Discussion:
"The 10 Best Completed SF and Fantasy Series (According to Me)" by Drew McCaffrey
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Lynn McGuire
2018-09-27 17:56:26 UTC
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"The 10 Best Completed SF and Fantasy Series (According to Me)" by Drew
McCaffrey

https://www.tor.com/2018/09/25/the-10-best-completed-sf-and-fantasy-series-according-to-me/

Wow, I have only read two of these, the Harry Potter and the Ender series.

Lynn
Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
2018-09-27 18:10:11 UTC
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Post by Lynn McGuire
"The 10 Best Completed SF and Fantasy Series (According to Me)"
by Drew McCaffrey
https://www.tor.com/2018/09/25/the-10-best-completed-sf-and-fanta
sy-series-according-to-me/
Wow, I have only read two of these, the Harry Potter and the
Ender series.
You'ven ever read Lord of the Ring?

I haven't even hear of half of them.

I have read Harry Potter and the Black Company stuff (though I don't
rememvber much of the latter; it's been a *long* time.)

As for the Gap series, yeah, I read the first book, and . . . never
again. I find no entertainment value in the books where the most
sympathetic character is the mass murdering, psychotic, sadistic
space pirate with no redeeming qualities whatsoever.

And the Wheel of Time stuff . . . lumbers on and on and on and on and
on and on and on, and, as best I can tell, the only point to it is to
lumber on and on and on and on and on and on and on. I *think* I made
it through one or two, but certainly don't care enough to try to
figure it out.

(I'm also no imporessed by any list by someone who feels compelled to
introduce it by rambling on about how much we need more diversity in
authors. No, what we need is more creativity and writing skill in
authors.)
--
Terry Austin

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.
Lynn McGuire
2018-09-27 19:31:39 UTC
Reply
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Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
Post by Lynn McGuire
"The 10 Best Completed SF and Fantasy Series (According to Me)"
by Drew McCaffrey
https://www.tor.com/2018/09/25/the-10-best-completed-sf-and-fanta
sy-series-according-to-me/
Wow, I have only read two of these, the Harry Potter and the
Ender series.
You'ven ever read Lord of the Ring?
I haven't even hear of half of them.
I have read Harry Potter and the Black Company stuff (though I don't
rememvber much of the latter; it's been a *long* time.)
As for the Gap series, yeah, I read the first book, and . . . never
again. I find no entertainment value in the books where the most
sympathetic character is the mass murdering, psychotic, sadistic
space pirate with no redeeming qualities whatsoever.
And the Wheel of Time stuff . . . lumbers on and on and on and on and
on and on and on, and, as best I can tell, the only point to it is to
lumber on and on and on and on and on and on and on. I *think* I made
it through one or two, but certainly don't care enough to try to
figure it out.
(I'm also no imporessed by any list by someone who feels compelled to
introduce it by rambling on about how much we need more diversity in
authors. No, what we need is more creativity and writing skill in
authors.)
Nope, I read _The Hobbit_. And then bounced off _The Lord Of The Rings_.

Lynn
Alan Baker
2018-09-27 19:46:48 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
Post by Lynn McGuire
"The 10 Best Completed SF and Fantasy Series (According to Me)"
by Drew McCaffrey
https://www.tor.com/2018/09/25/the-10-best-completed-sf-and-fanta
sy-series-according-to-me/
Wow, I have only read two of these, the Harry Potter and the
Ender series.
You'ven ever read Lord of the Ring?
I haven't even hear of half of them.
I have read Harry Potter and the Black Company stuff (though I don't
rememvber much of the latter; it's been a *long* time.)
As for the Gap series, yeah, I read the first book, and . . . never
again. I find no entertainment value in the books where the most
sympathetic character is the mass murdering, psychotic, sadistic
space pirate with no redeeming qualities whatsoever.
And the Wheel of Time stuff . . . lumbers on and on and on and on and
on and on and on, and, as best I can tell, the only point to it is to
lumber on and on and on and on and on and on and on. I *think* I made
it through one or two, but certainly don't care enough to try to
figure it out.
(I'm also no imporessed by any list by someone who feels compelled to
introduce it by rambling on about how much we need more diversity in
authors. No, what we need is more creativity and writing skill in
authors.)
Nope, I read _The Hobbit_.  And then bounced off _The Lord Of The Rings_.
Lynn
You never even started what is perhaps THE seminal work of the fantasy
genre?
Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
2018-09-27 20:15:36 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Alan Baker
Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
Post by Lynn McGuire
"The 10 Best Completed SF and Fantasy Series (According to
Me)" by Drew McCaffrey
https://www.tor.com/2018/09/25/the-10-best-completed-sf-and-fa
nta sy-series-according-to-me/
Wow, I have only read two of these, the Harry Potter and the Ender series.
You'ven ever read Lord of the Ring?
I haven't even hear of half of them.
I have read Harry Potter and the Black Company stuff (though I
don't rememvber much of the latter; it's been a *long* time.)
As for the Gap series, yeah, I read the first book, and . . .
never again. I find no entertainment value in the books where
the most sympathetic character is the mass murdering,
psychotic, sadistic space pirate with no redeeming qualities
whatsoever.
And the Wheel of Time stuff . . . lumbers on and on and on and
on and on and on and on, and, as best I can tell, the only
point to it is to lumber on and on and on and on and on and on
and on. I *think* I made it through one or two, but certainly
don't care enough to try to figure it out.
(I'm also no imporessed by any list by someone who feels
compelled to introduce it by rambling on about how much we
need more diversity in authors. No, what we need is more
creativity and writing skill in authors.)
Nope, I read _The Hobbit_.  And then bounced off _The Lord Of
The Rings_.
Lynn
You never even started what is perhaps THE seminal work of the
fantasy genre?
"Bounced off of" usually means "started, but didn't get very far."

So I'd guess that yes, he did start it. (And even if he didn't,
that much means you're both idiots.)
--
Terry Austin

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.
Alan Baker
2018-09-27 20:16:27 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
Post by Alan Baker
Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
Post by Lynn McGuire
"The 10 Best Completed SF and Fantasy Series (According to
Me)" by Drew McCaffrey
https://www.tor.com/2018/09/25/the-10-best-completed-sf-and-fa
nta sy-series-according-to-me/
Wow, I have only read two of these, the Harry Potter and the Ender series.
You'ven ever read Lord of the Ring?
I haven't even hear of half of them.
I have read Harry Potter and the Black Company stuff (though I
don't rememvber much of the latter; it's been a *long* time.)
As for the Gap series, yeah, I read the first book, and . . .
never again. I find no entertainment value in the books where
the most sympathetic character is the mass murdering,
psychotic, sadistic space pirate with no redeeming qualities
whatsoever.
And the Wheel of Time stuff . . . lumbers on and on and on and
on and on and on and on, and, as best I can tell, the only
point to it is to lumber on and on and on and on and on and on
and on. I *think* I made it through one or two, but certainly
don't care enough to try to figure it out.
(I'm also no imporessed by any list by someone who feels
compelled to introduce it by rambling on about how much we
need more diversity in authors. No, what we need is more
creativity and writing skill in authors.)
Nope, I read _The Hobbit_.  And then bounced off _The Lord Of
The Rings_.
Lynn
You never even started what is perhaps THE seminal work of the
fantasy genre?
"Bounced off of" usually means "started, but didn't get very far."
So I'd guess that yes, he did start it. (And even if he didn't,
that much means you're both idiots.)
How very civil for you, Terry.
Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
2018-09-27 21:54:55 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Alan Baker
Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
Post by Alan Baker
On 9/27/2018 1:10 PM, Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
Post by Lynn McGuire
"The 10 Best Completed SF and Fantasy Series (According to
Me)" by Drew McCaffrey
https://www.tor.com/2018/09/25/the-10-best-completed-sf-and-
fa nta sy-series-according-to-me/
Wow, I have only read two of these, the Harry Potter and
the Ender series.
You'ven ever read Lord of the Ring?
I haven't even hear of half of them.
I have read Harry Potter and the Black Company stuff (though
I don't rememvber much of the latter; it's been a *long*
time.)
As for the Gap series, yeah, I read the first book, and . .
. never again. I find no entertainment value in the books
where the most sympathetic character is the mass murdering,
psychotic, sadistic space pirate with no redeeming qualities
whatsoever.
And the Wheel of Time stuff . . . lumbers on and on and on
and on and on and on and on, and, as best I can tell, the
only point to it is to lumber on and on and on and on and on
and on and on. I *think* I made it through one or two, but
certainly don't care enough to try to figure it out.
(I'm also no imporessed by any list by someone who feels
compelled to introduce it by rambling on about how much we
need more diversity in authors. No, what we need is more
creativity and writing skill in authors.)
Nope, I read _The Hobbit_.  And then bounced off _The Lord
Of The Rings_.
Lynn
You never even started what is perhaps THE seminal work of the
fantasy genre?
"Bounced off of" usually means "started, but didn't get very
far."
So I'd guess that yes, he did start it. (And even if he didn't,
that much means you're both idiots.)
How very civil for you, Terry.
I note that you do not dispute anything I said, however.
--
Terry Austin

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.
Alan Baker
2018-09-29 00:10:19 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
Post by Alan Baker
Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
Post by Alan Baker
On 9/27/2018 1:10 PM, Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
Post by Lynn McGuire
"The 10 Best Completed SF and Fantasy Series (According to
Me)" by Drew McCaffrey
https://www.tor.com/2018/09/25/the-10-best-completed-sf-and-
fa nta sy-series-according-to-me/
Wow, I have only read two of these, the Harry Potter and
the Ender series.
You'ven ever read Lord of the Ring?
I haven't even hear of half of them.
I have read Harry Potter and the Black Company stuff (though
I don't rememvber much of the latter; it's been a *long*
time.)
As for the Gap series, yeah, I read the first book, and . .
. never again. I find no entertainment value in the books
where the most sympathetic character is the mass murdering,
psychotic, sadistic space pirate with no redeeming qualities
whatsoever.
And the Wheel of Time stuff . . . lumbers on and on and on
and on and on and on and on, and, as best I can tell, the
only point to it is to lumber on and on and on and on and on
and on and on. I *think* I made it through one or two, but
certainly don't care enough to try to figure it out.
(I'm also no imporessed by any list by someone who feels
compelled to introduce it by rambling on about how much we
need more diversity in authors. No, what we need is more
creativity and writing skill in authors.)
Nope, I read _The Hobbit_.  And then bounced off _The Lord
Of The Rings_.
Lynn
You never even started what is perhaps THE seminal work of the
fantasy genre?
"Bounced off of" usually means "started, but didn't get very
far."
So I'd guess that yes, he did start it. (And even if he didn't,
that much means you're both idiots.)
How very civil for you, Terry.
I note that you do not dispute anything I said, however.
I should run back through all the posts were you fail to dispute what I
said (yes: snipping what I said without rebutting it counts).

:-)
Lynn McGuire
2018-09-28 05:12:18 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Alan Baker
Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
Post by Alan Baker
Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
Post by Lynn McGuire
"The 10 Best Completed SF and Fantasy Series (According to
Me)" by Drew McCaffrey
https://www.tor.com/2018/09/25/the-10-best-completed-sf-and-fa
nta sy-series-according-to-me/
Wow, I have only read two of these, the Harry Potter and the Ender series.
You'ven ever read Lord of the Ring?
I haven't even hear of half of them.
I have read Harry Potter and the Black Company stuff (though I
don't rememvber much of the latter; it's been a *long* time.)
As for the Gap series, yeah, I read the first book, and . . .
never again. I find no entertainment value in the books where
the most sympathetic character is the mass murdering,
psychotic, sadistic space pirate with no redeeming qualities
whatsoever.
And the Wheel of Time stuff . . . lumbers on and on and on and
on and on and on and on, and, as best I can tell, the only
point to it is to lumber on and on and on and on and on and on
and on. I *think* I made it through one or two, but certainly
don't care enough to try to figure it out.
(I'm also no imporessed by any list by someone who feels
compelled to introduce it by rambling on about how much we
need more diversity in authors. No, what we need is more
creativity and writing skill in authors.)
Nope, I read _The Hobbit_.  And then bounced off _The Lord Of
The Rings_.
Lynn
You never even started what is perhaps THE seminal work of the
fantasy genre?
"Bounced off of" usually means "started, but didn't get very far."
So I'd guess that yes, he did start it. (And even if he didn't,
that much means you're both idiots.)
How very civil for you, Terry.
I would describe Terry as many things but civil is not one.

Lynn
Alan Baker
2018-09-28 22:59:23 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by Alan Baker
Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
Post by Alan Baker
Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
Post by Lynn McGuire
"The 10 Best Completed SF and Fantasy Series (According to
Me)" by Drew McCaffrey
https://www.tor.com/2018/09/25/the-10-best-completed-sf-and-fa
nta sy-series-according-to-me/
Wow, I have only read two of these, the Harry Potter and the Ender series.
You'ven ever read Lord of the Ring?
I haven't even hear of half of them.
I have read Harry Potter and the Black Company stuff (though I
don't rememvber much of the latter; it's been a *long* time.)
As for the Gap series, yeah, I read the first book, and . . .
never again. I find no entertainment value in the books where
the most sympathetic character is the mass murdering,
psychotic, sadistic space pirate with no redeeming qualities
whatsoever.
And the Wheel of Time stuff . . . lumbers on and on and on and
on and on and on and on, and, as best I can tell, the only
point to it is to lumber on and on and on and on and on and on
and on. I *think* I made it through one or two, but certainly
don't care enough to try to figure it out.
(I'm also no imporessed by any list by someone who feels
compelled to introduce it by rambling on about how much we
need more diversity in authors. No, what we need is more
creativity and writing skill in authors.)
Nope, I read _The Hobbit_.  And then bounced off _The Lord Of
The Rings_.
Lynn
You never even started what is perhaps THE seminal work of the
fantasy genre?
"Bounced off of" usually means "started, but didn't get very far."
So I'd guess that yes, he did start it. (And even if he didn't,
that much means you're both idiots.)
How very civil for you, Terry.
I would describe Terry as many things but civil is not one.
Lynn
Yes... ...that was sarcasm.

:-)
Lynn McGuire
2018-10-01 20:48:47 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Alan Baker
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by Alan Baker
Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
Post by Alan Baker
Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
Post by Lynn McGuire
"The 10 Best Completed SF and Fantasy Series (According to
Me)" by Drew McCaffrey
https://www.tor.com/2018/09/25/the-10-best-completed-sf-and-fa
nta sy-series-according-to-me/
Wow, I have only read two of these, the Harry Potter and the Ender series.
You'ven ever read Lord of the Ring?
I haven't even hear of half of them.
I have read Harry Potter and the Black Company stuff (though I
don't rememvber much of the latter; it's been a *long* time.)
As for the Gap series, yeah, I read the first book, and . . .
never again. I find no entertainment value in the books where
the most sympathetic character is the mass murdering,
psychotic, sadistic space pirate with no redeeming qualities
whatsoever.
And the Wheel of Time stuff . . . lumbers on and on and on and
on and on and on and on, and, as best I can tell, the only
point to it is to lumber on and on and on and on and on and on
and on. I *think* I made it through one or two, but certainly
don't care enough to try to figure it out.
(I'm also no imporessed by any list by someone who feels
compelled to introduce it by rambling on about how much we
need more diversity in authors. No, what we need is more
creativity and writing skill in authors.)
Nope, I read _The Hobbit_.  And then bounced off _The Lord Of
The Rings_.
Lynn
You never even started what is perhaps THE seminal work of the
fantasy genre?
"Bounced off of" usually means "started, but didn't get very far."
So I'd guess that yes, he did start it. (And even if he didn't,
that much means you're both idiots.)
How very civil for you, Terry.
I would describe Terry as many things but civil is not one.
Lynn
Yes... ...that was sarcasm.
:-)
And Terry preens.

