_of_the_Inkwell
http://toonopedia.com/koko.htm
Betty Boop started as a "player" in Koko cartoons.
Aha - when I am reading a thread about breaking the fourth wall,
and you mention cartoons, I immediately think about whole
bunches of wonderful Warner Brothers cartoons.

Tony, who always appreciates such opportunities
Kevrob
2019-11-07 23:52:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by t***@gmail.com
Post by Kevrob
Who remembers Max Fleischer's "Out of the Inkwell" cartoons?
Koko the Clown, played by Max's brother, Dave, regularly "escaped"
the drawing board.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Out_of_the_Inkwell
http://toonopedia.com/koko.htm
Betty Boop started as a "player" in Koko cartoons.
Aha - when I am reading a thread about breaking the fourth wall,
and you mention cartoons, I immediately think about whole
bunches of wonderful Warner Brothers cartoons.
Tony, who always appreciates such opportunities
"Duck Amuck," alone.....

https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x5yczh1

Kevin R

Dorothy J Heydt
2019-11-06 03:19:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by P. Taine
Post by D B Davis
Post by p. pinto
- hi; the fourth wall is broken conceptually, at least, and
from rather a different direction - in the wonderful fredric
brown's "double standard" (_playboy_ 4/1963, in judith merril-
edited "_(the best of sci-fi) 9th annual s-f_" mayflower dell,
1967, 70, in "_paradox lost_" fredric brown, robert hale, 1975;
- and again, and again°, in classically beautifully intensively
recomplicated fashion, in daniel galouye's "_counterfeit world_"
(gollancz 1964, hamlyn paperbacks 1983) (aka "_simulacron-3_"),
arguably intangibly but nonetheless very really for more than
one of the created world('s/s') characters.
You broke a fourth wall when you went through the looking glass to
examine the characteristic fourth wall within that only applies to a
character and not the all seeing audience. (OK, that sentence was too
cute by half, but who can resist such things? Your further indulgence is
appreciated.)
Now that you've liberated us, we can speak of the fourth wall
implicit in _Hamlet_'s "The Mouse Trap." But, it's unsatisfying because
_Hamlet_'s not pure literature, it's a play.
We need pure literature along the lines of _simulacron-3_. PKD liked
to focus on the fragile nature of reality. There ought to be something
apropos in his opus, something popular. Let's see... Got it!
_Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep_ breaks the fourth wall of a
character named Rachel Rosen by disclosing to her that she is an
android. Rosen naturally becomes quite upset and despondent.
Now that my jury-rigged structure's in place, we can finally talk
about the almighty audience's literal fourth wall. How does the fourth
wall manifest itself in literature?
In a play it's easy to see. A character merely talks directly to the
audience. How does that happen in literature? (An example speaks a
thousand words.)
?
Thank you,
Will a non-SF novel do? Tristram Shandy. The book (over 250 years old)
includes a marbled page which the author states, in the book, represents the
strucutre of said book. Elsewhere, there are printed lines, complete with side
loops and angle, which the reader is told show the digressions in the previous
chapters. In a number of other places the reader is addressed directly.
Will that do?
There's always, "Reader, I married him."
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/
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