Lynn
Lynn McGuire
2018-09-28 05:11:01 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
Post by Alan Baker
Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
Post by Lynn McGuire
"The 10 Best Completed SF and Fantasy Series (According to
Me)" by Drew McCaffrey
https://www.tor.com/2018/09/25/the-10-best-completed-sf-and-fa
nta sy-series-according-to-me/
Wow, I have only read two of these, the Harry Potter and the Ender series.
You'ven ever read Lord of the Ring?
I haven't even hear of half of them.
I have read Harry Potter and the Black Company stuff (though I
don't rememvber much of the latter; it's been a *long* time.)
As for the Gap series, yeah, I read the first book, and . . .
never again. I find no entertainment value in the books where
the most sympathetic character is the mass murdering,
psychotic, sadistic space pirate with no redeeming qualities
whatsoever.
And the Wheel of Time stuff . . . lumbers on and on and on and
on and on and on and on, and, as best I can tell, the only
point to it is to lumber on and on and on and on and on and on
and on. I *think* I made it through one or two, but certainly
don't care enough to try to figure it out.
(I'm also no imporessed by any list by someone who feels
compelled to introduce it by rambling on about how much we
need more diversity in authors. No, what we need is more
creativity and writing skill in authors.)
Nope, I read _The Hobbit_.  And then bounced off _The Lord Of
The Rings_.
Lynn
You never even started what is perhaps THE seminal work of the
fantasy genre?
"Bounced off of" usually means "started, but didn't get very far."
So I'd guess that yes, he did start it. (And even if he didn't,
that much means you're both idiots.)
Yes, I have tried it at least twice. Get about 5o to 100 pages in and
just quit. I don't even have my copies anymore.

Lynn
David Duffy
2018-09-29 22:42:26 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Lynn McGuire
Yes, I have tried it at least twice. Get about 5o to 100 pages in and
just quit. I don't even have my copies anymore.
As with many series, reading 2-3-1 is the way to go
Ted Nolan <tednolan>
2018-09-29 23:18:02 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by David Duffy
Post by Lynn McGuire
Yes, I have tried it at least twice. Get about 5o to 100 pages in and
just quit. I don't even have my copies anymore.
As with many series, reading 2-3-1 is the way to go
I remember starting one series, and it was great. An in-media-res beginning
that was "bam!" right into the action. There was enough data to figure
out the characters and what they were trying to do, but nothing that hit
you over the head with it. It was a very satisfying introduction.

And then I noticed it was book 2.

Maybe more writers should start a series with book 2.
--
------
columbiaclosings.com
What's not in Columbia anymore..
Dorothy J Heydt
2018-09-29 23:30:36 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Post by David Duffy
Post by Lynn McGuire
Yes, I have tried it at least twice. Get about 5o to 100 pages in and
just quit. I don't even have my copies anymore.
As with many series, reading 2-3-1 is the way to go
I remember starting one series, and it was great. An in-media-res beginning
that was "bam!" right into the action. There was enough data to figure
out the characters and what they were trying to do, but nothing that hit
you over the head with it. It was a very satisfying introduction.
And then I noticed it was book 2.
Maybe more writers should start a series with book 2.
Depends on the writer, the subject matter, the characters, the
plot, and everything else about the story.

Granted that Tolkien took a while to get started. And that
having started, he dithered a lot. But we should all be so tardy
and erratic.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/
Default User
2018-09-30 05:07:24 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
I remember starting one series, and it was great. An in-media-res
beginning that was "bam!" right into the action. There was enough
data to figure out the characters and what they were trying to do,
but nothing that hit you over the head with it. It was a very
satisfying introduction.
And then I noticed it was book 2.
Maybe more writers should start a series with book 2.
I commented years ago about the novel The Shadow of the Ship, by Robert
W. Franson. This seemed very much like the second in a series, but was
not. I've thought about contacting him to ask about that.


Brian
Dorothy J Heydt
2018-09-30 05:21:37 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Default User
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
I remember starting one series, and it was great. An in-media-res
beginning that was "bam!" right into the action. There was enough
data to figure out the characters and what they were trying to do,
but nothing that hit you over the head with it. It was a very
satisfying introduction.
And then I noticed it was book 2.
Maybe more writers should start a series with book 2.
I commented years ago about the novel The Shadow of the Ship, by Robert
W. Franson. This seemed very much like the second in a series, but was
not. I've thought about contacting him to ask about that.
This kind of reminds me of the long-ongoing argument about how to
read the Lensman series, with one faction starting with
_Triplanetary_, Eddorians and all; and the other faction insists
on starting with _Galactic Patrol, and (maybe) going back to _Triplanetary_
and _First Lensman_ later, if at all. It is one of those
arguments, like where to draw the line between F and SF, that
will never reach a generally accepted solution.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/
Magewolf
2018-09-30 14:28:00 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Default User
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
I remember starting one series, and it was great. An in-media-res
beginning that was "bam!" right into the action. There was enough
data to figure out the characters and what they were trying to do,
but nothing that hit you over the head with it. It was a very
satisfying introduction.
And then I noticed it was book 2.
Maybe more writers should start a series with book 2.
I commented years ago about the novel The Shadow of the Ship, by Robert
W. Franson. This seemed very much like the second in a series, but was
not. I've thought about contacting him to ask about that.
This kind of reminds me of the long-ongoing argument about how to
read the Lensman series, with one faction starting with
_Triplanetary_, Eddorians and all; and the other faction insists
on starting with _Galactic Patrol, and (maybe) going back to _Triplanetary_
and _First Lensman_ later, if at all. It is one of those
arguments, like where to draw the line between F and SF, that
will never reach a generally accepted solution.
Triplanetary has a few nice bits but First Lensman is completely
unnecessary. So I always say start at Galactic Patrol go forward and
then read Triplanetary if you are going in cold. If you have picked up
most of the story already through osmosis over exposure to the Sci-Fi
field then going Triplanetary then Galactic Patrol and then straight on
would not be a problem.
Dorothy J Heydt
2018-09-30 14:46:33 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Magewolf
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Default User
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
I remember starting one series, and it was great. An in-media-res
beginning that was "bam!" right into the action. There was enough
data to figure out the characters and what they were trying to do,
but nothing that hit you over the head with it. It was a very
satisfying introduction.
And then I noticed it was book 2.
Maybe more writers should start a series with book 2.
I commented years ago about the novel The Shadow of the Ship, by Robert
W. Franson. This seemed very much like the second in a series, but was
not. I've thought about contacting him to ask about that.
This kind of reminds me of the long-ongoing argument about how to
read the Lensman series, with one faction starting with
_Triplanetary_, Eddorians and all; and the other faction insists
on starting with _Galactic Patrol, and (maybe) going back to _Triplanetary_
and _First Lensman_ later, if at all. It is one of those
arguments, like where to draw the line between F and SF, that
will never reach a generally accepted solution.
Triplanetary has a few nice bits but First Lensman is completely
unnecessary. So I always say start at Galactic Patrol go forward and
then read Triplanetary if you are going in cold. If you have picked up
most of the story already through osmosis over exposure to the Sci-Fi
field then going Triplanetary then Galactic Patrol and then straight on
would not be a problem.
As I said, it is one of those arguments that will never reach a
conclusion. I always begin with Triplanetary. I *like* that
scene where the Eddorian has picked himself out a little
planetoid to build a fortress on, and the baby Arisian wanders by
and does not understand his threats in the slightest.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/
The Last Doctor
2018-09-30 16:52:15 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Magewolf
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Default User
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
I remember starting one series, and it was great. An in-media-res
beginning that was "bam!" right into the action. There was enough
data to figure out the characters and what they were trying to do,
but nothing that hit you over the head with it. It was a very
satisfying introduction.
And then I noticed it was book 2.
Maybe more writers should start a series with book 2.
I commented years ago about the novel The Shadow of the Ship, by Robert
W. Franson. This seemed very much like the second in a series, but was
not. I've thought about contacting him to ask about that.
This kind of reminds me of the long-ongoing argument about how to
read the Lensman series, with one faction starting with
_Triplanetary_, Eddorians and all; and the other faction insists
on starting with _Galactic Patrol, and (maybe) going back to _Triplanetary_
and _First Lensman_ later, if at all. It is one of those
arguments, like where to draw the line between F and SF, that
will never reach a generally accepted solution.
Triplanetary has a few nice bits but First Lensman is completely
unnecessary. So I always say start at Galactic Patrol go forward and
then read Triplanetary if you are going in cold. If you have picked up
most of the story already through osmosis over exposure to the Sci-Fi
field then going Triplanetary then Galactic Patrol and then straight on
would not be a problem.
As I said, it is one of those arguments that will never reach a
conclusion. I always begin with Triplanetary. I *like* that
scene where the Eddorian has picked himself out a little
planetoid to build a fortress on, and the baby Arisian wanders by
and does not understand his threats in the slightest.
I wouldn’t advise a new reader to start with Gray Lensman. The writing is
very “thirties pulp” and I’ve found younger people tend to bounce off it
hard. The more Golden Age vine of Triplanetary and First Lensman seems much
more palatable and, if they like those, they can then more easily look past
the quirks of Gray Lensman to enjoy the pure story for what it is.
--
There are some corners of the universe which have bred the most terrible
things. Things which act against everything we believe in. They must be
fought.
Dorothy J Heydt
2018-09-30 17:01:00 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Magewolf
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Default User
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
I remember starting one series, and it was great. An in-media-res
beginning that was "bam!" right into the action. There was enough
data to figure out the characters and what they were trying to do,
but nothing that hit you over the head with it. It was a very
satisfying introduction.
And then I noticed it was book 2.
Maybe more writers should start a series with book 2.
I commented years ago about the novel The Shadow of the Ship, by Robert
W. Franson. This seemed very much like the second in a series, but was
not. I've thought about contacting him to ask about that.
This kind of reminds me of the long-ongoing argument about how to
read the Lensman series, with one faction starting with
_Triplanetary_, Eddorians and all; and the other faction insists
on starting with _Galactic Patrol, and (maybe) going back to _Triplanetary_
and _First Lensman_ later, if at all. It is one of those
arguments, like where to draw the line between F and SF, that
will never reach a generally accepted solution.
Triplanetary has a few nice bits but First Lensman is completely
unnecessary. So I always say start at Galactic Patrol go forward and
then read Triplanetary if you are going in cold. If you have picked up
most of the story already through osmosis over exposure to the Sci-Fi
field then going Triplanetary then Galactic Patrol and then straight on
would not be a problem.
As I said, it is one of those arguments that will never reach a
conclusion. I always begin with Triplanetary. I *like* that
scene where the Eddorian has picked himself out a little
planetoid to build a fortress on, and the baby Arisian wanders by
and does not understand his threats in the slightest.
I wouldn’t advise a new reader to start with Gray Lensman. The writing is
very “thirties pulp” and I’ve found younger people tend to bounce off it
hard. The more Golden Age vine of Triplanetary and First Lensman seems much
more palatable and, if they like those, they can then more easily look past
the quirks of Gray Lensman to enjoy the pure story for what it is.
Yeah; pulp is an acquired taste most easily acquired in adolescence --
the age bracket for which it was written. (I include those
adolescents who have passed their fortieth birthday; we all know
some of those.)

I was in my mid-twenties when the series was reprinted and I
could read it; and yes, I recognized the pulp style. Including
the supposedly futuristic slang. But the *story* is good.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/
Ted Nolan <tednolan>
2018-09-30 15:40:25 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Default User
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
I remember starting one series, and it was great. An in-media-res
beginning that was "bam!" right into the action. There was enough
data to figure out the characters and what they were trying to do,
but nothing that hit you over the head with it. It was a very
satisfying introduction.
And then I noticed it was book 2.
Maybe more writers should start a series with book 2.
I commented years ago about the novel The Shadow of the Ship, by Robert
W. Franson. This seemed very much like the second in a series, but was
not. I've thought about contacting him to ask about that.
This kind of reminds me of the long-ongoing argument about how to
read the Lensman series, with one faction starting with
_Triplanetary_, Eddorians and all; and the other faction insists
on starting with _Galactic Patrol, and (maybe) going back to _Triplanetary_
and _First Lensman_ later, if at all. It is one of those
arguments, like where to draw the line between F and SF, that
will never reach a generally accepted solution.
Similarly "Star Wars" & "Machete Order".
--
------
columbiaclosings.com
What's not in Columbia anymore..
Joe Bernstein
2018-10-01 16:58:10 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
This kind of reminds me of the long-ongoing argument about how to
read the Lensman series, with one faction starting with
_Triplanetary_, Eddorians and all; and the other faction insists
on starting with _Galactic Patrol, and (maybe) going back to _Triplanetary_
and _First Lensman_ later, if at all. It is one of those
arguments, like where to draw the line between F and SF, that
will never reach a generally accepted solution.
All the magazine versions are at the Internet Archive, with the
exception of one of the Vortex stories, if you even count those. I
can't quite believe that can last, but the Archive has already been
getting away with it for, apparently, years, so who knows?

No, I don't suppose that'll actually *settle* the argument, but it
makes a third choice - starting with <Triplanetary> but without
Eddorians - much, much more viable.

Oh, and elsewhere in the thread - why on Earth would anyone start at
<Gray Lensman> ?

Joe Bernstein

<Triplanetary>

<https://archive.org/details/Amazing_Stories_v08n09_1934-01_bogof39-El_PM/>
<https://archive.org/details/Amazing_Stories_v08n10_1934-02/>
<https://archive.org/details/Amazing_Stories_v08n11_1934-03_bogof39-El_PM/>
<https://archive.org/details/AmazingStoriesVolume08Number12/>

<Galactic Patrol>

<https://archive.org/details/Astounding_v20n01_1937-09_docorlof>
<https://archive.org/details/Astounding_v20n02_1937-10_frankenscan>
<https://archive.org/details/Astounding_v20n03_1937-11>
<https://archive.org/details/Astounding_v20n04_1937-12_cape1736>
<https://archive.org/details/Astounding_v20n05_1938-01_cape1736>
<https://archive.org/details/Astounding_v20n06_1938-02_coverless>

<Gray Lensman>

<https://archive.org/details/Astounding_v24n02_1939-10_JNemec-cape1736>
<https://archive.org/details/Astounding_v24n03_1939-11_dtsg0318-LennyS>
<https://archive.org/details/Astounding_v24n04_1939-12>
<https://archive.org/details/Astounding_v24n05_1940-01_dtsg0318>

"The Vortex Blaster"

<https://archive.org/details/Comet_v01n05_1941-07>

<Second Stage Lensman>

<https://archive.org/details/Astounding_v28n03_1941-11_cape1736>
<https://archive.org/details/Astounding_v28n04_1941-12_Gorgon776>
<https://archive.org/details/Astounding_v28n05_1942-01_cape1736>
<https://archive.org/details/Astounding_v28n06_1942-02_cape1736>

"Storm Cloud on Deka"

<https://archive.org/details/Astonishing_Stories_v03n04_1942-06>

"The Vortex Blaster Makes War"

<Children of the Lens>

<https://archive.org/details/Astounding_v40n03_1947-11_AK>
<https://archive.org/details/Astounding_v40n04_1947-12_AK>
<https://archive.org/details/Astounding_v40n05_1948-01_cape1736>
<https://archive.org/details/Astounding_v40n06_1948-02_cape1736>
--
Joe Bernstein <***@gmail.com>
Dorothy J Heydt
2018-10-01 18:39:46 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Joe Bernstein
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
This kind of reminds me of the long-ongoing argument about how to
read the Lensman series, with one faction starting with
_Triplanetary_, Eddorians and all; and the other faction insists
on starting with _Galactic Patrol, and (maybe) going back to _Triplanetary_
and _First Lensman_ later, if at all. It is one of those
arguments, like where to draw the line between F and SF, that
will never reach a generally accepted solution.
All the magazine versions are at the Internet Archive, with the
exception of one of the Vortex stories, if you even count those. I
can't quite believe that can last, but the Archive has already been
getting away with it for, apparently, years, so who knows?
No, I don't suppose that'll actually *settle* the argument, but it
makes a third choice - starting with <Triplanetary> but without
Eddorians - much, much more viable.
Oh, and elsewhere in the thread - why on Earth would anyone start at
<Gray Lensman> ?
Because that was the first story published. I guess. They want
to begin with the hero as clueless newbie, and follow the
long-unfolding story, who's behind whom, along with him.

[Joe's references snipped]

There was another thread on the topic some time ago [2007,
Post by Joe Bernstein
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
I'm not saying that modern editions of Lensman don't make it difficult
to read in the proper order. I started with TRIPLANETARY myself
because I didn't know any better. But I think the series works better
in the way it was written: A revelation of epic proportions followed
by prequels that showed the backstory.
But ... the unraveling of what is behind Boskone, and what is
behind THAT, may be a slow unveiling of mystery upon mystery to
Kinnison (who in fact never learns the final truth at all), but
it needn't be a mystery to us, the students of the History of
Civlization.
It is even so, Dorothy Heydt of Tellus. More, it is a trivial
exercise for even the most moderate intellect to comprehend, should it
be so desired, the revelations experienced by those stalwart defenders
of Civilization, without ourselves being mystified. To think otherwise
would be the same as to insist that no pain or joy could be
understood, save only by experiencing it directly.
And I said:

I thank you, Sea Wasp of Arisia, for your encouraging words.
While my Visualization of the Cosmic All can never rise beyond
the novice level, given the short lifespan within which I must
develop it, I still have attained (to a limited degree) the
ability to see that History as a whole, its end and its beginning
arrayed before me like so many pages upon a scroll that has now
been fully unrolled for my perusal.

:)
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/
Michael F. Stemper
2018-10-01 20:37:21 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Joe Bernstein
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
This kind of reminds me of the long-ongoing argument about how to
read the Lensman series, with one faction starting with
_Triplanetary_, Eddorians and all; and the other faction insists
on starting with _Galactic Patrol, and (maybe) going back to _Triplanetary_
and _First Lensman_ later, if at all. It is one of those
arguments, like where to draw the line between F and SF, that
will never reach a generally accepted solution.
Oh, and elsewhere in the thread - why on Earth would anyone start at
<Gray Lensman> ?
Because that was the first story published. I guess.
It turns out that your guess is incorrect. The core four stories in the
saga of the Lens were originally published in order of internal
chronology:

1937: _Galactic Patrol_
1939: _Gray Lensman_
1941: _Second Stage Lensmen_
1947: _Children of the Lens_

<http://www.isfdb.org/cgi-bin/pe.cgi?603>
--
Michael F. Stemper
This sentence no verb.
Robert Woodward
2018-10-02 06:34:02 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Joe Bernstein
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
This kind of reminds me of the long-ongoing argument about how to
read the Lensman series, with one faction starting with
_Triplanetary_, Eddorians and all; and the other faction insists
on starting with _Galactic Patrol, and (maybe) going back to _Triplanetary_
and _First Lensman_ later, if at all. It is one of those
arguments, like where to draw the line between F and SF, that
will never reach a generally accepted solution.
All the magazine versions are at the Internet Archive, with the
exception of one of the Vortex stories, if you even count those. I
can't quite believe that can last, but the Archive has already been
getting away with it for, apparently, years, so who knows?
No, I don't suppose that'll actually *settle* the argument, but it
makes a third choice - starting with <Triplanetary> but without
Eddorians - much, much more viable.
Oh, and elsewhere in the thread - why on Earth would anyone start at
<Gray Lensman> ?
IIRC, I hadn't posted on this thread before, but I started the Lensman
series with _Gray Lensman_. I did so because it was on the shelf on the
library (without the other titles).
--
"We have advanced to new and surprising levels of bafflement."
Imperial Auditor Miles Vorkosigan describes progress in _Komarr_.
‹-----------------------------------------------------
Robert Woodward ***@drizzle.com
Michael F. Stemper
2018-10-02 14:22:40 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Robert Woodward
Post by Joe Bernstein
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
This kind of reminds me of the long-ongoing argument about how to
read the Lensman series, with one faction starting with
_Triplanetary_, Eddorians and all; and the other faction insists
on starting with _Galactic Patrol, and (maybe) going back to _Triplanetary_
and _First Lensman_ later, if at all. It is one of those
arguments, like where to draw the line between F and SF, that
will never reach a generally accepted solution.
No, I don't suppose that'll actually *settle* the argument, but it
makes a third choice - starting with <Triplanetary> but without
Eddorians - much, much more viable.
If one reads the magazine version, then one isn't reading anything to
do with the Lensmen, right?
Post by Robert Woodward
Post by Joe Bernstein
Oh, and elsewhere in the thread - why on Earth would anyone start at
<Gray Lensman> ?
IIRC, I hadn't posted on this thread before, but I started the Lensman
series with _Gray Lensman_. I did so because it was on the shelf on the
library (without the other titles).
I started with _Children of the Lens_, followed by _Second Stage
Lensmen_. Those were what were on the wire racks at the taxi stand.

I couldn't find anything indicating their ordering. I finally decided
"there must have been more than one generation of this 'Lens' thing
before it reached a second stage, so there would be children first."
I was right in that, but wrong in the conclusion.

After reading them both, I realized my error, so I read them again, in
their proper order, several times. A couple of years later, I found
copies of _First Lensman_ and _Galactic Patrol_. By this time, I was
able to figure out the right order. It was probably five years after
that before I finally found a copy of _Gray Lensman_.

Eventually, I got it sorted.
--
Michael F. Stemper
The name of the story is "A Sound of Thunder".
It was written by Ray Bradbury. You're welcome.
Moriarty
2018-10-02 21:49:58 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Michael F. Stemper
Post by Joe Bernstein
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
This kind of reminds me of the long-ongoing argument about how to
read the Lensman series, with one faction starting with
_Triplanetary_, Eddorians and all; and the other faction insists
on starting with _Galactic Patrol, and (maybe) going back to _Triplanetary_
and _First Lensman_ later, if at all. It is one of those
arguments, like where to draw the line between F and SF, that
will never reach a generally accepted solution.
No, I don't suppose that'll actually *settle* the argument, but it
makes a third choice - starting with <Triplanetary> but without
Eddorians - much, much more viable.
If one reads the magazine version, then one isn't reading anything to
do with the Lensmen, right?
Yes, Triplanetary started life as a standalone space adventure story with nary a Lens in sight. Smith later retro-fitted it as a Lensman novel. I re-read both of them in tandem a few years ago and prefer the non-Lens version. But I started a thread on it and got a fair bit of pushback from others who preferred the novel. YMMV as always.

Both versions are available at Project Gutenberg.

-Moriarty
Greg Goss
2018-10-01 10:18:55 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Default User
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
I remember starting one series, and it was great. An in-media-res
beginning that was "bam!" right into the action. There was enough
data to figure out the characters and what they were trying to do,
but nothing that hit you over the head with it. It was a very
satisfying introduction.
And then I noticed it was book 2.
Maybe more writers should start a series with book 2.
I commented years ago about the novel The Shadow of the Ship, by Robert
W. Franson. This seemed very much like the second in a series, but was
not. I've thought about contacting him to ask about that.
I *STILL* feel like there's a book missing before Startide Rising.
The whole thing feels like a sequel.
--
We are geeks. Resistance is voltage over current.
Dorothy J Heydt
2018-10-01 13:24:55 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Greg Goss
Post by Default User
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
I remember starting one series, and it was great. An in-media-res
beginning that was "bam!" right into the action. There was enough
data to figure out the characters and what they were trying to do,
but nothing that hit you over the head with it. It was a very
satisfying introduction.
And then I noticed it was book 2.
Maybe more writers should start a series with book 2.
I commented years ago about the novel The Shadow of the Ship, by Robert
W. Franson. This seemed very much like the second in a series, but was
not. I've thought about contacting him to ask about that.
I *STILL* feel like there's a book missing before Startide Rising.
The whole thing feels like a sequel.
Well, there's _Sundiver_, which comes before _ST_ in internal
chronology. By several centuries. _The Uplift War_ is happening
*approximately* at the same time as _ST_.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/
Harold Hill
2018-10-01 13:45:54 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Greg Goss
I *STILL* feel like there's a book missing before Startide Rising.
The whole thing feels like a sequel.
--
We are geeks. Resistance is voltage over current.
Testify. I think it is an awesome middle of a story. There just isn't a beginning or an end.

(Yes, I am aware of and have read the other material produced by Brin. I liked _Uplift War_ as a parallel story. The others, not so much.)
--
-Harold Hill
Greg Goss
2018-10-02 01:36:18 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Harold Hill
Post by Greg Goss
I *STILL* feel like there's a book missing before Startide Rising.
The whole thing feels like a sequel.
--
We are geeks. Resistance is voltage over current.
Testify. I think it is an awesome middle of a story. There just isn't a beginning or an end.
(Yes, I am aware of and have read the other material produced by Brin. I liked _Uplift War_ as a parallel story. The others, not so much.)
Readiing through to the end of the second trilogy reveals the big
mystery of the first trilogy. I eventually got through it on try #3,
as opposed to several "permanent bounces" I've mentioned on this
thread.

The END of Startide Rising was satisfying to me.
--
We are geeks. Resistance is voltage over current.
Moriarty
2018-10-02 03:24:53 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Greg Goss
Post by Harold Hill
Post by Greg Goss
I *STILL* feel like there's a book missing before Startide Rising.
The whole thing feels like a sequel.
--
We are geeks. Resistance is voltage over current.
Testify. I think it is an awesome middle of a story. There just isn't a beginning or an end.
(Yes, I am aware of and have read the other material produced by Brin. I liked _Uplift War_ as a parallel story. The others, not so much.)
Readiing through to the end of the second trilogy reveals the big
mystery of the first trilogy.
And a suckier big mystery would be hard to imagine.
Post by Greg Goss
I eventually got through it on try #3,
as opposed to several "permanent bounces" I've mentioned on this
thread.
The END of Startide Rising was satisfying to me.
Me too. They got away. The end.

-Moriarty
Greg Goss
2018-10-01 10:17:27 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Post by David Duffy
Post by Lynn McGuire
Yes, I have tried it at least twice. Get about 5o to 100 pages in and
just quit. I don't even have my copies anymore.
As with many series, reading 2-3-1 is the way to go
I remember starting one series, and it was great. An in-media-res beginning
that was "bam!" right into the action. There was enough data to figure
out the characters and what they were trying to do, but nothing that hit
you over the head with it. It was a very satisfying introduction.
And then I noticed it was book 2.
Maybe more writers should start a series with book 2.
I started Clan of the Cave Bear in book two. I think that the cover
said something like "from the author of Clan of the Cave Bear" rather
than "book two of..."

It was a nice grabby opening, if a bit confusing. It took a page or
so before it made sense.

"She was dead. What did it matter if icy needles of freezing rain
flayed her skin raw. The young woman squinted into the wind, pulling
her wolverine hood closer. Violent gusts whipped her bearskin wrap
against her legs."

I read almost all of it in a single fourteen hour stretch. I ended up
reading at a table in the pizza place when my bar buddies showed up
after closing. (remember when pizza joints were open later than the
bars?) So then I went back and read book 1, then pre-ordered a copy
of book three in hardcover (and I HATE hardcovers).
--
We are geeks. Resistance is voltage over current.
David DeLaney
2018-10-09 08:01:47 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Greg Goss
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Maybe more writers should start a series with book 2.
I started Clan of the Cave Bear in book two. I think that the cover
said something like "from the author of Clan of the Cave Bear" rather
than "book two of..."
It turns out, at least to my taste, to be possible to start Erickson's Malazan
series with book 2 (Deadhouse Gates) and go back to fill in book 1 (Gardens of
ther Moon) later, and it has the advantage that by book 2 he had worked out how
his magic system actually worked and how to explain it (book 1 was not at ALL
assisted by 'warrens' being two apparently completely different things) and
also that book 2 was not being converted from an already-existing movie script.

Dave, a The Crippled God reread is on my list
--
\/David DeLaney posting thru EarthLink - "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
my gatekeeper archives are no longer accessible :( / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.
Moriarty
2018-10-09 20:42:51 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by David DeLaney
Post by Greg Goss
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Maybe more writers should start a series with book 2.
I started Clan of the Cave Bear in book two. I think that the cover
said something like "from the author of Clan of the Cave Bear" rather
than "book two of..."
It turns out, at least to my taste, to be possible to start Erickson's Malazan
series with book 2 (Deadhouse Gates) and go back to fill in book 1 (Gardens of
ther Moon) later, and it has the advantage that by book 2 he had worked out how
his magic system actually worked and how to explain it (book 1 was not at ALL
assisted by 'warrens' being two apparently completely different things) and
also that book 2 was not being converted from an already-existing movie script.
I've previously recommended to someone that they start the Malazan series with book 5. Not only is Midnight Tides set before the first four, it's on a completely different continent with only one overlapping character. It's also, arguably, the best of the lot.

-Moriarty

Lawrence Watt-Evans
2018-10-02 16:09:26 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Post by David Duffy
Post by Lynn McGuire
Yes, I have tried it at least twice. Get about 5o to 100 pages in and
just quit. I don't even have my copies anymore.
As with many series, reading 2-3-1 is the way to go
I remember starting one series, and it was great. An in-media-res beginning
that was "bam!" right into the action. There was enough data to figure
out the characters and what they were trying to do, but nothing that hit
you over the head with it. It was a very satisfying introduction.
And then I noticed it was book 2.
Maybe more writers should start a series with book 2.
My novel _Among the Powers_ (a.k.a. _Denner's Wreck_) is second or
third in a series where I never wrote the earlier stories. Or the
sequels, for that matter -- just the one.
--
My webpage is at http://www.watt-evans.com
My latest novel is Stone Unturned: A Legend of Ethshar.
See http://www.ethshar.com/StoneUnturned.shtml
Dorothy J Heydt
2018-09-27 20:02:41 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Alan Baker
Nope, I read _The Hobbit_.  And then bounced off _The Lord Of The Rings_.
You never even started what is perhaps THE seminal work of the fantasy
genre?
My son-in-law (see upthread) says every five years or so he tries
to read it. And he gets about fifty pages in, and "he's still
describing every blade of grass." And added, "It's about time to
try again."
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/
Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
2018-09-27 21:56:29 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Alan Baker
Nope, I read _The Hobbit_.  And then bounced off _The Lord Of The Rings_.
You never even started what is perhaps THE seminal work of the
fantasy genre?
My son-in-law (see upthread) says every five years or so he
tries to read it. And he gets about fifty pages in, and "he's
still describing every blade of grass." And added, "It's about
time to try again."
Tell him to never, ever read Donaldson's Thomas Covenant stuff, then.
(Aside from the many other reasons to avoid said works.) Donaldson
makes Tolkein look positively terse.
--
Terry Austin

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.
Ted Nolan <tednolan>
2018-09-27 22:06:41 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Alan Baker
Nope, I read _The Hobbit_.  And then bounced off _The Lord Of The Rings_.
You never even started what is perhaps THE seminal work of the
fantasy genre?
My son-in-law (see upthread) says every five years or so he
tries to read it. And he gets about fifty pages in, and "he's
still describing every blade of grass." And added, "It's about
time to try again."
Tell him to never, ever read Donaldson's Thomas Covenant stuff, then.
(Aside from the many other reasons to avoid said works.) Donaldson
makes Tolkein look positively terse.
I bounced off of "Gap" hard, but really loved Covenant. (I have not read
the final trilogy yet however). I will say the Mirror duology is the
best Donaldson (despite not having a CMA like purging the giants).
--
------
columbiaclosings.com
What's not in Columbia anymore..
Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
2018-09-27 22:58:32 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Alan Baker
Nope, I read _The Hobbit_.  And then bounced off _The Lord Of The Rings_.
You never even started what is perhaps THE seminal work of the
fantasy genre?
My son-in-law (see upthread) says every five years or so he
tries to read it. And he gets about fifty pages in, and "he's
still describing every blade of grass." And added, "It's
about time to try again."
Tell him to never, ever read Donaldson's Thomas Covenant stuff,
then. (Aside from the many other reasons to avoid said works.)
Donaldson makes Tolkein look positively terse.
I bounced off of "Gap" hard, but really loved Covenant.
I wouldn't say I *liked* Covenant, but I have no regrets for having
read it. Gap, no. Not even on a bet.
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
(I have
not read the final trilogy yet however). I will say the Mirror
duology is the best Donaldson (despite not having a CMA like
purging the giants).
The only other thing of his I've read is the book of shorts, which
I like a lot.
--
Terry Austin

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.
Default User
2018-09-28 00:14:27 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
I bounced off of "Gap" hard, but really loved Covenant.
I wouldn't say I liked Covenant, but I have no regrets for having
read it. Gap, no. Not even on a bet.
I read the first six Covenant books, but then didn't start that last
set. The Gap Cycle at first sounded like it might be something I'd
like, but reading stuff online convinced me otherwise.



Brian
Titus G
2018-09-28 05:06:02 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Default User
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
I bounced off of "Gap" hard, but really loved Covenant.
I wouldn't say I liked Covenant, but I have no regrets for having
read it. Gap, no. Not even on a bet.
I read the first six Covenant books, but then didn't start that last
set. The Gap Cycle at first sounded like it might be something I'd
like, but reading stuff online convinced me otherwise.
I tried the first Covenant book earlier this year after it was
recommended here but struggled really early and managed only a couple of
chapters; as Dorothy would 'say', (but in Latin), "This Titus missed the
bus."

The LoTR, on the other hand, was a different story. I read it once,
about five decades ago, and loved it as a fantasy despite the overall
simplicity of "good" vs "evil". I do regret having watched the films as
the images from them have replaced my reading memories which is why I
have avoided the Hobbit films.
Dorothy J Heydt
2018-09-28 14:14:39 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Titus G
Post by Default User
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
I bounced off of "Gap" hard, but really loved Covenant.
I wouldn't say I liked Covenant, but I have no regrets for having
read it. Gap, no. Not even on a bet.
I read the first six Covenant books, but then didn't start that last
set. The Gap Cycle at first sounded like it might be something I'd
like, but reading stuff online convinced me otherwise.
I tried the first Covenant book earlier this year after it was
recommended here but struggled really early and managed only a couple of
chapters; as Dorothy would 'say', (but in Latin), "This Titus missed the
bus."
Hmmmmmm. How would one say "missed the bus" in equivalent Latin
parlance?

The best I can come up with offhand is _proxime accessit_, which
means "he got close," but as a noun it means "runner-up."
Post by Titus G
The LoTR, on the other hand, was a different story. I read it once,
about five decades ago, and loved it as a fantasy despite the overall
simplicity of "good" vs "evil".
Well, let me quote a bit from an essay on Eric Walker's website,
http://greatsfandf.com/AUTHORS/JRRTolkien.php :

"Because we live in the times we live in, the concept of
thoroughgoing evil seems less implausible than that of
thoroughgoing good--indeed, scarcely notable. Altogether too many
SF&F tales are inhabited by villains beside whom Snidely Whiplash
looks a piker: they gloat, they chortle, they torture and burn
and rape and [fill in the blanks], they do everything but
actually twirl their mustachios while ordering the heroine out
into the driving snow. Why? Because otherwise the writer's heroes
would have to get honest day jobs; there is no other reason.
But--and this is extremely important in Tolkien's scheme of
things--his "utterly evil" creatures are in fact no such things.
Tolkien's dark characters are, to a one, beings once capable of
great good; indeed, it is virtually a rule: the deeper in evil
they are, the higher in good they once were and could yet have
been. His characters' great enemies are not mindlessly evil: they
are fallen beings, one and all, beings seduced from the good by
temptations. The true tragedy is not the harms they do--it is
them, their falls, their lost potential."

I recommend for your perusal the entire essay, whose link is
above.

I do regret having watched the films as
Post by Titus G
the images from them have replaced my reading memories which is why I
have avoided the Hobbit films.
I quit watching the movies after _TTT_. The degree to which I
despise Peter Jackson, if expressed, would burn the pixels off
the screen.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/
David Johnston
2018-09-28 17:50:20 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Titus G
Post by Default User
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
I bounced off of "Gap" hard, but really loved Covenant.
I wouldn't say I liked Covenant, but I have no regrets for having
read it. Gap, no. Not even on a bet.
I read the first six Covenant books, but then didn't start that last
set. The Gap Cycle at first sounded like it might be something I'd
like, but reading stuff online convinced me otherwise.
I tried the first Covenant book earlier this year after it was
recommended here but struggled really early and managed only a couple of
chapters; as Dorothy would 'say', (but in Latin), "This Titus missed the
bus."
Hmmmmmm. How would one say "missed the bus" in equivalent Latin
parlance?
The best I can come up with offhand is _proxime accessit_, which
means "he got close," but as a noun it means "runner-up."
Post by Titus G
The LoTR, on the other hand, was a different story. I read it once,
about five decades ago, and loved it as a fantasy despite the overall
simplicity of "good" vs "evil".
Well, let me quote a bit from an essay on Eric Walker's website,
"Because we live in the times we live in, the concept of
thoroughgoing evil seems less implausible than that of
thoroughgoing good--indeed, scarcely notable. Altogether too many
SF&F tales are inhabited by villains beside whom Snidely Whiplash
looks a piker: they gloat, they chortle, they torture and burn
and rape and [fill in the blanks], they do everything but
actually twirl their mustachios while ordering the heroine out
into the driving snow. Why? Because otherwise the writer's heroes
would have to get honest day jobs; there is no other reason.
But--and this is extremely important in Tolkien's scheme of
things--his "utterly evil" creatures are in fact no such things.
Tolkien's dark characters are, to a one, beings once capable of
great good; indeed, it is virtually a rule: the deeper in evil
they are, the higher in good they once were and could yet have
been. His characters' great enemies are not mindlessly evil: they
are fallen beings, one and all, beings seduced from the good by
temptations. The true tragedy is not the harms they do--it is
them, their falls, their lost potential."
Being formerly capable of good does not actually mean "somewhat good
now". And there is not the slightest hint anywhere in Tolkien's work
that it is possible for Melkor, Sauron, a dragon, or even an orc to
reform. They seem to be irredeemable and any "good" they retain is only
that little bit required to make them somewhat functional in the service
of evil.
Robert Carnegie
2018-09-28 19:39:57 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by David Johnston
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Titus G
Post by Default User
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
I bounced off of "Gap" hard, but really loved Covenant.
I wouldn't say I liked Covenant, but I have no regrets for having
read it. Gap, no. Not even on a bet.
I read the first six Covenant books, but then didn't start that last
set. The Gap Cycle at first sounded like it might be something I'd
like, but reading stuff online convinced me otherwise.
I tried the first Covenant book earlier this year after it was
recommended here but struggled really early and managed only a couple of
chapters; as Dorothy would 'say', (but in Latin), "This Titus missed the
bus."
Hmmmmmm. How would one say "missed the bus" in equivalent Latin
parlance?
The best I can come up with offhand is _proxime accessit_, which
means "he got close," but as a noun it means "runner-up."
Post by Titus G
The LoTR, on the other hand, was a different story. I read it once,
about five decades ago, and loved it as a fantasy despite the overall
simplicity of "good" vs "evil".
Well, let me quote a bit from an essay on Eric Walker's website,
"Because we live in the times we live in, the concept of
thoroughgoing evil seems less implausible than that of
thoroughgoing good--indeed, scarcely notable. Altogether too many
SF&F tales are inhabited by villains beside whom Snidely Whiplash
looks a piker: they gloat, they chortle, they torture and burn
and rape and [fill in the blanks], they do everything but
actually twirl their mustachios while ordering the heroine out
into the driving snow. Why? Because otherwise the writer's heroes
would have to get honest day jobs; there is no other reason.
But--and this is extremely important in Tolkien's scheme of
things--his "utterly evil" creatures are in fact no such things.
Tolkien's dark characters are, to a one, beings once capable of
great good; indeed, it is virtually a rule: the deeper in evil
they are, the higher in good they once were and could yet have
been. His characters' great enemies are not mindlessly evil: they
are fallen beings, one and all, beings seduced from the good by
temptations. The true tragedy is not the harms they do--it is
them, their falls, their lost potential."
Being formerly capable of good does not actually mean "somewhat good
now". And there is not the slightest hint anywhere in Tolkien's work
that it is possible for Melkor, Sauron, a dragon, or even an orc to
reform. They seem to be irredeemable and any "good" they retain is only
that little bit required to make them somewhat functional in the service
of evil.
Gollum, though; and, possibly, Sharkey. However, those
wishing not to give Sharkey the chance won't be too
disappointed.
Dorothy J Heydt
2018-09-28 19:19:30 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by David Johnston
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Titus G
Post by Default User
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
I bounced off of "Gap" hard, but really loved Covenant.
I wouldn't say I liked Covenant, but I have no regrets for having
read it. Gap, no. Not even on a bet.
I read the first six Covenant books, but then didn't start that last
set. The Gap Cycle at first sounded like it might be something I'd
like, but reading stuff online convinced me otherwise.
I tried the first Covenant book earlier this year after it was
recommended here but struggled really early and managed only a couple of
chapters; as Dorothy would 'say', (but in Latin), "This Titus missed the
bus."
Hmmmmmm. How would one say "missed the bus" in equivalent Latin
parlance?
The best I can come up with offhand is _proxime accessit_, which
means "he got close," but as a noun it means "runner-up."
Post by Titus G
The LoTR, on the other hand, was a different story. I read it once,
about five decades ago, and loved it as a fantasy despite the overall
simplicity of "good" vs "evil".
Well, let me quote a bit from an essay on Eric Walker's website,
"Because we live in the times we live in, the concept of
thoroughgoing evil seems less implausible than that of
thoroughgoing good--indeed, scarcely notable. Altogether too many
SF&F tales are inhabited by villains beside whom Snidely Whiplash
looks a piker: they gloat, they chortle, they torture and burn
and rape and [fill in the blanks], they do everything but
actually twirl their mustachios while ordering the heroine out
into the driving snow. Why? Because otherwise the writer's heroes
would have to get honest day jobs; there is no other reason.
But--and this is extremely important in Tolkien's scheme of
things--his "utterly evil" creatures are in fact no such things.
Tolkien's dark characters are, to a one, beings once capable of
great good; indeed, it is virtually a rule: the deeper in evil
they are, the higher in good they once were and could yet have
been. His characters' great enemies are not mindlessly evil: they
are fallen beings, one and all, beings seduced from the good by
temptations. The true tragedy is not the harms they do--it is
them, their falls, their lost potential."
Being formerly capable of good does not actually mean "somewhat good
now". And there is not the slightest hint anywhere in Tolkien's work
that it is possible for Melkor, Sauron, a dragon, or even an orc to
reform.
s/possible/likely

Consider the scene when Gandalf invites Saruman to come down out
of Orthanc, and Saruman *nearly* agrees, and then angrily
refuses.

Remember also how Gollum, looking at Frodo asleep, nearly repents
of his wicked plan to feed him to Shelob, except that Sam shot off
his mouth at the exact wrong moment.

I'm going to quote, since it's short, a poem by Tolkien's
colleague C. S. Lewis.

Nearly they stood who fall.
Themselves, when they look back,
See always in the track
One torturing spot where all
By a possible quick swerve
Of will yet unenslaved.
By the infinitesimal twitching of a nerve.
Might have been saved.

Nearly they fell who stand.
These with cold after-fear
Look back and note how near
They grazed the Siren.s land,
Wondering to think that fate,
By threads so spidery-fine,
The choice of ways so small, the event so great,
Should thus entwine.
Post by David Johnston
They seem to be irredeemable and any "good" they retain is only
that little bit required to make them somewhat functional in the service
of evil.
Well, in that intelligence, perception, life itself are
intrinsically good, yes.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/
Robert Carnegie
2018-09-28 20:14:49 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by David Johnston
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Titus G
Post by Default User
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
I bounced off of "Gap" hard, but really loved Covenant.
I wouldn't say I liked Covenant, but I have no regrets for having
read it. Gap, no. Not even on a bet.
I read the first six Covenant books, but then didn't start that last
set. The Gap Cycle at first sounded like it might be something I'd
like, but reading stuff online convinced me otherwise.
I tried the first Covenant book earlier this year after it was
recommended here but struggled really early and managed only a couple of
chapters; as Dorothy would 'say', (but in Latin), "This Titus missed the
bus."
Hmmmmmm. How would one say "missed the bus" in equivalent Latin
parlance?
The best I can come up with offhand is _proxime accessit_, which
means "he got close," but as a noun it means "runner-up."
Post by Titus G
The LoTR, on the other hand, was a different story. I read it once,
about five decades ago, and loved it as a fantasy despite the overall
simplicity of "good" vs "evil".
Well, let me quote a bit from an essay on Eric Walker's website,
"Because we live in the times we live in, the concept of
thoroughgoing evil seems less implausible than that of
thoroughgoing good--indeed, scarcely notable. Altogether too many
SF&F tales are inhabited by villains beside whom Snidely Whiplash
looks a piker: they gloat, they chortle, they torture and burn
and rape and [fill in the blanks], they do everything but
actually twirl their mustachios while ordering the heroine out
into the driving snow. Why? Because otherwise the writer's heroes
would have to get honest day jobs; there is no other reason.
But--and this is extremely important in Tolkien's scheme of
things--his "utterly evil" creatures are in fact no such things.
Tolkien's dark characters are, to a one, beings once capable of
great good; indeed, it is virtually a rule: the deeper in evil
they are, the higher in good they once were and could yet have
been. His characters' great enemies are not mindlessly evil: they
are fallen beings, one and all, beings seduced from the good by
temptations. The true tragedy is not the harms they do--it is
them, their falls, their lost potential."
Being formerly capable of good does not actually mean "somewhat good
now". And there is not the slightest hint anywhere in Tolkien's work
that it is possible for Melkor, Sauron, a dragon, or even an orc to
reform.
s/possible/likely
Consider the scene when Gandalf invites Saruman to come down out
of Orthanc, and Saruman *nearly* agrees, and then angrily
refuses.
Remember also how Gollum, looking at Frodo asleep, nearly repents
of his wicked plan to feed him to Shelob, except that Sam shot off
his mouth at the exact wrong moment.
I'm going to quote, since it's short, a poem by Tolkien's
colleague C. S. Lewis.
Nearly they stood who fall.
Themselves, when they look back,
See always in the track
One torturing spot where all
By a possible quick swerve
Of will yet unenslaved.
By the infinitesimal twitching of a nerve.
Might have been saved.
Nearly they fell who stand.
These with cold after-fear
Look back and note how near
They grazed the Siren.s land,
Wondering to think that fate,
By threads so spidery-fine,
The choice of ways so small, the event so great,
Should thus entwine.
Post by David Johnston
They seem to be irredeemable and any "good" they retain is only
that little bit required to make them somewhat functional in the service
of evil.
Well, in that intelligence, perception, life itself are
intrinsically good, yes.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/
For that matter, a number of Tolkien's bad guys are,
in broad terms, dead. Did someone here or at Tor quote
No. 1 nazgul drawing back his riding-hood to reveal...
a crown being worn by /nothing/.

Terry Pratchett's Death - not living himself, but
a connoisseur thereof - has the traditional empty skull
head, which is a bit awkward as he keeps bees, not
as awkward I suppose as /not/ being made of unstingable
bone but they buzz around, and sometimes inside,
and you've never had a headache quite like it...
One time he has a career break - and a replacement,
who swipes that empty-crown business.
Dorothy J Heydt
2018-09-28 23:36:35 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Robert Carnegie
For that matter, a number of Tolkien's bad guys are,
in broad terms, dead. Did someone here or at Tor quote
No. 1 nazgul drawing back his riding-hood to reveal...
a crown being worn by /nothing/.
Oh, yes, they're all undead. But not exactly lacking in physical
existence ... Sauron himself has hands, one of which had a finger
cut off.

What the Nazgul are is invisible to ordinary sight. When Eowyn
confronted the Witch-king, he threw back his hood and displayed
a kingly crown and nothing visible beneath it. On the other
hand, when several Nazgul attacked Frodo at the base of
Weathertop, and he put on the Ring, he could see their faces --
cold, withered, animated/dead.
Post by Robert Carnegie
Terry Pratchett's Death - not living himself, but
a connoisseur thereof - has the traditional empty skull
head, which is a bit awkward as he keeps bees, not
as awkward I suppose as /not/ being made of unstingable
bone but they buzz around, and sometimes inside,
and you've never had a headache quite like it...
One time he has a career break - and a replacement,
who swipes that empty-crown business.
Since I am unable to read Pratchett,* I can't comment on whether
he's copying Tolkien's sfx or not.

_____
*With the exception of _The Unadulterated Cat_, which is
delightful. But then, I'm a cat person.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/
Dimensional Traveler
2018-09-29 00:10:19 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Robert Carnegie
For that matter, a number of Tolkien's bad guys are,
in broad terms, dead. Did someone here or at Tor quote
No. 1 nazgul drawing back his riding-hood to reveal...
a crown being worn by /nothing/.
Oh, yes, they're all undead. But not exactly lacking in physical
existence ... Sauron himself has hands, one of which had a finger
cut off.
What the Nazgul are is invisible to ordinary sight. When Eowyn
confronted the Witch-king, he threw back his hood and displayed
a kingly crown and nothing visible beneath it. On the other
hand, when several Nazgul attacked Frodo at the base of
Weathertop, and he put on the Ring, he could see their faces --
cold, withered, animated/dead.
Post by Robert Carnegie
Terry Pratchett's Death - not living himself, but
a connoisseur thereof - has the traditional empty skull
head, which is a bit awkward as he keeps bees, not
as awkward I suppose as /not/ being made of unstingable
bone but they buzz around, and sometimes inside,
and you've never had a headache quite like it...
One time he has a career break - and a replacement,
who swipes that empty-crown business.
Since I am unable to read Pratchett,* I can't comment on whether
he's copying Tolkien's sfx or not.
_____
*With the exception of _The Unadulterated Cat_, which is
delightful. But then, I'm a cat person.
If he copied it, it was only to make a joke.
--
Inquiring minds want to know while minds with a self-preservation
instinct are running screaming.
Dorothy J Heydt
2018-09-29 02:35:36 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Dimensional Traveler
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Robert Carnegie
For that matter, a number of Tolkien's bad guys are,
in broad terms, dead. Did someone here or at Tor quote
No. 1 nazgul drawing back his riding-hood to reveal...
a crown being worn by /nothing/.
Oh, yes, they're all undead. But not exactly lacking in physical
existence ... Sauron himself has hands, one of which had a finger
cut off.
What the Nazgul are is invisible to ordinary sight. When Eowyn
confronted the Witch-king, he threw back his hood and displayed
a kingly crown and nothing visible beneath it. On the other
hand, when several Nazgul attacked Frodo at the base of
Weathertop, and he put on the Ring, he could see their faces --
cold, withered, animated/dead.
Post by Robert Carnegie
Terry Pratchett's Death - not living himself, but
a connoisseur thereof - has the traditional empty skull
head, which is a bit awkward as he keeps bees, not
as awkward I suppose as /not/ being made of unstingable
bone but they buzz around, and sometimes inside,
and you've never had a headache quite like it...
One time he has a career break - and a replacement,
who swipes that empty-crown business.
Since I am unable to read Pratchett,* I can't comment on whether
he's copying Tolkien's sfx or not.
_____
*With the exception of _The Unadulterated Cat_, which is
delightful. But then, I'm a cat person.
If he copied it, it was only to make a joke.
I believe you.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/
Robert Carnegie
2018-09-29 16:32:09 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Dimensional Traveler
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Robert Carnegie
For that matter, a number of Tolkien's bad guys are,
in broad terms, dead. Did someone here or at Tor quote
No. 1 nazgul drawing back his riding-hood to reveal...
a crown being worn by /nothing/.
Oh, yes, they're all undead. But not exactly lacking in physical
existence ... Sauron himself has hands, one of which had a finger
cut off.
What the Nazgul are is invisible to ordinary sight. When Eowyn
confronted the Witch-king, he threw back his hood and displayed
a kingly crown and nothing visible beneath it. On the other
hand, when several Nazgul attacked Frodo at the base of
Weathertop, and he put on the Ring, he could see their faces --
cold, withered, animated/dead.
Post by Robert Carnegie
Terry Pratchett's Death - not living himself, but
a connoisseur thereof - has the traditional empty skull
head, which is a bit awkward as he keeps bees, not
as awkward I suppose as /not/ being made of unstingable
bone but they buzz around, and sometimes inside,
and you've never had a headache quite like it...
One time he has a career break - and a replacement,
who swipes that empty-crown business.
Since I am unable to read Pratchett,* I can't comment on whether
he's copying Tolkien's sfx or not.
_____
*With the exception of _The Unadulterated Cat_, which is
delightful. But then, I'm a cat person.
If he copied it, it was only to make a joke.
It's not a joke moment. It isn't annotated [*], but
Sir Terry and a lot of his audience had read LOTR.

[*] <https://www.lspace.org/books/apf/reaper-man.html>
There are some there that weren't found, I expect.
Titus G
2018-09-28 19:38:28 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Titus G
I tried the first Covenant book earlier this year after it was
recommended here but struggled really early and managed only a couple of
chapters; as Dorothy would 'say', (but in Latin), "This Titus missed the
bus."
Hmmmmmm. How would one say "missed the bus" in equivalent Latin
parlance?
De gustibus non est disputandum. :-)
Gary R. Schmidt
2018-09-29 02:55:41 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Titus G
I tried the first Covenant book earlier this year after it was
recommended here but struggled really early and managed only a couple of
chapters; as Dorothy would 'say', (but in Latin), "This Titus missed the
bus."
Hmmmmmm.  How would one say "missed the bus" in equivalent Latin
parlance?
De gustibus non est disputandum.  :-)
Omnibus departit est??? ;-)

Cheers,
Gary B-)
--
When men talk to their friends, they insult each other.
They don't really mean it.
When women talk to their friends, they compliment each other.
They don't mean it either.
Dorothy J Heydt
2018-09-29 15:26:56 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Gary R. Schmidt
Post by Titus G
I tried the first Covenant book earlier this year after it was
recommended here but struggled really early and managed only a couple of
chapters; as Dorothy would 'say', (but in Latin), "This Titus missed the
bus."
Hmmmmmm.  How would one say "missed the bus" in equivalent Latin
parlance?
De gustibus non est disputandum.  :-)
Omnibus departit est??? ;-)
No.

As you know, Bob, _omnibus_ is the ablative plural of _omnis_,
and in its sense of "for everybody" it was applied to large,
horse-drawn vehicles that carried several (maybe a dozen) people
along a predetermined route and schedule for a fee.

This drawing of one accompanies a story about one, dated 1898,
and if you look at the first couple of paragraphs, you'll see
the word "omnibus" both written out in full and abbreviated 'bus.

https://americanliterature.com/author/arthur-quiller-couch/short-story/the-omnibus
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/
J. Clarke
2018-09-28 21:50:19 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Titus G
Post by Default User
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
I bounced off of "Gap" hard, but really loved Covenant.
I wouldn't say I liked Covenant, but I have no regrets for having
read it. Gap, no. Not even on a bet.
I read the first six Covenant books, but then didn't start that last
set. The Gap Cycle at first sounded like it might be something I'd
like, but reading stuff online convinced me otherwise.
I tried the first Covenant book earlier this year after it was
recommended here but struggled really early and managed only a couple of
chapters; as Dorothy would 'say', (but in Latin), "This Titus missed the
bus."
Hmmmmmm. How would one say "missed the bus" in equivalent Latin
parlance?
The best I can come up with offhand is _proxime accessit_, which
means "he got close," but as a noun it means "runner-up."
Maybe try a different form of transport to be missed? I'm pretty sure
that the Romans didn't have buses.
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Titus G
The LoTR, on the other hand, was a different story. I read it once,
about five decades ago, and loved it as a fantasy despite the overall
simplicity of "good" vs "evil".
Well, let me quote a bit from an essay on Eric Walker's website,
"Because we live in the times we live in, the concept of
thoroughgoing evil seems less implausible than that of
thoroughgoing good--indeed, scarcely notable. Altogether too many
SF&F tales are inhabited by villains beside whom Snidely Whiplash
looks a piker: they gloat, they chortle, they torture and burn
and rape and [fill in the blanks], they do everything but
actually twirl their mustachios while ordering the heroine out
into the driving snow. Why? Because otherwise the writer's heroes
would have to get honest day jobs; there is no other reason.
But--and this is extremely important in Tolkien's scheme of
things--his "utterly evil" creatures are in fact no such things.
Tolkien's dark characters are, to a one, beings once capable of
great good; indeed, it is virtually a rule: the deeper in evil
they are, the higher in good they once were and could yet have
been. His characters' great enemies are not mindlessly evil: they
are fallen beings, one and all, beings seduced from the good by
temptations. The true tragedy is not the harms they do--it is
them, their falls, their lost potential."
I recommend for your perusal the entire essay, whose link is
above.
I do regret having watched the films as
Post by Titus G
the images from them have replaced my reading memories which is why I
have avoided the Hobbit films.
I quit watching the movies after _TTT_. The degree to which I
despise Peter Jackson, if expressed, would burn the pixels off
the screen.
Robert Carnegie
2018-09-28 22:32:30 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by J. Clarke
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Titus G
Post by Default User
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
I bounced off of "Gap" hard, but really loved Covenant.
I wouldn't say I liked Covenant, but I have no regrets for having
read it. Gap, no. Not even on a bet.
I read the first six Covenant books, but then didn't start that last
set. The Gap Cycle at first sounded like it might be something I'd
like, but reading stuff online convinced me otherwise.
I tried the first Covenant book earlier this year after it was
recommended here but struggled really early and managed only a couple of
chapters; as Dorothy would 'say', (but in Latin), "This Titus missed the
bus."
Hmmmmmm. How would one say "missed the bus" in equivalent Latin
parlance?
The best I can come up with offhand is _proxime accessit_, which
means "he got close," but as a noun it means "runner-up."
Maybe try a different form of transport to be missed? I'm pretty sure
that the Romans didn't have buses.
Yet, "Caesar sic in omnibus", I recall.

What about "a day late and a denarius short"?
Dorothy J Heydt
2018-09-28 23:38:44 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by J. Clarke
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Titus G
Post by Default User
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
I bounced off of "Gap" hard, but really loved Covenant.
I wouldn't say I liked Covenant, but I have no regrets for having
read it. Gap, no. Not even on a bet.
I read the first six Covenant books, but then didn't start that last
set. The Gap Cycle at first sounded like it might be something I'd
like, but reading stuff online convinced me otherwise.
I tried the first Covenant book earlier this year after it was
recommended here but struggled really early and managed only a couple of
chapters; as Dorothy would 'say', (but in Latin), "This Titus missed the
bus."
Hmmmmmm. How would one say "missed the bus" in equivalent Latin
parlance?
The best I can come up with offhand is _proxime accessit_, which
means "he got close," but as a noun it means "runner-up."
Maybe try a different form of transport to be missed? I'm pretty sure
that the Romans didn't have buses.
They had ox-carts and litters to carry the wealthy around, but they
weren't designed to carry large numbers of people and they didn't
operate on a schedule, AFAIK.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/
J. Clarke
2018-09-29 00:48:24 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by J. Clarke
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Titus G
Post by Default User
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
I bounced off of "Gap" hard, but really loved Covenant.
I wouldn't say I liked Covenant, but I have no regrets for having
read it. Gap, no. Not even on a bet.
I read the first six Covenant books, but then didn't start that last
set. The Gap Cycle at first sounded like it might be something I'd
like, but reading stuff online convinced me otherwise.
I tried the first Covenant book earlier this year after it was
recommended here but struggled really early and managed only a couple of
chapters; as Dorothy would 'say', (but in Latin), "This Titus missed the
bus."
Hmmmmmm. How would one say "missed the bus" in equivalent Latin
parlance?
The best I can come up with offhand is _proxime accessit_, which
means "he got close," but as a noun it means "runner-up."
Maybe try a different form of transport to be missed? I'm pretty sure
that the Romans didn't have buses.
They had ox-carts and litters to carry the wealthy around, but they
weren't designed to carry large numbers of people and they didn't
operate on a schedule, AFAIK.
I think "missed the boat" might have more potential. Google translate
though uses the wrong "miss" I believe, missing the boat as in longing
for rather than arriving too late to board.
Dorothy J Heydt
2018-09-29 02:36:37 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by J. Clarke
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by J. Clarke
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Titus G
Post by Default User
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
I bounced off of "Gap" hard, but really loved Covenant.
I wouldn't say I liked Covenant, but I have no regrets for having
read it. Gap, no. Not even on a bet.
I read the first six Covenant books, but then didn't start that last
set. The Gap Cycle at first sounded like it might be something I'd
like, but reading stuff online convinced me otherwise.
I tried the first Covenant book earlier this year after it was
recommended here but struggled really early and managed only a couple of
chapters; as Dorothy would 'say', (but in Latin), "This Titus missed the
bus."
Hmmmmmm. How would one say "missed the bus" in equivalent Latin
parlance?
The best I can come up with offhand is _proxime accessit_, which
means "he got close," but as a noun it means "runner-up."
Maybe try a different form of transport to be missed? I'm pretty sure
that the Romans didn't have buses.
They had ox-carts and litters to carry the wealthy around, but they
weren't designed to carry large numbers of people and they didn't
operate on a schedule, AFAIK.
I think "missed the boat" might have more potential. Google translate
though uses the wrong "miss" I believe, missing the boat as in longing
for rather than arriving too late to board.
Now, the Greek word for "sin" is _hamartia_, which translates as
"missing something" as in not hitting the target with your arrow.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/
David DeLaney
2018-10-09 07:47:18 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Now, the Greek word for "sin" is _hamartia_, which translates as
"missing something" as in not hitting the target with your arrow.
... curse those time-flies!

Dave, squooshed liek bug
--
\/David DeLaney posting thru EarthLink - "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
my gatekeeper archives are no longer accessible :( / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.
Greg Goss
2018-10-01 00:50:05 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by J. Clarke
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Titus G
Post by Default User
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
I bounced off of "Gap" hard, but really loved Covenant.
I wouldn't say I liked Covenant, but I have no regrets for having
read it. Gap, no. Not even on a bet.
I read the first six Covenant books, but then didn't start that last
set. The Gap Cycle at first sounded like it might be something I'd
like, but reading stuff online convinced me otherwise.
I tried the first Covenant book earlier this year after it was
recommended here but struggled really early and managed only a couple of
chapters; as Dorothy would 'say', (but in Latin), "This Titus missed the
bus."
Hmmmmmm. How would one say "missed the bus" in equivalent Latin
parlance?
The best I can come up with offhand is _proxime accessit_, which
means "he got close," but as a noun it means "runner-up."
Maybe try a different form of transport to be missed? I'm pretty sure
that the Romans didn't have buses.
They had ox-carts and litters to carry the wealthy around, but they
weren't designed to carry large numbers of people and they didn't
operate on a schedule, AFAIK.
ships
--
We are geeks. Resistance is voltage over current.
Dorothy J Heydt
2018-10-01 01:03:15 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by J. Clarke
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Titus G
Post by Default User
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
I bounced off of "Gap" hard, but really loved Covenant.
I wouldn't say I liked Covenant, but I have no regrets for having
read it. Gap, no. Not even on a bet.
I read the first six Covenant books, but then didn't start that last
set. The Gap Cycle at first sounded like it might be something I'd
like, but reading stuff online convinced me otherwise.
I tried the first Covenant book earlier this year after it was
recommended here but struggled really early and managed only a couple of
chapters; as Dorothy would 'say', (but in Latin), "This Titus missed the
bus."
Hmmmmmm. How would one say "missed the bus" in equivalent Latin
parlance?
The best I can come up with offhand is _proxime accessit_, which
means "he got close," but as a noun it means "runner-up."
Maybe try a different form of transport to be missed? I'm pretty sure
that the Romans didn't have buses.
They had ox-carts and litters to carry the wealthy around, but they
weren't designed to carry large numbers of people and they didn't
operate on a schedule, AFAIK.
ships
Yes, but ships tend not to depart every hour on the hour or
whatever bus schedules look like in your neck of the woods.
"He missed the ship" does not have the same connotation of "there
won't be another till 5:30" that "he missed the bus" does.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/
Dimensional Traveler
2018-10-01 05:47:57 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by J. Clarke
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Titus G
Post by Default User
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
I bounced off of "Gap" hard, but really loved Covenant.
I wouldn't say I liked Covenant, but I have no regrets for having
read it. Gap, no. Not even on a bet.
I read the first six Covenant books, but then didn't start that last
set. The Gap Cycle at first sounded like it might be something I'd
like, but reading stuff online convinced me otherwise.
I tried the first Covenant book earlier this year after it was
recommended here but struggled really early and managed only a couple of
chapters; as Dorothy would 'say', (but in Latin), "This Titus missed the
bus."
Hmmmmmm. How would one say "missed the bus" in equivalent Latin
parlance?
The best I can come up with offhand is _proxime accessit_, which
means "he got close," but as a noun it means "runner-up."
Maybe try a different form of transport to be missed? I'm pretty sure
that the Romans didn't have buses.
They had ox-carts and litters to carry the wealthy around, but they
weren't designed to carry large numbers of people and they didn't
operate on a schedule, AFAIK.
ships
Yes, but ships tend not to depart every hour on the hour or
whatever bus schedules look like in your neck of the woods.
"He missed the ship" does not have the same connotation of "there
won't be another till 5:30" that "he missed the bus" does.
True, its more like "there won't be another for two weeks". ;)
--
Inquiring minds want to know while minds with a self-preservation
instinct are running screaming.
Robert Carnegie
2018-10-01 08:55:03 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Dimensional Traveler
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by J. Clarke
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Titus G
Post by Default User
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
I bounced off of "Gap" hard, but really loved Covenant.
I wouldn't say I liked Covenant, but I have no regrets for having
read it. Gap, no. Not even on a bet.
I read the first six Covenant books, but then didn't start that last
set. The Gap Cycle at first sounded like it might be something I'd
like, but reading stuff online convinced me otherwise.
I tried the first Covenant book earlier this year after it was
recommended here but struggled really early and managed only a couple of
chapters; as Dorothy would 'say', (but in Latin), "This Titus missed the
bus."
Hmmmmmm. How would one say "missed the bus" in equivalent Latin
parlance?
The best I can come up with offhand is _proxime accessit_, which
means "he got close," but as a noun it means "runner-up."
Maybe try a different form of transport to be missed? I'm pretty sure
that the Romans didn't have buses.
They had ox-carts and litters to carry the wealthy around, but they
weren't designed to carry large numbers of people and they didn't
operate on a schedule, AFAIK.
ships
Yes, but ships tend not to depart every hour on the hour or
whatever bus schedules look like in your neck of the woods.
"He missed the ship" does not have the same connotation of "there
won't be another till 5:30" that "he missed the bus" does.
True, its more like "there won't be another for two weeks". ;)
My impression is that "waiting for your ship to come in"
refers to something happening never.

- Like the joke about the man who prays to win the lottery,
but hasn't bought a ticket.

"That ship has sailed" doesn't have the same sense either,
I think; isn't it about arguing over something that has
already happened?
Greg Goss
2018-10-01 10:07:33 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by Dimensional Traveler
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by J. Clarke
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Titus G
Post by Default User
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
I bounced off of "Gap" hard, but really loved Covenant.
I wouldn't say I liked Covenant, but I have no regrets for having
read it. Gap, no. Not even on a bet.
I read the first six Covenant books, but then didn't start that last
set. The Gap Cycle at first sounded like it might be something I'd
like, but reading stuff online convinced me otherwise.
I tried the first Covenant book earlier this year after it was
recommended here but struggled really early and managed only a couple of
chapters; as Dorothy would 'say', (but in Latin), "This Titus missed the
bus."
Hmmmmmm. How would one say "missed the bus" in equivalent Latin
parlance?
The best I can come up with offhand is _proxime accessit_, which
means "he got close," but as a noun it means "runner-up."
Maybe try a different form of transport to be missed? I'm pretty sure
that the Romans didn't have buses.
They had ox-carts and litters to carry the wealthy around, but they
weren't designed to carry large numbers of people and they didn't
operate on a schedule, AFAIK.
ships
Yes, but ships tend not to depart every hour on the hour or
whatever bus schedules look like in your neck of the woods.
"He missed the ship" does not have the same connotation of "there
won't be another till 5:30" that "he missed the bus" does.
True, its more like "there won't be another for two weeks". ;)
My impression is that "waiting for your ship to come in"
refers to something happening never.
Waiting for your ship is the other end - it isn't here yet. We're
talking about a ship that's been and gone.

"Standing on the dock, watching the ship sail over the horizon" is a
bigger loss than "wait another hour or two".

I think the "missed the bus" implies more of a small-town Greyhound
rather than a transit bus. You miss the twice a week bus and you're
stuck for quite a while.
Post by Robert Carnegie
- Like the joke about the man who prays to win the lottery,
but hasn't bought a ticket.
"That ship has sailed" doesn't have the same sense either,
I think; isn't it about arguing over something that has
already happened?
--
We are geeks. Resistance is voltage over current.
Kevrob
2018-10-02 23:15:41 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Robert Carnegie
"That ship has sailed" doesn't have the same sense either,
I think; isn't it about arguing over something that has
already happened?
There's "he missed the tide." Your ship has to wait for the
next favorable tide to get out of the harbor.

Tides are even on a schedule, and though they are more reliable
than ones for onmibuses and trains, they "slide" a bit each day.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tide_table

Kevin R
J. Clarke
2018-10-02 01:26:24 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On Mon, 1 Oct 2018 01:55:03 -0700 (PDT), Robert Carnegie
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by Dimensional Traveler
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by J. Clarke
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Titus G
Post by Default User
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
I bounced off of "Gap" hard, but really loved Covenant.
I wouldn't say I liked Covenant, but I have no regrets for having
read it. Gap, no. Not even on a bet.
I read the first six Covenant books, but then didn't start that last
set. The Gap Cycle at first sounded like it might be something I'd
like, but reading stuff online convinced me otherwise.
I tried the first Covenant book earlier this year after it was
recommended here but struggled really early and managed only a couple of
chapters; as Dorothy would 'say', (but in Latin), "This Titus missed the
bus."
Hmmmmmm. How would one say "missed the bus" in equivalent Latin
parlance?
The best I can come up with offhand is _proxime accessit_, which
means "he got close," but as a noun it means "runner-up."
Maybe try a different form of transport to be missed? I'm pretty sure
that the Romans didn't have buses.
They had ox-carts and litters to carry the wealthy around, but they
weren't designed to carry large numbers of people and they didn't
operate on a schedule, AFAIK.
ships
Yes, but ships tend not to depart every hour on the hour or
whatever bus schedules look like in your neck of the woods.
"He missed the ship" does not have the same connotation of "there
won't be another till 5:30" that "he missed the bus" does.
True, its more like "there won't be another for two weeks". ;)
My impression is that "waiting for your ship to come in"
refers to something happening never.
- Like the joke about the man who prays to win the lottery,
but hasn't bought a ticket.
"That ship has sailed" doesn't have the same sense either,
I think; isn't it about arguing over something that has
already happened?
You're conflating several different expressions.

"Missed the boat" means that your ride (literal or figurative) left
without you. If you're in the Navy and that happens to you you're in
deep doodoo.

"Waiting for your ship to come in" is aspirational, the hope that some
life-changing event will occur.

"That ship has sailed" means that the event has already occurred and
nothing can be changed. An emphatic version is "That ship has sailed,
hit the iceberg, and sunk".
Titus G
2018-10-02 03:18:23 UTC
Reply
Permalink
On 02/10/18 14:26, J. Clarke wrote:

snip
Post by J. Clarke
Post by Titus G
I tried the first Covenant book earlier this year
after it was recommended here but struggled really
early and managed only a couple of chapters; as
Dorothy would 'say', (but in Latin), "This Titus
missed the bus."
snip
Post by J. Clarke
"Missed the boat" means that your ride (literal or figurative) left
without you. If you're in the Navy and that happens to you you're
in deep doodoo.
Yes. That is what I originally meant.
Mike Van Pelt
2018-09-28 23:14:16 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Titus G
The LoTR, on the other hand, was a different story. I read it once,
about five decades ago, and loved it as a fantasy despite the overall
simplicity of "good" vs "evil". I do regret having watched the films as
the images from them have replaced my reading memories which is why I
have avoided the Hobbit films.
I like the LotR movies... On my "to do" list is to re-read
the books again, then watch the extended editions. My only
real annoyance with them was that Jackson ruined the
character of Faramir. Which is pretty bad, but otherwise...

The Hobbit movies on the other hand... Bleah. Feh.
I was hard to belive the person behind the LotR movies
had perpetrated this atrocity.

It looked like Jackson wanted to make The Hobbit a true
prequel to LotR, expanding one short book into a LotR type
epic, but he clearly had no idea how to do so.
--
Mike Van Pelt | "I don't advise it unless you're nuts."
mvp at calweb.com | -- Ray Wilkinson, after riding out Hurricane
KE6BVH | Ike on Surfside Beach in Galveston
Dorothy J Heydt
2018-09-27 23:19:04 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Alan Baker
Nope, I read _The Hobbit_.  And then bounced off _The Lord Of The Rings_.
You never even started what is perhaps THE seminal work of the
fantasy genre?
My son-in-law (see upthread) says every five years or so he
tries to read it. And he gets about fifty pages in, and "he's
still describing every blade of grass." And added, "It's about
time to try again."
Tell him to never, ever read Donaldson's Thomas Covenant stuff, then.
(Aside from the many other reasons to avoid said works.) Donaldson
makes Tolkein look positively terse.
I bounced off of "Gap" hard, but really loved Covenant. (I have not read
the final trilogy yet however). I will say the Mirror duology is the
best Donaldson (despite not having a CMA like purging the giants).
It has a very bad baddie who finally Gets What Is Coming To Him.
Loud cheers.

On the other hand, I don't have a copy of those books any more
and I don't suppose I'll ever read them again.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/
David DeLaney
2018-09-28 09:43:25 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
I bounced off of "Gap" hard, but really loved Covenant. (I have not read
the final trilogy yet however).
I have - there's four books in it, by the way.

I haven't BOUGHT it yet, because 15 years later it's STILL in trade paperback,
and one gives up after a while, one does.

Dave, and my "a while" is getting shorter as I age
--
\/David DeLaney posting thru EarthLink - "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
my gatekeeper archives are no longer accessible :( / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.
Dorothy J Heydt
2018-09-27 23:17:57 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Alan Baker
Nope, I read _The Hobbit_.  And then bounced off _The Lord Of The Rings_.
You never even started what is perhaps THE seminal work of the
fantasy genre?
My son-in-law (see upthread) says every five years or so he
tries to read it. And he gets about fifty pages in, and "he's
still describing every blade of grass." And added, "It's about
time to try again."
Tell him to never, ever read Donaldson's Thomas Covenant stuff, then.
(Aside from the many other reasons to avoid said works.) Donaldson
makes Tolkein look positively terse.
I'll pass that along. OTOH he's a goth; he might *like*
Donaldson.

The only Donaldson I ever read (or ever will) is the duology
about the mirrors.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/
Lynn McGuire
2018-10-01 20:44:38 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Alan Baker
Nope, I read _The Hobbit_.  And then bounced off _The Lord Of The Rings_.
You never even started what is perhaps THE seminal work of the
fantasy genre?
My son-in-law (see upthread) says every five years or so he
tries to read it. And he gets about fifty pages in, and "he's
still describing every blade of grass." And added, "It's about
time to try again."
Tell him to never, ever read Donaldson's Thomas Covenant stuff, then.
(Aside from the many other reasons to avoid said works.) Donaldson
makes Tolkein look positively terse.
I liked the first Thomas Covenant series. It was kinda _A Princess of
Mars_ meets _Elric of Melniboné_. I have not tried the new Thomas
Covenant series though as I suspected it is just more of the same.

Lynn
Joy Beeson
2018-09-30 01:55:16 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
My son-in-law (see upthread) says every five years or so he tries
to read it. And he gets about fifty pages in, and "he's still
describing every blade of grass." And added, "It's about time to
try again."
Perhaps he should start in the middle.

Or at least on page fifty-one.
--
Joy Beeson
joy beeson at comcast dot net
http://wlweather.net/PAGEJOY/

---
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
https://www.avg.com
Dorothy J Heydt
2018-09-30 04:59:25 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Joy Beeson
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
My son-in-law (see upthread) says every five years or so he tries
to read it. And he gets about fifty pages in, and "he's still
describing every blade of grass." And added, "It's about time to
try again."
Perhaps he should start in the middle.
Or at least on page fifty-one.
Hm. In the old Ballantine pb* page fifty-one has only got as far
as Gandalf's fireworks at the Party.

But the text itself (after the introductions) starts on page
forty-three, so another fifty-one pages would get to page
ninety-one, in the middle of Gandalf's tale of Gollum.

I dunno. Just as there are people who can appreciate rock, or
football, and others who can't, there are some who can't
appreciate what some reviewer called "an epic written for people
who were used to novels."

/shrug

_____
*Damned if I'm going to let him wander off with my hardback
editions, one volume or another of which I take off the shelves
every couple of days, to quote bits on the LotRO forums. "It's
in the books" wins almost every argument.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/
Dorothy J Heydt
2018-09-27 20:01:10 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Lynn McGuire
Nope, I read _The Hobbit_. And then bounced off _The Lord Of The Rings_.
My son-in-law told me the same thing last night. (This was at
the end of a long discourse on the craft of constructing
languages.) He added, "I've seen the movies -- but those were
the movies." :)

Tolkien himself said of his work,

"The Lord of the Rings
Is one of those things.
If you like it, you do;
If you don't you boo."
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/
D B Davis
2018-09-28 15:30:10 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
Post by Lynn McGuire
"The 10 Best Completed SF and Fantasy Series (According to Me)"
by Drew McCaffrey
https://www.tor.com/2018/09/25/the-10-best-completed-sf-and-fanta
sy-series-according-to-me/
Wow, I have only read two of these, the Harry Potter and the
Ender series.
You'ven ever read Lord of the Ring?
I haven't even hear of half of them.
I have read Harry Potter and the Black Company stuff (though I don't
rememvber much of the latter; it's been a *long* time.)
As for the Gap series, yeah, I read the first book, and . . . never
again. I find no entertainment value in the books where the most
sympathetic character is the mass murdering, psychotic, sadistic
space pirate with no redeeming qualities whatsoever.
And the Wheel of Time stuff . . . lumbers on and on and on and on and
on and on and on, and, as best I can tell, the only point to it is to
lumber on and on and on and on and on and on and on. I *think* I made
it through one or two, but certainly don't care enough to try to
figure it out.
(I'm also no imporessed by any list by someone who feels compelled to
introduce it by rambling on about how much we need more diversity in
authors. No, what we need is more creativity and writing skill in
authors.)
Fortunately my eyes automatically skipped the intro and immediately
sought the topmost series in the list.
Although the phrase "virtue signal" was coined by a pundit whose
politics would probably leave me with indigestion, it's descriptive.
Foremost among the virtue signal's attributes is that it appears
virtuous. If nothing else, it usually cows a group of people enough to
discourage back talk.
Virtue signals are also cheap. The signaler just pays lip service to
the cause célèbre of the day and leaves the grunt work of any meaningful
change to others.
Virtue signals are often stupid. Proclaiming that we need more
diversity when we need better stories is stupider than saying that
Rival snow maker machines need to come in more colors when they actually
need to shave ice better.
German voices probably lack the requisite diversity that our virtue
signaler, Drew, craves. Be that as it may, is there any well known SF
series with a corpus larger than _Perry Rhodan_?



Thank you,
--
Don
Dorothy J Heydt
2018-09-28 16:06:10 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by D B Davis
Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
Post by Lynn McGuire
"The 10 Best Completed SF and Fantasy Series (According to Me)"
by Drew McCaffrey
https://www.tor.com/2018/09/25/the-10-best-completed-sf-and-fanta
sy-series-according-to-me/
Wow, I have only read two of these, the Harry Potter and the
Ender series.
You'ven ever read Lord of the Ring?
I haven't even hear of half of them.
I have read Harry Potter and the Black Company stuff (though I don't
rememvber much of the latter; it's been a *long* time.)
As for the Gap series, yeah, I read the first book, and . . . never
again. I find no entertainment value in the books where the most
sympathetic character is the mass murdering, psychotic, sadistic
space pirate with no redeeming qualities whatsoever.
And the Wheel of Time stuff . . . lumbers on and on and on and on and
on and on and on, and, as best I can tell, the only point to it is to
lumber on and on and on and on and on and on and on. I *think* I made
it through one or two, but certainly don't care enough to try to
figure it out.
(I'm also no imporessed by any list by someone who feels compelled to
introduce it by rambling on about how much we need more diversity in
authors. No, what we need is more creativity and writing skill in
authors.)
Fortunately my eyes automatically skipped the intro and immediately
sought the topmost series in the list.
Although the phrase "virtue signal" was coined by a pundit whose
politics would probably leave me with indigestion, it's descriptive.
Foremost among the virtue signal's attributes is that it appears
virtuous. If nothing else, it usually cows a group of people enough to
discourage back talk.
Virtue signals are also cheap. The signaler just pays lip service to
the cause célÚbre of the day and leaves the grunt work of any meaningful
change to others.
Virtue signals are often stupid. Proclaiming that we need more
diversity when we need better stories is stupider than saying that
Rival snow maker machines need to come in more colors when they actually
need to shave ice better.
But! We need more diversity *and* better stories, and if we have
more adversity the odds are we'll get better stories, told from
different points of view.

I'm not sure we *need* snow-cones at all. This is not the same
as calling for their abolition.
Post by D B Davis
German voices probably lack the requisite diversity that our virtue
signaler, Drew, craves. Be that as it may, is there any well known SF
series with a corpus larger than _Perry Rhodan_?
Quantity does not equal quality.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/
David DeLaney
2018-09-28 23:27:00 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
But! We need more diversity *and* better stories, and if we have
more adversity the odds are we'll get better stories, told from
different points of view.
...I see it, that there, the thing that you did.

Dave, on the whole I believe you may be correct; certainly being Taylor Hebert
is suffering
--
\/David DeLaney posting thru EarthLink - "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
my gatekeeper archives are no longer accessible :( / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.
D B Davis
2018-09-29 00:22:31 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by D B Davis
Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
Post by Lynn McGuire
"The 10 Best Completed SF and Fantasy Series (According to Me)"
by Drew McCaffrey
https://www.tor.com/2018/09/25/the-10-best-completed-sf-and-fanta
sy-series-according-to-me/
Wow, I have only read two of these, the Harry Potter and the Ender series.
You'ven ever read Lord of the Ring?
I haven't even hear of half of them.
I have read Harry Potter and the Black Company stuff (though I don't
rememvber much of the latter; it's been a *long* time.)
As for the Gap series, yeah, I read the first book, and . . . never
again. I find no entertainment value in the books where the most
sympathetic character is the mass murdering, psychotic, sadistic
space pirate with no redeeming qualities whatsoever.
And the Wheel of Time stuff . . . lumbers on and on and on and on and
on and on and on, and, as best I can tell, the only point to it is to
lumber on and on and on and on and on and on and on. I *think* I made
it through one or two, but certainly don't care enough to try to
figure it out.
(I'm also no imporessed by any list by someone who feels compelled to
introduce it by rambling on about how much we need more diversity in
authors. No, what we need is more creativity and writing skill in
authors.)
Fortunately my eyes automatically skipped the intro and immediately
sought the topmost series in the list.
Although the phrase "virtue signal" was coined by a pundit whose
politics would probably leave me with indigestion, it's descriptive.
Foremost among the virtue signal's attributes is that it appears
virtuous. If nothing else, it usually cows a group of people enough to
discourage back talk.
Virtue signals are also cheap. The signaler just pays lip service to
the cause c??l??bre of the day and leaves the grunt work of any meaningful
change to others.
Virtue signals are also cheap. The signaler just pays lip service to
the cause c??l??bre of the day and leaves the grunt work of any meaningful
change to others.
Virtue signals are often stupid. Proclaiming that we need more
diversity when we need better stories is stupider than saying that
Rival snow maker machines need to come in more colors when they actually
need to shave ice better.
But! We need more diversity *and* better stories, and if we have
more adversity the odds are we'll get better stories, told from
different points of view.
I'm not sure we *need* snow-cones at all. This is not the same
as calling for their abolition.
Post by D B Davis
German voices probably lack the requisite diversity that our virtue
signaler, Drew, craves. Be that as it may, is there any well known SF
series with a corpus larger than _Perry Rhodan_?
Quantity does not equal quality.
For metaphor's sake! We certainly /do/ need snow cones.
So, my _Thrilling Tales_ with "The Albertine Notes" (Moody) arrives
in today's mail. My eyes are barely three pages into it before they
drift over to the fiction corner bookshelves, the new pine ones, packed
with _Perry Rhodan_. Next thing you know, down comes _Perry Rhodan #3_,
Ace's English translation "Atom-Alarm" und "Das Mutanten-Korps." :0)
Just one more quick fix to tide me over. Perry's more addictive than
Albertine.



Thank you,
--
Don
Robert Carnegie
2018-09-28 19:38:04 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by D B Davis
Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
Post by Lynn McGuire
"The 10 Best Completed SF and Fantasy Series (According to Me)"
by Drew McCaffrey
https://www.tor.com/2018/09/25/the-10-best-completed-sf-and-fanta
sy-series-according-to-me/
Wow, I have only read two of these, the Harry Potter and the Ender series.
You'ven ever read Lord of the Ring?
I haven't even hear of half of them.
I have read Harry Potter and the Black Company stuff (though I don't
rememvber much of the latter; it's been a *long* time.)
As for the Gap series, yeah, I read the first book, and . . . never
again. I find no entertainment value in the books where the most
sympathetic character is the mass murdering, psychotic, sadistic
space pirate with no redeeming qualities whatsoever.
And the Wheel of Time stuff . . . lumbers on and on and on and on and
on and on and on, and, as best I can tell, the only point to it is to
lumber on and on and on and on and on and on and on. I *think* I made
it through one or two, but certainly don't care enough to try to
figure it out.
(I'm also no imporessed by any list by someone who feels compelled to
introduce it by rambling on about how much we need more diversity in
authors. No, what we need is more creativity and writing skill in
authors.)
Fortunately my eyes automatically skipped the intro and immediately
sought the topmost series in the list.
Although the phrase "virtue signal" was coined by a pundit whose
politics would probably leave me with indigestion, it's descriptive.
Foremost among the virtue signal's attributes is that it appears
virtuous. If nothing else, it usually cows a group of people enough to
discourage back talk.
Virtue signals are also cheap. The signaler just pays lip service to
the cause célèbre of the day and leaves the grunt work of any meaningful
change to others.
Virtue signals are often stupid. Proclaiming that we need more
diversity when we need better stories is stupider than saying that
Rival snow maker machines need to come in more colors when they actually
need to shave ice better.
German voices probably lack the requisite diversity that our virtue
signaler, Drew, craves. Be that as it may, is there any well known SF
series with a corpus larger than _Perry Rhodan_?
I think you're over-interpreting. Drew's list
is almost entirely by deceased white Christian
males, and he or she is merely anticipating
comments on a limited diet, which is not
apologised for.

By the way, Drew isn't one of "those" McCaffreys,
I suppose? Because /there/ was a possible non-male pick.
Joe Bernstein
2018-10-01 17:55:38 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Robert Carnegie
Post by Lynn McGuire
"The 10 Best Completed SF and Fantasy Series (According to Me)"
by Drew McCaffrey
By the way, Drew isn't one of "those" McCaffreys,
I suppose? Because /there/ was a possible non-male pick.
Who knows? But it doesn't seem likely. Todd McCaffrey's real name,
under which he wrote for some years, is Johnson.

-- JLB
Alan Baker
2018-09-27 18:16:12 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Lynn McGuire
"The 10 Best Completed SF and Fantasy Series (According to Me)" by Drew
McCaffrey
https://www.tor.com/2018/09/25/the-10-best-completed-sf-and-fantasy-series-according-to-me/
Wow, I have only read two of these, the Harry Potter and the Ender series.
Lynn
Lord of the Rings
Harry Potter
Ender: only partially
Wheel of Time: never finished it and never will.
Greg Goss
2018-10-01 10:27:32 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Alan Baker
Post by Lynn McGuire
"The 10 Best Completed SF and Fantasy Series (According to Me)" by Drew
McCaffrey
https://www.tor.com/2018/09/25/the-10-best-completed-sf-and-fantasy-series-according-to-me/
Wow, I have only read two of these, the Harry Potter and the Ender series.
Lynn
Lord of the Rings
Harry Potter
Ender: only partially
Wheel of Time: never finished it and never will.
I loved Ender, both versions (never saw the movie). But I slogged
through Speaker (the only thing I remember was "blogs" and a fuzzy
incoherent memory of the alien attempt to hatch human memorial trees.

I can be OCD if the mood hits me. But I bounced off book three a
dozen or so pages in.

Much, much later, I read the Bean story. I found the opening
implausible, but made it past that. I never knew that there were all
those other stories in the series.
--
We are geeks. Resistance is voltage over current.
Dorothy J Heydt
2018-09-27 18:16:52 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Lynn McGuire
"The 10 Best Completed SF and Fantasy Series (According to Me)" by Drew
McCaffrey
https://www.tor.com/2018/09/25/the-10-best-completed-sf-and-fantasy-series-according-to-me/
Wow, I have only read two of these, the Harry Potter and the Ender series.
The only one I've read through is _The Lord of the Rings._ I
think I read one Ender book and 1.01 Wheel books before giving up
in disgust. I got as far as volume 4 of Harry Potter.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/
Alan Baker
2018-09-27 18:53:22 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Lynn McGuire
"The 10 Best Completed SF and Fantasy Series (According to Me)" by Drew
McCaffrey
https://www.tor.com/2018/09/25/the-10-best-completed-sf-and-fantasy-series-according-to-me/
Wow, I have only read two of these, the Harry Potter and the Ender series.
The only one I've read through is _The Lord of the Rings._ I
think I read one Ender book and 1.01 Wheel books before giving up
in disgust. I got as far as volume 4 of Harry Potter.
I thought the first couple of Wheel books were pretty good.

I mean, it was fairly obvious that he was using tropes and themes from
pretty much every other fantasy series ever written, but it was
interesting to read the whole "all myths arise from this, the one true
story" approach.

It was when the story lines started to splinter into dozens of sub-plots
that I really couldn't take it any more.
David Johnston
2018-09-27 19:41:30 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Alan Baker
Post by Lynn McGuire
"The 10 Best Completed SF and Fantasy Series (According to Me)" by Drew
McCaffrey
https://www.tor.com/2018/09/25/the-10-best-completed-sf-and-fantasy-series-according-to-me/
Wow, I have only read two of these, the Harry Potter and the Ender series.
The only one I've read through is _The Lord of the Rings._  I
think I read one Ender book and 1.01 Wheel books before giving up
in disgust.  I got as far as volume 4 of Harry Potter.
I thought the first couple of Wheel books were pretty good.
I mean, it was fairly obvious that he was using tropes and themes from
pretty much every other fantasy series ever written, but it was
interesting to read the whole "all myths arise from this, the one true
story" approach.
It was when the story lines started to splinter into dozens of sub-plots
that I really couldn't take it any more.
So...much...spanking.
Alan Baker
2018-09-27 19:47:00 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by David Johnston
Post by Alan Baker
Post by Lynn McGuire
"The 10 Best Completed SF and Fantasy Series (According to Me)" by Drew
McCaffrey
https://www.tor.com/2018/09/25/the-10-best-completed-sf-and-fantasy-series-according-to-me/
Wow, I have only read two of these, the Harry Potter and the Ender series.
The only one I've read through is _The Lord of the Rings._  I
think I read one Ender book and 1.01 Wheel books before giving up
in disgust.  I got as far as volume 4 of Harry Potter.
I thought the first couple of Wheel books were pretty good.
I mean, it was fairly obvious that he was using tropes and themes from
pretty much every other fantasy series ever written, but it was
interesting to read the whole "all myths arise from this, the one true
story" approach.
It was when the story lines started to splinter into dozens of
sub-plots that I really couldn't take it any more.
So...much...spanking.
:-)
Dorothy J Heydt
2018-09-27 20:08:02 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Lynn McGuire
"The 10 Best Completed SF and Fantasy Series (According to Me)" by Drew
McCaffrey
https://www.tor.com/2018/09/25/the-10-best-completed-sf-and-fantasy-series-according-to-me/
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Lynn McGuire
Wow, I have only read two of these, the Harry Potter and the Ender series.
The only one I've read through is _The Lord of the Rings._ I
think I read one Ender book and 1.01 Wheel books before giving up
in disgust. I got as far as volume 4 of Harry Potter.
I thought the first couple of Wheel books were pretty good.
I bought the first four volumes, because I was going to be
working at a convention and having a lot of downtime between
questions. I read the first volume and said, "well, okay..."

And then I got into the second volume. Here is the hero, having
come into [relative, temporary] safety in the city, and he
*knows* that any day now the bad guys are going to arrive and
he's going to be toast, AND HE STAYS THERE. It's the kind of
story about which Mark Twain said all the characters should be
dropped down a well; and Marion Zimmer Bradley said they should
all be killed in an earthquake, and I used the Eight Deadly
Words.

And bundled up all four volumes and gave them to my niece, who
had a long train-trip ahead of her. I never asked whether she
read them.
--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/
Alan Baker
2018-09-27 20:37:30 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Lynn McGuire
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Lynn McGuire
"The 10 Best Completed SF and Fantasy Series (According to Me)" by Drew
McCaffrey
https://www.tor.com/2018/09/25/the-10-best-completed-sf-and-fantasy-series-according-to-me/
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Post by Lynn McGuire
Wow, I have only read two of these, the Harry Potter and the Ender series.
The only one I've read through is _The Lord of the Rings._ I
think I read one Ender book and 1.01 Wheel books before giving up
in disgust. I got as far as volume 4 of Harry Potter.
I thought the first couple of Wheel books were pretty good.
I bought the first four volumes, because I was going to be
working at a convention and having a lot of downtime between
questions. I read the first volume and said, "well, okay..."
I had been forced by circumstance into spending an entire day at Calgary
airport, and so I picked the thickest piece of fantasy in the airport
bookstore.

It was a great choice for that day, anyway.

:-)
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
And then I got into the second volume. Here is the hero, having
come into [relative, temporary] safety in the city, and he
*knows* that any day now the bad guys are going to arrive and
he's going to be toast, AND HE STAYS THERE. It's the kind of
story about which Mark Twain said all the characters should be
dropped down a well; and Marion Zimmer Bradley said they should
all be killed in an earthquake, and I used the Eight Deadly
Words.
Oh, I get the Eight Words, believe me.

It's just that in the early going, he was telling a story that was fun
to read and that one could FOLLOW.
Post by Dorothy J Heydt
And bundled up all four volumes and gave them to my niece, who
had a long train-trip ahead of her. I never asked whether she
read them.
Default User
2018-09-28 00:09:28 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Lynn McGuire
"The 10 Best Completed SF and Fantasy Series (According to Me)" by
Drew McCaffrey
https://www.tor.com/2018/09/25/the-10-best-completed-sf-and-fantasy-series-according-to-me/
Post by Lynn McGuire
Wow, I have only read two of these, the Harry Potter and the Ender series.
That's a big 0 for me.


Brian
Moriarty
2018-09-28 00:49:02 UTC
Reply
Permalink
Post by Lynn McGuire
"The 10 Best Completed SF and Fantasy Series (According to Me)" by Drew
McCaffrey
https://www.tor.com/2018/09/25/the-10-best-completed-sf-and-fantasy-series-according-to-me/
Wow, I have only read two of these, the Harry Potter and the Ender series.
Let's see:

10 The David Farland series. Read the first one, can't remember much about it, and never bothered with the sequels.

9 Harry Potter. Read them, loved them and recently re-read the entire series back to back.

8 Never read it, but I've been meaning to give Brandon Sanderson a try.

7 LOTR. Read for the first time aged 9 and have re-read multiple times since. Probably time for another dip.

6 Ender's Game and sequels. The first two were great, the third mediocre, and the fourth so mind-numbingly BAD that I've never touched OSC since.

5 Never heard of it.

4 Stephen Donaldson's Gap series. No, just no. I loved all three Covenant series and Mordant's Need, but the first Gap book sucked so badly I never picked up another.

3 Gene Wolfe's Book of the New Sun. I think this is a polarising one: love it or don't. I got about halfway through the second one, realised I no longer had any idea what was supposed to be going on and didn't care. Yes, he's a master of language but I insist on a semi-coherent plot. I haven't ever tried Dhalgren or Finnegans Wake for similar reasons.

2 The Black Company. I enjoyed the first three. I'll probably get around to more one of these years.

1 The Flat Tire of Time. Started out well, peaked at book 5, had a CMOA to finish book 6, and then just meandered along with the author having no intention of finishing it. I got up to (I think) book 9 and meant to pick it up again when/if the series finished, as I wanted to see how it finished. But I never got around to it.

-Moriarty
Greg Goss
2018-10-01 10:34:17 UTC
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Post by Moriarty
9 Harry Potter. Read them, loved them and recently re-read the entire series back to back.
The final book turned into a slog for me. I've re-read several other
serieses a couple of times since then, so it may be time for a reread,
but even the ones I enjoyed aren't calling to me.
Post by Moriarty
7 LOTR. Read for the first time aged 9 and have re-read multiple times since. Probably time for another dip.
Bounced off of it in my forties. Never was much of a fantasy reader,
though I find some I like.
Post by Moriarty
6 Ender's Game and sequels. The first two were great, the third mediocre, and the fourth so mind-numbingly BAD that I've never touched OSC since.
Read the novella and the book of #1, and loved both. Slogged through
Speaker and bounced off of the third.
Post by Moriarty
4 Stephen Donaldson's Gap series. No, just no. I loved all three Covenant series and Mordant's Need, but the first Gap book sucked so badly I never picked up another.
Bounced hard off Donaldson. Drop it into a word processor and tell it
to remove 2/3 of the adjectves and it might be readable.
Post by Moriarty
3 Gene Wolfe's Book of the New Sun. I think this is a polarising one: love it or don't. I got about halfway through the second one, realised I no longer had any idea what was supposed to be going on and didn't care. Yes, he's a master of language but I insist on a semi-coherent plot. I haven't ever tried Dhalgren or Finnegans Wake for similar reasons.
I don't remember bouncing, but it's dated in my "read absolutely
everything" and I have no memory of it.
--
We are geeks. Resistance is voltage over current.
Ted Nolan <tednolan>
2018-10-01 17:02:27 UTC
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Post by Moriarty
Post by Moriarty
9 Harry Potter. Read them, loved them and recently re-read the entire
series back to back.
The final book turned into a slog for me. I've re-read several other
serieses a couple of times since then, so it may be time for a reread,
but even the ones I enjoyed aren't calling to me.
The one where they were running around in the woods for
half the book? That part was boring, and an additional problem was
that apprently very interesting stuff was happening at Hogworts
with Neville & co and it was all off-screen.
--
------
columbiaclosings.com
What's not in Columbia anymore..
Joe Bernstein
2018-10-01 17:52:14 UTC
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Post by Moriarty
Post by Lynn McGuire
"The 10 Best Completed SF and Fantasy Series (According to Me)" by Drew
McCaffrey
https://www.tor.com/2018/09/25/the-10-best-completed-sf-and-fantasy-series-according-to-me/
Wow, I have only read two of these, the Harry Potter and the Ender
series
10 The David Farland series. Read the first one, can't remember
much about it, and never bothered with the sequels.
Come *again* ?

This obviously isn't a list by someone completely addicted to the new,
or LOTR wouldn't be on it, but, um, can anyone who's read these
explain to me how this trumps, for example, um, hmmm...

OK, maybe his logic is that it's hard to know when something is
completed. Most of the examples I want to name have had very
belated sequels, some by other hands - Harold Shea, Earthsea,
Foundation ... But still, this is just bizarre. It'd be like me
naming, oh, Darwath. (Except that's had belated sequels *too*.)

"Farland" is apparently still living. The latest book apparently
came out in 2015. The lister's faith that there won't be any
more is, um, touching.

Would The Dark Is Rising trump "Farland"? That, at least, hasn't had
any sequels, though Cooper is still living too.
Post by Moriarty
9 Harry Potter. Read them, loved them and recently re-read the
entire series back to back.
Read, watched all the movies, haven't re-read since to verify my
impression that the movies *haven't* wrecked my images from the books.
Post by Moriarty
8 Never read it, but I've been meaning to give Brandon Sanderson a try.
Haven't read any of his series yet, but have been meaning to try.
That said, which series is meant to be "completed", according to
our lister? English Wikipedia doesn't seem to know of any - the page
is *bedizened* with "forthcoming" and the like..
Post by Moriarty
7 LOTR. Read for the first time aged 9 and have re-read multiple
times since. Probably time for another dip.
I might've been older than that, but not much older. Re-read most of
what I recognise as Tolkien oh, several years ago, but in my current
book log, and I think again more recently.
Post by Moriarty
6 Ender's Game and sequels. The first two were great, the third
mediocre, and the fourth so mind-numbingly BAD that I've never
touched OSC since.
The series <Ender's Game>, <Speaker for the Dead>, "Gloriously Bright"
is good. I'd prefer not to be reminded of the three-book version of
that, and haven't been tempted to read further.

Wikipedia lists three forthcoming Ender books. What, pray tell, is
the standard here for "completed"? I naively assumed it meant
"completed", but that doesn't seem to be the case.
Post by Moriarty
5 Never heard of it.
?
Post by Moriarty
4 Stephen Donaldson's Gap series. No, just no. I loved all three
Covenant series and Mordant's Need, but the first Gap book sucked
so badly I never picked up another.
I loved the first Covenant series and Mordant's Need, and suspect the
second Covenant series isn't as problematic as I think it is, but
have never assembled the third, and never even tackled the Gap during
the years I owned it.
Post by Moriarty
3 Gene Wolfe's Book of the New Sun. I think this is a polarising
one: love it or don't. I got about halfway through the second one,
realised I no longer had any idea what was supposed to be going on
and didn't care. Yes, he's a master of language but I insist on a
semi-coherent plot. I haven't ever tried Dhalgren or Finnegans Wake
for similar reasons.
The plot is coherent, it just isn't even remotely obvious to someone
reading it for the first time.

I've never tried Joyce, but respected <Dhalgren> without loving it, a
lot. The Book of the New Sun, I loved. I used to own first editions
of at least one, maybe two. Sigh.
Post by Moriarty
2 The Black Company. I enjoyed the first three. I'll probably get
around to more one of these years.
I didn't like the first one, IIRC.

Wikipedia, citing a 2006 interview, says a book exists which has
never been published, but presumably still could be.
Post by Moriarty
1 The Flat Tire of Time. Started out well, peaked at book 5, had a
CMOA to finish book 6, and then just meandered along with the
author having no intention of finishing it. I got up to (I think)
book 9 and meant to pick it up again when/if the series finished,
as I wanted to see how it finished. But I never got around to it.
Naively, there shouldn't be much for me to reconstruct for my book
log from the theft of my first laptop in November 2012; after all,
I have everything up to August 2012, so that's just three months,
right?

The difficulty is that I actually forked my log in December 2011,
when I got the laptop. After that, things I read at home got logged
in subsidiary files at home, but things I read elsewhere got logged
in the main log files on the laptop.

What makes this difficulty overcomable is that just about all my bus
reading and such, for that year, was the first seven or so volumes of
The Wheel of Time.

So although I had mixed feelings as I read, I've had *very* fond
feelings about that series ever since the theft. It's the gigantic
doorstop that keeps the reconstruction door from closing.

Joe Bernstein
--
Joe Bernstein <***@gmail.com>
Lynn McGuire
2018-10-01 21:59:30 UTC
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On 10/1/2018 12:52 PM, Joe Bernstein wrote:
...
Post by Joe Bernstein
Post by Moriarty
6 Ender's Game and sequels. The first two were great, the third
mediocre, and the fourth so mind-numbingly BAD that I've never
touched OSC since.
The series <Ender's Game>, <Speaker for the Dead>, "Gloriously Bright"
is good. I'd prefer not to be reminded of the three-book version of
that, and haven't been tempted to read further.
Wikipedia lists three forthcoming Ender books. What, pray tell, is
the standard here for "completed"? I naively assumed it meant
"completed", but that doesn't seem to be the case.
...

The _Ender's Game_ books have been segmented into four series. The
first series is four books. The second series is what happened to the
kids of battle school featuring Bean, _Ender's Shadow_, 6 ? 7 ? 8 ?
books. The third series is the first and second encounters with the
Formics, 6 books of prequels, _Earth Unaware (The First Formic War Book
1)_. The fourth series, just started, is the about the children being
recruited for Battle School, _Children of the Fleet_.

Lynn
David Goldfarb
2018-10-03 05:24:40 UTC
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Post by Joe Bernstein
Post by Moriarty
8 Never read it, but I've been meaning to give Brandon Sanderson a try.
Haven't read any of his series yet, but have been meaning to try.
That said, which series is meant to be "completed", according to
our lister? English Wikipedia doesn't seem to know of any - the page
is *bedizened* with "forthcoming" and the like..
The first "Mistborn" trilogy: _The Final Empire_, _The Well of Ascension_,
_The Hero of Ages_. They tell a single story that doesn't just end,
it gets knotted up into a nice neat braid. Yes, there have been three
more books set on the same world (with something like seven more planned)
but that story is complete.
--
David Goldfarb |From the fortune cookie file:
***@gmail.com |"You think that is a secret, but it never has
***@ocf.berkeley.edu | been one."
Lynn McGuire
2018-10-01 21:29:15 UTC
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Post by Moriarty
Post by Lynn McGuire
"The 10 Best Completed SF and Fantasy Series (According to Me)" by Drew
McCaffrey
https://www.tor.com/2018/09/25/the-10-best-completed-sf-and-fantasy-series-according-to-me/
Wow, I have only read two of these, the Harry Potter and the Ender series.
10 The David Farland series. Read the first one, can't remember much about it, and never bothered with the sequels.
9 Harry Potter. Read them, loved them and recently re-read the entire series back to back.
8 Never read it, but I've been meaning to give Brandon Sanderson a try.
7 LOTR. Read for the first time aged 9 and have re-read multiple times since. Probably time for another dip.
6 Ender's Game and sequels. The first two were great, the third mediocre, and the fourth so mind-numbingly BAD that I've never touched OSC since.
5 Never heard of it.
4 Stephen Donaldson's Gap series. No, just no. I loved all three Covenant series and Mordant's Need, but the first Gap book sucked so badly I never picked up another.
3 Gene Wolfe's Book of the New Sun. I think this is a polarising one: love it or don't. I got about halfway through the second one, realised I no longer had any idea what was supposed to be going on and didn't care. Yes, he's a master of language but I insist on a semi-coherent plot. I haven't ever tried Dhalgren or Finnegans Wake for similar reasons.
2 The Black Company. I enjoyed the first three. I'll probably get around to more one of these years.
1 The Flat Tire of Time. Started out well, peaked at book 5, had a CMOA to finish book 6, and then just meandered along with the author having no intention of finishing it. I got up to (I think) book 9 and meant to pick it up again when/if the series finished, as I wanted to see how it finished. But I never got around to it.
-Moriarty
I am thinking about reading the Harry Potter series again. It has been
almost a decade since I read them.

I have read about 17 or 18 of the Ender sequels and prequels. After
that many, who counts ? And I just got _Children of the Fleet_ which is
a parallel series to the original _Ender's Game_.
https://www.amazon.com/Children-Fleet-School-Orson-Scott/dp/0765377055/

Lynn
David DeLaney
2018-09-28 09:40:43 UTC
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Post by Lynn McGuire
"The 10 Best Completed SF and Fantasy Series (According to Me)" by Drew
McCaffrey
< https://www.tor.com/2018/09/25/the-10-best-completed-sf-and-fantasy-series
-according-to-me/ >
Post by Lynn McGuire
Wow, I have only read two of these, the Harry Potter and the Ender series.
One of them I have not read; another one I _will_ not read, ever (one guess).
And as a footnote there footnotes, Glen Cook's Black Company series just got
technically disqualified by a new book in it coming out, though it's an easrly
interquel, not a continuation.

Dave, rereading The Crippled God is also on my list
--
\/David DeLaney posting thru EarthLink - "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
my gatekeeper archives are no longer accessible :( / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.
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